[Podcast] Everyday Eternal 29: Finally, a Use for Magic Online

[thecrav]

http://www.eternalcentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/EverydayEternalEpisode29.jpg
Link! (http://www.eternalcentral.com/everyday-eternal-podcast-episode-29-finally-a-use-for-magic-online/)
iTunes link (https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/everyday-eternal/id661834191)
Feed link for non-Apple devices (http://www.eternalcentral.com/?feed=everydayeternal)


In episode 29 of Everyday Eternal Matt Pavlic (sdematt), Sam Craven (dats me!), and Julian Knab (Julian23) wrap up the last of the new cards from Khans of Tarkir. There’s not a lot left, so the discussion quickly moves from the plane of the Khans to the realm of online Magic. Sam introduces us to the Vintage Super League, which he hopes will bring more attention and interest to Vintage. Julian shares stories from the recent Legacy MOCS – the only non-GP Legacy tournament that can be used to qualify for a Pro Tour.

Timestamps:
00:00 Stubborn Denial
03:32 Khans of Tarkir cards that just barely miss the cut: Treasure Cruise, Merderous Cut, Utter End, Empty the Pits
11:29 Vintage Super League
20:42 Legacy MOCS Qualifier
39:53 General banter and outro

Links:
Vintage Super League (http://vintagesuperleague.com/)
Vintage Super League YouTube Playlists (https://www.youtube.com/user/randybuehler/playlists)
Legacy MOCS Championship Decklists and Results (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-mocs-2014-09-07)

Thanks again for listening! If you have any questions or just want to chat, let us know on Twitter (@EternalMTG), like us on Facebook (facebook.com/EverydayEternalPodcast), or email (EverydayEternalCast@gmail.com), or in the thread below.

[Jon]

Did you guys miss the "boat" on Treasure Cruise?


I am such a loser.

Great cast guys.

[Megadeus]

Just listened this morning. Solid cast. The MTGO meta sounds horrid though. That really pushes me towards the never playing it boat. Also Matts comment about vintage was awesome:
(paraphrasing here) "So I got on about 4 margaritas in to play a quick 2 man. It immediately fires and I see my opponent is Steve Menendian. Oh Shit"

[Lemnear]

For my taste a very shallow cards analysis happened here, with a lot of obvious interactions & applications skipped to discuss and therefore ending with questionable comments on the playability of certain cards.

Overall too many topics and not enough time to cover those with the quality we are used to listen to. :(

[Phelix]

I partly agree w. lemnear.

also, covering new cards just because there are new cards, gets boring.

Cover new cards if you have particular opinions, testing, results or suggestions (hoard it?) etc.

I have decided to give you guys enough credit to provide in depths analysis and thoughts on stuff.



so do it. :P

[sdematt]

I partly agree w. lemnear.

also, covering new cards just because there are new cards, gets boring.

Cover new cards if you have particular opinions, testing, results or suggestions (hoard it?) etc.

I have decided to give you guys enough credit to provide in depths analysis and thoughts on stuff.



so do it. :P

If I remember, part of this cast was lost due to Audacity dying while we were saving it. That's why it's not the usual 1 hour cast. I think a bunch of pieces were lost on Sam/Julians end, meaning we had to cut portions out because have me talking about it with gaps wasn't interesting enough (apparently :wink: )

We've already decided to end up redoing some of the sections, so let us know if there's cards in particular you want us to cover again, or just do all the interesting ones ;)

-Matt

[L0cke]

I think you guys were horribly underestimating how good Treasure Cruise is, but we'll see what actually happens!

[nedleeds]

Blue got good cards, no unbannings, legacy is stale as month old bread, the end.

[sdematt]

I think you guys were horribly underestimating how good Treasure Cruise is, but we'll see what actually happens!

I think we can definitely re-cover Pleasure Cruise, but I see some problems here.

1) At what point does drawing three cards at sorcery speed become worth it? We know 5 mana isn't worth it, 4 mana isn't worth it, and 3 mana can be worth it (Shardless into Visions). So, for it to even be semi-good, you must delve at least 4 cards.

2) What does this draw spell replace? Is it Ponder, is it nothing? What slots do you take up with this card in current list? I've seen BUG or BURG Delver speculation with this card, but I foresee a problem. The first one may be good, but can you reliably cast multiples? What strategies are weakened by Delving all day, everyday? Tarmogoyf and DRS strategies are likely weakened.

