Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy) [Archive] - Page 2

Lejay

12-01-2014, 03:24 AM

how is the deck performing again D&T? are the abrupt decay's enough against the equipment?

i see lejay is using massacre and that clearly helps but is it enough?

solifuge for miracles? has it proved useful?

EDIT***

Is spike weaver along with trini / chalice sufficient against elves?

are elves the only thing you are bringing weaver / hydra in against?

Anyone given thoughts to willow satyr against S&T?
All this information has been discussed in the thread.

D&T is a good match-up for sure, I think I have yet to lose to it. It's unfavourable pre board with an excellent match-up post board (and may furthermore improve as you'll read in this post).
Solifuge is for miracles but not only, any Jace deck or other planeswalker with little defense on the board makes it a good choice. I also side it in against combo.
Spike weaver + trini + chalice is clearly enough, but I doubt you will always have them. You also have to find kalonian and/or removal for DRS at some point.
I side in the spike/hydra combo versus anything that plays lots of creatures and tries to win with the combat phase. Also sometimes when a random threat is better than prison pieces, which is a good reason to play decent bodies in the sideboard.
I considered willow satyr, but I would play second karakas or stingerfling spider instead first if I had room for the sneak and show match-up. Remember that is not a common deck online anymore.

Trying around various Daretti decks and shit, i was hit by how good the Punishing fire is in current legacy. Remove all of the annoying creatures in the format, plus double as really efficient reach and PW removal even against miracles. So since i thought this deck was so good at being prison, that i'd try it in the shell, in place of A. Decay which i felt was used 90% of the time to remove walkers and creatures anyway, with a distant third on equips.
So i've looked into what card i could use in a RG base shell, and my first thought was BloodBraid elves. The card however is a big nonmbo with both chalice, trinishpere and GSZ, so i decided to not even bother. However, searching GR cards bore some interesting fruits:

Prison:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Choke

Card Advantage:
4 Punishing Fire
2 Domri Rade
4 Sylvan Library

Creatures:
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Lands:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
2 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Sudden Shock
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Stingerfling Spider
SB: 3 Ravenous Trap
+3 flex

Huntmaster of the fells is INSANE in this deck. It's comparable to Obstinate baloth, in that you can power it out with Ancient tomb, and gain you life. However, two bodies are usually better in case you're swarmed down compared to 1. But the flipping ability is just really good. Considering you play chalices, trinishperes and chokes, your opponents will often have turns where he doesn't do anything (and often you too), meaning it flipped every game i played him. With Library, you can draw 2 spells each turn and easily flip him back, giving you back half of the life you spend on library itself, and a 2/2 token, plus additional damage when he flip back. His relative weakness compared to baloth is that he's more vulnerable to burn (but less to swords), but chalice is here for that, and the additional utility convinced me this card was just much better than Baloth.

Domri is essentially another sinergistic piece with Library and Courser, that double as removal, damage sponge, and make any topdeck letal when you get the emblem. The problem here is that you run only 14 creatures so his +1 is not that good unless you got a Sylvan out.

Burning-Tree Emissary was something that i wanted to try, and for now it tested reall good, being able to put up a body+ Chalice/P.Fire. It's probably not that good, especially since i play 4 Wastes, but nothing strike me as good in its spot as of now. Another card i thought about was Satyr Wayfinder.

Rest of the list is pretty standard, with the sideboard having basically 3 flex slots (2 ruric, 1 Renegades), and the punishing fire engine killing every creature, woman and planeswalker you see.

Since you want your removal to be good against delver punishing fire is not bad and I considred it several times. However it's not as versatile as decay, it weakens the manabase, and if you play it, knight is good for grove, however grove is bad for knight. Being RG also means you'll get more problems facing TNN. Best answer in red is magnetic mountain (and online it's an-zerrin ruins since magnetic mountain doesn't exist).
Huntmaster was underwhelming in my testing as a 1 one-of and I played it quite some time. So I advise you to test more with the baloth comparision in mind. Saying it's particularly good because you make your opponent play nothing is saying it's good when anything decent would win the game. When you are behind it's inferior to baloth,. You say two bodies are better when you are swarmed but what are you going to block efficiently with 2/2s ? Pyromancer's tokens and what else ? Also worth considering that young pyromancer decks play burn spells.

Domri Rade was the planeswalker I liked the most in my options. However I still didn't play it when in red because of being decayable and the lack of creature density for both abilities.

I can understand most of your choices (even if I disapprove playing them all in all) but Burning-tree emissary is something I don't get at all.

Went 2-2 twice in a row (have gone 4-0 in every other daily for a few days) and there were losses against UR and elves in particular that once again made me desire 2x pyroclasms pretty strongly. I still didn't find any possible cut for taiga+2x pyroclams, but after thinking for a very long time I decided to try this (went 4-0) :

1 [CS] Swamp
1 [KTK] Wooded Foothills
2 [R] Bayou
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
2 [R] Savannah
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [CS] Forest
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
1 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [C14] Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 [BNG] Courser of Kruphix
3 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
2 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [8E] Choke
4 [5E] Sylvan Library
4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
1 [RAV] Rolling Spoil
1 [C13] Toxic Deluge
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 [EX] Spike Weaver
SB: 1 [M14] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [C14] Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [M14] Kalonian Hydra
SB: 1 [GP] Giant Solifuge
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 [M11] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [NE] Massacre
SB: 1 [R] Taiga
SB: 1 [MM] Tower of the Magistrate

So what's the trick ? All maindeckable cards from the sideboard were put main, so there are 62 cards main deck. I don't know if I am too tired and miss too many things, but I'd rather post before going to bed and get people debate about it.
First, as I said in this thread at some point, going over 60 cards in a GSZ deck is at least defensible.
Second when I was hesitating on 3rd baloth as 61st card I dismissed it mainly because I felt 61st should have been a land if it had to be. Playing 4th wasteland and 4th trinisphere means I am upping the land density but not as much as if I had simply added a land.
Third I think 4 sylvan libraries gives the deck enough velocity for this to be acceptable or even maybe better. It's possible 3.87 libraries per 60 cards is better than 4 libraries per 60 cards.
Fourth, and that may be the most important, even if we consider playing 62 cards is an objective small mistake, I still think playing without pyroclasms (or other slots in these 77) would be a (even if slightly) bigger mistake.
Fifth the cards in this deck are so bad that by running 62 you have less chances of drawing them, and you also can look even more like a total noob.
Sixth, fifth was a joke of course.

I only have one daily of testing so we'll see. I also don't like replacing a rolling spoil with toxic deluge very much so I may go back on this.
I'd like to point out that I won the very very close game 3 of fourth round because I had that 3rd baloth in the deck. Granted I was in trouble because of a missclick on library that made me pay 4 life for a useless chalice, but still.

Barook

12-01-2014, 07:48 AM

62 cards? :confused: A toolbox mustn't be an excuse to slack off when it comes to tight deckbuilding.

Going to 62 cards to waste a sideboard slot for a Taiga is absolute insanity. Just because it works due to the raw power of the deck doesn't mean it's healthy in the long run. If would rather run in the Taiga in the MD and replace a basic Forest (or maybe even the Swamp?). As long as you have at least 2 basic forests to fetch, you should be fine.

Michael Keller

12-01-2014, 09:21 AM

Playing for a Black Lotus and Ancestral Recall this weekend. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

P-E

12-01-2014, 10:29 AM

great !! sadly it won't be with dredge but plug is strong and funny :laugh:

MD.Ghost

12-01-2014, 10:31 AM

Last weekend i was able to take a closer look at this stompy brew. As i mentioned before, a small white splash seems to spicy to dismiss this option. Finally i take some personal adjustments and different directions, but overall it is the beasty stompy shell lejay created here.

4 ancient tomb
4 verdant catacombs
3 windswept heath
3 wasteland
3 forest
2 bayou
1 horizon canopy
1 scrubland
1 karakas
1 dryad arbor
1 savannah

2 courser of kurphix
2 obstinate baloth
2 knight of the reliquary
1 siege rhino
1 scavenging ooze
1 deathrite shaman
1 qasali pridemage
1 titania, protector of argoth

4 chalice of the void
4 trinisphere
4 abrupt decay
4 green sun's zenith
3 choke
3 sylvan library
2 toxic deluge
1 garruk relentless

side:

2 krosan grip
2 massacre
2 faerie macabre
1 gaddock teeg
1 stingerfling spider
1 kalonian hydra
1 reclamation sage
1 spike weaver
1 maze of ith
1 bojuka bog
1 memoricide
1 free -

Some notes after a weekend full of online games:

Karakas maindeck - i hate Sneak&Show as a deck concept, so if i can, i will fight it in every deck. With Titania, Knights and the Teeg as a sideboard choice, Karakas seems an auto include.

Manabase isn't set in stone yet, 3 colors aren't easy to balance, but without mox (or other stuff) i wanted the playset Ancient Tomb for a faster game plan. Horizon Canopy is a half savannah with synergy to titania, knight, library, courser etc.

As you can see i also cutted one Choke, because i found chalice+trinisphere are the first disruption pieces and choke is more a backup or the last coffin nail against blue. Against non blue Choke is a dead card G1, so one less seemed ok for me.

Another -1 was Sylvan Library, i don't want to resolve more than one and i also want to cast it after the other disruption elements (which also makes it easier against counters). I also quickly realized that Courser is a beast and also "draw" cards which results in a more consistent and smooth game development. I knew that Library and Zenith are the main tools for consistent, so without a 4th Library i included more creatures (ooze, 2nd knight and rhino) and also 1 Garruk Relentless as a flexible choice (kill creatures, tutor creatures, token spam) - his weak body really profits from chalice&sphere.

I knew that some of you like Rolling Spoil, but i think double Toxic Deluge is the real deal. It's one mana cheaper (so possible T2), kills way more stuff (Delver, Swiftspear, Stoneforge, Deathrite, Containment Priest, Gofy, right up to Emrakul) - for most land destruction this decks can bring Wastelands, along with Titania and Knights if needed.

Sideboard includes some new stuff as Bojuka Bog (with 2 Knights Maindeck a sometimes needed "get the whole graveyard" option); Maze of Ith (hey Knights^^) as my punishment against UR Delver, because they forgot the old tempo stuff like Stifle+Waste; finally 1 Memoricide vs Miracle and mainly Combo after you applied some lock pieces.

This tends to 1 free slot, which can be another Zenith-Target or totally different (and weird) stuff like: Timely Reinforcements, Ghostly Prision, Thunderstaff, Night of Souls' Betrayal, Magus of the Tabernacle etc. etc.

---------
Snap EDIT with Quote from Sneak&Show Thread:

My friend JPA:

Until the format is 70 % Containment Priest decks I see no reason to play Omnitell over Sneak & Show.

vs

So is better playing omnitell when priest become more present in the meta...

Yes, please - Omnitell is such an easy matchup with this stompy shell - i would like to face this matchup more often :wink:

Lejay

12-01-2014, 11:34 AM

Going to 62 cards to waste a sideboard slot for a Taiga is absolute insanity. Just because it works due to the raw power of the deck doesn't mean it's healthy in the long run. If would rather run in the Taiga in the MD and replace a basic Forest (or maybe even the Swamp?). As long as you have at least 2 basic forests to fetch, you should be fine.
I would do the same thing about taiga main if I would insert a second karakas in the sideboard. But I still want three lands in the sideboard and it's nice that one of them produces green mana (against control you side out MOXx2 and dryad generally). I could change my opinion in the future about keeping 3 lands in sideboard as the land density main deck rose slightly, but that is not very likely.
I wouldn't judge on that sole 4-0 myself, it was just random information. I am exposing the idea pretty early (not worried of looking like a noob) in case I could get some arguments I didn't think of in one way or the other.
I've built a deck with more than 60 cards in the past, a deck chaining gifts with spellweaver volute. There has also been a consensus at a certain period on mystical teachings decks being optimal with 63 to 66 cards. A green sun's zenith deck isn't on the same degree of justifying playing more than 60, but dryad arbor, tool box and playing 4 sylvan is already something.

At worst if it ends up being a bad idea overall, I am pretty sure this will still be the best way to test all the options to figure out the best cuts. So I definitely will continue playing the 62 cards list for some time.

12-01-2014, 11:41 AM

Another mention of this deck on SCG (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29833_Innovation-Spotlight-III-Amazing-Legacy-Decks.html), even if it is the "out of date" GB version.

Ricflairwoo

12-01-2014, 01:32 PM

I only have one daily of testing so we'll see. I also don't like replacing a rolling spoil with toxic deluge very much so I may go back on this. I'd like to point out that I won the very very close game 3 of fourth round because I had that 3rd baloth in the deck. Granted I was in trouble because of a missclick on library that made me pay 4 life for a useless chalice, but still.

I watched that match. I was wondering what card you paid the 4 life for. :smile:

phazonmutant

12-01-2014, 01:33 PM

I played Lejay's list here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28759-Sylvan-Plug-(or-whatever-splashed-Green-stompy)&p=852248&viewfull=1#post852248) at a small local minus a Kalonian Hydra for a Containment Priest because the store didn't have any Hydras. I went 4-0 (with a bye), losing only one game to me being completely stupid (I was having way too much fun :tongue:) and another to a Pyromancer + double Force nut draw.

Awesome deck! I was pretty dubious of the crazy numbers and terrible-looking bullets, but the whole thing fits together beautifully. I didn't board in Weaver, but I realize now it's pretty stupid to have it without Hydra. Still, I'm not quite sure I see the point... My other takeaways were that I'd like to move the Scavenging Ooze main as a cheaper threat that gains life, and I'd like another Rolling Spoil in the board. It was a card I was hoping to draw quite often. I'm also not too sure about Titania. It seems like win-more - expensive, and it's not too tough to just block down or Bolt if things are going poorly.

Is there a reason Containment Priest isn't in the sideboard? If Show and Tell is tough, then this is great hate against it, and it also has application to Reanimator and Dredge (which don't seem that tough, but mise). Sure, it can't be Zenithed out and messes with Zenith and Arbor, but so what?

I played against Grixis Control (Eli Kassis's list), Dredge (narrowly winning game 1 off the back of Courser!), and Raka Stoneblade (I guess like BBD's list?). I've been completely torn what to play at SCG Portland and I'm seriously considering this as an out to the Cruise mirrors.

I would do the same thing about taiga main if I would insert a second karakas in the sideboard. But I still want three lands in the sideboard and it's nice that one of them produces green mana (against control you side out MOXx2 and dryad generally). I could change my opinion in the future about keeping 3 lands in sideboard as the land density main deck rose slightly, but that is not very likely.
I wouldn't judge on that sole 4-0 myself, it was just random information. I am exposing the idea pretty early (not worried of looking like a noob) in case I could get some arguments I didn't think of in one way or the other.
I've built a deck with more than 60 cards in the past, a deck chaining gifts with spellweaver volute. There has also been a consensus at a certain period on mystical teachings decks being optimal with 63 to 66 cards. A green sun's zenith deck isn't on the same degree of justifying playing more than 60, but dryad arbor, tool box and playing 4 sylvan is already something.

At worst if it ends up being a bad idea overall, I am pretty sure this will still be the best way to test all the options to figure out the best cuts. So I definitely will continue playing the 62 cards list for some time.

Interesting idea. I'm skeptical that it's strictly correct, but I've done similar things in the past. It's a good way to test, if nothing else.

apple713

12-01-2014, 01:54 PM

I would do the same thing about taiga main if I would insert a second karakas in the sideboard. But I still want three lands in the sideboard and it's nice that one of them produces green mana (against control you side out MOXx2 and dryad generally). I could change my opinion in the future about keeping 3 lands in sideboard as the land density main deck rose slightly, but that is not very likely.
I wouldn't judge on that sole 4-0 myself, it was just random information. I am exposing the idea pretty early (not worried of looking like a noob) in case I could get some arguments I didn't think of in one way or the other.
I've built a deck with more than 60 cards in the past, a deck chaining gifts with spellweaver volute. There has also been a consensus at a certain period on mystical teachings decks being optimal with 63 to 66 cards. A green sun's zenith deck isn't on the same degree of justifying playing more than 60, but dryad arbor, tool box and playing 4 sylvan is already something.

At worst if it ends up being a bad idea overall, I am pretty sure this will still be the best way to test all the options to figure out the best cuts. So I definitely will continue playing the 62 cards list for some time.

There really is no reason to have more than 60. Anything over 60 is why you have a sideboard... for cards not important enough to justify a main deck slot. The main deck should be good vs the majority of the decks in your given meta. There will always be a card that is weaker than others against the majority of decks and making that determination is difficult sometimes but ultimately should be done. At what point do you draw the line for including toolbox cards main board?

also, what is really preventing you from running the taiga main? are you concerned about Price of progress, or Blood moon, or something else? Moon decks are on the decline currently and S&T is one of the few decks that brings it in from the board which just makes a bad match only slightly worse. As for price of progress, the basic land count has dwindled to 3 from the original 5. Have you seen such a significant effect that you cannot include the taiga main?

Michael Keller

12-01-2014, 03:05 PM

Barook

12-01-2014, 03:34 PM

Memories of the Time

12-01-2014, 05:58 PM

Really like MD.Ghost's list, quite similar to mine. Really can't play Baloth btw, but agree with Karakas, Canopy and MD deluge

Barook

12-01-2014, 06:13 PM

First rough draw of the Knight build:

2 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Forest
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Karakas
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Mox Diamond

1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Courser of Kruphix
3 Obstinate Baloth
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Rolling Spoil
4 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Life from the Loam

3 Choke
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Spike Weaver
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Kalonian Hydra
1 Thrun
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Massacre
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Toxic Deluge

Michael Keller

12-01-2014, 08:25 PM

So, I was thinking about this the other day. In what capacity is Toxic Deluge better than Nausea in a deck that runs Ancient Tomb and fetches? I mean, what creatures does this deck really care about that have toughness greater than one? Young Pyromancer, Elemental tokens, most of Death and Taxes, Elves and True-Name Nemesis all eat it to Nausea. So do Empty tokens. It doesn't require a heavy life investment and costs one less. The deck does have ways of gaining life, but that investment should be put towards drawing cards with Library whenever possible and making Lightning Bolt and other burn spells less of a threat.

It just seems like the only creatures you really care about are the ones that can flood the board, and they generally have toughness of one. In that instance, Nausea seems superior. It can also kill an unflipped Delver faster without needing to hinge on Ancient Tomb.

Lejay

12-01-2014, 08:55 PM

There really is no reason to have more than 60. Anything over 60 is why you have a sideboard... for cards not important enough to justify a main deck slot. The main deck should be good vs the majority of the decks in your given meta. There will always be a card that is weaker than others against the majority of decks and making that determination is difficult sometimes but ultimately should be done. At what point do you draw the line for including toolbox cards main board?

also, what is really preventing you from running the taiga main? are you concerned about Price of progress, or Blood moon, or something else? Moon decks are on the decline currently and S&T is one of the few decks that brings it in from the board which just makes a bad match only slightly worse. As for price of progress, the basic land count has dwindled to 3 from the original 5. Have you seen such a significant effect that you cannot include the taiga main?
4th wasteland and 4th trinisphere aren't really clear sideboard cards, which is why I want to try them in the main deck and play everything I need to have in the sideboard.
Nobody talks about running the sb toolbox cards in the main. If you said that because I mentionned a GSZ deck could possibly run more than 60 cards, then think rather about things like dryad arbor or how qasali is weak in some number of match-ups.

About Taïga main :

I would do the same thing about taiga main if I would insert a second karakas in the sideboard. But I still want three lands in the sideboard and it's nice that one of them produces green mana (against control you side out MOXx2 and dryad generally). I could change my opinion in the future about keeping 3 lands in sideboard as the land density main deck rose slightly, but that is not very likely.
This is like the third time you ask questions that have already been answered. I am patient but I have to underline that and ask you to read more carefully less threads rather than participating in so many different threads and reading them too quickly.
That said I realized how mox diamonds couldn't be considered a real mana source that could be replaced by lands (even utility lands) against control decks. So I will try other configurations, possibly 61 cards with 3 trini 4 wasteland and 2 lands sideboard. That way the land to spells ratio will still be good enough when you side out ancient tombs despite having just 2 lands sb.
About basic lands I never went below 4 basics and feel it's the minimum to protect from PoP (would probably be one more without mox diamonds). I didn't play against burn deck in a while though so I can't confirm old data with recent data.

