[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Tom4ik]

Unless you are using Academy Ruins with EE deed is better. It hits more things in 1 go which is the big draw to deed. I play BUG and I still think deed is better than EE (I could use AR with it).

The threats that Decay/Deed do not hit are overblown. They certainly are there but they are not the majority. White has plow/path and Blue has counters/jace and all have pulse.

[Arianrhod]

Unless you are using Academy Ruins with EE deed is better. It hits more things in 1 go which is the big draw to deed. I play BUG and I still think deed is better than EE (I could use AR with it).

The threats that Decay/Deed do not hit are overblown. They certainly are there but they are not the majority. White has plow/path and Blue has counters/jace and all have pulse.

This is what I'm saying. Previous eras of NicFit-dom have completely eschewed spot removal in order to increase bomb density, and leaned entirely upon Deed because at the time, we could. All I'm getting at is that in this world we currently live in, we can no longer afford that luxury. Every color, every version needs a couple of hard removal spells now. It's not a -huge- deal, but we do need to be conscious of the space constraints that puts on us, as well as the fact that our games (which are typically super grindy already) are likely going to become even worse in that way -- which, in turn, pushes us towards the hardest of win conditions. 12post is still seeing some limited success in this metagame primarily because it caps at Emrakul into infinite turns, which is basically the biggest / most unstoppable / most inevitable you can go. We need a similarly inevitable / impossible to remove wincon if we are to succeed because we just don't have the slots anymore to whittle people down by throwing midrange bombs at them.

[maharis]

This guy is "up there" on my list of pet cards from Origins. I think this guy CAN work within Nic Fit, but Pod and/or a different shell makes the most sense. Within the GSZ shell, he more or less replaces slots of shit he will dig up. In pod he has the ability to show up to the party after Acidic Slime or Thragtusk. His tutoring either resets pod (find a 1 drop ---> pod into a 2cc, find a 2 drop ---> pod into a 3 cc, etc.) or he pods himself into a 7 drop. I don't know if a 7 drop is desired for Pod, but this gets you into Angel of Despair, Angel of Serenity, Avenger of Zendikar, Elesh Norn, Hornet Queen, Platinum Angel, Protean Hulk, and Rune-Scarred Demon territory. Or....Vizzerdrix. I like the empath --> Ulamog/boom booms concept also.

It's interesting how despite being a nice "glue" to Nic Fit (on-color, zenith target, laughs at Deed, plays with Pod, finds stuff in a deck that likes tutors, etc), he may not be "enough". I think it's possible but can't figure out how to build the list. Just thinking out loud and confirming some other thoughts.

I actually like this card, I just think the restrictions are silly. Like, is it really broken if I use this to get Glissa, the Traitor?

I even like it better than prime time unless we're playing Scapeshift (because primetime means you have to play wonky lands that can monkey with your openers). I just wish we could get something cooler. There aren't that many broken creatures at <=3 cmc in standard in any color, so giving us the ability to chain this into SFM or Image -> something else would've been a nice boost for formats where resolving a 6 cmc sorcery speed spell is a victory in itself.

I guess a green creature at any CMC could be problematic in standard though.

[Zombie]

I guess a green creature at any CMC could be problematic in standard though.

A 6/5 into a free Hornet Queen is insanely broken. In Legacy, well. Progenitus. Or Progenitor Mimic into Progenitor Mimic into Progenitor Mimic into Progenitor Mimic into Ruric Thar.

If the color restriction was lifted instead, you could chain Phantasmal Images into Teeg or a Meddling Mage on whatever can kill that much fat.

[lavafrogg]

The card is not good. It is casual/standard chaff. The Titans are much better and are already super expensive.

[jbone2016]

If we want to continue to play this deck in this metagame, we may need to take a long look at our sacred cow.

How viable is Deed in large numbers when many people are running things with 6 or 7 cmc (Angler/Tasigur/mandrills/etc)? Deed is, as ever, a good response to all of their little shit -- but at that point you need to also be running spot removal to clean up the big boys. We don't live in a Pernicious Deed-as-catchall world anymore, sadly.

As for Bellower:

It's a 6/5 with no evasion, protection, or anything OTHER than the fact that it brings a <=3-cmc green non-legend stapled to it.

Eternal Witness
KotR
Courser
Trygon Predator
Cold-Eye Selkie
Dauntless Escort
Sylvan Safekeeper
Reclamation Sage
Qasali Pridemage
Scavenging Ooze

I can't think of other useful cards at the moment, although I'm sure the list is much more exhaustive than this.

I will say this, though -- this list actually looks pretty restrictive so far. When I first saw the card I got pretty excited because I missed the word "green," and thought it just tutored any <=3 cmc nonlegend, which was fine -- grab TNN? Stoneforge? Sure! Forcing it to be green in addition to the other constraints is unfortunate.

It's something to keep in mind, and someone we should probably all acquire 1 copy of it to shove in our binders/boxes somewhere in case it ever becomes relevant, but I don't see it changing anything at this time, unless someone can dig up some hot tech that I'm not thinking of. And even then -- is it better than the other various 6-drops that exist? Doubtful.

Painter's servant. That is all.

[Countertoplol]

Painter's servant. That is all.

Play a card that's bad in the deck to capitalize on another card that's not even that powerful. Seems strong.

[pettdan]

Currently BUG Nic Fit playing vs Painter in the Scandinavian Open tournament series, round 6 of 6, first game lost while I'm trying to post this on my ancient laptop...

http://www.twitch.tv/svmtv

Edit: apparently the second game was a quick loss too, too much lag for me to see much of it except for t1 Deathrite, Painter plays SDT, t2 Thoughtseize revealed a Grindstone, REB/Pyroblast and 4 lands so it was looking pretty good for the Nic Fit player who also had a Liliana in hand.

[lavafrogg]

Why did NicFit pass on collective company? Seems super chain-able with eternal witness and could eventually dig up a win/con or just grind the opponent to dust.

[Echelon]

Just look at a random list and count the number of actual creatures with CMC <= 3. The number is far too low to support Collected Company.

[lavafrogg]

Just look at a random list and count the number of actual creatures with CMC <= 3. The number is far too low to support Collected Company.

It would be a new NicFit idea, or more importantly a new VeteranExplorer/Cabal Therapy Idea. Something like:

4 Eternal Witness
4 Veteran Explorer

3 Collective Company
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy

Instant speed lets the deck recover from sweepers and also allows us to hold up for removal/play around counters.

I am just wondering why a GBx creature deck didn't even consider the card.

[Echelon]

The Nic Fit 2.0 you're describing is Maverick, roughly.

It's Nic Fit without the strength to go over the top.

Decks don't touch it b/c it's a horrible card. It would have been borderline playable if either it looked at creatures with CMC <= 4 instead of 3 or of it let you look at the top 10 cards instead of 6. In its current state it does too little for the effort/dedication needed to pull it off.

[lavafrogg]

Edit: Moving this

That being said, I played my list from last week at this weeks local and had a great time going 3-1-1. It was a big switch from all of the Lands I have been practicing with, but I have tons of experience with GBx decks in the past.

The list:
Creatures(16)
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Dark Confidant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Primeval Titan
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Siege Rhino
1 Eternal Witness

Spells(22)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay

Lands(22)
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
3 bayou
2 savannah
1 scrubland
3 forest
2 swamp
1 plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard(15)
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Path to Exile
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 rest in peace
2 surgical extraction
3 choke

Round 1 BUG Delver W 2-0
I drew tons of basics and resolved a Veteran Explorer for profit both games. Lilliana shut the game down quickly and top kept my "hand" relevant.

Round 2 Miracles Draw 1-1-1
All 3 games went long. I would have won game 3 as I had an eternal witness/pernicious deed soft lock and would have switched to thragtusk, but I could not draw him in time to get the kill. I think I could have left 1 Veteran explorer in to power through the point in the game where I don't have much to do. Jace was also surgically extracted game 3.

Round 3 UWr Stoneforge W 2-1
Seige Rhino/Courser were MVP's of this one as swords were blown on Confidants and Explorers early and bolts could not take down the fatties. Hymn also made an early appearance game 2.

Round 4 Omnitel L 2-1
I just did not draw enough relevant cards to make anything happen game 1. An early Bob game 2 drew enough gas to hold him down with therapies and hymns but game 3 a canonist was the only thing i could find to try and slow the search, he had the combo in hand and show and told me turn 3.

Round 5 Elves W 2-0
Green Sun into Teeg early both games was enough to seal the deal. He had a value glimpse both games but could not draw enough with Teeg in play.

Super fun! I will work on the list more and I might have to slip back into the junk forum for a little bit.

[jbone2016]

So what do people think about watered down version of survival?

[Memories of the Time]

Made a 3-1-1 in a local last sunday with BUG Pod. Lose against UWR mentor (drawn all the lands, g2 keep swamp-sea-strix-ooze-veteran-vendilion... never found the third land), won against MentorMiracle, Miracle, Tezzeretor and 1-1 against Lands by my mistake, horribly.

[pettdan]

So what do people think about watered down version of survival?

Hard to say, but I'll try with a few comments. Not quite thought through yet.

Could be quite good with Explorer, Witness, Finks, Huntmaster and any token producer (Souls, Mentor, Garruk, Elspeth), providing card advantage at most activations. Which seems powerful.

It's destroyed by deed similarly to Sylvan, and doesn't filter for lands or removal. So you'll still want some Tops. On the other hand once you have lands you often want to draw your creatures and it's good at that, getting value along the way. You may be able to chain through a large part of your creature base over a few turns, especially due to Explorers. But you need to build for it with a few more cheap creatures and CIP effects. And even though you can't tutor for bullets it increases chances of finding them.

It's like a Pod without CMC limitations, random selection and not putting things into play. It means you need to keep low CMC's to make it better than Pod. Or play it with GSZ's and 8 basics, setting all exporers off more often while chaining for the larger beasts.

It does offer fast graveyard filling so Recurring Nightmare could be good next to it. Or maybe next to Living Wish [edit: Living Death] with Oozes and Deathrites..

[Arianrhod]

Hard to say, but I'll try with a few comments. Not quite thought through yet.

Could be quite good with Explorer, Witness, Finks, Huntmaster and any token producer (Souls, Mentor, Garruk, Elspeth), providing card advantage at most activations. Which seems powerful.

It's destroyed by deed similarly to Sylvan, and doesn't filter for lands or removal. So you'll still want some Tops. On the other hand once you have lands you often want to draw your creatures and it's good at that, getting value along the way. You may be able to chain through a large part of your creature base over a few turns, especially due to Explorers. But you need to build for it with a few more cheap creatures and CIP effects. And even though you can't tutor for bullets it increases chances of finding them.

It's like a Pod without CMC limitations, random selection and not putting things into play. It means you need to keep low CMC's to make it better than Pod. Or play it with GSZ's and 8 basics, setting all exporers off more often while chaining for the larger beasts.

It does offer fast graveyard filling so Recurring Nightmare could be good next to it. Or maybe next to Living Wish with Oozes and Deathrites..

If you run that card, you probably switch from running Deeds to running Damnations or Deluges instead, and round out with possibly 2 maindeck artifact/enchantment kill guys to compensate for losing Deed.

[Echelon]

It's doesn't net you any advantage. I don't see a reason to play it. G, sacrifice a creature: Draw the first creature card to come along. Seriously?

The problem with the card is that you have to play/resolve your creature cards before you can recycle them for a random critter. That's a rather big investment. Sure, it's cute when you use it in response to your opponents' removal, but how often will that come up?

Also, concerning token producers - why not just smash face with said tokens rather then durdle about?

[Fatal]

I was thinking about Evolutionary Leap and Veteran Explorer synergy.
http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/evolutionary-leap/

I case when deck running only Veteran Explorers as a creature we have combo which fetch 8 basics in one turn, which can't be broken by removal (only permission or enchantment removal).

Let take some scenerio:
Turn 1 - SDT/Discard/Cantrip
Turn 2 - Evolutionary Leap
Turn 3 - Explorer/GSZ + mana for use
Turn 4 - We have about 10+ mana available and great CQ in deck after fetching so many lands.

deck restriction - no other creatures in deck so basically deck should be focused on plainswalkers as wincon which isn't bad.

[Echelon]

Scapeshift on steroids?

[MD.Ghost]

Scapeshift on steroids?

This! and Walkers (and we can use the biggest with 10+ Mana ^^) and after the Explorers are gone, Deed is also ok, because Evolutionary Leap isn't needed anymore. Without Scapeshift (or without black...which means RUG :eek:) you can also go the Walker Route and build a BUG Shell with the Engine, which also enable Counter Magic and Cantrips. Sounds absurd :cool:

[UseLess]

Minor note, it can only fetch 8 forests in one turn, which is significantly less attractive if you start running three or even two colors. Both the activation and casting the new explorer cost G, so I wouldn't call it a one-turn "combo".

[Bobmans]

http://cdn.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Evolutionary-Leap.png

I am currently thinking of something more alike R/G (JUND) Beats. Flametongue Kavu, Huntmaster of the Fells. Something in lines of JUND. The nice thing about the card is that it makes your creatures dodge your opponents removal. All it needs is have some solid ETB creatures and silver bullets. Packing Sensei's Divining Top and maybe even a couple of Worldly Tutor to put those silver bullets on top. Magus of the Moon on request vs lands. Sign me up. I am going to crack this card is some awesome build. Heck maybe i'll even jam in some Tarmogoyf's. Bloodbraid Elf would work to here. Or Bloodghast to be able to keep the loop going. Just some unorganised thoughts here. But i will be on this for sure.

Edit: hmm, on the other hand going for Worldly Tutor to put creatures on top so you can draw them with E.Leap is a bit awkward. Still i would love to jam a Master of Cruelties to the table. First Strike and Deathtouch. Plus unblocked puts your oppenent at zap range for Punishing Fire or Lightning Bolt.
Also the card dodges Rest in Piece since it does not require a graveyard. Offcourse cards like Recurring Nightmare make it better.

[Echelon]

Minor note, it can only fetch 8 forests in one turn, which is significantly less attractive if you start running three or even two colors. Both the activation and casting the new explorer cost G, so I wouldn't call it a one-turn "combo".

Hence Scapeshift :wink:. That, at least, is on-colour.

@Bobmans: You have read that the card goes to your hand, right? You're describing scenario's where you'd need 5 mana+ to tutor for a Magus of the Moon and so on. That's just too slow to be viable.

Also, why Worldy Tutor + sac a creature to draw a creature when you can also run Brainstorm/Ponder..? Seriously...

[Bobmans]

Hence Scapeshift :wink:. That, at least, is on-colour.

@Bobmans: You have read that the card goes to your hand, right? You're describing scenario's where you'd need 5 mana+ to tutor for a Magus of the Moon and so on. That's just too slow to be viable.

Also, why Worldy Tutor + sac a creature to draw a creature when you can also run Brainstorm/Ponder..? Seriously...

Well, not running blue is where i would like to be. JUND is where i specifically want to be at. I do not care to look for the best, i want to make the best out of something i like.

It's core would still be similar as current NicFit lists, ramping is key here. Offcourse i have read the card. It puts the shit in hand. Already revised on the Tutor tech. The mana curve would be lower, but it would be a "bigger" variant then regular JUND. Kinda like RG Survival was back then. Still i am exploring posibilities, but i really want to prevent the deck from going blue cantrip circus.

[Barook]

I was thinking about Evolutionary Leap and Veteran Explorer synergy.
http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/evolutionary-leap/

I case when deck running only Veteran Explorers as a creature we have combo which fetch 8 basics in one turn, which can't be broken by removal (only permission or enchantment removal).

Let take some scenerio:
Turn 1 - SDT/Discard/Cantrip
Turn 2 - Evolutionary Leap
Turn 3 - Explorer/GSZ + mana for use
Turn 4 - We have about 10+ mana available and great CQ in deck after fetching so many lands.

deck restriction - no other creatures in deck so basically deck should be focused on plainswalkers as wincon which isn't bad.
Why not run GSZ (for more consistent Explorers) and a few mana-heavy GSZ bombs, probably with some quality token producers to feed the Leap? I don't think you need to chain an absurd amounts of forests to get value out of the combo.

Some kind of Walker Superfriends deck might be workable, too, especially the token-producing ones.

[Fatal]

First list Scapeshift on Steroids:

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Evolutionary Leap - New Survival
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Scapeshift
4 Burning Wish
4 Force of Will
4 Dig Through Time
4 Lightning Bolt
7 Forest
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Taiga
3 Volcanic Island
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 1 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Overmaster
SB: 1 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Firespout
SB: 2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
SB: 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Gaze of Granite

First 20 hands played - GSZ MD would be good - but there is a problem with blue cards count.

DTT works great here since combing out feed your greaveyard with extra 4 cards (4 explorers)

[Memories of the Time]

@Fatal: too few Mountains i think

[firebadmattgood]

First list Scapeshift on Steroids:

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Evolutionary Leap - New Survival
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Scapeshift
4 Burning Wish
4 Force of Will
4 Dig Through Time
4 Lightning Bolt
7 Forest
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Taiga
3 Volcanic Island
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 1 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Overmaster
SB: 1 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Firespout
SB: 2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
SB: 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Gaze of Granite

First 20 hands played - GSZ MD would be good - but there is a problem with blue cards count.

DTT works great here since combing out feed your greaveyard with extra 4 cards (4 explorers)

6 is way too few mountains. If you happen to draw a single one, you now can't scapeshift until you find a brainstorm to put it back. It also means you can only cast bolt or wish off of a Valakut.

[Ganfar]

4 color Shapeshift seems greedy.

[Fatal]

Actually you need to find 4 mountain x 2 Val -> 24 dmg (2 can be in play) . Tested land configuration and with so many cantrips I didnt had problems with card selection. Anyway to minimalize risk with wastelands/sinkholes (who play it ?!) better add 1.

Anyway I found this deck is... slow, sure it's very stable with protection and CA (DTT) which isn't normally in combo decks. It can be compared to OmniTell since you also need two cards:
Explorer and R. Leap, but... you also need more mana - 1G for Leap, then 1 for Explorer and 1 more for activation, what is much worst compared to OmniTell - you doesn't win after, you need to Dig/Burning Wish/natural draw Scapeshift and more over cast it for 2GG.

In Sum to combo out you need:
3 key cards - Explorer, R. Leap, Scapeshift
Resources - 1G, G, G, 2GG.

It's just slow you can't combo out before turn 4 which is sometimes slower then Elves, sure you have a lot of tools, additional you running removal, but I don't think it can compete with Tier 1 decks.

Mana engine also require running at least 7 basic forest with is quite huge drawback - opening game with forest only lands isn't good unless we rebuild deck for mono-green one.
Scapeshift require at least 6-7 mountains, which restrict a lot manabase.

I'm off this project It won't work.

[Barook]

I didn't saw the appeal of running a pure Scapeshift deck anyway.

Why not run Leap normally and just sometimes get nut draws with Explorer? Maybe even Academy Rector to fetch Leap/Recurring Nightmare to get your engines going? Trying to build around combo-hyperramp sounds like a "danger of cool things"-case, as awesome as it might be.

[Echelon]

I didn't saw the appeal of running a pure Scapeshift deck anyway.

Why not run Leap normally and just sometimes get nut draws with Explorer? Maybe even Academy Rector to fetch Leap/Recurring Nightmare to get your engines going? Trying to build around combo-hyperramp sounds like a "danger of cool things"-case, as awesome as it might be.

Probably for the same reason we don't run Birthing Pod. It's too slow, durdles too much and just doesn't propel you forward enough.

[firebadmattgood]

Actually you need to find 4 mountain x 2 Val -> 24 dmg (2 can be in play) .


Read Valakut. If there aren't at least 6 mountains in play, you get zero triggers.

[Richard Cheese]

Probably for the same reason we don't run Birthing Pod. It's too slow, durdles too much and just doesn't propel you forward enough.

There are a few important differences though. Leap is cheaper to cast, activates at instant speed, and can be used multiple times per turn. The obvious downside is that you don't get to choose what you get, and it goes to your hand rather than into play. It's also pretty horrible in multiples, but not really worth running at 1-2 copies. Anyway, the only reason Pod isn't horrible in multiples is because of the tapping and timing restrictions. Leap at least seems worth testing.

[Anarky87]

Read Valakut. If there aren't at least 6 mountains in play, you get zero triggers.

He's saying if you have 6 mountains total, 2 of which are in play, then you can Scape for 4 mountains and 2 Valakuts, which will deal 24 damage. When the 4 mountains come into play, each one will see 5 other mountains, so the triggers will go off.

[jrw1985]

Running duals to trigger Valakut seems pretty weak to Wasteland. Valakut only deals damage if there are at least 5 other mountains in play. So all your opponent has to do is Waste the dual mountain that will be the first Valakut trigger to resolve and the rest of the triggers will fizzle. So you Scapeshift for 6 mountains and a Valakut, you Waste the first to resolve, take 3 damage, and the other five triggers fizzle because there are no longer 5 other mountains in play.

"Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle's triggered ability has an "intervening 'if' clause." That means (1) the ability won't trigger at all unless, at the time a Mountain enters the battlefield under your control, you control five or more Mountains other than that new one, and (2) the ability will do nothing if you control fewer than five Mountains other than that new one by the time it resolves."

[Bobmans]

Running duals to trigger Valakut seems pretty weak to Wasteland. Valakut only deals damage if there are at least 5 other mountains in play. So all your opponent has to do is Waste the dual mountain that will be the first Valakut trigger to resolve and the rest of the triggers will fizzle. So you Scapeshift for 6 mountains and a Valakut, you Waste the first to resolve, take 3 damage, and the other five triggers fizzle because there are no longer 5 other mountains in play.

"Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle's triggered ability has an "intervening 'if' clause." That means (1) the ability won't trigger at all unless, at the time a Mountain enters the battlefield under your control, you control five or more Mountains other than that new one, and (2) the ability will do nothing if you control fewer than five Mountains other than that new one by the time it resolves."
Yes, one would be stupid to play Scapeshift right into an untapped Wasteland and not taking that into account.

[firebadmattgood]

He's saying if you have 6 mountains total, 2 of which are in play, then you can Scape for 4 mountains and 2 Valakuts, which will deal 24 damage. When the 4 mountains come into play, each one will see 5 other mountains, so the triggers will go off.

Derp, thanks.

[Gruby]

Hi. Need SB advice. Long time no see any tournaments but in july I'll go to one. Here's my Pfire list:
Creatures:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Primeval Titan
1 Free slot

Planeswalkers:
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vraska the Unseen

Spells:
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei’s Divinig Top
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Slaughter Games

Lands:
4 Grove of The Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig Wolf Run

Looks quite typical ;) 1 creature slot is free (don't have thrun, courser not even a thragtusk ;p) second bayou eventually will be, a overgrown tomb (or better to stay with 3 swamps)

Last time meta was:
2 reanimators
1 miracles
3 delvers (RUG BUG RUB)
1 Omnitell
1 Dark depths combo
1 Dn'T

I think about
3 carpets (still need to buy ;p)
3 Duress
2 nihil spellbomb
1 golgari charm
4 reb

that gives 2 free slot

help plx ;)

[uncletiggy]

I think you're all falling for the too cute solves no problems conundrum. Evolutionary leap solves no problem the deck has and only constrains the way you build nic fit. The deck doesnt need anymore turn four help which is all it really does, so you can play a huge non creature spell ie 7-10 up to two turns earlier. Aside from scapewish no varient gains anything and scapewish gives up a lot of constancy and tutor options to cut zenith and all creatures for a two card combo that ramps, it doesn't actually win it doesn't speed up your clock and it doesnt fix combo matches. Walkerfit is the only thing I can see gaining from the card and I don't think its enough without doubling season and rector. I wish I was wrong and would love to be proved as such. If someone can show me why playing a turn two evolutionary leap is better then jamming a stoneforge or zenith> explorer > therapy is better in anygiven matchup im all ears. We're playing legacy not magicalchristmasland.tcg

[Fatal]

Totally agree with @uncletiggy. It doesn't resolve any problems, it doesn't speed up enough so we don't see advantage to running it.

[thotcrime]

What's the status of Junk at the moment? I'm playing a legacy FNM and want to see what others have been doing. I'm wondering if Sylvan Safekeeper is worth a slot as its only real merit is being paired with Titania. I'd also like to show some planeswalker action, but is running just 1 enough? Elspeth, Garruk Relentless? Shit even Vraska could do work.
I'm considering cutting the 1 Recurring Nightmare as it rarely sees play, but it's so good with any number of my creatures.

I'm also wondering how you board against MUD? My listed SB can certainly be edited. I'm probably running too much GY hate anyway

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Seige Rhino
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Titania
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sigarda
1 Thragtusk
1 Eternal Witness

1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 GSZ
3 Top

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Plains

SB
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Leyline of Sanctitiy
2 Golgari Charm
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Gaddock Teeg

[lavafrogg]

What's the status of Junk at the moment? I'm playing a legacy FNM and want to see what others have been doing. I'm wondering if Sylvan Safekeeper is worth a slot as its only real merit is being paired with Titania. I'd also like to show some planeswalker action, but is running just 1 enough? Elspeth, Garruk Relentless? Shit even Vraska could do work.
I'm considering cutting the 1 Recurring Nightmare as it rarely sees play, but it's so good with any number of my creatures.