3) Threat density. If Pleasure Cruise does get added in, with 4 Ponder 4 Brainstorm, I fear you end up drawing into cantrips into cantrips. While this does help fuel more Cruises (this name is fucking awful, by the way), where is your threat density? Sure, you can draw cards, but do you have enough cards that actually do something to win some games?



I think the card will see play as a 4-of in some decks for sure, but it's likely better as a 2-of Recall in more controlling decks like Esperblade. Drawing three cards there and Delving means nothing to that deck. You can't play it in RUG Delver, and I'm not sure what you're cutting in BUG Delver to make room for it. Sneak and Show won't play it, Storm can't play it, etc. I don't see it having enough oomph to see widespread, 4-of play.

-Matt

[phazonmutant]

Blue got good cards, no unbannings, legacy is stale as month old bread, the end.

That's the sort of insightful analysis I was hoping to find when I launched the podcast. Instead I get some guys doing everything but making fun of people and things. What happened to this podcast?

[nedleeds]

That's the sort of insightful analysis I was hoping to find when I launched the podcast. Instead I get some guys doing everything but making fun of people and things. What happened to this podcast?

I was busy at the scg atl playing Enchantress and losing to variance becuase I don't play brainponderstorm while they were recording this trainwreck of a cast.

[T-101]

That's the sort of insightful analysis I was hoping to find when I launched the podcast. Instead I get some guys doing everything but making fun of people and things. What happened to this podcast?

Lots of Legacy elitism sneaking into the podcast. I do still enjoy most of the cast, but it seems more and more that there's this attitude of "I play Legacy and Vintage, and I have been for a long time, I'm so much smarter and better than these plebs who use Clan names/don't have Beta duals/screwed up this rare interaction/got unlucky."

More stuff like the Cabal Therapy episode would be awesome :)

[sdematt]

Lots of Legacy elitism sneaking into the podcast. I do still enjoy most of the cast, but it seems more and more that there's this attitude of "I play Legacy and Vintage, and I have been for a long time, I'm so much smarter and better than these plebs who use Clan names/don't have Beta duals/screwed up this rare interaction/got unlucky."

More stuff like the Cabal Therapy episode would be awesome :)

The question is, is there more stuff to do that we've missed? Cabal Therapy is one of the cards you can do an episode like that, but if we did Brainstorm, as with anything Brainstorm, the uproar is tremendous, good and bad.

I'd like to get back to reviewing footage, since I think that's the most useful. Ideally, have one of us play Magic online, record the video, and have us talking over plays. We're working on it though, since scheduling with the European connection is a freaking nightmare.

Part of the problem is also Legacy tunnel vision. It's hard to know what people do and don't know when you have some experience with the format. I'd definitely LOVE suggestions on cards to talk about, plays to talk about, strategies, etc. Unfortunately looking at it right now, it's hard since I feel like I'd be repeating myself, even though maybe we're not.

tl: dr : Give us suggestions and I'll talk to death about them. Being in the trenches for so long makes you lose sight of things to talk about. Suggest, suggest, suggest!

-Matt

[Megadeus]

Discuss hate bears, and which ones slot into various decks for different reasons. We have a plethora of different ones at this point/

[thecrav]

Discuss hate bears, and which ones slot into various decks for different reasons. We have a plethora of different ones at this point/

This will go hand-in-hand with my work on EDH hatebears.dec

[Lormador]

I think it would be cool to get a rundown of any surprising decks or cool sideboard tech coming out of non-SCG tournaments (or SCG tournaments, but we all already look pretty carefully at those). European players have a reputation for successful innovation, and it would be nice to have some help with all of that data. You even have a German champion with Elves, ruler of Gaea's Realm and our rightful Magical overlord, long may he reign. Maybe he could read some more card names for us.

I too would really like to hear that hatebear episode.

[ESG]

You even have a German guy.

Let's try this again: a German champion with Elves.

[bruizar]

I might be the exception here, but I for one refuse to watch MTGO or MWS games. A large part of the charm of mtg is the actual physical cards. Otherwise i'd much rather watch League of Legends, or even Hearthstone.

[Aggro_zombies]

3) Threat density. If Pleasure Cruise does get added in, with 4 Ponder 4 Brainstorm, I fear you end up drawing into cantrips into cantrips. While this does help fuel more Cruises (this name is fucking awful, by the way), where is your threat density? Sure, you can draw cards, but do you have enough cards that actually do something to win some games?
Well, there's Young Pyromancer. A Grixis Pyromancer build seems like it could be spicy. You have Bainstorm, Cruise, Thoughtseize, Hymn, Bolt, and then a creature base of Delver, DRS, Pyro, and then either TNN or maybe Clique if you'd rather try to operate mostly at instant speed.

