Jeskai Ascendency Combo [Archive]

Valtrix

10-05-2014, 04:06 AM

With Jeskai Ascendancy spoiled and tearing up modern, I was curious what I could do with it in Legacy. For those unfamiliar with this card, if you have a mana producing creature in play, you can go nearly infinite by chaining cantrips. It almost feels like a 1 card combo though, since you can afford to run a large number of pieces of the mana dork part of your combo so they really easy to find, and if ascendency hits play it helps you draw into one easily. What I really love about this combo is that neither of the pieces are bad, in fact mana dorks and ascendency both actively help your gameplan.

Below is the list I've currently built. I have yet to test in real games yet as I needed to fish a bunch to get the mechanics and coloration down right. (As well as being busy with other things.) The list is remarkably consistent--wishes provide a lot of redundancy and you should expect to "go off" by turn three in most games, often with protection. Lots of things to tweak of course, but I think it's a reasonable starting point.

1 Treasure Cruise
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Preordain
3 Manamorphose

4 Glittering Wish
3 Jeskai Ascendancy

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Caryatid

4 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga
3 Mana Confluence
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
SB: 1 Jeskai Ascendancy
SB: 1 Kiora's Follower
SB: 1 Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 Reborn Hope
SB: 1 Guttural Response
SB: 1 Fiery Justice
SB: 1 Flesh // Blood
SB: 1 Forest
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 Free slots

A couple notes, in no particular order:

You can win on turn two if you're lucky with a gitaxian probe. Gitaxian probe and manamorphose both generate +1 mana when an ascendancy out. You can later use this mana to get a second ascendency into play, then every cantrip generates two mana and you can access your wishboard. (In some strange case where you can't attack or something for some reason...)

You almost never fizzle. The extra draw/discard on top of the power legacy's cantrips, as well as top getting you an extra draw/discard each spell lets you keep going easily.

Colors are important. Make sure you think about them. I think the mana base could use some work right now, but I'm not sure how.

There really are no other cmc 1 mana creatures which can get you blue unfortuantely. I think this is fine as GSZ is pretty great, letting you get protection or acceleration or postboard games helping fight through a counterbalance or some such.

You can win through Thalia with two ascendencies or two mana dorks; it's pretty fun.

Sensei's divining top gives you an extra draw/discard per spell and with both of them they can infinitely chain together (jeskai draw effect is a may).

If the SB forest looks odd, it really is. It's mostly there to bring against against blood moon, though I'm sure there are other times when an extra land might be nice.

Treasure cruise has actually been pretty awkward. Most of the time I want cards to develop my early plays to just sculpt a hand to combo off. It's a lot better to fight against a lot of counters, but if that's the case I feel like other pro-active protection might be nice. Often cruise is not doing anything before you want to actually combo. I think the 4th GSZ and 4th Xantid swarm in the main might be better.

Xantid is almost certainly the best protection for us. First, we can play it proactively. Next, it handles opponent's hands which have multiple counterspells. We can also zenith for it, which is not irrelevant. When sculpting hands I often don't need extra mana dorks, so I'll zenith for a swarm while I try to find an ascendancy. It dodges many of the effective counterspells vs. our deck: spellsnare (vs. wish), spell pierce, and swan song. You might be wondering, "But if you attack with swarm, then you can't swing in with a big guy from ascendancy that turn?" That's what the Flesh//Blood is for in the sideboard. Lastly, swarm really strains enemy creature removal since the opponent will usually need to use it on mana dorks.

Anyway, that's all I have for no. Sorry for no real results; I tend to just build a lot more than play. If anybody has thoughts, that would be awesome. Note that I don't have any idea of the power level of a deck of this style; I just really like some aspects of jeskai ascendency so I was interesting in finding what a Legacy version of this deck would look like.

Barook

10-05-2014, 05:52 AM

I wonder if Dryad Arbor is worthy inclusion to the deck, considering you run fetches and GSZ. It gets untapped with Ascendency, but only generates green mana.

How would Lotus Petals work for the deck?

I would also run 4x Treasure Cruise.

A Modern list in action (http://www.twitch.tv/channelfireball/c/5228654)

ivanpei

10-05-2014, 07:11 AM

We have enlightened tutor no? Seems much faster than Glittering Wish. Anyway this deck seems pretty fun.

I would also prefer discard in this sort of deck but that would stretch the Mana too much. I don't think deck is competitive but looks super fun. The Mana dorks are really fragile to any sort of removal and Ascendency can be stopped by counters and abrupt decay.

apple713

10-05-2014, 08:19 AM

This deck probably is better suited for modern for the above mentioned reasons. The deck is fragile like belcher and cannot effectively defend itself because in doing so you will disrupt the combo's efficiency.

rufus

10-05-2014, 10:26 AM

...
There really are no other cmc 1 mana creatures which can get you blue unfortuantely. I think this is fine as GSZ is pretty great, letting you get protection or acceleration or postboard games helping fight through a counterbalance or some such.
...

There is Fatestitcher (which fits the deck well) and possibly Goblin Welder and :u: producing artifacts. Though neither will make turn 2 wins easy. Similarly something like Postmorten Lunge might be an OK fit.

There probably isn't room for it, but Pyromancer Ascension likes similar cards.

Valtrix

10-05-2014, 12:51 PM

I wonder if Dryad Arbor is worthy inclusion to the deck, considering you run fetches and GSZ. It gets untapped with Ascendency, but only generates green mana.

I thought about it too, but I don't think it's worth it. Generating green mana is not actually super great for you, and you can't combo off with it.

How would Lotus Petals work for the deck?

I don't think temporary mana is what this deck wants. It doesn't really help you combo sooner, since you always need a mana dork who isn't summoning sick.

I would also run 4x Treasure Cruise.

How come? It seems nice, but it really slows you down. You can almost never cast it before turn 5, but this deck wants to aim to go off on turn 3 every game. I think 2 is a good number to help you see when when you need that effect, but not gum up your hand otherwise. Draw 3s are very powerful, but it's hard to say. I don't think more than 3 would be a good idea though; multiples will crush you.

This deck probably is better suited for modern for the above mentioned reasons. The deck is fragile like belcher and cannot effectively defend itself because in doing so you will disrupt the combo's efficiency.

This deck is by no means as fragile as belcher. With belcher you have no hope of rebuilding and no cantrips to help sculpt your hand. Yes, you are very reliant on a single card, but normal storm is basically too--I win so often against normal storm because I'm able to stop their infernal tutor or glittering wish. But, when they try to go off and get their key spell countered they tend to lose cards due to all their temporary mana you set off.

Also, because this deck runs so many persistent mana sources (16 + 11 potenial mana dorks), this lets you cast a lot of cards per turn and can chain a lot of cantrips to sculpt your hand quickly. Compare to normal storm which has way very persistent mana sources. They have more mana on their combo turn, but they have way fewer permanent mana sources, so their setup turns are going to be slower than us because they have a lot less mana with which to cast their spells. When I first started testing I definitely overlooked how much dig I could do in one turn given to the high amount of mana sources in the deck.

We have enlightened tutor no? Seems much faster than Glittering Wish. Anyway this deck seems pretty fun.

I considered tutor. However, I think the card disadvantage is too much. You really want to keep all of your cards, especially in the face of disruption. Paying an extra G and sorcery speed is well worth that tradeoff. Wish is just way more flexible too; it lets you get both pieces of your combo (with Kiora's Follower) and lets you win outside of combat phase with Flesh // Blood, which is very relevant when using xantid swarm as protection. I agree that the deck is really fun!

I would also prefer discard in this sort of deck but that would stretch the Mana too much.

Do you think discard is actually better than xantid swarm? I named a lot of reasons in the opening post why xantid swarm is amazing protection. In short:

Fights through multiple counterspells
Proactive, meaning less mana is required on the combo turn
Dies to removal, but since the opponent also has to deal with mana dorks their removal gets very strained.
Gets around many of the main ways people might deal with our deck: spell snare, spell pierce, swan song, flusterstorm, red elemental blast, and abrupt decay on ascendancy.
Protects you every single turn. This means you can chain cantrips unmolested, and it makes the game scary for your opponent because they have to do anything before the swarm trigger resolves or risk losing on the spot.
Can be got with GSZ. Gives you combo or proteciton flexibility.

I don't think deck is competitive but looks super fun. The Mana dorks are really fragile to any sort of removal and Ascendency can be stopped by counters and abrupt decay.

Yeah, the deck is definitely super fun. I think that I have too high of hopes for what this deck might be able to accomplish, but I also think the deck is far less fragile than it seems. There is so much dig with all the cantrips (you actually run more than normal storm combo), and every card you draw is always helping your game plan. Your mana guys can die, but when you run 11-12 of them + a ridiculous amount of cantrips, most opposing decks won't have enough removal for all of them. Additionally they have to deal with ascendancy, which if it sticks it's very likely your opponent will lose. An extra draw/discard for every non-creature you play will find you a mana dork very easily.

I'll be testing it out more when I get some time. I remain hopeful, even though I don't really know what to expect out of it.

apple713

10-05-2014, 12:53 PM

There is Fatestitcher (which fits the deck well) and possibly Goblin Welder and :u: producing artifacts. Though neither will make turn 2 wins easy. Similarly something like Postmorten Lunge might be an OK fit.

There probably isn't room for it, but Pyromancer Ascension likes similar cards.

Fatestitcher is the perfect card because its essentially free to cast and increases the overall mana production of each spell.

It is the perfect card to draw into because it provides benefit when you discard it so ot turns normal disadvantage into advantage.

Jeskai might be better in a madness shelll with vengevines for legacy. It would allow you to play protection spells as well.

Darkenslight

10-05-2014, 01:24 PM

I would seriously consider removing BoP in favour of Sylvan Caryatid, although the flying on the Birds is definitely a bonus. One of the things to note is that you can go infinite with View From Above, because the Ascendancy is white.

Valtrix

10-05-2014, 01:49 PM

I was running Sylvan Caryatid originally, but then changed them in favor of green sun's zenith to have more consistency in getting xantid swarm and then pridemage post board. Thinking about it now, the deck should definitely have access to at least one caryatid to get with zenith. Not sure if caryatid is just more useful than zenith in general though.

Flying is largely irrelevant. When you go off you can always just get Flesh // Blood to end the game without the combat step.

I think top is the best way to "go-infinite." A single top is incredibly useful setting up, it's great when going off as an extra draw/discard and pump per every spell, and if you get both then you do just go infinite.

Fatestitcher definteily doesn't strike me as a main card. It's potentially useful vs. opposing removal, but largely I'd rather just play a creature that helps cast my entire deck as opposed to something I need to pitch to ascendancy.

rufus

10-05-2014, 03:03 PM

...

Fatestitcher definteily doesn't strike me as a main card. It's potentially useful vs. opposing removal, but largely I'd rather just play a creature that helps cast my entire deck as opposed to something I need to pitch to ascendancy.

I had been contemplating a similar sort of deck, but just with URW. To make that work well, I was looking at stuff like Faithless Looting and Careful Study.

If you can pop a couple of hasty bodies onto the field with Fatestitcher or Postmortem Lunge then you can also win by swinging with pumped up weenies.

Barook

10-05-2014, 03:48 PM

How come? It seems nice, but it really slows you down. You can almost never cast it before turn 5, but this deck wants to aim to go off on turn 3 every game. I think 2 is a good number to help you see when when you need that effect, but not gum up your hand otherwise. Draw 3s are very powerful, but it's hard to say. I don't think more than 3 would be a good idea though; multiples will crush you.
You cast them when you go off. Watch the video I linked.

I still don't think that the deck is viable when you could play Elves instead. All that -1/-1 hate is going to hurt you, and free counters are a bitch.

apple713

10-05-2014, 05:09 PM

sylvan cartyid makes the deck viable imo because its immune more or less to removal which is the decks major weakness. At least having 1 for GSZ is critical

really all you need is 2 tops, 1 mana producing creature / dryad arbor, and jeskai. you can insert that into any number of shells. If you want aggro secondary no problem, or you can even use it in a counterbalance type strategy

MGB

10-05-2014, 05:45 PM

When assessing Combo decks in Legacy, you have to ask yourself the following questions:

1.) Does this play more or better disruption and/or countermagic than ANT/TES/Show'n'Tell?

and if not, then:

2.) Is this faster or more resilient than Belcher or Dredge?

I think the answer with regard to this deck in both cases is "No".

thefreakaccident

10-05-2014, 07:34 PM

I like this deck quite a lot. A one-card combo is always fun. Killing with birds of paradise? Even better.

why

10-06-2014, 08:30 AM

There are a bunch of things I don't like with this list.

- Xantid Swarm as the disruption of choice seems odd. We can just run Force of Will / Daze, which are much more versatile. I like multiple Sylvan Caryatids- I don't want to Green Sun's Zenith and find a dork when I can just play a Caryatid.
- Two of top seems very wrong. The card is only great when you have both here, so I think it's better to be all or nothing with it. I'd much rather be on none.
- You cut Cerulean Wisps from modern, which puts you down on free spells by a lot. I'm not sure there's enough now. Lotus Petal seems perfect for this deck.
- Your manabase seems far too dual heavy. This is a deck with stringent mana requirements. Drawing duals instead of fetches gives you no options and might just not let you cast your Ascendancy

I'm also just uncertain overall that this is an actual plan in Legacy, since it's just a port from modern and the only real upgrades are the cantrips.

Here's something I might try:

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Treasure Cruise
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Manamorphose
2 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Glittering Wish
3 Jeskai Ascendancy

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Sylvan Caryatid

15 lands
4 Lotus Petal

Quizzlemanizzle

10-06-2014, 11:02 AM

I am not sure that the legacy version of this deck needs Glittering Wish considering that you can play burning wish and fetchlands and 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Gitaxian Probe and 4 Preordain

Also Sensei's Diving Top+Dryard Arbor and GSZ

Enlightened Tutor if you want and if you want to get your kill spell from the sideboard you can use Burning Wish.

I would also play a couple of Arbor Elfs since they can untap Tropical Island and function like Birds of Paradise and Noble Hierarch because of that.

Lotus Petal I think is wrong. What does it do for you? You need a turn 1 dork into turn 2 Ascendancy and Gitaxian Probe really. If you can't consistently do that you are likely too slow. Lotus Petal does not help you speed it up since you would need triple Petal to go turn 1 dork and ascendacy but even then you still have to wait for turn 2 to tap your dork for mana..

rufus

10-06-2014, 11:19 AM

- Xantid Swarm as the disruption of choice seems odd. We can just run Force of Will / Daze, which are much more versatile. I like multiple Sylvan Caryatids- I don't want to Green Sun's Zenith and find a dork when I can just play a Caryatid.

I think a big issue with swarm that you don't mention is that using the disruption gives up the ability to attack, and swinging for the win would otherwise be a plausible line of play.

- Two of top seems very wrong. The card is only great when you have both here, so I think it's better to be all or nothing with it. I'd much rather be on none.

Sensei's Divining Top is pretty good if you have Jeskai Ascendancy+mana creature on-line: You can activate it before casting some other spell, cycle it back into your hand, and then recast it to double on on ascendancy triggers, and it's a solid card with fetchlands (or other shuffle effects).

In a deck like this, it seems that something like Bloom tender could be better than Caryatid.

Quizzlemanizzle

10-06-2014, 11:23 AM

And yes Bloom Tender seems decent.

This deck needs some silver bullets for GSZ.

Bloom Tender against other combos, Sylvan Caryatid against removal heavy decks and so on. Then you probably need some silver bullets to hate other decks like Scavenging Ooze.

Valtrix

10-06-2014, 11:34 AM

You cast them when you go off. Watch the video I linked.

Yes I understand, but I don't think the legacy version needs them really, at least they're not needed at all for comboing off in my experience. In modern they only get two "good" 1 cmc cantrips: serum visions and slight of hand. Not only do we get better filter cantrips, we get more of them. As a result when I combo off I don't ever really need the draw 3. It tends to clutter up my hand when all I'm trying to do is dig for my combo. That said, cruise is definitely a powerful card, so I'd be hesitant to cut it completely. 3-4 just seems too high for me.

I still don't think that the deck is viable when you could play Elves instead. All that -1/-1 hate is going to hurt you, and free counters are a bitch.

This is a fair statement, since elves does the "play and draw a lot of things in one turn" thing. It has more other options, but is not really a "1-card combo." I think in practice these two decks play out very differently.

sylvan cartyid makes the deck viable imo because its immune more or less to removal which is the decks major weakness. At least having 1 for GSZ is critical

I agree, I added 1 to my original list. Thinking about it more, they do seem more and more powerful to me. I just really like Zenith's flexibility and to give more options vs. counterbalance post-board. I think it's probably more relevant than the hexproof in general, but maybe that's just me.

really all you need is 2 tops, 1 mana producing creature / dryad arbor, and jeskai. you can insert that into any number of shells. If you want aggro secondary no problem, or you can even use it in a counterbalance type strategy

This is a good point with arbor; I hadn't considered using it with just two tops to go infinite. If I increased the number of tops, then arbor would be significantly better. I'm not sure exactly how I would support this in the current list though, but I will think about it.

When assessing Combo decks in Legacy, you have to ask yourself the following questions:

1.) Does this play more or better disruption and/or countermagic than ANT/TES/Show'n'Tell?

I think xantid swarm is completely viable and powerful protection. I'm not sure that you can compare to these decks just based on disruption/countermagic alone, but these decks are for sure very strong and set a high bar for anything to compete against. What I will say that Jeskai has as a big advantage over these two decks is that everything you draw is helpful for you right away. That is, everything you get helps you with your game plan, which is a pretty big deal in my opinion. No dead griselbrands in hand. Over storm decks I think that you lose a lot less if your attempts to combo get stopped; all your mana sources are permanent. There are other issues the deck has, of course, but I don't think the comparison here is strictly about protection.

and if not, then:

2.) Is this faster or more resilient than Belcher or Dredge?

It's not as fast as either of these decks, but it is far, far more resilient even if on paper you see that you have a creature + blue enchantment combo. The huge amount of cantrips and wish gives you a lot of power and flexibility. Plus, I don't consider the deck to truly be "slow."

There are a bunch of things I don't like with this list.

- Xantid Swarm as the disruption of choice seems odd. We can just run Force of Will / Daze, which are much more versatile. I like multiple Sylvan Caryatids- I don't want to Green Sun's Zenith and find a dork when I can just play a Caryatid.
- Two of top seems very wrong. The card is only great when you have both here, so I think it's better to be all or nothing with it. I'd much rather be on none.
- You cut Cerulean Wisps from modern, which puts you down on free spells by a lot. I'm not sure there's enough now. Lotus Petal seems perfect for this deck.
- Your manabase seems far too dual heavy. This is a deck with stringent mana requirements. Drawing duals instead of fetches gives you no options and might just not let you cast your Ascendancy

I put in the opening post several reasons why I think xantid swarm is the best protection we can run, and I stand by that. TES often runs (or did run) swarm in the sideboard, and they barely play green. We actively need green, so it makes a lot of sense to play swarm. I know that "dying to removal," seems bad, but given that the other half of our combo is creatures I think people would often rather want to use their precious removal on those creatures.

Daze is just not good here since the odds of turn 2 combos are not very good. Reanimator doesn't really even play daze either, so I'm not sure why you think it would be good here. Stable disruption is far better, since you have plenty of mana before you go for jeskai to just win. Force of will's card is always a card to consider. I just think that the card disadvantage is too much for the deck to support. I think more redundancy or, again, stable disruption is better.

Ceruelan wisps is played in modern because they don't have enough good 1 cmc cantrips to run otherwise. It's not actually that great for them, but they are kind of forced into it. In practice you'll have plenty of mana to cast normal (and better) cantrips, and you just don't need the mana it provides when you combo off.

I am not sure that the legacy version of this deck needs Glittering Wish considering that you can play fetchlands and 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Gitaxian Probe and 4 Preordain

I think Glittering Wish is necessary. It gives you the resiliency and consistency you need. 7 ways to get your "1-card" combo is far better than 4, especially when your first gets countered. Also it lets you get flesh//blood which lets you combo out with sylvan caraytids or post-combat after attacking with xantid swarm.

Also Sensei's Diving Top and Enlightened Tutor if you want.

I like top a lot. I had 4 originally but felt it was a bit clunky since I wanted to find things right away. Enlightened tutor is just worse than wish I think. With the mana dorks you have plenty of mana and you just don't want the card disadvantage, especially if the ascension gets countered.

Thanks for all the feedback guys, I'd love to keep discussion about the deck going. Sorry if I sound "heavy-handed" in any of my responses.

rufus

10-06-2014, 12:12 PM

...

Thanks for all the feedback guys, I'd love to keep discussion about the deck going. Sorry if I sound "heavy-handed" in any of my responses.

There are many ways something could work. For example, Enlightened Tutor and Glittering Wish can fill similar roles.

It feels like there are many cards that could work well in a deck like this that we're not discussing. Stuff like Abeyance,Silence,Obsessive Search,Tithe, Land Grant, Noxious Revival, Postmortem Lunge, Animate Land, Verdant Touch, Burning Wish,Laboratory Maniac and Past In Flames comes to mind.

I had originally thought in terms of a looting oriented approach with Careful Study,Faithless Looting,Goblin Welder, and Fatestitcher.

Mystical_Jackass

10-06-2014, 12:17 PM

I hate to throw it out there, but 'cause the deck looks so similar... any reason not to toss in NO-->Proj?

Daize

10-06-2014, 12:20 PM

Try to find a multicoloured card advantage spell for your sideboard to wish for, just in case.

ReAnimator

10-06-2014, 12:23 PM

Abeyance

^This!

I was thinking about this deck in Legacy as well, and then found this thread. Glad someone brought up this card, it seems like everything you would ever want to be doing in this deck, shuts off Decay, counters, and still helps you going off as well, total slam dunk. I think you could still run 1 Xantid as a GSZ target, but i think you want 4 x Abeyance for sure.
I also think 4x Caryatid is necessary, shuts down so many opposing cards that can stop you.

