September 2014 Bannings

[kirkusjones]

So it looks like Braids, Rofellos and Erayo have gotten the boot. Kokusho and Metalworker are now legal again. Thoughts?

[Amon Amarth]

The cards that left were pretty narrow so it doesn't really affect most decks. It's nice to play with Metalworker again though it is narrow as well. I like the idea of using Kokusho as the general of a silly black deck. Still, mostly ambivalent.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

The cards that left were pretty narrow so it doesn't really affect most decks. It's nice to play with Metalworker again though it is narrow as well. I like the idea of using Kokusho as the general of a silly black deck. Still, mostly ambivalent.

I like the idea of interchangeable generals duo Kokusho-Skithiryx. Gonna build it, maybe. Shame that there are very few beautiful black cards. I mean Perish is one, but yeah, it's more narrow then the narrowest of Metalworkers...

[Aggro_zombies]

Perish is a workable metagame card. I maindecked Eastern Paladin in my Phyrexian theme deck a couple years ago because my meta was more green than an environmentalist movement.

I'm not going to cry over the loss of Braids or Erayo since they tended to be incredibly un-fun even when they weren't generals. I am slightly miffed that Rofellos is gone but given their desire to consolidate the lists I would rather have him banned everywhere than legal as a general. What I don't understand is their desire to consolidate the lists. There's not a ton of mental overhead involved in remembering that some cards are banned-banned and some cards are just banned as commanders, and the banned list has enough nonsensical stuff on it that you're going to have to look it up and memorize it regardless. My guess is that they wanted to streamline the lists so they can feed one banned list into MTGO since that program is barely functional on its best days and anything that can make its life easier might just lead to a performance update at some point in the indeterminate future.

[Offler]

So it looks like Braids, Rofellos and Erayo have gotten the boot. Kokusho and Metalworker are now legal again. Thoughts?

Braids, Cabal minion
Have seen him in normal play. Even without any interaction (besides tokens) it was pretty strong and when hit the table and wasnt immediatelly removed it allowed that player to win.

Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary / Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
I perfectly understand why he was banned as a commander, but I do not understand why to make complete ban. Anyways it seems that "banned as commander" was completely abandoned. In this case Erayo looks as ever annoying card in multiplayer, and the main reason why i never played it in EDH deck.

Metal Worker
Every EDH game shall look like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPuI_pbCYOI

If this is unbanned, why is banned Tolarian academy? Seriously, this is a mistake, which will take Eldrazi decks on rampage...

Kokusho, the Evening star
Still can be sacrificed and reanimated in a combo, now even as a commander...

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Metal Worker
Every EDH game shall look like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPuI_pbCYOI

If this is unbanned, why is banned Tolarian academy? Seriously, this is a mistake, which will take Eldrazi decks on rampage...


It's much harder to do completely busted things with Metalworker as you have to wait a turn and gets worse the more you use it (presumably your going to play out the cards you reveal), whereas Tolarian Academy gets better as your going to be playing out more artifacts with it, leading to more blue mana to cast your consecrated sphinx.

[Offler]

We have in our meta deck, with Eldrazi as a commander.

Kozilek, Butcher of Truth.

I know that Tolarian Academy is broken, but Metalworker enables one very specific deck all based on artifacts. Kozilek is used "for drawing cards". Its strong deck even withou metalworker, but now its really Tier 1...

[apple713]

as long as hermit druid does not make the banned list these have little impact on the competitive meta. Drawing into any of these cards or finding a way to abuse them is not likely any faster than current competitive decks are doing with the existing cards.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Losing Rofellos is a small blow to my mono-green deck. It wasn't integral or anything, but it was my go-to early tutoring target. Ah well. I'm not sure how to replace him yet... :(

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Losing Rofellos is a small blow to my mono-green deck. It wasn't integral or anything, but it was my go-to early tutoring target. Ah well. I'm not sure how to replace him yet... :(

Elvish Aberration isn't the answer you looked for, true?

So they're doing the same mistake that pestered Type 1,5 back in years of old, Why the lists cannot be separated, I don't get it. While something like Braids might be too much of a pain even as a mere non-general, there's no need to be extremely strict about the cards.
Idk, but this looks like a strange move...