I'm not sure if it's good, but then I'm not sure Treasure Cruise is good. I think Dig Through Time has more potential but UU kind of constrains it.

[Higgs]

Julian said he had missed the VSL. Don't you guys read the forums?

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28547-Vintage-Super-League

Plus, how can you miss it? It's just awesome. And I think the title for this cast is incredibly fitting.

[nedleeds]

I might be the exception here, but I for one refuse to watch MTGO or MWS games. A large part of the charm of mtg is the actual physical cards. Otherwise i'd much rather watch League of Legends, or even Hearthstone.

The interface translates poorly, dredge is unwatchable. Dredge is incidentally way easier since you can't miss triggers.

[D@N]

Well, what about cube or edh? Is that a possibility since this is an eternal cast, or is it just blasphemy?

[nedleeds]

I think cube is a personal thing you build to have fun with your friends. I don't really care about other peoples cubes, if they are having fun with them then great. Seems like cubing could use a podcast of it's own, it's a little neckbeardy for eternal magic. Same thing applies to the miserable backslapping barnacling world of multiplayer EDH, there have to be a thousand 'Her I genesis waved for 89!' podcasts for that format. I could get behind 1v1 (Duel Commander) but I think I'm the only one on the cast who plays it, it's pretty fun and varied but there's not a big following in the US for the 1v1 rules, because here in America even if you finish 5th you still get a trophy.

[Meekrab]

Well, there's Young Pyromancer. A Grixis Pyromancer build seems like it could be spicy. You have Bainstorm, Cruise, Thoughtseize, Hymn, Bolt, and then a creature base of Delver, DRS, Pyro, and then either TNN or maybe Clique if you'd rather try to operate mostly at instant speed.

I'm not sure if it's good, but then I'm not sure Treasure Cruise is good. I think Dig Through Time has more potential but UU kind of constrains it.
Haven't tested it at all but I'm not sure if you want DRS and Cruise in the same deck. Dark Confidant might have more synergy.

[mini1337s]

Haven't tested it at all but I'm not sure if you want DRS and Cruise in the same deck. Dark Confidant might have more synergy.
I have enough trouble stomaching 5 damage off a Force. Don't want to take 8 off a cruise.

[nedleeds]

I have enough trouble stomaching 5 damage off a Force. Don't want to take 8 off a cruise.

You got him.

Can't wait for the CB revealing Dig to counter Cruise ... also revealing Dig / Cruise to counter Hoof Derp (tm). A whole new era of cantripping and elf derp misery awaits Legacy!

[Lemnear]

I have enough trouble stomaching 5 damage off a Force. Don't want to take 8 off a cruise.

I'm 99% sure he was talking about DRS + Bob instead of DRS + TC. Anyways, I don't see a problem in running DRS to remove your opponents lands for mana to feed your own TC and delay your opponents Delve-Draw. Honestly, I think the DRS+TC battles will define future Aggro-Control-Mirrors. You heared it here first.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'm 99% sure he was talking about DRS + Bob instead of DRS + TC. Anyways, I don't see a problem in running DRS to remove your opponents lands for mana to feed your own TC and delay your opponents Delve-Draw. Honestly, I think the DRS+TC battles will define future Aggro-Control-Mirrors. You heared it here first.

And that's the reason why I believe BURG is a future of Delver/tempo decks and thus I'm strongly considering to a) switch to Old Scool or b) burn my thresh on next Shabbos dawn.

[mini1337s]

I'm 99% sure he was talking about DRS + Bob instead of DRS + TC. Anyways, I don't see a problem in running DRS to remove your opponents lands for mana to feed your own TC and delay your opponents Delve-Draw. Honestly, I think the DRS+TC battles will define future Aggro-Control-Mirrors. You heared it here first.
Ahhhh, I see. I thought that he was suggesting running Bob and Cruise in the same deck, which I wouldn't advocate.

[Koby]

Ahhhh, I see. I thought that he was suggesting running Bob and Cruise in the same deck, which I wouldn't advocate.

CHOO CHOO!



