Finding a home for Contamination?

[Begle1]

I've been wondering recently how Contamination doesn't have any home in Legacy. I've seen it discussed here quite a bit, but it doesn't look like anybody's ever ran with it. It seems like between the various components of The Gate, NicFit, BUG Tempo and Demon Stompy, there has got to be some home for this card.


It isn't as Turn 1-able or maintenance-free as other lock-down pieces like Blood Moon, Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere or Tanglewire, but it's death against most any non-black deck without artifact or creature mana sources. Shouldn't be too hard to hit and stick on turn 2-3, and it at least steals their turns if you can't keep creatures around to feed it. I think the biggest weakness against it is an Abrupt Decay or enchantment kill spell off of Deathrite Shaman mana, but it seems like one can play around that.


I've been brain-storming enablers, many which already see play in various decks:
Bitterblossom
Reanimating Skeleton
Nether Traitor
Bloodghast
Grave Crawler
Nether Spirit
Dryad Arbor + Crucible of Worlds
Bloodsoaked Champion

On top of that, there is Veteran Explorer and some other creatures that actually want to be sacrificed.


Why doesn't The Gate run this card on top of its Bitterblossoms, at least in the sideboard somewhere?

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/18-09-14-legacy-black/


I think this is the best hybrid deck I have so far, not focused on Contamination but built around it enough to be useable. I'm probably trying to get a bit cute with Diabolic Intent + tool box shenanigans, but I swear there's something to be had here. Thoughts?


4x Cabal Therapy
4x Duress

3x Abrupt Decay
1x Diabolic Edict
1x Innocent Blood

2x Contamination

4x Diabolic Intent
3x Dark Confidant

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Reassembling Skeleton
3x Bitterblossom
3x Vampire Nighthawk
1x Abyssal Persecutor

1x Umezawa's Jitte

1x Dryad Arbor
1x Bayou
1x Forest
6x Swamp
1x Phyrexian Tower
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
2x Wooded Foothills


http://playtest.tappedout.net/black-connie/

[Memories of the Time]

If the choice will be non-bitterblossom (or not only), i think the new Grim Haruspex could give you more advantage making a two-turns-long contamination a serious business, while he's good by himself.
I'm testing Nether Traitor+Pack Rat+Stinkweed Imp in Demon Stompy (check the last reply there) in the grim/contamination version

[Meekrab]

UB Tezzeret can play enough artifact mana and Thopter/Swords to run this card and largely not care about it, but I'm not sure what you would cut, that maindeck is already pretty tight.

[rufus]

Fundamentally the problem with Contamination+support it that you could just win outright at roughly the same cost with something like Painter's Servant + Grindstone. Because you need support for it, it's also very hard to make contamination work as a denial strategy against all the fast decks in the format.

Though there are obvious problems flaws with the concept, it might work to run contamination as a tempo element in some kind of swarming deck that can have four creatures on the field by turn 2-3 and then use contamination to buy a few turns in order to close out the game, and to consider soft-lock scenarios as a secondary possibility.

Brainless Zombies

Bloodsoaked Champion
Gravecrawler
Carnophage
Sarcomancy

Blood Scrivener
Dark Confidant
Bloodghast

Dark Ritual
Chrome Mox

Smallpox
Sinkhole

Contamination
Parallax Nexus


Thing is you're still going to be slower and less dangerous than stuff like Elves! or Goblins... maybe those decks could splash for contamination?

[thefreakaccident]

Gravecrawler zombies may be a route, although zombies have never really been very competitive.


Quick beats, bad moon, contamination... Maybe? Still seems potentially soft.

[T-101]

I've wanted to run contamination a few times in my day, but I never have the gumption to actually build and test the deck :( ... There's just too many other super awesome decks to play IMO.

The new Bloodsoaked Champion does work quite well with Contamination, but I'm not sure it's enough better than what we already had (Nether Spirit, Nether Traitor, Bloodghast, Gravecrawler and friends).

I think if the plan is to Contamination lock them, there should probably be some disruption. Being that Contamination is black, and all the creatures that support it are black, may as well stick to mono-black for the disruption. More to come...

[thefreakaccident]

I've never seen a gravecrawler zombie contamination agro before... Quest for the gravelord! I'm on a quest.

lands//20
15 swamps
2 city of traitors
3 ancient tomb

creatures//24
4 gravecrawler
4 carrion feeder
4 diregraf zombie
4 slitherhead
4 undead warchief
4 carnophage

spells//16
4 contamination
4 bad moon
4 quest for the gravelord
4 sarcomancy


The deck is a little strange, but I'm going to test this first. I like the synergy of everything so far, although I haven't tested it yet.
I feel like deathrite shaman will become an issue for my list.. we'll see, the 2/2s may just smash face. It'll probably also need removal :eek:.

