Gold Digger [UWr Delve Control]

[klaus]

Hey peeps,

so Carsten did it again and coined an archetype for us to smash face with.
For those of you who haven't read the related SCG article yet, here you go:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29556_Digging-For-Gold-In-Legacy.html

I gotta admit I called bullshit on his prediction that Dig Through Time & Treasure Cruise (hence DTT & TC) would be format warping, back when they were spoiled. My conversion began when I jammed 2 copies of DTT in my Miracles list some weeks ago. Even though, it didn't actually feel like a revelation, I was like:
http://i1378.photobucket.com/albums/ah103/eofjnvo43nr/dglqr_zps3fbce63f.jpg

After giving Gold Digger a shot, I soon stumbled across a couple of choices that would need to be tweaked to fit my play style, but I felt its mighty potential right from the start. And now I'm like:
http://i1378.photobucket.com/albums/ah103/eofjnvo43nr/dgm76_zpsdb445861.jpg

To make a long story short: here's my current weapon of choice:

CQ:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divning Top

C/A:
4 DTT
3 Jace

REMOVAL:
4 STP
3 Supreme Verdict
1 Council's Judgement
1 EE

COUNTER SUITE:
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Izzet Charm

"FINISH HIM!"
1 Entreat the Angels

LAND:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Plains

SB:
3 Vendilion Clique
2 REB
2 Pyroclasm ------------ (yes, I don't enjoy losing against Aggro)
1 Baneslayer Angel (despite being a naysayer for BSA in the MD, I consider him a valuable SB card, as people will board out STPs agains us)
1 Wear / Tear
3 CB
1 Top (testing this atm)
2 RiP [!] -----------------(the times that you need it most DTT & TC are rather weak anyway: Dredge, Reanimator, other GY-based Combo.decs, Loam.dec (Cage is not good here, and it's not needed against Elves)

Stuff that I changed from Carsten's initial iteration:
Fire/Ice --> Bolt: cheaper + handles bigger threats and is capable of taking out Jaces, I'd actually love to find room for #2, doesn't look like I'll succeed though
Spell Pierce --> Flusterstorm: better at pushing through your own and fighting opposing Delves, better against Combo, also: MD blasts handle Jaces
EE #2 --> Supreme Verdict #2: just better at what EE is used to most of the time
Academy Ruins --> Mountain/Volc#3: with only 20 ana sources, I actually want them to be all colored, plus with only one EE it's not justified
2 Misdirection --> Preordain #2 + Top: in testing I was literally never happy to see Misdirection. Pitching a cantrip also felt meh, as this makes Delve spells considerably weaker, plus more card filtering is gravy for this deck.
SFM + Skull --> 2 EtA: more or less dodges standard creature hate most decks pack and SFM suffers from, plus it's a one-card combo exactly fitting the needs of the archetype by enabling us to close the game in one turn, once we've established full control.


What's your take on this archetype?

---
PS: Honorable mention: Lambert101 posted a list that shares many traits with this one. I started posting in his thread but as my brew evolved further away from the OP, I decided to start ma own thang. Big up for your stuff though Lambert!

[lambert101]

Thanks for the credit. I honestly came to this idea by looking at miracles and said this deck likes to control the stack. I would rather control the board state and that means more and more by killing creatures or attacking the land base for delver decks. If the meta was more combo heavy I might jump on board with your plan. Any help with the board would be awesome as my combo match-ups are terrible.

[klaus]

I'm still very impressed by the raw power of this beast.
Being hooked on UWx Control ever since the beginnings of Landstill, I gotta say this definitely is the most powerful Legacy Control deck I've ever piloted, including all incarnations of Miracles. Of course this is mainly due to DTT & TC, but still..

Some further insights I got over the weekend:

* 5 seems to be the correct number for Delve spells: 6 increases the chance to got them stranded early on quite a bit, plus finding one when you want to is easy with 1000 cantrips
* 3 DTT & 2 TC also feel about right - Gold Digger offers so much card filtering that DTT's CQ aspect isn't actually as crucial, since you'll find what you need anyway, while TC nets you that extra card at a better casting cost. Interestingly enough I also find myself casting DTT during my turn quite frequently.
* very happy with MD Flusterstorm (over Pierce), as pushing through AND countering DTT/TC has become paramount and Flusterstorm simply rocks at this. One of the main arguments in favor of Spell Pierce is its ability to counter Jace, however MD Pyroblasts mitigate this, especially with 1000 cantrips to find them
* very happy with the 1-of Top even though it might seem random - it does work nicely alongside 13 shuffle effects (not counting DTT) and of course supports the EtA kill.
* Changed Preordain #2 to Bolt #2. As mentioned, being able to kill DRS immediately is essential. In the face of Delve.dec's in popularity I expect to see more DRSs too. (as an aside: Scavenging Ooze, Spirit of the Labyrinth & Bojuka Bog will also likely regain popularity)
* still undecided about Mountain VS. Volcanic Island #3

[apple713]

maybe I'm not getting it, why is this deck good? it has great drawing capabilities but it doesn't really do anything with them? 11 counterspells, but nothing like counterbalance to really gain significant advantage. Your threat count is extremely low. if you run into a chains of mephistopheles, or more likely a spirit of the labrynth your hozed....

[Finn]

Yeah, this can't possibly be the final version of this deck. Not only is it ugly (1 Top), but exists solely as a medium for delve cards to power a pure control deck. Treasure Cruise does not fit particularly well in any pure control deck with so many reactive cards. TC is not quite Ancestral Recall. We are all still figuring out how to use it best. Of course Carsten went with what he knows best; we would all do the same. But this ain't it.

It might feel good compared to what has come before it, but that is only because you are not comparing it to all the other decks of today getting huge card advantage from delve and doing better things with that advantage than this deck does. Until these cards get banned, the name of the game is whizzing through your library with a clear goal.

[MrGlantz]

I haven't played these UWx control decks before, but I'd imagine that if you really wanted to abuse Dig Through Time and play an oldschool style list I'd take a lot of inspiration from the Vintage UW Angels decks that placed earlier this year and last year. They're consistent, resilient, and not greedy at all which means you may be less likely to be punished. I don't know if the raw power is quite up to where you want to be, but its a starting point.

Examples:

// Creatures (12)
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Restoration Angel
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth

// Control Spells (15)
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Disenchant
3 Mental Misstep
1 Spell Snare

// Draw Spells (8)
4 Fact or Fiction
1 Brainstorm
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

// Mana (25)
5 Moxen
3 SoLoCrypt
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Karakas
3 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
1 Plains
2 Cavern of Souls

Obviously that's a vintage deck and not a legacy one, but I wouldn't be surprised if the best finishers for a list like this is Cliques and Restos. They're efficient, playable at instant speed, and can close out games quickly when its time. Plus they seem to work well with all the card advantage and ability to quickly filter through the deck.

I guess there is also some merit to playing Spirit of the Labrynth along with "Card Draw" that doesn't get hosed like Dig Through Time, Fact or Fiction, etc. That needs further testing and it may not be worth going down that rabbit hole in all honesty.

[klaus]

For all the nay sayers: just give it shot!

One crucial suggestion while piloting Gold Digger:
Other than with basically any other Control deck, do not play your spells conservatively, instead fire away with what you got. Bolting that Nettle Sentinel, Brainstorming without a fetch out, Counterspelling an opposing Ponder - all these things become viable in the face of DTT & TC. You'll refill your hand sooner and just be able to handle anything they throw at you.
Coming from conservative Control decks that teach you to hold back your spells as a long as possible to max out their impact, I had to learn to be quick on the trigger and just shoot at their semi-relevant stuff too.

@Apple713:
You are right about Gold Digger boasting very few threats. However testing showed, you just don't need more. I don't know any deck out there that's clearly better at finding stuff without actual tutors. The game plan is simple: filter your draws, handle whatever they throw at you, land a Jace, continue doing your thing until they have no board and no cards in hand, cast EtA with triple counter backup, close the game. You'd be surprised too how many games are comfortably won by Jace's ultimate.

I always thought CB + Top was the best way to prevent opponent's from resolving stuff. Well that was before I sat there with FoW, Pyroblast, CS and Flusterstorm in hand and the means to conveniently refill my hand after a counter battle showdown. Someone said it nicely in the Murica Control thread: being able to control the stack has become more important than ever.

@Finn: that lone Top is anything else than random. It's merely card filter #16 and assists the EtA kill as an additional bonus. Anymore Tops would fight over cantrip slots which are dearly needed to support 5 Delve spells. Nevertheless, I'm always happy to see it. Also TC is the closest Legacy will ever get to Ancestral Recall - I guarantee it.

[alphastryk]

(copying my post from the article thread)

I played a version of this in Legacy at Eternal Weekend a few days ago and the shell is just extremely powerful. I tried to get cute in that tournament and splash a 4th color in the board, but the core was really good though. I may write up more when I get a chance.

After some work on Sunday after I bricked out of Vintage to tune the deck to beat UR delver, I wanted to share the list we'd gotten to:


3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Academy Ruins

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Moat

4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Pyroblast
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Treasure Cruise
4 Dig Through Time

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Snapcaster Mage

Sideboard:
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Pyroclasm
1 Blood Mood
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Wear // Tear
1 Hydroblast
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle


Some extra thoughts:

Stoneforge -> Batterskull was acceptable but clunky so I've moved away from it as a win condition.
I don't think you want any Miracles or Tops in the deck, you just want enough finishers to not lose and you need all of your cantrips to fuel your velocity / delve spells.
It definitely feels odd to just jam things out there, but recovering cards is just so easy.
You should never play less than 4 DTT. I'd play 5 or 6 if I could.
The second Cruise became the second Preordain to deal with needing more early cantrips against mana disruption.

[Jizz]

Hello alphastryk,

I like your list and I'd like to discuss some points :

. I find it quite light vs Combo, particularly vs Storm pre and postboard. I know that playing cheap counterspells like flusterstorm or pierce can feel clunky at time in a control deck without cb, but it might be necessary, just for these match ups, while beeing useful vs Stifle.decks. Burn seems also difficult as it is.

. The Moat MD synergies well with baneslayer but I find the card quite weak in the meta : costs 4 and can be countered vs UR Delver ; Elves has now Reclamation sage to answer it ; the printings of council's judgment and Delve spells make the spell weaker. I find Supreme verdict better.

. I love the second plains MD. I would play the 4th island over the 3rd tundra in this case. But aren't 21 lands too heavy ? What about moving the second plains to the sideboard (I considered it in a sfm/verdict build) ? I also think that the ratio 4 DTT/1 TC/2 Preordain/4 Ponder /4 BS is the right one.

. Baneslayer angel instead of Sfm/Batterskull. This is very interesting. It frees needed slots in the main deck, which is very nice, but, while baneslayer is better vs opposing batterskull, stifle, delver, artifact removals, goyf, it's significantly weaker against swords, lili, council's judgment. You also loose the nice interaction between Academy ruins and Batterskull. Sfm is also better vs Combo. But the real question is : is Baneslayer better than batterskull when Jace isn't likely to be our win con ?
Another outcome is to remove 1 Jace for 1 Tnn and keep the sfm package. I've been testing it and it turns out to be very strong.

. As for the sideboard, I think that you need 2 Reb at least. As said above, the combo match up is not easy, especially when you have to take blood moon postboard to deal with boseiju. 3 Cliques are really needed.
I think that Cage is quite bad here, because the advantage it provides vs elves is somewhat neglected by EE. I also hate having Snap md + Cage in the sb (even with 1 of each). With a light sb plan vs Dredge, I chose 2 Surgical in these slots, which can deal with punishing fire/Loam and is better vs Storm/Reanimator.
Pithing needle + Hydroblast is maybe a bit redundant, since Needle main targets are Sneak attack, Karakas, Eye of Ugin, Thespian stage.


EDIT : only 58 cards in your MD

[goodolrock]

3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Academy Ruins

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Moat

4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Pyroblast
3 Counterspell

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Treasure Cruise
4 Dig Through Time

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Snapcaster Mage





This list looks like a spiritual successor to The Deck (http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/The_Deck), circa '96 (baneslayer taking the place of Serra Angel, down to 1 moat, etc).

What do you think? Too much of a reach? IMO it's a better name than Gold Digger (and way better than some of the other names we kicked around - "Moator Boat", "Can You Dig It?" :P)

[klaus]

.
Thanks for your input. Appreciate it!

I like to +1 Jizz on his point about Moat, Flusterstorm and Baneslayer Angel and encourage you to test 2 MD Supreme Verdicts & 2 EtAs.

While Verdict seems like a no-brainer to me, I admit that EtA appears random/clunky at first sight.
Let's compare it to Baneslayer though:
Pros:
* Life link (feel free to add more)

Cons:
* very fragile: dies to STP is enough for me to exclude her tbh (I'd go with TNN despite its lower impact)
* not a wall when you're fighting Swarm Aggro
* takes several turns to close a game
* casting cost (see below)

ETA:
Pros:
* virtually dodges spot removal
* wall against Swarm Aggro
* usually takes one turn to close a game
* better against Planeswalkers (Jace bounces BSA all day and Lili just kills her)
* casting cost: can be cast for 3 if need be

Cons:
* miracle-dependent - however timing it with all those cantrips is a walk in the park
* dies to EE (though STP, CJ and Lili are much wider spread)

[alphastryk]

Appreciate the input guys. I did leave out 2 Spell Pierce that are maindeck, which I've now fixed. sorry for any confusion there.

As I noted above, this is tuned to beat the UR Delver / Cruise deck which was so prevalent at Eternal Weekend. Having a lifelink guy was incredible relevant for that.

While it may seem like Baneslayer is easy to kill, that's actually only true for white decks and Liliana decks - most of which have limited other answers. (Bug Delver for example has exactly 2 answers in its Lilis). The white decks also tend to be really soft to Jace - and this deck is an even better Jace deck than Miracles. Having a man with lifelink is really helpful against red delver decks & other aggro too, allowing you to get out of low life situations or even race.

If your game plan is working, you will never need to cast BSA without the ability to protect it from removal. Opposing decks will rarely if ever resolve planeswalkers against you given all the counterspells.

The list is definitely weak to combo though. I had tried splashing Slaughter Games for that in Legacy champs, but I think the 4th color splash is a suspect solution and it still doesn't help you close out games.

The plan against swarm aggro is to quickly resolve Moat which many of them can never get past. This probably will not work against elves, I have not had a chance to test that yet.

Swapping the artifact grave hate for 2 Surgicals seems fine, this list is definitely weak to things like Loam / PFire and that would help.

It definitely does look like 'The Deck' from 96/97 and we were jokingly calling this list 'The Deck v2' in testing.

[klaus]

Minor update:
I love how basically everyone I meet online underestimates this archetype and the amount of rage quitters is quite high as well :)

[goodolrock]

Tested alphastryk's list a little last night/this morning online. A few observations:

matchups: dredge, stoneblade, rug delver, goblins, burn, ur delver

Dredge was pretty miserable - I feel like an E tutor would go a long way in the side, given how many side options are art/enc. I might try RiP over crypt, siding out some of the delve. With all the cantripping, I can get to 8 lands pretty easily. Plus in matches where you want RiP it seems like it's worth the sacrifice.

Goblins - resolved a moat each game. Would have been straight up GG, but he had kiki-jiki with goblin sharpshooter & the goblin that can bolt you every turn. Also, he had Krenko and we found out MTGO has a hard cap on the number of permanents you're allowed to have on the board (looked like somewhere between 100 and 200, didn't count. I'm assuming it was 128.) - he filled up on tokens and couldn't kiki jiki anymore. :D

Stoneblade - Moat answered batterskull & TNN, I was able to ignore his traditional threats and save countermagic for locking him out. Had the option to kill with either baneslayer or jace.

Rug delver - would have been fine, but i played a StP into a spell pierce when I didn't need to and got beat over the head with a 'goyf. oops.

Burn - Took some bolts to the face, countered the important things, got free lands off of guides before StPing, then I resolved Moat and Baneslayer. Easy mode.

UR delver - I did like the Moat - i was able to draw it each game, so I was able to concentrate StPs on delvers. Pyroclasm (supreme verdict, to a lesser extent) went a long way as well. Still, went down to low life each game. Almost lost the match (might have, still - opponent lost to time with 12 min still on my clock).

I've got it in my MTGO library as "The Deck"; I think that's the name I'm going to go with, hopefully it (or some permutation) sticks.

[Zllig]

This is looking pretty powerful, can't wait to try it out on Friday. I'm not sold on Baneslayer Angel since she can be answered pretty easily, I'll probably just run Keranos instead since I'm biased on how good he is.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/249095#online
Is what I was consider to be the modern form of this deck, I wonder if there is merit in switching over to the Elixir/Memory's Journey win con where we just loop the best cards as our deck and use Cruise and Dig to exile the bricks. Probably won't work, but it might be worth looking at. Plus if we splash for Memory's Journey we can get that Explosive up to 4.

I sure wish I had a Moat now, I might fit a Wear//Tear into the maindeck somewhere to really turn this into The Deck.

[alphastryk]

Here's what I'm going to be sleeving up for my local weekly tomorrow, will let you guys know how that goes.


3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Academy Ruins

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Moat

4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Pyroblast
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Treasure Cruise
4 Dig Through Time

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Snapcaster Mage

Sideboard:
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Pyroclasm
1 Blood Mood
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Wear // Tear
1 Hydroblast
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle

[klaus]

..looking forward!

[alphastryk]

Unfortunately I don't feel like I learned much this week - really strange metagame (mud, multiple 4x Chains of Mephistopheles decks, mirror, some guy I've never seen before on an awful RG brew) and I only played against one 'internet' deck.

I lost a close round 1 to Deathblade when I couldn't find a second white source to pin his TNN behind the Moat. Felt favored the whole match, would need to play a lot more to know if I could have done things differently to win this match.
I won the pseudo-mirror in round 2 by drawing less blanks in game 1.

I lost round 3 to quad Chains of Mephistopheles pox (seemed completely unwinnable)

I then got to make myself feel better by beating up on a bad RG orcish lumberjack brew.

I'll be sticking with this list most likely for the GenCon trials at GP Nashville this weekend. Will post another update after that.

[klaus]

Unfortunately I don't feel like I learned much this week - really strange metagame (mud, multiple 4x Chains of Mephistopheles decks, mirror, some guy I've never seen before on an awful RG brew) and I only played against one 'internet' deck.

I lost a close round 1 to Deathblade when I couldn't find a second white source to pin his TNN behind the Moat. Felt favored the whole match, would need to play a lot more to know if I could have done things differently to win this match.
I won the pseudo-mirror in round 2 by drawing less blanks in game 1.

I lost round 3 to quad Chains of Mephistopheles pox (seemed completely unwinnable)

I then got to make myself feel better by beating up on a bad RG orcish lumberjack brew.

I'll be sticking with this list most likely for the GenCon trials at GP Nashville this weekend. Will post another update after that.

Where do you play?
I am on mws.games currently and 50% of my opponents with "competitive/serious" in the game description actually bring tier decks + are rather skilled.

[Tcpdump]

Hi, i'm play a similar version, with walker, not the best but thought may aport with fresh ideas:
walker.dec, Built with Decked Builder
http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/14591


Enviado desde mi iPhone con Tapatalk

[klaus]

Hi, i'm play a similar version, with walker, not the best but thought may aport with fresh ideas:
walker.dec, Built with Decked Builder
http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/14591


Hey Tcpdump, thanks for the input!

Our approaches are quite similar indeed! Basically just:
you: Elsepeth + Ajani + Helix
VS
me: Eta + Top

I've tested Elspeth as a finisher before and have to say, she does a fine job for sure and certainly is a valid replacement for EtA. I'm not sure about Ajani though, as I'd most certainly rather draw Jace or Elspeth most of the time - well probably always except against Burn.dec
Helix seems very nice in this deck too. I think there are just two caveats:
CMC2 + 2x off-color, which means that they'll tend to get stranded in your hand during the early game, which is when you actually want to fill your graveyard. I prefer Bolts, as they are way easier to cast, and thus handle DRShamans and other pesky hatebears more reliably and sooner and allow you to keep up additional mana for Counterspells at the same time.
I do admit though that the lifegain is indeed a super beneficial factor. Other than Miracles, we cannot assemble CB+Top to lock out burn spells and there are very few games that I manage to close with a two digit life score.

[Tcpdump]

Yesterday i test the deck v/s show tell 2-1, 2-1 elves, 2-0 pox, 2-1 belcher, and 2-1 oath vintage xD...
So, celestial colonnade sucks, i change for 1 fetch and academy ruins...
The helix is gone for 2 fire//ice and 1 engineered Explosives.
Now i play the deck on a tournament, 18 pers aprox, this is the list:

walker.dec, Built with Decked Builder
http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/14739

Mi meta is random, 3 ur delver, 2/1 burn, 2/1 jund, 2/1 miracles, 3 blade+splatch, 2 elves.. The sb i think use is like a miracle deck, 3 clique 3 reb, 2 sforge+ batterskull, 1 disenchant, 2 relic progenitus, 1 baneslayer


Enviado desde mi iPhone con Tapatalk

[Megadeus]

Watched The Deck v.2 in action. Good Lord. It's insane

[alphastryk]

Where do you play?
I am on mws.games currently and 50% of my opponents with "competitive/serious" in the game description actually bring tier decks + are rather skilled.

That was my local store here in Atlanta. Unfortunately our scene is starting to die out. It's usually more normal decks, not sure what was going on - maybe I just played against all the strange stuff?

Fortunately, I was just able to play in a side event at GP Nashville (~45 players) & won for a full ride to GenCon (badge, hotel, airfare) + a box. I went 4-0-2 / 8-1 in the swiss, then 3-0 / 6-2 in top8.

This is the list I played (pretty close to what I've been on):



3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Academy Ruins

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Moat

4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Pyroblast
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Treasure Cruise
4 Dig Through Time

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Snapcaster Mage

Sideboard:
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Pyroclasm
1 Blood Mood
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Wear // Tear
1 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle


Round 1 - ANT
--
Game 1 - I have too many counterspells for him to go off quickly so I have time to get Jace going and I'm able to Misdirection his Cabal Therapy back at him to keep my Counterspell and I stopped him when he went for it with Jace at 13.

- 1 StP, -1 Moat, -1 Baneslayer, -1 Academy Ruins, -1 EE, -2 Pyroblast | +2 Flusterstorm, +3 Vendilion Clique, +2 Surgical Extraction

Game 2 - My opponent gets stuck on only Tropical Island after playing a Xantid Swarm that I Forced and burning 2 Petals for discard spells. He Probed and had to make awkward decisions after seeing my Surgical. Clique starts to get in there and Jace shows up to fateseal him off of mana.

1-0 / 2-0

Round 2 - UWR Delver
--
Game 1 - He gets me a bit low on life but doesn't have a way past my Moat, and I kill / counter every Delver he plays and just sit on Jace until he has had enough.

