[Article]Eternal Europe: Khan's Dangerous Cards

[Norm]

If this becomes the norm, look for an increase in the price of Pyrostatic Pillar and the Pyrostatic Pillar with legs we got in Theros. Sure, cantrip away boss.

That's pretty doubtful.

What we should be looking for is a rise in decks that run Thalia, like Maverick and DNT.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

In my testing with Swiftspear, I often do not hit for more than 1 on the turn I plop it down. But then I can usually hit for 3 on turn 2 and another 3 or 4 on turn 3. It sure as hell shines in the same shell as TC. In fact, after gumshoing with Sneak/Show, Uwr, Uw, and Ur Delver/Burn, I think that Huang's deck is pretty close to what I would play. I like Fireblast in my main as the only major change.

I will say this for TC. It makes subtle demands on your deck that we have not really contended with in the past. The added need for even more cantrips kinda takes you out of three colors. Black can sorta keep up with this, but your threat density still remains low. My next attempt will be to find something in U/b or possibly Ubw. I'm thinking Lingering Souls.

I think the upgrade I could see for that UR Delver list might be to dip into Grixis and replace reactive counter spell disruption (Spell Pierce and Daze) that does not synergize very well with YP or Swiftspear by active disruption like Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy.

I would also run a Misdirection in addition to Force of Will.

[FoolofaTook]

In my testing with Swiftspear, I often do not hit for more than 1 on the turn I plop it down. But then I can usually hit for 3 on turn 2 and another 3 or 4 on turn 3. It sure as hell shines in the same shell as TC. In fact, after gumshoing with Sneak/Show, Uwr, Uw, and Ur Delver/Burn, I think that Huang's deck is pretty close to what I would play. I like Fireblast in my main as the only major change.

I will say this for TC. It makes subtle demands on your deck that we have not really contended with in the past. The added need for even more cantrips kinda takes you out of three colors. Black can sorta keep up with this, but your threat density still remains low. My next attempt will be to find something in U/b or possibly Ubw. I'm thinking Lingering Souls.

Maybe TC will bring Dark Ritual back from the dead in non-combo lists?

T1 - Fetch - Thoughtseize
T2 - Fetch - Dark Ritual - something
T3 - Land - Treasure Cruise?

It kind of takes the sting out of having fast mana or the product of fast mana countered early on. If you're playing discard you even get some protection against that counter or removal taking your fast thingy away before you get to play with it some. Probably unlikely to occur but I miss Dark Ritual a lot.

[FoolofaTook]

That's pretty doubtful.

What we should be looking for is a rise in decks that run Thalia, like Maverick and DNT.

Both of whom will be running 3x+ Spirit of the Labyrinth now. Chains of Mephistopheles is going to be the most expensive sideboard card in history I think.

[TsumiBand]

If this becomes the norm, look for an increase in the price of Pyrostatic Pillar and the Pyrostatic Pillar with legs we got in Theros. Sure, cantrip away boss.

Thalia and Dryad Militant may also want a word with ya. Remove cards from your what-yard? Remove what from your graveyard?

[LOLWut]

Thalia and Dryad Militant may also want a word with ya. Remove cards from your what-yard? Remove what from your graveyard?

For the love of God someone craft Soldier Tribal into something at least semi-playable.

[TsumiBand]

For the love of God someone craft Soldier Tribal into something at least semi-playable.

One of White's bigger oddities is its inability to unite under a single tribe; White and Black both have this problem in spite of having various types to borrow against (you'd think Zombies would be a thing, with Undead Warchief having the price point it does). The fact that its most potent creatures tend not to share critical creature types doesn't have to be a burden but it makes it difficult to coalesce. Thalia is a Human Soldier; Dryad Militant is a Dryad Soldier; Stoneforge Mystic is a Kor Artificer; Mother of Runes is a Human Cleric; and so on. Humans *almost* gets there, but it isn't like you just throw away SFM, right? Yet Kor ain't where it's at either (to say nothing of Artificers, though they are.... 'interesting').

Anyway I don't think Soldiers needs to be a good tribe, just that White Weenie can't shake that whole "aww shucks, I'm just a metagame deck" thing because its niche is always playing guys that make the opponent's life a pain in the dick, and then assemble a large man to end the game (whether it's Geddon + Empyrial Armor, controlling Exalted Angel, having a good beater + lots of Exalted guys, or SFM + a good equip + any dude to punch face).