[ReAnimator]

Well if you want to dial up the Way Back Machine, here is something i was running almost 5 years ago. A lot has changed since then, but this may give you some ideas on card choices and synergies that you might not have thought of. Obviously the meta is pretty different now, i'm just posting this as food for thought.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16245-Deck-Contaminated-Demons&highlight=contaminated+demons

[Mystical_Jackass]

I remember Contaminated Demons! And I remember always trying to sneak in Contamination to black decks back 5-7 years ago, I'd try in Sui, or Pox, or Braids Stax or something. It's more that it's usually just a 2-card combination that doesn't necessarily win the game, and doesn't deal with board position. That aside... usually you DO win if you get the lock XD There are those rare occasions you go up another mono black deck, evagreen, artifacts, or deadguy matchups and they don't care.

For me, it always felt like it was better as a SB option.. 'cause back then 43 Lands, Enchantress and Zoo were stomping my meta all the time, and all those can get rekt by Contamination if played right. But just gunning for it main deck as your primary tactic... I'm not sure if I'd gamble on that.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I've never seen a gravecrawler zombie contamination agro before... Quest for the gravelord! I'm on a quest.

lands//20
15 swamps
2 city of traitors
3 ancient tomb

creatures//24
4 gravecrawler
4 carrion feeder
4 diregraf zombie
4 slitherhead
4 undead warchief
4 carnophage

spells//16
4 contamination
4 bad moon
4 quest for the gravelord
4 sarcomancy


The deck is a little strange, but I'm going to test this first. I like the synergy of everything so far, although I haven't tested it yet.
I feel like deathrite shaman will become an issue for my list.. we'll see, the 2/2s may just smash face. It'll probably also need removal :eek:.

No Dark Ritual? :eek:

[thefreakaccident]

The only thing to cut would be badmoon IMO, and I feel the need for lord effects in the list. It might be incorrect not to include it. I'd have to test the list first to see. Although, with my book, I'm kind of swamped for time, so perhaps someone else wouldn't mind testing it alongside me? Preferably someone with excess time on their hands.

[thefreakaccident]

Made a few changes to the decklist:

lands//21
14 swamp
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors

creatures//27
4 slitherhead
4 carnophage
4 gravecrawler
4 carrion feeder
4 diregraf ghoul
4 undead warchief
3 grim haruspex

spells//12
4 quest for the gravelord
4 contamination
4 bad moon



I played around 15 games last night against a few different types of decks. Surprisingly, I beat landstill, mainly b/c of contamination, once completely due to grindy beats. Lost to delver b/c of no pump spells and many goyfs. Beat jund and Uwr delver with contamination alone. I think Contamination is the real deal, and this decklist seems suited enough to handle it. It's even better than bloodmoon in a lot of cases, because it even affects their basics. It felt like I won more games due to the contamination than the zombie beats, lol. Most issues occur when there is something too big on the board (5+ defense), and I haven't drawn the cards I have that can compare. As for the mainboard, reanimator, and other such decks will be difficult to deal with.


A few of the critters are a little weak on their own. Carnophage and slitherhead stick out. Although, the new addition of grim haruspex, even though it isn't a zombie, it is so good on board he almost makes up for having inferior critters sometimes because I generally have a lot of them. He's especially good in a grindy midgame.

The deck still needs removal, but I don't necessarily know what to cut. Help appreciated.

[rufus]

...
The deck still needs removal, but I don't necessarily know what to cut. Help appreciated.

How have Quest for the Gravelord and Bad Moon worked out for you?

Innocent Blood and Smallpox work well with the recursion theme.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Sure.

