Daretti Goblin Welder (Da-Welder)

[apple713]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=389478&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=13001&type=card

Daretti is basically 2 cards in 1
+2 faithless looting
-2 goblin welder
-10 really hard to loose...

Why there is potential

Previously the problem with goblin welder is that it dies to everything, Daretti does not. Additionally, when used in conjunction with goblin welder, it creates consistency welder decks never had before.

The rule of 8: when you have 2 cards that both do very powerful things along the same lines, consistency can be established and a deck can then be formed. Without 8 cards in the deck, the odds of getting them are low enough that consistency becomes an issue. An examples of when decks become amazing is show and tell. when show and tell or sneak attack are used alone the deck would not be consistent enough, but together since they both allow to abuse big creatures, a deck can now be focused around that.


Sample deck lists

I have included many different types to spur ideas and generate conversation


Main deck - Bruiser's current Version
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Talisman of Impulse
3 Gruul Signet

4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
3 Punishing Fire
4 Choke
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Sylvan Library
2 Tangle Wire
3 Goblin Welder
1 Goblin Matron
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Batterskull
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Possessed Portal
1 Contagion Engine

Sideboard
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon / Tormod's Crypt
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sun Droplet
2 Sudden Shock
1 Cursed Totem
1 Raking Canopy
1 Blood Moon
1 Serrated Arrows / Aether Flash



Another List posted by Cire here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28364-Commander-2014-thread&p=843341&viewfull=1#post843341)

slightly modified version of that list

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
3 Great Furnace
3 Seat of the Synod
1 Mountain
1 Island

4 Mox Diamond
3 Grim Monolith

4 Goblin Welder
4 Daretti
2 Dack Fayden

2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Liquid Metal Coating
1 Contagion Engine

3 Tangle Wire
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void


Dragon Stompy Shell

19 CREATURES
4 Magus of the Moon
4 goblin welder
3 Lodestone Golem
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan


21 OTHER SPELLS
4 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Blood Moon
4 Diretti, scrap savant
1 Contagion Engine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

20 LANDS
4 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

SIDEBOARD
1 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Shattering Spree
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Boil
2 Anarchy


R/W Batterskull Beats by Jables237

Critters
4x batterskull
4x mother of runes
4x goblin welder
4x stoneforge mystic
4x Masterwork of Ingenuity

Removal
3x lightning bolt
4x swords to plowshares

Other
4x faithless looting
3x Daretti
4x tangle wire

Lands
2x ancient den
4x arid mesa
3x great furnace
2x mountain
3x plains
4x plateau
2x scalding tarn
2x flooded strand


R/W Welder Stax by MoT_Pestilence

Spells: 36
4 mox diamond
3 trinisphere
4 smokestack
4 goblin welder
4 ensnaring bridge
4 armageddon
2 Bottled Cloister
3 crucible of worlds
4 chalice of the void
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Daretti, Scrap Savant

Lands: 24
3 wasteland
2 flagstones of Trokair
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 cavern of souls
1 karakas
1 plains
4 Plataeu
1 great furnace

Legacy Tools & Tubbies by bruiser (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28750-Daretti-Goblin-Welder-(Da-Welder)&p=843535&viewfull=1#post843535)

Planeswalkers [06]
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
2 Garruk Relentless
Instants [03]
3 Punishing Fire

Bombs [01]
1 Contagion Engine

Creatures [12]
3 Fauna Shaman
3 Goblin Welder
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Platinum Angel
1 Reclamation Sage

Disruption [10]
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Ensnaring Bridge

Enchantments [02]
2 Sylvan Library

Mana Rocks [05]
3 Talisman of Impulse
2 Gruul Signet

Land [21]
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
1 Mountain
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

Discussion

I would really like to start gathering ideas for this deck whether it is prison based, combo based, or agree based it does not matter to me. The list about is just something I threw together for spur discussion.

Cards to consider

Artifacts
grim monolith
trinisphere
chalice of the void
Contagion Engine
kuldotha forgemaster
liquimetal coating
uba mask
ensnaring bridge
sun droplet
Possessed Portal
Duplicant
Triskelavus
Spine of Ish Sah
Nevyniral's Disk
Sundering Titan
Myr Battlesphere
Smokestack
Inkwell Leviathan
Sphinx of the Steel Wind
Steel Hellkite
Phyrexian Metamorph
Mindslaver
Wurmcoil Engine
Bosh Iron Golem
Platinum Emperion
Platinum Angel
Darksteel Forge
ratchet bomb

Red
Feldon of the Third Path (http://mythicspoiler.com/c14/cards/feldonofthethirdpath.jpg)
faithless looting
trash for treasure
gamble
magus of the moon
Blood moon

Blue
show and tell
dack fayden
careful study
arcum dragsson

Black
tezzerett, agent of bolas
baleful strix
entomb


Questions

What strategy to adopt?
aggro
control
combo

[rufus]

My inclination is that Trash for Treasure and Faithless Looting/Careful Study are more similar to Daretti than Goblin Welder, so with that rule of 8, you might want to add those to your list of cards to consider.

[Gheizen64]

The deck name should really be Major Carcetti tbh.

Also contagion Engine is pretty good imho. It's 6 mana but kill TNN, murder elves, kill all pyro elementals, as well as most of D&T creatures. It's not as good vs other things, but as a singleton, and with the added utility of the double proliferate for your Planeswalkers and Tangle wire, i'd run it.

[apple713]

The deck name should really be Major Carcetti tbh.

Also contagion Engine is pretty good imho. It's 6 mana but kill TNN, murder elves, kill all pyro elementals, as well as most of D&T creatures. It's not as good vs other things, but as a singleton, and with the added utility of the double proliferate for your Planeswalkers and Tangle wire, i'd run it.

i think thats an excellent suggestion.

I'll add it to the list and consider it in further drafts of the deck.

[Undomian]

Have you considered Grim Monolith at all for this? It helps to power out those huge threats manually and can be recycled into those same threats (or looted away) later after they've been removed.

[Zupponn]

I really want to add 8Moons here.

[rufus]

I really want to add 8Moons here.

Yeah, I'd want to slot Daretti into a Dragon Stompy shell rather than this UR stuff.

[apple713]

Yeah, I'd want to slot Daretti into a Dragon Stompy shell rather than this UR stuff.

daretti alone or with welder?

[bruizar]

I'm also going to tinker with this a lot. I will make a mono-R list in addition to helping out with this list.

Tangle Wire, Contagion Engine, Grim Monolith are necessary imo.

Right now your blue count is too low to support Force of Will. I think you should reduce it to 3 and/or add blue spells if you want to support this card. That said, I personally like Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm much more. Flusterstorm is a necessary counter if you are playing Chalice of the Void for 1 because it goes through it.

[apple713]

I'm also going to tinker with this a lot. I will make a mono-R list in addition to helping out with this list.

Tangle Wire, Contagion Engine, Grim Monolith are necessary imo.

Right now your blue count is too low to support Force of Will. I think you should reduce it to 3 and/or add blue spells if you want to support this card. That said, I personally like Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm much more. Flusterstorm is a necessary counter if you are playing Chalice of the Void for 1 because it goes through it.

Good observations.

I also updated the main post with a Pseudo dragon stomp shell. Lodestone golems were just thrown in there with little thought

[GenghisTom]

I've always loved Welder but always failed to construct a deck consistent enough.
I've tried Trash for Treasure as welders 5-8, but that card is just a bad all in strategy and you might as well splash black from Reanimate. But then you're just playing a worse version of Reanimator, which dominated the all-in recursion strategy archtype.

As you mentioned, now that we have 8 *playable* welders it's time to return to the drawing board.
I don't think the all-in strategy is where this deck should be. First, Welder requires for you to untap with it meaning it can't be killed and it acts a turn later than Reanimate would. Daretti is just too slow at 4 mana to support an all-in strategy, though it does have 'haste'.

The advantage of these two cards is then, the fact that their ability is reusable.
For this reason I think the control shell is a better one.
Something along the lines of Vintage Slaver Control.

I like Liquimetal Coating for synergy with Dack Fayden, and guaranteeing you'll have a welder target. As Undomian mentioned, Grim monolith is almost a must to increase the speed of the deck while providing a back up plan around graveyard hate where you can just cast your big guys.

I don't think this deck should have the blue counter suite - we're countering two things mostly -> 1). removal for welder and 2). combo pieces (storm, glimpse, S&T, etc)
While being able to counter these is good, this deck really likes playing things on its own turn and the card disadvantage from FoW is pretty rough (not to mention running FoW requires us to up the blue card count and this deck needs red cards and artifact mostly).
Even Intuition, while a great tutor, is better replaced by Gamble.
Dack should be the only blue card imo.
Pyroblast and REB are good cards to counter opponent's counterspells as well as S&T. Contagion Engine ruins Elves, and Trinisphere/Mind Slaver wreck combo.


How to run control without Blue?
Blood Moon effects
Tangle Wire
Trinisphere
REB/Pyroblast (we can always discard them with looting effects game 1 against non blue decks)

Kill with Mind Slaver lock/Wurmcoil/Myr Battlesphere
Sundering Titan is okay, but sometimes a bit too cute, and it's a real wet blanket when he gets swords'ed and you're just sitting there wishing you had Myr Battlesphere instead.

[apple713]

I've always loved Welder but always failed to construct a deck consistent enough.
I've tried Trash for Treasure as welders 5-8, but that card is just a bad all in strategy and you might as well splash black from Reanimate. But then you're just playing a worse version of Reanimator, which dominated the all-in recursion strategy archtype.

As you mentioned, now that we have 8 *playable* welders it's time to return to the drawing board.
I don't think the all-in strategy is where this deck should be. First, Welder requires for you to untap with it meaning it can't be killed and it acts a turn later than Reanimate would. Daretti is just too slow at 4 mana to support an all-in strategy, though it does have 'haste'.

The advantage of these two cards is then, the fact that their ability is reusable.
For this reason I think the control shell is a better one.
Something along the lines of Vintage Slaver Control.

I like Liquimetal Coating for synergy with Dack Fayden, and guaranteeing you'll have a welder target. As Undomian mentioned, Grim monolith is almost a must to increase the speed of the deck while providing a back up plan around graveyard hate where you can just cast your big guys.

I don't think this deck should have the blue counter suite - we're countering two things mostly -> 1). removal for welder and 2). combo pieces (storm, glimpse, S&T, etc)
While being able to counter these is good, this deck really likes playing things on its own turn and the card disadvantage from FoW is pretty rough (not to mention running FoW requires us to up the blue card count and this deck needs red cards and artifact mostly).
Even Intuition, while a great tutor, is better replaced by Gamble.
Dack should be the only blue card imo.
Pyroblast and REB are good cards to counter opponent's counterspells as well as S&T. Contagion Engine ruins Elves, and Trinisphere/Mind Slaver wreck combo.


How to run control without Blue?
Blood Moon effects
Tangle Wire
Trinisphere
REB/Pyroblast (we can always discard them with looting effects game 1 against non blue decks)

Kill with Mind Slaver lock/Wurmcoil/Myr Battlesphere
Sundering Titan is okay, but sometimes a bit too cute, and it's a real wet blanket when he gets swords'ed and you're just sitting there wishing you had Myr Battlesphere instead.

i really like what you are saying here, can you construct a list?

Blue is probably better if you are trying to do some sort of all in combo, where you can use intuition to dump the pieces in the graveyard. It's along the same control type but just going about it a different way.

probably the numbers i would assign to each

liquimetal coating is a 2 of
grim monolith a 3-4 of
red blast / pyroblast 4-6
moon effects 6-7
trinisphere 3 of 1 SB
dack Fayden 2-3
wurmcoil engine 2-3

[bruizar]

I think you also really need Spine of Ish Sah. Spine fuels your weld, then it returns to your hand so it fuels your loot.

This card you can perfectly cycle with Daretti.

Loot, discard artifact + Spine of Ish-Sah
weld, sacrifice artifact, return Spine of Ish-Sah
weld, sacrifice Spine of Ish Sah, return artifact to play (sacked or discarded one), bounce Spine of Ish Sah
Loot, discard the returned Spine of Ish Sah + an artifact...

Also, if Wurmcoil is good, Godo is definitely good. Batterskull can bounce itself (for loot) and can be sacked if it's without a token (for weld). The life gain is also pretty amazing against bolts and ancient tombs. Alex Holland created a list in the MUD thread incorporating Daretti in Godo Mud.

[bruizar]

Godoretti

Land 21

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Great Furnace
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Barbarian Ring
2 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Tower of the Magistrate [or other utility land]

Artifacts 21
4 Tangle Wire
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Batterskull
3 Grim Monolith
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Contagion Engine
1 Spine of Ish-Sah

Planeswalkers 5
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
1 Karn Liberated, Ugin when spoiled

Creatures 11
4 Goblin Welder
3 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Godo, Bandit Warlord
1 Sundering Titan

Instants 3
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast

[MGB]

I feel that you have to include Mindslaver in here somewhere. It's a game-winning combo with Welder in play and 4 mana.

And even on its own, it's a good value play as you can do stuff like crack fetchlands and fail to find, or StP/Bolt their own guys.

[GenghisTom]

I'd start goldfishing with something like this:

4 x Welder
4 x Daretti

2 x Dack
4 x Gamble
2 x Liquimetal Coating

5 x REB/Pyroblast
4 x Trinisphere
1 x Tangle Wire
3 x Magus of Moon (better than Blood Moon as it can soak of removal from Welder and Robots)

3 x Wurmcoil
1 x Battlesphere
1 x Contagion Engine
1 x Mind Slaver

3 x Grim Monolith
2 x Mox Opal
4 x Great Furnace
4 x Ancient Tomb
4 x City of Traitors
3 x Seat of the Synod
3 x Darksteel Citadel
2 x Scalding Tarn
1 x Volcanic Island



Seems like it crushes combo with with Trinisphere/Blood Moon/Slaver
It might have trouble with Contol decks that just keep removing your threats which is why Inkwell Leviathan might be good main deck in place of 1 Wurmcoil.
Or maybe the amount of win cons is too low?
There's a nearly inexhaustible amount of card choice options.

I have a feeling Dack + Liquimetal Coating would really give control a tough time - the SB could contain the other 2 of each.

[apple713]

Godoretti

Land 21

2 Barbarian Ring


Artifacts 21

1 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish-Sah

Planeswalkers 5

Ugin when spoiled

Creatures 11
3 Godo, Bandit Warlord




barbarian ring?

i like spine and greaves

Who is ugin and what do you know about him?

3 godo seems much since it cost 6, maybe 1-2 especially because other than fetching a batterskul he's isn't synergistic with the rest of the deck.


I feel that you have to include Mindslaver in here somewhere. It's a game-winning combo with Welder in play and 4 mana.

And even on its own, it's a good value play as you can do stuff like crack fetchlands and fail to find, or StP/Bolt their own guys.


slaver is good as a 1 of, however we are approaching the point of lots of 1 ofs with no reliable way to search them other than loot for them... is there anything that can help us here?




Seems like it crushes combo with with Trinisphere/Blood Moon/Slaver
It might have trouble with Contol decks that just keep removing your threats which is why Inkwell Leviathan might be good main deck in place of 1 Wurmcoil.
Or maybe the amount of win cons is too low?
There's a nearly inexhaustible amount of card choice options.

I have a feeling Dack + Liquimetal Coating would really give control a tough time - the SB could contain the other 2 of each.

planeswalkers in general hurt control decks because really pithing needle / council's judgment are their only outs. you can steal a needle and weld it away or just weld it away if they have an artifact in grave.

goblin welder hurts control because they can counterspell something but it'll get recurred. you have to stick the welder tho and not let him get STP'd. Also being an explosive deck they can sometimes get caught offgaurd or overwhelmed.

Generally though i think this deck should have a fairly decent matchup against them because of the late game potential. It's also good against combo because it has early game explosiveness. If the consistency issues can get worked out we can define a very precise win strategy i think the deck has incredible potential.


I think you also really need Spine of Ish Sah. Spine fuels your weld, then it returns to your hand so it fuels your loot.

This card you can perfectly cycle with Daretti.

Loot, discard artifact + Spine of Ish-Sah
weld, sacrifice artifact, return Spine of Ish-Sah
weld, sacrifice Spine of Ish Sah, return artifact to play (sacked or discarded one), bounce Spine of Ish Sah
Loot, discard the returned Spine of Ish Sah + an artifact...

Also, if Wurmcoil is good, Godo is definitely good. Batterskull can bounce itself (for loot) and can be sacked if it's without a token (for weld). The life gain is also pretty amazing against bolts and ancient tombs. Alex Holland created a list in the MUD thread incorporating Daretti in Godo Mud.

great catch. for some reason i was thinking spine was a replacement effect, i just needed to RTFC.

cards to be concerned with
Deathrite shaman
rest in peace
tormod's crypt
Grafdigger's Cage

[bruizar]

Ugin is highly highly likely to be the next colorless planeswalker this block (reforged) with a Ghostfire attached to it and perhaps a time walk. Ugin is powerful enough to keep emrakul at bay so im expecting power creep. I suspect something of a mix between nicol bolas and karn liberated in terms of power.

@Barbarian ring: Perhaps a little too ambitious. The thought was, if you're filling the yard you might as well use barbarian ring to get rid of delvers and such. I think this works best if you also run back in UR

[LIKEABOSS]

Could this become a B/R or Grixis version using entomb and other reanimation effects? It seems like it could work.
T1- Volcanic Island, tap, Goblin Welder
T2-Swamp, Entomb, tap Goblin Welder, bring back x artifact from the grave, spell pierce in hand.

Now, this wont happen all the time, but its not a Magical Christmas Land scenario either.

I have to agree with those who say that adding Mindslaver would be beneficial. Even cracking the slaver ONCE can be game-changing (i.e. Force of Willing your opponents own spells, cracking fetches for no land, tapping out for no reason, or just making a stupidly bad decision.), and doing it infinite times flat-out wins you the game.

The Spine of Ish Sha doesn't seem that great simply because of how bad it is with Welder and Daretti.

[bruizar]

barbarian ring?
3 godo seems much since it cost 6, maybe 1-2 especially because other than fetching a batterskul he's isn't synergistic with the rest of the deck.

Yes, especially when you're also running wurmcoils.



cards to be concerned with
Deathrite shaman
rest in peace
tormod's crypt
Grafdigger's Cage
DRS only works on creature artifacts, so contagion engine isn't effected. Thats something. Chalice can help here. Not sure if there are other cards that can help..

Also, right now there isn't much in terms of discard. Pehaps a Gathan Raider or two could help dump bombs.

[apple713]

Ugin is highly highly likely to be the next colorless planeswalker this block (reforged) with a Ghostfire attached to it and perhaps a time walk. Ugin is powerful enough to keep emrakul at bay so im expecting power creep. I suspect something of a mix between nicol bolas and karn liberated in terms of power.

@Barbarian ring: Perhaps a little too ambitious. The thought was, if you're filling the yard you might as well use barbarian ring to get rid of delvers and such. I think this works best if you also run back in UR

If we are worried about creatures at the start we can actually run Ensnaring bridge with great success because we should be dumping our hands fast, and when we need to attack we can either weld / daretti it away. This almost seems like an auto include from a defense standpoint. I know that cloudpost / 12post decks are running elephant grass to buy time and this would be our equivalent.

Maybe buying time isn't what we need tho, really we just need to test.

I'm mainly concerned with aggro / control / tempo

miracles, rug, and D&T would probably be the top 3 decks id want to test against at the start.



Could this become a B/R or Grixis version using entomb and other reanimation effects? It seems like it could work.
T1- Volcanic Island, tap, Goblin Welder
T2-Swamp, Entomb, tap Goblin Welder, bring back x artifact from the grave, spell pierce in hand.

Now, this wont happen all the time, but its not a Magical Christmas Land scenario either.

I like the idea, but this is a very different deck than others are discussing. do you have a list i can post in the OP for reference?

you can use this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28206-Burning-Reanimator) to poach some ideas.

[jamis]

Maybe it doesn't make the cut, but I think Moltensteel Dragon could be a consideration.

[aCatNamedBootsy]

Would Izzet Signet be worthy of consideration for any of the Variants with blue? I figure since Dimir Signet sees play in the Tezzerator decks it might be a worthy inclusion here (although they also have Talisman of Dominance as well. Maybe going Grixis is a possibility?).

[LIKEABOSS]

Maybe it doesn't make the cut, but I think Moltensteel Dragon could be a consideration.

Just curious, why do you think Moltensteel Dragon is that good? Compared to the rest of the big, bomby artifacts out there, I feel like Moltensteel Dragon wouldn't really help us as much as, say, Sundering Titan.

Could Platinum Emporium see play here? Platinum Angel?

[bruizar]

Against RUG / UR Delver: I'd probably want to side in Taurean Mauler (with cavern of souls) to combat Young Pyromancer and Monastery Swiftspear while also punishing their counters and cantrips with a decent clock that they cannot remove with Lightning Bolt (unless that's the first spell they play after you resolve taurean mauler. It's also a good choice because they will board in artifact hate. Chalice of the Void also plays a crucial role here, as well as Red Elemental Blast (Could be Burnout if afraid of chalice issues). There is also Pyrokinesis and Whipflare that can play a role in this match.

Miracles: I like Godo because he is immune to Swords to Plowshares, Jace and to some extent Terminus (Batterskull will remain). Lantern of Insight can counter Entreat the Angels (or Terminus) by shuffling away the miracle trigger. This matchup probably needs work because it can be hard to resolve bigger threats against control. Pithing Needle needs to be answered.

@Jamis: I play Moltensteel Dragon in Godo MUD. It's a great clock. It really depends on the direction of the list (Full on control/prison, prison stompy or stompy with artifact recursion)

[bruizar]

Just curious, why do you think Moltensteel Dragon is that good? Compared to the rest of the big, bomby artifacts out there, I feel like Moltensteel Dragon wouldn't really help us as much as, say, Sundering Titan.

Could Platinum Emporium see play here? Platinum Angel?

Moltensteel Dragon is lethal on the second attack 99% of the time. In practice, it's a 2 turn clock disguised as a shitty dragon.

[rufus]

daretti alone or with welder?

I was thinking with chalice, and no welder, but I won't derail things further.

[apple713]

I was thinking with chalice, and no welder, but I won't derail things further.

i included a sample list in the OP of daretti integrated into stompy, but not focusing on welder and Daretti would defeat the point of this deck / thread. It sounds like what you are wanting is to simply add daretti to dragon stompy which could be addressed in their thread

this thread should focus on abusing the synergy and consistency created by Goblin welder and Daretti.

[LIKEABOSS]

Moltensteel Dragon is lethal on the second attack 99% of the time. In practice, it's a 2 turn clock disguised as a shitty dragon.

Alright, just wondering.

Seems like a great deck!

[bruizar]

Here's yet _ANOTHER_ direction this Doretti could go. So many options..

Legacy Tools & Tubbies

Land [21]
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
1 Mountain
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

Mana Rocks [05]
3 Talisman of Impulse
2 Gruul Signet

Enchantments [02]
2 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers [06]
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
2 Garruk Relentless / Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
Instants [03]
3 Punishing Fire

Bombs [01]
1 Contagion Engine

Creatures [12]
3 Fauna Shaman
3 Goblin Welder
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind / Inkwell Leviathan
1 Sundering Titan / Platinum Angel
1 Reclamation Sage

Disruption [10]
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Ensnaring Bridge


Single card discussion:

Garruk Relentless:
Garruk deals with creatures
Garruk makes blockers
Garruk makes permanents for Tangle Wire
Garruk flips into semi-survival of the fittest mode, fueling the yard and tutoring for silver bullets

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=245250&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=245251&type=card

Sylvan Library
Provides card quality and card quantity in the 2-CC slot, avoiding Chalice of the Void's interference. Sylvan Library together with Doretti, Scrap Savant let you draw 5 cards in a single turn, of which 2 bombs can be discarded. Wurmcoil Engine and Sphinx of the Steel Wind are there to provide a good clock and sustained fuel for Sylvan Library

Fauna Shaman
Helps get Wurmcoil Engine and other bombs in the graveyard, and tutors for extra Fauna Shaman's, Welders or sideboard silver-bullets

Goblin Welder
Needs no introduction. Cavern of Souls helps dodge Chalice of the Void on one

Tangle Wire
Helps slow the game down so that planeswalkers can ramp

Contagion Engine
Removes creatures, ramps planeswalkers and locks the game out with Tangle Wire

Ensnaring Bridge
Serves as early game protection. Weld this out for a Wurmcoil Engine or other bomb

Sphinx of the Steel Wind
When you need a good clock with lifelink, evasion, and are trying to dodge artifact removal, weld this

Inkwell Leviathan
When you're facing targeted removal, you can use Inkwell Leviathan. Not that good because Terminus gets rid of it.

Sundering Titan
Some people don't like this card, I do. Even if this catches a plowshares, the damage is already done most of the time. The life gain from plowshares ensures you have at least an extra turn or two to find a new bomb.

Punishing Fire + Grove of the Burnwillows
Good mana sink in your upkeep when you've got Tangle Wire out. Controls the board. Answers Deathrite Shaman, Delver of Secrets, Young Pyromancer and all the other usual suspects. Also serves as a card advantage engine with Doretti in play.

Wurmcoil Engine
The main beatstick. Trades nicely with Goblin Welder, Doretti and Garruk. Garruk and Fauna Shaman can tutor it.

Reclamation Sage
Answers Pithing Needle or the occasional Counterbalance or something from imperial painter. Also deals with Leyline of the Void, Rest in Peace and Relic of Progenitus.

Mana rocks
Accelerate and later provide welding fodder

[Quizzlemanizzle]

Maybe it doesn't make the cut, but I think Moltensteel Dragon could be a consideration.

Myr Battlesphere is better

[JanoschEausH]

Here's yet _ANOTHER_ direction this Doretti could go. So many options..

Legacy Tools & Tubbies

Land [21]
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
1 Mountain
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

Mana Rocks [05]
2 Talisman of Impulse
3 Gruul Signet

Enchantments [02]
2 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers [06]
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
2 Garruk Relentless / Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
Instants [03]
3 Punishing Fire

Bombs [01]
1 Contagion Engine

Creatures [12]
3 Fauna Shaman
3 Goblin Welder
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind / Inkwell Leviathan
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel

Disruption [10]
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Ensnaring Bridge


I would consider playing more Talisman of Impulse than Gruul Signet, since there are no cards that have GR in their casting cost.

[bruizar]

I would consider playing more Talisman of Impulse than Gruul Signet, since there are no cards that have GR in their casting cost.

Good point. Lightning edited.

[Memories of the Time]

I'm more on a thing like
3 p. Fire
3-4 thirst
3-4 cruise
4 Chalice
3 dack fayden
3-4 Daretti
2 loam
3-4 b wish
3-4 force of will
24 lands+4 Mox Diamond
Intu, mindslaver, wurmcoil, e.e, liquidmetal, e. Bridge and so on.

[Gheizen64]

This is a list i'm playing right now of Godo MUD:


Taxes:
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Ajani Vengeant
2 Trinisphere
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void

Equipment engine:
2 Lightning Greaves
4 Batterskull
2 Godo, Bandit Warlord
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Mana:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
2 Wasteland
2 Mox Diamond
2 Boros Garrison
2 Plateau
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Boros Signet

SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Spellskite
SB: 4 Wear // Tear
SB: 4 Sudden Shock


I'm not sure where i could play Daretti.
Some explanations:

I've found Batterskull to be better than Wurmcoil because:
- costing 1 less is crucial when you need the creature to gain life
- vigilance is relevant
- you can equip other creatures, especially relevant with Godo, + later on with postmana you can easily bounce and replay it and equip etc...
- SFM + godo tutor for it, whereas this isn't true of Wurmcoil

Godo is actually really good and i didn't think much of it. Untapping with it it's game with double attack phase. Greaves especially allowyou to win from nowhere with it.

Postmana base instead of standard. Basically Glimmerpost is a really good card, and plus, with Vesuva, Garrison and crucible you can easily just gain tons of life with it. I never liked traitors in the deck, even with Crucible. Honestly, i thought crucible and Moxen would've left the deck soon after some testing, but i've found a nice sinergy of mox + garrison, plus the crucible wastelock and the ability to recicle Posts won me a lot of games until now. Signet instead of Monolith is a concession for the colored mana i need in the deck, and in general with this curve you don't really need to curve into monsters T2-T3, but more like replay batterskulls and equips ad infinitum.
The most ? slots of the deck right now imho are Lodestone and Ajani. Lodestone is just too fragile in this format, while Ajani has been decent for now, but i found hardly uses for its +1. Daretti could very well go in either slot, probably Lodestone first.

For the SB, i've started playingsudden shock as an uncounterable way to deal with Swiftspears, Pyromancers (good because he can't create tokens in resp) and elves creatures (and they can't bounce to hand in resp).

EDIT: i like the RG approach by Bruizar a lot. If Survival ever get unbanned, jump on it, old TnT style at its finest.

[jafar]

Some ideas

I would suggest the RED STAX route.

Blood moon ftw.

Add Solemn simulacrum (more draw, more ramp) and some Squees (1/2) for profit.

Squee could be food for smokestacks too.

Add some big robots and GG :smile:

Bye

[Cire]

There are a lot of ways this deck can go. . . for example this is what I'm currently testing.

7 2 mana land.
13 Lands

4 Welder
2 Wormcoil engine

3 Daretti
4 Dack

3 Talisman of Indulgence
4 Transmute
3 Talisman of Progress
4 Intuition
4 Faithless Looting
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Foundry
2 Liquidmetal coating.

The idea is that you have 3 main lines of play.

1st – land
2nd – Land – 2 mana accel
3rd – 2 mana land - Dack + liquid/transmute

1st – land
2nd – 2 mana land – Loot – Discard Welder Target
3rd – land – Daretti and Goblin Welder ( a turn earlier).

1st – land
2nd – 2 mana land – Loot – sword of the meek
3 rd – land – Trasmute/foundry

I would love to find room for FOW or traditional MUD cards like moon/chalice or even mash in 8TEZZ with some tezz/jace and some more artifacts.

[bruizar]

I've found Batterskull to be better than Wurmcoil because:
- costing 1 less is crucial when you need the creature to gain life
- vigilance is relevant

- SFM + godo tutor for it, whereas this isn't true of Wurmcoil

Godo is actually really good and i didn't think much of it. Untapping with it it's game with double attack phase. Greaves especially allow you to win from nowhere with it.

I agree with this. I used the exact same equipment package. Wurmcoil obviously gets a lot better when you can weld him, but if you can support Godo, he's a real beating. The mana-cost difference was the reason I also added Moltensteel Dragon in my earlier builds. Godo Mud was an attempt to shave off the average converted mana cost of the deck, since MUD usually dies to itself, rather than to its opponent. Godo MUD also came into being as a way to deal with Swords to Plowshares and Jace, the Mindsculptor (these both destroy your mana investment if you're playing wurmcoil engine). The major downside of Batterskull is that it folds to Spell Pierce.



Basically Glimmerpost is a really good card, and plus, with Vesuva, Garrison and crucible you can easily just gain tons of life with it. I never liked traitors in the deck, even with Crucible. Honestly, i thought crucible and Moxen would've left the deck soon after some testing, but i've found a nice sinergy of mox + garrison, plus the crucible wastelock and the ability to recicle Posts won me a lot of games until now.


Man.. Boros Garrison with Glimmerpost / Vesuva is sweet. How did that go in testing? Did bouncing and renaming Cavern of Souls come up?



For the SB, i've started playingsudden shock as an uncounterable way to deal with Swiftspears, Pyromancers (good because he can't create tokens in resp) and elves creatures (and they can't bounce to hand in resp).

I'm also big on Sudden Shock right now. If you're careful with passing priority, you can remove Deathrite Shaman before it can eat a robot from your yard (If you go for welder walker).

Lodestone Golem isn't cutting it right now, mostly because of Lightning Bolts everywhere.

How are the Wear // Tear's for you? Does using both sides at the same time ever come up?

[Quizzlemanizzle]

Mox Diamond - I might have to bite the bullet to get a set seems much better than Petal. Also the discarded land works with Treasure Cruise.

If you play Dack Fayden I don't think you want to really play Ancient Tomb and Traitors since they don't accelerate Dack.

[Cire]

Yeah but you need it for early Intuition's or Early Daretti. However, you are right - the 1st line of play in my post is not playable since you only produce 2CCC instead of the 1CCCC you need. I don't really have a solution for that yet - but I'll tinker around with that list for a while. Again the list is really just Welder-Control/Dack+Liquid/Thopter+Sword. Something about those elements makes sense for me, but i'm not entirely sure whether they can actually fit all together.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

I am not sure I want to run 4 Daretti..

Maybe 3/4 Dack and 2 Daretti and still go with the Dack combos with Notion Thief, Treasure Cruise, Jam Mox Diamond, Liquimetal, Welder.

I am not sure I can justify 4 Daretti's when I could play Jace in any deck. I also prefer to run more of the cheaper cards (Dack, Welder) than 4 of the expensive guy.

[bruizar]

Yeah but you need it for early Intuition's or Early Daretti. However, you are right - the 1st line of play in my post is not playable since you only produce 2CCC instead of the 1CCCC you need. I don't really have a solution for that yet - but I'll tinker around with that list for a while. Again the list is really just Welder-Control/Dack+Liquid/Thopter+Sword. Something about those elements makes sense for me, but i'm not entirely sure whether they can actually fit all together.

If you start running 4 x land 4 volcanic island 2 UR lands 4 darksteel citadel, 3 great furnace, 3 seat of the synod, 4 mox opal, you will be able to get your turn 2 Dack's reliably, but you also open yourself up for massive postboard hate. A mix of Mox Opal and Mox Diamond / Chrome Mox could also work.

[Cire]

Do you think TC would work in a deck that plays a lot of permanents, not that many fetch lands, and needs certain cards in the grave? As for Jace - yeah - I just want to make sure that lines of play I want work well before I guess I make it less goldfish consistent and add in FOW and maybe Jace to make it better for the real world. As for postboard hate to Dack, that I think would be fine, since the idea is that an opponent can't prepare for Dack/Liquid, Welder target AND thopter. I mean the opponent can - through counterspells, but IDK how to solve that outside boarding a punch of REB's - which we probably should do anyway if we're up against a blue deck.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

Dack and Daretti both fill the graveyard with their +1 so Treasure Cruise makes sense.

Also when you play Dack, it makes sense to play Brainstorm, Ponder, Force of Will, Treasure Cruise, Pyroblast, Lightning Bolt

Deck space gets realllllly tight.

I would like to have Jace, Liquimetal Coating and even Baleful Strix and Notion Thief also. Punishing Fire and Life from the Loam are also cool.

And then you still need value for Daretti like Wurmcoil Engine, Myr Battlesphere, Sundering Titan, Mindslaver, Contagion Engine and so on.

PS: Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is pretty nice too.

Guess you could go Walkers+Mud and forget about the cantrips. Dack, Daretti, Jace and Tezz with some control and some artifacts.

[bruizar]

I'm hesitant on using treasure cruise myself. I think it's easier to just bank on Dualcaster Mage and copy your opponent's TC except the problem is that the deck wants to tap out.. As a matter of fact, I think even Fork or Twincast would be viable in legacy decks right now.

[Gheizen64]

I've just fallen in love with the garrison lands. You can play them and bounce ur traitor and you will be cursing your mana base so much less! I'm testing a 4 Traitors, 4 Tomb, 4 Garrison mana base, it's smoother, even if i miss the lifegain from the glimmerposts, i can run more colored lands. And yes, bouncing Cavern of souls has been relevant in some games, from artificer to human mostly.

About Wear//Tear i've never both sides together, but there's so many enchantments that ruin the deck so i'm still running it.

[bruizar]

I've just fallen in love with the garrison lands. You can play them and bounce ur traitor and you will be cursing your lands so much less! I'm testing a 4 Traitors, 4 Tomb, 4 Garrison mana base, it's smoother, even if i miss the lifegain from the glimmerposts, i can run more colored lands. And yes, bouncing Cavern of souls has been relevant in some games, from artificer to human mostly.


What about the lair cycle? You get an extra splash color and they don't come into play tapped, this should speed up your deck a bit. In your case Rith's Grove

[Gheizen64]

What about the lair cycle? You get an extra splash color and they don't come into play tapped, this should speed up your deck a bit. In your case Rith's Grove

It doesn't make you virtually draw a card. I'm liking the garrison a lot because a T1 Traitor into CotV, into T2 garrison it's a T3 4 mana with 2 land hand, with a development of 2-2-4 mana over 3 turns, with only 2 lands. That's like playing with a mox T1 and T3. That draw a card Kreygasm

Nahiri will be just perfect in my list when she's out. Double white is annoying but free batterskulls and recycling batterskull are too good.

[bruizar]

It doesn't make you virtually draw a card. I'm liking the garrison a lot because a T1 Traitor into CotV, into T2 garrison it's a T3 4 mana with 2 land hand. And in that case the Garrison has worked sorta like a 3-mana land because it has also negated the drawback of City of Traitors.

Nahiri will be just perfect in my list when she's out. Double white is annoying but free batterskulls and recycling batterskull are too good.

If you're too far in double white, you could test Stonehewer Giant over Godo, but I doubt that this will be good for you (Godo is more powerful, and you lose upside from garrison)

[apple713]

Good point. Lightning edited.

I like fauna shaman a lot because it solves the issue ive been running into when goldfishing; not being able to dump artifacts into grave. While i like her concept i think its probably too slow.

So the issue i am running into is that the focus of several of the decks posted seems to be aggro oriented. There does not apear to be enough creatures to consistently be getting them when you need them. Additionally, when you do get them you cant dump them in grave.

One of the reasons show and tell is viable with only 8 creatures is because ot has brainstorm ponder and top to dig for them. Relying on diretti to dig creates inconsistency.

Should the purpose be to cast the creatures and when they die just reanimate them? Or ahould the deck be focused on dumping artifacts in grave to abise the reanimate mechanic without intending to cast them?

The difference is huge because casting a 6 cmc wurmcoil is a lot harder than powering out a diretri at 4 mana. If the focus is reanimation you no longer need to include cards that get you to casting 6cmc spells.

Other considerations include strictly going with mindslaber as win con reduces susceptibility to drs

[Quizzlemanizzle]

Actually I don't think you can really play Dack and Daretti in the same deck effectively.

Daretti will only be good if you can force your opponent into a long grind game. So you need to play a lot of hate and control along with him plus his value combos.

The fact that Goblin Welder provided the same effect already for 1 but could not be broken also doesn't signal that Daretti will be broken. He is good and can take over a long game late if you get there.

Dack and Daretti both need completely different cards to abuse their abilities. Dack is a 2 card combo with Notion Thief/Liquimetal Coating but Daretti is a 3 card combo.

With Daretti you probably need to play all sol lands and moxes to get him out on turn 2 to start looting and hope to hit jackpot on turn 3. At that point Chalice of the Void is a must turn 1 play and that rules out Welder.

Mono-Red Daretti Mud seems decent..

[bruizar]

@Quizzlemanizzle:

All you need for Welder and Chalice to work together is some glue in the form of Cavern of Souls. Dack Fayden is indeed a different deck I think.

For some reason, I can't get this out of my head:

Turn 1: Ancient Tomb, Chrome Mox, Thirst for Knowledge
Turn 2: Doretti, Weld

@apple713:
I think the stax approach is better than the aggro approach UNLESS you take Red MUD and add Daretti as a failsafe against counters and removal.

Tangle Wire lends itself towards the long game and I really like this with Daretti. Darkblast and Life from the Loam both solve the discard issue to a large extent.

Graveyard fillers:
Black splash: Darkblast
Green splash: Life from the loam, Fauna Shaman
Blue splash: Thirst for Knowledge, Strategic Planning, etc
Red: Gamble, Control of the Court, Gathan Raiders

[GenghisTom]

Some good brainstorming going on.
Come next Friday Ill be testing this out:

4 chalice
4 tangle wire

4 welder
4 daretti

3 dack
3 liqiumetal

3 thirst for knowledge
2 intuition
2 wurmcoil
1 battlesphere
1 mind slaver
1 contagion engine
1 filigree angel
1 Sundering Titan

3 grim monolith
3 mox opal
4 seat
4 great furnace
4 tomb
4 city
4 cavern


I like chalice more than Trinisphere. Cavern allows for welder, and since we now have daretti it's okay if you get into a situation where you cant cast welder because of chalice and no cavern. In which case you can just loot away the welder. And to be honest, if you have a chalice out @ 1, chances are it's hurting your opponent a lot more.
Not being able to play gamble really hurts, but I think Chalice > Trinisphere is worth it, and we have thirst for knowledge and intuition anyway.
Dack, Daretti, Thirst, and Intuition should give us enough discard outs for weld combo
Sol lands, mox and monolith should be enough to give us a work around gravehate by just hardcasting stuff.
Filigree angel gains 12+ life basically everytime which really hurts a lot of decks right now.
I might want to run an ensnaring bridge main... Not sure.
Still need to test it, I've been busy.

[apple713]

For the TLDR version jump to the point after i link the cards at the bottom.



Dack and Daretti both fill the graveyard with their +1 so Treasure Cruise makes sense.

Also when you play Dack, it makes sense to play Brainstorm, Ponder, Force of Will, Treasure Cruise, Pyroblast, Lightning Bolt

Deck space gets realllllly tight.

I would like to have Jace, Liquimetal Coating and even Baleful Strix and Notion Thief also. Punishing Fire and Life from the Loam are also cool.

And then you still need value for Daretti like Wurmcoil Engine, Myr Battlesphere, Sundering Titan, Mindslaver, Contagion Engine and so on.

PS: Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is pretty nice too.

Guess you could go Walkers+Mud and forget about the cantrips. Dack, Daretti, Jace and Tezz with some control and some artifacts.

you are trying to do too much with the deck and in doing so you will do nothing well. The deck needs to be focused.



What about the lair cycle? You get an extra splash color and they don't come into play tapped, this should speed up your deck a bit. In your case Rith's Grove

lair lands come into play tapped.... what are u talking about?


It doesn't make you virtually draw a card. I'm liking the garrison a lot because a T1 Traitor into CotV, into T2 garrison it's a T3 4 mana with 2 land hand, with a development of 2-2-4 mana over 3 turns, with only 2 lands. That's like playing with a mox T1 and T3. That draw a card Kreygasm

Nahiri will be just perfect in my list when she's out. Double white is annoying but free batterskulls and recycling batterskull are too good.

garrison also allows you to get BLOWN out by wasteland on garrison after dropping cot.


If you're too far in double white, you could test Stonehewer Giant over Godo, but I doubt that this will be good for you (Godo is more powerful, and you lose upside from garrison)

godo is probably better than adding white to justify anything. double any color sucks in a deck like this.


Actually I don't think you can really play Dack and Daretti in the same deck effectively.

Daretti will only be good if you can force your opponent into a long grind game. So you need to play a lot of hate and control along with him plus his value combos.

The fact that Goblin Welder provided the same effect already for 1 but could not be broken also doesn't signal that Daretti will be broken. He is good and can take over a long game late if you get there.

Dack and Daretti both need completely different cards to abuse their abilities. Dack is a 2 card combo with Notion Thief/Liquimetal Coating but Daretti is a 3 card combo.


you may not be able to play dack and daretti in the same deck but their abilities are complimentary. The only reason that welder and daretti are any good is if there are artifacts in your grave. dack provides a continuous way to do that. Whether or not he is the best card to fulfill that role is a different story. The fact is that you NEED that role to be filled, the question is how you are going to fill it?



@Quizzlemanizzle:

All you need for Welder and Chalice to work together is some glue in the form of Cavern of Souls. Dack Fayden is indeed a different deck I think.

For some reason, I can't get this out of my head:

Turn 1: Ancient Tomb, Chrome Mox, Thirst for Knowledge
Turn 2: Doretti, Weld

@apple713:
I think the stax approach is better than the aggro approach UNLESS you take Red MUD and add Daretti as a failsafe against counters and removal.

Tangle Wire lends itself towards the long game and I really like this with Daretti. Darkblast and Life from the Loam both solve the discard issue to a large extent.

Graveyard fillers:
Black splash: Darkblast
Green splash: Life from the loam, Fauna Shaman
Blue splash: Thirst for Knowledge, Strategic Planning, etc
Red: Gamble, Control of the Court, Gathan Raiders

good point about dredging. thats an option. however dredging is slow. leading to a longer more grind game. filling your grave with artifacts is good but maybe we need to focus on which artifacts?



regarding control of the court and dredge, random is bad, most decks don't like random, this deck included. we don't want random because it serves a limited purpose. it is only beneficial if we want cards in the grave because we can't rely on it to search for something we want in our hand. if we want something to fill our grave there are better cards.

thirst for knowledge
strategic planning
intuition
transmute artifact
entomb

If we want aggro, the easy solution would be to adapt a version of dragon stompy / red mud and that should be discussed in their forums which they are already doing. So I'm going to try and identify what i think the focus should be. I think the deck should be focused on control / combo.

i like the idea of making this a "reanimator" deck, but instead of creatures maybe what we reanimate is artifacts that can win us the game or serve as a toolbox.

there are 2 best case scenarios for this deck or at least the deck I'm invisioning.

scenario 1
T1 land -> welder
T2 land -> loot, cast artifact -> weld something awesome into play

scenario 2
T1 sol land, mox -> Loot
T2 Land -> daretti -> reanimate

the issue to run into in scenario 1 is you have to protect welder via counterspells or other means, suggestions? Naturally since you are looting and blue is good at that it makes sense to use blue because it also protects.

Issue in scenario two is that you need that acceleration to drop daretti on t2. If you don't get him t2, its not the end of the world. but then things get more complicated with every turn. depending on how slow you expect your deck to play you need to provide the proper protections.

We then have to decide what to focus on
Comboing something out fast means we build for consistency and protection.
Playing more control means we need to slow the game down long enough to get the cards into place.

maybe we can accomplish both of those? IDK

are there any artifacts that we can rely on to seal a game? mindslaver is the only thing that comes to mind... but i know there has to be others. If we can't rely on an artifact to seal the game for us we are forced into the control route.

[GenghisTom]

are there any artifacts that we can rely on to seal a game?

Possessed Portal can pretty much shut down most decks, and if we get to Daretti's ultimate, sacrificing an artifact means nothing to us.
(at least that's what it looks like, Portal triggers at beginning of end step at which point you would sac an artifact, then that artifact would return to play at the beginning of the next end step which would be the end step of the next turn correct?)

[Jables237]

I was thinking about R/W to use SFM and the new Masterwork of ingenuity with Batterskull. Here is what I was tossing around:

Lands
2x ancient den
4x arid mesa
3x great furnace
2x mountain
3x plains
4x plateau
2x scalding tarn
2x flooded strand

Critters
4x batterskull
4x mother of runes
4x goblin welder
4x stoneforge mystic
4x Masterwork of Ingenuity

Removal
3x lightning bolt
4x swords to plowshares

Other
4x faithless looting
3x Daretti
4x tangle wire

SFM allows tutoring for a Bskull or a masterwork. Also another way of cheating it into play. Bolt and Swords are great removal spells. Mom can protect SFM and welder. I am not sure if the masterwork route is really worth going but seemed like a fun card to try and break.

[MoT_Pestilence]

Take from this what you will, but I've top 4'd my local weekly tournament every week for the past 2 months, plus 2 monthly's at another store with this W/r Stax list. I think Daretti would be a perfect fit in it as well. My current list is:

Lands: 24

3 wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
2 flagstones of Trokair
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 cavern of souls
1 karakas
1 plains
2 Plataeu
1 ancient den
1 great furnace

Spells: 36
4 mox diamond
3 trinisphere
4 smokestack
4 goblin welder
3 ensnaring bridge
4 armageddon
2 Bottled Cloister
3 crucible of worlds
4 chalice of the void
3 enlightened tutor
2 Wurmcoil Engine


I think you could take out 1-2 of the Bottled Cloister and 1-2 of the Wurmcoil Engines to add 2-3 Daretti. Then add 2-3 more red sources and the deck would be perfect. I haven't tested it yet but the synergy between welder/daretti and smokestack cannot be ignored. The discard from his loot can be undone with Crucible and Welder and himself. You might not even need Wurmcoil Engines and just replace them with TangleWires. I think others that were saying he works best in a control list were correct. You want to grind advantage with him, and smokestack is the perfect way to do that. I'm going to be testing a list that looks something like this:

Lands: 24

3 wasteland
2 flagstones of Trokair
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 cavern of souls
1 karakas
1 plains
4 Plataeu
1 great furnace

Spells: 36
4 mox diamond
3 trinisphere
4 smokestack
4 goblin welder
3 ensnaring bridge
4 armageddon
1 Bottled Cloister
3 crucible of worlds
4 chalice of the void
3 enlightened tutor
3 Daretti, Scrap Savant

[Jables237]

Take from this what you will, but I've top 4'd my local weekly tournament every week for the past 2 months, plus 2 monthly's at another store with this W/r Stax list. I think Daretti would be a perfect fit in it as well. My current list is:

Lands: 24

3 wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
2 flagstones of Trokair
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 cavern of souls
1 karakas
1 plains
2 Plataeu
1 ancient den
1 great furnace

Spells: 36
4 mox diamond
3 trinisphere
4 smokestack
4 goblin welder
3 ensnaring bridge
4 armageddon
2 Bottled Cloister
3 crucible of worlds
4 chalice of the void
3 enlightened tutor
2 Wurmcoil Engine


I think you could take out 1-2 of the Bottled Cloister and 1-2 of the Wurmcoil Engines to add 2-3 Daretti. Then add 2-3 more red sources and the deck would be perfect. I haven't tested it yet but the synergy between welder/daretti and smokestack cannot be ignored. The discard from his loot can be undone with Crucible and Welder and himself. You might not even need Wurmcoil Engines and just replace them with TangleWires. I think others that were saying he works best in a control list were correct. You want to grind advantage with him, and smokestack is the perfect way to do that. I'm going to be testing a list that looks something like this:

Lands: 24

3 wasteland
2 flagstones of Trokair
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 cavern of souls
1 karakas
1 plains
4 Plataeu
1 great furnace

Spells: 36
4 mox diamond
3 trinisphere
4 smokestack
4 goblin welder
3 ensnaring bridge
4 armageddon
1 Bottled Cloister
3 crucible of worlds
4 chalice of the void
3 enlightened tutor
3 Daretti, Scrap Savant

How exactly do you kill people?

[MoT_Pestilence]

How exactly do you kill people?

99% of the time they scoop to be honest. If you've never faced stax before that's where most of their wins come from. Other than that I've killed people with welder beats. You might need 1 wurmcoil or other artifact to end it, but to be honest it might not even be necessary. It hasn't been yet for me in my current build.

[apple713]

Possessed Portal can pretty much shut down most decks, and if we get to Daretti's ultimate, sacrificing an artifact means nothing to us.
(at least that's what it looks like, Portal triggers at beginning of end step at which point you would sac an artifact, then that artifact would return to play at the beginning of the next end step which would be the end step of the next turn correct?)

possessed portal requires a clear board so its not quite as amazing as i would have liked but maybe..... id really like something more solid if possible.


I was thinking about R/W to use SFM and the new Masterwork of ingenuity with Batterskull. Here is what I was tossing around:

Lands
2x ancient den
4x arid mesa
3x great furnace
2x mountain
3x plains
4x plateau
2x scalding tarn
2x flooded strand

Critters
4x batterskull
4x mother of runes
4x goblin welder
4x stoneforge mystic
4x Masterwork of Ingenuity

Removal
3x lightning bolt
4x swords to plowshares

Other
4x faithless looting
3x Daretti
4x tangle wire

SFM allows tutoring for a Bskull or a masterwork. Also another way of cheating it into play. Bolt and Swords are great removal spells. Mom can protect SFM and welder. I am not sure if the masterwork route is really worth going but seemed like a fun card to try and break.

this looks good actually. the curve is good, it allows for card advantage with SFM and recursion with the red cards. mom is a good card to protect with. tangle wire seems a little out of place but id be interested to know how it does. Have you done any testing?


Take from this what you will, but I've top 4'd my local weekly tournament every week for the past 2 months, plus 2 monthly's at another store with this W/r Stax list. I think Daretti would be a perfect fit in it as well. My current list is:

Lands: 24

3 wasteland
2 flagstones of Trokair
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 cavern of souls
1 karakas
1 plains
4 Plataeu
1 great furnace

Spells: 36
4 mox diamond
3 trinisphere
4 smokestack
4 goblin welder
3 ensnaring bridge
4 armageddon
1 Bottled Cloister
3 crucible of worlds
4 chalice of the void
3 enlightened tutor
3 Daretti, Scrap Savant

I have played geddon stax for a few years and never really tried welder because i stopped playing the deck before cavern of souls came out. I'm all for this concept but I'm not sure it'll work. I feel like Etutor is awkward just because of COTV. Daretti may allow you get rid of e tutor for something like batter skull. Batter skull in my opinion is better than wurmcoil just because of mana cost and that they are so comparable. they serves similar purpose, blocking, life gain, 2 permanents for 1 card, plays well with welder.

Questions

was 0 tabernacle a conscious decision or do you not own any?
I always played with 4 ghostly prison, why are you only playing with 3 ensnaring bridges? they serve similar purposes?
How is e tutor working out for you in regards to cotv?
Now that cavern is available does it really help with welder or is it awkward?
possessed portal may be unnecessary but with all the lock going on and welder / daretti its a hard lock to a stalled board state in your favor. have you considered it?
with welder tangle wire has a reasonably good interaction, have you tried tangle wire?

Suggestions

-3 enlightened tutors
-1 armageddon
+2 batterskull
+1 ensnaring bridge
+1 bottled cloister.


I am looking forward to hearing back about this because I have beat plateau's i've been dying to use!

[GenghisTom]

Memnarch is another card that can steal a game if welded in at the right time, especially if chalice is out at 1.
Another reason to play Dack Fayden and Liquimetal Coating

[MoT_Pestilence]

I have played geddon stax for a few years and never really tried welder because i stopped playing the deck before cavern of souls came out. I'm all for this concept but I'm not sure it'll work. I feel like Etutor is awkward just because of COTV. Daretti may allow you get rid of e tutor for something like batter skull. Batter skull in my opinion is better than wurmcoil just because of mana cost and that they are so comparable. they serves similar purpose, blocking, life gain, 2 permanents for 1 card, plays well with welder.

Questions

was 0 tabernacle a conscious decision or do you not own any?
I always played with 4 ghostly prison, why are you only playing with 3 ensnaring bridges? they serve similar purposes?
How is e tutor working out for you in regards to cotv?
Now that cavern is available does it really help with welder or is it awkward?
possessed portal may be unnecessary but with all the lock going on and welder / daretti its a hard lock to a stalled board state in your favor. have you considered it?
with welder tangle wire has a reasonably good interaction, have you tried tangle wire?

Suggestions

-3 enlightened tutors
-1 armageddon
+2 batterskull
+1 ensnaring bridge
+1 bottled cloister.


I am looking forward to hearing back about this because I have beat plateau's i've been dying to use!

Like I said, I've played the deck every week for 2 months, and it's worked really well for me (8 week streak of top 4's). The E-tutor COTV nonbo doesn't really happen as often as you'd think, and maybe with Daretti, it wouldn't be necessary to run, or would be better as it could be discarded to his +. As for Batterskull, I personally like Wurmcoil over it b/c of the interaction with welder. Not saying Batterskull is bad, it makes a 2nd permanent to sac to smokestack and can be bounced, but Wurmcoil is my personal favorite. To each his own though.

Answers:
I don't own any Tabernacle, but it would be included as a spell most likely if I owned one.

I chose Ensnaring Bridge over ghostly prison because it can be brought back with welder, and combos really wellwith Bottled Cloister. I have my prisons in the board for creature match-ups

As above, E-tutor is not a problem under COTV as much as I thought it would be before testing. It's just sequencing, and a lot of the time, the chalice dies or is sac'd to Smokestack when you have a trinisphere lock-down.

Cavern is amazing with welder. Don't know why it wouldn't be. Chalice at 1 protecting from StP, Cavern makes him un-counterable, and then any artifact lock piece countered is just brought back. You don't really fear FoW anymore...or at least near as much.

The cost on possessed portal really is what drew me away from it, and it seems dead until you're already in a board winning position.

Tangle Wire was in the original deck list, but I couldn't find room for it anymore when I tried putting other things in. I really like the card and if you can find room for it, by all means add it. It's really strong.

Maybe do
-3 E-tutor
+ 1 Ensnaring Bridge
+ 1 Bottled Cloister
+ 1 whatever else
I would not suggest dropping Armageddon, I never play a game where I don't want it. It is the game winning card against any Miracles/control deck, and devastates others.

[apple713]

Maybe do
-3 E-tutor
+ 1 Ensnaring Bridge
+ 1 Bottled Cloister
+ 1 whatever else
I would not suggest dropping Armageddon, I never play a game where I don't want it. It is the game winning card against any Miracles/control deck, and devastates others.

In that "whatever else" I feel like 1 threat is needed, of the artifact variety. wurmcoil engine or whatever, but if not than maybe spine of ish sah. bruiser pointed out a very nice interaction with welder and daretti on a previous page.

the land situation looks pretty tight. What would you cut for tabernacle?

armageddon is great however, when i asses how many of each card i want in a deck i consider the following (- frequency - explanation )

4x - more than one a game - if you always want this card as soon as possible and might run more if rules allowed it
3x - only one a game - if you want it every game but multiples would be excessive
2x - once a match - if the card is worthy of inclusion but not necessary and bad in multiples, or it is high on the cmc
1x - once every couple matches - OR if you can tutor it

my methodology also helped me realize trinisphere is really a 3 of.

[MoT_Pestilence]

In that "whatever else" I feel like 1 threat is needed, of the artifact variety. wurmcoil engine or whatever, but if not than maybe spine of ish sah. bruiser pointed out a very nice interaction with welder and daretti on a previous page.

Spine is a nice card, but I wouldn't run it as the 1-of threat. That should be something that ends the game.


the land situation looks pretty tight. What would you cut for tabernacle?

You shouldn't count tabernacle as a land. It doesn't make mana, so it should take a spell slot, otherwise you will start to see mana issues.


armageddon is great however, when i asses how many of each card i want in a deck i consider the following (- frequency - explanation )

4x - more than one a game - if you always want this card as soon as possible and might run more if rules allowed it
3x - only one a game - if you want it every game but multiples would be excessive
2x - once a match - if the card is worthy of inclusion but not necessary and bad in multiples, or it is high on the cmc
1x - once every couple matches - OR if you can tutor it

my methodology also helped me realize trinisphere is really a 3 of.

I really like Armageddon. Maybe that's just me though. I like seeing 2 of them a game.


Some more red mana sources might be necessary. It hasn't been a problem b/c Cavern counts as a red source for Welder, but we don't get that with Daretti.

[apple713]

I've added some of the list mentioned in this thread to the OP and will continue to edit as appropriate.



Spine is a nice card, but I wouldn't run it as the 1-of threat. That should be something that ends the game.
You shouldn't count tabernacle as a land. It doesn't make mana, so it should take a spell slot, otherwise you will start to see mana issues.
I really like Armageddon. Maybe that's just me though. I like seeing 2 of them a game.
Some more red mana sources might be necessary. It hasn't been a problem b/c Cavern counts as a red source for Welder, but we don't get that with Daretti.

maybe spine in board. do you have a sideboard built?

suggest a card out for tabernacle? do you really need tabernacle?

[MoT_Pestilence]

I've added some of the list mentioned in this thread to the OP and will continue to edit as appropriate.




maybe spine in board. do you have a sideboard built?

suggest a card out for tabernacle? do you really need tabernacle?

The sideboard and whether or not to run tabernacle is all a Meta call imo. Where I play it's mostly Miracles and other control decks, so creatures aren't a huge problem. I can show you my board atm, but again, it's build to combat other control decks. We also have 1-2 burn players, and a dredge guy.

2 ghostly prision
3 oblivion ring
3 leyline of sanctity
1 Elspeth
1 COP red
2 supression field
1 Tormods Crypt
2 Humility

Other possible cards
Hannah's Custody
4th Trinisphere
Phyrexian Revoker (for Jace and Lilliana)
Wrath of God
Mindslaver
Jester's Cap
Glow Rider/ Thalia
Ethersworn Cannonist
Thorn of Amethyst
Magus of the Tabernacle
Karmic Justice
Defense Grid
Sphere of Resistence

[bruizar]

Another direction. Counterbalance Control Slaver. The mana base will be typically fetch heavy with some artifact lands.

Planeswalkers 6
3 Daretti, Scrap Savant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifacts 7
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Myr Battlesphere / Sundering Titan / Mindslaver / Possessed Portal / Contagion Engine / Inkwell Leviathan / Sphinx of the Steel Wind

Counters 10
3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce

Draw 13
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Strategic Planning
4 Treasure Cruise

Removal 4
1 Fire // Ice
3 Lightning Bolt


Some things to note:
*Sundering Titan and Possessed Portal counter Treasure Cruise under Counterbalance
*Strategic Planning can be used to dig under Possessed Portal and fills the graveyard
*Fire // Ice over Forked Bolt because it can be pitched to FoW when unnecessary

[LMental]

Ok, here's my build of "Mayor Daretti." As a big Wire fan, I just had to.

Lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
1 Island
1 Academy Ruins
2 Mishra's Factory

Creatures:
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Phyrexian Metamorph

Artifacts:
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mindslaver

Planeswalkers:
3 Daretti, Scrap Savant
2 Dack Fayden
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Other:
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Intuition
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Transmute Artifact


Sideboard:
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Blood Moon
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Lodestone Golem
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Trinisphere
1 Tangle Wire
1 Daretti
1 Smokestack
1 Liquimetal Coating



==========

The numbers may be weird, and they're untested, but I think they actually make some sense.

3 Daretti/1 Jace: Most of the time you'd rather have Daretti, but Jace is the stronger card. So we can have a bit of each. In MUs where you want to be more aggressive and all-in on the graveyard plan, you can switch the Jace for Daretti #4 from the board.

3 TFK/1 Intution/2 Dack/1 Treasure Cruise/1 Transmute Artifact: TFK is obviously a powerhouse in this deck. It requires the least setting up of any of the before-mentioned cards in this deck, and also is the only Daretti enabler that isn't card disadvantage. However, with an active Daretti out, sometimes you'd rather have the precision that Intuition & TA offer; I only run one TA because of the kind of annoying double U in its manacost. Treasure Cruise piggybacks nicely on Dack, Daretti, and TFK, where your graveyard gets really full. You can board in another for grindier matchups.

2 Revoker maindeck, 2 in the board: Revoker is good, but it's very vulnerable. I don't want to go all-in on it, but in MUs where you really want that Pithing effect, you can bring in 2 more.

2 Wurmcoil, 1 Mindslaver: your win-cons. I think they're pretty self-explanatory; I don't want to play more because you're only going to be casting them once the game is pretty under control, or cheating them into play early. Otherwise, they'd clog up the hand.

4 Chrome Mox: I'm not sure this deck can support 4 Chrome Moxes. Perhaps a Mox Daimond/Chrome Mox split would be advisable.

I think this build looks interesting and would be up to test it. Let me know what you all think.

[bruizar]

Ok, here's my build of "Mayor Daretti." As a big Wire fan, I just had to.


I think you can shave off a few cards

*What is the purpose of Dack Fayden? He looks like an expensive loot. I'd place him in the sideboard against artifact mirror matches

*I don't think Intuition is a good card. You'll always end up with your best card in hand (Mindslaver will not go to the graveyard when it is relevant). It's the best non-TFK card I guess, but

*What are you transmuting away with Transmute Artifact, and what do you plan on getting with it? Sacking an artifact for TA only to Entomb an other artifact sounds inefficient. I don't think you can reliably get to 3UU, or even 4UU under Trinisphere and Tangle Wires, which is necessary to get your bombs into play. Otherwise, it's just a bad Entomb.

*I like the Chrome Moxen actually. They enable turn 2 walkers and turn 1 TFK. Also, you can cast a chrome mox without imprinting anything on it, just so you can sack it immediately for Daretti

*Dig Through Time sounds a little better in your list, since you can cast it before you have to tap down for your own Tangle Wire, and you probably want to sculpt a combo hand anyway.

[CheeseGnome]

I'm not really sure about Liquimetal Coating, but if you're gonna run it then what about Karn, Silver Golem as a beater/blocker and to blow up lands for :1:?
He could also be used to swing with Daretti, Scrap Savant/Dack Fayden(when combined with Liquimetal Coating) and Smokestack/Tangle wire or whatever you end up running.

[LMental]

I think you can shave off a few cards

*What is the purpose of Dack Fayden? He looks like an expensive loot. I'd place him in the sideboard against artifact mirror matches

*I don't think Intuition is a good card. You'll always end up with your best card in hand (Mindslaver will not go to the graveyard when it is relevant). It's the best non-TFK card I guess, but

*What are you transmuting away with Transmute Artifact, and what do you plan on getting with it? Sacking an artifact for TA only to Entomb an other artifact sounds inefficient. I don't think you can reliably get to 3UU, or even 4UU under Trinisphere and Tangle Wires, which is necessary to get your bombs into play. Otherwise, it's just a bad Entomb.

*I like the Chrome Moxen actually. They enable turn 2 walkers and turn 1 TFK. Also, you can cast a chrome mox without imprinting anything on it, just so you can sack it immediately for Daretti

*Dig Through Time sounds a little better in your list, since you can cast it before you have to tap down for your own Tangle Wire, and you probably want to sculpt a combo hand anyway.

Good points, thanks. I honestly was contemplating Dack as mostly an expensive loot, so he might be better replaced by +1 TFK and something else. Loot can't be played due to Chalice.

I want to test Intuition, but I see what you mean too. I like the card for its flexibility: in grindy MUs, you can grab something like Academy Ruins/Crucible/Transmute Artifact and set up Waste-lock, whereas you could alternatively grab Daretti as necessary, or a win-con. My thinking behind TA is much the same: sometimes it is just an expensive Entomb, but hopefully in those cases it wins you the game because you have an active Daretti, so it's fine that it's inefficient. In other cases, you can switch out a dead Tangle Wire or an unnecessary Trinisphere for something more useful.

Dig Through Time could be good here, but I still don't think much of double blue, at least without testing. I don't envision this build as particularly combo-centric, though it can combo; it's mostly a prison deck with a combo finish.

Thanks!

[bruizar]

Also, if you're not sure what Chrome Mox plays like in a blue deck, just remember how the Sea Stompy manabase used to work. (UB Tezz is not a good example because you don't run signets and talismans). Though I don't necessarily recommend it, you could even get really cute by playing both Force of Will and one or two Misthollow Griffin's.

[LMental]

Also, if you're not sure what Chrome Mox plays like in a blue deck, just remember how the Sea Stompy manabase used to work. (UB Tezz is not a good example because you don't run signets and talismans)

Hey, I do basically remember how it plays; I'm just not sure I have enough colored things (just 12) to support running 4 (I'm thinking a 3/1 split could work). You make a good point about dead moxen being useful, though. And I never did like Mox Diamond at all.


I'm not really sure about liquimetal coating, but if you're gonna run it then what about Karn, Silver Golem as a beater/blocker and to blow up lands for :1:?
He could also be used to swing with Daretti/Dack(when combined with liquimetal coating) and smokestack/tanglewire or whatever you end up running.

Karn is nice, but I'm not sure there's space; Liquimetal coating would probably go if Dack goes from the maindeck anyways. Currently, I'm thinking that +1 TfK, +1 Daretti could serve as a Dack replacement for the main. Liquimetal and Smokestack could leave the SB and become 2 Dack, mostly to combat Batterskull.

[bruizar]

Look what I found
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=240147&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=97072&type=card

Probably way too slow and inefficient, but you only use it when you can cheat a bomb into play with it.

[bruizar]

More on Control Slaver. As far as I'm concerned, these cards are core:

Izzet Charm
Thirst for Knowledge
Daretti, Scrap Savant


Control Slaver
[20] Land
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Academy Ruins
1 Island

[12] Artifacts
2 Izzet Signet
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives

[06] Planeswalkers
3 Daretti, Scrap Savant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

[04] Artifacts
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Mindslaver

[09] Counters
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Izzet Charm

[08] Draw
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge

[03] Removal
2 Sudden Shock
1 Volcanic Fallout

Sideboard
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip
1 Sudden Shock
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Dack Fayden
1 Pithing Needle
1 Inkwell Leviathan / 1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Possessed Portal / Platinum Angel
1 Null Rod
1 Lantern of Insight


Ideal Turn 1 plays:
Land, Chrome Mox, Chalice of the Void on :1:
Sol land, Chalice of the Void on :1:
Sol land, Chrome Mox, Thirst for Knowledge
Sol land, Izzet Signet

Ideal Turn 2 plays:
Jace, the Mindsculptor
Daretti, Scrap Savant

Single Card Discussion:
Force of Will
Mainly helps resolve planeswalkers

Spell Pierce
Should help you resolve planeswalkers and hold of excessive amounts of lightning bolts. They're dead with Chalice of the Void on one in play, but in that case most of their counters are dead too.

Thirst for Knowledge
It's no Treasure Cruise but it still draws 3 and sets you up for some robot welding.

Brainstorm
Yes, it's good. Especially here, since you may need to shuffle away robots.

Izzet Charm
Discards your bombs
Kills Delver of Secrets, Young Pyromancer, Deathrite Shaman & Monastery Swiftspear (sometimes)
Doubles as a counterspell in the non-aggro matches

Sudden Shock & Volcanic Fallout
The uncounterable removal spells are there to make sure you live through the initial barrage of attacks and bolts from UR Delver decks. Volcanic Fallout addresses the tokens from Young Pyromancer. If you're playing against miracles, you can simply brainstorm or discard them to Thirst for Knowledge, Daretti or Izzet Charm.

[honz]

Daretti needs 2 things to be good: cheap artifacts to sac, and powerful artifacts to cheat into play. Now there is already a very strong card that wants those same 2 things, named kuldotha forgemaster, and there is even a deck built around him, named MUD. Seeing as daretti is just a better goblin welder, the most logical plan would be to put him into welder MUD. This is what I plan on running (note this is 62 cards, so something will need to get cut)


3 Daretti
4 Kuldotha forgemaster
4 Lodestone golem
4 Metalworker
4 Goblin welder
1 Godo, bandit warlord

1 Staff of domination
1 Batterskull
1 Wurmcoil engine
1 Myr battlesphere
1 Sundering titan
1 Blightsteel colossus
1 Platinum emperion
1 Spine of ish sah

4 Chalice of the void
3 Grim monolith
2 Lightning greaves
2 Thousand-year elixir

4 Ancient tomb
4 City of traitors
4 Cavern of souls
4 Great furnace
3 Wasteland
4 Mountain


Sideboard running some combination of: torpor orb, ratchet bomb, phyrexian revoker, tormod's crypt, steel hellkite, duplicant, contagion engine, trinisphere, and blood moon.

Don't sleep on thousand-year elixir here. Haste and double activations on all your important cards is crucial. Twice the mana from metalworker, double welds on monoliths/furnaces for mana, or value on wurmcoils/titans/battlespheres, or getting a 4/7 and a 1/1 token for 1 mana on kuldotha activations. Godo is most likely the weakest card, but lodestone golem might be less desirable as there is competition at 4cc now. A 4th monolith, more wurmcoil/elixir/greaves, and staff of nin being cards that just missed the cut.


I do fear for another commander card ruining the fun:

Containment Priest - 1W
Creature - Human Cleric
Flash
If a nontoken creature would enter the battlefield and it wasn't cast, exile it instead.
2/2

If this sees any large amount of play (and I expect that it will), this deck will suffer. Tragically, there is a distinct lack of playable non-creature artifact "bombs" to cheat into play with kuldotha/welder/daretti. Basically there are 3: contagion engine, spine of ish sah, staff of nin. Although contagion and spine are viable answers, they are not very efficient ones. Whipflare and bonfire of the damned being the other options that come to mind. However this deck doesn't want to be playing the spot removal game in the first place.

[Zupponn]

Karn is nice, but I'm not sure there's space; Liquimetal coating would probably go if Dack goes from the maindeck anyways. Currently, I'm thinking that +1 TfK, +1 Daretti could serve as a Dack replacement for the main. Liquimetal and Smokestack could leave the SB and become 2 Dack, mostly to combat Batterskull.

And if we're thinking about Karn, don't forget the old Gorilla Shaman.

[bruizar]

2 Lightning greaves
2 Thousand-year elixir

If you were running a different, more red mana base, I'd run Hammer of Purphorus since it gives haste and is also a win condition on its own.

Also, would like to mention that Magus of the Bazaar exists.

[Gheizen64]

This is my current Godo+Daretti list:


Tax:
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void

Equip Engine:
1 Lightning Greaves
4 Batterskull
2 Godo, Bandit Warlord
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Daretti, Scrap Savant

Removal:
4 Sudden Shock
3 Ratchet Bomb


Mana:
4 City of Traitors
4 Plateau
4 Boros Signet
2 Arid Mesa
4 Boros Garrison
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls


I need a SB boys!

Some cards explanations:
8 sol lands +4 garrison: i wanted the most consistent mana base possible, with the least risk of mana floods and shit. Garrison helped me a lot because they can bounce your traitors in response to the sac trigger, making it the best land in the deck, plus give 2 of colored mana and can reset ur Cavern too ( Artificer->human).

4 Sphere + 4 CotV: with 8 sol lands, i wanted to maximize the 2 cmc artifacts. Chalice was obviously a no-brainer, but i wanted something else for combo and trini was often too slow because with garrison and a sol land your mana go like this 2->2->4. Trinishpere T3 fucking sucks. So i came back on Sphere. We almost always have a lot of mana with 12 lands that give 2 mana, 4 mana rocks, and 22 lands. Also Daretti and SFM bypass the sphere effects so why not. I also needed something vs elves, and multiple spheres are perfect.

The equipment engine: SFM is the best tinker legacy has. Godo goes without saying as he's autowin if he untap and sometimes even without untapping if you have Greaves into play. Batterskull gain tons of life, recur, and can be cheated by both SFM and Daretti. While Daretti may not seems the best card ever here, it's actually pretty good because it can cycle lategame spheres, chalices, for more board clears (rachet bombs) and threats (Batterskulls). It's also a way to actually activate germ tokens without paying mana cost if you have a batteskull in play and one in the grave.

The removals: Sudden shock are no punishing fire, but they make a nice impression. Split second allow you to be sure to remove any creature and not fear bounce (elves), swarm of tokens in response (Pyromancer), protection (mom), or counters. Ratchet are a 2 mana artifact, which are really good in this deck, and kill every single token and low cmc creatures in general. Really good against elves and delvers, and pyromancers. Plus, with Daretti you can cycle those. It's a pity it's non-instant speed, else you'd kill entreat the angel tokens too.

Thalia is a bit random there but provide a nice tax effect + a nice body for equips. And it get almost always removed at mana parity, which means one less removal for your other creatures. Welder is a possibility in its place since we already play Cavern on artificer anyway, but there isn't a lot to weld in this deck (Daretti has the +2 for it and come down late when you'll probably have artifacts in play and graveyard and/or cards in hand to cycle).

[Karhumies]

If we are talking about conditional cards into a MUD/welder-like shell to be thrown out with Daretti, don't forget about Tsabo's Web, Torpor Orb, Defense Grid, Trinisphere and Ensnaring Bridge. Most of these are SB options to bring in (instead of Ratchet Bomb, Chalice of the Void, mana stones or Engineered Explosives), but nevertheless in a specific FLGS metagame they can deal a lot of damage if you have information about your weekly opponents.



SFM allows tutoring for a Bskull or a masterwork. Also another way of cheating it into play.

Actually, SFM only allows to tutor for a BSkull. Masterwork is not an Equipment while it is in your library.

[Gheizen64]

If we are talking about conditional cards into a MUD/welder-like shell to be thrown out with Daretti, don't forget about Tsabo's Web, Torpor Orb, Defense Grid, Trinisphere and Ensnaring Bridge. Most of these are SB options to bring in (instead of Ratchet Bomb, Chalice of the Void, mana stones or Engineered Explosives), but nevertheless in a specific FLGS metagame they can deal a lot of damage if you have information about your weekly opponents.



Actually, SFM only allows to tutor for a BSkull. Masterwork is not an Equipment while it is in your library.

Actually Masterwork is an equipment, it just don't have an equip cost.

[bruizar]

This is my current Godo+Daretti list:


Tax:
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void

Equip Engine:
1 Lightning Greaves
4 Batterskull
2 Godo, Bandit Warlord
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Daretti, Scrap Savant

Removal:
4 Sudden Shock
3 Ratchet Bomb


Mana:
4 City of Traitors
4 Plateau
4 Boros Signet
2 Arid Mesa
4 Boros Garrison
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls


I need a SB boys!

Some cards explanations:
8 sol lands +4 garrison: i wanted the most consistent mana base possible, with the least risk of mana floods and shit. Garrison helped me a lot because they can bounce your traitors in response to the sac trigger, making it the best land in the deck, plus give 2 of colored mana and can reset ur Cavern too ( Artificer->human).

4 Sphere + 4 CotV: with 8 sol lands, i wanted to maximize the 2 cmc artifacts. Chalice was obviously a no-brainer, but i wanted something else for combo and trini was often too slow because with garrison and a sol land your mana go like this 2->2->4. Trinishpere T3 fucking sucks. So i came back on Sphere. We almost always have a lot of mana with 12 lands that give 2 mana, 4 mana rocks, and 22 lands. Also Daretti and SFM bypass the sphere effects so why not. I also needed something vs elves, and multiple spheres are perfect.

The equipment engine: SFM is the best tinker legacy has. Godo goes without saying as he's autowin if he untap and sometimes even without untapping if you have Greaves into play. Batterskull gain tons of life, recur, and can be cheated by both SFM and Daretti. While Daretti may not seems the best card ever here, it's actually pretty good because it can cycle lategame spheres, chalices, for more board clears (rachet bombs) and threats (Batterskulls). It's also a way to actually activate germ tokens without paying mana cost if you have a batteskull in play and one in the grave.

The removals: Sudden shock are no punishing fire, but they make a nice impression. Split second allow you to be sure to remove any creature and not fear bounce (elves), swarm of tokens in response (Pyromancer), protection (mom), or counters. Ratchet are a 2 mana artifact, which are really good in this deck, and kill every single token and low cmc creatures in general. Really good against elves and delvers, and pyromancers. Plus, with Daretti you can cycle those. It's a pity it's non-instant speed, else you'd kill entreat the angel tokens too.

Thalia is a bit random there but provide a nice tax effect + a nice body for equips. And it get almost always removed at mana parity, which means one less removal for your other creatures. Welder is a possibility in its place since we already play Cavern on artificer anyway, but there isn't a lot to weld in this deck (Daretti has the +2 for it and come down late when you'll probably have artifacts in play and graveyard and/or cards in hand to cycle).
Looks like a solid list. Let me know how it performs. Really curious about that garrisons!

[Gheizen64]

Looks like a solid list. Let me know how it performs. Really curious about that garrisons!

I feel like the lategame is shaky. The biggest problem is not being able to keep a threat on board, especially with all your equipments, and then you get outdrawn. You have no Sylvan Library nor TC for your lategame, and WR planeswalker aren't that good for lategame. Daretti rarely do things on a clear board and cost a fair bit.

[DoorDie]

Just thought I'd chip in on some earlier discussion: Possessed Portal is absolutely filthy with Life from the Loam. You get to dredge through the Portal during your draw step since it's a replacement effect, then simply discard one land each end step. So your board, hand, and graveyard continue to develop while their board and hand grinds to nothing in just a few turns. Something like this with Moment's Peace might be a solid wincon.

I'd been working on a Loam-Welder build with Orcish Lumberjack as an accelerant and Faithless Looting for draw/dredge. Gamble to find the critical one drops. Daretti might be a good fit, I will take a look.

[bruizar]

Just thought I'd chip in on some earlier discussion: Possessed Portal is absolutely filthy with Life from the Loam. You get to dredge through the Portal during your draw step since it's a replacement effect, then simply discard one land each end step. So your board, hand, and graveyard continue to develop while their board and hand grinds to nothing in just a few turns. Something like this with Moment's Peace might be a solid wincon.

I'd been working on a Loam-Welder build with Orcish Lumberjack as an accelerant and Faithless Looting for draw/dredge. Gamble to find the critical one drops. Daretti might be a good fit, I will take a look.

You can simply +1 Daretti until you hit Punishing Fire and burn them out. Very nice catch on the replacement effect of loam. Possessed Portal is gross, as any Arcum EDH players will confirm.

[apple713]

Just thought I'd chip in on some earlier discussion: Possessed Portal is absolutely filthy with Life from the Loam. You get to dredge through the Portal during your draw step since it's a replacement effect, then simply discard one land each end step. So your board, hand, and graveyard continue to develop while their board and hand grinds to nothing in just a few turns. Something like this with Moment's Peace might be a solid wincon.

I'd been working on a Loam-Welder build with Orcish Lumberjack as an accelerant and Faithless Looting for draw/dredge. Gamble to find the critical one drops. Daretti might be a good fit, I will take a look.

sounds interesting however i see the potential problems arising. possessed portal essentially locks game state, how are you dealing with existing threats? Is the deck a modified version of lands?

is possessed portal you're only lock piece or are you combining it with something like mindslaver to improve consistency? I guess running 4x gambles would solve that issue fairly well.

Something i've noticed with faithless and daretti is the card disadvantage really hurts unless you are trying to prison out creatures with ensnaring bridge. They can be offset with 1-2 squee goblin nabob. Maybe i've trying to hard to use this card cause he was the BOMB back in the day when manticore was the best thing since sliced bread.

[DoorDie]

sounds interesting however i see the potential problems arising. possessed portal essentially locks game state, how are you dealing with existing threats? Is the deck a modified version of lands?

is possessed portal you're only lock piece or are you combining it with something like mindslaver to improve consistency? I guess running 4x gambles would solve that issue fairly well.

Something i've noticed with faithless and daretti is the card disadvantage really hurts unless you are trying to prison out creatures with ensnaring bridge. They can be offset with 1-2 squee goblin nabob. Maybe i've trying to hard to use this card cause he was the BOMB back in the day when manticore was the best thing since sliced bread.

I had Lightning Bolt for removal and Wurmcoil Engines as alternate targets to stabilize. Not the most insane setup but it's a starting point. You could also go the lands route; I'm far less knowledgeable about what that would look like.

Gamble does improve the consistency, and I'm leaning really hard on Life from the Loam to buy back the lost card advantage. Also, Lumberjack provides an alternate way to hardcast the expensive things, but it's unclear if the Portal is any good without the graveyard (under RIP). Probably not.

Squee sounds sweet, easy combo with Portal there. An intermediate prison plan could be right. I also wonder if Ensnaring Bridge plays decently with Life from the Loam. You do get to choose how many lands to return, and with enough card disadvantage it could be a good option.

[apple713]

I had Lightning Bolt for removal and Wurmcoil Engines as alternate targets to stabilize. Not the most insane setup but it's a starting point. You could also go the lands route; I'm far less knowledgeable about what that would look like.

Gamble does improve the consistency, and I'm leaning really hard on Life from the Loam to buy back the lost card advantage. Also, Lumberjack provides an alternate way to hardcast the expensive things, but it's unclear if the Portal is any good without the graveyard (under RIP). Probably not.

Squee sounds sweet, easy combo with Portal there. An intermediate prison plan could be right. I also wonder if Ensnaring Bridge plays decently with Life from the Loam. You do get to choose how many lands to return, and with enough card disadvantage it could be a good option.

I've played with loam quite a bit and its fantastic if you don't have to play around RIP or DRS, but unfortunately you do and it becomes less effective as an engine. Neutralizing DRS is huge since most decks play it. Bolt would suffice here. Recursion based decks are prone to use Punishing fire. As mentioned above you can recur P fire under portal to stabilize.

Loam tends to play very well with exploration, and 26+ lands / 24 if you are playing with fetches. Mox diamond is generally an auto include because of synergy and ramp.

in your deck those may not be necessary and a simple loam dredge will probably be sufficient to justify its inclusion.

gamble is nice but if you are solely planning to reanimate portal you may consider entomb since it is 100% what you want, and its good with loam also. Maybe consider it in addition to gamble? kinda depends on how all in you want to be, and if other cards are important to keep in your hand.

I would say
T1 welder, T2 entomb, reanimate > T1 welder, T2 gamble, get lucky

inclusion of black leads to discard as protection and other reanimation effects.

[bruizar]

Punishing Fires addresses most of these issues. It acts as a squee with Grove of the Burnwillows for daretti and kills early attacks. If you have loam, youncan simply keep dredging until punishing fires and grove are in the yard while your opponent has 0 cards and 0 permanents and no carddrawing left. Then you just cast punishing fires a bunch of times and win, so you never need to weld out your possessed portal. You can also just bring back a great furnace and weld that out if you'd like to run that.

If you're afraid of delver, use sudden shocks. I'm not sure what creatures you're worried about that cant be solved with P.fire though. (If youve got a lot of mana you can cast it twice to kill 4-toughness creatures.)

Edit: squee gets eaten by Drs while p fire kills drs and solves the problem while doubling as a squee

Edit2:
Krosan grip answered leyline of the void, rest in piece, pithing needle and grafdiggers cage postboard. Whats nice about possessed portal is that, either your opponent has something against it, or he doesnt. Theres no way to brainstorm yourself out of it (ponder works though). And even if it gets destroyed, you just weld it right back in.

The key thing is to stabilize, that means you need to remove the threats from the table (,punishing fire/ensnaring bridge/planeswalkers like xenagos/garruk relentless/chandra that discards to deal damage)

[apple713]

Punishing Fires addresses most of these issues. It acts as a squee with Grove of the Burnwillows for daretti and kills early attacks. If you have loam, youncan simply keep dredging until punishing fires and grove are in the yard while your opponent has 0 cards and 0 permanents and no carddrawing left. Then you just cast punishing fires a bunch of times and win, so you never need to weld out your possessed portal. You can also just bring back a great furnace and weld that out if you'd like to run that.

If you're afraid of delver, use sudden shocks. I'm not sure what creatures you're worried about that cant be solved with P.fire though. (If youve got a lot of mana you can cast it twice to kill 4-toughness creatures.)

Edit: squee gets eaten by Drs while p fire kills drs and solves the problem while doubling as a squee

to me the deck wants to be a "combo" deck with fast reanimation. If not you leave your self open to being overrun. Hopefully the opponent doesn't land a huge threat greater than 4 toughness.

also you have to balance artifacts in the deck.

I found that a good number of artifacts was somewhere in the ballpark of what tezzeret decks are using which i think is ~20. i can check that number later. Running fewer leaves you with nothing to weld away.

[bruizar]

I can see how you'd like to run entomb as a quasi transmute artifact, but I wouldnt go all in on the combo (then u can just play reanimator).

I used to play a bug control list with Entomb, Vengeful Pharaoh, Darkblast and Life from the Loam. Perhaps vengful pharaoh could also play a role here. It protects daretti and yourself, and drawing it is no problem since you just discard him to daretti.

[DoorDie]

Punishing Fire could work well, I had Crop Rotation to add to the mountain of card disadvantage (just testing) which would then get Grove.

The ideal line with Portal would be T1 Welder off of Great Furnace, T2 Faithless Looting discarding Portal then weld it in for the lock. Either have Loam in hand or Gamble for it. I like Lumberjack in this shell because you can Loam back the land you sacrificed, which leads me to wanting Exploration. But then perhaps Mox Diamond is just a better Lumberjack.

I think combo-prison would be the angle here. A black splash is likely inevitable due to Entomb/Decay/discard shoring up all the weaknesses. I play Reanimator so I certainly don't mind abusing Entomb more.

EDIT: I also have Sensei's Top as way to Ponder and weld. Seems obvious but I figured I should mention it.

[bruizar]

For reference, my old Tombstill list:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22083-Tombstill

[bruizar]

Also, i'd like to point out that there is not much stabilizing to do with possessed portal as it triggers each end step for each player. You can even sack portal to itself once the opponents hand is empty. This matters because you will be able to use daretti's ultimate, which brings back the possessed portal automatically at the end step. So you get your draw while your opponent gets nothing, even if you dont have life from the loam (lets say you only have punishing fires and grove) you would still be able to make possessed portal assymetricif u can ramp to daretti ultimate.

[DoorDie]

Right, Portal is a beating as if you slam it early they'll only have ~10 cards between their hand and board all of which will be gone in 5 turns. That could race a flipped Delver if they didn't draw into any burn, and even casting burn spells just degrades their situation if it doesn't win the game.

Here's a basic build I'm exploring for interactions sake, with P-Fire added as suggested. Obviously being in R/G we can get steamrolled by combo and beat up by anything blue, but the mana is nice so I'd like to keep it that way before demolishing the manabase to make way for DRS and company. Wasteland also seems desirable, but again I'm not worried too much about interaction until the core combo seems stable.

Note that there's no way Chalice will work here due to all the 1-drops, but other prison cards like Ensnaring Bridge or Tangle Wire I would certainly consider. Also not sure where to fit Daretti.

Land (20)

2x Forest
4x Great Furnace
2x Grove of the Burnwillows
2x Mountain
4x Taiga
2x Tree of Tales
4x Wooded Foothills

Sorcery (14)

4x Faithless Looting
4x Gamble
4x Life from the Loam
2x Punishing Fire

Artifact (6)

2x Possessed Portal
4x Sensei's Divining Top

Creature (12)

4x Goblin Welder
4x Orcish Lumberjack
4x Wurmcoil Engine

Instant (8)

4x Crop Rotation
4x Lightning Bolt

Is there a card tag or something I can use for the decklist to show links?

[bruizar]

You can use [ cards ] [/cards ] for links.

I'd cut gamble and crop rotation because both of them open yourself up to losing against yourself (spell pierce on crop rotation, gamble, discard your mana or threat). If you want to use gamble as an entomb, i wouldnt run 4 because you need to have only gamble in hand for that. Also at least 2 basics should be fetch imo.

[DoorDie]

I could be talked out of Crop Rotation, but Gamble really helps in finding Welder though it can and will miss sometimes. Unless we're going Entomb-Reanimate, but the mana will get so much worse if B or R is required early and G is still in.

Almost certainly I don't want all the 4-ofs, the list isn't something I'd even walk into a local gameshop with yet. It's more of a "this card versus that" sort of test.

EDIT: So is just Entomb the splash? I could see that over Gamble if Daretti fills the additional slots as extra Welders, kind of the whole point of the thread I suppose. :tongue: Just need to figure out how to adjust the manabase, or whether to add lands to make Loam better.

[apple713]

Right, Portal is a beating as if you slam it early they'll only have ~10 cards between their hand and board all of which will be gone in 5 turns. That could race a flipped Delver if they didn't draw into any burn, and even casting burn spells just degrades their situation if it doesn't win the game.

Here's a basic build I'm exploring for interactions sake, with P-Fire added as suggested. Obviously being in R/G we can get steamrolled by combo and beat up by anything blue, but the mana is nice so I'd like to keep it that way before demolishing the manabase to make way for DRS and company. Wasteland also seems desirable, but again I'm not worried too much about interaction until the core combo seems stable.

Note that there's no way Chalice will work here due to all the 1-drops, but other prison cards like Ensnaring Bridge or Tangle Wire I would certainly consider. Also not sure where to fit Daretti.

Land (20)

2x Forest
4x Great Furnace
2x Grove of the Burnwillows
2x Mountain
4x Taiga
2x Tree of Tales
4x Wooded Foothills

Sorcery (14)

4x Faithless Looting
4x Gamble
4x Life from the Loam
2x Punishing Fire

Artifact (6)

2x Possessed Portal
4x Sensei's Divining Top

Creature (12)

4x Goblin Welder
4x Orcish Lumberjack
4x Wurmcoil Engine

Instant (8)

4x Crop Rotation
4x Lightning Bolt

Is there a card tag or something I can use for the decklist to show links?

just don't put spaces in from of the number

you are probably gonna have trouble with artifacts to weld into graveyard.

[DoorDie]

just don't put spaces in from of the number

you are probably gonna have trouble with artifacts to weld into graveyard.

It goldfished ok with Crop Rotation since you have 6 artifact lands, 4 tops and 4 Rotations. Once you take that jank out I'm sure the number will be too low, presumably some smaller prison pieces would help.

[apple713]

feel like orcith lumberjack is kinda wasted. you don't really have anything to accelerate into on t2 and t3 wurmcoil is on but if it gets countered it sucks. cause you just 2 for 1'd yourself.

that could easily be something like an artifact.

[DoorDie]

Like Mox Diamond? Ha, yeah could well be. He can cast Daretti on T2 though, and you can Loam back the lands to recoup the card loss. Also he should take some heat off Welder in terms of removal. But I don't consider it a huge loss if he's insufficient for Legacy. If it were black mana you could lead the way with discard, but alas.

Here are the core cards I'm brewing with:

Goblin Welder
Daretti, Scrap Savant
Wurmcoil Engine
Possessed Portal
Life from the Loam


I also noticed a lot of my support card choices were incidental with R/G lands as you suggested earlier, so I could try some angle with that. My only concern with trying other shells is brewing worse versions of them, but hey why not try.

[Memories of the Time]

I think there are many problems in these lists i've seen
-Chalice, Mox Diamond & Loam deck: usual problem. We have only 4x of CotV, and a deck that couldn't play Brainstorm, Sensei diving top and Ponder (and cc1 removal, of course). If we couldn't menage to have CotV in play in the first 2 turns, things gonna be bad, usually. Same story for Trinisphere. Plus, mox diamond+24 lands+2-3 Life from the loam occupy 30 slots yet.
-Non Chalice/mox deck: many too high cc that we can't hope to cast, slow play in a fast metagame (UR Delver, for example, crushes us)

I think the most interesting list we can think about is a Control or Prison one with a bomb to reanimate (creaturless, except for Wurmcoil/Vendillion) or a stuff like grixis with strix, welder and so on.
I never, never want to play a deck with Welder as only removal target. Never.

[bruizar]

Another version I'm trying.

Maindeck
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Talisman of Impulse
3 Gruul Signet

4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
3 Punishing Fire
4 Choke
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Sylvan Library
2 Tangle Wire
3 Goblin Welder
1 Goblin Matron
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Batterskull
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Possessed Portal
1 Contagion Engine

Sideboard
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon / Tormod's Crypt
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sun Droplet
2 Sudden Shock
1 Cursed Totem
1 Raking Canopy
1 Blood Moon
1 Serrated Arrows / Aether Flash

There are several main victory conditions:
- Possessed Portal with Squee or Grove of the Burnwillows and Punishing Fire, cleans up the entire board and hand of your opponent
- Possessed Portal with Daretti, Scrap Savant: Keep ticking Daretti up until you ultimate. Then sacrifice Possessed Portal to itself every turn and bring it back at the end of your turn.
- Contagion Engine with Tangle Wire: Lock the game down until you find a Goblin Welder to bring back some robots (Use discard phase to get them in the graveyard. Also just count decks and deck your opponent)
- Contagion Engine with Tangle Wire and Daretti, Scrap Savant: Ramp to ultimate, then use -2 to bring back anything you drop in the graveyard with +2
- Robo-beats!


I'm not sure whether or not I like the Goblin Welder plan, since he seems so fragile. Still need to test this a bit. I would like to have more things like Tangle Wire, Serrated Arrows and robots. I think Serrated Arrows is particularly good right now against all those x/1 and x/2 creatures, especially combined with Contagion Engine.

[MoT_Pestilence]

I actually just starting testing a stax list with punishing fire. I really like it a lot. The synergy between p. Fire and Daretti is really nice.

[Bobmans]

- Possessed Portal with Daretti, Scrap Savant: Keep ticking Daretti up until you ultimate. Then sacrifice Possessed Portal to itself every turn and bring it back at the end of your turn.

Assuming you have Darreti emblem in play, you sac the Portal at the end of opponent's turn. Then it won't come back to the battlefield that end step since beginning of end step has past. It will come back at the end of your turn allowing you (and opponent) to draw cards in your turn. Am i correct?

[bruizar]

I actually just starting testing a stax list with punishing fire. I really like it a lot. The synergy between p. Fire and Daretti is really nice.

Glad you like it. Although splashing blue for cards like Thirst, Dack and Intuition seems powerful, I don't want to give up the punishing fire engine which is why i'm also on RG.



Assuming you have Darreti emblem in play, you sac the Portal at the end of opponent's turn. Then it won't come back to the battlefield that end step since beginning of end step has past. It will come back at the end of your turn allowing you (and opponent) to draw cards in your turn. Am i correct?

Yes. The end result is that you get to play magic, and your opponent is stuck with zero hand, zero permanents and no draw step. He could theoretically draw cards on your own turn, but given that he has nothing in play or in hand , that will not happen.

[bruizar]

I just want to repost this from the other thread.

Of the top 90 most frequently played nonland cards:
Chalice of the Void at one stops 38.82% of the format
Chalice of the Void at two stops 28.24% of the format
Chalice of the Void at three stops 10.59% of the format

Choke hits 24.71% of the cards. The real number is much higher, probably twice as high at least. The value is low because blue decks are almost never monocolored, it doesn't account for duals nor the fact that Force of Will won't cause lands to tap, and that Daze will actually untap an island. Even with 'bad' analysis we know beyond the shadow of a doubt that Choke hits a quarter of the most popular cards in competitive legacy. I'd estimate the real figure is probably double if you account for dual lands getting tapped to play non-blue spells (Volcanic Island and Tundra decks in particular. e.g. delver and miracles cards)

This also means that Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast have plenty of targets to go around. Burnout can be played if you don't want to have a conflict with Chalice of the Void (although it only hits instants) which is 11.76 % of the cards.

The list I proposed is able to play REBs, Chokes and Chalices. It also runs the Punishing Fires engine. I really like the RG-approach and am currently waiting for the last few cards to finish most of the deck.

EDIT: Checked some more conditional cards.. So here's the list to put everything in perspective:

Chalice of the Void :1: hits 38.82%
Chalice of the Void :2: hits 28.24%
Chalice of the Void :3: hits 10.59%
Choke hits 24.71%
Red Elemental Blast / Pyroblast hits 24.71%
Burnout / Guttural Response hits 11.76
Envelop hits 25.88%
Blue Elemental Blast / Hydroblast hits 12.94%
Spell Snare hits 28.24%
Mental Misstep :) hits 38.82%

[bruizar]

Im trying to decide whether i should run Firespout or Pyroclasm. Which 3 toughness creatures are most prominent right now?

[apple713]

Im trying to decide whether i should run Firespout or Pyroclasm. Which 3 toughness creatures are most prominent right now?

none.



creatures > x/2 goyf, batterskull, mongoose, knight of the reliquary, brimaz, merfolk, 90% of MUD, tombstalker, courser of kruphix, primeval titan, entreat the angels, scavenging ooze, serra avenger

from the looks of it the only additional targets you will hit is mongoose, serra avenger, and possibly merfolk.

pyroclasm is the clear choice imo because its cheaper and hits flying without mana restrictions.



total side note... i was messing around with a list i liked how it flowed but it still needed to be modified just didn't have the time. maybe it can be tinkered with to be adapted to reanimate artifacts with darreti / welder. see below for modded list.

3 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Demigod of Revenge
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Sudden Shock
3 Dack Fayden
4 Faithless Looting
2 Careful Study
3 Treasure Cruise
3 Spell Snare
3 Exploration

lands

1 Island
4 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Volcanic Island
2 Taiga

SB: 4 Repeal
SB: 4 Spell Pierce
SB: 3 Blood Moon
----------------------------

modded

9 open slots

3 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Goblin Welder
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Sudden Shock
3 Dack Fayden
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
3 Treasure Cruise
3 Daretti

also change the land base.

[bruizar]

That's completely different from what I'm playing now. I'm very curious how testing goes. I will be testing my GR build next weekend. This weekend I gold fished and tweaked a lot, so it's time to put it to the test. I have a creatureless build now with 4 Punishing Fires and 3 Firespouts and stuff like contagion engine. The Firespouts will be replaced for Pyroclasms or Whipflares (So I can sideboard in Revokers). Ideally, I'd like something I can use to destroy larger creatures. Is there a GR Terminate-type spell?

PS: So far, Contagion Engine really feels like an MVP. The double proliferate is just so nice. My proliferate targets are Serrated Arrows, Tangle Wire, Karn Liberated, Daretti and Chalice of the Void

[apple713]

That's completely different from what I'm playing now. I'm very curious how testing goes. I will be testing my GR build next weekend. This weekend I gold fished and tweaked a lot, so it's time to put it to the test. I have a creatureless build now with 4 Punishing Fires and 3 Firespouts and stuff like contagion engine. The Firespouts will be replaced for Pyroclasms or Whipflares (So I can sideboard in Revokers). Ideally, I'd like something I can use to destroy larger creatures. Is there a GR Terminate-type spell?

PS: So far, Contagion Engine really feels like an MVP. The double proliferate is just so nice. My proliferate targets are Serrated Arrows, Tangle Wire, Karn Liberated, Daretti and Chalice of the Void

maybe consider the following? maybe too cute
lux cannon
magistrate's scepter
tumble magnet

*EDIT

no Green / red do not have the luxury of destroying permanents.
decimate
beast within
hull breach

are probably your closest bet

[bruizar]

maybe consider the following? maybe too cute
lux cannon
magistrate's scepter
tumble magnet

*EDIT

no Green / red do not have the luxury of destroying permanents.
decimate
beast within
hull breach

are probably your closest bet

Beast Within and Chaos Warp would work. Im using dead // gone in the side to combat big cheated creatures for now, but its not nearly optimized yet.

[tescrin]

SFM:
On mtg-salvation I was brewing a little bit with SFM + BSK + Welder some months back. The idea was that BSK is obnoxious to have stuck in hand, so having 2 sets (and now 3 sets) of cards that cheat it in should be better.

Then the rest of the deck was about increasing Welder value by using Top, Spellbomb, and other versatile value cards. I think the worst case scenario you have an SFM deck, which hoses a good chunk of aggro. Best case scenario you have Top-draw->free giant thing on T2 (T1 Welder, T2 Top, Looting, Top-draw, in response weld Top into wurmcoil/BSK.)

BSK is tutored via SFM which is also nice; as it allows you to get card advantage and consistency in one card. I'd consider some mana-rocks too and maybe go as deep as Bomberman Combo (or maybe side into it.)

Good cards?:
I don't see why you wouldn't just start with a normal mid-range deck idea (Swords + Bolt) while you weld in your "midrange" dudes. Think of it like NO RUG as it were; where they started with a beatdown plan and sometimes combo'd into Prog. The same could be said for Shardless Aluren or Shardless NO.

Thopters:
I could see a splash of blue with Thopter Combo as well; since blue is good to have, and Swords and/or thopters are free abusable pieces. Note that a mid-game welder can get a SotM attached to him for free; which is pretty spectacular.

Something like:
4 Welder
4 Stoneforge
X Thalia?
3 Daretti

4 Lodestone Golem
1 Batterskull
2 Wurmcoil
3 Faithless Looting
1 Sword of the Meek

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Thopter Foundry
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt

bunch of lands.


The idea is clear: I'm going to outvalue you. It's weak to combo; but you are in Patriot colors; I'm sure you can manage if your Thalia/Lodestone didn't land.

Despite how "Top-heavy" this looks, it has 23 1-drops and a couple non-land slots open. Rather than going the typical pitfall of "Super awesome T1 play! I lose to topdecks. :(" you play "This deck is filled with ridiculous cards and combos. Come at me"


Disclaimer: The above could be a complete garbage.

[Gheizen64]

This is a list i've been trying now. It was testing it with survival, but then found out it was still as good without survival honestly, so:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Goblin Welder
3 Punishing Fire
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Sundering Titan
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
4 Sylvan Library
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Life from the Loam
1 Bow of Nylea
1 Hammer of Purphoros
2 Commune with the Gods
2 Contagion Engine

4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb


This is largely unoptimized. The Caryatids were put it initially as an alternative to rockstones to fuel Survival, but then i found the ability to block pretty relevant, and the hexproof mean they're basically as hard to remove as rockstones. Contagion Engine was an MVP against UR Delvers and Patriots, so i upped them to 2, especially without a way to tutor them reliably. Hammer of Purphoros was an Anger which was a lot better with survival, but without it i'd rather have an artifact with a similar function. You are able to sacrifice the tokens to daretti and Welder so it's not bad at all. Loam was a singleton squee for Survival card advantage, but loam proved really useful in putting random robots and fires into the graveyard, all the while fueling wastelocks. Bow was a singleton that i tryed as an anti-delver card, but as a singleton i've never drew it so dunno. Commune with the gods can find a lot of things while filling the graveyard in the meanwhile so i tried it but it's a bit slow (if it said "or planeswalker" too it would've been really good here).

I'd probably cut singletons and Communes and try something that allow me to draw + discard more reliably together with Daretti. Liliana or Grisly Salvage would be good, but then you go 3-color. Lootings are 1 cmc. Frantic search would be another really good card as it can give mana and filter your hand reliably but it's banned. Thirst is somewhat similar but again 3-color dunno. Survival would be really good because of the anger->fattie->welder chain.

EDIT: this is what i'm trying now:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Goblin Welder
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Sundering Titan
3 Daretti, Scrap Savant
4 Izzet Signet
4 Izzet Charm
2 Dack Fayden
4 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Contagion Engine
3 Trinisphere

4 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Great Furnace
4 Volcanic Island
4 Seat of the Synod


Dack is so good wow.

EDIT2: oh damn you don't actually unequip the batterskull with Dack damn, that's a lot worse. Bah.

[bruizar]

Gheizen: I saw you moved away from Life from the Loam as you cut green. Which of the two builds did you like more?

I tested a Dackretti build too, since you gain access to Intuition and Thirst for knowledge. However, the RG build just played more intuitively for me. Punishing Fire is a card I cannot play without as it complements the prison game plan so well. I tested Crucible of Worlds since I sold off my Life from the Loams but Loam looks a lot more promising for a number of reasons, namely:

1) It's not an artifact, which makes it harder to hate the deck out postboard
2) Dredging artifacts, punishing fire and lands into the graveyard is a draw engine that is affordable and potent. Prison decks usually have to live off the top of the library, but Loam just makes it more explosive. Prison decks aren't really used to digging 3 cards
3) Life from the Loam with Daretti is a crazy draw engine, which, like Punishing Fire translates to tap two lands -> draw two cards.
4) Ensures your Grove of the Burnwillows come back should they be wasted
5) Sets up the weld
6) I'm not sure how it works with Sylvan Library, but if your first card draw is a dredged loam, you get to see 5 cards deep right?
(Draw 21: Dredge 1st, 2nd and 3rd card, draw #2 4th card, draw #3 5th card)

I can totally recommend running at least Tangle Wire, since it wins the game with Contagion Engine

[apple713]

6) I'm not sure how it works with Sylvan Library, but if your first card draw is a dredged loam, you get to see 5 cards deep right?
(Draw 21: Dredge 1st, 2nd and 3rd card, draw #2 4th card, draw #3 5th card)


I'm pretty sure that the cards you draw after the loam require life if you want to keep them. but ya you can go 5 deep.

how's the consistency of the RG version working for you? Consistency is a big deal right now among all decks in the format. If your deck isn't consistent its really not a contender.

[bruizar]

I'm pretty sure that the cards you draw after the loam require life if you want to keep them. but ya you can go 5 deep.

how's the consistency of the RG version working for you? Consistency is a big deal right now among all decks in the format. If your deck isn't consistent its really not a contender.

Daretti and Sylvan Library really help with consistency actually. Since the curve isn't really that high compared to MUD-style decks, I usually have enough spells to have some early game action. I really need to put in a few days of testing with some friends but atm I'm so busy I can't really afford the time. Hopefully I will be able to do that during the xmas break.

The main weakness I see right now is against decks where I'm not playing against blue due to the dead chokes. Daretti and Sylvan Library allow me to get rid of dead cards, which is a quality that prison style decks usually don't have, but running dead cards is still a big risk because it requires resources to convert them into business spells. Another weakness is against unfair decks like reanimator and such. I haven't found a satisfying solution to that yet.

With 3 contagion engines, 2 serrated arrows and 4 punishing fires decks like Death & Taxes should be very doable even though you run 4 chokes. Ancient Grudge from the side can deal with Revokers and Aether Vials.

I think, in its current form, decks like Nic Fit, Burn and Turbo Eldrazi are bad matchups, but UR and Miracles should be favorable. However, every matchup is winnable if you can resolve the appropriate lock pieces (particularly tangle wire with contagion engine). The deck may also be a little threat light. It has inevitability, but legacy decks don't always give you inevitability if you fail to prison someone.

[apple713]

Daretti and Sylvan Library really help with consistency actually. Since the curve isn't really that high compared to MUD-style decks, I usually have enough spells to have some early game action. I really need to put in a few days of testing with some friends but atm I'm so busy I can't really afford the time. Hopefully I will be able to do that during the xmas break.

The main weakness I see right now is against decks where I'm not playing against blue due to the dead chokes. Daretti and Sylvan Library allow me to get rid of dead cards, which is a quality that prison style decks usually don't have, but running dead cards is still a big risk because it requires resources to convert them into business spells. Another weakness is against unfair decks like reanimator and such. I haven't found a satisfying solution to that yet.

With 3 contagion engines, 2 serrated arrows and 4 punishing fires decks like Death & Taxes should be very doable even though you run 4 chokes. Ancient Grudge from the side can deal with Revokers and Aether Vials.

I think, in its current form, decks like Nic Fit, Burn and Turbo Eldrazi are bad matchups, but UR and Miracles should be favorable. However, every matchup is winnable if you can resolve the appropriate lock pieces (particularly tangle wire with contagion engine). The deck may also be a little threat light. It has inevitability, but legacy decks don't always give you inevitability if you fail to prison someone.

do u have an updated list, the one on this page seems outdated, since it doesn't have 3 contagion engines.

[Phelix]

I'm pretty sure that the cards you draw after the loam require life if you want to keep them. but ya you can go 5 deep.

how's the consistency of the RG version working for you? Consistency is a big deal right now among all decks in the format. If your deck isn't consistent its really not a contender.

If you dredge the draw phase card, you have not drawn a card yet, and sylvan will provide a free draw for you. (Looking at two cards)

[bruizar]

[LANDS 20]
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills

[CORE 35]
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
2 Karn Liberated
4 Punishing Fire
4 Tangle Wire
2 Serrated Arrows
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Contagion Engine
4 Trinisphere
4 Choke
2 Gruul Signet
3 Talisman of Impulse
[FLEX]
3 Sylvan Library
2 Batterskull
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord
1 Contagion Engine

As you can see, I'm running 2 cards too many, but this isn't much of a problem as I'm still trying to figure out which cards are absolutely necessary and which are not. I'm considering:
-1 tangle wire
-1 contagion engine (not sure yet; move to sideboard)
+1 Batterskull

[apple713]

[LANDS 20]
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills

[CORE 35]
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
2 Karn Liberated
4 Punishing Fire
4 Tangle Wire
2 Serrated Arrows
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Contagion Engine
4 Trinisphere
4 Choke
2 Gruul Signet
3 Talisman of Impulse
[FLEX]
3 Sylvan Library
2 Batterskull
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord
1 Contagion Engine

As you can see, I'm running 2 cards too many, but this isn't much of a problem as I'm still trying to figure out which cards are absolutely necessary and which are not. I'm considering:
-1 tangle wire
-1 contagion engine (not sure yet; move to sideboard)
+1 Batterskull

id probably suggest -1 contagion, -1 karn. no need to add more batter skulls. godo needs a batter skulls so if you have 1 in hand he's just overcosted, so run 2. contagion engine is expensive so i could see cutting it down along with Karn. Id imagine Karn sits in your hand while you are trying to get the mana for him. He's also not an artifact so lack of synergy.

[bruizar]

thanks for the feedback.

I was considering trying out garruk relentless over karn, but i think the powerlevel is a little too low. I like that he can make deat h touch tokens and search up the singleton godo as well as bolt a creature.

[MoT_Pestilence]

You could drop a trinisphere. 3 is almost always the correct number IMO. It also doesn't really play well with punishing fire.

[deadlock]

Is there still interest in the deck? I made the following fun list:

3 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Great Furnace
3 Cavern of Souls

3 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Mox Diamond

3 Goblin Welder
3 Daretti, Scrap Savant

3 Bonfire of the Damned

The usual problem of red mud is the manabase, which I try to fix with Mox Diamond instead of Grim Monolith. Its less explosive, but enables this build in the first place. I like the idea of Bonfire, because it can burn out Plainswalker and is a way to interact with opposing creatures.

[MoT_Pestilence]

I would replace the glimmer posts with grove of the burnwillows and the bonfires with punishing fires. They still hit creatures, it helps with the red mana, and punishing fire works really well with daretti's +2

[bruizar]

I went 2-1-2 with daretti last weekend. Could have easily been 4-1 as all matches besides reanimator were winnable.

[MoT_Pestilence]

With what kind of list? More MUD or stax or neither?

[bruizar]

The above list, -2 Karn, +1 life from the loam +1 ensnaring bridge.

[MoT_Pestilence]

I need some input on the list I am taking to the SCG this weekend, and most likely to the larger Legacy one at the end of the month. It's been treating me really well at my LGS. Need help with the sideboard and just general input. In testing Burn has been the worst matchup, U/r Delver has been a little less than 50/50 pre-board, really depends on the die-roll, but much better after boarding. I have solid Matchups against any control deck and combo. If you have any questions about why something is in there, or don't think something should be, bring it up. I want to have to defend my opinion and choices.

Lands: 26

3 wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
3 cavern of souls
4 Plateu
1 Karakas
1 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Maze of Ith

Spells: 36
4 mox diamond
3 trinisphere
4 smokestack
4 goblin welder
4 ensnaring bridge
3 crucible of worlds
4 chalice of the void
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
4 Punishing Fire

Sideboard: 15
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Oblivion Ring
3 COP: Red
3 Pyroclasm
3 Armageddon

[Kunfuzed]

MoT_Pestilence's report from SCG Columbus 5k:

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/583318-scg-iq-results?comment=6

Lands: 24
4 Plateau
4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

4 Goblin Welder
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
3 Trinisphere
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Punishing Fire
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Batterskull
1 Moat

Sideboard:
3 Circle of Protection: Red
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Pyroclasm
3 Tormod’s Crypt

[NormalGuy]

Below is the list I ran at SCG Philly. I went 0/4/drop but learned some good stuff. Here's some thoughts for anyone interested.

Platinum Angel didn't work very well, I would typically get my life total negative then get the angel blown up by jitte or Swords. I think Platinum Emperion would have performed better in this spot.
I never had a chance to cast Trash for Treasure so I don't really know if it would have been any good, but I'll probably drop it because it's just generally worse then Daretti.
Copper Gnomes seemed pretty good against graveyard hate, and have synergy with welder, although I didn't get to use them as much as I'd hoped to.
I got a lot of use out of Serrated Arrows they were just a bit hard to get into play sometimes at a cost of 4.
Darksteel Forge was completely useless, I never wanted to go fetch it and boarded it out every chance I got.
Shriekhorn was pretty awesome and got a lot of use, you can dump cards into the yard and then weld it out for whatever it put there. This would have been amazing with a white splash and Enlightened Tutor
Ichor Wellspring underperformed for me. I was frequently stuck with them on the board with no way to weld them out. But when I could get them working it was a pretty nice draw engine. Not sure what I'm going to do with these.
Blood Moon always performs well. I think every time I stuck a moon it was a game win.

I'm going to keep tooling around with this deck, I think my next move is going to be to try out the Punishing Fire / Grove of the Burnwillows combo and go for more of a prison style.


// Lands
8 [B] Mountain
4 [MR] Great Furnace
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
3 [US] Copper Gnomes
1 [PD3] Inkwell Leviathan
1 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
1 [MR] Platinum Angel
4 [UL] Goblin Welder

// Spells
3 [HL] Serrated Arrows
2 [C14] Daretti, Scrap Savant
1 [DS] Darksteel Forge
1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
1 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
2 [MR] Trash for Treasure
4 [US] Gamble
4 [MBS] Shriekhorn
4 [MBS] Ichor Wellspring
4 [DKA] Faithless Looting
4 [DK] Blood Moon

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Copper Gnomes
SB: 4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
SB: 4 [ISD] Witchbane Orb
SB: 2 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb

[bruizar]

This was my second tournament. 2-1-2 again. Struggled to close out games again, leading to draws and losses.

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
2 Life from the Loam
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Punishing Fire
4 Tangle Wire
2 Serrated Arrows
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Contagion Engine
3 Trinisphere
4 Choke
3 Talisman of Impulse
3 Sylvan Library
1 Ensnaring Bridge

1 tanglke wire and all Trinispheres should go out of the deck entirely for 4 more threats. 3sphere did a lot of nothing.

@normalguy: serrated arrows works really well for me too

[NormalGuy]

This was my second tournament. 2-1-2 again. Struggled to close out games again, leading to draws and losses.

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
2 Life from the Loam
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Punishing Fire
4 Tangle Wire
2 Serrated Arrows
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Contagion Engine
3 Trinisphere
4 Choke
3 Talisman of Impulse
3 Sylvan Library
1 Ensnaring Bridge

1 tanglke wire and all Trinispheres should go out of the deck entirely for 4 more threats. 3sphere did a lot of nothing.

@normalguy: serrated arrows works really well for me too

How well did the Tangle Wire / Contagion Engine lock work? I'm thinking about trying out a more proliferate heavy strategy using something like Core Prowler or Throne of Geth

[Cybey]

Through reddit came across this list: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/583318-scg-iq-results#c6 with report.
This player used the following list:
4 Plateau
4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

4 Goblin Welder
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
3 Trinisphere
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Punishing Fire
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Batterskull
1 Moat

Sideboard:
3 Circle of Protection: Red
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Pyroclasm
3 Tormod’s Crypt


He already suggested that he was looking to cut white, since Moat was underperforming

[bruizar]

How well did the Tangle Wire / Contagion Engine lock work? I'm thinking about trying out a more proliferate heavy strategy using something like Core Prowler or Throne of Geth

Only one of the games was won solely by the grace of tarmogoyf; the rest was tangle wire and contagion engine. Tangle Wire is really, really good. It's one of the best cards in the deck, even without contagion engine. It buys you a few turns, allows you to build a board without getting swarmed. Trinisphere on the other hand, does nothing. Choke with Tangle Wire works good, because the relative power of wire doesn't deplete as fast with a choke in play.

[-Spooky-]

Through reddit came across this list: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/583318-scg-iq-results#c6 with report.
This player used the following list:
4 Plateau
4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

4 Goblin Welder
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
3 Trinisphere
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Punishing Fire
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Batterskull
1 Moat

Sideboard:
3 Circle of Protection: Red
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Pyroclasm
3 Tormod’s Crypt


He already suggested that he was looking to cut white, since Moat was underperforming

Do you have a link to the Reddit thread?

[Cybey]

Do you have a link to the Reddit thread?

There ya go: http://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/2rpfcx/scg_columbus_legacy_5k_tournament_report_24th/

[MoT_Pestilence]

If you guys have any questions that weren't answered in the reddit thread feel free to ask. I had a lot of fun with the deck.

[NormalGuy]

I'm gonna try something close to this list at my LGS tomorrow night assuming my cards arrive in time. I've never played a stax deck before so it should be interesting. If anyone has any suggestions I'd be happy to hear them. My SB at the moment is just some revokers, needles, thorns, ratchet bombs, and witchbane orbs. I wasn't really sure what else to put in there, maybe a few pyroclasm. I might swap some of the Furnace's for fetches too. I really want to try out a tangle wire / proliferate plan too at some point.


// Lands
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Taiga
4 Great Furnace
4 Wasteland

// Creatures
1 Myr Battlesphere
4 Goblin Welder

// Spells
4 Punishing Fire
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere
1 Chalice of the Void
4 Life from the Loam
3 Gamble
4 Mox Diamond
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant


I went with Loam over Crucible so that I could use it with Daretti's +2 to mill 3 cards into the yard. I chose Battlesphere over another threat because it makes tokens that can be sacked to smokestack, although I'm not sure if that's actually going to be relevant.

[Sleight]

Wurmcoil would probably be better than battlesphere.

[MoT_Pestilence]

I would really suggest some sort of sweeper in the board. Elves and young pyromancer and even DnT can drop a lot of permanents that you need to clear. I'm trying slice and dice ATM and like it so far, but you can't go wrong with pyroclasm. Needle in the board is iffy IMO because you run into chalice problems with it. I also think you may have a problem casting your battlesphere, 7 is a fair amount of mana. These are just all my suggestions though. Let us know how it goes. I'm going to try ruination in my board tonight. I miss Armageddon but don't want to splash for it, so I'm going to see how it does as a replacement

[Krimson Viper]

I know that there's a decent amount of life loss because of Ancient Tomb, but would Eidolon of the Great Revel be a decent SB card for all of the UR/x decks out there? Most of the cards that are cast are three and above.

[MoT_Pestilence]

Their life points don't matter against you and it just gets bolted. I don't think its that good.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I guess this is a necro now, but I took first at a small local event with this list:

Daretti Stax

4 Plateau
4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Great Furnace

4 Goblin Welder
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
3 Trinisphere
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Punishing Fire
4 Crucible of Worlds
1 Scuttling Doom Engine

Sideboard:

4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Armageddon
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Tormod’s Crypt

Beat Affinity in 2, BURG Delver in 3 after punting game 2, and Burn in 3 after mulling to oblivion game one. The deck felt very strong and quite consistent for a Chalice-based deck. I played the Doom Engine because I do not own a Mindslaver, and it provided an exceptionally fast clock combined with all the Welder and Smokestack shenanigans.

[Ruckusmh]

I really like the concept, huge fan of prison type decks and I think Daretti has a lot of play to him, very versatile.

Have you had a chance to play against Miracles or something similar? One of my concerns with a list like this is that if you are unable to close a game out quickly, the mana punishment just doesn't do much.

[Megadeus]

Maybe sudden demise in the board for elves/DnT?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Maybe sudden demise in the board for elves/DnT?

Pyroclasm is probably fine honestly. I prefer Ratchet Bomb because it gives us outs to random hate permanents like Rest in Peace as well as creatures (also there's no Elves in my meta).


I really like the concept, huge fan of prison type decks and I think Daretti has a lot of play to him, very versatile.

Have you had a chance to play against Miracles or something similar? One of my concerns with a list like this is that if you are unable to close a game out quickly, the mana punishment just doesn't do much.

Not yet. I've played against Miracles with plenty of other Stax decks though, and the matchup is usually at least a little favorable (a blowout in the case of Braids-based Stax) for Stax. In this deck, you bring in some combo of O-Ring, Ratchet, and Armageddon.

[kingtk3]

Has Wildfire been discussed? Is a land destruction and sweeper in one card, though it costs 6.

[(nameless one)]

Wildfire sounds great but the issue is once you decrease your artifact density, the value of Daretti and Welder goes down.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Wildfire sounds great but the issue is once you decrease your artifact density, the value of Daretti and Welder goes down.

Wildfire also costs 6, which is way more than you want to spend casting a non-artifact card in this deck. At least expensive artifacts can be discarded and then welded back in.

[(nameless one)]

Wildfire also costs 6, which is way more than you want to spend casting a non-artifact card in this deck. At least expensive artifacts can be discarded and then welded back in.

You're list reminds me of the original Stephen Menendian Stax deck. You basically replaced Grafted Skullcap with Daretti and Powder Kegs with Punishing Fire. I love it.

[Krasman]

Just posting a deck to keep the thread going.

This is very different then what has been posted here so far, but this is my current build for a Welder/Daretti deck.

Note: I was running Faithless Looting/Kuldotha Forgemaster package over Chalice/Trinisphere but the combo match up was to weak.

//Artifact (21)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Coercive Portal
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
3 Staff of Domination
2 Trading Post
3 Trinisphere

//Artifact Creature (10)
4 Metalworker
2 Sundering Titan
2 Triskelion
2 Wurmcoil Engine

//Planeswalker (3)
3 Daretti, Scrap Savant

//Creature (4)
4 Goblin Welder

//Land (22)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
2 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
4 Mountain

SB: 1 Banefire
SB: 2 Chaos Warp
SB: 2 Razormane Masticore
SB: 3 Sudden Demise
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Whipflare
SB: 2 Witchbane Orb

[Admiral_Arzar]

You're list reminds me of the original Stephen Menendian Stax deck. You basically replaced Grafted Skullcap with Daretti and Powder Kegs with Punishing Fire. I love it.

Thanks. It was kind of an amalgamation of several different lists I found while digging through this thread, so I can't really take full credit for it lol. I basically gutted the sideboard though, Leyline is too good not to play. A buddy of mine is interested in developing an R/G version (since we're already playing 4 Grove, green makes a lot of sense as a splash) so it'll be interesting to see where that goes. What I have realized lately is that you can add basically any splash color or engine to the basic Stax shell (which goes all the way back to Menedian).

[Mr. Headshot]

I'm also interested in developping an R/G stax shell. Are there any good green stax cards?

[DireLemming]

Eons ago there was Sun Tower: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5006-Primer-Sun-Tower-(RG-UbaStax)&highlight=Sun+Tower

[Admiral_Arzar]

Well, I tried out a mono-red version of this deck and took second in a small local event. I lost to Miracles after misplaying in turns game 3, beat R/G Lands, and then beat another Miracles player. Here is the list:

Daretti Stax (mono-red)

4 Goblin Welder
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
1 Mindslaver
4 Punishing Fire
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Great Furnace
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Mountain

Sideboard

3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Ratchet Bomb
4 Blood Moon
4 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Trinisphere

The deck performed well although I mulliganned a lot as expected. I probably could have beat or at least drawn with the first Miracles player if I had mulliganned and played better. Sideboard is primarily for BUG and Show and Tell decks, although Revoker and Bomb are useful against a lot of things.

[GoblinSettler]

Well, I tried out a mono-red version of this deck and took second in a small local event. I lost to Miracles after misplaying in turns game 3, beat R/G Lands, and then beat another Miracles player. Here is the list:

Daretti Stax (mono-red)
...


Nothing constructive to add, but thanks for posting these lists. I was feeling stuck and disappointed with my own mono-red list. Your R/w list gave me a reason to pick up that fourth Plateau and I've been enjoying playing it.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Nothing constructive to add, but thanks for posting these lists. I was feeling stuck and disappointed with my own mono-red list. Your R/w list gave me a reason to pick up that fourth Plateau and I've been enjoying playing it.

Awesome, glad to know that somebody is playing it as it's a fun deck lol.

[bruizar]

Well, I tried out a mono-red version of this deck and took second in a small local event. I lost to Miracles after misplaying in turns game 3, beat R/G Lands, and then beat another Miracles player. Here is the list:

Daretti Stax (mono-red)


How fast were you able to close games, or did they just give up on you? I was really struggling trying to close games with my Daretti lists and kept going to time. If all games were played out I would have won all the matchups the tournaments i played in, but not in the 50 minutes..

[Redkid43]

Had any body tried Daretti with Loam?

I feel like it's worth noting that with artifact lands, dredging and Mindslaver, you can slaver lock them pretty easily.

[bruizar]

I do use 2 loams in my build although I havent touched magic for a while now and should probably update it. The dredge is invaluable for setting up strong welds. For reference my outdated list:

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
2 Life from the Loam
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Punishing Fire
4 Tangle Wire
2 Serrated Arrows
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Contagion Engine
3 Trinisphere
4 Choke
3 Talisman of Impulse
3 Sylvan Library
1 Ensnaring Bridge

It was pretty good at locking people out, very bad at closing games out. Serrated Arrows and Contagion Engine were insanely strong against decks like elves.

[Undomian]

It's probably pretty bad, but this card looks super sweet with Daretti.

http://i.imgur.com/A4c7NTt.png

[AlterEgo]

1 - it costs {5}
2 - lifegain clause is useless (atm)
3 - Ensnaring Bridge disapproves

It's an interesting effect, but I'll leave it to Commander.

[Gheizen64]

It's probably pretty bad, but this card looks super sweet with Daretti.

http://i.imgur.com/A4c7NTt.png

If you play a glimmerpost and daretti version, this is pretty sweet. The protective orbs seems pretty sweet too as they basically kill tokens and whatsnot.

I'm trying this version right now:

4 City of Traitors
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
2 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
4 Gruul Signet
4 Gruul Turf
3 Wasteland
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Trinisphere
2 Contagion Engine
1 Alhammarret's Archive
4 Tangle Wire
SB: 3 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Duplicant
SB: 3 Spine of Ish Sah

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

Your list is interesting but the main deck is missing two cards .

[Gheizen64]

Really? In any case i'm not running the archive anymore, crystal Ball or something is prob just better

EDIT: you're right i was actually running a 58 cards deck lol. I replaced Alhammreth with 3 Sylvan Library, let's see if the mana is good enough for it.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

Really? In any case i'm not running the archive anymore, crystal Ball or something is prob just better

EDIT: you're right i was actually running a 58 cards deck lol. I replaced Alhammreth with 3 Sylvan Library, let's see if the mana is good enough for it.

I don't know what you were trying to do but your green splash had no green spells . Maybe you were thinking of playing Choke ?

[Gheizen64]

I don't know what you were trying to do but your green splash had no green spells . Maybe you were thinking of playing Choke ?

There was no green splash. The deck was mono-red. I just happened to play karoos and signets that are also green because there aren't any monocolor ones.

That also opened the possibility of playing some green cards, but any other secondary color could do fine.

EDIT: after discovering the power of explore + karoos, i further evolved the list. The only problem i have with it now are:

- tangle wire felt so-so a lot of times. Choke is probably better if you run 12 green sources like i do.
- contagion engine is a good card, but i feel like i want more bombs that can close the game by themselves or give mass card advantage. Contagion engine often don't do that much, beside making me win randomly vs elves and ramping Ugin to ultimate 1 turn faster.

Maybe i need more wincon, but walkers + draw + p.fire seems to work fine tbh:


Lock:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Tangle Wire

Wincons:
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Engine and accelleration:
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
4 Sylvan Library
4 Punishing Fire
4 Gruul Signet
4 Explore

Lands:
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 City of Traitors
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Gruul Turf

SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Duplicant
SB: 2 Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 2 Contagion Engine
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap

[Admiral_Arzar]

There was no green splash. The deck was mono-red. I just happened to play karoos and signets that are also green because there aren't any monocolor ones.

That also opened the possibility of playing some green cards, but any other secondary color could do fine.

EDIT: after discovering the power of explore + karoos, i further evolved the list. The only problem i have with it now are:

- tangle wire felt so-so a lot of times. Choke is probably better if you run 12 green sources like i do.
- contagion engine is a good card, but i feel like i want more bombs that can close the game by themselves or give mass card advantage. Contagion engine often don't do that much, beside making me win randomly vs elves and ramping Ugin to ultimate 1 turn faster.

Maybe i need more wincon, but walkers + draw + p.fire seems to work fine tbh:


Lock:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Tangle Wire

Wincons:
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Engine and accelleration:
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
4 Sylvan Library
4 Punishing Fire
4 Gruul Signet
4 Explore

Lands:
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 City of Traitors
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Gruul Turf

SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Duplicant
SB: 2 Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 2 Contagion Engine
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap


This list is interesting, but I am super apprehensive at running Karoos in a format full of Wasteland, the blowout potential is just insanely high. As for Tanglewire, I have argued for a long time that that card is bad in Legacy (we lack all the zero-mana artifacts to tap that make it good in Vintage), so I would definitely cut it for something like Choke.

[bruizar]

Tangle Wire works very well alongside Choke. For me, Tangle Wire is often one of those cards that look useless but end up winning me the game. It buys you the time needed to address problem areas and often serves as a double time walk when I play it. It may or may not work in your build, but Tangle Wire, as a legacy card, I find rather useful.

[The Nobodys]

Hi, I've been tooling around with a Daretti Welder deck as my second Legacy deck for about six months. Initially it was more of a prison/stax like deck, but I really wanted more of an instant payoff from artifact recursion, so I added Painter/Stone into the mix and I've been pleased with its direction since then. I still feel there are a lot of uncertain spots in my list, and as I never actually end up entering this deck in any events, my playtesting has been limited to Lands, Enchantress, Tezz, and RUG Delver for the most part.

Here's what I have right now:

CREATURES: (10)
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
2 Wurmcoil Engine

OTHER PERMANENTS: (18)
4 Grindstone
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Voltaic Key
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Spine of Ish Sah

INSTANTS/SORCERIES: (7)
4 Gamble
3 Faithless Looting

MANA SOURCES (25)
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
2 Great Furnace
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Mountain
4 Grim Monolith
1 Mox Opal

SB:
4 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ward of Bones
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Winter Orb
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Platinum Emperion

I'm very curious to know about having Sphere of Reisistance in the maindeck, as sort of an alternate for turn 1 Chalice. I love Chalice as a way to keep up with Brainstorm decks, but with Welder, Grindstone, Looting and Gamble all being CMC=1, I'm hoping that Sphere can kind of replace that quick disruption that Chalice offers. I've also been considering Chaos Warp, and wonder how it performs.

(PS, this is my first post on TheSource, and would love to know how to add card tags for decklists. I did more than a cursory look around the forum rules, and couldn't find how to add them to posts, thanks!)

[bruizar]

Only have minor adjustments to the list, but here goes.

// Welding [5]
3 Daretti, Scrap Savant
2 Goblin Welder

// Bombs [4]
1 Possessed Portal
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Sundering Titan
1 Inkwell Leviathan

// Control [13]
4 Punishing Fire
2 Contagion Engine
2 Life from the Loam
3 Sylvan Library
2 Serrated Arrows

// Prison [13]
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Choke
3 Trinisphere
3 Tangle Wire

// Mana Rocks [4]
3 Talisman of Impulse
1 Gruul Signet

// Land [20]
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Cavern of Souls


Sideboard:
2 Spellskite (Infect)
1 Ancient Grudge (MUD, Affinity, Imperial Painter to shoot artifact lands, painter or grindstone)
2 Magus of the Moon (Dodges Krosan Grip)
2 Sowing Salt (Extra hate against Dark Depths, Inkmoth Nexus, Cloudpost, Karakas/Mangara -> Dodges Krosan Grip)
2 Aether Flash (Monastery Mentor, Young Pyromancer, Death and Taxes, and random stuff like zombardment, lingering souls, dredge)
4 Leyline of Sanctity (Burn)
2 Krosan Grip (Counterbalance, Omniscience)

[Chatto]

Regarding your SB: why not Shattering Spree over Ancient Grudge and Exterpate/ Surgical Extraction over Sowing Salt?

[bruizar]

Regarding your SB: why not Shattering Spree over Ancient Grudge and Exterpate/ Surgical Extraction over Sowing Salt?

Shattering Spree is difficult with Ancient Tombs and City of Traitors and I like the fact that you can shoot two artifacts down in different turns as opposed to the one time effect of Shattering Spree. Spree might be better, not sure yet.

Sowing Salt is great because I don't play wasteland and even if I did, sowing salt doesn't require me to assemble a 2 card combo.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

What have you been playing with since the new banned list announcement ? Any changes? Discard is coming back and I wanted to play Welder again.

[guybrush3]

I just posted a new thread about a deck very similar to yours, yet it works with x4 main garruk planeswalker. Don't know if close the thread and talk about it here..maybe is better.
However I'll post the list now for the moment.

DECK;

Creatures:
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Platinum Emperion

Spells
3 punishing fire

Enchantments
3 Song of the Dryads
1 sylvan library
Artifacts
1 Batterskull
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Gruul Signet
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Enginnered explosives
3 Talisman of Impulse
4 Tangle Wire

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Forest
1 Great Furnace
4 Taiga
1 Tree of Tales
4 Wooded Foothills
4 grove of the burnwillows

Planeswalkers
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
4 Garruk Wildspeaker

Not sure if swap the empirion with another batter skull

[guybrush3]

I do use 2 loams in my build although I havent touched magic for a while now and should probably update it. The dredge is invaluable for setting up strong welds. For reference my outdated list:

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
2 Life from the Loam
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Punishing Fire
4 Tangle Wire
2 Serrated Arrows
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Contagion Engine
3 Trinisphere
4 Choke
3 Talisman of Impulse
3 Sylvan Library
1 Ensnaring Bridge

It was pretty good at locking people out, very bad at closing games out. Serrated Arrows and Contagion Engine were insanely strong against decks like elves.

How come you can't close with tarmo? I was thinking to adding them but still not sure. I'm going in the Turn2 Garruk +1 untap2lands way atm. He acts both at ramping your over3cmc spells and also as a finisher. Solid and good. I suggest u to use magus of the moon instead of tarmo. Locking them out with mountains is always problematic , even if you transform your own groves. Happy to see you are not running welder. I used to love it but he's just too slow and vulnerable and we don't want to create a x8 combo reanimation deck here. Its more about controlling the board in a stax way and in the meanwhile hit them with small creatures before pumping them when things become stable.
Why arrows? doesn't pun fire gives you what u need? I'm testing song of the dryads, seems quite cool but maybe i'll replace them with 3 tarmos to go into a more agroo direction and since they don't have a synergy with tangles.
I don't play trini cuz slows me down too much even if its a super turn2 drop.

[guybrush3]

i've played with loam quite a bit and its fantastic if you don't have to play around rip or drs, but unfortunately you do and it becomes less effective as an engine. Neutralizing drs is huge since most decks play it. Bolt would suffice here. Recursion based decks are prone to use punishing fire. As mentioned above you can recur p fire under portal to stabilize.

Loam tends to play very well with exploration, and 26+ lands / 24 if you are playing with fetches. Mox diamond is generally an auto include because of synergy and ramp.

In your deck those may not be necessary and a simple loam dredge will probably be sufficient to justify its inclusion.

Gamble is nice but if you are solely planning to reanimate portal you may consider entomb since it is 100% what you want, and its good with loam also. Maybe consider it in addition to gamble? Kinda depends on how all in you want to be, and if other cards are important to keep in your hand.

I would say
t1 welder, t2 entomb, reanimate > t1 welder, t2 gamble, get lucky

inclusion of black leads to discard as protection and other reanimation effects.

i like this black red welder daretti direction with pun fires. Could you make a list?

[bruizar]

How come you can't close with tarmo? I was thinking to adding them but still not sure. I'm going in the Turn2 Garruk +1 untap2lands way atm. He acts both at ramping your over3cmc spells and also as a finisher. Solid and good. I suggest u to use magus of the moon instead of tarmo. Locking them out with mountains is always problematic , even if you transform your own groves. Happy to see you are not running welder. I used to love it but he's just too slow and vulnerable and we don't want to create a x8 combo reanimation deck here. Its more about controlling the board in a stax way and in the meanwhile hit them with small creatures before pumping them when things become stable.
Why arrows? doesn't pun fire gives you what u need? I'm testing song of the dryads, seems quite cool but maybe i'll replace them with 3 tarmos to go into a more agroo direction and since they don't have a synergy with tangles.
I don't play trini cuz slows me down too much even if its a super turn2 drop.

Arrows provides a solid stream of creature hate. It is often a 2 for 1, or a 3 for 1, even if the investment is very high. I compare it to Smokestack, but effective immediately, one-sided and attacks the things that kill you (aggro is hard). Combined with Punishing Fires you have a lot of reach but the real reason for the card is because of Contagion Engine. You can proliferate 2 arrows back and also proliferate the -1/-1 counters. This little combo makes it so that you can shoot -3/-3 counters every turn, even if the creature entered the battlefield after Contagion Engine (creatures without -1/-1 counters to proliferate). At this point, creature decks are dead. As an example I once shot down Emrakul with a tangle wire + contagion engine + arrows (not that this should come up often). By that time your opponent is the clock and you need to force a concession. This is why I'm playing Sphinx of the Steel Wind nowadays. He's a great welder target and he makes creature matchups totally unwinnable due to the combination of first strike and life link (giving you life even if lethal is on the board) and vigilance netting you 12 life a turn.

[bruizar]

This is what I'm working with now:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wooded Foothills / Stomping Ground / Other RG Land
4 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Dust Bowl
—
4 Everflowing Chalice
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
2 Contagion Engine
1 Possessed Portal
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Sundering Titan
2 Life from the Loam
3 Contagion Clasp
2 Serrated Arrows
2 Sylvan Library (I want to change this, maybe for 1 Wurmcoil Engine + Something else)
3 Punishing Fire
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere
3 Choke

[Gheizen64]

Super mega-necro.

With Nahiri getting in the picture plus some new nice tricks for the deck, i've returned to it and brewed a bit.

Walkers
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
3 Daretti, Scrap Savant

Creatures
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan

Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Boros Signet
2 Batterskull
2 Azorius Signet
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Boros Garrison
4 Plateau
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Arid Mesa

Sideboard:
2 Sudden Demise
2 Wear//Tear
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Mindbreak Trap
3 Phyrexian Revoker


I really want to test hangarback walker in this too.

Nahiri and Daretti give you redundant discard, and Nahiri act as removal while Daretti take out monsters from your graveyard. Signets act as fixers and artifacts for Daretti, plus make blood moon not an issue. Wasteland on the other hand is a very real issue sadly.

Myr Battlesphere is 12 damage off Nahiri with haste, and leave 4 1/1 Myrs down after it bounce to your hand. It's the best non-stupidly huge monster i can think of. It's an artifact so it has additional utility with Daretti, it cost 7 so it's castable normally, and leave bodies behind off nahiri's ultimate. Sundering Titan is the other tutorable big dude, essentially a one-sided armageddon. Nahiri is the real deal, she ramp fast on empty boards and remove threats on clumped boards.

White minions may look awkward, but they're not really much so. You almost always get the mana for them. Test it. Caverns can be renamed with karoos, and Traitors don't sac on karoo bounce. Thalia + Chalice + 2 Thorns make combo MU acceptable. Thalia is pretty good with all the equips.

Karoos make nahiri easy to cast, as long as they don't get wasted . In which case, you have signets. If you don't, well, game is hard. If i could, i'd play 5 or 6 Boros Signet, but we can't! Coldsteel heart or a talisman are the closest things, but they are nowhere as good with Nahiri.
You lose against wasteland like many other fun decks sadly.

[Poron]

add 1 Emrakul or Blightsteel Colossus for Nahiri's ultimate.

Else it doesn't really make sense. Dack Fayden is much better for simple looting

[Gheizen64]

add 1 Emrakul or Blightsteel Colossus for Nahiri's ultimate.

Else it doesn't really make sense. Dack Fayden is much better for simple looting

Fayden do nothing but loot, nahiri loot, remove threats (and moats) and ultimate into a one sided geddon in three turns (or simply deal 12, whichever win you the game more). Nahiri is really good, Fayden not so much in this format (unlike vintage)

[GoblinSettler]

Super mega-necro.

With Nahiri getting in the picture plus some new nice tricks for the deck, i've returned to it and brewed a bit.

Walkers
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
3 Daretti, Scrap Savant

Creatures
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan

Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Boros Signet
2 Batterskull
2 Azorius Signet
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Boros Garrison
4 Plateau
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Arid Mesa

Sideboard:
2 Sudden Demise
2 Wear//Tear
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Mindbreak Trap
3 Phyrexian Revoker


I really want to test hangarback walker in this too.

Nahiri and Daretti give you redundant discard, and Nahiri act as removal while Daretti take out monsters from your graveyard. Signets act as fixers and artifacts for Daretti, plus make blood moon not an issue. Wasteland on the other hand is a very real issue sadly.

Myr Battlesphere is 12 damage off Nahiri with haste, and leave 4 1/1 Myrs down after it bounce to your hand. It's the best non-stupidly huge monster i can think of. It's an artifact so it has additional utility with Daretti, it cost 7 so it's castable normally, and leave bodies behind off nahiri's ultimate. Sundering Titan is the other tutorable big dude, essentially a one-sided armageddon. Nahiri is the real deal, she ramp fast on empty boards and remove threats on clumped boards.

White minions may look awkward, but they're not really much so. You almost always get the mana for them. Test it. Caverns can be renamed with karoos, and Traitors don't sac on karoo bounce. Thalia + Chalice + 2 Thorns make combo MU acceptable. Thalia is pretty good with all the equips.

Karoos make nahiri easy to cast, as long as they don't get wasted . In which case, you have signets. If you don't, well, game is hard. If i could, i'd play 5 or 6 Boros Signet, but we can't! Coldsteel heart or a talisman are the closest things, but they are nowhere as good with Nahiri.
You lose against wasteland like many other fun decks sadly.

I have been trying out various cards in a Daretti Stax shell lately. Including splashes. In my experience, it has not been necessary to go as deep as running Karoo lands to support the splash. For a heavier splash, along the lines of what you're proposing here, last week I tried:


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mountains
2 splash basics
2 dual lands
4 on-color fetches
2 red fetches
2 mana disurption lands
4 Mox Diamond


This was plenty to support a splash that asked for double-off-color costs. And I did not have to sweat getting hit by Wasteland myself.

[sco0ter]

This is what I'm working with now:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wooded Foothills / Stomping Ground / Other RG Land
4 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Dust Bowl
—
4 Everflowing Chalice
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
2 Contagion Engine
1 Possessed Portal
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Sundering Titan
2 Life from the Loam
3 Contagion Clasp
2 Serrated Arrows
2 Sylvan Library (I want to change this, maybe for 1 Wurmcoil Engine + Something else)
3 Punishing Fire
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere
3 Choke


I've tested this list, but unfortunately I wasn't as impressed as I hoped.

I've played against Sneak and Show and some kind of Storm Reanimator. Both decks won easily against me.
I've also played against Esper Stoneblade, which was more even. I've won one game :-).
Lastly two games against a janky GR Burn deck (with Browbeat!). I lost one and won the other only because I luckily drew the Wurmcoil Engine.

Some conclusions:
* there are way to many -1/-1 effects (7). They are cute, but they just don't do enough.
* I never proliferated. Not even with Tangle Wire. Seems like your deck is built around counters/proliferate, but I am not sure if it's really worth it.
* Loam feels suboptimal. There are neither cycle lands nor Wasteland and returning fetchlands isn't that powerful. Dredge is only good with Daretti, but not really needed I think (because you are in a comfortable position anyway).
* I've always discarded Choke to Daretti, because the time I could play it, I'd rather wanted to deal with the (creature) board instead of their islands.

[mgrinshpon]

Winter Orb has had its oracle text changed so it's back into a continuous artifact. In combination with Aether Grid, this gives you a way to one-sidedly murder your opponent's everything. Here's an example decklist I put together in 30 minutes.


3 Hangarback Walker
4 Lodestone Golem

4 Punishing Fire
4 Ghirapur Aether Grid
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant

4 Chalice of the Void
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere
4 Winter Orb

4 Ancient Tomb
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 City of Traitors
1 Great Furnace
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Mountain
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Duplicant
1 Fiery Confluence
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Ratchet Bomb
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Sudden Demise
3 Tormod's Crypt


Wurmcoil seems problematic when you have Winter Orb, so I opted for a variable cost Hangerback. Punishing Fire and Aether Grid may be overkill, but the interaction between Daretti and Punishing Fire is very good. Upkeep waste your untapped land sounds pretty dirty, too, so I added a Crucible package and cut the Welders. Again, I may be totally wrong.

[arj]

Maybe ports

[non-inflammable]

So I ran a white stax the other night and really surprised people.
Felt really good to always have two mana on turn one.

So here's what I'm gonna try next week:

Walker
3 Daretti, Scrap Savant

Spells
4 Punishing Fire
3 Armageddon

Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
3 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trading Post
1 Sundial of the Infinite
3 Ensnaring Bridge

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
4 Plateau
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 The Tabernacle at the Pendrell Vale
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Karakas
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Flagstones of Trokair


Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Rest in Peace
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Helmo of Obedience



EDIT: went 3-1 and split for first

OmniShow, Grixis Control, Tribal Cleric Infinite life gain? and burn.
Lost to the Grixis Control player: True-Name means a quick loss after opponent thoughtseized the bridge from my hand.

Deck still needs 2 or 3 oblivion rings for hard to handle permanents.

3 Daretti was too many. Almost every game was a grind and tiny incremental advantage was key, even one mana might mean a win or a loss.
The OminShow player had me dead on board but I drew an Ancient Tomb and was able to play Ensnaring Bridge. Won that match 'cause I topdecked a land.
The first turn sphere of resistance slowed him down just enough. However, the one game I got Daretti in play, I won.

Still very impressed that I almost always had 2 mana on turn 1.