I'm also wondering how you board against MUD? My listed SB can certainly be edited. I'm probably running too much GY hate anyway

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Seige Rhino
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Titania
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sigarda
1 Thragtusk
1 Eternal Witness

1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 GSZ
3 Top

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Plains

SB
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Leyline of Sanctitiy
2 Golgari Charm
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Gaddock Teeg

Love the list,

against MUD all you really have to do is resolve a deed before they smokestack you to death. The deck really is not fast enough to compete. If they have forge master than even better because most lists play artifact lands as well.

[Ganfar]

Hi. Need SB advice. Long time no see any tournaments but in july I'll go to one. Here's my Pfire list:
Creatures:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Primeval Titan
1 Free slot

Planeswalkers:
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vraska the Unseen

Spells:
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei’s Divinig Top
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Slaughter Games

Lands:
4 Grove of The Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig Wolf Run

Looks quite typical ;) 1 creature slot is free (don't have thrun, courser not even a thragtusk ;p) second bayou eventually will be, a overgrown tomb (or better to stay with 3 swamps)

Last time meta was:
2 reanimators
1 miracles
3 delvers (RUG BUG RUB)
1 Omnitell
1 Dark depths combo
1 Dn'T

I think about
3 carpets (still need to buy ;p)
3 Duress
2 nihil spellbomb
1 golgari charm
4 reb

that gives 2 free slot

help plx ;)

There's lot of gravebase decks so a Extirpate or Surgical Extraction. Maybe can be good agansit omni-tell to remove show and tell or win cards.

Two Slaughter Games against combo. I don't think you need 4 reb, 3 is good.

[thotcrime]

Infinite Obliteration
1BB
Sorcery
Name a creature card. Search target opponent's graveyard, hand, and library for any number of cards with that name and exile them. Then that player shuffles his or her library.

Some juicy Show and Tell hate.

[uncletiggy]

If I was going to explore the power of evolutionary leap I'd begin with a creature package of 1-2 dryad arbor 4 explorers and 1-2 academy rectors with leaps over zeniths. Id go doubling season and walkers only lightly splashing white for plows rector and maybe elspeth suns champion maindeck.

[Arianrhod]

In light of GP Lille, pros have begun discussing (and have seemingly been in favor of) a Sensei's Top ban in legacy. I will not go into detail as to my thoughts on the matter, save to note that I do believe a ban is probably necessary and I do not believe that Top is the correct one (nor am I part of the Brainstorm hype train); I also will admit that Top is a card Wizards has expressed dislike existing in [formats] for a multitude of reasons, some of which I agree with and some of which I don't.

Considering this, it is prudent to note here that there is a decent (~40%, in my mind) chance that Top will be banned, regardless of the implications on the format.

Obviously, a potential Top ban is VERY serious for us. Even many blue versions typically run at least 1 copy (I rather like the 3-2 brainstorm-top split, personally). For the blue versions, there are many other card quality/filtering devices (or even just raw card draw) that can be used in lieu of Top. However, there is somewhere of a lack of decent replacements for Top for the white and red versions, and I would like to steer discussion away from a very silly card towards a much more serious topic.

------
Interlude: I have purposefully left out my thoughts on Evolutionary Leap up to this point, because I have nothing positive to contribute to the discussion at all. You're talking about dedicating 4 slots of your deck to something that you only ever want to draw 1 copy of, the entire game, which is then useless after 1 turn. In addition, you also cannot then run things like Cabal Therapy as backup engines because you no longer have the requisite creature density -- AND at the earliest, you can't "go off" with Leap until turn 3.

In no way, shape, or form do I feel this is a viable option in a traditional Nic Fit shell. If something like Vampiric Tutor is unbanned, for some godforsaken reason, you MIGHT be able to convince me to at least try it, because then you'd run 4 Vamp Tutors and 1 Leap, which would be okay. Enlightened Tutor is too many colors, before that is brought up.

I don't know. My bottom line is that it is possible that a Leap deck exists, and if it does, it almost assuredly revolves around Veteran Explorer (or its blue cousin, Noble Benefactor) because that interaction is actually pretty silly. However, I would suggest that this theoretical deck --

A: Does not exist at this time. Either card(s) have to be printed for it to exist, or banning/unbannings need to happen to make it viable.

B: Is out of our temporal budget. There is a limited amount of forum space/poster time to work with, with regards to making a discussion yield a deck, testing it, and tuning it. There is sufficient danger of a Top banning that I would rather see discussion turn towards what we do in event of this happening, because I do not wish to see the archetype just die.

C: Frankly, probably just isn't very good. Everyone who is like zomg turn 4 scaspeshift -- Scapewish can ALREADY do that. Admittedly infrequently, but it does happen. I've done it, as have others in this thread. Scapewish gets to run a much better backup plan and I would argue better protection, while running with a better mana base.

I am in no way trying to stifle anyone's creativity, nor stop people from working on Leap + Explorer. My humble suggestion would be to simply move your discussions elsewhere, so that both Nic Fit and Leaping Veterans (or whatever cutsie legacy deck name you want to assign it) can benefit from a purer, more focused discourse.

------

Back to Top talk.

As I see it, there are a couple of options in a world where Top is banned. Note that I am referring only to our internal consistency, not what will happen to the metagame.

A: Run more Tutors. More Diabolic Intents. Sidisi becomes a staple/core piece rather than a good bro. Grim Tutor is likely something we have to look into deeper at this point, as well as functional wishboards.

B: Run blue. It is entirely within the realm of reason that White and Red variants simply just die. Blue versions can adopt more of the cantrip shell and become part of the problem rather than the solution as we're used to being. I've not exactly kept it quiet that I've been working on Grixis Pyromancer (control variant) lately, and I can definitely say that the Therapy/Probe/Brainstorm/Ponder/Dig shell is pretty insane. What -exactly- that means blue lists end up engendering, I am not sure.

C: Run more hard card draw. I'm talking your Harmonizes here, people. Night's Whisper, perhaps, is better still.

D: Run 3+ Sylvan Libraries and move away from Deed, into Deluge/Damnation (complementing with naturalize bros and maindeck Decays across all versions).

E: Further explore some of the deviant Nic Fit ideas, like Veteran ANT or some kind of crazy beatdown shell.

F: Linear strategies encompassing tutoring/filtering inherently. I put your Birthing Pods and Collected Companies down under this category -- both are strategies that require a ton of dudes in your deck, so if instability strikes, you can frequently still cobble something together from the pile of creatures that you draw.

All of these are possible things that we should be looking into in the event that Top gets banned in a week.

[uncletiggy]

Options A and D seem the most favorable for preserving the decks identity. scroll rack might be worth adding to the list of possible avenues to take. Hopefully tho wizards is smart enough to know top is not the problem terminus and dtt are. Banning top kills miracles banning those two resets the format. They can always play supreme verdict or god forbid devastation tide.

[drfontaine]

Well i can only coment on the fact that some bannings definetly would be good for the format. Some change and diversity would eb refreshing. Although i think top most likely is too good of a card, it might not be wize to ban top, since it just as arhood is saying further limits nonblue decks in a format almost exclusively dominated by blue decks.

One of the main reason the format is so dominated by blue is ofc the lack of card selection from other colors, therefore banning top would make the situation even worse. Top besides miracles is a big reason decks like 12post, painter, nicfit, jund and to some extend non blue combo decks, just in general non blue decks which diversifies the format. However some restriction or nerf to the dominating miracles deck is imo definetly needed, not only cause its been so dominating but cause CB/TOP is just so amazingly boring to play vs.

Frankly i really hope they just ban counterbalance, imo its just as sad playing (once you've established the softlock) as it is facing.

Then dig through time is clearly way to good since it nullfies all other carddraw in the format, once again shutting down innovation and diversity. Why would anyone ever play say accumulated knowledge, thirst for knowledge or even meditate anymore when clearly DTT is superior in pretty much every occasion. In similair fashion as treasure cruise.

Deck creation concerning blue cards is just to restrictive, cause there is just way to many AUTO-INCLUDES, meaning every blue deck is pretty much the same except from some few exceptions. It's just so non-creative.

[Arianrhod]

Limit banlist discussion. I'm not interested in having a debate on that topic here, although it would be kind of refreshing in a way to have that discussion out from the main thread, as congested as it is with ... "opinions." Terminus is probably the real issue due to the pressure it exerts on creature decks, which then can't apply any of their own pressure to the format (there are more creatures in vintage than there are in legacy right now). We've all seen WotC's banning process, though, and I would presume they'll ban Top before Terminus, along the same lines of Vengevine before Survival.

The bigger issue, in my opinion, is that WotC just hates Top as a card. They had to ban the thing in Kamigawa standard for chrissake because it "made tournaments take too long." I personally barely glance at the cards I look at it when I spin...every now and then an actual decision has to be made and I need a couple of seconds to plan our my next couple of turns, but that's infrequent. The "time problem" with Top comes from the fact that an awful lot of people are either slower thinkers in general and/or aren't familiar with playing the card / the decks that run the card and thus the decisions that are required to be made. This is also not a solvable problem, really, which probably adds to WotC's distaste for it. In the hands of a capable player, Top is a powerful card which almost certainly takes less time off the match clock than fetchlands do. Unfortunately, you can't base decisions of if a card is tolerable time-wise on good player skill. You have to base around the average, and Top has always been a borderline offender there.

Scroll Rack is definitely an option. I would put that under the Sylvan Library pile, though -- powerful effects that die to our own Deeds. On the same token, it's possible that some sort of Howling Mine list is plausible, on the theory that we draw more/better cards than the opponent. It may be time for Phyrexian Arena to re-enter consideration, as well. Obviously the weakness there is to Abrupt Decay, and it could be better to just run Night's Whispers. Not sure. Sun Titan does bring Arena back if needed, so perhaps for white lists?

[Bobmans]

Currently the disappointment is great. What will happen or must happen on monday 13th we will see. SDT/DTT or not. Until then i will wait with selling/restocking my collection and continue from there. It's is either gonna be playing the awesome sweet decks i have been running now like NicFit or i will sell it all! And continue to play the deck that is nr1 in the meta. I am done for now what all this shit...

The only spark of hope left is seeing the 2 aggro loam decks and lands deck making top8 and learn what those decks where making the difference and ultimatly try to migitate that into a NicFit shell.

[Tom4ik]

As someone who plays Blue & Nicfit I actually wouldnt mind a Top banning, Miracles is a tough matchup game 1 so I am ok with that card being gone. I also think it would be productive for Nicfit because it mean more people play brainstorm in their high variance deck which is also a good thing.

If people refuse to do that I think it means we drop deed from a 3of and move to point click removal and 1/2 deluge. This allows sylvan library which I think it just better than arena. In fact I like Bob more than Arena. I think this is going to differentiate the builds more as you either you to be an aggro deck with the therapy disruption engine or play blue to get access to actual countermagic which is the issue with playing a non-blue control deck. you cant stop the top of their deck.

[thotcrime]

So what you're saying is: invest in Libraries, Scroll Racks, Diabolic Intents, Grim Tutors, hell Vampiric Tutors, and sell all my Tops. Let's do this.

I will be very fucking sad if SDT gets banned, it's one of the few things keeping JunkFit even a little relevant. These people are going to force me to play blue, which I can't afford, so I'll have to start running 4 Night's Whisper, 4 Deathrite Shaman to make up for the lifeloss. Doesn't sound that bad actually.

I'd much rather see Storm take a hit than Miracles IMO. We're very resilient to Terminus and Jace, if we play smart, but we're not very resilient to losing on turn 1. If they're going to hamstring a deck, they might as well spread the love.



I also wanted to say that we shouldn't write off Woodland Bellower, our new fuzzy 6/5 friend that tutors a 3cmc green creature. While it's not Primeval Titan, it can generate some serious value if we're grabbing Eternal Witness, Fierce Empath, QPM/Rec Sage, Sprouting Thrinax etc. when our games are going long. This thing allows 3-for-1 plays and can represent a 2 turn clock, that's right up my alley.
If you want to get cute, BUG people can grab Nulltread Gargantuan, put the Bellower on top of the library, then tutor again next turn. Also Shardless Agent.
You can get even cuter and grab Groundbreaker :X
Additionally, cards yet to be printed could break this thing. I'm going to grab one for the ol' NicFit Box of Possibilities (where I keep all my favorite Timmy cards).

[Arianrhod]

So what you're saying is: invest in Libraries, Scroll Racks, Diabolic Intents, Grim Tutors, hell Vampiric Tutors, and sell all my Tops. Let's do this.

All I'm saying is it would be wise of us to prepare for the -possibility-, not that we should run out and buy things or whatever. I'd prefer to have a rough idea of what to expect to want moving forward in a Topless world. Is Grim Tutor actually good enough? Is it possible to make a functional Living Wishboard for both white and red? What options exist?

That way, if and when something DOES happen, we know what steps we need to take and what exact cards we need to buy as opposed to running around like headless chickens trying to figure shit out while the speculators buy up everything.

[thotcrime]

All I'm saying is it would be wise of us to prepare for the -possibility-, not that we should run out and buy things or whatever. I'd prefer to have a rough idea of what to expect to want moving forward in a Topless world. Is Grim Tutor actually good enough? Is it possible to make a functional Living Wishboard for both white and red? What options exist?

That way, if and when something DOES happen, we know what steps we need to take and what exact cards we need to buy as opposed to running around like headless chickens trying to figure shit out while the speculators buy up everything.

I agree, and I think you have the right idea by going one of two ways:
1.) eschewing Deed for Deluge/Damnation to protect fancy filter cards like Sylvan Library and Scroll Rack
or
2.) replacing filter effects with raw card advantage and keeping Deed

I personally can't imagine playing NicFit without the Pernicious Monster, it can literally pull you ahead in seemingly unwinnable matches. I'd rather play 1 shot draw spells and increase threat density overall.

Arianrhod, what would your sample core look like for a Sidisi-based, post-SDT list?

[Warden]

I don't see SDT being banned. I see other stuff miracles/blue legacy decks run like DTT being the bigger threat. Terminus should just go away, but that's me.
I agree with what @Bobmans is saying overall about the aggro loam decks.

To the topic at hand, I would love to see some new Nic Fit/NO thing happen. Natural Order gives you the sac outlet + bomb/value bro all on color. I would make GSZ and NO the core of the deck but not go into the combo elves route. There's so much potential in a shell of veteran + cabal + gsz + NO.

@new cards: Haven't had enough time to sift through themall, let alone try new ideas.
@Sidisi, Undead Vizier -- why haven't I heard more about this card? Talk about making Nic Fit the legacy EDH deck

[Tom4ik]

Basing a list off of a 5 drop that basically requires another creature in play is not a recipe for a consistent deck. If we want to play a draw spell whisper is probably the best. Not playing bstorm and dig just to not play blue still seems wrong to me.

[Kanti]

All I'm saying is it would be wise of us to prepare for the -possibility-, not that we should run out and buy things or whatever. I'd prefer to have a rough idea of what to expect to want moving forward in a Topless world. Is Grim Tutor actually good enough? Is it possible to make a functional Living Wishboard for both white and red? What options exist?

That way, if and when something DOES happen, we know what steps we need to take and what exact cards we need to buy as opposed to running around like headless chickens trying to figure shit out while the speculators buy up everything.

A topless world would be great, really great actually. Imagine all those...

A world without Sensei's Divining Top legal in any constructed format, on the other hand? No, that won't happen. And damn, I think I found someone who hates speculators as much as me.

[maharis]

Have we considered Dark Petition? Can we put enough spells in the GY to make it work? It's basically a black Green Sun's Zenith for stuff costing BBB or less, and if we have extra mana, we can even go bigger. Seems nice paired with carpet of flowers, for example.

[Bobmans]

Just a thought here, i was looking into Skeletal Scrying. We have the mana and the cards to exile, but not always the life to pay for this to be big.

Also we have Diabolic Intent for quality.

In a list with Sun Titan, running both Deed and Sylvan Library should be fine. Also that list would contain a SFM package (simply because i find Siege Rhino as a card "dumb"). Jitte provides way more utility and acts as removal. Batterskull has vigilance/lifelink and is hard to get rid of. Making both better cards in different situations. Also both swords of Fire and Ice // Light and Shadow provide cardadvantage. You can justify running any combinatiom of equipment is fine.

Anyway i would opt for cardquality in NifFit decks over cardadvantage any day. So snap replacing 3x SDT would probably result in +2 Intent and +1 Sylvan Library, even with Deed.

Having thay said, i do not think it would solve issue's NicFit currently has in the metagame. We already get a step behind during the early turns. Also there are to many decks we have difficulty beating. One thing that is really powerful today is Wasteland + Life from the Loam. Those cards are the weakspot for the decks we have most trouble with. Also with cards like Sylvan Safekeeper and Titania we could be making a sifferent direction in terms of abusing our manabase and ramping capabilities.

[Echelon]

I also wanted to say that we shouldn't write off Woodland Bellower, our new fuzzy 6/5 friend that tutors a 3cmc green creature. While it's not Primeval Titan, it can generate some serious value if we're grabbing Eternal Witness, Fierce Empath, QPM/Rec Sage, Sprouting Thrinax etc. when our games are going long. This thing allows 3-for-1 plays and can represent a 2 turn clock, that's right up my alley.
If you want to get cute, BUG people can grab Nulltread Gargantuan, put the Bellower on top of the library, then tutor again next turn. Also Shardless Agent.
You can get even cuter and grab Groundbreaker :X
Additionally, cards yet to be printed could break this thing. I'm going to grab one for the ol' NicFit Box of Possibilities (where I keep all my favorite Timmy cards).

How about Woolly Thoctar? It's horribly off-colour and has no evasion/trample whatsoever, but dumping 11 power on the table for 6 mana sounds like good times.

@the making Nic Fit the Legacy EDH-deck: That's what my build is for, lol. Some of the highlights so far:
- Feeding a Summoner's Egg hiding an Emrakul to Phyrexian Tower and then hardcast Elesh Norn with mana open for Daze.
- Lock a burn player out with Iona and drop Emrakul the next turn.
- Having an opponent attacking me with a 4+ power creature while I have an Egg on the board and a couple of turns earlier revealed an Emrakul with Fierce Empath. Still lost that game because I was too greedy (should have gotten Elesh Norn to wipe most of his board), but still.
- Flashback Therapy naming StP (hit!), hardcast Blazing Archon (SB card). Opponent sadly looks at his Karakas.
- Hitting with Therapy 4 times in 2 turns (hitting FoW, 2 Hymn To Tourach, Jace the Mind Sculptor & Lilliana) and with the last flashback pop out Griselbrand from under the Egg. I had the f*ing nuts, Griselbrand popped out on turn 3.
- Forcing opponents to give me a Path to Exile with Tasigur, then take out the one creature they had left
- Having an opponent return me a Diabolic Intent with Tasigur, then the next turn proceed to cast DRS, Diabolic Intent, tutor for Rest In Peace and cast said card. Poor dredge player.

So much fun! It doesn't do well in tournaments, but it's so. much. fun! These are just the cool things and succes stories that happen though. For each of these games, there are at least twice as many "and then I almost got there" or bad beat stories :smile:.

[uncletiggy]

Also with cards like Sylvan Safekeeper and Titania we could be making a sifferent direction in terms of abusing our manabase and ramping capabilities.


Oddly enough I'm currently playing:

3 explorers
2 deathrite
1 safekeeper
1 teeg
1 scooze
1 courser
1 witness
2 kotr
2 titania
1 sigarda

4 therapy
2 exploration
3 tops
3 gsz
1 intent
2 plow
1 path
3 decay
1 g charn
2 deed

2 bayou
2 savannah
1 scrubland
3 verdant catacombs
1 windswept heath
3 forest
2 swamp
1 plains
4 wasteland
1 thespian stage
1 darkdepths
1 volraths tower
1 karakas
1 Dryad arbor

Sb
1 pithing needle
1 surgical extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 dryad militant
1 zealous persecution
1 decay
2 teeg
1 loam
1 pulse
1 o ring
1 grip
1 thrun
1 cataclysm

[Arianrhod]

Here's the issue: Top is secretly a split card.

Top has two different modes, depending on when you draw it in a game. Top is either a ~2 drop that emulates Ponder in that it fixes your next 2-3 turns of draws, or it is a ~5 drop that lets you combo spins and shuffles to "tutor" for bombs/answers that you need at that stage of the game. Between turn 2 and turn 5, we'll say as rough examples, you very rarely end up actually using Top. If you have it on turn 2 and spin, that's cool -- but you always have better things to do over the next several turns, rather than spinning that early Top.

We are not lacking in options for the Turn 5 Top half. Any number of card advantage engines exist at 4+ mana and are adequate to our needs. What we'll be missing instead is the Turn 2 Top half, and -that- is the huge hit. Natural Selection is a really awful alternative since it doesn't replace itself, but that's TYPE of card we need...something that can come down super early and help us assemble our early game. Realistically, I think that Night's Whisper is the best option for this -- it just means we're probably going to want to tilt a bit more towards life gain options. For white, this isn't an issue due to Baneslayer (and/or Thune) alongside the traditional Finks, ObBaloth, Tusk, etc.

Red versions are what I'm most worried about, to be honest. Something like Punishing really, really relies on Top to keep the card quality up over a long, attritiony match. Red versions may want to look into something like Chandra, Pyromaster as an option. Red has been getting a lot of these pseudo draw engines lately, and one of them may be good enough. Pyromaster is PROBABLY the closest I can think of right now -- she was excellent when Thragtusk was in standard, anyway...something to consider.

@Tom4ik -- Being beholden to play blue is not part of the agenda. Blue versions have not shown any kind of historical dominance, and a lot of people I know who play Nic Fit cannot afford blue cards because they got in too late and the floor was already too high. I'm not saying that I think that playing a nonblue deck is a budget alternative -- I've played an awful lot of white and red nic fits (as well as blue versions), and I very much enjoy putting the screws to blue players. There have been many periods throughout legacy the last couple of years where we've gained in market share and win% by virtue of NOT being blue and NOT having our shit get hit by Red Blasts.

Far be it from my intent to say that blue versions do not have their own advantages. They 100% do, and the advantages that they do have will only increase in potency if Top gets hit. But I vehemently disagree that we're to the point where the format dictates "be blue or be playing an inferior deck." An awful lot of people believe that, and it's simply not true. There are so many options -- no reason to sheep the masses.

I'll try to brew some potential lists tomorrow and get them posted. I've mostly been focused on tuning vintage and identifying standard for postrotation, but I'll be turning my attention more heavily to legacy for the next week or two.

[Bobmans]

Oddly enough I'm currently playing:

3 explorers
2 deathrite
1 safekeeper
1 teeg
1 scooze
1 courser
1 witness
2 kotr
2 titania
1 sigarda

4 therapy
2 exploration
3 tops
3 gsz
1 intent
2 plow
1 path
3 decay
1 g charn
2 deed

2 bayou
2 savannah
1 scrubland
3 verdant catacombs
1 windswept heath
3 forest
2 swamp
1 plains
4 wasteland
1 thespian stage
1 darkdepths
1 volraths tower
1 karakas
1 Dryad arbor

Sb
1 pithing needle
1 surgical extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 dryad militant
1 zealous persecution
1 decay
2 teeg
1 loam
1 pulse
1 o ring
1 grip
1 thrun
1 cataclysm
How does your list play and feel in the current meta? (If tested ofc)




Here's the issue: Top is secretly a split card.

We are not lacking in options for the Turn 5 Top half. Any number of card advantage engines exist at 4+ mana and are adequate to our needs. What we'll be missing instead is the Turn 2 Top half, and -that- is the huge hit. we need...something that can come down super early and help us assemble our early game.

Red versions are what I'm most worried about, to be honest. Something like Punishing really, really relies on Top to keep the card quality up over a long, attritiony match. Red versions may want to look into something like Chandra, Pyromaster as an option. Red has been getting a lot of these pseudo draw engines lately, and one of them may be good enough. Pyromaster is PROBABLY the closest I can think of right now -- she was excellent when Thragtusk was in standard, anyway...something to consider.


True that to Top. It does sooo much, but you probably nailed it, that it hurts most during the early turns not being able to draw what we want. A card to consider here is Mirri's Guile.
It drops on T1 and spin the top for free. Yes it dies to deed, but the point is it sling you to midgame and then we hopefully find enough/a new one.
Also theres a synergy between Mirris Guile, fetchland and Sylvan Library. Giving you reset top between Mirri and Library.
Also with the talk of removing Deed in any number Mirri becomes more valid. (Removing deed is still wrong i believe). A lot of times i was able to remove like Jitte, Thalia, Mom, Germ token, SoFaI and Revoker (on SDT). Actions like this can never be achieved with Abrupt Decay and Punishing Fire alone. Especially if our board only has SDT, Deed and a bunch of lands.

The problem i have with Chandra is that it costs 4 mana (2RR) and we want something during the early turns.

[Bobmans]

list
Sorry for the double post, but i felt that editing the previous one was not the better choice.

Tje list provided by UncleTiggy put me on this direction. Nice one Tiggy.
I had some thoughts on the lands heavy JUNK list. Rather I wanted it to be JUND, but Knight is such a sweet card and cannot be replaced in Jund and Karakas is probably better for a number of matchups. Also Path to Exile might be a better choice then Punishing Fire since it can hit the bigger creatures played by MUD or Gurmag and Tasigur, etc. On top of that, pushing 3 Groves would put to much strain on the manabase / numbers.

