Gold Digger [UWr Delve Control]

[kiblast]

This is a no-brainer for me: TC is miles ahead of FoF. Here is why:

* BS, Ponder & DTT (+ Jace) offer more than enough digging to find the cards you need, mitigating FoF's filter effect.
* Ponder & DTT find BS --> BS (+ Jace) shuffle away the suboptimal cards you draw with TC, making the raw C/A shine.
* Most of the time you'll be able to cast it for <4 // sidenote: I don't recommend going beyond 6 delve spells ever and in Fact run merely 5 atm.
* More often than not I find myself casting DTT on my turn, as I'm pressured to find answers asap, or seize the time window while my opponent is tapped out - so the Instant VS. Sorcery speed doesn't have a tremendous weight imo.


Umh. I see your points. I was just noticing it sitting in my hand too often during testing, due to various DDT cast before.

Slice and dice was in the first build I was trying at the beginning, together with Humility in place of Moat.

[klaus]

Umh. I see your points. I was just noticing it sitting in my hand too often during testing, due to various DDT cast before.

Slice and dice was in the first build I was trying at the beginning, together with Humility in place of Moat.

I see that happening too, which is why I'm at a singleton TC atm.

Has anyone other than Kaslan tested Young Pyromancer btw?

I was playing an MWS mate recently and it seemed quite potent, being both: a wall in the early-game and a finisher in the late-game. Obviously he'd be battling over his slots VS. SFM. The upsides and downsides should be clear - it ultimately comes down to the meta development and insights through dedicated testing imo.

Here's a sample list off the top of my head:

4 BS
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
2 Jace
4 DTT
1 TC

2 YP
2 SFM
1 BSkull

4 STP
3 Bolt
1 CJ

4 FoW
2 Flusterstrom
2 Pyroblast
2 CS

10 fetch
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain

SB:
2 REB
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Pyroclasm
3 Clique
2 Wear/Tear
2 Hydroblast
2 Containment Priest
1 Grafidgger's Cage

[cuthbertthecat]

Umh. I see your points. I was just noticing it sitting in my hand too often during testing, due to various DDT cast before.

Slice and dice was in the first build I was trying at the beginning, together with Humility in place of Moat.

Oh man, I hadn't even considered playing Humility with Slice and Dice. Mind blown, gonna have to test it.

[kiblast]

Oh man, I hadn't even considered playing Humility with Slice and Dice. Mind blown, gonna have to test it.

The thing is that they still can blow up your Moat with certain creatures (Qasali pridemage and the new improved Viridian Shaman come to mind). Also, Slice and Dice is a one sided WoG effect vs X/1 weenie decks, Pyromancer, etc. So both Humility and Slice are not dead on their own. Humility also stops Show and Tell bombs (Griselbrand, Emrakul) whereas Moat doesn't.
Worth testing imho.

Edit: Humility is incredibly powerful, but at the same time demands changes in your choice of win conditions. Running Stoneforge or Baneslayer doesn't seem the best choice together with Humility. Maybe Mishra's factory?

[anwei]

Has anyone other than Kaslan tested Young Pyromancer btw?

I was playing an MWS mate recently and it seemed quite potent, being both: a wall in the early-game and a finisher in the late-game. Obviously he'd be battling over his slots VS. SFM. The upsides and downsides should be clear - it ultimately comes down to the meta development and insights through dedicated testing imo.


I played a small event with 2 YP, 2 SFM, BS, and 3 JTMS, but the meta was so far from competitive that I didn't draw many conclusions (and won't return).
I loved YP. The strengths and weaknesses of YP and SFM line up very well, and they both do a great job on different board states, with different resiliencies. As you note, it can play several different roles very well. I went to 3 YP, 2 SFM, Batterskull, and 2 JTMS as my 8 threats after the game. It did pull the deck in several directions. I wanted to be running Probe and/or more cantrips, and getting more aggressive with them.

Also, with that amount of threat density (mild but far more than having 2-4 wincons), all of which are also reasonable defensively, I felt like DTT lost some stock to Treasure Cruise. The deck is already playing so many cantrips so that seeing lots of cards is easy enough to do, and there are more slots that can fill any individual role. Pyromancer is another incentive to make more land drops at later stages in the game, and taking land off DTT always feels worse than finding one on TC. And, being able to begin flooding the board lets the card advantage of TC really shine. I would consider a 3/2 split in either direction, would consider trading my EE's for Bolts (I ran EE despite last minute change to YP), and might try to get 2-3 Probe.

[cuthbertthecat]

The thing is that they still can blow up your Moat with certain creatures (Qasali pridemage and the new improved Viridian Shaman come to mind). Also, Slice and Dice is a one sided WoG effect vs X/1 weenie decks, Pyromancer, etc. So both Humility and Slice are not dead on their own. Humility also stops Show and Tell bombs (Griselbrand, Emrakul) whereas Moat doesn't.
Worth testing imho.

Edit: Humility is incredibly powerful, but at the same time demands changes in your choice of win conditions. Running Stoneforge or Baneslayer doesn't seem the best choice together with Humility. Maybe Mishra's factory?

You do have to change the wincon with humility, but I think you can just play batterskull because of how nicely it plays under humility.

[Holly]

Just returning from our (not quite) montly Legacy tournament - unfortunately we were only 39 people =/.
Anyway after pretty much not having played Legacy at all for a month (besides 10 test games with my old list) I took it from there, doing some changes and played a list most of you will dislike.

For reference, here's the list:
2 Island, 1 Plains, 1 Mountain, 2 Tundra, 3 Volcanic Island, 4 Scalding Tarn, 4 Flooded Strand, 2 Arid Mesa
4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 3 Preordain, 4 Dig Through Time, 3 Treasure Cruise, 1 Fact or Fiction (the 1 FoF was meant to be Jace, but Sawatrix dared me to play FoF and Jace was the weakest link)
4 Force of Will, 1 Misdirection, 3 Counterspell, 3 Pyroblast
4 Swords to Plowshare, 1 Engineered Explosives, 1 Pyroclasm
2 Snapcaster Mage, 4 Young Pyromancer

SB: 2 Containment Priest, 2 Vendillion Clique, 1 Flusterstorm, 2 REB, 2 Hyrodblast, 2 Wear/Tear, 1 Null Rod, 1 Jace tMS, 1 Pyroclasm, 1 Slice and Dice

The EE was awful, the Pyroclasm awesome, the Slice and Dice.. well there were many times I wanted to draw it, but every time I DID draw it I had a Pyromancer out and was winning anyway..
I missed the 4th TC the most though the FoF has been actually quite nice (but thill worse than a TC).
Pyromancer_is_nuts.

To the matches:
M1 vs Miracles
I lose the die roll.
G1 I get an early Pyromancer protected by 3 Counterspells, 1 FoW and some blasts for the win.
G2 We play draw, go for a while during cantriping (me) and toping (him). I resolve an DTT getting FoF and Jace. Next end of his turns I go for the FoF which gets Vensered, he taps out for this so I resolve Jace easily, followed by a Young Pyromancer next turn. He gets down his own Jace and I go Ponder -> TC -> SCM -> Pyroblast his Venser, attack Jace and he scoops.
1-0 (2-0)

M2 vs RU Delverburn (dunno if he played Swiftspear, he played Goblin Guide, CL, Forked Bolt but otherwise looked like the standard UR Delver list)
I lose the die roll, again.
G1 I get hit by a flipped Delver twice before Pyroclasm it with a just played Pyromancer of his and from there I'm in full control.
G2 Goblin guide hits me some times before I kill it but between it, the other threats I have to counter and a resolved Price of Progress (6 damage) I go 4 but presenting a 2 turn clock. The turn before I kill him he plays TC with 1 card left in hand, I Force it and go to three.. his last card was a land.
2-0 (4-0)

M3 vs Miracles
I lose the die roll, again again.
G1 I mull to 6 (4 lands, 2 Ponders), he plays a land and says go, I land -> Ponder seeing 3 lands -> shuffle.
He plays a second land and says go. I ponder again (2 lands, 1 stp) and shuffle again, drawing... my second stp!
His 3rd turn he plays land, Counterbalance which resolves since I have literally nothing but drawing the FoW one turn to late.. I Ponder a third time seeing 3 lands and shuffle, next turn he goes for Top, I try to Force it which gets countered and I scoop. Fast one.
G2 Again I mull to 6 but its not a big deal. Its a big on and off between the two mighty mages and we sling cantrips and counters (and he tops), ultimatly the game went down to him fetching a plains instead of a Tundra, thus allowing me to counter his Counterbalance easily (he had Counterspell in hand) and got beaten down by Clique & SCM.
G3 Again we battle, a lot. Gamestates pretty much ends in me being low on life because of a t2 SCM (which is dead by now), him having Top & trillion lands, no cards in hand and me having no pressure but a SCM in hand with no graveyard but a Counterspell + the TC I just had casted and whiffed hard on. For no good reason I'm worried of going to time (we weren't close to that actually) thus casting SCM -> TC which made me remove the Counterspell.. drawing cantrips and a Clique.. he plays draw, land go again and on his next turn I actually play the Clique..
These both moves (playing SCM & removing CS, playing Clique) + not having a Counterspell makes me lose hard to an Entreat. Bummer. Played bad, got the result.
2-1 (5-2)

M4 vs Infect
I lost the die roll, again again again.
G1 we both mull to 6 (my hand was fine but not against Infect which I know I'd be facing). He doesn't have an Infecter in his starting grip and doesn't draw one for quite a while allowing me to cantrip freelingly. He attacks me with a Noble Hierach for 2 each turn for a while till I have enough lands, play a Pyromancer and let it battle with 3 elemental tokens. Some time later I'm still at 0 posion counters and hes at 0 live.
G2 Well.. He starts with Nexus go, I cantrip. He has an Hierarch and says go. On my second 2 my hand consists of:
Pyyroclasm, Force, Force, Clique, 3 lands. I Pyroclasm hoping he dazes so I can freely cast Clique blocking his nexus next turn. He doesn't daze. On his turn he attacks, Invigorate (ok), Berserk (FoW, pitch FoW), Invigorate, uhm crap.. (I'm on 9 posion counters now). Next turn he attacks with Nexus, I play Clique he makes it Immense in response, showing me his last card beeing TC. I chumpblock and he plays another Nexus...
I draw Brainstorm and hope for the best saying go. He attacks with both Nexuses - I Brainstorm into 2 StP removing both. He gets another Nexus.
I ponder into Wear/Tear killing the Nexus next turn. 2-3 turns later he gets an Agent online for which I ponder into a SCM into StP (few) and taking control from here easily.
What a game, he had pretty much the nuts and I topdecked the nuts.
3-1 (7-2)