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Elvish Aberration isn't the answer you looked for, true?





Nah, but thanks. Too expensive (it's Nylea, not an Omnath/Asuza deck!). I rejigged things to go for a combination of Nykthos, Expedition Map, Lotus Cobra, and Karametra's Acolyte. Probably overkill, but re-balancing will take some time anyway. Too bad, I think it was finally pretty optimal before the ban!

[Aggro_zombies]

[cards]Kokusho, the Evening star
Still can be sacrificed and reanimated in a combo, now even as a commander...
The funny thing is, I don't think Kokusho is the best at anything it does. As a Drain Life combo, it's probably less reliable than amassing a bunch of mana and casting Exsanguinate, or casting a bunch of permanents and recurring Gray Merchant. As a Voltron general, it's pretty clearly worse than Skittles. As the head of a control deck, it's competing with Skittles (fast kills), Xiahou Dun (card advantage), and Erebos (ditto).

I think the best bet for Kokusho is at the head of a control deck with a heavy Voltron element. You can suit up your general and beat down with an efficient body that you can sacrifice as needed to boost your life total. Because you're winning through traditional damage, you're less vulnerable to a well-timed tuck or Control Magic effect on your general, or some other way to lock it down.

[Offler]

I was thinking of less complicated and much more straightforward usage.

Like here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20395-EDH-Anowon-The-ruin-sage

This is deck I use when I want to introduce new players to EDH as format, just to explain principles and some basics. In this case I was thinking to play Kokusho only to hardcast him, sacrifice, reanimate and repeat... It contains some really strong interactions, but its very vulnerable at all. But yes, it contains amassing a lot of mana and cast Exsanguinate.


This kind of deck was most common at time when we started to play german Highlander (just imagine R, W and G variations, main idea was same). Aggros and midranges were very popular, until we start to play combo-controls. (Then guy who was making tournaments decided to shorten rounds from 1 hour to 45 minutes, stating that "controls will be too strong".)

In my meta it means that Kokusho will be splashed anywhere, while most people will find a way how to abuse him in at least one infinite combo.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Nah, but thanks. Too expensive (it's Nylea, not an Omnath/Asuza deck!).

Yeah, it's too expensive. I played it in GWB where I needed fixation andsearch of duals, thus occasionaly having it return from gy via Living Death or even Genesis when there was noting else to do. But it still sucks. Sems like some elvish druid will be your best bet. Fyndhorn Elder? Not exactly, right?

[TsumiBand]

Argh, I gotta replace Braids in Ghost Council of Orzhova :(

I can't see Kokusho not breaking eventually but I guess le bontemps roulez until then.

[Davran]

Eh, I'm indifferent to these changes.

I think Metalworker could have come off the list a long time ago, but whatever. Sad that I didn't have the foresight to pick one up to mess around with before all the MTGStocks speculators bought in, but I guess it'll probably fall again.

Rofellos is not really a ban-worthy card if you ask me, but that hasn't stopped the RC before. I guess if the decision was between Rofellos as a commander or not at all, then not at all was the right call...but still...

Erayo won't be missed, mostly because no one around here actually played it anyway. I guess Edric decks got a little worse?

Braids is probably the most surprising. I wasn't playing the format when she was allowed as a commander...but honestly I don't really see the problem with it in a world where you have stuff like Oloro that you don't even need to cast.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Braids is probably the most surprising. I wasn't playing the format when she was allowed as a commander...but honestly I don't really see the problem with it in a world where you have stuff like Oloro that you don't even need to cast.
I also haven't had the displeasure of playing against a Braids, Cabal Minion deck while she was legal as a commander.

My understanding is that a typical game against Braids consisted of something like:
Turn 1: Swamp, Fast Mana (Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, Lotus Petal, whatever...), Bitterblossom
Turn 2: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Braids

It seems difficult to get this board position on turn 2 always, but if you build the deck towards it I could see it happening by turn 3 or 4 every game. Especially if you always have access to play Braids from the command zone.

[Davran]

I also haven't had the displeasure of playing against a Braids, Cabal Minion deck while she was legal as a commander.