[ahg113]

Thalia and Dryad Militant may also want a word with ya. Remove cards from your what-yard? Remove what from your graveyard?

I want to like Dryad Militant, I just wish it's "gotcha" hate was one-sided. Kinda like (power levels greatly vary) Blind Obedience, Chancellor of the Annex, Consecrated Sphinx, Cosi's Trickster, Counterbalance, etc. are all one sided.

Why Dryad and Lingering Souls not friends?

[Lord Seth]

Both of whom will be running 3x+ Spirit of the Labyrinth now. Chains of Mephistopheles is going to be the most expensive sideboard card in history I think.I don't think it'll be passing Tabernacle anytime soon.

[Lemnear]

Spirit of the Labyrinth is pointless. The topic remains the same we all had in the Spoiler thread: your opponent cantrips 1-2 times before SotL can come down and therfore can find solutions (even in Response with brainstorm), removes the hatebear and eats the removal cast to draw 3 fresh cards.

[Finn]

Lemnear, the value of Spirit is all about the prevalence of cards in the opponent's deck that have the word "draw" on them. I'm pretty sure the pedigree of Spirit of the Lab is going to go up simply by the virtue of zapping more of the opponent's deck than it used to. And to further push the point, against D+T, are players really going to let a turn 1 Mother stick? How about Thalia? Mystic? Spirit used to be a minor jab while these guys were gut punches. With the direction Treasure Cruise inevitably pushes decks, it will now hose a noticeably larger percentage of those decks and knock the wind out of them more often. I will be playing Spirits in my D+T main, you can be certain of that.

[from Cairo]

Spirit of the Labyrinth is pointless. The topic remains the same we all had in the Spoiler thread: your opponent cantrips 1-2 times before SotL can come down and therfore can find solutions (even in Response with brainstorm), removes the hatebear and eats the removal cast to draw 3 fresh cards.

To say Spirit of the Labyrinth is pointless, or that it hasn't gained relevancy since spoiled in Born of the Gods is incorrect. SotL has definitely gained ground in the metagame as a card combating Treasure Cruise. I agree it wasn't greatly positioned against Brainstorm and Ponder, but if decks are going to be running 12-16 cantrips - most of which being Sorceries - IE they've drawn their 1 card for the turn before first opportunity to cast - the tax effect or nulling of 25% of an opposing tempo strategy can't be shrugged off as pointless. Even after a resolved Ponder and Brainstorm, against opponents with Treasure Cruises and sometimes Gitaxian Probe, Spirit provides a valuable tax. These points completely ignore it's relevance against Griselbrand and Glimpse of Nature/Elvish Visionary; one could easily argue additional pillars of the format.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

Lemnear, the value of Spirit is all about the prevalence of cards in the opponent's deck that have the word "draw" on them. I'm pretty sure the pedigree of Spirit of the Lab is going to go up simply by the virtue of zapping more of the opponent's deck than it used to. And to further push the point, against D+T, are players really going to let a turn 1 Mother stick? How about Thalia? Mystic? Spirit used to be a minor jab while these guys were gut punches. With the direction Treasure Cruise inevitably pushes decks, it will now hose a noticeably larger percentage of those decks and knock the wind out of them more often. I will be playing Spirits in my D+T main, you can be certain of that.


Exactly.

Not running Spirit of the Labyrinth maindeck now that many decks will run 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Gitaxian Probe and 4 Treasure Cruise would be just dumb. Especially since SotL is a relevant body already anyway. Some decks might even take the card draw and cantripping further with Thought Scour/Preordain.

I will also say that Notion Thief is a LOT better now also, especially since the decks benefiting from Treasure Cruise are fair decks, casting Notion Thief becomes a valid thing.

[Zombie]

I'm sad that the introduction of new broken blue cards makes my bunch of little green men suffer splash damage. Again :/

[Purgatory]

I've tried 4 and then tried 3 Treasure Cruise in BUG, and both feels fine. Despite running Goyf/DRS, pitching the entire graveyard for draw 3 is really powerful. Never had any trouble casting it so far, but that's just about a dozen matches in or so. Playing 4 felt like too many just one or two games, since I tend to pitch them to Force of Will early on if I have spares.