I can understand a lot of people being sceptical about this deck in legacy, having seen it in action in Modern it is waaaayyy better against disruption than you would think, it is really strong and flexible against hate. Obviously the barrier to entry is really high in Legacy, but this has a ton of power and flexibility and the fact that your combo pieces aren't dead cards but actually help you set up and accelerate is super strong. Not 100% saying this is going to be a format staple, but i wouldn't be suprised at all if this ends up being a viable deck in the format, there have been way way worse combo decks that have been fringe playable before that are way below this on the power and durability scale.

apple713

10-06-2014, 12:57 PM

@ valtrix

You need to identify a few things for us (people making recommendations).

1. Identify the Variable card slots so people making suggestions know where to look first.
2. Identify the deck's shortcomings. Does the deck need consistency in finding the combo? Does it have trouble chaining spells together? Does it need more mana creatures? does it have a hard time recovering from creature removal?

suggestions
-1 treasure cruise - there are 2 problems here, its conditional which decreases consistency, and this is a win more card if you are really in a situation where you NEED to draw 3 cards and hope to come out victorious, you are probably not going to win anyways.
-1 preordain - addition win con is better (SDT)
+2 Sensei's divining top - per our discussion

-3 mana confluence - fetch lands serve 3 purposes, they get you what colors you need, and they decrease the fluff you will draw when you are trying to combo off. Additionally they work better with brainstorm/ponder.
+2 fetchlands - ^
+1 dryad arbor - per our discussion

@ rufus

enlightened tutor seems good but the card disadvantage hurts. Glittering Wish is better imo.

As for your other suggestions, I'm surprised that the shitty cards that they are actually serve good purposes. The issue from here is narrowing down what is more important because as you can tell the deck is lacking variable slots....

When thinking about cards to add to the deck you have to ask the following questions

1. Does this help me find the combo? Step 1
2. Does this help me dig once the combo is out? Step 2
3. Does this generate some sort of card advantage that can be used? step 3
4. Is this card conditional or am i just gonna want it in case that has a small chance of occurring?
*5. Does this card better at what it does than a card already included?
EDIT*

Brainstorm, ponder, preordain are ideal, they answer positive to all the above questions (1) yes (2) yes (3) yes (4) no

Possible inclusions - we need to know what the deck is lacking before we start jamming these specific cards into the deck.

postmortem lunge - (maybe) (1) no (2) sorta, free spell but no real card advantage (3) it gives you another mana producing creature that is unaffected by summoning sickness. (4) yes conditional because you need a creature in grave
animate land - (maybe) this card is trash normally, but in here its great, it triggers jeskai, it gives you another mana producing creature that is unaffected by summoning sickness. This is great for when you are in the middle of chaining and for if you need to recover from opponent killing creatures. Only issue is do we need more mana or is it mainly just to recover from creature loss / in place of?
and grant - (maybe) (1) no (2) no (3) sorta, its a free spell that cantrips poorly, similar to tithe, thins and feeds jeskai (4) requires a green land, but not as conditional, better if you missed a land drop
noxious revival - (maybe) (1) no (2) sorta, free spell but no real card advantage (3) this gets your most advantageous card in grave in hopes to generate advantage (4) yes you have to have the card in grave for this to be relevant.

tithe - (no) (1) no (2) no (3) maybe if you haven't played a land drop, and gives you cards to feed to jeskai, and thins deck (4) yes conditional. probably not enough upside to include
verdant touch - (no) more mana intensive than animate land and they buyback while nice is too expensive to take advantage of.
burning wish - (no) this doesn't answer yes to any of the above questions...
laboratory maniac - (no) you should win well before you chain your entire deck
past in flames - (no) great card, too mana intensive, the deck really wants to only need 1 mana producer to be able to start chaining spells

Substitutes for Xantid swarm / additional sideboard cards
abeyance - (maybe) serves similar purpose as xantid swarm but cannot be GSZ'd out. Cant be killed. More mana intensive than other options.
orim's chant (maybe) ^
silence (maybe) ^

welder and study are more for a graveyard approach that only weakens the deck. fate stitcher has been addressed previously.

EDIT***

I started gold fishing with the deck and noticed a few things

its incredibly important that a spell cantrips. multiple jeskai's help but aren't necessary.

Having spells that only cost 1 mana reduces the need for more than 1 mana producing creature.

having 2 SDT just wins, while may not be necessary it eliminates the possibility of fizzle. In the event that you only have 1 but can produce more than 1 mana each spell, you get to look at top 3 every spell which is incredibly helpful when you cast things blindly, like gitaxian probe, gsz, or glittering wish.

the only thing i havent been able to test is if my creatures are getting killed / and if once they are pumped they can attack? i guess through infinite chaining i can just glittering wish for something, a storm spell or creature unblock able, idk.

rufus

10-06-2014, 03:07 PM

...
-1 Treasure Cruise
...
its incredibly important that a spell cantrips. multiple jeskai's help but aren't necessary.

I think that cards which have good potential provide real card advantage like Obsessive Search,Tithe and Treasure Cruise are particularly interesting. If those are too conditional maybe something like Ideas Unbound..

Another category of cantrips is the chromatic/egg familiy

Daize

10-06-2014, 03:35 PM

Ideas Unbound is a great one. Also, when your hand isn't that full at all, it seems difficult to keep the flow going. In that case, hitting a Treasure Cruise is amazing. Ideas Unbound is an interesting one but seems a bit too much of a "while you're winning" card, else it seems bad. Though what the heck, try stuff out!

apple713

10-06-2014, 03:36 PM

I think that cards which have good potential provide real card advantage like Obsessive Search,Tithe and Treasure Cruise are particularly interesting. If those are too conditional maybe something like Ideas Unbound..

Another category of cantrips is the chromatic/egg familiy

Ideas unbound is probably the best suggestion because unlike treasure cruise it is not conditional and since you plan to win on the turn you cast it its drawback is irrelevant. My concern is that it cost 2 which could be an issue but because the advantage is so great it might be worth it.

When considering chromatic star / egg and tithe consider whether or not they serve a purpose relevant to the decks objective, and if what they do is better than what is already included. In consideration of those factors they probably do not warrant a spot.

Obsessive search is interesting because it fills the role of card advantage but that advantage is blind, you can't ensure the card you draw is useful. Having too many spells like this will decrease the consistency and you will end up fizzling with lands and creatures in hand.

why

10-06-2014, 03:53 PM

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Treasure Cruise
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Manamorphose
2 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Glittering Wish
3 Jeskai Ascendancy

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Sylvan Caryatid

15 lands
3 Lotus Petal

This list is sweet and I think it's way better than the one in the op.

- Lotus Petal is extremely good here, it increases your turn two win percentage by a lot, generates a bunch of mana, is playable during the combo, and is mana positive with Ascendancy out. There's some downside, but this is a deck that goes off fairly quickly- there's not much reason to bother having many lands in play. The correct number might not be four, but it is definitely greater than zero.
- The main upsides of the modern list are Sylvan Caryatid and Treasure Cruise. Those cards offer the ability to have a unkillable mana dork and give you the ability to grind out games against opponents that can disrupt you. I want to be playing more of them, and I'm certainly playing all four Caryatids before I touch a card like Green Sun's Zenith and I think I'm playing too few Treasure Cruise.
- Daze is a good card, but you can play a different interactive spell if you really want. Daze is at least something you can cast on your own spell and pay for to get a "free" loot while comboing off, which is why I chose it. I'm not sure how many interactive spells you can actually play- there's a chance these should just be cantrips, because you need a certain density when comboing and this might be too low. You can definitely stretch the number a little bit more if your non-cantrip cards contribute to the combo somewhat, like Daze.

Any card that requires Jeskai Ascendancy and a mana dork to be in play to be good is awful. You have to understand that having both in play with a mana floating is a won game. You don't need anything else. Sensei's Divining Top is an expensive and slow card before you are going off and it doesn't matter what it is after you go off. I think the card is just outclassed by Treasure Cruise at this point, except in decks that are heavily synergistic with top or very reliant on the graveyard (and this is neither). Bloom Tender is awful because there's no reason to go bigger than just a mana dork + ascendancy.

I think the direction this thread is taking the deck in isn't very good.

Darkenslight

10-06-2014, 04:38 PM

Alternatives include playing a ton of 0-and-1-cost spells, given that the Ascendancy triggers on cast, rather than on resolution. That way, you can probably chain into a huge Grapeshot or two as win conditions.

ivanpei

10-06-2014, 08:39 PM

I would prefer to run a slower but more resistant build with 4 Caryatids and 4 GSZ. Zero birds and zero Heirarch. This makes the deck creature removal resistant. Then pack stuff like Force/Abeyance etc like a regular combo deck. Trying to win past removal AND counters seems very difficult. Has the same issues ala painter except this deck doesn't have moons of Chalice.

zulander

10-06-2014, 08:57 PM

Valtrix

10-06-2014, 09:10 PM

I can understand a lot of people being sceptical about this deck in legacy, having seen it in action in Modern it is waaaayyy better against disruption than you would think, it is really strong and flexible against hate. Obviously the barrier to entry is really high in Legacy, but this has a ton of power and flexibility and the fact that your combo pieces aren't dead cards but actually help you set up and accelerate is super strong. Not 100% saying this is going to be a format staple, but i wouldn't be suprised at all if this ends up being a viable deck in the format, there have been way way worse combo decks that have been fringe playable before that are way below this on the power and durability scale.

Exactly this.

What would be your win condition? [with only Sylvan Caryatids]

In terms of winning outside of combat, this is what Flesh // Blood is for out of the wishboard.

I would prefer to run a slower but more resistant build with 4 Caryatids and 4 GSZ. Zero birds and zero Heirarch. This makes the deck creature removal resistant. Then pack stuff like Force/Abeyance etc like a regular combo deck. Trying to win past removal AND counters seems very difficult. Has the same issues ala painter except this deck doesn't have moons of Chalice.

Running no birds or hierarch definitely sounds like an interesting approach. You'd want to include at least one to GSZ for X = 1 still, but overall it's a really interesting idea. I like it though. 11-12 mana dorks is still a large number though. part of why Painter struggles is that they don't have access to many painters and the card is just bad by itself. Mana creatures really let you do so much early you can afford to run a lot of them and not feel bad.

I found an interesting SB card to potentially replace Kiora's Follower: Life // Death. Turning a wish into a potential win right away seems powerful. In general there are also the animate land enchantments ( Wind Zendikon, Genju of the falls and company). In general I don't like these cards, but they are worth at least knowing about.

Arbor elf is actually really awkward and doubly so because it's only forests he untaps. It's really helpful to have your mana dorks make colored mana not tied to your lands. This helps you against wasteland and helps color consistency. Being a 4-color deck this is quite important. This is why Bloom Tender is actually not good, because it doesn't make any colors you don't already have.

As for Abeyance, that was actually the very first card I wanted to test in the shell. I found that in practice though it was pretty awkward. First off, 2 mana for a cantrip meant it got clogged in my hand when I wanted to combo off. But secondly, asking for 1W + WRB + U (cantrip) on your combo turn is a lot of mana to ask. I think playing a pro-active or cheap spell is probably the best way to go, but I'm really not sure the best protection/long term advantage direction that this deck should go.

Really not sure about Lotus Petals. I'm not sure how much they would actually increase speed. I tend to prefer more resiliency overall with consistent mana sources, but I'm not willing to dismiss them completely. 4 seems like a lot though.

I think treasure cruise might actually have a place in lieu of some protection. I think drawing into three cards to fight attrition might be another viable tactic relative to just protecting the original spells. I'm not completely sure. It's hard because it definitely slows you down any way you slice it.

@apple

I really liked your post, thank you. This is exactly how I approach deck building and how I think more people should critically approach it. By asking what my deck needs and what I might be abe to play to fill in those slots. I think what would be useful is to identify the pieces that we really want or need, and see the room to build from there. I would do it now, but I have some work I need to get done before I can really sit down and tinker with this deck anymore. Sideboarding feels particularly difficult to me as well since everything does so many similar things and it's not clear exactly what needs helping out currently.

apple713

10-06-2014, 09:26 PM

Exactly this.

In terms of winning outside of combat, this is what Flesh // Blood is for out of the wishboard.

Running no birds or hierarch definitely sounds like an interesting approach. You'd want to include at least one to GSZ for X = 1 still, but overall it's a really interesting idea. I like it though. 11-12 mana dorks is still a large number though. part of why Painter struggles is that they don't have access to many painters and the card is just bad by itself. Mana creatures really let you do so much early you can afford to run a lot of them and not feel bad.

I found an interesting SB card to potentially replace Kiora's Follower: Life // Death. Turning a wish into a potential win right away seems powerful.

As for Abeyance, that was actually the very first card I wanted to test in the shell. I found that in practice though it was pretty awkward. First off, 2 mana for a cantrip meant it got clogged in my hand when I wanted to combo off. But secondly, asking for 1W + WRB + U (cantrip) on your combo turn is a lot of mana to ask. I think playing a pro-active or cheap spell is probably the best way to go, but I'm really not sure the best protection/long term advantage direction that this deck should go.

Really not sure about Lotus Petals. I'm not sure how much they would actually increase speed. I tend to prefer more resiliency overall with consistent mana sources, but I'm not willing to dismiss them completely. 4 seems like a lot though.

I think treasure cruise might actually have a place in lieu of some protection. I think drawing into three cards to fight attrition might be another viable tactic relative to just protecting the original spells. I'm not completely sure. It's hard because it definitely slows you down any way you slice it.

@apple

I really liked your post, thank you. This is exactly how I approach deck building by asking what my deck needs and what I might be abe to play to fill in those slots. I think what would be useful is to identify the pieces that we really want or need, and see the room to build from there. I would do it now, but I have some work I need to get done before I can really sit down and tinker with this deck anymore. Sideboarding feels particularly difficult to me as well since everything does so many similar things.

SB is the last thing you worry about since its almost 100% meta dependent.

Life // Death should be a main deck card because it essentially means you have no more mana issues and always multiple win cons. Instant speed board wipes rant common... don't get terminused. Its also worth mentioning that lands can't be abrupt decayed.

Lotus petals improve speed but thats not what this deck needs. with something like Life // Death there are no more mana issues.

I still think that you need mana dorks for acceleration.

You also need something to protect Jeskai. Relying on abeyance or even silence, means 1silence+3jeskai+1cantrip = 5 mana just to get chaining, which i guess isn't bad thats just t3 but that requires mana dorks.

rufus

10-06-2014, 09:33 PM

Taking a step back and looking through gatherer...

Possible 'free cantrip' cards - these are cards that can net cost 0 mana, and can net 0 cards in hand. The assumption is that value can be realized using ascendancy or Brainstorm

Gitaxian Probe
Manamorphose
Summoner's Pact
Land Grant
Tidal Bore

Tidal Bore definitely looks like a potential 4 of to me.

Daze could go on this list too, but it costs :1: while going off.

1 CC cards with potential CA

Obsessive Search
Tithe
Visions of Beyond
Treasure Cruise

I still think Tithe can be really good, especially when combined with Tidal Bore.

2 CC cards with potential CA

Accumulated Knowledge
Gift of Estates
Ideas Unbound
Dig Through Time

Ways to get hasty mana creatures:

Crimson Wisps
Chaos Charm
Postmortem Lunge
Fatestitcher
Life // Death
Anger
Twinflame
Splinter Twin

Ways to find Ascendancy

Enlightened Tutor
Demand
Glittering Wish
Zur the Enchanter
Academy Rector

Ways to go infinite

Sensei's Divining Top
Regrowth
Reborn Hope
...

DireLemming

10-07-2014, 04:08 AM

Darkenslight

10-07-2014, 04:44 AM

Land Grant seems sick here. It increases your non-creature spell density (first as being a spell over a land and when cast by thinning lands from your deck) and with discard from Ascendency, multiples are not dead.

EDIT:

4 land grant
4 bs
4 gitaxian probe
4 manamorphose
4 ponder
4 wish
4 gsz
3 ascendancy
4 force
4 sdt
2 tc

4 caryatid
1 birds
1 swarm
1 dryad arbor

12 lands

goldfishing this for a bit. Reminds me of Spanish Inquisition when it didn't brick, except this never bricks. The number of TC is probably wrong and I could totally see Gaddock main.

I don't think 12 lands is enough - I could seriously see things like Bloom Tender and [card]Chrome Mox[/cards] being in the deck, given that one produces all the required colors of mana and the other is a free spell. I'd also consider [card]Dig Through Time[/cards] over the pure card advantage of TC. Land Grant is definitely something to consider, though, as you can fetch for all of your colors though duals (Savannah, Taiga, Trop).

Quizzlemanizzle

10-07-2014, 06:58 AM

Glittering Wish is just not good imo.

1. It costs 1 more than Enlightened Tutor
2. It reduces your maindeck ascensions to 3 so you have a considerably lesser chance to start with it in hand and cast it on turn 2. It is better to have 4 in the main with all the dig spells that legacy has.
3. If you want to wish for win conditions than Burning Wish can get Grapeshot, Tendris, Flesh/Blood or your choice of kill spell or Cunning Wish for Brain Freeze.

If you have to rely on glittering wish to get Ascendancy I would like to think that your chance to win the game is slow. At that point you would need your dork to survive to turn 3 and deploy Ascendancy on turn 3.

I don't see why anyone would want to play 4 Caryatid but just 1 Bird.

Caryatid is only good against removal but if not that it is just bad, it can't even attack.

Birds of Paradise, Noble Hierarch are nobrainers, they also enable Ascendancy on turn 2. Arbor Elf is decent too.

Something like this is what I would test but I don't think it is good enough for legacy. Seems like a weaker version of Glimpse-Elves.
//Lands
2 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

//Spells
4 Brainstorm
1 Burning Wish
2 Brain freeze
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining Top

//Creatures
1 Arbor Elf
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Bloom Tender
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Sylvan Caryatid

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Treasure Cruise
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony

It still folds to Abrupt Decay and does not consistently win on turn 2 since that requires turn 1 manadork, turn 2 ascendancy and gitaxian probe to start going off, then finding another Gitaxian Probe to generate a 2nd mana and then either win through combat or storming to ~17 with brain freeze.
So several conditions need to be met to win on turn 2 compared to Oops all Spells that has a 50%+ chance to win on turn 1.

This is much slower than Oops, folds to removal instead of graveyard hate and it does not interact with your opponent like regular Storm deck with discard.

It seems that this deck is about as fast as combo Elves but Elves have more alterantive ways to win a game.

apple713

10-07-2014, 10:07 AM

Bloom tender is Only good once you have jeskai out since it doesnt actually produce any of jeskai's colors....kinda a waste imo.

Quizzlemanizzle

10-07-2014, 10:39 AM

Bloom tender is Only good once you have jeskai out since it doesnt actually produce any of jeskai's colors....kinda a waste imo.

Well you have to have Jeskai Ascendancy in play to win, at that point Bloom Tender is the easiest to go off with since he makes 4 mana per tap you get +3 mana of each ponder/brainstorm/preordain etc and can more easily cast Cunning Wish or Burning Wish into Grapeshot/Brain Freeze or just plain Banefire.

Also I think it might be that Chromatic Sphere and Chromatic Star are likely much better than Manamophose.

They can be cast off of 1 mana to untap your manadork, they can be sacced to make any mana and cantrip off of your untapped manadork to continue with any spell.

It depends on how tight mana is. Manamorphose has the advantage of being free, thus creating 1 mana net which is relevant when you have just 1 mana available but need 2 to cast Brain Freeze or a Burning/Cunning Wish. So you need to hit at least 1 Probe during your combo to generate 1 mana.
At that point Manamorphose or Lotus Petal might be needed unless you have 2 active mana dorks/dryad arbors.

rufus

10-07-2014, 11:23 AM

I don't think 12 lands is enough - I could seriously see things like Bloom Tender and [card]Chrome Mox[/cards] being in the deck, given that one produces all the required colors of mana and the other is a free spell. I'd also consider [card]Dig Through Time[/cards] over the pure card advantage of TC. Land Grant is definitely something to consider, though, as you can fetch for all of your colors though duals (Savannah, Taiga, Trop).

He's running Land Grants as proxy lands, so the effective count is closer to 16.

It still folds to Abrupt Decay and does not consistently win on turn 2 since that requires turn 1 manadork, turn 2 ascendancy and gitaxian probe to start going off, then finding another Gitaxian Probe to generate a 2nd mana and then either win through combat or storming to ~17 with brain freeze.
So several conditions need to be met to win on turn 2 compared to Oops all Spells that has a 50%+ chance to win on turn 1.

It also has issues with cards like Lightning Bolt.

Summoner's Pact,Land Grant and Tidal Bore could work in place of Gitaxian Probe to start going off from 0 mana without any net loss of cards, and Lotus Petal has potential too. I'm not sure whether summoner's pact would be any good, but a deck could plausibly run 4 probe, 4 land grant, and 4 tidal bore. As far as I can tell, you have to hit a mana dork on turn 1 and draw into ascendancy to go off on turn 2, though I'm not sure it's all that likely to happen.

Mystical_Jackass

10-07-2014, 11:46 AM

I'll just throw out some ideas to ponder:

Orcish Lumberjack
Faithless Looting
Manamorphose
Rite of Flame
Past in Flames

rufus

10-07-2014, 01:38 PM

I'll just throw out some ideas to ponder:

Orcish Lumberjack
Faithless Looting
Manamorphose
Rite of Flame
Past in Flames

Manamorphose is in lots of lists already.

Lumberjack is a poor fit since it consumes lands and doesn't produce :u:. Rite of Flame is better, but still doesn't produce :u: and loses cards - if you want Lotus Petal or Tidal Bore 5-8 it might be a card to look at.

People claim that Past in Flames is mostly going to be a lose-more card. If you can bootstrap to 4 mana while going off, you should be winning.

Faithless looting (and Careful Study) are good, but people are wary of negative CA.

apple713

10-07-2014, 01:51 PM

dte

10-07-2014, 01:57 PM

Tidal bore is AT most 2x because it will not always be free. At best you might have 2 islands on t2 .

It does not matter that much that the third you draw is not free: if you're drawing your third one, you should already have ascendancy, so you can discard it.