Agreed. You definitely don't want to go anything beyond sixty cards. Opening with a Chalice or Trinisphere is paramount to the strategy of this deck, and that only decreases your chances of doing so. Especially in a deck with no real active draw beyond Sylvan Library.
I had this reasoning also, but you should have noticed that the previous decklist had only 3 trinispheres with the 4th in the sideboard. So adding a trinisphere and a land actually increased the likelyhood of opening on castable prison elements, at least preboard. That gave me incentives to try playing 62 cards for pyroclasms.

What exactly do you want to hit with Pyroclasm that you can't hit with Golgari Charm, Lejay? Flipped Delvers?
Edit: I also wonder how Tabernacle and Maze of Ith could work in the sideboard in a more Knight-heavy version.
Mainly yes. UR and elves are the two decks I have the most in mind and there are other X/2s in them, and also sfm and a bunch of other less likely creatures (mirran crusader, meddling, tribal decks...). In short since I have enough slots in my opinion to handle TNN, I prefer two damage to -1/-1 effects.
Not sure about lands, even though being based on mazes will be obvious with 4 mox diamonds, and at least one maze is almost mandatory if you run several knights.

So, I was thinking about this the other day. In what capacity is Toxic Deluge better than Nausea in a deck that runs Ancient Tomb and fetches? I mean, what creatures does this deck really care about that have toughness greater than one? Young Pyromancer, Elemental tokens, most of Death and Taxes, Elves and True-Name Nemesis all eat it to Nausea. So do Empty tokens. It doesn't require a heavy life investment and costs one less. The deck does have ways of gaining life, but that investment should be put towards drawing cards with Library whenever possible and making Lightning Bolt and other burn spells less of a threat.

It just seems like the only creatures you really care about are the ones that can flood the board, and they generally have toughness of one. In that instance, Nausea seems superior. It can also kill an unflipped Delver faster without needing to hinge on Ancient Tomb.
Deluge is a deluge in my deck because I like having a slot that can deal with some otherwise difficult things to handle like serra avenger, wilt-leaf liege, progenitus, or a board of merfolk lords. It also kills more things against UR and elves.
For a -1/-1 effect nausea's casting cost is interesting but I probably would still try golgari charm first.

Michael Keller

12-01-2014, 09:02 PM

It just seems like the deck overpowers opponents with its threat base. The only cards that really bog it down are tokens and Nemesis. I play Natural Order so it doesn't matter more to me because I choose to play more combo-control.

Golgari Charm can just be awkward in the deck with Ancient Tomb. The way the deck is constructed, getting that end-of-turn Arbor and going for the early Order as early as turn two is key, so I guess it matters how you want to construct your deck.

apple713

12-01-2014, 09:03 PM

Michael Keller

12-01-2014, 09:06 PM

containment priest, stoneforge, batterskull, delver, swiftspear, entreat tokens, DRS, Dredge Zombie tokens, and so on. For 3 mana you can wrath the field OR for one life you have a nausea. the versatility is well worth the a mana and like. it hits things like emrakul and tarmogoyf in rare situations which do help.

I get that, but again: in a more combo-oriented variant with Natural Order, I see the clearing of an early board state more important because games tend to last shorter once Progenitus hits play. They counter your Chalice, stop your Libraries and then you smash them with the hydra. The first three turns will generally be dictated by x/1 creatures, which is really all you care about. If an opponent end-steps Entreat, you lose anyhow. Same with Zombies into Dread Return. I just think the value overall is worth it, where Deluge is more of a mana-intensive spell that really only shines against dudes with toughness two or more during the later turns where life is more of a necessity either through attrition or used towards drawing cards. I don't think this deck cares about those creatures because the curve of the format is dropping significantly - even in fair decks. Everyone wants to jam that x/1, turn one. Swiftspear being the exception, that card isn't going anywhere against this deck that will recoup lost life and put up a 4/4 in a hurry.

Batterskull is also trash against this deck, really. I play Acidic Slime side by side with Sage, which has been huge. Also is nice value with Spoil having the land destruction thing going on (very key against 12-Post). Not tarnishing the good name of Deluge, which is a crazy-good card, it's just in this deck I like the equalizer aspect of Nausea as opposed to the investment of both mana and life in Deluge. The deck houses mid game, but the early game can be a problem on the draw.

TraxDaMax

12-01-2014, 10:01 PM

What exactly do you want to hit with Pyroclasm that you can't hit with Golgari Charm, Lejay? Flipped Delvers?

Edit: I also wonder how Tabernacle and Maze of Ith could work in the sideboard in a more Knight-heavy version.

I've been running Tabernacle. It gives my opponents the shivers :D

Also, what do you guys think of Engineered Plague side? Could it be better then Pyroclasms? I mean with a Bayou and sol-land we basicly get it out on turn 2 and on human it kills delver and YP, elves weep their way home and if needed that annoying merfolk rogue could be named. Don't know DnT well enough to know if it has any use there though.
Sorry if this has been asked already, I think I read everything here though and can't recall anything being said about it.

apple713

12-01-2014, 10:11 PM

4th wasteland and 4th trinisphere aren't really clear sideboard cards, which is why I want to try them in the main deck and play everything I need to have in the sideboard.
Nobody talks about running the sb toolbox cards in the main. If you said that because I mentionned a GSZ deck could possibly run more than 60 cards, then think rather about things like dryad arbor or how qasali is weak in some number of match-ups.

About Taïga main :

This is like the third time you ask questions that have already been answered. I am patient but I have to underline that and ask you to read more carefully less threads rather than participating in so many different threads and reading them too quickly.
That said I realized how mox diamonds couldn't be considered a real mana source that could be replaced by lands (even utility lands) against control decks. So I will try other configurations, possibly 61 cards with 3 trini 4 wasteland and 2 lands sideboard. That way the land to spells ratio will still be good enough when you side out ancient tombs despite having just 2 lands sb.
About basic lands I never went below 4 basics and feel it's the minimum to protect from PoP (would probably be one more without mox diamonds). I didn't play against burn deck in a while though so I can't confirm old data with recent data.

First, sorry for asking repeated questions. I do appreciate the time you take to respond to me and everyone else. In my defense i did look through the thread before asking, and I do edit my posts if i find something after i make a post.

I feel like side boarding lands is not the best use of sideboard slots, unless they are utility lands like Karakas. Even if you move mox diamond to the sideboard you'll still have enough lands main deck. Even though you might be inclined to sideboard out ancient tombs against some decks, i wouldn't alter the number of lands in the sideboard for this purpose.

I get that, but again: in a more combo-oriented variant with Natural Order, I see the clearing of an early board state more important because games tend to last shorter once Progenitus hits play. They counter your Chalice, stop your Libraries and then you smash them with the hydra. The first three turns will generally be dictated by x/1 creatures, which is really all you care about. If an opponent end-steps Entreat, you lose anyhow. Same with Zombies into Dread Return. I just think the value overall is worth it, where Deluge is more of a mana-intensive spell that really only shines against dudes with toughness two or more during the later turns where life is more of a necessity either through attrition or used towards drawing cards. I don't think this deck cares about those creatures because the curve of the format is dropping significantly - even in fair decks. Everyone wants to jam that x/1, turn one. Swiftspear being the exception, that card isn't going anywhere against this deck that will recoup lost life and put up a 4/4 in a hurry.

Batterskull is also trash against this deck, really. I play Acidic Slime side by side with Sage, which has been huge. Also is nice value with Spoil having the land destruction thing going on (very key against 12-Post). Not tarnishing the good name of Deluge, which is a crazy-good card, it's just in this deck I like the equalizer aspect of Nausea as opposed to the investment of both mana and life in Deluge. The deck houses mid game, but the early game can be a problem on the draw.

Playing a combo version i can't imagine why the little bit of life bothers you. You're version is very different than mine but deluge should still serve the same purpose. i guess it's just a meta call.

Memories of the Time

12-02-2014, 04:51 AM

Friend of mine suggests Word of Worship against burn/UR. If we could do it in time it's gg i think, with library... you know. Otherwise Timely Reinforcements?

ESG

12-02-2014, 03:23 PM

Deluge is a deluge in my deck because I like having a slot that can deal with some otherwise difficult things to handle like serra avenger, wilt-leaf liege, progenitus, or a board of merfolk lords. It also kills more things against UR and elves.
For a -1/-1 effect nausea's casting cost is interesting but I probably would still try golgari charm first.

To add to the list: Toxic Deluge can kill a True-Name Nemesis equipped with a Sword; Nausea can't.

Michael Keller

12-02-2014, 04:05 PM

To add to the list: Toxic Deluge can kill a True-Name Nemesis equipped with a Sword; Nausea can't.

It can but I'm only referring to Nausea's early-game effectiveness. Sage and Slime can kill the Sword - if we're at a point where Nemesis and an equipment have both resolved and paired themselves on the board. A Nemesis also isn't matching forces with a Progenitus. As long as you can clear the board of tokens, Pyromancer, etc., that's all you care about to stall the game long enough to break the game open.

Again, I'm not saying Deluge is a bad card, because it isn't and is really superior in most decks. But in this one after relentless testing, it just seems like Nausea is really the stronger card on the draw where you're not eating it to a Daze off Tomb and Bayou or paying more than a life and a third mana to effectively kill critters that gum the board up for one mana and one less life. People give these cards a bad wrap (like Caltrops and Nausea), but in Legacy - right now - these cards are excellent.

Maybe it's just me, but the only creatures I care about killing are the ones that gum the board up on those first three turns to quash any line of play by an opponent to flood the board. Almost every one I can think of has a toughness of one. Deluge is the better overall card, but Nausea's early-game appeal of neutering the board of these creatures and setting up the big turn-four play just seems like value. Again, we're talking about a one, two-slot card at most in boards, so it's not overly critical here.

Rolling Spoil is in the deck and has a built-in Nausea effect. The question becomes just how important the land destruction aspect is built on top of the -1/-1 effect. It's very good against a variety of decks and gives the deck major tempo, but if you're looking to simplify things a card that does half of what Spoil does - arguably the more appealing half - without the heavier color investment, seems good.

(Not that it also matters, but because I play more Deathrite Shaman to power out faster Natural Orders - necessitating a turn-two or three Deluge for more than one seems bad when killing your own creatures and staring the card dead in hand.)

phazonmutant

12-02-2014, 04:45 PM

I lost a game yesterday to BUG Delver who played turn 1 Shaman into turn 2 Delver + Shaman, into Delver + Decay. I curved out nicely too, Library into Chalice into Rolling Spoil, but Chalice got Decayed, Rolling Spoil was countered by him Wasting his own land, and basically the only thing that could stop his horde of X/2s was Toxic Deluge. I know BUG isn't popular, but this deck is very metagamed against non-Deathrite decks currently. Adding effects that kill Deathrite and flipped Delvers is important to regain the initiative against them.

Last night went a mediocre 2-2.
R1 I won against Elves very easily - turn 3 Trinisphere into Rolling Spoil for all of his permanents, then beats and Spike Weaver for the lock.
R2 Lost to Junk Maverick. He got Gaddock Teeg out early and I drew a bunch of lands. Then Wasteland and Thalia kept me off balance enough for Knight to come down, and Swords on Ooze took it over. I didn't draw castable removal at all, so maybe also a bad draw, but this matchup seems abysmal. Rolling Spoil was pretty bad - it cost 5, Knight could counter it, and it would only kill Thalia.
R3 Won against Miracles. Game one he had 2 Forces for Library and Choke, but I had another Library and drew into more Chokes and creatures. Game 2 he got me super low with a Containment Priest, but Library and running Baloths took over.
R4 Lost to BUG Delver. Game 1 he had the quad-X/2 draw with disruption that was just too fast. Game 2 I kept 2 Wastelands and a Bayou with Chalice and Library. He allowed Chalice, Decayed Library, then Wasted my Bayou and I didn't draw colored sources before Goyfs won.

Is Titania actually good for you guys? When would you have won with her that you wouldn't have won without? I found I'm most likely to lose against very fast or Wasteland-heavy draws (if I draw non-basics). That makes me want to lower the curve and play more early threats. Here's something I'm thinking of:
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Obstinate Baloth

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Choke
3 Trinisphere
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Rolling Spoil

4 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Mox Diamond
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Karakas

// Sideboard
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Massacre
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Choke
1 Trinisphere
1 Obstinate Baloth
2 Containment Priest
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 other creature - Ooze, Baloth, Giant Solifuge, Spike Weaver

I like the Wildwood as another colored source that can also block Delver or Thalia. Against control it's a fine threat too. I'm not certain 4 Wastelands are necessary - against blue decks, Choke and Wasteland serve the same purpose, and against non-blue decks we usually want to keep our mana sources in play because we're the control or have a higher curve. I'm not sure if the sideboard Choke and Trinisphere are necessary, those matchups should be pretty good already. I'm not sure what the random fattie slots in the board should be though. Ooze should be good against Maverick and Jund, some tougher matchups, Baloth is also good against Jund and can shore up the Burn and UR Delver matchups (which might just be slightly favorable instead of very). Solifuge and Weaver offer random utility, but I'm not sure they're needed in those matchups. What do you guys think?

Michael Keller

12-02-2014, 04:52 PM

I play two Titania, and it's been sick.

phazonmutant

12-02-2014, 11:02 PM

I play two Titania, and it's been sick.

Ok, why? I realize you're playing Natural Order so you have more and cheaper tutors for her, but I can't imagine Ordering for Titania over Progenitus. I've never drawn it and had it be anything more than another random dork that cost a little more than the others; and the few times I've wanted to Green Sun for it because I'm losing, I couldn't...because I'm losing.

Michael Keller

12-02-2014, 11:09 PM

Ok, why? I realize you're playing Natural Order so you have more and cheaper tutors for her, but I can't imagine Ordering for Titania over Progenitus. I've never drawn it and had it be anything more than another random dork that cost a little more than the others; and the few times I've wanted to Green Sun for it because I'm losing, I couldn't...because I'm losing.

I play Zuran Orb to make lots of green Juggernauts!

Also, it's not all about Ordering for Titania. A natural draw or Zenith works, too. The card is insane in this deck and with Courser the synergy is sick.

Titania wins on her own and can take over a game very quickly.

EDIT: I main one and board another.

Barook

12-03-2014, 05:25 AM

apple713

12-03-2014, 06:00 AM

I noticed that Lejay lost another two matches in yesterday's DE to Delver (UR and UWR).

Unlucky or not, that blue insect seems troublesome despite the inclusion of Abrupt Decay.

Which brings me to the question what the cards/strategies are that the deck is weak against, so we can tackle them.

From my experience so far, Batterskull and Jace spell trouble, even with a few options to deal with them. From what I've heart, Reanimator and Sneak & Show also seem rather troublesome. Anything else to add?

the deck has trouble managing resources so cards like smallpox really give it trouble if they resolve. Taking a land, a card, and a creature is huge. By no means am i suggesting running pox in here but maybe attacking their resources 2 at a time to generate value, like a land and creature. acidic slime comes to mind but doesn't block delver. I would imagine Planes walkers that are able to generate advantage could help but they may also be too slow, or easily killed by flying delver.

has anyone considered changing the colors? white does not seem to add that much (looking at lejay's list). The inclusions are clearly useful but are they so irreplaceable that changing to red instead of white would hurt the deck? Black is slightly more significant but mainly just removal. Red has comparable removal and might be able to attack multiple resources like lands and creatures better. Ledgy wanted to include pyroclasm which is amazing right now in the format.

White
1 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg

Black - 4 single target removal - 4 sweepers - 2 grave hate
4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
1 [RAV] Rolling Spoil
1 [C13] Toxic Deluge
1 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
SB: 2 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 [NE] Massacre

lordofthepit

12-03-2014, 06:29 AM

Darklingske

12-03-2014, 07:39 AM

Unlucky or not, that blue insect seems troublesome despite the inclusion of Abrupt Decay.

Which brings me to the question what the cards/strategies are that the deck is weak against, so we can tackle them.

From my experience so far, Batterskull and Jace spell trouble, even with a few options to deal with them. From what I've heart, Reanimator and Sneak & Show also seem rather troublesome. Anything else to add?

Yes, in my testing with the deck (I play Lejay's last list) BS is indeed a pain in the butt. After side with double Pridemage it gets a little better, but it is still troublesome. Jace hasn't caused me lots of trouble. In general we can play 2 creatures to kill it. Titania is really awesome against him! And after side you get Solifuge to crush him into the earth.
Concerning Delver, that's a different thing though. A fast (flipped) delver is a sword of Damocles that needs to be adressed as soon as possible. I've been browsing Gatherer for answers and these are the ones that seem playable:

- Arbor Colossus (2GGG 6/6)*
- Bow of Nylea (artifact 1GG)
- Cloudthresher (2GGGG 7/7)*
- Corrosive Gale (sorcery XG[Phyrexian Mana])
- Daybreak Ranger (2G 2/2)*
- Firespout (sorcery 2R/G)
- Ifh-Biff Efreet (2GG 3/3)*
- Needlestorm (sorcery 2G)
- Raking Canopy (enchantment 1GG)
- Silklash Spider (3GG 2/7)*
- Squall (sorcery 2G)
- Squall Line (instant XGG)
- Trophy Hunter (2G 2/3)*
- Tropical storm (sorcery XG)
- Whirlwind (sorcery 2GG)
- Wind Shear (instant 2G)
- Windstorm (instant XG)

Memories of the Time

12-03-2014, 09:34 AM

Barook

12-03-2014, 09:48 AM

I think Skylusher and Penumbra Spider could be good cards too. BTW i think that the problem isn't solvable with just 1x.
The point about other colors seems interesting to me: i think that what we need is an optimized and strong solution to delver , burn and combo like Reanimator and (much more) S&T
Thing is, a red splash would solve the weenie problem with a Punishing Fire engine and sideboard Clasms/Firesprout, while white gives answers to high CC cards (even though Teeg clashes with the rest of the deck), an awesome beater in Knight and Karakas to bounce legendary fatties.

Without black, you lose your answers to TNN - unless you want to go so balls-deep into white that you can run Council's Judgment (or Holy Light, for the matter). While a G/W/r list might be possible, the resulting manabase is highly likely to be an irredeemable clusterfuck.

Michael Keller

12-03-2014, 10:58 AM

Thing is, a red splash would solve the weenie problem with a Punishing Fire engine and sideboard Clasms/Firesprout, while white gives answers to high CC cards (even though Teeg clashes with the rest of the deck), an awesome beater in Knight and Karakas to bounce legendary fatties.

Without black, you lose your answers to TNN - unless you want to go so balls-deep into white that you can run Council's Judgment (or Holy Light, for the matter). While a G/W/r list might be possible, the resulting manabase is highly likely to be an irredeemable clusterfuck.

If people are recreating the framework of the deck to support white with a black splash, isn't the deck just a Dark Maverick hybrid with Chalice and Trinisphere? I think the G/B variation is solid enough without fucking up the way the land configuration is set. Chalice and Trinisphere are the heart and soul of the deck, and to put them into a configuration supporting three or more colors just seems like an oversimplification of the original concept of locking an opponent out and beating them down with big dudes.

Lejay

12-03-2014, 04:21 PM

Friend of mine suggests Word of Worship against burn/UR. If we could do it in time it's gg i think, with library... you know. Otherwise Timely Reinforcements?
Wow will not help versus UR and their beaters (I also generally keep 0-1 sylvan only) and timely won't be as good as a mass removal too often while being more targeted towards burn and UR.

I play Zuran Orb to make lots of green Juggernauts!

Also, it's not all about Ordering for Titania. A natural draw or Zenith works, too. The card is insane in this deck and with Courser the synergy is sick.

Titania wins on her own and can take over a game very quickly.