-4 Blood Moon
-4 Quest for the Gravelord
-3 Grim Haruspex
-2 Ancient Tomb
-1 City of Traitors
-4 Undead Warchief

+4 Dark Ritual
+4 Bitterblossom
+3 Jitte
+4 Smother
+4 Thoughtseize/Duress

--------------

You have such a low mana curve, cutting down to 14 swamp/4 sol split seems smart. With ritual you can power out 2x 2/2's and a Thoughtseize, then follow that up with a bitterblossom or Sol Land + Contamination/Jitte/etc, or just thoughtseize+blossom, or just throw out a gravecrawler + jitte. The Warchief makes no sense, your creatures are already dirt cheap and it costs a wopping 4. Just throw a Jitte on them and swing, your gravecrawler and blossom can carry Jitte ftw (I've not built this deck but many aggro MB so I know how good it is). Thoughtseize/Duress and Smother are pretty much mandatory to have answers to your opponents crap, you dont want to be blown out by WoG and annoying walkers/enchantments that black can't deal with very easily, and you need to attack their stps and counters too. For card draw... I wouldn't even really bother, with this kind of deck your pretty much all-in, spam and lock them out of game before you lose. If you absolutely had to have draw maybe run Bob, I'm not sure I'd even waste my time, if anything I'd rather just diabolic intent and get exactly whatever piece I eneded.

[thefreakaccident]

I get what your suggesting Mystical, and it will be in consideration, although, I am still commited to playing a deck heavy with creatures to ensure the continuance of contamination. The pump spells will be a necessity if im going to be playing savannah lions that can't block.



@rufus-> I can't believe I forgot about innocent blood, perfect. Smallpox, maybe not. Quest for the gravelord is amazing, expecially with pumps out, and usually activates pretty fast.

Bad moon is a cheaper lord. It's really good after you have some critters on board, but it would be much better if it had a 2/2 body to go with it :(. The other good thing is it will never go down to one pierce.

[Worldslayer]

I think the biggest thing you have to overcome in order to "find a home" for Contamination is the issue of "why am I not just running blood moon?".

I get that it sounds like a brush off, and I don't mean it that way, but that is actually the largest hurdle to running contamination in Legacy. Think about it. Either I can run a mono black deck with a bunch of sub par recursive creatures that don't fight or clock very well and turn on opposing grave hate, while also losing my lock piece - or I can run fetchlands, two Badlands, Blood Moon, and run guys and spells of a far superior quality now that I'm not worried about keeping my hate card in play.

Generally, I've found the card that takes less work to make good is the better card more of the time, even if the effect is slightly weaker. Here, the effect isn't even weaker - it's a lateral move.

So before I'd start to build deck cores and lists, I'd try to honestly answer that question. If nothing else, the answer probably develops some card choices.

[Meekrab]

Generally, I've found the card that takes less work to make good is the better card more of the time, even if the effect is slightly weaker. Here, the effect isn't even weaker - it's a lateral move.
It's not exactly lateral, Contamination shuts off basic lands too.

[thefreakaccident]

It's not exactly lateral, Contamination shuts off basic lands too.

He's right, contamination is strictly better. Blood moon won't affect my deck much, but contamination will kill the manabases of monocolored decks, assuming they're not black.

[Meekrab]

Monocolored decks and decks like UR Delver, Miracles, etc. that play lots of basics to dodge Wasteland, yeah.

[Mystical_Jackass]

He's right, contamination is strictly better. Blood moon won't affect my deck much, but contamination will kill the manabases of monocolored decks, assuming they're not black.

Not strictly better. They're both used to accomplish completely different things. Contamination is to color screw them, their lands only produce black, Blood Moon completely converts their nonbasics into mountains effectively shutting down Wastelands, duals, Mazes, Tabernacles, etc. --Contamination will not help you against Tabernacle or Maze for example. And it also won't help you if they're also :b:, but that's the gamble. Sorry just had to clarify, 'cause I hear ppl naturally compare Contamination as the black blood moon all the time and it's completely different.

[thefreakaccident]

You're right in that regard, however, I still use the cards with the same general strategy in mind: mana screw. That's all I'll ever use them for, although, mandlands have reared their ugly heads up a couple times.

I'll just have to accept losing to lands. The deck isn't tier whatsoever, it's still very rough.

[rufus]

You're right in that regard, however, I still use the cards with the same general strategy in mind: mana screw. That's all I'll ever use them for, although, mandlands have reared their ugly heads up a couple times.

Contamination does make Wasteland produce :b:, they could be a decent fit.

[thefreakaccident]

Wasteland could be a good fit, but I wouldn't actually know how to fit it in at the moment.

Made a few quick changes:
-4 carnpphage
-4 undead warchief
+4 bitterblossom
+3 umezawa's jitte
+1 Grim Haruspex


The reduction of my 4cc slot entirely may justify cutting one of the 21 lands, but we'll see. Any suggestions for that last spot that isn't dark ritual?

[Mystical_Jackass]

Well... my vote would definitely be go for the removal then, Smother is a good card. Clear out a goyf or Delver, or at least make them burn a counter so you can drop something good on your turn.

[apple713]

Not strictly better. They're both used to accomplish completely different things. Contamination is to color screw them, their lands only produce black, Blood Moon completely converts their nonbasics into mountains effectively shutting down Wastelands, duals, Mazes, Tabernacles, etc. --Contamination will not help you against Tabernacle or Maze for example. And it also won't help you if they're also :b:, but that's the gamble. Sorry just had to clarify, 'cause I hear ppl naturally compare Contamination as the black blood moon all the time and it's completely different.

its probably better to just play blood moons, and like 8 land destruction spells for their basics. even mono colored decks run like 8 max basics

[Mystical_Jackass]

Maybe, but that's also a lot of dedication to mana screwing them, so many of these decks run Vial and a low curve, I'd be worried that as long as they can keep a basic open they're not losing tempo. I suppose one way you could do it would be running a :b:/:r: Deck that runs Wasteland/Sinkhole/Moon/Revoker/Trinisphere & run Toxic Deluge to sweep the board once they're locked out of game. It's doable.

Otherwise if you really love to royally screw opponents mana just play Team America lol.

[nedleeds]

I think you need 6+ ways of killing a DRS otherwise Contamination is Bone Flute. You can still fetch under contamination (obv).

[Begle1]

I'm close to convincing myself that the home for Contamination is either Demon Stompy or, more likely, a Gate x NicFit hybrid running one or two Contamination, Bitterblossoms, Deathrite Shamans and Veteren Explorers along with Diabolic Intent, typical black disruption and at least one Abyssal Persecutor. There's a lot of synergy there.

Contamination has different outs than Bloodmoon, and can be played in a very different deck. Bloodmoon tries to come out on turn 1, in a prison deck; due to the upkeep requirement on Contamination, it wants to come out a bit later, giving a black deck time to do some hand and board interaction first.

Also, remember that you can fetch under Contamination, but the basic will still only make black mana!

I'm having fun with the list I posted on the last page, it's not great yet but is unique at least.

[Megadeus]

I think nedleeds point was that if they have active deathrite they can still fetch abd therefore continue to feed their deathrite to continue making their colors

[Begle1]

Ah, yes.

Deathrite Shaman is definitely a valid topic of discussion.

In my hybrid deck, Deathrite is a total Swiss army knife (like he is in most decks). He can lock down an opposing Deathrite while under a Contamination just by remaining untapped, and he also can pump out a turn 2 Contamination and be sacrificed to it on Turn 3. He also can tap for mana on Turn 2, get sacrificed to a Diabolic Intent and serve up any 1-mana silver bullet (Duress, Innocent Blood, Cabal Therapy, etc.). And he is the best way for me to get green mana for Abrupt Decay, whether under Contamination or not.

Or he can just accelerate into 3-mana on turn 2 for Liliana, Vampire Nighthawk, Bitterblossom + Duress, whatever. Contamination is really just another silver bullet in the deck I posted.

And the NicFit starts with a Turn 1 Veteran Explorer into Diabolic Intent, Phyrexian Tower, Cabal Therapy or Innocent Blood can be even better than the Deathrite starts.

[Damajin]

I think Bitterblossom is the best card for it, unless you're trying to build GY toolbox.dec or something BB is so much more efficient.

Contamination was a thing in the earliest Reanimator decks when that deck ran lots of silver bullet creatures and played a more combo control game with cards like Verdant Force or Zombie Infestation feeding it, and the framework of those show where it is best: passive token generation or in a feeding engine. Used to be Zombie Infestation into Buried Alive for 3 Squee into Contamination was good enough but BB is so fast why run anything else? Recursion creatures just opens you up to grave hate.

UBg control shell goodstuff.dec would be best, either fitting BB/Contamination into a typical Delver list or dropping Delver and building more around BB as your wincon with Jitte and such, or perhaps a Stoneforge style UBw.

The major problem with Contamination which isn't shared by Blood Moon is that it leaves all the lands what they are, so in cases like Submerge where you can ACC it because your Islands are still Islands even if they produce black mana you get left holding the bag. Sucks but hey it's Contamination lock. It's never going to be perfect but it's going to be backbreaking most of the time.

[FTW]

Three potential shells I see working for this (other than a convoluted Demon stompy variant) are Bg aggro, Bw tokens and Br Pyromancer.

These are all variants of carrion-crawler with different tempo elements. Just rough lists to start a discussion.