_-====-__-======-__-========-_____-============-__
_( _)
OO( )_
0 (_ No stopping this card advantage train! _)
o0 (_ _)
o '=-___-===-_____-========-___________-===-___-='
.o _________
. ______ ______________ | | _____
_()_||__|| ________ | | |_________| __||___||__
(BNSF 1995| | | | | __Y______00_| |_ _|
/-OO----OO""="OO--OO"="OO--------OO"="OO-------OO"="OO-------OO"=P
#####################################################################

[thecrav]

Ahhhh, I see. I thought that he was suggesting running Bob and Cruise in the same deck, which I wouldn't advocate.

C'mon bro, greatness at any cost!

[nedleeds]

Meh ... I've flipped this guy before ....

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mbs/99.jpg

... any cost

[LOLWut]

And that's the reason why I believe BURG is a future of Delver/tempo decks and thus I'm strongly considering to a) switch to Old Scool or b) burn my thresh on next Shabbos dawn.

Go Blood Mooning.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Go Blood Mooning.
You mean that red Stompy deck? Nah, it's incosistent pile of rubbish.

[Meekrab]

The interface translates poorly, dredge is unwatchable. Dredge is incidentally way easier since you can't miss triggers.
Speaking of dredge, is there some reason literally zero dredge players on MTGO in the Tournament practice room even try to win postboard games? Like literally I mull to Leyline of the Void and they turbo scoop.

I thought it was for practicing for tournaments, not congratulating yourself on your 90% game 1 wins?

[mini1337s]

Speaking of dredge, is there some reason literally zero dredge players on MTGO in the Tournament practice room even try to win postboard games? Like literally I mull to Leyline of the Void and they turbo scoop.

I thought it was for practicing for tournaments, not congratulating yourself on your 90% game 1 wins?
A lot of people like to use the Internet for masturbation...

[thecrav]

Speaking of dredge, is there some reason literally zero dredge players on MTGO in the Tournament practice room even try to win postboard games? Like literally I mull to Leyline of the Void and they turbo scoop.

I thought it was for practicing for tournaments, not congratulating yourself on your 90% game 1 wins?

Ironic, isn't it? When I have a tough postboard matchup like this, I actually skip game 1 in testing. My guess is that you're correct. The deck is cheap to build so people build it, win game one quickly, then tell themselves vintage is stupid because they one game one on turn one.

I'm starting to really dislike the tournament practice room. You've got to use it because 2mans are awful EV but I frequently run into things like

Conceding the match to my turn 1 play
Mulliganing to death game 1 and conceding the match
Conceding when i'm part way through a combo which could fail - c'mon man, this is for practice. I need to practice comboing and you need to practice maybe winning through it
Sour grapes - I joined a game with a guy I'd beaten earlier and I never drew my opening 7. Just sat and waited for 10 minutes while he did nothing. He timed out and immediately rejoined the queue.


That being said, I have a terrific game I played today that I'm going to try to have a video of sometime in the near future.

[MaximumC]

CHOO CHOO!



_-====-__-======-__-========-_____-============-__
_( _)
OO( )_
0 (_ No stopping this card advantage train! _)
o0 (_ _)
o '=-___-===-_____-========-___________-===-___-='
.o _________
. ______ ______________ | | _____
_()_||__|| ________ | | |_________| __||___||__
(BNSF 1995| | | | | __Y______00_| |_ _|
/-OO----OO""="OO--OO"="OO--------OO"="OO-------OO"="OO-------OO"=P
#####################################################################


The best analogy is Gush. People in Vintage do not play Gush with Bob because of the damage, so I see no reason why Treasure Cruise would be any different. Still, TC draws you one more card, so you never know. Maybe someone will try to jam it and mutter some nonsense about living dangerously.

[Koby]

The best analogy is Gush. People in Vintage do not play Gush with Bob because of the damage, so I see no reason why Treasure Cruise would be any different. Still, TC draws you one more card, so you never know. Maybe someone will try to jam it and mutter some nonsense about living dangerously.