EDIT: I main one and board another.
I don't understand zuran orb (hoping it's a sb card) since burn is a very good match-up and it doesn't seem that great versus UR. About Titania yes it's awesome in many situations but less when you can't cast it. Are you dropping kalonian+weaver for it ? I am afraid you may take the mana curve a bit too high. I also think Titania/kalonian does the job natural order does and running 2x Titania in a NO build seems too heavy for it to always function well. You should probably post your decklist and thoughts or give a link.

Concerning Delver, that's a different thing though. A fast (flipped) delver is a sword of Damocles that needs to be adressed as soon as possible. I've been browsing Gatherer for answers and these are the ones that seem playable:

- Arbor Colossus (2GGG 6/6)*
- Bow of Nylea (artifact 1GG)
- Cloudthresher (2GGGG 7/7)*
- Corrosive Gale (sorcery XG[Phyrexian Mana])
- Daybreak Ranger (2G 2/2)*
- Firespout (sorcery 2R/G)
- Ifh-Biff Efreet (2GG 3/3)*
- Needlestorm (sorcery 2G)
- Raking Canopy (enchantment 1GG)
- Silklash Spider (3GG 2/7)*
- Squall (sorcery 2G)
- Squall Line (instant XGG)
- Trophy Hunter (2G 2/3)*
- Tropical storm (sorcery XG)
- Whirlwind (sorcery 2GG)
- Wind Shear (instant 2G)
- Windstorm (instant XG)
I did the same at the beginning. Cards that I found worthy of testing (and dismissed) are :
Arbor colossus : was an early top curve GSZ target that was good versus delver and goyf before we ran decay. Obviously it has been outclassed by running decay and other 5cc spells that made it in the list.
Bow of nylea : A bit slow and targeted but I liked it and considered it for a come back when I had an occasion. It got cut when I had to splash and make many sacrifices to play abrupt decay x4.
Daybreak ranger : even had the taiga for it. Was too slow for delver (would die far too often) and wasn't flipping often enough unless you are already winning. I had the taiga for it. I think when it comes to delver it comes after stingerfling spider, bassara tower archer and penumbra spider.
Firespout : I wouldn't play it without a taiga, and with just one taiga I would still play pyroclasm before it (slightly). Mana cost versus those daze decks is a big thing and while pyroclasm doesn't answer serra avenger, with 4 decay in the deck I'd much rather have pyroclasm for mirran crusader.
Among cards I didn't test I think tropical storm is the best. But I don't feel it can make it.

I think Skylusher and Penumbra Spider could be good cards too. BTW i think that the problem isn't solvable with just 1x.
The point about other colors seems interesting to me: i think that what we need is an optimized and strong solution to delver , burn and combo like Reanimator and (much more) S&T
Yes I agree in that we need the quantity. Traditionnally the best answer to delvers was to overload on removals post board. But that strategy (which already had a cost) isn't that smart anymore now that TNN is a thing. Cards that kill both flipped delvers and TNN are at 3cc minimum ("except" massacre in some circumstances), and 3cc is already late facing an agressive deck and is hard to play versus opposing daze and fows fueled by treasure cruises.
I think stingerfling spider is the best GSZ answer to delver that is still versatile. Targeting mainly delver Bassara tower archer and penumbra are the best GSZ targets. Obviously skylasher is the best answer in hand but is very narrow. One versatile card that I was close to testing a couple of times is leafcrown dryad. But I really don't see how I could insert those and think the power level of cards that make in the deck went up too high to consider it. If someone feels like testing it though he has my blessing.

I noticed that Lejay lost another two matches in yesterday's DE to Delver (UR and UWR).

Unlucky or not, that blue insect seems troublesome despite the inclusion of Abrupt Decay.

Which brings me to the question what the cards/strategies are that the deck is weak against, so we can tackle them.

From my experience so far, Batterskull and Jace spell trouble, even with a few options to deal with them. From what I've heart, Reanimator and Sneak & Show also seem rather troublesome. Anything else to add?
Maybe cutting both stingerfling and Bassara had too much of an impact versus delver, dailies didn't go that well with the 62 cards build after my 4-0. But that was mainly due to just never seeing my removal spells (except in one match where I saw them all, that was awesome) so I am still liking the pyroclasms idea. That was at least good for testing since I finally found a configuration with pyroclasms and 60 cards :

1 [R] Savannah
1 [CS] Swamp
1 [R] Taiga
1 [KTK] Wooded Foothills
2 [R] Bayou
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [CS] Forest
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
1 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [C14] Reclamation Sage
1 [C14] Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 [BNG] Courser of Kruphix
3 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
2 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [8E] Choke
4 [5E] Sylvan Library
4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
2 [RAV] Rolling Spoil
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 [MM] Tower of the Magistrate
SB: 1 [EX] Spike Weaver
SB: 1 [M14] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [NE] Massacre
SB: 1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [M14] Kalonian Hydra
SB: 1 [GP] Giant Solifuge
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 [M11] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [C13] Toxic Deluge

Taiga can found its spot in the second savannah slot if you remove qasali for reclamation sage. That has already cost me a game though against tin fins G1 for a lack of clock, but I still think it's the best thing we can do for the manab base if running pyroclasms sb.
4th wasteland sb (or md depending on what list you compare to) completely disappeared. I just accept having one less land post sb versus UR for a great removal spell (pyroclasm) and like I said last page I think, we don't need that many lands when we side out mox diamonds because there aren't really mana sources.
4th trinisphere completely got cut , but in fact it's not really that. Consider faerie macabre slot is 4th trinisphere. I am testing an additionnal grave hate slot because the deck has so few ways to defend himself before lock pieces come down. I don't think losing a trinisphere versus control decks is that much of a liability. We do lose a slot versus omnitell though. But having a faerie macabre (could be trap#3) will help more I feel versus storm, reanimator, tin fins and dredge. Since I found trinisphere to be a bit slow versus UR and since I don't want four of them versus sfm decks (0 versus UWR and death and taxes) cutting 4th seems more than testable. I even had 2 post board versus merfolk recently (with 2 sylvans only).
Maelstrom pulse replaced reclamation sage sb. Not sure how good or bad it is but there are some advantages. First having a pulse is better versus miracles and since I lost a slot with 4th trini it compensates a bit. But main thing is I wanted to have as many removals as possible versus delver decks since I had problems never drawing any in some events. It answers batterskull about as well as sage also when you draw it.

First daily with it I was out due to a long disconnection problem. The other one I played I went 3-1 losing last round to Jeskai Ascendency (piloted by Brad Nelson so maybe the video of the match will be published). I am not familiar with modern so I may have made at least one mistake in G3 and probably didn't have the perfect sideboard strategy.

Also, what do you guys think of Engineered Plague side? Could it be better then Pyroclasms?
I like the plague idea, it has some interesting things going for it. Big problem is not killing flipped delvers but it's better in numbers and it makes our rolling spoils more efficient. One problem with plague versus elves is traditionanlly abrupt decay and sage but since sage doesn't come back and since that would overload on decay targets it seems ok. There could be a split with Night of souls' betrayal but I don't like it that much with dryads so I'll start without it. I will probably test a "Sylvan Plague" configuration soon with 4 engineered plague sb for testing purposes in the mass removal slots of the list above.

Barook

12-03-2014, 05:11 PM

Is "Sylvan Plug" the final name? Otherwise, I'd like to throw in "Woodstaxx" as suggestion. :tongue:

I like the 4 Plague idea. Considering it sticks around to keep creatures off the board, it's kinda like a prison element.

What I like about the idea are the usages against UR Delver - E-Plague on Elemental can kill tons of tokens if they're already swarming the field. Otherwise, naming Humans is nuts against them - kills unflipped Delvers and Pyromancers, and 2 copies let never ever another one of their creature cards enter the battlefied again.

On a different note:
Probably 99.99% unplayable, but the interaction between Tainted Aether and Titania is rather hilarious - you turn all your lands into 5/3s.

Michael Keller

12-03-2014, 10:59 PM

I don't understand zuran orb (hoping it's a sb card) since burn is a very good match-up and it doesn't seem that great versus UR. About Titania yes it's awesome in many situations but less when you can't cast it. Are you dropping kalonian+weaver for it ? I am afraid you may take the mana curve a bit too high. I also think Titania/kalonian does the job natural order does and running 2x Titania in a NO build seems too heavy for it to always function well. You should probably post your decklist and thoughts or give a link.

I'm playing for a Black Lotus this Saturday, and I know some people attending who frequent these forums. No advantage, what so ever to them.

At any rate, a single Zuran Orb is actually very good against U/R and enables an all-out assault with Titania on the board. You don't need to sacrifice lands until you absolutely have to, and this deck controls the early game enough where it can be a huge enabler in the mid to late game off the top with Titania on the table. With the saturated amount of life-gaining cards weaved into the fabric of the deck, I fail to see how Zuran Orb doesn't seem great as both a free survival kit and Titania enabler both main and out of the board.

You're missing the whole point with "taking the curve too high"; this is a Chalice/3Ball deck. Your goal is to cripple the early game with said cards and crush the mid game with either big creatures or, if you run N.O., a Progenitus or what-have-you. I run Tomb and Spirit Guide with a pair of Deathrite Shaman, so getting to five mana is absolutely never an issue. The issue becomes endgame and inevitability and Titania with Natural Order is about as good as you're going to get here. Kalonian Hydra is really not great when facing down Swords, so the comparison between that and Progenitus is null. Titania in conjunction with Zuran Orb laughs off Swords and Bolt.

This deck should never have a problem casting cards that cost four mana or greater, at least not my version.

On the turn you generate a mass of green Juggernauts, you're also putting yourself way out of harm's way in the process and likely keeping you in position to win the game with a massive crack-back. You're gaining, what, eight to twelve lives in the process? Assuming somehow, someway an opponent can make it past Chalice and Trinisphere, how are they going to punch through an additional ten to twelve life while facing down a horde of Juggernauts?

For example, say you play Titania - or Orb - facing down two flipped Delvers. You're at, say, eight life. Titania or the Orb resolves, and you sacrifice all of your lands to make five 5/3's and gain ten life. That's about the biggest swing in a game of fair Legacy you can get. Zuran Orb actually creates the rare backdoor where you don't say, "If only I had one more turn." It also helps a lot with Library out.

Sick.

Memories of the Time

12-05-2014, 08:27 AM

probably i'm somehow retarded, but Ratchet Bomb? Solves delver and pyrotoken (killing chalice too, true), Miracle angels and -in general- exploits the difference between our cc and theirs

Barook

12-05-2014, 04:28 PM

probably i'm somehow retarded, but Ratchet Bomb? Solves delver and pyrotoken (killing chalice too, true), Miracle angels and -in general- exploits the difference between our cc and theirs
Killing Chalice (and your Moxen) might indeed be a problem.

@Lejay: I saw that you're testing some new tech in the daily you went 4-0 with - Bow of Nylea, Bojuka Bog and E-Plague, from what I saw. How were the changes so far?

On a different note:
How has been the splash for red so far? The tech is shamelessly stolen from this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28918-RG-Trinimoon) thread, but Words of War piqued my interest. At worst, you draw a Shock when you want to to shoot down stuff like flipped Delvers, but it becomes nuts with Sylvan Library in play, even better with multiple ones, assuming you have the mana.

phazonmutant

12-05-2014, 08:32 PM

I went 3-1 yesterday. Played almost the same decks, and 2 of the same players. Beat UWR Delver (no Wastes), Lost to Junk Maverick, beat Elves, beat BUG Delver.

In one of the games I lost to Maverick, I played pretty atrociously. The other, I was stuck on 2 lands while he had a couple lands, Thalia, and a Teeg in play. I was basically locked out of my hand and ended up dying slowly. And then against BUG, by the time I could play my Baloth through Daze, I had already locked up the game, but his Goyfs were a major obstacle that caused me to lose game 2.

So that had me thinking - I wish there was a cheap threat that could block Goyf... Oh right. Goyf. Why aren't we playing several? It's better than Titania in almost every situation where you're behind, and can come down much earlier and be bigger than Baloth.

My list I'm thinking about playing in Portland:
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Obstinate Baloth

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Sylvan Library

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Choke
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Rolling Spoil

2 Mox Diamond
2 Dryad Arbor
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 g fetch
3 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Taiga

// Sideboard
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Obstinate Baloth
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Containment Priest
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pyroclasm
2 Massacre
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Karakas
1 Tower of the Magistrate

I also cut a Choke because I don't think we need the help in those matchups and the second is pretty redundant. Might be board-worthy though. A quick clock should help close before they can deal with the disruption.

nedleeds

12-05-2014, 08:43 PM

Who are you, and how did you get Greg's password?

... as is tradition getting a chalice forced happens quite alot I've never had a 3/4 or bigger Daze protected Goyf to follow it up with. seems good.

apple713

12-05-2014, 10:52 PM

I also cut a Choke because I don't think we need the help in those matchups and the second is pretty redundant. Might be board-worthy though. A quick clock should help close before they can deal with the disruption.

this is how i feel. your blue matchups are generally good, and choke seems like either overkill, or not detrimental enough.

Barook

12-06-2014, 06:22 AM

@phazonmutant: The deck isn't very good at putting various card types into the GY itself while also trying to prevent your opponents from doing so.

btm10

12-06-2014, 05:03 PM

@phazonmutant: The deck isn't very good at putting various card types into the GY itself while also trying to prevent your opponents from doing so.

This deck does have a bunch of artifacts and enchantments that tend to get countered/blown up, and runs its own instants and sorceries. And while GSZ doesn't end up in the bin super frequently, it does happen. On top of that, your opponent is still playing their own instants and sorceries.

Memories of the Time

12-06-2014, 06:09 PM

205p tournament today in Italy... lost the last turn (And 600e )against elves to reach top8.
t1 Infect 2-0
t2 reanimator 1-2 (obviously, sigh. Both times he win was for t1 entomb t2 exume/reanimate.... nice)
t3 Tes 2-1
t4 Miracle 2-0
t5 Miracle 2-0
t6 Miracle 1-1 (fuck, i've lost a game in a situation like: opponent with 1 angel, i'm at 6 life with coursier and ooze, library in play... shuffle, see, shuffle, for three turns all i've seen is lands and one library in like... 9 cards? No sense, almost every card would give me the win.)
t7 Deathblade 2-1
t8 Elves 0-2 g1 manage to play chalice 1 and trinisphere, he topdeck gaea zenith for sage break trini bounce with the insect already in play and break chalice too...

Lots of mulligans, almost for too few lands. Only in one match color screw for Rhino, i've seen very little wastelands in the room, and it has given me games that, with baloth, i would lost. Titania is amazing, kotr too, just have to improve the deck and test all the splash (red is very interesting, but we need white for Containment priest.)
Sorry for the mistakes, i'm very tired ^^ totally in love with this deck, yes =d

The list:
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Wasteland
1 Savannah
4 Sylvan Library
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Trinisphere
3 Choke
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Thragtusk
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Siege Rhino
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Windswept Heath
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Karakas
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Dust Bowl
2 Mox Diamond
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Scrubland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage

SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 2 Timely Reinforcements
SB: 1 Worship
SB: 3 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Trinisphere

Lejay

12-07-2014, 03:27 AM

Killing Chalice (and your Moxen) might indeed be a problem.

@Lejay: I saw that you're testing some new tech in the daily you went 4-0 with - Bow of Nylea, Bojuka Bog and E-Plague, from what I saw. How were the changes so far?

On a different note:
How has been the splash for red so far?
I have been testing a lot of new cards recently, all at once.I think I will keep some of them but bow of nylea is too specific for the main deck, and I don't think I can play a card dedicated to UR and burn.

I didn't play that much with the red splash lately both because I tested plagues and because I enjoyed having 4th wasteland instead of second savannah (with sage and no qasali). I think I will be on a 2 deluge 2 massacre split (+pulse in the old sb sage slot) from now on as I can't find a better configuration that let's me play with 4th wasteland. Plague will certainly be worth it in some metagames, but in unknown metas there could be chances you lack efficient removals with them.
I am testing with a bojuka bog among my 3 fast gravehates right now. It isn't great versus ant and reanimator, but it seems nice in the UR match-up both as 3rd sb land to replace tombs, a colored mana for massacre reliability, and an anti-delve card. So far the CIP tapped ability is not that much of a problem whereas exiling the opponent's grave has been pretty good.

So that had me thinking - I wish there was a cheap threat that could block Goyf... Oh right. Goyf. Why aren't we playing several? It's better than Titania in almost every situation where you're behind, and can come down much earlier and be bigger than Baloth.
RicFlairWoo tested intensively with Goyfs at the beginning so he will probably talk about them better than I would, but he finally dropped the idea.
It's not impossible for a one of goyf to make it but honestly saying it is better than Titania in almost every situation is completely wrong. You probably didn't play enough with her.

@Memories of the time : Nice run. I am still not sold on rhinos but I agree it is at least more doable now with mox diamonds. I also can get behind the containment priest idea if you meta runs a lot of sneak shows (even if you didn't face any this time). That said let me point out that you lost against reanimator and elves in quite commons ways (yes reanimator often goes turn 1 bin turn 2 reanimation spell and sage+decay+NO in elfball means your prison elements will sometimes just be able to save you some time). I face these match-ups on a regular basis online and that is partly why I run these fast grave hates and the spike+kalonian plan.

Memories of the Time

12-07-2014, 04:11 AM

@Lejay: thank you, now you're more famous in italy because of the number of people that have asked me info about my deck.
On the maindeck i think that the core satisfies me, probably 2x rhino is too much (or baloth), you just want to slam him on the table and see your oppo goes insane to remove him. I think that the only non-1x creatures i want is Courser, that's amazing.
On the sb, i don't know... if you put in Faerie Macabre (that's the more efficient card against Reanimator and Dredge, a 0 cost) how many oh them? Three could be a good number, but without Priest they still are the only way to win (against t2 combo), so you just mulligan to search her? At this point is better Leyline?

Anyway, against UR delver (and a lot more cards), can i suggest a old-tech from my Demon Stompy? Crypt Rats (a nightmare for Miracle too, kill pw and angel).(forgotten Only black mana:Don't think is realistic against miracle, Still 2 mana wipe out many board

Lejay

12-07-2014, 06:44 AM

I did have 2 ravenous trap 1 faerie macabre until recently, but I decided putting in bojuka bog and it seems to do the work I intended it to versus UR so far. So I'll continue playing with a 1-1-1 which seems ok since cabal therapy is often played in these decks. Of course if you expect only reanimator or only dredge, then just adapt the slots.

I don't like crypt rats against UR at all, it's seems clearly inferior to toxic deluge.

Memories of the Time

12-07-2014, 08:54 AM

No comment for Worship? Easy a gg against UR or i'm missing something?

Lejay

12-07-2014, 09:12 AM

It's probably a good tool versus UR. But it's very targeted and not an auto win by itself nor with one creature. 4 mana piercable is not that easy to resolve with a clock and counters from the other side.
If it was good versus elves I could have given it a go.

Barook

12-07-2014, 10:16 AM

Memories of the Time

12-07-2014, 10:41 AM

Barook

12-07-2014, 10:48 AM

i was thinking about the same ideas. No way to deal TNN without black, otherwise i'll think white>black (thinking red give us pyroclasm -i love this card in this metagame, even md). I like Words of War but it's too cute against p.fire ^^
The main point is: without white and priest you accept to lose against S&T, it's ok? i think we have no way out, like 10-90, in this case...
How is Priest anyway, considering it also cuts us off from GSZ (and fetching for Dryad Arbor)?

And I did suggest a potential out in form of Crop Rotation + Karakas, although that has to be tested.

apple713

12-07-2014, 10:50 AM

From what I've seen in my own playtesting and watching replays from daily events where people play the deck, the main problems of the deck are:

Delver (and Pyromancer to a certain degree), SFM/Batterskull, legendary fatties cheated into play (Reanimator/S&T), Elves (and maybe JMS).