// 60 cards main:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse

2 Life from the Loam
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Diabolic Intent

2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Verdant Catacomb
3 Windswepth Heath
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland

//Lands to consider adding:
Horizon Canopy
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Treetop Village
Dryad Arbor

// 15 cards board:
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Choke
2 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle

//Sideboard considerations:
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Dryad Militant
3 Leyline of the Void

Also i would consider going to 61 cards maindeck to add one of the consideration lands. In this one i am leaning towards Horizon Canopy as an early color fix and lategame draw engine with Loam.

This list has the utility of Loam + Wasteland along with Knights to find land and get a beefy beater. Also, because Knight is CMC 3, i added Sun Titan as a recus engine and the famous Titan + Deed lock. Also Titan returns lands giving a possible 2 land per turn on the battlefield (Wasteland)

Basicly the SDT is replaced by Sylvan Library, Mirri's Guile and Diabolic Intent. They all work different and having multiples do not conflict or are dead. With fetchland (and loam) you can peek at the top 3 with Guile, shuffle and draw 3 new with Library. Also with a Canopy you could draw one from Mirri and reset cracking fetch before Library draws.

Another consideration might be Dryad Arbor. It gets fetched to chumpblock or as a fetchable sac for Intent. With Loam it will also be a recurring blocker (instead of Wasteland 4?)

[Ralf]

Sorry for the double post, but i felt that editing the previous one was not the better choice.

Tje list provided by UncleTiggy put me on this direction. Nice one Tiggy.
I had some thoughts on the lands heavy JUNK list. Rather I wanted it to be JUND, but Knight is such a sweet card and cannot be replaced in Jund and Karakas is probably better for a number of matchups. Also Path to Exile might be a better choice then Punishing Fire since it can hit the bigger creatures played by MUD or Gurmag and Tasigur, etc. On top of that, pushing 3 Groves would put to much strain on the manabase / numbers.

// 60 cards main:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse

2 Life from the Loam
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Diabolic Intent

2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Verdant Catacomb
3 Windswepth Heath
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland

//Lands to consider adding:
Horizon Canopy
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Treetop Village
Dryad Arbor

// 15 cards board:
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Choke
2 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle

//Sideboard considerations:
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Dryad Militant
3 Leyline of the Void

Also i would consider going to 61 cards maindeck to add one of the consideration lands. In this one i am leaning towards Horizon Canopy as an early color fix and lategame draw engine with Loam.

This list has the utility of Loam + Wasteland along with Knights to find land and get a beefy beater. Also, because Knight is CMC 3, i added Sun Titan as a recus engine and the famous Titan + Deed lock. Also Titan returns lands giving a possible 2 land per turn on the battlefield (Wasteland)

Basicly the SDT is replaced by Sylvan Library, Mirri's Guile and Diabolic Intent. They all work different and having multiples do not conflict or are dead. With fetchland (and loam) you can peek at the top 3 with Guile, shuffle and draw 3 new with Library. Also with a Canopy you could draw one from Mirri and reset cracking fetch before Library draws.

Another consideration might be Dryad Arbor. It gets fetched to chumpblock or as a fetchable sac for Intent. With Loam it will also be a recurring blocker (instead of Wasteland 4?)

Here are a few comments:

1) You might need another "real" life gain creature.
2) Phyrexian tower is a must have with Knight.
3) Crop rotation is better than 2nd loam
4) You should think about entomb as well
5) STP > PTE in this list.
6) You should assess whether Sun Titan is better than Dromoka dragonlord in such a list. Sun might be better G1. Dragon will be better G2 & G3.

I tested a lot this kind of deck (KotR + Titania + Safekeeper) with some minor tweaks. And you'll be punished for being too much grave oriented in G2 & G3.

[Ralf]

Since I'm most active in this thread:

Apologies to every reader, here, as I had planned to play Nic Fit @ GP Lille but I had to take a different route as one of my friend sneaked in at the very last moment and obviously he did not have any real paper deck with him.

So I had to dismantle Nic Fit to provide proper fetches, dual lands for everybody.

I played Imperial Tax @ the main event to a 4/3 drop. Bad pairings and a misplay in the 7th round prevent me from going further. That's what you get when you are not as familiar with a deck as you can be with your pet deck.

--> Quick report can be found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6775-DTB-Death-and-Taxes&p=891902&viewfull=1#post891902)

Anyway, I had great fun but did not get to meet Bobmans nor MD Ghost.
How did it go for you, guys ?

On the Legacy Sunday Serie, I have piloted a homebrew deck to an astonished 4/2/1 finish. I lost the final round against an American miracle player which was coming from N.J.

--> List can be found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?3451-Deck-Suicide-Black&p=891913&viewfull=1#post891913)


Here is the list I had planned to play for the GP:


2 Plains
3 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
3 Savannah
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

4 Veteran explorer
1 Sakura Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
3 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Acidic Slime
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Dragonlord Dromoka

3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Recurring nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Swords to Plowshare
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse

[Bobmans]

Here are a few comments:

1) You might need another "real" life gain creature.
2) Phyrexian tower is a must have with Knight.
3) Crop rotation is better than 2nd loam
4) You should think about entomb as well
5) STP > PTE in this list.
6) You should assess whether Sun Titan is better than Dromoka dragonlord in such a list. Sun might be better G1. Dragon will be better G2 & G3.

I tested a lot this kind of deck (KotR + Titania + Safekeeper) with some minor tweaks. And you'll be punished for being too much grave oriented in G2 & G3.

1. Agreed, Thragtusk or Dragonlord shouls fix this.
2. I am not really seeing the interaction your after here. Also with Intent i didnt want to have to much sac outlets. And already running 5 colorless mana. Also i think Stronghold is an important card.
3. Not sure yet. I see its application, but i am not sold.
4. Entomb for just Loam or a loam target? Also wouldnt Entomb make it even more grave dependent?
5. Could you elaborate? We already run 4 explorer so giving away basics shouldnt hinder at that point i feel.
6. I played Sun Titan and must say it was so incredibly powerful. Never landed a Dragonlord so i have no experience to compare those two. Only that i find Titan such and awesome card, but that doesnt say anything.

[MD.Ghost]

Anyway, I had great fun but did not get to meet Bobmans nor MD Ghost.
How did it go for you, guys ?


As i wrote at "Sylvan Plug":
I had some last minute family issuses and sadly cancelled my GP Lille trip... so sorry i missed our meeting this year! My plan was to battle all the blue.decs, because the last months of test games proved me to play Sylvan Plug (hey it also contains some nice & weird Stuff :wink: ) as the right weapon of choice at the GP (and i am glad, that another kind of chalice.dec: Aggro Loam do so well!).

I expect the Ban-Hammer next monday and i totally understand the discussion of: How can we play Nic Fit without Sensei's Divining Top?

[Ralf]

1. Agreed, Thragtusk or Dragonlord shouls fix this.
2. I am not really seeing the interaction your after here. Also with Intent i didnt want to have to much sac outlets. And already running 5 colorless mana. Also i think Stronghold is an important card.
3. Not sure yet. I see its application, but i am not sold.
4. Entomb for just Loam or a loam target? Also wouldnt Entomb make it even more grave dependent?
5. Could you elaborate? We already run 4 explorer so giving away basics shouldnt hinder at that point i feel.
6. I played Sun Titan and must say it was so incredibly powerful. Never landed a Dragonlord so i have no experience to compare those two. Only that i find Titan such and awesome card, but that doesnt say anything.

2. Phyrexian Tower protects your guys from being sworded/terminus. It also enables some outstanding T2 plays. A must have against miracle.
4. You just need 1 loam. If you have it in your hand, entomb will likely be more useful than the 2nd loam.
5. Yes, but you are not a midrange kind of deck (like rhino's list) even if you are playing 3 KotR. STP can also let you gain some life in some MU by swording your own creature

[Bobmans]

2. Phyrexian Tower protects your guys from being sworded/terminus. It also enables some outstanding T2 plays. A must have against miracle.
4. You just need 1 loam. If you have it in your hand, entomb will likely be more useful than the 2nd loam.
5. Yes, but you are not a midrange kind of deck (like rhino's list) even if you are playing 3 KotR. STP can also let you gain some life in some MU by swording your own creature

Hmm, good point on the tower, might replace the other tower. How much i like both, i do not think it works to have both with wasteland.
I played BUGStill with 1 LftL main and 4 Brainstorm, 4 Standstill and 2 DTT and still i felt like 1 was NOT the right nr. Must try it in this list tho. Still i feel that running either Crop or Entomb is subpar. If i drop it i will include a Thragtusk for it.
I can live with the PtE over StP bearing your arguments. For me the biggest drawback of Swords is giving away lifepoints on an already grindy game.

GP Lille, yes, it already feels like it was a month ago. We didn't had a meeting. Pity.
I brought my Punishing Stormbreath list and MUD. Played MUD on the main since it felt stronger, more suited for the meta and games do not last longer then 30 minutes. Played some trails and Day 1 going 2-3 drop. Played 3x BUG Delver in a row. A matchup i do not like with MUD. Should have played PFire instead!!!!!
Played some on demands on Sunday with PFire, but it was kinda meh. It was soo warm and i felt tired and lazy all weekend. I did got Michael Sutfin to sign and do a small artwork over my 3 Japanese SDT's in the Jund colors.

My travel partner, who played Death and Taxes also got 2-3, and i were pretty furious about how the current meta is. We decided to build a blue deck to beat blue decks (not joking there) until we saw Aggro Loam going so well.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/07/cc8c426592f74f2e99d3a1b026dc1b29.jpg

[Tom4ik]

@ Arianrhod - Then I would say we must agree to disagree here. I believe Brainstorm is by far a better card selection tool than anything else considering the amount of cards this deck can draw that become "dead" after a point and I also believe not playing DTT is wrong.

Unless or until the days of Rug delver vs Maverick as the top 2 decks come back this deck will struggle to find itself well positioned. I think you are right that the deck needs a turn 2/3 card advantage spell. Nights whisper is actually the cleanest answer we have. At 1 black it is very splashable in 3 colors (hence why it has even seen play in vintage as it is an easy turn 1/2 play with little mana investment). Playing Etutor package would also feel fine here with more raw card draw and library. I think this may be a way for white to up some % points in combo match ups. Running both GSZ and etutor does add mana to whatever you do but the flexibility and power of the cards should hopefully offset this.

It is very hard to guess what the meta game looks like before the announcement as I could see dig or top going or nothing. Brainstorm wont go but IF it did this deck would instantly become a lot better (non blue versions).

[Arianrhod]

@ Arianrhod - Then I would say we must agree to disagree here. I believe Brainstorm is by far a better card selection tool than anything else considering the amount of cards this deck can draw that become "dead" after a point and I also believe not playing DTT is wrong.

Unless or until the days of Rug delver vs Maverick as the top 2 decks come back this deck will struggle to find itself well positioned. I think you are right that the deck needs a turn 2/3 card advantage spell. Nights whisper is actually the cleanest answer we have. At 1 black it is very splashable in 3 colors (hence why it has even seen play in vintage as it is an easy turn 1/2 play with little mana investment). Playing Etutor package would also feel fine here with more raw card draw and library. I think this may be a way for white to up some % points in combo match ups. Running both GSZ and etutor does add mana to whatever you do but the flexibility and power of the cards should hopefully offset this.

It is very hard to guess what the meta game looks like before the announcement as I could see dig or top going or nothing. Brainstorm wont go but IF it did this deck would instantly become a lot better (non blue versions).

I'm fine with agree to disagree. I am going to run through my thought process in greater detail now that I'm awake, though. Feel free to poke holes, or not, either way is fine.

Here's where I take issue with this.

Veteran Explorers #3 and #4 and excess lands are the only real dead draws in a well built Nic Fit deck -- and even then, there are situations where these cards can be wanted. You can argue some game ones -- Decays vs TES, for example -- but those are fringier situations. A well-built Nic Fit list should not have more dead draws than this, and minimal card selection is required to solve this problem -- more is obviously good, because card selection, but I also don't think that going too deep on the cantrip shell is wise because you don't want to spend all of your time cantripping. You want, in fact, to punish those players who DO spend all of their time cantripping. Sure, you Brainstormed into Ponder into Ponder into Dig. You got it, boss -- you effectively resolved one spell, and that spell did not affect the board state.

I am not going to disagree that Brainstorm is the strongest card in its type -- possibly the strongest card in the format. I will also defend Brainstorm's existence, as with that of Force of Will, to my dying breath. Not because of power level, and not because of "legacy identity bullshit rabble rabble:" rather, because I remember what happened to vintage when they restricted Brainstorm, at least in the United States. There is a reason something like 80% of the world's Power supply moved overseas, and that's still correcting itself today. I enjoy legacy more often than I don't, and I don't want the format to literally implode on itself. If that means putting up with Brainstorm's bullshit, I can deal.

Now, to progress logically from there: If Brainstorm > all, why not Brainstorm?

I'm going to alter course slightly back into Nic Fit territory as opposed to core philosophy. Within the Nic Fit umbrella, there are a lot of different things one can do in different colors. We've expressed before in the thread varying strengths and weaknesses of the different colors. Let's focus on blue.

Pros:

You get to run Brainstorm.
You get to run [big draw here]. This can be Dig, Gifts, Fact or Fiction, Jace, any 3+ cmc that goes deep into your deck.
You get to run Jace (he deserves an extra line).
You get to run Consecrated Sphinx, which is probably the single most powerful 6-drop available.
You get to run Baleful Strix.
You -potentially- have a stronger combo plan than other colors, pending card choices.

Cons:

You end up spending roughly the same time durdling as the other colors despite having cantrips/draw, because cantrips inbreed (draw into more cantrips), with less impact on board.
You play squarely into Red Elemental / Pyroblast, which is a much more massive tempo loss than it is normally. 5/6-drops getting REBed for 1 mana (god forbid Snap-REBed) is VERY painful.
You play squarely into anti-blue land hate. I didn't realize how much of this exists beyond Nic Fit sideboards until I played Pyromancer. Choke is much more horrifying than I gave it credit for, though some of that might be because grixis can't kill it in colors.
You have to run generally inferior creatures across the board than the white versions.
You also have generally inferior spells than the red versions (Burning Wish and Punishing Fire are both very strong).
You are forced to resort to various Garruks if you want a combat planeswalker.

Some of the cons negate some of the pros, while some are more complementary. You can certainly make the tempo hit from REB hurt less by just not running Consecrated Sphinx, for example -- but then you're missing out on that power level, which is kind of a conundrum since Sphinx is one of the reasons (imo) to go blue in the first place. The chance also exists to overload REB since they have to worry about Dig, Jace, etc as well. Other cons/problems are simply intrinsic and can't really be solved as well. Admittedly BUG Nic Fits have to worry about Choke several orders of magnitude less than most blue decks, but it can still catch you with your pants down sometimes. I have 100% lost games to Blood Moon while having 8 basics in my deck. It's mega tilting, but it can and does happen.

Honestly, I still say that as far as Nic Fit is concerned, you both can and should be able to play whatever color combination you want. Philosophically, I do not believe in the blue-master-race, at least within our own borders. It CERTAINLY can be -- and SHOULD be -- that individual pilots have individual preferences. You may well value the consistency that Brainstorm/Dig/etc offer above all else, and that is 100% okay in my book. John down the street might prefer to slam bombs until the opponent is out of removal...well hey, white is awfully good at that. Or Tim over here might like railgun attrition with Punishing Fires, grinding the creature decks to dust. Meanwhile, Beth just wants to Scapeshift people, but Joris likes to do Rector-Omniscience things. Or whatever.

I have held for a very, very long time now that there is no right way to play this deck -- only mine, and yours, and his, and hers. It's one of the most frustrating things about the archetype when brewing it or discussing it, but it's also one of the deck's most wondrous strengths. For you, there may only be one 'correct' color combination, and that's okay. I have no problem with that until we hit that barrier of one type being strictly better than another in an abstract sense, because I just truly believe that isn't the case.

I will admit that there are an awful lot of poorly built Nic Fit lists, and the blue builds are probably a little harder to build incorrectly on a base level // are intrinsically better philosophically in a world of averages. Assuming high-level builds of all variants, however, a lot of these issues disappear and the field is much more even than it sometimes appears. That being said, the blue lists are probably also the hardest to build correctly. It does say a lot about the strength of Brainstorm that you can jam it into a deck and it's automatically better than average, even if an otherwise poorly built blue list isn't "in its final form," so to speak.

If you held a gun to my head and forced to me rank Nic Fit color combos as such, I would probably suggest this:

Well-built Red == Well-built BUG == Well-built White >> average built blue >> average built red >> average built white == poorly built blue >> poorly built red >> poorly built white.

I do agree that the power of the draw spells gives you an edge until the highest tier of lists. Likewise, I would tend to bias red over white just off of the raw power of Punishing / Wish as engines. White versions really struggle with the correct balance of everything -- juggling the mix of creatures, bombs, removal, utility, and draw is very challenging, and it is easy for white lists to do very poorly as a result.

@Bobmans: Those Tops are sweet!

@General: There is a longstanding tradition that I see is still playing out. It's called: Nic Fit players wuss out of playing Nic Fit at GPs (for whatever reason, not saying Ralf wasn't a Good Guy) and get punished for it. It's happened to me, I know it's also happened to Qweerios, and I recall reading about it from previous GPs. If you're going to audible out of Nic Fit in the future, my advice would be to play a deck that uses a similar skillset -- look for a Cabal Therapy deck. My audible deck currently is Grixis Pyromancer (control variant), which plays a similar gameplan and runs Cabal Therapy.

Alright, I'm gonna go get some brewing done. I should have some lists for perusal either later today or tomorrow at the latest. I'm probably going to start with Night's Whisper versions and then work outwards from there, because I think that Whisper -probably- has the most potential out of the lot, with Diabolic Intent running second.

[Ralf]

@General: There is a longstanding tradition that I see is still playing out. It's called: Nic Fit players wuss out of playing Nic Fit at GPs (for whatever reason, not saying Ralf wasn't a Good Guy) and get punished for it. It's happened to me, I know it's also happened to Qweerios, and I recall reading about it from previous GPs. If you're going to audible out of Nic Fit in the future, my advice would be to play a deck that uses a similar skillset -- look for a Cabal Therapy deck. My audible deck currently is Grixis Pyromancer (control variant), which plays a similar gameplan and runs Cabal Therapy.


Nice Headshot ! :tongue:

When you are left with "Arid Mesas" as your lone fetches, you HAVE to find a deck to "keep up apparences" !!!!
Joke aside, Imperial Tax was really fun to play.

Should have played my B/R Suicide deck on the main event. ahahahah

[uncletiggy]

So far it has game but I have not heavily tested it. I wanted a version that had more game against show and tell strategies without gutting the core concept. There are alot of incremental ca and life gain built into the explore top courser engine. My take aways so far are that I want a second arbor and either a second sigarda or the first dromoka. Its by no means refined yet and is still in its infancy but im confidant its a real option.

[Bobmans]

So far it has game but I have not heavily tested it. I wanted a version that had more game against show and tell strategies without gutting the core concept. There are alot of incremental ca and life gain built into the explore top courser engine. My take aways so far are that I want a second arbor and either a second sigarda or the first dromoka. Its by no means refined yet and is still in its infancy but im confidant its a real option.

2nd Sigarda? You could also try a Thrun next to Sigarda. They are good buddies..
Also i am curious to Dryad Arbor's performance, especcially since you want a second copy.

@Ralf, i see in your Junk list you run Sakura-Tribe Elder and Acadic Slime. Why not run Gaddock Teeg and Reclamation Sage instead?

@Arianrhod, thanks. Not lets hope i keep to play them. You know i played the PFire list and the Junk list both at GP Utrecht side events. The lists underperformed. Junk more then Jund, but the games where super grindy and i felt like i wanted shorter games and something with an "oops-i-win" factor. MUD is in any case my to go to and i felt it was a super good call to run it. Anyway, i will not linger from the path when i chosen one. The big question is: can NicFit rise to the stars?

In case SDT got banned i just bought a 4thBB Jap Sylvan Library and a Jap Mirri's Guile, just in case. If it stays i am a step closer to regular JUND anyway.

[Ralf]

@Ralf, i see in your Junk list you run Sakura-Tribe Elder and Acadic Slime. Why not run Gaddock Teeg and Reclamation Sage instead?

In case SDT got banned i just bought a 4thBB Jap Sylvan Library and a Jap Mirri's Guile, just in case. If it stays i am a step closer to regular JUND anyway.

Gaddock is a very good GSZ target but a pretty poor topdeck against any fair decks. Usually you pack him against unfair strategy.
Sage is a very good GSZ target but also a poor topdeck. I have opted to play the 2nd Maelstrom Pulse before the first Sage.

I would also point out that my list have eschewed the Stoneforge package which emphasis the clunkyish aspect of such creatures in my MD shell.

So to sum it up:

1) You can play Sage & Gaddock MD if you are playing the stoneforge package
2) Otherwise, you should not.

My two cents.

[uncletiggy]

2nd Sigarda? You could also try a Thrun next to Sigarda. They are good buddies..
Also i am curious to Dryad Arbor's performance, especcially since you want a second copy.

Second arbor primarily as additional sac fodder for therapy and intent. Chump blocker that trigger titania sacable to knight it opens a lot of lines and ive encountered times id already used it but needed another.

Thrun is good but I want a second beefy relient flyer in the main I can zenith for. Tasigur rhino goyf mirran crusader or pyromancer tokens just stonewall him. Without equips wolf run or p fire i think hes a wall in too many matchups i want a clock i can count on.

[CountryCaravan]

Hello! I'm new to the forum, and Legacy in general (though I have a good idea of how things play out through videos). I've been following the Magic Origins spoiler since it came out, and the Veteran Explorer/Evolutionary Leap engine since it came out. With no other creatures in your deck, Leap will inevitably find another Explorer. Thus, you can search out 8 forests in a single turn (or 6 forests and two other basics). I've seen this discussed in this thread, but suffice to say I think you're giving up on the dream too soon.

The big thing that's been ignored so far is that with tokens, it becomes much closer to a 1-card combo. All you need is Leap, and it will find you an Explorer to start the chain.


Some ideas I've been kicking around:

Khalni Garden
Sylvan Library
Lingering Souls
Primal Command
Time Spiral
Rude Awakening
Garruk Wildspeaker

As for the speed, I don't think that not being a turn 2 kill is particularly important. Food Chain is very much a value deck that happens to have an infinite combo, and I feel that's a better idea of what an Evolutionary Leap build should look like.

[Echelon]

Imagine the following scenario:

You: Rude Awakening. Move to combat phase?
Opponent: Spin Top, pay W, Terminus. GG?

[Scott]

I also wanted to say that we shouldn't write off Woodland Bellower, our new fuzzy 6/5 friend that tutors a 3cmc green creature. While it's not Primeval Titan, it can generate some serious value if we're grabbing Eternal Witness, Fierce Empath, QPM/Rec Sage, Sprouting Thrinax etc. when our games are going long. This thing allows 3-for-1 plays and can represent a 2 turn clock, that's right up my alley.
If you want to get cute, BUG people can grab Nulltread Gargantuan, put the Bellower on top of the library, then tutor again next turn. Also Shardless Agent.
You can get even cuter and grab Groundbreaker :X
Additionally, cards yet to be printed could break this thing. I'm going to grab one for the ol' NicFit Box of Possibilities (where I keep all my favorite Timmy cards).

I've been testing Woodland Bellower instead of the usual Grave Titan as my 6-drop and so far I like it a little better. For reference, this is Junk Fit with Siege Rhino as the 4-drop and Sigarda, Host of Herons as the 5-drop.

It doesn't provide as much board presence as Titan, but it's been a more problem-solving board presence more often than not, usually grabbing Eternal Witness (which by that point has a slew of game-changing options) or Qasali Pridemage. The other major plus is GSZ-ability; a minor plus is Titan tokens not sometimes conflicting with Pernicious Deed. A minor drawback is less token fuel for sac effects. I'm sure that depending on the build, it'll be a fine choice along with Sun Titan and the other accepted big guys.

[CountryCaravan]

Imagine the following scenario:

You: Rude Awakening. Move to combat phase?
Opponent: Spin Top, pay W, Terminus. GG?

Problematic, but relying on it as the sole win condition is probably a poor idea in the first place and playing around Terminus-geddon is something you can often afford to do when you have 10 lands in play.

[lavafrogg]

Is there a list for Naya Scapewish?

White for hate bears against other combo decks and for access to path to exile and wear/tear, could be an option?

[Echelon]

Problematic, but relying on it as the sole win condition is probably a poor idea in the first place and playing around Terminus-geddon is something you can often afford to do when you have 10 lands in play.

Well... 10 lands is a pretty bad clock... And they can't block incoming attackers either. Or interact with anyCombo. They don't tax your opponent, they aren't hatebears and so on. It's nice to power our a lot of land, but you still have to either interact with your opponent(s threats) or present threats yourself.

[emuhell]

... The lists underperformed. Junk more then Jund, but the games where super grindy and i felt like i wanted shorter games and something with an "oops-i-win" factor.

Why not Scapefit? :)
Also a 6 Tutor Scapefit list (2 DI, 4 Burning Wish) could maybe play without SDT or just with cards like Nights Whisper to dig for Tutors.


Is there a list for Naya Scapewish?
White for hate bears against other combo decks and for access to path to exile and wear/tear, could be an option?

NicFit without Cabal Therapy? How would you trigger the Explorer?
And NicFit imo wants to play too many basics for 4-color strategies. (but I'm no expert!)