M5 vs UR Delver
I lose the die roll, again again again again.
G1 he starts with double Swiftspear which I pyroclasm t3 getting killed by tripple bolt on this 4th turn.
G2 He mulls to 6 and is never really in the game. I let him attack me with some Swiftspear but I'm not really in danger at any time.
G3 He has quite a fast start (though not as fast as game 1) while I had a cantrip heavy hand, I'm able to whipe his board at 8 life but in the process couldn't counter his first TC nor his second while I'm lacking ANY delve spells resulting in him overpowering me.
3-2 (8-4)

M6 vs UR Delver
I lose the die roll, again again again again again.
G1 During this game he draws 2 Swiftspears, 3 Delver and all 4 Pyromancers..thankfully I'm able to StP each Pyromancer immediatly and can handle the rest of his creatures between counters, Pyroblast and a Pyroclasm. He gets me down to 9 before I have full control killing him in pretty much 2 turns via Pyromancer.
G2 He has a fast start and I flood out horribly thus beeing unable to stabilize in any meaningful way.
G3 What a battle.. at the end of the game I had 1 Pyromancer in play, 0 in my library which had 8 cards in it left..
It starts with me beeing on the backfood since I'm flooding again, thankfully I have just enough removal/counters to handle his threats (and again thankfully he starts playing them t3 for the lack of them before). Ultimatlly he starts to flood and I start chaining delve spells drawing all my lands but slowly taking control. Though I am low on life and he wipes my board with an Elecktricky.. twice ! I manage to stick my last Pyromancer, protected by Counterspell & SCM -> Counterspell for the win.
4-2 (10-5)

Well thanks to my bad playing in match 5 I ended with 4-2 on the 8th place, still list was untested but fun though I wont play the exact same list again.

[kiblast]

As far as I know, these are the possible win condition setups:

-Moat and Baneslayer angel
-Humility and Batterskull/ manlands
-Stoneforge Batterskull.
-young pyromancer
-more planeswalkers route (pw control, with ajani or/and elspeth)

what are your preferences? Did any of you test more than one configuration? What were your impressions?
Please share your opinions!

edit: is punishing fire a viable option, both as a control tool and alternative wincon?

[alphastryk]

I played the same Moat / Baneslayer list I've been on to 6-3 at the Atlanta SCG Open, but with some sideboard changes:

Sideboard:
2 Blood Moon
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Kor Firewalker
1 Baneslayer Angel
2 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wear // Tear

I wanted the extra moon to help vs Jund, Deathblade, and Lands. I went back to Firewalker over Ram - even though it's harder to cast it does more when it resolves. I also added a 3rd Baneslayer because she's been overperforming. It might be right to main that over the 3rd Jace even, given how many REB effects there are right now. The old-style grave hate over Priest was because I didn't have access to Priests for this tournament - fortunately it never came up.

This deck still feels really close to being good, just not quite there. I definitely didn't play my best either, as I didn't get enough sleep the night before.

[martyrX]

@alpha -

do you find two plains gives you trouble sometimes? I have been running 1 plains, 4 islands and trying to back off the white a little bit. I still run moat+baneslayer, 4 stp and a single verdict. The reason i have been running this way is I find that this deck can use FOW quite aggressively and i want to be sure i have blue cards, as well as I want to be sure i can count on having 4 u up at any one time for the wonderful play of dig+counterpell (or dig+clique or cs+clique, etc.) Are you able to make such plays with 4 blue consistently? The reason I ask about the 2nd plains is because last tournament i ran into a problem vs blood moon (in burn) where i had baneslayer in hand but could not fetch for the plains i needed...so i had to waste a beb on blood moon which ultimately lost me the game.

Also, I'd like to endorse Venser. I run a karakas instead of academy ruins because i run a single venser in place of council's judgement (to avoid too much white). I prefer venser for many reasons: he is blue, he avoids spell pierce, he remands, he can take care of almost anything judgement can and more (except true name, although venser can remand him), he is an instant, he can save your own cards, he's great vs equipment, and karakas+venser can be devestating. I've even bounced venser with karakas to pitch to FOW here and there to counter that key spell. Not many opponents see that one coming with only 1 card in hand. Sure, it's not the most efficient play, but when you need it it works. One bad thing is moat+venser, but even in that situation he usually does his job anyways, attacking was never his forte.

[alphastryk]

@alpha -

do you find two plains gives you trouble sometimes? I have been running 1 plains, 4 islands and trying to back off the white a little bit. I still run moat+baneslayer, 4 stp and a single verdict. The reason i have been running this way is I find that this deck can use FOW quite aggressively and i want to be sure i have blue cards, as well as I want to be sure i can count on having 4 u up at any one time for the wonderful play of dig+counterpell (or dig+clique or cs+clique, etc.) Are you able to make such plays with 4 blue consistently? The reason I ask about the 2nd plains is because last tournament i ran into a problem vs blood moon (in burn) where i had baneslayer in hand but could not fetch for the plains i needed...so i had to waste a beb on blood moon which ultimately lost me the game.

Also, I'd like to endorse Venser. I run a karakas instead of academy ruins because i run a single venser in place of council's judgement (to avoid too much white). I prefer venser for many reasons: he is blue, he avoids spell pierce, he remands, he can take care of almost anything judgement can and more (except true name, although venser can remand him), he is an instant, he can save your own cards, he's great vs equipment, and karakas+venser can be devestating. I've even bounced venser with karakas to pitch to FOW here and there to counter that key spell. Not many opponents see that one coming with only 1 card in hand. Sure, it's not the most efficient play, but when you need it it works. One bad thing is moat+venser, but even in that situation he usually does his job anyways, attacking was never his forte.

The second plains is the worst land and gets boarded out against non-wasteland decks fairly often. You absolutely need it against anyone trying to disrupt your mana though. I would never want another basic island though - I'd play a 4th Tundra before that. The UUUU scenario doesn't tend to come up against anyone that can pressure your mana, so you can just get duals - I don't board in Clique very often, only against Miracles, some Stoneblade variants, and Combo. There's almost always a correct play anyways - just sit on the Dig / Clique if you can't protect it. (or throw it out as bait to resolve something on your turn).

I'm not playing a Council's Judgment or a Venser, just 2x EE, Verdict, 2 Pyroclasm, 4 Stp, Moat. Ruins + EE is incredible and I would never cut it from this deck. Venser seems really suspect when I'm considering trimming Jaces - that's how many REBs there are these days. It is worth noting that I always hated Venser in Miracles too though.

Reading some of the other discussion, I'd love to try a FoF, but the format right now is pretty fast and I don't want to get caught with a 4 mana spell that gets pierced and blasted.

[serendib]

has anyone considered the following cards as one or two copies ?

- Glen Elendra Archmage (she is a boss vs control decks)

- Cunning Wish: gives access to what we cannot give an unswer maindeck such as recursions (surgical extraction)

[Philipp2293]

edit: is punishing fire a viable option, both as a control tool and alternative wincon?

Yes, it's a very viable control tool, I've been playing Punishing Fire in blue control shells since forever and it's working fine most of the time. 2 things you have to keep in mind: You need to drastically increase your land count to fit the Groves, since they are bad basic mountains and the deck becomes more mana hungry.
The 2nd issue is that actually siding in gravehate might become an option for your oponent, since you now run 2 gravebased engines.

If it's working as a wincon? I'm currently testing this exact question on MODO. Atm I'm running something that feels like the UW Elixir of Immortality Std deck from last season, which basically won by looping Sphinx' Revelation after Elixir activations (not sure how interested you are in other formats). I've currently cut my last Jace from the deck (even though it felt nice to replay a Jace which has been killed 3 times). So my only "wincon" that are left are Punishing Fires and the oponent decking himsself. It works very nicely to chain Fact or Fictions and DTTs together, also the Digs have the nice effect of clearing your GY of stuff you don't wanna draw anymore, so after the first Elixir activation your deck is stacked with gas.

On MODO, playing this deck is actually a bit troublesome from a technical POV, since your oponent likely won't conceede because chances are real that you might time out (never happened to me, but I'm very used to handling Punishing Fire mechanics on MODO). Also, I understand this is not everybodys kind of deck, but by running only "1" dedicated wincon (which many people who don't know how the deck operates likey will ignore) you can actually stuff your deck with counters, cantrips and removal. But this is going a bit far, if you want to discuss this please send me a PM.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

What are your thoughts on 3 Misthollow Griffin + 1 Manipulate Fate for the finisher slot? Did not come up with this myself, saw it on stream, but so far is does not seem to bad, especially in a list with 2 Misdirection i guess.

[jedi_gof]

I have been toying with the misthollow wincons my self, my problem though is pretty much that it takes up too many slots really. I have not given up on it yet, and will keep attempting to make them work, but am getting convinced it is too cute and space consuming.

[Higgs]

Lol, Misthollow Griffin is awesome. A player in my area was bashing face with it in Vintage! The problem is you can basically kill it and it stays dead. Plus 3 power isn't good enough to be a main threat.

[Philipp2293]

I'm not sure what you mean with "it stays dead". If it get's countered or killed with non RFG removal, you just have more DTT/TC fodder with a huge upside. If it eats a STP, well, also not a problem. That said, I tried a Griffin configuration some weeks ago, with plenty of Izzet Charms as well, but I didn't like it a lot. Maybe someone has a decklist from the streamed build?

EDIT: Mr. Kiblast, please clear your inbox so that I can reply ;)

[Holly]

Its been some time but I finally had the opportunity to play again for a handful of games.
Deceided to run some more experimental slots (Slice n Dice instead of the second Pyroclasm maindeck), cutting down the 7th delve-spell to make room for the 2nd Fof, cramming in 2 Spell Snares (which were surprisingly good).

Played 2 pre-board games against elves, first one a turn 3 Slice n Dice brought me back into game and gave me control. Second game I was on the backfoot pretty much all the time but managed to stabilize at 1, thanks to a DTT finding me my 3rd and last stp to get rif of his DRS.
2-0, though here I really felt the cutting of the 4th Pyromancer & the 4th StP, but I guess postboard it gets much better.. besides Choke & Discard he doesn't have a whole lot to bring it while I get more mass removal & Priests cutting down dead cards.

Played against Miracle going 4-0 (2 preboard, 2 postboard)
1 Game I "cheesed" him out via t2/t4 pyromancer, I would've lost if he had found a Terminus but I was stuck on 2 lands without cantrips and a hand full of StP's so I had to go for it.. All 3 other games I pretty much felt in charge all the time, always having at least 1 counter more in hand than he does and my card draw is superior.

Also 2 more games (preboard) against BUG-Control
The second game doesn't really count.. he's stuck on 1 land for 3 turns which puts him way to far behind.
The first game I really felt my lack of Pyromancer's and he has been able to kill 2 of them, as he killed all my 3 Snapcasters.. so the last Pyromancer had to do it and got there, Decay is a bitch if you're looking at a hand of 6 counters..