With white being basically cut down to the point of running 1 KotR and 1 Teeg from the board (Karakas could be seen as colorless land for the utility factor), I seriously question the white splash in favor of a red splash for Punishing Fire (maybe 1-2 Words of War if you want to be fancy, assuming it would turn out good) and sideboard sweepers. I'm not advocating cutting black for red, I suggest running red (instead of white) alongside black to combine the advantages of both. If we go in with this premise, we might be able to clear slots for the PF engine.

PF kills Delver, Pyromancer, SFM (also Batterskull with enough mana), random Elves and Planeswalkers. That's alot of problems it could deal with effectively. We keep black for AD and dealing with TNN. KotR is good and all, but doesn't really solve those problems.

I know that the possibility of using KotR for utility lands from the board is cute, but with only 1 MD KotR that takes ages to get everything online if you have to GSZ for it seems rather slow. Which lead me to this crazy idea:

Crop Rotations in the board to fetch Tower, Karakas and Bog. Yes, I'm fully aware that it's a major disadvantage if it gets countered and that it doesn't work with CotV @1, but I think of it more as a cheap "OH SHIT!"-button when they try to reanimate stuff early or jam down noodle monsters and bargain demons. Tabernacle could also be a target against various decks IF the Crop Rotation plan works out. Would also work to find Groves, but that's a minor concern.

white is great if you embrace it. Teeg / Quasali are allstars against most combo matches. Teeg hits Miracles, ANT, Sneak attack, dredge, and Spiral tide. Pridemage is just all around better than reclamation sage because he can put pressure on opponent while they stall trying to find a way to deal with him. He's actually my preferred slot over Reclamation.

Delver (and Pyromancer to a certain degree) are meh, i've found that the better i play they crappier their decks seem. Playing around daze generally make 4 of their cards worthless. and they can only draw so many FOW. However, sometimes they just get nutty hands where you t1 chalice, and they draw 4x pyromancers or goyfs... Shit happens. UR delver decks run moon in the board so relying on PF may not be optimal.

SFM/Batterskull is solved by reliably searching up Tower of the magistrate.

legendary fatties cheated into play (Reanimator/S&T) are solved by reliably searching up Karakas / Bojuka. Willow Satyr has served me well, and so has sigarda, host of herons

Elves bite it hard to glacial chasm.

JTMS in my experience really only sees play in miracles and nic fit, but miracles should be easy if you can shut down SDT.

Grove / fires could probably help delver, SFM, elves issues but you would still need to have a reliable way to tutor lands. Additionally you are looking at needing 4-5 slots minimum, 2/2 or 2/3.

with the crop rotation board you are looking at ~five cards also.

I run 3xcrop rotation main deck with 4x chalice main and have almost 0 issues. The reason is because while chalice is in play, i have the advantage cause it's preventing ~12 of their cards. As soon as they destroy it you can instantly crop rotation for a land that has an immediate impact on the game.

@ containment priest: you probably won't ever want to run this because of the anti synergy with the deck. The second you remove GSZ from this decks its just as inconsistent and clunky as stax. Its also not that big a deal playing against it because it maybe shows up as a 2 of out of most D&T boards and some Miracle boards. D&T has no way to tutor for it and you can play around it sometimes if you are careful.

Memories of the Time

12-07-2014, 01:20 PM

Anti-synergy? The problem is make her live, in this case you win, 100%. Same identical matter of Gaddock Teeg, but you play him no? Never thought about remove GSZ, it's the core of the deck °°

Qasali>Reclamation of course, and by far for several reasons. I've lost mine at the beginning of the tournament, so i was forced to play reclamation last minute. Very Sad.

I can't imagine to find 3 slots maindeck for another non creature-card, really, that makes card disvantages if countered and clashs with chalice (two times, at this tournament, with chalice at 1 i've drawn DRS, an 1x...). Crop rotation+bojuka seems very nice, of course, as crop+karakas (doesn't block Sneak attack!). i think Willow Satyr is incredibly slow to rely on.

Elves doesn't give a fuck about Glacial Chasm like Worship, they can buy you one turn if you're lucky, no more, if they start their combo.

Anyway, putting in P.Fire Means cut down decay, i'm right? This could not be so terrible if we side in Krosan Grip when we need it...

phazonmutant

12-07-2014, 03:07 PM

RicFlairWoo tested intensively with Goyfs at the beginning so he will probably talk about them better than I would, but he finally dropped the idea.
It's not impossible for a one of goyf to make it but honestly saying it is better than Titania in almost every situation is completely wrong. You probably didn't play enough with her.
You're right, Titania is definitely good enough as a one of. I did some more testing. Goyf is great as a mid to late game threat, but not turn 2. I still think it's good enough at that role that it's worth playing 2.

I'm currently 2-1 in Portland. Lost to Jund. I didn't really know how to play the matchup. Seems like Titania and running Baloths are the only way to win.

Barook

12-07-2014, 04:23 PM

Anyway, putting in P.Fire Means cut down decay, i'm right? This could not be so terrible if we side in Krosan Grip when we need it...
I was thinking about a 3/3 split between PF and Decay.

First rough draw:

3 Ancient Tomb
3 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Taiga
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Mox Diamond

1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Obstinate Baloth
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Choke
4 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Rolling Spoil

1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Karakas
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Spike Weaver
1 Kalonian Hydra
1 Tower of the Magistrate
2 Massacre
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Crop Rotation

The sideboard could contain a 4th AD or PF or a few copies of Pyroclasm. Teeg could also still be cast in theory with some the few white sources in the deck, but he's mainly a GSZ target, isn't he? Just some food for thought what I had in mind.

apple713

12-07-2014, 05:22 PM

I was thinking about a 3/3 split between PF and Decay.

First rough draw:

3 Ancient Tomb
3 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Taiga
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Mox Diamond

1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Obstinate Baloth
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Choke
4 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Rolling Spoil

1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Karakas
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Spike Weaver
1 Kalonian Hydra
1 Tower of the Magistrate
2 Massacre
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Crop Rotation

The sideboard could contain a 4th AD or PF or a few copies of Pyroclasm. Teeg could also still be cast in theory with some the few white sources in the deck, but he's mainly a GSZ target, isn't he? Just some food for thought what I had in mind.

i have found that the ideal # of creatures for this deck is ~12... you have 8, which only 4 are threats and 1 is a good threat. At this point you are probably spreading yourself too thin. You probably don't need rolling spoils now that you have punishing fires, so they could be creatures. Also, it seems like you are not just playing a green control deck instead of an agro deck.

Nekrataal

12-07-2014, 05:34 PM

trying out this list as a realized that I want R too. It is more of a Hybrid with a Loam Deck and I didn't keep Trinisphere as it sometimes felt like unnecessary with CotV out. 3 Chokes are SB just for testing purposes. In my current Meta I would play them main for less Removal. I have forsaken Stompy Lands for now and play a full Mox set. The Lifeloss was sometimes relevant and in a 4C version you cannot effort too much colorless lands. Instead I tried the DD combo which up to now wasn't very relevant as the means to find it are not that big. So it might be I go back to something else which is a mix between Mox and stompy lands.

1x Bojuka Bog
4x Verdant Catacomb
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Dark Depth
3x Wasteland

1x Thespian's Stage
2x Tranquil Thicket
1x Forest
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Karakas
1x Badlands
1x Scrubland
1x Taiga
1x Savannah
2x Bayou
1x Devastating Dreams
1x Pyroclasm
2x Toxic Deluge
2x Sylvan Library
3x Green Sun Zenith
2x Life from the Loam
3x Punishing Fire
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Titania, protector of Argoth
1x Siege Rhino
1x Wickerbough Elder
2x Obstinate Baloth
1x courser of kurphix
2x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Scavening Ooze
1x Gaddock teeg
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond

Sideboard:

3x Choke
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell vale
1x Spike Weaver
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Thrun, the last Troll
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Containment Priest
1x Massaker
1x Golgari Charm
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Slaughter Games

Barook

12-07-2014, 05:55 PM

i have found that the ideal # of creatures for this deck is ~12... you have 8, which only 4 are threats and 1 is a good threat. At this point you are probably spreading yourself too thin. You probably don't need rolling spoils now that you have punishing fires, so they could be creatures. Also, it seems like you are not just playing a green control deck instead of an agro deck.
PF can't get rid of TNN, and the LD aspect from Spoil comes handy sometimes. As I said, it's just a rough draw for discussion.

What I don't get is your critique about the threat numbers - it's one creature lower than Lejay's list and 8 + 4 GSZ are still 12 creatures. I could agree that their threat level might be debatable, though.

How about this change:
-1 Grove, +1 Savannah
-1 Spoil, +1 KotR

Supporting Pridemage over Sage with that kinda of manabase would seem shaky, at best. At the very least, more access to white mana makes Teeg in the SB justifiable again. I know Lejay loves his basic Swamp to death, but if the route to go was 4C, I would probably cut the Swamp to up the fetchland count back to 7 again.

Memories of the Time

12-07-2014, 08:17 PM

I don't know if white is the colour to sacrifice for red, in case. For the meta and the MU i fear, i'm much more on a thing like:

3 Ancient Tomb
2 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Wasteland
1 Savannah
4 Sylvan Library
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Choke
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
3 Windswept Heath
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Karakas
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Dust Bowl
3 Mox Diamond (+1 -1 Drs)
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Eternal Witness
1 Qasali Pridemage
(old part)

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Punishing Fire
1 Life from the Loam
1 Kitchen Finks (1°Rhino)
1 Huntmaster of the Fells (2° Rhino)
1 Council's Judgment

1 Plateau
4 Wooded Foothills

SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Worship
SB: 3 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction/trap/anothr Faerie
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Pyroclasm/1 Wrath of God (soooo old style, beta of course!)

If we keep black, i think i'll consider Slaughter Games, one of my favorite cards. I think that the things red and black can do is quite the same, except for Nemesi.

Nekrataal

12-09-2014, 06:17 AM

I don't know if white is the colour to sacrifice for red, in case. For the meta and the MU i fear, i'm much more on a thing like:

If we keep black, i think i'll consider Slaughter Games, one of my favorite cards. I think that the things red and black can do is quite the same, except for Nemesi.

Black is better for cheap and effective Mass Removal and also counter-safe catch-all Removal. Red can't do that as effectively or cross permanent types but has more reach as it can handle PWs or use Burn as a win condition or recurring removal for small dudes. So although they both plow the same field they do it quite differently and depending on the matchup you want to have one or the otheror ideally both ;-) White still offers most for a third color as I feel that Rhino, Teeg and Knight are pretty awesome in this Deck and also key to win against certain decks / strategies. Also White offers a ton of hate bears against combo decks which the deck is susceptible for. I playtested Elves the other day and I was happy to have Teeg, Containment Priest, Ethersworn Canonist and Cotv alongside my GSZ. NO for something like a 15/15 big worm is simply unstoppable for this deck otherwise.

apple713

12-09-2014, 06:47 AM

Problems I had with NO when I played it were first the unfixable bad draws. I tried fauna shaman and dawnstrider main for progenitus and the 15/15 wurm I had in the sb but it wasn't great.

I know lejay commented briefly on fauna shaman but it seems like its main function was to discard progen and wurm. Has anyone else tried Fauna Shaman?

Are there any other utility creatures like fauna shaman and Knight of the reliquary that are worth mentioning?

Barook

12-09-2014, 07:48 AM

I know lejay commented briefly on fauna shaman but it seems like its main function was to discard progen and wurm. Has anyone else tried Fauna Shaman?

Are there any other utility creatures like fauna shaman and Knight of the reliquary that are worth mentioning?
I don't think Fauna Shaman is doing any good in a deck with 10 creatures or so.

If we actually ran more CiP creatures for utility, I would rather want to test Restoration Angel, but Titania/Baloth/Sage aren't enough to justify that.

TraxDaMax

12-10-2014, 08:50 PM

Reading all of this I just figured out that the next clasm Wotc decides to print should be
RB: sorcery
All creatures get -1/-1 until end of turn. Blablabla deals 1 damage to each creature.

:)

Lejay

12-11-2014, 03:54 AM

Reading all of this I just figured out that the next clasm Wotc decides to print should be
RB: sorcery
All creatures get -1/-1 until end of turn. Blablabla deals 1 damage to each creature.

:)

An additionnal -1/-1 to humans would be enough.

MGB

12-12-2014, 07:43 AM

So what decks / strategies does this have problems with right now? It's pretty obvious what are its good matchups but what has been troublesome, in order of difficulty, for this in testing so far?

Lejay

12-12-2014, 07:40 PM

I'd say sneak show since I don't metagame much for it (almost inexistent online). Elves and infect aren't easy despite your artifacts. MUD seems slightly unfavourable. Patriot delver seems more annoying since I cut the grips.
I wouldn't be against further improving UR also.

Memories of the Time

12-13-2014, 08:11 AM

bruizar

12-14-2014, 07:46 AM

pettdan

12-14-2014, 08:06 AM

In my awefully similar creatureless RG artifact control deck, I'm siding in Blood Moon for Chokes against lands and I have no problems against elves due to a critical mass of removal spells (Serrated Arrows, Punishing Fires, Contagion Engine). I am looking for ways to beat Reanimator and Sneak & Show too. Leyline of the Void is an option against Reanimator because it deals with Dredge too but it is an inelegant option. Sneak and show, which is quiet popular here, is quiet problematic.

If you're not running creatures Ensnaring Bridge seems like a great option? Probably complemented with a leyline or surgical if you want faster answers vs reanimator.

Barook

12-14-2014, 08:41 AM

apple713

12-14-2014, 11:19 AM

Wouldn't running more Karakas in the board do the trick? Sure, it can't really stop Sneak Attack, but it definitely makes their life harder. It also keeps Marit Lage at bay until they can waste it.

If you want to go balls-deep in as far as metagaming goes, you could consider O-Ring/Banishing Light.

As a D&T player, I can tell that Phyrexian Revoker is the card that really wrecks them in conjunction with Karakas. No Griselbrand activations, no Sneak Attack - and Karakas handles the fatties.

If those match-ups are your concern, I would start with this board:

3 Karakas
3 Phyrexian Revoker

I leave up the rest to you to figure out the cuts.

the reason that you will find revokers useful is because they are accompanied by karakas. So 1 turns off sneak, and one turns off show & Tell. Attacking both of their options is truly the way to go if you want to be successful. Additionally you have to put pressure on them while doing it, otherwise they'll dig out of it. It can be a number of cards like pithing needle, stingerfling spider, willow saytr, revoker, but if you are running white for karakas, you might as well just use containment priest... to kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

peacekeeper is really solid too

Barook

12-14-2014, 12:12 PM

the reason that you will find revokers useful is because they are accompanied by karakas. So 1 turns off sneak, and one turns off show & Tell. Attacking both of their options is truly the way to go if you want to be successful. Additionally you have to put pressure on them while doing it, otherwise they'll dig out of it. It can be a number of cards like pithing needle, stingerfling spider, willow saytr, revoker, but if you are running white for karakas, you might as well just use containment priest... to kill 2 birds with 1 stone.
Revoker can have applications in other matches as well.

Doesn't Containment Priest clash too much with our GSZ?

Edit: Revoker also stops Griselbrand shenanigans when put into play with S&T while Priest does nothing. I'll give you being useful against Elves, though.

Memories of the Time

12-14-2014, 12:49 PM

Wait.
If we have white, there isn't nothing like Priest against S&T, Reanimator and Elves in one card. I've been a Peacekeeper player for 4 years, and he:
-Doesn't stop combo, just makes them skip their attack phase. So Griselbrand could draw 7 and 7 again and find a pyroclasm/bounce-->GG. Elves draws their library and decay our keeper, no obstacles. Reanimator could make Ashen Rider or Elesh Norn.

I've been suggesting revoker since page 1, but problems lejay and others have pointed remain. It dies by all our removal, is fragile and could be not enough.
I'm thinking that the best options is run a sideboard like: 4 Priest +2 Surgical/Faerie Macabre. Still there aren't any cards against lands or Post...

TraxDaMax

12-15-2014, 04:30 PM

Played 3 Rounds yesterday, but underperformed.

Round 1 0-2 B/G Infect
Game one I basicly lose of a infect land that he gets to pump with pendelhaven and 2x Ivigorate.
Game 2 I bring in my Enginieered Plagues, but he has 2 Abrupt Decays for them and beats me with 2/2 first strike infecters

Round 2 RUG Delver 2-0
Both games basicly end when I resolve a Choke. Not much to tell here. Having played RUG a bit in the past I felt sorry for the guy because this deck is definately NOT what you want to encounter in your matchups.

Round 3 DnT 1-2

game 1 double Rishadan's Port with a vial in play keep me from playing anything while he slowly deploys threats
game 2 Enginieered Plague on Humans and Elemental wins me the game.
game 3 a wasteland and a port keep me from casting anything.

Although 1-2 isn't a terrific result, I am actually still very keen on this deck. Not sure if I would change anything at all, Massacre in side might be usefull.
Tabernacle is a boss. People don't expect it and get blown out by it.

Memories of the Time

12-16-2014, 12:01 PM

Is a creazy idea run 2 Eladamri's Call, with just 1x creatures? I'm thinking about it in a strong 3c shell like mine, of course, but i think it gives even more flexibility and good topdeck, giving the opportunity of take cards like Priest, Canonist, peacekeeper, orzhov pontiff, phyrexian revoker and, in substance, every 1x card that kill single MU otherwise very hard to deal with.
Dunno, i think that what this deck needs is a fast and flexible card against bad mu. Crop Rotation could be a thing too, of course...

Pastorofmuppets

12-16-2014, 07:35 PM

Are Eyes of the Wisent and Pulse of the Tangle too cute to run in a URx Delver/Pyro-heavy meta?

apple713

12-16-2014, 07:41 PM

Are Eyes of the Wisent and Pulse of the Tangle too cute to run in a URx Delver/Pyro-heavy meta?

i would say that eyes are because it can be played around. Pulse on the other hand is not likely to be played around. However it's only useful if you are behind, or they have a pyromania out. GG makes it slightly more difficult to cast with ancient tomb but at most 2 casts. keep in mind if it gets countered it doesn't get returned so it may not be the key.

bruizar

12-21-2014, 04:13 AM

From my test:
-Sneak&Show -> by far, without *total* card like Containment Priest i think it's very horrible even post side. The n°1 reason i've to keep white in my metagame (Italy)
-Reanimator: if you lose the dice i think you can start to look at your sideboard
-Elves: as above
-Lands/DD deck

Played my creatureless build and went
Reanimator 1-2
Elves 1-1 draw but locked out only 1 land left

Elves was easy, reanimator I was not prepared for at all.

FoolofaTook

12-21-2014, 09:34 AM

In my awefully similar creatureless RG artifact control deck, I'm siding in Blood Moon for Chokes against lands and I have no problems against elves due to a critical mass of removal spells (Serrated Arrows, Punishing Fires, Contagion Engine). I am looking for ways to beat Reanimator and Sneak & Show too. Leyline of the Void is an option against Reanimator because it deals with Dredge too but it is an inelegant option. Sneak and show, which is quiet popular here, is quiet problematic.

In a red list your best answer to Show and Tell is red blasts. You can go with Ensnaring Bridge as an option but it won't answer all options that Show and Tell has available, particularly after sideboarding. Red blasts will still have the tap out and die problem as well as FoW and in some lists Daze.

Darklingske

12-22-2014, 04:03 AM

Played the national legacy championship yesterday. Nice turnout (112 people), but OMG!
R1 Burn 2-0
Chalice @ 1 T1, Trini T2 was GG. Game 2 almost the same except he was on the play now.
R2 Jund 1-2
Almost unwinnable MU. G2 he struggles with his mana and I can steal the game. G3 I struggle with my mana and a quick Goyf followed by lili seals the deal.
R3 D&T 0-2
Both games manatroubles. G1 double port + double waste. G2 mull to 5 followed by land into land into land.
R4 GRexplorer 2-0
Chalice @ 1 and critters seal the deal.
R5 D&T 1-2
G1 fast beatings with Angel & Crusader. G2 he is manascrewed. G3 again a fast crusader and I can't find removal.
R6 UWR 1-1-1
At last a Blue deck! But unfortunately we go into time and a draw it is.
At this point I'm fed up with the horrible MU and I drop. Were did al the blue decks go????