-1 Misdirection, -1 Treasure Cruise, -1 Jace, -1 Force of Will | +2 Pyroclasm, +1 Supreme Verdict, +1 Wear // Tear, +1 REB

Game 2 - I kill every threat he presents (recurring EE a few times) - he never sees a Wasteland. I start to lock him down with a Jace after my 3rd Dig, and I stabilize with Baneslayer after being bolted a few times. I'm starting to doubt how much I actually need Wear // Tear in this deck - his equipment doesn't matter if I can lock him behind the Moat.

2-0 / 4-0

Round 3 - Death & Taxes (Someone I know from Atlanta, so I know what he's on)
--
Game 1 - I Pierce his turn 1 Vial, but draw pretty poorly and while I kill a lot of his guys the game gets to a situation where he is tapped out with a Batterskull & Germ and an unequipped SOFI. I main phases Dig but take the wrong land and am unable to cast my Jace - punted pretty bad :( The then SOFI-equipped Batterskull kills me two turns later when I can't find a plow or EE.

-1 Misdirection, -2 Pyroblast, -1 Treasure Cruise, -1 Force of WIll | + 2 Pyroclasm, +1 Supreme Verdict, +1 Wear // Tear, +1 Pithing Needle

Game 2 - I Pierce his vial again and am able to kill all of his threats and lock things up with a Moat and eventually Jace which takes the game. He helps me out by not porting me off of hardcast FoW when he wanted to play a spell a few times.

-1 Spell Pierce | +1 Force of Will | I know he doesn't have Cataclysm and Keeping Vial off the table is critical.

Game 3 - I FoW his tuen 1 Vial and he gets stuck on only 2 lands for quite a while. I'm able to assemble Moat + Jace again and take the game.

3-0 / 6-1

Round 4 - BUG Delver
--
Game 1 - His hand is threat-dense but light on interaction, so I'm able to do a lot of work on his threats with Pyroblast for Devler, EE for 2 Deathrites, and StP and Moat for his Goyfs. Jace eventually goes the distance.

-1 Dig Through Time, -1 Force of Will, -1 Jace, -2 Misdirection | +1 Supreme Verdict, +2 Pyroclasm, +1 REB, +1 Blood Moon , +1 Flusterstorm | He's been near me for a few rounds and I Haven't seen Hymn, just Thoughtseize so I'm fine cutting Misdirection.

Game 2 - His hand is slow, with a turn 1 Ponder and no threat, so I'm able to get my engine going before he can do much. Verdict & EE mop up his guys and I REB his Treasure Cruise to reload. Eventually he taps low and I am able to slam Blood Moon. After that, winning is a formality - he concedes when I cast Jace.

4-0 / 8-1

With only 3 Undefeated players, I'm able to draw into Top 8.

Round 5 - ID

4-0-1 / 8-1

Round 6 - ID

4-0-2 / 8-1

QuarterFinals - D&T (same player as swiss)
--
Game 1 is super awkward after he mulligans to 5 on the play - he doesn't have more than one land but he does have a vial and draws 3 Revokers to keep doing an awkward dance with my EE at 1 and my Jace. I end up burning StP trying to get through the revokers a few times, landing Moat in the meantime. He's still stuck on one land, but eventually ticks Vial up to 2 and I'm able to get out of Revoker hell with an StP and fateseal him off lands and then flying creatures.

same boarding as before

Game 2 I'm able to keep wiping the board of his guys after EEing away a Mother and a Vial. Recurring that EE a few times as well as a timely Pyroclasm cleaned up more threats and eventually Baneslayer showed up to start closing things down. Jace helped keep answers off the top a few turns later.

5-0-2 / 10-1

SemiFinals - BUG Delver
--
Game 1 - he has 3 or 4 1-mana threats and after I brick two cantrips and am forced to play an EE that I can't pop right away into his Decay, I'm unable to keep up.
-1 Force of Will, -1 Treasure Cruise, -1 Spell Pierce, -1 Jace | +1 Blood Moon, +2 Pyroclasm, +1 Supreme Verdict, +1 REB

Game 2 - I'm able to answer his early threats and he is entirely unprepared for my Blood Moon. His early Null Rod does nothing as I never seen an Explosives. He wasn't the only one to think I was on Miracles though - nobody quite knows what to make of this deck yet.

Game 3 - He never sees a delver, and I'm able to answer all 4 DRSs he plays as wel as the first Goyf. I'm able to resolve a Moon that gets Decayed (sweet, he left them in after last game - there are basically no other targets at all). We play draw go for a few turns, until He Hymns me with 4 cards in hand. I hardcast Misdirection in response. (I have better info from here thanks to teammate haganbmj's play-by-play on our FB group) - "That's really good". He casts a Clique in response which I Counterspell. Hymn resolves, leaving him with just one card. I untap and play Moat. He plays a Goyf, I EoT Dig for Ponder and Jace. Draw for turn, ponder, shuffle some bricks, draw a REB. Play Jace, bounce his Goyf in case he has a Golgari Charm to allow his goyf to kill my Jace (My hand is REB, Baneslayer, Verdict so I can't stop it). Opponent draws ans casts Cruise - I REB. I draw Pyroblast and brainstorm with Jace trying to find another counterspell. I play Baneslayer. He Hymns me for blast and a fetch. I alternate brainstorming with Jace and Fatesealing him, but it appears he has no outs. Baneslayer takes him down. He shows me a hand of Daze & Abrupt Decays (brick city)

6-0-2 / 12-2

Finals - Elves (haganbmj)
--
There was no good way to split the prizes for this event so we decide to play it out.

Game 1 - I keep 6 cards without a 3rd land but 2 cantrips. Unfortunately, I don't get there and instead manage to see both Pyroblast and the Misdirection. Ugh. I still manage to land a Moat to contain his Wren's Run Packmaster, but he has the Reclamation Sage to kill it and finishes me off.

-2 Pyroblast, -1 Misdirection, -1 Treasure Cruise, -1 Plains | +2 Pyroclasm, +1 Supreme Verdict, +2 Flusterstorm | I really just want to fight on the stack and having Flusterstorm helps against Zenith and Natural Order.

Game 2 - My opening 7 has StP and EE to slow him down a while, and I draw a verdict to keep things going until Jace takes over. I make a sequencing mistake and lose my Moat to Sage for no reason, but it's too late for it to matter.

Game 3 - My opening is just all removal and cantrips, so I'm able to get to 5 mana relatively unmolested. Jace and Moat start to take over but Baneslayer brings it home.

7-0-2 / 14-3

I just got home and it's super late so if there are any errors I apologize. Will be checking back tomorrow - deck felt really solid all day and my opponents didn't seem to know what I was doing or how to fight it.

[klaus]

@Alphastryk:
Go Go GoldDigger! Congratz on this awesome performance! Taking down this sweet price by going undefeated..wow!
Glad to see Baneslayer performed well for you. Maybe I'll have to give her a shot one day.
Keep us posted about your GP endeavours. I'll certainly be rooting for you.

[Higgs]

I'll go ahead and the question, what is the selling point of Gold Digger compared to Miracles, what match-ups does it actually improve?

[klaus]

Fair point.
For me coming from Miracles, which has been my go-to deck ever since the printing of Terminus & EtA, there are a couple of benefits that should be obvious even on paper. Then there are quite a few subtleties that are harder to pinpoint and would require more time to explain than I have available while at work :wink:

The no-brainers:

* not susceptible to Decay - this is a big plus as Decay runs rampant all over the meta still and relying on CB VS. Combo.dec isn't safe anymore now that every one packs SB decays. In fact Combo has been a clearly favorable MU with 4 REB effects, 3 CS, 3 Flusterstorms, 4 FOWs, and 3 Cliques and plenty of means to refill on hates cards in the 75

* More cantrips / filtering allow for silver bullets, eg. MD Pyroblast, which is harder to "circumvent" for Miracles

* way more C/A! This is probably the key benefit here, which also tips the MU slightly in GoldDiggers favor. I'm happy to test against competent Miracles pilots to prove that point :cool:
Every Miracles player who dismisses even testing a rough draft of GoldDigger has no idea what it feels like to cast multiple Ancestral Recalls per game.

As for the subtle advantages, I'd suggest give it shot and see for yourself.
Happy to discuss this topic further though as both decks are very closely related.

[TheArchitect]

I'll go ahead and the question, what is the selling point of Gold Digger compared to Miracles, what match-ups does it actually improve?

As someone who normally plays miracles, but has given this a try, the biggest upside is you swap all the cards that situational, and clunky sources of card advantage (balance and terminus) for raw card advantage (Dig/TC). You give up raw power, for consistency. Your cards are almost never useless. Balance is bad when your behind on board, and terminus is bad when its stuck in your hand or drawn at the wrong time. Dig and cruise are basically always good to see after turn 3.

[Kaslan]

Hey, I have been a long time miracle player and wanted to try out another deck. I love the concept of this deck but I was fearful of 2 things
1. counterbalance
2. chalice of the void

So I decided change the colors too BUG

here is my list :

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 preordain

2 flusterstorm
2 spell pierce
3 counterspell
4 force of will
4 abrupt decay
4 innocent blood

2 Kiora, the crashing wave
2 jace, the mind sculptor

1 treasure cruise
4 dig through time

1 bayou
3 tropical island
3 underground sea
3 islands
1 swamp
4 misty rainforest
4 polluted delta
1 verdant catacombs


The sideboard is a mess:
2 duress
1 thragtusk
3 baleful strix
2 pithing needle
3 aether spell bomb

I do not own Pernicious Deed, wastelands, Life from the Loam, toxic deluge or Intuition on MTGO (all cards I would have loved to play in this deck).

I play play tested this version online.

I went 3-1 in today's daily betting :
-Burn 2-0
-ESPER death blade 2-1 ( lost game one because I was mana short )
-Omnitell 2-1 ( lost game 2 because of a misplay otherwise I would have won game)
-Burn 2-1

I was amazed by the ease in witch this deck can chain the dig through times and bury your opponent in card advantage.
My big problem with this deck is finding a kill condition that kills fast and is not affected by my own innocent bloods.

If you have any suggestions to make this version of the deck better please let me know.

Cheers.

[Keenco]

First of all, I wanna say thx for posting this sweet list as I've been looking for a control deck that I can actually put together and doesn't have to deal with Top/Miracles.

I'm going to try the following:

Instant (26)
4x Brainstorm
3x Counterspell
3x Dig Through Time
2x Enlightened Tutor
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Pyroblast
4x Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery (7)
3x Ponder
2x Supreme Verdict
2x Treasure Cruise

Artifact (1)
1x Engineered Explosives

Enchantment (1)
1x Assemble the Legion

Creature (1)
1x Keranos, God of Storms

Planeswalker (4)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Land (20)
1x Arid Mesa
4x Flooded Strand
3x Island
1x Mountain
2x Plains
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island

Sideboard (15)
1x Blood Moon
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Enlightened Tutor
2x Flusterstorm
1x Helm of Obedience
1x Pithing Needle
2x Pyroclasm
1x Rest in Peace
1x Supreme Verdict
2x Wear / Tear
1x Wurmcoil Engine

I guess what different with my list is I have included Enlightened Tutor (2 MB, 1 SB) for searching win cons - Keranos, God of Storms, Assemble the Legion. Also, able to look for EE as a panic button seems to be OK.

The SB have different Enchantments and Artifacts that help MU that needs silver bullet(s). Something I wanna to point out is I've also added Helm combo for those people who bring in RIP to fight our delve cards (reverse Helm for the win?).

Question 1: How do you people feel between DTT and TC ratio? So far I feel like I wanna cast DTT more than TC most of the time. With all the cantrips I tend to know the next couple of cards and in cases I only want 1 of the next 3 cards, DTT feels much better as it filters and can put fresh cards on top of the deck.

Question 2: Is 20 lands too little? I feel like going up to 21 or 22 but don't know what to cut... Maybe a bot or STP?

[lambert101]

@Keenco your deck looks something similar to what I have been brewing with.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28694-Murica-Control

[Keenco]

@Keenco your deck looks something similar to what I have been brewing with.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28694-Murica-Control


Oh, so it seems someone already thought of what I plan to try. How do you like it?

[Survex]

I thought I would contribute a unique idea for people to try out. I've been a landstill player forever and have had a lot of success running UWR landstill for the longest time. I plan on playing it at the GP, anyways here's the list. I'll explain a few choices afterwards.

Lands:
2x Island
1x Plains
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
1x Arid Mesa
1x Faerie Conclave
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Academy Ruins
4x Tundra
4x Volcanic Island

Spells:
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
2x Counterspell
2x Spell Pierce
3x Spell Snare (This card is bonkers)
3x Standstill
2x Dig Through Time
3x Jace, The Mindsculptor
3x Lightning Bolt
1x Pyroblast
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Engineered Explosives

Creatures:
3x Snapcaster Mage

Sideboard:
4x Relic of Progenitus
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Hydroblast
1x Wear/Tear
1x Flusterstorm
3x Pyroclasm

Sideboard can be whatever you ideally want, it is a work in progress and can be tinkered heavily. The only thing I would not remove are the 3x Pyroclasm, 4x Relic and 2x Surgical can be overkill, I was considering cutting a Relic for another Flusterstorm..

As for the maindeck, I may go back to 1x Nevinyrral's Disk and 1x EE. 2x EE has been fine though mainly for TNN and Trinisphere/Chalice effects. Disk has been absurd versus random chalice/trinisphere decks.

I used to also run 2x Wasteland in the maindeck, but I've been finding that Wasteland has been losing it's value in terms of impact. Yeah it can randomly get you wins, but in my experience just not running it in terms for more consistent mana and opening hand draws has been way better. I don't even really want wasteland vs lands or jund depths. The gameplan after Game 1 makes the matchup impossible for them to win.

The other thing that people might ask is why standstill? I just have an affinity for the card, honestly. It's been great every time I've casted it. People are playing less wastelands and your factories are never opposed. I believe after playing the deck that 3 Standstill and 2 Digs has been a good number of card advantage cards along with 3x Jace. The deck is a pure control deck that has very good game vs miracles. I've tested the original deck that Karsten Kotter posted, and the amount of digs and treasure cruises felt pretty bad, a lot of awkward opening hands.

I played in a small forty man event here in Canada. 6 Rounds. Happened a bit ago, writing the quick report by memory.

Round 1: Cloudpost MUD 1-2 0-1
G1: On the draw, get wrecked by not expecting turn 1 chalice and turn 2 trinisphere followed up by a lodestone golem.
G2: Spell Snare hitting Chalice and Grim Monoliths was pretty insane, Jace soon took over the game after a few Bolts/Swords on a pair of Lodestone Golems.
G3: On the draw, he has turn 2 chalice which get's spell snared. I get into an awkward position I have to let a lightning greaves resolve. I get to remove a lot of Goblin Welders and Lodestone Golems that attempt to get equipped. I try to secure the win by slamming down a Jace and it ended up biting me. He plays a Goblin Welder through a Cavern of Souls which I have enough mana to either counterspell a card or play a single removal spell. The only way I lose is if he lands two creatures this turn. So I remove the welder with a bolt, and he has Kuldotha Forgemaster to follow up and I don't have enough mana to counterspell it. Had I not slammed down Jace I could have done both and followed up with Jace the following turn. Greed is not always good, and he tutors out a Sundering Titan for the win.

Round 2: UR Delver 2-0 1-1 (This matchup is interesting, after game 1, I feel like Pyroclasm is a house. Game 1 does feel disadvantaged though)
G1: Sigh of relief when he goes turn 1 ponder. My two spell snares match up perfectly with his double Pyromancer draw and Jace ends up taking the game.
G2: He starts off with a delver which I remove, and brainstorm fetches turn 2. Turn 3 he plays Delver + Pyromancer which get pyroclasm'd away for the blowout. He treasure cruises, but can't keep up with dig through time, dies to Manlands + Snapcaster Bolt.

Round 3: BUG Delver (Stifle version) 2-0 2-1
G1: The first game he starts off with Delver and it gets removed on my second turn to play around daze. His Tarmogoyf get's spell snared and Jace takes over the game.
G2: Probably the most insane game of magic I've played in a while, least in a tournament. He starts off with a Delver with gets removed. On turn 4 he plays a Tarmogoyf which my hand had no answer to or draw card effects. I decide to Force of Will it, he Forces back. I force once again. He forces back. (He revealed a daze for his initial Delver and pitched one to the force of will). His Tarmogoyf resolves, and then I'm left with a Jace in hand with 3 land. I obviously spike the land off the top like a master and his last card in hand is clearly a daze. His board was a tarmogoyf and he untaps into DRS to go along with it. I take two huge hits and his next tarmogoyf attack would be lethal. I top deck into a snapcaster to block goyf and remove DRS (because it would be lethal in two activations). The next drawstep is Jace, bounce the goyf. Replays goyf. I draw a swords to plowshares like a sack remove goyf and take over the game with Jace. The counter war and his last card in hand being the daze after I saw he removed one with the forces kinda killed my spirits that game and I magically luck sacked with the top of my deck.

Round 4: UR Delver 1-1 2-1-1
G1: My opponent this round is someone who is fairly slow at playing(thinks about every play a lot), but very methodical and skilled. He destroys me game 1 super fast with the double swiftspear plus probe and bolt draw.
G2: Game two is a slugfest where he does nothing forever and just cantrips all game. It's like turn 8 and he finally decides to go for a Pyromancer. I end up Spell Snaring which gets Pyroblasted. I forget what exactly happened, but I lost the counter war. I'm down to two cards in hand to his two cards + Pyromancer. I remove the Pyromancer, but he gets a token out of the deal and resolves another Pyromancer. Here comes the odd part. His board was Pyromancer, Swiftspear and Delver to my 2 Mishra's Factories. I really needed a pyroclasm that game at any point for a win, and all he needed for three turns running was a delver flip. He kept drawing his board cards in forms of Null Rod's and lands which is ironic because of the flavor text, it literally does nothing against my deck as I actually board out EE in the matchup. I draw a dig through time which resolves and get the pyroclasm + snapcaster to win the game. Ends as a draw, due to the time.

Round 5: Elves 2-0 3-1-1
G1: I literally have the snapcaster + removal and Jace draw. He scoops after Jace resolves to his board of three land.
G2: Pyroclasm's and a few swords to plowshares later, he scoops in frustration.

Round 6: Elves 2-0 4-1-1
G1: Super pumped to play against elves, I think the matchup is a mega bye. Removal and EE does mega work. He scoops.
G2: Is a little closer because he has Cabal Therapy and Reclamation Sage for my EE. Then he made an ODD play of Surgical Extracting my Brainstorm after I already casted one? I don't get why people would bring in Surgical against this style of Control deck, it does nothing and why target brainstorm? Game ended up taking a while, but Jace won the game.

Top 8:
Quarterfinals: Deathblade 2-1 5-1-1
G1: I keep a loose hand with 4 land, Jace, Spell Snare, Swords to plowshares. I get my Jace taken by turn 1 thoughtseize and draw about 4 consecutive lands. He resolve true name and it went all the way for a touchdown.
G2: He mulled to five, but still made it a game by cantripping his way to a treasure cruise, but got burried by Jace.
G3: He kept an aggressive wasteland draw, his lands were double wasteland, karakas and underground sea. My deck runs 24 lands and is super reactive, I can just sit on my fetches for a while if he does nothing. He did nothing but cantrip and never found a second blue source. Didn't end up being a game. He died to Jace.

Semifinals: BUG Delver 2-1 6-1-1
G1: He was on the play, went turn 1 DRS and Turn 2: TNN. GG. My hand wasn't suited to beat that. Probably should have mulled.
G2: My turn 1 removal spell into Turn 2 standstill won the game. He died to manlands and getting buried by card advantage.
G3: My opener was Force, Force, Brainstorm, Fetchland, Spell Snare, Pyroblast, Counterspell. I brainstormed into a land and two more forces. I got stuck on a 3 land for a while and ended up with a pyroblast and jace in the quad force hand. Pitched Spell Snare to a discard. He probed me and his face was kinda hilarious. He did nothing for a long time. Eventually casted TNN which managed to stick on an empty board, but after casting a few thoughtseizes and fetches he was already at a lower life total where my Mishra's Factories would race TNN. I freely cast Jace and plus it up to five and just ride the Jace and Mishra's Factories to victory.

Finals: UR Delver 2-1 7-1-1
G1: Classic get totally smashed by their insane Swiftspear draw. That card is insane in multiples.
G2: Pyroclasm + Jace wins the game.
G3: He goes turn 1 Delver. I untap pass. He flips, attacks for three. Turn 2, another Delver. My Turn 2 I play another land and pass. He plays a pyromancer and has another land untapped. I attempt to bolt a delver which he spell pierces. I take another big hit. I untap and casually resolve the pyroclasm that I had since the opening hand, bolt was a bait spell. It wins the game. Dig Through time later, he never gets to resolve anything.

The report sucks, but all in all the deck performed like a champ. I won every game I resolved a Dig Through Time. I never mentioned it much, but the card was actually bonkers, I should probably play three, but the numbers are pretty tuned, I wouldn't know what to cut. I also forgot to mention, during the event I played two Wastelands instead of 1x Island and 1x Plains. Wasteland was pretty useless except for the MUD games. Funny to say, but I actually boarded out Wasteland a few times vs UR delver because I didn't know what cards to cut and seemed to work out very well (Probably super incorrect, but logically made sense).

Also some might ask why 1x Plains and not 1x Mountain. I want to have outs G1 vs Blood Moon effects. It also leaves me open to play Supreme Verdict in the board or moat. Just gives me flexibility that I like. White has a lot of nice SB options that I'm currently not taking advantage of. I was also considering a Council's Judgment somewhere in the 75 (but it's so slow and bad vs UR delver which is rampant).

One card I'd like to talk about is Spell Snare, that card is so good that I feel like it's criminally underplayed in blue decks. It has plenty of targets in essentially every deck and can succesfully counter SFM from many decks. For one mana it does so much. It catches a lot of spells when you're on the draw. It's so easy to catchup on tempo once you snare their 2 drop and untap remove what they resolved on turn 1, etc. I think the card is only super dead vs Sneak and Show. Just try it out and see how it performs.

[klaus]

Hi Survex!
formerly avid Landstill player here ;)
Though I appreciate your input, going down the Standstill route ultimately means derailing the thread. Happy to discuss this via PM though.
In brief: Disk is too slow in today's meta & Supreme Verdict is a no-brainer for any Landstill deck imo.
-

On a different note:
Top has been insane for me, despite not pumping the gy, it finds the stuff that does and much more.

Also: I love rocking a non-decayable MD! (EtA tokens don't count)

[jedi_gof]

Klaus, care to share your latest list?

I am considering investing in a moat as this might be what i was looking for in terms of a new deck to play for a while.
Im kinda burnt out on my beloved Death Blade and Elves decks, to a point where im considering abandoning the MTG ship for good.