Admiral_Arzar

10-07-2014, 02:38 PM

Consider Autumn's Veil as a possible protection spell - it's basically a green chant that can also stop some forms of removal on your dorks. It saw some use in fringe storm decks a few years ago.

Quizzlemanizzle

10-07-2014, 02:40 PM

Tidal bore is AT most 2x because it will not always be free. At best you might have 2 islands on t2 .

Summoners pact is terrible because you dont want creatures when you are chaining spells. The fact that the spell is free and replaces itself isnt enough to justify its inclusion.

It is hardly terrible because you could get something like Elvish Spirit Guide which would create 1 green mana and 1 any mana from Hierarch/Birds when you need it to cast something like a Wish into Brain Freeze or Grapeshot or whatever Storm finisher you want.

I'll maintain my position that the Glittering Wish is not good because it reduces the chance of having Ascendancy naturally and every game playing with Wish is just slow and can't be relied on to win in legacy. If you rely on wish your earliest combo kill is turn 3, that is not good and you give your opponent two chances to counter.

If you want to make this deck legacy viable you have to improve the speed at which you can go off, you have to aim for turn 2.

Manamorphose also is a bit problematic I think because if you want to go off turn 2 you basically need 1 free spell to generate the first mana and Manamorphose is not castable until you cast a second free spell of which your list seems to have only Gitaxian Probe.

I really don't see the great value of Xantid Swarm in this deck at all. Belcher plays this card because it does not have access to more than 1 mana. It can just as easily be removed as your dork. The only thing it does is eat 1 removal spell MAYBE. It basically only protects you against counterspells for which you should have Force of Will.
If you want reliable protection against that you could play City of Solitude in the sideboard or Defense Grid.

Otherwise counterspells are pretty bad against you once you go off you can only be stopped by maybe Mindbreak Trap or Flusterstorm.

Valtrix

10-07-2014, 03:22 PM

Okay, here's an analysis of what I consider a core, with comments where it seems appropriate:

Cantrips: 18
1 Treasure Cruise
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Manamorphose

2 tops should be mandatory. Finding a single one almost certainly guarantees that you won't fizzle (the odds of which are already fairly low), but having two in the whole deck gives you the oppotunity to go infinite. This is absolutely necessary because you might need to cast 20 cantrips to get to lethal (well, we have wish + flesh//blood still, but you get the idea), which the deck clearly doesn't have. This is why modern versions run a 1x grapeshot, since getting to 20 on a single creature is actually pretty tough. Top is also great in longer games, but only running 2 should reduce the risk of clunky multiple top hands. I'd be willing to consider more tops, especially for the potential to use dryad arbor as a win-condition.

The cards that generate +1 mana while comboing are necessary to build up for a wish into flesh // blood to win outside of combo step. 4 probe + 3 manamorphose lets you get a potential 7 mana. It's reasonable to assume when you combo off you'll either have some extra mana or be able to cast 4 of these to get your wish off. Probe is obvious because it gives you information which is great for any combo deck. Manamorphose is less of an "auto-include," but it is actively helpful for fixing and you need enough +1 mana cards to ensure you can bootstrap up your mana to be able to wish for something.

I think we should probably be running at least 1 treasure cruise. The only situations where cruise is every bad is if you're trying to go off early, but as a singleton it's unlikely to clog your hands up much (multiples was my issue when I ran a lot). However, the upside of a draw 3 is just great when you need attrition, and it gives you a lot more flexiblity while comboing. We have a huge density of cantrips so it's very reasonable to cast this card reasonably as fast as well. Think of it as pseudo-protection.

Combo Enablers: 7
4 Glittering Wish
3 Jeskai Ascendancy

I think these are self-explanatory. It's been discussed, but wish is the most flexible and powerful combo enabler so I think it's very important to include.

Mana Creatures: 11
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Sylvan Caryatid
2 of Caryatid or GSZ

I'm not sure the optimal number of mana creatures. 11 sounds good, but I feel like I picked that number somewhat arbitraritly. Hierarch and birds are auto-includes, in my opinion. The speed cannot be matched, even if they can die compared to caryatid. The question after that is whether caryatid or GSZ is better. Honestly, I'm not sure. Both are very good against miracles (one dodges balances to find a pridemage postboard, the other ignores their removal to begin with). Regardless, it's a good idea to run at least one caryatid to tutor even if you run GSZ. I'm leaning towards GSZ overall since I think if you really need to you can get a caryatid, but otherwise you have a lot more flexibility.

Lands: 16 (?)
My current, but not necessarily "optimal" manabase:
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga
3 Mana Confluence
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island

Currently I have 16 lands. No idea if this is a good number or not as I just don't know how much a deck like this needs. I don't know if mana confluence is good or not. My inclination is that 2-3 is fine. Multiples seems too harsh, but seeing a singleton will probalby help you out. I actually think land grant looks amazing Land Grant and I think I want to include some number for sure, but I'm not certain on how money. It can't get a tundra or volc, but land grant increases the possibilities of turn 2 kills, gives extra ways to generate +1 mana while comboing, further thins the deck while comboing, and can even be a free loot while comboing. All and all it seems very powerful, especially considering it can get a forest from the SB to play around a blood moon.

An important thing to consider about lands is that we also need to think about how many of them can cast certain things. For example, we must have green, but tundra and volc don't cast this. As such we need to consider not only the number of lands we have, but also the number for each color. This manabase has been pretty good for me in testing so far.

Wishboard: 6
SB: 1 Jeskai Ascendancy
SB: 1 Life // Death
SB: 1 Flesh // Blood
SB: 1 Artifact and/or enchantment hate
SB: 1 Fiery Justice

Life // Death is to use glittering wish to get the creature part of our combo. Could be Kiora's Follower, but I believe life death is better because it can let you combo that turn if you can find a wish and have some spare mana.

Flesh // Blood lets you combo outside of combat, highly important for going off with caryatid or after combat if you run xantid swarm. (Or if people play something silly like ensnaring bridge against you.)

I think having at least one board card against creatures is important, for which fiery justice seems to be just the best since it can kill multiple things. Opponent gaining 5 life is irrelevant.

There are a lot of options for artifact or enchantment hate, so I left it blank for now because I'm not sure what is best.

Okay, let's reference the skeleton:

// Cantrips: 18
1 Treasure Cruise
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Manamorphose

// Combo Enablers: 7
4 Glittering Wish
3 Jeskai Ascendancy

//Mana Creatures: 11
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Sylvan Caryatid
2 GSZ

//Lands: 16
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga
3 Mana Confluence
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island

//Wishboard: 6
SB: 1 Jeskai Ascendancy
SB: 1 Life // Death
SB: 1 Flesh // Blood
SB: 1 Artifact and/or enchantment hate
SB: 1 Fiery Justice

Free Slots: 8
The question is how to spend these 8 remaining slots. I think at least three should be put to protection, and I still think xantid swarm is the best option here, which is what I have included in my original list. However, I think most of us can agree that we want at least this many protection slots.

So, that leaves us 5 slots to work with. I have them filled up with 4 preordain and 1 more GSZ in my current list. I really like this line because it gives you a critical mass of quick cantrips and zenith gives you more outs to a resolved counterbalance.

So, what directions to take?
There's the dryad arbor + 2 more tops package. This gives maximum chance to go infinite with a dryad arbor, two tops, and ascendancy. This line seems best only for attrition matches where you might want to fetch for an arbor or really need long term advantage with top. I think top otherwise is actually a bit awkward since it's just too slow and doesn't actually replace itself pre-combo. Arbor also doesn't pull that much weight by himself, so I'd be leery of adding these cards to the main. I haven't had proper testing to know where this functionality might be most useful. But, I think that this is something we can definitely consider for a sideboard option.

There's the option of trying to jam in more speed into the deck. Namely, lotus petals or a bunch more free spells. On the whole I don't like this that much. I don't really believe it's that important to have blazing speed, as long as you're more stable. Just look at a deck like belcher or oops all spells. They suffer greatly because they don't have resiliency. I don't care for petal, because I don't actually think it will speed you up in most situations and it can really hurt your resiliency. It is used to good effect in SnT and storm combo, but I think there's a few major differences. First is that we generally will probably be spending a lot more mana than either of these decks setting up before we go off between having more cantrips, casting a mana dork, and possibly glittering wish. To do all of these things we need to be stable.

A few more card ideas just to keep in mind.
Believe it or not we can actually use stoneforge mystic to help combo. How? Paradise mantle. Indeed it costs one more mana than a caryatid and mantle is dead without SFM. However, if we ever find we need some alternate win-conditions, SFM with a batterskull as well might not be the worst thing in the world to consider.

Speaking of alternate win-cons, what about Aura mutation for the wishboard? Originally I was looking for ways to handle counterbalance best, and this caught my eye. It costs 2 cmc, but if we're wishing for it then we had to resolve a 2 cmc spell anyway. I like that this helps us handle a balance and then can give us some pressure if we can't quite stick and ascension or mana dork. Additionally, the same type of thing happens against a Sneak Attack; if the player has to go for a sneak attack without another R up we can destroy it and then have a potential clock against them.

Catch // Release looks like a very interesting catch all to me. Compared to abrupt decay it's castable in our colors and can let us do silly things with a huge creature or against planeswalkers. It can also nab a counterbalance at 3 cmc. Likely far too cute, but it's a card I'm happy to consider.

Conjurer's Bauble is another 1-mana cantrip. I don't like it as much as our other options, but it can recycle wish cards or ascendencies.

For now I think I will consider the following list,

/Cantrips: 22
1 Treasure Cruise
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Manamorphose
4 Preordain

//Combo Enablers: 7
4 Glittering Wish
3 Jeskai Ascendancy

//Mana Creatures: 9 (+3 GSZ below)
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Sylvan Caryatid

//Protection and utility: 6
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Green Sun's Zenith

//Lands (for the most part): 16
3 Land Grant
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island

//Sideboard :
SB: 1 Jeskai Ascendancy
SB: 1 Life // Death
SB: 1 Flesh // Blood
SB: 1 Aura Mutation
SB: 1 Fiery Justice
SB: 1 Reborn Hope
SB: 1 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Forest
SB: 1 Bayou
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 free slots

For future: Trying to figure out the matchups. I'd be pretty happy to start testing the above list against a bunch of decks right now.

Quizzlemanizzle

10-07-2014, 03:38 PM

So whats your plan?

Maindecking Xantid Swarm so you hope to cast a Dork on turn 1, Xantid Swarm and Wish on turn 2 and Ascendancy and a Cantrip on turn 3 all while untapping with your dork and Swarm still alive after 3 turns and Ascendancy being stuck in your hand for a turn when your opponent knows it and can make you discard it?

Seems awfully slow and fragile.

If you Maindeck Xantid Swarm at all it would be much better to run just 1 and run 4 GSZ, no idea why would would run less than 4.

Also you have no Force of Will to combat other combo decks that will easily kill you if you give them 3 turns.

I think I am repeating myself but this deck won't be competetive at all unless you make it considerably faster and anything including Glittering Wish is slow. As is hoping to untap multiple turns with a dork.

Why on earth would you not run Dryad Arbor if you run GSZ.

thefreakaccident

10-07-2014, 03:54 PM

Don't listen to all the naysayers Valcrix. Even if the deck isn't optimal yet, the concept is still very cool. I don't think it is a stretch that with mana enablers someone can play a 3cc card FTW, it's just more difficult without 'reliable' protection.

Valtrix

10-07-2014, 03:54 PM

I think you're too worried about speed. While this deck is not, on average, as fast as many other combo decks, I think you'll find that the flexibility and resiliency is actually very high. And the deck is not really that slow. Turn 3 kills while casting protection or glittering wish are not uncommon at all: birds, GSZ for swarm, jeskai, win; or hierarch, glittering wish, jeskai, win; or, ponder, swarm + hierarch, jeskai, kill. I do agree that full GSZ before swarm probably does make a lot of sense though.

Additionally, a large part of the meta are not these blazing fast decks. Sure, you'll run into them sometimes but I would say for most places the majority of the meta is composed of midrange, tempo, and miracles decks, against which a more resilient deck is very powerful. The deck looks very fragile needing a creature and an enchantment, but speaking from watching people play this deck in modern in practice the deck is far more resilient against removal than it seems.

Not to put words into your mouth, but your opinion on this matter seems to indicate you almost even feel that the deck isn't even worth testing based on initial impressions that it's "far too slow". It's also bad practice to dismiss a concept so swiftly like this. Specifically, I'm not sure why you think wish is too slow. For example, burning wish is used in many storm decks, so it's not unreasonable to expect it to be castable here, and hardly that it would just be god-awfuly slow to ever play.

Quizzlemanizzle

10-07-2014, 04:04 PM

Protection should not be your worry this deck could play Force of Will, Flusterstorm and Pact of Negation easily.

It is all about speed, this deck is slow like a snail with Glittering Wish. I would compare it to High Tide in terms of speed except High Tide has much better chances of interacting with the opponent than this list with Glittering Wish.

Being slow in legacy is terrible especially considering that some of these deck lists don't interact with your opponent at all. If you give any t1 deck in legacy 3 turns to setup they will either kill you or sculpt a hand to stop you by turn 3. I can't see this deck winning games against established legacy decks unless the opponent stumbles.

DNT-> Thalia, Swords to Plowshares among other things
Delver -> Counterspells
BGx -> Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize, Hymn
Miracles -> Counterbalance/Top etc

I would compare the 4 Glittering Wish and 3 Ascendancy to this: Imagine Show and Tell playing 4 Burning Wish and 3 Show and Tell. Yeah you increase the chance that you will get a Show and Tell by turn 3 but you decrease your chance of casting Show and Tell on turn 2.
The same thing with Glittering Wish. You decrease your chances of going off in turn 2. You also open yourself up to discard when you Wish for it and telegraph your next turn.

This makes the deck better in modern because modern cantrips are crappy but in legacy you have 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Preordain and SDT to find that Ascendancy if you did not draw 1 of 4 naturally.

[SLAYER]chaos

10-07-2014, 04:17 PM

From pure theory it seems lotus petal should be an auto 4-of in this deck. It smoothes the color requirements, it's very good pre and post ascendancy hitting the table, and it helps fight through soft counters. I would also be on the enlightened tutor team instead of glittering wish as well. Tutor not only costs one less but helps protect through discard. It can also grab SDT mid combo to go infinite much easier.

Quizzlemanizzle

10-07-2014, 04:22 PM

apple713

10-07-2014, 06:04 PM

I would compare the 4 Glittering Wish and 3 Ascendancy to this: Imagine Show and Tell playing 4 Burning Wish and 3 Show and Tell. Yeah you increase the chance that you will get a Show and Tell by turn 3 but you decrease your chance of casting Show and Tell on turn 2.
The same thing with Glittering Wish. You decrease your chances of going off in turn 2. You also open yourself up to discard when you Wish for it and telegraph your next turn.

This makes the deck better in modern because modern cantrips are crappy but in legacy you have 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Preordain and SDT to find that Ascendancy if you did not draw 1 of 4 naturally.

unfortunately there are no other cards that do what jeskai does so u can't play it like 4 sneak and 4 s&t. the best you can do is enlightened tutor.

chaos;838400']From pure theory it seems lotus petal should be an auto 4-of in this deck. It smoothes the color requirements, it's very good pre and post ascendancy hitting the table, and it helps fight through soft counters. I would also be on the enlightened tutor team instead of glittering wish as well. Tutor not only costs one less but helps protect through discard. It can also grab SDT mid combo to go infinite much easier.

These are all probably true. if you really need to increase speed, lotus petal would do it, but casting jeskai isn't the end of it you still need to chain on that first turn. This would involve including free spells. more cards like gitaxian probe, land grant, so on...

imho

The problem with these attempts to port the deck from modern to legacy is that in a nutshell you are only replacing Cantrips with better Cantrips but the way you contruct these decks you don't take advantage of the better cantrips at all. The deck gains nothing with these cantrips since even the lesser cantrips are very reliable to keep the chain going in modern.
Having Preordain instead of Serum Visions or sth does not make the deck stronger if all you do is cantrip into cantrip into win.

If you want to make it a legit legacy deck you have to make it more powerful than the modern deck and that is done by speeding up the deck. The problem is that no matter what you need 4 different mana GUWR to do it and even legacy's card pool does not offer much to make this happen on turn 1.
You would have to run Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal or find a way to give your dork haste so you can go off immediately. Make this deck consistently win on turn 2 and it has a chance to be legit.

to accomplish this you HAVE to run enlightened tutor, and for protection i would recommend pact of negation / spell pierce / daze. daze might be ok if you are really pushing t2 combo. let me try and draft a fast list

the list i drafted seems to run into the following issues which i would imagine are consistent among any list modified for speed.

The deck either doesn't generate enough card advantage or its not consistently getting creatures into play on t1 to be abused by jeskai on 2. Dryad arbor is less than stellar because he produces green and adding green mana to the pool is actually never preferable in this deck.

it is more reasonable to expect a turn 3 win on a consistent basis and i think that it can be protected if you extend the turn to 3

MaximumC

10-07-2014, 06:16 PM

imho

The problem with these attempts to port the deck from modern to legacy is that in a nutshell you are only replacing Cantrips with better Cantrips but the way you contruct these decks you don't take advantage of the better cantrips at all. The deck gains nothing with these cantrips since even the lesser cantrips are very reliable to keep the chain going in modern.
Having Preordain instead of Serum Visions or sth does not make the deck stronger if all you do is cantrip into cantrip into win.

If you want to make it a legit legacy deck you have to make it more powerful than the modern deck and that is done by speeding up the deck. The problem is that no matter what you need 4 different mana GUWR to do it and even legacy's card pool does not offer much to make this happen on turn 1.
You would have to run Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal or find a way to give your dork haste so you can go off immediately. Make this deck consistently win on turn 2 and it has a chance to be legit.

In concur. I have been messing around with a Vintage brew, and while we admittedly get better mana rocks to help smooth out the combo, one of the first things I cut were cantrips that didn't "do" anything on their own. In Legacy, if you start with:

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Treasure Cruise

And some number of Preordain, I really do not think you need anything else. Why would you bother to clutter your deck with terrible cards? Here's what I'd test in your format:

Combo (13)
----------
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Birds of Paradise
1x Past in Flames // 1 Sylvan Caryatid in board
4x Jeskai Ascendency
1x Grapeshot // 1 Artful Dodge // 1 Devil's Play

Dig (13)
----------
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
2x Treasure Cruise
1x Ponder
1x Enlightened Tutor
2x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Eternal Witness

Protection (9)
------------
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
3 Flusterstorm // 3 Divert in board

Mana (24)
------------
4 Mox Diamond
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Mana Confluence
2 City of Brass

It's simple, direct, and to the point. You resolve a mana dork, you resolve Ascendncy, and you go. Early game countermagic keeps your dorks on the table. Misdirection and Divert help against Abrupt Decay. Daze seems questionable in a deck that needs to hit 3 colored mana quickly to do anything. The cantrips are all good pre- and post-combo.

For win conditions, I also like cards that are simple and useful. Depending on how much storm you've generated, Grapeshot or Artful Dodge on your beefed up mana dork, or both, should be able to seal the deal. As a bonus, both of these cards can be used early in the combo to help dig. Same with Devil's Play, although the need for tons of mana after you're done combing makes me less interested in that.

[SLAYER]chaos

10-07-2014, 06:23 PM

This is what I drew up after thinking about it for a little bit.

Creatures: 9
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Sylvan Caryatid

Spells: 25
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxion Probe
4 Treasure Cruise
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Burning Wish
2 Manamorphose

Enchantments: 5
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
1 Concordant Crossroads

Artifacts: 6
4 Lotus Petal
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands: 15
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard: 15
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Pyroblast
2 Misdirection
2 Divert
1 Hydroblast
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Grapeshot
1 Void Snare

thefreakaccident

10-07-2014, 06:42 PM

My comment is neither here nor there, but my buddy had great success with glittering wish boards in a very slow rock variant back in the day. I think it is just as good as burning wish at the very least, although a little bit more difficult to cast, but between birds/heirarch/possibly petal and a solid manabase, I don't see any issues with it. I do have reservations about 4x treasure cruise though.

Aggro_zombies

10-07-2014, 07:28 PM

Eh, I think the exact configuration of cantrips is less relevant than the need to race disruption. IMO Quizzle hit the nail on the head as far as what this deck's problem is and what it has to do to fix it.

I'm also not sold on Glittering Wish. On the one hand, you go up to an effective seven copies of Ascendancy, so you can more reliably find it early...on the other hand, Wishing for Ascendancy represents an extra step which pushes back your combo by half a turn at least, which makes you even softer to Force/Thoughtseize/Decay/Blasts.

apple713

10-07-2014, 08:15 PM

ApolloGod

10-07-2014, 09:20 PM

after a lot of consideration, this deck has no real advantages over other combo decks in the format (legacy). it can be faster but at the cost of consistency and protection. the goal is balancing that out. The combo is incredibly weak. The more you strengthen it, the slower it becomes, i think once the deck is optimized it settles at t3 and has maybe 8 protection spells, 4 of which are pacts.

you are having to fight ALL removal not only can they kill jeskai, but they can kill your creature. So many points of weakness at least for legacy. even if you do manage to start chaining there is a chance you fizzle.

it might just fit in some sort of awkward RWBG aggro shell since mana dorks and brainstorm / ponder are staples in those decks.

I am very excited by the prospect of this deck in Legacy and I think part of that excitement stems from brewing, changing, and perfecting the various deck lists. I've built the deck on MODO and I am thoroughly enjoying it so far.

To keep my post on topic: I'm sure some number of Treasure Cruise is correct, but I don't know the exact number. I run 2 now, but 3 might feel better when the combo gets rolling.

Edit: I'm also running 3x Burning Wish instead of Glittering Wish. It has more relaxed color requirements (which helps while in mid-combo) and gets me what I want (flesh//blood, Tendrils, Grapeshot, Void Snare, Empty the Warrens)

[SLAYER]chaos

10-07-2014, 10:36 PM

^Could you post your list for reference? I'm interested to see how other people are running this. I might try to build this on modo, if not the earliest I'm going to be able to get testing in for it is Saturday.