Lejay

12-22-2014, 08:20 AM

ESG

12-22-2014, 03:36 PM

Played the national legacy championship yesterday. Nice turnout (112 people), but OMG!
...
At this point I'm fed up with the horrible MU and I drop. Were did al the blue decks go????

Probably to the top tables. When you're playing a deck so skewed to prey on blue decks, you need to avoid random bad matchups for the first few rounds. Of course, this is assuming that the field was similar to other tournaments, where blue decks rise to the top either due to the stronger players favoring them or due to decks' internal consistency. If your championship's field had fewer blue decks than normal, then I'd say you played the wrong deck for the field. Just based on your matchups, Charbelcher would have been a better choice.

TraxDaMax

12-22-2014, 05:05 PM

Choobak

12-22-2014, 08:58 PM

I played this in Geneva this sunday (77 players 7 rounds + top 8) :

2 Savannah
1 Swamp
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 Courser of Kruphix
3 Obstinate Baloth
3 Mox Diamond
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Choke
4 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Rolling Spoil
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Tower of the Magistrate
SB: 1 Spike Weaver
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Kalonian Hydra
SB: 1 Giant Solifuge
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Massacre

I made 4w-1d-2l,

2-1 against RUG (Théo) , at the 1st, I was quickly kicked by a tarmo T2 who stick the board (No creature and/or decay to help me). At the 2 and the 3 I locked him knocked out him with knight or titania.

1-1-1 against junk (Dung) (very slow girl), she won the 1 by DRS + batterskull and I won the 2 by knight + titania. She was very too slow and unfortunatelly we were not in competitive and we had just one level 1 judge... no time for the 3.

1-2 against patriot, (Sébastien) GP Version with young pyro. I won the 1st by choke trini and i had believed to play against miracle. I lose the 2nd because of yp who swarmed hurry up the board without i saw a Decay. And finally, i lose the last on bad choice i made between spoils, decay, choke (named on his MM) and pulse. He had TNN and jitte on bord + MM, I should play spoils and next turn decay MM and choke. But i play decay on jitte when he équiped TNN then next turn pulse on MM. And next turn, He counters my spoils (he drew a FOW)... Stupid :/

2-0 against d&t, (Joakim) I had the ugliest T1 of the world against him : tomb, mox discard land, mox discard waste, GSZ at 3 -> courser And my last card is titania ... he wasted my tomb ? No souci : Courser help me to fix that... Titania killed him. the 2 can be summered by "oh, you really want to made a board ? No ! Spoils and Toxic déluge !".

0-2 against junk, My baloth stayed on my library, his Dark confident foil drew very well and his liliana foil let me see the moon each time. I was begun the 1 by T1 choke with smile...

2-0 against merfolk, (Steeve) choke, trini, but he things long times for his choice to play with his vial face to a knight 6/6 and baloth... The 2 is the same butcher place but i finish him in the additionnal turns... Hope makes life.

2-0 against junk. This time, when he had liliana, i had baloth :D et I won by 2 courser and sylvan library and knight and baloth. Decay killed his knight.

Not enough blue deck here... The top 8 was BUG, UR, patriot, poison, miracle, jund junk and enchanteress. Poison won the final against Miracle.

Darklingske

12-23-2014, 05:07 AM

The surprising thing is that you lost twice against death and taxes. The match-up of course can't be unlosable but in my experience it has been extremely good post sb with all the collateral damage they take due to your answers for other threats. What was your list ?

The list I played was your last list with the light White splash and 2 Mox Diamond. I tested the MU several times and it is indeed favorable, but I got unlucky I guess. I lost all dierolls except the first Round. And against D&T (the first game) I lost because of the double waste and double port. I was never able to do anything relevant since my mana was choked all the time and Thalia made it extra painfull. Add that up to mulliganing to 5 G2 and being unable to find any removal and the first loss was there. The second MU against D&T I lost G1 because of double striking crusader with a sword. G2 all went as planned, but G3 it was again no luck. I casted T1 Library but never found a Massacre, deluge, Spoils, Tower, Karakas or Spider. Variance is a bitch...
And indedd, all the blue decks were in the upper half of the bracket. I guess that if I met a Blue deck R2, things would have gone different, but that is all in hindsight ofcourse. Oh well, I did have a blast playing the deck and that is the most important thing for me!

alaska

12-23-2014, 07:29 PM

Lurked this thread for awhile, and played against Sylvan Plug for the first time last night at a local legacy weekly event. Chalice@1, Choke, and Trinisphere in play, not something TES can deal with.

Props on an awesome deck though, makes me want to build it myself.

alaska

12-23-2014, 07:29 PM

*Deleted, double post.*

ang3lfir3

12-26-2014, 07:23 PM

@Alaska - That was me. I enjoyed our games and I learned a lot about TES from you. I hope to get a chance to come back soon.

Played this for the first time last monday in a weekly event:

Went 3-0-1 (ID in last round vs Lands)

3x Ancient Tomb
1x Savannah
1x Swamp
3x Bayou
2x Dryad Arbor
3x Forest
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Abrupt Decay
1x Cartographer // could be eternal witness but the single G proved useful (we are usually getting a fetch or a wasteland anyway).
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Choke
2x Courser of Kruphix
1x Deathrite Shaman
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Mox Diamond
3x Obstinate Baloth
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Rolling Spoil
3x Sylvan Library
1x Titania, Protector of Argoth
3x Trinisphere

Sideboard:
1x bojuka bog
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Kalonian Hydra
1x Karakas
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Massacre
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Spike Weaver
2x Thoughtseize // a last minute addition that proved useful
1x Tower of the Magistrate
1x Toxic Deluge

Round 1 vs TES: Chalice @ 1 , then trinisphere and choke took game one with baloth rushing in to close. Game 2 - he combo'd off quickly and I conceded (my kind opponent told me later that I conceded too early and should have stuck it out. He was correct of course, lesson learned). Game 3 - more lock pieces and thoughtseize plus wasteland keep my opponent just far enough behind that I can close with some beater.

1-0

Round2 vs Dredge: Chalice @ 1 doesn't do too much and this is not the landless variety. Game one ends with him having something like 22 zombies to attach next turn and an 11 gravetroll. Game 2 - I keep a hand that has (sol land, mox diamond, GSZ, ooze, etc. ) I hope that mox plus GSZ for dryad arbor and a turn two ooze is enough to get the job done. He has a slow hand ooze manages to eat a bridge before it makes a zombie and I draw a wasteland to play courser and get back on track for lands. I draw lots of hate cards and trinisphere still makes life difficult. I get to 5 and cast Kalonian Hydra to close the door quickly. Game 3 - He mulligans to 4 (dude is stone cold and a dredge aficionado). I come out of the gates fast and get a big night and courser going. Wasteland untapped with a dryad arbor in play as "Bridge Insurance". I wasteland my own lands and a 9/9 knight charges in after getting a bojuka bog.

2-0

Round 3 vs Omni-Tell: Game 1 starts with chalice @1 and then a trinisphere. Courser and library get me all the cards and the beats. Baloths hit the table and swing for the fences. Game 2 - Not much sideboarding as this is a matchup we love. took out decays and brought in thoughtseize and deluge (just incase and emrakul gets loose) and the karakas. You could also bring in Maelstrom Pulse here too to deal with a naked Omni. This game goes much like the first except my opponent gets to play a S&T with trinisphere in play. Puts Omni into play and then realizes how bad trinisphere is for them. I put Titania into play and make a bunch of 5/3's (a fetch and waste my own bayou)

3-0

Round 4 vs Lands: Intentional Draw .... made the split better and that seems to be a really hard matchup to win. Maybe with chalice @ 1 & 2 but even then I am not sure.

All in all the deck was amazing and the lock pieces seemed so unfair to my opponents. I liked the sideboard options and you can see I changed them up a little but for the most part it is the same. I do have to say the thoughtseizes were great out of the board against combo decks. I also loved the two Mox Diamonds, I hated drawing the second one without a backup land but that only happened twice and the times I had it early it was powerful. I like cartographer too tho it was suggested that he could be eternal witness ... I am not sure how the G vs GG costs balance out with the fact we usually are just getting back fetches and wastelands. (also cartographer survives rolling spoil). I did like only having access to 3 Sylvans, the card is super powerful but I found myself only wanting to play it in the later turns (unless my early turns were empty and I probably should have mulligan'd) drawing the second one seemed poor.

Memories of the Time

12-28-2014, 08:08 PM

Very sad tournament today:

UG Post 0-2 (both games lost with Dust Bowl on my side, just to understand how the deck has worked... incredible. g1 by manascrew under library (can't find the fourth land when i need it), g2 by 3 Green Titan at a stretch (killed them all), then topdeck of Emrakul at the last usefull turn...

Omnitell 2-0 easy

Elves 0-2 same player that has kicked me out of last tournament. g1 mull to 4 for me (no lands, only lands, no lands, 2 lands a library... keep, he has closed at his 2° turn otd ^^ g2 crop rotation for Tabernacle, he obv had Gaea, but i have Kotr in hand an trini! Never found 3° lands in 6 turns...

UR 2-0

Elves Again 0-2
g1 and g2 i play my hate, he fin early Natural Order and gg. Two time manascrew here too.

Can't understand how we can beat elves...

apple713

12-28-2014, 10:31 PM

Memories of the Time

12-29-2014, 03:03 AM

At Nebraska war, Elves could get rid of Trinisphere+Chalice at 1 in one turn ^^
Board sweepers ecc don't do much if we haven't a good lock like Delver, and Natural Order evades all our hatebears. Plus, post side they have decay-grip-reclamation and so on.

I think that the only reliable way to deal with them is Plague, Tabernacle (now i'm playing 4x crop rotation+Bojuka+Tabernacole sideboard) or something like this.

Barook

01-03-2015, 08:45 AM

How are we going to handle YP's big brother, considering it and its tokens can outgrow our sweepers?

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/134/743/635556637507898693.jpg

Lejay

01-03-2015, 09:07 AM

Abrupt decay is still the primary removal in this deck. My latest list (before someone asks, still the same as I haven't played in three weeks) had 1 deluge 1 rolling spoil main deck. We run trinisphere to prevent the boost that would escape massacre. If UR goes away for a similar deck with plains and a bit slower I wouldn't be sad about it.
In short no worries atm.

MD.Ghost

01-03-2015, 11:00 AM

I still play 2 Toxic Deluge Main over Rolling Spoil - last time i faced Show&Tell/Eureka and one game he Eureka 1 Emrakul and 2 Blightsteel Colossus, Toxic Deluge for 15 was awesome.

As Lejay mentioned, more W-Decks are also better for our Massacre :wink:

adrieng

01-07-2015, 05:35 AM

Did anyone tryied Night Of soul's betrayal in the maindeck in the rolling spoil slot ?
I think it is way better. Der Einherjer suggested a Bug list with it maindeck and I think the card is like choke very well positioned right now.
Looking at what it kills : it wrecks UR YP+token+delver unflipped ; elves ; Death and taxes ; UWR TNN...
I know it doesn't do anything against combo and control but destroying a land is not so much better ?
The BB cost might be an issue maybe playing one or two urborg tomb might changes that it also allows to tap tomb without losing life for B.

MGB

01-12-2015, 03:14 PM

I will be there. I'm going with a full-on "fuck it" mentality. Star City Opens have never been good to me, aside from a few Top 16s.

I was really looking forward to seeing you at this thing and finally meeting you and watching you play Sylvan Plug. Alas, I guess you had last minute complications with travelling to the venue? Did you give up on this deck?

Barook

01-15-2015, 05:31 PM

I'll wait for B&R announcement before starting working on the deck again at the end of the month when my job gets less stressful, but since there's already another discussion thread on it:

Anti-synergy with CotV aside, I wonder how good Carpet of Flowers would be here.

Barook

01-20-2015, 05:52 PM

Sorry for the double post, but the B&R definitely changed some things. I wonder if the deck is going to be still viable in the new meta, which is probably going to look similiar to the Pre-TC meta.

Is MD Choke still going to be a thing? Or should we shift it to the board and run other stuff like more removal/utility instead? Does Baloth gain relevance again in face of Lilianas?

Memories of the Time

01-22-2015, 07:16 AM

I think we can't know if this deck will be ok in the next meta: the main point will be how many jund/other non blue midrange we will meet. Without Cruise we lost our only not-so-good MU against Blue based, UR: anyway, in a deck with so few creatures Liliana could be a big problem, imho.

Lejay

01-22-2015, 08:33 AM

For liliana having 4 decays and 2 fetchable dryads should do it in addition to baloth's ability.
General metagame goes from overwhelmingly blue to a large majority of blue decks again. We keep our best blue match-ups and lose our worst blue match-ups. So I still like the deck but without treasure cruise to warp the meta it becomes even more important to ponder the choice of playing it according to your local metagame. In a static metagame, full of pet decks and with not much blue, it will be a poor investment. In metagames full of dedicated blue players that like to netdeck what scg pros do it is THE choice unless they all play sneak show.

Barook

01-22-2015, 01:35 PM

It's going to take a while until MODO updates of the ban list (thanks, Worth! :rolleyes: ), but I'm currently toying around with various Punishing Fire builds.

Sample list:

3 Wasteland
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Dryad Arbor
3 Mox Diamond

1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Life from the Loam
4 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Punishing Fire

SB:
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Karakas
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Spike Weaver
1 Kalonian Hydra
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pyroclasm
3 Choke

One thing I found out in my limiting testing is that if you want to run PF, you definitely want to run 4 Groves, not just 3. I've also added a third Mox to support this multicolor madness to see how it goes.

One thing I might consider in this kind of build is -1 Tomb +1 Wasteland. The single Loam is just kinda random and might go for something else if it fails to impress. Maybe a second KotR, plus replacing a Tomb with a MD Karakas (both act as colorless mana sources most of the time, while the third Mox fulfills the accel slot). The more KotR and Karakas we have in our 75, the more game we get against S&T (sadly, not so much against Sneak Attack). MD Karakas would also make Titania shenanigans easier.

Depending on how blue the post-ban meta is going to be, I'll might add Chokes back to the MD (highly likely, this is just a test bed for new ideas). I wonder how much Pyroclasm would be needed against Elves with a full PF set in addition to AD. I'd certainly like to run more -x/-x effects to deal with stuff TNN and friends.

Whippoorwill

01-25-2015, 08:59 PM

Someone playing the deck got 12th place at the IQ today:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=79214

Barook

01-26-2015, 03:56 PM

If he hadn't lost in the last round, he would have reached Top 8.

80+% blue decks in the Top 32 despite TC being banned, so there's that.

Tibalt

01-26-2015, 10:35 PM

Hey I am the one who finished 12th at Washington DC. I only lost to dredge on the day... twice including my win and in. I had not put effort into the deck since the grand prix and really should of run ravenous trap over the fairie. I would run the list tomorrow -1 courser, +1 ooze main and - 2 fairie side, + 2 ravenous trap, -1 massacre + 1 bojuka bog. The list was amazing compared to what I ran in the grand prix. Thank you Lejay for putting so much work into it. If anyone has questions just ask on the thread. I faced the following decks: 2 dredge, 2 miracles, 1 rw painter, 1 rug delver, 1 omnishow and 1 storm.

MD.Ghost

01-27-2015, 07:45 AM

Maybe a second KotR, plus replacing a Tomb with a MD Karakas (both act as colorless mana sources most of the time, while the third Mox fulfills the accel slot). The more KotR and Karakas we have in our 75, the more game we get against S&T (sadly, not so much against Sneak Attack). MD Karakas would also make Titania shenanigans easier.

Depending on how blue the post-ban meta is going to be, I'll might add Chokes back to the MD (highly likely, this is just a test bed for new ideas). I wonder how much Pyroclasm would be needed against Elves with a full PF set in addition to AD. I'd certainly like to run more -x/-x effects to deal with stuff TNN and friends.

As i already mentioned earlier (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28759-Sylvan-Plug-%28or-whatever-splashed-Green-stompy%29&p=852928&viewfull=1#post852928); i recommend a 2nd Knight (it reads: 1 more Karakas against Show&Tell) and 1 Karakas Main (Show&Tell and it also supports Titania or get rid of other legends if needed) - if you dig deeper in white, 1 Siege Rhino should also be a real slot, because i expected TNN will be back soon. With this in mind (and you will also see more Elves after TC-Ban) i still prefer my 2x Toxic Deluge Main over any cute Rolling Spoil Tech.

The only adjustments i would made to my last build (TC-Meta); Side -1 Krosan Grip; -1 Maze (was usefull against UR) +2 Containment Priest; and i already filled the Flexslot with 1 Tower of the Magistrate against Stoneblade and D&T.

My current testbuild also contains 1 Crucible of Worlds over the 4th Trinisphere; Wastelands are back and you can fight them back or even win with your own Wastelands if you catch some opponent offguard

@Tibalt Congratulation!

As you can see i already use 1 Ooze at Main (and also a 2nd Courser!); i recommend the Bojuka Bog at Side (i have a 2nd Knight Main) against Dredge, Lands etc. but i feel that ravenous trap over Faerie Macabre is a "trap" (:wink:); Faerie is free (even under Sphere) and let you fight reanimator.decks better than ravenous trap. Sure - trap is better against Dredge and maybe loam-engines, but Bojuka Bog, Ooze (and maybe Containment Priest) can also do a lot of work agains Grave-Combos with Creatures.

Barook

01-27-2015, 11:53 AM

As i already mentioned earlier (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28759-Sylvan-Plug-%28or-whatever-splashed-Green-stompy%29&p=852928&viewfull=1#post852928); i recommend a 2nd Knight (it reads: 1 more Karakas against Show&Tell) and 1 Karakas Main (Show&Tell and it also supports Titania or get rid of other legends if needed) - if you dig deeper in white, 1 Siege Rhino should also be a real slot, because i expected TNN will be back soon. With this in mind (and you will also see more Elves after TC-Ban) i still prefer my 2x Toxic Deluge Main over any cute Rolling Spoil Tech.

The only adjustments i would made to my last build (TC-Meta); Side -1 Krosan Grip; -1 Maze (was usefull against UR) +2 Containment Priest; and i already filled the Flexslot with 1 Tower of the Magistrate against Stoneblade and D&T.

My current testbuild also contains 1 Crucible of Worlds over the 4th Trinisphere; Wastelands are back and you can fight them back or even win with your own Wastelands if you catch some opponent offguard

@Tibalt Congratulation!

As you can see i already use 1 Ooze at Main (and also a 2nd Courser!); i recommend the Bojuka Bog at Side (i have a 2nd Knight Main) against Dredge, Lands etc. but i feel that ravenous trap over Faerie Macabre is a "trap" (:wink:); Faerie is free (even under Sphere) and let you fight reanimator.decks better than ravenous trap. Sure - trap is better against Dredge and maybe loam-engines, but Bojuka Bog, Ooze (and maybe Containment Priest) can also do a lot of work agains Grave-Combos with Creatures.
Second KotR + MD Karakas certainly sounds good. Similiar to Courser, you do want a second copy as back-up. I still dig the idea of running Punishing Fire more over going deeper into white for stuff like Rhino, though. I hope I can start testing at the ending of next week. At that point, we should also have more data how blue the meta is going to stay.

CoW does sound better than Loam for this deck, simply because you don't have to invest further mana into using it afterwards and it can't dredge keycards away.

Do people start to prefer Toxic Deluge over Spoil now? As a sweeper, it sure is kinda clunky to use in certain match-ups due to its :1::b::g::g: casting cost when in sweeper mode.

Isn't Containment Priest counter-productive with Arbor and GSZ?

Kyle

01-28-2015, 01:46 AM

Went 3-0 in my local weekly (very small tournaments, meta is sometimes silly, sometimes really hard). Split for first but played for fun anyway R3 and won that for funsies match. I'm playing a GBW list mostly identical to Qweerios' list from a few months ago. I love this color combination.

Report:

------------

R1 - Burn

G1 - Chalice on 1, Trinisphere, and Siege Rhino FTW. Courser of Kruphix helped me keep my life nicely managed and hit some necessary land-drops.

G2 - Lather, rinse, repeat. He sided in Smash to Smithereens which hit my Chalice on 1, but I landed a Trinisphere and then Siege Rhino FTW, plus Thragtusk sided in just in case, which I didn't end up needing or casting.

1-0

------------

R2 - Patriot Stoneblade Midrange

G1 - An early unanswered Chalice on 1 followed my Trinisphere allowed me to develop my board, plus the Abrupt Decays for resolved Stoneforge Mystics, Vindicate for Jace, and Rolling Spoil for Clique and TNN. The first match was quite grindy, but with my active Sylvan Library I was able to draw the stuff I needed every turn, such as the maindeck Choke.

G2 - Chalice on 1, and then Vindicate and Rolling Spoil on lands prevented him from developing his board. At one point he killed my Chalice with a Wear//Tear, but it didn't set me back too much. I knew he was going to bring in Blood Moons, and he was cracking his fetches for basics, so I played it safe and kept GB up just in case. Choke got Forced and I was able to drop a Trinisphere, and he was locked on 2 lands for the rest of the game.

2-0

------------

R3 - Patriot Stoneblade Delver

G1 - Early Delver got me down to 10, but I was able to land a Trinisphere, then Decay the Delver. Then a Choke. With some well-timed Dazes he was able to get some blue mana back after the resolved Choke in order to get a TNN online. The Trinisphere allowed me to get a Titania online (which is awesome on paper, no pun intended). His TNN knocked me down to 3, but I was holding up a Rolling Spoil and he was effectively tapped out to prevent countering it, so I was able to kill his TNN and Titania plus 4 5/3 tokens would get me there in a turn or two.

G2 - Even though this was the last game of the night, I don't remember much of it other than that it started similarly with an early Delver which got me down to around 10 life, but my lockdown pieces (Chalice on 1 and Trinisphere) helped me get there on the back of some Siege Rhinos.

------------

All in all, it's tough to say what is an "all-star," because I feel the entire deck is full of them. I just about always want to play everything in the deck. If I had to choose, I'd say it's mos-def our favorite enabler Sylvan Library. I also feel it's better in this archetype because of Courser of Kruphix.

A quick note on Titania: it is possibly the coolest tech, but I think it warrants more testing as it may be win-more.

Lastly, I never needed the RIPs, but in a wide-open meta, I think it's necessary.

Here's my (Qweerios') list for anyone interested:

CREATURES:
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Siege Rhino
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

INSTANTS/SORCERIES
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Vindicate
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Rolling Spoil

ENCHANTMENTS:
3 Sylvan Library
1 Choke

ARTIFACTS:
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

LANDS:
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Forest

SIDEBOARD:
2 Rolling Spoil
2 Rest in Peace
2 Null Rod
1 Karakas
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
2 Choke
1 Krosan Grip
1 Zealous Persecution

FrankEGee88

01-28-2015, 02:54 PM

Here's my (Qweerios') list for anyone interested:

CREATURES:
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Siege Rhino
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

INSTANTS/SORCERIES
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Vindicate
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Rolling Spoil

ENCHANTMENTS:
3 Sylvan Library
1 Choke

ARTIFACTS:
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

LANDS:
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Forest

SIDEBOARD:
2 Rolling Spoil
2 Rest in Peace
2 Null Rod
1 Karakas
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
2 Choke
1 Krosan Grip
1 Zealous Persecution

So, while I really like siege rhino with the way the meta is shaping up to be, I'm not quite sure I like what he makes us do to the manabase. Specifically he makes the sol lands really clunky. Same thing with vindicate.

Barook

01-28-2015, 10:31 PM

So, while I really like siege rhino with the way the meta is shaping up to be, I'm not quite sure I like what he makes us do to the manabase. Specifically he makes the sol lands really clunky. Same thing with vindicate.
I'll try to run a third Mox and replace a Tomb with a Karakas. Between two Savannahs, Fetches, Karakas, DRS and 3 Moxen, there should be enough white to cover 2 KotR and 3 Rhinos since 9 white sources are required to run it smooth (probably less due to GSZ, but better be save than sorry). I'm not a fan of Vindicate in conjunction with Sol Lands, though. I'll probably think of a Gbw list later once I have the numbers down since I want to try out 4 Wastelands + 1 CoW for an additional lock angle.

Edit: Has anybody ever considered Abundance? Sure, it is expensive, so, I'm not sure if it's worth it, but can also help to generate card quality. Combine it with Library and you get a brutal draw engine of pure gas since replacing all draws with Abundance prevents putting the cards back on the library.

lilevo

01-30-2015, 10:46 AM

Vicar in a tutu

01-30-2015, 05:31 PM

Barook

01-31-2015, 01:56 PM

They haven't posted the daily events results from the dailies I have played this week but we 4-0'd an event every day of this week, the list we have been playing is David's (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-wbg-16758#online) list from the IQ -1 Thragtusk in the boad +1 Ooze. The games have also been very entertaining, if you like this deck of course :P here is a link of the recorded videos.

http://www.twitch.tv/romariovidal/profile/past_broadcasts
How's the current online meta? Is it still as blue as before the bans?

If GY decks are such a problem, why don't we just run Rest in Peace in place of the Fairies/Traps? It only impacts us minimal (DRS, KotR, Titania) where you really want to bring them in while they're getting destroyed by it.

Edit: What's our plan against Shardless BUG? Mana denial is so-so since they pack both DRS and AD, they run Jace and Liliana, plus they bury you in card advantage.

Lejay

01-31-2015, 10:35 PM

Edit: Has anybody ever considered Abundance? Sure, it is expensive, so, I'm not sure if it's worth it, but can also help to generate card quality. Combine it with Library and you get a brutal draw engine of pure gas since replacing all draws with Abundance prevents putting the cards back on the library.
Abundance has been discussed at the beginning even though I never actually tested it. I said that among all card advantage possibilities / combos with sylvan I could add to improve grindy or control match-ups it was the clear choice and that if someone proposes that kind of card it should be better than abundance. I specified that I didn't want to play it because it serves a purpose which isn't a real consideration for this deck. Your control match-ups are already extremely good without it so improving those with a 4 mana card that isn't great alone just isn't interesting. The sylvan/courser interaction is very different since it provides a blocker for agressive match-ups and courser is quite good alone.

How's the current online meta? Is it still as blue as before the bans?

If GY decks are such a problem, why don't we just run Rest in Peace in place of the Fairies/Traps? It only impacts us minimal (DRS, KotR, Titania) where you really want to bring them in while they're getting destroyed by it.

Edit: What's our plan against Shardless BUG? Mana denial is so-so since they pack both DRS and AD, they run Jace and Liliana, plus they bury you in card advantage.

Online meta seems about as blue as it was.

Once again it has been discussed in the thread. I went against rip because if the deck can reach two mana for it, that means I could land a chalice or teeg that does a lot versus storm or reanimator. So I want something that helps me save enough time to land chalice or another prison piece (trinisphere or GSZ at 2 are very good versus dredge also) that will very often win the game.

I didn't think about the shardless match-up at all since it wasn't a consideration in previous metagame. I don't think it will change the decklist, but since there should be a rise in these and BUG delver it's possible to test RIP for that matter. I'd need more test without it against those to find if it's needed.

lilevo

02-01-2015, 12:09 PM

Yesterday was the first time I played against Shardless BUG since the banning and also the first time playing Sylvan Plug I lost 2-1, I drew a grand total of 1 abrupt decay in all 3 games even with Sylvan Library and I lost to goyf. I think the MU is good like any other blue based deck DRS can be a pain since it makes some of our mana denial a little worse.

Barook

02-06-2015, 07:21 PM

andrewimperial

02-09-2015, 04:36 AM

Curious how you felt about a list like this with a little more of a white splash added in. Anafenza seems like a good greensun target against control decks and also graveyard decks like dredge/griselbrand decks, also prety cool you can start pumping up your dryad arbor out of nowhere. Joined this forum just to post an ask some opinions. Maybe even another Knight in the main would be goo here, I kind of want to drop the 2 rolling spoils for a crucible and another knight. Looking for some opinions on what people think about a list like this.

Edit: Also really curious how you feel about 1 tasigur in this deck. His ability seems really useful, sucks hes not gren for gsz but sttill seems like he has a spot in this deck.

1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Obstinate Baloth
2 Siedge Rhino
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Dryad Arbor

2 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Swamp
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Mox Diamond
4 Trinisphere
2 Choke
3 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Rolling Spoil
Sideboard

1 Faerie Macabe
1 Giant Solifuge
1 Kalonian Hydra
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Spike Weaver
1 Stingerfling Spider
1 Thragtusk
1 Choke
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Massacre
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Tower of the Magistrate
2 Anafenza, The Foremost

MD.Ghost

02-09-2015, 05:02 AM

Anybody else got test results on Crucible of Worlds yet? So far, I like it alot to the point where I might add a second one. It's CA with fetchlands, enables further mana development and, most imporantly, the Wastelock is pretty silly in lots of match-ups, especially with Trinisphere.

Edit: After facing alot of BUG decks today which are back in force, DRS feels kinda subpar. Due the amount of enemy DRS you face, it more a glorified, starved Squire instead of the 1-mana pseudo Planeswalker powerhouse we know. But other options to replace him seem pretty meager, too.

I still like Crucible of Worlds as a 1off, it isn't needed every matchup but sometimes it feels really good to get some lands back or wasteland someone out of the game.

BUG on the rise:
Bad News: Decay; Gofy; Wastelands combined are good against Stompy Decks
Good News: This Stompy Decks run Baloth which works also nice against Hymn/Liliana

I wouldn't cut the 1off DRS, besides BUG he is still good and against BUG you can also prevent enemy Deathrite Action with Chalice&Co - sure they can sneak in 1cc Creatures before you can deploy Chalice&Co, but this deck also run some amount of removal (my version: 4 decay, 2 toxic, 1 garruk relentless main to fight them back)

-----------
@Tasigur: I like him and try him in many different decks but haven't done a test with him in sylvan plug yet. He can't be tutored via Zenith and still is "only" a dump beater - but he can stop Gofy, dodges Decay (Deluge) - about Delve: the problem is, this deck can support him, but the yard will most of the time contain only lands or countered/destroyed permanents - removing lands will shrink Knights and affect Titania, Crucible - his ability isn't so good here because you opponent can give you some "situationally not needed" permanents etc. // Conclusion: Maybe he works in the BG Version, but with White you have more better options avaible anyway.

Barook

02-09-2015, 12:42 PM

I still like Crucible of Worlds as a 1off, it isn't needed every matchup but sometimes it feels really good to get some lands back or wasteland someone out of the game.

BUG on the rise:
Bad News: Decay; Gofy; Wastelands combined are good against Stompy Decks
Good News: This Stompy Decks run Baloth which works also nice against Hymn/Liliana

I wouldn't cut the 1off DRS, besides BUG he is still good and against BUG you can also prevent enemy Deathrite Action with Chalice&Co - sure they can sneak in 1cc Creatures before you can deploy Chalice&Co, but this deck also run some amount of removal (my version: 4 decay, 2 toxic, 1 garruk relentless main to fight them back)

-----------
@Tasigur: I like him and try him in many different decks but haven't done a test with him in sylvan plug yet. He can't be tutored via Zenith and still is "only" a dump beater - but he can stop Gofy, dodges Decay (Deluge) - about Delve: the problem is, this deck can support him, but the yard will most of the time contain only lands or countered/destroyed permanents - removing lands will shrink Knights and affect Titania, Crucible - his ability isn't so good here because you opponent can give you some "situationally not needed" permanents etc. // Conclusion: Maybe he works in the BG Version, but with White you have more better options avaible anyway.
I like the match-up against BUG Delver - they're slower than UR Delver and give us enough time to establish our board. Shardless BUG is a whole different beast due to the CA they pack.

About Tasigur: Between Fetches, Moxes and Sol lands, we might be able to run him. His body is decent, he's another critter prove to Bolt and Decay and he adds something into his little package that we currently lack: Recursion. It might give us another nice angle for grinding out the opponent. But only testing can determine that.

I'm currently rocking the following list.

http://i.imgur.com/jdBIrsk.jpg

I added another two Karakas to the board since I loathe losing to Griselbrand. Didn't face any deck since the change, though. I'm also tempted to run 2-3 Rest in Peace just for the hell of it in the board, since we can just switch out our GY dependent threats against non-dependent ones from the SB. Seems way better than running all that clunky GY hate cards as bandaids. Question is what to cut for it. Ooze is tutorable, but rarely impressed me, especially as a GY hate card. I also question the use of Spiderfling Spider. It won't do jackshit against reanimation or Sneak Attack and Delver is less of a concern now witht he UR variant nerfed.

Another Deluge in the board would be nice, too.

lilevo

02-09-2015, 02:30 PM

How's the current online meta? Is it still as blue as before the bans?

If GY decks are such a problem, why don't we just run Rest in Peace in place of the Fairies/Traps? It only impacts us minimal (DRS, KotR, Titania) where you really want to bring them in while they're getting destroyed by it.

Edit: What's our plan against Shardless BUG? Mana denial is so-so since they pack both DRS and AD, they run Jace and Liliana, plus they bury you in card advantage.

I didn't see this question until now, faerie doesn't get countered and works around trinisphere, also this additions might be David overreacting to losing twice to dredge (his only two losses) at the IQ :tongue:

We made two modifications in the board -1 massacre +1 go for the throat, the reason for this swap is because we have seen more Goyfs being played and less D & T. In the main deck we -1 Courser for +1 Eternal Witness, so far it's been good, at first I was a little skeptical about e witness but in a deck playing 4 GSZ I think it's fine to play so many 1 of's green creatures.

andrewimperial

02-09-2015, 03:07 PM

I added another two Karakas to the board since I loathe losing to Griselbrand.

How do you feel about Anafenza in this spot? as I posted in my list a few spots up I felt like maining a Karakas and some more white sources and siding in 2 Anafenza against the grave matches.

Barook

02-09-2015, 03:23 PM

How do you feel about Anafenza in this spot? as I posted in my list a few spots up I felt like maining a Karakas and some more white sources and siding in 2 Anafenza against the grave matches.
Tripple color seems pretty taxing both in color and mana cost if you ask me, even if it's GSZable. I would rather try to have RiP online on T2 (or maybe even T1 with Mox).

I would ralso prefer RiP to blank Goyf and DRS while I bash in their head with Hydra and Baloths. Still finding the slots to fit it in is going to be a bitch.

Edit: I just noticed the interaction between Weaver and Anafenza. Not as good as Hydra, but still interesting.

@lilevo: Especially with CoW in the MD, I could see cutting a Courser for Witness, even though the double life gain and having a back-up is nice. CoW and Courser kinda compete in the "generate CA via land drops" slot.

Edit #2: Screw it, I'm going in deep:

-1 Bojuka Bog
-1 Ooze
-1 Trinsphere
-1 Choke
-1 Spider
+2 Enlightened Tutor
+2 Rest in Peace
+1 Oblivion Ring

Let's see how that goes.

First match was against Dredge. :laugh: He lost terribly twice due to Rest in Peace. Felt especially good after he wasted two Nature's Claim in G2 on irrelevant junk because he never saw it coming. I might have to make slight adjustments for the increased white account post-boarding, but additional Karakas should already help with that.
I'm aware that Tutor + CotV @1 is a nonbo, but it might be worth the risk. Between multiple Karakas + KotRs to fetch them + E-Tutor for O-Ring, we might stand a better chance against all those annoying, flying fatties.

andrewimperial

02-09-2015, 06:45 PM

The spike weaver interaction is actually pretty cute lol.

I still feel one of anafenza might be useful. You just GSZ her out and it should be a huge surprise factor. She to some extent functions as a containment priest would without shutting your plays. I can see how drawing her in your opening hand she might seem rough to cast.

I'm putting my version of the deck together in real life today for play testing. Still kind of want to add a tasigur.

ESG

02-09-2015, 09:24 PM

I still feel one of anafenza might be useful. You just GSZ her out and it should be a huge surprise factor. She to some extent functions as a containment priest would without shutting your plays. I can see how drawing her in your opening hand she might seem rough to cast.

Why would you play Anafenza when Scavenging Ooze exists?

Barook

02-10-2015, 03:31 PM

Played a few more games today. First impression of me is that O-Ring is pretty good.

andrewimperial

02-13-2015, 03:40 AM

MD.Ghost

02-13-2015, 05:58 AM

Finished the deck today and was play testing. Rolling spoil felt particularly bad, even in the match ups i thought it would be good in. Knight at two was amazing, also felt like i wanted a GSZ target that was 2cmc a lot so if their is something good in the mainboard slot maybe i should add that, just not sure what card yet.

Gonna be fun testing some more.

Glad to read that you like the double-knight idea (sadly decays are back after tc ban), for GSZ with 2cmc i always used a Scavenging Ooze and Qasali Pridgemage, because both worked good with Zenith + Trinisphere (or Ancient Tomb + Green Land etc.). Ooze is still very useable to fight graveyard strategies, deathrites, gofys etc and Pridemage can also be a better or spend exalted if you attack with a Baloth against the common 4/5 Gofy etc, or trick someone with eot fetch for arbor and than play pridemage and attack for 2 (i killed jace this way back in the days i played elves with a white splash).

After the TC ban i spended my time to play and improve my other decks, but i still watch over the discussion here, because decks that try to fight the overall blue legacy meta.

Barook

02-13-2015, 06:37 AM

Finished the deck today and was play testing. Rolling spoil felt particularly bad, even in the match ups i thought it would be good in. Knight at two was amazing, also felt like i wanted a GSZ target that was 2cmc a lot so if their is something good in the mainboard slot maybe i should add that, just not sure what card yet.

Gonna be fun testing some more.
I run two Knights as well and I'm quite satisfied with it. It provides good utility and is decent beater. Two let's you draw it more often naturally (which isn't a bad thing) and it gives you a back-up when they can remove it.

Rolling Spoil was cute tech, but with DRS and Goyf in the picture instead of hordes of URX's X/1 hordes, I would rather have Toxic Deluge as reliable sweeper instead of gimmicky LD. So I'm running 2 Deluge in the MD now and like it alot.

This deck (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/263980#online) also placed in a daily recently. I'm not entirely sold on completely removing MD Chokes for the online meta since it's still 79% blue decks despite the TC ban (budget reasons to due Wasteland's price maybe? :eyebrow: ). The list also ran MD Deluges, 2 KotRs and a CoW, which I agree with. Running Siege Rhinos is debatable.

andrewimperial

02-13-2015, 03:41 PM

I run two Knights as well and I'm quite satisfied with it. It provides good utility and is decent beater. Two let's you draw it more often naturally (which isn't a bad thing) and it gives you a back-up when they can remove it.

Rolling Spoil was cute tech, but with DRS and Goyf in the picture instead of hordes of URX's X/1 hordes, I would rather have Toxic Deluge as reliable sweeper instead of gimmicky LD. So I'm running 2 Deluge in the MD now and like it alot.

This deck (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/263980#online) also placed in a daily recently. I'm not entirely sold on completely removing MD Chokes for the online meta since it's still 79% blue decks despite the TC ban (budget reasons to due Wasteland's price maybe? :eyebrow: ). The list also ran MD Deluges, 2 KotRs and a CoW, which I agree with. Running Siege Rhinos is debatable.

I originally wanted to run rhino but cut it because its way to akward to cast at times and if you're casting it off an ancient tomb you lose so much value, baloth is just much better, i was running 2 coursers in my build but I think il add a thragtusk. Also considering adding maybe a sylvan caratyid or some sort of 2 drop gsz target. I like the toxic deluge but they seem painful. I think ill try 1 maelstrom pulse, 1 deluge, seeing as how most the time with trinispheere in playing abrupt decay is just uncounterable maelstrom pulse. Also tempted to add gofy or gofys just because I own them and in the miracle match up my clock is way 2 slow letting them sometimes grab a win.