Pyromancer has been as awesome as before, though I really want to test the other winconditions, too.
SFM, Baneslayer, Elspeth are all on the list..as is some wackier stuff like Keranos..

[thefreakaccident]

I see you guys all running lightning bolt over forked bolt. Is that even correct? With decks like pyromancer/delver/elves, forked will pretty much always have more value. At the very least it kills squires, and I don't know of that many relevant critters with a backside of 3 specifically.

I would run True-name nemesis before I ran pyromancer in this deck for sure. It fills the requirements. It's a wall, it's a lategame finisher. And last but not least, it doesn't get hosed by forked bolt. It'll also play around your own engineered explosives for the most part.

[klaus]

I see you guys all running lightning bolt over forked bolt. Is that even correct? With decks like pyromancer/delver/elves, forked will pretty much always have more value. At the very least it kills squires, and I don't know of that many relevant critters with a backside of 3 specifically.

I would run True-name nemesis before I ran pyromancer in this deck for sure. It fills the requirements. It's a wall, it's a lategame finisher. And last but not least, it doesn't get hosed by forked bolt. It'll also play around your own engineered explosives for the most part.

Hey Freak,
fair points. Here's my two Pence:
Forked Bolt VS Lightning Bolt: obviously I do see the benefits of Forked Bolt, however sorcery speed alone makes it an auto-exclude imo. You are correct about the fact that there are few critters with a x/3 butt, but being able to kill a Jace via Bolt actually saved my butt (pun intended) on several occasions.
I'm still not super happy with Bolt, as it just doesn't really fit this decks philosophy.
That being said, we should still evaluate Sudden Shock at one point. If the meta continues being infested by YP, it's certainly worth a shot. That SCG top8 UR Landstill list definitely proved its value.

TNN - I've tested and basically discarded him for good. While he does exactly what you mention there's one thing he lacks: being able to close the game quickly if need be and YP does exactly that, while also being a better wall most of the time. Yes, he's vulnerable and he definitely doesn't yet feel like the perfect finisher for this deck, but he accomplishes things efficiently. Let's face it: there will never be an EtA-style spell for this archetype and that's the one thing I miss most about Miracles. CB + Top is sweet, but GoldDigger counters most things like a pro anyway.

_
@all: what are your recent findings? Curious about your input.

[HSCK]

Has anyone been seeing some of the MODO decks? Crucible, 2-3 PWs, and Top?

[klaus]

Has anyone been seeing some of the MODO decks? Crucible, 2-3 PWs, and Top?
Why Crucible?
Makes no sense, at first glance at least...

[HSCK]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-daily-2014-12-27

Adopting Wasteland Crucible plan it seems.

[Philipp2293]

This looks like generic UW Control, since I count 0 Delve spells. No that I want to trash it, just not sure it belongs in here.

EDIT says: Thx @ HSCK - Now this looks quite interesting - 2 Slice and Dice, wow.

[HSCK]

TKC55's deck has 3 DTT, the UW control deck is similar but doesn't have DTT.

[klaus]

@list:
At that point I'd cut Crucible for Top #3 and swap Banelsayers for EtAs and then be inclined to run CB MD alongside Terminus :tongue:

[Flojo82]

I think Monastery Mentor is a Perfect Card for this Deck.

[DuKeLiO]

Has anybody tried the Cuneo from GP NJ version? I saw it on videos and liked it. It seems like Elspeth is very good like finisher, it is very resilient. Also liked the snapcaster + Concil's Judgement aproach as removal (also loved the F/I in the original list).
I will try it this weekend, or at least include some of this ideas to test it.

[AnziD]

Thoughts on Monastery Mentor as a Pyromancer replacement? Also though not as powerful as Brainstorm, Ponder, or Preordain, has anyone tested Thought scour in this deck?

[AnziD]

For what it's worth, made an extremely different brew with this deck and just 4-0'd a daily.

http://i.imgur.com/cC7pXL9.jpg

R1: Some guy accidently submitted a standard deck. 2-0 bye
R2: All-in Reanimator. 2-0
R3: Reanimator. 2-0
R4: RUG Delver ft. Goyf, Swiftspear, YP, and Delver. 2-0.

Deck is pretty sweet. The sideboard is super trash right now, but I definitely do enjoy the 3rd top and 4th CB. Not sure if Entreat/Jace are good enough - the idea here is to have better win condition for the Stoneblade matchups. Since this deck doesn't handle True-Name well at all, I figured why not just go over it. As far as the mainboard goes, I'd probably cut the Preordain and Probe for Thought Scours, though surprisingly I have yet to run into graveyard issues. The reason for this is that I rarely cast DTT for just 2 mana. This is good because it relaxes the pressure on the GY and allows me to keep extra cards in for Snapfodder. Manabase probably needs work too, but I'm not really good with those kinds of things.

Other thoughts... Forked bolt was spectacular, especially in tandem with Snapcaster Mage. In my last match I was facing down a Pyromancer, a couple tokens, and a Grim Lavamancer. Forked Bolt + Snapcaster allowed me to take care of all 5 permanents. Lightning bolt would not have done the same. Thanks to the earlier comment for the Forked bolt vs Lightning bolt analysis - it makes total sense for this control styled deck to play the card that maximizes options, which I think right now is Forked bolt. Young Peezy was also a boss, but there was an awkward moment where I had a hand full of permission and my opponent wasn't doing anything so I could only clock him for 2 points a turn.

To anyone who can build decks well, I would be delighted to see what kinds of improvements you can make! Tomorrow I'll most likely enter a daily after upgrading the cantrips.

[AnziD]

Went 3-1 in today's 7:30 EST daily with a couple changes.

Main:
-1 Probe, -1 Preordain, -1 TC
+2 Thought Scour, +1 Forked Bolt
Side:
-1 ETA, -1 JTMS
+1 Young Pyromancer, +1 Supreme Verdict

R1: Lost to mono-red stompy (Moggcatcher, etc) 1-2. COTV is a bitch
R2: Beat UR Delver 2-1
R3: Beat Miracles 2-0
R4: Beat Jund 2-0

Thought Scour isn't necessary to sustain Delve and Snapcaster. Forked Bolt is insane against the Delver matchups, but twice today my opponent was at 3 and I had a Forked Bolt and not Lightning Bolt. Will test a 2/1 split moving forward. ETA and JTMS seem clunky, not sure if I want those. Put the Verdict in so I wasn't dead cold to a resolved TNN.

EDIT:

Went 4-0 in today's 11:00pm EST daily with a minor change to the sideboard

Side:
-1 Young Pyromancer
+1 Wear // Tear

This was mostly in part of that loss I had against COTV. Also Young Pyromancer seems kinda fragile. Wondering if there's a better wincon (1-of Entreat?). Anyways:

R1: 2-0 vs. UWr Stoneblade
R2: 2-1 vs. Show and Tell
R3: 2-1 vs. Miracles
R4: 2-0 vs. Dead Guy Ale

[Jizz]

Let's play this so that they ban Dig next time.

[Svknoe]

The banning of Treasure Cruise seems good for this deck, though our 1-2 copies will have to be replaced. Is Fact or Fiction at all playable as a 1-of to replace cruise?
I'm glad that UR Delver is going to be less of a problem.

[Flojo82]

Play this List at our local Tournament (38 Players):

1 Council's Judgement
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
4 Preordain
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Spell Pierce
1 Treasure Cruise (now other Slot)
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Fire//Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Sideboard:

2 Containment Priest
2 Kor Firewalker
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyroclasm
1 Sudden Demise
1 Wear//Tear
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus

This Deck is insane at the Moment.

RD1: Patriot 2:0
RD2: Team America 2:1, in 3rd Game i cast 5 Digs
RD3: Loam Pox 1:1:1 Jace Ultimate at Turn 4 Extratime he have 1 Card in Hand
RD4: Temur Delver 2:0
RD5: Maverick 2:0
RD6: Miracles I.D. A Friend of Mine (He wins Tournament and Im 3) we Play for fun i Win 2:0

Only Change the TC.

Lets make this Deck to DTB

[Memories of the Time]

Sorry if my list is too far from the thread (don't think so, anyway). I'm still thinking that Mentor is a great card in a control shell rather then aggro one, and i want to build a "light" control deck like this:

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Counterbalance
2 Sudden Demise/Supreme Verdict/Terminus?
1 Dack Fayden/other?

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Monastery Mentor

3 Dig Through Time
1 Flusterstorm/Dispell/Pyroblast/metaslot

4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Karakas
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Plains
1 Arid Mesa


SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Hydroblast
SB: 1 Wear // Tear
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Pyroclasm

[Philipp2293]

Hi all,

I played Gold Digger with Punishing Fires and Monastery Mentors in a local tournament:

3 Island
1 Plains
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Grove of the Burnwillows

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Dig through Time

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
3 Engineered Explosives

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Red Elemental Blast

3 Monastery Mentor
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

SB:
3 Swan Song
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Wear/Tear
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Containment Priests
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Meddling Mage
1 Baneslayer Angel

MUs were Reanimator 2-1 (really easy postboard), UW Stoneblade 0-2, (this is brutal, since it's such a good MU, but G1 I played sloppily which allowed him to slip through his last TNN to finish me. G2 I flooded out horribly), RUG Delver 2-0 (really easy, relaxed MU, you can easily 1-1 him until you push through a Dig, EE was MVP), Grixis Omnitell 0-2, got outcountered both games.

Lessons:

- 24 lands is too many, going to cut the Plateau, not sure about what should be played in it's place, Preordain/Izzet Charm/Top, maybe another heavy hitter.

- MVPs: Dig, EE and Snapcaster Mage

- Monastery Mentor: Was never relevant, MUs were won by other cards, but in 2 of my MUs he was really dead, need to test him more, but I guess anything in those slots would have won

- Pretty happy about my SB

[klaus]

Sweet!

Looking forward to try out MM!

[Svknoe]

Carsten Kotter posted an updated list.

2 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Supreme Verdict

4 Island
2 Plains
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30178_Less-Treasure-More-Gifts.html

[HSCK]

I really liked that list but also the SFM package that Edelkamp had last weekend, going to test a hybrid over the next week.

[rancOr_]

I don't like Monastery Mentor in this deck. It mostly takes the spot of SFm+Batterskull, the lifegain is too important in a lot of mu's. We just want to take control over the game and have a few resilient win conditions. I have been doing really good with scm,sfm,jace,batterskull,keranos as my win conditions. Remember that all we need to do is survive the early game. Monastery Mentor , while very strong doesn't accomplish any of this.

[Svknoe]

I tested the list a bit, and monastery mentor was fairly impressive. When you slow roll out until the late game and play a few cantrips the card is somewhat resilient to even instant speed removal. The main drawback is the lack of lifelink and the main advantage is killing almost instantly after you have achieved control. Contrary to sfm I would mostly avoid paying this card at all early.