ApolloGod

10-07-2014, 10:50 PM

chaos;838453']^Could you post your list for reference? I'm interested to see how other people are running this. I might try to build this on modo, if not the earliest I'm going to be able to get testing in for it is Saturday.

Combo
4 Jeskai Ascendancy

Lands/Acceleration
3 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Stomping Ground
2 City of Brass
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Lotus Petal

Draw/Filter/Cantrip/Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose
3 Burning Wish
2 Treasure Cruise
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Index (it might seem odd, but this card is one of my favorite. I use it when I can.)
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Creature Package
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Noble Hierarch

Sideboard
1 Flesh/Blood
2 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Void Snare
1 Scarscale Ritual
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Abrupt Decay

As you can see, I run no protection. I probably should, but I'm a huge fan of full-throttle combo. I'll consider some counters after more testing.

Edit: I'm not looking to win any major tournaments, so I like testing out cards that seem fun or interesting. The new Rattleclaw Mystic seems spicy. I might toss it in to see how I like it.

Edit Edit: After further testing, I'm almost certain I want a third Treasure Cruise. It's too good.

alderon666

10-07-2014, 11:20 PM

Why should I play this instead of Elves? I see the same vulnerabilities and no clear advantages.

ApolloGod

10-07-2014, 11:24 PM

Why should I play this instead of Elves? I see the same vulnerabilities and no clear advantages.

It depends on what your goals are. Elves is entirely boring. If you want to have fun, I definitely suggest you play Jeskai Combo. Burning Wish gives you access to several win conditions, and there are several lines of play each turn.

Mr. Froggy

10-07-2014, 11:32 PM

It depends on what your goals are. Elves is entirely boring. If you want to have fun, I definitely suggest you play Jeskai Combo. Burning Wish gives you access to several win conditions, and there are several lines of play each turn.

I wouldn't say Elves is entirely boring becaude it depends on the person playing the deck.

I mean I fins Miracles a horrendously boring deck, but maybe not the guy next to piloting it.

Daize

10-07-2014, 11:50 PM

I wonder though, say you're getting your mana creatures out, and.... Ascendency gets countered. Meanwhile, you dig on. What keeps the other player from continuing their way and keeping another counter at hand? At least with e.g. elves, or Big Red, there is a clock, or other threats that _need_ to be countered.

apple713

10-08-2014, 12:21 AM

so far i've found this to be very consistent. treasure cruise is great as a 2 of because you'll almost never get the rare instance of 2 in your hand when u can't cast either. I'd maybe try 3.

So far I'm noticing the deck fizzles sometimes (1/10 maybe) when digging. Pact can stay for protection or go for consistency. Statistically this is very close to the proportions you want because the deck practically requires a T1 mana dork. Probably needs something more solid to finish the game then trying to swing with the buffed creature.

Edited list*

Dig 18
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Sensei's Divining Top <----really just an infinite enabler. allows you to mill your deck or buff without milling, and can be searched with extra enlightened tutors.
2 Treasure Cruise <---- maybe +1

Combo 8
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Enlightened Tutor

Misc 2
2 Postmortem Lunge

mana 14
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Arbor Elf
2 Fatestitcher
4 Lotus Petal <--- helps so much in T2 victories
3 Land Grant <--- helps so much in T2 victories

Lands 13
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Savannah

rufus

10-08-2014, 01:37 AM

..
So far I'm noticing the deck fizzles sometimes (1/10 maybe) when digging. Pact can stay for protection or go for consistency. Statistically this is very close to the proportions you want because the deck practically requires a T1 mana dork. Probably needs something more solid to finish the game then trying to swing with the buffed creature.

Running some number of Elvish Spirit Guide means you're more likely to be able to T1 Ponder/Brainstorm into a mana dude. It could also help with potential Land Grant/Arbor Elf compatability issues. It seems like a tricky balancing act.

Is your win condition swinging with a single creature?

apple713

10-08-2014, 01:46 AM

Running some number of Elvish Spirit Guide means you're more likely to be able to T1 Ponder/Brainstorm into a mana dude. It could also help with potential Land Grant/Arbor Elf compatability issues. It seems like a tricky balancing act.

Is your win condition swinging with a single creature?

in that version yes.

Since i posted I edited my list
-4 pact of negation
+2 postmortem lunges
+2 fate stitcher
-3 fetchlands
+3 land grants

mortem helps if a creature gets killed and ups mana if needed. Fatestitcher will tap all their creatures down so swinging is 100% ok. also between the 2 mortems and 2 fate stitchers you can have 5 creatures in play if you only started with 1

land grant is amazing because it enables more t2 victories.
T1 land bop
T2 land or lotus petal -> jeskai. Since you are all tapped out Gitaxian probe, land-grant, and lotus petal can all untap your creature to start chaining.

Lemnear

10-08-2014, 02:33 AM

Land Grant is just brillant. Less bricking during combo by drawing lands and free untap effect. Props to whoever came up with that. :)

rufus

10-08-2014, 08:31 AM

Valtrix

10-08-2014, 12:06 PM

I would compare the 4 Glittering Wish and 3 Ascendancy to this: Imagine Show and Tell playing 4 Burning Wish and 3 Show and Tell. Yeah you increase the chance that you will get a Show and Tell by turn 3 but you decrease your chance of casting Show and Tell on turn 2.

This seems like a poor comparison because show and tell decks don't just run 4-of their key card to win the game. Sneak and show runs 4 Show and Tell + 4 Sneak Attack and Omnitell runs 4 Show and Tell and 2-3 Dream Halls. If anything, this should be an indication that combo decks need a lot of copies of a card to go off and that running just 4 is not enough. Therefore, if you want a faster way to find your combo the only thing you can really do is run enlightened tutor, but the card disadantage will crush you and it's not any faster than wish.

The same thing with Glittering Wish. You decrease your chances of going off in turn 2. You also open yourself up to discard when you Wish for it and telegraph your next turn.

I truly don't believe you need to go off turn 2 to be competitive. Let's take a perverse example: say you could play a deck which wins 100% of the time on turn 4, regardless of what your opponnet does. If they actually kill you before that turn, well then you lose, but otherwise you always win. Would this deck be playable in legacy? My answer is yes. Granted, there is no deck in the format like this, but it just serves to point out turn 2 kills are not everything.

I would say the best example is a deck like burn, because often it practice it ends up feeling more like a combo deck where every card does the same thing. It has some very rare turn 3 kills, but is most of the time a turn 4 deck assuming no enemy disruption. All burn can do is interact with some small creatures, yet doing so delays your "combo". Burning little guys certainly isn't helping burn not lose to the "apparently" high number of decks that are just killing it on turn 3. Yet, it has shown itself to be a very playable, and in fact competitive, deck even with this low amount of interaction. You do not need to win on turn 2 to have a competitive low-interactive deck in this format.

Also, land grant has been awesome. I highly recommend to anybody playing this deck to play 4 and cut the rainbow lands. It's great while comboing for +1 mana and a free draw/discard. Additionally it helps you go off with Jeskai when you have to tap out for it. Plus if blood moon is an issue for you you can run a forest in your SB and still grant for it under a moon :D

In terms of fizzing, the only ways you fizzle are from having a sequence where you can't chain two cantrips together. This can sometimes happen because you often only have 2-3 cards in hand when comboing, so you don't always have the most flexibility. Treasure cruise and top really help you out during the combo turn, and you should always be able to find at least one of them. Mana is never an issue since everything replaces itself or generates +1 mana until you need to wish for something. I find fizzling to be extremely rare though.

Darkenslight

10-08-2014, 12:07 PM

It seems like the go off frequency is at least as important as the fizzle frequency.

When you do fizzle, do you run out of mana, end up with a bunch of dead cards in hand, or an empty hand?

My suspicion (although i haven't tested this in Legacy) is that the times you fizzle are because you run out of mana. With Life or another animation effect, you can get to untap lands with the Jeskai trigger. I would be surprised if you managed to get all of the lands and fizzled that way. Playing the Standard build, You can use a card like Refraction Helix and a 0-cost or 1-cost permanent to go 'infinite'. The Helix is a useful card as it reads, 'until end of turn'. It's an interesting thing,t hat's for sure.

Daize

10-08-2014, 12:28 PM

In terms of going infinite, I advise highly against putting in cards that will only help you with Jeskai out. I was thinking myself along the lines of rather using Past in Flames with Burning Wish, if you're going the Enlightened Tutor route.

Also, Arbor Elf is way too vulnerable. There should be an alternative.

apple713

10-08-2014, 12:38 PM

It seems like the go off frequency is at least as important as the fizzle frequency.

When you do fizzle, do you run out of mana, end up with a bunch of dead cards in hand, or an empty hand?

In my version you never run out of mana because everything cost 1 mana, the issue is ending up with an empty hand because spells do not replace themselves. There are not many spells that don't replace themselves so it doesn't happen often. I haven't tested other versions but chaining in my version is very easy because once you hit 1 SDT extra mana turns all your spells into efficient diggers because you can foresee what cards you want to mill, draw, and the sequence of spells to play. Also, once you have 1 SDT all you need to do is find 1 Enlightened tutor or another SDT and you effectively "win" because it allows you to chain your whole deck.

This seems like a poor comparison because show and tell decks don't just run 4-of their key card to win the game. Sneak and show runs 4 Show and Tell + 4 Sneak Attack and Omnitell runs 4 Show and Tell and 2-3 Dream Halls. If anything, this should be an indication that combo decks need a lot of copies of a card to go off and that running just 4 is not enough. Therefore, if you want a faster way to find your combo the only thing you can really do is run enlightened tutor, but the card disadantage will crush you and it's not any faster than wish.

I truly don't believe you need to go off turn 2 to be competitive. Let's take a perverse example: say you could play a deck which wins 100% of the time on turn 4, regardless of what your opponnet does. If they actually kill you before that turn, well then you lose, but otherwise you always win. Would this deck be playable in legacy? My answer is yes. Granted, there is no deck in the format like this, but it just serves to point out turn 2 kills are not everything.

I would say the best example is a deck like burn, because often it practice it ends up feeling more like a combo deck where every card does the same thing. It has some very rare turn 3 kills, but is most of the time a turn 4 deck assuming no enemy disruption. All burn can do is interact with some small creatures, yet doing so delays your "combo". Burning little guys certainly isn't helping burn not lose to the "apparently" high number of decks that are just killing it on turn 3. Yet, it has shown itself to be a very playable, and in fact competitive, deck even with this low amount of interaction. You do not need to win on turn 2 to have a competitive low-interactive deck in this format.

Also, land grant has been awesome. I highly recommend to anybody playing this deck to play 4 and cut the rainbow lands. It's great while comboing for +1 mana and a free draw/discard. Additionally it helps you go off with Jeskai when you have to tap out for it. Plus if blood moon is an issue for you you can run a forest in your SB and still grant for it under a moon :D

In terms of fizzing, the only ways you fizzle are from having a sequence where you can't chain two cantrips together. This can sometimes happen because you often only have 2-3 cards in hand when comboing, so you don't always have the most flexibility. Treasure cruise and top really help you out during the combo turn, and you should always be able to find at least one of them. Mana is never an issue since everything replaces itself or generates +1 mana until you need to wish for something. I find fizzling to be extremely rare though.

Enlightened tutor is probably better in this deck to keep mana costs down, and it serves as a tutor for second SDT which in my version is critical. Enlightened tutor also allows you to fill the 4x show and tell(jeskai) and 4x sneak attack (enlightened tutor) mold better.

I actually started my deck with the sneak and show template because I really like the decks consistency and balance.

Since this deck is so easily disrupt able.... any kind of removal, you will not be able to efficiently protect against it all, so the deck must rely on speed in these circumstances. Every turn that goes by opens the deck to more removal. How do you plan against this huge list

lightning bolt
swords to plowshares
phyrexian revoker
jitte
abrupt decay
smallpox
dark blast
maelstrom pulse
vindicate
krosan grip
blood moon
wasteland <---- wrecks

And so much more... so effectively if you win before these are drawn or able to be casted you circumvent their relevance.

I opted out of 4x land grant just because I only have 4 searchable lands in the deck, so having 4 land grants seemed excessive. Maybe i'll bump it to 4 and see if it presents a problem but right now it seems fine. the easy swap is 9th fetch for 4th land grant.

rufus

10-08-2014, 01:20 PM

My suspicion (although i haven't tested this in Legacy) is that the times you fizzle are because you run out of mana. ...

It seems unlikely to me - In apple's list the only thing that should cost more than 1 mana while going off is ascendancy proper, and Gitaxian Probe,Postmortem Lunge,Land Grant and Lotus Petal (if you include Fatestitcher a quarter of the deck!) should be net mana producers.

It occurs to me that Fatestitcher + Sensei's Divining Top is almost better than two tops in play while going off. That card is just a utility monster.

apple713

10-08-2014, 03:36 PM

It seems unlikely to me - In apple's list the only thing that should cost more than 1 mana while going off is ascendancy proper, and Gitaxian Probe,Postmortem Lunge,Land Grant and Lotus Petal (if you include Fatestitcher a quarter of the deck!) should be net mana producers.

It occurs to me that Fatestitcher + Sensei's Divining Top is almost better than two tops in play while going off. That card is just a utility monster.

great observation, one that had not occurred to me yet and may actually warrant another more spots for fate stitcher. i guess the effects could stack like

start with 0 cards in hand

1)tap top; draw on stack
2)fatesitcher to untap top
3)tap top; draw on stack

3) resolves; draw random card, put top on top of library
1) resolves; draw top, nothing to put back

Net effect 1 cards in hand 1 top in play, infinite cycling

had i have realized this the deck might not have fizzled the few times i ran into the issue. I would now argue that fate stitcher is probably favored over treasure cruise. Both are used to generate card advantage, but fate stitcher has alternative applications. Both are conditional however. Testing will prove the better choice. I think i like fate might have the upper hand because it serves as your mana creature in time of need. I might actually -2 treasure cruise, +1 fate stitcher +1 postmortem for more resiliency against removal.

major problem cards include, pithing needle, and chalice at 1

Darkenslight

10-08-2014, 03:59 PM

great observation, one that had not occurred to me yet and may actually warrant another more spots for fate stitcher. i guess the effects could stack like

start with 0 cards in hand

1)tap top; draw on stack
2)fatesitcher to untap top
3)tap top; draw on stack

3) resolves; draw random card, put top on top of library
1) resolves; draw top, nothing to put back

Net effect 1 cards in hand 1 top in play, infinite cycling

had i have realized this the deck might not have fizzled the few times i ran into the issue. I would now argue that fate stitcher is probably favored over treasure cruise. Both are used to generate card advantage, but fate stitcher has alternative applications. Both are conditional however. Testing will prove the better choice. I think i like fate might have the upper hand because it serves as your mana creature in time of need. I might actually -2 treasure cruise, +1 fate stitcher +1 postmortem for more resiliency against removal.

major problem cards include, pithing needle, and chalice at 1

Chalice does some work, as the Jeskai still triggers.

rufus

10-08-2014, 04:46 PM

...

major problem cards include, pithing needle, and chalice at 1

Treasure Cruise is a house and you want the cards. I guess "I want lots of everything" is a typical deck construction problem.

Pithing Needle on what? You should be able to play around needle on SDT or on Fatestitcher individually.

Chalice @ 1 is harsh. I guess you could sideboard in Shattering Spree and Engineered Explosives or something similar.

Playing a basic forest in addition to the mana dorks should give a decent chance to play around blood moon.

I think the answer to a lot of things is just 'dig more'.

apple713

10-08-2014, 04:57 PM

Treasure Cruise is a house and you want the cards. I guess "I want lots of everything" is a typical deck construction problem.

Pithing Needle on what? You should be able to play around needle on SDT or on Fatestitcher individually.

Chalice @ 1 is harsh. I guess you could sideboard in Shattering Spree and Engineered Explosives or something similar.

Playing a basic forest in addition to the mana dorks should give a decent chance to play around blood moon.

I think the answer to a lot of things is just 'dig more'.

chalice is defiantly a problem for my version just cause i've cut out everything that doesn't cost 1. Just something to consider when building sideboard. not really too sure what else i'll need yet.

Pithing needle can be worked around but may present problems more in my version than others

Liliana presents a problem if she makes it into play just because she can make you sac your creature and then make it very difficult to maintain a hand for chaining while trying to find another creature. Liliana is a T2 drop, and that means on the draw its only been 1 turn for you. This is a situation where postmortem lunge shines.

rufus

10-09-2014, 07:19 PM

I find myself thinking that Arbor Elf is problematic since you've got to commit to Tropical Island+Plateau/Rainbow to make it a plausible engine. In addition, it would be helpful to have a 'lumpier' mana cost structure when dealing with chalice.

Maybe something more like:

Fast Mana (10)

4 Lotus Petal
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Tidal Bore

Mana Dorks (10)

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierach
2 Sylvan Caryatid

Combo Engine (8)

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Jeskai Ascendancy

Utility/Finishers (6)

3 Fatestitcher
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Cunning Wish

Card Advantage / Card Quality (13)

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Ideas Unbound
2 Treasure Cruise
1 Gitaxian Probe

"Lands" (13)

3 Land Grant
1 Forest
1 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Savanah
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:

1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Pact of Negation
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Banishing Knack
1 Force of Will
1 Boomerang

apple713

10-10-2014, 08:14 AM

elvish spirit guide is going to cause problems because its not a non creature spell and when you need it to be it will cause fizzle out .

not sure what good purpose cunning wish serves either?

Quizzlemanizzle

10-10-2014, 09:38 AM

elvish spirit guide is going to cause problems because its not a non creature spell and when you need it to be it will cause fizzle out .

not sure what good purpose cunning wish serves either?

I would run more summoners pact and less elvish spirit guides probably..

I also think the simplest and most effective non-combat win condition is simply Brain Freeze and/or Grape Shot in the main and digging them up or using Merchant Scroll.

Running less than 4 Gitaxian Probe is just stupid though.

rufus

10-10-2014, 09:43 AM

elvish spirit guide is going to cause problems because its not a non creature spell and when you need it to be it will cause fizzle out.

I think the deck wants more fast mana so that T1 - Brainstorm/Ponder -> Mana Dork and T1 Caryatid is more possible.

not sure what good purpose cunning wish serves either?

The thought was that running a wishboard can give flexibility without cluttering up the deck too much. Maybe not.

TsumiBand

10-10-2014, 12:42 PM

apple713

10-10-2014, 01:04 PM

I feel like there should be at least one Storm-based way to win, right? Wishing for Flesh // Blood feels a bit shaky.

Also, this is probably totally left-field garbage, but wouldn't Zhur-Taa Druid let you win just by playing the deck? I realize it only taps for :g: but that hardly seems like a problem for this deck to efficiently deal with; you can GSZ for that guy and just cast spells FTW. Could even be Living Wish tech, and you could be one of those crazy fuckers with land in your sideboard.

probably unnecessary to ADD a storm combo. The chain rarely gets broken and if you are chaining 10-20 times anyways attacking will accomplish the same thing. With the inclusion of fate stitcher you just tap opponents blockers / lands.

adding Zhur-Taa Druid might be ok but how many do you add? its inefficient so its really only a win con. at what point do you need an additional win con when your current strategy works just fine? Sure its not a sexy way to win but winning is winning.

the inclusions of fate stitcher make it so that whenever you hit them you increase total production of mana for each spell by 1 and fate stitcher is free to cast because it replaces its mana use immediately. theoretically in my version, chaining your entire deck will net you 3 fate stitchers, 3 mana dorks from postmortem lunge, and your 1 original creature that started it all. They attack for 100 million or whatever arbitrary number you choose.

Glacial chasm sucks but really thats a corner case that is something for sideboard to deal with.

rufus

10-10-2014, 01:52 PM

...Glacial chasm sucks but really thats a corner case that is something for sideboard to deal with.

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I like Cunning Wish.

I expect one of the best way to play lands in the sideboard is Darkest Depths/Thespian's Stage combo.

TsumiBand

10-10-2014, 02:06 PM

probably unnecessary to ADD a storm combo. The chain rarely gets broken and if you are chaining 10-20 times anyways attacking will accomplish the same thing. With the inclusion of fate stitcher you just tap opponents blockers / lands.

adding Zhur-Taa Druid might be ok but how many do you add? its inefficient so its really only a win con. at what point do you need an additional win con when your current strategy works just fine? Sure its not a sexy way to win but winning is winning.

the inclusions of fate stitcher make it so that whenever you hit them you increase total production of mana for each spell by 1 and fate stitcher is free to cast because it replaces its mana use immediately. theoretically in my version, chaining your entire deck will net you 3 fate stitchers, 3 mana dorks from postmortem lunge, and your 1 original creature that started it all. They attack for 100 million or whatever arbitrary number you choose.

Glacial chasm sucks but really thats a corner case that is something for sideboard to deal with.

I guess I'm just curious why so attached to the attack phase when it could be skirted altogether. It doesn't have to be Grapeshot, but I mean you're not really *adding* a combo to the deck, you're just capitalizing on the huge Storm count you're bound to have anyway. You add one card somewhere in the 75, and it's an alt-wincon when attacking won't work.

Also, and maybe this is a reading comprehension fail on my part, but I don't understand how all these creatures a player is topdecking on turn 2 are gaining the haste they need to tap for mana as well. Or have I just horribly misunderstood the combo? Does one really recur enough Fatestitchers and/or cast Postmortem Lunge enough times that the haste takes care of itself?

It just seems like there's a less breaky path to victory that can exist as a one-of that just takes what the deck does - durdles - and turns it into an attack that doesn't rely on dealing combat damage. Hell even a single copy of Flame Fusillade would let you win by tapping your permanents in response to the Jeskai Ascendancy trigger. I'm not saying the deck sucks, I'm just genuinely curious why attacking is good enough. Like God forbid a shitty Holy Day shows up and you exile your Fatestitchers and reanimated guys. I dunno.