My understanding is that a typical game against Braids consisted of something like:
Turn 1: Swamp, Fast Mana (Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, Lotus Petal, whatever...), Bitterblossom
Turn 2: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Braids

It seems difficult to get this board position on turn 2 always, but if you build the deck towards it I could see it happening by turn 3 or 4 every game. Especially if you always have access to play Braids from the command zone.

Yeah, I can see how that would be oppressive. To be honest though, if you're playing in the kind of meta where Mana Crypt, Imperial Seal, Grim Tutor and whatever other high-dollar support cards are needed to make that line a reality on a consistent basis are the norm I'm willing to bet that your deck is similarly degenerate. It seems to me like there are plenty of cards that punish an all-in start like that and then run you over while you're trying to get back in the game with your empty hand...but who knows.

[Offler]

Yeah, I can see how that would be oppressive. To be honest though, if you're playing in the kind of meta where Mana Crypt, Imperial Seal, Grim Tutor and whatever other high-dollar support cards are needed to make that line a reality on a consistent basis are the norm I'm willing to bet that your deck is similarly degenerate. It seems to me like there are plenty of cards that punish an all-in start like that and then run you over while you're trying to get back in the game with your empty hand...but who knows.

This is exactly where casual play ends, and starts competetive, but its not based only on high dollar cards.

Usually this kind of play is supported by low mana artifacts. This specific group of cards contain:
Mox diamond
Chrome mox (there are too many of judge rewards in circulation here, so its pretty cheap)
Lotus petal (rarely)
Lion's Eye diamond
Mana crypt
Mana vault
Mox opal - interesting in colorless EDH decks.
Sol ring
Everflowing chalice
Lotus bloom

Even when dropped and not sacrified, they are used for metalcraft or Kuldotha Forgemaster.

And any mana stone up to cmc 2, so it can be dropped on first maybe secod turn.
Coldsteel heart
Fellwar stone
Fractured powerstone
Mind stone
Prismatic lens
Sphere of the suns
Star compass
Talismans or Myrs if legal. Of course untapped, and without summ sickness are more used.


Other cards with this potential:
Kuldotha forgemaster - Leads to Blightsteel colossus, or similar Darksteel Colossus. Sometimes supported by artifact lands.
Dark ritual If black is allowed
Basalt monolith
Grim monolith

Metalworker - now legal. Just check the list above, and tell me... how much broken is it when compared to Tolarian Academy?

Colorless cards on this list can be splashed virtually anywhere, allowing turbo ramp in first and second turn. On third or fourth you can drop even eldrazi, while Annihilation takes care of other players - usually consuming the lands. Blightsteel colossus simply kills the player on first swing.

At that point when I saw all this in same decklist for one eldrazi deck I realized how broken, can some metagames be. Then I realized that the guy was playing duel commander and it started to make sense (just cut down cards which are banned there). But when he was playing in group of 4 players, he was still able to win, simply because there is need to remove Kuldotha Forgemaster and Blightsteel colossus too soon since game starts.

[Davran]

This is exactly where casual play ends, and starts competitive, but its not based only on high dollar cards.

Personally, I think a large part of the need for any sort of banlist has more to do with poor deckbuilding and bad play decisions (e.g. poor threat assessment) than the power level of any given card, but I guess that's the "spike" in me talking. Of course there are still things that aren't particularly fair or balanced (e.g. Yawgmoth's Bargain, Balance) that warrant inclusion, but ultimately this is a casual format. I fully support people playing the decks they want to play (banned cards or otherwise) so long as they understand that there are social considerations at play too. Your turbo-eldrazi pile is neat, and it's fun to watch you try and get there, but you should definitely have a second deck that's a little more "fair" for the next game.

Locally, we've been playing with out any sort of formal banlist for a while now. The interesting thing is that despite this change, no one has even contemplated playing things like Biorythm.dek even though it's technically "legal". I like to think it's because the local players have realized that the sort of deck that wants Biorythm isn't really fun for anyone, so why bother building it?

[Offler]

Personally, I think a large part of the need for any sort of banlist has more to do with poor deckbuilding and bad play decisions (e.g. poor threat assessment) than the power level of any given card, but I guess that's the "spike" in me talking. Of course there are still things that aren't particularly fair or balanced (e.g. Yawgmoth's Bargain, Balance) that warrant inclusion, but ultimately this is a casual format.

Its not my Turbo-Eldrazi.

The problem became too obvious when I came to the local club. You know my blue Teferi deck - I consider it to be balanced between casual and power. Owner of the Turbo-Eldrazi EDH already make some show with his deck in 1 vs 1 play, and guy from the club became totally scared of mixing casual and PRO players. Since I wanted to make some EDH tournaments (Not Duel commander) he came to me and start arguing that we need to change banlist, or to have different sort of limitation.

Suddenly my blue deck became "blacklisted" because its using combos, while the turbo-eldrazi was not "blacklisted" due this reason simply because "its not combo". According to the list you can imagine power level of the deck. This was just the situation I did not want to see.

When I told him that 4 FFA multiplayer simply does not work like this, that "biggest threat" is focused on, he didnt listened. Every guy involved in some variation of commander with exception of me argued, that "politics" should not be part of play, only deck and playing should matter. Then I realized that I am in wrong place.

So the main question which remained:

How to make EDH tournament, with current rules, banlists, 4 players FFA, with entry fee and prizes and still remain casual?

a) Change banlist and rules - I am strongly against it
b) Drop casual, make tournament for competetive - That actually happened this month.

What I hear from other playgroups, everything is fine with current rules and banlists, because people understand the casual fun behind politics. However not our case.

[Davran]

So the main question which remained:

How to make EDH tournament, with current rules, banlists, 4 players FFA, with entry fee and prizes and still remain casual?

a) Change banlist and rules - I am strongly against it
b) Drop casual, make tournament for competetive - That actually happened this month.

What I hear from other playgroups, everything is fine with current rules and banlists, because people understand the casual fun behind politics. However not our case.

In my opinion, once you've charged an entry fee and are offering prizes, all bets are off in terms of the decks you can expect to show up. If I were going to such an event, I would most definitely put together the strongest and most cohesive deck that I could with little thought to playing "fair". Such a deck would be completely different from the type of stuff I tend to put together for our regular casual EDH nights, and I think that's how everyone should approach the format.

Look at it this way: let's say you're going over to a friends house to play some 60 card casual. Would you show up with your vintage storm deck for turn 2 kills, or would you throw something a little jankier together to at least get some play in? EDH is much the same for me - if I'm paying money for a shot at winning a prize, then I'm going to build the deck to win. If I'm just hanging out with some friends I'm building a deck to have fun first and win every game second.

As for how to fix it, I'm not sure there's a good way to do it. I've heard of the whole points system thing where certain plays gain or lose "points", which are then tallied to determine who the actual winner of the prize is...but other than that i think you're mostly at the mercy of individual opinions on what is and is not "fair".

[Grillo]

In my opinion, once you've charged an entry fee and are offering prizes, all bets are off in terms of the decks you can expect to show up. If I were going to such an event, I would most definitely put together the strongest and most cohesive deck that I could with little thought to playing "fair". Such a deck would be completely different from the type of stuff I tend to put together for our regular casual EDH nights, and I think that's how everyone should approach the format.

This.

I love playing EDH for fun. When I play with my friends I usually take out cards they think are unfair or unfun to play against. I usually play monoW or GW when I play with them.

But if I go to my LGS and I have to pay an entry fee and there are good prizes to be won... I'll just bring my Oona deck and try to win every table asap.

I think most of the ppl here share this approach to the format. For example, when I play friendly matches with Oona at my LGS, people will usually complain about how they hate combo. But when we are playing the weekly tournament, they normally compliment the deck and say it's cool how powerful it is.

[Offler]

Basically I also agree with that, I just got surprised when "turbo-eldrazi guy" took his deck into casual play (probably an attempt to scare casual players).

Result is slight change in meta (Cataclysm and some forms of mass destruction are now tolerated even in casual), however unbanning of Metalworker took that change back. Eldrazi, or Colloses may hit the battlefield on 3rd turn, earlier with luck...

Meta then has to change once more.