[ZimAshe]

looks like a list very close to Kotter's took 17th place in the open yesterday.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=79381

[leegoo]

been playing this a bit lately (3 snapcasters 2 mentor 3 jace) and feel pretty good about everything but Shardless. Anyone have similar results or a good strategy. Could just be the few games I've played against it I've been hit by overly good cascades.

Mentor, slow rolled at least, closes out games very fast.

[rancOr_]

Shardless BUG is one of the tougher mu's this deck has. I dont play mentor but 2sfm/batterskull. I play a mountain and a volcanic md and 3 REB/Pyro from the sideboard ,these help alot in this mu. It counters all the cards we care about: Ancestral Vision, Jace, DTT,bs,.. basically their draw engines. I have been having better results now that I tested that mu alot. Batterskull/Keranos are also very good against them to stabilize. If the games go long u can grind them out postboard with DTT,REB,SCM. Maindeck I feel they are a bit favored but its doable.

[leegoo]

I felt the games were pretty close, but topdeck wars favor them. I'll try out a few more REB's

How do you like Keranos in the board?

[rancOr_]

I play Keranos MD, he has been very good.

[klaus]

super glad this archetype still is alive and kicking :)
unfortunately I didn't have the time to test recently, but keep it coming buddies! I like where this is going.

[leegoo]

I play Keranos MD, he has been very good.

interesting, I may cut the 3rd jace to try one out main.

[theycallmeaisoka]

Played this at my local weekly 2-2 (Card Kingdom)
Lost to Mono Green Post and a different Gold Digger Variant both matches a drew poorly. Won vs Infect and Helm Enchantress

Creatrues 11
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendillion Clique
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Venser Shaper Savant

Plainswalkers 3
2 Jace the Mind Sculpter
1 Elspeth Knight Errant

Legendary Artifact 1
1 Umezawas Jitte

Spells 22
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Dig Through Time
1 Councles Judgement

Lands 23
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Cavern of souls

SB
3 Meddling Mage
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Fluster Storm
1 Pyroblast
1 REB
1 Venser Shaper Savant
1 Councles Judgement
1 Umezawas Jitte

The deck played relatively soundly, however I had problems with my manabase because of some greedy keeps. I got burned by running Cavern of souls vs 12 post because I couldn’t cast counerspell when it counted. Meddling Mage is always an allstar for me and the removal package felt strong vs infect. As a side note, running 1 ofs including equipment seems to work just fine. You can find just about anything with a dig through time. Also having multi deck through times is really bad esp when you can just snap them back later on in the game. I feel like this deck is better positioned for larger tournaments where you are less likely to face random decks. In weeklies you are more prone to face a wider range of decks so your removal gets negated by someones stupid brew (Mono G post…) . And yes for all those reading I got ultimate by Ugin…

[Tcpdump]

I'm still play this deck, but with bann cruise i change red to black splash, feel that reb aren't good like was. Now with black we can play discard, for protect our bombs.
I play this version, win to elf 2-1, nicfit 2-0, rug 2-1, rug 2-1, final split with urdelver (1-2 off records), this is the list:

Creatures:5
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Stoneforge Mystic

Spells:33
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Thoughtseize
1 Counterspell
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Batterskull
4 Force of Will
2 Dig Through Time

Lands:22
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
1 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

Sideboard:15
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Duress
1 Hydroblast
1 Pithing Needle
2 Containment Priest
1 Disenchant
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Rest for the Weary
2 Rest in Peace
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Vendilion Clique

[presquepartout]

played this list in a 14 person event

3 Monastery Mentor
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
4 Dig Through Time
1 Council's Judgment
1 Supreme Verdict

4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas

//Sideboard
2 Blood Moon
2 Containment Priest
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Wear // Tear
1 Council's Judgment
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Sudden Demise
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vendilion Clique

I went 2-2, beating Deathblade (2-0) and Sneak & Show (2-1) and losing to Deathblade (0-2) and Lands (1-2). Not really sure what's the deal with Deathblade. My wins felt very easy, whereas I was super behind in my loses. I'm chalking it up to variance, since I saw my DTT late in the loses, and he always hit his (and he was only playing one). I was definitely favored post board against S&S. In the game I lost, he got a Grisel in play, and I was almost able to race it with Mentor, but I bricked on my cantrips. Lands was an absolutely awful matchup, and I only won a game because his draws were terrible. I feel like Surgical Extraction might be necessary if you want to consistently win against Lands.

[Philipp2293]

Finished 3-1 at our local weekly Legacy tournament with the following list (please note this was taken from a french player, so not my design):

3 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Dig Through Time

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Fire/Ice

3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
3 Monastery Mentor
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Vedalken Shackles

SB:
3 Meddling Mage
2 Containment Priest
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Disenchant
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Blood Moon
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Path to Exile

My MUs were Esperblade (2-0), Nic Fit with Siege Rhinos (2-0), BUG Midrange (2-0) and Burn (1-2). The list performed absolutely stellar, but I'm still not sure about the various one-offs in the MD since I played it for the first time. G3 versus Burn was a real letdown, as I was having a Jace on an empty board, at 12 life, with counterspell und 2 Forces + 2 Pitchcards in hand, and I just wasn't able to find any other wincon in roughly 10 turns of Jace brainstorming, fetching, pondering etc...... But other than that the deck was really really strong, all other MUs were very easy.

EDIT: Since I actually saw my post was referred to on the french forum where I got the decklist from I'm gonna respond here and hope it get's read (since my french is very bad and I don't want to spam in English over there):

The situation with Jace was that the burn player was stuck on 2 lands with Eidolon on board, so I bounced his Eidolon with the first Jace activation, he replayed it, I rebounced it and when he played it the third time I counterspelled it. So Jace was on 1 loyality....I figured I couldn't ultimate before dying, so I tried to find a Monastery Mentor and race with my counterspells and Jace CA. Feel free to discuss this via PM.

[DuKeLiO]

I were playing @Cuneo list with some changes for a time now, and I like it very much. I went 4-0 and 4-1 this weekend in local stores:

3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
4 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
2 Jace the Mindsculptor
1 Ponder
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Council's Judgment
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Pyroblast
1 Supreme Veredict
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa

SB:
1 Pithing Needle
2 Wear/Tear
1 Supreme Veredict
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Flusterstorm
1 Gideon Jura
1 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroclasm
1 Pyroblast
1 Blood Moon

Probably cut a land for the 4th DTT was a mistake, maybe I swap it with the 2nd Ponder, or cut it, beacuse it seems like I was playing 61 cards (I didn't notice it until I wrote this post)
I like some of my test on sb, like Gideon Jura, thats perform very well against fair decks like D&T and BUG.
Also reinclude Leyline in sideboard and performs also very well, being key to defeat TES twice in a row and Punishing Fire

I played aganist:
2-0 4C Rock
2-0 TES
2-0 Team Italia with Punishing Fire
2-0 Bug Delver
2-1 BWG Dark Depths
2-0 Elves
1-2 Eureka Combo!!
2-1 TES
2-1 D&T

I liked the deck very much and have a ton of fun with it.

[klaus]

Really really love to see this archetype still is getting some love.

Just did a brew on paper featuring two rather unusual twists that are certainly cool, but might butcher the mana too much:

Wincons:
3 Jace
3 P. Fire
1 Batterskull (buys time against Aggro - happy with it)

More removal:
4 STP
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Council's Judgement

"Nope":
4 FoW
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Snare
2 CS

Dig:
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 DTT (finds the combo, is fueled by Carpet)

Other:
2 carpet of flowers (quite impressed by it tbh - cantrips make sure I don't draw it /can ship it back against non-blue decks, I loved it even without P. Fire, but fueling it with 4:r: per turn is super sweet!)

-38-

4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Island
1 Plains
-22-

SB:
2 Krosan Grip
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Pyroblast
1 REB
2 BeB
2 Pyroclasm
1 Bojuka Bog (testing - I figured it can't be removed with targeted discard, which is nice plus it produces mana)
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Flusterstorm


Will let you know how I fare!

[Philipp2293]

Wow this looks very close to my Punishing Control config. Instead of CJ und Supreme Verdict I run 3 EE cause of easier requirements, unless you'd be forced to blow up your own Carpets too often.

Also with Carpet MD and Krosan Grip SB I'd like to see one Tropical Island here.

[klaus]

Wow this looks very close to my Punishing Control config. Instead of CJ und Supreme Verdict I run 3 EE cause of easier requirements, unless you'd be forced to blow up your own Carpets too often.

Also with Carpet MD and Krosan Grip SB I'd like to see one Tropical Island here.

Hi Philipp,

valid point. But with all that dig (12, 15 counting Jaces) it should be easy enough to find a Grove when needed.
My problem with Tropical Island is that there are only 2 spells MD / 2 spells SB you need it for, and the mana base is already shaky as is.
I will try it w/o for the time being and see how it fares.

Any experiences / insights you wanna share?

[DuKeLiO]

The problem of not playing at least one non-grove green mana source is that some decks try to waste your grove and extirpate it better than trying to Extirpate you P.Fires. Tropical is a "wastelable" island and it's fine to run one, maybe instead of the second Island, and you will not have your green cards completely dead.

[Philipp2293]

Any experiences / insights you wanna share?

Well, I'm off to work in a few minutes, but some points that come to mind:

- I'm not sure you even need Pyroclasm in your SB, unless Elves or other tribal decks are a big concern in your local meta.
- With Punishing Fires in the MD I've been very happy to run between 2-3 Swan Songs in the SB
- 3 Cliques is a good start, but I think you want even more beaters with flash (Containment Priest would be a good start), to give you a shot of winning games faster if there is little time left on the clock since this deck is glacial.
- As for my decklist, my latest trial with a PF shell is 1 or 2 pages back, basically 53 Slots (List -1 Plateau -3 Monastery Mentor -1 Elspeth -2 Snapcaster Mage) are fixed, and the last 7 slots change with expected meta/whenever I want to try something new. Even though I've been playing these kind of shells for very long, it's very hard to evaluate the gain from running Punishing Fire, since the underlying blue shell is so strong. But PF is a very valuable tool and one of my favourite cards ever.