1) Bg Aggro
You get DRS to basically counter their DRS (meaning they can no longer use dead fetches for fixing under contamination) and Abrupt Decay to remove whatever they sneak through early. Contamination shuts you off green but most of your green is to either AD something when you're losing or jam a turn 2 beater under Contamination lock. Troll gives you 12 zombies and lets you pitch Bloodghast and friends to feed into Contamination, giving it the edge over Goyf.


//Creatures: 28
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Carrion Feeder
4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Bloodghast
4 Dark Confidant
4 Lotleth Troll

//Spells: 14
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Bitterblossom
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Contamination
1 Dismember

//Lands: 18
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest



2) Bw tokens. StP gives you a way to remove problems that land before Contamination. And you get Lingering Souls. Chrome Mox to help cast white things. Mox helps early contamination . Stoneblade package and Intangible Virtue make it easier to win with dorks. You clearly only cast Contamination when its favorable, so that might lead to situations where you'd rather just board it out.


//Creatures: 15
4 Gravecrawler
4 Carrion Feeder
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Stoneforge Mystic

//Spells: 20
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Bitterblossom
3 Intangible Virtue
3 Lingering Souls
3 Contamination

//Planeswalker: 1
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

//Equipment: 2
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind

//Mana: 22
4 Chrome Mox
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas



3) Br Pyromancer
Young Pyro is a decent tempo shell that can generate a lot of bodies to fuel Contamination while you win. Mild red splash allows for better removal against early issues (Delver, DRS). Might be a little too suicidal with life totals. Faithless Looting digs, filters unwanted cards, and generates some card and tempo advantage via your graveyard dorks and YP tokens. You can pitch an unwanted Contamination or dig into a wanted one. Tokens and dorks wear Jitte FTW.


//Creatures: 12
3 Bloodsoaked Champion
3 Bloodghast
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Dark Confidant

//Spells: 26
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Faithless Looting
3 Bitterblossom
3 Contamination

//Equipment: 2
2 Umezawa's Jitte

//Lands: 18
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Mountain


EDIT: I just realized Cavern of Souls does exactly what you want it to do in a mono B tribal deck (e.g. zombies). It'll produce black but the spell will still be uncounterable. Enemy Aether Vials could also be a problem, so you probably want some way to shut them out (Revoker?).

[thefreakaccident]

Going back into zombies:

lands//19
16 swamps
3 city of traitors

creatures//22
4 carrion feeder
4 gravecrawler
4 diregaf ghoul
4 slitherhead
4 undead warchief
2 unknown slots

spells//19
4 dark ritual
4 entomb
4 sarcomancy
3 umezawa's jitte
4 contamination


The reanimates are for local reanimators who love discarding fatties and reanimating them on the next turn. Basically terrible metagaming a terrible meta, although it can change. Running Trinisphere, and while painful, it's stronger vs combo than myself, so I run with it. The sideboard needs work all around and I could use some ideas, but the mainboard has been running so much better.

Turns 1/2 make 3 2/2s, turn three land city and warchief and smash. Entomb being gravecrawlers 5-8 really helps consistency, surprised I didn't think of it before. Occasionally good with slitherhead as well.

I had to get rid of the quest for the gravelords, I just kept telling myself that they were good when they were complete trash, they would be vying for the sarcomancy slot at this point anyways. I also needed to get rid of bitterblossom and badmoon, they weren't good enough. Have you ever had a bitterblossom and a sarcomancy in play with no zombies in sight? Trust me, you lose that race. But between the added consistency of both comboes, the deck is running much better than it was before. It's actually winning games against real decks.

[clavio]

Instead of dicking around with contamination you should be trying to win the game.

[Begle1]

I don't know, I'm really enjoying it as a one-of in my NicFit/ Gate hybrid deck.

In a deck with so many critters anyways, including Bitterblossom (the perfect enabler) and stuff you want to sacrifice like Veteran Explorer and Abyssal Persecuter, with the Diabolic Intent engine going on, I think it's an ideal home. I'm still playing around with it and the silver bullet package, but I think the core is there and Contamination fits really well.

I'm not feeling it as a 4-of in anything though...

[thefreakaccident]

Instead of dicking around with contamination you should be trying to win the game.

If you are ahead on board, and you land contamination against a non-black deck, you are winning the game.

[clavio]

If you are ahead on board, and you land contamination against a non-black deck, you are winning the game.

If you ultimate nicol bolas you are winning the game.

[thefreakaccident]

If you ultimate nicol bolas you are winning the game.


Touche. Although, one of these are possible within a game of legacy, and one isn't.