Eternal Weekend Legacy Top 8

[ironclad8690]

2 UR Delver
2 URW Delver
1 BUG Delver
1 RUG Delver
1 UB Tezzeret
1 Punishing Maverick

Well color me impressed.

Anyone have any thoughts on meta direction, or is this just what people sort of "thought would happen"? Props to Maverick and Tezz.

Here is the link to the top 8 profiles: http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/eternalweekend14/legacytop8profiles

Friendly Mod Reminder: Keep discussion of whether certain cards should or should not be banned in the Banned and Restricted List Discussion thread.

[Barook]

MTGO is completely overrun with (UR) Delver decks, too. ~30% of the placing decks are Delver decks right now, with UR being the most popular variant, with the numbers only increasing.

And we also got got a taste where the meta is heading on stream, where most of the rounds where either Delver vs something or Delver mirrors.

I don't think the meta direction the format is currently taking is a healthy one. We might see TC being banned at least in Modern and Legacy.

I'm also suprised that D&T wasn't placing, since it's pretty good in that kind of meta, despite TC being overpowered.

[sdematt]

MTGO is completely overrun with (UR) Delver decks, too. ~30% of the placing decks are Delver decks right now, with UR being the most popular variant, with the numbers

And we also got got a taste where the meta is heading on stream, where most of the rounds where either Delver vs something or Delver mirrors.

I don't think the meta direction the format is currently taking is a healthy one. We might see TC being banned at least in Modern and Legacy.

I'm also suprised that D&T wasn't placing, since it's pretty good in that kind of meta, despite TC being overpowered.

I hope the UB Tezzerator deck creams these Delver decks into the ground.

-Matt

[Bobmans]

Props to Nate and Zach for playing awesome decks.

[ironclad8690]

Maverick list has 2 Domri Rade, 1 Voice of Resurgence, no black splash (!), and a Tabernacle in the sideboard.

[Zombie]

MTGO is completely overrun with (UR) Delver decks, too. ~30% of the placing decks are Delver decks right now, with UR being the most popular variant, with the numbers only increasing.

And we also got got a taste where the meta is heading on stream, where most of the rounds where either Delver vs something or Delver mirrors.

I don't think the meta direction the format is currently taking is a healthy one. We might see TC being banned at least in Modern and Legacy.

I'm also suprised that D&T wasn't placing, since it's pretty good in that kind of meta, despite TC being overpowered.

But it isn't actually a problem because nonblue decks placed and there are many ways to play Cruise Delver. Many different Cruise Delver decks is the important thing, right?

[Dice_Box]

Does anyone have a link to the lists?

[LOLWut]

But it isn't actually a problem because nonblue decks placed and there are many ways to play Cruise Delver. Many different Cruise Delver decks is the important thing, right?

All those 3 Delvers in Ovino's Top 36. Resistance is futile.

[Vicar in a tutu]

Just a hypothetical question: If Treasure Cruise were banned, do you think the delver-decks would just jam 4 Dig Through Time and still be almost as powerful and ubiquitous?

[Gheizen64]

I'd find it hilarious if TC were banned and not BS when Survival was banned and not Vengevine. WotC reasoning at its finest really.

[SirTylerGalt]

Does anyone have a link to the lists?

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/eternalweekend14/legacy-championship-top-8-decklists-2014-10-25

[Barook]

Does anyone have a link to the lists?
Here you go. (http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/eternalweekend14/legacy-championship-top-8-decklists-2014-10-25)


All those 3 Delvers in Ovino's Top 36. Resistance is futile.
The meta is evolving rapidly. UR is already on par with Miracles on MTGO, and likely to overtake it really soon. People are quickly catching up how stupid good TC is.


I'd find it hilarious if TC were banned and not BS when Survival was banned and not Vengevine. WotC reasoning at its finest really.
Both are problematic in my opinion. And the situation is hardly comparable.

[bruizar]

Maverick list has 2 Domri Rade, 1 Voice of Resurgence, no black splash (!), and a Tabernacle in the sideboard.
I guess this is my 'told you so' moment.