Maybe DukeLio has something to add too, since he is one of the original creators of Blue Control + PF in Legacy ;)

[DuKeLiO]

In my experience, with EEs, Punishing Fire and Swords rarely you'll need a Pyroclasm/Veredict against Elves, or wathever other deck. I don't think you need mass removal at all.
Also with UR delver gone I am not sure if you need Batterskull anymore, and I think it would be fine finishing the game with only Jace or PF. I have built also a hybrid deck but I had not the time to test it:

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Intuition
4 Dig Through Time
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
1 Life from the Loam
2 Engineered Explosives

1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
3 Grove the Burnwillows
1 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand

Sb:
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Wear // Tear
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
2 Teferi's Response
2 Containment Priest
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast

The list is 61 cards and I tried to reduce double costs as posible (maybe I should cut 3rd Counterspell). Teferi's Response maybe is very narrow and is a better option adding another Life from the Loam and another land. Also I'm not sure about Forbid, if playing at least one or not. I ever liked it in old versions beacuse I could seal the game with it.

[AnziD]

I'm not too familiar with the newer lists, but it seems like in a PF version of this deck, 4x Thought Scour, 4x Dig, 4x Snap could be really good

[Flojo82]

Play this List at our local Tournament:

1 Council's Judgement
2 Monastery Mentor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
4 Preordain
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Fire//Ice
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
1 Plains
3 Island
1 Mountain

Sideboard:
2 Containment Priest
2 Flustertstorm
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyroclasm
1 Sudden Demise
1 Wear//Tear
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Blood Moon

Matchups:

2:1 RUG Delver (Blood Moon G3)
2:0 Punishing Maverick (Blood Moon G2)
1:2 Grinding Station(Storm)
2:0 Grinding Station
2:0 Bug Delver

Love this Deck

[acman54321]

This might be a silly question, but why do most lists seem to prioritize Preordain before Ponder? Especially when there are plenty of fetches.

[Zllig]

This might be a silly question, but why do most lists seem to prioritize Preordain before Ponder? Especially when there are plenty of fetches.

Preordain is a better pure control card in general. With Dig and Preordain you can put cards on the bottom of your library and actually keep them there so you can avoid drawing them later.

[presquepartout]

Play this List at our local Tournament:

how often did you actually cast sphinx's revelation, and what was X on average?

[Flojo82]

Cast it in nearly every Game. Normal for 3. in 1 Game for 5. Love this Card as reset Button.

[DuKeLiO]

Sphinx's Revelation is too slow. You can't resolve it in a game you haven't already won. I would only play it in a meta full of midrange non-blue decks, what it isn't current Legacy meta.

[klaus]

Sphinx's Revelation is too slow. You can't resolve it in a game you haven't already won. I would only play it in a meta full of midrange non-blue decks, what it isn't current Legacy meta.
+1

[Flojo82]

Sometimes it is Slow, but against Decks with Many discard effects it is very good. I will try Cryptic command in this Slot in the next Tournament.

[Philipp2293]

Played the deck again at our biweekly sunday legacy and finished 4-1, resulting in 4th place with the worst breakers, but still good for a dual:

3 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Dig Through Time

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Lightning Bolt


3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
3 Monastery Mentor
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull

SB:
3 Meddling Mage
2 Containment Priest
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Wear/Tear
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Blood Moon
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Path to Exile

MU's were Elves (0-2), Aggro Loam (2-0), Death and Taxes (2-0), UWR Stoneblade (2-0) and Siege Rhino Nic Fit (2-0). Overall I was very happy with how the deck worked, Elves was just 2 games of cantripping into nothing, but since my Meta was full of Lingering Souls, Elves, and Mother of Runes, I'd like to squeeze a Pyroclasm in the SB.

[klaus]

Played the deck again at our biweekly sunday legacy and finished 4-1, resulting in 4th place with the worst breakers, but still good for a dual:

3 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Dig Through Time

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Lightning Bolt


3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
3 Monastery Mentor
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull

SB:
3 Meddling Mage
2 Containment Priest
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Wear/Tear
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Blood Moon
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Path to Exile

MU's were Elves (0-2), Aggro Loam (2-0), Death and Taxes (2-0), UWR Stoneblade (2-0) and Siege Rhino Nic Fit (2-0). Overall I was very happy with how the deck worked, Elves was just 2 games of cantripping into nothing, but since my Meta was full of Lingering Souls, Elves, and Mother of Runes, I'd like to squeeze a Pyroclasm in the SB.

I really like your list and second the Pyroclasm.

[Chaam]

Going to start playing getting the pieces together to play this beauty.

Sorceries (9)
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Pyroclasm
1 Council's Judgement
1 Supreme Verdict

Instants (26)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
4 Dig Through Time

Planeswalkers (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (22)
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
2 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroclasm
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Wear // Tear
1 Pithing Needle
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Containment Priest

[klaus]

Going to start playing getting the pieces together to play this beauty.

Creatures (3)
3 Snapcaster Mage

Sorceries (11)
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Pyroclasm
1 Council's Judgement
1 Supreme Verdict

Instants (23)
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
1 Fire // Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Dig Through Time

Planeswalkers (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (20)
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain

Have you done any testing with it yet?
Maxing out Preordains seems meh, as you'll durdle around while achieving nothing in the meantime more often than not.
Also four CS seem greedy as you won't have a UU flatrate.
What's your motivation behind F/I? I understand what it does, but there's a reason it doesn't see play in Legacy atm - low power level.
STP is the reason to splash W here, so I'd never leave home without the full playset ;-)
Last but not least, having Jace be your only wincon is doable but unnecessarily tough when it comes to close games.
Monastery Mentor has been clunky for me at times , but he definitely deserves more testing!

[ethebubbeth]

I'm tempted to try Carsten's list, substituting one of Baneslayer Angel and Moat for the Mentors (I don't have any yet).
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=79286

My meta is heavy on Miracles and Death & Taxes, but is otherwise very diverse. What do you think of that arrangement, with the following sideboard?

2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
2 Wear // Tear
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Blood Moon

I'm considering adding the third Counterspell and/or an Elspeth, Knight Errant but have no idea what to cut, so I'll probably play some games and determine what I find least useful if I do find that I end up wanting them.

[DuKeLiO]

Last weekend I won my monthly Legacy tournament (58 ppl) with the same decklist than my anterior post:

3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
4 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
2 Jace the Mindsculptor
1 Ponder
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Council's Judgment
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Pyroblast
1 Supreme Veredict
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa

SB:
1 Pithing Needle
2 Wear//Tear
1 Supreme Veredict
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Flusterstorm
1 Gideon Jura
1 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroclasm
1 Pyroblast
1 Blood Moon

My tournamet was:

1 Loss UWR Blade
2 Win BUG Delver
3 Win Food Chain Combo
4 Win Dragon Stompy with planeswalkers
5 Win GWB Zenith
6 Draw ID
QF Win D&T
SF Win ANT
F Win UWR Blade

The lost aganist UWR Blade was not too representative. My opponent had everything everytime so I lost finally. The guy in the finals, with the same deck had not any opportunitty of beating me. He hadn't any pressure anytime and Goldigger is a better control deck in a long run.
The most problematic matchup was ANT, but I have beaten the guy three in a row, so I suspect it is not so bad matchup at all. Leyline of Sanctity is MVP here annuling my lack of clock.

@Chamm list:
I think you are too angry with your list. Playing 12 cantrips means you will have to "do nothing" too often in the first turns because you will be busy playing cantrips to find lands and answers. I like the 4 Preordain + 1 Ponder +22 lands because I can skip the "find lands" part and focus my game on find answers to threats.
Also Stp is the best removal possible in a control deck, so I don't know why you play Ligthning Bolt and Fire/Ice over 2 Stps. Your list is very soft aganist Tarmogoyf, Tasigur and other large creatures because of this.

[klaus]

My meta is heavy on Miracles and Death & Taxes, but is otherwise very diverse.

Here's how I'd tailor a list for this meta (in fact, I'd also bring it to an unknown meta :cool: ):

2 SCM
2 SFM
1 Batterskull

4 Ponder
1 Preordain
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Supreme Verdict

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
1 Pyroblast
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Dig Through Time

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (22)
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins

SB:
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Containment Priest
1 Rest in Peace
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Pyroclasm
1 Wear/Tear
2 Pithing Needle (hits Top + Vial - your archenemies' key cards)

-
Bloodmoon is not very powerful more often than not imo.

Edit:
@DuKeLio:
That's awesome! Congratz!

[HSCK]

I think new Narset definitely can find a space in a deck like this.

[klaus]

I think new Narset definitely can find a space in a deck like this.

Maybe if it cost 1URW..

[HSCK]

Isn't that worse than its current casting cost?

[klaus]

Isn't that worse than its current casting cost?

not quite

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=386616&type=card

[death]

I think he may be referring to this


http://media.wizards.com/2015/dftyuvbd564776rvf/en_Q21slVTGSa.png

[klaus]

I think he may be referring to this


http://media.wizards.com/2015/dftyuvbd564776rvf/en_Q21slVTGSa.png

Gotcha, but still: Jace >> that lady.

[DuKeLiO]

Narset is worse than Jace, and both competes for the same slots. If I am in a position to keep alive two 4cc planeswalkers I will win with Jace only, and if I have only one I will prefer Jace 95% of the time. When I play Jace, if he dies, it is usually a Fog and draw 1-3 cards with the +0 ability (exchange dead cards with good ones it's effeclively +1 or +2 cards). Narset not garantize anyone, you have like a 65% of drawing a card and I will have a better Fog, but it's rarely worths the investiment. And the Rebound ability it's also not amazing, because you can't copy counterspells and for copying a Brainstorm, it is better use Jace one.
I think Narset don't worth it at least in no especific builds to abuse her. If you want to play Narset in Legacy, try to assemble a Doubling Season + Narset Ultimatum combo.

[The Treefolk Master]

This deck won a 143 person tournament in (I think) Italy:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16038&iddeck=119604

Thoughts? It runs more walkers than the average Gold Digger lists. I played a few games with it and the super stable mana base is nice, and the deck was less clunky than it seems on paper.

I would like to fit in some Leylines into the sideboard to make up for our lack of clock vs ANT/TES, plus they are also useful vs Burn and BGx. Maybe cut -1 Spell Snare -1 Humility to make room for 2 Leylines?

[klaus]

This deck won a 143 person tournament in (I think) Italy:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16038&iddeck=119604

Thoughts? It runs more walkers than the average Gold Digger lists. I played a few games with it and the super stable mana base is nice, and the deck was less clunky than it seems on paper.

I would like to fit in some Leylines into the sideboard to make up for our lack of clock vs ANT/TES, plus they are also useful vs Burn and BGx. Maybe cut -1 Spell Snare -1 Humility to make room for 2 Leylines?

I tested EtA as a finisher, and it performed decently, though 2 Tops would be needed then.
If you take a closer look you'll realize this becomes a blend of Miracles and GD, basically trading CB & Top for Dig & Snare.
I'm still not sure what's better, but the switch seems to have paid off for this guy.