[klaus]

@jedi_gof

I just updated the OP with my current list.
As for Moat - I can see its benefits, but don't think it's worth the $, as I much rather just get rid of creatures than possibly lock them out of the game.
Remember that Moat will more often than not fall prey to Spell Pierce and other Counterspells, while Supreme Verdict will simply not care about those and just wipe the board like a honey badger tornado. Plus it nets you another gy card & pitches to FoW :-P

[apple713]

@jedi_gof

I just updated the OP with my current list.
As for Moat - I can see its benefits, but don't think it's worth the $, as I much rather just get rid of creatures than possibly lock them out of the game.
Remember that Moat will more often than not fall prey to Spell Pierce and other Counterspells, while Supreme Verdict will simply not care about those and just wipe the board like a honey badger tornado. Plus it nets you another gy card & pitches to FoW :-P

maybe 2 years ago you could have made the argument that moat is too expensive. now its the same as a tundra or blue dual, and certainly less than underground sea. Legacy players do not typically have money constraints. You would never say, I'm running this shock land because i duals arnt worth the $, you would be ridiculed on these forums.

moat is a great card that is under used right now.

[alphastryk]

The pros of this deck over miracles:
- consistency without relying on a single card
- no blanks to draw (miracles in hand, cb when behind on board, etc)
- blanks opponent's removal
- designed to have very good delver matchups
- favored in blue control mirrors

cons
- weaker combo matchups (although not as much as I expected)
- weaker fair non-blue matchups (jund, junk, etc)
- weaker to things like Chalice of the Void

This feels more like a true control deck than has existed in Legacy that I can remember. I would strongly suggest the list I'm on - play it before making changes - it doesn't feel like anything that's been in legacy for at least 10 years.

Moat is amazing because you only need to resolve it once and it blanks most men forever. Verdict allows your opponent to pressure you with one or two men until you are forced to use your wrath, then they can refill.

I'm debating whether I actually need the Wear // Tear and Pithing Needle in the board - I've brought them in a lot but never had situations they were good, even when I saw them - always shuffled away or not chosen off of Dig.

[klaus]

I'm debating whether I actually need the Wear // Tear and Pithing Needle in the board - I've brought them in a lot but never had situations they were good, even when I saw them - always shuffled away or not chosen off of Dig.

I see where you're coming from.
The main reasons why I'm still on 2 Wear/Tear in the SB:
* Choke
* Chalice
* Vial
* Rest in Peace
* SoFai / Batterskull (obv. you need to time it well)
* CB

Though I have to admit that EE handles all of the above sans Batterskull. CB is even handled smoother and other permanents can be removed at the same time.

Needle is indeed not really needed, and it feels nice to still be blanking removal post-board.

[alphastryk]

Choke is the only one there I'm even mildly worried about - Moat answers Batterskull & any other equipment pretty well already, and EE and counterspells handle Vial most of the time. CB you can usually answer on the stack or with EE, and I'm not too worried to begin with - the Miracles matchup is good enough that it doesn't matter.

I'm leaning towards cutting both of them but I'm not even sure what else I need in the board.

I wasn't planning on going to GP New Jersey, but this deck is good enough that I'm seriously considering it now.

[klaus]

@Alphastryk:

All vaild points.
If you're tuning this for the next GP make sure to meta your SB slots. I'm sure it's a tricky topic.
Be prepared to face a considerably increased amount of delve-mechanic hate:
RiPs/Relics, Leylines (have been facing them online recently), plus hate specifically targeted the UR elefant in the room that we also suffer from: an increased amount of Chalice decks.
Luckily this development will also stifle decks that can be tough for us: PunishingXYZ, and Loam decks in general.

[Kaslan]

Not sure if the BUG version of this deck fits in the thread but I want 3-1 again on MTGO.
MU:
2-0 vs BUG Delver
2-1 vs OmniShow
2-0 vs MUD
1-2 vs UWR delver (in game 3 I had all for Dig's in my hand. Normally it's an easy MU)

[exallium]

This is actually one of the more interesting things to come out of the delve cards that I've seen. I'll be keeping a close eye on this... Unfortunately there's no way I'm buying Misdirection online until there's a reprint.

[goodolrock]

Choke is the only one there I'm even mildly worried about - Moat answers Batterskull & any other equipment pretty well already, and EE and counterspells handle Vial most of the time. CB you can usually answer on the stack or with EE, and I'm not too worried to begin with - the Miracles matchup is good enough that it doesn't matter.

I'm leaning towards cutting both of them but I'm not even sure what else I need in the board.

I wasn't planning on going to GP New Jersey, but this deck is good enough that I'm seriously considering it now.

I've had EE pithing needled a couple times, which has been annoying since it's the only option for non-creature permanent removal. It hasn't been catastrophic yet, but if they sneak a lili through and you can't EE for 3 you've got a problem.

Vnayin suggested trying a Council's Judgement. I'm also playing around with dropping the Cruise for a Keranos (still a source of card advantage, but also a wincon. Plus you can bolt away resolved walkers).

How has misdirection been? In my experience, it's the lowest-performing blue card so far. Also, have you tested much vs UR delver? I've felt pretty comfortable vs most delver matchups, but UR always seems to have just enough reach to kill me right before I stabilize. Baneslayer helps, but it seems they've always got all deez to blank it (double bolt it after I fight over cruise, etc).

[jarvisyu]

I love this list. Is Treasure Cruise any good here?

[alphastryk]

I love this list. Is Treasure Cruise any good here?

Treasure Cruise is ok. Obviously worse that Dig Through Time, which is why I'm only running one as a 5th Dig. It's possible that something like Impulse is just better though.

I'm trying to rework my sideboard to improve the UR Delver matchup, likely cutting the Wear // Tear, Pithing Needle, and maybe the Blood Moon.

Current frontrunners for those slots - Kor Firewalker, Nyx-Fleece Ram (really), and more BEB effects.

I'm not too worried about people boarding in RiP / Relic / Leyline against us - I think them having those cards in their deck is bad enough - this deck can function without the delve spells when needed.

Misdirection has been great as a 5th FoW in counter wars and as a way to fight Hymn.

EE getting Needled seems bad, but I'm having trouble coming up with a scenario where both Needle and the thing non-creature you want to kill resolve - you have more counterspells than anyone else in the format.

I had a Council's Judgment initially but never really needed it. Swapped to the Wear // Tear but that's been equally a blank.

[phazonmutant]

I played Alphastryk's 73 in a 20 person local yesterday. I swapped the Blood Moon and a Clique for a Crypt and a Meddling Mage. The list was stellar, although I did run into a nearly unwinnable match up in Manaless Dredge. I managed to steal a game where I Surgicaled him twice, Plowed some creatures, Crypted him, and still almost died to a giant Grave Troll (I ripped Verdict off a Ponder shuffle). Yeah that's a tough deck. Otherwise, crushed mana dredge and Elves, and drew with a slow Elves player who wouldn't conceed to my onboard Moat. Speaking of, that card was amazing and way, way better than Verdict. I think I'll be playing this deck in a duel for duals PTQ side event.

[goodolrock]

Treasure Cruise is ok. Obviously worse that Dig Through Time, which is why I'm only running one as a 5th Dig. It's possible that something like Impulse is just better though.

I'm trying to rework my sideboard to improve the UR Delver matchup, likely cutting the Wear // Tear, Pithing Needle, and maybe the Blood Moon.

Current frontrunners for those slots - Kor Firewalker, Nyx-Fleece Ram (really), and more BEB effects.

I'm not too worried about people boarding in RiP / Relic / Leyline against us - I think them having those cards in their deck is bad enough - this deck can function without the delve spells when needed.

Misdirection has been great as a 5th FoW in counter wars and as a way to fight Hymn.

EE getting Needled seems bad, but I'm having trouble coming up with a scenario where both Needle and the thing non-creature you want to kill resolve - you have more counterspells than anyone else in the format.

I had a Council's Judgment initially but never really needed it. Swapped to the Wear // Tear but that's been equally a blank.

I've tried 2x BEB in the board, was a pretty marginal benefit.
I've also considered running a Ram - I'll try it next time, probably alongside an E Tutor.

Agreed that grave hate is pretty irrelevant vs us.
The only situation I've been in where needle on EE was relevant has been vs a deck running Liliana (also happened vs Elves, but it just meant i had them soft-locked with moat/jace instead of hard-locked with EE/ruins).

Online meta is 20%+ UR delver (by itself!), and it looks like paper metas are similar; I'm interested in hearing about what you end up having success with in the board.

[klaus]

After testing Baneslayer Angel today, I have to say, EtA will remain my go-to killcon for the time being.
Outside of the lifegain aspect, there really is no benefit to her.

I like that EtA is immune to STP, Lili, Jace bounces etc., but what makes those angel tokens stellar is that you not only can cast them EOT, but also basically just end the game right there.

[exallium]

After testing Baneslayer Angel today, I have to say, EtA will remain my go-to killcon for the time being.
Outside of the lifegain aspect, there really is no benefit to her.

I like that EtA is immune to STP, Lili, Jace bounces etc., but what makes those angel tokens stellar is that you not only can cast them EOT, but also basically just end the game right there.

Do you run top at all? Or do you find that you need to be conservative with your Brainstorm effects to get an entreat on top / trigger it at your opponent's end step?

[klaus]

Do you run top at all? Or do you find that you need to be conservative with your Brainstorm effects to get an entreat on top / trigger it at your opponent's end step?

You can check the OP, it's 2 currently. I keep my version up to date there.

[alphastryk]

Interesting to see you're liking EtA - I tried it and it was awful. Maybe our metagames are that different? I really don't see the appeal of EtA without making tons of other changes I don't want to make - your list has to play Top to support it, and Top is not where this deck wants to be. To reliably cast it EoT as you claim requires playing the deck very differently as well. The biggest thing though - you don't need to 'win the game right there' - the fact that you are so far ahead on cards means you already have - you just need to physically close the door. If I thought I could get away with it I'd just play 4 Jaces and be done with it.

There isn't a Jace / Lili / StP deck I'm scared of (those matchups are all very good already except for Jund) , so I don't need a wincon to help out there - Jace does just fine. Baneslayer doesn't get Pierced or Decayed. It gets you life back again aggro when you need it.

[Svknoe]

Caleb Durward talks about the deck in a recent article:

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-picks-and-predictions-for-gp-new-jersey/

[alphastryk]

Caleb Durward talks about the deck in a recent article:

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-picks-and-predictions-for-gp-new-jersey/

Interesting to see - your list from MTGO I guess? :)

"...The result is this deck, which looks like it belongs in Vintage."

That's definitely true - it often feels like you just are not playing the same format as your opponent.

[Svknoe]

Yes, I have had good success with it on modo recently. :)

The list is almost an exact copy of Carsten's list, which I think is the best variant. I haven't tested the list in the OP, though. My changes only amount to wanting 1 more piece of graveyard hate and budget concerns.

Edit:

Do any of you have any thoughts on sideboarding? I feel just about clueless. There are the easy things such as removal being bad against combo, while clique is good against control. In fair deck match ups (especially delver), I often don't know what to take out.

[Chaam]

This deck is really interesting. I honestly don't think you need anything but Jace to win though.

Sorceries (8)
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Council's Judgement
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Treasure Cruise

Instants (25)
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
3 Counterspell
1 Fire // Ice
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
4 Dig Through Time

Planeswalkers (3)
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor

Artifacts (2)
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Batterskull

Lands (22)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard (15)
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Path to Exile
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Pithing Needle
1 Wear // Tear
1 Hydroblast
1 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Containment Priest
1 Council's Judgement

[exallium]

You can check the OP, it's 2 currently. I keep my version up to date there.

Awesome... I basically have the deck online already... =D I'm just missing a tundra and some of the cheap stuff.

Definitely going to throw this together post GP New Jersey.

[phazonmutant]

Awesome... I basically have the deck online already... =D I'm just missing a tundra and some of the cheap stuff.

Definitely going to throw this together post GP New Jersey.

If you're used to playing durdly UW control decks quickly (like Miracles), this deck should be pretty easy to play. I don't even play much control and I've found that it's easier than Miracles because there's less Topping and more card draw. I strongly suspect it's a stronger deck overall too.

But on the topic of Entreat vs. Baneslayer - BG decks can beat Entreat with a pile of otherwise-dead Abrupt Decays. Many are stone cold locked by Baneslayer. It takes less mana to set up a win, and no one beats a Baneslayer race. This is regardless of the merits of Top vs. Preordain / Cruise.
Entreat is probably better against white decks, but they usually have a slower clock so you can afford to wait until you can protect Baneslayer (just like you'd have to wait to play around Pierce with Entreat).

Also Moat is insane. Absolutely bonkers. This deck is fairly inbred with a couple of Blasts and Pierces maindeck, and Moat just shores up so many weaknesses. It really bridges the midgame into a late-game win. Often swarm decks will slowroll their creatures for wraths and you'll find yourself swimming in a never-ending horde of creatures. You need a card to really slam the gate closed on them. (I may be out of Moat puns...)

[exallium]

I strongly suspect it's a stronger deck overall too.

That's a big statement. All in all, it's made me more excited to try the deck out. I'll want a change after New Jersey anyhow. I'll definitely pick up a moat online and try it out as well.

[alphastryk]

That's a big statement. All in all, it's made me more excited to try the deck out. I'll want a change after New Jersey anyhow. I'll definitely pick up a moat online and try it out as well.

I've played Miracles since the cards were printed. This is a clearly stronger deck.

I'll repeat what I said in another thread - this is the best Legacy deck I've ever played, including Mystical Tutor Reanimator.

[ZimAshe]

I am really excited about this deck. Are there any videos out there where people have played it? I would love to watch it in action. I will be building the deck (I already have UWR miracles build so the changes are minimal) and bringing it to a local event on Tuesday.

[Chaam]

I am really excited about this deck. Are there any videos out there where people have played it? I would love to watch it in action. I will be building the deck (I already have UWR miracles build so the changes are minimal) and bringing it to a local event on Tuesday.

I would love to see the deck in action. I haven't really found much information on it outside of this thread and the articles posted earlier.

[alphastryk]

Well, I don't have MTGO and tonight is our local weekly, but I'd be happy to play against anybody on cockatrice with this over the weekend.

Not sure another way to get recorded games out there just yet.

[haxorz]

This deck is the real deal. In playing and thinking about the deck, I felt super strong against everything except Burn, Punishing Fire, and 12Post. For burn, I have 2 hydroblasts in the sideboard and 3 stoneforge mystics in the main. For Punishing Fire (and other durdly graveyard decks), I have Tormod's Crypt + Academy Ruins. I don't have a good answer to 12Post but it's not a popular deck.

4 dig through time
2 treasure cruise
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 preordain
4 swords to plowshares
2 engineered explosives
3 stoneforge mystic
1 batterskull
3 jace the mind sculptor
4 force of will
2 pyroblast
3 counterspell
2 misdirection
1 academy ruins
4 flooded strand
4 scalding tarn
1 arid mesa
1 mountain
3 island
1 plains
3 tundra
2 volcanic island

1 engineered explosives
2 pyroclasm
2 hydroblast
1 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
2 tormod’s crypt
1 grafdigger's cage
2 supreme verdict
1 sword of feast and famine
3 flusterstorm

[wweenieking]

@Alphastryk

What's your thoughts on Baneslayer and Moat vs the 2 of Stoneforge package? I feel SFM is better than Baneslayer, but Moat is pretty insane. I'm just torn on which package to run. I wish Moat and SFM worked together lol

Thanks

[Ltj999]

so I'm thinking of switching it up from miracles and bringing this list tomorrow to a legacy FNM.

2 Stoneforge
1 Batterskull

4 StP
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 force (only own 3)
2 counterspell
2 blasts
2 bolt
2 flusterstorm
2 verdict
2 spell pierce
2 treasure cruse
3 dig through time
3 jace
2 EE

2 tundra
1 volc
1 academy ruins
3 island
2 plains
1 mountain
2 mesa
4 tarn
4 strand

SB:
2 council's judgment
2 REB
2 Crypt
1 cage
2 clique2 wear/tear
1 needle
1 batterskull
1 stoneforge
1 misdirection (thinking of changing to a hydroblast)
1 pyroclasm


What are your guys thoughts on this build?

[Happy83]

@ ZimAshe and Chaam: There is a recording of a daily event on twitch where some plays a variant of this deck. There is however a problem with the sound so you cannot hear what he thinks about his plays and of course he hasn't much experience with the deck. If you are still interested here is the link: http://www.twitch.tv/efil4zaknupome/b/585460593

[Svknoe]

I'd strongly recommend playing the 4th dig. It is a lot better than cruise in the deck.

[exallium]

I played a few rounds with a version of this deck (OP's version, sans one tundra for a plains due to $), and I did like it. I got my teeth kicked in by a RUG deck running GSZ to grab mongooses, and a miraclesy deck who red blasted me 4 times and spell snared me 3 times in one game... Big case of "oh look, they have it." pretty well through all the rounds I played.

I'll be putting more time into this deck after the GP

[Ltj999]

Cool, I'll test out the 4th dig and go with 1 cruse.

We could also name this deck "I'm on a boat"

Edit: watching that video, its so disgusting how much gas he seems to have in his hand all the time....

[Kaslan]

I have been testing the UWr (with out Entreat the Angels) on paper and a BUg version on MTGO.

I have found that the control, Delver and combo MU is very favorable in both cases IF they don't land a Planeswalker. The UWr version has a very hard time dealing with a resolved Liliana and 0 ways to deal with a non blue Planeswalker. Because of that problem I have started to work on a hybrid between gold digger and miracles.


Instants [21]
3 Counterspell
2 Pyroblast
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Dig Through Time

Sorceries [12]
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Terminus

Enchantment (1)
1 Counterbalance

Planeswalkers [2]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifacts [4]
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives

Lands [20]
1 Arid Mesa
1 Mountain
2 Volcanic Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Island

As an old miracle player I missed the power, flexibility, instant speed of Entreat the Angels.

[AnziD]

This deck's manabase needs a LOT of work. Basic Plains and Mountain are just nightmares and I'm contemplating whether we should just be on more blue duals.

[HSCK]

I haven't had any issues, being Moon and Waste proof for your colors seems pretty important.

[Jables237]

I have found that the control, Delver and combo MU is very favorable in both cases IF they don't land a Planeswalker. The UWr version has a very hard time dealing with a resolved Liliana and 0 ways to deal with a non blue Planeswalker.

Council's Judgement?

[Kaslan]

Council's Judgement?

Yes it's an option. "alwaysbroke" is streaming the MTGO daily even with the Stoneforge version of this deck on twitch.

[.Ix]

What do you guys think about Talrand? He seems much faster than Elspeth or Ajani at an easier mana cost, and should be a lot less clunky than Entreat. Even if he can get bolted/plowed, this deck should still be able to make 2-3 drakes in response in the late game and ride those for the win. Just an idea.

[AnziD]

Yes it's an option. "alwaysbroke" is streaming the MTGO daily even with the Stoneforge version of this deck on twitch.

What is his twitch handle?

[exallium]

What is his twitch handle?

"alwaysbroke"

[AnziD]

Cool. I'm actually 3-0 in the daily with this deck rn, so I'll have to check out his videos after. I'll post some initial findings about this deck after the next round.

[Ltj999]

Cool. I'm actually 3-0 in the daily with this deck rn, so I'll have to check out his videos after. I'll post some initial findings about this deck after the next round.

yah it would be great if you could post your list alongside it. I would love to take a look at it before I take the list to a paper tournament tonight!

[Kaslan]

What is his twitch handle?

http://www.twitch.tv/alwysbrke


also what do you guys think of Slice and Dice instead of fire-ice ?

[afedelejr]

I played about 10 games on the stream today. I went 2-2 in the daily, losing to the mirror and to 4 color delver in the last round. There were fights over stifles that I lost. This deck is a ton of fun. I'm still not very good at legacy and this was my first time playing this deck do I cam only imagine how it performs with a more experienced pilot.

I went with Caleb's suggestion on the sideboard, adding 2 more Cages but I beat reanimated 3 times without ever casing it once.

I'm very curious about the baneslayer / moat build but won't be able to test until next week.

[kiblast]

This deck is the real deal. I might overextend and say it's better than miracles. For sure better if you want to play a 6+ rounds tournament, as it's less time consuming, overall easier to play, less decision making involved. You just cast stuff and draw half your library and then somehow win. Wincons are not that important, JTMS it's (obviously) the best one , but I can see devoting 1-2 slots to additional win conditions. Sfm Batterskull it's not that good in my opinion, as people will generally board the same stuff they board vs Miracles, Needles,K grips, Rods. Using as your only non-Jace win-con an artifact that gets hosed by most (if not every-well except from Reb and Pyroblast) card they'll bring vs us post board seems a bit clunky.
Talrand is nice, I'll try it out, I have played him before in UR Next Level Threshold builds and it's incredibly good when he's online.
Baneslayer is probably even worse than Batterskull although Moat is a fine card on its own and sometimes game breaking.

[nickmooretol]

Are Keranos or TNN possible options to complement Jace? I'm not really convinced on SFM/Skull either.

This deck definitely has potential. I'm planning on giving it a test run at SCG Columbus this weekend to potentially play in New Jersey.

[klaus]

@Kiblast:
nice to see you on this thread :-)

I love how nothing's been set in stone yet- it's like "tinker tinker test test tinker tinker tune tune /repeat" basically my favorite thing about MTG.
It might be too early, but I find there are some choices that can be coined as core never the less, at least for the time being:

4 BS
4 Ponder
4 STP
4 FoW
3 Jace
2 Pyroblast
2+ CS
2 Supreme Verdict (I'm currently testing #3)
5 Delve spells (trust me when I claim, 4 DTT+1Cruise still has to be proven to be the best config. Also 6 really feels overkill)
--> that leaves 9-10 flex slots, which is a ton!

20-21 land (I actually prefer 21)

SB:
3 Clique
2 REB/Pyro
2 Pyroclasm
-

Thoughts?

[exallium]

I definitely prefer a heavier land count in a control deck. 21 with 4 ponders sounds like the place to be.

[Teknique]

I definitely prefer a heavier land count in a control deck. 21 with 4 ponders sounds like the place to be.

21 absolutely. I've been testing with 20 land for about 2 weeks (many many games pre and post board against top tier decks) and after the initial hiccups of learning to play optimally and overcoming the small stupid mistakes you make when you first pick up a deck, my losses have literally only been because of mana issues, all of which seem to be solved by the 21st land.

I'm on the moat/baneslayer plan and for those of you who haven't tried it yet, please do. It's absurd. I'm yet to resolve a baneslayer against anything and NOT have my opponent immediately concede.

You have infinite resources in this deck, so make use of them and grind your opponent down. If you're casting baneslayer and can't guarantee it resolving or living, you've misplayed.