This is patently false. Gush with Bob is known as sometimes known as Suicide Jace decks, here's a few links to such lists:
Pyro Gush by Smennen - Sept '13 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12108&iddeck=88726)
Control Slaver - Aug '13 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11331&iddeck=82723)
Cobra Gush - June '13 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11179&iddeck=81658)
Grow-a-Tog by Jake Gans - Feb '12 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=7720&iddeck=56177)

[Megadeus]

I've debated playing tombstalker in dead guy. Because fuck it. I play batterskull and shriekmaw now. Every once in awhile it sucks, but whatever

[thecrav]

This is patently false. Gush with Bob is known as sometimes known as Suicide Jace decks, here's a few links to such lists:
Pyro Gush by Smennen - Sept '13 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12108&iddeck=88726)
Control Slaver - Aug '13 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11331&iddeck=82723)
Cobra Gush - June '13 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11179&iddeck=81658)
Grow-a-Tog by Jake Gans - Feb '12 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=7720&iddeck=56177)

I can't speak for the rest of them but I played Smennen's pyrogush deck -1 flusterstorm +1 skullclamp and loved it. Most of the time, you're only going to have Bob out for a few turns before you attempt to go off. As he pointed out in the thread on the matter, you also make a lot of "chip shot" Tendrils - have a Pyro out, play some spells, Tendrils for 8 or 10 and pass turn with a bunch of dudes in play.

[L0cke]

I've debated playing tombstalker in dead guy. Because fuck it. I play batterskull and shriekmaw now. Every once in awhile it sucks, but whatever

I played 4 Bobs 2 Tombstalkers for months. I flipped tombstalker 3 times in about 70 games. Which was probably running lucky, but cantrips and top helped.

[Richard Cheese]

I can't speak for the rest of them but I played Smennen's pyrogush deck -1 flusterstorm +1 skullclamp and loved it. Most of the time, you're only going to have Bob out for a few turns before you attempt to go off. As he pointed out in the thread on the matter, you also make a lot of "chip shot" Tendrils - have a Pyro out, play some spells, Tendrils for 8 or 10 and pass turn with a bunch of dudes in play.

Can you post a link to that thread? This deck looks super interesting, and I'm wondering if something similar could be done in Legacy, but I'd like a better understanding of the original.

[thecrav]

Can you post a link to that thread? This deck looks super interesting, and I'm wondering if something similar could be done in Legacy, but I'd like a better understanding of the original.

It's a results thread, so the discussion is all over the place but here's a link: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=45671.msg632143#msg632143

[Richard Cheese]

It's a results thread, so the discussion is all over the place but here's a link: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=45671.msg632143#msg632143

Thanks, now I just have to find the Grow primer he mentions.

Are the maindeck FoWs just a concession to the power level of early plays in Vintage, or are they more central to the deck's strategy than I'm giving them credit for? I'm trying to put together something similar for Legacy, but getting the mana right without Gush/Fastbond or Moxen/Lotus is...challenging.

[thecrav]

Thanks, now I just have to find the Grow primer he mentions.

I think this is what he's referring to. (http://www.eternalcentral.com/so-many-insane-plays-its-a-young-mancers-game-grow-2013/) (Paid product)

I purchased it when it first came out because I'm a huge Pyromancer fan but I don't recall it being super fantastic. I'll see if I can find the PDF later tonight and give you the Cliff's notes.

[QUOTE=Richard Cheese;839046]
Are the maindeck FoWs just a concession to the power level of early plays in Vintage, or are they more central to the deck's strategy than I'm giving them credit for? I'm trying to put together something similar for Legacy, but getting the mana right without Gush/Fastbond or Moxen/Lotus is...challenging.

Yes, I believe that they are. However, getting 1 or more pyromancer tokens AND countering a spell for 0 mana is a pretty nice. I think I've mentioned it on the cast before but I find myself casting a lot more "value" counters with pyromancer. For example, Daze when they've got mana open. I'm probably not going to counter their spell but I get a guy for free and maybe they're not able to make their planned follow up play.

I agree that the lack of fast mana is a big challenge. Ideally, you'd like to have Pyromancer as early as turn 1 and start cantripping like crazy from there. Without fast mana, your best bet for an elemental token that can attack on turn 3 is using free countermagic.

I think one way to go would be to start with something like:

4 Young Pyromancer
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
2 Grapeshot
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

[Richard Cheese]

It's really interesting just how well Young Peezy and Monastery Swagspear work in a combo shell. Threw together a super rough list in Cockatrice to goldfish, and while it's not going to break the format, it's surprisingly capable. This is what I have so far:


4 Young Pyromancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear

4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
3 Treasure Cruise

4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
2 Culling the Weak

3 Diabolic Intent
1 Tendrils of Agony

3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn


I'm not sure if that's worth starting a thread for yet, since it's more like the idea for a deck than a finished list, but if nothing else I'm seeing that Swiftspear is a way more interesting card than I originally gave it credit for.