Valtrix

10-10-2014, 02:41 PM

You realize Glittering Wish for Flesh // Blood is the way to avoid the combat step, right? You can use gitaxian probes, manamorphose, and land grant to bootstrap yourself up to the 4 mana necessary to do this. Generally when you go off you very, very rarely fizzle. Additionally, say you might not have a ton of cards left in your library. You can just "go infinite" with the (at least) 2 sensei's divining tops which are in the list. It sounds like this takes a lot of effort, but in reality it's not so hard to do. If you need an all-purpose answer, multi-colored can get you anything you need.

I'm not sure about any lists optimized for speed. I really don't think that's the way to go. Stable mana sources (i.e. lands over lotus, just creatures) help you be very resilient to disruption. I really don't think you can do enough to "ignore" disruption. The more you try to circumvent disruption the more a single piece of disruption actually hurts your gameplan, and you just can't hope to avoid all disruption. Fate stitcher is cute but costs way too much for my tastes. Yeah sure you can go Jeskai -> Cantrip to discard fater stitcher -> return stitcher but that requires 5 mana on your combo turn and the stitcher isn't even helping you cast the original jeskai + cantrip to start with. I'd rather just play an actual mana creature or a GSZ for one.

rufus

10-10-2014, 03:10 PM

...
Also, and maybe this is a reading comprehension fail on my part, but I don't understand how all these creatures a player is topdecking on turn 2 are gaining the haste they need to tap for mana as well. Or have I just horribly misunderstood the combo? Does one really recur enough Fatestitchers and/or cast Postmortem Lunge enough times that the haste takes care of itself?...

Jeskai Ascendancy gives +1/+1 per spell. So by the time that they're swinging, the critters are all X/X creatures, and Fatestitcher can tap down most chump blockers.

It just seems like there's a less breaky path to victory that can exist as a one-of that just takes what the deck does - durdles - and turns it into an attack that doesn't rely on dealing combat damage....

The different posters have different ideas about how the deck could work. IMO something like Blue Sun's Zenith would be a better alternative win con than fusilade or the Druid.

TsumiBand

10-10-2014, 03:21 PM

You realize Glittering Wish for Flesh // Blood is the way to avoid the combat step, right?

O_______o

LOL this is where I started my asking -- I'm wondering why a deck that can clearly cast enough spells to turn a 0/1 BoP into lethal damage via Flesh // Blood would rather do that, as opposed to just casting like a Grapeshot or whatever. I get that it works with Glittering Wish, I'm not not getting it, just, comparatively speaking that seems like a bottleneck that the deck doesn't have to have. Instead of counting on one spell to resolve you can Storm for just as much damage. Does Fatestitcher seriously do that much work, that you still don't have to worry about countermagic?

I could totally be speaking prematurely, I have not fished this at all. I tend to naturally balk a little when people go "oh trust me, it's THAT consistent" though, and this particular deck is really making my inner greybeard shake his walking stick. A 4-color combo deck in a format with Wastes and Ports and shit, that relies on card draw by looting, that would rather resolve a single big spell instead of 20+ little ones to win, that has to stick at least one dude one 3cmc enchantment and probably two SDT to get there... and everyone's just sort of okay with that? What a country! In Soviet Jeskai, combo find YOU!

Daize

10-10-2014, 03:35 PM

Haha, that was just wonderful. And exactly why I stopped trying this deck out in Legacy :S.

Valtrix

10-10-2014, 03:44 PM

apple713

10-10-2014, 03:59 PM

if someone plays holy day against you, i'll give them that game cause really ... wtf do they have holy day in their deck for. but yeah you could add something to the main deck instead of 1 fate stitcher / 1 post mortem, that you could wish for, and it doesn't really matter what that is as long as its consistent. I would prefer that it doesn't target is all.

so basically the goal is, 1 mana producer, 1 jeskai, and chaining spells together which is the nature of most combo decks because they want to find their combo pieces.

These requirements shouldn't be that hard....were being disrupted by the same stuff that painter stone is being disrupted by, creature removal and enchant/artifact removal.

i prefer to use 2x sdt or 1x sdt and 1x fate stitcher to go infinite, from there you can either attack with the cards already in your deck, or you can incorporate something that goes above and beyond that, like wishing for a spell. Those specifics rant too important if you can't get the deck to a point where its consistent enough or powerful enough to continue working on it.

we are in the stage of deciding if its consistent / powerful enough for legacy. and maybe deciding if there is too much disruption that the deck just falls apart.

also, if the deck does not prove its worth as an all in devoted combo, the other thing to consider is, what deck do you add 4x jeskai to to just outright win... you can add it to any deck with mana creatures and SDT... are there any decks in the format that currently run both of those?

rufus

10-10-2014, 06:37 PM

...
also, if the deck does not prove its worth as an all in devoted combo, the other thing to consider is, what deck do you add 4x jeskai to to just outright win... you can add it to any deck with mana creatures and SDT... are there any decks in the format that currently run both of those?

Yeah, all those decks that feature :u::w::r:, rainbow mana creatures, SDT and a large pile of cantrips.

apple713

10-10-2014, 08:31 PM

Yeah, all those decks that feature :u::w::r:, rainbow mana creatures, SDT and a large pile of cantrips.

idk , something like bant comes to mind. they naturally run noble and other creatures and maybe 2 SDT, so incorporating jeskai isn't that big a deal. I didn't know if there was another deck that was better.

apple713

10-11-2014, 01:42 AM

I am abandoning this deck. Even when the deck goldfishes t2-t3 EVERYTHING interacts with it and it just sucks. unless my set of testing is just bad match ups it just doesn't get there....

it gets hurt by, discard, removal, wasteland, phyrexian revoker, jitte, liliana, other combos, back to basics, counter spells, just about everything in any deck...

The deck will peak in modern, and get banned, and never show up in legacy.

Barook

10-11-2014, 05:13 AM

The deck will peak in modern, and get banned, and never show up in legacy.
They actually made a working variant for Standard which is played at the Pro Tour.

Darkenslight

10-11-2014, 04:02 PM

They actually made a working variant for Standard which is played at the Pro Tour.

And even the mediocre Modern deck is obscene. The Base of the Standard/Modern decks is UG, and they typically play both DTT and TC, to reduce the chance of fizzling. The standard version uses a 0-cost artifact (Astral Cornucopia) and Retraction Helix to 'go infinite'. Its wincon is an Altar of the Brood main, and it was one of the decks to go 4-0-1 on Day 1 of the PT.

rufus

10-13-2014, 01:32 AM

Crazy

10-13-2014, 06:41 AM

I do not think Jeskai Ascendancy is that great of a card for legacy. It does fit great into a U/W/R delver/pyromancer shell but I think Miracles is still better. Pyromancer/Jeskai Ascendacy have great chemistry but i think Top/Counter Balance interact better. It is great for modern but i do not think it beats putting a emrakul out on the first three turns

ApolloGod

10-14-2014, 09:16 AM

I've been doing a lot of testing against various opponents. The most difficult match-up so far is against Rock variants or decks with heavy discard/sacrifice components. In any case, the deck is still immensely fun to play. Several people have commented with something along the lines of "...why play this when you can play XYZ deck. XYZ is superior."

The deck has a tremendous amount of potential (even in Legacy.) It just requires the proper amount of testing. Card choice plays a huge role as well. There are so many cards to choose from in legacy and the interactions in the deck can become complex at times.

To keep us on track, I've been testing the deck without Burning Wish. I've been using Glittering Wish instead. I forget where I saw the idea, but I have put 1x Clan Defiance in the sideboard.

Darkenslight

10-14-2014, 02:27 PM

Thinking about dropping the Green altogether, and going full-on Jeskai colors:

Lands (20):

3 Flooded Strand
3 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
2 Plateau
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Combo (10):

4 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Spikeshot Elder
2 Giant Solifuge

Spells (30):

4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Apostle's Blessing
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Manamorphose
4 Force of Will

Note the usage of Apostle's Blessing in the deck, which can protect either the Elder or any of your artifacts from Abrupt Decay. It's a simple, effective way of protecting your Spikeshot Elder kill. Your entire curve, barring the Solifuge and the Ascendancy, can be cast for 0, 1 or 2 mana. I wasn't sure if it would have been better to have Opt in over Ponder, so that almost everything can be cast as an instant. You're still relying on instants to win, but it's more interestingto watch.

An alternative build can be made around Grapeshot and Pyromancer's Swath in the place of the creatures in the above list, as you should easily be able to get to 7 storm that way, and the build would be creatureless.

Valtrix

10-14-2014, 02:31 PM

Darkenslight

10-14-2014, 05:20 PM

Can you elaborate on your choice of wanting to drop green? What advantages/disadvantages do you think it offers? It seems to me you still rely on creatures to win and that you reduce the speed and consistency in exchange for a slightly better manabase.

The Solifuge is untargetable by design and has trample. The alternative is to play only instants and sorceries that are cheap and draw cards in addition to their effects, and move to a Storm kill (Grape+Swath, for example) in the main, and move to a creature-based SB with shroud/hexproof/TNN cretaures as your wincon.

Valtrix

10-14-2014, 05:43 PM

TsumiBand

10-14-2014, 06:13 PM

If you're gonna go that route aren't you just playing Sligh with a weird enchantment? There's no combo finish, except that your random guys have more power than before. There's little reason not to just go full Jetski Sligh style and run good-enough Prowess guys and a Kiln Fiend or something.

May as well add like one of the Familiars to make stuff like Manamorphose cost less, at least try to net some mana while you're going-off-but-not.

rufus

10-14-2014, 07:03 PM

Considering the 0 cc artifact approach been musing on the possibility of a Riddlesmith/Mirran Spy approach, but that just seems to be bad.

Darkenslight

10-15-2014, 01:36 AM

So your plan is to just use Jeskai for value and to pump your guys up to swing over several turns? It was unclear to me how you were "comboing" before, but you just want to get a few damage every turn I guess, since there's no ways to actually combo in your list. This seems pretty slow as Jeskai will only give you mabye 3-4 damage per turn.

I was trying to find any decent cantrip effects that cost :r: , and the only one that comes to mind is Overmaster. The crux of the deck is playing cards that can get you to card neutrality, rather than the strict card disadvantage inherent to the Ascendancy. That's why I was considering the GShot kill main and the aggro-hybrid in the board, with TNNs and Invisible Stalkers in the board.

rufus

10-15-2014, 11:18 AM

I was trying to find any decent cantrip effects that cost :r: , and the only one that comes to mind is Overmaster. The crux of the deck is playing cards that can get you to card neutrality, rather than the strict card disadvantage inherent to the Ascendancy. That's why I was considering the GShot kill main and the aggro-hybrid in the board, with TNNs and Invisible Stalkers in the board.

Active Volcano can be card neutral if you return your own island, and Fossil Find is likely to be CA neutral. I'm not sure either of those is really playable though.

Cire

10-15-2014, 04:10 PM

And even the mediocre Modern deck is obscene. The Base of the Standard/Modern decks is UG, and they typically play both DTT and TC, to reduce the chance of fizzling. The standard version uses a 0-cost artifact (Astral Cornucopia) and Retraction Helix to 'go infinite'. Its wincon is an Altar of the Brood main, and it was one of the decks to go 4-0-1 on Day 1 of the PT.

Can this version be "legacied" instead of the storm version?

Here is a 0 protection list that's only goal is to get the combo off as fast as possible. My idea was turn 2.

The idea being Turn 1 - Land + Mana Dork. (Mox + Discard) + Enlightened tutor. Turn 2 Land + Ascendancy + Retraction Helix/Banishing Knack. Yeah that's a god hand, but we can have a lot of redundancy.

20 Lands
4 Mox Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 NH
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Retraction Helix
4 Banishing Knack
4 Ascendancy
4 Enlightened tutor
3 Avacyn's Pilgrim
1 Laboratory Maniac

I gold fished with it, and found that it's a pretty consistent turn 2 kill. I mean it's useless since it has no protection of any type but there you go.

However.

When assessing Combo decks in Legacy, you have to ask yourself the following questions:
1.) Does this play more or better disruption and/or countermagic than ANT/TES/Show'n'Tell?
2.) Is this faster or more resilient than Belcher or Dredge?

Lets see I doubt this would be faster than oops!, belcher or Dredge, (I think it might have a better turn 2 win ratio, but it has no turn 1 capabilities, and is also more fragile) so we should be going for the more protection route. Those decks run around 8-10 Protection spells and average - it seems like to me - turn 3/4. So for this deck to be given a shot it needs to either run 10+ Protection and combo off turn 3/4 or run 8-10 protection and combo off turn 2/3. Thus for the above list to be competitive it needs 11 or more protection spells shoved in. So that's my next goal

Darkenslight

10-15-2014, 04:50 PM

Cire, I think you mean one of the other Moxen than the second set of Diamonds. :tongue:

Cire

10-15-2014, 04:54 PM

Oops, yeah - chrome mox. Again my list is not a "good list" it's supposed to be just the fasted possible the Helix/Ascendacy combo can go off consistently. I think for the deck to make sense as a playable deck you need to shove 11+ protection spells into it (which will slow it down to turn 3/4 . . . hopefully not higher). Even then I don't know if the helix route is better than the storm route.

apple713

10-15-2014, 05:28 PM

Can this version be "legacied" instead of the storm version?

Here is a 0 protection list that's only goal is to get the combo off as fast as possible. My idea was turn 2.

The idea being Turn 1 - Land + Mana Dork. (Mox + Discard) + Enlightened tutor. Turn 2 Land + Ascendancy + Retraction Helix/Banishing Knack. Yeah that's a god hand, but we can have a lot of redundancy.

20 Lands
4 Mox Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 NH
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Retraction Helix
4 Banishing Knack
4 Ascendancy
4 Enlightened tutor
3 Avacyn's Pilgrim
1 Laboratory Maniac

I gold fished with it, and found that it's a pretty consistent turn 2 kill. I mean it's useless since it has no protection of any type but there you go.

However.

Lets see I doubt this would be faster than oops!, belcher or Dredge, (I think it might have a better turn 2 win ratio, but it has no turn 1 capabilities, and is also more fragile) so we should be going for the more protection route. Those decks run around 8-10 Protection spells and average - it seems like to me - turn 3/4. So for this deck to be given a shot it needs to either run 10+ Protection and combo off turn 3/4 or run 8-10 protection and combo off turn 2/3. Thus for the above list to be competitive it needs 11 or more protection spells shoved in. So that's my next goal

you might start by cutting 2x of each mox and 2x banishing knack 1x pilgrim. thats 7 to start

Quizzlemanizzle

10-16-2014, 10:13 AM

you might start by cutting 2x of each mox and 2x banishing knack 1x pilgrim. thats 7 to start

I think the Laboratory Maniac is not good. When you managed to cantrip through your entire deck why rely on Maniac?

Brain Freeze, Grapeshot, Tendrils, Fling or combat with a Bird should all do the job?

Quizzlemanizzle

10-16-2014, 10:20 AM

A storm spell is only good in these situations:

1) Cannot win via combat damage
2) You did not get Xantid Swarm out (in my build)
3) They did not counter or remove Jeskai
4) If 3, that means they probably only have flusterstorm, spell snare, or misdirection as their counterspell

The odds of getting all the way to part 4 seems pretty slim, but I do imagine that it could happen. Grapeshot is, unfortunately, a pretty dead card in general which is why it's not good in the maindeck (in my opinion). It reduces your consistency. But, situations like this could come up. I think perhaps the better option would be to play a 1-of Silence which you can cast during your combo turn before going for the flesh // blood. An additional protection spell is nice and it can help with a corner case like this.

And yes, there are a lot of different components to the deck so there are many potential ways to attack it. In terms of actually comboing off once you get the pieces together (Jeskai + guy), you can win from that basically every game. I'm most interested in building decks and this concept really appeals to me for one reason or another, so even if the deck can't end up being truly competitive I still want to try to push a new idea to see what I can do with it.

You are complaining about 1 Grapeshot or 1 Brain Freeze as a win condition in the 60 can sometimes be a dead card but at the same time you run Xantid Swarm and 4 Glittering Wish in the main, which comes up to 7 potentially dead cards at least.
Something does not compute here.

Glittering Wish for Flesh/Blood seems pretty awful in legacy when you could just as easily just dig through your deck for that 1 storm kill card to avoid combat or Fling or Merchant Scroll for Brainfreeze.

I bet that a game where you have to cast Glittering Wish for Jeskai Ascendancy has at best a 5% chance of winning in legacy. <1% if you also have to Glittering Wish for Flesh and Blood to finish the game. Essentially winning games only when the opponent stumbles on mana.

Cire

10-16-2014, 12:52 PM

you might start by cutting 2x of each mox and 2x banishing knack 1x pilgrim. thats 7 to start

Any reason for those cards? I am currently testing -2 Pilgrim, -4 Lotus, -1 Mox Diamond, -1 Land, -1 banishment Knack for a hypothetical 9 protection spells. I'll let you know how consistent of a turn 3 that particular configuration is.

As for why Library Maniac - why not rely on a win con that doesn't use the graveyard or the attack phase and that can pitch to FOW if need be and allow you to attack with a infinite power BOP?

ApolloGod

10-16-2014, 01:56 PM

You are complaining about 1 Grapeshot or 1 Brain Freeze as a win condition in the 60 can sometimes be a dead card but at the same time you run Xantid Swarm and 4 Glittering Wish in the main, which comes up to 7 potentially dead cards at least.
Something does not compute here.

Glittering Wish for Flesh/Blood seems pretty awful in legacy when you could just as easily just dig through your deck for that 1 storm kill card to avoid combat or Fling or Merchant Scroll for Brainfreeze.

I bet that a game where you have to cast Glittering Wish for Jeskai Ascendancy has at best a 5% chance of winning in legacy. <1% if you also have to Glittering Wish for Flesh and Blood to finish the game. Essentially winning games only when the opponent stumbles on mana.

With proper protection, a wishboard adds redundancy and resiliency to a deck. There are several successful decks with wishes (burning, cunning) that do well. Glittering Wish hasn't been featured prominently in legacy but that doesn't mean we can't try to incorporate it into a deck.

High Tide decks don't just rely on 1 Brain Freeze in the main. They utilize a protection suite and a robust wishboard if that plan fails. If the original storm plan fizzles, the deck can try again using Cunning Wish. The same principle applies to Jeskai combo; try plan A (storm or combat) and if that fails then go for plan B (using the robust wishboard.)

I'm not claiming that Glittering Wish is the best option for the deck (I've switched between glittering and burning,) but I do think that Glittering Wish provides several lines of play.

Quizzlemanizzle

10-16-2014, 02:19 PM

With proper protection, a wishboard adds redundancy and resiliency to a deck. There are several successful decks with wishes (burning, cunning) that do well. Glittering Wish hasn't been featured prominently in legacy but that doesn't mean we can't try to incorporate it into a deck.

High Tide decks don't just rely on 1 Brain Freeze in the main. They utilize a protection suite and a robust wishboard if that plan fails. If the original storm plan fizzles, the deck can try again using Cunning Wish. The same principle applies to Jeskai combo; try plan A (storm or combat) and if that fails then go for plan B (using the robust wishboard.)

I'm not claiming that Glittering Wish is the best option for the deck (I've switched between glittering and burning,) but I do think that Glittering Wish provides several lines of play.

There are some fundamental differences..

Burning Wish decks can usually turn 1 or at least win on the turn they wish.

Cunning Wish decks are usually the same except High Tide does not win on turn 1. However High Tide actually interacts with the opponent. High Tide does not really use Brain Freeze, their combo is not to storm, it is to get infinite mana and cast Zenith on your opponent. That is also why it can afford Cunning Wish.

Glittering Wish for Ascendancy is terrible in legacy, you are much better of playing 4 Ascendancy in the main instead of Glittering Wish. Unlike Modern you don't have 4 turns to assemble your combo. Your main priority has to be to get Ascendancy in your hand as soon as possible and that is why you have to run 4 in the main and hope to start with it or draw it on turn 1 or 2.

Quizzlemanizzle

10-16-2014, 02:24 PM

Any reason for those cards? I am currently testing -2 Pilgrim, -4 Lotus, -1 Mox Diamond, -1 Land, -1 banishment Knack for a hypothetical 9 protection spells. I'll let you know how consistent of a turn 3 that particular configuration is.

As for why Library Maniac - why not rely on a win con that doesn't use the graveyard or the attack phase and that can pitch to FOW if need be and allow you to attack with a infinite power BOP?

Maniac costs 1 more mana than Grapeshot or Brainfreeze

It also dies to removal in respose to you attempting to draw, making you potentially lose the game.

It can be countered by anything.

It loses to Humility.

It can't be tutored for by Merchant Scroll, Burning Wish or Cunning Wish.

It requires to cantrip through your entire library.

The only advantage that it has is that it beats Leyline of Sanctity but you can run sideboard cards for that like Chain of Vapor.

Cire

10-16-2014, 03:02 PM

Maniac costs 1 more mana than Grapeshot or Brainfreeze
It also dies to removal in respose to you attempting to draw, making you potentially lose the game.
It can be countered by anything.
It loses to Humility.
It can't be tutored for by Merchant Scroll, Burning Wish or Cunning Wish.
It requires to cantrip through your entire library.
The only advantage that it has is that it beats Leyline of Sanctity but you can run sideboard cards for that like Chain of Vapor.

Well since I am running the helix version of the combo instead of the "storm/cantrip" version of the combo - I get infinite mana and I cantrip through the whole library (barring spot removal). Since I cantrip through the whole library - I don't need anything that needs to be searched for by any wish . . . I guess the countering thing is true - but all your other cards are counterable - so that's a moot point. If they want they'll just counter the ascendancy and win. Spot removal can also take care of my sole elf. . . this isn't an instant speed combo - so again like the countering, if they have spot removal they win regardless of the win con. So really the only difference is that it loses to humility. Given that Leyline of Sanctity is played more than humility I'd prefer to win over it more than humility. And the deck doesn't really have room for sideboard cards yet (again the legacy helix version i'm working on). Currently I am testing the "9" protection suite and I am unimpressed. While my previous deck could go off turn 2 (no protection whatsoever) with a really high consistency (my notes have it at 90% - but 1) take that with a grain of salt and 2) again useless info since it had no protection or turn 1 capabilities) the one with 9 protection spells averages closer to turn 4 than turn 3.