The sky ain't falling, as someone said, but these cards will have some impact on the format.

[Lemnear]

Exactly.

Not running Spirit of the Labyrinth maindeck now that many decks will run 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Gitaxian Probe and 4 Treasure Cruise would be just dumb. Especially since SotL is a relevant body already anyway. Some decks might even take the card draw and cantripping further with Thought Scour/Preordain.

I will also say that Notion Thief is a LOT better now also, especially since the decks benefiting from Treasure Cruise are fair decks, casting Notion Thief becomes a valid thing.

I guess Probe is maybe too much space occupied in decks which run a set of TC. I can totally see that the number of removal spells (Forked Bolt,Chain Lightning, Toxic Deluge) will go up compared to actual threats in decks running TC just to keep annoyances like SotL off the table and win the game with 6-10 threats on the back of the massive cardadvantage.

Edit:

To say Spirit of the Labyrinth is pointless, or that it hasn't gained relevancy since spoiled in Born of the Gods is incorrect. SotL has definitely gained ground in the metagame as a card combating Treasure Cruise. I agree it wasn't greatly positioned against Brainstorm and Ponder, but if decks are going to be running 12-16 cantrips - most of which being Sorceries - IE they've drawn their 1 card for the turn before first opportunity to cast - the tax effect or nulling of 25% of an opposing tempo strategy can't be shrugged off as pointless. Even after a resolved Ponder and Brainstorm, against opponents with Treasure Cruises and sometimes Gitaxian Probe, Spirit provides a valuable tax. These points completely ignore it's relevance against Griselbrand and Glimpse of Nature/Elvish Visionary; one could easily argue additional pillars of the format.

Ponder and Preordain can still dig for removal no matter if SotL is on the table and if it's removed and TC is cast it can easily negate the advantage you gained by denying your opponent two cantrip-draws. I dunno if battling 20% of a deck is really worth running a serious number of StoL considering that they can remove it pretty easily.

Don't argue with Griselbrand or Glimpse as the the Demons threat against D&T isn't the draw but the 7/7 lifelinking Body while Elves kill you on the back of Natural Order, Craterhoof or Packmaster. Hell, they can even fetch Reclamation Sage and kill your Spirit and your Equipment too

Edit 2:

I'm sad that the introduction of new broken blue cards makes my bunch of little green men suffer splash damage. Again :/

This one isn't nearly as bad as the Splash hate because of TNN was. If you want to hint at SotL I sure don't have to remind you that D&T is a fine matchup for Elves and that StoL is an easy victim for Sage

[lyracian]

This one isn't nearly as bad as the Splash hate because of TNN was. If you want to hint at SotL I sure don't have to remind you that D&T is a fine matchup for Elves and that StoL is an easy victim for Sage
"Little Green Men" usually refers to Goblins not Elves.
At least the shake-up over the next month before the Legacy GP should be interesting to watch.

[Dice_Box]

Zombie was talking about Elves. "Little green men" is not an uncommon term to be thrown around in the thread.

[Zombie]

Yeah I'm an Elves player through and through.

@Lemnear
I know it isn't anywhere near as bad and that D&T will still be a favourable matchup. It doesn't mean the trend of "WotC prints broken blue card => people react with extra hate => Oh lols Elves takes splash damage despite not being blue" doesn't get on my nerves.

[maharis]

It's not like people are just going to play Crystal Vein, Plains, Spirit against these decks. Turn one Mom or Thoughtseize into a turn 2 spirit can make your cantrip-heavy, removal-light deck look pretty dumb.

[Lemnear]

It's not like people are just going to play Crystal Vein, Plains, Spirit against these decks. Turn one Mom or Thoughtseize into a turn 2 spirit can make your cantrip-heavy, removal-light deck look pretty dumb.