[Pdingo]

Hei Guys

First Time i writte in this Treath;)
I dont like the Name but it's ok. I won, well i splitt in Finals in a 31 Man Tournament in Luzern, Switzerland;)
I updatet Schoeneggers List (was similiar to mine) and played this;)

I call it UWR Pyromancer /Mentor or i think UWR Humans would be right ;)

3 Cavern of Souls
4 Brainstorm
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Dig Through Time
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Swords to Plowshares

SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Wear // Tear
SB: 3 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction

I dont like the other weird lists in this threath.
Pyromancer and Mentor should be played as a 4off.

Match Ups was like:

Match 1

2:1 against Infect very Close one and very nice Game.

2:1 Hight Tide I lost the first Game because i dont find a second blue split for my second fow..But after Sideboarding he have no Chance to win. Oh yes and i payed 1 flusterstorm for 7. Always good against a Deck that you Play by yourself.

2:0 Bug Delver Game 1 was Close and he discarded me alot. I can still handle him all hes creature. After i get top and Mentor was online. i won the game;)

Draw like a Boss

Draw like a Boss

Top 8

Match 6 against Deathblade.

Funny match he beating me with 3 True Name and i had 2 Mentor and 1 Jitte and alot Tokens on the field. Only way to win.. 53 dmg in one Turn haha. 2:0

Match 7

A very hard and Close One against R/G lands 2:1

Yes lands is a bader Match up. The first one i lost..Game 2 i sided in CB. He doesn,t know that. I get top and cb online and after 20 Minutes i won finaly. game 3 was next Level and i sided out Cb and he sided in 4 Krosan Grip.
The Game ended like this, i beat him with a lot Pyromancer Tokens and he had 3 Krosan Grips in Hand;)

Match 8

Was a Player in my Playgroup but we was very tired and splited the Price so i get a Usea and sold him for
He was on Grixis Controll. Would be an interesting Game.

Hope for Replies

Thanks and greets Dingo

[kiblast]

I tested EtA as a finisher, and it performed decently, though 2 Tops would be needed then.
If you take a closer look you'll realize this becomes a blend of Miracles and GD, basically trading CB & Top for Dig & Snare.
I'm still not sure what's better, but the switch seems to have paid off for this guy.

Meh, I don't like the list, plus Riccardo Biava is an extremely skilled control player, probably one of the best if not the best in Italy at the moment…I think his skill served him better than the build this time.

On the other hand, I think EtA is easily the best wincon, there's no need to toy around with other stuff, I realized playing 2 tops and 2 EtA might be just easier more compact and less clunky than any other wincon config.

[klaus]

On the other hand, I think EtA is easily the best wincon, there's no need to toy around with other stuff, I realized playing 2 tops and 2 EtA might be just easier more compact and less clunky than any other wincon config.
Certainly a valid move and not clunky with all the library manipulation.

Another topic that needs to be addressed again imo is Ponder VS. Preordain.
TBH I haven't tested Preordain, but I see lists popping up that do. Their pilots likely claim it's a better cantrip, for builds that don't frequently look for a specific card, plus it ultimately filters better in a vacuum (given you don't have a post-Ponder fetchland available, which is the case more often than not). It could very well be better at finding two consecutive lands, while Ponder certainly is better at finding a single/specific land.
Side note: Miracles leans on Ponder way heavier than GD for two reasons: 1.) it strives to assemble CB Top, 2.) Ponder serves better to keep Terminus (& EtA) on top aka. delay it for another turn to max out its impact.
I find those arguments valid, but not sufficiently convincing sans further testing.

What are your findings here?
Discuss!

---
PS - here's an iteration, I'll try out:

4 BS
4 Preordain
2 Top

4 FoW
2 CS
2 Snare
1 Pyroblast

4 DTT

4 STP
1 CJ
1 EE
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Terminus
1 Lightning Helix (for style and life gain)
1 SCM

2 Jace
2 EtA

(39)

4 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
3 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

(21)

SB:
2 Contamination Priest
1 RiP
3 Clique
2 REB
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroclasm
1 Disenchant
1 EE

---

The question remains: 2 Snare + 4 DTT >> +2 Top + 4 CB ?
The answer is meta-dependent and probably boils down to: Lots of GBx => favor GD while little GBx => favors Miracles - "because Decay".

[DuKeLiO]

I have been playing with Preordain over Ponder for a while now. I like Preordain for the same reasons you listed, Klaus. In a build with a low land count it is very frequent to look for lands to play. In a 22+ lands it is rarely to do so, and you can instead keep cantrips to later turns keeping mana up to counter. Preordain is working ok for me, but it is a very thought question, because you can see very easy when you have prefered Preordain over Ponder when you see a three cards and only want to keep one of them, but the other isn't so easy. Also, chaining Preordain is often better than doing the same with Preordain because you see new cards and not the same if you didn't shuffle. Preordain also is little better riding out of brainstorm bad cards, reducing chance to draw a bad card because some of them are at the button of the library and no randomly shuffled away.
Also I'm not sure why GoldDigger as the pure control deck like mine is the same deck as the Young Pyromancer-Monastery Mentor build like Pdingo build, as the decks play so different.

[cschacal]

Duke, do you think there is room for an Entreat the Angels in your build? I was testing your deck yesterday and I think one more threat is needed to speed up the games. I will change the Fact or Fiction for an Entreat, will shave the ponder and remove one main red blast for another pierce (my meta is not so flooded with blue decks) Maybe I should try adding another Elspeth instead of adding the Entreat but I really like the power level of this card and the variety of threats it adds to the deck.


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[DuKeLiO]

I was thinking about playing some EtA and SDT on the deck for a while, but I think they not worth it. SDT is too mana intensive card, more than any other cantrip, and it's like the deck needs. Also SDT has less sinergy with the rest of the deck than other cantrips, because it doesn't fill the graveyard for delve and it's not reusable with Snapcaster Mage.
I have never problem on finishing matches with a lone Elspeth, two Jaces and Snapcaster Mage, but if you think you need another wincon I'm on it being Gideon Jura (instead a second Elspeth). I play it on sideboard and it is performing very well.
Sure, Fact or Fiction is the most questionable card, but if I replace it will be for another CA spell like the 3rd Jace or 4th DTT than also help finishing games.

[cschacal]

Why Gideon over Elspeth? What matches should we use him? I was wondering if the new card "Myth Realized" could be used as a finisher in this deck. I was also toying around with the idea of using Cunning Wish and adding the new card "Secure the Wastes" to the sideboard as an "emergency" finisher but I don't think that a bunch of 1/1 tokens will do the job as good as a bunch of 4/4 flying angels :wink:
I'm going to change the sideboard removing the supreme verdict for an engineered explosive and one pyroclasm for an enlightened tutor. This way I think it will be easier to find the one offs (pithing needle, explosives, leyline and my beloved Blood Moon). My local meta has several Cloudspot players that are a pain in the ass... could you give some advice?

[serendib]

Why Gideon over Elspeth? What matches should we use him? I was wondering if the new card "Myth Realized" could be used as a finisher in this deck. I was also toying around with the idea of using Cunning Wish and adding the new card "Secure the Wastes" to the sideboard as an "emergency" finisher but I don't think that a bunch of 1/1 tokens will do the job as good as a bunch of 4/4 flying angels :wink:
I'm going to change the sideboard removing the supreme verdict for an engineered explosive and one pyroclasm for an enlightened tutor. This way I think it will be easier to find the one offs (pithing needle, explosives, leyline and my beloved Blood Moon). My local meta has several Cloudspot players that are a pain in the ass... could you give some advice?

because Gideon Jura on field means any BUG decks has nearly lost the game on the spot
gideon can even face both jace + liliana both on the other side of the board
also when you are 1-0 Gideon can stall opponent's aggressive plans better than elspeth

[Tcpdump]

Today i play this
Name: Walkers

Creatures:5
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Stoneforge Mystic

Spells:34
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
1 Council's Judgment
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Batterskull
4 Force of Will
3 Dig Through Time

Lands:21
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

Sideboard:15
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
2 Containment Priest
2 Disenchant
1 Rest for the Weary
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Vendilion Clique

The deck is very funny, sorin was a house all the night, his hability to put a token with lifelink is better than elspeth and +1/+0 is like a finisher when you have at less 2 tokens.

I beat:
2-0 jeskai blade, out -2 counterspell -3s.pierce, in +3 thoughtsz +2 clique

2-0 burn, out -1 jace -1 preordain -1 ponder +2 disenchant +1 rest for weary

1-1-1 death taxes, out -2 Counterspell -3 spierce -1 fow +2 disenchant +2 tdeluge +1 pithing +1 clique

2-0 show+sneak, out -2 sverdict -4 plowshares -1 sorin -1 elspeth -1 council +2 Containment +2 clique +3 thoughsz +1 disenchant +1 needle

[klaus]

Interesting take, though I doubt Black > Red here, since:
REB > Thoughtseize
Pyroclasm / Bloodmoon > Toxic Deluge / Sorin (though he's a nice fit overall)
Wear / Tear > Disenchant

[Kobal]

Wear / Tear > Disenchant
There is quite some debate over this over in the Miracles thread, and I think the arguments apply here as well.

[cschacal]

I agree with Klaus the red splash is better than black. Miracles plays with the top cards of the deck so having to fetch for a volcanic to play the wear/tear can be a problem some times but this deck does not rely so heavily in the top cards of the deck.

[klaus]

Sure, anybody care to copy paste a decent evaluation from the Miracles thread?

Here's my 2 Pence:

Disenchant Pros (W/T Cons):
* doesn't rely on off-color mana to destroy Artifacts (which does make a difference VS Vial.dec)
* edge case: destroys CB more reliably due to being CMC2

W/T Pros (Disenchant Cons):
* can destroy both an artifact & an enchantment with "fuse" (yup, did it multiple times)
* works better with SCM (lower mana requirement)
* edge case: only requires one mana to destroy Choke, which can be relevant

[Tcpdump]

REB > Thoughtseize
Pyroclasm / Bloodmoon > Toxic Deluge / Sorin (though he's a nice fit overall)
Wear / Tear > Disenchant


toxic deluge is more eficient than pyroclasm, kill nemesis, tokens batterskull, etc. about blood moon depend of meta with lands or 12post, but if you think is a problem? still exist back to basics.
wear/tear or disenchant, depends of you, with many wasteland i prefer disenchant, but like preordain or ponder, both is good.
REB is a big lost, but thoughtseize is more versatile against combo decks, control, etc.

i dont say "this decks is best than splash red", but i have better result with black.

[cschacal]

I'm gonna try this list next time. I hope the blood moons, pithing needle and e. tutor package will help against the cloudpost decks. I have also moved the vendilions to the main deck to make room in the sideboard.