[Bobmans]

Why not Scapefit? :)


Good point, i am not ready to invest in 3x taiga and 3x badlands, which need to be FBB ofc. Getting rev first is also kind of pointless. Maybe i should proxy it and play to see if i like it.

[Arianrhod]

I've been testing Woodland Bellower instead of the usual Grave Titan as my 6-drop and so far I like it a little better. For reference, this is Junk Fit with Siege Rhino as the 4-drop and Sigarda, Host of Herons as the 5-drop.

It doesn't provide as much board presence as Titan, but it's been a more problem-solving board presence more often than not, usually grabbing Eternal Witness (which by that point has a slew of game-changing options) or Qasali Pridemage. The other major plus is GSZ-ability; a minor plus is Titan tokens not sometimes conflicting with Pernicious Deed. A minor drawback is less token fuel for sac effects. I'm sure that depending on the build, it'll be a fine choice along with Sun Titan and the other accepted big guys.

I can get behind replacing Grave Titan, because fuck that card. I do think that you need to explain (for your own benefit, not being condescending) how Bellower is better than Dromoka or Primeval Titan as the secondary 6 beside Sun Titan.


Why not Scapefit? :)
Also a 6 Tutor Scapefit list (2 DI, 4 Burning Wish) could maybe play without SDT or just with cards like Nights Whisper to dig for Tutors.



NicFit without Cabal Therapy? How would you trigger the Explorer?
And NicFit imo wants to play too many basics for 4-color strategies. (but I'm no expert!)

4c is rough but doable. Amusingly, 5c is easier than 4. I messed around for a while with non-black versions using Crack the Earth as the outlet, but it just wasn't good enough.

I think the issue Scapewish runs into without Top is just those critical early turns. Running more tutors to compensate late game is a no-brainer -- but Scape always had issues having a smooth early game because of the raw number of actual, non-fetch lands that you need to run to make the ratios work out between basics for Explorers and ramp dudes and duals for Scapeshift. Furthermore, you're stuck with 2 Valakuts alongside basic Mountains, which can exacerbate the issue even further.


Good point, i am not ready to invest in 3x taiga and 3x badlands, which need to be FBB ofc. Getting rev first is also kind of pointless. Maybe i should proxy it and play to see if i like it.

This is where I'm at with Tundras in vintage. Talk about first world problems -- but no matter how self-aware I am, I just can't bring myself to go white bordered. The only cards that are allowed to be white bordered are power.

[Bobmans]

I have had several questions regarding Punishing Fire NicFit thru PM, but i missed them because i was strictly using Tapatalk and it disnt show me i had message's. Regardless of the current meta and if or if not Sensei's Divining Top will be banned the list displayed below is what i would run now. But i will describe why and how i came to this 76.

For a couple of month's i have been playing and tweaking the Punishing Fires list. I tried several configurations and eventually caused me to split the list into 2 versions. 1 version was more regular running an all green creature package and the newer version runnig 2 Stormbreath Dragon.

For the green version i had tested various creature packages.
1. 4/1 vs 3/4 Split between Veteran Explorer and Deathrite Shaman. During testing i found that the early game didn't apply any pressure outside of Veteran Explorer coupled with Cabal Therapy. You will not always get an opening with those two at the same time. Also without applying to much pressure during the early game my opponents had more removal and other business when swifting into midgame. This made my midgame less solid. Running 4 Deathrite Shaman fixed that at the cost of one Veteran Explorer. Being able to slam Deathrite Shaman during turn 1 was good in a lot of match-ups including a number of combo match-ups. Being able to put early pressure on the board created a much better midgame position.

2. 0 vs 2/3 Thoughtseize main. I wanted even more pressure during the early turns. But this was at the cost of Vraska and a Green Sun's Zenith or Courser of Kruphix. We have a fixed number of removal and in my oppinion we cannot change those numbers. While running 2 Thoughtseize and 4 Deathrite Shaman main i gained a lot of velocity with the deck, but it was lacking midgame pressure. It felt like starting a running competition to fast and halfway your having to pull yourself forward while all your energy is gone.

3. Scraping the cute. Vraska the Unseen and Courser of Kruphix fall in this category. While both fullfill a totally diferent role i can say this. With the velocity i had with 2 Thoughtseize main i was missing midgame business. Courser gave an edge on card-advantage by further exploiting Sensei's Divining Top. Even own it's on it could put us ahead. Vraska is a total different animal. I played Garruk Relentless a couple of weeks and everytime it landed it felt like a weaker version of Vraska. The removal was lacking reach and the tokens where often to soft. While Vraska does not make tokens (not counting her winning Ultimate) she is actually a pretty complex combat walker. So those two cards make the cut again.

4. Stormbreath Dragon. This card is just bonkers and has won a lot of games on it's own. Also it put a stop at my opponents combat streak AND a lot of opponents are currently left with staring at their Sword to Plowshares stuck in their hand. But there is a but. The creature is not green. Therefor needed in multiples. Also it is CMC 5. So to balance the mana curve i had to cut the 6 drop and Thrun. The big question i still have is, is it worth cutting the green? I think the answer is no. This came to me after seeing the PFire list getting into T16 during a SCG event and i realised that what gives us the best mid/longgame plan is the ability to Zenith. Or like in the military as they say: "Stick to the plan".

5. 2/2/2 split vs 3/2/1 split between Forest, Swamp and Mountain. One word: "manascrew". It happened with the regular setup, but it was happening more often where you have multiple off color spells. Also running RR, BB and GG casting cost cards make that you will often find yourself puzzeling to fix colors to much while opening yourself to Wasteland more. So cutting the red creature and sticking with GBr as much as possible is best.

6. Kolaghan's Command vs Maelstrom Pulse. Now this card is very intersting. I am prefering it to the Pulse for a number of reason's. 1. It's an instant. 2. All modes are relevant so it always does something in ANY match-up. 3. It is always a 2-for-1 card. 4. It was made for this deck. I included one maindeck to test it and i am loving the card. Especially against Death and Taxes (or any other stoneblade deck) the card is bonkers. Also with the Destroy an artifact it matches it's sister card Golgari Charm. So i decided to put 2 of each in my 76. This way we have 2/4 disenchant in the deck that can also take care of creatures. Also Command can be used against combo, while Charm is also useful against Elves or Young Pyromancer. The cards are swiss army knifes. Super, i'm loving it.

7. Blood Moon. While this card looked promising it felt super akward. It never helped me win, it seems like people are prepared for that card or something. Anyway it didn't help me enough and i'd rather run Red Elemental Blast to assist in combatting Omnishow or Miracles (or other combo/fow decks).

8. Extirpate vs Surgical Extraction. While the Split Second ability can be game determining i find it to be more usefull to have more tempo and choose to run Surgical Extraction. And i was not disappointed. While being able to hold open a mana for Deathrite Shaman you do not have to hold open another mana. This way you can build up to midgame a bit faster while applying pressure to the game. Also it opens up a possible turn 0 answer to very fast yard decks like Oozing or Reanimator.

9. Primeval Titan. We have had discussions before on this thread and i feel that there is no real choice to run or not run it. Going for Rampaging Baloth of Grave Titan is optional. But there is no CMC 6 in the Jund colors that rocks my world. Charnelhoard Wurm is still the sickest creature i have actually played in this deck, but something is keeping me away from it (it might be that it is CMC 7), unless you guys aprove of this.

All-in-all i had a lot of fun playing the various options in this deck, but i have figured i got beyond the point of having the perfect list (nothing is perfect). So i stepped back a few tweaks and have settled for something very flexible.

Let's get grindy:

// 61 card main:
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vraska the Unseen

2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

// 15 card side:
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Slaughter Games
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Kolaghan's Command

[emuhell]

I think the issue Scapewish runs into without Top is just those critical early turns. Running more tutors to compensate late game is a no-brainer -- but Scape always had issues having a smooth early game because of the raw number of actual, non-fetch lands that you need to run to make the ratios work out between basics for Explorers and ramp dudes and duals for Scapeshift. Furthermore, you're stuck with 2 Valakuts alongside basic Mountains, which can exacerbate the issue even further.


I get your point. Since you already tried to develop some post-SDT strategies, could you think of any way to solve those early turn issues for Scapewish?

Mirris Guile/Sylvan Library + Explorer/Tribe Elder/Wood Elves/GSZ provide good value and maybe the Scapefit list could - due to the wishboard - allow to decrease or cut the deeds. On the other hand the low amount of fetchlands also affects Guile/Library.
But I expect an overall increase in Monastery Mentors albeit SDT, so Deed will become an excellent card again.

Just Brainstorming:
What about adding 1-2 (fetch-)lands and 2-3 Magmatic Insight + Titania. Adding lands bolsters the Scapeshift finish and could give us an additional turn 1 play (not the best one, sure). Titania should imo be a thing in Scapefit - but I didn't try her so far.


EDIT: Since Bobmans just stroke a blow for Courser of Kruphix - this one also likes to play with Guile/Library - and stacks some triggers on Scapeshift.

[Arianrhod]

Here are a pair of Topless lists for consideration:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Selvala, Explorer Returned
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Sun Titan
1 Dragonlord Dromoka

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Night's Whisper

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Abzan Charm

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas

//sb
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Slaughter Games
1 Taiga
1 Tsunami
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Nether Void

------------------------------

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Wall of Blossoms
2 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
1 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Primeval Titan

3 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
2 Diabolic Intent
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Scapeshift

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
4 Taiga
3 Badlands
2 Stomping Grounds
1 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Kessig Wolf Run

//sb
3 Slaughter Games
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Thoughtseize
1 Scapeshift
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Pyroclasm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Massacre
1 Maelstrom Pulse


The first is a white list in a rock-style, the second is Scapewish. I also want to tease out a potential Thune variant with Whispers and Living Wishes that I thought of but didn't have time to develop today. I would take a stab at Punishing, but realistically I just don't know enough about it to have an informed opinion. The blue lists are going to change more from meta shifts than from Top's ban mattering -- worst case they just run more Brainstorms/Digs/Ponders in those slots.

Note that both sideboards are super general -- a Top ban would have very large ramifications to the format, and the meta would be a wild west for a while. Keep in mind that all of this is speculatory, since if they do ban Top, we'll likely get something unbanned at the same time. If that something is Mind Twist, for example, that would change quite a bit on our end.

[Ralf]

Note that both sideboards are super general -- a Top ban would have very large ramifications to the format, and the meta would be a wild west for a while. Keep in mind that all of this is speculatory, since if they do ban Top, we'll likely get something unbanned at the same time. If that something is Mind Twist, for example, that would change quite a bit on our end.

That is a lot of Bombs !!!
Anyway, let's wild wild West a little bit for the moment.
I'll think about your lists and come up with few arguments by tomorrow.

Edit = not enough basics in Scape to my taste

[Bobmans]

Indeed a lot of bombs. It feels your rock list lacks (spot)removal.
I like the idea of running 2 baneslayers, resembles running 2 stormbreaths in my pfire list.
Anyhow, i would replace top for:
1 Sylvan Library
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Diabolic Intent
I like the idea of having a continues effect of the enchantments. Draw 2 just seems a bit meh.

[Arianrhod]

That is a lot of Bombs !!!
Anyway, let's wild wild West a little bit for the moment.
I'll think about your lists and come up with few arguments by tomorrow.

Edit = not enough basics in Scape to my taste

There should be another one. I wanted to squeeze the Kessig in and didn't realize that I'd already cut one basic. Oops. The white list also has a manabase oops in it -- I just copy/pasted an old white manabase from my Evernote and forgot about the Slaughter sideboard. There should be 2 more fetches in there, and the maindeck should have at least 1 Deathrite over the 2nd Skaura-Tribe, and probably a 2nd Deathrite.....somewhere, over something else.

Don't forget that Abzan Charm is also removal. In fact, in a Topless world I expect 2 Abzan Charms to be fairly common for white lists -- it's quality instant-speed removal with additional functionality. I've run one copy in white versions in the past and have used all three modes. Removal that can also be additional Whispers is very strong. It's -possible- that there wants to be another 1 or 2 spot removals maindeck, but I would prefer to use the combat step as removal. A lot of the decks that we could expect to come back out of hiding after Miracles is removed from the format are very weak to Deed, anyway, so I would probably run with this suite for a while and see how it goes.

[Warden]

Is baneslayer hard on the mana? Serious question because I found Sun Titan to be manageable in Junk. Then again, 6 mana is a different animal than 5.

[Ralf]

Is baneslayer hard on the mana? Serious question because I found Sun Titan to be manageable in Junk. Then again, 6 mana is a different animal than 5.

Not that much.
I've played Baneslayer in quite a few Nic Fit list but being only white requires you to play at least 2 to see him at least once in any game.
Nic Fit games has a tendancy to go "long" if you know what I mean.

[Memories of the Time]

Hello people.
After my last tournament (9° for ratings, 3-1-1 in a 32p, losing from UWR mentor by bad luck without playing and draw with Lands by my horrible mistake in g2), i've made some changes in my Bug Pod list. Principally i've added red splash for three cards that really intrigue me:
Keranos, a perfect drop when you have a stable board to close the game
Anathemancer, a surprising creature that helps against lands/post, close the game vs control (and that's an important point) and deals with PW
Magus of the Moon in the sb, against Lands, Post and greedy manabase

My first test on cockatrice with this new version (although i want to start serious test after monday, when i've an exam and there will be the ban list) are going very well and i'm loosing especially by mana screw/flood. This is the list (and an idea of a deck without top)

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Baleful Strix
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Yasova Dragonclaw
1 Anathemancer
1 Notion Thief
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Thragtusk
1 Keranos, God of Storms

1 Polluted Delta
1 Taiga
2 Swamp
1 Island
2 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea

2 Pernicious Deed
3 Birthing Pod
4 Brainstorm
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
4 Cabal Therapy

SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 1 Swan Song
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker

[Bobmans]

i'm loosing especially by mana screw/flood. This is the list (and an idea of a deck without top)


First off, i really enjoy seeing this list. Second i really like that this list runs a red splash for Keranos and Magus. Might aswell include some Slaughter Games. Third and last for now, getting manascrew (color) is something that really needs fixing. That must be the biggest weakness to overcome. The big question is how. The early versions of (mostly) SotF ran 4 or 5 colors and used 3-4 City of Brass and Birds of Paradise to fix mana. But that that was in a totally different world.

[Memories of the Time]

First off, i really enjoy seeing this list. Second i really like that this list runs a red splash for Keranos and Magus. Might aswell include some Slaughter Games. Third and last for now, getting manascrew (color) is something that really needs fixing. That must be the biggest weakness to overcome. The big question is how. The early versions of (mostly) SotF ran 4 or 5 colors and used 3-4 City of Brass and Birds of Paradise to fix mana. But that that was in a totally different world.

Sometimes i get colorscrew, of course, like the g2 of the only turn loses last tournament. More often my problems are flood/manascrew, and for this reason i've added 1 Library and 1 Top (originally i was playing only 4 brainstorm).
Anyway, don't understimate Anathemancer: he's able to reasonably kill any pw and i've often used unearth, that's good in this deck because you can pod it away after etb+attack.

[Surfkatt]

I have not been playing as much Legacy recently but this is my Scapewish list.

Scapewish
By: Surfkatt


Main Deck:
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wood Elves

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Burning Wish
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Scapeshift
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Thoughtseize

3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
4 Verdant Catacombs


Sideboard:
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Dryad Militant
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Massacre
2 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Scapeshift
1 Slaughter Games
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge


I have always been a huge fan of the Decays in the main. It has always been an all star for me, it was a big part of my IQ win.




Just Brainstorming:
What about adding 1-2 (fetch-)lands and 2-3 Magmatic Insight + Titania. Adding lands bolsters the Scapeshift finish and could give us an additional turn 1 play (not the best one, sure). Titania should imo be a thing in Scapefit - but I didn't try her so far.


Idk why but this idea really tickles me. What about something like this-

Topless Scapewish
By: Surfkatt


Main Deck:
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wood Elves

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Burning Wish
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Scapeshift
3 Magmatic Insight
1 Thoughtseize

3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard:
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Dryad Militant
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Massacre
2 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Scapeshift
1 Slaughter Games
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

I went up to 25 lands but one of them is an arbor. I have always wanted an arbor but I never had a good enough reason to run one. Titania and insight might be those reasons. Going up a fetch also makes me want to squeeze a courser or 2 in there for even more advantage. They would be over the Decays so I dont think I am ready to do that yet. Lmk what you guys think.

[Arianrhod]

Idk why but this idea really tickles me. What about something like this-

Topless Scapewish
By: Surfkatt


Main Deck:
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wood Elves

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Burning Wish
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Scapeshift
3 Magmatic Insight
1 Thoughtseize

3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard:
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Dryad Militant
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Massacre
2 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Scapeshift
1 Slaughter Games
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

I went up to 25 lands but one of them is an arbor. I have always wanted an arbor but I never had a good enough reason to run one. Titania and insight might be those reasons. Going up a fetch also makes me want to squeeze a courser or 2 in there for even more advantage. They would be over the Decays so I dont think I am ready to do that yet. Lmk what you guys think.

This is super interesting.

I don't think I like Magmatic Insight in a Scape shell, since you want to be playing your lands rather than discarding them -- but perhaps a Punishing shell? Card has to be insane with Loam, too. Could be a missing link for a Nic Fit variant of aggro loam.

[thotcrime]

Yasova looks like pretty sweet tech against fairer decks (stupid DnT) and I have to say I'm digging the Anathemancer.

Someone stated earlier that we should use a Sylvan Library/Mirri's Guile/Diabolic Intent split to replace SDT. My favorite aspect of these cards is the lack of mana investment; once they're cast, that's it. Obviously 1 colorless mana isn't a terrible lot to pay for filtering with Top, but the fact that we'll have that 1 mana open could allow tighter early turns (hey Path, Thoughtseize, etc). Maybe.
We could also settle on more fetches (I'm currently running 8) to ensure a shuffle if we don't like the top cards.
This clearly doesn't solve the problem of Deed destroying our goodies, but it seems like a few activations of Library/Guile should be more than enough to solidify a gameplan. Get your money's worth then blow 'em up, eh?
Alternatively, as better players than I have already suggested, nix the Deeds for other (less tits) sweepers like Deluge, Explosives, whatever.
I know speculation is the devil's work, but I'm jumping on the Library train today. Ya know. Just in case.
...


Edit: Something else to consider; if SDT gets the banhammer, Miracles (the most abusive control deck IMO) goes bye bye, setting the stage for either 1.) a huge upsurge in combo, 2.) a more probable upsurge in creature decks. Being that I play Junk, I'm looking much more closely at combat planeswalkers.
Also, PunishingFit has the potential to explode if the Delvers/Maverick/Infect lists gain momentum.

[tilzinger]

Instead of a Scapewish Evolutionary Leap build, what about a walkers build? Just thinking out loud here. Not sure I've ever seen Advent of the Wurm in a Modern deck, let alone Legacy, but a 5/5 with trample at that lets you still only run 4 creatures seems pretty good. Not sure if this of walkers is the most optimal.


22 lands
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Evolutionary Leap
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Advent of the Wurm
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Vraska the Unseen
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Karn Liberated

[emuhell]

Instead of a Scapewish Evolutionary Leap build, what about a walkers build? Just thinking out loud here. Not sure I've ever seen Advent of the Wurm in a Modern deck, let alone Legacy, but a 5/5 with trample at that lets you still only run 4 creatures seems pretty good. Not sure if this of walkers is the most optimal...

Since you rely heavily on tokens to win, Pernicious Deed is a very ambivalent card.
I'm not sure what to think of the leap builds so far. It seems very cute and risky. If you don't combo out, you are just a really slow superfriends deck, without jace.

[lavafrogg]

Could be a relevant question: If Primeval Titan fetched an urborg and a cabal coffers, what could you do with the mana that is also relevant without tons of mana... Im thinking a Profane command that doesn't piss me off(the last mode should be gain x life!)

[Tom4ik]

I am all for brewing and playing oddball cards but sometimes I wonder if this thread is actually trying to create a competitive deck or not. It is certainly one of the most active and interesting groups for what thats worth.

For those posting card choices or deck archtypes, please justify (this does not mean tell what the card/s do) what the card is doing better than something else.

For example, why is running 2 land combo that gives lots of mana once we have a lot of mana useful?

A generic example is "I like playing Vet/Therapy in my bug control deck because I get to play less land (the turbo xerox model) and the ability to disrupt while also playing haymakers like jace and deed early."

(no offense to anyone, I love the vet therapy combo)

[Bobmans]

I am all for brewing and playing oddball cards but sometimes I wonder if this thread is actually trying to create a competitive deck or not. It is certainly one of the most active and interesting groups for what thats worth.


Sometimes yes and sometimes no. There is a grey area as for this deck that plays competitive and meta tweaked lists and lets say not so competitive fun stuff that you can't really justify other then that you want to play it in an eternal enviroment. Call that love for Magic: the Gathering. I think the question is, do we want discussion for competitive purposes only in this thread?

I don't have a problem with this, other then that sometimes posts go all over the place, and posts are missing response.

[lavafrogg]

I am all for brewing and playing oddball cards but sometimes I wonder if this thread is actually trying to create a competitive deck or not. It is certainly one of the most active and interesting groups for what thats worth.

For those posting card choices or deck archtypes, please justify (this does not mean tell what the card/s do) what the card is doing better than something else.

For example, why is running 2 land combo that gives lots of mana once we have a lot of mana useful?

A generic example is "I like playing Vet/Therapy in my bug control deck because I get to play less land (the turbo xerox model) and the ability to disrupt while also playing haymakers like jace and deed early."

(no offense to anyone, I love the vet therapy combo)

I'm fairly certain I was asking a question about what this deck would do with tons of black mana. Green Suns zenith for primeval Titan seems like the best thing that Nic Fit can do, it is non graveyard dependent and automatically gets 2 lands. What are the best 2 lands to get?

RG can get valakut and start manually exploding volcanoes. What can GB/GBw do?

[Bobmans]

... never mind.

Can't delete the message with Tapatalk.

[tilzinger]

RG can get valakut and start manually exploding volcanoes. What can GB/GBw do?

Exsanguinate?

[lavafrogg]

Exsanguinate?

Yeah, the beat j can come up with is profane command or drain life/consume spirit.

[thotcrime]

Sometimes yes and sometimes no. There is a grey area as for this deck that plays competitive and meta tweaked lists and lets say not so competitive fun stuff that you can't really justify other then that you want to play it in an eternal enviroment. Call that love for Magic: the Gathering. I think the question is, do we want discussion for competitive purposes only in this thread?

I don't have a problem with this, other then that sometimes posts go all over the place, and posts are missing response.

What Bobmans hinted at here is the crux of my obsession with this deck and something you won't often find with other archetypes: liberating, honest-to-fuck freewill to play whatever you want and have fun doing it. The real treat is musing about card X or card Y and figuring out a way to essentially prank opponents into losing the game. Who else can slam Thragtusk in legacy and ride that hog to victory? I'll guarantee the first person to suggest 'Tusk in this deck was giggled at. The natural response to an eccentric idea is skepticism. IMO, this deck is flexible enough to accommodate varying tastes/humors while being clever enough to take down top tier decks. While I agree that this isn't a brass-tacks-Delver-league forum, there's something to be gained from veteran players (lol) and noobs alike simply because this deck is so approachable.
The NicFit primer might be 40% noise, 30% speculation, 20% brewing and 10% tournament results, but I'm always happy to return and read about the silly(worthwhile) shit other players are doing.


On Exsanguinate: assuming you cast Prime Titan with 6 lands in play then fetch Urborg and Coffers, you can untap next turn and cast Exsanguinate for 11. This certainly is a cute prospect, but I wouldn't bother daydreaming about it unless you're playing Burning Wish. It would be rather tits to see it happen though.
If you were just trolling, ya got me.

Lavafrogg mentioned Profane Command, has anyone actually tried this ? The card is fucking nutso, especially when we're casting for 5+

[lavafrogg]

Profane command would work as a build your own kill/reanimate spell for much of the game and would double as the burn/alpha-strike win condition with an coffers/urborg in play. I really wish the last mode was anything better.

If you read the command article wizards did a few years ago the last mode was supposed to be "gain x life" which would be perfect but they felt it was too strong for standard...

[Leoj]

What Bobmans hinted at here is the crux of my obsession with this deck and something you won't often find with other archetypes: liberating, honest-to-fuck freewill to play whatever you want and have fun doing it. The real treat is musing about card X or card Y and figuring out a way to essentially prank opponents into losing the game. Who else can slam Thragtusk in legacy and ride that hog to victory? I'll guarantee the first person to suggest 'Tusk in this deck was giggled at. The natural response to an eccentric idea is skepticism. IMO, this deck is flexible enough to accommodate varying tastes/humors while being clever enough to take down top tier decks. While I agree that this isn't a brass-tacks-Delver-league forum, there's something to be gained from veteran players (lol) and noobs alike simply because this deck is so approachable.
The NicFit primer might be 40% noise, 30% speculation, 20% brewing and 10% tournament results, but I'm always happy to return and read about the silly(worthwhile) shit other players are doing.

I've been lurking this thread quite a while was interested in getting into Legacy and building GBw Nic Fit. I love the concept behind the deck. It's kind of frustrating because I have a few friends who play a lot of Legacy that just tell me the deck is bad and "oh X isn't playable in Legacy." Good to know other people run into this, I guess.

[Bobmans]

I've been lurking this thread quite a while was interested in getting into Legacy and building GBw Nic Fit. I love the concept behind the deck. It's kind of frustrating because I have a few friends who play a lot of Legacy that just tell me the deck is bad and "oh X isn't playable in Legacy." Good to know other people run into this, I guess.
You get all sorts of comments on playing NicFit during a tournament. One time this guy was flaming me for playing Siege Rhino in Legacy. Haha. Always love to see the faces when i jam my full japanese deck filled with readers on the board. One gotta to know the format, some don't even dare to ask what cards do when you jam it next to FBB signed Duals.

[Anarky87]

I've been lurking this thread quite a while was interested in getting into Legacy and building GBw Nic Fit. I love the concept behind the deck. It's kind of frustrating because I have a few friends who play a lot of Legacy that just tell me the deck is bad and "oh X isn't playable in Legacy." Good to know other people run into this, I guess.

I have the Punishing Fire version built and that thing is just stupid fun.

Just to counter a little of the scoffing the deck gets, I had an interesting scenario last night. I swung by the local shop for some FNM, and in between rounds I was handing out legacy decks for people to try out. I gave one guy NicFit and I played DnT. After a 15 minute game of back and forth, he final took control of the game. He commented one time while Topping that "This deck has so many great cards in it!"

After he won the game swinging with a recurring Thragtusk and Thrun, one of the spectators said "I never thought I'd see a Legacy game being won by Thrun and Swagtusk. That was awesome!"

Don't let the nay sayers bring you down. Indulge your inner NicFit.

[thotcrime]

Profane command would work as a build your own kill/reanimate spell for much of the game and would double as the burn/alpha-strike win condition with an coffers/urborg in play. I really wish the last mode was anything better.

If you read the command article wizards did a few years ago the last mode was supposed to be "gain x life" which would be perfect but they felt it was too strong for standard...

I'm saying even without Coffers/Borg the card could do work. Recurring a fallen Rhino while giving some stupid creature -4/-4 could be gamebreaking. In terms of card value, this might be an overlooked gem. It's an amazing late game topdeck, it's removal, recursion, even a win condition. Hmmmmmmm

[jbone2016]

Exsanguinate?
With ProsBloom? I can dig it.

[emuhell]

I'm saying even without Coffers/Borg the card could do work. Recurring a fallen Rhino while giving some stupid creature -4/-4 could be gamebreaking. In terms of card value, this might be an overlooked gem. It's an amazing late game topdeck, it's removal, recursion, even a win condition. Hmmmmmmm

I always have a flex spot in the wishboard. I am curious if there will be moments to wish for this thing.

I played two prerelease sealed tournaments these days and - although i dont compare limited with legacy - i came to appreciate the power of the new nissa. I will try her in scapefit and report my findings.

@Random-card-discussions: The deckbuilding space is wide open. There is no dominant nicfit list and the lists in this thread show big variances. I really like that - and the fact that most of the serious suggestions are properly discussed.

[lavafrogg]

I'm saying even without Coffers/Borg the card could do work. Recurring a fallen Rhino while giving some stupid creature -4/-4 could be gamebreaking. In terms of card value, this might be an overlooked gem. It's an amazing late game topdeck, it's removal, recursion, even a win condition. Hmmmmmmm

Early game it would be great to bring back an explorer, death rite shaman or scavenging ooze that has met its demise, late game it could be witnessed back to dome the opponent/recur a fattie/kill anything, especially with cabal coffers.

My problem has been that the two towers are graveyard dependent and I wanted prime time to be able to give value without using the yard.

Urborg/coffers has been the best idea so far.

[tilzinger]

If you were just trolling, ya got me.

Lavafrogg mentioned Profane Command, has anyone actually tried this ? The card is fucking nutso, especially when we're casting for 5+


Wasn't trolling, just came to mind as something to do next turn with excess mana. Swing with Titan and then send 6-10 dmg to face. Seemed good. Though the Profane Command would be better, just forgot about it.

[Jain_Mor]

You get all sorts of comments on playing NicFit during a tournament. One time this guy was flaming me for playing Siege Rhino in Legacy. Haha. Always love to see the faces when i jam my full japanese deck filled with readers on the board. One gotta to know the format, some don't even dare to ask what cards do when you jam it next to FBB signed Duals.

I played a Japanese siege rhino in a legacy tournament in Japan against a Japanese Esper Blade opponent. Towards the end of game 3 he chump blocked my rhino with a spirit token while at 3 life. That didn't quite go down how he wanted it too... XD

Regarding primetime lands in GBw, you can fetch vault of the archangel to turn your trampling giant INTO an exanguinate. But the usual thing is to get the two towers, volraths stronghold and phyrexian tower so you can start recurring everything assuming there isn't a RIP in play

[maharis]

I played a Japanese siege rhino in a legacy tournament in Japan against a Japanese Esper Blade opponent. Towards the end of game 3 he chump blocked my rhino with a spirit token while at 3 life. That didn't quite go down how he wanted it too... XD

Regarding primetime lands in GBw, you can fetch vault of the archangel to turn your trampling giant INTO an exanguinate. But the usual thing is to get the two towers, volraths stronghold and phyrexian tower so you can start recurring everything assuming there isn't a RIP in play

I played Vault in my Knight build in the TC era since there were so many aggro bolt decks. It's hard for them to beat huge knights or Rhinos with lifelink. The deathtouch can also be relevant.

[thotcrime]

The thing I don't like about Vault is the narrow application. It taps for colorless and does little else without a creature in play, putting it arguably in the same realm as Phyrexian Tower (requires creature to be useful). Cabal Coffers also runs into this problem, being pretty useless without its friend Urborg. If I were to brew something up using Profane Command, Coffers and 'Borg, it would probably be straight GB to take advantage of Coffers. I could easily see Caleb Durward's list supporting that.

edit: during my musings, I remembered the card Porphyry Nodes (or Drop of Honey if you prefer). I could see this monster doing serious work against DnT, Delver, SFM decks, etc

[Dzogchen]

So, putting this out there just in case: no B&R updates :) Keep toppin' away friends!

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/banned-and-restricted-announcement-2015-07-13

[Paranoid__Android]

Played a small casual 11 players legacy tournament an hour drive from my city. Got second with a bad topdeck mode in TOP4 Finals in game 3 against UG Infect. I've played a random Abzan list I've put up 10 minutes before going to the event. Decks to beat were: MonoG Elves, 2x Merfolks, WUR Countertop, Dredge, Belcher&Empty the Warrens, MonoW Quest, Deadguy Ale, Rogue WUBG tempo deck (Maverick&BUG Nic Fit mashup), etc...very strang metagame.

Round 01 - Bye

Got a free 50 minutes to explore metagame and to mentally prepare for the next three rounds.

Round 02 - Dredge 2:0

Won first game with Siege Rhinos and topdecking GSZ for Scooze. He didn't dredged a single Bridge or Narcomoeba. Game 2 I've sided in my gravehate. He went first. Careful Study discarded 2x Gravetrolls. Which were then Extracted for good.

Round 03 - Belcher&Empty the Warrens

This is the most fustrating deck to play against. Match can be quite fustrating if he wins on turn 1. Dice rolling won me first game. Went first, Therapy hit Charbelcher, and then Siege Rhino and Dromoka got me first game. Sided in half of my sideboard to try to beat him G2. Of course, we went first and went off with combo on T1. Let's go G3 game loss! G3 he kept a slow hand. I've managed to stall the game, until he played Charbelcher and combo off. For 5 damage. Haha! Then I prayed for a topdeck GSZ. It happened. Gaddock came in and it was three wins. Top4 was secured!

Round 04 - UG Infect

We splited for a draw to be first on the standings.

Top4 Round 01 Merfolk

G1 was won because of the two Deeds that cleared the board for Rhinos to swing or the win. Sided in only one EPlague. Never drew it at all. G2 he went for aggro and swung with lords, TNN's and Mutavaults. G3 was a long one. After many turns and exchanging cards, all I had left were basics and dual lands. No cards in hand and no creatures. His board had 3-4 creatures. Topdeck saved my day. Deed cleared the board and GSZ went for Dromoka which killed him in few turns. Can't remember, but I think G1 I was at one life and killed him afterwards. Haha!

Top4 Round 02 UG Infect

G1 was lost because of Inkmoths which flooded the board and I didn't have my legends to protect me. G2 I've sided in KGrip, 2x Melira and PNeedle. Won with Siege Rhinos and Dromoka. G3 was a very long one. Almost 30+ minutes. I I drew a GSZ a turn before, Sigarda and Dromoka could stall the board for my removals.

Cards of the day were definitely Dromoka, Siege Rhinos and Anafenza. I've felt like a standard player that tournament. Haha! :D Secondd place, for a 3 dolars entry fee, got me a mint RTR Overgrown Tomb, and two ''very bad pulls'' Dragons of Tarkir boosters.

I was thinking of adding in a Wilt-Leaf Liege and a Night of Soul's Betrayal. Is it a good idea, and what should I kick out of the maindeck?

This is the list:

Sideboard:

1x Containment Priest
2x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1x Obstinate Baloth
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Dryad Militant
1x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Extirpate
1x Duress
1x Thoughtseize
1x Engineered Plague
1x Leyline of The Void
1x Krisan Grip
1x Pithing Needle


Mainboard:

Lands

3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains
2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Karakas
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Wasteland

Creatures

4x Veteran Explorer
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Courser Of Kruphix
1x Thragtusk
1x Anafenza, the Foremost
2x Siege Rhino
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Dragonlord Dromoka

Spells

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Path to Exile
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Pernicious Deed
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Garruk Relentless

[thotcrime]

How have you found Anafenza to perform? How often does it function as more than a beater?

[Arianrhod]

I'm going to keep tinkering with this Night's Whisper / Living Wish Thune shell I've been working on. I actually think that Whisper+Wish might be strong enough to actually just be -better- than Top (in exactly that shell).

I don't promise much activity moving forward, but I'll try to drift through every once in a while. The complete lack of bans / unbans yesterday really demoralized me. I don't know what fantasy world the WotC staff who makes these decisions is living in, but it'd sure be nice to visit there. Must be nice this time of year.

I'll be at Eternal Weekend at the end of August, but at this point I'm planning on running 2x vintage (Trial on Saturday and main event on Sunday) instead of 1x Legacy / 1x Vintage.

[Paranoid__Android]

How have you found Anafenza to perform? How often does it function as more than a beater?

I put her in the maindeck totally random while going through my collection. And then, I thought about another mainboard hate on creature graveyard based decks that are often there in that metagame along with DRS and SCooze. I personally don't like Kitchen Finks very much at GSZ for three and wanted to se how can she perform in a legacy meta. In a few matches, she was really good pumping out Siege Rhinos, Veterans and so on, and then making opponents block her with everything they've got to kill her, often trading a 2-3 for 1. Zenithable, can return her with Karakas, out of the bolt range and a nice tempo beater. Very good card. But, she is, for now, my replacement for Wilt-Leaf Liege.

[Megadeus]

I'm going to keep tinkering with this Night's Whisper / Living Wish Thune shell I've been working on. I actually think that Whisper+Wish might be strong enough to actually just be -better- than Top (in exactly that shell).

I don't promise much activity moving forward, but I'll try to drift through every once in a while. The complete lack of bans / unbans yesterday really demoralized me. I don't know what fantasy world the WotC staff who makes these decisions is living in, but it'd sure be nice to visit there. Must be nice this time of year.

I'll be at Eternal Weekend at the end of August, but at this point I'm planning on running 2x vintage (Trial on Saturday and main event on Sunday) instead of 1x Legacy / 1x Vintage.
I'm thinking of picking up this deck again. It's been awhile since I played it though. anyone playing a BUG version with Dig through Times? This seemslike a Deck that could support the card nicely as a two of and with brainstorm and nights whisper could fuel it?

[Arianrhod]

I'm thinking of picking up this deck again. It's been awhile since I played it though. anyone playing a BUG version with Dig through Times? This seemslike a Deck that could support the card nicely as a two of and with brainstorm and nights whisper could fuel it?

Look for Tom4ik's list a couple of pages back. I've seen other lists on Council, but as far as I know he's the only active poster working on that style at the moment.

[Bobmans]

I'm thinking of picking up this deck again. It's been awhile since I played it though. anyone playing a BUG version with Dig through Times? This seemslike a Deck that could support the card nicely as a two of and with brainstorm and nights whisper could fuel it?

BUG list has been on my mind aswell for a long time, but what troubles me is what exactly are going to/try to find with all the cardadvantage and mana we create?
Are we going for a GSZ package or not? Or do we make a mix of GSZ targets with just 2 GSZ MD and run the value creatures that blue has to offer. What about a Planeswalker heavy list? Is BUG currently the right color splash to run? Is it fast enough to keep up or do we have tools to push our opponent to our level?
White splash and Red splash offer some great tools, but lack cardselection. Blue offers cardselection, but is somewhat lackluster in boardcontrol. I really want to run a deck that ramps into Jace, Clique and Tasigur. DTT is a must, but this deck is not the deck that exploits it to the fullest. While giving thus a lot of thought it just does not get me anywhere. Probably this is not to helpful, but i am hoping to tigger other to try to contribute into building a better/good BUG NicFit list.

[Megadeus]

The current list I'm testing out. I think it lacks a finisher:
1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Thragtusk
4 Brainstorm
3 Dig Through Time
3 Night's Whisper
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Innocent Blood
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
2 Negate
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Creeping Tar Pit

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Ashiok has always been a weird choice to me in any format outside of standard. Where is it helping the most? I can see the exile mill being very good in some situations (miracles mostly) but I feel like otherwise it isn't doing very much.

[Megadeus]

Ashiok has always been a weird choice to me in any format outside of standard. Where is it helping the most? I can see the mill being very good in some situations (miracles mostly) but I feel like otherwise it isn't doing very much.

It's a walker that is probably suited better in a deck with Deathrite that can come down on turn 2. I haven't admittedly tried this deck out ever. This is just kind of my starting list. I could see the argument againt her. Has there been any discussion to the new liliana here? It seems interesting at least in a list with slightly heavier reliance on creatures and more innocent blood to trigger her.

[PollePotDK]

Would love to see Tom4ik's BUG NicFit list - having trouble finding it pages back and not many lists else where :cry:

/PollePotDK

[Arianrhod]

It's a walker that is probably suited better in a deck with Deathrite that can come down on turn 2. I haven't admittedly tried this deck out ever. This is just kind of my starting list. I could see the argument againt her. Has there been any discussion to the new liliana here? It seems interesting at least in a list with slightly heavier reliance on creatures and more innocent blood to trigger her.

Ashiok is awesome.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Ashiok is awesome.Where have you liked it? Genuinely curious since it is a cool card. I'm just having trouble picturing where I'd rather have it than something like Jace or LotV which are where my mind went when looking at the walkers in Megas list.

I'm super on board with Kiora though. I played her in a McDarby-style planeswalker deck and her ult closed out a lot of slow games.

[jbone2016]

Ashiok is awesome.

Agreed. I play 2 in the main deck (and one in the board) of my modern Tezz deck.

[Arianrhod]

Where have you liked it? Genuinely curious since it is a cool card. I'm just having trouble picturing where I'd rather have it than something like Jace or LotV which are where my mind went when looking at the walkers in Megas list.

I'm super on board with Kiora though. I played her in a McDarby-style planeswalker deck and her ult closed out a lot of slow games.

I frequently run it as a 1-of either main or side in various UBx decks in legacy. I don't play modern, but it wouldn't take me much to talk me into it. I've run it in Nic Fit in the past, and I currently run 1 maindeck in my Grixis Pyromancer (control) deck. I've terrorized my local Death and taxes player with Ashiok sufficiently that he'll call Ashiok on Revoker before Jace or EE, when I run 2 copies of each in my deck vs 1 Ashiok. The card is actually -that- strong. It's also actually a wincon vs Miracles, which is entertaining. They can't pressure it sufficiently to get rid of it, and it just sits there quietly eating their deck and dicking up their Tops. Ashiok doesn't get anywhere near as much respect as the card deserves.

[Bobmans]

The current list I'm testing out. I think it lacks a finisher:
1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Thragtusk
4 Brainstorm
3 Dig Through Time
3 Night's Whisper
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Innocent Blood
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
2 Negate
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Here is the list of Tom4ik. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit/page75&p=882988#post882988)

Personally i am not feeling the combination of Innocent Blood and the GSZ package. Especially without the two towers. Also without Jace to bounce your own creatues. The GSZ package looks good. Those creatures i have been digging up the most or have been most important. I would probably replace the Innocent Blood with Abrupt Decay. Silumgar looks really sweet, kills DnT for sure. Plus it provides a solid game vs Grixis Pyrodude.
While the Night's Whisper feed Dig Through Time i am not liking that it is a one shot effect in a deck that goes the long game. Also it seems that 3 Dig Through Time is stretching it with this deck. 2 should be sufficient. I would also like to recommend running Tasigur, at least as a one of. In combination with Dig it becomes dangerous since you are able to keep your own graveyard "clean" and ramp into mana fast enough to abuse his ability. Then there are various other blue creatures that are useful in this deck such as Snapcaster Mage, Notion Thief, Glen-Elendra Archmage and Consecrated Sphinx, just to name a few.

Other finishers could be:
Sagu Mauler (GSZ target)
Aetherling

And blue/green tech:
Trygon Predator
Edric, Spymaster of Trest

Anyway, with the recommendations i come to the following (and yes i am pusing thru the 3 SDT alternatives):

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Thragtusk
3 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Negate

4 Brainstorm
2 Dig Through Time
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
1 Diabolic Intent

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver


1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta

[Echelon]

1-off (green) utility creatures, but no GSZ..? And Ashiok..? What the shit?

I honestly think you try to cram too much stuff into that list.

[Bobmans]

1-off (green) utility creatures, but no GSZ..? And Ashiok..? What the shit?

I honestly think you try to cram too much stuff into that list.
Lol i forgot to include 2 of them.
Also if people want to play Ashiok for the formentioned reasons then i'll just try to keep it in.
I am not discarding any possibilities or ideas to the deck.
You sir are only here to act like you know it all and discard "out-of-the-box" ideas saying it is crap. Just out of curiosity, do you even like NicFit? Shouldnt you be playing streamlined delver decks?

[Echelon]

Lol i forgot to include 2 of them.
Also if people want to play Ashiok for the formentioned reasons then i'll just try to keep it in.
I am not discarding any possibilities or ideas to the deck.
You sir are only here to act like you know it all and discard "out-of-the-box" ideas saying it is crap. Just out of curiosity, do you even like NicFit? Shouldnt you be playing streamlined delver decks?

Nic Fit is my happy-deck. It's what I run when I want to have a smile from ear to ear (hence the Summoner's Eggs-build, fuck yes!). Funnily enough, anyDelver.dec is the last thing I like to play.

I don't quite know it all, but some ideas are left outside of the box for good reasons. The same way as stuff goes into the box for good reasons. Plus, a lot of what goes around here ignores the opportunity cost of things. Sure, some stuff can be pretty cool, but can it compete with what has become run-off-the-mill stuff for good reason? Often, unfortunately the answer is no.

That's probably just the downside of playing Elves!/Manaless Dredge for extended periods of time. There, discussion boils down to "Does it kill quicker/more easily than NO to Craterhoof (or why does it cost 4+ and doesn't it say "I win"?)/Dread Return a Balustrade Spy & combo out? If not, it just makes the deck worse". Sorry about that.

Don't get me wrong, I do love to get my Timmy and Johnny on, but I look at my own stuff the same way as I do at that of others. I dick about with various builds of my Timmy Nic Fit (yes, I do register my lists in tournaments under that name), Manaless Dredge and Elves! but most of them never even see the day of light (or get posted) simply b/c they don't improve upon the current build. Innovation doesn't equal improvement :wink:. Nevertheless it's crucial to keep innovating b/c at some point one will find something that improves upon the set standard. Just don't ever get discouraged when ideas get shot down. Besides, what's stopping one to stick to their ideas? :wink:

[Arianrhod]

Nic Fit is my happy-deck. It's what I run when I want to have a smile from ear to ear (hence the Summoner's Eggs-build, fuck yes!). Funnily enough, anyDelver.dec is the last thing I like to play.

I don't quite know it all, but some ideas are left outside of the box for good reasons. The same way as stuff goes into the box for good reasons. Plus, a lot of what goes around here ignores the opportunity cost of things. Sure, some stuff can be pretty cool, but can it compete with what has become run-off-the-mill stuff for good reason? Often, unfortunately the answer is no.

That's probably just the downside of playing Elves!/Manaless Dredge for extended periods of time. There, discussion boils down to "Does it kill quicker/more easily than NO to Craterhoof (or why does it cost 4+ and doesn't it say "I win"?)/Dread Return a Balustrade Spy & combo out? If not, it just makes the deck worse". Sorry about that.

Don't get me wrong, I do love to get my Timmy and Johnny on, but I look at my own stuff the same way as I do at that of others. I dick about with various builds of my Timmy Nic Fit (yes, I do register my lists in tournaments under that name), Manaless Dredge and Elves! but most of them never even see the day of light (or get posted) simply b/c they don't improve upon the current build. Innovation doesn't equal improvement :wink:. Nevertheless it's crucial to keep innovating b/c at some point one will find something that improves upon the set standard. Just don't ever get discouraged when ideas get shot down. Besides, what's stopping one to stick to their ideas? :wink:

Nic Fit is like a tier 3 deck right now anyway. It's fallen a long way from its glory days in the Maverick/Esperblade/Miracles/Sneak&Show days. Most of the problem is Dig Through Time, but Tasigur and Angler are also an issue. We just can't compete when the cantrip cartel is capable of playing our lategame cheaper/sooner/with better support than we can. It's unfortunate, but such is the way of things. We just need to wait for a Dig ban and/or the metagame to change.

Until then, who really cares what people play in the shell? Let them have fun with whatever.

And I'll repeat: Ashiok is the tits. Don't knock it it until you've tried it.

[Megadeus]

Nic Fit is like a tier 3 deck right now anyway. It's fallen a long way from its glory days in the Maverick/Esperblade/Miracles/Sneak&Show days. Most of the problem is Dig Through Time, but Tasigur and Angler are also an issue. We just can't compete when the cantrip cartel is capable of playing our lategame cheaper/sooner/with better support than we can. It's unfortunate, but such is the way of things. We just need to wait for a Dig ban and/or the metagame to change.

Until then, who really cares what people play in the shell? Let them have fun with whatever.

And I'll repeat: Ashiok is the tits. Don't knock it it until you've tried it.

Hence why I'm attempting to play cards like Dig and such right now. It seems like the BUG shell is still pretty unsolved at the moment. I don't claim to be a master deck builder or anything, I just think that it's the most interesting combination due to the lengthy list of options. I'd also like to maybe toy with a 4 color Intuition Demigod build, but I'm sure it's not good

[Bobmans]

Nic Fit is my happy-deck. ....

And that is how we should threat it. I agree with everything you write. I really do. Some choices may be less (or not at all) competative and some will suprise you/me. I play NicFit exactly because what is writen in the first couple of paragraphs in the OP. So i'll let my enthousiasm go all over the place. Sometimes i am pushing to get a streamlined competative list, while sometimes i will go wide to try cute things. Discussing it, argumenting and having contstructive critisism is fine. But i just do not feel that we should bring the unnecessary competative negative critic we see in other threads in this one. To improve this deck you need to think open minded (and learn from experience), please do not punish people for doing that. I hope you understand.




Nic Fit is like a tier 3 deck right now anyway.
Most of the problem is Dig Through Time, but Tasigur and Angler are also an issue.

And I'll repeat: Ashiok is the tits. Don't knock it it until you've tried it.

JUNK NicFit is propably our best bet at competative play (not sure where ScapeWish currently at). It has answers for those fatties while also being able to sweep board filled with pyrodude or mentor. Also the hate bear package is pretty good. Currently i have a SFM list ready for a tournament (just 2 Siege Rhino).

[Dzogchen]

Hey everyone,

I'd like to run this by the group and see what people's thoughts are.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=179512&type=card

I was really looking for a creature, that was a sac outlet, that could be GSZ'd for and found this guy. I've just found myself in situations where I found myself thinking 'boy I wish I could go fetch some sort of sac outlet'. Anyone else think that? I'm probably just crazy but I could see some applications. It's even got flash too, so like...flash it in, sac vet, get your lands, block a dude, etc.

[pettdan]

@Dzogchen: Sac outlets are an important theme for this deck. I think my personal favorite in the 3 CMC slot is Varolz, the Scar-Striped. It does present a pretty good threat in drawn out games with the scavenge ability, depending on your creature suite and recursion options. It still rarely makes it into decks.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Starved rusalka is another option that is slightly cheaper to get going.

[Dzogchen]

Thanks for the suggestions! I saw Rusalka and thought about it, but I'd really like for the sac part to be free. I guess the question is really 'Do we think that having a creature sac target is a worth the spot?' Then, if so, are any of these good enough? There are a few more with the devour mechanic, but they all cost way to much. If you had the mana to get them, you would need to do it in the first place. 3 or less would seem ideal to me.

I've had games where it was just my board of 2 vets, and they had either flyers or wouldnt attack into them, and I couldnt sac them. I could image the Slime being good to get or flash in, sac both, get a 4/4 and a bunch of lands.

[adrieng]

I have been testing some lists with some ok results recently:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17579&iddeck=132288

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17506&iddeck=131719

I am now on this list :

4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Forest
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
2 Taiga
1 Bayou

4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Expedition Map
4 Crop Rotation
4 Vampire Hexmage

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pyroblast

2 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Eternal Witness
3 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer

SB: 3 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction



Adding safekeeper here gives lot of option either with titania or with marit lage. The list is a mix of both previous lists
and it is better. I don't like deeds in the main they have been good depending of the matchups.

[maharis]

So I'm sure most people ITT have thought about the new liliana + cabal therapy. But I was browsing some lists recently and remembered that our deck is also able to play Sakura Tribe-Elder, and I think that may be something we can really abuse.

I haven't played the Scapeshift version before, but that's where I was going. So I started drawing up a list, keeping these points in mind:

-Liliana and Vet/Therapy or STE is turbo-ramp. That gets us to our magic 7 lands faster than before
-Dark Petition exists, and we can feasibly cast it to find Liliana or other goodies that we might need
-To turn on Spell Mastery, we need to play more instants and sorceries that hit our GY (This turns off GSZ as a good option, but allows us to go down the Night's Whisper route. Also we probably want to play Thoughtseize/Duress effects to protect our combo)

I think these are the cards we want to choose from:

Veteran Explorer
Liliana, Heretical Healer
Sakura Tribe-Elder
Eternal Witness (to get back Dark Petition)
Some plan b/value creatures (Huntmaster? Obstinate Baloth? We may use life total aggressively)

Cabal Therapy
Gitaxian Probe (spell mastery/draw power)
Dark Petition
Night's Whisper
Scapeshift
Thoughtseize
Abrupt Decay
Maelstrom Pulse
Commune with Nature
Slaughter Games

As much as I've ragged on the card, Evolutionary Leap also could be good here, as it sacs our vets and Zombie tokens to find more vets/lilis/tribe-elders. But no spell mastery from that.

Anyone think this idea could give the archetype a lift?

[thotcrime]

While I like the idea of abusing the new Lili, I feel like that's a lot of dedicated card slots to assemble an inept combo. The planeswalker is good but not gamebreaking. And you need attractive GY targets to make her -X ability any good. In the right shell (maybe GB?) it could prove to be a solid value engine, but I don't think it can just be plugged into a relatively concrete strategy like Scapewish. Also, if I'm personally casting Dark Petition I will likely use it to grab 1. Liliana of the Veil or 2. Toxic Deluge. Bells are chiming in my head.

[Bobmans]

I have been testing some lists with some ok results recently:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17579&iddeck=132288

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17506&iddeck=131719

I am now on this list :

4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Forest
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
2 Taiga
1 Bayou

4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Expedition Map
4 Crop Rotation
4 Vampire Hexmage

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pyroblast

2 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Eternal Witness
3 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer

SB: 3 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction



Adding safekeeper here gives lot of option either with titania or with marit lage. The list is a mix of both previous lists
and it is better. I don't like deeds in the main they have been good depending of the matchups.

Looks interesting, i have a couple of questions:

How fast are you able to deploy a winning Marit Lage?
What do your typical games look like in the current meta?
What is the benefit into running Veteran Explorer in a (Turbo) Depths deck?

Thanks

[Tom4ik]

I just now noticed last page ppl where looking into DTT bug lists. I have been busy so not able to play legacy as much lately. But I think that is a great place to be. I would start at 2-3 dig and 3 jace as the CA engines. I am running 4 probes but could see 2 ponder and open up two more spots but probe is great for game 1 early therapy and turns therapy into an actual discard spell if we know we dont need to just name smth to not die.

For those that say what do we do with all the cards drawn. Lily/Jace backed by deed provide more than enough defense withforce and decay. you will find a tarpit or thrun or whatever to kill them.

I have been more into vintage lately (won a trop today with a grixis thieves list).

[Arianrhod]

I just now noticed last page ppl where looking into DTT bug lists. I have been busy so not able to play legacy as much lately. But I think that is a great place to be. I would start at 2-3 dig and 3 jace as the CA engines. I am running 4 probes but could see 2 ponder and open up two more spots but probe is great for game 1 early therapy and turns therapy into an actual discard spell if we know we dont need to just name smth to not die.

For those that say what do we do with all the cards drawn. Lily/Jace backed by deed provide more than enough defense withforce and decay. you will find a tarpit or thrun or whatever to kill them.

I have been more into vintage lately (won a trop today with a grixis thieves list).

Grixis Thieves is my jam in vintage too. It always amuses me how similar Nic Fit players' tastes tend to be cross-format...more so than most other communities of deck players, I think.

[adrieng]

Looks interesting, i have a couple of questions:

How fast are you able to deploy a winning Marit Lage?
What do your typical games look like in the current meta?
What is the benefit into running Veteran Explorer in a (Turbo) Depths deck?

Thanks

The marit lage token can be made as fast as turn 2. It depends of the matchups but deck without swords/terminus
are usually beaten with dark depth (UR/grixis/Bug tempo/jund/shardless/RUGtempo/combo.decks).
It is also a clock vs combo, where nic fit.classi (which I have been testing) had some problem in finding it.

The big advantage of this version over turbo depth is titania, titania+safekeeper/crop is the nuts and you can do that against decks like maverick
/aggro loam/death and taxes/stoneblade.decks thanks to crop into tower/cabal to sac veteran. While these matchups were winnable with turbo depth they become very easy with this version and even more after side when your brind deed.
The miracle matchup is also improved with titanaia/witness/deed after side.
Top also allows to find hate faster against combo compare to sylvan library but storm is still a difficult matchup.

I am convinced that this version improved both turbodepth and nic fit (which I think classic version is a bit weak to DTT.chain/YP.token/Monastery.token/show and tell). I think right now doing one for one with removals is not really a possibility.
Here you have the option to do broken things and win fast.

[thotcrime]

Grixis Thieves is my jam in vintage too. It always amuses me how similar Nic Fit players' tastes tend to be cross-format...more so than most other communities of deck players, I think.

very off topic here, but how did you guys acquire power cards??


To Junk players: Have we considered Eladamri's Call? Would it be worth running a split between Call and Diabolic Intent?

[Bobmans]

very off topic here, but how did you guys acquire power cards??


To Junk players: Have we considered Eladamri's Call? Would it be worth running a split between Call and Diabolic Intent?

They robbed a bank (or LGS).

[sdematt]

I bought beta power because I have too much money. Came out of the Ferrari fund, but that's okay. Ill start posting again after Wednesday.

[uncletiggy]

I need money matt ;-)

I've also been on the titania/lage plan. Im on three colors and done some refining to my list, its still not balanced yet.

@adrieng your list is fast and consistant but how has omnitell or any show match been for you with the light splash for pyroblast. I feel like its not enough and leaves you weak to storm as well. White gets you knight teeg swords and things like cataclysm and various other hate depending on your meta.

[Arianrhod]

very off topic here, but how did you guys acquire power cards??


To Junk players: Have we considered Eladamri's Call? Would it be worth running a split between Call and Diabolic Intent?

I won my Recall in a tournament, and just very slowed traded for / used tax refunds for the rest over a period of like 2-3 years. My Lotus was acquired at a modern GP, traded in my set of Goyfs (CFB was buying them at 150 cash at the event because it was a modern GP and they were sold out and needed them), my english Tabernacle, and a pile of standard garbage...got it for 1700 trade. Considering I bought my Goyfs years ago for like 240/set and my Tabernacle was purchased for like 180 in 2009 or 2010........yeah. I did pretty good :)

Getting power is definitely a lot rougher now than it used to be. I'm very grateful I got it when I did and can enjoy it now without worrying so much about it.

[jbone2016]

very off topic here, but how did you guys acquire power cards??


To Junk players: Have we considered Eladamri's Call? Would it be worth running a split between Call and Diabolic Intent?

I have run both in Junk. I like Intent but have cut it for now. I was thinking about altar of bone a little.

So, I did go to SCG Chicago for Standard/Legacy. 1-3 drop in standard, played my young frankenstein brew in the challenge to a 2-2 finish.

I played my junk list on Sunday to a 4-1-3 finish. Yes....3 draws.
Brief summary.
Drew with shardless bug.
Beat Omni-tell in 3.
Beat grixis delver in 3.
Lost to D and T in 3.
Drew with Maverick. Would have lost in a couple of more turns.
Beat Miracles in 3.
Beat Maverick in 2.
Drew with UWR Blade.

I'll get a list up tomorrow when I have more time.

[Leoj]

Here's a junk list I've put together that I'd like to get on MTGO and start jamming in dailies. I'm not super-familiar with the metagame so no idea what I should be sideboarding. I mostly put this list together after looking at a lot of various ones in this topic.


3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Sun Titan

2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed

2 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windswept Heath


SB:

2 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Golgari Charm
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Leyline of the Void


Some questions I had:

-Is anyone familiar with the MTGO meta? Just wondering if there's any tuning I can do to the deck to make it better.
-I'm choosing to run non-top card selection. Is this still a good idea? That's also why I'm running Sun Titan, so I suppose if I just ran 3x top I could pick a different green 6-drop for that spot, too.
-Is a 3/4 split of DRS/Explorer still reasonable? I know I've seen some lists run only 1 DRS.
-Should Swords be Path to Exile instead? I imagine if we're giving people basics off Explorer we don't care about giving them basics via path.
-Baneslayer seems neat to brick Griselbrand, but I'm afraid since it's non-green it'll be hard to find. Is there something better I can run in that slot?

Appreciate any feedback you can give me. I haven't bought the cards yet (still trying to play games before I do) but this is what I've got so far.

[jbone2016]

Alright, the list.

Dudes-16
3 Veteran Explorer (3 seems like the best amount, usually a dead draw late. I will go down to one vs decks with a few basics)
1 Deathrite Shaman (has been iffy lately, deathrite wars are not something that I enjoy)
1 Gaddock Teeg (combo killer, decent against miracles as well)
1 Scavenging Ooze (late game fattie)
3 Stoneforge Mystic (have been thinking about going to 4 with more of a maverick build.)
1 Reclamation Sage (the batterskull killer as a call it)
1 Eternal Witness (good in non-ooze/DRS matchups, thinking about a second)
1 Aven Mindcensor (has been on low end lately-probably getting cut for something bigger)
2 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Non-Dudes-22
3 Sensei's Divining Top (so glad it wasn't banned)
4 Cabal Therapy (best play on sunday....on the play-game 1, opponent mulls to 6.....I blind name brainstorm....hit 2. Yes, I crushed that game.)
1 Thoughtseize (I either want 0 or 2 in the main, this was kinda of odd)
2 Swords to Plowshares (seems to be a good number unless a lot of mirran crusaders are around, then 3)
3 Green Sun's Zenith (If I had more green creatures/less mystics, I'll go to 4)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Abrupt Decay (was 2 for a while, 3 seems better in a miracles meta)
2 Pernicious Deed (I sometimes missed the 3rd one vs the creature decks)
1 Toxic Deluge (Deluge isn't a bad replacement, however)
1 Sword of Fire and Ice (such a clock)
1 Batterskull (Voltron piece)

Lands-23 (I had been at 22 forever but mulligans were an issue)
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Windswepth Heath
3 Verdnant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas

Sideboard
1 Sword of Feast and Famine (I was considering cutting but it tons of work vs Omni)
1 Pithing Needle (last minute addition that wasn't bad vs Miracles and DRS)
2 Choke (I like making blue players cry)
1 Golgari Charm (Has been a staple in the 76 for a while, not main deckable right now but still very good)
1 Krosan Grip (Another late change...probably won me a game vs Omni. He saw it with a probe, so he never attempted to go off when I had 3 mana open)
1 Ethersworn Canonist (Been in the board for a while, Has been alright)
1 Thoughtseize (see above, depends on meta)
1 Dryad Militant (one of the oddballs. Sweet against storm/dredge and keeps a goyf in check at times)
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction (two of the flex spots-probably will be something else now)
2 Containment Priest (never was really relevant on Sunday but has shown value before)
1 Nether Void (As much as I love showing this card off, it hasn't done much lately. Dig is still good for 3 mana)
1 Humility (always had to cut this card...probably still won't)

Flyers still seem to be a problem for the deck. Thinking about Dromoka again.

[bruizar]

I don't think you ever want to cut down on veteran explorers. Being able to fast forward the early game to the late game is exactly why this deck is playable in the first place. Foregoing veteran explorer just makes this a slow deck full of bombs.

[Echelon]

Besides, vs. the (fair) decks running basics, you're going bigger then them anyway. I would have run Path to Exile over Swords though, if you need to eat your own creatures to safe yourself you're probably going to lose anyway.

[Bobmans]

Here's a junk list I've put together that I'd like to get on MTGO and start jamming in dailies. I'm not super-familiar with the metagame so no idea what I should be sideboarding. I mostly put this list together after looking at a lot of various ones in this topic.


3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Sun Titan

2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed

2 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windswept Heath


SB:

2 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Golgari Charm
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Leyline of the Void


Some questions I had:

-Is anyone familiar with the MTGO meta? Just wondering if there's any tuning I can do to the deck to make it better.
-I'm choosing to run non-top card selection. Is this still a good idea? That's also why I'm running Sun Titan, so I suppose if I just ran 3x top I could pick a different green 6-drop for that spot, too.
-Is a 3/4 split of DRS/Explorer still reasonable? I know I've seen some lists run only 1 DRS.
-Should Swords be Path to Exile instead? I imagine if we're giving people basics off Explorer we don't care about giving them basics via path.
-Baneslayer seems neat to brick Griselbrand, but I'm afraid since it's non-green it'll be hard to find. Is there something better I can run in that slot?

Appreciate any feedback you can give me. I haven't bought the cards yet (still trying to play games before I do) but this is what I've got so far.


I have no experience with MTGO and will keep it that way. That said.
The best way to go is just to start playing the list as is and tune it along you go based on your own experience.

The cards you are running instead of top are untested in NicFit, but with the threat of losing top that was exactly what i was planning on running. To be honest i actually am planning on running that instead of top just to see how it goes. Sun Titan is an excellent card to run next to this configuration. The thing with non green creatures in the deck is that somehow they keep floating up during the (long) games tou want them to.
Baneslayer on the other hand is a card you'd typically want faster, so one-of arent to great. I that some serious testing and had a number of tournaments where i ran Stormbreath Dragon. You will want to run 2 copies. They show up midgame pretty consistent and thats where youd want them. So the one Baneslayer is questionable, but with Sun Titan you dont want more copies.
Also you are very hihh in the mana curve with sun titan, dromoka, sigarda, baneslayer, tasigur and thragtusk. This needs fixing. Yes Tasigur often comes down as a one mana creatures, but still. Tasigur is an oddball anyway, with Eternal Witness, Volrath's Stronghold and a Sun Titan he might not be needed. Also Sigarda and Thrun in one deck is questionable. I would defenitly swap Thrun for Rhino nr 2. I'd probably just cut Baneslayer and Tasigur for Gaddock Teeg main and another swords or path.
Swords vs Path is to your preference. I personally play Path in NicFit since i hate to give 20 against Marit Lage.dec Also with symmetrical effect of Veteran Explorer the downside of Path can often be ignored or sometimes even there is no side effect.
Finally i prefer a 3/4 split between Veteran Explorer and Deathrite Shaman. But this depends on the meta/build.
DRS fixes ramp vs Combo/Burn/Miracles heavy meta where Veteran Explorer is less good. DRS also is a removal magnet which can be used in our benefit. Ie keeping Courser alive longer for him to create card advantage.

[Leoj]

I have no experience with MTGO and will keep it that way. That said.
The best way to go is just to start playing the list as is and tune it along you go based on your own experience.

The cards you are running instead of top are untested in NicFit, but with the threat of losing top that was exactly what i was planning on running. To be honest i actually am planning on running that instead of top just to see how it goes. Sun Titan is an excellent card to run next to this configuration. The thing with non green creatures in the deck is that somehow they keep floating up during the (long) games tou want them to.
Baneslayer on the other hand is a card you'd typically want faster, so one-of arent to great. I that some serious testing and had a number of tournaments where i ran Stormbreath Dragon. You will want to run 2 copies. They show up midgame pretty consistent and thats where youd want them. So the one Baneslayer is questionable, but with Sun Titan you dont want more copies.
Also you are very hihh in the mana curve with sun titan, dromoka, sigarda, baneslayer, tasigur and thragtusk. This needs fixing. Yes Tasigur often comes down as a one mana creatures, but still. Tasigur is an oddball anyway, with Eternal Witness, Volrath's Stronghold and a Sun Titan he might not be needed. Also Sigarda and Thrun in one deck is questionable. I would defenitly swap Thrun for Rhino nr 2. I'd probably just cut Baneslayer and Tasigur for Gaddock Teeg main and another swords or path.
Swords vs Path is to your preference. I personally play Path in NicFit since i hate to give 20 against Marit Lage.dec Also with symmetrical effect of Veteran Explorer the downside of Path can often be ignored or sometimes even there is no side effect.
Finally i prefer a 3/4 split between Veteran Explorer and Deathrite Shaman. But this depends on the meta/build.
DRS fixes ramp vs Combo/Burn/Miracles heavy meta where Veteran Explorer is less good. DRS also is a removal magnet which can be used in our benefit. Ie keeping Courser alive longer for him to create card advantage.

Thanks for the advice! I'll make some changes and start jamming test games. MTGO isn't ideal, but there's no one that plays Legacy around here and it's a pretty fun format, so that's what I'm stuck with. :P

[InkedIrishman]

I also play exclusively on MTGO simply due to work and time constraints, I can play at any point. The meta on there, from my experience at least, is that it's simply open. There's no dominating deck or deck type so you need to be prepared for it all. Had great results with my JunkFit list.

4 Vet Explorer
3 Birds of Paradise
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Knight of the Rel
1 Wilt-leaf Liege
3 Siege Rhino
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herions

4 GSZ
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Sylvan Library
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed

1 Garruk, Relentless

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Plains

Sideboard is ever-changing and personal preference but is things like Moat, another BSA, Thalia, Relics. Any questions, dont hesitate to ask. I know some of the choices are odd.

[thotcrime]

I personally think DRS needs to be included in the core considering how heavily peppered legacy is with fast combo. It's one of our only hopes of winning game 1 against Storm, Dredge, Delver etc.

This is just me daydreaming, but what do you think of Demonic Pact? I feel like it can produce juice to end a game quickly enough, and worst case scenario we can pop it with a Deed. Shrug.

[lavafrogg]

I personally think DRS needs to be included in the core considering how heavily peppered legacy is with fast combo. It's one of our only hopes of winning game 1 against Storm, Dredge, Delver etc.

This is just me daydreaming, but what do you think of Demonic Pact? I feel like it can produce juice to end a game quickly enough, and worst case scenario we can pop it with a Deed. Shrug.

Perilous Research suddenly seems very playable.

[Echelon]

It's mostly cute.

[sdematt]

I like Junk a bit because we can still jam 4 Canonists and a bunch of Grips and hopefully call those two matchups a day. However, Jund gets you REB and Games, and BUG, should it get off the ground, can obviously play Force, FS, and Grip. I played against BUG at Prague Eternal and crushed the ever loving garbage out of the guy. I just don't REALLY know what I want out of a BUG shell right now.

[Arianrhod]

I like Junk a bit because we can still jam 4 Canonists and a bunch of Grips and hopefully call those two matchups a day. However, Jund gets you REB and Games, and BUG, should it get off the ground, can obviously play Force, FS, and Grip. I played against BUG at Prague Eternal and crushed the ever loving garbage out of the guy. I just don't REALLY know what I want out of a BUG shell right now.

That's the problem BUG has had since day 1, unfortunately. There's all these sweet things you can do in "big blue" decks, and you obviously gain access to some ludicrous anti-combo cards (you left out Glen Elendra Archmage, for example, which can be as much of a nightmare for combo as Slaughter Games is). The problem is there is no clear game plan. There's all these reactive options, but there's no combos or plans other than just value-grinding your opponent to death.

I've really been wanting to make a Helmline bug list, but it's been defying me every step of the way while trying to design it. Perilous Research might actually be a missing link there, since my main issue was always what to do with redundant leylines and I couldn't come up with a good solution. Saccing them for cards seems fine.

Demonic Pact is hot garbage though, I'm pretty sure.

[Richard Cheese]

That's the problem BUG has had since day 1, unfortunately. There's all these sweet things you can do in "big blue" decks, and you obviously gain access to some ludicrous anti-combo cards (you left out Glen Elendra Archmage, for example, which can be as much of a nightmare for combo as Slaughter Games is). The problem is there is no clear game plan. There's all these reactive options, but there's no combos or plans other than just value-grinding your opponent to death.

Isn't that pretty much the name of the game in Legacy now? I don't see anything wrong with just leaning on Explorer to go over the top of your opponent to value town. Lotion Thief, Glen Elendra, Jace, and what about the best creature in Legacy, Rainbow Efreet. All backed up by Deed, Decay, and counters? You'd need to run more hard counters, but that shouldn't be that big of an issue with the manabase, and could actually be another benefit to the Explorer package. My biggest problem is still wanting to run GSZ to make finding those Explorers consistent + some kind of associated toolbox, but maybe it's just correct to sell your soul and run Brainstorm/Ponder. If something as goofy and awkward as Shardless BUG can make it in Legacy, there has to be a competitive BUG Fit list.

[Tom4ik]

I run brainstorm and gitaxian probe right now but could be sold on ponder in that spot. Although I wouldnt run 4 ponder. I just dont think GSZ is needed in bug decks. I like running more blue (so Strix and Snapcaster) and being able to play FOW main. This gives the deck a more 50/50 feel than most lists as by doing that you lose some edge in the grindy matchups. I still like that as backing jace up with both force and deed provides more than enough value. If you are worried about win cons in the deck drop some of the lilys or 1 dig and add smth like Tasigur which was great for me when I was only on 2 dig.

Losing GSZ does reduce the vets you have access to immediately but I think the trade off is that of the nic fit decks I have played this is the most consistent at playing a normal game when you cannot ramp.

It MAY be at a disadvantage in the mirror but since when is the the nic fit mirror a consideration for a version? If you want to play nicfit to beat up on tempo and midrange decks punishing fire and/or the junk version will do that better. If you want to have a deck that has a more even spread of matchups then I think a bug control version is going to be better. This is all IMO.

[Richard Cheese]

As much as it pains me to admit it, DTT is probably correct for BUG. I'm just wondering if a BUG version needs any of the usual over the top fatties, or does it just grind out with resilient/utility dudes + Jace as alternate?

[Bobmans]

The non green, but blue creatures deliver "better" utility then green/blue green creatures offer. Obviously the better creatures are in Junk or Jund colors. Therefor i would prefer running a non GSZ list.
Thinking about BUG lists just give me headaches... like said, there is no clear gameplan. But ramping into Jace and protect him with value creatures might be solid enough. So far this is what i came up with:

Main 60
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Baleful Strix
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Thragtusk
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Dig Through Time
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
5 slots open for countermagic/Thoughtseize, but i am not sure where to go from there.
6 Duals
6 Basics
8 fetch
2 utility (Two Towers?)

Space is so tight...

[uncletiggy]

Right off the bat id say -1 scooze -2 ponder +1 strix +2 probe. Then three force and two flew slots. Maybe another tasigur and another cliq or two innocent blood. You could even go two glen elandra based on the meta.

[Bobmans]

Right off the bat id say -1 scooze -2 ponder +1 strix +2 probe. Then three force and two flew slots. Maybe another tasigur and another cliq or two innocent blood. You could even go two glen elandra based on the meta.
Probably even:
- Scooze
+2 Snapcaster Mage
+2 Ponder
+4 Force of will
Although i am not so sure what i would want to Snap back with the SCM.
1 Glen-Elendra Archmage and 1 Notion Thief are nice aswell. Also a card the i really like is Aetherling. An evasive beater that can easily go defensive protecting Jace. Also lategame we can sink mana in the card. The card reminds me of the times Morphling was a thing.

[Ralf]

As much as it pains me to admit it, DTT is probably correct for BUG. I'm just wondering if a BUG version needs any of the usual over the top fatties, or does it just grind out with resilient/utility dudes + Jace as alternate?

I guess you can go either ways.
I like playing sort of a combo in my BUG list as games tend to be really really grindy and having a I WIN button will at least help you closing G3.

I'm not sure whether we really need to play DTT or not.

From experience with BUG fit, I avoid playing any cards with UU/GG/BB that are not at least CMC =/>4.
Getting U/B/G as your first basic lands are more often than not a matter of life or death.
Speaking of which I usually fetch for swamp and then for a tropical so that you can cast everything against a non wasteland deck.

[maharis]

On the subject of BUG builds, this is an old Mystical Teachings build I was tooling around with. Haven't tested it in a while. I think this was Treasure Cruise era because I wanted to jam Notion Thief. Would also explain the Thragtusk and Chimera. I think I would add more counters and Snapcasters today. Maybe even something like a Mystic Snake or Plasm Capture.