[catmint]

This deck is the real deal. I might overextend and say it's better than miracles. For sure better if you want to play a 6+ rounds tournament, as it's less time consuming,...

Played miracles a lot but new to this.
Feels more consistent and easier to play (less clunk) - just cantrip, remove/counter - draw win

Win is the only thing that is not clear to me. Entreat is a really nice win button for miracles but cannot be justified without top. So we will have to settle for a slower win I guess.

Here my thoughts. Nothing really tested - just brainstorming and love to hear thoughts/experiences.

Ideally a win has awesome (blue - pitchable and therefore less clunky), has utility beyond winning, finishes quickly and is resilient.

SFM feels clunky - not awesome - decent utility but there are many scenarios where batterskull is discarded early or SFM is removed so not that resilient after all.

TNN is super resilient but easily trumped if we play it early. If they drop something better we might have to EE/Wrath away our own wincon. If we drop it late - slow as hell - why not play something big.

Baneslayer is not awesome and can be sworded/edicted but otherwise very solid of course.

Keranos has awesome and a lot of utility but is very slow.

How about we use some flex slots to fill in 2 clique (and maybe 1 snapcaster) as they can provide a lot of utility and a much faster win vs. combo and if we are in full control they are not much slower than the resilient wincons above. On top of that maybe 1-2 more resilient win slots next to jace.

One of those slots should be Keranos I guess since it is soooo strong vs. control. Not pierceable or removable and kills walkers.

So maybe another slot for a faster fattie - a baneslayer with awesome - which brings me to my favorite thing in legacy brewing. Thinking about cards that you would never ever consider to play (creatures cmc=5). :tongue:

Dominus of fealty
Some extra utility - having win more fun

hypersonic dragon
Faster - and a bit of win more fun

Niv-Mizzet, the firemind
Costs 6 - but also kills creatures and can kill very quickly.

[klaus]

After having played some mirrors:
This archetype will be well represented at quite a few big events to come. Meta'ing it to beat Miracles, Delve_Delver.dec and the mirror will be key.

One of the worst nightmares to face is CB+Top, so having sufficient means to handle a resolved CB is vital. You have to break the balance in control mirrors and gradually take it from there. For those of you coming from Miracles, you'll agree that resolving an early Top has a major impact, as draw-go matches will grant you plenty of time to filter and forge the perfect hand. I'm aware Top does not look like a perfect fit for this deck, but, believe it or not: 90% of the time I'm happy to see it OVER a Preordain. Yes obviously I'm considering this constantly as this choice gets criticized quite a bit.

I'm sure over at the Miracles thread there's a considerable amount of deck builders who consider Top the second best card in the deck (after BS). So maybe give it a shot - the argument "but it doesn't feed my Delve spells", is a slippery slope as Top will not merely find you all those cantrips to do so, but anything else you desire to gain / stay in control.

For reference, here's my current list:


4 FoW
3 CS
2 Flusterstorm (mighty happy with those)
2 Pyroblast

4 BS
4 Ponder
4 DTT
2 Top

4 Jace
1 EtA

4 STP
3 Supreme Verdict

1 EE
1 Council's Judgement
(39)

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island (considering -1 Tundra +1 Volc)

SB:
1 Top
3 CB (yes, testing this atm, as it murders the mirror, Miracles, Delver, Punishing.XYZ and Burn)
3 Pyroclasm
2 RiP
2 REB
3 Clique
1 Wear/Tear

[Raystar]

I'm sure I'm saying a stupid thing but what about Pristine Angel?

Easy to protect, works as both offence and defence...

[kiblast]

@Kiblast:
nice to see you on this thread :-)

:-D



I find there are some choices that can be coined as core never the less, at least for the time being:

4 BS
4 Ponder
4 STP
4 FoW
3 Jace
2 Pyroblast
2+ CS
2 Supreme Verdict
5 Delve spells

20-21 land (I actually prefer 21)

SB:
3 Clique
2 REB/Pyro
2 Pyroclasm
-

Thoughts?

This is my same core. 21 lands with 4 Bs 4 Ponder 2 Preordain -I'm still loving the cantrip cartel configuration by Carsten Kotter :D , 5 Delve spells.
Also I think that unless you are playing Entreat as your non-Jtms win con (which is a fine choice) Preordain are superior to Tops. But if you are not sleeving any Miracles, Preordain shines.
Oh, we also may want to consider Izzet Charm as a 1-2 of Army knife that digs for answers and dumps stuff to fuel Delve spells, an additional taxing counter that could come handy in certain Mu's, and a spot removal.

[Happy83]

Stormbreath Dragon could be a win con. It starts not as huge as a Baneslayer Angel but it is immune to Sword and can be a potential 7/7 if we have the mana in the late game.

[klaus]

Izzet Charm

Very nice find. The Careful Study effect will come in handy too at times. Will test it.

[AnziD]

So I'm working on the manabase for this deck right now and I am currently at the following list:


4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Mesa
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins

3 Tundra
2 Volcanic
1 ??? (either Mesa #2 or Island #4)

I'm not completely sure about the numbers for the last 6 lands. I think Volcanic Island may just be more important than Tundra because of the sideboard and stuff. However, there are no RR cards and the list I'm running atm has 2 WW cards. Any input?

For reference:

4 STP
1 Moat

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
3 Counterspell
3 JTMS
4 Force of Will
1 Treasure Cruise
4 Dig Through Time

2 Engineered Explosives

1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Treasure Cruise
2 Spell Pierce
1 Baneslayer Angel

21 Lands

3 Flusterstorm
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Hydroblast (this card is amazing, might want a 2nd one)
1 Pyroblast
1 REB
2 Pyroclasm
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Supreme Verdict

Note: The last 5 cards of the maindeck are the ones I am unsure of at the moment. I guess Moat could be there too, but so far every game I have seen it, I have wanted it.

[phazonmutant]

Baneslayer is probably even worse than Batterskull although Moat is a fine card on its own and sometimes game breaking.


Baneslayer is not awesome and can be sworded/edicted but otherwise very solid of course.

Keranos has awesome and a lot of utility but is very slow.

I don't get it. Why is Baneslayer worse than Batterskull or not awesome? The only argument I've seen is basically "it dies to Doom Blade".

For a non-Jace finisher, you want a few things:

Win the game quickly. Jace can kill anyone, so a big reason to have a non-Jace finisher is in matchups where you need to close before they can draw out your counters, or before you go to time
As cheap as possible. For a realistic finisher, that means 4-5. It should also play around Spell Pierce if possible - that adds another 2 to the cost.
It shouldn't be answered easily, pre and post board.
A big bonus - gaining life. Against aggressive decks, gaining life is equivalent to more draw steps. You want to get out of the danger zone once your drop your finisher. This really is an extension of the first point.


Against Delver decks, Baneslayer blocks a flipped Delver the turn it comes into play, and then it virtually wins the game the first attack. It's extremely difficult to race Baneslayer, and the lifegain should climb you back from a bad spot even if it's killed. If it's not, it actually wins the game in 4 swings. Batterskull takes 5, but plays defense so that's pretty much a wash. Keranos is slow, it definitely fails this test. Talrand should be able to close quickly, but doesn't gain any life. Maybe that's offset by having a horde of blockers? It's worth considering.
Baneslayer costs 5 and can't be Pierced. Keranos is the same. Batterskull can be Pierced. It also is killed by Decay and artifact destruction. What's that? You can just pick it up? Sure, then Batterskull costs 8 and can still be Pierced. Talrand beats this by costing 4, but to make him good you really should play a spell after. So 4 isn't the whole story.
Baneslayer can only be answered by Liliana edict, Swords, Jace bounce, and two Bolts. Many BUG decks aren't even playing Liliana any more, so against them it's almost a lock. Against white decks, it's a bit trickier, but they don't put a lot of pressure on you so it's less critical to just jam a finisher in there without backup. In practice, many decks scoop to Baneslayer. Keranos is the clear winner here - it can be Blasted on the stack but that's it. Batterskull dies to Decay (the germ) and the Miracles hate people already bring in. Sure, you can Ruins it back, if Ruins hasn't been Wasted and your graveyard isn't RiP'd. Talrand is the least resilient - it can be Bolted and Plowed. If it lives though, it's tough to beat.


If you look at all these metrics, I think Baneslayer is the clear winner. I didn't expect Talrand to do so well in the analysis though...I'll have to look into him further.

[Svknoe]

I think that another important quality of the secondary finisher is resiliency. With Academy Ruins in the deck Batterskull is a lot more resilient than Baneslayer Angel. Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull is also a lot more efficient (i.e. cheaper) than Baneslayer Angel if that is needed.

[.Ix]

@phazonmutant
That's what I was thinking when I though of Talrand. Often the deck can just do what Vintage Gush does: Drop Talrand with counters in hand, then "storm out" with 3+ cantrips. It won't matter if he dies after that. When the deck wants a finisher, it typically has 6-7 mana.

[Tcpdump]

With the land drop on every turn, why not morphling? (Hypster mode on) fly, defense, attack, like jace


Enviado desde mi iPhone con Tapatalk

[Megadeus]

Aetherling > Morphling

Also to those suggesting Batterskull, how are you flying over your Moat?

[apple713]

Pearl Lake Ancient what about this guy? no lifelink / flying an issue?

[lambert101]

Testing the following for GPNJ. I have been playing it as a Jace control deck. The blood moon seems like the weakest slot but with fetching right it slow decks down.

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Dig Through Time
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pyroblast
3 Pyroclasm
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Council's Judgement
2 Supreme Verdict
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
2 Counterspell
1 Batterskull
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Blood Moon

3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Karkas

Board:
Board of:
2 red elemental blast
2 pithing needle
4 meddling Mage
1 blue elemental blast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Rest in Peace
1 graffdigger's cage
2 Vendilion Clique

[btm10]

Baneslayer is probably the best overall. I've been using Consecrated Sphinx in my UR build and it's definitely better than Aetherling or Morphling. While Sphinx doesn't have the protection that the 'lings do, it's incredibly hard to lose once you untap with him in play, and it's not hard to make sure you cast him with Force (or some other counter) backup.

[Kaslan]

why not Geist of Saint Traft as a finisher ? he kills fast, east to cast, low CC and the opponent's can't target him.

[apple713]

why not Geist of Saint Traft as a finisher ? he kills fast, east to cast, low CC and the opponent's can't target him.

pretty sure they can still easily block him, and he can't attack if moat is out. I like the idea of consecrated sphinx much better.

[bruizar]

I would not be able to resist using Commandeer in this deck. Also, please explain to me why Baneslayer is better than Keranos. I understand the lifegain is nice, and I guess sometimes trolling Griselbrand comes up (it actually doesn't since they can just draw 14, drop emrakul and troll you back with the annihilator trigger), but Baneslayer has no protection. Keranos helps establish card advantage and serves as creature removal every turn while also being a win condition with protection.

[klaus]

@Lambert101:

I can see overloading on creature removal like you opted to, if your local meta dictates it.
For an open field though, I consider this overkill, as your Control / Combo MUs become rather unfavorable.
I'm currently really happy with 3 Pyroclasms in the SB and basically Flusterstorms in their slot.

[lambert101]

@klaus

I am basically playing this deck like a Jace control deck until anyone think of a truly solid win condition. Assemble sadly is just to slow. In some match-ups moon acts as a shield to hide behind until you Jace ultimate. Another thought I had was to use ghostly prison or another taxing attack effect to slow the game down. Last thought, I may cut 3 pyroclasm from the main for 2 Cliques and move the pyroclasm to the board. Just a thought to beat down with cliques but pyroclasm then becomes awkward.

[HSCK]

I am trying TNN right now but really intruiged by BSA.

[Ltj999]

So I tested a pretty standard list with baneslayer and a 1 of batterskull on Friday at a legacy FNM. Didn't do great but pretty sure that was due to many of my own play mistakes and it being the 1st time I ever played the deck. Regardless, it felt really powerful against everything in the room except burn. I felt like I had almost no chance against burn outside of just racing to dig for the baneslayer or batterskull. I'm not sure how to equalize this matchup more, but it needs to be thought out for sure.

[kiblast]

I don't like Baneslayer mainly because it's an unprotected creature, that's it. I want win cons to be as much reliable as possible. I feel Keranos, Batterskull, or Talrand are overall better just by comparing the cards side by side in a pure control environment. Anyway I'm still tinkering with the deck, I'll test MoatSlayer as well.

[rancOr_]

Keranos is a pretty resilient win condition.

[HammerAndSickled]

Hey guys, new to this archetype and my brother's thinking about running it at Jersey. Can anyone critique my list?

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Council's Judgment
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Baneslayer Angel
4 Dig Through Time
1 Treasure Cruise
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain

Don't have a sideboard 100% yet but it will involve a Stoneforge package, Pyroclasms, additional Blasts, Grafdigger's Cage/Containment Priests, and perhaps Meddling Mages.

[martyrX]

Out with the terminus, in with the Dig. Did some testing and played locally with this list:

4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 dig through time
1 treasure cruise

3 counterspell
2 spell pierce
4 force of will
1 misdirection
2 pyroblast

1 clique
1 venser
1 snapcaster mage
1 batterskull

2 supreme verdict
4 swords to plowshares
1 engineered explosives

3 jace


4 flooded strand
4 scalding tarn
2 arid mesa
3 tundra
1 volcanic island
1 karakas
4 islands
1 plains
1 mountain
21

Side (so far...):

2 flusterstorm
1 vendilion clique
1 council's judgement
2 surgical extraction
2 red elemental blast
2 pyroclasm
1 wear/tear
1 blood moon

Snapcaster was a little inconsistant because this deck tends to empty the grave and wants cards in the grave. He might get cut.

Overall, the deck is incredibly powerful. It gets you what you need. I saw all of my cards today, many times.

I did have some problems with burn. Perhaps some blue elemental blasts would be good in the sideboard, or maybe a red hoser like kor firewalker is in order. stp my own creature helped, another benefit of MD clique.

Combo matchup was quite good main. I digged for the counterspells and the deck brought me counterspells, what else can you ask for?

I chose batterskull over baneslayer as a secondary finisher because batterskull has the ability to protect itself and baneslayer does not, and i am not runnig moat. It was good and if it connected once my opponent scooped, but at times it was a little slow. Still not sure if it is the best choice, clique was usually better and with karakas much better. I like a cheap option for a finisher if possible, something that lets you keep up uu for counterspell would be best.

I'm already liking this deck better than miracles, it is what blue is all about, baby!!!

@bruizar commandeer might be pushing it, but worth the look on the opponents face when it happens :0

[phazonmutant]

I played this deck in a large local tournament for duals yesterday. Didn't end up doing particularly well, I think due to some combination of bad matchups, not being experienced with the deck, and deck construction.

My list is still pretty similar to alphastryk's:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Dig Through Time
1 Treasure Cruise

4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
3 Counterspell
2 Pyroblast

2 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Moat

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Baneslayer Angel

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins

// Sideboard
2 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Meddling Mage
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Wear // Tear

R1 - Warfordium with Mono-U Omnitell - The matchup wasn't particularly close. It felt like I had more counterspells than he had threats. Dig pulled its weight, and Jace closed.
R2 - UWR Delver - I was about to turn the corner game 1, but instead of Snapcaster + Swords, I played a Jace to bounce his Germ, leaving me vulnerable to 1 point from SFM + double Bolt. Game 2 I had a land-heavy hand, but Brainstormed some back. This came back to bite me when he Stifled a fetch, leaving me without a second white source for my Baneslayer and Moat in hand. He beat down with Batterskull and and Sword of Feast and Famine, but I finally managed to find a Tundra to tap out for Moat. Unfortunately his Delver flipped immediately, picked up a SoFF, and discarded my Baneslayer. He Blasted my Brainstorm the next turn, and I lost from there. I wonder if my boarding is wrong? I brought in REB, 2 Clasms, Verdict, and Wear // Tear for Misdirection, a Force, a Jace, a Cruise, and a Pierce or a Force.
R3 - BUG Delver - He's a maniac playing Stifle and Hymn. Didn't matter though, the matchup seems very, very positive. Moat is a problem, Jace is a problem, Baneslayer is unbeatable. She took it home both games.
R4 - Turbo Depths - This matchup seemed pretty terrible. To be fair I never had the counterspell for the Crop Rotation either game or the Plow for the Marit Lage, but I'm certainly not favored. Even if Marit Lage is taken care of, Knight of the Reliquary finding infinite Wastelands is a problem. He got off pretty quick turn 4 kills.
R5 - Punishing Jund - There's no way I should have won this match, but my opponent missed several opportunities so I scraped out a 2-1 match. A key one was not battling with a Koth'd mountain the turn Koth came into play (he didn't realize it untapped the land). Dig found me what I needed and Baneslayer took it down two games in a row. Most Jund decks are cutting Liliana so their only out is Pulse. Jace is decent and Moat is insane against them, so Pulse is overworked.
R6 - UWR Delver - It was a close couple of games, but his Stifles were able to keep me off 4 and then double white or red while he pressured me with equipment. Moat was about to lock up the game when I drew my second white, but he Wear // Teared it.

So I need to test much more against Stoneblade. I didn't really know how to beat them when my back was against the wall. Also now that they're running Stifle, the matchup is much harder. I think I want to try out the 4x Stoneforge build, cutting Moat and adding some Verdicts. Moat was good but maybe Verdict is a fine replacement? I certainly wanted to see Verdict more than Moat occassionally. If I don't go with that build, I definitely want a second Baneslayer in the board. Kor Firewalker wasn't versatile enough, I think I'd play BEB in its place. I might need a Needle just to shore up the Depths and Lands matchups.

[HSCK]

I think BSA being impervious to REB/Pyro is really important right now as well.

[Erik9798]

I really like this deck. Played it in a small local tourney today (9 ppl) and went 2-2. Felt really powerful and was a blast to play, even if I played it terrible. Lost to u/b tezzerator after he turn 1 chalice on 1 two games in a row. Also had a hard time dealing with resolved walkers. Played with sfm/b skull but don't think that's what I'll stick with. Next week I'll try fitting in 21st land and a different win con besides sfm. Maybe just main deck clique with resto to operate with all instant speed? Thoughts on this...

[jafar]

Hi all,

speaking of finisher, may I suggest Blood Baron of Vizkopa


He is resilient to stp, bolt, decay, dismember (just to name the most played) and has lifelink.

Obviously is antisinergistic with moat and verdict and sadly needs the fourth colour.

My 2 cents

Bye

[H]

Next week I'll try fitting in 21st land and a different win con besides sfm. Maybe just main deck clique with resto to operate with all instant speed? Thoughts on this...

Interesting, if you go this route, I would certainly run Moat. In this case, perhaps Baneslayer should be the top of the curve then? I just feel like relying on so many creatures is going to make the Miracles matchup more difficult.


Hi all,

speaking of finisher, may I suggest Blood Baron of Vizkopa


He is resilient to stp, bolt, decay, dismember (just to name the most played) and has lifelink.

Obviously is antisinergistic with moat and verdict and sadly needs the fourth colour.

My 2 cents

Bye

Blood Baron is neat, but one problem I see is he gets blocked by a 4/5 Goyf pretty easily. If only he flew by default...

[Spigore]

So it seems both Phazonmutant an Alphastryk ran the exact same 60 maindeck in a tournament.
According to what I've read and seen, Phazon took Alphastryk's sideboard suggestions into consideration and made some minor changes to it.
If Kor Firewalker doesn't do it's job, BEB seems interesting to improve to UR Burn/Delver match, can nuke Swiftspear, Eidolon, Lavamancer (and perhaps counter a Sneak Attack?).
As Klaus writes, Pyroclasm should deserve a spot in the board to my idea.

I'm very curious about Alpha's current 75.

More than that, some suggestions have been made for the singleton beatstick BSA. Imho, Consecrated Sphinx seems like an interesting approach, but might lack the lifelink/first strike.
I will be sleeving up Phazon's and Alpha's 75 and have a go with it. On paper, BSA seems a little 'meh' to me, but hopefully (and probably) she will prove me wrong!
As HSCK mentions, BSA being REB/Pyro proof is a thing nowadays.

Hopefully testing this deck soon and adding some useful comment to this thread soon, as for now, I'm only theorycrafting. :tongue:

[alphastryk]

Quick update guys. Went 3-1 in my local on Saturday, beating BUG Delver, Maverick, and Goblins but losing to Punishing Jund.

Kor Firewalker was an all-star against Goblins, acting as a mini-moat for 3-4 turns. I don't think that matchup is common enough for that to be the deciding factor though.

After those results & with commander out and wanting to integrate Containment Priest, here's where I've gotten to:


4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Treasure Cruise
4 Dig Through Time

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Moat
1 Supreme Verdict

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
1 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast

1 Baneslayer Angel
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Nyx-Fleece Ram
1 Wear // Tear
1 Blood Moon
2 Containment Priest


I wanted a bit more removal main (and Snapcaster has been pretty bad for me). I cut Snapcaster and a Preordain to move Verdict main & added a Bolt. I'm going to keep an eye on this though - cutting cantrips and trying to keep the delve engine is a slippery slope.

While Firewalker is very good, fetching WW early against decks that might have PoP is scary. Ram has been good too - there's probably a correct card here but I'm playing the split and taking notes until then.

With Containment Priest and Blood Moon, I don't think I need Surgical Extraction (it's been mediocre so far even when I've brought it in), but I may be getting greedy.

Blood Moon earned it's way back to deal with Jund, Lands, 12post, etc - things I've had trouble with so far, even if they may not be too common.

Consecrated Sphinx gets REBed or I would be playing it. A second Baneslayer still isn't out of the question in the board.

[Chaam]

Quick update guys. Went 3-1 in my local on Saturday, beating BUG Delver, Maverick, and Goblins but losing to Punishing Jund.

Kor Firewalker was an all-star against Goblins, acting as a mini-moat for 3-4 turns. I don't think that matchup is common enough for that to be the deciding factor though.

After those results & with commander out and wanting to integrate Containment Priest, here's where I've gotten to:


4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Treasure Cruise
4 Dig Through Time

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Moat
1 Supreme Verdict

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
1 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast

1 Baneslayer Angel
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Nyx-Fleece Ram
1 Wear // Tear
1 Blood Moon
2 Containment Priest


I wanted a bit more removal main (and Snapcaster has been pretty bad for me). I cut Snapcaster and a Preordain to move Verdict main & added a Bolt. I'm going to keep an eye on this though - cutting cantrips and trying to keep the delve engine is a slippery slope.

While Firewalker is very good, fetching WW early against decks that might have PoP is scary. Ram has been good too - there's probably a correct card here but I'm playing the split and taking notes until then.

With Containment Priest and Blood Moon, I don't think I need Surgical Extraction (it's been mediocre so far even when I've brought it in), but I may be getting greedy.

Blood Moon earned it's way back to deal with Jund, Lands, 12post, etc - things I've had trouble with so far, even if they may not be too common.