Like the D&T player if his opponent just plays Dread of Night, Golgari Charm or Toxic Deluge against that board. The point about the cantrips is that the minimize the damage done by disruption/hate cast against them

[HammerAndSickled]

Interestingly, I think Dig Through Time is secretly the better of the two spells by a mile. It offers a ton more card selection at instant speed, and if Legacy has taught us anything it's that card selection is significantly better than raw card advantage. Before cruise, how many decks in legacy actually played a means to draw cards? Jace's first activation is a cantrip, then he's +1 per turn if he survives, Bob sees little play anymore, nobody's cast an AK or FoF in years, etc. But more and more decks pick up the cantrip core and selection opportunities like Sensei's Top. While Delver decks might continue to want Cruise to keep their land counts low, I feel anything else probably prefers Dig. Stoneblade variants, combo decks, weird fair decks that have picked up Cruise like 12post, they all benefit so much more from Dig and people haven't realized that yet.

And if all this chicken-little talk about Spirit, Chains, and Notion Thief actually becomes true? Dig dodges all of them :P

[maharis]

Like the D&T player if his opponent just plays Dread of Night, Golgari Charm or Toxic Deluge against that board. The point about the cantrips is that the minimize the damage done by disruption/hate cast against them

Well, that's if there's a UB/BUG deck playing Cruise. So far the most successful deck playing it is UR and so it has no access to any of those cards.

[Dice_Box]

I feel Dig is the better card in a Control shell and Cruise in a tempo. I have played a bit with Dig and find myself treating it like a Brainstorm. I hold it until I need answers and then I look for them. To me it's like Cruise is Ponder and Dig Brainstorm. Both are good but one of them is used very differently to the other.

[Richard Cheese]

Well, that's if there's a UB/BUG deck playing Cruise. So far the most successful deck playing it is UR and so it has no access to any of those cards.

All hail the return of Sulfur Elemental!!!

[HammerAndSickled]

^Yes, but Brainstorm is the better card than Ponder, haha! And since you can't play both, I feel like once you commit to being reactive enough to support UU and the reactive nature of Dig, then it becomes the superior choice. I agree that Tempo continues to play Cruise for mana efficiency reasons, while anything slower than UR/RUG (possibly including UWR and BUG) would probably be better suited with Dig. UR and RUG are the last real tempo decks in existence, they capitalize on the early advantage and ride it out. UWR and BUG make a lot of concessions to control elements at the cost of speed. UWR has Stoneforge, an inherently slow clock; TNN, costing 3; and Plow, which gives up speed in racing scenarios. BUG has Deathrite and Liliana, both at their best in slower advantage-engine types of games; Abrupt Decay costs 2 so your options for "tempo" removal at a mana advantage are limited; and frequently doesn't play Daze, which is the best way to capitalize on a Cruise early on.

Not to mention any deck that's ever run a Counterspell is in the perfect position to run Dig, as the opportunity cost is basically the same: trading the tempo resource of your turn for a powerful, reactive answer. Therefore Stoneblade decks, with multiple basics and frequently running discard, are a good home for the card. Even Miracles seems like a great shell, except the obvious anti-synergy with Counterbalance (though it does counter all opposing Delve spells as well...). I'm very excited for these decks to start to emerge, and I hope that we end up having a varied (though ultimately blue, suck it ****) metagame where all positions on the metagame clock are using these new tools effectively.

[LOLWut]

It's conceivable that Dig will be a potent card when drawn, but will have less impact than Cruise, because of more difficulty in carrying 3-ofs or 4-ofs in a deck.

[Lemnear]

Interestingly, I think Dig Through Time is secretly the better of the two spells by a mile. It offers a ton more card selection at instant speed, and if Legacy has taught us anything it's that card selection is significantly better than raw card advantage. Before cruise, how many decks in legacy actually played a means to draw cards? Jace's first activation is a cantrip, then he's +1 per turn if he survives, Bob sees little play anymore, nobody's cast an AK or FoF in years, etc. But more and more decks pick up the cantrip core and selection opportunities like Sensei's Top. While Delver decks might continue to want Cruise to keep their land counts low, I feel anything else probably prefers Dig. Stoneblade variants, combo decks, weird fair decks that have picked up Cruise like 12post, they all benefit so much more from Dig and people haven't realized that yet.

And if all this chicken-little talk about Spirit, Chains, and Notion Thief actually becomes true? Dig dodges all of them :P

There is a serious difference if you play pure control or aggro-control. For the later, mana is a huge point towards Cruise as you can fire it in your turn, draw into a threat and play it.