Creatures (5)

3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
Spells (33)

2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
2 Council's Judgment
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Dig Through Time
Lands (22)

2 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
Sideboard (15)
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Wear // Tear
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pyroclasm
2 Blood Moon
1 Gideon Jura
1 Flusterstorm



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[screallix]

I'm not sure wether it fits into the Blade Control Thread or Gold Digger but I Top2'ed a 72 man tournament yesterday with 3 Dig Through Time in the Maindeck.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21441-DTB-Blade-Control&p=875061&viewfull=1#post875061

My thoughts about the cards:
Maindeck
4 DTT is to much. 3 is perfect.
Snapcaster is super great. Maybe I'll be going up to 3.
Plateau is a great Land for 4 Bolts Maindeck. If I cut down to 2 Bolts I'd change the Plateau
to a second Plains.
1 Councils Judgmend and 1 Supreme Verdict are perfect for Dig Through Time and 8 cantrips.
20 Lands is the right amount. I've been playing 19 Lands, 20 lands with 10fetch, 6 nonbasic, 4 basic and
my current configuration is 3/3/1 nonbasic, 3 basic and 10fetch
Sideboard:
Sudden Demise is heavily underrated! It beats Elfes, Death and Taxes, Maverick, Merfolk, Goblins etc.
Spell Snare is not good in the Maindeck. SB it's perfect.
Bloodmoon (although I only run 3 Basics) really evens some of the worst MU including Lands, MUD, 12Post and BUG Control/BUG Tempo.

~screallix

[klaus]

Just a little sidenote: I've swapped (nearly) all my Ponders for Preordains and am fairly happy with them.
Ponder always felt underpowered without an available fetchland. Preordain does a lot of good work here!

edit:
this is my current weapon of choice:

4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
4 DTT
3 Jace
1 Ponder

4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
2 Flusterstorm (yes, over Spell Pierce, since it's a better topdeck after the early game)
1 Counterspell
1 Pyroblast

4 STP
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Engineered Explosives

2 Batterskull
2 SCM

4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Academy Ruins

SB:
1 Wear / Tear
1 REB
2 Spell Pierce
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Containment Priest
2 Young Pyromancer (rogue man plan)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Humility
1 Blood Moon
1 flex slot

[danpo]

Let me know if I'm in the wrong thread, but here's a list I've gone 3-1 with at my local (like a dozen guys, unsanctioned) the last couple weeks here in Berkeley, California.

[[ The design owes heavily to this list by Yoann Allier, which I saw got T4 in a 45-man in France a couple months back: http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/179786 ]]

-----
4 monastery mentor

1 keranos of storms
1 vedalken shackles
1 forked bolt
1 flusterstorm

4 lightning bolt
4 swords to plowshares
4 force of will
2 jace the mind sculptor
2 engineered explosives
2 counterspell
2 preordain
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 dig through time

3 tundra
2 volcanic island
1 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
4 scalding tarn
4 island
1 mountain
1 plains

SB
4 meddling mage
2 pyroclasm
2 blood moon
2 surgical extraction
2 disenchant
3 red elemental blast
-----

Last week I beat Merfolk, Elves and Death & Taxes before getting decisively crushed by MUD (Chalice, Trinisphere, Tangle Wire, Lodestone, etc).

This week I beat Miracles, Elves and eventually Reanimator, but lost round three to a weird BUG variant (Loam, Stryx, Lili… Notion Thief is a fucking) involving Cunning Wish and I think zero Deathrite Shamans.

---

I won't bore you with complete rundowns (do you need to be told Pyroclasm works good against Elves, etc?) but here were two really silly deciding games that happened:

-

Against Death & Taxes, I boarded in Blood Moons. These shut down Ports and Karakas, I reasoned, both of which do a fair amount of work against me. Well, my opponent kept a hand with two or maybe even three Ports and not a lot of action. We derdled for quite some time but eventually I got up to enough mana, despite being triple-Ported, to resolve Blood Moon. More derdles ensued.

My opponent then resolved Ethersworn Canonist. I had removal for it but thought "meh, I’ll just get a Mentor out and then net a Monk + Prowess trigger when I kill the Canonist." No – absolutely not. My opponent fired off a Swords to Plowshares at my freshly-cast Mentor and when I went to counter his STP he pointed back at his Canonist and said "you've played your one spell for the turn." D'oh! Mentor down! The Canonist was promptly slain on his upkeep but the damage was done:

This was all particularly problematic because at the time last week I was actually only running 3x Mentors and a singleton Snapcaster (which, apart from the time it surprise-blocked a random Lord of Atlantis, was never terribly exciting). My opponent counted the cards in my library and made clear he was banking on me decking out before I could finish him.

So we proceeded to go back and forth, with me drawing cantrips into removal, him drawing land and dudes but mostly poop and his guys steadily getting killed (I think he said he regrettably boarded out his Sword of Fire and Ice).

Eventually my opponent baited out some counters, I think while I was obliviously churning out Monk tokens by protecting my last and newly-cast Mentor, and he was thus able to resolve a Cataclysm with Aether Vial up.

So it then became clear if Mentor was only attacking for two damage a turn, my opponent had like 13 life and I only had six cards left in my deck, so in theory he could’ve decked me out… except on my very last turn, the card I drew leaving me with zero cards left in my library, was, meh, this sucks, attack you for two, no blocks, you’re at three? Lightning Bolt. I’m a jerk. A lucky jerk, but a jerk all the same.

Really silly game of Magic.

-

The other game that’s worth telling you about occurred in game three of the last match against Reanimator just now.

I had Surgical’d in game two and seen zero copies of Show and Tell in his sixty, but he had boarded some more so I couldn’t be certain. He was on the play for game three and mulled to six.

I chose to keep a hand of Ponder, Ponder, Force of Will, Surgical Extraction, Meddling Mage, Jace the Mind Sculptor and Swords to Plowshares. Zero of those cards are lands, but I was on the draw, and my opponent had mulled so I said what the hell.

My opponent goes Petal, Thoughtseize you? In the interest of preserving the surprise / being a loose dipshit I Force it. He breaks Petal to Brainstorm and shrugs and lets FOW counter his Thoughtseize.

I then rip Flooded Strand like a champ, Ponder and set up a turn-two Meddling Mage naming Entomb. My opponent then draws basically poop, I draw tons of counters to answer his attempted Massacre some turns later, and Pikula goes the distance.

Better lucky than good, right?

---

Some thoughts:

Dig Through Time is insane, constantly slaying creatures with so much spot removal makes me feel like a cowboy, and Monastery Mentor doesn't need very much time to just kill a man. I have cast Vedalken Shackles zero times in eight matches and often board it out. Keranos is like a planeswalker my opponents can't kill, he's awesome. Blood Moon is lurid. So yeah.

Good luck have fun and do a bunch of weird stuff. Yep.

[klaus]

...
Hi danpo,
your list certainly belongs in this thread, despite quite a few differences to what we could consider the "core" by now.
At the end of the day many choices have to be made and justified by the meta. Yours seems quite small and thus predictable. I assume there's hardly any Combo running around.
Anyway I've added some food for thought to your list:

4 monastery mentor -----> 4 is clunky/overkill, as has been agreed on in various threads. To really make him work you'd also need Gitaxian Probe.

1 keranos of storms -----> it's tough to justify this card in the MD over Jace #3 especially if you're not running Top, which makes it rock in the first place
1 vedalken shackles ----> valid choice for creature-infested metas with little BG decks (= small amount of Decays)
1 forked bolt --------> I'd rock Pyroclasm / Supreme Verdict over this any given day.
1 flusterstorm -------> a singleton seems rather random, no?

4 lightning bolt -------> see Forked Bolt
4 swords to plowshares
4 force of will
2 jace the mind sculptor
2 engineered explosives
2 counterspell
2 preordain ---------------> I came to choose Preordain over Ponder like a few other deck architects have done. Have you tried it?
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 dig through time

3 tundra
2 volcanic island
1 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
4 scalding tarn
4 island
1 mountain
1 plains

SB
4 meddling mage ------> Vendilion Clique and Ethersworn Canonist seem to trump Mage in most scenarios.
2 pyroclasm
2 blood moon
2 surgical extraction
2 disenchant
3 red elemental blast

You do run an increased amount of instants and sorceries, which begs the question: why not throw some Snapcaster Mages in the mix? They do trigger Mentors and somewhat make up for your small counter suite. -1 Bolt, -1 Forked Bolt + 2 SCM seems good.

[cschacal]

Danpo build looks like a different deck to me. I prefer a more hard control build with planeswalkers as main win conditions. After testing my last build I didn't like the Vendilions in the main deck. I tried a build with cunning wish yesterday and totally crushed a friend playing his uwr delver deck. I need more testing against different decks but I liked it and was very funny playing the deck:

3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Cunning Wish
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
2 Council's Judgment
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Dig Through Time

Lands (22)
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard (15)
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Path to exile
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Wear // Tear
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Containment Priest
1 Pyroclasm
2 Blood Moon
1 Gideon Jura
1 Flusterstorm

I really liked the versatility of the wishes bringing to the first game the blasts and the wear/tear. I would like to try Secure the Wastes and Fact or fiction in the wish sideboard but there is no room for everything :wink:

[DuKeLiO]

Finally I started playing Wasteland as non-basic hate. I needed an answer against Omnitell Boseijus and I thought the Infect matchup wasn't as good as I wanted, so I added two wasteland maindeck instead the 10th fetchland and adding the 23th manasource for the lonely Ponder. I played this list yesterday to won my monthly Legacy tournament:

3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Snare
4 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
2 Jace the Mindsculptor
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Council's Judgment
1 Secure the Wastes
2 Pyroblast
1 Supreme Veredict
2 Wasteland
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn

SB:
2 Wasteland
2 Wear/Tear
1 Supreme Veredict
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Flusterstorm
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Gideon Jura
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroclasm
1 Pyroblast

Participation was low, 30, but we played six swiss rounds and top8. I went:
Round 1 GWb Zenith 1-2
Round 2 Miracles 2-0
Round 3 Omnitell 0-2
Round 4 BUG Delver 2-0
Round 5 BUG Shardless 2-0
Round 6 Infect 2-0
Qs Infect 2-0
Ss BUG Shardless 2-1
Fs BUG Delver 2-0

I'm not sure how good is Flusterstorm maindeck over other options. I think it weak the Miracles matchup, because I low the one mana cost counters against Counterbalance from 5 to 3. Sure, it is far better against Delver decks and I made the 2x1 sometimes yesterday, but I'm not completely sold. I change the FoF I used to play for the 4th DTT because fluster too, to catch my opponents and being greedy XD
On sideboard I played another two wastelands to fight non-basics. I thought on playing a Crucible instead the 4th Wasteland, but against combo decks like Omnitell, Infect and ANT the wasteland is better without any doubt, and Crucible makes Abrupt Decay not dead against grindy matchups, so I finally decided against it.