Consecrated Sphinx gets REBed or I would be playing it. A second Baneslayer still isn't out of the question in the board.

Just a thought: -1 Engineered Explosives, -1 Lightning Bolt for +1 Fire//Ice, +1 Council's Judgement.

Fire and Ice works as the extra removal you wanted while being a cantrip/versatile. In a lot of ways it can be better than Bolt by killing 2 things and it pitches to force/misdirection. With 4 Dig/cantrip.dec I think having 1 Engineered Explosives is ok since we will be seeing the majority of our deck every game. This also allows you to play another high impact 1-of, council's judgement. I think as a control deck we need to have something like this in our list as a catch all vs. anything.

[lambert101]

Finally decided to drop the Assemble the Legion :( Here is my current list


4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 dig through time
3 pyroclasm
2 supreme verdict
4 force of will
1 blood moon
2 Stoneforge mystic
1 Batterskull
4 swords to plowshares
2 counterspell
2 pyro blast
3 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Treasure Cruse
1 Engineered Explosives

3 island
2 plains
1 mountain
4 tarn
4 strand
2 messa
1 volcanic
2 tundra
1 Karkas

Board
2 pyroblast
2 Pithing needle
2 Flusterstorm
2 clique
4 Mage
1 cage
1 Engineered Explosives
1 council's judgement

If I was going to try assemble again I would cut the 2 Mystics for an assemble the legion and the enginerred explosives from the board and put in a containment priest/venser/or blue elemental blast.

[klaus]

Fire and Ice works as the extra removal you wanted while being a cantrip/versatile. In a lot of ways it can be better than Bolt by killing 2 things and it pitches to force/misdirection.

imo: Izzet Charm >>> F/I
* same CMC
* cantrips better regarding delve impact
* deals two dmg (ok, not dividable, but splitting up F/I for profit is like a <20% chance imo)
* counters stuff :-)

-->Pretty happy with it currently, actually.

[alphastryk]

Chapin wrote about the deck today: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29696_How-To-Win-Grand-Prix-New-Jersey.html

Seems like people will know whats going on at the GP now. :(

I was definitely getting a lot of free value from nobody knowing the deck.

[AnziD]

imo: Izzet Charm >>> F/I
* same CMC
* cantrips better regarding delve impact
* deals two dmg (ok, not dividable, but splitting up F/I for profit is like a <20% chance imo)
* counters stuff :-)

-->Pretty happy with it currently, actually.

I tested out Izzet Charm for a bit and every time I drew it I wished it was another card. The big matchups where it screwed me over was UR Delver (had this awkward scenario with Pyroblast and Izzet Charm in hand, he has an unflipped Delver and a Swiftspear) and ANT (Izzet Charm cost too much). I think I'd play with Spell Pierce instead, but even that I'm not a huge fan of honestly.

[phazonmutant]

Looks like a deck tracking the similar idea just won the SCG. Briszka didn't take the deck to its logical conclusion (4 Digs, cantrips), but I think it's interesting that both Alphastryk and he have gotten to the same place with maindeck Bolt.

I tried something incorporating his ideas about Stoneforge and Blood Moon at a weekly yesterday (14 people, not bad for a secondary weekly!):
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dig Through Time

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
2 Counterspell

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins

// Sideboard
2 Blood Moon
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Meddling Mage
1 Baneslayer
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Council's Judgment
1 Wear // Tear

I had the Council's Judgment main for the event, but I really missed having a wrath maindeck, and EE was sufficient. Also I boarded it out a fair bit, I'm not even sure it should be in the 75. Another wrath might be better, another Baneslayer is a consideration, or maybe more cheap spot removal like Bolt. Meddling Mage was fairly terrible, Containment Priest is clearly better. I think Storm should be a good matchup, so that cut shouldn't hurt.

The Stoneforge plan seemed much, much better to me (and I really don't like Stoneforge usually!). Just having a way to be proactive for only 2 mana was crucial, and having a way to make a 4/4 Lifelinker on turn 3 while leaving up countermagic was crucial as well. Stoneforge got bolted less than I expected, and it didn't really matter because it was so easy to cast Batterskull down the road. At the end of the day, Stoneforge helps shore up the fringe matchups by being generically powerful, and also makes it much harder for the opponent to board by attacking from multiple angles. Baneslayer was great and was clearly better than Batterskull in a heads-up comparison - Decay hits the germ, and there were several instances where I couldn't put Batterskull into play because it would get shattered - but overall Stoneforge is a stronger plan.

R1 - U/R Delver - I lost game 1 to a horde of creatues. Those openers are almost impossible to beat. Game 2 I Pierced a couple of Sulfuric Vortexes while he had no pressure on board, and finally stuck a Baneslayer to close. Game 3 he boarded in Blood Moon and played it on 3. I fetched a basic, Pierced, he Forced, and I happily let it resolve. I had another basic in hand and cantripped into more while he was doing basically nothing. Definitely not a good board plan for him. 1-0
R2 - Jund - Looooong, grindy games. He played Goyf off Bayou, Waste, and I fetched basic Plains with Plow, 2 Counterspell in hand to Plow it. He followed up with Bob, which was bad. He missed several land drops, and about 6 turns later I was close to stabilizing if I drew spells, but he drew out of the screw while I drew lands and running Bloodbraids finished me off. I replayed Batterskull like 4 times and he killed it over and over with Punishing Fire. Game 2 I resolved a Blood Moon on a clear board with Island, Plains, but couldn't draw a second blue for my pile of double-blue spells in hand. He eventually drew a Forest and Gripped my Batterskull, then Bloodbraided into Golgari Charm. This allowed me to cast spells, however, and after dealing with a string of Bloodbraids, Baneslayer took it home. Game 3 started short on time, and despite me having Blood Moon in hand and plenty of backup spells to his 3x Punishing Fires plus an unknown in hand and nothing on board, he didn't want to concede. 1-0-1
R3 - MUD - He mulliganned low game 1, and turn 2 Stoneforge won by itself. Game 2 was looking grim when I had a naked Batterskull (blocked and killed a Lodestone) versus Forgemaster, Wurmcoil, and a tapped Grim Monolith. Things looked even worse when he tinkered a Sundering Titan, leaving me on one fetch. I Plowed it and cantripped into lands, and Dig found running removal. Jace fatesealed him out. 2-0-1
R4 - U/R Delver - He deployed a Delver, Pyromancer, Swiftspear, and then another Pyromancer when I Plowed the first, putting me in a bad situation. I was able to protect my turn 3 Stoneforge with Pierce though, and he made a bad attack (not sending with tokens and Pyromancer into sick Stoneforge), which allowed me to Dig and cantrip into the 2 removal spells I needed and claw my way to a victory from 1 life. That was a sweet game. Game 2 was a quick affair, with a turn 2 blind flip Shattering Spree leaving me without a way to catch up to his onslaught. Game 3 I stuck a quick Stoneforge and battled with Batterskull uncontested. His Vortex shut off lifelink, but he had nothing in play so that was an easy race. 3-0-1

Most games I won revolved around a quick Stoneforge, so that was clearly a good plan. I was surprised at how much better the UR matchup felt. I also think that Blood Moons did a lot of work, even if they didn't win the game on their own.

I then tested a few matches against UR Omniscience - that was a sweet list with 4 Digs main, no Enters. It went quite poorly preboard, but I think postboard was better (only tested a couple games). I also played like 12 games against lordofthepit playing Vial Maverick and got absolutely crushed. Weathered Wayfarer was insane - I can't not play lands, but if I do I just got Wasted - and Mom and Vial made things very tricky. Postboard was not better. The only games I won were when he didn't have Vial.

So yeah, lots of battles. Hope you find the matchup notes helpful! The deck seems powerful, and I feel like I'm arriving at a list I'm comfortable with - perhaps other peoples' playstyles are different.

[afedelejr]

Im streaming this deck right now at twitch.tv/alwysbrke if your interested. No making fun of my bad plays though :)

[warfordium]

I then tested a few matches against UR Omniscience - that was a sweet list with 4 Digs main, no Enters.

I assume it had Burning Wish as a result...what is the kill?

[phazonmutant]

I assume it had Burning Wish as a result...what is the kill?

Yup, 4 Burning Wish. There's one Enter in the board as well as Petals of Insight and Grapeshot. He had 2 Emrakuls main, no Dream Halls. One game he hardcast 2 Omniscience and I won... Very weird game. If we want to continue discussing it we should probably move to the U/R Omniscience thread (boy that thread hasn't seen much love in a while).

[warfordium]

If we want to continue discussing it we should probably move to the U/R Omniscience thread (boy that thread hasn't seen much love in a while).

^^ indeed. Pyroclasm, Enter, and other kills via board? yes please. access to REB as well...

[nickmooretol]

I played the following at SCG Columbus and went 3-3 drop:

1 Baneslayer Angel
2 Stoneforge Mystic

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
1 Council's Judgment
3 Counterspell
4 Dig Through Time
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Fire//Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Treasure Cruise

1 Academy Ruins
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Hydroblast
1 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Wear//Tear

I beat UWR Delver, ANT and Death and Taxes and lost to Burn, Infect (at the hands of Tom Ross) and 12post.

Overall, the deck ran fairly smoothly and I don't feel like I made any egregiously bad misplays, but running into two nigh-unwinnable matchups was a bit unlucky.

I like the direction Rudy Briszka took, making it more of an Esperblade-style deck. I think it's a nice compromise between UWR Delver and Gold Digger, and is something I'm going to play around with this week in preparation for New Jersey.

[phazonmutant]

I beat UWR Delver, ANT and Death and Taxes and lost to Burn, Infect (at the hands of Tom Ross) and 12post.

Overall, the deck ran fairly smoothly and I don't feel like I made any egregiously bad misplays, but running into two nigh-unwinnable matchups was a bit unlucky.

I like the direction Rudy Briszka took, making it more of an Esperblade-style deck. I think it's a nice compromise between UWR Delver and Gold Digger, and is something I'm going to play around with this week in preparation for New Jersey.

Which matchups were nigh-unwinnable? 12-post seems difficult for sure - basically your only hope is Blood Moon and virgin sacrifices. But neither infect nor burn seem that difficult. I forgot to mention before, but I tested against Infect and I was like 4-2 and the matchup didn't feel close. Both games I lost I had a land-light hand and he Wasted me off blue (the singleton of course). In another game he Wasted me and I laughed at him because it was irrelevant.

Jitte was very relevant in our matches though, so maybe that's the big difference.

[wweenieking]

Has anyone had any real testing vs miracles? I played 55 of Rudy's 60 at SCG Worc a few weeks ago, no I'm not lying lol, but I lost to miracles twice. That matchup felt tough. I had needle for top, but they were bringing in wear/tear anyways because of Batterskull and telhey have Councils Judgement. Counterbalance is so good vs us if you don't resolve E.E. Obviously u can recure it with Ruins, but you can't always have both.

Thanks

[mote5]

How about Chasm Skulker along side a couple Disrupts and Gitaxian Probes?

I'm currently testing with two Cliques and a Talrand as my creatures with Karakas as my 21st land/61st card.

[alphastryk]

Has anyone had any real testing vs miracles? I played 55 of Rudy's 60 at SCG Worc a few weeks ago, no I'm not lying lol, but I lost to miracles twice. That matchup felt tough. I had needle for top, but they were bringing in wear/tear anyways because of Batterskull and telhey have Councils Judgement. Counterbalance is so good vs us if you don't resolve E.E. Obviously u can recure it with Ruins, but you can't always have both.

Thanks

I've played roughly 25-30 games against Miracles and have lost exactly 1. It's an extremely good matchup. I am playing Baneslayer over SFM & Batterskull though.

This is just a better Jace deck and has more relevant interaction.

[kiblast]

I've played roughly 25-30 games against Miracles and have lost exactly 1. It's an extremely good matchup. I am playing Baneslayer over SFM & Batterskull though.

This is just a better Jace deck and has more relevant interaction.

Played just twice vs Miracles (won both) but I'm absolutely positive this deck is favored both pre board and post board.

[Swing4Five]

Resolved Counter-Top seems very difficult to overcome. Klaus is even running Tops main, and an additional in the board along with Counterbalances; mostly for the near-mirrors.

[AnziD]

Played just twice vs Miracles (won both) but I'm absolutely positive this deck is favored both pre board and post board.

Can you post your 60 preboard and postboard?


Right now my ideal 60 postboard looks like this:

3 jace

4 dig
2 cruise
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 preordain

4 fow
3 counterspell
3 pyroblast
1 reb

2 explosives
3 clique

4 cards ???

21 lands

can't figure out the last 4 slots, if I want it to be sfm + skull, spell pierces, or whatever :/

[jedi_gof]

Jamming the following list tonite:


//Wincons (4):
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Baneslayer Angel or 1 Entreat the angels (still undecided)

//Business (34)
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Dig Through Time
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Preordain
1 Sensei's divining top
1 Moat
2 Surpreme Verdict

//Lands (22)
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Academy Ruins
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

//SB
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Wear//Tear
1 Additional Wincon(ETA / Baneslayer Angel)
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
1 Council's Judgement


Very close to OPs list. Will try to make a small writeup and report tomorrow about tonites ventures into time :D
Lots of UR delver in my meta but also D&T and combo.

[SirTylerGalt]

Looks like a deck tracking the similar idea just won the SCG. Briszka didn't take the deck to its logical conclusion (4 Digs, cantrips), but I think it's interesting that both Alphastryk and he have gotten to the same place with maindeck Bolt.

In his winner interview, Rudy explains that he actually started with a more controllish lists (probably from this thread or Carsten's article), and decided he needed to be more proactive:

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/586598702?t=35h43m20s

The deck tech is also pretty cool, he talks about Baneslayer Angel:

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_jeskai_stoneblade_wi.html

[Kaslan]

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15162&iddeck=112516

the moat- Baneslayer Angel version finsihed 1st. the list is interesting

[klaus]

@SitTylerGalt & rest:
This deck looks sweet (though I'd definitely go with -1 SFM, -1 SCM + 2 Ponder).
Discussing this creature-heavy build in detail would beg for a distinct thread though (just like Miracles VS Stoneblade). So please keep it focussed on the (more or less) creature-less archetype here and feel free to start another thread in "N&D Decks".
Cheers!

[Spigore]

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15162&iddeck=112516

the moat- Baneslayer Angel version finsihed 1st. the list is interesting

Hi Kaslan,

Just FYI, this is Alphastryk's list finishing 1st place as he reported in post #24 of this thread.

[lambert101]

So far the 3 pyroclasm 2 supreme verdict 2 engineered explosives and 1 council's judgement have been awesome in a delver meta. The only concern I have is the 2 Stoneforge mystic main that potentially get hit by a wipe. For reference my list is the one from channel fireball's last article with the following 5 changes:

Out from channel fireball's list
1 counterspell
1 fire//Ice
1 misdirection
1 Preordain
2 Spell Pierce

My new selections:
3 pyroclasm
2 supreme verdict
1 Council's judgement

This list has come along way from my assemble the legion build. Man do I miss playing that card. Please let me know your thoughts on this more removal heavy list. Thanks.

[afedelejr]

I think this is good if your in a aggro heavy meta but im now sure I want so much removal in the main in a event like a GP. Yes delver is very present right now but there are so many decks in legacy and people live playing their pet decks so aore general main deck seems more appropriate. Just my 2 cents

[kiblast]

Alphastryk, what's the main reason behind 2 Pierces over Snares in the main? This deck doesn't apply pressure at all, Opponent can just wait 2 more turns and your pierces are easily avoided, any competent combo or control player will do that. Snares are much better, they have better targets and they are relevant until the game ends in about ANY matchup.

I also like Izzet charm in place of Misdirection for additional value/ utility. If you want a misdirection effect, I'm sure Swerve is way better considering you normally never tap out in your turn unless you are casting a win con… and you don't tourach yourself in the process.

Edit: here's where I am right now. Playing this on sunday.

Deck: Legacy Keeper http://deckstats.net/mana/m/w.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/r.gif

//Main
4 Ponder (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Ponder)
2 Preordain (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Preordain)
2 Supreme Verdict (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Supreme+Verdict)
1 Treasure Cruise (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Treasure+Cruise)
4 Brainstorm (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Brainstorm)
4 Swords to Plowshares (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Swords+to+Plowshares)
3 Counterspell (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Counterspell)
4 Force of Will (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Force+of+Will)
4 Dig Through Time (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Dig+Through+Time)
4 Flooded Strand (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Flooded+Strand)
2 Arid Mesa (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Arid+Mesa)
3 Tundra (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Tundra)
2 Volcanic Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Volcanic+Island)
3 Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Island)
2 Plains (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Plains)
1 Karakas (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Karakas)
4 Scalding Tarn (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Scalding+Tarn)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Jace%2C+the+Mind+Sculptor)
1 Council's Judgment (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Council%27s+Judgment)
1 Izzet Charm (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Izzet+Charm)
1 Moat (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Moat)
1 Red Elemental Blast (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Red+Elemental+Blast)
1 Baneslayer Angel (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Baneslayer+Angel) <---I switch this slot with Talrand often while testing. Still can't decide what's better although I might like Talrand better as with him I can avoid spot removals generating multiple tokens.
1 Engineered Explosives (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Engineered+Explosives)
2 Spell Snare (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Spell+Snare)

//Sideboard
2 Flusterstorm (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Flusterstorm)
1 Pithing Needle (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Pithing+Needle)
1 Wear // Tear (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Wear+%2F%2F+Tear)
1 Pyroclasm (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Pyroclasm)
2 Vendilion Clique (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Vendilion+Clique)
2 Red Elemental Blast (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Red+Elemental+Blast)
3 Tormod's Crypt (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Tormod%27s+Crypt)
1 Blue Elemental Blast (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Blue+Elemental+Blast)
2 Kor Firewalker (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=it&card=Kor+Firewalker)

[lambert101]

Yeah I am trying to hedge my bets against delver, elves, and DnT. Those 6 slots could honestly be anything. I noticed the more you play this deck your goals are trying to keep the board clean and your hand full. Other ideas I previously had included Keranos, Assemble the Legion, and Blood Moon main. Those provided to be powerful but slow. The pair of stoneforge mystic's took the place of Keranos and Assemble. Another idea would be to cut those 6 slots for 2 more Stoneforge Mystics, a Jitte, and 2 True-name as a more stoneforge build. Just trying to finalize those slots before GPNJ which I am playing this deck!

[Higgs]

I would so love this deck to be an established contender in the meta, I'm such a draw-go guy, but I still have my reservations about the current builds. I'm still watching it from a distance (as opposed to actually playing it) so my ponderings are purely theoretical, take them for what it is.
In modern magic I think a successful control deck needs two things:
* A lock (or inevitability)
* A combo kill to end the game on the spot once you have inevitability (or have defended yourself long enough) because there is no universal hard lock against Legacy.
In Miracles CounterTop is your lock and Entreat is your combo kill. In Control Lands the whole deck (and the sideboard) is focused on locking out decks and they have Marit lage as the combo kill. UB Tezz, Chalice and Bridges for the lock, Helm combo as the combo kill... etc. etc. I understand that the raw draw power of this deck along with its rogue status is providing it a huge advantage at the moment but I feel like these two things have to be introduced to the deck for it to be a lasting, established archetype.

[Chaam]

What do you guys think of taking this even more towards a vintage type deck? We can just run 4 Young Pyromancer as our win condition like the Vintage Gush Pyromancer deck does. Thoughts?

Would probably look like this:

Creatures (5)
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Snapcaster Mage

Sorceries (7)
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Council's Judgement
1 Supreme Verdict

Instants (27)
4 Brainstorm
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
4 Counterspell
1 Fire // Ice
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
4 Dig Through Time

Lands (21)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas

Sideboard (15)
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Path to Exile
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Pithing Needle
1 Wear // Tear
1 Hydroblast
1 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Containment Priest
1 Council's Judgement

[lambert101]

Another thought in the lock vain was to use the last six slots for a combination of 2 top and 3 counterbalance with a 1 of council's judgement.

[Megadeus]

Can you post your 60 preboard and postboard?


Right now my ideal 60 postboard looks like this:

3 jace

4 dig
2 cruise
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 preordain

4 fow
3 counterspell
3 pyroblast
1 reb

2 explosives
3 clique

4 cards ???

21 lands

can't figure out the last 4 slots, if I want it to be sfm + skull, spell pierces, or whatever :/
Swords to plowshares seems like a decent card. I hear it's pretty decent

[Higgs]

Another thought in the lock vain was to use the last six slots for a combination of 2 top and 3 counterbalance with a 1 of council's judgement.

A random thought; 3 Painter's Servant 3 Grindstone in the 6 flex spots. Easy to find both pieces with so much dig (or 'Dig' for that matter) and already have Academy Ruins for resiliency. On the downside, these cards don't do anything on their own.

[lambert101]

The painter idea would be funny. I honsetly need a lock or instant win combination with those slots. I would even be willing to make it 8 slots by cutting the 2 stoneforge mystic if necessary to create a lock control.

[Jables237]

A random thought; 3 Painter's Servant 3 Grindstone in the 6 flex spots. Easy to find both pieces with so much dig (or 'Dig' for that matter) and already have Academy Ruins for resiliency. On the downside, these cards don't do anything on their own.

Turns on REBs so we can run more. That seems fun. 1 mana counter/kill anything with a ton of draw.

[alphastryk]

While Pierce isn't great, you often need it early to protect your hand from discard or to stop early planeswalkers from the opponent. I can't think of something I would want Snare for. If people wait two turns to play around it, that seems generally good for us - we win almost any long games, and that gives us time to draw more answers. Remember - we want to aggressively trade 1-for-1 and then reload with delve spells.

Fire // Ice and Izzet Charm don't appeal to me - if I wanted removal at 2cmc I'd just move a Pyroclasm main (that might be what happens anyway).

Misdrection has been great for me - I'm tapping out pretty often early in games casting cantrips. Maybe we're just playing the deck very differently?

I've posted my maindeck a ton of times, so I'm not going to repost that again, but here's my 60 post-board vs Miracles: (not a lot of room do even do things differently, not sure how else you could board)

21 land
14 Cantips

3 Jace

1 Baneslayer
3 Clique

1 Verdict
2 EE
2 Pyroblast
1 REB
2 Pierce
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Flusterstorm

Pierce is important in keeping early Tops and Balances off the table, Flusterstorm and Pierce are good at making sure our Jace resolves & their Entreat does not.

It might even be right to have BEB in to fight REBs and Keranos, but that seems a bit suspect.

I'm not convinced you 'need' a lock or a combo kill to have a good deck. It feels great to get away from leaning so hard CB soft lock, which was often the worst part of Miracles for me.

This deck is much less mentally taxing to play, which is a huge upside in long tournments.

[Higgs]

The 60 I want to test first chance I get to play:

21x Lands

4x Dig through time
2x Treasure cruise
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
2x Preordain

4x Force of will
1x Misdirection
3x Counterspell
3x Pyroblast

4x Swords to plowshares
2x Supreme verdict

2x Jace, the mind sculptor
2x Grindstone
2x Painter's servant

The idea with the combo kill is I don't want to be a dog to stuff like 12-Post and I wouldn't want to drag games any longer than I should. Could be a terrible waste of slots but if we are already playing like a Vintage deck why not do it all the way right?

[martyrX]

Why do we want the likes of stoneforge or painter's servant in this deck? Why activate the enemy's removal? I want nothing on the board except for jace and then when the time is right, a wincon (or maybe only jace). I don't mind landing a clique, but he doesn't have to stay on the board. He can gain me life with stp or just die with the rest of the creatures to verdict and be dig fuel, or die as a blocker, or get bounced with karakas.

I always hated spell pierce in miracles (almost never ran it), but I find pierce is ok late game with this deck. Your hand is full of counters, plenty of the time i find that a counterspell + pierce or hardcast fow+pierce or even sometimes 2 X pierce gets the countering job done when you really need it.

I also find that this deck improves fow dramatically, you can use it and misdirection much more aggressively.

For now i want to find as many blue solutions as i can for the side if possible. Helping fow be effective and not having to fetch duals can be important.

Regarding kor firewalker and mary's little lamb, i think we need a solution that works vs jund and burn that is not decayable...i think i might give sphere of law a try.

[Zllig]

This deck is so crazy. I'm still not sure whether or not it's better than Miracles, but I really felt good when I played it last Friday. I went undefeated facing Bant Stoneblade, UWr Miracles, Sneak and Show, and UBr Tezzeret.

The list I played was very similar to alphastryk's since it seems pretty close to optimal to me.


3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Academy Ruins

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Fire//Ice

4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Pyroblast
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Treasure Cruise
4 Dig Through Time

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Keranos, God of Storms

Sideboard:
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Pyroclasm
1 Blood Mood
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wear // Tear
1 Circle of Protection: Red
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle

Sideboard was haphazardly thrown together since I was late for the event. I don't own a Moat, nor did anyone have one on them (What gives?!) so I figured I'd just play Keranos plus whatever looked most fun to me and that was Shackles. I didn't want to play Baneslayer without the Moat and I really like Keranos main in my meta even though I can see the obvious benefits of Baneslayer.

Round 1: Bant Stoneblade
These games were pretty uneventful, he never drew a Stoneforge but not having a sweeper in the main was making me sweat. However, when I resolved Shackles he scooped. The next game he scooped to my end of turn Dig Through Time plus a second Dig Through Time. That one felt real good. I really wished I had Moat in this match up, it would have been basically unbeatable.

Round 2: UWr Miracles (Rich Shay)
We play draw go for about 15 turns while I cantrip and make land drops and load my hand up with counterspells. I let him resolve a Top and for some reason he starts missing land drops. After about DI turns of doing nothing, I play a Jace and let him counter it and pass back. He tries to resolve his own but can't get through my hand of double Force of Will, Counterspell, Pierce and Pyroblast. He mutters something about me actually having all the counterspells and I tell him I don't have anything else in my deck. I resolve a Keranos the next turn and then a Jace, he spends all his turns digging for his single Council's Judgement and finally finds it. It was too late since I had dealt with 2 Jaces and 1 Entreat already and I had EE on 0 and was ready for the second Jace so he could never win. 40 minutes have passed and he concedes. He should have probably conceded when I had Jace/Keranos out since then I just played the don't die game in game 2 and turn 5 passed of turns with me having 1 card in my library after a Jace ult. The main deck EEs make this match up unbelievably easy, this was one of the matches where I was glad I had Keranos and not Baneslayer.

Round 3: Sneak and Show
I can't figure out what he's on as he's stuck on Volc and only casting Ponders. I get 1 Force in my hand and Ponder and see Counterspell, Island, Force of Will. I thought he was probably on UR delver with a bad hand so I took the Counterspell with the Island then Force. Turns out he goes land, petal, Show and Tell and I force, he forces back and I'm dead to an Emrakul. I guess I should have taken the second Force but I really wanted to be able to make my next land drop and leave Counterspell up. Games 2 and 3 I counter all his spells and kill him with a Jace and Clique respectively.

Round 4: UBr Tezzeret (Undomain on here)
We split, but play games for the extra pack. He keeps some weak hands since these were low stakes but I manage to beat him. If he had kept real hands I still don't think I was much of an underdog. Having Counterspell and Forces lets me stop his Walkers and main threats, while the main deck EEs let me get out of Chalice locks and prevent him from killing me directly with Thopter Foundry.

This deck is really tugging on my heart strings. I can't decide whether this is actually better than Miracles or not, and that's not the way I want to be thinking a few days before Jersey. I also don't think I can handle playing this deck for 10+ rounds, at least I know with Miracles that I have a win condition that usually wins in one swing. On the other hand cantripping is slightly easier than topping.

Edit - Forgot Fire//Ice in main deck

[AnziD]

I've posted my maindeck a ton of times, so I'm not going to repost that again, but here's my 60 post-board vs Miracles: (not a lot of room do even do things differently, not sure how else you could board)

21 land
14 Cantips

3 Jace

1 Baneslayer
3 Clique

1 Verdict
2 EE
2 Pyroblast
1 REB
2 Pierce
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Flusterstorm

So here are a couple of my thoughts:

1) I want more ways to kill a resolved Jace.
2) Pierce has surprising utility in that it can stop delve spells that are cast off of 4+ mana
3) What's the verdict for?

[lambert101]

How good is moat? I was looking at the deck and thinking man if I did not have all of these board wipes I could play moat main with some cliques. In that same vain is bainslayer worth it? Just trying to get ready for GPNJ.

[phazonmutant]

I went 2-1-1 yesterday. I'm pretty fed up with continuing to get draws in every tournament. I'm making decisions quickly (although possibly not as quickly as possible / necessary?), but my opponents are taking their sweet time. Have to say that's one big thing I miss about Storm and Delver.

I was still trying out Stoneforge. I still like it more than Moat / Baneslayer and theoretically it should allow me to close games faster. Academy Ruins rebuying Batterskull was good in the pseudo-mirror (the winning list vs mine, we drew). Someone in the thread claimed that any discussion of Stoneforge disqualifies the deck from this thread. That's unreasonable, the key difference between this and Stoneblade is the cantrip and Dig suite. The finisher is yet to be determined clearly.

R1 - Burn - he played and boarded poorly but I don't think I was likely to lose the match. 1-0
R2 - Mirror - he resolved Jace first, and was just barely able to defend it and kill mine. He Jaced me out (maybe I should have conceded when my chances were slim?). Game 2 was really interesting, the person ahead switched back several times. Both of us got Batterskulls shattered, but I had a cute play Stoneforge, trigger on the stack put Batterskull on top with Ruins play. Game 3 we were even on board. 1-0-1
R3 - ESG's Delver brew - BURG Delver without Stifles or Wastes. He flooded horribly game 1, but killed all my creatures. Snapcaster eventually picked up a Jitte and ended it. Game 2 he had grudges aplenty, and lots of pressure. Game 3 I plowed Goyf then resolved Blood Moon on turn 3, locking him out. 2-0-1
R4 - Miracles - the pairdown against a person playing Miracles for the first time. I made a big mistake with a Ponder by not sequencing a couple turns in advance (didn't put a land on top), which made me play Jace without Pyroblast up, which allowed him to win the counterwar on Entreat. That got there. Game 2 I got him down to 5 with Meddling Mage on Counterbalance, but then he found a Plow, played Counterbalance, and locked me out.

So far I've gone 1-3 against Miracles. Obviously I need to test or approach the matchup differently since I'm getting such different results from alphastryk. I wasn't boarding in Flusterstorms and I was boarding out Pierce, so that's a big difference. What do you guys think is a good board plan with the Stoneforge builds? Should those be favored more?

[alphastryk]

So here are a couple of my thoughts:

1) I want more ways to kill a resolved Jace.
2) Pierce has surprising utility in that it can stop delve spells that are cast off of 4+ mana
3) What's the verdict for?

You have 3 blasts and 3 cliques if it resolves - which has happened once in all the games I've played. Fight hard over Jace - it's usually the only card they have that matters.

Verdict is obviously the worst card left, but it is a backup answer to entreat - this is where I would consider BEB.

Edit: The lists with more creatures might have a worse Miracles matchup - I've been winning by going over the top and being an even longer game control deck. Pierce is excellent against CB and Jace, as well as Entreat if they mess up.

My plan is usually to try to get them to fight over the first delve spell, then slam Jace. If they don't fight over the delve spell, or you win the fight, you're so far ahead it's very hard for them to come back.

You definitely have to play super fast given how many actions you have to take. Even moreso than Miracles, which could be difficult if you are not used to it.

[Jables237]

Has anyone tried Luminarch's Acension? Seems really good with the Moat plan but weak to Abrupt decay.

[Jizz]

I d like to question the 1 of TC that we see in most of the lists. How has it been doing for you ?
For those on the Moat build, wouldn t Clique be a better card to have instead ? Providing a much needed clock G1 Vs Combo and protecting Moat.

[Zllig]

I d like to question the 1 of TC that we see in most of the lists. How has it been doing for you ?
For those on the Moat build, wouldn t Clique be a better card to have instead ? Providing a much needed clock G1 Vs Combo and protecting Moat.

I personally dislike the Cruise, I understand why it is there but it never feels as good as casting Dig. I'm planning on cutting it for something like another Bolt or something similiar to Impulse.

[goodolrock]

@alphastryk Have you gotten in more testing vs UR delver? I'm wondering what your experience was if so.

I felt good against other delver decks (especially UWr delver - batterskull doesn't fare too well across the moat!), but in testing I couldn't quite stabilize against UR.

Concerning, given how large a share UR has among the delver lists currently.

[AnziD]

Another option, akin to how some Miracles sideboards side, is to have the SFM package in the board.

[alphastryk]

The one Cruise is definitely awkward. Keep in mind the deck started with 2. I've tried another Preordain, I've tried Impulse. I may still try Fact or Fiction. Impulse was the second best card, but wasn't super exciting either.

I got a lot of testing in vs UR delver tonight, and here's where I've gotten to (this list will consistently win matches). Game 1 is still unfavored, but not horribly, and games 2 & 3 are favored.


4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Preordain
1 Treasure Cruise
4 Dig Through Time

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Baneslayer Angel

1 Moat
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Pyroclasm
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

SB:
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
3 Nyx-Fleece Ram
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Wear // Tear
1 Blood Moon
2 Containment Priest


I ended up on Ram over Firewalker simply because it was hard to produce WW early enough for it to matter. I'm up to 3 cards to make sure I see one by about turn 4. Ram either helps you stabilize while blocking or keeps you from dying to topdecked burn late.

Here's how I'm boarding for the matchup:
-1 Jace, -2 DTT, -1 Cruise, -3 Counterspell
+2 BEB, +3 Ram, +1 Fluster, +1 REB

Counterspell seems like it should be fine, but often you don't have UU available when you want it.

I hate boarding down WinCons, but Jace is pretty awkward until the game is locked up. There's not a lot of other spells I'd want to cut either, and REB makes Jace pretty awkward. I want another Baneslayer but I'm not sure what to cut.

There's an argument for not taking out so many delve spells, but you need to make sure you don't lose by turn 4, not make sure you win on turn 8.

[jedi_gof]

Played this list last night to a 4-2 record. First time playing the deck, and a bit rusty as I have not played much lately.

//Wincons (4):
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Entreat the angels

//Business (34)
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Dig Through Time
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Preordain
1 Sensei's divining top
1 Moat
2 Supreme Verdict

//Lands (22)
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Academy Ruins
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

//SB
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Wear//Tear
1 ETA
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
1 Council's Judgement

Round 1: Mono R painter
G1 i manage the key spells from his side and bury him in cardavantage.
G2 I horribly missplay and lose to the combo
G3 was same as G1, simply higher cardquality and dodging the early moon.

1-0, (2-1)

Round 2: Death and Taxes
Game 1 i manage lifetotal and after moat lands i only have to handle his flickerwisps and a quick concession follows after wisp#3 is handled.
Game 2: I fail to draw enough relevant spells and lose to sofai equipped creatures.
Game 3: Vclique and ETA angel beats after stabilizing with moat.

2-0 (4-2)

Round 3: Death and Taxes (again)
Game 1 Again i easily manage lifetotal and after moat lands i handle his flickerwisps and ETA beats him.
Game 2: same as above

3-0(6-2)

Round 4: Bug Delver
G1: I wiff on 2 brainstorms and the deck craps all over me and i lose to not finding any additional lands or cheap cantrips.
G2: I resolve 2 DTT, 5x 1mana cantrips and see no sweepers or moat and lose to goyf beats :-/

Felt a winnable MU, but no luck this round
3-1 (6-4)

Round 5: Sneak & Show (w.progenitus)
G1 I lose to a sneak attack, i can handle everything for a while but he eventually gets there. I did see a progenitus though and did not mind! :)
G2: I have way more answer than he does business, and Utli jaces him for the win.
G3: Here i have a lot of counters and not much else. He loses a lot of life to A.tomb, so clique kan sweep up in 4 attacks.

4-1 (8-5)

Round 6: UR Delver
Not much to write about, he draws gas and resolve 3x TC in both games where i resolve no delve spells. Not close - 0-2.

4-2 (8-7)
Missed top 4 by 1pt :-/

Pleased with the deck, just my playstyle! Not as taxing to play as other control decks, as you burn your spells quite fast in this build.

Thoughts:
-Moat is the real deal! Awesome all day!
-Baneslayer was missed, will play it over eta next time around
-1 top in main overperformed. Will not play more, but it was really good all day. It also pegged people to put me on stock miracles :-)
-TC was underwhelming, never cast it, pitched it to force once though.
-2 supreme was overkill, will reduce to 1 - most like a pyroclasm will be brought in instead
-2 Flusters main was awesome, glad they were not peirces!

Dissapointed in the perfomance vs delvers, will ditch the CB sb plan for Rams i think and some more flex - most likely another baneslayer too.
I think my 2 losses boils down to variance, but non the less i will be working on shoring up th UR delver MU going forward.

[klaus]

I missed Banesslayer

Baneslayer would have had a hard time against double D&T in rounds 1 & 2.
I bet EtA felt nice as a wincon here :wink:

I can see that BSA is nice against BUGxyz & UR but anything running White (aka STP) just makes her look bad.

[Holly]

To quote something about the original deck which can be translated to the deck v2 aswell for to Baneslayer or to not Baneslayer.


Racks or Angels?

Warren Chang suggested that there is no reason to allow the opponent the opportunity to use anti-creature cards at all. He has advocated using 2 Racks instead, as the Serras wouldn't come out before the Sceptre/Counterspell lock anyway. Along with this change, the Moat could be replaced by the Abyss, which removes creatures instead of just neutralizing them, and works against flyers as well.

Brian Weissman objects to these changes. In his own words:

I totally disagree with Warren Changs suggestion of removing the Angels from "The Deck", to completely render my opponent's creature defense innefective. He has totally missed the point. I NEED creatures in my deck to prevent this from happening, as I give my opponent far to great of an advantage if he gets to sideboard out all of his creature defense.

[klaus]

To quote something about the original deck which can be translated to the deck v2 aswell for to Baneslayer or to not Baneslayer.

And that's exactly why I'm proposing BSA as a SB choice.

I mean we're not talking about D&T only when it comes to BSA being susceptible to STP.
* Miracles (!)
* UWR xyz
* Mirror
* Deadguy (still well-represented at bigger events)
* Maverick
* etc.
-
and the we'll have to consider any deck running Liliana:
* BUG xyz
* BG xyz
* Pox
* etc

[jedi_gof]

I kind off agree Klaus. But D&T feels quite favored already, regardless of wincon. Ulti jace works fine as well :) Games won by angels would have been won by jace within a few turns anyway.

Ux (UR Especially) Delver does not feel as favored. So after very little testing, thats is my preliminary conclusion.
If further testing shows differently i will make a change accordingly naturally:)

[Svknoe]

@phazonmutant

I play the CFB list, and have found Miracles to be pretty good. I think that I am something like 8-2 in matches against it, mainly in dailies. What I think is mot important is to sufficiently play around counterbalance. It more or less has to be countered, which is most difficult in the early game. I board out SFM mystic against them to hold up more counters, leaving me with 3 jace and 3 clique to win. Hitting land drops is important and I generally do not like being the first to go for a Jace. Maximum hand size has sometimes been an issue.

[Kaslan]

after some extensive testing online and in paper this is my deck list that I,m bringing to the GP:

14 cantrips

3 counterspell
4 force of will
2 spell pierce
1 pyroblast

4 dig through time
2 jace
1 Elspeth
1 Batterskull

1 crucible of worlds

4 swords to Plowshares
2 Pyroclasm
2 explosives

3 wastelands
1 academy
8 fetch lands
4 tundra
2 volcanic
3 island

it's a list that plays more like a landstill deck and I think it has more game Vs 12 post and dark depth.

what do you guys think of the inclusion of wasteland and crucible in this deck ?

[klaus]

after some extensive testing online and in paper this is my deck list that I,m bringing to the GP:

3 counterspell
4 force of will
2 spell pierce
1 pyroblast
4 dig through time
2 jace
1 Elspeth
1 Batterskull
1 crucible of worlds
4 swords to Plowshares
2 Pyroclasm
2 explosives
3 wastelands
1 academy
8 fetch lands
4 tundra
2 volcanic
3 island
it's a list that plays more like a landstill deck and I think it has more game Vs 12 post and dark depth.
what do you guys think of the inclusion of wasteland and crucible in this deck ?

I don't like Wasteland at all tbh. It's a strategy that tempo decks can benefit from. Trading mana sources hurts them less in general as they can still apply pressure via cheap threats. However even UR has abandoned it, which alone should speak for itself.
Gold Digger has quite the opposite approach: it aims to buy time and amass mana as much as possible to be able to continously cast delve spells and keep up mana for counterspells.
Furthermore, adding colorless land butchers the manabase & Crucible doesn't make up for it. Reducing fetchlands hurts the delve engine and you don't even have room for a basic Plains anymore.

That being said, I do like Elspeth. I feel she hasn't gotten the love she deserves from people testing out efficient wincons.

[Kaslan]

I don't like Wasteland at all tbh. It's a strategy that tempo decks can benefit from. Trading mana sources hurts them less in general as they can still apply pressure via cheap threats. However even UR has abandoned it, which alone should speak for itself.
Gold Digger has quite the opposite approach: it aims to buy time and amass mana as much as possible to be able to continously cast delve spells and keep up mana for counterspells.
Furthermore, adding colorless land butchers the manabase & Crucible doesn't make up for it. Reducing fetchlands hurts the delve engine and you don't even have room for a basic Plains anymore.

That being said, I do like Elspeth. I feel she hasn't gotten the love she deserves from people testing out efficient wincons.

I do agree that using Wasteland aggressively can be used as a tempo play. In my version I only use them if it's needed (If I'm flooding, absolutely need to kill a specific land or if I see that my opponent is missing land drops)

On top of that wasteland make spell pierce even better if the mid to late game.

[Kobal]

SB:
[...]
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Red Elemental Blast
[...]


Any reason you are not using Hydroblast resp. another Pyroblast instead?

[martyrX]

wasteland seems bad, this deck cannot afford to run so much colourless when you often want uuuu, or uuww available. maybe as a one-of it can find utility in the deck.

elspeth is a nice choice, she works great with moat!

[goodolrock]

Any reason you are not using Hydroblast resp. another Pyroblast instead?

I believe that the idea is Blue Elemental Blast is marginally better, as it can't be misdirected to misdirection (where hydroblast can be when it's in counterspell mode).

I think REB is the choice in the board instead of another Pyro out of respect for card-name hosers (e.g. Meddling Mage, Cabal Therapy).

[afedelejr]

What do.you guys think of Ajani Vengeant as a 1 of?

[Swing4Five]

Ajani Vengeant is another expensive finisher option in a sea of them, and it doesn't stack up particularly well against it's competitors. Batterskull is reusable, Keranos and Baneslayer are immune to being attacked or Bolted.

If you're going to throw out suggestions like Ajani, a little bit of thought provoking text into why you think it's viable over the previously discussed options would be encouraged.

[alphastryk]

I believe that the idea is Blue Elemental Blast is marginally better, as it can't be misdirected to misdirection (where hydroblast can be when it's in counterspell mode).

I think REB is the choice in the board instead of another Pyro out of respect for card-name hosers (e.g. Meddling Mage, Cabal Therapy).

Those are exactly the reasons :)

[goodolrock]

Ajani Vengeant is another expensive finisher option in a sea of them, and it doesn't stack up particularly well against it's competitors. Batterskull is reusable, Keranos and Baneslayer are immune to being attacked or Bolted.

If you're going to throw out suggestions like Ajani, a little bit of thought provoking text into why you think it's viable over the previously discussed options would be encouraged.

I've tried Ajani, and he's not terrible. He is an option for lifegain and removal, his +1 can give you some extra turns to get to a sweeper or a moat. If you immediately +1 him, he's out of bolt range (to the same extent that Baneslayer is, at least) - if you can manage to play around the bolt. If not, he effectively gains you 6 life (because he ate the bolt instead of you) and removes a guy from their board.

However, he doesn't offer as much lifegain as Baneslayer and he's not very good at closing the game out on his own (+1, +1, -2... i guess you'll get there eventually :P). I certainly wouldn't cut another wincon for him; if I was going to keep playing him, it'd be in addition to the BSA and the 3 Jaces.

[goodolrock]

I've tried Ajani, and he's not terrible. He is an option for lifegain and removal, his +1 can give you some extra turns to get to a sweeper or a moat. If you immediately +1 him, he's out of bolt range (to the same extent that Baneslayer is, at least) - if you can manage to play around the bolt. If not, he effectively gains you 6 life (because he ate the bolt instead of you) and removes a guy from their board.

However, he doesn't offer as much lifegain as Baneslayer and he's not very good at closing the game out on his own (+1, +1, -2... i guess you'll get there eventually :P). I certainly wouldn't cut another wincon for him; if I was going to keep playing him, it'd be in addition to the BSA and the 3 Jaces.

Also, another reason he can't fully replace BSA is the quote from Weissman above - you want them to have to leave in creature removal, or be able to punish them if they board it out.

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

I hate to be that budget guy, but without Moat does this deck still have legs? Is Ghostly Prison worth considering as an option?

[mote5]

I hate to be that budget guy, but without Moat does this deck still have legs? Is Ghostly Prison worth considering as an option?

Try Young Pyromancer. He is a sort of soft Moat like effect that can quickly morph into a win condition. I've greatly improved my UR Delver matchup since making this change.

[phazonmutant]

I hate to be that budget guy, but without Moat does this deck still have legs? Is Ghostly Prison worth considering as an option?