[HammerAndSickled]

In real game scenarios it's not like you're battling on two to three lands by the time you can Delve 7 in a deck with a decent land count. In Esper there's no reason why you couldn't Dig in turn 4/5 and play a Land then a Stoneforge or something. Also, digging for a Jace isn't unreasonable at all in the matchups where Jace is your best card.

[Lemnear]

In real game scenarios it's not like you're battling on two to three lands by the time you can Delve 7 in a deck with a decent land count. In Esper there's no reason why you couldn't Dig in turn 4/5 and play a Land then a Stoneforge or something. Also, digging for a Jace isn't unreasonable at all in the matchups where Jace is your best card.

The Problem for these decks with Jace is, that Counterbalance+SDT+Terminus are a better cardadvantage engine than Treasure Cruise is.

[bruizar]

Nt

[ahg113]

These points completely ignore it's relevance against Griselbrand and Glimpse of Nature/Elvish Visionary; one could easily argue additional pillars of the format.

Through a little experimenting, it also shuts down Sylvan Library, which is just a wonderful bonus, because S.L. ≠ S.D.T.

[nedleeds]

That's false because differently from Goif, it'd be better if u could actually pitch it to force. Making Goyf pitchable on the other hand would make it worse because ppl would pitch him in situations where 99% of the time you shouldn't.

Swiftspear is definitely red in that regard. Now we just need playable cantrips in non-blue colors. Blue get the manipulation + cantrip spells, why other colors can't get like: "R: instant: discard a card at random, if u do draw two cards" or "B, instant: remove target 2 cards from a grave, draw a card", "G: instant: target creature get +1+1, draw a card" etc... you don't need to move card-drawing in other colors, cantrip are perfectly ok in every color.

I mean, White got Defiant Strike there's no reason why we can't get something similar (and playable plz) in other colors.

No. It's a blue card because all the cheap blue spells find business and replace themselves. The red spells you'd use with Swiftspear don't replace themselves. They are just bolts or crap like Assault Strobe ... Swiftspear is absolutely a blue card, burn decks will continue to run Goblin Guide and not play it.

[FoolofaTook]

I'm sad that the introduction of new broken blue cards makes my bunch of little green men suffer splash damage. Again :/

The little green men have been splashed to the kerplooshing point by now. What they need is a better way to cheat them in play than Aether Vial and Lackey. Can't think what that would be but they need it.

[FoolofaTook]

Dig through Time is going into Miracles to find Force plus a blue card; Brainstorm plus a Miracles card or the other half of CounterTop. Probably only as a 2-of though. Maybe just a 1-of. It also gives them an 8cc to flip to CB for Treasure Cruise.

The two Miracles pilots in my meta aren't going to use Treasure Cruise at all. Taking 3 off the top is not interesting to them when they could instead be looking for the things above.

[Dice_Box]

The little green men have been splashed to the kerplooshing point by now. What they need is a better way to cheat them in play than Aether Vial and Lackey. Can't think what that would be but they need it.

You should read more of the thread, he was not talking about Goblins.

[Lemnear]

Dig through Time is going into Miracles to find Force plus a blue card; Brainstorm plus a Miracles card or the other half of CounterTop. Probably only as a 2-of though. Maybe just a 1-of. It also gives them an 8cc to flip to CB for Treasure Cruise.

The two Miracles pilots in my meta aren't going to use Treasure Cruise at all. Taking 3 off the top is not interesting to them when they could instead be looking for the things above.

It's NOT going into Miracles. For the UU cost you can play counterspell itself, which doesn't require 6 cards in your graveyard piloting a deck which is based on PERMANENTS. Miracles isn't hitting 6 cards in their graveyard before turn 7 in average and by then you are either dead or have the complete softlock established and Jace running away with the game. Running a 8cmc card just to counter TC/DTT via Countertop is plain stupid if you can Maindeck Pyroblasts instead to fight those Delve-draw-spells while having an edge against Show&Tell, Delver of Secrets and in the Mirror.


The little green men have been splashed to the kerplooshing point by now. What they need is a better way to cheat them in play than Aether Vial and Lackey. Can't think what that would be but they need it.