[klaus]

Hey Duke,

that list looks sweet.
How did Secure the Wastes do for you?
Wasteland certainly is an option, putting it in the SB however seems odd. I'd rather go for Bloodmoon here, as the impact is much greater.

[Ancestral]

Finally I started playing Wasteland as non-basic hate. I needed an answer against Omnitell Boseijus and I thought the Infect matchup wasn't as good as I wanted, so I added two wasteland maindeck instead the 10th fetchland and adding the 23th manasource for the lonely Ponder. I played this list yesterday to won my monthly Legacy tournament:

3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Snare
4 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
2 Jace the Mindsculptor
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Council's Judgment
1 Secure the Wastes
2 Pyroblast
1 Supreme Veredict
2 Wasteland
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn

SB:
2 Wasteland
2 Wear/Tear
1 Supreme Veredict
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Flusterstorm
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Gideon Jura
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroclasm
1 Pyroblast

Participation was low, 30, but we played six swiss rounds and top8. I went:
Round 1 GWb Zenith 1-2
Round 2 Miracles 2-0
Round 3 Omnitell 0-2
Round 4 BUG Delver 2-0
Round 5 BUG Shardless 2-0
Round 6 Infect 2-0
Qs Infect 2-0
Ss BUG Shardless 2-1
Fs BUG Delver 2-0

I'm not sure how good is Flusterstorm maindeck over other options. I think it weak the Miracles matchup, because I low the one mana cost counters against Counterbalance from 5 to 3. Sure, it is far better against Delver decks and I made the 2x1 sometimes yesterday, but I'm not completely sold. I change the FoF I used to play for the 4th DTT because fluster too, to catch my opponents and being greedy XD
On sideboard I played another two wastelands to fight non-basics. I thought on playing a Crucible instead the 4th Wasteland, but against combo decks like Omnitell, Infect and ANT the wasteland is better without any doubt, and Crucible makes Abrupt Decay not dead against grindy matchups, so I finally decided against it.

well interesting list no doubt. a couple of questions:
1- doesn´t take too long to win without any kill condition decently ? secure the wastes doenst seem even good.

2- why not whithe sun´s zenith?

[Kobal]

@Ancestral: This is a control deck, the goal is to win eventually, not necessarily ultra quick. :)

I played nearly the same list as DuKeLiO (he provided it via PM) in our local 16 man tournament last Saturday, with the following maindeck changes:

- 1 Dig Through Time
- 1 Secure the Wastes
+ 1 Fact or Fiction
+ 1 Elspeth Knight Errant

I can understand the allure of Secure the wastes (instant, reuseable via Snapcaster) but I simply did not have access to one. Also it seems a bit of a tossup to me and very matchup dependent which is the better option.

I really liked the way the deck played out. Hopefully Wizards will allow us to play with it for a bit longer and not take away Dig Through Time. Having access to Wastelands definitely improved it in my opinion. Sadly I did not fare quite as well as DuKeLiO, which at least in part was due to my unfamiliarity, in particular with sideboarding. Which is why I bring this up here. :)

1. Round: Stax
Game one he goes first and plays first turn Chalice@1 (Forced) and second turn Smokestack (resolved). I waste one of his sol lands and refuse to play lands as long as his Smokestack is in play, which dragged out the game a bit but in the end this was a losing position.
Sideboarding: Wish it was always that easy :).
-2 Flusterstorm
-2 Pyroblast
+2 Wasteland (for his factories, and as additional mana sources. Also, what else should I bring in instead? :) )
+2 Wear/Tear
Game two and three he did not have quite as insane a start and I was able to comfortably outcontrol him. All stars were Counterspell in conjunction with Snapcaster. I won both games with Jace Ultimate.

2.Round: ANT
Game one I win thanks to a Flusterstorm off a hail mary Brainstorm.
Sideboarding: I find that really tough, as ANT can bring in quite a few nasties that require different answers: Xantid Swarm, Empty the Warrens, Defense Grid, ...
I settled on the following (Advice/discussion here is very welcome):
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Council's Judgment
-1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
+2 Vendilion Clique
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Leyline of Sanctity
+2 Pyroclasm (at least they help against Xantid Swarm and Empty the Warrens)
Game 2 I maybe misplay slightly, in any case he gets off an Empty the Warrens for 10 Goblins which do me in as I fail to find a Pyroclasm in time.
Game 3 I keep a starting hand of 2 Lands, Leyline, 2 Counterspell, Flusterstorm, Pyroblast on the play. I drop Leyline and a land. He drops Xantid Swarm. I lose. :(

3.Round: BUG Delver
Game one: I simply can't handle all his creatures in time. Possibly a misplay or two as well.
Sideboarding:
-4 Force of Will
-1 Counterspell
+1 Gideon Jura
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Pyroblast
+2 Pyroclasm
Game two: I eventually regain control and he concedes when Gideon smacks Liliana out of the game
Game three: I draw too many red cards, which means I have to fetch for Volcanic repeatedly, which in turn gives enough fodder for his 3 or 4 Wastelands drawn. I likely did not play optimally, but I probably also added too many red cards to the deck during boarding.
DuKeLiO, how do you board against BUG Delver?

4.Round: Miracles
The matchup is probably lightly favorable for Gold Digger. It is a big help that most of our action is instant speed, while Miracles' is not, so we can play the waiting game better. In any case I had no real difficulty winning in two games.
Sideboarding (not exactly sure I remember this correctly):
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Vendillion Clique
+1 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Flusterstorm

How would you have boarded in these matchups?

[DuKeLiO]

Secure the Wastes:
It performed well. Some matches it shone killing Lilianas, Jaces and finishing fast when you have controled the game. Sometimes you miss Elspeth, mainly versus wasteland/tempo decks. With this version with two Flusterstorm maindeck I think I don't need these extra tool against tempo. White Sun's Zenith is too mana intensive. The WWW requirement is too difficult to achieve against some decks and it is too weak when you are playing it for 4 or 5 mana.

The problem with Blood Moon on sideboard is Krosan Grip. I really want to win against decks like Lands and Cloupost, beacuse decks like BUG I can win without them. I try to win everything and Blood Moon often isn't enough against Land and post beacuse the oponent has plenty of time to beat you. Also vs Infect blood moon use to be GG in games when you are already winning, but it is a very risky movement, because if I try to Blood Moon on turn three and it not resolves or it is destroyed with a Krosan Grip I will lose the game. On MKM Rome I played Ruination for the same reason, but I want to beat Boseiju too, and Ruination is very poor against it, so I opted finally for Wasteland. Now my plan with 4 Wasteland on sideboarded games against lands and post is wasteland the Cloudpost and play a Surgical Extraction after.

I sideboarded versus BUG Delver like you but -1 Counterspell +1 Supreme Veredict

Stax. I were included Gideon Jura too, maybe for the 4th wasteland beacuse I think 25 lands is too much (I upped the land count already to add wasteland).

ANT. I use to sideboard Surgical Extraction too, and take out at least one Jace too, beacuse it is too slow and too risky to tap out for him. They don't attack our mana, so I also side out at least one land:
-1 Jace the Mindsculptor
-3 Swords to Plowshares
-2 Council's Judgment
-1 Secure the Wastes
-1 Supreme Veredict
-2 Plains
+1 Wasteland
+2 Vendilion Clique
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Leyline of Sanctity
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Pyroclasm
+1 Pyroblast

[Kobal]

@DuKeLiO

So now that Wizards has decided to allow us to play for at least another three months with this beauty of a deck... Have you had time to test the matchup against the newest incarnation of Miracles with its heavy focus on Monestary Mentor? What were your impressions?

Also, did you reach a final conclusion whether the 4th Dig Through Time is better than the first Fact or Fiction?

P.S: Last tournament I got my first turn 0 kill with the deck. Sideboarded game against ANT. He keeps. I keep. I drop Leyline. He scoops. :)

[DuKeLiO]

I really didn't tested against the Monastery Mentor Miracles, and I haven't played against it neither, but I have played some matchs against traditional Miracles siding in MM. My plan against Miracles from some time ago is keep Supreme Veredict and siding in the 2nd copy also. They are not too good cards in the matchups, but they gives at least an opportunity to beat Cavern+MM.
I don't know if this plan will be enough to beat the dedicated lists, but I suspect it doesn't, but there aren't too many real options, and I think the better one in case of this matchup being prominent is add a third Supreme Veredict copy.
For the DTT vs FoF issue, for the moment I will continue playing DTT beacuse nobody is playing graveyard hate right now, but I will swap when it happens. I am seeing a little grow of Reanimator, and it wil bring more GY hate for sure.

[princeofperasia]

Finally I started playing Wasteland as non-basic hate. I needed an answer against Omnitell Boseijus and I thought the Infect matchup wasn't as good as I wanted, so I added two wasteland maindeck instead the 10th fetchland and adding the 23th manasource for the lonely Ponder. I played this list yesterday to won my monthly Legacy tournament:

3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Snare
4 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
2 Jace the Mindsculptor
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Council's Judgment
1 Secure the Wastes
2 Pyroblast
1 Supreme Veredict
2 Wasteland
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn

SB:
2 Wasteland
2 Wear/Tear
1 Supreme Veredict
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Flusterstorm
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Gideon Jura
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroclasm
1 Pyroblast

Participation was low, 30, but we played six swiss rounds and top8. I went:
Round 1 GWb Zenith 1-2
Round 2 Miracles 2-0
Round 3 Omnitell 0-2
Round 4 BUG Delver 2-0
Round 5 BUG Shardless 2-0
Round 6 Infect 2-0
Qs Infect 2-0
Ss BUG Shardless 2-1
Fs BUG Delver 2-0

I'm not sure how good is Flusterstorm maindeck over other options. I think it weak the Miracles matchup, because I low the one mana cost counters against Counterbalance from 5 to 3. Sure, it is far better against Delver decks and I made the 2x1 sometimes yesterday, but I'm not completely sold. I change the FoF I used to play for the 4th DTT because fluster too, to catch my opponents and being greedy XD
On sideboard I played another two wastelands to fight non-basics. I thought on playing a Crucible instead the 4th Wasteland, but against combo decks like Omnitell, Infect and ANT the wasteland is better without any doubt, and Crucible makes Abrupt Decay not dead against grindy matchups, so I finally decided against it.

4 Wastes seems excessive no? What are thoughts on Blood Moon/Ruination instead of playing wastes?

Edit: I just saw this post http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28729-Gold-Digger-UWr-Delve-Control&p=885827&viewfull=1#post885827 that kind of explains the Wasteland vs Blood Moon thoughts.

But, now I'm wondering why they would think to bring in KGrip when they don't see any permanents.

[DuKeLiO]

Usually some opponents don't side out Abrupt Decay and bring in Krosan Grip because they think they are playing against Miracles.

[Serch]

DEP with the new banlist :frown: