[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Tom4ik]

So we are 4 colors and entirely based of a graveyard based combo that requires multiple spells to resolve in order to reanimate a card? I admire innovation but I do not believe that deck to be either consistent nor overall powerful enough to play over other versions.

If we are playing the deck as a control deck then jace is exactly the card that furthers the control game plan (please do not disagree that Jace is not a great control card) and even if we play your more combo orientated deck it would be useful as a way to dig for combo pieces while force the opponent to deal with it while you set your combo up. Dig through time would probably be a better card for your deck any way through.

There are plenty of Nicfit decks that play a more combo orientated kill. Scapeshift and the White angel/spike feeder both being decks that leaned on the combo element quite a bit. Your deck is not even attempting to do anything other than combo so it is different from those sure but I do not think its any better.

Either your deck needs the combo to be extremely fast or very compact. This deck is neither.

[bruizar]

That's a rather fast conclusion. It took about a year to develop the intuition build (AND I'm saying my list is subpar compared to the more focused list of the original creator). Your 2 minutes screening of the list without any play testing is something I cannot take serious. If you aren't willing to try it out and have your mind set regardless, fine, go play Jace. There are better Jace decks than Nic Fit but there are not better combo decks with the hand shredding capability of 4 cabal therapies/2 therapies+hymn to tourach on turn 2.

The game plan of Nic Fit is two fold:
A) Get asymmetric gains from veteran explorer due to the high density of basic lands
B) Accelerate the early game to the end game, while leaving your opponent with nothing to cast / have better stuff to cast than the opponent

Jace is a good card, but there is simply no space for Jace in an optimized version of Nic Fit.

[Whitefaces]

Another really good play is turn 1 explorer into turn 2 cabal therapy, flashback therapy, intent + hymn to tourach.

I guess there's a second Explorer in the mix there? Otherwise you'll need another creature to sac, and another mana if you don't have Intent.


That's a rather fast conclusion. It took about a year to develop the intuition build (AND I'm saying my list is subpar compared to the more focused list of the original creator). Your 2 minutes screening of the list without any play testing is something I cannot take serious. If you aren't willing to try it out and have your mind set regardless, fine, go play Jace. There are better Jace decks than Nic Fit but there are not better combo decks with the hand shredding capability of 4 cabal therapies/2 therapies+hymn to tourach on turn 2.

And that's an incredibly shortsighted rebuttal when you openly admit the deck is two years old. Legacy has gotten a lot faster and a lot more efficient in that time, what you're doing just isn't powerful or robust enough to warrant such a backdoor way of cheating Griselbrand into play, or comboing with Palinchron and Recurring Nightmare. Am I missing something, or is there nothing to do with that infinite mana to close out the game too?

[bruizar]

Infinite mana turns into infinite probe, infinite cards turns into infinite pernicious deed, infinite hymn to tourach and 27 power on the board. That's enough of a win condition.


Yes, legacy has changed and yes the list needs to be updated. Even if I'd pilot this list today it would still hold up quite well though. The speed of the format doesn't really matter when you're shredding hands to oblivion on turns one and two.


what you're doing just isn't powerful or robust enough to warrant such a backdoor way of cheating Griselbrand into play
I should mention that Griselbrand can be any bomb, such as Iona, or something else. You can't be serious that reanimating is not powerful enough.

EOT Intuition for
* Unburial Rites
* Gigapede
* Bomb
Upkeep, return Gigapede by discarding bomb or Unburial Rites
Play a land
Flashback Unburial Rites

If you pick Iona against Omnitell after first shredding with therapies, you win the game.

[Whitefaces]

Infinite mana turns into infinite probe, infinite cards turns into infinite pernicious deed, infinite hymn to tourach and 27 power on the board. That's enough of a win condition.

Assuming this all resolves. I know the 'dies to Doom Blade' argument sucks, but seriously, if you think this can be pulled off that easily you're delusional.


Yes, legacy has changed and yes the list needs to be updated. Even if I'd pilot this list today it would still hold up quite well though. The speed of the format doesn't really matter when you're shredding hands to oblivion on turns one and two.

Yes, if you'd pilot it today. Which you're not, so what evidence do we have that this is the absolute number one best OMG nic fit EVER!?

Shredding hands into oblivion? Which those 5 discard spells in a format rampant with Brainstorm and SDT. Sure thing buddy.

To quote yourself - 'If you aren't willing to try it out and have your mind set regardless, fine'

Run this through a gauntlet of Miracles, Grixis and Omni (with non-ape players). You'll get annihilated.

I'm all for innovation in Nic Fit, I've had some wacky brews myself, but claiming something as weak as this to be the be all and end all is a bit silly.

I'll ignore the bit about Jace not being good in a ramp control deck with Pernicious Deed.

EDIT for your edit


I should mention that Griselbrand can be any bomb, such as Iona, or something else. You can't be serious that reanimating is not powerful enough.

EOT Intuition for
* Unburial Rites
* Gigapede
* Bomb
Upkeep, return Gigapede by discarding bomb or Unburial Rites
Play a land
Flashback Unburial Rites

If you pick Iona against Omnitell after first shredding with therapies, you win the game.

You heard of this little fellow called DRS? Yeah, he's kinda played a lot in Legacy. So are things like Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Daze, FoW, Red Elemental Blast (maindeck), Cabal Therapies, Thoughtseize...the list goes on.

And yes, reanimating some bomb isn't enough these days to close out a game on their own vs the current metagame. Or, against the decks that it is, like Omni or Delver you're not going to resolve this 'combo', Therapy or not. You're playing a 3cmc spell, then a 4cmc spell and expecting that to be fine?

[bruizar]

Assuming this all resolves. I know the 'dies to Doom Blade' argument sucks, but seriously, if you think this can be pulled off that easily you're delusional.

When you combo out you combo out dude. That's like saying assuming you get to cast all 10 spells about a tendrils deck, or assuming all this resolves against omniscience. Once you combo, you combo.


Shredding hands into oblivion? Which those 5 discard spells in a format rampant with Brainstorm and SDT. Sure thing buddy.
First cabal therapy ALWAYS names Brainstorm in the blind. 5 discard spells, 3 demonic tutors, 4 intuitions. That's 12 cards that can utterly rip your opponents hand apart.

I won't dignify the rest of your comment with an answer as I'm tired of your assumptions. Jace is good, but there are better cards you should use your slots for.

[Tom4ik]

So now are combo deck needs another 2 cards (Witness & Nightmare). I mean sure, if we assemble voltron this sounds like a sweet thing to show somebody but your the one who keeps talking about "optimized" (your word) lists. I dont know where this is I do not play your deck than I cannot critique it culture came from but its not reality. I can tell you that the deck (as you have presented now both a rough list as well as the core idea) is not close to a good enough list. Its slow, reliant on a few cards, and requires quite a lot to go right.

If you disagree with running Jace due to a preference to play some kind of a combo over him I can understand that. However, that does not mean we can not maximize Jace. We have as good if not better tools to protect him (decay being uncounterable and deed being a proactive card you can play to force them to over commit) so I actually disagree that we are not using him as well as other decks. The fact we can also play him turn 3 with multiple discard spells prior, and that in some versions (mine for one) you can pair him with Lily is huge.

I view the "core" of nicfit as the vet therapy interaction. Nothing more. Deed may be replaced, kill cards, splash colors, etc. If you have those 2 cards people will refer to your deck as a nicfit variant. I run a bug version that plays 21 lands as a control deck. I use the interaction (and the probe therapy) to play a land light control deck that can draw a ton more gas as the game goes on. I use dig and jace as the draw engines. I havent played a ton in the last 2 months but I top 8'd an 8 round and have never not at least placed high enough for money back in the weekly 4 rounds that I have gone to.* I do know enough about Legacy to be able to comment on your decklist without wasting my time playing the list you fell in love with 2 years ago.

*For anyone that used to watch Meadhall legacy wed streams, they have changed payout back to cash so starting yesterday. Stream should be more consistent now. went 2-1-1. Lost to cloudpost, drew with cloudpost (in turns but I had jace at 5 and lily at 6 with force in hand) and beat burn. highlight was a 14/14 ooze against burn, and reanimating a glen elendra with the new Liliana. Which I had 1 in the board just to test. I brought it in mostly as a 2/3 lifelinker that can block guide and eidelon.

[Whitefaces]

When you combo out you combo out dude. That's like saying assuming you get to cast all 10 spells about a tendrils deck, or assuming all this resolves against omniscience. Once you combo, you combo.

Duh, what on earth was I thinking!? Of course when you combo, you combo. How mindnumbingly stupid of me. Sorry, carry on goldfishing.


First cabal therapy ALWAYS names Brainstorm in the blind. 5 discard spells, 3 demonic tutors, 4 intuitions. That's 12 cards that can utterly rip your opponents hand apart.

I won't dignify the rest of your comment with an answer as I'm tired of your assumptions. Jace is good, but there are better cards you should use your slots for.

No, no it doesn't. As my avatar might show, I'm a big fan of the card. As matter would have it, it's my favourite card in the game! You don't snap name BS in the dark, there is so much more to it than that. Anyway, that's another topic for another day.

[Star|Scream]

I actually played the palinchron bug fit 2 years ago. It was terrible then.

[bruizar]

If you disagree with running Jace due to a preference to play some kind of a combo over him I can understand that. However, that does not mean we can not maximize Jace. We have as good if not better tools to protect him (decay being uncounterable and deed being a proactive card you can play to force them to over commit) so I actually disagree that we are not using him as well as other decks.

I'm not sure what your list looks like exactly, but I think in general that Nic Fit lists do not have enough space to play the number of counters required to let Jace impact the stack. It's nice that you can Brainstorm every turn but if you are drawing into pernicious deeds, liliana of the veil, abrupt decays and veteran explorers, how exactly are you going to beat omniscience? Or lands for that matter? Or even reanimator that can play Ashen Rider on your Jace and exile Liliana on the way out should you have BOTH in play. You will beat fair decks with your Jace, because you are drawing into permanent-based hate. Problem is, you'll be lacking in stack interactions and you don't have a truly broken play. That's why I'm running a very small reanimate package that I can summon up whenever I'm reading to go for it with so much selection. For only a 3 card combo package, I can seal the game most of the time. 3 cards, because Intuition is good enough without unburial rites (Krik doesn't play it). You will beat goyfs with your bug list im sure, heck, you might be fast enough for elves too which is impressive for bug control, but Jace will ultimately be too slow against decks that run the cantrip cartel. Fateseal has lost a lot of its strength with DTT/Ponder/Brainstorm/Probe. I'd rather accelerate into Iona on blue or green than drop a Jace.

[Ganfar]

I know, I know. But, what about an alternative route with Veteran Explorer? Perilous Research is a fun card, and Cabal's discard effect can be replaced with extra drawing into straight counters. :D Just wandering...

Cabal is the best sac outlet for veteran explorer and you miss so mush if you don't have it. Sounds like you want to build a Bant Midrange deck and it need no Veteran Explorer.

[Ralf]

Cabal is the best sac outlet for veteran explorer and you miss so mush if you don't have it. Sounds like you want to build a Bant Midrange deck and it need no Veteran Explorer.

Tbh, Perilous research IS a great card as well.

It is not played because it has to resolve to be able to sacrifice the explorer. What a shame !!!

I had a lot of nasty ideas involving Vet + Perilous + Scape back then... Sort of a RUG Scapeshift !

@ Thread:

I don't understand the hype around Probe + Therapy, unless you are running a deck including 4 ponder + 4 brainstorm (somehow) already.

From experience, here are some food for thoughts (and I remember having this conversation with Qweerios back then on this very thread):

1) It is really really difficult to evaluate an opening hand with a probe in it (except if it is Xmas and you have a Therapy+ black source)
2) The first probe is good. But the others are usually really low compared with Ponder.
3) Our main target is generally getting Therapy + Vet online. Ponder digs more than a Probe in this respect.
4) Overall you lose consistency by replacing Ponder by Probe, from a pure statistical point of view. Probe + Therapy is fantastic but it does not occur on a large basis to make it reliable except if your deck is a cantrip.deck

Can someone enlighten me ? Or is this all about that Grixis Control deck with 12 - 16 cantrips (with "Thought Scour" to mess with opposing BS) ?

[uncletiggy]

Its sad this thread has gotten two pages of action off some wonky untested palincron homebrew but legitimate topics like the correct ratio of stoneforge to equipment, is teeg #2 better then gsz #4 in the current meta or the mentor/top interaction get no attention.

[Tom4ik]

@Ralf -I run 4 probe because I like hitting with therapy for sure on turn 1/2 and I run 3 Digs. I am also not totally sold on it. If you do not like it fine, but I know I have answered the WHY I play it a few times. Whether you think that is worth it or not is still up for debate. you are also not wrong that probe hands are tougher to decide on keeping. The ability to turn Therapy into 100% hit in matchups like omni and miracles early is very powerful. Late game it is just a redraw so the downside as I see it is more on the deck space thing. I amrunning 4 bs, 2 snap, 3 dig, 3 jace and 4 probe so I can sometimes see the idea that there is too much draw and not enough gas. The deck is very consistent however so the question of balance is certainly there.

uncletiggy- Nobody is stopping you or others from teeg or sfm discussions. I personally have very little to say about junk versions as I do not play them. I would run only sofai/bskull if Iwas in a junk with sfm. I also would run a second teeg but without a list I do not know if a 4th gsz would be there. I try to stick the the deck versions I know and have played more which is bug and jund. The discussion was not only over a shitty homebrew but intution in general (which tbh is probably an ok card to consider)and jace and dig in BUG. If people have specific questions I am more than happy to help out. I have been more free for magic and other stuff nowadays.

[bruizar]

What's funny is that I generally think that your assessment of which blue cards are strong in nic fit is similar to mine. From our experience, Probe is a house in Nic Fit. At this stage I'd probably replace a couple of things from the list I mentioned such as the recurring nightmare and some other things, but the unburial rites / intuition package I'd keep in. I mean, its been 2 years.

[Arianrhod]

In case anyone was curious, I did not play legacy at Eternal Weekend and just jammed a bunch of vintage instead. Firepaw was present and on the same plan; I don't know who all else was in attendance, but I'm sure a couple of you made and I didn't know.

Got crushed personally, but the 2nd place finisher in the vintage main event is a friend of mine who was using my exact 76. Randy Buehler gushing on stream about Mikokoro for 10 minutes straight entirely my fault -- you can bless me or curse me for that; both options are probably valid in roughly equal measures.

Not sure how Firepaw did in the main, although I do know he was running pretty hot on the weekend whenever I talked to him. We also jammed vintage for like 3 hours Saturday morning and he had Library on the draw at least 60% of his games, so I'm guessing he did fine.

He was on Prodigy Gifts and I was on my Thieves, ofc.

Hopefully I'll see more of you at Eternal Weekend playing vintage next year -- and, of course, hopefully I'll / we'll actually be playing legacy regularly again by then. I don't even care what changes happen in this format at the moment as long as -something- changes.

[Tom4ik]

I agree that vintage is in a really great spot right now. Shops being such a large % of the field, and being an annoying deck to play against can suck but in general I really like where it is at. I also play grixis thieves when I play. I have tested some gifts variants but I just could never get a list that really felt great. Awesome that your buddy was able play that card, I do love it!

As for legacy, I like it too. Since the format has been around their really has always been a tier 1 of 3/4 decks that people say "if you are not playing this why bother" but in locals I still see 15 different decks out of 20 ppl tournies so I am fine with it. I have actually gotten into modern a bit more lately (on Esper Mentor) and it really reinforces why I like legacy, and legacy with cantrips, but to each their own I guess. I am not sure what actual Data Wotc uses to decide on bannings or if they do use data or its just a feel thing but I imagine we might see some type of banning along with an unrestriction. Not that the unrestriction is going to be a card that does anything... that is unless they forget how stupid busted SOTF is. Then this thread could rejoice and begin brewing for the anti-SOTF Survival deck ha!

The intuition discussion has made me think about trying to include some type of compact combo in my bug list. Will think on this...

[Arianrhod]

I agree that vintage is in a really great spot right now. Shops being such a large % of the field, and being an annoying deck to play against can suck but in general I really like where it is at. I also play grixis thieves when I play. I have tested some gifts variants but I just could never get a list that really felt great. Awesome that your buddy was able play that card, I do love it!

As for legacy, I like it too. Since the format has been around their really has always been a tier 1 of 3/4 decks that people say "if you are not playing this why bother" but in locals I still see 15 different decks out of 20 ppl tournies so I am fine with it. I have actually gotten into modern a bit more lately (on Esper Mentor) and it really reinforces why I like legacy, and legacy with cantrips, but to each their own I guess. I am not sure what actual Data Wotc uses to decide on bannings or if they do use data or its just a feel thing but I imagine we might see some type of banning along with an unrestriction. Not that the unrestriction is going to be a card that does anything... that is unless they forget how stupid busted SOTF is. Then this thread could rejoice and begin brewing for the anti-SOTF Survival deck ha!

The intuition discussion has made me think about trying to include some type of compact combo in my bug list. Will think on this...

For legacy, I just want one thing. It's very simple. I want a format where RUG Delver is a deck again. I'm not a part of the "ban cantrips" brigade, although I do think that Dig pushes cantrips into an unhealthy extreme. I like interactive games and interactive formats. RUG Delver always has "those draws," but overall I think that that deck being good is a sign of a healthy format. RUG Delver not even existing right now is a symptom of an unhealthy format. I like the format still and do wish to play it (in fact I'm probably playing at Mythic this weekend, but that's more because I want to go to Mythic and hang with friends than because I want to actually play legacy). I'm just stone tired of this Omnitell/Miracles bullshit. Give me an interactive format, please.

Modern....yeah, no. If they ever unban Thopter/Sword I might actually play the format, but I think it's going to take exactly that happening to even get me to POSSIBLY care.

I've been calling a Mind Twist unbanning for a while now, and I still think it's on the table. Unfortunately, it wouldn't even help us at this point unless it's accompanied by a Dig Through Time banning. Survival is obviously the nut high. I both think Survival is a viable unban if they're not going to ban anything, and also that they won't actually unban it, so the point is moot.

Survival's biggest fault, ironically, is being too well designed and too fun. The only reason the card had to be banned was because everyone would just rather play Survival than try to beat it, because the deck is just too goddamn fun. It could be beaten then, and it can be beaten now. I still don't think WotC will actually pull that trigger.

If you held a gun to my head I'd say we're probably a month away from a Dig Through Time ban and something stupid and innocuous like a Memory Jar or Black Vise unban.

[tilzinger]

Modern....yeah, no. If they ever unban Thopter/Sword I might actually play the format, but I think it's going to take exactly that happening to even get me to POSSIBLY care.


At least Modern is balanced. It doesn't have 1 or 2 decks destroying everything else.

[Tom4ik]

@Arianrhod- If you ban smth to hurt the blue decks its for sure Dig. There is always the ban brainstorm crowd but I am of the opinion that dig is a huge incentive to play cantrips just as cruise was. They lend themselves to different decks but when cruise was banned and dig wasnt I figured that dig was going to be just as played but the variety of decks because it lends itself to both more styles of decks where cruise clearly had 1 deck that was above the rest.

There are a few unbans that would most likely lead to nothing new in the format (earthcraft and twist would probably be fine) and a few that would be influential in the format (bargain & vise) with SOTF being a new tier 1 deck.

@modern format- It is fine for what it is, its not legacy light but better standard. If you think that format is fine then great, go play it but I do not believe it is healthier nor is it for me more enjoyable than legacy.

@tilzinger -Legacy has 2 decks that destroy everything else? Which? miracles that had 0 Top 8 and 5 Top 32? Omni-tell? grixis/4C delver that just recently became a big thing? Btw, I see you are in Mpls, what stores do you play in for legacy?

[Anarky87]

The only reason I play Modern is because of better player support in the area. Most of the people that comprised the Legacy scene eventually sold out of their collections and just dumped it into Modern as the Eternal format of choice. No stores in the area or surrounding areas supported Legacy anyway. But, a few have started to slowly buy back in.

That wasn't the point of my post though, lol. I ran the Punishing Nic Fit a couple weekends ago to a 2-2 finish. Technically 1-2 since a had a bye, but I misplayed against Burn in the 3rd game and that cost me. I then played against some variant of Storm and lost in a quick 0-2 fashion. I then beat my friend on Merfolk to finish 9th. I found the deck enjoyable and I plan to stick with it for the time being and improve my play with it. Currently picking up some Savannah's and Scrubland's so I can convert to Junk if need be.

[emuhell]

I tried to find a "I win" combo similar to Scapeshift for the Junk build for a while. I'm still not sure but I would like to hear your opinion on this.

Theoretically Leyline of the Void would do some interesting things at the moment - from destroying Dredge/Reanimator to hindering Storm to mess with Dig through Time.

Do you think the time/meta is right for trying a Leyline-Helm combo approach? Based on a Junk shell with Rhinos and including 1-2 Enlightened Tutor for Deed/Helm/Leyline.

All in all it is about 5-7 slots that would instantly improve certain combo MU but gnaw on the consistency of the overall NicFit approach.

[tilzinger]

@tilzinger -Legacy has 2 decks that destroy everything else? Which? miracles that had 0 Top 8 and 5 Top 32? Omni-tell? grixis/4C delver that just recently became a big thing? Btw, I see you are in Mpls, what stores do you play in for legacy?

Maybe I was a bit over zealous with that statement, but I was just thinking about miracles.

I haven't played legacy at a store yet, but when I do it'll be Meadhall. We just got a new puppy so she is taking up nearly all my free time right now. I play modern at Tower b/c its a mile away and they only do 3 matches instead of 4, so I'm home by 9pm.

Has anyone who plays junk tried adding 4 Gitaxian Probes as the only blue splash? I don't own a Tropical Forest, so a Breeding Pool will have to do for now, but with 3 Rhino's and a Swagtusk the life loss should be easily offset for better Therapies and a bit more gas. I'm going to play around with this with some friends and see how it does.

[Tom4ik]

I honestly think the Nicfit shell is (at least right now, if we go back to Maverick vs Rug decks its all good again) is at a disadvantage in the format due to how it plays out. It is a board control deck in a format where most of the powerful/fast combo decks are stack based. This already leads to a hard match up. The main form of interaction most of the decks in this thread have for game 1 is of course the discard, which does not really help unless you can win or set up a lock. Junk builds have the hate bear tactic. So discard into canonis, teeg, etc might be enough. Having a real way to win early or even as Bruizar was mentioning with reanimating a fatty like Iona or Grisel is where I think I want to be. I think if you want to play control in legacy CB/Top is something you need.

I am not sure of all the possible compact combos but the leyline/helm plan is interesting. It does give you a way to win on turn 3 with double therapy. Even without opening on leyline you can still race some of the omni hands if you have vet. If you still play tower you can also just turn 2 someone which would be hilarious out of nicfit. There would both be a junk version (where you get access to Etutor and better backup plan of rhino) or Bug (Force would make it more palatable to tap out for 4 mana sorcery speed stuff, plus the cantrips). This is very interesting.

The other card that came to mind for me was panoptic mirror. Obviously that would be a win with a timewalk effect ala time vault. I do feel this could easily become a rabbit hole of suboptimal cards but its an interesting thought experiment for me if nothing else.

I do not actually own any helms so I will be unable to test any of that tonight.

Edit-@Tilzinger - Mead hall has a great legacy group of regulars that usually show up. The field is pretty diverse. Last week was the first week they moved back to cash and it was short notice but we got 13 ppl for it. (cash was up to $80 back). 2-1-1 is money back so a lot of ppl who are 2-1 by round 4 do draw to just get their cash back and head home at 9. I have been playing there for 2 years and the meta is very good. Last week we had 1 miracles, 2 cloudpost, 1 mud, 1 storm, 1 omni, 1 grixis, 1 burn, 1 belcher, Me (bug nicfit) and a few others.
Edit2- If you come out there and need a trop I do have a 1 that is not in my deck right now. Would just need it back by the end of the night.

[Arianrhod]

I honestly think the Nicfit shell is (at least right now, if we go back to Maverick vs Rug decks its all good again) is at a disadvantage in the format due to how it plays out. It is a board control deck in a format where most of the powerful/fast combo decks are stack based. This already leads to a hard match up. The main form of interaction most of the decks in this thread have for game 1 is of course the discard, which does not really help unless you can win or set up a lock. Junk builds have the hate bear tactic. So discard into canonis, teeg, etc might be enough. Having a real way to win early or even as Bruizar was mentioning with reanimating a fatty like Iona or Grisel is where I think I want to be. I think if you want to play control in legacy CB/Top is something you need.

I am not sure of all the possible compact combos but the leyline/helm plan is interesting. It does give you a way to win on turn 3 with double therapy. Even without opening on leyline you can still race some of the omni hands if you have vet. If you still play tower you can also just turn 2 someone which would be hilarious out of nicfit. There would both be a junk version (where you get access to Etutor and better backup plan of rhino) or Bug (Force would make it more palatable to tap out for 4 mana sorcery speed stuff, plus the cantrips). This is very interesting.

The other card that came to mind for me was panoptic mirror. Obviously that would be a win with a timewalk effect ala time vault. I do feel this could easily become a rabbit hole of suboptimal cards but its an interesting thought experiment for me if nothing else.

I do not actually own any helms so I will be unable to test any of that tonight.

Edit-@Tilzinger - Mead hall has a great legacy group of regulars that usually show up. The field is pretty diverse. Last week was the first week they moved back to cash and it was short notice but we got 13 ppl for it. (cash was up to $80 back). 2-1-1 is money back so a lot of ppl who are 2-1 by round 4 do draw to just get their cash back and head home at 9. I have been playing there for 2 years and the meta is very good. Last week we had 1 miracles, 2 cloudpost, 1 mud, 1 storm, 1 omni, 1 grixis, 1 burn, 1 belcher, Me (bug nicfit) and a few others.
Edit2- If you come out there and need a trop I do have a 1 that is not in my deck right now. Would just need it back by the end of the night.

I'll warn you off Panoptic Mirror. I actually tried that a couple years ago, it was god awful.

Helm/Line has been something I've been tinkering with on and off because it has two strengths:

-) Combo finish, which we've seen from Scape is very strong
-) Leyline is just naturally good atm, because it shuts off Dig Through Time and friends

Here's the problem with Helm/line: Extra leylines are AWFUL. Junk has nothing to do with extra Leylines at all, you just have to eat them when you draw them. BUG can Brainstorm them away, and can also consider running Perilous Research to ditch extras that were in opening hand -- but at that point, you're putting enough more cards into the already unstable BUG shell that the whole thing just collapses. Well, unstable might be the wrong word -- there problem I've always had with BUG is that there's too many cards I want to run, and trying to squeeze in Helm/line on top of that is just really hard.

@Tom: here's an interesting idea for you. What about actual Veteran Reanimator? I'm imagining a sequence as such:

t1 Vet or Therapy, go.
t2 Vet or Therapy, flashback, entomb, reanimate with 1 mana untapped for like Flusterestorm or some shit

Depending on what you're reanimating, Veteran opens up the possibility for strong backup plans like just casting your fatties (Griselbrand for sure, Iona isn't going to happen, but even casting a couple of them is pretty good). Reanimator's been dabbling with Titan territory lately (Grave to beat Liliana and Primeval to fetch up dark depths), which was our territory first anyway. We can also run our bestie Thrag to gain life for more reanimates.

I have no idea what the list would look like, you just put the idea into my head and I'm spitballing. The idea doesn't actually sound awful on the face of it.

[Tom4ik]

Arianrhod, yea I kind of figured panoptic would be just not good enough. Something about it just feels powerful though. I am certainly realistic with this deck though so ill throw that to the back burner for now.

Leyline helm I feel is viable. We have to figure a few things out before I would run it though. One is what do we do with extra copies, bug has brainstorm and probably jace. I would also guess liliana might be there as well which would provide an outlet as well. Junk is kind of SOL so I would guess you either go on the turbo plan of 4 leyline or I might even think RIP is better. Yes you lose value on vets but I think the idea would be sac vet into RIP next turn helm win. If I was junk I think I would actually skip leyline UNLESS we are brewing for maindeck where we would not probably want a Rip helm version.

Bug reanimator is a bit trickier as the cards aside from the targets (and those too probably) are lot more varied in terms of options. One thing I do want to bring up is that 2 card combos are slightly more risky in a deck like nicfit that already wants certain cards in hand. For example, If we have 2 land, vet, explorer, entomb, reanimate, fluster it is a very specific hand with no room for error. What I am getting at is we already want to have vet therapy and a few lands. I would prefer an engine that is more self contained. Smth like where if you have gifts in hand its only 1 card but it accomplishes the same thing. I am not sure gifts is actually good enough but the intuition idea has me thinking about that.

I do like what you said about the fact that some of the fatty options are hard castable.

Maybe they will unban Bargain? Lol, I mean they let us have 1 that already comes with a 7/7 body.

[Ralf]

If you go back a few pages in this thread, I have shared some ideas about a GB Rea Fit list.

I have pondered a lot and unfortunately, there is no space for funky huge monsters unless you have a strong way to discard them or to put back them in the library and even then, I think it would be better to play a standard Reanimator list.

I tried to make a BUG version of a Rea Fit list but eventually failed to it.

Anyway, here are some food for thoughts (that has been tested):

- Prime Titan + DD combo is gross, but it works. Titan remains castable and the synergy with DD+Stage was pretty obvious. Not to mention that reanimating Prime Titan in a deck such as Nic Fit is Xmas in June.

- Uncastable stuff (with CMC > 7) "off color" does not work properly:
1) Dropped Iona
2) Dropped Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3) Griselbrand was castable 1 game out of 20
4) Massacre wurm was castable 10/20
5) Elderscale wurm was castable 10/20
6) Grave Titan is also a very strong option

- Reanimating Prime Titan as your first target is what makes the deck work. Period.

- Two towers + crop rotation are needed to go really "unfair" with super speed and super reliability

- Entomb + loam has a lot of power as well.


The Rea idea is certainly a good one but when I looked into it I hadn't much time to make it works.

Keep us posted anyway !

Here is the latest list we have come up with (6 / 12 months ago):

Rea Fit

1 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
3 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
5 Forest

1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Wickerbough Elder
2 Primeval Titan
4 Veteran Explorer

1 Engineered Explosives

1 Recurring Nightmare

2 Pernicious Deed

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Crop Rotation
4 Entomb
1 Life from the Loam
3 Reanimate
4 Green Sun's Zenith

SB: 1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Natural Order
SB: 4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 Thoughtseize

[Firepaw3]

In case anyone was curious, I did not play legacy at Eternal Weekend and just jammed a bunch of vintage instead. Firepaw was present and on the same plan; I don't know who all else was in attendance, but I'm sure a couple of you made and I didn't know.

Got crushed personally, but the 2nd place finisher in the vintage main event is a friend of mine who was using my exact 76. Randy Buehler gushing on stream about Mikokoro for 10 minutes straight entirely my fault -- you can bless me or curse me for that; both options are probably valid in roughly equal measures.

Not sure how Firepaw did in the main, although I do know he was running pretty hot on the weekend whenever I talked to him. We also jammed vintage for like 3 hours Saturday morning and he had Library on the draw at least 60% of his games, so I'm guessing he did fine.

He was on Prodigy Gifts and I was on my Thieves, ofc.

Hopefully I'll see more of you at Eternal Weekend playing vintage next year -- and, of course, hopefully I'll / we'll actually be playing legacy regularly again by then. I don't even care what changes happen in this format at the moment as long as -something- changes.
Ended 5-2 in the qualifier (17th on breakers :/) and 6-4 in the main, started 6-2 and then it fell apart
Super happy with the deck, just need to find a better answer to shops decks

[Tom4ik]

Did my weekly at Mead Hall. I do not believe they were streaming last night, tech problems I believe. Anyway, went 3-0 and then drew with my buddy round 4 so we could go as it was already late and he was on a UWr landstill brew that we knew would probably take forever.

Beat reanimator in 2. Stole game 1 off probe therapy vet into turbo jace fateseal. I bring in surgical, negate, ooze and a TS

Beat enchantress in 2. Turn 2 Lily, Turn 3 Jace game 1. Game 2 I had no right to win but then I draw notion thief and my mull to 5 with a bunch of lands is ok. I actually deed for 2 here to leave him with an enchant presence to keep my "draw engine" going.

Beat Dnt in 2. Deed did things to him both games.

I was already brewing a different Bug variant (non-explorer) but work got in the way of getting a solid list so I jammed this and didnt drop a game. List does not feel optimal though.

[Whitefaces]

Game 2 I had no right to win but then I draw notion thief and my mull to 5 with a bunch of lands is ok. I actually deed for 2 here to leave him with an enchant presence to keep my "draw engine" going.

That's hilarious!

Nice result, too!

[bruizar]

If you go back a few pages in this thread, I have shared some ideas about a GB Rea Fit list.

- Prime Titan + DD combo is gross, but it works. Titan remains castable and the synergy with DD+Stage was pretty obvious. Not to mention that reanimating Prime Titan in a deck such as Nic Fit is Xmas in June.


I really like this play. All of a sudden you put your opponent in the awkward position of having to answer a 20/20 as well as a primieval titan. Neither can be ignored for more than one turn.

[Gruby]

Just ended playing with friends my punishingfit at kitchen table.
First of all junk is more funfriendly than punishing fit... especially when you can't side veterans for carpets... no blue deck's :(
Rhino, showrds/path, elspeth, knight errant rocks in funplay.


I'm totally thinking about changing kessig wolf run for DD+stage (with main primetime) especially when playing with friends.

[Arianrhod]

So I'm pretty much decided to play this reanimator version brew at Mythic on Saturday -- if it's not viable, I'll just fall flat on my face and go 0-3 and hang with friends the rest of the day, so I'm not exactly too worried about it, and then we'll know.

Here's what I'm at for the moment:

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Jace, Vyrn's Prodigy
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
1
1 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Bullshit

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
3 Show and Tell

4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay

1 Recurring Nightmare

1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island

Sideboard will include an Elesh Norn, a Life from the Loam, and 13 other cards.

There's one open fatty slot maindeck for something that I haven't figured out yet. Shaving a Show and Tell is also possible, but I'm not sure what else I'm missing. This is also 60 cards because of the much more combo oriented nature of the deck and the degree to which it wants certain things in its opening hand.

Thoughts and suggestions, please! We have a day to get this thing into first draft status so it can be jammed on Saturday.

[Mackan]

Anyone tried the new Nissa yet? Seems very good...

[Echelon]

Thoughts and suggestions, please! We have a day to get this thing into first draft status so it can be jammed on Saturday.

I'd stick Elesh Norn in the last reanimation/S&T target slot. It just crushes anyDelver.dec/D&T/Elves/Dredge/Maverick/anything-playing-creatures and lets you turn games around instantly, even if your opponent manages to get rid of it quickly.

Blazing Archon might also be worth running in that slot (or in the SB), since you can expect to be behind on board state by the time you pull off your trick (or just want the ability to turn games 180 degrees vs. opponents that can't get rid of it). Upside of Archon is that it isn't a legend, so you get to ignore Karakas. I've found that to be quite important on a number of occasions.

You might also want to try and run a singleton Diabolic Intent. It can get either part of the trick. If you do, also put a Dryad Arbor in your manabase though, probably instead of a Bayou. Diabolically lets you fetch the body you need to feed the Intent.

It's too bad you don't have room for GSZ, Fierce Empath lets you tutor the fatty you need for S&T and after that is free to be fed to Intent, which either fetches a Cabal Therapy so you can discard said fatty for the reanimation spell you already had in hand, or the S&T you need to plop down the freshly tutored fatty.

[emuhell]

I can see the reanimator version to play out very different compared to basic nicfit approaches.
Especially the things to name with therapy are really depending on which one of your 3 plans to get out a fatty you follow.

That said... S&T is in an awkward spot and I think that 2 would be a better number. Instead increase the amount of library manipulation. Without tops you depent heavily on Brainstorms and/or topdecks. 2+ Ponder should be right.

Also you are not very interactive. Aaand LilianaOTV wants to come to the party - don't you think?

But tbh this list is so far away from any NicFit thing I ever played that I can not say how it will do :).

Good Luck!

[crush]

So I'm pretty much decided to play this reanimator version brew at Mythic on Saturday -- if it's not viable, I'll just fall flat on my face and go 0-3 and hang with friends the rest of the day, so I'm not exactly too worried about it, and then we'll know.

Here's what I'm at for the moment:

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Jace, Vyrn's Prodigy
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
1
1 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Bullshit

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
3 Show and Tell

4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay

1 Recurring Nightmare

1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island

Sideboard will include an Elesh Norn, a Life from the Loam, and 13 other cards.

There's one open fatty slot maindeck for something that I haven't figured out yet. Shaving a Show and Tell is also possible, but I'm not sure what else I'm missing. This is also 60 cards because of the much more combo oriented nature of the deck and the degree to which it wants certain things in its opening hand.

Thoughts and suggestions, please! We have a day to get this thing into first draft status so it can be jammed on Saturday.

This might sound a lot like MTG christmass land, however I would try to find room for 2-3 Tasigurs and 2 Birthing Pods in this list.

Poding Veteran into Jace seems worth a try, also T3 Tasigur into Iona is not that bad :D

Edit: Nevermind, Iona costs 9.. always thought it had CMC 7, but you can tutor up Rune-Scarred Demon.

[Echelon]

2-3 Tasigurs and 2 Birthing Pods in this list.

Hmm, delve creatures and Birthing Pods. Now where did I hear this plan before..? Lol

@emuhell: I've been running with an even more outlandish plan for the longest time. What happens is that you try to play out like a combo deck, more or less. During the game, you try and assemble a hand that beats your opponents'. Basically it boils down to you waiting for your opponent to tap out or for you to strip their hand entirely of countermagic/StP and then take over the game. It requires a great deal of patience and restraint, only blindly casting combo pieces/the important stuff when having multiples, to draw out/spend your opponents' interaction so you can outplay them (hopefully).

[crush]

Hmm, delve creatures and Birthing Pods. Where did I hear this plan before..? Lol

Probably from me.. I know.. I'd better shut up.

[Echelon]

Probably from me.. I know.. I'd better shut up.

Meh, I was on the same train. I even suggested Podding into Fierce Empath to fetch Tasigur :wink:.

[Tom4ik]

I would be tempted to run top in this deck over ponder. Without force we do not need the blue of ponder and with vet we have spare mana. This deck also runs very light on mana so a mana sink for games where you have to keep a suspect hand is fine. I would also wonder if probe has any place. I know Arianrhod you are not a fan of it in Nicfit but we are now a combo deck and the information is crucial. Especially post board where lord knows what type of hate we will see. everything from surgical to rip to just more counters to containment priest. I would try to fit 4 probe. most likely this would be to shave a jace or 2 and possibly a land and the recurring nightmare.

Do you have a plan post board? Or really, do you plan to remain the same deck with adjustments or have a slightly transformational SB? I know you are a vintage player so this would be akin to how Oath is used occiasionally in that it can be boarded out and (usually) walkers get brought in or in that some decks bring in oath vs creature decks.

I would stay away from Pod, delve creatures (though a dig or 2 would probably be ok) and consider shaving 1 show. What I do like about show in this deck is it essentially is just a second copy of a titan because we can then cast the monster.

If we have the loam package in the board I would actually consider a boseju. If we did have that would exhume be better in order to make it resolve vs smth like reanimate? Just a thought.

[Whitefaces]

Tangle Golem/Allosaurus Rider > Griselbrand :cool:

[Echelon]

Tangle Golem/Allosaurus Rider > Griselbrand :cool:

Gurmag Angler :wink:

[Ralf]

Sideboard will include an Elesh Norn, a Life from the Loam, and 13 other cards.

There's one open fatty slot maindeck for something that I haven't figured out yet. Shaving a Show and Tell is also possible, but I'm not sure what else I'm missing. This is also 60 cards because of the much more combo oriented nature of the deck and the degree to which it wants certain things in its opening hand.

Thoughts and suggestions, please! We have a day to get this thing into first draft status so it can be jammed on Saturday.

I would cut AD for Ponder.

[tadskosh]

I am planning on taking this list to a SCGIQ next weekend:

Creatures:
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Eternal Witness
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Varolz, the Scar-Striped
1x Siege Rhino
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Thragtusk
1x Dragonlord Dromoka
1x Primeval Titan

Spells:
2x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Garruk, Primal Hunter

Land:
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath
2x Bayou
3x Swamp
2x Plains
2x Scrubland
4x Forest
1x Savannah

Sideboard
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Council's Judgment
2x Engineered Plague
1x Life from the Loam
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Spike Weaver
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Swords to Plowshares
1x Yeva, Nature's Herald

Any criticisms or suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you.

[Arianrhod]

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
3 Jace, Vyrn's Prodigy
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
1 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Reanimate
2 Show and Tell
1 Life from the Loam

4 Brainstorm
4 Entomb

1 Recurring Nightmare

1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island

//sb
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Krosan Grip
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Massacre Wurm
2 Duress

This is the list I settled on to test at Mythic today. I went 3-2, finishing 11 out of 28. Considering I how cold I went into this event, that's actually a very solid result and I'll be continuing to work on the deck.

Played vs the following:

Imperial Painter (loss)
Junk Stoneforge (win)
Elves (win)
UR Delver (loss)
Shardless BUG (win)

Both of the losses were super close -- I was consistently one turn behind Imperial and his draws were very good on top of that, and all of my games vs UR Delver were very tight and a couple of different draws or slightly weaker Digs by my opponent could've easily tipped that.

All of my wins felt pretty solid. Junkblade was probably the hardest matchup of the matches I won, but I still felt pretty favored.

Quick hits and misses because I'm tired and want to sleep:

Hits:
Babiest Jace feels like The Truth. The card does some very unfair things, both in general and in this deck specifically.
the sideboarded TNNs were amazing
Entomb's raw flexibility is amazing -- entombing Cabal Therapy is the greatest feeling in the world, as is using Entomb as a literal 1-mana instant tutor when you have a flipped Jace.
Thrags were great when they showed up.
Never thought I'd say this, but Grave Titan was very strong. I guess making the card cost 2 or 3 mana makes it actually playable.
Reanimate for value. I reanimated multiple Veterans, Jace-Vyrns, Strixes, and opponent cards over the course of the event. All of them felt correct and powerful.
Show and Tell -- as exactly a 2 of. I wasn't high on the card going into the event, but as a 2-of it was actually fine. I would not run more.

Misses:
Thragtusk never being drawn.
Oddly, the Primeval package. I only went for it like two or three times on the day, and I only actually made one Merit Lage. The other two times I grabbed the lands, I ended up having -better- things to do than make a 20/20.
On the subject of lands, I actually felt like I was a land heavy. Brainstorms, Entombs and Reanimates to tie Veterans together tighter, Loam....all combined to make me want to draw fewer lands than usual.
Baleful Strix was added as a way to sneak in some "removal" interaction while also cycling. It did not feel as good in this deck as I expected it to. They, or some number of them, may still be correct...not sure.
Overall, the Snapcaster. It did threaten a HILARIOUSLY broken line of play involving Nightmare and an Entomb in my yard once, but overall the Jace-Vryns did what Snap wants to do, but better.
Iona was hot garbage, but I didn't play against Omni on the day. She threatened to steal g1 from Painter, though, so that's something. She's probably a necessity (also for burn), but it doesn't feel good.
The sideboard other than the TNNs. I boarded in the Grips and the Decays a fair amount, but I had trouble drawing into them. Massacre Wurm happened vs Elves but should've prob just been Elesh.

To sum:

Probably dropping the Primeval package.
Probably just cutting a land or possibly even 2 (21-22 final).
I need more ways to make Entomb valuable as a CA engine when there's nothing else to do with it. I had a couple of late Entombs that were useless on the day, so having more sweet spells to Entomb is on my short list.
I need to be a little more interactive maindeck. I miss having removal and sweepers, and I want some amount of it back. I realize I'm not going to be able to have as much as a traditional Nic Fit variety, but I want some maindeck.

That's all I can think of for now. More in the morning if there's questions/comments.

Oh, and I did try Ponder @Ralf. They didn't feel right at all -- that's where the Strix idea came from, actually. I felt I wanted more creatures and to be doing more things rather than just cantripping more, so I moved them into the Strixes from there. But yeah, they were in for probably 6-8 games Friday night and just did not feel right. Same with Probe, which was also tried. Actually, with Probe the problem was more the life loss than the deck slot being eaten. 2 life doesn't seem that incredibly steep, but it actually caused issues.

PS / closing thought: best moment of the day.
Vs Elves, g1.

Swamp go into forest symbiote go.
fetch, break, therapy myself naming Grave Titan, reanimate Grave Titan, sac a token to flashback Therapy, target him, name Elvish Visionary, hit two.
t3 swing, snapcaster reanimate a visionary.

I won that game.

[CountryCaravan]

So I've been mulling over the Leap deck some more, and figure this would be a good core:

4x Veteran Explorer
4x Evolutionary Leap
4x Living Wish
4x Enlightened Tutor
Lots of basics (mostly forests)
Fetchlands + 1x Dryad Arbor

Where I'm undecided now is how to fill out the rest of the deck. Should I look more into an Enchantress package for card advantage and prison pieces? Perhaps the Helm/RIP combo, or just some planeswalkers for value? Also, what are some good noncreature Enlightened Tutor pieces that would help with protecting me and the combo?

[DireLemming]

@Arianrhod: that's the first time in a long time I'm excited about a Nic Fit built. One omission that immediately jumps at me is Glen Elendra Archmage. I'm also toying with Sylvan Library. It interacts amusingly with Jace and helps with all the one-offs and situational fatties (Top might be good here as well, but I got the impression this deck wants to play a pretty aggressive and mana-efficient game). Also, FOW in the sideboard makes combo much less scary.

[Ganfar]

Anyone has a updated Junk nic-fit list? At least 3 rhinos and nightmare in the deck.

Is Sun Titan good or just cute in the junk nic fit?

[uncletiggy]

Sun titan is just cute you are better served with a grave titan and there's better options. The second sigarda or the first dromoka are better evasive threats with some level of protection. You're going to want something game breaking at six mana in junk fit the four and five drops just keep getting better leaving no room for titans.

[Arianrhod]

I personally still like the Sun Titan, but I tend to play more controlly and titandeed is just too insane when you're playing for control.

[moseby]

Anyone has a updated Junk nic-fit list? At least 3 rhinos and nightmare in the deck.

Is Sun Titan good or just cute in the junk nic fit?

The few times I played sun titan I always wanted Grave. If you are splashing white I would strongly suggest 2-3 academy rectors for various and assorted bombs.


Arianrhod,
That list is absolutely outstanding!

[Julien]

4 Veteran Explorer
Misses:
Thragtusk never being drawn.
Oddly, the Primeval package. I only went for it like two or three times on the day, and I only actually made one Merit Lage. The other two times I grabbed the lands, I ended up having -better- things to do than make a 20/20.
On the subject of lands, I actually felt like I was a land heavy. Brainstorms, Entombs and Reanimates to tie Veterans together tighter, Loam....all combined to make me want to draw fewer lands than usual.
Baleful Strix was added as a way to sneak in some "removal" interaction while also cycling. It did not feel as good in this deck as I expected it to. They, or some number of them, may still be correct...not sure.
Overall, the Snapcaster. It did threaten a HILARIOUSLY broken line of play involving Nightmare and an Entomb in my yard once, but overall the Jace-Vryns did what Snap wants to do, but better.
Iona was hot garbage, but I didn't play against Omni on the day. She threatened to steal g1 from Painter, though, so that's something. She's probably a necessity (also for burn), but it doesn't feel good.
The sideboard other than the TNNs. I boarded in the Grips and the Decays a fair amount, but I had trouble drawing into them. Massacre Wurm happened vs Elves but should've prob just been Elesh.

To sum:

Probably dropping the Primeval package.
Probably just cutting a land or possibly even 2 (21-22 final).
I need more ways to make Entomb valuable as a CA engine when there's nothing else to do with it. I had a couple of late Entombs that were useless on the day, so having more sweet spells to Entomb is on my short list.
I need to be a little more interactive maindeck. I miss having removal and sweepers, and I want some amount of it back. I realize I'm not going to be able to have as much as a traditional Nic Fit variety, but I want some maindeck.


I'm kind of new to the format but I'm really intrigued by this list, so here's some ideas towards the changes you advocated.

-1 Primeval Titan
-1 Dark Depths
-1 Thespian's Stage
-1 Baleful Strix
+1 Elesh Norn
+1 Wasteland
+2 Pernicious Deed

Wasteland can be entombed if you have a life from the loam in hand, or, more often, you can entomb for life from the loam to start a wasteland engine.
Elesh norn seems pretty decent considering the multitude of cheap creatures you play: Strix, Jace, Snapcaster, Explorer.
Pernicious deed is obvious but is a good sweeper for delver and such. Doesn't play the best with Strix and Jace but you can always try to flip Jace before you activate deed.

I had a few ideas for sideboard entomb targets, including Memory's Journey, Deep Analysis, and Vengeful Pharaoh. Pharaoh seems potentially very powerful, turning your entomb into a kill spell that is uncounterable once entomb has resolved. Pharaoh also plays well with Jace and in a pinch, a 5 mana 5/4 deathtouch isn't the worst think you could cast.

[Arianrhod]

I'm kind of new to the format but I'm really intrigued by this list, so here's some ideas towards the changes you advocated.

-1 Primeval Titan
-1 Dark Depths
-1 Thespian's Stage
-1 Baleful Strix
+1 Elesh Norn
+1 Wasteland
+2 Pernicious Deed

Wasteland can be entombed if you have a life from the loam in hand, or, more often, you can entomb for life from the loam to start a wasteland engine.
Elesh norn seems pretty decent considering the multitude of cheap creatures you play: Strix, Jace, Snapcaster, Explorer.
Pernicious deed is obvious but is a good sweeper for delver and such. Doesn't play the best with Strix and Jace but you can always try to flip Jace before you activate deed.

I had a few ideas for sideboard entomb targets, including Memory's Journey, Deep Analysis, and Vengeful Pharaoh. Pharaoh seems potentially very powerful, turning your entomb into a kill spell that is uncounterable once entomb has resolved. Pharaoh also plays well with Jace and in a pinch, a 5 mana 5/4 deathtouch isn't the worst think you could cast.

I came to a couple of these conclusions myself. My current list is thus:

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Aetherling
1 Sphinx of Uthuun
1 Griselbrand

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Reanimate
2 Show and Tell
1 Life from the Loam
1 Deep Analysis
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Brainstorm
4 Entomb

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island

//sb
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Krosan Grip
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Flusterstorm
2 Duress
1 Glen Elendra Archmage

General thoughts:

It's possibly correct to keep the Iona maindeck just to really stick it to Omni, but I want to test Sphinx of Uthuun. I will not definitively say that that guy will be staying in the deck.

Aetherling fills the Primeval Titan slot as "here is a win condition that is a royal pain in the ass to deal with." Unlike Titan/Depths, it's much less clunky and will actually beat Miracles since they can never get rid of it as long as you're intelligent about leaving phasing mana up.

I really wanted more interaction in the deck, and there were multiple times on the day where I wanted Pernicious Deed. That being said, we're running Brainstorm and we're also not as much of a control deck as traditional Nic Fit, so I opted for only two copies. I also for sure wanted a spot removal spell that I could entomb to flashback with Jace. Pulse is the strongest option here by far since you're spending 0 mana on the flashback itself, and Pulse will answer the widest array of problems.

Continuing with Entomb value, I put in a Deep Analysis. 3 life for 2 cards is a steeper rate than I really want to play, but being able to turn Entomb into cards is just too relevant to ignore, and Think Twice is not even close to as good as DA.

The Wasteland is mostly for problem lands like Karakas, Tabernacle, Creeping Tar Pit, etc. Obviously some percentage of games we can do obnoxious things with Loam, but I don't expect that to happen very often.

I cut the 4th Strix and the Snapcaster to make room for the Deeds, which I think is fine. Losing a Strix was a little unfortunate, but there wasn't really any other space to make if I wanted to fit in everything new.

Sideboard mostly just features a couple of upgrades (Massacre Wurm -> Elesh, etc). I thought about running Force of Will in the sideboard, but realistically I don't know that I want to go down the road of double 4-ofs in the board. The TNNs already eat up a lot of space, but they're also basically necessary as a strong plan B post-board -- my common board plan involving them was -2 Entomb, -2 Reanimate, +4 TNN, which actually worked quite nicely. I also like diversifying the sideboard, as most of you know, and I think that 2 Duress 2 Flusterstorm is probably a stronger sideboard than 4 Force of Will in those slots.

I'm probably not going to be able to really test this any further until my local runs legacy again in two weeks, so by all means throw it together and get some work done. This deck actually felt very strong...weird, but very strong. My best advice I can give from a play perspective as opposed to a building one is to -always- keep your options open. As much as Entomb-Reanimate is nice, it's not actually always the plan. Be flexible at all times, keep in mind that your opponents' graveyard is your playground as much as your own is, and that Entomb can solve basically any problem you might be having, somehow.

[Moroklumpen]

I'm considering an Abzan colored Living Wish build with some bullets in the side and the DarkStage combo. Has it been tried with any success in the not too distant past? Does anyone have any tips or suggestions?

[moseby]

I'm considering an Abzan colored Living Wish build with some bullets in the side and the DarkStage combo. Has it been tried with any success in the not too distant past? Does anyone have any tips or suggestions?

If you have your heart set on this route I would strongly suggest running KORT's, and maybe crop rotations. I have seen a couple of junk type lists of this sort.

[Moroklumpen]

Knight of the Reliquary is one of my favorite cards ever, and one of my incentives to try such a build. I'm less enthusiastic about Crop Rotation; I like it but the idea is that Living Wish will fill that role with a bit more reliability (at the cost of EoT shenanigans, I know).

[uncletiggy]

Page 91 has my current crop rotation kotr list its a couple cards off but its a good starting point to tweak to your liking. I know ive cut atleast one land since then I believe a Savannah.

[jbone2016]

I'm considering an Abzan colored Living Wish build with some bullets in the side and the DarkStage combo. Has it been tried with any success in the not too distant past? Does anyone have any tips or suggestions?

I had a list a while ago that was running living wish package with feeder/thune combo. Didn't have dark depths combo though.

[Julien]

It's possibly correct to keep the Iona maindeck just to really stick it to Omni, but I want to test Sphinx of Uthuun. I will not definitively say that that guy will be staying in the deck.

Aetherling fills the Primeval Titan slot as "here is a win condition that is a royal pain in the ass to deal with." Unlike Titan/Depths, it's much less clunky and will actually beat Miracles since they can never get rid of it as long as you're intelligent about leaving phasing mana up.

I really wanted more interaction in the deck, and there were multiple times on the day where I wanted Pernicious Deed. That being said, we're running Brainstorm and we're also not as much of a control deck as traditional Nic Fit, so I opted for only two copies. I also for sure wanted a spot removal spell that I could entomb to flashback with Jace. Pulse is the strongest option here by far since you're spending 0 mana on the flashback itself, and Pulse will answer the widest array of problems.

Continuing with Entomb value, I put in a Deep Analysis. 3 life for 2 cards is a steeper rate than I really want to play, but being able to turn Entomb into cards is just too relevant to ignore, and Think Twice is not even close to as good as DA.

The Wasteland is mostly for problem lands like Karakas, Tabernacle, Creeping Tar Pit, etc. Obviously some percentage of games we can do obnoxious things with Loam, but I don't expect that to happen very often.

I cut the 4th Strix and the Snapcaster to make room for the Deeds, which I think is fine. Losing a Strix was a little unfortunate, but there wasn't really any other space to make if I wanted to fit in everything new.

Sideboard mostly just features a couple of upgrades (Massacre Wurm -> Elesh, etc). I thought about running Force of Will in the sideboard, but realistically I don't know that I want to go down the road of double 4-ofs in the board. The TNNs already eat up a lot of space, but they're also basically necessary as a strong plan B post-board -- my common board plan involving them was -2 Entomb, -2 Reanimate, +4 TNN, which actually worked quite nicely. I also like diversifying the sideboard, as most of you know, and I think that 2 Duress 2 Flusterstorm is probably a stronger sideboard than 4 Force of Will in those slots.

I'm probably not going to be able to really test this any further until my local runs legacy again in two weeks, so by all means throw it together and get some work done. This deck actually felt very strong...weird, but very strong. My best advice I can give from a play perspective as opposed to a building one is to -always- keep your options open. As much as Entomb-Reanimate is nice, it's not actually always the plan. Be flexible at all times, keep in mind that your opponents' graveyard is your playground as much as your own is, and that Entomb can solve basically any problem you might be having, somehow.

Looks like 61 cards, is that intentional?

I proxied the deck and got a few matches in; will do many more this week but here's my two cents:

An entire third of the deck is CMC 1 (twenty cards). This makes early game Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance a real issue. For that reason, I think uncounterable answers to both cards are necessary (in the form of Abrupt Decay). Abrupt Decay is useful in general, stopping Lilianas and Stoneforges etc. Pernicious Deed and Maelstrom Pulse are both reasonable answers but they are much too slow to stop something like a turn 1 Chalice and can be countered.

Rather than run Deep Analysis, I think it is better to just cut an Entomb and see it less often. It will still be sub-par without another card backing it up but at least you won't draw it as often. There is still Cabal Therapy and Jace to put fatties in the yard, as well as simply having them get countered and reanimating them later.

I'd rather have Elesh Norn than Sphinx of Uthuun. Sphinx is great card advantage but the fact that Elesh can sweep the board as well as put you right back on the attack is huge. You can't hardcast her and some matchups she is relatively week, but you always get a big team buff which makes her pretty relevant.

I'd love to find a place for a Sylvan Library but at this point I can't think of a logical cut for it.

Overall changes:

-1 Sphinx of Uthuun
+1 Elesh Norn

-1 Deep Analysis
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-1 Pernicious Deed
-1 Entomb
+3 Abrupt Decay

(from 61 to 60 cards)

[Echelon]

I have hardcast Elesh Norn on multiple occasions. But that's me, I'm silly like that. It mostly takes a lot of patience. And 2 basic Plains. So that's a no-go for BUG Fit, lol.

I do agree with it being in the main 60 though. The chance of whiffing with that Sphinx is just too big. In most games, the opportunity to bring back a fattie succesfully presents itself only once, or twice at best. So when you do pull it off, you want to make sure it counts. Even if your opponent draws an answer to Elesh Norn the next turn, the damage will have been done. Same goes for the Aetherling, I'd switch that for Iona. You already have a better "look, here's a target - shoot it" in Grave Titan, Iona in the MB gives you an extra angle to attack any random deck.

Admittedly though I come from the Summoner's Egg school of doing things, so I'm spoiled by having GSZ to Fierce Empath and 4 MB Diabolic Intent to fetch the opportune fattie at any given moment (I even run an Emrakul for the hell of it). Surprisingly, Elesh Norn is often a better pick then Emrakul, lol.

On another note - Karador, Ghost Chieftain might be a nice fit for the standard Nic Fit build over Recurring Nightmare (given that the decks also runs a number of GSZ and at least 1 Fierce Empath). Seems like a nice value engine. Might just be too cute for it to be worth it though.

[Tom4ik]

@Reanimation-Fit -I would still recommend probe in this deck. I would cut a land, the pulse, the loam and one of your fatty targets. I think the information is worth the loss of some flexible cards.

I am going to just run back the same list I played last week considering I went 3-0 in pretty convincing fashion I kind of feel obligated to give it another run. If I do poorly with it this week I will jump into the combo-Fit party.

[CountryCaravan]

Finally proxied up, did some goldfishing, and took the Leap build out for a test drive. This was my initial build (don't judge me too harshly, this is my first legacy deck):

Deck Core
4x Veteran Explorer
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Evolutionary Leap
4x Living Wish

Support
4x Mox Diamond
2x Cabal Therapy
1x Elephant Grass
1x Pithing Needle
2x Sylvan Library
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Oblivion Ring
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Smokestack
3x Lingering Souls
2x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Batterskull

Lands
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Savannah
1x Bayou
9x Forest
2x Plains
1x Swamp

Wishboard:
3x Thoughtseize
2x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Sundering Titan
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
2x Eternal Witness
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Maze of Ith
1x Bojuka Bog


Here's what I found:
-The "Explorer-Leap" combo is both easy to assemble and incredibly powerful. Getting a creature of some sort in play is effortless in a deck with this many token producers, Explorers, and fetches; Leap is essentially a one-card combo. Suffice to say I regularly found myself with 11 lands in play on turn 3.

-This build didn't have nearly enough interaction or powerful plays outside of Wish targets; opponents could afford to let the combo go off, counter Wish, and tempo me out from there. More action is necessary; a good X spell wouldn't go amiss. Any suggestions?

-The mana is pretty awful, but a consequence of wanting so many forests to go off. Mox Diamond was a godsend, letting me spew out lands a turn early and providing a convenient White or Black source later on.

-Getting cute with Enlightened Tutor targets in the maindeck was generally a bad idea. Elephant Grass was a bust, and Pithing Needle was unspectacular. Smokestack, however, was fantastic in the games it resolved.

[Echelon]

@CountryCaravan: What I'm missing is a decent and robust clock. That's where and why you need more creatures. You also need a lot more removal, hence tempo decks still beating you down post-"combo" (if it doesn't win you the game/draw your entire deck, I don't count it as a combo) and you should never, ever cut Cabal Therapies from the MB. They're so incredibly important in disrupting your opponents' plan, which is ever so important if you're taking a combo-style approach to your win. You need to make absolutely sure your opponent cannot stop what you're trying to do post-combo.

Heck, if you were to give it another go I'd advice you to go up to 4 Cabal Therapy and add in 4 Thoughtseize or Duress to strip your opponents' hand clean before wishing for a win con. Also, add another basic swamp so you can get at least 2 discard spells off in 1 turn from Vet-Ex land.

[uncletiggy]

If you'd like to explore trying to break leap id be looking at a scapeshift kill and burning wish.



4 leap
4 explorer
4 therapy
4 wish
3 scape
4 gsz
3 deed
3 top
1 intent
3 decay
4 ? Bolt/blast/probe/meta dependant

4 tiaga
3 badlands
2 bayou
2 mountain
2 valakult
1 swamp
6 forest
3 verdant catacombs

[Philipp2293]

I'm looking at a Token/PW Build with Leap and Explorer/Rector.

Something like:

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Academy Rector

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Evolutionary Leap
4 Cabal Therapy

1 Token-Producing Rector Target (Heliod?)
1 CA-Rector Target (Sylvan Library, Phyrexian Arena, Erebos?)
1 Mass Pump Rector Target (There's an enchantment which gives I think +3/+3, or maybe the Lifelink/Doublestrike Enchantment, since I want some Lifegain in here)

3/4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Lingering Souls

5/6 additional slots for finishers (I do like the Living Wish Idea here, since it allows to get around the Leap restriction, but not sure if I really want a big Toolbox in the SB, since I feel I have to devote quite some SB space to combo for games 2&3), maybe 2 Wishes as additional punches to get some game ending bombs and 3-4 Planeswalkers (2 Elspeth, 1 Sorin, 1 new Gideon, since instant Anthem sounds tempting)

23 Lands

No clue about SB yet, depending on if I want to run Living Wish or not.

[Tom4ik]

Only played 3 rounds last night. Ended up just drawing round 4 with lands to head home early as it was pretty late.
2-0 Ponder Miracles. G1 Early Liliana did work, the ultimate bought me enough time to get in with a tarpit as well. G2 aggressively reb'd a BS bait and then I untapped into Jace and drew too many cards for him.
0-2 Esper mentor. Lost a grind fest G1 after a mull to 5. G2-I kept a 1 land, 2 strix, decay, liliana, dig, BS. Would you keep? I did and didnt draw a 2nd land so I died....
2-0 DnT. The absurdity of Deed against them when you have Liliana and Jace...

[CountryCaravan]

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

@Echelon Thanks, I'm definitely seeing the value in more Therapies as I keep playing with this deck. 4 Therapies and 4 Lingering Souls (hard to answer clock, resilient to countermagic) seems like a better start; I'm not sure about so many Thoughtsiezes though; as you mentioned, the deck needs a bit more action, so I'll go for one in the main and the remainder in the sideboard.

@uncletiggy I'm not sure a Scapeshift plan is particularly more robust; it's still similarly weak to the same thing this deck is (let you go off, counter Living Wish) without as much on-board interaction, and you don't get to search as easily as you'd like. I'd like the deck to be able to play a normal Nic Fit gameplan.

@Phillip2293 Rector is something I thought about as well, but I haven't found anything truly worthy of cheating into play just yet. I'm a bigger fan of Enlightened Tutor for that purpose, especially since it finds you your combo and gets stuff like Batterskull when you need action and O-Ring when you need removal. Top is also an interesting consideration, though I'm not really sure what it's trying to accomplish in your list. I'd also like to point out that the Gods interfere with your Leap chain; I'd avoid them in this build.

Updated list:
Deck Core
4x Veteran Explorer
3x Enlightened Tutor
4x Evolutionary Leap
4x Living Wish

Support
2x Mox Diamond
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Thoughtseize
2x Sylvan Library
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Smokestack
4x Lingering Souls
1x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Batterskull
1x Decree of Justice

Lands
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Savannah
2x Bayou
8x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp

Wishboard:

3x Thoughtseize
2x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Rest in Peace
1x Engineered Plague
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Sundering Titan
1x Eternal Witness
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Maze of Ith
1x Bojuka Bog

[Firepaw3]

I came to a couple of these conclusions myself. My current list is thus:

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Aetherling
1 Sphinx of Uthuun
1 Griselbrand

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Reanimate
2 Show and Tell
1 Life from the Loam
1 Deep Analysis
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Brainstorm
4 Entomb

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island

//sb
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Krosan Grip
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Flusterstorm
2 Duress
1 Glen Elendra Archmage


Tested this list with elesh over sphinx in the maindeck against stoneblade and miracles, it may just be the matchups/limited testing, but loam felt very useless everytime i had access to it. The deep analysis was amazing and i found myself wanting more then just one thing to entomb with no jace/reanimate in hand. i was thinking of -1 loam +1 worm harvest just for value late game, or -1 waste +1 ravens crime to make sure late game spells stick when in topdeck mode

[Tom4ik]

Why are we playing Lingering souls in the living wish version? This deck no long can or will play a grindy game. There is very little that you will find those are helpful against. I would drop the garruks, equipment, souls, smokestack(why is this here?) and decree. Gsz is better tho I doubt we need 4. Top is better than sylvan as you can use it multiple times between leaps/shuffles to find the wish. I would think we also need some way to recur wish against discard/counter.

I do not mind some MD alt win con besides wish but I think it needs to be more immediate than a Bskull or PW.

@Reanimation-Fit - If you have enough lands to make wurm harvest a thing you should be playing Dig through time to use the graveyard.

[CountryCaravan]

Why are we playing Lingering souls in the living wish version? This deck no long can or will play a grindy game. There is very little that you will find those are helpful against. I would drop the garruks, equipment, souls, smokestack(why is this here?) and decree. Gsz is better tho I doubt we need 4. Top is better than sylvan as you can use it multiple times between leaps/shuffles to find the wish. I would think we also need some way to recur wish against discard/counter.

I do not mind some MD alt win con besides wish but I think it needs to be more immediate than a Bskull or PW.

@Reanimation-Fit - If you have enough lands to make wurm harvest a thing you should be playing Dig through time to use the graveyard.

Not sure why you don't think the deck can't play a long or grindy game; it's what Nic Fit is generally designed to do, anyway. Usually going off with Leap will get you around 11 lands into play; this is enough to cast a whole slew of finishers from Decree to Batterskull to Living Wish for a big monstrosity. I'm not a fan of GSZ at all; it's a dead card once you go off, and fetching for Dryad Arbor/saccing a token is a much more reliable way to get the Explorer chain going. Souls has been an all-star at holding off attackers, providing a clock, and giving you bodies to sac to Leap and Therapy.

Good points in favor of Top (During playtesting I realized that you can sac tokens to Leap for the shuffle even with no creatures in library), but you really don't have a ton of extra mana to spare during the chain. I also prefer the card advantage aspect of Library; I've found it to be an essential E-Tutor target.

[uncletiggy]

@ caravan- if you use the four leftover slots for living wish you can add a boseju and a fattie to the board to either push threw the scape kill or go another route. I think you are under estimating the scape kill especially turbo charged with leap. The numbers arent necessarily right but there's merit to the concept. Im a gbw player personally and more interested in making rector/doubling season work with leap and walkers but im convinced scape is where the card belongs if anywhere in legacy. Id also like to add you can drop to six forests 12 basics is entirely too many. The last explorer trigger should be grabing your other colors.

[Tom4ik]

I do not believe this deck can play a long game against most decks is because your deck is filled with pieces that are redundant once you go off. Etutor and leaps take up a fair amount of the deck. I would not find this deck advantaged after "going off" against miracles, omni, storm, any deck packing mentor, jace, etc. I am not saying that you dont have powerful draws in the deck but that you spent multiple cards in your hand (2 at least) and interacted with the opponent not at all. That is very dangerous. We have CA disadvantage in Moxs, etutor, deed (along with anything we play from the maindeck because they are all tokens).

My advice, for what its worth to you, is that the only way this deck is viable is if you go so over the top you are going to run over whatever your opponent does. This is done by maximizing the living wish. I still think all this work for a living wish creature may not be a better shell than just running the post mana base.

If you are concerned with CA why is sylvan library where you are going to? It takes multiple turns. If your goal is to try to have 8 mana out on turn 4 I am sure we have better options.

Btw, you said you proxied it up and played it? what was the match ups? I think that would be a help too. some decks just dont look good on paper but play out much stronger.

[CountryCaravan]

The playtesting was only a few run-throughs against my friend's combo elf deck and a modern version of RUG Delver. Not ideal, but enough to get a sense for how the deck plays out. Elves is frustrating and requires sideboard help; giving your opponent 8 free Rampant Growths is not generally a winning proposition. Delver was a fair matchup; Deed was enough to sweep up the ground while I dug for win conditions and Lingering Souls was great at clogging stuff up, but countermagic was troublesome when I was on the draw and I was led to realize that I was threat-light.

I agree that going over the top with powerful enough plays is important, but I feel it's equally important to make sure that those plays resolve, and that even when you don't go off. Decree of Justice was specifically chosen because it can't be countered; Smokestack because it's a tutorable way to leverage your mana advantage. Perhaps another mana sink like Mastery of the Unseen is just better, but I can't say for sure yet. For what it's worth, after going off, you will have eliminated a substantial chunk of lands and all the Veteran Explorers from your deck; much of what remains will be gas or ways to find it.

And I might be underestimating the Scapeshift kill simply due to my lack of experience with it. I'm just not sure that adding red and going all-in combo is the best way to win; I also feel like Zenith is a particularly poor way to go about starting the chain.

[pettdan]

Here is a very rough idea on a more conventional evolutionary fit list. Will try to test some, which should show which parts, if any, that are good in this list. Blue should probably be skipped.

The idea here is to use discard and removal to survive the first couple turns, then lock down combo by "leaping" for Glen Elendra or fight the fair game with Batterskulls and Mentors. Mentor tokens provide additional card advantage when sacrificing for new threats. And the SDT + Mentor combo that I've been waiting try out in Nic Fit since it was spoiled. With the ramping we can quickly make mentor hurt.

Control elements:
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Reclamation Sage

Threats:
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Batterskull
1 Sigarda
0 Lingering Souls

Ramp, creature selection etc:
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Evolutionary Leap
3 Green Suns Zenith
2 Deathrite Shaman

Card selection, recycling etc:
1 Academy Rector
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Eternal Witness
1 Recurring Nightmare

Lands:
1 Dryad Arbor
3 forest
2 swamp
1 island
2 plains
2 bayou
1 tropical island
1 savannah
4 verdant catacombs
4 windswept heath

SB:
Gaddock Teeg + hatebears
Discard
Glen Elendra #3-4
Stuff vs lands and 12post
...


Btw, really cool Reanimator Fit list. I'll have to try that soon.

[uncletiggy]

@ caravan my advice to you is download cockatrice and get some games agaisnt real legacy decks before trying something off the wall. Elves plays exactly two forest so there wont be 8 rampant growths and modern delver is not playing brainstorm force wasteland ponder or daze these factors are all skewing your decks developement. When designing a new deck you first have to look at the meta and decide what decks you need to beat and then decide on a way to interact favorably versus them. Right now you're durdling in magic christmas land.

[CountryCaravan]

@ caravan my advice to you is download cockatrice and get some games agaisnt real legacy decks before trying something off the wall. Elves plays exactly two forest so there wont be 8 rampant growths and modern delver is not playing brainstorm force wasteland ponder or daze these factors are all skewing your decks developement. When designing a new deck you first have to look at the meta and decide what decks you need to beat and then decide on a way to interact favorably versus them. Right now you're durdling in magic christmas land.

More or less. Still baby steps at this point, and my local meta isn't particularly competitive (most can't afford dual lands, so I'm running up against monocolored budget brews with a lot of basics a lot). Still working out the kinks with cockatrice, but I'm still in the brewing stage, so hopefully I'll be able to get some real playtesting hours in soon enough and find more meaningful competition.

[Philipp2293]

@Pettdan: As stupid as it sounds, but between Top, Rector and Leap I want to see a Recycle in the list, could make Mentor even more brutal ;)

[Echelon]

@CountryCaravan: You do know Dryad Arbor gets fetched by Evolutionary Leap, right? Might accidentally end your combo turn when Leaping into that after having played a land.

Also, you mentioned you struggled with counter magic. That's because, as I said, you try to close out the game like a combo deck. And, like a combo deck, you need that extra discard to get rid of whatever is able to stop your game winning hand. Try to add another Pernicious Deed to the list, and 3/4 Path to Exile. You need to be able to take care of threats while manoeuvring to that point where you outplay your opponent and quickly close the game.

On a side note, I think you would want to find a Wish-target that cannot be Submerged etc. Opponents do topdeck spotremoval or do hide it from your discard with Brainstorm. Another option is to forfeit the Wish package and go on a planeswalker demolition route. Rather than durdle with Wishes and getting your fatties countered, play 6+ planeswalkers to take over the game post-Pernicious Deed. Token producing planeswalkers also play incredibly well with Cabal Therapy and, to extent, Diabolic Intent.

Or to mix the 2 approaches up - run Glittering Wish instead of Living Wish. It can fetch all kinds of fun cards, according to the situation you find yourself in. Planeswalkers, utility creatures (think Gaddock Teeg), finisher like Sigarda, enchantments like Teferi's Moat, whatever floats your boat.

[uncletiggy]

If your meta is mostly mono colored budget brews explorer is not the best place to be id pack lots of deeds and decays and the trifecta of thrun sigarda and dromoka. Play the hard board control route foucus more on spot removal and sweepers and less on combo hate. Expect a lot of burn merfolk and watered down deaath and taxes.

[Echelon]

You know what - the more I think about Karador, Ghost Chieftain, the more I like it. Consider the following combinations:

Eternal Witness + Diabolic Intent is pretty much a wet dream where every turn you get to cast (an expensive) Demonic Tutor.
Eternal Witness + Phyrexian Tower + any discard spell = your opponent goes into topdeck mode.
Eternal Witness + Phyrexian Tower + Path to Exile = enjoy your creatures while they last.
Eternal Witness + Pernicious Deed = well... you get the picture.

Your opponent Wastelands your Tower? Meh, just kill off the Witness, recast it and hello, Tower. Might need a Sylvan Safekeeper to, well, keep Karador safe.

[Ganfar]

You know what - the more I think about Karador, Ghost Chieftain, the more I like it. Consider the following combinations:

Eternal Witness + Diabolic Intent is pretty much a wet dream where every turn you get to cast (an expensive) Demonic Tutor.
Eternal Witness + Phyrexian Tower + any discard spell = your opponent goes into topdeck mode.
Eternal Witness + Phyrexian Tower + Path to Exile = enjoy your creatures while they last.
Eternal Witness + Pernicious Deed = well... you get the picture.

Your opponent Wastelands your Tower? Meh, just kill off the Witness, recast it and hello, Tower. Might need a Sylvan Safekeeper to, well, keep Karador safe.
You can only cast a creture from the graveyard once per turn.

[uncletiggy]

Reccuring nightmare is strictly better for looping any creature aand doubles as a sac outlet, protects itself, and can be used multiple times turn.

[CountryCaravan]

@CountryCaravan: You do know Dryad Arbor gets fetched by Evolutionary Leap, right? Might accidentally end your combo turn when Leaping into that after having played a land.

Also, you mentioned you struggled with counter magic. That's because, as I said, you try to close out the game like a combo deck. And, like a combo deck, you need that extra discard to get rid of whatever is able to stop your game winning hand. Try to add another Pernicious Deed to the list, and 3/4 Path to Exile. You need to be able to take care of threats while manoeuvring to that point where you outplay your opponent and quickly close the game.

On a side note, I think you would want to find a Wish-target that cannot be Submerged etc. Opponents do topdeck spotremoval or do hide it from your discard with Brainstorm. Another option is to forfeit the Wish package and go on a planeswalker demolition route. Rather than durdle with Wishes and getting your fatties countered, play 6+ planeswalkers to take over the game post-Pernicious Deed. Token producing planeswalkers also play incredibly well with Cabal Therapy and, to extent, Diabolic Intent.

Or to mix the 2 approaches up - run Glittering Wish instead of Living Wish. It can fetch all kinds of fun cards, according to the situation you find yourself in. Planeswalkers, utility creatures (think Gaddock Teeg), finisher like Sigarda, enchantments like Teferi's Moat, whatever floats your boat.

Dryad Arbor is... kinda the point of the deck. You use a fetchland to grab it so that you don't need otherwise dead cards like GSZ to search up an Explorer. Perhaps the deck could use more fetches to that end; I haven't quite nailed down the final manabase yet. Even if I can't fetch it up before going off, you're still pretty fine as long as you plan ahead for that small bit of disruption.

Not sure how exactly the removal suite should go yet; that's still a work in progress. Good call on Path over Swords here; that's not something I'd considered, though I'm not sure how much better it is than maxing out on Deeds and Decays. I hadn't considered Submerge either; I suppose Sigarda could have a wishboard slot as a hedge against those effects, but it might just be better to have a powerful ETB effect like Hornet Queen for locking down the board against those kind of effects. While I enjoy planeswalkers and have a bunch of them in my build, I do want a better way to leverage having 11-12 lands in play; hence Decree.

I'm not sold at all on Glittering Wish; there aren't enough multicolored game-enders in Abzan colors, and it doesn't solve the problem of the wish getting countered (that's what gets countered, not the Eldrazi or whatever).

[Echelon]

You can only cast a creture from the graveyard once per turn.

I know. And doing that seems like value enough when using said sequences.


Reccuring nightmare is strictly better for looping any creature aand doubles as a sac outlet, protects itself, and can be used multiple times turn.

It can only be used at sorcery speed, so it can't really protect itself all that well. Forget to use it before going to your combat phase (or end step, if you cast it in your 2nd main phase), and it's a sitting duck. Besides, it needs a creature on the board to start doing stuff. Karador is fine with sitting there by his lonesome. Seeing a Recurring Nightmare on a creatureless board is just the saddest thing ever. Sure, Karador only lets you cast 1 creature card a turn from your GY, but in the late game that's the kind of stuff that'll let you take over the game. Also, Karador-on-the-board allows you to not give a shit about FoW & friends.

As far as sacrificing stuff goes - I might be a bit biased b/c I run an oddball build with 4 Diabolic Intent and 9 sacrificing outlets in total.



I'm not sold at all on Glittering Wish; there aren't enough multicolored game-enders in Abzan colors, and it doesn't solve the problem of the wish getting countered (that's what gets countered, not the Eldrazi or whatever).

Run more discard! Also, be more patient. As I said, you're trying to play out your deck like a combo deck, so think like one. Plan your line, check your opponents' hand and only go for it if you are 100% sure it is safe to do so. The opportunity to go for it is one you get only once or twice a game, so make sure it's there and when it is, make it count.

[jbone2016]

So....

Ob Nixilis Reignited
3BB
Planeswalker - Ob Nixilis
[+1]: Draw a card. You lose 1 life.
[-3]: Drestroy target creature.
[-8]: Target opponent gets an emblem with "When you draw a card lose 2 life."

This....seems good.

[Barook]

So....

Ob Nixilis Reignited
3BB
Planeswalker - Ob Nixilis
[+1]: Draw a card. You lose 1 life.
[-3]: Drestroy target creature.
[-8]: Target opponent gets an emblem with "When you draw a card lose 2 life."

This....seems good.
http://media.wizards.com/2015/bfz_8asdifk2Sk2cs/en_PitAVDWBFm.png

Ultimate seems less shitty than before.

[sdematt]

Drawing an extra card for one life? Why not just play Arena, or in fact, Sylvan?

Path over Swords in the white build is an obvious choice, and I've talked about this for a long time. This is what I was thinking of trying as of late:


3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Path to Exile
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Sylvan Library

3 Veteran Explorer
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Ulvenwald Tracker

3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
3 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas/Taiga
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Cranial Extraction/Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Tsunami
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist


Tracker might be loose, but clearing out opposing Peezy's and such so you can rumble through seems fine. I think there was an argument of Tsunami over Choke, so I've left Tsunami in to try. If Tracker is definite no bueno, then I'll cut it for the 3rd PTE or Elspeth. Overall though, I just dislike how fetching up basics makes the two matchups that are really popular, Miracles and Omni, very bad. :/

I'd rather not go into 4 colours, but Slaughter Games >>> Cranial. Ugh. Also why I've included more DRS, and just go 3/3.

-Matt

[Echelon]

The tracker is cute, if you can make it stick.

Concerning the Ob Nixilis walker - it does make your opponents' late game Brainstorms suck the big one. But it's so slow. Even Vraska would be a quicker clock (and a more funny one, at that).

[philharmonika]

Drawing an extra card for one life? Why not just play Arena, or in fact, Sylvan?

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Path to Exile
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Sylvan Library

3 Veteran Explorer
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Ulvenwald Tracker

3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
3 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas/Taiga
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Cranial Extraction/Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Tsunami
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist

-Matt

like your list !

but i would play one path more and one zenith less

do u have some play reports of this one?

cheers

[Tom4ik]

IF you were playing with Vraska this new walker is better. The question is still whether a 5 mana value walker is good enough. This is better than arena for a few reasons. One is that a walker doesnt die to 3+ deeds. Not always relevant but still non-trivial. The fact that your CA engine can also tick down to kill creatures is also helpful. The biggest draw I think is that this builds pressure in a few ways (both giving you cards and the ultimate will kill them and quicker than they think at minimum 4 a full turn cycle. Whether these benefits out way a 5 mana price tag i dont know. I doubt it.

Also the art sucks so I am not very inclined to look into this.

sdematt- Is your list made for the general metagame or is this with your specific locale in mind?

[bryanzoll]

Hey everybody, I know I'm usually the silent majority on this thread since everyone plays Junk Fit, but I still believe ScapeFit is the best variant right now. Took a break from legacy to grind out modern, but here is an updated list for anyone that is looking for a good list tuned against the current meta (good matchups against Delver variants and Omnitell both pre and post boarding:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

3 Green Suns Zenith
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift

3 Abrupt Decay

4 Senseis Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deeds

4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
3 Badland
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Verdant Catacomb
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard:
1 Reanimate
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Massacre
1 Pyroclasm
1 Scapeshift
1 Tsunami
3 Slaughter Games
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

[Arianrhod]

Snap reactions to Kiora and Ob Nix:

-) Kiora is disgusting IF Dig Through Time sticks around. Like, seriously, if Dig sticks we could actually end up being the best Dig deck, which would be hilariously ironic to me. If Dig does get banned, then she's a fine 'walker but is likely worse than Kiora 1, unless you find something broken to do with Kiora 2's +1 -- like, you know, untapping Gaia's Cradle (which is unlikely in nic fit, but, you know...).

-) Ob Nix is a very, very strong sideboard option. I don't think he's maindeckable unless Punishing Jund comes back in a big way, but Nic Fit as an archetype has a long history of sideboarding various planeswalkers to give additional angles of attack in grindy matchups, and Ob is basically tailor-made for that plan for us. This is a man who can win a grindy mirror. We've usually opted for combat walkers, not utility walkers, mostly because of Jace -- but Ob can and will race Jace TMS, while drawing us an extra card a turn on top of it.

Other stuff, glancing through:

-) Enemy manland hype. Calling the BG one to have deathtouch, which would actually be worth considering...probably gets dismissed just because coming into play tapped is too sheisty, but I'd at least think about it.

-) Hedron Archive is fringe interesting, but probably more of a MUD / 12post thing.

-) Blight Herder has a ton of value attached to it, but the odds of getting to trigger it are a little unlikely outside of DRS/Ooze + Swords/Path, and even if you can trigger it reliably, I'm not sure it's better than any existing 5-drops...although getting double value from a DRS or an Ooze off the same three creatures is actually kind of adorbs.

-) Oran-Rief Hydra is actually worth keeping an eye on. It has trample, we play a lot of Forests, and it gets out of control -very- quickly. Probably still not better than Primeval.

-) Radiant Flames is a REALLY cool card, and is still not better than Pyroclasm for that role in sideboards and wishboards. Stick with the tried and true over the new and cool.

-) As much as I don't want him to be, Gideon is probably competition with Elspeth in the combat walker category. Elspeth's redbull might still be too worth to ignore, but making a 2/2 instead of a 1/1 is relevant, and +1ing to become an indestructible 5/5 isn't strictly the worst if you're not worried about StP in the matchup (looking at Shardless, Jund, etc here).

-) Tango lands are really cool for people who are getting into Nic Fit from newer formats. We're one of a very small handful of decks (Miracles comes to mind for another) that actually runs enough basics to realistically turn on the Tangos easily and reliably. Scapewish still opts for Stomping Grounds over the R/G Tango, I'm pretty sure. Note that this means that we should all be ready for newer players looking into the deck.

-) Brood Butcher is a cool card for limited, and not for us at all. This does call to mind the question, though -- does Devoid count in all zones? Meaning, Brood Butcher is a 3gb creature with Devoid. Can we Green Sun Zenith it? The wording doesn't really offer any clues -- maybe I'll toss it up on facebook later and tag some judges.

-) Fathom Feeder does not replace Baleful Strix in any world.

-) Bring to Light is capable of some really stupid things. I don't know what they are off the top of my head, but there's no way that card doesn't have the potential for some absurdity.

-) Undergrowth Champion is neat, but doesn't have any evasion or protection, so it loses my interest. Maybe if it had a clause where if it had X counters it gains trample or something, but it doesn't, so.

-) Smothering Abomination is probably the most exciting non-planeswalker at this point. Dying to Bolt makes him less attractive, but he has a very powerful effect and he's a 4-power flyer for 4, which is not common. It would be fairly easy to turn him into at least a Howling Mine through the use of bloodghast or something similar, and the potential exists to go deeper (Ghave exists and has seen play in the past here). I don't have any interest in brewing the deck for it, but I would not be in the least surprised if there's a variant starring that guy somewhere.

[Tom4ik]

Thoughts on some of the cards-
- The new man land is worse than tar pit. If you do not play tar pit I am not sure if this is really any better. IF I wanted a third man land this would be over a 3rd tar pit and before anything else but 4 mana activation is a lot. It does take down jace when they do not have creatures but stp or bolt in hand where tar pit cannot but I think the 4th mana to activate is bigger than ppl will think. That said, I do like it but I am not sure nic fit would be the best shell. A bug landstill type deck might be better. The bg one will almost certainly have deathouch and unless the activation cost is very small probably not worth playing. We have a wide range of man lands right now, 3/3 trample for 2, 3/4 reach, 3/3grow on attack, 3/2 unblockable and none of these see much play aside from occasional tar pit use in bug and sometimes treetop in GB decks with prime. Landstill decks now have a plethora of options though...

- The hydra is just worse than prime time. The value from prime time is immediate, tutor effect is huge in the Fit decks that play him essentially making him a free 6/6 trample. When I played it in punishing fire version the 2 lands were a bigger deal than the body even though the body killed plenty of ppl.

- Tango lands (is that really what we came up with as a community? lol) are not playable. shocks are duals 5+ already and very few decks need that many. Scape is the only one that needs that many mountain types and they only play 1 I believe.

- Bring to light is very interesting. I am not sure what to do with this but I am going to brew with it in modern. I just do not think its good enough in legacy. I play esper mentor in modern as I just think 4c gifts is not good enough but bring to light seems sweet so maybe I will try smth with it.

- Kiora is certainly interesting. She is 4 mana which is great as few 5 mana walkers ever really see play even in our decks its basically garruk only. The tick down is amazing. Digging 4 cards is huge. I would imagine if we want her we would play either (or both) witness or snap in some amounts so that taking one of those give us access to the spells we mill over like deed, top, brainstorm, decay, etc. The tick up seems great with a mana dork actually. Like untaping DRS and land to have decay up seems like a decent protection in a build with her. Idk, I am hesitant to write her off as digging 4 cards down is so powerful but the land plus dude only aspect sucks. I would start with 4-5 snaps/witness and also a stronghold in the deck. She pitches to force which isnt irrelevant for me at least.

[Ralf]

Hey everybody, I know I'm usually the silent majority on this thread since everyone plays Junk Fit, but I still believe ScapeFit is the best variant right now. Took a break from legacy to grind out modern, but here is an updated list for anyone that is looking for a good list tuned against the current meta (good matchups against Delver variants and Omnitell both pre and post boarding:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

3 Green Suns Zenith
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift

3 Abrupt Decay

4 Senseis Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deeds

4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
3 Badland
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Verdant Catacomb
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard:
1 Reanimate
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Massacre
1 Pyroclasm
1 Scapeshift
1 Tsunami
3 Slaughter Games
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

Thank you Bryan !

Don't you think that abrupt decay is overlapping with Deed ?
I would easily replace them with Sudden Shock, since Tarmo/CB are usually not a real problem for the deck.

Sudden shock would drastically improve a few other MU (poison for example) while still answering, for good, to a flipped delver.
Not to mention that Split second can also be rather nice against pyromancer/mentor or even an active Mom.
At last, the ability to, at least, go to the Dome could sometimes make a difference.

What do you think ? Do I miss anything relevant ?

Another question: I see you have elected to play only 23 lands and 4 tops. Can you give us some tips about the way you are usually keeping an opening hand?
I.E: was the 4th top a mean to hedge against such a choice ?

Happy to discuss !

[bryanzoll]

Hey Ralf!

Here are some responses to your questions:

On Sudden Shock vs Abrupt Decay: Decay handles so many things other than just creatures that it is still very much needed in the deck (like counterbalance). Is there overlap with Deeds? Absolutely, however the difference is that abrupt decay on a 2CMC item (like a 3/4 goyf) is 2 mana, while a Deeds for 2 requires 5 mana. This deck wants to prolong a game, the longer the game goes, the better chances of it winning. Deeds is great because it lets you wipe a board, but abrupt decay help you out tremendously in the early game.

23 lands and 4 SDT: This deck doesn't run blue, so we don't have access to brainstorms, ponders, etc. Drawing an SDT is pretty important and I generally have a hard time winning if I don't land one within the first few turns. 23 lands, never had an issue with mana screw.

Opening Hands: In an ideal world, your opening hand is going to be: Cabal Therapy, Explorer, Thoughtseize, SDT, 2 lands, GSZ, Burning Wish. This hand should play: T1: Thoughtseize, T2: Cabal Therapy, Explorer, Flashback Therapy, SDT, filter next draw, T3: Start playing dense threats.

Ideally, I want a hand with some early disruption, accerlation, and some type of threat. I would keep a hand of a discard, an early ramp (wood elves, explorer, or sakura tribe elder), abrupt decay, a couple of lands, SDT. That is usually pre-board not knowing what my opponent is on. Obviously post-board its going to vary.



Thank you Bryan !

Don't you think that abrupt decay is overlapping with Deed ?
I would easily replace them with Sudden Shock, since Tarmo/CB are usually not a real problem for the deck.

Sudden shock would drastically improve a few other MU (poison for example) while still answering, for good, to a flipped delver.
Not to mention that Split second can also be rather nice against pyromancer/mentor or even an active Mom.
At last, the ability to, at least, go to the Dome could sometimes make a difference.

What do you think ? Do I miss anything relevant ?

Another question: I see you have elected to play only 23 lands and 4 tops. Can you give us some tips about the way you are usually keeping an opening hand?
I.E: was the 4th top a mean to hedge against such a choice ?

Happy to discuss !

[Dadadot]

Hey, I'm quite new to magic and am currently building my first deck (I guess you can call it Junkpod Fit). I would appreciate suggestions very much. If you got questions I will gladly answer them.

Lands (22/23):
Dryad Arbor
Phyrexian Tower
Karakas
Volrath's Stronghold
Wasteland

3xForest
2xPlains
Savannah
Scrubland
2Swamp
4xVerdant Catacombs
4xWindswept Heath

Creatures (20/19):
4xVeteran Explorer
Deathrite Shaman

Scavenging Ooze
2xStrangleroot Geist

Bone Shredder
2xEternal Witness
Reclamation Sage
Kitchen Finks

Restoration Angel
2xSiege Rhino

Acidic Slime
Sigarda, Host of Herons

Sun Titan

Other Stuff:
2xAbrupt Decay
3xBirthing Pod
4xCabal Therapy
2xDiabolic Intent
2xGreen Sun's Zenith
3xPernicious Deed
Recurring Nightmare
Sensei's Divining Top



Sideboard sth. like this:
Pernicious Deed
Murderous Redcap
Maelstrom Pulse
2xThoughtseize
Gaddock Teeg
2xEthersworn Canonist
Orzhov Pontiff
Surgical Extraction
2xExtirpate
Abrupt Decay
2xSwords to Plowshares

[Tom4ik]

I went 3-1 at my weekly. List is basically the same. I have Grave titan and Thrun in the main. I never played nor wanted titan so i think that will not be back. I did like having a thrun main though.
I beat grixis control round 1. Won in 2 games mostly due to early therapies backed by PWs. Deed was house.
Rd2 I beat black DnT (TS, Bobs and scullers were the splash).
Rd3 I was on camera at mead hall against aluren and totally fucked up game 3. Had him at 1 life, jace in play and just made a couple decisions that were pretty bad so I actually lost that somehow......uhhhhhhh the salt is real.
Rd4 I beat storm.

[Ralf]

Hey, I'm quite new to magic and am currently building my first deck (I guess you can call it Junkpod Fit). I would appreciate suggestions very much. If you got questions I will gladly answer them.

Lands (22/23):
Dryad Arbor
Phyrexian Tower
Karakas
Volrath's Stronghold
Wasteland

3xForest
2xPlains
Savannah
Scrubland
2Swamp
4xVerdant Catacombs
4xWindswept Heath

Creatures (20/19):
4xVeteran Explorer
Deathrite Shaman

Scavenging Ooze
2xStrangleroot Geist

Bone Shredder
2xEternal Witness
Reclamation Sage
Kitchen Finks

Restoration Angel
2xSiege Rhino

Acidic Slime
Sigarda, Host of Herons

Sun Titan

Other Stuff:
2xAbrupt Decay
3xBirthing Pod
4xCabal Therapy
2xDiabolic Intent
2xGreen Sun's Zenith
3xPernicious Deed
Recurring Nightmare
Sensei's Divining Top



Sideboard sth. like this:
Pernicious Deed
Murderous Redcap
Maelstrom Pulse
2xThoughtseize
Gaddock Teeg
2xEthersworn Canonist
Orzhov Pontiff
Surgical Extraction
2xExtirpate
Abrupt Decay
2xSwords to Plowshares

Welcome!

Nice list.
I would suggest a few changes:

- Sigarda is nice & all but in such a list I would rather not play her. She shines in list with equipments / or when she is your top of the curve. She has nothing to bring to the table in yours (except that she is one of the best creature ever). Thragtusk will fit the bill, just plain better.

- Bone shredder should be a MD Orzhov Pontiff, given the current metagame. Not sure I would put Bone in the side...

- Thrun should be in your list. Having an uncounterable (which Sigarda is not)/hexproof guy to feed your pod chain is a must.

- Double up on your 6-CMC creature, just because sometimes you have your 6 drop in your hand. Sun Titan + Grave Titan, for example.

- I like "persist" or "undying" at every thresh you reach. Murderous Redcap @CMC 4 is really really nice. You could live with just 1 Strangleroot Geist, I guess. Furthermore, those abilities are completely broken with Restoration Angel.

- If you like playing with recurring nightmare, deed, etc... A one-of "Academy Rector" could also be a very nice addition (including sideboard strategy as well with powerful enchantment)

Hope this will give you food for thoughts.

[Arianrhod]

Sidisi is the more glaring exclusion -- Sidisi grabbing Nightmare in a Pod list is very, very strong.

I'll defend Sigarda as much as Ralf condemns it, although some of that is probably because I still have a lot of random BGx midrange Liliana decks around my area. I would at least recommend sideboarding her, and if Dig Through Time gets the axe, she immediately goes maindeck again.

The 2nd Intent is redundant. You could cut that to simply add the Sidisi, if you wish -- Sidisi does what Intent does, but is poddable and has a very respectable body.

I would also cut the Volrath's Stronghold, because you already have a lot of utility lands and colorless sources. Are you not running any Bayous?

I suppose here I should take a break and ask if you're running budget or not. I didn't think of it when I saw the 1-of Savannah and Scrublands, because those are the less important duals, but no Bayous is kind of a red flag since that's the most important land for any Nic Fit.

Regardless of budgetary concerns, though, I would still 100% recommend a Sidisi over a Diabolic Intent.

6 5 4 4 3 2 is my usual Pod curve, by the way. I tend to not run as many spells and try to run more creatures with spell effects, to increase the consistency of Pod while also strengthening the random dudes plan that all Pod decks invariably end up on at some point in their lives.

[Dadadot]

@Tom4ik: I'm currently trying out Sun Titan (I really don't know if I like him or not) but as somebody suggested below I will probably put another 6 drop in there (likely Grave Titan). Thanks for your reply!

@Ralf: I partly agree with your opinion on Sigarda, still she is crazy strong even without equipments, also i can get her with Zenith. But I think i will put Thrun back in there somehow. Thragtusk got lost somehow on the way building this deck but i agree that it is a very strong addition. I think i will put Pontiff MD for Bone Shredder, but i think i will keep him SB as an additional creature removal.
I will think about the rest of you suggestions. But and post an updated list in the near future. Than you too for your reply!

@Arianrhod: The bayou is in there, still i will only run 3 duals and a karakas in the beginning. Partly because of budget reasons party bc wasteland. I'm not completly sold on sidsi considering i don't have any blue mana source (apart from drs) and she could be a dead draw if i can't zenith or pod her.
The reason i have two intents is, i can run maybe (thinking about it) only 2 pods and one senseis and stiff have effectively 4 pods and 3 senseis (if that makes any sense). Also i can fetch other possible answers i need with it. It never felt weak really. Thanks for your reply!


btw. what do you all think about Ruinous Path from BFZ as a sideboard answer for planeswalkers? (currently my strangeroot geist servers this kind of purpose)

[Arianrhod]

@Tom4ik: I'm currently trying out Sun Titan (I really don't know if I like him or not) but as somebody suggested below I will probably put another 6 drop in there (likely Grave Titan). Thanks for your reply!

@Ralf: I partly agree with your opinion on Sigarda, still she is crazy strong even without equipments, also i can get her with Zenith. But I think i will put Thrun back in there somehow. Thragtusk got lost somehow on the way building this deck but i agree that it is a very strong addition. I think i will put Pontiff MD for Bone Shredder, but i think i will keep him SB as an additional creature removal.
I will think about the rest of you suggestions. But and post an updated list in the near future. Than you too for your reply!

@Arianrhod: The bayou is in there, still i will only run 3 duals and a karakas in the beginning. Partly because of budget reasons party bc wasteland. I'm not completly sold on sidsi considering i don't have any blue mana source (apart from drs) and she could be a dead draw if i can't zenith or pod her.
The reason i have two intents is, i can run maybe (thinking about it) only 2 pods and one senseis and stiff have effectively 4 pods and 3 senseis (if that makes any sense). Also i can fetch other possible answers i need with it. It never felt weak really. Thanks for your reply!


btw. what do you all think about Ruinous Path from BFZ as a sideboard answer for planeswalkers? (currently my strangeroot geist servers this kind of purpose)

Sidisi, Undead Vizier

You're thinking of the wrong Sidisi.

[Firepaw3]

Went 3-0-1 at redcaps weekly with reanimator-fit
2-0 omni
2-1 jeskai stoneblade
2-0 Jund
ID with punishing maverick
list:
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Aetherling
1 Elesh Norn
1 Griselbrand

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Reanimate
2 Show and Tell
1 Life from the Loam
1 Deep Analysis
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Brainstorm
4 Entomb

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island

//sb
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ravens Crime
2 Krosan Grip
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Flusterstorm
2 Duress
1 Glen Elendra Archmage

Deck surpassed my expectations and was a ton of fun to pilot, not too sold on the true name back up plan, but cant think of anything better so if anyone has suggestions let me know
elesh was great in the maindeck and was more relevant then iona would have been, having 8 therapies maindeck with entomb make the combo matchup alot easier g1

[Dadadot]

Ah, that makes a lot more sense. Still it seems kinda slow for the purpose i am using the intents for. Could you give me an example or two for how i could use her. I am still very new to magic and i don't see all the possibilities. Thanks in advance.

[Tom4ik]

Sorry, I meant my list was roughly the same I have been playing. Its a bug control variant with the Vet/Therapy engine. Not the junk pod version.

[maharis]

http://media.wizards.com/2015/bfz_8asdifk2Sk2cs/en_TclURjhCMu.png

Pretty interesting curve topper. Get back something important, death effect if you have a loose Therapy and need something else more important than a 5/4.

Can't be looped but I don't think that's bad. Whether it's better than a Titan... remains to be seen.

[Ralf]

Deck surpassed my expectations and was a ton of fun to pilot, not too sold on the true name back up plan, but cant think of anything better so if anyone has suggestions let me know
elesh was great in the maindeck and was more relevant then iona would have been, having 8 therapies maindeck with entomb make the combo matchup alot easier g1

I guess it is up to what you are trying to do.
You could easily replace the graveyard package with some natural order (progenitus to name it) if you want to stay on the dark (combo) side.
If not, I cannot see anything stronger than TNN. The main issue being that once you become popular, opponents will start putting their REB postboard.

[uncletiggy]

You could always side into a helm/leyline kill not sure how bad that would muck up the board and which matches youd loose ground in but it could help versus some faster combo decks.

[Star|Scream]

http://media.wizards.com/2015/bfz_8asdifk2Sk2cs/en_TclURjhCMu.png

Pretty interesting curve topper. Get back something important, death effect if you have a loose Therapy and need something else more important than a 5/4.

Can't be looped but I don't think that's bad. Whether it's better than a Titan... remains to be seen.

It's a 5/4 for 4GG. Your opponents are playing 5/5s for B

What are you going to get back? An explorer? Sun Titan already gets deeds back, and they go directly to the battlefield.

[maharis]

Against 5/5 for B you get whatever, then trade with it and get something else. Deed isn't helping you there anyway. Those games are probably grindy so kill your guy regrow 2 isn't bad.

There's also blowout opportunity in combo games that go long like grab force, therapy you, grab blue card.

I think this is a possible card in pod builds depending on what else you have going on. This also gets rhino, glen elendra, 4cc walkers, and non-permanents that sun titan doesn't.

Btw death&exile is a may trigger so you can loop these with recurring nightmare and draw your GY.

[Tom4ik]

Very few 6 drops will actually change much with this deck. Any 6 drop you play will be powerful so if you like this card play it. I personally would not as I think its worse than other options but to each their own.

[pettdan]

@Pettdan: As stupid as it sounds, but between Top, Rector and Leap I want to see a Recycle in the list, could make Mentor even more brutal ;)

Thanks for the suggestion, Philipp, and sorry for the late response! Recycle seems powerful but clunky, I was thinking of trying to remove some clunky cards (Rector, Nightmare and possibly the Glen Elendras but they fit so well) for cheap removal to help games go longer.

The list didn't work out that well, but I'll play some more games because it seems interesting and I want to see if Evolutionary Leap can do broken things. I didn't draw a single Leap in the four games I played, so I don't know how good or bad it is yet. What I would very much want the deck to do is the following. This is the game plan, I'm aware that the games may not play out like this but I need to have a vision for what the deck is trying to do and why it should have Evolutionary Leap in it.

- Vs combo (these are the bad matchups, of course), turn 1-2 Thoughtseize and/or Cabal Therapy to slow them down. Deathrite or GSZ for Arbor to accelerate. Then turn 3 [or more likely turn 4] Evolutionary Leap ramping 1-2 Veteran Explorers and allowing you to put Glen Elendra into play the same turn. Go ahead combo player, enjoy your basics! Sideboarding out Stoneforges and a Mentor should help this plan. Keep one Mentor in as a quick finisher. Board in extra Thoughtseizes, Surgicals and a Glen Elendra.

- Vs fair decks, turn 1-2 Deathrite/StP/Thoughtseize/Therapy/Abrupt Decay slowing them down. Turn 3-4 play the Leap and chain an explorer or two, GSZ for Explorer to start with if needed or fetch for Arbor, chain into a Mystic, play it and get Batterskull. When the opponent tries to kill Stoneforge it is sacrificed chaining into a Mentor. Notice that you spent zero card resources doing this, actually ending up with the same amount of cards in hand and a permanent in play (Leap) plus probably a few extra basics for both players. Turn 4 sees you playing the Mentor and producing multiple monk tokens with two SDT's or instead you play the Batterskull. And then you play a second creatures, starting a new leap chain. A creature with persist offers pretty good card advantage next to a Leap.

I did find one interesting combination that may be worth considering next to Evolutionary Leap. Too cute perhaps but still. It's Skaab Ruinator. Once you get going with Evolutionary Leap you should be able to put a couple of creatures into your graveyard. And when you do, you can play the Ruinator. If the opponent tries to StP it, then you sacrifice it with the Leap, replaying it next turn probably and drawing a card creating card advantage in the process. If the opponent decays it, same story. They'll have to decay the Leap instead, which leaves you with the Ruinator in play. It's probably not good enough, but I could see myself trying it as a one of in a BUG Leap Fit list.

[InWaking]

Good morning all!
So I am relatively new to legacy, and am super new to Nic Fit, I've been playing Magic on and off forever:Ice Age and had just recently gotten into Legacy due to my qualifications to a few SCG invitationals. (Both of which I played MUD, which I would also suggest as a fun and powerful deck, only problem is that it doesn't really segway into any other Legacy decks) but I wanted to write this short essay for people getting into legacy. I have been into EDH for a few years on MODO and realized thanks to my EDH collection building Nic Fit is a great budget deck to get into Legacy online.
I am a standard player mostly but the recent state of standard had left me wanting more and thanks to Magic Onlines wacky market it's cheaper to play Legacy then it is to get into Modern. Pernicious Deed is at a low low cost of 8.5 tix, Deathrite Shaman, Veteran Explorer, and Green Sun's Zenith are all super cheap Titans are not expensive and the deck plays tons of basics, though if you're like me you may have one of each dual land for EDH (though I have more than that) and a few fetchs and don't mind not playing blue then Nic Fit is a relatively easy deck to build on a low budget, a good midrange style deck for people who like to do powerful things that make their opponents wonder how they're losing to a Titan in Legacy. (apparently if you like blue there's a fit for you too!)

The original primer mentions the deck takes some getting used to and that's true in a sense, I've been on the deck for about a week and my affinity for big midrange decks made me feel right at home with it. Nic Fit feels kinda like a standard deck but the cards are so powerful it can stand up to noncombo decks very well, I've had great success vs Delver decks and other midrange decks; I have also been destroyed by omni-show, and Belcher. After tinkering with the board and messing around with my base deck and doing 1v1 to relative success today I will be playing in my first Legacy daily (provided it fires) with my own brand of Abzan Nic Fit and I'm pretty excited about it.

I want to write a tournament report for it but it will only be three rounds so I am sure it'll be a bit less then enthralling, but to start I will leave you with the list I had entered into the event. It is still a work in progress but this forum has certainly helped me come a long way with it as I started the list without the forum and playing cards like lingering souls, Satyr Wayfinder the not so budget friendly Liliana of the veil and a whole three Recurring Nightmares though one technology I naturally started with and am sticking with for now is the 2 maindeck Carpet of Flowers, I actually think it's an awesome way to ramp into my sweet planeswalkers and the deck is naturally pretty decent against decks that don't play blue.

1 Recurring Nightmare
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
2 Bayou
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Windswept Heath
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Plains
3 Marsh Flats
1 Sylvan Library
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Path to Exile
1 Grave Titan
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sun Titan
2 Academy Rector
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Path to Exile
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Karn Liberated
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Sideboard
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Choke
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Pithing Needle
1 Leyline of Sanctity

Also sorry I have no idea how to do that whole linking thing so you can hover over cards to see what they are I am not only new to legacy but this is my second or third post ever on forums.

[InWaking]

R1 Unkoman
M1
M2 Keep a no land hand with double Veteran, Ooze, Top, Rector. Thoughtseize right off the bat.
miss four drop steps in a row only to on the fifth draw step draw a non green source, I guess I deserve this. I therapy only to be met by spell pierce.
Turn 6 I cast veteran explorer after drawing a fetch and gathering a bayou.
he let's explorer resolve but force of wills Therapy. Best outcome I could have asked for. He plays True-name and batterskull feels pretty awful
The game went on much longer than it ever should have.

g2 kept another sketch hand one land, with a Veteran. this match has made me feel like the deck needs more than 22 lands but up until this match I've had no problems

After playing the tightest three games of my life I emerged victorious against Esper blade. although at one point in g3 I had miss tracked the cards in his hand and Therapy him calling Force when he had a truename in hand that I knew about. all three games came down to Veteran Explorer and Pernicious Deed being ridiculous.

R2 Oriver001
UW Mystic blade deck
Lost in two, the match felt pretty bad, I am not entirely sure what I was supposed to do here, but I've learned two polar things, Veteran is terrible vs Swords to plowshares, and it happens to be pretty decent at pressuring Jace TMS.
I couldn't get out from under the card advantage his deck was providing him. I could probably have taken a game but like I said I am still new to the deck, I suppose I would need to test against it more. G1 the maindeck blossoms was pretty decent but eventually I had to use deed to clear the board causing me to stumble on mana.
Thrun and my own equipment would have probably been very benificial in this matchup.

R3 Nemureke
I keep an awkward hand of Catacombs, Savannah, Plains, Maelstrom Pulse, Grave Titan, Decay, Siege Rhino.
He t1 ritual into top hymn and it hits my pulse and savannah it did not feel good for sure. mid game starts to feel terrible as I stand on three lands and all 4+drops in hand. I never draw past a third land, He swords my Veteran and I die.

g2 I keep a 2 therapy Veteran hand, getting rid of his three spells leaving him with only lands.

Not gonna lie G3 my girl made me lunch and I just stopped paying attention and made like 18 misplays.
I am running short on time but that's it I went 1-2 so I could have certainly done better, I could use any help provided.

[Ralf]

Hello,

I played a tournament (30 players) saturday with Rea Fit until semi finals.


Round 1: Mono Green Aggro Won 2/1

Lost the toss

G1: Not much to say here. I kept a heavy ramp hand (2 explorers) without any relevant business spell hoping to find some. Veteran died twice, I drew perni to take care of a really powerful board and got to resolve a Griselbrand against a creature deck. Easy win.

G2: Dryad Militant T1 followed by a T2 Root Maze. I'm stuck with 2 fetchs and we were ready for G3.

G3: Veteran into deed, another Deed and a Grave Titan to close another easy game.


Round 2: Dredge Won 2/1

Lost the toss

G1: My oppo led with Coliseum. Yeah Dredge -> Oops I got to entomb + reanimate Elesh before getting hit by Cabal Therapy -> G2

G2: Black leyline T0 and I couldn't find any solutions (be it krosan or pulse) -> G3

G3: Black leyline T0 again (without any mulligan) but I have a T3 grip into a T4 entomb + reanimate. Elesh for the win !


Round 3: 4 color Delver Won (2/1)

Lost the toss

G1: Delver was ready to go crazy but a S&T into Thragtusk followed by 2 reanimate on the ever dying Thragtusk made my oppo scoop.

G2: Triple Delver put me in a hard spot. Decayed 1 and managed to land a Grave Titan via a successful S&T. Few miscalculations later (because I didn't attack once with Titan) and a missed trigger on zombie tokens, we headed towards G3.

G3: I'm stuck on 1 land + 3 veteran. My oppo went full tap T2 for double delver (T1 Delver, T2 Ponder + Delver) seeing that I'm stuck on 1 land. T3, I drew fetch -> entomb therapy. T4 I have no other choice than S&T into Titan if not I'm dead. It resolved and I was able to race the double delvers.


Round 4: Omni Won (2/1)

Won the toss

G1: Veteran followed by CT into BS -> hit 2 + flashback hitting 2 S&T. Wow valueeeeeee. I'm able to close the deal right after his first DTT. Phewwww.

G2: I got over confident when my oppo went S&T putting Omni and me Iona but he had a heavy board with Pyro + 7 tokens. Here again, I didn't see that attacking with Iona could give me the win in 2 turns. I chose to play it safe leaving Iona as a blocker. Eventually he drew Emmy like a champ the turn before my lethal strike.

G3: Nasty hand with 2 TS + 2 entomb + 1 reanimate. I chose to go for a T3 entomb + reanimate on Iona after ripping his hands. She got me there !


Round 5: Dunno Draw

We chose to lock the top 8 as we were both at 4/0.
It happened that I was first at the tie breakers !


Quarter Finals: Dredge Won 2/1

I got to start against the same player as G2.

G1: T2 Elesh for a quick scoop

G2: Black leyline T0 (AGAIN !!!! FFS) into dredge half my deck on T1 -> fast scoop

G3: Black leyline T0 (insane probabilities here as he always had T0 black leyline in every G2 & G3 without mulligans). At one point, I managed to destroy the leyline and entombed an Elesh but I'm facing a 15/15 GGT. I'm completely out but a BS revealed = reanimate, snapcaster, reanimate (being at 15 lifes). Eventually, I chumped block several turns (7 or 8) and decked him. DECKED HIM !!! Hell yeah, unbelievable.

Semi Final: D&T Lost 2/0

G1: I reanimated Grisel T2 and drew 7 cards right away (because my opponent's first land was a plain). He had to have a karakas in hand. We traded blow for blow until a point where my board was:
- 1 Baleful strix
- 1 liliana
- 1 Veteran
- 1 Grave titan + 6 tokens

He is dead on my next turn but I'm dead on his because he has just landed another flyer. He has no cards in hand. I waste his karakas and S&T into Grisel. So basically, if he draws another karakas, I'm dead. Topdeck. Karakas...

G2: I kept somewhat a shaky hand that could become great to very great (2 island 2 brainstorm and a bunch of green spells). Eventually, the 2 BS bricked hard and I was about to come back in the game the turn after he had lethal on board. Too bad.

Here is the list I used:

1 Misty Rainforest
1 Tropical Island
1 Wasteland
2 Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
3 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Grave Titan
1 Griselbrand
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Ætherling
2 Thragtusk
3 Baleful Strix
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Brainstorm
4 Entomb
1 Careful Study
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Show and Tell
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Reanimate

SB: 1 Raven's Crime
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 4 True-Name Nemesis

[tilzinger]

Something new to help out with the pesky 12 Posts decks.

http://mythicspoiler.com/bfz/cards/crumbletodust.jpg

[Tom4ik]

I am getting closer and closer to wanting to throw a red source into my BUG deck. Between Slaughter games and now anti-post tech (which is surprisingly relevant in my meta all of a sudden...) I am getting there.

@inwaking - card links are [ cards ] with no spaces and then after the list [ /cards ] no spaces.

[Arianrhod]

Definitely a relevant one. The RRR cost in Scapewish was always rough (because of Burning Wish). 3R is a much more palatable cost, and not being Blue Blast-able is a cherry on top.

[tilzinger]

I am getting closer and closer to wanting to throw a red source into my BUG deck. Between Slaughter games and now anti-post tech (which is surprisingly relevant in my meta all of a sudden...) I am getting there.

@inwaking - card links are [ cards ] with no spaces and then after the list [ /cards ] no spaces.

Yep, I don't have a red dual land, so I'm hoping a single Cinder Glade or Smoldering Marsh will have to do. But yeah, I've wanted Slaughter Games in my Junk SB for awhile, this new card gives me even more of a reason to splash a red. I'm testing out Gitaxian Probe with no blue sources since I can offset the life loss with Rhino and/or Tusk. This would put me on a 5 color "Junk" deck :P

[Tom4ik]

When I played the punishing fire version of this deck I ran 4 probes without a single blue source. I play probe in my bug deck now and pay mana for it very rarely so I think you are fine. Especially with multiple rhinos. I approve of probe in most nic fit decks. We have limited interaction in the first few turns and maximizing that is important. That said it does take up space which better cards could fill so YMMV.

[Jain_Mor]

@Inwaking, if you want to increase your chances of getting feedback, organise your list.

Group the cards by their function (creatures, interaction spells, card advantage/tutoring, lands) or at the minimum put them in a cost sorted order.

[InWaking]

@Inwaking, if you want to increase your chances of getting feedback, organise your list.

Group the cards by their function (creatures, interaction spells, card advantage/tutoring, lands) or at the minimum put them in a cost sorted order.

Yeah I just got the text from my MODO exported decklist. I appreciate that heads up though, I will be more cautious next time, I was just kinda in a hurry and didn't realize what a wreck I was. =) thank you.
This is my most recent take on the deck but all this Gitaxian Probe talk makes me want to play that as well.

2 Path to Exile
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Sylvan Library
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Eternal Witness
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Academy Rector
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
2 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Sun Titan
1 Grave Titan
1 Karn Liberated
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Choke
3 Krosan Grip
1 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Leyline of the Void

I really wanted to play cards like Ugin, the spirit Dragon and Karn Liberated to go way over the top but after more testing I kind of just want to build a Stoneforge Mystic list with Batterskull, Sword of Fire and Ice, and Umezawa's Jitte Sigarda, Host of Herons and Gitaxian Probes.

[Tom4ik]

That list is entirely too top heavy. 11 cards with a casting cost of 4 or more is too much. You will die with those cards in hand way way too often.

[InWaking]

That list is entirely too top heavy. 11 cards with a casting cost of 4 or more is too much. You will die with those cards in hand way way too often.

I do agree it seems like a lot, and it probably is but I've very rarely died with a bunch of cards in hand, usually I have an empty to two card hand at the end of every game.

[Tom4ik]

I have no idea what you are facing i guess... I would add more tops before I add more 5/6 drops. I run 2 cards more than 4 mana (fow not withstanding) and I already hate seeing them in my opener AND the deck has brainstorm in it.

Edit- oops...I forgot DTT counts as over 4 mana.... I run 3 of those too.

[Echelon]

@InWaking: I'd at least take out the Karn and switch it with a Diabolic Intent. Between Veteran Explorer and Academy Rector you have enough stuff you want to feed it, and (when it resolves) it'll get you whatever you need at that specific moment. Anything from another basic so you can hardcast whatever next turn to Ugin.

As a side note - without ways of cheating Ugin into play I'd try to refrain from running anything that costs over 6 mana. Sure, when you resolve Ugin you'll most likely win the game, but you just won't get to resolve it all that often. A Grave Titan on the other hand... That'll take the game in a turn or 2 as well and'll leave you with a nice board presence if it bites the dust.

[Arianrhod]

http://media.wizards.com/2015/bfz_8asdifk2Sk2cs/en_TcJSPnETZH.png

This thing is perilously close to being good enough. At the end of the day, I think that the fact that it triggers off of an optional decision (choosing to play a land for turn) makes it not good enough -- but something in this vein could very easily upset Consecrated Sphinx on its throne in the future. Being Devoid is actually a large upgrade because of the immunity to Pyroblast. Unfortunately, your opponent can just be like, "okay, I'm not playing any more lands now." The fact that they printed this card for standard, though, gives me hope that we might get something spicy with Devoid in the next set.

[Tom4ik]

Arianrhod, I look at devoid on a big thing as a downside. Yes it cannot be Reb/pyro'd but it also cannot be pitched to Fow which is not a small thing. Blasts are already at a premium against most bug fit decks (i would assume?) so that part doesnt really make a big difference to me.

The trigger is good but by the time we are casting this most people will just choose to play around it. The fact that sphinx doesnt give them the option, at least as far as draw steps, is better imo.

[Arianrhod]

Arianrhod, I look at devoid on a big thing as a downside. Yes it cannot be Reb/pyro'd but it also cannot be pitched to Fow which is not a small thing. Blasts are already at a premium against most bug fit decks (i would assume?) so that part doesnt really make a big difference to me.

The trigger is good but by the time we are casting this most people will just choose to play around it. The fact that sphinx doesnt give them the option, at least as far as draw steps, is better imo.

Yeah, this isn't replacing Sphinx at all. I was more trying to head off people who thought it would while also commenting on Devoid.

Not pitching to FoW is valid, I suppose. Probably more a playstyle thing than anything -- I tend to prefer bombs to not be Pryoblast-able because I don't like trading 6 mana for 1, whereas there's always a bunch of blue cards floating around for FoW anyway (and Nic Fit, by design, is actually a good FoW deck since the extra lands from Veteran can turn it into a 1-for-1 much quicker than other decks can).

I also tend to try to avoid pitching/discarding/etc bombs when at all possible because I'm very aware of the grinding / time-consuming nature of Nic Fit as an archetype -- I've probably both lost and won games because of that mentality, so somewhere in the middle is probably correct.

[Tom4ik]

I absolutely agree with pitching bombs to fow not being great but having the option (in smth like a storm matchup for example) is something to consider. I look at pyro or reb the same as bolt or stp. One mana answers to things almost always being more than 1 mana. BUT if they do not have or cannot resolve that spell we are fine. I will pitch probe or strix or snap everytime over something like Jace or dig.

As for the playstyle thing. That is for sure true of the nic fit decks in general. some people prefer to spam bombs over and over and eventually something does, I think I play the deck on the other end of the spectrum which is super controlling with a deck filled with 2 for 1's. I think perspectives force people to justify their card choices to people of the other persuasion and that is only a good thing.

[slikwilly]

Nice work JBone:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/31574_Daily-Digest-Siege-Rhino-Is-A-Nice-Fit-In-Legacy.html

You gonna be in Milwaukee this weekend?

[jbone2016]

Indeed, I will.

[InWaking]

@Jbone I really like the list and I find the best part of it to be the sideboard, may I ask what the Humility is for. I try not to sound like a moron but I'd like to know if it is for something very specific or if it's meant for a broad spectrum of decks or whatever? The sideboard in general seems pretty epic, any chance you could give us a SB breakdown guide like thing?

[sdematt]

Junk Nic Fit "featured" on SCG. Jbone gets some love since he plays online, Sdematt doesn't. Sad :/

-Matt

[uncletiggy]

@inwalking Sneak and show was the show and tell deck of choice at the end of 2014 and its likely an out that synergiezes well with equipment while being relevant against other decks in the field.

[jbone2016]

Whelp. Disappointed with a 3-4 finish (only 120 ppl). Brief summary since I am on the road currently. Beat dredge. Lost gu post. Lost to renanimator. Beat oops all spells. Beat burn. Lost to d & t. Lost to grixis omnitell.

[Arianrhod]

Whelp. Disappointed with a 3-4 finish (only 120 ppl). Brief summary since I am on the road currently. Beat dredge. Lost gu post. Lost to renanimator. Beat oops all spells. Beat burn. Lost to d & t. Lost to grixis omnitell.

Doesn't sound like a good meta.

Disappointed to hear about the attendance. I think we're finally reaching a point where the format is starting to wane in popularity due to the prolonged amount of time WotC has allowed Dig to warp the metagame.

[maharis]

There were also two BUG Pod decks with Veteran Explorer in the top 16, including one with Minister of Pain.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=91757

[sdematt]

Total attendance?

[Arianrhod]

Jbone just said 120, Matt.

Good to see Gleicher top 8 again. He definitely has a pedigree with Bug Pod. I'm very surprised to see no Sidisi/Vizier in either list to grab the Nightmare, but I guess they valued their other bullets more.

The white splash (Godless Shrine, lol) for Meddling Mage is adorable in Alex's list. I'm not sure it's better than the red, but I guess in a pod variant you could at least make the argument.

[GtF]

Jbone just said 120, Matt.

Good to see Gleicher top 8 again. He definitely has a pedigree with Bug Pod. I'm very surprised to see no Sidisi/Vizier in either list to grab the Nightmare, but I guess they valued their other bullets more.

The white splash (Godless Shrine, lol) for Meddling Mage is adorable in Alex's list. I'm not sure it's better than the red, but I guess in a pod variant you could at least make the argument.

Hey this is Gleicher. I had given up on Pod after Treasure Cruise destroyed legacy but since they banned it I decided to pick it back up again. Dig through Time is a pain in the butt, however it's not nearly as bad.
They were missing a Thragtusk in the initial list but I think it's there now. I didn't play a Thoughtseize main like they have on there.

In the swiss I played against and beat:
UB Tezzeret
Miracles
Shardless BUG
Elves
BUG Delver
Double ID'd, then lost in T8 to the same BUG Delver deck.

Thoughts on the deck:
1. Minister of Pain is fantastic. There's a lot of stuff in the format that is vulnerable to it, and it really helps out an otherwise terrible matchup (Elves). A great reason to play Pod again (though the deck still has its issues).
2. I think I'm off Gitaxian Probe. It is great of course when you go Probe into Therapy but it doesn't happen often enough to be worth it, and the rest of the time it just cycles which is actually pretty bad because the deck needs its mana and its life. It would be different if you could afford to play 4 but you can't, both because of the life and because of the deck space.
3. I'm done with Riptide Pilferer in the board. Vedilion Clique is a much stronger card and I'm finally ready to admit that. Also just making combo decks discard 1 isn't great against a lot of them, and some even have creatures to block with. Clique does more in other matchups, like Miracles.
4. The Trinket Mage package is great, and I highly recommend it. Sensei's divining Top makes you about 10X more likely to get an unintentional draw but the power is so high in a deck with this much shuffling, I can't imagine playing without it now. Engineered Explosives was also great.
5. Dryad Arbor was pretty instrumental to fetch up several times and I'll keep it around. However, there might need to be another real land added. This could probably replace 1 of the probes. I think the other could be replaced by a Ponder or the 4th explorer. I worry about flooding out but I think with Top in the deck it's less of an issue, and the extra mana is even more valuable.

Sidisi to get recurring nightmare is definitely an intriguing option. Adding another 5 drop to the deck is scary though.

[LordOMJ]

The white splash (Godless Shrine, lol) for Meddling Mage is adorable in Alex's list. I'm not sure it's better than the red, but I guess in a pod variant you could at least make the argument.

Godless Shrine is the true scrub land.

Dumb jokes out of the way, I really do like Meddling Mage. Shardless BUG sometimes use a Savannah & Meddling Mage out of SB to great effect, and I have to imagine it was similarly valuable (if not more so) here.

[Memories of the Time]

congratulation on the top, yesterday i've made another 4-2 with my BUGr Pod and i'm thinking about what deck to bring at Ovino 10 in Italy, between this and Sylvan Plug.

note: try Yasova, she's incredible

Turn 1 Uwr Stoneblade 1-2
Turn 2 Dredge 2-0
Turn 3 Infect 0-2 (lol)
Turn 4 Omnitell 2-0
Turn 5 Brug 2-0
Turn 5 Brug 2-0

With the following list
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Eternal Witness
4 Brainstorm
3 Birthing Pod
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Swamp
1 Island
2 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Thragtusk
1 Polluted Delta
1 Taiga
1 Yasova Dragonclaw
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Notion Thief
1 Sylvan Library

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Magus of the Moon
(these 3 were Keranos, Anathemancer, Recurring Nightmare)

SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 1 Swan Song
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
1 Magus of the Moon

I want to find something better at cc4 than Notion Thief

[jbone2016]

Dudes-16
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
2 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Non-Dudes-22
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Vindicate

Lands-23
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Windswepth Heath
3 Verdnant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas

Sideboard
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Pithing Needle
2 Choke
1 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Thoughtseize
1 Dryad Militant
2 Containment Priest
1 Humility
1 Dread of Night
1 Ashen Rider

Round 1 (Dredge): He mulls to 5 will I control the board with DRS, Teeg and a jitte. Game 2: Miltant and Priest do work, he firestormed them away but I get priest back with stronghold
Round 2 (GU Post): Just a crappy matchup. I get Emrakul game 1, mull to 5 and ugined with a rhino out.
Round 3 (Reanimator): I make the mistake of tapped out with a ooze in play and get punished for it. Game 2: I have the choice of needle on turn 1 or 2 and then tap for ooze on 2. I choose to just tap out for ooze. But he still get the turn 2 Griselbrand. There was a point where he showed in Iona vs my Siege Rhino that if I rip my karakas, I win. Sadly, no.
Round 4 (Oops all spells) I get Turn 1'd game one and scoop to a therapy. Game 2: Thought seize into teeg into sword of feast and famine. Game 3, he can't go off. Thoughtseize into. Canonist into deed to kill 3 chrome mox
Round 5 (Burn) Rhino into Rhino into Jitte was good. thragtusk and jitte made an appearance game 2.
Round 6 (D&T) Long game one with him having a flickerwisp/batterskull/active jitte/mom vs my sigarda/batterskull. Can't find a removal spell to save my life. Game 2: First turn dread of night hurts a lot, but batterskull/manrikui takes care of my batterskull. If we had another 5 minutes or so, I probably would have gotten a draw (I had DRS, another creature and a SoFaI)
Round 7 (Grixis Omni-tell): Almost dropped but stay to see what I could do. I therapy a pyroclasm out of his hand (after he had burning wish) while I knew he had an Emmy. Game 2, I don't board in my k-grip or golgari charm. Omni vs humility while I have a SoFaF out, I get him down to 3 before he finds a wish for petals and kills me.

The post match up just sucks so hard. The only way I have beaten it is with a Mindcensor. D & T is just a grind at times. I wonder if a go back down to 22 lands and add a decay back in. Dromoka might go back in over Thraggy.
Thrun may go back to the board. Maybe just some crappy match-ups yesterday.

I think my try Sylvan Puig for a few local tourneys before SCG St. Louis. I still get to Rhino people at least.

[GtF]

congratulation on the top, yesterday i've made another 4-2 with my BUGr Pod and i'm thinking about what deck to bring at Ovino 10 in Italy, between this and Sylvan Plug.

I want to find something better at cc4 than Notion Thief

May I recommend Murderous Redcap for cc4? It has been in my list from day 1 and I've never thought about dropping it - it's great.
Yasova Dragonclaw is hilarious. Stealing something and sacrificing it to birthing pod or cabal therapy sounds like a delight.

[Memories of the Time]

May I recommend Murderous Redcap for cc4? It has been in my list from day 1 and I've never thought about dropping it - it's great.
Yasova Dragonclaw is hilarious. Stealing something and sacrificing it to birthing pod or cabal therapy sounds like a delight.

I've played Redcap and probably he's still the best slot, but dunno, with 4 colour i would prefer something more incisive...

Currently i'm playing red only for 2 Magus of the Moon (top hate vs Post and lands, bad MU) and Sulfur Elemental, top vs Mentor.
Are there any alternatives?

[Qweerios]

So I've been sifting through the last 5 or 6 pages looking for some discussion on the most interesting card the new Zendikar set has to offer for Nic Fit and couldn't find anything. Is anyone else psyched about Painful Truths? This card pushes non-blue midrange decks to a new level (Jund, Junk, Dega). Finally we have our own Treasure Cruise. I am definitely looking at 3 copies if I choose to play Junk Fit again.

[Arianrhod]

So I've been sifting through the last 5 or 6 pages looking for some discussion on the most interesting card the new Zendikar set has to offer for Nic Fit and couldn't find anything. Is anyone else psyched about Painful Truths? This card pushes non-blue midrange decks to a new level (Jund, Junk, Dega). Finally we have our own Treasure Cruise. I am definitely looking at 3 copies if I choose to play Junk Fit again.

I dismissed it out of hand. How is it any better than Read the Bones or Abzan Charm?

[Arianrhod]

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Baleful Strix
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Aetherling
1 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Reanimate
1 Show and Tell
1 Pernicious Deed

4 Brainstorm
4 Entomb

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

1 Batterskull

3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island

//sb
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Krosan Grip
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure
2 Flusterstorm
2 Duress
1 Show and Tell
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

Update after more testing.

Jace/Vryn is still The Truth, and has been moved up to 4-of. Loam was consistently average - it had uses but was mostly unexciting, so it came out. Deep Analysis also came out after I never actually ended up needing to get it. Entombing for a Therapy is usually a fine usage for an extra Entomb. The Waste became an 8th fetch with Loam out of the deck.

I put in a pair of Kitchen Finks for testing. They're solid stallers with good synergy with the deck, and the lifegain may be relevant to help offset the reanimates and fetches. I also put in a Batterskull -- we all know how strong Batterskull is in Nic Fit in general -- this deck can use the lifegain much better than most, and it also opens up the line of kill/discard their SFM, renimate their SFM, grab Batterskull. This line sounds pretty cheeky, but it's actually come up fairly often for me as something that I wished I had in my deck to take advantage of, so, we're going to try it.

Sideboard's moved around a little per changing matchups -- this deck does better against combo than most, if not all, Nic Fits I've played. In contrast, its Delver matchup is a bit worse, and while Deathrite Shaman isn't nearly as annoying as it is for traditional reanimator decks, it's still a nuisance that deserves killing, so Disfigure is getting tried out.

I've nicknamed the deck Herbert West. I doubt anyone else really cares // even gets the reference, but I was tired of calling it "reanifit," because that sounds retarded.

[Qweerios]

I dismissed it out of hand. How is it any better than Read the Bones or Abzan Charm?

Drawing 3 cards is a lot better than drawing 2 cards.

[Tom4ik]

I was going to get the cards together to play a reanimate version but at the last min threw a bug midrange deck together (shardless-less bug, no goyf, AV or shardless. Snap, tombstalker and a few more cantrips and 1 mana counters instead) that went 4-0 so I might be off the nic fit for a bit while I play around with this. I may look at the bug control fit lists too as usual though.

Painful truths can be the real deal in non blue nic fit lists. people were talking on this thread about nights whispers, harmonize, etc. This is just better. It also happens to line up perfect with a vet therapy opener (provided the mana works out accordingly) and would be brutal. The lack of it being an instant is also less important when you dont play blue and only play at sorcery speed.

[Echelon]

Instant speed is for filthy hipsters. 3 life is quite a chunk though. And we're already quite top heavy as it is, so how many more 3-drops do we want to add to this deck..?

Also, Herbert West got a lol.

[Memories of the Time]

Skeletal Scrying isn't better?

[Echelon]

At X <= 2 you draw 2 cards at best as opposed to 3 with Painful T. Also, in extreme cornercases (or very early in the game) it could happen that one does not have a filled graveyard. So no, Scrying isn't better then Painful Truth. At 4 mana it does the same as Painful Truth, at Painful Truth + 2 mana you draw 1 extra card. But that's just a bad Tidings.

[Ralf]

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Baleful Strix
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Aetherling
1 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Reanimate
1 Show and Tell
1 Pernicious Deed

4 Brainstorm
4 Entomb

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

1 Batterskull

3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island

//sb
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Krosan Grip
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure
2 Flusterstorm
2 Duress
1 Show and Tell
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

Update after more testing.


From the last tournament I played Rea NicFit with, here is some food for thoughts:

- Griselbrand is lackluster. He is even worse in a list not playing FOW.
- The 3 main "entomb" target are Cabal Therapy, Elesh and Iona.
- I had "aetherling" in hand, just one game, and ended up shuffling him away. I have never wished to entomb + reanimate him. Even if he is only to shore the Miracle MU, I bet we could find something better on a wider scale.
- I see two lines with "Pernicious deed" in your list ? Typo ? I guess it is a maelstrom pulse, right ?
- I am worried of anti grave strategies "post board". The deck gets really hard to pilot when you are facing RIP / Leyline. Bad luck or not, 4 TNN came in each time and I never drew/saw one during G2 & G3 (against fair deck, obviously).
- I don't own any Jace, so I played 1 snap / 1 liliana / 1 careful study. It worked well.
- Many times, I had "Recurring Nightmare" in hand and either I was already winning or I just ended up shuffling it away. I see that you have more creature than me, but still I think that is too "cute".
- Grave titan is amazing.
- Life from the Loam was also average. However, I did like a lot the lone wasteland.

To be discussed anyway.

[Echelon]

Aetherling sucks balls. Elesh Norn should always be in the main 60 when running a deck that can cheat it into play. Griselbrand is mostly overkill, if you manage to get it onto the battlefield chances are you've got the game in the pocket. Usually it's the worst cheat-into-play target one can have. Blazing Archon can be an insta-win vs. certain decks. And the fact that it isn't a legend does come in handy from time to time.

Also, Herbert West Fit tries to do too much. You try to be able to smash face AND win via "combo", yet lack the ability to smash face consistently or stall long enough to force the combo through.

Those that want to cheat fatties into play should try the Summoner's Egg list. At least that beast has some synergy in its plans, also limiting the number of slots one needs for all necessary bits (leaving more room for removal). Fun fact: Elesh Norn is often better then Emrakul, lol.

[Tom4ik]

I would drop aetherling also. In addition I am not a fan of recurring nightmare either. Griselbrand without fow I agree with Ralf on this. I think right now the list is a little scattered. It wants to be able to cast the targets (tusk/titan) yet also not in GB and elesh, etc. You want to play sweepers, show, jace I mean it is a little all over the place. I think we need to focus more. I think you either need to commit a little more to the reanimation side of things or lose some of that and play a nic fit deck that can combo off. That being said I think a reanimate list that has the vet engine and the occasional ability to cast some of the targets has a niche.

Truths is better than scrying. 1-You dont need a graveyard, that is a big deal post board and early game. 2- It is more efficient. Truth will be a 3 mana draw 2 rarely and a 3 mana draw 3 most of the time, that is a better rate than scrying 3- Truth will only played in junk/jund fit decks so instant speed is not a big deal 4- I doubt scrying is cast for 4B+ much of the time. That is the only time it is more powerful. Draw 3 for 3 is fine late anyway as I would rather draw 3 and play something than dump an entire turn and 1/2 my remaining life into draw 5.

The lifeloss is not trivial but I am assuming this goes into some junk deck with rhino + sfm/jite/bskull or jund with hunt/tusk. If those decks want to hang with the blue decks they need to draw cards. Aside from library/top, this is probably it.

I do not remember off the top of my head the lists ppl on junk are on but what is the typical curve? People were literally talking about moving to a whisper based draw engine if top was banned. Now they give you a card that is better? I would rather pay 3 draw 3 than 2 draw 2. I dont play junk so take all that for what its worth, it all just IMHO

[sdematt]

Painful Truths seems interesting. I've shaved cuter stuff:

3 Veteran Explorer
4 Siege Rhino
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Painful Truths
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Eternal Witness
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Path to Exile
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Sylvan Library
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Toxic Deluge


SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Tsunami
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist

Now there's 2 Painful Truths, 3 Tops, and a Sylvan Library for card advantage/selection. I think that'll help the stalls we sometimes get in.

[Ralf]

Painful Truths seems interesting. I've shaved cuter stuff:

Now there's 2 Painful Truths, 3 Tops, and a Sylvan Library for card advantage/selection. I think that'll help the stalls we sometimes get in.

I think you are still being too cute.
Rhino truly shines with equipment and your list is screaming for playing at least Jitte + Batterskull.
Thrun can easily be chump blocked all day.
Recurring nightmare is "nice" but looping Rhino is more likely than not a sweet dream.

Why don't you try something more "Rock/Maverish" ?
I firmly believe that in the current meta a list like the following could be really strong.

Here is where I am after a bit of testing.
Btw, I started with 2 Painful Truths and went up to 3. The card is really powerful.


1 Dryad Arbor
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Veteran Explorer
2 Siege Rhino
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Painful Truths
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize

SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares

[maharis]

Turn 3 Painful Truths, turn 4 Rhino or even Obstinate Baloth seems like a major beating.

I like the card in a really grindy, tapout control deck. I hope that doesn't mean it's just another blue card in Legacy. There are definitely interesting things you could try.

I think you basically tune the deck to crush any fair matchup, then overload on disruption and try to win two post board games vs. combo. Play lots of removal, name counterspells with therapy so you don't get your truths dazed, and try to drown them in card advantage like Shardless does. Honestly, the card probably shouldn't even be in your deck postboard against combo -- make your deck leaner with hatebears and pinpoint discard.

I don't have a list immediately, but I do like this card as a way to solve some of the problems this deck has currently in the fair matchups that used to be so good.

[Paranoid__Android]

There's a big legacy tournament coming for the Halloween this year in a city near me, and I'm not sure which deck to play to score a Top4 place. This is my collection for now:

https://deckbox.org/sets/766621?s=i&o=d


There are four pairs of shocklands (2x R/G, 2x W/R, 2x B/R, 2x W/U) coming next week, an order from Card Kingdom with random stuff that will be updated on tuesday (Baneslayers, etc.), and I still have time for a new order to buy some cards, for around 60-80 dollars.
Since I prefer to play classic Abzan Rhino sdmatt's lists, which brought me many top4 places, I want to build a version to playtest against tier1 decks to get some experience (which I think there would be a ton). Any suggestions? :D

[sdematt]

Well, I guess try what I posted on the previous page? Glad I can try to help. PM me and I'll send you some signed Rhinos ;)

-Matt

[uncletiggy]

My personal recommendation would be something in between ralf and matts list from the previous page. Rhino is best when he either has a stick in his mouth or looping etb. Id look to be doing both. Painful truths is currently untested so I wouldnt go that route just yet. Keep in mind gurmag is the new fat in town and lines up extremely well against deed rhino and decay bring atleast 3 path/plow. If you are planning on running shocklands you'll need the thragtusk.


Something like
4 vet
2 stoneforge
4 rhino
1 sigarda
1 courser
1 deathrite
1 scooze
1 teeg

1 sofi
1 jitte
1

4 therapy
3 top
3 plow
3 decay
3 deed
4 zenith
1 nightmare


22 land

[Paranoid__Android]

Well, since I'm hoarding Rhinos, the more the merrier. :P

I'll sleeve up that list and playtest against my buddies, since I can't log on Cockatrice. -.-'

[Dadadot]

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/funky-rhino/

My current list. Suggestions are welcome (especially sideboard). Decks i really struggle against: Lands, Mud, 12 Post, Omni

[sdematt]

Why are you running Night? I'd definitely run Deluge over it instead, and if you really wanted to, run it in the board.

My suggestions for your mainboard:

-1 Strangleroot
-1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
-2 STP
-1 Veteran Explorer

+2 Path to Exile
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Sylvan Library
+2 Painful Truths

Sideboard suggestions:

1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thoughtseize
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Krosan Grip
1 Golgari Charm
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Extirpate

[sdematt]

Also, I'm going to try Equipment and see how I like it.

-Matt

[uncletiggy]

Intent plays well with stoneforge over the fourth zenith slot.

[Echelon]

Intent also plays incredibly well with Strangleroot. How about dumping Birthing Pod, pumping the number of Strangelroots & Vet Ex to 4 and run 4 flipping Diabolic Intent..? It's the coolest card ever if you don't care about your creatures dying (I also like to abuse Fierce Empath to that end. GSZ it, fetch a Tasigur/Angler with it, feed it to an Intent, fetch whatever tickles your pickle and rock on).

I've been running 4 Intent in my crazy ass build for the longest time and I can say with the utmost confidence that it gives you wonderful SB games. When doing so the manabase does scream for a Dryad Arbor though. Fetch Arbor -> Diabolic Intent is a play I make quite often.

My major point for the list though is that the StPs should be PtEs. No need to give your opponent more life, this deck durdles enough as it is.

Also, when running SFM, try to run a Grafted Wargear. Makes every topdecked creature a 4/3 (in the worst case scenario). Dropping it on a Strangleroot is just funny as fuck and nicely/easily breaks symetry with opposing Batterskulls/Tasigurs etc.

[Ralf]

Intent also plays incredibly well with Strangleroot. How about dumping Birthing Pod, pumping the number of Strangelroots & Vet Ex to 4 and run 4 flipping Diabolic Intent..? It's the coolest card ever if you don't care about your creatures dying.

I've been running 4 Intent in my crazy ass build for the longest time and I can say with the utmost confidence that it gives you wonderful SB games.

My major point for the list though is that the StPs should be PtEs. No need to give your opponent more life, this deck durdles enough as it is.

Also, when running SFM, try to run a Grafted Wargear. Makes every topdeck a 4/3 (in the worst case scenario). Dropping it on a Strangleroot is just funny as fuck.

The color requirement to make this strategy viable is very high:
1) You need GG by T2 to play Strangleroot.
2) You need BB by T3 to play Diabolic Intent + a 1 CMC discard spell (worst case scenario you are facing a combo deck)

In order to achieve such requirement you will have to play :
- 20 green sources to have >90% chances of playing Strangleroot by T2
- 19 black sources to have >90% chances of playing Intent + discard spell in the same turn.
- Your first or second mana must be either a Bayou or an Overgrown Tomb

I don't pretend it is going to work but for demonstration purpose I would definitely stick to a pure G/B Nic Fit shell.


4 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Verdant catacombs
4 Windswept heath
4 Bayou
3 Overgrown Tomb

4 Veteran explorer
4 Strangleroot Geist
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Vorapede
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan

1 Batterskull

3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Pernicious Deed

4 Abrupt Decay

4 Diabolic Intent
3 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal therapy
3 Green Sun Zenith

SB: 1 Dryad Militant
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Stain the Mind
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Pithing Needle


Thrun is not included since I believe Geist/Batterskull can do some of "his" duty. Haste is more often than not a very powerful weapon.

Sideboard is a mess but you get the general idea.

[Tom4ik]

I think you for sure want to go junk colors. The added power cards are worth it. I also think people are underestimating the painful truth card. The only other draw 3 card nic fit has played is harmonize and 3 mana is very different than 4. Three mana is available on turn 2 between DRS and vet/therapy. The white splash has plenty of ways to gain life. Rhino, DRS, equips, ooze. If I was playing a junk deck right now I would be playing 2 possibly 3 depending on space.

I havent played with this card but from a theoretical stand point I am very high on it especially in this deck.

[Dadadot]

Why are you running Night? I'd definitely run Deluge over it instead, and if you really wanted to, run it in the board.

My suggestions for your mainboard:

-1 Strangleroot
-1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
-2 STP
-1 Veteran Explorer

+2 Path to Exile
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Sylvan Library
+2 Painful Truths

Sideboard suggestions:

1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thoughtseize
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Krosan Grip
1 Golgari Charm
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Extirpate

Thanks Matt, i will try you sideboard out online and see how it works. Also i like the swap of stp for path to exile (i ramp my opponent anyway and maybe i can race a lands player now once in a while).
The idea for nights came from a list a friend showed me. Many decks can just scoop to it (in my meta there are many delver and d&t decks). In addition it is a sac outlet for explorers (well, you mostly don't need them anymore after playing nights but w/e). Also it works ok with strangleroot geist (which i included for plainswalker duty... works soso)
I will think about the painful truth part (library is too much of a nombo with deed i think) though i think sword of fire and ice takes partly that role.

I also was thinking about a second phyrexian tower for more explosive starts but i don't know if it's too conditional.
SFM and equipments are at least crazy fun and rhinos with swords is a pleasure in itself (I'm still searching for a reasonable way to get them rhinos flying to win through style points once in a while)

[Arianrhod]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/september-28-2015-banned-and-restricted-announcement-2015-09-28

Good news. The remaining Delve menace is gone, and we can actually exist again now. Now if only RUG Delver comes back, we can thrive again.

[Tom4ik]

Uhhhhhh.... I am not particularly happy with the ban update but then again I was casting Dig. Bug lists lost the biggest upgrade over other lists. Not sure what direction I want to take with the deck.

[Ricardio]

Time to revisit the grind: Punishing Jund Fit.

[Arianrhod]

Uhhhhhh.... I am not particularly happy with the ban update but then again I was casting Dig. Bug lists lost the biggest upgrade over other lists. Not sure what direction I want to take with the deck.

RIP Kiora/Master + Dig Through Time, we never got the chance to know you.

[Ralf]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/september-28-2015-banned-and-restricted-announcement-2015-09-28

Good news. The remaining Delve menace is gone, and we can actually exist again now. Now if only RUG Delver comes back, we can thrive again.

+1

[Memories of the Time]

In a BUGx pod list, how we can deal with Aggro Loam and Lands?

[GtF]

In a BUGx pod list, how we can deal with Aggro Loam and Lands?

If you run the trinket mage package you can get pithing needle out of the board which is good vs them, naming thespians stage or knight (there are other good cards to name as well). You also have deathrite and scavenging ooze. However the matchup is not going to be great no matter what. Punishing fire is just really good vs the deck with lots of small creatures and there's not much to be done about it. You could play surgical extraction I suppose, but I don't know that it helps enough to be worth it.

[Tom4ik]

I run 2 surgical extractions in my bug SB, though I also play 2 snap casters. Lands is never going to be a good match up for a deck with a slow clock and no wastelands. Scooze, drs and you might be able to randomly steal a game. post board try to hit loam. The aggro loam should be easier. Deed their board and keep them off knights or bobs.

[sdematt]

I'm excited, once again. Prepare for the midrange decks to creep back into the format, and probably a bit less Pyromancer Grixis.

[Tom4ik]

This also actually makes truths a better card. You now get to run a 3 for 1 card and the blue decks do not get to counter with a 2 for 1. Omni also becomes Sneak and show wich I have to imagine is a better match up. Discard is much stronger against them. Liliana shuts of the show part so hey, maybe things are looking for the Rock.

[Themucher]

Good bye blue control, hello veteran explorer my old friend.

As sad as it is to see my grixis deck go, man is it going to be fun to cast prime time in legacy again.

On a side note, is anybody still playing the jund nic fit with punishing fire? Interested to see what people are thinking of for our one of's for the potential new meta showing more aggro/midrange strategies.

[Memories of the Time]

I'm thinking about Back To basics too. Not sure if 4 Leyline of the Void would be too much

[Tom4ik]

I considered B2B but I fetch my duals fairly often because of the mana requirements. If you can support it though it is the blue blood moon.

[Echelon]

I don't pretend it is going to work but for demonstration purpose I would definitely stick to a pure G/B Nic Fit shell.

Stuff...


That build is so incredibly far off from what I had in mind. I was thinking of something along the lines of this:


3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower

4 Veteran explorer
3 Strangleroot Geist
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Fierce Empath
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Karador, Ghost Chieftain
1 Grave Titan

1 Batterskull
1 Grafted Wargear

4 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal therapy
3 Green Sun Zenith


This way, GSZ allows you to tutor up a big (and yet possibly cheap) threat whilst also leaving you food for your Diabolic Intent. Karador is incredible in the late game, if unanswered. It lets you pull ahead so incredibly fast, and when combined with Eternal Witness it's just nuts (even if it's only 1 creature each turn).

Also, Diabolic Intent isn't a card one wants to cast as soon as possible, so there's no need with being overly concerned with the speed of it. The trick to Diabolic Intent is keeping it in hand for as long as you can only to find exactly what you need just when you need it most. It allows you to turn games around completely.

Looking at this build, one could drop the Strangleroots though, add another Stoneforge and some more removal. It's a bit easier on the manabase. I'd say this build lacks a bit of the punching power of our regular build, but gains in consistency. It's about the same basis I use for my Summoner's Egg build.

[Tom4ik]

Lets be honest, Jitte is better than grafted war gear. If you do nothing with the Jitte besides pump than after the first hit it even becomes better than war gear. I do not buy that it is a better equipment.

I do like the empath for delve guy but I do think Tasigur might not be right. I played 2 of them when he first came out but I have decided the potential for CA is not worth the loss of a power (4/5 to 5/5). I think angler is better with karakas in the field. I also like Tombstalker. Flying is relevant whether it is with jitte or the war gear punching them in the face is going to be easier with that. Last week I ran 2 stalkers in my Bug midrange build and I had forgotten about him.

3 DRS and 4 vet is certainly a lot of mana dorks. I think I would shave some of those numbers. I would also play some amount of tops plus either library or try the new painful truths card.

[Echelon]

Yeah, Jitte is good. I just like that Grafted Wargear doesn't need you to invest any mana in it after casting it.

Concerning Tasigur vs. Angler - the most annoying thing about Tasigur is that it's legendary. Sometimes, its ability does come in handy, but those times are few. You indeed mostly use him like a beatstick. So in those cases Angler would be better. As for Angler vs. Tombstalker - B vs BB is quite a big difference.

[Tom4ik]

The war gear certainly speeds up the aggro plan. Not denying that. I just feel the loss of secondary abilities is not offset enough by the speed of the war gear. Hey, if you like the war gear all power to you. +3 power on the front end is not nothing.

I would choose Angler over Tasigur if that is the choice. I would heavily consider adding stalker instead as I believe that flying+equipment is worth the 1 B but I dont think its strictly better.

I am going to give my dig through time nic fit deck 1 last go this week. After that I dont know yet. The card selection was so huge in making the blue splash IMO so good. It let the deck run so many powerful singletons and with the mana snap dig was fairly common as well. I am not sure the build I have can survive that without an over hall. Probe therapy is still good but without delve draw spells I am not sure if probe is still worth it.
Rug delver, and actually the other delvers too should all make a resurgence. Dnt and shardless bug as well. That does bode well for Deed decks. Elves could be hit or miss as people have at times on this thread complained about that matchup but I have found it pretty good actually.

The bigger problem is that miracles is still going to be a/the top deck and I have not seen a build yet that I would actually call favorable game 1.

[Memories of the Time]

In my experience pod has a good Mu against miracle

[sdematt]

Inherently, Veteran Explorer is a non-bo with Miracles, which is why many lists have shaved from 4 Vets down to 3 or 2 and replaced it with Deathrite Shaman. You're definitely boarding these gents out in the Miracles match.

But, since most of us were still playing Choke or Tsunami a week ago, it looks like we'll be good to go. 5-6 manadorks seems to be the right call. I'm on 2/3 right now, but 3/3 also seems just fine since it's just enough acceleration when we need it, postboard.

Suffice to say, I'm excited Delver is back, since you know, Rhino + Deed.

-Matt

[maharis]

Just built this to test. In goldfishing, Painful Truths seems really strong. I think this is the best deck for it, because how many decks can play a 3-mana, 3-color sorcery that bolts you. Still I know this list is not optimized, Kitchen Finks seems necessary but Thrun is such a tank it's hard to say no.

3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Veteran Explorer
2 Siege Rhino
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Eternal Witness
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Painful Truths
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Path to Exile
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Batterskull

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Marsh Flats

For the board, I think I want some mix of Thalia, Teeg, more hand disruption, maybe surgical. Carpet of Flowers for Miracles. I'm on the fence about the main board, I'm considering cutting Hymn for more removal and just boarding into hatebears-and-discard.dec for combo matches. I also would like some sort of evasive planes walker but I think they are all double white....

[Tom4ik]

If you are just looking for a generic walker to help out in post board games against grindy decks I would recommend the flip garruk. While 4 mana is a lot it also lets you convert sfm/vet/arbor into things like rhino/thrun/witness. I am not sure he is good enough to make a main board but he is good against other SFM decks and miracles.

[Ralf]

If you are just looking for a generic walker to help out in post board games against grindy decks I would recommend the flip garruk. While 4 mana is a lot it also lets you convert sfm/vet/arbor into things like rhino/thrun/witness. I am not sure he is good enough to make a main board but he is good against other SFM decks and miracles.

DTT banned means Lili is back, gentlemen.

She is the second best PW after Jace.
One that cannot be left unchecked by the decks that tend to go over us (if you see what I mean).

[Themucher]

What decks does everybody sideboard out their explorers? I know miracles is an easy one but what else is there

[Holo_rip]

Well boys, with DTT banned it's time for us to get out of the closet once again ! I'll post an updated list soon.

On a side note, i've played a Nic Fit list during thesource tournament, but i kinda forgot to include the SDT in my list. That kinda screwed me over and went 1-2...

Holo.

[maharis]

The more I noodle around with this deck, the more I think we might really have something. If you think about how games will go against fair decks, you will either be developing your board with must-answer cards that require them to spend time and mana on counters/removal, or using your own suite of answers on their threats if they are on the offensive. And then you drop this bomb on them and fill your hand with more insane value cards. Yes, they will have lots of selection, but at some point, you're ripping bombs and removal while they're shuffling away other cantrips to find their business. And that could include cards like Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay that are limited in their utility against us. STP sucks, I guess, but then again we have Painful Truths.

I am going to try and find some space for a green 2-drop (I guess that would have to be Scavenging Ooze, but I don't really like that card) and a Finks. Some other way to recur, maybe Recurring Nightmare, would also be nice.

I don't think there's a way to make this strategy good against combo pre-board. I think this is the kind of board I want:

3 Thoughtseize/Duress
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Surgical Extraction/other
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Nihil Spellbomb/Containment Priest
1 open

I expect to lean heavily on discard-and-extract vs. most combo decks, with the upside of Thalia against storm. Thalia also a way to needle decks that don't benefit from the VetRamp even more.


If you are just looking for a generic walker to help out in post board games against grindy decks I would recommend the flip garruk. While 4 mana is a lot it also lets you convert sfm/vet/arbor into things like rhino/thrun/witness. I am not sure he is good enough to make a main board but he is good against other SFM decks and miracles.

Right... I like the card but I was thinking more along the lines of an Elspeth that grants flying. I can envision ground stalls still happening (though trample on Rhino does help)

I just remembered that the Khans Sorin makes flying tokens so that might be the answer. Also lifelinks your guys in play for more Painful Truths.

[Ralf]

Right... I like the card but I was thinking more along the lines of an Elspeth that grants flying. I can envision ground stalls still happening (though trample on Rhino does help)

I just remembered that the Khans Sorin makes flying tokens so that might be the answer. Also lifelinks your guys in play for more Painful Truths.

At least, for queen sake, put a Sigarda somewhere in your list !!!

I would also look twice at the list I have provided a couple pages back.
I can understand why one wants to keep SDT + Deed in a list but when you have access to such powerful draw engine, you can easily leave sweepers at home and play cheaper spot removal, because you will be able to cope with the blue quality with "quantity".

6/7 spot removal & 6/7 spot discard MD are a very good ratio against most T1 & T2 decks. If you add the grindy elements of Nic Fit into the mix, you have something really interesting.

[Tom4ik]

I have my cash weekly tonight so I am taking DTT for one last spin. After that I will redesign my BUG deck and post a list. I think deed will actually become better in the new meta so that is a plus for those running that card. I have fallen in love with probe therapy but without dig in my deck I am not sure the probe is worth it anymore. I could always play tombstalker but I doubt I will.

I board vet out against any deck that just making land drops will provide me enough time that ramping is unneeded. Basically miracles, uw blade, or other slowish control decks.

I think Lili is for sure a walker we want access to again. I would probably run 2. She is is also a hedge against flooding as trading lands or late game vets for their cards is fine when we have multiple edicts on tap. I probably woulnt run another walker unless its the garruk though. The fact that it is removal/tutor is better than a 1/1 token maker that can jump things IMO. Garruk also has an overrun that gives trample too so there is that. Still wouldnt main deck either.

Ralf is right, sigarda is better than thrun if you have white.

I am still a believer that deed is a way to break open games. Sure you have matchups like omni or storm where it is likely dead. Lily helps here and if in blue so does jace and brainstorm. Deed is such a unique effect in legacy, and it is truly a CA spell unlike 1 for 1 removal. I would not removal all copies from any list I play (aside from any reanimate fit decks maybe).

[Ralf]

I think deed will actually become better in the new meta so that is a plus for those running that card.

I board vet out against any deck that just making land drops will provide me enough time that ramping is unneeded. Basically miracles, uw blade, or other slowish control decks.

I think Lili is for sure a walker we want access to again. I would probably run 2. She is is also a hedge against flooding as trading lands or late game vets for their cards is fine when we have multiple edicts on tap. I probably woulnt run another walker unless its the garruk though. The fact that it is removal/tutor is better than a 1/1 token maker that can jump things IMO. Garruk also has an overrun that gives trample too so there is that. Still wouldnt main deck either.

Ralf is right, sigarda is better than thrun if you have white.

I am still a believer that deed is a way to break open games. Deed is such a unique effect in legacy, and it is truly a CA spell unlike 1 for 1 removal. I would not removal all copies from any list I play (aside from any reanimate fit decks maybe).

Deed is actually a strong option and I'm not going to deny its power.
Unfortunately, aside from very specific MU where it shines like no other sweeper, it is more likely than not a very costly "spot removal". Even if Nic Fit is a fringe deck, there are less and less players who tend to overextend when they are facing a veteran.deck

[Tom4ik]

If they do not overextend into deed than the liliana/decay/path/swords/pulse spot removal becomes even better. Not only is it a 1 for 1 but it buys additional draw steps. If they choose to hold creatures doesnt that end up making our discard stay relevant longer than it normally would?

This deck puts 6+ land into play routinely. I am more than happy to pay extra on my removal spells for the "chance" at a 2 for 1. The fact that it cleans up dnt's vials/equips, pyro and the tokens, mentor and the tokens, CB and angels, tnn and the sac fodder, goose and all for an extra 2-3 mana is totally fine. Without running tons of CA spells this deck cannot 1 for 1 decks for the win. We will draw too many land, too many weak creatures, and too much discard that drawing off the top will win the game.

1 for 1's are much more efficient you are right. That matters more when you have a clock in play.

[Ralf]

If they do not overextend into deed than the liliana/decay/path/swords/pulse spot removal becomes even better. Not only is it a 1 for 1 but it buys additional draw steps. If they choose to hold creatures doesnt that end up making our discard stay relevant longer than it normally would?

This deck puts 6+ land into play routinely. I am more than happy to pay extra on my removal spells for the "chance" at a 2 for 1. The fact that it cleans up dnt's vials/equips, pyro and the tokens, mentor and the tokens, CB and angels, tnn and the sac fodder, goose and all for an extra 2-3 mana is totally fine. Without running tons of CA spells this deck cannot 1 for 1 decks for the win. We will draw too many land, too many weak creatures, and too much discard that drawing off the top will win the game.

1 for 1's are much more efficient you are right. That matters more when you have a clock in play.

My comment is guided by the inclusion of Sylvan Library and Painful truths which synergize better with the build I have proposed than deed.
I have also learnt that putting all your eggs in the same basket is dangerous. I have lost games against D&T where a protected (by MoR) revoker goes a very long way against your deed. The same can be told about miracle and their fucking soft lock.
Not to mention the many games I have lost to poison or elves because deed is not fast enough.

The list can go on. Sure deed is powerful but I am willing to trade it for faster answers and raw replenish options.
Trading blow for blow in a more proactive way until one of our few bombs break through and leave your opponent cold dead to it.

I do not clame this is THE route to take with Nic Fit but, right now this is the one I am willing to take, at least with a Junk style Fit where you have just access to both best spot removals ever and one of the best creature in its shell, all-star when equipped.

Truths will be gold, here. And in gold, I trust (pun intended without offense)

[Memories of the Time]

This is the list i want to bring this saturday at the big event in Italy:


1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Swamp
1 Island
2 Forest
1 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thragtusk
1 Yasova Dragonclaw
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Minister of Pain
1 Liliana, Heretical Healer
1 Grave Titan

1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
3 Birthing Pod
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Pernicious Deed

SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 2 Swan Song
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Primal Order
SB: 1 Zur's Weirding

I still have many doubts after the banlist:
-Manabase, first of all. I see many of yours are playing less than 7 dorks while i was thinking about adding 4° drs

-Some 1x: Grave titan (it's the best closer?), Sower, Minister (sideboard?), new Liliana (seems very nice in a pod build).

-Sideboard: Zur's is one of my favorite cards and a gg against miracle and combo 99/100 times. Still don't know if the third Deed could be replaced by Engineered Plague, Dread of Night, Night of Souls' Betrayal or Minister itself.
Primal Order is a nuke against lands mu while it's still very good against control and rogue deck like Mud and so on. Kill pw and impose a clock. The alternative is Back to Basics (loam/lands Mu scares me very much)

Every suggestion is welcomed ^^

[Star|Scream]

I have my cash weekly tonight so I am taking DTT for one last spin. After that I will redesign my BUG deck and post a list. I think deed will actually become better in the new meta so that is a plus for those running that card. I have fallen in love with probe therapy but without dig in my deck I am not sure the probe is worth it anymore. I could always play tombstalker but I doubt I will.


The Meadery wasn't broadcasting last night. How did you do?

[Tom4ik]

Didnt end up doing it. Mead hall has been occasionally not firing. They used to get 30 on the regular for legacy and then they changed payouts and barely got 10. They have since went back to cash payout of up to $80 for a 4-0 night so I imagine people will start to filter back in. Lately it has been around 12-16ish.

I played a pretty janky Bug pile to last weeks and it was nice to actually have a deck with all good cards in it again. The more you play nic fit the more you talk yourself into cards you really shouldnt just because you can cast them.

@memories- I played Liliana in 1 match so far. I had her in the board for a couple weeks and never ended up bringing her in often but I did play her in a burn match and she was fantastic. I imagine you can get more value from her than I could. the zombie starts the pod chain and bringing strix and witness back seems like you can extract decent value from her.

I am not sure in pod builds the exact ratios you need but the minister and yasova both seem pretty low power. I dont think I would run them, at least not main but if they are needed for the chains i would imagine they are passable.

I like grave titan in the abstract because of how fast it closes games. I have gone back and forth with that card but sometimes the easiest path to victory was turbo titan. granted this was easier when we had 3X DTT to find the one of titan. If you have trouble with lands the best way to win fast is through titan. Consecrated could be the other option but without things like fow to draw to in the main it has less appeal. One note on that is if you pair it with weirding be a powerful way to get ahead.

Back to basics is not good for us. I ran a few in the side before but its scorched earth at its finest. pod might operate off basics better than the Bug control version I was on but I was actually pretty worried because I was forced to fetch duals early pretty often with the color requirements. I wouldnt run B2B or Primal order honestly. The primal order will not win you the match against lands (they will destroy it or race the damage) so its not worth running in that slot.

Dont run a 3rd deed in the board. Ralf was right about match ups like dnt that can go mom -> revoker deed. I run 2 main and have 1 deluge in the board. Deluge is 3rd sweeper (like deed) but you will "almost" always be boarding the additional deed in against small creature decks anyway so the deluge being only a creature sweeper is fine and it gives you an out to deed being shut off.

The Fow count also looks extremely low. I am not sure if we can add anything in the main/SB to add to that. The worst feeling will be for you to board force in and get it in your hand and not have a card to pitch in the first few turns.

[Dadadot]

I wonder what's up with the cutting of Veteran Explorers. I thought it was a big "nono" considering too that nic fit is basically explorer + cabal. That said I would like to try a 3 Veteran Explorer + 3 Deathrite Shaman Version with 4 GSZ just for the possibility of playing without any veteran explorer (at least early) against decks like miracles and dnt.
Anybody got any experience with cutting down explorers?

Also: why reanimator fit? i don't really see the point


my current list, if anybody wants to give input (I'm crazy happy with it)
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/funky-rhino/

[Qweerios]

I wonder what's up with the cutting of Veteran Explorers. I thought it was a big "nono" considering too that nic fit is basically explorer + cabal. That said I would like to try a 3 Veteran Explorer + 3 Deathrite Shaman Version with 4 GSZ just for the possibility of playing without any veteran explorer (at least early) against decks like miracles and dnt.
Anybody got any experience with cutting down explorers?

Also: why reanimator fit? i don't really see the point


my current list, if anybody wants to give input (I'm crazy happy with it)
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/funky-rhino/

I have cut down to 1 explorer for well over a year now. I dropped them down around the same time I ditched Deed for Stoneforge. Additionally, Deathrite is leagues ahead of Vet with regards to, well, everything really. Nic Fit decks that rely on a Vet trigger to function properly are doomed to consistently lose to frequent inconsistencies. Since you don't want to draw Vet without Therapy, don't need the trigger to function, can't really abuse multiple instances, have 4 GSZ for availability, and should care for better cards, you don't need multiple Vets...

[Tom4ik]

I have been running 4 vets in Bug and even with 4 Bs, 2-3 Jaces, and snap casters and Lilianas to trade Vets for other cards I have run into the same issue as Qweerios. I am considering running 3 Vets. The downside to that for most bug lists is that they do not play GSZ.

The long running pressure that Veteran explorer decks run into is the idea we function better with more land/we can function at all with vet triggers. If we build a deck to maximize that it will end up being inconsistent when we do not have vet. If you lower your curve to hedge your bets on it then the deck ceases to really be much better than a standard rock deck with DRS instead. GSZ does allow a lot of the flexibility in this as adding a few large bombs in green gives you the powerful late game.

Personally, the reason for me being down on the deck archetype as a whole right now is its hard for me to think what the deck does is worth cost. I can play a birthing pod and 3 turns down the line end up with a redcap? sure there is some value there but so is casting Jace, or any number of better cards. This deck was a beating in a meta where deed maindeck was powerful. Now people are cutting deed. If we are going to play bad cards (like veteran explorer) we need to really justify the power that it lends itself to. I do like that most junk lists are now cutting vets and suntitans and running better cards so I am excited to see where that leads even though I doubt I will ever attempt to cast a siege rhino.

[Ralf]

so I am excited to see where that leads even though I doubt I will ever attempt to cast a siege rhino.

Proxy a list and try one.
Don't be ashamed of casting a Rhino.

First, I thought it was the beast which could push back Junk into light. I was disappointed. Goyfs were subsequently larger.
I put him aside for a while, until I started using equipments.

I wouldn't scorn Rock. We have a lot to learn from their abzan's perspective.
Also I wouldn't compare Abzan Fit with Sultai Fit.

The two can play deed but I truly think Sultai is better "fitted" to use it. Hence, I've started to think "different" while playing Junk Fit.

Even if, lately, a lot of our discussions have turned around Junk Fit, I'm still devoted to Nic Fit in general. The last tournament I played with BUG Fit (featuring some reanimation spells) but BUG nonetheless.
I'm still searching how to adapt my BUG Fit control since DTT's departure as I am also trying to improve the creature's pack we have access in the BUG Rea Fit. Time / ideas will tell.

Take a deep breath and take a step outside your comfort zone: try playing Junk for a week or two.
I would be more than happy to trade some new ideas.

Nic Fit has "lost" a strong contender namely "Omni" and I am almost happy to play again Sneak in a very future; just to tell you how badly I was sick of this deck...

Cheer up !

[Dadadot]

I tried out Junk Fit with siege rhino and equipments and din't really like it very much. It's gives you nice board control and utility but in the end i was feeling like it didn't really belong in the deck. Removing the sfm package and adding recurring nightmare and restoration to the deck felt much more natural. Siege Rhino is a crazy threat with the 4/5 body and trample (!) and makes it at least comparable to goyfs if not better under certain circumstance. It's decay- and deedproof (mostly at least). The triggered ability alone can win games with angels, recurring nightmares and (maybe) eternal witnesses. The sfm package is nice and all but in the end you could also just play maverick or d&t.

I feel like people lately want to make nic fit sth what it just isn't.

I feel like junk fit with rhinos, nightmares and deeds takes into considering most aspects of nic fit and encourages you to play it like the ramp deck it is. Against decks like d&t or miracles you can always play around explorers and play the deck more control focused until you board.
I still want to try out bug pod fit because i really love the idea of playing pod in legacy (which most veterans seem to frown on) and the broad spectrum of plays possible and just straight gb fit.


I'm still relatively new to magic and nic fit maybe my opinion will be completely different in half a year or sth.

[Jain_Mor]

@Dadadot, unfortunately one mana 5/5 is the new two mana 4/5, and deeding for 7 isn't so practical.
With dig gone gurmag might disappear, but I really doubt it.

I first started testing with SFM when Khans was first released, the idea behind it was that SFM is like a GSun in its cost flexibility and Swiss Army knife effect. It can give you removal, life gain, a threat, make your creatures the biggest kids on the block or give your late game small creatures a purpose.

It's a powerful threat at 2, 4, 5, 6 and 7 mana! It gives the deck a threat at 2 mana, it soaks up their removal spells, gives you card advantage and gives you another creature you don't mind saccing to therapy.

In my eyes it was ideal. The only issue being it takes up between 5-7 slots depending on how far you want to go, and made deed less viable. Deed was less viable because of gurmag anyway, and getting rid of it allowed you to add sylvan library instead of top.

I haven't looked back since ;)

[Memories of the Time]

Hello everybody
Yesterday i've partecipated at OvinoX, 335p i think, nine rounds, with this list:
With the following list

3 Veteran Explorer
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Eternal Witness
4 Brainstorm
3 Birthing Pod
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Pernicious Deed

1 Swamp
2 Island
2 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Polluted Delta

1 Reclamation Sage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Thragtusk
1 Yasova Dragonclaw
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Shriekmaw
1 Sylvan Library
1 Titania
1 Sower of temptation
1 Redcap
3 Ponder

SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 2 Swan Song
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Zur's Weirding
2 Primal Order that i haven't find in the place, so i've chosen 1 Memoricide and 1 Engineered Plague


Close with 5-2-2 and a lot of regrets.
Mud 2-0
Canadian 2-0
Burn 1-2 (Sadly, g1 he has won with exact damages and mana with Barbarian ring...)
Shardless 1-1 (last additional turn, lot of things in game and i've to think a lot with Yasova and 2 drs -he had 2 drs too-, i tried a trick to win (mislead his drs acting as i don't remember he had a decay on hand) and i succeeded: then i've said, enter in combact and i'm gonna think about Yasova target. Judge told me "you can't think, if you'have entered in the combact phase you have to have yet decided the target. So i had to rush and i failed to win.
Aggro Loam 2-0
Miracle 2-0
BUG delver 1-2 Very unlucky, also because there aren't other ways to lose this MU. Very very sad, he reached nine for rating.
Miracle 2-0
Miracle 1-1 (Last turn, slow play, slow minds, our fault to not concede).

I'm very happy about 3 ponder and the list in general. Sower is huge in this meta, while i haven't liked Maw to much: evoke is the only thing that prevent me to remove him.

I wanna try Clever Impersonator or something against PW. I also wanna 3 Primal Order in the sideboard, i've really missed them.

[Echelon]

I find it funny that noone in this thread thinks of the "We've got so much mana, yet we do so little with it" problem as a fine reason to run some more mana intensive stuff.

Like, dare I say, the GSZ/Fierce Empath + assorted good stuff/Diabolic Intent setup. Does great things for consistency, allows you to run and tutor non-green bombs and works wonderfully with silver bullets from the SB.

This is what I'm currently running:
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman

4 Diabolic Intent
3 Green Sun’s Zenith
2 Fierce Empath
1 Eternal Witness

4 Summoner’s Egg
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Karador, Ghost Chieftain

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed

1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
2 Plains
3 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard
1 Blazing Archon
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Rest in Peace
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Carpet of Flowers
4 Duress

The most important part here are the Diabolic Intents and GSZ's. They allow for so much consistency (for instance, I usually cast between 3 and 4 Path to Exile per game on average). With this build you usually either grind your opponent out until you can go for a "combo turn" where you resolve and sacrifice an Egg to cheat in a fattie, or go so long that you can actually hardcast a fattie (most often Elesh Norn, but I've pretty much hardcast everything except for Emrakul by now). Basically, the game typically boils down to "kill stuff, resolve Tasigur, kill more stuff (in the meantime, your "combo" assembles naturally or via tutors), resolve an Egg or a fattie, turn the game around and win". You do have to treat everything like it's made of glass, though. Keep thinking "does my opponent have an answer for this? What do I have to overcome to safely resolve this?". Since you'll be so balls deep into everything you cast, one mistake can be your last (certainly has been for me. Going for Emrakul over Elesh Norn only to die on the backswing, forgetting my opponent has a StP in hand, that kind of stuff). Karador is a card you want to hold onto for as long as you can, resolving that bastard in the late game lets you overcome your opponent in just a couple of turns. When combined with Eternal Witness, it's just the nuts.

That being said, every now and again you'll have the godhand and the right MU to play it against, allowing you to drop Emrakul/whatever on turn 2, protected by a Cabal Therapy. I've only done it a couple of times, but it's just so incredibly funny when it happens.

[Arianrhod]

There are reasons my lists tend to be more bomb-heavy than most peoples' in here.

[Viridia]

It's been a while since i've been here and played a proper tournament, however i decided to get my deck up to date again. I've been playing BUG mostly (no pod), but i'm not sure what to make of it atm. Are the Pod lists performing best right now? Seem to see quite some of those flying around the thread.

[Brael]

It's been a while since i've been here and played a proper tournament, however i decided to get my deck up to date again. I've been playing BUG mostly (no pod), but i'm not sure what to make of it atm. Are the Pod lists performing best right now? Seem to see quite some of those flying around the thread.

I don't think many play the Pod variant. I had gotten off of the idea due to Dig Through Time but with that banned I'm probably going back to Pod, the only issue is that it often feels so slow to win games as it sits there and tries to grind out value.

[Ricardio]

I put together punishing jund fit on mtgo and I have been pretty happy.

I don't understand why everyone is staying away from it but I find it to be exceptionally strong.

I played against a shard less player and ran him over like a squirrel in the street.

It is my belief that junk players want their rhino and sfm but big players want their blue. This isn't a blue deck.

This deck is vet, green sun, therapy and the pilot against the world.

#jundtillidie

[Memories of the Time]

Because BGR doesn't have hatebears or counter, and you can't win against combo only with discards and Slaughter Games mostly

[Tom4ik]

Alright, good luck Ricardio

[Echelon]

Well... This deck is mostly a platform to build upon, so it's more like "This platform + whatever tickles your fancy and the pilot against the world.". Heck, I've even had a number of decent finishes in the DTT era with that Eggs list. That's what I like about this deck.

[sdematt]

I don't think there's anything wrong with Jund, not at all. But, the main reason you play that deck is Punishing Fires. But, really, what else do you have? Huntmaster is basically your red threat, but otherwise, you're back on Stormbreath or boring stuff like Thragtusk? Punishing Fire control decks are obviously going to be good against all the midrange decks, but recall that Rhino is going to give you a bunch of reach as well.

Post up your most recent Jund list, Richardo and let us take a look. Maybe we can improve :)

-Matt

[Moroklumpen]

My meta is flooded with Miracles; in the last two tournaments I played against it two rounds out of four. I've had some success against it with 4c Loam, but the matches keep going to time and I want something with more closing power. Is there a Nic Fit build you guys can recommend that tussles favorably with Miracles without being glacially slow?

[Echelon]

Just try to speed up your own game a bit more, and mayhaps ask your Miracles opponent to pick up the pace a bit too. Some Miracles players are just so friggin' slow.

That being said, the standard cookie cutter Rhino-to-the-face list is about as aggressive as it gets. The plan basically is ramp some mana, disrupt some stuff, drop a threat and smash face while going over the top of all the smaller stuff your opponents drop. Deed is wonderful for clearing tokens, so that'll help vs. Miracles.

[Moroklumpen]

Well yes, but some matchups can take forever even when played at a decent pace, and I'd like to take control of as many variables as possible. Also, I usually judge the tournaments, and I really like to finish my rounds early when I judge. In any case, I've enjoyed playing Nic Fit earlier, and would like to take it for another spin, especially if someone could point me towards a build that can beat Miracles fairly consistently.

Aw heck, maybe I'll just go back to playing Dredge.

[Echelon]

Manaless Dredge has a surprisingly good MU vs. Miracles.

With that being said, most decks (including Nic Fit) will probably be 50/50 vs. Miracles. That's exactly what makes Miracles such an incredibly powerful deck.

[Tom4ik]

I went with a Bug nicfit deck last night. I went 3-0-1 the hard way (no intentional draw) which meant I had to stay at the shop pretty late but left with cash so oh well.
I played against enchantress rd 1 which I crushed because decay, snap decay and deed wreck house. Never found my notion thief in game 2 but I did end up deluging for 7 life because he played a Dromaka (sp?) which is some standard dragonlord that seemed beefy.

I then played against dnt on camera (the meadery for those that twitch) and royally fucked game 1 though I really just never found deed after all his cards were protected by a mom. Game 2/3 I just did what this deck should do against dnt and blew his board away a few times.

Round 3 I drew with miracles. I won game 1 super fast. Then I bricked on green for a long time in game 2 and should have scooped but I had 2 CTP and a hand full of decays and a grip. I ended up landing jace and then getting green so even though the entire game I was slightly behind I felt I had a chance. I ended up losing and we had 1 min left.

I played against another miracles player who was 2-1 while I was 2-0-1 so I just dreamcrushed. Early discard and then a Jace. They are very unprepared to deal with early jace. They basically have judgement and a few pyros (maybe not even game 1 now) so I brainstorm until I have 7 cards and then fateseal for the win both games.


I played 2 painful truths last night. I was impressed. I ran 2 thragtusk main along with a thrun and 3rd snap caster. I dropped lily from the main. Truth was VERY real. It is a 3 for 1 that is a lot less situational than visions. I do think you want rhino, bskull or other lifegain readily available but I think this is an actual playable draw engine. So draw 3 is a good effect who knew right? I ran 2 but have 3 snap casters.

[venice]

I went with a Bug nicfit deck last night. I went 3-0-1 the hard way (no intentional draw) which meant I had to stay at the shop pretty late but left with cash so oh well.
I played against enchantress rd 1 which I crushed because decay, snap decay and deed wreck house. Never found my notion thief in game 2 but I did end up deluging for 7 life because he played a Dromaka (sp?) which is some standard dragonlord that seemed beefy.

I then played against dnt on camera (the meadery for those that twitch) and royally fucked game 1 though I really just never found deed after all his cards were protected by a mom. Game 2/3 I just did what this deck should do against dnt and blew his board away a few times.

Round 3 I drew with miracles. I won game 1 super fast. Then I bricked on green for a long time in game 2 and should have scooped but I had 2 CTP and a hand full of decays and a grip. I ended up landing jace and then getting green so even though the entire game I was slightly behind I felt I had a chance. I ended up losing and we had 1 min left.

I played against another miracles player who was 2-1 while I was 2-0-1 so I just dreamcrushed. Early discard and then a Jace. They are very unprepared to deal with early jace. They basically have judgement and a few pyros (maybe not even game 1 now) so I brainstorm until I have 7 cards and then fateseal for the win both games.


I played 2 painful truths last night. I was impressed. I ran 2 thragtusk main along with a thrun and 3rd snap caster. I dropped lily from the main. Truth was VERY real. It is a 3 for 1 that is a lot less situational than visions. I do think you want rhino, bskull or other lifegain readily available but I think this is an actual playable draw engine. So draw 3 is a good effect who knew right? I ran 2 but have 3 snap casters.

Sounds like an interesting take on a BUG list! Mind posting your list?

[Echelon]

Seems logical. AnyFit pretty much equals goodStuff.dec and drawing 3 cards of goodStuff never seems bad.

Maybe we can come up with a list that runs the full set in our standard colours. Would allow us to use DRS, Scavenging Ooze, Kitchen Finks, Siege Rhino, Thragtusk and mayhaps Dragonlord Dromoka as curve topper.

22 land, 4 GSZ, 4 CT and 4 Painful Truths is 34 cards.

4/5 spot removal & 2/3 Deeds equals 41 cards.
4 Vets and 3 DRS make 48.

Ooze makes 49. Kitchen Finks as 3 CMC life buffer is 50, Thragtusk 51, Sigarda is 52, Dromoka 53. Add in 3 Siege Rhino and 1 Eternal Witness and we've almost got a deck. 3 slots left for extra removal/land 23/whatever.

[Themucher]

I put together punishing jund fit on mtgo and I have been pretty happy.

I don't understand why everyone is staying away from it but I find it to be exceptionally strong.

I played against a shard less player and ran him over like a squirrel in the street.

It is my belief that junk players want their rhino and sfm but big players want their blue. This isn't a blue deck.

This deck is vet, green sun, therapy and the pilot against the world.

#jundtillidie

I am currently working on updating my jund list for the new meta as well. Punishing fire is just such a beating against so many decks that I feel it is a great reason to be playing jund.

As far as matchups go combo is our biggest weakness, however red does offer a real good card in ruric thar that no combo deck can beat. I have found that disrupting their early game and gsz for ruric thar is usually game.

I will post the list that I have so far when I get home.

[Echelon]

As far as matchups go combo is our biggest weakness, however red does offer a real good card in ruric thar that no combo deck can beat. I have found that disrupting their early game and gsz for ruric thar is usually game.

I will post the list that I have so far when I get home.

As an Elves! pilot I can tell you that the Natural Order into Ruric Thar plan is too slow more often then not. How the hell can you think that GSZ'ing for 7 mana in total is a good and foolproof way of beating decks that try to win on turns 1-3 whilst you board out part of your ramp and don't run Cradles+20 mana dorks..?

[Themucher]

As an Elves! pilot I can tell you that the Natural Order into Ruric Thar plan is too slow more often then not. How the hell can you think that GSZ'ing for 7 mana in total is a good and foolproof way of beating decks that try to win on turns 1-3 whilst you board out part of your ramp and don't run Cradles+20 mana dorks..?

I didn't say I would do it fast, or that it was foolproof. But most combo decks don't try turn 1/2 usually turn 3 is the earliest for competitive combo decks. And I can cast ruric thar as early as turn 3. Also having cabal therapy cast and flashbacked is very strong distribution. Any deck that tries to go off with the graveyard can be stopped by drs, which I pack 4 of now, otherwise just little luck game one with lots of sideboard hate game 2/3 because I set my sideboard to shore up those matchups

[Arianrhod]

Well yes, but some matchups can take forever even when played at a decent pace, and I'd like to take control of as many variables as possible. Also, I usually judge the tournaments, and I really like to finish my rounds early when I judge. In any case, I've enjoyed playing Nic Fit earlier, and would like to take it for another spin, especially if someone could point me towards a build that can beat Miracles fairly consistently.

Aw heck, maybe I'll just go back to playing Dredge.

Play at least 2 Tsunami and 2 Krosan Grip in your sideboard. The more planeswalkers you run, the better you'll fare as well. Don't be afraid to Decay Tops in response to fetches, try to let a Deed sit in play, Slaughter Games on Jace TMS if you're either in //or splashing out of the board// red.

Probably the most important thing about miracles, as well as the most challenging, is knowing when you're actually just dead and conceding for time appropriately. Miracles generally kills you 4-5 turns before it can -actually- kill, and 4-5 lategame turns of Nic Fit vs Miracles can easily be 5-10 minutes off the clock -- basically the entire early phase of the next game.

[Tom4ik]

The bug list I played:

2 underground sea
1 tropical island
2 bayou
2 island
2 swamp
1 forest
4 polluted delta
2 verdant catacombs
2 misty rainforest
1 volrath's stronghold
2 creeping tarpit

4 brainstorm
4 gitaxian probe
4 cabal therapy
4 force of will
3 abrupt decay
2 pernicious deed
2 painful truths

3 snapcaster mage
4 veteran explorer
1 thrun, the last troll
2 thragtusk
2 baleful strix

3 jace, the mind sculptor

I believe that is 60, if im off maybe another strix.

SB
2 Thoughtseize
2 surgical extraction
2 liliana of the veil
1 sensei divining top
1 scavenging ooze
1 notion thief
1 abrupt decay
1 toxic deluge
1 maelstrom pulse
1 krosan grip
1 grave titan
1 glen elendra archmage.


I am not totally happy with the list but painful truths was actually really good so I may tinker with this deck. I do not think I want thrun main. I am also considering putting a bug midrange deck together that runs Drs and truth because that also seems good. If you can overcome the lifeloss issue I think this card is underestimated right now. There is not a better rate for draw 3 than 3 mana. visions sort of but that incurs a large cost to doing so. standstill but I am not a fan of that card in todays legacy.

[tilzinger]

Here is the video feed, starts 15 minutes in. http://www.twitch.tv/themeadery/v/19616459 They labeled you as BUG Control :rolleyes:

Holy crap I need to find time to get down there on a Wednesday night.

[jbone2016]

Here is the video feed, starts 15 minutes in. http://www.twitch.tv/themeadery/v/19616459 They labeled you as BUG Control :rolleyes:

Holy crap I need to find time to get down there on a Wednesday night.

I really should start going too. I need to rhino more people. :)

[Themucher]

This is my current jund list, it's definitely a work in progress depending on what the expected meta will be at Gp Seattle. I do appreciate any comments and feedback as long as its constructive.

Creature (13)
1 Broodmate Dragon
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Veteran Explorer

Enchantment (1)
1 Pernicious Deed

Instant (7)
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Punishing Fire

Planeswalker (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil

Sorcery (13)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Slaughter Games

Land (23)
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wooded Foothills


Sideboard

3 Extirpate
1 Golgari Charm
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Thoughtseize
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

[Plm]

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/12105770_1131203096908673_7289850544517593641_n.jpg?oh=ad2ad6e94ee96b14757a862316eb8b0d&oe=568DA913

:laugh:

Anyway, my current list :

3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Siege Rhino
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte


4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Path to Exile
1 Toxic Deluge

1 Sylvan Library
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Savannah
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Taiga





SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Containment Priest

[Ganfar]

I think Broodmate Dragon is better then Titan if you don't have kessig wolfrun. If you run Jund nic-fit.

Broodmate has
more power(8)
Has flying and can block fliped delver and vendlion
Are two creture so the oppment needs to have two removels or a sweeper to kill both.

The only pro with Titan it ramps and take out lands from the deck but if you can cast Titan you can't have mana issues.

[Ganfar]

This is my current jund list, it's definitely a work in progress depending on what the expected meta will be at Gp Seattle. I do appreciate any comments and feedback as long as its constructive.

Creature (13)
1 Broodmate Dragon
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Veteran Explorer

Enchantment (1)
1 Pernicious Deed

Instant (7)
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Punishing Fire

Planeswalker (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil

Sorcery (13)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Slaughter Games

Land (23)
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wooded Foothills


Sideboard

3 Extirpate
1 Golgari Charm
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Thoughtseize
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
I would remove a sex-drop for one more huntmaster. Lower the mana curve and huntermaster is a really good card.

[Themucher]

I would remove a sex-drop for one more huntmaster. Lower the mana curve and huntermaster is a really good card.

I do agree hunter is a really good card, but the 6 drops are even more powerful. Titan grabs stronghold or wolfrun, dragon is great against Liliana and jace besides all the other flyers. And ruric thar beats combo and every delver deck with ease.

[Ricardio]

Creature (15)
1 Broodmate Dragon
2 Death Rite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
2 Hunt Master of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Thragtusk
1 thrun
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 courser
4 Veteran Explorer

Enchantment (3)
3 Pernicious Deed

Instant (6)
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire

Planeswalker (2)
1 vraska
1 garruk, primal hunter

Sorcery (9)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Artifact (2)
2 sensei top

Land (23)
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
3 Bloodstained mire
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wooded Foothills


Sideboard

2 surgical
1 Golgari Charm
1 krosan Grip
2 Hymn to tourach
2 duress
1 chains of Mephistopheles
1 Dryad militant
1 sylvan library
2 slaughter games
2 carpet of flowers

Sb can always use work. I am lily-less because they are incredibly expensive online and I am not made of money so I made do. Hunt master is a house. Duress over seize because burn is here and there online. Courser has been alright but hurts against goyf. Please feel free to criticize or ask questions. I do need to get the 4 grove, bills come first. Sorry.

[Themucher]

Creature (15)
1 Broodmate Dragon
2 Death Rite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
2 Hunt Master of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Thragtusk
1 thrun
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 courser
4 Veteran Explorer

Enchantment (3)
3 Pernicious Deed

Instant (6)
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire

Planeswalker (2)
1 vraska
1 garruk, primal hunter

Sorcery (9)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Artifact (2)
2 sensei top

Land (23)
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
3 Bloodstained mire
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wooded Foothills


Sideboard

2 surgical
1 Golgari Charm
1 krosan Grip
2 Hymn to tourach
2 duress
1 chains of Mephistopheles
1 Dryad militant
1 sylvan library
2 slaughter games
2 carpet of flowers

Sb can always use work. I am lily-less because they are incredibly expensive online and I am not made of money so I made do. Hunt master is a house. Duress over seize because burn is here and there online. Courser has been alright but hurts against goyf. Please feel free to criticize or ask questions. I do need to get the 4 grove, bills come first. Sorry.

I think you need to drop a creature or 2. Jund is much better at controlling when you hand isn't all creatures. I used to run courser, and found it very lackluster. Also personal choice but I would move either thrun or thragtusk to the SB. If your deck is too top heavy you won't make it their without vet, which will happen from time to time.

[Tom4ik]

@Tilzinger - I usually get labeled Bug control as most of the decks I play fall into that bucket so I am sure its just habit.

@jund list-
Drop courser, 2nd huntmaster and the broodmate. Your curve is waaaay to high on creatures. I am also not a fan of the Drs in the jund deck do to space issues. You will be blowing deed more often with jund than any other color.

Do not run vraska, that card is terrible really, I do like the garruk as it is the best walker in the jund colors for this deck (in the creature maker role)

You need lilys. Like 2 minimum better 3. I ran 3 when I played punishing fit. Setting pfire and grove up with lily is the main draw to this color combo. This deck also folds to combo but the chance at hitting with a double therapy into lily gives you some chance at stealing the first game which is significant for me.

For the sb I would run reb over carpet. I am not a fan carpet in punishing fire. You are not ramping in the matchups you want carpet but playing a control deck.

[Ricardio]

I can see cutting courser but the others are fine for me right now.
Vraska has been great. She is usually a vindicate and then catches bolt.
Lily is over 104 tickets each on mtgo, not willing to dedicate that much online, sorry.
I have never been a fan of red blast in this deck but I will try it since it seems good online.
I like carpet against miracle and other decks of the sort where explorer isn't as one sided.

I appreciate the criticism. Don't take my rebuttal as stubborn ignorance. I prefer to stick with things and learn.

I want to iron out the main and shake up the sb.

Lily is incredible in this deck. I played 3 when I had it irl. I CANNOT justify 315$ for electronic Lily's.
I know it limits the deck and takes some amount of credit from me but that is life.

I look forward to hearing more from you all.

Thanks again!

[Themucher]

I can see cutting courser but the others are fine for me right now.
Vraska has been great. She is usually a vindicate and then catches bolt.
Lily is over 104 tickets each on mtgo, not willing to dedicate that much online, sorry.
I have never been a fan of red blast in this deck but I will try it since it seems good online.
I like carpet against miracle and other decks of the sort where explorer isn't as one sided.

I appreciate the criticism. Don't take my rebuttal as stubborn ignorance. I prefer to stick with things and learn.

I want to iron out the main and shake up the sb.

Lily is incredible in this deck. I played 3 when I had it irl. I CANNOT justify 315$ for electronic Lily's.
I know it limits the deck and takes some amount of credit from me but that is life.

I look forward to hearing more from you all.

Thanks again!
Not to be picky but vraska is far from vindicate as she hits non lands, which is closer to maelstrom pulse without the obliterating token bonus.
I have tried her and found that she seems really powerful while I was playing her, I never regretted taking her out of my 75 because I never felt I needed her.

I have tried carpet against miracles and found it to be a dead card half the time because of how much easy it is to make your land drops, the ramp is nice but we don't want to race miracles becuase then we fall to terminus. We can grind them out of resources as a jund deck.

[Bobmans]

Punishing Fire NicFit:

4x DRS and Vraska. Just because i can.

main
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Punishing Fire
1 Kolaghan's Command

3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vraska the Unseen

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

Sideboard
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Slaughter Games
2 Red Elemetal Blast
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle

[sdematt]

Went X-1 in our weekly, losing only to Infect (stupid Inkmoth god hand...)

4 Siege Rhino
3 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
15

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths
1 Sylvan Library
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
15

2 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
9

2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
22

2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Tsunami
2 Krosan Grip
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Cranial Extraction
3 Thoughtseize

For changes, sometimes, I missed Recurring Nightmare. I think I'll sub Qasali Pridemage for Rec Sage, since having instant speed destruction would have stopped Inkmoth many times. Revoker was excellent. Elspeth was very good. Due to some bad luck, I wasn't super explosive, I was just grindy with my Veterans. I didn't get any crazy turn 2 Rhinos or anything, just solid grinding. I think I'll be trying the SFM build and see where I want to go from here. Rhino is a crazy big threat, but I did have a bit of trouble with Angler (sometimes). Safekeeper was the straight nutter butters.

-Matt

[Plm]

@ matt : how were the painful truth ?

I like the idea of safekeeper, but maybe in the sideboard against white decks (rhino survives non white removal), mostly because my list is tight as it is (playing 4 rhino and stoneforge).

About substituting quasali for rec sage, I've made the switch but for me it was a way to have a 5/6 rhino so I could ignore opposing Goyf/Tasigur and race some zombie fish. Also, while it cost the same amount of mana in total, 3+1 is much flexible than 4 and let you play around daze and spell pierce.

The body being a lot bigger is relevant because I think that rhino fit is the most agro version of nic fit .

Anyway, for those playing stoneforge and drs, do you skip deed altogether ?
If yes why nobody is arboring some dryad?
I've found that having the 4 zenith count as acceleration alongside the drs and the explorers ensure a smooth early game and arbor provides a surprise equipment carrier of a fetch or protect against liliana.

[pettdan]

I have an old build with Dryad, equipment and Sylvan and no deeds. I'll repost it since it's an example of a deedless dryad list. And it seems interesting as an experimental build. Some meta choices have become irrelevant, the Persecutions should be Paths.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=855246&viewfull=1#post855246

[Tom4ik]

While painful truths is only harmonize for 1 less mana I think that is a big deal. It goes from a card that is really only online with a vet dying to a card playable even turn 2 with a Drs. I would recommend 2 in most lists.

@jund lists- If people want to play things like vraska then why ask for feedback? That card is not legacy playable unless your entire meta is U/w miracles and blade decks. If people have budget concerns that is understandable but at some point the entire deck changes. punishing fire is worth playing not really because it kills little guys (deed and decay already do that) its that in combo with lily. Running 3-4 vets and another 4 Drs in a control deck is waaaaay to many 1 mana dorks. you will draw poorly as the game goes forward which is also why carpet is not good. carpet is a card that scapeshift and maybe junk can play due to the way those games play out. Jund is control deck.