Also lists with Stoneforge appear to be doing well too. I posted a list a few pages back, and there are some other.

I'm definitely interested to try Pyromancer. It takes fewer slots and plays well into the deck's velocity. It works so well in vintage, why not here?

[mote5]

Also lists with Stoneforge appear to be doing well too. I posted a list a few pages back, and there are some other.

I'm definitely interested to try Pyromancer. It takes fewer slots and plays well into the deck's velocity. It works so well in vintage, why not here?

I'm still fiddling, but I've been testing this:

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Young Pyromancer
1 Talrand, Sky Summoner
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Dig Through Time
2 Treasure Cruise
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Fire/Ice
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas

SB
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Wear/Tear
1 Blood Moon
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Misdirection
1 Flusterstorm
1 Supreme Verdict

Might be getting ambitious with the Talrand, but the Pyromancers have been pretty amazing. There isn't really room, but a SB with Stoneforge would be interesting, maybe even with a Jitte main.

[Swing4Five]

The problem with Young Pyromancer in this style of list is that it doesn't provide any form of inevitability unless it survives. The big finishers have some resilience against removal and conditional counterspells. Stoneforge is a two for one if it resolves and they kill it, and is plus a card and a huge threat if left to live. If Pyromancer gets bolted, immediately, you're just out of luck. Izzet Delver puts so much immediate pressure on the opponent that they have to fire off removal ASAP on everything they see, Pyromancer is another must-answer threat, fitting in with their theme.

I have been doing some testing with this list, and I will be battling with it at the GP. I'm currently set on the Stoneforge Mystic win condition, partially because I enjoy the Batterskull + Academy Ruins inevitability, and partially because I sold my Moat at Eternal Weekend after owning one for 5 years and never actually registering one in a tournament... :rolleyes:

Here's what I currently have locked:

Card Manipulation:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Treasure Cruise
4 Dig Through Time

Interaction:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Fire // Ice
3 Counterspell
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will

Lifelinking:
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull

Mana:
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Academy Ruins

The only card really unexplored here is the Lightning Bolt. I wanted another piece of early interaction against the creature decks that wasn't completely dead against combo or opposing Jace decks.

This leaves me with 2 open maindeck slots. The cards I am currently looking at are 2 Vendillion Cliques, which would basically just be opening up the sideboard slots they currently occupy, or two of the following:
1 Preordain
1 Lightning Bolt
(in addition to the one already in)
1 Izzet Charm
1 Snapcaster Mage

For the Sideboard, I currently have the following 13/11 locked:
1 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pyroclasm
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wear // Tear
2 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Vendillion Clique
(unless I have 2 main, in which case, there would only be one here)

Which leaves me trying to fit the following 8 cards into these 2 slots:
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Pyroclasm
(again, these would be in addition to the ones locked into the board)
1 Engineered Explosives
(for when you want to go up to 3)
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Containment Priest

The Pyroclasm, EE and Staticaster all fill similar roles, so are probably fighting for the same spot. The same goes for the 3rd Cage vs 1st Containment Priest.

If you guys have any input on why these last slots should be filled with anything in particular, let me know.

[mote5]

The problem with Young Pyromancer in this style of list is that it doesn't provide any form of inevitability unless it survives. The big finishers have some resilience against removal and conditional counterspells. Stoneforge is a two for one if it resolves and they kill it, and is plus a card and a huge threat if left to live. If Pyromancer gets bolted, immediately, you're just out of luck. Izzet Delver puts so much immediate pressure on the opponent that they have to fire off removal ASAP on everything they see, Pyromancer is another must-answer threat, fitting in with their theme.

I can definitely see your point, and I'm still wavering on the kill condition myself, but I would like to add a couple points about YP. You don't expect the first one that lands to win the game. He often comes down on turn three with a land untapped to either Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce their removal, fire off a removal spell of your own, or Brainstorm to generate at least one token. If your turn three YP eats a bolt and makes a token he has done his job. Running multiple YPs allows you to draw them at different parts of the game. The first one is a road bump, but the second or third one you cast will eventually run wild after firing off a big delve spell. The Talrand and Jace's are also there as strong mid to late game bombs. I might try a Misdirection instead of the third Counterspell to help better protect YP. I also am sporting a Karakas to protect the MD Talrand and the SB Cliques. I will admit that a lot of my wins against UR Delver are after stabilizing at very low life totals, so Stoneforge or at least some equipment main would make things a little more comfortable.

[phazonmutant]

I can definitely see your point, and I'm still wavering on the kill condition myself, but I would like to add a couple points about YP. You don't expect the first one that lands to win the game. He often comes down on turn three with a land untapped to either Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce their removal, fire off a removal spell of your own, or Brainstorm to generate at least one token. If your turn three YP eats a bolt and makes a token he has done his job. Running multiple YPs allows you to draw them at different parts of the game. The first one is a road bump, but the second or third one you cast will eventually run wild after firing off a big delve spell. The Talrand and Jace's are also there as strong mid to late game bombs. I might try a Misdirection instead of the third Counterspell to help better protect YP. I also am sporting a Karakas to protect the MD Talrand and the SB Cliques. I will admit that a lot of my wins against UR Delver are after stabilizing at very low life totals, so Stoneforge or at least some equipment main would make things a little more comfortable.

Exactly this. I'm imagining the first is a speed-bump. One of the best answers to a Pyromancer (besides a wrath) is another Pyromancer! Stoneforge and Pyromancer both win unchecked, but Pyromancer gives more of an advantage if he immediately eats it, assuming you cast him and are able to make a token or two. Tutoring Batterskull is card advantage, but it's difficult to quickly stick a Batterskull if Stoneforge dies. A couple of chump blockers should buy plenty of time to get pull ahead with Dig and bombs. Of course, this is all theorycrafting at this point, haven't tested yet.

I would think that a Baneslayer would be a perfect complement to Pyromancer - the things that efficiently answer Pyromancer don't answer Baneslayer and vice versa. Your opponent has the choice of leaving in Plows and just dealing with the tokens (assuming he has Plow!), bringing in Electrickery, Charm, etc and losing to Baneslayer, or having pile of removal in their deck.

[Megadeus]

Sounds like you guys need more plateaus in your deck!

[alphastryk]

Exactly this. I'm imagining the first is a speed-bump. One of the best answers to a Pyromancer (besides a wrath) is another Pyromancer! Stoneforge and Pyromancer both win unchecked, but Pyromancer gives more of an advantage if he immediately eats it, assuming you cast him and are able to make a token or two. Tutoring Batterskull is card advantage, but it's difficult to quickly stick a Batterskull if Stoneforge dies. A couple of chump blockers should buy plenty of time to get pull ahead with Dig and bombs. Of course, this is all theorycrafting at this point, haven't tested yet.

I would think that a Baneslayer would be a perfect complement to Pyromancer - the things that efficiently answer Pyromancer don't answer Baneslayer and vice versa. Your opponent has the choice of leaving in Plows and just dealing with the tokens (assuming he has Plow!), bringing in Electrickery, Charm, etc and losing to Baneslayer, or having pile of removal in their deck.

That definitely makes sense to me, but I'm not sure how many slots you can use up for Pyromancer. 2? 3?

[Jon]

Sounds like you guys need more plateaus in your deck!

Said that last night, Didnt go over too well. I really think the deck is powerful. The real fisting in all our testing of UR VS UWr Control was Swiftspear.

[phazonmutant]

That definitely makes sense to me, but I'm not sure how many slots you can use up for Pyromancer. 2? 3?

Yeah no idea. I would imagine at least 3 to start? It's much better in multiples, so 4 might just be correct. It's still more compact than the Stoneforge package. I'm thinking of testing this maindeck tonight:

4 Young Pyromancer
1 Baneslayer Angel
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Dig Through Time

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Council's Judgment

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island

It might be the Preordain / Cruise slots should be more removal - this list cuts EE and Clasm but Pyromancer should help control the board. Speaking of EE, it doesn't play very well with Pyromancer - it doesn't make tokens, kills tokens in its most common mode - so I cut it and the Ruins. That leads to the manabase - having a bunch of early red spells in addition to double-white spells is going to make the mana noticeably worse. That's a big reason to not play Council's Judgment, but I think it's worth it. Also based on mana constraints, Pyromancer will be a turn 3-4 play more than turn 2. That led me to include the third Volcanic.

[mote5]

Said that last night, Didnt go over too well. I really think the deck is powerful. The real fisting in all our testing of UR VS UWr Control was Swiftspear.

At times I want to fetch up a Plateau, but with Mountain, Plains, and a utility land already in the deck, Counterspell is a little iffy in the early going. I'd also want to play top with that 4th non blue source.
Bolts help against Swiftspear, but you should initiate that fight on your own turn so if they pump it out of reach, at least it isn't crashing into you as a 3/4. Also, Engineered Explosives is really good in this match up.

[alphastryk]

@Phazonmutant - I really like the look of that list. Council's Judgment is a necessary evil without EE unfortunately.

Edit - once you're fully 3 colors like that, I don't think you can afford a second plains. I'd rather have another fetch I think.

[thefreakaccident]

Has anyone lost because of having pyroblasts vs non-blue opponents game one?

[Svknoe]

It has been bad once or twice. You can often get rid of in some manner. More importantly, it is great versus the good decks. I dislike having them versus elves, but other than that the non-blue decks seem to be good matchups either way. I also play swords to plowshares even if it sucks versus combo. Having two dead pyroblasts versus nonblue decks is mostly fine.

[Jizz]

Nice list phazonmutant. But You will have problems handling a resolved cb or in the elves mu (no moat or sweepers and pierces).
I would do the following changes :
-1 yp -1 jace -2 bolt -1 plains -1 council
+1 misdi +1 forked bolt +1 arid mesa +2 ee +1 Snap

Ee also deals with chalices vial etc, that we might see a bit at the main event. With Yp, academy ruins is indeed less useful.
Bolt stp reb bs pierce cspell and no snap ? :)

The problem with yp is that the meta is wellbprepared against it.

[Holly]

Since everyone starts talking about Pyromancer I give some cents, though take it with a spoon of salt, I hadn't any chance to test for 3-4 weeks now.
But I started with a list featuring 4 Pyromancer back when I first tried this deck (pretty much the same time Carstens article was featured). I chosed those because I wanted to test how much delve cards are actually possible in a single deck.
Simply put: I played 8.
I had no problems casting those, I've never been stuck with to many in my hand (though I did pitch some to the 4 FoW or 2 Misdirections), but I wanted all of them to fuel Pyromancer, specially TC did allowed a lot of comebacks from nothing to Pyromancer -> TC -> StP your Goyf and chump the other 1/2 creatures for a turn.
Anyway to make room for all those I played without Jace. Solely winconditions have been 2 SCM (which were great even with 8 delve cards..and I did flashback some of those aswell) & 4 Pyromancers.

When I have time to playtest more and properly (next week) I'll start with my old list though do some little changes:
a) Cut the Misdirections - I played 2 to protect Pyromancer and as additional counter, I could afford the CDA thanks to 4 TC, 4 DTT but they've pretty much always been lackluster.
b) Going down to 7 delve cards probably, still playing 2 SCM I don't want to hit 10 cards relying on GY since that led to more opponents boarding GY-hate though thats definitly something to be tested.
I don't want to go below 7 because of Pyromancer, to really abuse him you need more spells than you get by DTT.

I could see getting some Jaces in there, I just refused to play him because I just wanted to test the pure powerlevel of Pyromancer & 8 times delve, so I couldn't afford to just win because Jace is Jace.
Anyway I actuall didn't miss him to be quite honest. I'm not sure I really want him, tapping 4 lands sorcery speed is bad for this deck. Its quite possible it's way more powerful to play Pyromancer & hold up Counterspell.
And while one can play Jace with CS backup with 6 lands, one other could Pyromancer into TC with CS & removal/blast backup.
Then again, as just said - a lot of people are preparing for YP making this worse than it could be.
I'd be interested to try out Talrand aswell (adding Moat & 1 Karakas possibly) though he has the same problem as Jace with cmc 4, sorcery speed & blastable). I'm quite sure YP is just more powerful than Talrand despite Nausea effects running around.

[HSCK]

So CalebD just wrote an article about his experiences with the deck and is back on the UR Delver train. I played a few matches last night with BSA and it was fantastic. With a lot of decks going for the dome with burn spells, having lifelink is at a premium. I'm pretty sold on playing this for the forseeable future. Also, protection from demons came in quite handy against Sneak and Show as I could ride BSA and countermagic to the finish. I'm on a super heavy removal version though with 4 StP, 3 Bolt, 2 EE, and 1 Pyroblast.

[klaus]

So CalebD just wrote an article about his experiences with the deck and is back on the UR Delver train. I played a few matches last night with BSA and it was fantastic. With a lot of decks going for the dome with burn spells, having lifelink is at a premium. I'm pretty sold on playing this for the forseeable future. Also, protection from demons came in quite handy against Sneak and Show as I could ride BSA and countermagic to the finish. I'm on a super heavy removal version though with 4 StP, 3 Bolt, 2 EE, and 1 Pyroblast.

Link?

[mote5]

So CalebD just wrote an article about his experiences with the deck and is back on the UR Delver train. I played a few matches last night with BSA and it was fantastic. With a lot of decks going for the dome with burn spells, having lifelink is at a premium. I'm pretty sold on playing this for the forseeable future. Also, protection from demons came in quite handy against Sneak and Show as I could ride BSA and countermagic to the finish. I'm on a super heavy removal version though with 4 StP, 3 Bolt, 2 EE, and 1 Pyroblast.

His hyper aggressive UR list does seem like a mirror breaker.

After doing some playtesting, I agree with his assessment that Treasure Cruise needs to be in higher numbers than previously suggested. DTT is still amazing, but I'm going to test an equal or greater number of Cruises from now until NJ.

I'm in total agreement with going more removal heavy than the original lists. I would love to squeeze some life gain into this deck, but I haven't made room quite yet. Any Stoneforge/Young Pyromancer lists out there?

[HSCK]

Link?

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-the-best-deck-in-legacy-and-modern/

I've been slightly more impressed than I thought I'd be by Treasure Cruise here, but still want to stick to 4 DTT, 1 Cruise.

[Philipp2293]

For people on the heavy manplan of YP and looking for lifegain -> has anybody tested Azorius Charm? At worst (if you don't have guys swinging) it cycles, fueling further Delve spells. Third mode is also not useless.

[alphastryk]

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-the-best-deck-in-legacy-and-modern/

I've been slightly more impressed than I thought I'd be by Treasure Cruise here, but still want to stick to 4 DTT, 1 Cruise.

Agreed. No way I want to go below 4 DTT.

[AnziD]

So why is this deck a better pick for the GP than UR Delver or UWR Stoneblade?

[HSCK]

Probably its ability to beat up on Delver decks and have a strong game against combo on the back of a huge amount of countermagic? Against Blade decks you can leave them with a lot more dead cards than you'll have as well. I think it really comes down to what you want to do, I don't think UR Delver is going to be that impressive in finishes, but it will be a huge part of the field.

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

This definitely feels like the natural progression of the UWR decks:

- start with UWR Delver
- realize that Delvers and Dazes are the worst cards in the deck, replace them with more draw/counters
- end up with UWR Stoneblade
- realize that a bunch of 1-toughness creatures (Clique and Snapcaster) is pretty bad right now, replace them with even more draw/counters
- end up with UWR Delve Control

I'm not sure there's anything to add to speed up the deck's ability to win, although maybe the whole point is that speeding it up leaves the deck with threats that you may not get to play before you get dead from Elemental tokens. I love the BSA idea, although I'm not sure what to cut for it. Maybe the Fire // Ice? Or the Preordain?

[L-Luck]

I think the natural conclusion of the UWR in the current meta is a deck with Young Pyromancer, Stoneforge Mystic, a lot of cheap spells and Delve spells to reload.

[Svknoe]

So why is this deck a better pick for the GP than UR Delver or UWR Stoneblade?

It probably is not a better pick for the GP. UR Delver is probably the best deck in the format. One reason that this deck is probably a worse choice is that the UR Delver match-up seems somewhat bad. Not horrendous, but I think that I would rather be on the UR Delver side of it. I like it against the slower Delver decks, though. I really like the Dig Control deck and have been playing it a lot, but for the GP both of these options are probably stronger.

[Kaslan]

Just finished the 2pm daily with a 4-0 record.
I was testing the list with YP and stoneforge kill. I must say YP is VERY impressive in this deck.

Round 1: mirror (but he had 4 YP) he timed out

Round 2: UWr delver
game 1 I kill him with Batterskull
game 2 he kills me with Jace
game 3 he times out but I think I had the lead.

Round 3: ANT
game 1 I land an early YP and counter all of he's spells
game 2 he lands a carpet of flowers and a Xantid Swarm but I EE his board and he scoops after he duress's my hand and see : 3x force of will, 2 counterspell, and 1 spell pierce

Round 4: Miracles
Game 1 I counter his first counterbalance, land a YP make 5 tokens and ride them to victory
Game 2 we play draw go for 5 or 6 turns then I start to take the lead with dig's and cruise's. I kill him with Batterskull.

List:
2 stoneforge
2 pyromancer

4 force of will
4 ponder
4 preordain
4 swords to plowshares
4 dig through time
2 tresure cruise
2 engeneered explosives
1 pyroblast
2 spell pierce
1 batterskull
3 counterspell

1 academy ruins
10 fetch land
4 island
1 plain
2 volcanic island
3 tundra

[Svknoe]

Good job! 4-0ing with pyromancer is interesting. Should there be 4 brainstorms in that list?

[Kaslan]

Good job! 4-0ing with pyromancer is interesting. Should there be 4 brainstorms in that list?

ehhh oups! ya 4 brainstorms :tongue:

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

It probably is not a better pick for the GP. UR Delver is probably the best deck in the format. One reason that this deck is probably a worse choice is that the UR Delver match-up seems somewhat bad. Not horrendous, but I think that I would rather be on the UR Delver side of it. I like it against the slower Delver decks, though. I really like the Dig Control deck and have been playing it a lot, but for the GP both of these options are probably stronger.

Can you elaborate on why you feel this is? I feel like the EE/Academy lock is really solid as long as you can live that long, and while the matchup is probably bad game 1, it improves a lot game 2 with the Jaces out and the sweepers/Baneslayer in, doesn't it?

[Svknoe]

Living that long is sometimes a problem. I like the sweepers in sideboard, but I havn't tried the baneslayer yet. The UR Delver deck is very good, and it seems to me that it is slightly in their favour. It might depend on the build, though.

[Mackan]

Living that long is sometimes a problem. I like the sweepers in sideboard, but I havn't tried the baneslayer yet. The UR Delver deck is very good, and it seems to me that it is slightly in their favour. It might depend on the build, though.

May I suggest 2 thopter foundry and a sword of the meek somewhere in the 75?

[klaus]

I'm currently testing a speedier version of this deck, as S. Verdict / Moat seem to be too slow at times, and make it hard to keep counterspell mana open. Plus Bolts and Pyroclasms fill the yard quicker. The list below is more geared towards a UR-infested meta.

For reference:

4 BS
4 Ponder
4 DTT

4 STP
2 Bolt

2 EE
2 Pyroclasm
1 Supreme Verdict

4 FoW
3 CS
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast

3 Jace
1 Elspeth, Knights Errant (testing)
1 Baneslayer Angel (yes, you read this correctly, I'm giving her a shot atm)

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa ---------------> odd choice, 11 fetches, will figure out if that's the way to go
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains

SB:
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Pyroclasm
3 Vendilion Clique
2 REB
1 Needle
2 Rest in Peace
1 Wear/Tear
2 Hydroblast
1 Pulse of the Fields (yeah.. odd old-school choice, but against RU, Burn etc. Baneslayer is too slow more often than not)
1 Flusterstorm

[Madsk]

As main deck goes i find this deck amazing (limited testing) have done a few games vs bug, rug and a MUD chalice deck.

What trubles me is boarding, for referance:
Md:
1 engineered explosives
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 swords to plowshares
2 sensei's devining top
2 flusterstorm
2 pyroblast
3 counterspell
1 council of judgement
1 entreat the angels
4 jace the mindsculptor
3 supreme verdict
4 force of will
4 dig true time
3 volcanic island
3 tundra
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
2 arid mesa
3 island
2 plains

Sb:
3 clique
3 cb
1 wear//tear
2 reb
1 baneslayer
3 pyroclasm
2 rest in peace

When playing vs the bug deck i didnt bother to board anything. Not sure if its correct thought, but i felt 2 blast from the main was enough (his deck became mostly green/black after board Clique and Jace as the most important) and i didnt want to give him targets for his abrupt, so i dropped the Cliques. Maybe i could add the singel Wear//Tear for possible Pithing Needle to protect my Jace, sdt and EE. Weakest card preboard was my 2 Flusterstorms but keeped them as well because of discard and the possible counterwar over a Jace or TC from him. Best part was that i didnt notice any big difference postboard.

Vs the tradisional Canadian rug list i had alot more cards that could upgrade my deck and felt few cards was bad. Preboard i felt i played a totalt different game than him because of the DTT's, post board Jace gets alot worse, and i tried boarding in CB's RiP's and Pyroclasm's. My problem was takeing out cards but tried 4 DTT because of RiP and 2 Jace and 2 force. This is ofcourse very few games but all of a sudden i felt i lost my edge. RiP was not the total blow out i thought because he could stifle the trigger so cards in the gy stayed. So my hopefull plan with Pyroclasm as a sweeper even for Goyf didnt last long. CB is ofcourse a HOUSE, but atm i only play 2 sdt's. Tbh im not 100% sure what to do here, when im playing Miracles i board out all 3 Jaces, but here my only wincon left then is a singel Entreat.

Vs the MUD deck with chalice, atleast it was easy to take in and out cards 2 blasts and 2 Flusterstorms for 3 Clique and a Wear//Tear. If we cut them off metalworker and them playing more than one "big" spell a turn, we have lots of "timewalk's in our deck and win easy with Jace


Im not sure i want RiP in my 75, Maybe make room for 2 Grafdiggers Cage and 1 Surgical Extraction. Would still protect me vs Punishing Fire and most gy basen decks, while i can play my best spell DTT.
To bad there was no UR- Delver players at the shop to day.

[Snief]

I'm currently testing a speedier version of this deck, as S. Verdict / Moat seem to be too slow at times, and make it hard to keep counterspell mana open. Plus Bolts and Pyroclasms fill the yard quicker. The list below is more geared towards a UR-infested meta.

For reference:

4 BS
4 Ponder
4 DTT

4 STP
2 Bolt

2 EE
2 Pyroclasm
1 Supreme Verdict

4 FoW
3 CS
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast

3 Jace
1 Elspeth, Knights Errant (testing)
1 Baneslayer Angel (yes, you read this correctly, I'm giving her a shot atm)

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa ---------------> odd choice, 11 fetches, will figure out if that's the way to go
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains

SB:
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Pyroclasm
3 Vendilion Clique
2 REB
1 Needle
2 Rest in Peace
1 Wear/Tear
2 Hydroblast
1 Pulse of the Fields (yeah.. odd old-school choice, but against RU, Burn etc. Baneslayer is too slow more often than not)
1 Flusterstorm

Tested this list today against high tide, burg and grixis Delver and...it is really good! The only thing i didnt like was the Elspeth because she was too slow or not needed at all (except one game against Burg where Moat or sth else would have won also). I think you need sth in that slot which wins in the spot or is easier to cast.

[Chaam]

I think this is the list I've settled on testing after GP NJ (Going to be playing Stoneblade for the GP since it's what I've been playing for the last couple months)

Sorceries (8)
4 Ponder
1 Pyroclasm
1 Council's Judgement
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Treasure Cruise

Instants (26)
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
4 Counterspell
1 Fire // Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Dig Through Time

Artifacts (1)
1 Engineered Explosives

Planeswalkers (4)
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (21)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas

Sideboard (15)
1 Path to Exile
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Pithing Needle
1 Wear // Tear
1 Hydroblast
1 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm
2 Containment Priest
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Council's Judgement
1 Supreme Verdict

[klaus]

Tested this list today against high tide, burg and grixis Delver and...it is really good! The only thing i didnt like was the Elspeth because she was too slow or not needed at all (except one game against Burg where Moat or sth else would have won also). I think you need sth in that slot which wins in the spot or is easier to cast.

Yes, I feel the same about her tbh. She does shine in Control MUs though. Finding the right (combination of) finisher(s) is one of the main things this deck will have to determine. Ultimately the optimal choice is dictated by the meta, which is why Batterskull or BSA can be found in several lists, as combining a finisher with a lifelink effect is efficient. More often than not you will find your life total between 1 & 3 aka Bolt range so there has to be a way to DIG :cool: yourself out of that hole.

[Madsk]

Scenario, you keep a hand with 2 fetchlands and atleast 1 cantrip. And you think opponent plays wasteland.
How do you fetch and plan your games as it could be critual to get to Supreme Verdict. But at the same time it turn off alot of flexebility if we only fetch basic.

Just intrested in what other think, since i might play to much around wasteland my self

Ideel i go
Island, Island, plains and what ever, but a Stp or Pyroblast thats need casting early can mess that up.

[klaus]

Scenario, you keep a hand with 2 fetchlands and atleast 1 cantrip. And you think opponent plays wasteland.
How do you fetch and plan your games as it could be critual to get to Supreme Verdict. But at the same time it turn off alot of flexebility if we only fetch basic.

Just intrested in what other think, since i might play to much around wasteland my self

Ideel i go
Island, Island, plains and what ever, but a Stp or Pyroblast thats need casting early can mess that up.

This is a rather complex decision tree, involving numerous aspects that make a critical difference as the early game progresses - depending on what your opponent is on, what early threats he casts, what cards (especially cantrips/land) you draw, etc.

Going for Island as step 1 should be a no-brainer, since getting your first land wasted hurts most usually. Taking it from there, it's hard to apply rules of thumb.

Sidenote: I tend to go for non-basic lands against Goblins and D&T, to prevent being cut off colors via Ports.

[Madsk]

Paradox is thats easyer to cut you off colours when you play safe (fetch basics).
Read an article that best answer to Wasteland was more duals. That said i feel i lose to Wasteland, atleast in this deck will i think it comes up more than in miracles as we need dobbel plains for Supreme rather than only plains for Terminus.

So maybe that conclude none basics are better here than in miracles
Edit: totally agree that basic Island first is a no brainer

[klaus]

Do you guys know of anyone who took a GoldDigger-style deck to GP NJ?
Would be nice to hear some findings.

The top 16 looks like GD would have fared nicely at the top tables:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=11/15/2014&end_date=11/16/2014&start=1&finish=16&event_ID=3&city=Edison

[alphastryk]

Do you guys know of anyone who took a GoldDigger-style deck to GP NJ?
Would be nice to hear some findings.

The top 16 looks like GD would have fared nicely at the top tables:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=11/15/2014&end_date=11/16/2014&start=1&finish=16&event_ID=3&city=Edison

I played the same list I've posted a few pages back and failed to make day 2 (dropped at 4-3). I'll have a more detailed report up tomorrow.

[HSCK]

I think BBD's variant could pose quite a few issues as it has so many ways to win through one creature.

[Spigore]

Played Alphastryk's list last Sunday at the Dutch Open Legacy Championships.
Cutting the two Containment Priest for two Surgical Extraction due to availability.

R1 0-2 Sneaky Show
G1: Keeping a decent 7, I Counterspell his eot (5) Dig Through Time. Obviously he threw it at me as bait. As I didn't knew what deck he was playing (I didn't see anything else but cantrips and closed fetches). Next turn he played his maindeck Through the Breach for Emrakul. I DTT for countermagic after he FoWs my FoW but find nothing.
G2: After some agressive sideboarding, I unfortunately had to mull to 5, finding no lands in previous hands. He turn 2-3 goes for it.

R2 1-0-1 Mono Red Burn (no Eidolon)
G1: He turn 1 Goblin Guides me, which drew me a nice couple of early game extra cards. Unfortunately his draws are much better than mine and he gets me before I can settle down on finding countermagic for each of his topdecks.
G2: Another turn 1 Goblin Guide gives me a few free draws. Fending off his early spells with countermagic, I put down Nyx-Fleece Ram and DTT into another one. Two of these sweethearts live long enough to gain some insane amouth of life. I slam a Jace, which goes ultimate for the win.
G3: Nyx-Fleece Ram is too sweet in this match. Early game countering and deploying these get me there. Jace starts fatesealing. Pyroclasm removes his Vexing Shusher so I can continue countering.
Unfortunately this very friendly player was very new at Legacy. His turns were taking a bit too long for me to end this game.

R3 0-2 Death & Taxes (Leonin Arbiter, Ghost Quarter)
G1: Early game double Wasteland and Aven Mindsensor screw my mana. I recover my manabase but can't turn the game in my favor. Eventually Moat an Jace were on the table. He Flickerwhisps my Moat and he swings in with two creatures.
G2: Pyroclasm trades nicely 2 for 1 and 3 for 1. He puts beats in with Spirit of the Lab with SoFI equipped. Slamming down Moat stalls the game but he finds another Wisp.

R4 0-2 BG Homebrew Junk (Sinkhole, Ports, Urborg + Spreading Algae)
G1: Somehow he gets there with an early Wasteland and a Sinkhole. Crop Rotation into two copies of Rishadan Port lock me out of the game.
G2: Opponent drops down Urborg and Spreading Algae on my basic Island as I was ready to nuke his manabase with Blood Moon. I Clique him eot, putting the Algae back in his hand and removing it. Clique downs him to 3 life but his topdeck Deathrite Shamans stay alive too long. I didn't find any lands to properly get back in the game.

R5 1-0-1 Maverick (with Kitchen Finks)
G1: This match is awesome. After a couble of turns, he goes for a Green Sun Zenith for X=2 to search for this Quasali Pridemage. I clasm going 3 for 1, taking Kitchen Finks and Noble Hiërarch along with the Pridemage. Slammed Moat afterwards. Jace goes down a few turns later and rides it to ultimate. Although the game was very long, there was no point I felt out of control.
G2: His board was nuked, I try to sneak in a Baneslayer without counter backup to steal the game as he didn't see it game 1. He had a Plowshares in hand though. Jace goes down bouncing his drops. I cantrip and DTT for a 2nd Jace, put it down with a hand full of countermagic, but there wasn't enough time to seal the game.

R6 0-2 Goblins
G1: Cantripping, DTT, TC get me nothing but countermagic. Academy Ruins and Engineered Explosives somehow doesn't feel like the answer here. The CMC of the little fellas was too much spread out to be effective.
G2: Another horrible match of finding no bananas. He revealed Stingscourger through his Ringleader. At some point I had to put it down to not lose the match. Clasm-ing his board, trading 3 for 1 and 2 for wasnt enough to get going.

First time I ever played the deck and a very poor result, I honestly enjoyed it a lot and felt insanely powerful.
Surgical Extraction definately has to be replaced by Containment Priest.
Nyx-Fleece Ram is way too awesome in this deck.
The DTT and cantrip engine is very sweet, though sometimes I failed in finding me the right card to get the game.
Moat is definately a truely powerful card in this deck.

It took me too long to stabilize the board and take it to my advantage. Maybe the deck should improve this, somehow.
Though my playstyle was very fast, I didn't feel I made some major errors. Opponents tend to think a lot on their own turns about how to beat this deck.
Definately will keep playing this and test against the DTB's.

[Purgatory]

I had everything needed for the deck, sans 2 DTT, which I could easily trade for, so I sleeved up a version of this and gave it a spin at my local monday evening tournament. Here's the result (blog post):

http://goyfwars.wordpress.com/2014/11/19/digging-for-gold-in-local-tournament/

[kiblast]

For those of you running Moat, have you considered running two? Vs Elves, Goblins, Pyromancer.deck is golden. The thing is that never mind which win condition you are using, either you find Moat as soon as possible (as a lock piece) or after Supreme Verdict they will be able to rebuild a board position before you can kill them. Even Baneslayer, which theorycally can be game breaking vs swarm decks, is easily answered when they need to push the last damages (by block +sacrificing/bolting/bouncing the blocked creature, and all of the three decks mentioned above can do that really easily).

Edit. As a lock piece EE Ruins should be fine as well

[Tormod]

I tested the list before jersey after reading Carsten and Durwoods article. I went 1-3-1 at a local. I had trouble against fast decks and finding action at times. I also found that if one of my delve spells was countered, other delve spells would get locked in my hand. Suffice to say, this wasn't my deck choice for Jersey.

[alphastryk]

For those of you running Moat, have you considered running two? Vs Elves, Goblins, Pyromancer.deck is golden. The thing is that never mind which win condition you are using, either you find Moat as soon as possible (as a lock piece) or after Supreme Verdict they will be able to rebuild a board position before you can kill them. Even Baneslayer, which theorycally can be game breaking vs swarm decks, is easily answered when they need to push the last damages (by block +sacrificing/bolting/bouncing the blocked creature, and all of the three decks mentioned above can do that really easily).

Edit. As a lock piece EE Ruins should be fine as well

I've definitely considered a second Moat. I would not cut Baneslayer though - you need enough ways to win.

Sorry for the delay, but here's my report from GP NJ:

Rd 1 - BYE

(1-0)

Rd 2 - ANT (With Burning Wish)
He kept a no-lander and cantripped a few times off Petals, while never managing to do much else in game 1 other than therapy me, so I actually thought he was TES after game one and brought in my Blue Blasts which turned out to be great against his Burning Wishes anyway.

(2-0, 2-0)

Rd 3 - Jund
His 2 maindeck Chains really slowed me down in game one, and I wasn't able to find Baneslayer before Punishing Fire killed me.
Game 2 he was stuck on only one colored source after I plowed his Deathrite, but I wasn't in a position to really punish him for it, and he eventually drew out of it.

(2-1, 2-2)

Rd 4 - UWR stoneblade
I win a long, grindy game 1 by finally finding Pyroblast for his Jace at 13 counters, then eventually ultimate my Jace. We start game 2 with about 12 minutes left and do not finish another game. When time is called, my opponent concedes.

(3-1, 4-2)

Rd 5 - Death & Taxes (green splash for Teeg)
I win game one pretty convincingly, never letting him get established. Game 2 he's able to establish Teeg + Karakas + Mom and I can never recover after drawing 3 Digs , Jace, and Verdict.
Game 3 I get Moat out with FoW x2, Counterspell and I'm feeling pretty good about things. He O-Rings, I Force. He O-Rings again, I Counterspell. I draw Brainstorm, fire it off, and miss on anything of relevance, playing a fetch. He untaps and plays his one Council's Judgment. Well then. Things go downhill from there.

(3-2, 5-4)

Rd 6 - UWR Stoneblade (again!)
I win a long game one, he wins a long game 2 (1 minute left in the round). I point out there is not time for another game, and a draw would put us both out. My opponent is fortunately willing to concede.

(4-2, 6-5)

RD 7 - UR Delver
Hey - here it is - the first delver deck I've seen all day! ... and I mulligan to 5 in both games :( I lose game 1 with Baneslayer in play but he has enough burn to kill me from 5 life. Ugh.

Dead. Dropped. (4-3, 6-7)

I felt like the deck was fine - and importantly, I don't think Miracles (my other default choice) would have done any better against when I faced.

I don't want to make any changes just yet, but I do want to try out a Pyromancer list at some point.

[kiblast]

I've definitely considered a second Moat. I would not cut Baneslayer though - you need enough ways to win.



I wasn't advocating 2nd Moat in place of a Baneslayer, but a 2nd Moat in general.

[HammerAndSickled]

Playing this list tomorrow in Richmond:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Council's Judgment
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins

I added the one Snapcaster to rebuy the spells that matter most in certain matchups: sometimes I wanted a second CJ or SV or Pyroblast, and this is kind of a cop-out answer to that. It makes you delve more "responsibly" sometimes but in the very late games you can Jace bounce him and have a good pick of spells to abuse. The mana base was also a painful consideration; I wanted 21 lands, including 10 fetch, basic Mountain, Academy Ruins, and Karakas. That left only 8 spots, so I had to trim the 3rd Tundra and Island. I hope it doesn't bite me in the ass at some point.

Sideboard is currently:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Wear/Tear
2 Pyroclasm
2 Containment Priest
1 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Counterspell
1 Back to Basics
1 Council's Judgment
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Baneslayer Angel

Subject to change between now and 9 AM. I have a sneaking suspicion Smelt is better than Wear/Tear. My brother pointed out the only 2 Enchantments that we care about that see play in any capacity are Counterbalance and Sulfuric Vortex. Against Counterbalance it's likely our Wear/Tear can just get countered and Pyroblast does the same thing as Tear, and I'm not boarding Wear/Tear against decks with Vortex anyway. Sneak Attack/Omniscience are corner cases but I have enough hate for them already. Also, not sure if I even need Surgical Extraction. No graveyard decks are doing well at all, and the ones that I can expect like Dredge and Reanimator fold to Containment Priest and countermagic. I might be better served with a white Leyline or something. Thoughts?

[ESG]

Subject to change between now and 9 AM. I have a sneaking suspicion Smelt is better than Wear/Tear. My brother pointed out the only 2 Enchantments that we care about that see play in any capacity are Counterbalance and Sulfuric Vortex. Against Counterbalance it's likely our Wear/Tear can just get countered and Pyroblast does the same thing as Tear, and I'm not boarding Wear/Tear against decks with Vortex anyway. Sneak Attack/Omniscience are corner cases but I have enough hate for them already. Also, not sure if I even need Surgical Extraction. No graveyard decks are doing well at all, and the ones that I can expect like Dredge and Reanimator fold to Containment Priest and countermagic. I might be better served with a white Leyline or something. Thoughts?

Wear/Tear is better when you have Counterbalance, since it counts as a 1 AND a 2. I wouldn't play Smelt. Unless you have byes somehow, you have to make it through the early rounds, where you can get paired against something random, like Enchantress or Leylines or a Helm/RIP deck. In a big tournament, I would always go with cards with greater utility. On Surgical Extraction, it never huts to have extra hate cards against Dredge and Reanimator (or to be able to Extract Show and Tells or something if you win an early counterwar). Reanimator, especially, can have very fast draws that punch through FOW, and not all lists play Show and Tell postboard.

[HammerAndSickled]

Thing is, I have CJ for random enchantments anyway. I'm not exactly afraid of Enchantress, and if I don't have more countermagic in my deck than some random Helm/RiP deck post board with 13 counterspells then I should probably be playing a different deck, haha. The argument that more grace hate is always welcome is understood, especially with Snapcaster. Just always trying to make sure those slots get as much use as possible.

[kiblast]

Smelt? Why would you ever cut a card that does two things, and play one that does just half of the job? You need disenchant effects. So I'd go with good ol' Disenchant or Wear Tear. And I'm not even advocating the fuse effect (it ''dodges'' counterbalance as the casting cost becomes 3, you just need opponent to have Sensei's in play so you have two legal targets, and they normally have just 3-5 cc3 costs). But overall utility Wear//Tear is just plain better imho. Needles, Chokes, Vials, Chains of Mephistopheles (people are maindecking them lately) Sulfuric Vortex (I think you should worry about Vortex more, as when it lands you basically loose, you can't race it, and people playing UR know this) Wear//Tear handles them all.

On a side note, has anyone thought of Thopter Foundry as a possible win con? It's synergistic with Moat, better than Baneslayer, and you basically need 1-2 Enlightened Tutor (it also finds Moat!) to set it- considering the 5 Delve spells and 10 cantrips you should be able find it easily.

[DuKeLiO]

Finally I played this deck in a tournament after some test sessions. I started with Kotter's build cutting 2nd TC to sixty cards. List is sweet and I like playing Stoneforge and Batterskull because recursion and lifegain. I build a sideboard:

1 Tomrod's Crypt
2 Wear/Tear
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Flusterstorm
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Containment Priest
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Blood Moon

I think I would do some changes for my next tournamente because I think the deck is weak against some 2cc cards so I think it is better to play 2 Spell Snare instead Spell Pierce. Cards like Young Pyromancer, Stoneforge Mystic or Dark Confidant are problematic and Spell Snare matters almost in every matchup except Show'n'Tell. So I will exchage them.
Also I'm not sure about Treasure Cruise. I like to have five drawers in some matchups, but I also think to play at least one Supreme Veredict maindeck. I'm not sure if play it instead Treasure Cruise or 2nd MisD.

The Baneslayer + Moat/SFM + BSkull is a good debate. Against UR I think Baneslayer has his merits, and they often side in Smash to Smitheress, but against UWR Batterskull is far better because they play Swords to Plowshares. Baneslayer also gets better against UWR playing misD, and I like play two, so maybe I will try the other option. If only Treasure Cruise were "target player"...
Also Batterskull is faster sealing games because is tutorable and has more sinergy with the deck it self, being more resilient due to Academy Ruins.

[Purgatory]

Played the deck in another small local Monday night tournament.

Link to my blog with the report: Click! (https://goyfwars.wordpress.com/2014/11/25/doing-the-digging-again/)

[klaus]

@Kiblast:
Fusing Wear/Tear on CB+Top to make the CMC 3 and possibly get around CB that way won't work, as Top becomes an invalid target once your opponent flips it, filzzling W/T in consequence, since all targets of a spell must be valid upon resolution.
That being said: I've been fusing W/T quite a bit recently and still advocate it no matter if you're running CJ or not.
--> Edit: forget what I wrote there.

@HammerAndSickled:
Smelt is not an option imo - you're forgetting Choke, which we do care about quite a bit in fact. Being able to cast W/T at :w: is very nice here.
How did the event go for you?

@DukeliO:
Spell Pierce was always lackluster in this deck imo, as there's no mana denial and just two copies won't allow you to reliably see them in the early game. The cards it used to shine against (e. g. in early 2014 Miracles), have receded in numbers (Lili, CB) too, plus 2 MD EE, which I'm advocating handle those conveniently.*
For everything else Flusterstorm is clearly better. The Storm mechanic maintains its impact even during the mid-game.

*Edit: @ Purgatory: glad you came to the same conclusion. Apart from Pyroblast, the MD is all about Swiss Army knifing opponents, and EE is hard to beat at that.

[Holly]

@Kiblast:
Fusing Wear/Tear on CB+Top to make the CMC 3 and possibly get around CB that way won't work, as Top becomes an invalid target once your opponent flips it, filzzling W/T in consequence, since all targets of a spell must be valid upon resolution.

Thats not true. A spell with multiple targets will do as much as possible if one of those targets cease to exits/becomes illegal for any reason.

[klaus]

Thats not true. A spell with multiple targets will do as much as possible if one of those targets cease to exits/becomes illegal for any reason.

I just double-checked, and you're right! Looks like I shouldn't have trusted that guy on the internet afterall...

[kiblast]

Is Treasure Cruise really better than Fact or Fiction in this deck?

Treasure:
-costs 1-3 normally
-sorcery speed
-always digs 3
-+2 ca
-sometimes is a dead draw (for example if you just casted DDT and your grave is empty)

Fact:
-costs always 4
-instant speed
-always digs 5
-+0/+3 ca
-fuels DDT
-it's never a dead draw, but it's more subject to taxing counters
-+1000 style points because you are casting eotfofyl like 6 years ago, plus looks better in foil because old borders.

To me Fact is miles better here (see last point)

[cuthbertthecat]

Hi everyone!

I plan on streaming with this deck in a few days once I get paid and can buy the cards I'm missing, this is the list I've been testing in paper and will be starting with (every time I play it I try to change a few cards around because there are so many flex slots, so the list is in no means set in stone)

3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa

4 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
1 Slice and Dice
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
2 Sudden Shock
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
2 Pyroblast
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Fire//Ice
1 Moat
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Preordain
2 Treasure Cruise

Sideboard

2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Wear//Tear

There's a huge list of cards I want to try in this deck; this list is focused on beating up Delver decks, namely U/R.

[Purgatory]

It'll be very interesting to see the stream once it's up! :)

There are some card choices in your list I don't quite agree with, but I just picked this thing up too and won't argue anything. Introducing the deck with some explanation, especially regarding Slice and Dice and Sudden Shock would be great, imo.

[klaus]

Is Treasure Cruise really better than Fact or Fiction in this deck?

This is a no-brainer for me: TC is miles ahead of FoF. Here is why:

* BS, Ponder & DTT (+ Jace) offer more than enough digging to find the cards you need, mitigating FoF's filter effect.
* Ponder & DTT find BS --> BS (+ Jace) shuffle away the suboptimal cards you draw with TC, making the raw C/A shine.
* Most of the time you'll be able to cast it for <4 // sidenote: I don't recommend going beyond 6 delve spells ever and in Fact run merely 5 atm.
* More often than not I find myself casting DTT on my turn, as I'm pressured to find answers asap, or seize the time window while my opponent is tapped out - so the Instant VS. Sorcery speed doesn't have a tremendous weight imo.

[cuthbertthecat]

It'll be very interesting to see the stream once it's up! :)

There are some card choices in your list I don't quite agree with, but I just picked this thing up too and won't argue anything. Introducing the deck with some explanation, especially regarding Slice and Dice and Sudden Shock would be great, imo.

Yeah, I'm not 100% sold on all of the choices in my list, I just wanna give them a shot. I've actually liked sudden shock a lot; its great in pretty much every creature matchup right now. The slice and dice is a bit more...dicey, but I like that its an uncounterable way to clean up the mess that Young Pyromancer makes while also being great vs elves and death and taxes. And, its not unreasonable to hardcast it.