ApolloGod

10-16-2014, 04:00 PM

There are some fundamental differences..

Burning Wish decks can usually turn 1 or at least win on the turn they wish.

Cunning Wish decks are usually the same except High Tide does not win on turn 1. However High Tide actually interacts with the opponent. High Tide does not really use Brain Freeze, their combo is not to storm, it is to get infinite mana and cast Zenith on your opponent. That is also why it can afford Cunning Wish.

Glittering Wish for Ascendancy is terrible in legacy, you are much better of playing 4 Ascendancy in the main instead of Glittering Wish. Unlike Modern you don't have 4 turns to assemble your combo. Your main priority has to be to get Ascendancy in your hand as soon as possible and that is why you have to run 4 in the main and hope to start with it or draw it on turn 1 or 2.

A couple of counterpoints:

1.) Glittering wish for Ascendancy is not the ideal situation, and it happens a lot less often that you might expect. The robust cantrip and filter suite of the deck offers consistency in finding the maindeck Ascendancy.

2.) When Glittering Wish is used at the end of the combo (to find Flesh//Blood for instance,) rather than at the beginning (to fetch Jeskai), the deck functions quite well. I don't have an exact percentage available, but I can say with relative certainty that Glittering for Jeskai happens far less often than drawing/starting with Jeskai and Glittering for the finisher.

3.) I've played a fair amount of games with and against High Tide. The quicker win is with brain freeze. In my personal experiences, wishing or scrolling for Zenith is a secondary or alternate win condition. I used to try to make Zenith the primary wincon, but I found myself looping tirelessly through scrolls, wishes, and spirals to generate the necessary mana.

4.) I'm quite comfortable, with appropriate counters/protection, building to a turn 4 win. I rather have a stable turn 4 than an all-in turn 2 for which I didn't prepare well.

Cire

10-17-2014, 02:00 PM

So I wasn't at all happy with the Helix version of the deck with the protection spells shoed in. I guess after making the turn version I expected the deck to combo off turn 3 with protection more consistently than it actually did. So I got fed up with the deck and decided to approach it from the other end - make it a dedicated turn 4 and see how much protection spells I can have. The most effective protection though in this case would be proactive instead of reactive and thus I made this 5 color monstrosity. Yes it loses pretty bad to blood moon and especially to wasteland, I'm sure a genius or anyone else can come up with a better manabase but this was done for strictly theoretical purposes.

The plan was to

Turn 1- Land --> Discard
Turn 2- Land --> Discard + Mana Dork
Turn 3- Discard + Search
Turn 4- Play Ascendancy --> cast 0 mana artifact. Untap Mana Dork --> cast Retraction Helix --> Win.

4 City of Brass
4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Forbidden Orchard

4 Thought Seize
4 Duress
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Retraction Helix
4 Noble Heirach
4 Bop
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Inquisition of Koz
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dismember
2 Banishing Knack
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Astral Cornucopia

The theory is that by turn 4 you have stripped 3 cards from their hand (or board, I guess you can play more dismembers and other creature kill), you can go off turn 4 safely. Note that I finally realized you can use enlightened tutor to search up a 0 mana artifact if you're missing one and you have an ascendancy in hand. The 0 mana artifact i used was EE with the assumption that one time or another you will have to hardcast it and sac before you go off or something. Anyway I'll try to figure out the mana base - but it looks pretty impossible. . . I mean you need B on turn 1, G and W on turn 2-3, and then assuming you still have the mana dork you need UR on turn 4. After figuring that out I'll run this 5 color monstrosity against some other decks and see if 16 discard spells and a turn 4 combo are any good together.

TsumiBand

10-17-2014, 02:31 PM

If you're flatly committed to tapping for weird shitty colors in the opening turns, there are actually quite a lot of mana fixers in lands nowadays. They have a handful of ugly drawbacks, but it isn't impossible to just play all the colors and hope no one is slinging Blood/Waste/things you would die to anyway so you may as well Cast All The Spells ASAP.

City of Brass
Reflecting Pool
Mana Confluence
Gemstone Mine
Forbidden Orchard
Undiscovered Paradise
Thran Quarry

I wouldn't suggest, like... a *playset* of each/any of these, but they exist.

Otherwise, it seems advantageous to really try to limit the colors you're playing. In Legacy the benefit of fetchlands is clear; we can rock BUG/RUG/Bant crunchy stuff without actually getting super-pwned by Wasteland (it tends to punish bad draws more than multi-colors anyway). If one could determine a method for playing this deck that doesn't involve going into Green, then there might be some more merit to it. Possibly.

Gold/Iron/Leaden Myr? :D

Cire

10-17-2014, 04:21 PM

As you can see I did note that the mana base was ugly as hell - the above list was made for the soul purpose of "Consistent turn 4 kill with as many proactive protection spells as I could fit into it" - It still hasn't had a real game yet so I can't even claim if it is good. All I can say is that gold-fishing it leads to turn 4 kills (sometimes earlier sometimes later, but 4 pretty much all the time) and it can draw and play 3 discard spells (on average) by turn 4. Whether in a real game that would be any good, IDK yet. Do I wish the mana base could be better? Hell yes. My ideas on that are trying to figure out how to put in mox's and replacing all the black discard spells with stuff like FOW/Misdirection to keep it 4 color. First I want to test if there is merit in the turn 4 approach.

rufus

10-18-2014, 02:06 AM

Another bad idea for the pile: Savor the Moment is a cantrip that gives all your creatures haste. Unfortunately, the casting cost is a bit high.

...Note that I finally realized you can use enlightened tutor to search up a 0 mana artifact if you're missing one and you have an ascendancy in hand. ...

It seems like it might make sense to look for other 1-of utility artifacts to include like Lotus Petal or maybe Ornithopter.

Darkenslight

10-18-2014, 04:39 AM

Another bad idea for the pile: Savor the Moment is a cantrip that gives all your creatures haste. Unfortunately, the casting cost is a bit high.

It seems like it might make sense to look for other 1-of utility artifacts to include like Lotus Petal or maybe Ornithopter.

Petal, yes; Thopter does less work, being a creature.

Pastorofmuppets

10-18-2014, 06:12 AM

You could run Paradise Mantle and a full set of tall men.

DoorDie

10-19-2014, 04:38 AM

There are some fundamental differences..

Burning Wish decks can usually turn 1 or at least win on the turn they wish.

Cunning Wish decks are usually the same except High Tide does not win on turn 1. However High Tide actually interacts with the opponent. High Tide does not really use Brain Freeze, their combo is not to storm, it is to get infinite mana and cast Zenith on your opponent. That is also why it can afford Cunning Wish.

Glittering Wish for Ascendancy is terrible in legacy, you are much better of playing 4 Ascendancy in the main instead of Glittering Wish. Unlike Modern you don't have 4 turns to assemble your combo. Your main priority has to be to get Ascendancy in your hand as soon as possible and that is why you have to run 4 in the main and hope to start with it or draw it on turn 1 or 2.

Burning Wish decks are also built on unstable mana acceleration and must go off quickly to minimize risk of blowout. Their T1 is a nut draw and not consistent. Ascendancy is much closer to Elves, who also have no T1 kill but still race adequately via consistent T3 kills. T2 is their nut draw but typically a setup turn. Wish doesn't need to be cast on the same turn here.

Interaction is very affordable postboard, but Ascendancy can also just race G1. High Tide needs interaction or else it will lose to faster combo (T3 is rare in High Tide as I understand it).

Adding virtual copies is actually the best way to get it ASAP since a) you can't plan on going off before T3 anyway, and b) you have zero backup combo. I can't think of any successful Legacy combo archetype that wins exclusively on only 4 cards they can't tutor for (TES has Burning Wish + Infernal Tutor, High Tide has Merchant Scroll + High Tide, Elves has Glimpse of Nature + Natural Order as backup, Reanimator has Entomb + Careful Study, Sneak and Show has... well, you get the point).

Cire

10-27-2014, 05:45 PM

Still very fragile, but I got it to a comfortable turn 3 ratio with a lot of protection/interactivity.

6 Fetch
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Island

4 BOP
4 NH
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Helix
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 STP
2 Misdirection
2 Pact of Negation
1 Banishing Knack
1 Laboratory Maniac

Some notes from playing the deck:

1) Again, it bears mentioning that the deck is very fragile, even with the protection. Unlike storm combo or two card combos, you need to protect/ensure 4 cards get into play and stay in play. The good news is that you have the protection. The bad news is that sometimes it is not enough. Most of the protection offered by the deck is 2 for 1 protection, which means that throughout the game (going off turn 3) you only have 2 protection spells (including STP) instead of 3.

2) I tried replacing STP with Chain of Vapor, but that was stupid. You need the mana dorks in play! However outside Thalia and Meddling mage - we are more concerned with Blood Moon and Magus than anything else - again because of the 4 color mana base. In fact I think the black version was better simply because it was more proactive about protection. We really didn't gain anything from losing black - since we are still super vulnerable to mana denial.

3) really want to find room for a 2nd Lab maniac, so if you draw him without brainstorm, you can just pitch him to your pitch spells, but I have no clue what to cut, and whenever I do i regret it.

4) This is the big one: currently this deck is just not competitive due to Wasteland. It just straight up loses to it. Until we can find cards to replace BOP and NH, with colorless cards - then there really is no point to working on this deck unless we figure out how to make it 3 colors. I tried the paradise mantle suggestion. . . it worked, but it wasn't pretty. The main problem was that instead of the game plan being - Mana dork --> search for Ascendancy --> combo. It became. 0 mana dork --> search for Ascendancy or Paradise mantle. This split up the search, making it less consistent, Moreover you needed to play and equip the mantle the turn before you went off. (Also revoker and needle became more annoying). This list wanted ponders pretty badly, more protection.

5 Fetch
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Plain
2 Island
2 Mountain

4 Meminite
4 Ornithopter
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Helix
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Brainstorm
4 FoW
4 Daze
3 Misdirection
2 Banishing Knack
1 Laboratory Maniac

Other than that I'm going to move on, this were my best shots at making it competitive - and while fun their weaknesses to wasteland and almost everything else has convinced me that it is simply not worth the effort.

lampsa

10-30-2014, 07:40 PM

Haven't really played this deck, but I think Mystic Speculation (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Mystic%20Speculation) might be a card to look into. It seems to let you "go infinite" and rearrange your deck in the process for :2::u: from your mana dorks.

ShiftyKapree

11-09-2014, 12:50 AM

I know this may sound silly since wasteland is a huge threat to the deck but what if we run 3-4 Pithing Needles in the maindeck?

Darkenslight

11-09-2014, 06:49 PM

I know this may sound silly since wasteland is a huge threat to the deck but what if we run 3-4 Pithing Needles in the maindeck?

Honestly, if you're having issues with Wastelands on their own, then you're likely doing something wrong.

I have a potential list here that should be interesting:

Lands

4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
2 Plateau
5 Island
2 Mountain
1 Plains

Combo:

4 Slippery Bogle
4 Invisible Stalker
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Retraction Helix

Stuff:

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Negate
4 Crimson Wisps

SB:

4 Pyroblast
4 Shattering Spree
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Redirect

The rationale for the sideboard is that you want cards that can also trigger Jeskai Ascendancy, and that can protect the Ascendancy as well. There's a lower priority on Plains as the list is basically URw; you have access to '13' White sources, '19' Blue sources and '16' Red sources. Possible includes are Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time as actual CA, as the only source of CA under thr Ascendancy is the Wisps, which are relevant for extra draws. I was tempted to reduce the mana count for Lotus Petals, but that would need more testing.

Vacrix

11-30-2014, 07:16 PM

This is really awesome dude. I can't think of anything more satisfying than beating your opponent to death with Birds of Paradise and Xantid Swarm.

Glittering Wish could be better than Etutor in a deck that has protection. But I'm leaning toward the faster Land Grant/Etutor lists over lists that play protection. As far as protection goes, though, Chant/Silence are options. They are great for disrupting storm combo, and are virtual time walks while you're setting up. The problem is Chant/Silence don't protect your mana dorks from removal. Then again, you can cast them while you are chaining cantrips together if you need to, unlike counterspells.

You know, when I saw Noble Hierarch and Birds of Paradise in the same list, my mind immediately went to UGw Turbo Stasis. Quirion Rangers would allow you to stabilize your mana base a little better seeing that it allows you all sorts of tricks like bouncing a forest dual in response to a Wasteland trigger, combo with other mana dorks so you can turn 2 more often, and bounce/replaying your forest duals if you miss a land drop. Running more mana dorks though means fewer non-creatures spells and more hands where you have more dorks than cantrip/pieces. But there were so many different lists that differ from the OP that I figured I'd mention the Stasis angle. It great against control and it comes out so fast against a lot of decks that it can beat decks it really isn't supposed to. It could work its way into one of these lists that favors Etutor over Glittering Wish. Also, it could be a pretty fun post-board transformation.

Stasis also functions as one more thing they have to answer. If, say, the deck were to run 4 copies of each Jeskai, Stasis, and Etutor, there you have 12 pretty solid threats. With the amount of cantrips this deck has, that could be a lot for a control player to deal with vs. the current lists that have, say 7 to 8 threats. Then again, you'd need space to fit in things to interact with Stasis.. things like Forsaken City and Quirion Ranger. Other options we see in Stasis decks are bounce effects like Chain of Vapor. The lists running Helix/Knack conveniently have a means of bouncing Stasis rather easily without taking up deck space.

Another tidbit about Stasis... if you have Jeskai Ascendancy and Stasis in play, you can cantrip to untap your mana dorks and hold down the lock. So these 2 cards can work together. In most cases, its totally irrelevant, since it makes more sense for Ascendancy to come out before Stasis.. so you'd just combo and win. In other cases, you could be facing down a lot of discard and you just don't have the hand to combo.

I would prefer to run a slower but more resistant build with 4 Caryatids and 4 GSZ. Zero birds and zero Heirarch. This makes the deck creature removal resistant. Then pack stuff like Force/Abeyance etc like a regular combo deck. Trying to win past removal AND counters seems very difficult. Has the same issues ala painter except this deck doesn't have moons of Chalice.
This is a really important point. I think the fact that the deck CAN turbo out a fast Jeskai doesn't mean it has to. But its easy to go that direction since it only costs 3.

jbone2016

12-03-2014, 04:43 AM

Brad Nelson 4-0 a daily and should have vids going up on it soon.

SevenInTheQueue

12-03-2014, 03:32 PM

Brad Nelson 4-0 a daily and should have vids going up on it soon.

Rich Shay also 4-0'd a daily event, and had his list (with comments) up on Reddit(?)

alphastryk

12-03-2014, 04:15 PM

Rich Shay also 4-0'd a daily event, and had his list (with comments) up on Reddit(?)

Yep - http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/2o4c9w/legacy_jeskai_ascendancy_control_i_just_40d_a/

merfolkotpt

12-05-2014, 08:26 AM

It is basically the exact same list that Nelson used. It looked insane. Basically the legacy version of the deck that Wrapter played at Champs for Modern.

Philipp2293

12-05-2014, 10:33 AM

Looking at Shay's and Nelson's list, I wonder if it might be viable to replace one SB Kor Firewalker with a Blind Obedience, which also presents a stream of lifegain (although no blocker) vs UR and Burn, but is another winoption through different situations you might encounter in Legacy like Moat with no Faerie Conclave, Ensnaring Bridge, Glacial Chasm etc - or do you think paying for extort is slowing down too much when comboing?

Darkenslight

12-05-2014, 11:48 AM

Vacrix

12-05-2014, 04:05 PM

Intuition could be useful. Find 3 Fatestichers when you want to combo.. or tutor for Jeskai.. feed the yard for Treasure Cruise. And it could also move the build forward if its good enough to build around with things like Snapcaster or Pyromancer's Ascension.

nodahero

12-05-2014, 05:02 PM

I don't hate the idea of Intuition because then as noted, you get access to a true tutor and also shenaigans like 3 Therapies to flashback off of a Pyromancer's tokens however, where do the cuts come in?

L-Luck

12-06-2014, 06:16 AM

Is the reason that the deck plays no Sensei's Divining Top because it is banned in modern and was missed in the porting process? The card seems perfect for digging for Ascendancy, winning with Ascendancy and dismembering half the meta after boarding with Counterbalances.

.Ix

12-06-2014, 06:53 PM

I do think the deck can fit a few sensei in, maybe even the full set. Boarding into CB seems very solid, and looping two tops with jeskai should be really easy.

nodahero

12-06-2014, 07:13 PM

Again, I don't hate the idea but where do we fit them in?

Creatures (8)
4 Fatestitcher
4 Young Pyromancer

Spells (33)
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Pyroblast
1 Swords to Plowshares
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Treasure Cruise

Lands (19)
1 Plains
4 Arid Mesa
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island

That was the list I played today to a 3-1 record. The deck felt really good however, it is alot easier to play on MTGO with it ensuring you don't miss triggers and tracking your mana---- not that its hard but, it is less to worry about which over a full event can get daunting.

I cut the Spell Pierce and a StP to up the Blast and Bolt count to 4. That way I can basically always cast them and I couldn't think of anything StP hit that Bolt would that I would ALSO care about. Lastly, I ran a basic Plains over an island as a concession to needing an out to Choke/Blood Moon to better facilitate this I opted for 4 Mesa over 2 Tarns.

Thoughts?

I wasn't very thrilled with the basic plains but perhaps it is needed?

TraxDaMax

12-06-2014, 09:21 PM

I do think the deck can fit a few sensei in, maybe even the full set. Boarding into CB seems very solid, and looping two tops with jeskai should be really easy.
Been goldfishing them main together with 2 E-tutors main(finds top/balance/ascendancy) and side an extra tutor plus sideboard options to tutor for (Helm+rip side for instance). I need to take it to the field tomorrow, I'll post how it went.

anwei

12-06-2014, 10:24 PM

I played a small IRL event today with 1 Intuition over the 2nd Pierce, and did okay, but lost to Elves and Dredge in games that weren't really winnable with my draws.
In testing, I definitely want to try 2-3x SDT. Trading removal and countermagic with blue fair decks and then finding/resolving Ascendancy without cantrips is miserable.

Darkenslight

12-07-2014, 01:50 PM

I think this is the rare case where you want Preordain over Ponder main, though that would definitely need testing. Fewer shuffle-effects over more imposing card quality.

Madmankevinx

12-07-2014, 02:03 PM

Abrupt Decay seems good against this deck.

Holly

12-07-2014, 02:09 PM

Abrupt Decay seems good against this deck.

Also Wasteland destroys Tundra.
Seriously.. what did you want to express with your post? Don't play any permament with cmc <=3 unless it has shroud/hexproof?

MaximumC

12-07-2014, 02:15 PM

Also Wasteland destroys Tundra.
Seriously.. what did you want to express with your post? Don't play any permament with cmc <=3 unless it has shroud/hexproof?

"Dies to removal" is a good argument when it means that you're going to brick against a very commonly played card.

Here, it's hard for Ascendancy to play around Decay. Unearth your Fatesticher first, who is conveniently immune to Decay, then cast Ascendancy. If you have two instant-speed cantrips in hand, you can try to go off past Decay. It's not easy, though, since any Sorcery speed cantrips are dead cards with Decay on the stack.

Holly

12-07-2014, 02:26 PM

Right at the moment Decay isn't played that commonly to be honest.
An other point to consider is, that decks like TA tend to be low on removal and might be forced to use it versus Pyromancer in an attempt to break through.
If lists also manage to include CB as suggested above (neither saying its correct/bad/whatever) you have another main target of Decay..

TraxDaMax

12-07-2014, 03:50 PM

Been goldfishing them main together with 2 E-tutors main(finds top/balance/ascendancy) and side an extra tutor plus sideboard options to tutor for (Helm+rip side for instance). I need to take it to the field tomorrow, I'll post how it went.
Carried the red lantern at a 27man lol.
1-4, losing vs ANT, UR Delver, Jund and Soldier Stompy, winning from Tezzerator.

Weebo

12-07-2014, 06:56 PM

Brad Nelson is 6-0 and a featured match in Portland playing Ascendancy combo right now. Just lost the first game to UR Delver.

edit: 6-1 after losing 0-2 to Delver. What was shown of the list looked like the last list (nodahero) in this thread - YP, Fatestitcher, Cruise, etc. There was at least one Mental Note alongside some number of Thought Scour.

anwei

12-07-2014, 10:16 PM

enzee

12-08-2014, 02:18 AM

Again, I don't hate the idea but where do we fit them in?

If you go the Top MD/counterbalance SB plan, you'd cut the StP and trim the pyroblasts in the main. Counterbalance is answering most of the things you'd use pyro to answer (spell pierce, brainstorm, ponder, delver, etc..) while also being a soft lock against some decks. Lightning bolt is enough removal to clean up whatever snuck thru before counterbalance came down. Plus, unlike miracles, we wouldn't be playing pure control. It's just to slow them down and potentially protect our combo.

I like the idea as well, but I'm not convinced if it's better then just comboing 'faster' like Nelson's new list with thought scours and such. We have a shortage of 2 drops to use with counterbalance, so the 'lock' is slightly weaker in our deck, but still strong.
I think the Top alone is good, due to it's ability to draw into a cantrip and then be recast to trigger ascendancy loots. It digs deeper here then most decks.

I also like the concept of enlightened tutor, but I wonder if the strength of this list is it's ability to play a 'fair' game when it can't combo and if focusing on the combo too much hurts or not. Having lightning bolts and such lets us just win like a weak UWR delver deck sometimes, with just pyromancer tokens.
Maybe all that is just distracting us though, and it could just be the fastest or most resilient combo in legacy. I'm really not sure. I'm leaning towards not, though. E-tutor makes the combo more fragile, by losing a draw step. If our tutor target is countered/removed, we basically got 2 for 1'd. Just presenting both sides before making a decision.

Has anyone considered a 1 or 2of Deep Analysis with the new milling cards in Nelson's list? Seems like you often get to a point where you have 0-1 cards in hand, but have an ascendancy out. You wait till you draw a cantrip or next draw to try and get value out of whatever you cast. Discarding fatestitcher to ascendancy is the best feeling, and deep analysis seems similar.

I think I may try 1x of it over 1 of the mental notes he's got in there now.

rufus

12-08-2014, 08:57 AM

List is up:
(http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=77156) 4 Thought Scour, 2 Mental Note, 0 Ponder.

Edit: Deck Tech (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_jeskai_ascendancy_co.html)

In the interview he was talking "instant instant instant." I wonder if he tested Dig Through Times.

anwei

12-08-2014, 01:03 PM

Has anyone considered a 1 or 2of Deep Analysis with the new milling cards in Nelson's list?

That does seem nice, and actual-cantripping into garbage seems like something he's more susceptible to if he starts to get low on cards. It's probably way too bulky and wrong, but cutting Looting and the Notes for 1 Deep Analysis, 1 Past in Flames, and 1 Intuition would have an insane ability to refuel in grindier games.

Dig @ Instant is nice, but "iffy" combo turns so often come down to quantity, since looting lets you ignore many bad draws, and if you're comboing at 1 mana and haven't hit a 2nd stitcher, hitting a dig and bricking is a pretty bad time.

Redkid43

12-08-2014, 01:34 PM

Not a fan of Nelson's deck. You actually need a turn to kill them through YP and there are too many outs with just attacking with Fatesticher and Faerie Conclave...

Grapeshot???

nodahero

12-08-2014, 03:59 PM

What outs are you referring to Redkid? Outside of Ensnaring Bridge I can't think of anything out of the ordianry... removal is always removal but we can counter that.

Ticalstal

12-08-2014, 06:16 PM

I tried the Rich Shay list with some minor tweaks this weekend at a local tournament (added dig through time and another bolt over 2 of the fate stitchers since treasure cruise is by far the best card in the deck and you go through your deck fast so I felt you didn't need to dedicate too much of your deck to cards only useful when you have ascendency out). Went 4-0 versus a diverse field and the deck felt very powerful because you are playing a reasonable UWR control deck that can go off and win out of nowhere. Unlike something like ANT, if you fizzle, you usually end up ahead on board or cards which means next turn you're set to hit them even harder.

The main issue I have with the deck however is that it felt like an underdog to UR delver given their removal and counter magic is live against your combo pieces and threat (YP) and their really fast clock.

pfiremc13

12-08-2014, 06:34 PM

I think punishing fire could be sick in this deck. It gives you a free discard to jeskai ascendancy, gives you extra pyromancer triggers, and gives more value to your thought scours and you can randomly mill it. Of course it could put a strain on the manabase, but it fits perfectly synergistically.

rufus

12-08-2014, 08:30 PM

That does seem nice, and actual-cantripping into garbage seems like something he's more susceptible to if he starts to get low on cards. It's probably way too bulky and wrong, but cutting Looting and the Notes for 1 Deep Analysis, 1 Past in Flames, and 1 Intuition would have an insane ability to refuel in grindier games. ...

I'm not sure how you expect to have 4-5 mana for Past in Flames and the flashback cost without already going off, so I think that, in particular is a poor fit.

anwei

12-08-2014, 09:13 PM

I'm not sure how you expect to have 4-5 mana for Past in Flames and the flashback cost without already going off, so I think that, in particular is a poor fit.

One major constraining factor of combo'ing off is card advantage. Looting and cantripping is card neutral, bolting/pyroblasting/countering is card negative; only cruise nets advantage. If you resolve Ascendancy and want to start comboing off, you need cantrip quantity or quality in your hand to not fizzle, and cutting Ponder makes that worse. Having to untap and start comboing with, e.g., Scour+Probe is pretty weak, as 4 isn't the safest number of draws. PiF gives you arbitrary card selection when you have enough starting mana.

Redkid43

12-08-2014, 10:37 PM

It's mostly removal I'm thinking about.

I mean, like, the deck seems fine. I would really like to see some free stuff in there too...like possibly a Storm spell or even stuff like Petal to get things going quicker...but since this build can play other side (beatdown and spells with YP) this seems more appealing.

My understanding is that you just attack with an army of Fatestitchers and win from there?

enzee

12-09-2014, 02:07 AM

You only need one fatestitcher, because it gets arbitrarily large and you then have infinite mana effectively. You also tap down all their blockers in the process with it. Nelson moved the 2nd conclave to the side, rather then cutting it, because you will occasionally play against a deck that can put a few too many blockers on the ground. But, that's generally not the case. It's hard for them to have enough blockers that you can't tap them all and still be getting in with at least one creature for lethal between the pyromancer + whatever tokens you have out.

enzee

12-09-2014, 02:37 AM

I should mention, the problem isn't winning once you cast enough spells (which is what a storm card wants) it's getting that chain going. Once you delve a treasure cruise with an ascendancy and fatestitcher out, you are probably going to win. You just chain cantrips together, that are already free spells due to fatestitcher untapping your land before it untaps from ascendancy.
You need enough 1 mana cantrips to ensure that the chain keeps going, while also playing enough protection for the combo and other spells to stall while you get out an ascendancy. Lotus petal might let us cast ascendancy sooner, but if we do that and it gets FoW'd, we are down more cards. The strength of the deck is that the combo is incredibly resilient and takes up a small enough portion of the deck that we can also run a fair amount of interactive spells. That's the strength of jeskai ascendancy, it can often just be a very high value card. Looting into more spells to beat down with elementals. If you go all-in on making the combo faster, it becomes a lot more fragile. If there weren't so many other blue decks running around, that might be the correct direction to take it, but I don't think so with the current meta.

nevilshute

12-09-2014, 03:28 AM

How do people feel about going down from 19 to 18 lands like Brad Nelson did? Also, I'm not sure how much one should actually hedge against Wastelands. Nelson, it seems, chose to completely ignore them and played zero basics.

From a conceptual point of view I'm not so thrilled with Nelson's choice to move more towards the combo-end of the spectrum by adding Thought Scours, Mental Notes and a singleton Faithless Looting.

Yes, it makes Treasure Cruise better (but I don't feel like that is strictly necessary as the deck is already efficient at putting cards in the yard quickly) and it makes it harder to fizzle (Thought Scour is a hell of a lot better with Ascendancy and active stitcher/conclave than, say, a Swords to Plowshares - most of the time). But it also makes the deck's non-combo elements weaker by basically filling up the deck with poor-to-situationally powerful cards. And I think that's one of the major draws of the deck - its ability to play a midrange/controlling game of magic extremely well. It's just gravy that it also has a pretty ridiculous combo engine as a finisher.

Again, this is merely from a conceptual stand point - I have not tested Nelson's Thought Scour / Mental Note tech.

SevenInTheQueue

12-09-2014, 04:02 AM

As mentioned earlier in the thread, Top seems to be a natural fit in this list. Having access to a CB sideboard plan, as well as a (somewhat) reliable way of going infinite via 2x Tops is nice. I'll be taking the following to an upcoming weekly.

4x Fatestitcher
4x Young Pyromancer

4x Jeskai Ascendancy
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Brainstorm
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Treasure Cruise
3x Thought Scour
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Spell Pierce

4x Flooded Strand
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Arid Mesa
3x Volcanic Island
3x Tundra
1x Faerie Conclave
1x Island

Sideboard:

3x Counterbalance
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Meddling Mage
1x Sulfur Elemental
2x Hydroblast
1x Pyroblast
2x Wear//Tear
1x Faerie Conclave

jhhdk

12-09-2014, 05:37 AM

Apologies if already suggested and rejected. Would Anger be worth considering in lists with Young Pyromancer?

HSCK

12-09-2014, 09:28 AM

I really want to find a place for Anger, I've cut one Fatestitcher for an Intuition, but wary to go lower than 3.

JDK

12-09-2014, 09:36 AM

As mentioned earlier in the thread, Top seems to be a natural fit in this list. Having access to a CB sideboard plan, as well as a (somewhat) reliable way of going infinite via 2x Tops is nice. I'll be taking the following to an upcoming weekly.

4x Fatestitcher
4x Young Pyromancer

4x Jeskai Ascendancy
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Brainstorm
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Treasure Cruise
3x Thought Scour
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Spell Pierce

4x Flooded Strand
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Arid Mesa
3x Volcanic Island
3x Tundra
1x Faerie Conclave
1x Island
I like the idea of Top, but I wouldn't go below 4 Thought Scour and you definitely should play two blue fetchlands instead of Arid Mesa to fetch the basic Island.

pfiremc13

12-09-2014, 10:21 AM

Darkenslight

12-09-2014, 11:47 AM

Another idea I had. The deck can play black for deathrite shaman and cabal therapy. Deathrite can act as a mini-fatestitcher, sculpting your hand to combo next turn or potentially the same turn. Also, multiple shocks add up quickly. Jeskai ascendancy fuels deathrite as well. Cabal therapy synergizes very well with young pyromancer and jeskai ascendancy in addition to protecting your combo from removal and whatnot. The downside is that treasure cruise gets much worse, but even with deathrite shaman + ascendancy even spell cast is another card in your graveyard, and you can also eat your opponent's graveyard.

I think that strains the mana base a little too far, but it's worth a test gameset. I only like the Top inclusion if you can net mana out of it; for example, I'd consider playing a hard-combo list that can bounce all of your opponent's nonland permanents (through Retraction Helix) then swinging in for the win. I'd have also considered Altar of the Brood in an Eldrazi-less meta as a 1-mana artifact.

HSCK

12-09-2014, 11:48 AM

I'd rather not splash as this shell is already vulnerable to being Wasted off color. After watching Levin's video I'm testing out:

Jeskai Combo

Creatures: 4
4 Young Pyromancer

Combo: 7
3 Fatestitcher
4 Jeskai Ascendancy

Countertop: 6
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Counterbalance

Card Draw: 15
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

Removal: 4
4 Swords to Plowshares

Countermagic: 6
1 Pyroblast
4 Force of Will

Lands: 19
2 Faerie Conclave
1 Plains
1 Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
2 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand

Sideboard: 15
1 Hydroblast
2 Wear // Tear
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Very excited to see if it works. Pyromancers were great against Blue decks last week, but poor against combo.

MaximumC

12-09-2014, 12:04 PM

Not a fan of Nelson's deck. You actually need a turn to kill them through YP and there are too many outs with just attacking with Fatesticher and Faerie Conclave...

Grapeshot???

Anger solves all of your problems with YP. Since Fatesticher and Conclave typically are not summoning sick when you're going off, they will probably be able to attack. Ditto any number of additional Fatestichers you drew into as you were going.

I do like Grapeshot in a metagame dominated by Delver, though. Once someone casts a spell, it's already a really solid piece of removal. I wonder why no one runs it?

thefreakaccident

12-09-2014, 12:18 PM

People don't run things like grapeshot because there isn't an original bone in their bodies. Cheers.

enzee

12-09-2014, 05:35 PM

No.. because it's a win more card. If you are using it as removal, sudden shock is better. If you are using it as a kill condition, it's irrelevant. We don't have a problem closing the game out, we have a problem starting the chain of cantrips, occasionally. Playing a different kill condition, or more kill conditions, just creates more dead cards in your hand when you trying to start the combo.

We were already trying to add in the top/cb lock to the deck, and now Levin posted a video with just that idea. It seems like he's merging the deck with miracles, and it appears to be working.

thefreakaccident

12-09-2014, 05:48 PM

Rood

12-09-2014, 06:19 PM

This deck is pretty awesome. I like how it can play both the control game and just combo someone out FTW.

Valendras

12-09-2014, 07:45 PM

Rich updated his list earlier today if y'all want the new version? (He's a friend of mine, we go to school & play together 😊)

edahl

12-09-2014, 08:16 PM

rich updated his list earlier today if y'all want the new version? (he's a friend of mine, we go to school & play together 😊)

give iiit!

Edit: Please :)

Valendras

12-09-2014, 08:25 PM

Straight from his Facebook 😊 I'm sure he wouldn't mind (I know he wouldn't actually lol, I asked him)

HSCK

12-09-2014, 10:29 PM

Interesting indeed, I think 5 is the right number too, but Izzet Charm and triple MD Pyroblast seems a bit risky.

EviL668-2

12-10-2014, 08:09 AM

I think this is a better read!

Lands

1 Arid Mesa
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island

Spells

4 Brainstorm
1 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Izzet Charm
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Ponder
3 Pyroblast
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thought Scour
4 Treasure Cruise

Creatures

4 Fatestitcher
3 Young Pyromancer

Sideboard

SB: 4 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Kor Firewalker
SB: 1 Hydroblast
SB: 1 Plains
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt

cab0747

12-10-2014, 08:48 AM

Interesting indeed, I think 5 is the right number too, but Izzet Charm and triple MD Pyroblast seems a bit risky.

Pyroblast keeps you going: It can target a non-blue permanent but only destroys the permanent if it is blue. So, you can cast it targeting a forest (unlike Red Elemental Blast), the spell will resolve, but the forest will not be destroyed.

Granted, it isn't great when you are looking to dig into an Ascendency, but once you are going, it won't hold you back.

HSCK

12-10-2014, 11:29 AM

I think the issue is what is it doing while you're getting ready to combo, but I guess in the matches you don't need it it doesn't matter too much?

rufus

12-10-2014, 12:13 PM

...
Granted, it isn't great when you are looking to dig into an Ascendency, but once you are going, it won't hold you back.

Like Lightning Bolt, Pyroblast is the sort of card that you expect to do work before the combo comes on-line. In decks that have a draw-go approach, there are too many good things to counter. You can also cast pyroblast to get Young Pyromancer tokens. Once you're going off, you would, of course, much rather see cantrips, but it's better than a land.

enzee

12-10-2014, 01:08 PM

cab0747

12-10-2014, 01:10 PM

Like Lightning Bolt, Pyroblast is the sort of card that you expect to do work before the combo comes on-line. In decks that have a draw-go approach, there are too many good things to counter. You can also cast pyroblast to get Young Pyromancer tokens. Once you're going off, you would, of course, much rather see cantrips, but it's better than a land.

Exactly. It has uses (especially right now) and even when there is not a blue permanent/spell it can still be used to trigger ascendency to pump creatures, loot, and create tokens. Three may seem a bit high, but Rich is moderately intelligent :laugh: I am sure he has thought about this number quite a bit. Give 3 a shot, if it hinders you too much, then cut one and continue testing, I would guess.

thecrav

12-10-2014, 03:16 PM

Man.. all these changes seem fine, but Drew Levin's counter top version just looked very strong in his videos. I tried playtesting it a bit yesterday, it's pretty tough to just pick up and play if you aren't experienced, but the power is definitely there.
It really helps shore up some of the bad matchups we have. He goes down to 1 life and then combos off without an ascendancy in play to start the turn (finds it and then goes off). But, he had delayed his opponent so much that he then had 6 mana on that turn, so it was easy.

My point being, with ascendancy costing 3 mana, you have to do something to stall your opponent while you build up your manabase and top/counterbalance is perfect for this. Not only does it help you dig to find the ascendancy, but locks some decks out of the game.

Oh, and btw, his match where he blind flips a fatestitcher to counter JTMS and his opponent just immediately scoops is one of the funniest things I've seen in weeks.

I played against him testing this deck. I can't see the video to see if I'm one of his victims but the deck was indeed quite cool. The biggest advantage he had against me was that I didn't see any of the combo game 1. As a result, my sideboarding was all kinds of not-right. One word of warning: He tweeted at me that while he thought the deck was really cool, it might not be playable on MTGO due to the number of triggers you have to go through, especially if your opponent doesn't see the combo and concede.

TraxDaMax

12-10-2014, 08:37 PM

The list I played last sunday to a terrible 1-4 didn't have Fatestitcher a)because I underestimated it b) don't have any
Going over the situations that occured, I realized that I suck and should have played it. CB/top was awesome for me all day. And sometimes really just hid what we are trying to do game 1.
The match I won was hilariously by bashing with doped up Elemental tokens and game 2 with RiP+Helm. I combo'ed 0 times with Conclave which leaves me biased about it.
One game vs Jund I got the infinite chain going with double top, but once in declare attackers it got Pyroblasted.
Obviously if I would have had Fatestitcher in my list I would have been able to return it aswell and create 2 deadly attackers. Lesson learned.
Levin's list looks good, only I recommend 4 top's. You always want them.

iostream

12-10-2014, 09:35 PM

I really like Levin's list, except I'm not sure about his suggestion at the end of the article to cut 3 Probe, 1 Pyroblast for 4 YP. I like Pyromancer, but it seems like cuts could be made elsewhere since you need a critical mass of cantrips to start going off with Ascendancy. 4 CB looked awkward for him in several matches, so I might shave 1 of those, and honestly 20 lands is a lot - definitely think you could cut 1-2 of those.

Pastorofmuppets

12-10-2014, 10:35 PM

Has anyone tested Wind Zendikon yet?

Darklingske

12-11-2014, 12:53 AM

Brad Nelson posted some video's yesterday in which he plays with Zendikon against D&T. It's premiumcontent, so not yet visible.

midgetaddict

12-11-2014, 12:58 AM

Took this list to my local legacy tournament tonight:

1x Arid Mesa
4x Brainstorm
1x Dig through time
2x Faerie Conclave
4x Fatestitcher
4x Flooded Strand
4x Force of Will
4x Gitaxian Probe
1x Island
4x Jeskai Ascendancy
2x Lightning Bolt
1x Mountain
3x Ponder
2x Pyroblast
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Swords to Plowshares
4x Thought scour
4x Treasure Cruise
3x Tundra
3x Volcanic Island
3x Young Pyromancer

SB:
2x Hydroblast
2x Kor Firewalker
2x Meddling Mage
2x Pithing Needle
1x Plains
1x Sulfur Elemental
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Wear // Tear

Record: 4-1 in matches

Swiss:

Death and Taxes: 2-1
Goblin Prison: 0-2
Foodchain: 2-0
Infect: 2-0

Top 8:

Miricles: 2-1

Top 4: Split

Death and Taxes: 2-1

He took game 1 after I decided not to FoW his turn 1 Mom and drew a bun of my removal. I was able to stick an Ascendency, be he had a revoker on Fatestitcher and a Plow for my Faerie Conclave and lethal on board. Game 2 I was able to control his board and combo'd off pretty quickly. Game 3 I had a turn 3 Sulfur Elemental which killed his Thalia, The next turn he played his 2nd and 3rd Vial, and I drew Ascendency and looted into Pithing Needle; the game ended soon after.

Out:
1x Dig through time
2x Pyroblast
2x Gitaxian Probe
1x Thought scour

In:
2x Pithing Needle
1x Plains
1x Sulfur Elemental
2x Wear // Tear

Goblin Prison: 0-2

He was able to get down a Blood Moon and a Chalice on 2; no outs. In game two he had a Chalice on 1, Chalice on 2, Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, Red Cap, and Rabble Master. I had hard cast a couple Fatestickers and was only taking two a turn from the Redcap. I had fetched for my island and managed to naturally draw my planes. I managed to put an ascendency in play and attempted to go off the following turn after he played a Mogg Fanatic. I casted a brain storm into the chalice, looted into a Wear // Tear for his chalice and Blood Moon, and Hydro blasted his Magus of the Moon, but then fizzled. I ended up attacking for 8 but I should have animated my conclave and got in for 10 to make his ancient tombs unusable. I topdecked a Fatesticher and he had too many blockers so I could only put him to two with my Fairie Conclave. This match up seemed terrible but I think I could have taken game 2 if not for some mistakes. No reason to take out the blood moon effects when you have your basics and hard casted fatestichers.

Out:
2x Pyroblast
1x Dig through time
2x Gitaxian Probe
2x Thought scour

In:

2x Hydroblast
2x Kor Firewalker
1x Plains
2x Wear // Tear

I think I probably should have cut the mountain, since his deck runs no wastelands.

Food Chain: 2-0

Both games were won through Young Pyromancer, removal, and counter spells. We both kept each other's combo off the table, but I was beating down with a growing army of 1/1s.

Out:
2x Gitaxian Probe

In:
2x Wear // Tear

Infect: 2-0

In game 1 he made the mistake of crop rotating away his trop instead of a pendlehaven so his Invigorates and Daze were uncastable while Young Pyromancer took over the game. Game 2 I played an early Young Pyromancer and counter or removed every threat he played.

Out:
2x Gitaxian Probe
2x Thought scour

In:
2x Wear // Tear
2x Pithing Needle

I brought in 4 cards to deal with Nexus. It may be over kill, but it was the best threat he had.

Top 8: Miricles: 2-1

Game 1 was very long and I managed to get him to 3 with 5 cards left in my library before he played an Entreat for 7 that I could not answer. Game 2 I managed to get in a lot of damage with an early young pyromancer, when he answered it I played a second which killed him. In game 3 I started the game with two wear // tear in hand. Once he played a counter balance I bated a FoW with a dig through time and was able to play the wear // tear into an Ascendency. He played another counter balance on his turn, which I wear // teared as well. I then began to combo one creature at a time over a few turns in order to force him to use all his spot removal until I had a fatesticher he could not answer.

Out:
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Gitaxian Probe
2x Thought scour

In:
2x Meddling Mage
2x Pithing Needle
2x Wear // Tear

Overall I am very happy with the deck. The only update I would make at the moment would be to swap the mountain and the plains. The sideboard could probably use some work, but that will come with more reps with the deck. I am not sure if I sideboarded correctly and would love some feed back.

Thanks for reading.

VsTheWorld

12-11-2014, 11:27 AM

Packofrats

12-11-2014, 11:45 AM

I'm playing this at an iq this weekend. I played it in modern yesterday but will go into the iq only good fishing and a little cockatrice. Any thoughts on side boarding? I'm playing Brad Nelson's list from yesterday's video. No counter top.

I'm thinking of a transformational board into delver/yp since it's the same shell.

HSCK

12-11-2014, 12:12 PM

My advice would be to not play Nelson's variant. A lot of the power of this deck comes from its ability to be a control deck, pushing it to be like Storm takes away that avenue.

rufus

12-11-2014, 12:29 PM

...

I'm thinking of a transformational board into delver/yp since it's the same shell.

That seems like 'danger of cool things' territory. It could certainly make sense as metagame plan if you're adding generically strong elements - say swapping out delvers for stifles - in specific match-ups, but transforming in the hope that your opponent will overcommit to answers really only makes sense if one of the game plans is good enough to force an opponent to commit heavily to an answer - say by mulliganing into specific cards.

nevilshute

12-12-2014, 03:28 AM

My advice would be to not play Nelson's variant. A lot of the power of this deck comes from its ability to be a control deck, pushing it to be like Storm takes away that avenue.

I agree a lot with this sentiment. Filling the deck up with objectively bad cards like Mental Note and Thought Scour seems like a bad idea. The strength of the deck would appear to be it's ability to play a strong control/aggro game plan while also being able to have a strong combo plan while only containing a minimum of bad cards outside of comboing off (the Fatestitchers - also, in part, the Faerie Conclaves).

If you focus on Jeskai Ascendancy as the only win con then I think you're left with one of the weaker combo decks of the format.

Darkenslight

12-12-2014, 04:47 AM

I agree a lot with this sentiment. Filling the deck up with objectively bad cards like Mental Note and Thought Scour seems like a bad idea. The strength of the deck would appear to be it's ability to play a strong control/aggro game plan while also being able to have a strong combo plan while only containing a minimum of bad cards outside of comboing off (the Fatestitchers - also, in part, the Faerie Conclaves).

If you focus on Jeskai Ascendancy as the only win con then I think you're left with one of the weaker combo decks of the format.

I can see the uses for the GY-filling cards, if you're also playing Boats or DTTs. I would consider playing more Protection spells, and more cantrips, perhaps even Visions of Beyond, because you're filling your graveyard so fast. I'd even consider Rebuff the Wicked or Divert as protection cards.

nevilshute

12-12-2014, 05:38 AM

I can see the uses for the GY-filling cards, if you're also playing Boats or DTTs. I would consider playing more Protection spells, and more cantrips, perhaps even Visions of Beyond, because you're filling your graveyard so fast. I'd even consider Rebuff the Wicked or Divert as protection cards.

There are two reasons why I don't think the "fill the yard faster" argument is a good one. First off, the deck is already insane at filling up the yard. Between probes, ponders, brainstorm, 9-10 fetches, bolts, plowshares etc. I find that I'm easily able to cruise/dig every 2½-3 turns in many games. Secondly, if we want to speed it up by adding Thought Scour and Mental Note, it comes at the cost of us now drawing... Thought Scours and Mental Notes, also off of our cruise/dig, effectively making them (cruise/dig) worse. I know you can also craft it so, that you mill away excess scours with scour, but I just don't think it's worth it.

adrieng

12-12-2014, 09:17 AM

Hi ;
I am new to the deck did anyone tried a miracle build ?
Something like that might be ok :
Preordain is here clearly better than probe, without YP.
The ability to end the game out of nothing is really strong.
I think two builds can be good either an hybrid with UR delver or with miracle.
One more win condition might be needed.

2 Faerie Conclave
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
2 Arid Mesa

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Force of Will

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus

3 Fatestitcher
4 Jeskai Ascendancy

nodahero

12-12-2014, 10:04 AM

I played the following list to a 2-2 record yesterday although, had I used basic common sense I would have been at least 3-1 if not, 4-0. This deck has alot more play to it than Sneak and Show and 12 Post... I need to sharpen my game back up to when I used to play Storm if I amgoing to run this back.

Combo A
4 Jeskai Ascendency
4 Fatestitchers

Combo B
4 Sensei's Diving Top
4 Counterbalance

Backup Kill Condition
4 Young Pyromancer

Cantrips
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Treasure Cruise

Removal/Protection
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Pyroblast

Mana
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarns
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
2 Farie Conclave
1 Island
1 Arid Mesa

Board
it was a total mess so I won't bother listing the specific counts
Flusterstorm
StP
Meddeling Mage
Hydroblast
Wear///Tear

A few observations...
1) I think we should trim the Fatesitchers to 3 and add an Intuition in that slot.
2) It is highly possible that we should cut either a 4th Counterbalance or a 4th Pyromancer. I kept getting these awkward lines where my hand would feel clogged with 2 drops because I had no reason to cast them into the current board state. Perhaps cut a Counterbalance and replace it with 1 Enlightened tutor?
3) I realize there is a serious lack of protection in the mainbaord and that was intentional. Game 1 I think we are best suited to play out like an "aggro deck," as in, we just don't care what our opponent is really doing unless they are about to kill us because no one can kill an Ascendncy game 1 really and as a result we have inevitability on our end it has felt like.

TraxDaMax

12-12-2014, 10:08 PM

How was cutting Force of Will?

nodahero

12-13-2014, 10:31 AM

My meta is not remotely saturated with combo so it was generally not worth it. Usually there is only one spot in the combo turn where I don't have spare mana, if ever.

The extra card has been very important plus it allows the counter/top engine to be more impressive because you wont reveal a fiver ever.

Darkenslight

12-13-2014, 03:38 PM

Something I was thinking about (courtesy of the SCG Coverage thread) was how insane the Bomberman combo is with Jeskai Ascendancy, almost guaranteeing a kill. However, you lose a lot of the redundancy of cantrips in exchange for an "I-win" button.

nodahero

12-14-2014, 02:21 AM

So jokingly I suggested a version of this deck to a friend today, however giving it more thought I wonder if it has some merit.

4 Mental Note
4 Thought Scour
4 Noxious Revival
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Ascendency
4 Fatesitcher
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
20 Land

The only real thing of note is the Note/Scour combo with a Noxious Revival or possibly Snapcaster Mage.

Thoughts?

screallix

12-14-2014, 02:28 PM

I guess I just #broketheformat:

4 Young Pyromancer
4 Fatestitcher
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
3 Ral Zarek
3 Stasis

3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Treasure Cruise

4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Lightning Bolts

2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Islands
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
2 Faerie Conclave

Plan A:
Fatestitcher/Faerie Conclave + Jeskai Ascendancy
Young Pyromancer + Jeskai Ascendancy

Plan B:
Stasis + Ral Zarek
Stasis + Fatestitcher
Stasis + Young Pyromancer + Jeskai Ascendancy (Untapping Elemental Tokens while opponent is locked)

Only issue is that I can't find space for Gitaxian Probe.

Vacrix

12-14-2014, 02:56 PM

The problem I see with the list above is that Ral Zarek doesn't interact that well with Jeskai Ascendancy. Stasis doesn't interact with Ascendancy. Pyromancer conflicts with Stasis. And also adding in the Stasis plan shrinks your cantrip count significantly. The Pyromancer/spot removal list isn't the right shell for stasis. If its effective at all, it would be in the UGrw lists with mana dorks.

Also, keep in mind that as much synergy as Ral Zarek and Stasis have together, they need to also function independent of each other. Ral Zarek costing 4 doesn't help. The turbo Stasis locks come out faster and you can push the pieces through soft counters a lot easier than a 4cc spell.

P-E

12-15-2014, 01:12 AM

interesting deck from Black at Seattle
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=77486

Daize

12-15-2014, 04:25 AM

The deck is pretty interesting.... You're just digging and digging and digging, interesting to see how it's getting fine-tuned.

Darkenslight

12-15-2014, 07:54 AM

The deck is pretty interesting.... You're just digging and digging and digging, interesting to see how it's getting fine-tuned.

I'm actuaslly surprised that the Slippery Bogle variant isn't being used (to wit: Slippery Bogle, Retraction Helix and a 0-cost artifact), though I can defintiely see the advantage of Fatestitchers in Legacy (having haste and all that). At that point, you can go infinite (although FoW does dampen that kill somewhat).

nevilshute

12-15-2014, 08:27 AM

How do people feel about running 1-2 copies of Jace somewhere in the 75 in the Rich Shay build (4x pyromancer, no counterbalance/top)?

Would improve our control matchups and add a win condition in the face of random annoying cards like Glacial Chasm.

rufus

12-15-2014, 08:48 AM

I'm actuaslly surprised that the Slippery Bogle variant isn't being used (to wit: Slippery Bogle, Retraction Helix and a 0-cost artifact), though I can defintiely see the advantage of Fatestitchers in Legacy (having haste and all that). At that point, you can go infinite (although FoW does dampen that kill somewhat).

I think that one of the challenges with Ascendancy is that there's a lot of design freedom: It wants to be in a deck that includes creatures with good tap abilities or token hordes and useful low (effective) casting cost spells. That, and the uncomfortable casting cost of Ascendancy itself make it much less clear how to make it work well in a combo deck.

Fatestitcher and Wind Zendikon are solid, but if you look at the early pages of this thread, the proposed game plan is using Birds of Paradise as a combination of ramp and combo pieces, and Postmortem Lunge can act as a creature and a spell. Gitaxian Probe is good, but there are other '0 CA' 'free' spells like Land Grant or Tidal Bore that have obvious utility outside of the combo. Meanwhile other posters talk about "objectively bad cards like Mental Note and Thought Scour", but we see that they have slots in winning lists.

Maybe, rather than what we're exploring so far, a better place for Jeskai Ascendancy is to use it as a finisher in a deck with some other engine like Paradise Mantle+Puresight Merrow.

rickster

12-15-2014, 09:52 AM

interesting deck from Black at Seattle
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=77486

Martell was streaming it last night, he went 4-0

http://www.twitch.tv/tommartell/v/3609350

The mental note and thoughtscour can mill fatesticher, fuel delve, and can clear brainstorms when you don't have a fetch. Martell was able to turn 2 cruise in at least one of his games.

janluis1

12-15-2014, 07:59 PM

Am i the only fool who thought about sneak and show trasformational sideboard!?

thecrav

12-15-2014, 08:02 PM

Am i the only fool who thought about sneak and show trasformational sideboard!?

It's certainly an interesting idea. What does your board look like?

I guess your plan is probably take out one combo put in another?

Vacrix

12-15-2014, 10:19 PM

A singleton Brainfreeze doesn't sound terrible. You can pull some tricks with it like Solidarity and respond to the copies with cantrips, thus utilizing Brainfreezes a little better, fill up your yard for Treasure Cruise, mill some chaff so you fizzle less, or use it as a kill spell if you draw it much later in the game.

Darkenslight

12-16-2014, 03:38 AM

nodahero

12-16-2014, 11:16 AM

You aren't generating that much mana without double Stitcher at which point, you should be able to kill your opponent anyway by simplying tapping every asset he has.

janluis1

12-16-2014, 11:40 AM

got stunning results in testing recently with sneak and show transformational sideboard im using sam main deck list.
a side note here:siding in 4 sneak attack 4 show and tell 4 grizzly and 2 emrakul means you cant use so much milling yourself cause of emrakul resshufle effect anti sinergy with cruise and dig. happened me just once in 10 matches but can happen.

iriisnes

12-17-2014, 02:45 PM

Here's what I've been working with.

Land (21)

1x Academy Ruins
2x Arid Mesa
1x Faerie Conclave
4x Flooded Strand
1x Island
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Plateau
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island

Instant (14)

4x Brainstorm
2x Enlightened Tutor
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
2x Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery (6)

4x Gitaxian Probe
2x Ponder

Enchantment (4)

4x Jeskai Ascendancy

Artifact (9)

1x Batterskull
1x Paradise Mantle
4x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sword of the Meek
2x Thopter Foundry

Creature (6)

4x Etherium Sculptor
2x Stoneforge Mystic

Instead of fatestitcher, we can use etherium sculptor to great effect. It requires a few more moving parts (Top + Paradise mantle), but gets more cantrips, tutor effects, and isn't as vulnerable to RIP. The secondary and tertiary wincons of SFM + Batterskull and Thopter/Sword seem good against a field full of UR delver.

Top + Top + Ascendancy + Sculptor (Infi loop for kill)
Top + Ascendancy + Sculptor (lets you flip top to ensure that you draw a non-creature spell to continue comboing)
Stoneforge Mystic + Batterskull (plan B)
Thopter Foundry + Sword of the meek (plan C)
Stoneforge Mystic (fetching Paradise Mantle) + Ascendancy (another way to kill)
Enlightened tutor means that you search for any missing piece of the ascendancy combo or for Thopter + Sword

The high density of cantrips (4 BS + 4 Probe + 2 Ponder + 4 Top) means that the build will goldfish a turn 3-4 kill about 60% of the time (I tested ~40 times). Otherwise you can beat down with Batterksull or thopters.

The mana is very consistent, only running red for ascendancy or potential SB cards. I included basic Mountain and ugly step-child dual land Plateau, and they seemed fine, but could be cut. 24 blue cards consistently enables FoW. The 1-of Academy ruins seems good for rebuying dead Etherium sculptors or artifacts sacrificed to Thopter foundry.

The numbers are fluid; for example the build could be modified to include Counterbalance as additional combo protection (i.e. -2 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Spell Pierce, +3 Counterbalance). Cut 1 ascendancy, 1 Etherium sculptor, and 1 Probe to move up to the full 4 SFM + Jitte (play a more "fair" SFM deck), or even 2x Jace + extra land. Cut 2 StP + academy ruins for 3 Fatestitcher to move more all-in on the ascendancy combo. Cut the thopter package for another combo win (brain freeze, RIP/Helm both seem fine). You get the idea.

I didn't include a specfic SB b/c there are so many different directions you can take. I like the idea of siding into another combo like Sneak/Show (-4 ascendancy, -4 Etherium scupltor, -1 Paradise mantle, -2 SfM, -1 Batterskull, -2 StP, -1 Tutor for +3 Sneak attack, +4 Show and Tell, +4 Emmy, +4 Griseldaddy) or siding into a RIP miracles build (-4 ascendancy, -4 Etherium scupltor, -1 Paradise mantle, -3 probe, +3 counterbalance, +3 Jace, +1 Entreat, +4 terminus, +1 land). For GY based decks, try removing the thopter/sword combo for 2x RIP and 1x Helm. Or just board in good cards like pyro/hydroblast, flusterstorm, Wear//Tear. Ethersworn canonist seems good for the "mirror" vs the fatestiticher builds; you can combo with Top + Top + Ascendancy + Sculptor or Stoneforge Mystic (fetching Paradise Mantle) + Ascendancy + Top + Top, but they can't.

Happy brewing and Merry Christmas!

why

12-18-2014, 05:34 AM

I like Sam's build a lot. I've tried a bunch of variants.

I don't like having other win conditions in the maindeck. Jeskai Ascendancy is enough. I want to be all interaction and four Ascendancies and four Fatestitchers and some Conclaves / Zendikons. Every time I tried other things I got flooded on win conditions. I had cards that were part of one variant and part of another in my hand.

I don't think you need anything specific to go off once you have Fatestitcher + Ascendancy. As long as your deck is full of Cantrips and Cruises it's hard to fizzle. I think Thought Scour and Mental Note are both great. It is super low cost and high upside to be playing them. There's some argument for Ponders instead. The reason to run Mental Note/Thought Scour is that you get the ability to go off "at instant speed". After seeing an enchantment removal spell in my opponents hand via Gitaxian Probe, I have returned a Fatestitcher or two, and played Ascendancy. I start by playing a cantrip. My opponent tries to kill Ascendancy. Before their spell resolves, my Fatestitcher(s) are big enough to kill my opponent.

Sensei's Divining Top is just so mana intensive. I had it in my deck because you can loop when you have two Tops but I cut them quickly since they're so bad to draw in every other situation. I'd rather have any other cantrip.

I think Enlighteneded Tutor is sort of sweet, but I can see why Sam wasn't playing with it. You want as much as possible in your deck to say "draw a card" on it. You'll start fizzling if you don't do that. I don't know that Enlightened Tutor can find you anything cheap and card neutral (ie a 1-2 mana spell that functionally said "draw two cards" in this deck), but it'd definitely be good if that card existed.

I have no idea why we're transforming. Yeah, people have hate but most of it can be dodged. I really want to use my actual sideboard space. Bringing in removal is great against aggressive decks and I like having Flusterstorms and Pyroblasts in my board. I like Wind Zendikon as a sideboard card for beating graveyard hate (including containment priest) and Pithing Needle. I like Noxious Revival a lot in postboard games- it helps protect from Surgical and gets back an Ascendancy you milled or that got destroyed.

Any combo you bring in will probably make your deck worse. The transformational sideboard I had the most success with was playing True-Name, Geist of Saint Traft, and equipment. If you want to transform you want to dodge interaction. Very little does that better than hexproof.

Fuzzy

12-18-2014, 07:40 AM

rufus

12-18-2014, 08:37 AM

Can anyone explain me why Sam is running Gut Shot instead of Lava Dart? It doubles as looti during mid combo, can be cast from the grave, it's free and also can kill opposing Deathrite Shamans.

And it has more style points too.

There are advantages to gut shot because it doesn't require a land sac, and it's not graveyard dependent. That said, I wouldn't be too surprised if it's a simple oversight.

nodahero

12-18-2014, 11:02 AM

A huge boon for Gut Shot is the phyrexian mana... you don't need to have access to a mana to start comboing; it makes comboing on turn 2 alot easier than a Lava Dart would.

You basically trade combo efficency for a bit more control.

nodahero

12-19-2014, 09:26 AM

I piolted the following list to a 3-1 record last night playing against UR, mono-red, Storm and Miracles in that order. My loss came to UR (primarily as a result of drawing WAY to many lands.

Combo A
4 Jeskai Ascendency
3 Fatestitchers

Combo B
4 Sensei's Diving Top
4 Counterbalance

Backup Kill Condition
4 Young Pyromancer

Cantrips
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Treasure Cruise

Removal/Protection
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Pyroblast

Test Slot
1 Intuition

Mana
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarns
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
2 Farie Conclave
1 Island

First realization, You can't treat Intuition as Stitcher number 4 no matter how obvious it seems; it simply never worked out that way.

Second, 3 mana spells are not worth it in this deck outside of Ascendency between only running 19 lands and trying to cast multiple spells in the kill turn it simply isn't a boon in the least.

Third, the counter/top list shell is very handy in this deck because of the top/top/stitcher/ascendency line of play and adding CBalance doesn't hurt the deck that bad and makes protecting your stitchers from blast/StP fairly easy.

Fourth, it is highly possible that when running the counter/top shell you don't need access to 4 Pyromancers.

A line I have been contemplating testing is cutting the Ponders and Pyromancers for a mix of Mental Note/Though Scour and Noxious Revival. This line speeds up Treasure Cruise and also allows us to fetch back whatever we mill if we have a Noxious in hand and can play cute with Counterbalance also.

Tachikoma

12-21-2014, 05:51 PM

Hi, there,

I just joined the hype after being catched by the modern version at the World Championships.
Interesting to see the deck takes 2 pretty different directions in Legacy with the same combo : all-in combo with Sam Black's version on one side, combo-control with Drew Levin's one on the other.

Here is the list I'm testing, more on the Levin's side packing both CB+Top and YP.

I'll warn players with no experience with those 2 like I am, you WILL miss tons of triggers, poorly sequence things, loose track of what's on top of your deck for several games before getting up to speed (and adding Jeskai Ascendancy in the mix makes it even harder)
DO NOT only test with anything that automates triggers (I did that with Forge for those who know this app and was pretty confident with it ... until I get to play it for real :)
But no pain, no gain, and after 2 tournaments I'm starting to like it :)

I highlighted what made a difference to me so far.

//Combo
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
3 Fatestitcher
2 Wind Zendikon

//Alternative gameplans
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance

//Control
4 Force of Will
1 Pyroblast
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Swords to Plowshares

//Cantrip/Draw
4 Brainstorm
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Treasure Cruise
1 Dig Through Time
1 Thought Scour

//Manabase
3 Lotus Petal
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Mountain

In the sideboard I go almost full regular Jeskai Stoneblade
//Full stoneblade package
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
//Other random stuff
1 Flusterstorm
1 Meddling Mage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Wear // Tear

As I said only a 2 tournaments record so far (15-20 players)

The 1st one I had the Top but no CB and Faery conclave instead of Zendikon
2-1 vs Goblins
0-2 vs 4 color cascade
1-1 vs Affinity
1-1 vs a Legacy port of Splinter-Twin

The second one with the list above
1-1 vs Miracles
2-0 vs Infect
2-0 vs Dredge
0-2 vs MUD

About highlighted cards:
- Top: I can confirm Top works great to keep your combo alive (or infinite when you have 2), also sometimes you have the mana but few cards in hand and use it to ensure you know exactly when to loot or skip looting.
- CB: obvious with Top as it makes the "Top is too slow" issue a lot less relevant (And it was sometimes a real issue in my games before I add CB)
- Dig through time: Agree with Rich, "5 is the correct number", hesitated between 3 TC / 2 Dig and 4 TC / 1 Dig, you usually want Dig before combo, TC when you go off. Went 4/1 because CB/top gives you more time to find the pieces.
- Wind Zendikon: seems like a strict upgrade to Conclave, can be used for combo the turn it comes into play, can produce different colors when enchanting duals, resists to -1/-1, can even protect your land from wasteland.
- Lotus Petal: was not only useful to combo earlier but also to do stupid plays like T1 Stoneforge into Batterskull T2, T1 CB even T1 TNN :)
- Basic lands: wastelands hurts pretty hard, maybe a downside of having petals, so less actual lands, not sure all 3 are needed (maybe cut the mountain ?)
- TNN: Easy to fit in the stoneblade package (combo -8, stoneblade +8), can even be sided in standalone in certain matchups, excellent each time I saw it whatever the situation was (control game stalled, broken combo pieces, unchecked opponent biggie to block ...). You might argue it's at the expense of 2 sideboard cards, but did not feel that way, probably thanks to CB/Top.

General notes:
- Half of my combo wins were JA without Fatestitcher/Zendikon, just pump a bunch of YP token, usually wasn't enough to kill in the turn, but enough to finish with the newly spawned tokens the next turn. So I'm not getting away from the full 4 YP for now, and it makes Anger appealing although it might be unnecessary.
- I also like how YP+Ascendancy can get you out of tough situations like T1 chalice x1 or against an opposing CB.

Thanks for reading :)

Laurent