2x Bayou
2x Forest
3x Island
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Phyrexian Tower
3x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp
2x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs

2x Pernicious Deed

1x Baleful Strix
1x Horizon Chimera
2x Notion Thief
1x Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1x Thragtusk
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
4x Veteran Explorer

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Gitaxian Probe
1x Green Sun's Zenith

2x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
1x Consume the Meek
1x Dig Through Time
4x Force of Will
3x Mystical Teachings

2x Abrupt Decay
2x Chill
3x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pernicious Deed
3x Pithing Needle
4x Swan Song

[Chaam]

I was thinking of trying out a BUG build that used Vet, Dorks and Lotus Cobra to ramp alongside counters, Jace and Consecrated Sphinx. What do you guys think? Maybe something like this:

Creatures (14)
4 Vet
1 DRS
1 Ooze
4 Lotus Cobra
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
2 Consecrated Sphinx

Planeswalker (2)
2 JTMS

Sorcery (10)
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 GSZ

Instant (10)
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will

Enchantment (3)
1 Sylvan Library
2 Pernicious Deed

Lands (21)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Island
2 Forest
2 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
4 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
1 Glen Elendra
1 JTMS
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Nihil Spellbomb

Thoughts? I've only ever really played vs. Nic Fit but I am interested in possibly playing it.

[Bobmans]

@ 4 Gitaxian Probe, why? The card is at its best G1, T1 on the play. For the rest of the match it just becomes worse topdeck. I'd prefer Ponder over Probe since that the card is miles better mid/lategame. Granting you card selection and another shuffle effect that makes your Brainstorm/Jacestorm better.
@ Teferi/Mystical Teachings. This is a very high commitment just to be able search your non flash creatures for 4! mana even. Having acces to a Force of Will can be ok i guess. But i'd rather be using slots for more versataille or higher impact cards.

@ Horizon Chimera: Vendilion Clique is worth more in that slot. Also for lifegain i will be sticking with Thragtusk since that card makes impact when it enters the battlefield.

@ Lotus Cobra. The card is conditional. You will find yourself wanting to get mana out of it, but lacking the landdrops/veteran trigger. Or the other way around. Lacking a solid card to drop out of the mana. I would run Deathrite Shaman as a playset. The card not only helps you ramp, it also solid vs combo and helps you stabilize against fast decks like burn.

as for my list:
I'll settle for:
+1 Ponder
+1 Strix
+4 FoW
-1 Scooze

Not sure if i want additional creatures like Glen-elandra or Notion Thief. I'll see from there.

Edit: Like i said, space is tight. I do, however, find the lack of additional countermagic or discard rather frustrating.

[uncletiggy]

We can agree to disagree on the fourth fow. I dont think you're a force deck you dont need it in most matches it's often the first card you should be siding out as nic fit and in the matches where you do have to force or die it might get you there game one and it might just be duressed away or recieve a force back. It gives you some percentage points game one but in the long run I dont think 4 main is right in anything other then a +20% omni/storm meta. If that's your meta then your playing the deck for fun and that slot should just be a super spicy one of anyway.

[Bobmans]

It gives you some percentage points game one but in the long run I dont think 4 main is right in anything other then a +20% omni/storm meta. If that's your meta then your playing the deck for fun and that slot should just be a super spicy one of anyway.

Good point. I'll have to think about it what to do with it. Putting FoW entirely into the board does open the main for some space.

I have run a few testgames and the list seems to ramp into an early Jace pretty smooth and does a decend job protecting it. The plus to run it in a NicFit shell is that you shift into grinding the game out with Jace faster then regular BUG control AND you simply have more means to be able to protect it. Also it applies more pressure much faster then BUGstill does. Also Pernicious Deed is an important factor here.
But i do feel rather "soft" to combo. The sideboard has to be dedicated to fight combo, nothing new to NicFit anyway. So i do feel right with putting Force into the board and strengthen the fair matchup game 1.
Perhaps +2 Thoughtseize or Liliana of the Veil, +1 Maelstrom Pulse or Vraska the Unseen and +1 Glen-Elendra Archmage or Eternal Witness. I do not see the point in running Snapcaster Mage in this deck. There are not to many usefull cards to flash. Swords to Plowshares or Lightning Bolt make much more sense to run Snappie. Eternal Witness can bring back everything and still there is the option to loop Witness. We lack GSZ to find it, but with all the Brainstorm, Ponder, Dig and Jace action you should be able to find it pretty consistent. Running a more Walker heavy build with Vraska and Liliana sounds appealing, but i think that Thoughtseize/Maelstrom Pulse make the build more effecient.
Another consideration i have is that this deck lacks graveyard hate to battle Dredge/Reanimate. Scavenging Ooze is an auto include for me in any NicFit list and somehow i always end up being paired to either one in nearly every tournament i play.

[Tom4ik]

I run 4 gitaxian probe. I do not think its "wrong" but the card in the graveyard has to matter. This means DTT. I play 3 of that card, the sooner you dig the better. I also run 4 fow. I play this deck as a hard control deck though. I do not feel bad with my game 1 combo match up and post board I am more than happy.

Snapcaster is additional bstorms or decays pretty much. Which is fine, I have rarely thought snap was a bad draw, also allows some nice probe therapy snap hands against some decks. I play 2 snap and 3 strix but am not sure that config is right but its also very dependent on meta.

[Star|Scream]

I run 4 gitaxian probe. I do not think its "wrong" but the card in the graveyard has to matter. This means DTT. I play 3 of that card, the sooner you dig the better. I also run 4 fow. I play this deck as a hard control deck though. I do not feel bad with my game 1 combo match up and post board I am more than happy.

Snapcaster is additional bstorms or decays pretty much. Which is fine, I have rarely thought snap was a bad draw, also allows some nice probe therapy snap hands against some decks. I play 2 snap and 3 strix but am not sure that config is right but its also very dependent on meta.

Tom can we please see your latest list, or is it the same as a month or so back?
(haven't seen you on stream in a while)

[Tom4ik]

@starscream - I havent made it to the Wed legacy for a while now unfortunately. Hopefully this week.

(As a side note, they changed the payout (was 4-0 = $100 cash, 3-0-1 was $60 so 3-0ing led to a fair amount of draws) from large cash payouts to smaller $15 -> $10 buy in to store credit as well. From their standpoint i can see it but a lot of the community now doesnt see the wed mead hall as smth to try to get to and more of if free)

My list is probably pretty close. I am on 4 gitaxian probe, 3 strix, 2 snap, 3 dig through time and 1 Thragtusk as "flex spots". I also have 1 pulse main instead of the 3rd decay. I also am only on 2 deed right now. I think the reason BUG decks vary so much more wildly is that the deck can be played in so many different ways than smth like Junk or Jund. This does lead to a less consistent across lists than the other 2 as 75's become much less optimized.

If I run this on Wed I will post the list I use. With miracles and omni being big I would not hesitate to run probe over ponder right now. This deck (Nic fit in general, I do know blue lists will sometimes run force md) has only therapy for relevant early game disruption so probe maximizing seeing and hitting therapy on turn 1 or 2 is worth it for me. Turning therapy from a % chance to hit to for sure is a big upgrade. Anybody that says they know what to name is kidding themselves if they say that probe is not valuable. The question becomes is that single use worth it. I think when playing with dig and snapcaster it is.

Somebody a while back was wondering why snapcaster in the deck. I play 2 because they are additional bstorms basically. 75% of the time that is what they flash back. then they sac to therapy or jump for jace. They also have git probe with therapy, as well as pulse and decay for removal and honestly flash back on dig is not that hard with this deck. I would not run 4 but having access to to them throughout the game is certainly nice. They especially help post board when you bring in more discard in TS, as well as counters in negate (possibly dispel) and of course the old surgical smth and then do it again against omni.

[Arianrhod]

@starscream - I havent made it to the Wed legacy for a while now unfortunately. Hopefully this week.

(As a side note, they changed the payout (was 4-0 = $100 cash, 3-0-1 was $60 so 3-0ing led to a fair amount of draws) from large cash payouts to smaller $15 -> $10 buy in to store credit as well. From their standpoint i can see it but a lot of the community now doesnt see the wed mead hall as smth to try to get to and more of if free)

My list is probably pretty close. I am on 4 gitaxian probe, 3 strix, 2 snap, 3 dig through time and 1 Thragtusk as "flex spots". I also have 1 pulse main instead of the 3rd decay. I also am only on 2 deed right now. I think the reason BUG decks vary so much more wildly is that the deck can be played in so many different ways than smth like Junk or Jund. This does lead to a less consistent across lists than the other 2 as 75's become much less optimized.

If I run this on Wed I will post the list I use. With miracles and omni being big I would not hesitate to run probe over ponder right now. This deck (Nic fit in general, I do know blue lists will sometimes run force md) has only therapy for relevant early game disruption so probe maximizing seeing and hitting therapy on turn 1 or 2 is worth it for me. Turning therapy from a % chance to hit to for sure is a big upgrade. Anybody that says they know what to name is kidding themselves if they say that probe is not valuable. The question becomes is that single use worth it. I think when playing with dig and snapcaster it is.

Somebody a while back was wondering why snapcaster in the deck. I play 2 because they are additional bstorms basically. 75% of the time that is what they flash back. then they sac to therapy or jump for jace. They also have git probe with therapy, as well as pulse and decay for removal and honestly flash back on dig is not that hard with this deck. I would not run 4 but having access to to them throughout the game is certainly nice. They especially help post board when you bring in more discard in TS, as well as counters in negate (possibly dispel) and of course the old surgical smth and then do it again against omni.

After playing Grixis Control for a while, I can agree with your thoughts on Probe. I do still feel like there needs to be more win conditions over further additional cantrips (Ponders etc), but Dig is a bit of a game changer and not having to worry about Therapy sniping and just getting a guaranteed hit on what I -know- will hurt them the worst, rather than what I expect will hurt them the worst, is actually a pretty big game.

The main problem I've always had philosophically is the deck space that Probe takes up -- not anything against the card itself or its synergies within the deck. It has a lot of things going for it...I just worry about getting into situations where we're cantripping too much and failing to advance the game state. That's actually something that ultimately frustrated me about Grixis Control to the point of setting it aside for a while. When you run 4 Bstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Probe, 4 Dig....you just spend so much time drawing cards that you definitely have games where you just literally die because you never cantrip into anything worth playing that actually changes the game. When it works, it feels broken -- but the cantrip shell actually has a much less % of working than I expected going in. I honestly don't know how people can stomach running the version that also runs 4 Preordains. I really don't.

Now, if I were tinkering with a blue shell, I think that something like 3 Brainstorm, 2 Top, 4 Probe, 2 Dig Through Time would be a pretty reasonable start, especially if there's a Snapcaster or two and an E-Wit floating around. 11 cantrips / draw spells, not counting things like Jace, doesn't seem that bad to me. 4 Brainstorm / 1 Top may well be correct in a Dig Through Time world, I've just always found the 3/2 split to be nice.

[Tom4ik]

I can agree that we do not want to get into the space of to much cantripping into additional draw spells. I think 4 Brainstorm is the bare minimum and would EITHER play 4 probe OR 2-3 ponder. I also think 2-3 dig through times is where the bug deck wants to be as well. Seeing 7 and then if we grab jace or brainstorm in order to see 10 cards is just insane. I like playing multiple walkers because they synergy nicely with the deed plus chump blocks of strix and snap very well.

I lean more towards probe right now but if you are looking for more space for bombs I would think cutting those but then running a few ponders instead. If we are looking for additional bombs 2 thoughts would be that
1- For me they would need to be blue. I run 4 Fow and as bad a card as it is in a lot of matchups there is a reason it is the glue of the format. This deck with snap, strix, deed, lily, jace, and dig is just a pile of 2 for 1's. We can get that card back. I want the option to pitch a fat thing early.
2- I would need the card to be useful in the matchups that you are most likely going to see. So Omni, Miracles, grixis and Bug delver. Useful is that it requires an answer within a turn.

Basically this means Consecrated sphinx is where I would go if I were to play a 6 mana spell. I know it dies to reb/swords against both of those decks. If they do not have it within 1 turn they will probably lose. AND they cannot cantrip into it without you being ok with it.

I honestly would be more inclined to play 4 drops (archmage, notion, Thrun) than I would be to play 5s or 6s however. I do think Sphinx is about the only 1 I would be ok playing as the value with that card is absurd right now. In fact, if we want multiple 5 or 6 drops I would either play two Tusks or add 2 sphinx.

@arianrhod vintage- I know you are headed to EW for vintage. I think grixis thieves is in a great spot. The version I played was just restricted card.dec and I went 4/5 against shops. Both game 1s I won on the back of Dack. The next 2 times were an early tinker. the first I made blightsteel, which got metamorphed (so I cantripped Dack and stole it....) The next shops game 2 had cage, 1 turn 2 before I could have turn 2 tinkered. So of course I have lotus and topdeck key so I get to sac mox and take all the turns.....) The hands felt bad a lot of the time but it mulliganed fantasically. just some thoughts.

[Ralf]

I can agree that we do not want to get into the space of to much cantripping into additional draw spells. I think 4 Brainstorm is the bare minimum and would EITHER play 4 probe OR 2-3 ponder. I also think 2-3 dig through times is where the bug deck wants to be as well. Seeing 7 and then if we grab jace or brainstorm in order to see 10 cards is just insane. I like playing multiple walkers because they synergy nicely with the deed plus chump blocks of strix and snap very well.

I lean more towards probe right now but if you are looking for more space for bombs I would think cutting those but then running a few ponders instead. If we are looking for additional bombs 2 thoughts would be that
1- For me they would need to be blue. I run 4 Fow and as bad a card as it is in a lot of matchups there is a reason it is the glue of the format. This deck with snap, strix, deed, lily, jace, and dig is just a pile of 2 for 1's. We can get that card back. I want the option to pitch a fat thing early.
2- I would need the card to be useful in the matchups that you are most likely going to see. So Omni, Miracles, grixis and Bug delver. Useful is that it requires an answer within a turn.

Basically this means Consecrated sphinx is where I would go if I were to play a 6 mana spell. I know it dies to reb/swords against both of those decks. If they do not have it within 1 turn they will probably lose. AND they cannot cantrip into it without you being ok with it.

I honestly would be more inclined to play 4 drops (archmage, notion, Thrun) than I would be to play 5s or 6s however. I do think Sphinx is about the only 1 I would be ok playing as the value with that card is absurd right now. In fact, if we want multiple 5 or 6 drops I would either play two Tusks.

As a beater, I would pick up aetherling.
Pearl lake/Silumgar are also other options.
If you try to play some dragons, Silumgars (Dragonlord & drifting) look appealing.

I do not fancy Probe. As already mentioned I think Ponder is far better in a lot more use cases.
Pretending to have a better G1 against combo with probe is a path I would not take.

Archmage is a whole reason to play BUG, imho.

I found Thragtusk to be rather clunky in a BUG shell.
Another reason to play Nic Fit is to take profit from being able to play Ooze.
In this meta, I really value Ooze much more than Thragtusk. Messing up with graveyard strategies, opposite DTT, any tempo shell is something I want to have access to.

I am usually playing a weird BUG shell that I have already spoken a lot of. But if anyone wants to play something more straight forward, I would begin with the following:

1 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Ætherling
2 Snapcaster mage
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Baleful Strix
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Dig Through Time
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ponder

SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Thragtusk
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay

The sideboard looks like a pile but you get the idea.
MBT is also something to really consider playing right now. The fact that it exiles and does not counter is under estimated.

[Paranoid__Android]

http://www.mtgpulse.com/event/20827#296226

This is finally online after few weeks. What do you think I should change with my mainboard and sideboard with this metagame? 'cause I put together this list in like 5 minutes before going to event. :D

[Gruby]

Hi... need some advice what to place in sideboard in typical punishing fire list. Decks that recently shows are (in order of apperance):

-delvers bug and rug (rarely rub)
-miracles
-reanimators
-D&T

[Richard Cheese]

Been playing around with a BUG version recently and while it seems really powerful, it's boring in the way that a lot of blue control is boring to me. Stick a dude, then durdle around with cantrips and counters for a while. The Deeds even feel unnecessary so far, Decay just cleans up anything that wasn't discarded or countered.

Still, Therapy with flashback into Lotion Thief is just so brutal I might have to give it a spin anyway.

[sdematt]

Been playing around with a BUG version recently and while it seems really powerful, it's boring in the way that a lot of blue control is boring to me. Stick a dude, then durdle around with cantrips and counters for a while. The Deeds even feel unnecessary so far, Decay just cleans up anything that wasn't discarded or countered.

Still, Therapy with flashback into Lotion Thief is just so brutal I might have to give it a spin anyway.

It puts the Lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again!

[maharis]

http://www.mtgpulse.com/event/20827#296226

This is finally online after few weeks. What do you think I should change with my mainboard and sideboard with this metagame? 'cause I put together this list in like 5 minutes before going to event. :D

I would cut Dromoka and Ananfenza for Hymn, more early game disruption.

Do you know the dude in 7th place who played actual 4c modern-style pod?

[Paranoid__Android]

I would cut Dromoka and Ananfenza for Hymn, more early game disruption.

Do you know the dude in 7th place who played actual 4c modern-style pod?

I was thinking of playtesting with 2x Dromoka's Command, 1x Night of the Souls Betrayal and 1x Wilt-Leaf Liege and cutting Garruk, Anafenza, 1x Path to Exile and maybe one basic land (too much flooding that day). I'm thinking of leaving Dromoka in main. He saved me every time it hit the board.
Yes, I know him. Why? :D

[sdematt]

Back to trying this:

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring nightmare

3 Veteran Explorer
4 Siege Rhino
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Sylvan Safekeeper

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 swamp
2 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Taiga

2 Slaughter Games
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
2 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction/Leyline of the Void
2 Gaddock Teeg
--------

Upped the Sigarda count to try since she's so boss against Miracles, upped the Ooze count to fight the other P. Fire decks and DTT, kept Rhino back up at 4 since he's so good against Grixis do-nothing. Board is much more geared to just beating Omni and Miracles. Veteran Explorer sucks in those matchups, so let's just board in a bunch of high impact awesomeness.

Against Omni:

+2 Canonist
+2 Grip
+2 Games
+1 Charm
+3 TS

Miracles:

+2 Grip
+2 Games
+2 Teeg

[Klobster]

I went to the SCG Legacy Super IQ at Indy this summer and got 28th (out of 121) using a list inspired by Matt's Jund Rhino list.

went 4-2-1 The losses were to D&T (greedy keep) and Mono Blue omni tell (he had the turn 2 kill both games and i nailed one of his Show and Tell both games). The draw was to a VERY winnable game 3 against miracles after i slaughter games his Entreat and Jace. Very happy with the deck so far. I run it on MTGO alot too and it seems even better poised to take on that meta. Haven't had time to run a daily yet to see actual results but single que's i am around 70% win rate.

3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
15

2 Punishing Fire
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Sylvan Library
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Sensei's Divining Top
22

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained mire
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
2 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
1 Volrath's Stronghold
24

Sideboard

1 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Boil
1 Krosan Grip
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Slaughter Games
1 Golgari Charm
1 Gaddock Teeg

[Paranoid__Android]

I was testing out today a few games with my friend. He had Merfolk and WRU Delver. I wanted to test out 1x Wilt-Leaf Liege, 2x Dromoka's Commands and Academy Rector-Night of Souls' Betrayal. Build was the same which I've played on the tournament but I -1 Garruk, -1 Anafenza, -1 Path to Exile, -1 Forest, -1 Courser.

Vs. Merfolk, won 2:0 (One game)
- Game one removals and Cabal Therapies kept the field and hands clear for Siege Rhino and Sigarda. Zenith for Wilt-Leaf was lethal.
- Game two I killed one lord with a counter on Sigarda and had to sac her for Invent going for NoSBetrayal. Then Siege and Wilt-Leaf won me the game.

Vs. Delver - 6:2 (Three games)

- First round, I ramped twice with Veterans (he had no basics in main), activaed Deed a few times, then Sigarda and Dromoka killed him.
- Second round, almost the same situation.
- Third round and fourth round lost due to keeping a one land/SDTop hand and getting wasted afterwards. -.-'
- Fifth and Sixth round I managed to get NoSBetrayal online and he couldn't do anything after that.

Conclusions:

Wilt Leaf Liege - He is one of my favourite creatures when in play. 7/7 Sigarda, 7/9 Dromoka, 6/7 trampling Rhino...dreams come true! And with my metagame filled with a few B/X discard decks...win con! Two in main maybe...?

Dromoka's Command - With 2x in main and only 14 (for now) creatures it was not a good card to draw every time. I wanted to test out the +1/+1 counter/fight fusion on Veterans mainly, but I rarely did it. Prevent damage and killing enchantments seems like a good card to keep against Bolts, and similar stuff, but I think they are going out.

Academy Rector - Sacrificing him with unused CTherapy and getting Deed of NoSBetrayal = epic! What are also good targets for Rector if you know some? :D

Night of Souls' Betrayal - that effect on the field is very crucial. -1/-1 on TNN, Delvers, 0/1 Mystics, Adepts, etc. This card buys me time. But, I still need to test this card against GU Infect which I think is a ''secret tech'' in mainboard for next tournament. Killing Agents, Elves and Inkmoths is an epic thing to do! :D

[Whitefaces]

I'm going to be playing a few side events at GP London weekend after next, pretty sure I just want to troll people with Notion Thiefs and Grave Titans, so BUG Nic Fit is on the cards! Any card suggestions to piss people off? :tongue:

[pettdan]

I'm going to be playing a few side events at GP London weekend after next, pretty sure I just want to troll people with Notion Thiefs and Grave Titans, so BUG Nic Fit is on the cards! Any card suggestions to piss people off? :tongue:

Well, eot Cunning Wish for Hatred, untapping and attacking with Strix can be rather demoralizing.

[Whitefaces]

Well, eot Cunning Wish for Hatred, untapping and attacking with Strix can be rather demoralizing.

Ooh, good call. I actually traded for a Meditation with Cunning Wish in mind this week.

Below is what I'm planning, but I like the Cunning Wish idea too. Decisions, decisions.

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
1 Eternal Witness
2 Notion Thief
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Grave Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
2 Crop Rotation
1 Life from the Loam
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Veil
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespians Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta

[Arianrhod]

A Nic Fit day 2'd at SCG DC, per their metagame breakdown. Do we have any idea who // what version it was?

[Dzogchen]

Hey everyone! I played a fairly stock junk list (I can type it up if anyone wants to see the rest) to a 4-0 finish (beat DnT, ANT, affinity, and Jund) at our local FNM on Friday. There was one thing I was testing though that I wanted to point out.

It had been mentioned before that we might need to re-evaluate our 'sacred cow' in Pernicious Deed and I was certainly feeling it over the last month or so. It was always named by a revoker or needle or something early, and sniped from my hand wherever possible. At the event I tried 2 Deeds, and 1 Toxic Deluge in the main, and then another Deluge in the sideboard.

This actually proved to work out REALLY well. There were a few times where people would blind name Deed on their revokers and/or needles as they always did, only to get blown out by Deluge. It felt like a really good split. And then having all 4 after board was great. Just my 2 cents :smile:

Congrats to whoever day 2'd the Legacy Open if they're reading this thread!

[InkedIrishman]

What is the interaction with Containment Priest, Emrakul, and Show ambpsd Tell? If they put in Emmy and you put in Priest would the Priest see they both came in illegally and exile them?

[Arianrhod]

What is the interaction with Containment Priest, Emrakul, and Show ambpsd Tell? If they put in Emmy and you put in Priest would the Priest see they both came in illegally and exile them?

No. You'd have to flash out the Priest in resp to the Show and Tell, at which point they just wouldn't put the Emrakul out. Note that this only matters with Emrakul -- there is equal odds they put out Omniscience and just kill you, which Priest does not stop.

[prof_shine]

More in depth explanation: Priest has a replacement effect, which checks before an event would happen (i.e., instead of entering the battlefield, it'll get exiled instead). But it's a static ability of the creature, which only works when it's already on the battlefield (not "as it's entering the battlefield").

But the real reason I came in here. Serious question. What do you name with Cabal Therapy when they're Hellbent? My go-to is Sarpadian Empires, Vol. VII, but if I've already named that in the match, I'll fall back on Homarid. Other suggestions? Obviously, the more ridiculous the better. Or .. I guess .. is there a legitimate reason to name an actual card?

[sdematt]

More in depth explanation: Priest has a replacement effect, which checks before an event would happen (i.e., instead of entering the battlefield, it'll get exiled instead). But it's a static ability of the creature, which only works when it's already on the battlefield (not "as it's entering the battlefield").

But the real reason I came in here. Serious question. What do you name with Cabal Therapy when they're Hellbent? My go-to is Sarpadian Empires, Vol. VII, but if I've already named that in the match, I'll fall back on Homarid. Other suggestions? Obviously, the more ridiculous the better. Or .. I guess .. is there a legitimate reason to name an actual card?

Always Black Lotus, same as my call with Revoker if there's nothing.

[D@N]

Always Black Lotus, same as my call with Revoker if there's nothing.

Really?!? I always thought it would of been survival.

[Arianrhod]

Always Black Lotus, same as my call with Revoker if there's nothing.

Somebody once told me that you can't actually name an illegal target. This does not stop me from defaulting to Mishra's Workshop.

*ed illegal as in, not legal in the format.

[Tom4ik]

"Judge!!!! My opponent named Black lotus with cabal therapy when I had no cards in hand! Thats illegal, game loss right?!?!?"

[maharis]

I may have told this story before, but at GP NJ, my round 7 opponent was a deaf man playing Dredge. He was very pleasant and we communicated by writing on a pad. At one point I had flashed back a Therapy and targeted him, even though I knew he didn't have anything I wanted him to discard, because I didn't want to reveal my hand and give away information. So I picked up our pad and wrote the first thing that came to mind: Mons's Goblin Raiders. I really think that may have been the only time in Magic history that Mons's Goblin Raiders has been named by Cabal Therapy, and of course it was recorded in writing for posterity due to the nature of our match.

Anyway, he made like 48 zombies and knocked me out.

[Whitefaces]

I named Giant Turtle vs dredge at my LGS last night. Look at that beast!

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=1528&type=card

EDIT: Just so I don't look like an idiot, I knew his hand was Dread Return and City of Brass, so no actual cards like Breakthrough etc to name.

[prof_shine]

Yeah, it has to be a card legal for the format:

201.3. If an effect instructs a player to name a card, the player must choose the name of a card that ... is legal in the format of the game the player is playing.

So no Lotus or Survival. I like the Giant Turtle and the Goblin Raiders though!

Other things I might rotate in:
Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded
Jace, the Living Guildpact
Meandering Towershell
Catacomb Slug
Maritime Guard

Oohh, or maybe some sweet crappy random cards from my Keranos Coin Flip Commander deck:
Goblin Game
Scrambleverse
Trading Post
Krark's Thumb

[uncletiggy]

Thieving magpie or questing pheldagrif are the go tos.

[Brael]

Haven't posted here in a while since I've been too busy to play any of our Legacy nights. Here's a question I have, I'm on the BUG version still with Pod. One of the most useful things to Pod into is Trinket Mage for the artifact suite. Lately I've been thinking about Hangarback Walker as a threat the Trinket Mage can tutor. With this decks acceleration it shouldn't be too far out of the realm of possibility to pod for Trinket Mage and then turn around and Walker for X=3 (Walker probably coming in for Chalice). It seems to me like flashing back a Cabal Therapy right afterwards would be fantastic as well, or even using it as a threat that survives Deed by giving me some bodies.

Is this being too optimistic? Is Swords to Plowshares or Terminus just too big of a blowout after making such a play?

[Echelon]

You're playing Nic Fit and want to close the game with a 3/3..? You might just as well Pod for Trinket Mage, get Chalice, Pod Trinket for Academy Rector and go for profit.

[Whitefaces]

You're playing Nic Fit and want to close the game with a 3/3..? You might just as well Pod for Trinket Mage, get Chalice, Pod Trinket for Academy Rector and go for profit.

First of all, it's not just a 3/3. It grows itself and then creates a small army of thopters, nice if you're being beaten down by an insect. He's also not advocating it as the sole target for Mage, but a tutorable creature. I can definitely see this as a viable inclusion, best thing is to try it out though. Theory doesn't win games!

Secondly, he's not playing White, so Rector is a bit of a silly suggestion. The only enchantment the BUG Pod decks play generally is Deed too, so Rector isn't exactly at its finest.

Think I'll pick up a Hangarback Walker to try it out too.

[Echelon]

Pod doesn't need to hardcast Rector and running Rector could open up a number of silly lines. Pod it to Titania, fetch the green Archetype & crack a returned fetch for 16 hexproof power on the table. Or Pod it to Sidisi and Omniscience an Emrakul on the board. Be creative, lol.

It's very nice that Hangarback can make itself grow, but it's just so incredibly slow. Also, Brael is very spot on about StP/Terminus (at least when looking at my own meta).

[Tom4ik]

Key word being "Silly". I think he is looking to make a more consistent BUG list.

[Echelon]

Meh, Hangarback is silly without the punch. It seems like a lot of durdlemuch while you rather just smash face with a random fattie.

I just don't find having to tap Hangarback to give it +1/+1 a number of turns in a row (b/c it isn't big enough yet to start smashing face) all that appealing.

Instead of Podding to a Trinket Mage, you can just as wel Pod to a Fierce Empath and fetch a Tasigur or Gurmag Angler. Low manacost, immediate threat.

[Tom4ik]

All valid points. Those lines of play being the exact reason that I do not play pod and do not think it is worth building around. I would recommend switching Pods or Jaces, they cost the same but one is going to be good more of the time. Pod does have some higher upside in the tutoring effect but most of the lists I have seen with pod are just looking to chain value. Jace is better at doing that.

Plus you get to drop the meh creatures and run a more homogeneous list of value bros.

[Brael]

You're playing Nic Fit and want to close the game with a 3/3..? You might just as well Pod for Trinket Mage, get Chalice, Pod Trinket for Academy Rector and go for profit.

Not so much close the game but get extra value. Right now Trinket Mage is generally just a tutor target when you need some sort of utility like Engineered Explosives (since you can't tutor Deed), Pithing Needle, or Top (Trinket for Top is the most used play with it). Sometimes that's not what you need though and you're just looking to pod into a board presence. The two to three pod represents the smallest upgrade in board presence. Your 3's are typically Eternal Witness, Reclamation Sage, Trinket Mage, Kitchen Finks, or Vendilion Clique.

Out of those Finks is the conservative play, it gains you life and with two bodies is resilient so you can probably pod from 3 to 4 on the following turn. But if you eat StP or Terminus or any other random exile removal people are playing you're out everything.

Clique is good when you need interaction either in the form of a flier or when you just need to disrupt their hand. It's even ok at putting a card back into your deck to pod into it but it's super fragile, it's usually the aggressive play where you just want to establish a clock and disruption.

Reclamation Sage is more of a utility play, sometimes things just need to die. Trinket Mage is in the same boat fetching up utility artifacts. Trinket Mage into Sensei's Divning Top is the most common play but it's not the only one.

Eternal Witness gets value but it's dependent on the state of the game. Early on the only good Eternal Witness target might be the Baleful Strix you just podded away for a 3 drop. This can be great when you're battling attrition but I wouldn't call it a high pressure play. Depending on the opponents deck this is your conservative play instead of Finks since it guarantees two bodies so you're probably getting to pod on the following turn.

I guess my point is that Trinket Mage into Hangarback Walker gives you another line that puts two bodies on the field (though you can only pod one), it also puts more power onto the board than any other option at that pod slot.

The Academy Rector line requires either being 4 colors, or dropping blue (which removes the point of Pod).


Meh, Hangarback is silly without the punch. It seems like a lot of durdlemuch while you rather just smash face with a random fattie.

I just don't find having to tap Hangarback to give it +1/+1 a number of turns in a row (b/c it isn't big enough yet to start smashing face) all that appealing.

Instead of Podding to a Trinket Mage, you can just as wel Pod to a Fierce Empath and fetch a Tasigur or Gurmag Angler. Low manacost, immediate threat.

Pod definitely durdles there's no denying that. But you're not going to sit around putting +1/+1 counters on it every turn. The way I was thinking about it, I either simply use it as a 3/3 and get what value I can out of it or I tap it to add a single counter and then flashback Cabal Therapy on it (but even then I think I would rather swing than add a counter).

I actually hadn't realized Fierce Empath was a card. Why is it usually not run? Seems like any typical list would love to GSZ to Empath fetching Grave Titan. Not a single list in the primer uses it, and none mention it either. As far as fetching Tasigur goes, I tried that when he first came out. The first two rounds I played right afterwards involved Karakas and I decided he wasn't worth it. Angler at 7 means I can't pod chain into it so that one is out too. Most of the format just can't deal with Grave Titan or Frost Titan though and those are 6, I prefer Frost because he can pitch to FoW in postboard games, though if I was running Empath I think I would drop Pod and Blue entirely so that wouldn't be a factor.

[Tom4ik]

Empath has been run in the past. Nic fit has reduced its curve so that many of the "Bombs" people are playing are actually not 6. Things like Sigarda, Baneslayer, Rhino, Thrun, Glen elendra, Thragtusk. Many of them also happen to be green making empath not needed. It lets you turn your green sun into a 6 drop from another color which hasnt been needed in most lists now.

[Echelon]

You could also use Tasigur/Angler to ramp up your Pod from an Empath to a 7 or 8 drop, since those fatties cost you 1/2 mana at best. That opens up even more fun options, like Elesh Norn or Griselbrand.

[gigapatrick]

Hello all. Would like to share a short tournament report for the interested. I was on Junk Pod with the following list:

Main

3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Wall of Blossom
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Restoration Angel
1 Siege Rhino
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Grave Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Birthing Pod
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Recurring Nightmare

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp

Board

4 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari charm
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Acidic Slime
1 Hypnotic Specter

On the decklist: I'm aware that Junk Pod is strictly inferior to Bug Pod (having played Bug Pod online), and that some creatures available to Bug Pod (notably Glen Elendra Archmage) just can't be replicated in Junk colors. Nonetheless, I tried to base my list off of Bug Pod lists I've seen and off of the one Junk Pod list I've seen on mtgtop8. If this were my only Legacy deck, I'd most certainly want to build Bug Pod, but the necessary Forces and Tropical Islands are just out of my price range unless I want to trade in my other deck (RG Lands), which I don't. Otherwise, while I realize that there's not really a set Junk Pod list, I wanted to talk about three card choices which probably stand out, and these are Wall of Blossoms, Hypnotic Specter, and Ajani, Mentor of Heroes. Having tested with Voice of Resurgence, I ultimately decided on Wall because 1) Voice strikes me as far too anti-synergistic with Pernicious Deed in both effect and mana cost to be worth it, and 2) while Wall is probably only sixty-five percent as good as Baleful Strix, it's still pretty good, especially with Top. Hypnotic Specter, on the other hand, was just a who knows kind of card that I was interested in trying out based on the theory that it might have some uses against combo if I could either Pod or accelerate into it soon enough. Ajani is the board as extra insurance against grindy decks like Esper Stoneblade or Miracles, included based on the idea that, in a deck with twenty-three creatures, Ajani's plus-one acts somewhat like a Jacestorm and his other plus-one speeds up my clock a great deal. (His ultimate, while intriguing, would probably never be used.) I happy to hear ideas on how to make the list better and would love to read arguments about why certain cards might be better than others, provided that everyone understands that I can't make the switch to Bug Pod at this moment.

The Tournament

Round One: Storm (ANT variety)

Game One: I get stormed out. Not much to do as my lone Cabal Therapy sets him back less than a turn.

I board in: 4 Thoughtseize, 1 Gaddock Teeg, 2 Ethersworn Canonist, 1 Hypnotic Specter
I board out: 2 Abrupt Decay, 1 Deed, 1 Recurring Nightmare, 1 Vampire Hexmage, 2 Wall of Blossoms, 1 Orzhov Pontiff

Game Two: I keep a hand with an Ethersworn Canonist and the ability to play it. On my second turn, I draw Teeg and play it before Canonist, since that means Storm won't be able to play Massacre. When on my third turn I play Canonist, Storm concedes, not having seen any white during the first game and not knowing that he needed to board in cards to get rid of hate bears.

Game Three: I keep another hand with Canonist and the ability to play it. I also see Thoughtseize but Storm Duresses that away. I play Canonist and then Storm plays Dread of Night. I get to keep my Canonist for a while but my clock is slowed. Eventually, I'm able to add a Siege Rhino to the board, and then a Baneslayer Angel. This gives me enough life to stay out of range when Storm plays a second Dread of Night to kill my Canonist. On the turn before I alpha swing, Storm storms into a few Goblin tokens, not enough to save him.

1-0

Round Two: Esper Stoneblade

Game One: This game involves a lot of back and forth without a clear winner. I drop a threat which Stoneblade deals with and then he drops a threat that I deal with. Eventually, I Pod from a Thragtusk into a Grave Titan and from there Stoneblade can't win. He concedes with about fifteen minutes left on the clock. (Incidentally, in this game I am able to live the dream of Podding into a Hexmage to kill a Jace.) I feel pretty good about my chances, thinking that at the worst I can stall out the second game into a draw and win the round 1-0-1.

I board in: 1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes, 1 Acidic Slime
I board out: 1 Recurring Nightmare, 1 Shriekmaw

Game Two: I have difficulty getting anything going, while Stoneblade sets up Jace and Vendilion Clique. Eventually, I get a Pod online, but I'm too far behind. On the last turn of turns, Stoneblade kills me with his Clique. We don't have time for a third game.

1-0-1

Round Three: Monoblack Pox

Game One: I'm playing against my buddy, and we both know how this match goes. He attacks my hand and mana base but isn't able to establish a fast enough clock to keep me from stabilizing with a top-decked fatty.

I board in: 1 Abrupt Decay, 1 Acidic Slime, 1 Hypnotic Specter, 1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
I board out: 1 Recurring Nightmare, 1 Orzhov Pontiff, 1 Eternal Witness, 1 Shriekmaw

Game Two: This one goes as the first one did, with the exception that we start the game with a Leyline of the Void in play, which shuts off my persist guys and the Nightmare and the Witness that I board out. Otherwise, I establish Pod and get it going when he can't kill anymore of my creatures.

2-0-1

Round Four: Grixis Delver

Game One: Nothing I attempt to cast resolves beyond a Wall of Blossoms that continually blocked a Young Pyromancer but not all its tokens.

I board in: 2 Abrupt Decay, 2 Golgari Charm, 1 Pernicious Deed
I board out: 1 Recurring Nightmare, 1 Reclamation Sage, 1 Vampire Hexmage, 1 Eternal Witness, 1 Wall of Blossoms

Game Two: I keep a land-heavy hand, thinking it will be decent against soft counterspells. I see an Abrupt Decay, a Pod, and a couple other spells, but the Pod gets hosed by a Grafidigger's Cage on Delver's side and the Abrupt Decay isn't enough to stop his army.

2-1-1

Good enough for ten bucks store credit, but the final round sucked, especially since tempo is supposed to be a good match for Nic Fit. It happens, though. Should have mulled for a better hand during the second game. In any case, it was a blast to play the deck, and while I probably wouldn't take it to a larger event, I'm sure I'll try it out again at my LGS.

[Brael]

Hello all. Would like to share a short tournament report for the interested. I was on Junk Pod with the following list:


Why not just use GSZ over Pod in Junk colors? Most of the cards you want to find are green anyways. The point of Pod in BUG is that most of the creatures you want are blue, but in Junk you just want to play as many Siege Rhino's as possible.

[bruizar]

I've a question for the scapewish players out there. Not having piloted this particular version of the deck, I'm very curious how you liked Huntmaster of the Fells as a card, in what match-ups it was good and how easy it was to control the flips.

[gigapatrick]

Why not just use GSZ over Pod in Junk colors? Most of the cards you want to find are green anyways. The point of Pod in BUG is that most of the creatures you want are blue, but in Junk you just want to play as many Siege Rhino's as possible.

Well, if I'm going to use GSZ instead of Pod, then I'd want an entirely different creature suite, and at that point shouldn't I just be playing Junk Fit instead of Junk Pod? Certainly there's a discussion to be had about the merits of the two decks, but one reason to play a Pod list is the real card advantage that can be generated by Pod, which I'm not sure GSZ can match.

[Brael]

You could also use Tasigur/Angler to ramp up your Pod from an Empath to a 7 or 8 drop, since those fatties cost you 1/2 mana at best. That opens up even more fun options, like Elesh Norn or Griselbrand.

It's an interesting idea but I like being able to cast anything in the deck incase it ends up in my hand rather than through a Pod. Elesh Norn and Griselbrand are pretty tough to hardcast (Elesh Norn not even being in color). There's also the issue that Angler and Tasigur generate no value to pod into or out of. Tasigur especially suffers because he doesn't get to Delve away cards to make his activated ability stronger.


Well, if I'm going to use GSZ instead of Pod, then I'd want an entirely different creature suite, and at that point shouldn't I just be playing Junk Fit instead of Junk Pod? Certainly there's a discussion to be had about the merits of the two decks, but one reason to play a Pod list is the real card advantage that can be generated by Pod, which I'm not sure GSZ can match.

It's mainly an issue of speed. Pod is slow, BUG only plays 2 usually. Playing what is essentially a Modern deck (minus therapy/explorer) just feels to me like it's bringing a knife to a gun fight. A lot of the extra power in Legacy comes in the form of non creatures but a list where you're going at high as 4 pods needs a very creature dense list.

That and I think you're undervaluing Siege Rhino. It got Pod banned in Modern for a reason. Pretty much everything you can do at the 4 slot eventually devolves into wanting to Rhino again, and again, and again though Academy Rector to find Recurring Nightmare (or Deed if you need it) can probably challenge the Rhino. Nightmare and Pod work very well together.

[Tom4ik]

I play bug versions and I play neither pod nor GSZ. I understand liking the tutor effect of those cards but I think you will get more utility out of running 4-8 cantrips. I am now on 4 probes as probe therapy vet/strix is an easy way to steal games. That line of play followed by a Liliana or Jace is usually enough to take the game. If you wanna play a more creature heavy version I think white splash is where you want to be. White contains actual hate bears that can be tutored up which aside from smth like notion thief or glen elendra (both 4 mana) you do not have in blue. Rhino is also a good reason to be in white as it really does fit the game plan of clog the board.

I think you need to look at the core idea of what you want to play. Do you want to play a BGx creature deck? Do you want to play a BUG control deck? Do you want to play a birthing pod deck? Once you know the most important piece you can design a deck to optimize that. That may mean changing the color or philosophy slightly to the deck you already have.

[gigapatrick]

I want to play a fun brewy deck without investing the type of money that playing blue requires. I think junk pod definitely falls into that category, but it is slower than some other versions of Nic fit and less consistent. So maybe a version of junk fit would also met those requirements.

[Paranoid__Android]

What about a Bant version of Nic Fit? Rhox Wak Monk, Kitchen Finks, Perilous Research, etc...

[Ganfar]

What about a Bant version of Nic Fit? Rhox Wak Monk, Kitchen Finks, Perilous Research, etc...

The core of Nic-fit is Veteran exp and Cabal Therapy. The base of a nic-fit deck is GB.

[Tom4ik]

If you dont mind me asking, what in blue are you not able to afford? Most BUG decks, even nicfit versions, will still run 4 force (in the 75) and 3-4 blue duals minimum.

The problem that you will face with pod is that its a value card essentially but its one that requires you to have creatures in play. This is usually worse than something like Jace or dig through time which do not need other cards to be effective or just playing another threat in that slot so in junk just having more gsz and rhinos.

[bruizar]

If Jace and DTT are going to be the reasons for playing Nic Fit you might as well stop and play Miracles. Blue is strong for intuition, force of will and brainstorm, but mostly intuition.

[gigapatrick]

If you dont mind me asking, what in blue are you not able to afford? Most BUG decks, even nicfit versions, will still run 4 force (in the 75) and 3-4 blue duals minimum.

Exactly those cards. I used to own a playset of Forces and several blue duals, but I traded off of those to get some expensive Legends cards, including a Tabernacle. None of the viable blue decks really interested me, so I didn't bother keeping the blue staples. So now that I'm trying to get proficient at a second deck, I decided on Nic Fit because it has always seemed awesome and fun to me. I've got the duals and fetches for Junk colors, so that's what I'll play. And while I had a blast playing Pod at the local tournament I went to, maybe I'll switch over to just Junk Fit, since I'm sure that'll be a blast as well and will probably perform better.

[Paranoid__Android]

The core of Nic-fit is Veteran exp and Cabal Therapy. The base of a nic-fit deck is GB.

I know, I know. But, what about an alternative route with Veteran Explorer? Perilous Research is a fun card, and Cabal's discard effect can be replaced with extra drawing into straight counters. :D Just wondering...

[Tom4ik]

Intuition is not the reason to play blue. In fact, you should not be playing intuition in your blue list at all. I have no idea why you would say that, what list are you looking at? Brainstorm and force are for sure huge adds to the deck. On that I agree. That does not mean Jace and dig through time are not cards the deck loves to have. They are draw engines that go into multiple decks so I do not really understand that comment......

Also, this was in response to the idea of a Birthing pod deck. My comment was aimed at if birthing pod was in a bug deck it was a value engine which both jace and dig are better at. If in junk I would rather have more threats than a slow and expensive way to create incremental value chains.

[bruizar]

Intuition is the strongest card you can play in Nic Fit. For instance, Intuition for 3 Kederekt Leviathan and Omnitell can scoop. Draw one naturally and Omnitell can scoop. There are a million plays I can tell you that break the format in half with Intuition in Nic Fit, but the people in this thread have been going a different, more fair route. Jace is a waste of space.

Two other notable plays include
EOT Intuition for 3 Cabal Therapy
Intuition for Gigapede + Unburial Rites + bomb such as Griselbrand or Iona or Palinchron
Intuition for 3 Force of Will
And Intuition for things like Eternal Witness to finish up a missing piece of the combo to draw entire deck + play all cards + bounce your opponents board + discard all his threats
Etc etc etc

[Tom4ik]

Your definition of strong is certainly different from mine. Of the cards you listed I do not want 90% of them anywhere near my deck. I am not going to refute any of those piles because we both know that intuition is not breaking the format or nicfit any time soon. I would sooner run gifts than intuition.

Jace IS easily one of the main draws to blue in the this deck. The ability to play an early jace backed not only with discard to ensure resolution but with decay and deed to protect is for sure better than intuition and its not close. Dig through time is also better than intuition.

To be perfectly honest I am not sure I even believe your post as the fact that you mentioned that leviathan and omni scooping in the same sentence is questionable.

[bruizar]

Your definition of strong is certainly different from mine. Of the cards you listed I do not want 90% of them anywhere near my deck. I am not going to refute any of those piles because we both know that intuition is not breaking the format or nicfit any time soon. I would sooner run gifts than intuition.

Jace IS easily one of the main draws to blue in the this deck. The ability to play an early jace backed not only with discard to ensure resolution but with decay and deed to protect is for sure better than intuition and its not close. Dig through time is also better than intuition.

To be perfectly honest I am not sure I even believe your post as the fact that you mentioned that leviathan and omni scooping in the same sentence is questionable.

I've played a ton of Jace in Nic Fit. Multiple copies used to be in my list too. The problem is, it really doesn't do anything the deck wants to do nor does it truly shore up weaknesses. Yeah, it's a great planeswalker, but its also a solution to a non-existant problem in a deck that should have a game plan rather than dropping Jace and hoping to win.

Kederekt Leviathan is an amazing bomb that show and tell decks have ZERO ways of interacting with. The fact that you can Unearth the other 2 intuitioned Kederekt Leviathans to bounce the one in play means that one intuition blanks 3 show and tells. Between that and Cabal Therapies, it's nigh impossible for Omnitell to put up a show.

The reason why you don't believe me is that somewhere in this thread there was a discussion about the origins of this deck. The OP promised to put it in the primer but never did. In doing so, the thread missed an entirely different stream of Nic Fit that was an incredibly aggressive and versatile control deck with a combo finish. We've recently decided to call this deck Krik Fit, because Krik is the name of the original deck builder, even though his work started well before this thread first opened (evidence of this was posted in this thread).

[Whitefaces]

To be perfectly honest I am not sure I even believe your post as the fact that you mentioned that leviathan and omni scooping in the same sentence is questionable.

Set my troll alarm off too.

'Show and Tell resolves. Trigger Kederekt Leviathan'

'OK. Kill you?'

[bruizar]

Set my troll alarm off too.

'Show and Tell resolves. Trigger Kederekt Leviathan'

'OK. Kill you?'

I should state that Kederekt Leviathan was used against SNT prior to the printing of Omnitell, so yes instant speed kills will still happen. It's been a long time since I worked on the deck.

[Star|Scream]

I've played a ton of Jace in Nic Fit. Multiple copies used to be in my list too. The problem is, it really doesn't do anything the deck wants to do nor does it truly shore up weaknesses. Yeah, it's a great planeswalker, but its also a solution to a non-existant problem in a deck that should have a game plan rather than dropping Jace and hoping to win.

Kederekt Leviathan is an amazing bomb that show and tell decks have ZERO ways of interacting with. The fact that you can Unearth the other 2 intuitioned Kederekt Leviathans to bounce the one in play means that one intuition blanks 3 show and tells. Between that and Cabal Therapies, it's nigh impossible for Omnitell to put up a show.

The reason why you don't believe me is that somewhere in this thread there was a discussion about the origins of this deck. The OP promised to put it in the primer but never did. In doing so, the thread missed an entirely different stream of Nic Fit that was an incredibly aggressive and versatile control deck with a combo finish. We've recently decided to call this deck Krik Fit, because Krik is the name of the original deck builder, even though his work started well before this thread first opened (evidence of this was posted in this thread).

If your version of the deck can break the format, why aren't you posting a list?

[bruizar]

If your version of the deck can break the format, why aren't you posting a list?

I sold out the majority of my cards and my playgroup died out. This list is I think? 2 years old now. This was my list. The optimal list according to Krik did not run the unburial rites package. I was personally very fond of the UR package but my list misses a phantasmal image which really should be in there as it is super strong. Kederekt Leviathan was a sideboard card. The strongest list we found, which I don't have access to so I can't reproduce it, contained 4 Brainstorm and 4 Force of Will in addition to 4 Intuition. This is not that list.

Any list I post now is going to be hugely outdated, but here goes

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Intuition
3 Diabolic Intent
1 Gigapede
1 Unburial Rites
1 Palinchron
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Griselbrand
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Unearth

1 Dryad Arbor
23 Land / 11 fetch / 6 or 7 basics (1 plains) / rest duals (1 white dual).


Between 3 Intent, 4 Intuition and 4 GSZ you have insane selection. Another really good play is turn 1 explorer into turn 2 cabal therapy, flashback therapy, intent + hymn to tourach. The gitaxian probes were also super strong.