Not surprised by Domri Rade's effectiveness. Domri Rade was always a good planeswalker, but the entire source community was against it. The card draws and destroys creatures for 3 mana; that's good. Just because you have to build your deck around it doesn't mean it sucks. Interesting note is that the other non-delver deck in the top 8 also builds around a narrow planeswalker, namely Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas.

[Barook]

I guess this is my 'told you so' moment.

Not surprised by Domri Rade's effectiveness. Domri Rade was always a good planeswalker, but the entire source community was against it. The card draws and destroys creatures for 3 mana; that's good. Just because you have to build your deck around it doesn't mean it sucks. Interesting note is that the other non-delver deck in the top 8 also builds around a narrow planeswalker, namely Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas.
The suprising thing is that he only runs only 21 creatures and no Sylvan Library to set it up.

I wonder how good a single Courser of Kruphix would be here. Seems good with Domri and stupid good with all the fetches/KotR shuffle effects.

[bruizar]

Courser of Kruphix sounds good with Domri Rade indeed. in addition to the obvious synergy with Domri Rade, the life gain looks very relevant with decks like Delver becoming more and more burn-centric.

[DLifshitz]

I'm also suprised that D&T wasn't placing, since it's pretty good in that kind of meta, despite TC being overpowered.

UR Delver is a difficult matchup for D&T. And all that hate against the various Delver decks (Forked Bolt, Golgari Charm and whatnot) also hits D&T very hard.

[Barook]

UR Delver is a difficult matchup for D&T. And all that hate against the various Delver decks (Forked Bolt, Golgari Charm and whatnot) also hits D&T very hard.
Then why is Bahra with D&T stomping the shit out of them? That doesn't compute. He's currently doing very well in the dailies.

E.g. in yesterday's DE, he went 4-0, facing UR Delver 3x in the first three rounds (and went 6-1 overall against them) and Sneak & Show in the last one.

Forked Bolt is a new hate card, but D&T players already build their deck with TNN hate in mind.

[bruizar]

I think Electrickery is better than forked bolt because it kills swarms of Young Pyromancer tokens as well as TNN, unflipped delvers and elves.dec. It can't kill a 2 toughness creature though.

[Megadeus]

Zealous Persecution > All. Nice TNN. Nice Mother ofRunes

[Barook]

I think Electrickery is better than forked bolt because it kills swarms of Young Pyromancer tokens as well as TNN, unflipped delvers and elves.dec. It can't kill a 2 toughness creature though.
Electrickery is a good card, but you can't kill TNN with damage since it has protection.

Edit: Stream is back, UZ Tezzeret is out: :frown:

http://www.twitch.tv/cardtitan

[DLifshitz]

Then why is Bahra with D&T stomping the shit out of them? That doesn't compute. He's currently doing very well in the dailies.


He's a very good player, and it seems that lately he's been gunning for UR Delver with 2x Gut Shot in the SB, and also Cop: Red. I'm not sure if this sideboard strategy would translate well to the paper metagame, and I don't know if it mattered at all in this particular event, but it's always an option.

Overall, though, the impression I'm getting is probably closer to this:


I never though this is such a good matchup! Forked bolt is INSANE here!! Forked all threats

than D&T stomping the shit out of them on a regular basis.

[Barook]

Overall, though, the impression I'm getting is probably closer to this:

than D&T stomping the shit out of them on a regular basis.
They run 1-2 copies at best right now. If they run a full playset, it could become more problematic.

[btm10]

I'm usually against bannings, but TC probably needs to go. And while I hate hate hate Maverick, I'm glad he won his top 8 match.

[Humphrey]

another ban tread again? ur(x) delver is just the flavor of the month, because its all new and shiny. in a few month the meta will settle, with some minor adaptions to tc. like more oozes or leylines in sideboards.

[sdematt]

another ban tread again? ur(x) delver is just the flavor of the month, because its all new and shiny. in a few month the meta will settle, with some minor adaptions to tc. like more oozes or leylines in sideboards.

So what were the final standings of the Legacy Top 8?

-Matt

[iamajellydonut]

UR Delver won. I don't know about the rest.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

If TC means that maverick can top 8 tournaments, then this card needs to stay :3

Nah, but all this tells me is that TC has changed the meta from "you can play any delver variant you want" to "play delver"

I feel Delver is far more of a problem than TC, but TC is likely going to be the card that goes in any case if something needs to be banned

[Quasim0ff]

If TC means that maverick can top 8 tournaments, then this card needs to stay :3

Nah, but all this tells me is that TC has changed the meta from "you can play any delver variant you want" to "play delver"

I feel Delver is far more of a problem than TC, but TC is likely going to be the card that goes in any case if something needs to be banned

Delver is in no way a problem. If you disagree, you should follow the european metagame..

[Mr Miagi]

I'm always astonished how delver performs great in USA meta, but in Europe, although it's still a card to watch, is in no way as oppressive as it seems in the states.

Not really sure how to explain this. :eyebrow:

[Ellomdian]

1 Helm Leyline Brew

Where Brew = Pretty standard UB Tezz Shell. Gratz to Zach for T8'ing and having success with his list - have already updated the primer he mentioned with his list :)

[Nuke is Good]

I'm always astonished how delver performs great in USA meta, but in Europe, although it's still a card to watch, is in no way as oppressive as it seems in the states.

Not really sure how to explain this. :eyebrow:

It's more of a flavor of the month that's what I want to believe. In Europe what is the overly oppressive card over there?

[ironclad8690]

I'm always astonished how delver performs great in USA meta, but in Europe, although it's still a card to watch, is in no way as oppressive as it seems in the states.

Not really sure how to explain this. :eyebrow:

I think that there are two factors here:

1) Players like to look at results from their own country to determine and justify their deck choices.

2) There are subtleties in deck construction that affect the success rates of different archetypes. European miracles lists playing 4 ponder vs American 0 ponder, European deathblade lists playing 4 planeswalkers vs American 2-1 planeswalkers, etc.

[btm10]

It's more of a flavor of the month that's what I want to believe. In Europe what is the overly oppressive card over there?

Flavor of over 3 years now? I think it's because the US Legacy scene is dominated by the SCG Opens, especially in terms of visibility. Because the Delver shells are consistent and not terribly specialized (they run more or less like any other aggro-control deck) it's easy for the multi-format grinders to pick up a Delver list and do well with it. Because the Opens tend to be populated by lots of grinders, Delver is going to show up a lot. This leads to tier 1.5 strategies like Tezz being underrepresented because of player preferences rather than the quality/viability of the deck. Really, Tezz is a deck I'm always surprised isn't more widely played because it's never felt particularly fragile to me (from either side) in testing.

[Lans89]

I think that there are two factors here:

1) Players like to look at results from their own country to determine and justify their deck choices.

2) There are subtleties in deck construction that affect the success rates of different archetypes. European miracles lists playing 4 ponder vs American 0 ponder, European deathblade lists playing 4 planeswalkers vs American 2-1 planeswalkers, etc.

A lot of Eurpeans check the SCG results every week and use it to predict developments in the Legacy metagame just like Americans do, because we don´t have weekly big events over here (and won't travel large distances as easy as Americans do). Ofc, we will always try to answer our local meta. Within a lot of 15/40 player tournaments, where you know what a lot of people will be playing. But that´s for most of us only once a month, so maybe, just maybe, our meta is more ´diverse´ because people can´t play as much and tend to stick to a deck instead of cruising the flavor of the month :P.

[ironclad8690]

A lot of Eurpeans check the SCG results every week and use it to predict developments in the Legacy metagame just like Americans do, because we don´t have weekly big events over here (and won't travel large distances as easy as Americans do). Ofc, we will always try to answer our local meta. Within a lot of 15/40 player tournaments, where you know what a lot of people will be playing. But that´s for most of us only once a month, so maybe, just maybe, our meta is more ´diverse´ because people can´t play as much and tend to stick to a deck instead of cruising the flavor of the month :P.

That makes sense. I live on the west coast so tournaments are scarce for me as well. I at least have a starcity each 6 months or so and a monthly staples tournament in Los Angeles.

[Quasim0ff]

I am struggling to understand how Miracles wasn't an insane choice for that tournament...

[ESG]

It's more of a flavor of the month that's what I want to believe. In Europe what is the overly oppressive card over there?

Many years ago, judging by these boards, the answer to this was Tendrils of Agony, which was why we had a debate about which continent was doing it wrong. Then Mystical Tutor got banned, and that shifted the focal point of discussion. What would Europeans say now? Sensei's Divining Top? Miracles has done very well in Europe.

[Barook]

I am struggling to understand how Miracles wasn't an insane choice for that tournament...
How does Miracles perform against UR Delver?

I have to ask, since UR Delver already dethroned Miracles on MTGO.

[nedleeds]

Mystical tutor would be real fair with Miracle mechanic. Thanks.

[twndomn]

People use MTGO to practice Legacy so they can do well in Real events. MTGO is a selective and biased players' base, in no way direct translation of paper magic. Yes, there might be few Legacy players in IRL in your local area, and more online. However, many Legacy players are busy working people and they have no interest in investing money into virtual collectible cards. Using MTGO to predict or even to correlate player's performance in real life is wrong.

[Tammit67]

I am struggling to understand how Miracles wasn't an insane choice for that tournament...

I think if you extended a look at the standings to top 64 you'd see a lot of miracles in the X-2 and X-3 areas. Having to answer everything from a fast deck for several rounds running is hard when they come prepared to beat you and outdraw you.

[Barook]

People use MTGO to practice Legacy so they can do well in Real events. MTGO is a selective and biased players' base, in no way direct translation of paper magic. Yes, there might be few Legacy players in IRL in your local area, and more online. However, many Legacy players are busy working people and they have no interest in investing money into virtual collectible cards. Using MTGO to predict or even to correlate player's performance in real life is wrong.
MTGO is a good indicator for trends, though, as it moves faster. And the current trend is shitloads of people playing UR Delver, in both MTGO and paper (as witnessed at Eternal Weekend).

My question is what's the cause of the declining number of Miracle players online, especially in the light of Eternal Top 8 which has zero Miracle decks.

[Julian23]

Looking at the latest MTGGoldfish stats, there's pretty much no decline in Miracles placing thus far. Only real difference is UR Delver overtaking the other two powerhouses, Elves & Shardless, blisteringly fast.

[Koby]

Much diversity.
Many Delvers.
Such powerful insect.
Wow!

WotC's FFL finally let another nut loose.

[Ellomdian]

Much diversity.
Many Delvers.
Such powerful insect.
Wow!

WotC's FFL finally let another nut loose.

At least the guys who play Vintage know how to respond to this - break out the Shops, the Chalices, the 3-Spheres, and the Big Robots.

I don't think the answer is MUD, but Ancient Tombs should play a part.

[Barook]

At least the guys who play Vintage know how to respond to this - break out the Shops, the Chalices, the 3-Spheres, and the Big Robots.

I don't think the answer is MUD, but Ancient Tombs should play a part.
Sol-based decks fall prey to their own inconsistency.

My best bet right now to combat this kind of stupidity is D&T with multiple Spirits MD.

Nice boat you have there, let me tap Vial for 2. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7yfISlGLNU)

[FoolofaTook]

I'm always astonished how delver performs great in USA meta, but in Europe, although it's still a card to watch, is in no way as oppressive as it seems in the states.

Not really sure how to explain this. :eyebrow:

Lots of Stoneblade/Deathblade in the Euro meta. Stones Delver big time.

[Gheizen64]

Play something like SnT + Batterskull hybrid? Resolved SnT just rek those fair decks.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

I'm always astonished how delver performs great in USA meta, but in Europe, although it's still a card to watch, is in no way as oppressive as it seems in the states.

Not really sure how to explain this. :eyebrow:

IIRC (based on hear se mind) Europe has always had a more developed legacy scene due to a stronger abundance of staples (Europe had BoM whereas the us has nothing close to it), and people tend to play there pet decks more there

Whereas in the us, people tend to play what they see on stream as they may play legacy a handful of times, delver being super consistent means people see it more.

[Quasim0ff]

Lots of Stoneblade/Deathblade in the Euro meta. Stones Delver big time.

My experience is that the muricans enjoy sfm way more than the europeans does.