There is Warren Instigator too. I don't know what's your problem here aside the fact that Goblin-Pilots still don't get that the mana-denial plan from 2002 isn't working anymore and that they need MB disruption in Form of discard or the like to stay competitive. They DO NOT NEED more ways to cheat on mana. Players NEED to accept that the manadenial plan with Wasteland and Rishadan Port is pointless if your Aether Vial isn't going to fly before turn 4 and your Key-spells cost 3-4 mana. Players stopped evolving Goblins 10 years ago and still dare to complain that it's unplayable TODAY?

[FoolofaTook]

You should read more of the thread, he was not talking about Goblins.

Then he should have said Elves. I may be a fool but I know men are not Elves and I also know that Goblins have been little green men since Exodus or therabouts. :)

[from Cairo]

Don't argue with Griselbrand or Glimpse as the the Demons threat against D&T isn't the draw but the 7/7 lifelinking Body while Elves kill you on the back of Natural Order, Craterhoof or Packmaster. Hell, they can even fetch Reclamation Sage and kill your Spirit and your Equipment too


I don't feel much like arguing, but if Griselbrand is shut off from it's draw capabilities the chances that a Swords to Plowshares, Karakas, or Mom+Flier negate/stall/remove it go up substantially. I agree that Natural Order is a completely different issue than Glimpse/Visionary, which is why I mentioned Spirit being relevant against the cards Elves cards with "Draw" on them and made no suggestion that Elves is suddenly a good match up thanks Spirit.

[Dice_Box]

Then he should have said Elves. I may be a fool but I know men are not Elves and I also know that Goblins have been little green men since Exodus or therabouts. :)

He did. It was a little bit further down the page.

[LeoCop 90]

There is Warren Instigator too. I don't know what's your problem here aside the fact that Goblin-Pilots still don't get that the mana-denial plan from 2002 isn't working anymore and that they need MB disruption in Form of discard or the like to stay competitive. They DO NOT NEED more ways to cheat on mana. Players NEED to accept that the manadenial plan with Wasteland and Rishadan Port is pointless if your Aether Vial isn't going to fly before turn 4 and your Key-spells cost 3-4 mana. Players stopped evolving Goblins 10 years ago and still dare to complain that it's unplayable TODAY?

It's not that people stopped evolving goblins .... goblins list are almost identical years after years for the very simple facts that:
A)the deck always was competitive one way or another, until deathrite shaman (one drop that anniihilates lackey just because he is for no apparent reason a 1/2 and invalidates the mana denial plan), abrupt decay (main board answer to vial), true name nemesis (can take over the game even if goblins drew tons of cards and removal spells), and now i feel that treasure cruise is another reason not to play goblins because every blue deck is getting a fantastic card advantage engine without the need to focus on a tribe
B) the core of the deck is untouchable (mainly matron,lackey,vial,ringleader,haste lords) and the deck anyways needs a lot of goblins to function properly. So it's not a fact of packing main board disruption like discard.... goblins need effective goblin shaped disruption (something like thalia in goblin form, take it just as an example) , or more effective ways to cheat in big spells (but what else can be better than lackey/instigator/vial?). Talking of goblin shaped disruption, people in goblins thread are now playing some number of Goblin Settler, but we need something better to be competitive. Unfortunately wizard is printing crappy goblins almost every set when it would not be difficult to print a legacy playable busted goblin without any influence for standard (because in standard goblin tribal usually doesn't exist, although now everyone plays rabblemaster)

[Zombie]

I want:
G
Creature - Elf
Defender
ETB draw a card
0/1

= one of the crappiest absolutely broken cards ever. LED is still maybe better, dunno?

[MaximumC]

I want:
G
Creature - Elf
Defender
ETB draw a card
0/1

= one of the crappiest absolutely broken cards ever. LED is still maybe better, dunno?

I'd buy that for a dollar. And what's crazy is that this actually could easily see print. It's poop in Standard, probably only fringe in Modern, but would be an instant combo engine powerhouse in Legacy.

And you know what? That'd be fine. Blue gets Brainstorm and Delve Ancestrall Recall? Green gets an underpriced Pyknite? Seems fair.