Barook

02-14-2015, 02:00 AM

I originally wanted to run rhino but cut it because its way to akward to cast at times and if you're casting it off an ancient tomb you lose so much value, baloth is just much better, i was running 2 coursers in my build but I think il add a thragtusk. Also considering adding maybe a sylvan caratyid or some sort of 2 drop gsz target. I like the toxic deluge but they seem painful. I think ill try 1 maelstrom pulse, 1 deluge, seeing as how most the time with trinispheere in playing abrupt decay is just uncounterable maelstrom pulse. Also tempted to add gofy or gofys just because I own them and in the miracle match up my clock is way 2 slow letting them sometimes grab a win.
Toxic Deluge is only painful if you have to clear big Goyfs. Otherwise, you rarely have to pay more than 2 life to wipe the board.

I'm not too sure if you're going to be happy with Goyf. Sometimes it gets big due to us running enchantments and artifacts, but that depends alot on the opponent.

If you really wanted a 2-drop, I would rather run Pridemage in that slot.

And I encourage people to try out the E-Tutor board with RiP and O-Ring.

Edit:
After some further testing, I cut one of my two SB Karakas to make room for my third Deluge (aside from the two MD ones). Karakas might be nice against Reanimator and Sneak & Show, but I haven't faced any of those decks recently and according to Goldfish, their combined appearence is below 10%. Toxic Deluge is just an All-Star against all kinds of creature-based decks and often MVP. It also brings the list back to the original 5 sweepers postboard.

While I like having two CoWs in the deck, I went back to a 3/1 split between Choke/CoW. The meta is still too cancerous blue to afford cutting down on Choke too much and I don't have the MD space for a second CoW.

E-Tutor still needs more testing to determine its value. If things don't work out, I could easily go to -2 E-Tutor, +1 Ooze, +1 O-Ring (yes, it is that nice).

Barook

02-20-2015, 06:17 AM

Sorry for the double post, but a little update:

Even with Karakas and RiP, Reanimator is an uphill battle. RiP is often too slow when they're going first or they have AD/bounce to punch through it. Karakas doesn't help much when they draw lots of cards with Griselbrand and dump something like Grave Titan into the yard.

I'll try out -2 E-Tutor -2 RiP +4 Leyline if the Void instead. Still awesome against Dredge and uncounterable GY hate against Reanimator that catches everything (and in the online meta, they typically run only 2 bounce spells and no S&T in the board; their AD does nothing against it). Might make Ooze and requirement against, but I can't find slots to fit it in unless I go to 61 cards in the MD.

How do people feel about Kalonian Hydra now? Especially after with the double KotR/Toxic Deluge configuration, I rarely feel like fetching it up. The combo with Spike Weaver is cute, but how often do you realistically pull it off? Depending on the board state, Titania + an active KotR can easily add 20-25 power on the board after she enters play to end the game right in the next turn.

ironclad8690

02-25-2015, 07:53 PM

Barook

02-26-2015, 10:22 AM

Hey guys, I am new to this deck, and I was wondering if you guys could help me with a few cards in the sideboard. I tried skimming the primer and posts in the forums but I could not find the specifics of what I was looking for.

First off, I am shamelessly copying Lejay's latest list:

2 Dryad Arbor
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Obstinate Baloth
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Rolling Spoil
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Mox Diamond
3 Trinisphere

4 Choke
4 Sylvan Library

3 Ancient Tomb
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Giant Solifuge
1 Kalonian Hydra
1 Karakas
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Massacre
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Spike Weaver
1 Tower of the Magistrate
2 Toxic Deluge

I was wondering what matchups Giant Solifuge, Kalonian Hydra, and Spike Weaver were for in the sideboard. What kind of cards are you guys replacing when you bring them in?

Thanks!
For comparison, my current list (http://i.imgur.com/eXfJY0V.jpg).

Lejay's list is a good starting point, but a few things to add:

- the meta is less aggressive, so you can get away with 2 Baloths. I would run another KotR instead since it's a very powerful card in this deck
- Rolling Spoil was cute during the TC, but with Goyf, DRS and friends being back with a vengeance, Toxic Deluge is so much better (and less taxing on the mana - :1::g::g::b: - c'mon guys). Accidently, it also solves flipped Delvers.

As for sideboard, while I wasn't initially a fan of Giant Solifuge, it has grown to like it. It's good against combo and control decks (where you need to gib their Planeswalkers).

Spike Weaver is pretty good against anything which relies on attack damage to win.

I do question the inclusion of the Kalonian Hydra, though. The combo with Weaver is good, but it has never come up for me. And I basically never fetched for it by itself.

ironclad8690

03-03-2015, 01:26 AM

Went 2-0-1 in my local this week. This deck rules! Played lejay's latest daily list, but I only own 3 sylvan libraries and no massacres, so I put drown and sorrow in their place and obstinate baloth 3 in the spot of library 4 because I am a timmy at heart.

Round 1 beat miracles because of choke games 1 and 2.

Round 2 beat uwr blade in 3. Game I lost had TNN with a skull on it, games I won because of rolling spoil and choke, with help from deluge.

Round 3 vs Maverick early thalia + teeg keeps me off zenith and i am overrun. Game 2 was grindy, but kalonian and spike weaver lock it up. Game 3 we went to time, but he had a containment priest and i was a little mana screwed with tower of the magistrate, wasteland, forest and swamp out (knight, baloth, and courser in hand). I was not expecting priest, so i fetched a swamp thinking gsz-drs would let me cast the stuff in my hand, but priest stopped me.

Great run though, and I will definitely keep playing the deck as long as brainstorm is legal.

Lejay

03-03-2015, 02:26 AM

Barook

03-03-2015, 08:12 AM

I didn't play the deck in a while so I tried several changes proposed by barook. Oblivion x2 with 2 savannah cutting my pulse and my sb trinisphere to improve show and tell match-ups (especially sneak show) was the idea i liked the most even though it hasn't been relevant in the daily.
I had 1 rolling 1 deluge in the end of cruise era and was planning on going back to 2x spoil with the ban. I kept the split after barook's post, but mainly to save a sideboard slot for the third leyline. Sb ghost quarter compensates the loss of the second spoil in the 75. I think it's a really good card in this deck and not just to replace tomb versus burn. It is probably worthwhile exploring a build with 4 mox diamonds, 4 ghost quarter, upping the land count and cutting tombs down to 0-1.
I prefer running 1 knight 3 baloth though and keeping the three forests.
I prefer 2 KotR/2 Baloth split. Not having a 4th basic hasn't been an issue for me so far since most of the deck is operational at 3 mana already. And KotR is a much higher impact card compared to Baloth imho.

I've tried 3 Moxen with 24 lands before and wasn't exactly a fan of it. Each Moxen also increases the number of dead draws.

If you want to go deeper into Ghost Quarter territory, wouldn't running at least 2 KotR to fetch it be beneficial? Such a build would certainly benefit from CoW as well for the Strip Mine lock. As always, space is tight, but I'd love to hear the results.

How has Leyline of the Void been so far? I'd like to run a combo between LotV, 1 DRS and 1 Ooze to cover the full spectrum of hate, but as it stands right now, Ooze is my 61st MD card which isn't ideal.

I know it's the danger of cool things, but if Leyline works, we could consider Helm of Obedience as SB tech for the combo kill and as troll card against decks bringing RiP in against us. We do have the mana base to power out the combo at a reasonable pace, but it's questionable if and where it's worth it.

Lejay

03-03-2015, 06:51 PM

Yes of course a build with 4 Mox and quarters would be quite different. I probably won't try that as I work on other decks in legacy and focus on modern atm.
Leyline was nice. I was happy with just 3+1 sb ooze.

Barook

03-03-2015, 07:54 PM

Leyline was nice. I was happy with just 3+1 sb ooze.
Against what decks did you use Leyline so far? I don't like the thought of trying to mull for Leyline with only 3 in the deck against stuff like Reanimator or Dredge.

And I can't emphasize enough how good Toxic Deluge is. It just wins me so many games where I had no business winning. Thus, I find your split with Rolling Spoil is rather odd. I do think that having more creature removal/quality sweepers available is more important than (basic) land destruction. But maybe that's just a difference in playstyle.

If you really want to expand the LD aspect of the game, I would rather look at your suggestion of Ghost Quarter. 1-2 GQ with 2 CoW (I'm a fan, but space is the main issue for me to run the second copy), 4 Wastelands and Knight support could be very strong. GQ obviously eats into the Ancient Tomb slots. Cutting 1 Tomb might work, but things might get iffy if more are cut. And I don't think cutting into Wasteland slots for more GQs is a good idea, although I might be wrong.

Lejay

03-03-2015, 08:52 PM

Just reanimator against which I opened two in the opening. I said leyline is nice, it's not certain it's the best choice though. The faerie/trap split can be discarded but it has another big advantage over leylines. Your opponent will commit ressources into doing something that is bound to fail. This is especially true against storm. If they have a turn1-2 win they will go for it, and if they have the choice between AdN and PiF they will go for the safe route and die on your hate. With leylines you lose that.
That said I am fine with 3. You don't mull to it, you mull to a decent hand. Against storm or reanimator turn 1 chalice is perfectly fine. Against dredge and reanimator T1 drs or an early ooze are as well.
When you have other good cards for graveyard match-ups going all in on four leylines isn't mandatory at all. I have played every number of leylines in decks from 0 to 4.

Rolling spoil does two things and toxic does one. Toxic deals damage to you and you run tomb + sylvan library, that is very relevant.

Running a rolling spoil doesn't mean I want to increase the LD destruction aspect of the deck, it's just that once you have four chokes and 4 wasteland the RS completes the strategy while providing an answer to TNN.

I don't think cutting tombs for GQ is a good thing. I was talking about a four mox diamond build and it's the mox diamonds which would take tomb's slots.

ironclad8690

03-07-2015, 08:41 PM

yesterday I kept this hand against a 4c Delver deck and got punished hard. Would you guys keep this hand against a known Delver opponent?

1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Choke
1 Trinisphere
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Wasteland

I figured at least it had a permanent mana source in the forest, and I felt like even if a spell gets dazed and a spell gets forced at least I still get to resolve something good. I sequenced my plays as such: turn 3 trinisphere (dazed), Turn 4 Courser (decayed) and then turn 5 Choke, but he had a true name and a deathrite and I couldn't really climb back even with a titania.

I am just trying to get a feel of what hands are mulligans and what hands are keeps, and I have never really played a stompy shell before.

Barook

03-08-2015, 04:03 AM

You had no action before T3, which is pretty terrible. I'm not expert regarding mulligans, but I try to get at least something going against my opponent on T2 at the latest.

On a different note:
I cut one Leyline for a second Banishing Light in the SB. I like the O-Ring effect and found myself siding it in as extra removal quite often, so 2 copies seems like a good number.

And I still question Kalonion Hydra - is it really better than other non-GY-dependent finishers, e.g. Sigarda? I know there's the combo with Weaver, but to me, that's rather Magical Christmasland than actually coming up often.

pettdan

03-08-2015, 09:39 AM

I only just started to play the deck and I've started with Barook's latest posted list from Feb 9th. So my comments are based on very limited experience. But I like the deck and think it deserves a more active discussion therefore I'll post.

I'm playing Barook's list with maindeck +1 Deluge (3), +1 Thragtusk, +1 Sc.Ooze and -1 Trini, -1 CoW, -1 Courser. I'm playing against a lot of mid range and creature based decks, that's why I have 3 Deluges main, 1 in the board and 2 Massacres in the board. Trini mostly seems relevant vs the combo decks so I have a third copy in the board. To up the number in the main I would add some land destruction (Ghost Quarters or Rolling Spoils). I had some games where it seemed like I was just playing Coursers, Sylvans and Crucibles, not managing to interact much. So I've added a sweeper and life gaining power creatures. Tusk is good vs planeswalkers, Ooze is good vs the gy strategies. While also gaining life and being good beaters, adding to the pressure and strategy of the deck.

Also I feel like I'm hedging by adding a Deluge to the main - playing plenty of Chalice, Choke and Trinisphere makes it easy to die to a t1 Delver, t2 Mystic or a t3 TNN. In the matchups where Chalice/Choke/Trini are great (Combo/Control and in general blue decks) the Deluge is usually less relevant. In the other matchups Deluge is king (non-blue creature based decks). So with this reasoning playing 4 Choke and 4 Toxic Deluge in the main actually seems like a good plan to me. May even try that eventually, for now just changing the numbers by +/-1.

I'm thinking that the Hydra seems better than the Weaver. Toxic Deluge and the life gaining creatures all play similar roles to that of the Spike Weaver. Stop a hoard of creatures, or postpone dying to them. The Weaver seems like it would be valuable vs Elves and Sneak and Show but Toxic Deluge does a similar thing vs Elves (and to some extent SnT) but 1-2 turns quicker, and the Weaver doesn't protect vs Emrakul. I can only see myself boarding the Weaver if I'm also boarding the Hydra. Weaver gives you three turns (not counting on the Hydra interaction), Hydra wins in two. So my reasoning is to avoid Weaver if not playing Hydra, rather play Deluges and Baloth/Thrag/Courser/Ooze. While Hydra looks really good vs any deck with problems removing it (non-white decks I suppose, especially BUG variants), or as a 5 mana high pressure threat vs any control deck. I think I would have used the Weaver if it had answered S&T Emrakul, but it doesn't.

Regarding sideboarding, this is my current SB:

1 Toxic Deluge
2 Massacre
1 Giant Solifuge
1 Null Rod
1 Krosan Grip
1 Trinisphere
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Choke
1 Qasali Pridemage

1 Kalonian Hydra
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Rolling Spoils

The last four/five I'm contemplating changing.
- Spoils are good with the Trini/Chalice/Choke package vs combo and control decks, and the sweeping ability can be good too. So it has a lot of relevance.
- With an Ooze and a Deathrite in the main I may settle for one Leyline in the SB. And once it's a one off it seems like an option to try to add 1 Enlightened Tutor and replace Leyline with a RiP.
- The Hydra is added offense but I'm not sure if it's needed.
- May add a Choke when I get it, sometimes it ends the game when it's played but often it doesn't. So I'm pretty happy with 3.

I'm wondering if Marsh Casualties could replace one of the Massacres. It can also sweep toughness two, it isn't prevented by Gaddock (relevant vs Elves), it's an instant and can be cast in response to Rishadan Port... I don't know.

I'm not liking Oblivion Ring because I don't like that someone can destroy my destruction. It may very well be worth it, but I prefer the Grip (uncounterable) and Qasali (GSZ-able). If dealing with creatures I'm preferring the sweepers, if dealing with planeswalkers I'm trying the Tusk/Solifuge, if dealing with artifacts I'm trying the Sage/Qasali/Grip/Rod. I would probably try a second Grip before an Oblivion Ring.

Ghost Quarters seem very interesting btw, would like to test with 2-3 CoW and 6-8 wastelands cutting back on Chokes I guess.

Barook

03-08-2015, 11:40 AM

RiP + E-Tutor didn't work as well as I expected it to work, that's why I switched to Leylines.

Your criticism about O-Ring kinda misses the main point of its inclusion - getting more answers for S&T. O-Ring just has the benefit of hitting alot of other stuff as well. It being destroyed sucks, but that has rarely come up for me so far.

A third MD Deluge is something I could see being worth running, but as always, slots are premium, and I still don't know how to feel about drawing multiples post-board.

The main problem I see with Marsh Casualties is being forced to grab :b::b: to cast it. Massacre has an alternate cast mode and Deluge costs only one :b:.

pettdan

03-08-2015, 12:30 PM

Thanks for your comments!

Regarding my disliking for Oblivion Ring, I realize it is mostly a personal bias (regarding removable removal). It certainly is quite good vs S&T. I rarely play against that deck nowadays, so the KotR + Karakas + Gaddock + (the corner cases where the following are relevant) Sage + Titania + Deluge will do for now.

Yes, possible cheaper cost of Massacre probably makes it worthwile. It just can get frustrating when playing the creature based non-white decks, in which Massacre costs a lot more. But I guess the difference between BB and BB2 an be rather marginal in this deck. Will stick to Massacre for a while.

Barook

03-09-2015, 11:02 PM

I still wonder what recursive options are compatible with the deck since it's one of the few things the deck kinda lacks imho. Has anybody tested Tasigur yet?

Edit: To go a bit more into detail: I like redundancy, that's why certain key cards like KotR, Courser and Baloth are in twice in my list. It kinda sucks to lose certain 1-ofs and then be cut off from them.

ironclad8690

03-10-2015, 02:16 AM

Went 2-1 at my local store. Beat Elves! and Storm, lost to Infect (spell pierce for Chalice t1 g1, Force of Will for Chalice t2 g2). I was able to wipe a glistener elf off the board with a drown in sorrow, but I didn't have an answer to his EOT crop roto into inkmoth > become immense the next turn. This matchup is heavily Chalice/Trini-centric as well as being on the play vs draw and having enough wastelands/rolling spoils to deal with inkmoth, which doesn't die to decay or to our many sorcery speed sweepers.

As far as recursive elements barook, how about Volrath's Stronghold? With crucible that gives us ways to recur lands and creatures, though I am not sure how good it will be since the decks that we get into attrition wars with are often deathrite shaman decks which overload us with abrupt decay targets.

Speaking of which, has anyone ever though about Snuff Out in this deck? Additional answers to goyf giving abrupt decay a little breathing room to be used on shamans and delvers.

I dunno, just a thought I had after losing to infect today and wishing I had free answers to a pumped inkmoth or glistener elf after tapping out to play a chalice.

Barook

03-11-2015, 09:34 AM

As far as recursive elements barook, how about Volrath's Stronghold? With crucible that gives us ways to recur lands and creatures, though I am not sure how good it will be since the decks that we get into attrition wars with are often deathrite shaman decks which overload us with abrupt decay targets.
There are 4 cards that I currently consider for recursion:

- Stronghold: Probably my least favorite - doesn't generate CA, eats up draw steps, can only grab creatures (and we don't run that many). On the plus side, it could be fetched with KotR.

- Sword of Light and Shadow: Another card that can only grab creatures. Another source of life gain, plus it offers relevant protections, aside from CA. Needs creatures to work, although that coud probably circumvented by fetching Dryad Arbor. Hard to rate.

- Eternal Witness: CA, let's you grab anything you want, GSZ-able. Suffers from a shitty body and is yet another one-shot effect, unless you add more elements like the Two Towers combo or Temur Sabertooth.

- Tasigur: This one is probably the hardest to rate since I have not data on him. Great fighting body, especially hard to get rid off when you're able to lay down Chalice @1 to disable their StPs. However, weak to Karakas (our own Karakas can be used for protection). How much it cannibalizes your own lands in the GY (which feed KotR, DRS, Titania, CoW if you run it) is yet to be seen, but we do have great acceleration, so casting it without Delve isn't out of the question. The usefulness of his recursion is debatable in this deck, since we aren't just pure gas like other decks utilizing him - we run alot of cards that are either just dead in certain match-ups or dead in multiples. He gets some bonus points for clearing shitty Library cards on top, though.

anwei

03-15-2015, 09:28 AM

I've been looking at picking this up, but am worried about non-blue match-ups. Some contexts that I play are predictably mostly blue, but I'll still see a couple rounds of Nic Fit, Jund, Mud, etc. I assume that Nic Fit and other Chalice decks are generally bad matches.

What experiences have y'all had with this in newer builds? (I've read the primer and about half the thread).
Would NO in the board a reasonable way to go over-the-top against decks without counters? Or not worth the slots? (I've read the discussion on maindeck NO builds in pages 9-12ish).

Thanks

Barook

03-15-2015, 01:20 PM

ironclad8690

03-16-2015, 01:50 AM

Nic Fit isn't good in my experience, since they have Deed, better bombs and our mana disruption doesn't work well.

Can't comment on Jund, since it's basically non-existant on MODO.

MUD is so-so. If they get broken hands, you lose, if you can manascrew them before they get anything meaningful going, you win.

I have faced all of the above.

Nic Fit is even to slightly unfavorable, vet ex ramps both you and them. It comes down to who can drop a bomb first and whether the other person can deal with it.

Jund is not that great either. DRS, Decay, and Lili are all pretty decent against us.

MUD is probably the closest of these matchups.

If you want to beat Jund and Nic Fit, try playing a NO Package instead of the chokes and a higher creature count, perhaps goyfs as well. Library manipulation isn't as important with a Natural Order plan, but you do weaken your countermagic/discard matchups.

anwei

03-16-2015, 10:38 AM

If you want to beat Jund and Nic Fit, try playing a NO Package instead of the chokes and a higher creature count, perhaps goyfs as well. Library manipulation isn't as important with a Natural Order plan, but you do weaken your countermagic/discard matchups.

This is why I ask about it out of the board - I've often played UGx midrange-control decks with NO in the board as a trump card against non-blue fair matchups (e.g., Bant vs. Maverick), and it's been a great way to pivot gameplans for not-too-many slots.

Barook

03-16-2015, 02:31 PM

What would you realistically want to run as NO target to make the Jund match-up better? Sigarda? You don't need NO for that, GSZ would also work. Progenitus is kinda iffy if they have Liliana (on the following turn).

Begle1

03-16-2015, 05:49 PM

Worldspine Wurm would be a good NO target against Jund, I'd think.

Although Sigarda is perhaps the best anti-Jund card there is.

ironclad8690

03-17-2015, 08:26 PM

Yeah either Worldspine, or Terrastodon.

lilevo

03-24-2015, 05:30 PM

So with the SCG Invitational coming to my city this weekend (Richmond) and me being super disappointed to find out my invite expired for the invitational I decided to test for the legacy premier IQ, last night I went back to Sylvan Plug with this list.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/275221#online

I like the leylines in the board and I actually think I will try as a 4 of next time, also I think it might be time to go back to 4 baloths to help beat any deck that plays Lilianas and hymns.

Barook

03-24-2015, 06:54 PM

I quickly went back to 4 Leylines after testing 3 copies as Lejay suggested. It just didn't feel right to run only 3 for the match-ups where you really wanted it.

Lejay made some interesting changes in his newest list (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/274302#online)

Ghost Quarters, cutting Baloths for a more Mox-heavy build with Coursers and Ghost Quarters, plus Wirewood Symbiote to bounce Sages. Cutting Abrupt Decay seems kinda weird, though.

Edit: Just asking: How does Winter Orb interact with Choke?

Lejay

03-25-2015, 04:31 AM

It was a first draft. I didn't work much on it the week after because I had to lend cards but I certainly liked it. Current version isn't finished which is why I didn't post about it but here is some more current iteration :

// NAME : [T1.5] Sylvan Plug evolution
// CREATOR : LeJay (magic-ville.com)
// FORMAT :
1 Ancient Tomb (currently testing city as it gets better with 4 mox and a low curve. The singleton sol land keeps the turn one 2 mana options count at 5 and is also tutorable with knight)
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Savannah
3 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Choke
4 Sylvan Library
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Wirewood Symbiote / Arena / anything, kind of the freest slot
SB: 1 Turntimber Basilisk
SB: 1 Tower of the Magistrate
SB: 1 Spike Weaver
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Kalonian Hydra
SB: 1 Giant Solifuge
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Massacre
SB: 3 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge

The initial idea was purposedly to find a way to remove the abrupt decays. I always said they didn't feel at their home in this deck and that it was a necessary evil given the prevalence of delver and UR delver in particular. With a much different metagame without treasure cruise, it was time to work on that to see if it was possible.
The first thing I thought about (other than obvious deluges) was running the full playset of coursers to race non blockable creatures gaining life forever until you can deluge them or kill the opponent. It worked even better than I thought, mainly because by running only 0-1 ancient tomb you save a lot of life. 4 Courser 3 knights also means having a ground blocker one turn earlier very often. I had a baloth / Siege-rhino slot at first but seeing how much it was unnecessary in this version I put the third knight instead. It's not totally out of the equation to run 3 baloths sideboard though, mainly for discard match-ups.
Knight has additionnal synergy with multiple coursers, it's even better now. Maze of ith is weak overall since TNN but in a deck with no spot removal, mox diamonds, and ways to tutor for it it goes up in value.
Ghost quarter are still awesome and it works better with courser than rolling spoil obviously.
Having 4 mox diamonds means you will very often land turn 1 library, and having another very strong turn 1 play other than chalice is another reason why this deck is more stable than other chalice decks.
We were worried about running more mox diamonds because of the card disadvantage. The playset of courser is also there to help with that.
Titania could possibly be the 4th knight, but I like being less weak to Ooze/DRS/any non leyline non rip gravehate and having a late game option on GSZ.
Crucible isn't totally out of the deck. It's just that it's a bit slow in the modern legacy metagame, adds weakness to grave hate, and helps mostly in good match-ups. It could come back in sideboard. It could even be played cutting in chokes as this deck seems now even strong enough without them. I still think it's a losing proposition overall unless your meta is non blue and you have nothing else to play.
Deluge was obvious as soon as you remove decays. It removes the small creatures you can't block with knight of the reliquary.

In the sideboard I had to find some kind of 187 creature to compensate the absence of spot removals and turntimber basilisk is by far the best option I could find. Stingerfling could come back, but it would be in addition to it I think.
Hydra and spike are still best friends but it is possible to play without them I think. They still work great so far but having more maze of ith sb or dawnstrider + something else are options.
Symbot and arena are other choices that capitalize their strenght on the absence of spot removals. Arena hasn't been tested yet and symbiot just never went into action yet.

I don't like putting four leylines, as I faced grave decks numerous times with this configuration and have yet to lose to one of them. It's very possible I was lucky though.
I also really like that 3 knight and main deck karakas helps immensely against the one deck my previous build was weak to : sneak show.
Since the beginning I couldn't push the land count over 25, but it's possible more is right.

To summarize it's good and there is still work, so I advise everybody to playtest it.

MD.Ghost

03-25-2015, 08:02 AM

Nice to see, that the deck is still played by some players (and also lejay himself!). Overall some adjustments after the tc-ban seems totally fine. The format still has more than enough blue based decks and with Miracle + Omnitell the "Green-Stompy-Shell" retains two favored top decks in the current meta.

Elves and D&T are both back at "DtB" and iam unsure if the cut off Decay is the right direction (because Choke offers no help here too).

My personal adjustments to lejays current testbuild would be:

-1 Savannah
+1 Scrubland (colorfix)

-1 Courser of Kruphix (nice one with lands, library etc - but still only a attacker with 2 power...)
+1 Siege Rhino (still like this one and after the TC-Ban we see more TNN and Tasigur! If you don't like the rhino i would vote for Garruk Relentless as a "removal" and "Wolfblossom" which will be great against Miracle and potentially tutor which also works around Grafdigger's Cage)

-1 Choke (useless against non blue and in the majority)
+1 Crucible of Worlds (hey 4 Moxes + more Wastelands after the UR era)

-1 Ghost Quarter (maybe one more at Side, Crucible still improves Matchups with 4 Wastelands + 1 Ghost Quarter)
+1 Tower of the Magistrate (D&T and the cut off Decay - so one more out against Equipment Game 1)

-1 Dryad Arbor (one is fine with Zenith, but with Toxic Deluge and the "non haste" issue with Arbor, it don't see big improvements in the majority)
+1 Horizon Canopy (colorfix + drawengine with Crucible, work also with Titania/Knight)

-1 Sylvan Library (i never liked more than 3 and made small adjustments - see above - to justify the cut off)
+1 Scavenging Ooze (still a good creature in deck with enough mana and zenith-toolbox, improves some matchups and can be another beater - especially after a nice Toxic-Blowout!)

I will definitively made some online games with the list and compare it with my old Gbw Build (without mox, but with 4 tombs + decays). The Question is, will a higher Mox+Landcount outweigh the lack of decay and other stuff? Without aggressiv TC-driven UR Delver decks the selfdamage from Tomb seems manageable.

Barook

03-25-2015, 08:12 AM

I've talked a bit with Lejay about it yesterday, so my thoughts about it:

- I don't like the absence of AD. It was a stroke of genius to add to the initially monogreen Stompy shell, since it can answer quite a few problematic cards. Being able to remove stuff against a blue counterwall was always a strenght of the deck in my opinion. And Delver is far from gone, it's just a different iteration now. AD also trivializes opposing Lilianas.

- I hated running 4 Moxen in my playtesting. Too many dead draws and I miss the accel of Ancient Tomb which makes the Mox version worse against Spell Pierce and Daze.

- Courser as only source of lifegain is slow, I missed the Baloths.

- As awesome as KotR is, I'm not a fan of relying so heavily on KotR as threat due to the white count required. That's why I like Baloth, since it adds a green threat that doesn't rely on the GY.

As for the sideboard:
- Weaver is fine, Hydra is the thing I question the most. Sigarda is probably the most likely candidate as non-GY-dependent threat. Only downside is the double white when you naturally draw it.

- Turntimber Basilisk? Wouldn't be easier to run actual spot removal instead of weird GSZ targets?

- Arena in a more KotR-centered build is an interesting idea, might be cool

Edit: To address MD.Ghost: From my playtesting, D&T is positive, especially after boarding if you bring in a third Deluge + 2 Massacre + Tower. They can handle only so many sweepers, since we aren't Miracles to durdle around and allow them to recover. Sweepers are key, but AD is certainly nice to have.

For those who run 4 Leylines in their board, I'm still interested in testing of the Leyline + Helm of Obedience kill since Helm can also be a suprise middle finger against decks bringing RiP in against us.

ironclad8690

03-25-2015, 01:23 PM

Turntimber is awesome, but howabout Glissa, the Traitor. She fends of opposing Tarmos quite nicely and there is a small synergy with rebuying fallen chalices/moxen/trinispheres.

Lejay

03-25-2015, 02:18 PM

My personal adjustments to lejays current testbuild would be:

-1 Savannah
+1 Scrubland (colorfix)

I see what you are trying to do. But I don't think you saw the deck is already pushing it a lot on colorless lands, seems very bad to remove a green source since you play 4 coursers and want to be able to GSZ for dryad turn 1.

-1 Courser of Kruphix (nice one with lands, library etc - but still only a attacker with 2 power...)
+1 Siege Rhino (still like this one and after the TC-Ban we see more TNN and Tasigur! If you don't like the rhino i would vote for Garruk Relentless as a "removal" and "Wolfblossom" which will be great against Miracle and potentially tutor which also works around Grafdigger's Cage)

Pushing the synergy with courser+library is what allows the cut of decays. If you want to run rhino please cut something else, but honestly I don't think it is needed. It would be nice for TNN but I don't think this version is weak to it at all.

-1 Choke (useless against non blue and in the majority)
+1 Crucible of Worlds (hey 4 Moxes + more Wastelands after the UR era)

I am still on the same credo that if you choose to play this deck it's because your metagame is very blue. The standard list should have four, but that doesn't prevent people to adapt if they have no other choice.

-1 Ghost Quarter (maybe one more at Side, Crucible still improves Matchups with 4 Wastelands + 1 Ghost Quarter)
+1 Tower of the Magistrate (D&T and the cut off Decay - so one more out against Equipment Game 1)

It's either 2 or 3 ghost quarter, the card is too good. It's even close to being better than wasteland in the deck. Tower is a sideboard card, and while I wouldn't be against having it main deck to gain a sideboard slot, it would be one colorless too many.

-1 Dryad Arbor (one is fine with Zenith, but with Toxic Deluge and the "non haste" issue with Arbor, it don't see big improvements in the majority)
+1 Horizon Canopy (colorfix + drawengine with Crucible, work also with Titania/Knight)
With 4 mox diamonds dryad in hand will almost never be a liability, and I always want to be able to GSZ for it. It also works great with Titania and people get caught off guard when they think you only run one and that it is in the yard (attack with pyromancer, liliana etc...).

-1 Sylvan Library (i never liked more than 3 and made small adjustments - see above - to justify the cut off)
+1 Scavenging Ooze (still a good creature in deck with enough mana and zenith-toolbox, improves some matchups and can be another beater - especially after a nice Toxic-Blowout!)
Ooze would certainly be a better main deck card now with less sol lands, but turn 1 library is too good and happens quite often if you run 4 mox 4 lib.

I've talked a bit with Lejay about it yesterday, so my thoughts about it:

- I don't like the absence of AD. It was a stroke of genius to add to the initially monogreen Stompy shell, since it can answer quite a few problematic cards. Being able to remove stuff against a blue counterwall was always a strenght of the deck in my opinion. And Delver is far from gone, it's just a different iteration now. AD also trivializes opposing Lilianas.
If you just have a blue counterwall to beat you more likely need to resolve a threat or prison piece before they are online and having answers in hand will be horrible. I understand you talk about delver + three counters situations, but the other situation also happens a lot, and I'd say more often than the latter now. I'd rather run decays or mazes or anything else sideboard right now. But it certainly is an option to remove sol lands + baloths while keeping decays. I couldn't find the slots and wasn't convinced enough though.

- I hated running 4 Moxen in my playtesting. Too many dead draws and I miss the accel of Ancient Tomb which makes the Mox version worse against Spell Pierce and Daze.

Not only you are more likely to turn 1 library, skipping the taxing effects, but you also filter more with a courser in play with fetches, knight, GSZ and even ghost quarter. You also have a smaller curve. I argued myself right from the start against running too many mox diamonds, but all these changes make running the playset worthwhile. I used to sideboard out the two mox diams in previous builds against the slower grinder decks. Now I only sb out one.

- Courser as only source of lifegain is slow, I missed the Baloths.
Like I said not running tombs saves you a lot of life and courser blocks one turn earlier.

- As awesome as KotR is, I'm not a fan of relying so heavily on KotR as threat due to the white count required. That's why I like Baloth, since it adds a green threat that doesn't rely on the GY.
Without spot removal I need something that dominates the board. Baloth doesn't do it.

- Turntimber Basilisk? Wouldn't be easier to run actual spot removal instead of weird GSZ targets?I would if they were tutorable or if I had easy room for them. They are also not that much needed at first.

Turntimber is awesome, but howabout Glissa, the Traitor. She fends of opposing Tarmos quite nicely and there is a small synergy with rebuying fallen chalices/moxen/trinispheres.
It was a consideration. I don't believe much in the rebuy synergy. You can't force people to block it so it doesn't do much more than what knight of the reliquary does. And Knight does a lot more. Glissa is also vulnerable to all removals. Turntimber is too, but the basilisk just gives the opponent one turn. And if he doesn't attack he might lose two creatures to a fetch or whatever double landfall configuration. It's still a possibility because knight is weak to DRS + tarmogoyf situations and the karakas issue isn't one with 6 strip mines.

Tibalt

03-26-2015, 08:17 PM

Lejay

03-27-2015, 05:53 AM

The new list is very intriguing Lejay, I would be concerned with the bug matchup especially with out baloths to make them fear using lilliana and when everything now dies to abrupt decay in the maindeck (outside of Titiana). However you have not yet lead me astray so I am thinking of running this at the Richmond SCG premier IQ and seeing if I can break top 8. I finished just outside of the DC premier IQ's top 8.
I would also be worried about bug. If it is the dominant deck where you'll play and can play something that beats it switch deck.
I haven't tested the deck since my last post and probably won't much in the month coming because I'll test several new formats for me. So don't wait for me to deliver a final list and don't be afraid to try out things i proposed or didn't.

Barook

03-27-2015, 07:21 AM

Why not just bring the old version with Baloths and AD which both shine in said match-up?

Lejay

03-27-2015, 12:17 PM

If his meta is very blue an dominated by BUG Delver it may be the best choice.

Jeff

04-07-2015, 11:50 PM

I played this list last week at my local shop, went 3-0 then ID'd the last round. Beat Esper Deathblade, GRUB Delver, and Burning ANT.

//Creatures
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

//Instants
2 Abrupt Decay

//Sorceries
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Toxic Deluge

//Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
3 Trinisphere
1 Crucible of Worlds

//Enchantments
3 Choke
3 Sylvan Library

//Lands
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
3 Ghost Quarter

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
3 Forest

//Sideboard
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Massacre
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Choke
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Bojuka Bog
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Obviously some card choices are suboptimal because I threw it together at the last minute and didn't have everything I wanted. I'm picking up more coursers to try the heavy courser route and moving baloths to the board for the liliana matchup (if I keep them at all), and I'm gonna find room for that fourth library, but my real question was about Tabernacle.

I boarded it in constantly. I played a few games for fun against Maverick and ended up with him on 0 lands but two enormous Knights and it took me a solid 10 turns to find a way to answer them and get through for the win. I repeatedly wanted a way to punish my opponents for resolving spells before I decimated their mana. Is it possible Tabernacle is maindeckable in this deck?

The other question I had was whether the maindeck sage was really that important. I drew it constantly and never really needed it. I did manage to kill a batterskull with it once but the batterskull wasn't posing a huge problem for my Knights anyway. I like maindeck Sage in Elves because you need to answer game 1 counterbalances and moats and jittes, but what do we have to answer game 1 that is worth running another dead card? I played it as a 3 mana 2/1 because I needed to attack or block more often than I played it to kill something.

Editing another question in here: Does Maze of Ith have any place in the Knight heavy build?

Memories of the Time

04-21-2015, 09:34 AM

apple713

04-21-2015, 09:47 AM

I'm testing something a bit different, trying to maximize Mox boost with more cc2. I think that black is really need only against Nemesis, while decay is a good catch-all but doesn't give any advantage. With the rise (Again) of BUg deck, i really want P.Fire in the deck, so this is what i'm trying:

3 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Wasteland
4 Sylvan Library
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Choke
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Savannah
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Mox Diamond
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Dust Bowl
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Taiga
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Windswept Heath

SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 4 Crop Rotation
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker

(it's from cockatrice, sorry for the mess). If Thalia will work well with the deck i think she could be a great addition.

this seems like a punishing maverick deck. Thalia doesn't really work well with punishing fire, green sun or loam. Against decks you would need thalia you wouldn't need the others necessarily but it just seems clunky.

it would be nice if you had results to post with the list too, at least some cockatrice testing.

Also, the lists here have started running an increasing number of KOTR which would really benefit from the inclusion of 1 dark depths and 1 thespians stage. If you find yourself with an untapped KOTR you can simply search EOT then again on your turn to establish the combo. This works really nicely since you already have chalice on 1 to protect against stp, and repeal.

lilevo

04-23-2015, 07:51 PM

I played Lejay's list with the ghost quarters last week on a DE and to be honest I liked the previous list way better, also I am not a big fan of playing more than 2 Coursers, with 4 GSZ you can afford to play 1-2 and just search them.

MGB

05-22-2015, 12:52 PM

So what if this deck found a way to play Collected Company?

The card is extremely powerful as it is both card selection and card advantage, and additionally it is usually tempo advantage (paying 3G for up to as much as 6 mana worth of creatures).

If it were ever to find a shell in Legacy, it would probably be in Maverick, Elves, or something like this, because the Ancient Tombs can power this out more easily.

Of course, I think if you wanted to make it work you would have to place more of a focus on playing 3cc creatures - a full playset of Coursers, Knights of the Reliquary, Stoneforge Mystics, and probably Tarmogoyfs.

Barook

05-22-2015, 01:09 PM

The deck would need to run 22+ creatures to make CoCo worthwhile, so no. We don't have slots for that.

Megadeus

05-22-2015, 01:52 PM

What if you splashed white here and went for some disruptive white men like Thalia's or something? Dissynergy with your spells, but you have tombs and such to make up that mana. It could up the man count for CC.

MGB

05-22-2015, 02:35 PM

The deck would need to run 22+ creatures to make CoCo worthwhile, so no. We don't have slots for that.

Well, honestly, I don't see why you can't just play more creatures.

Obviously you wouldn't cut the Chalice of the Void, but if you decide you want to play something that generates chunks of card advantage and mana advantage (Collected Company), I could easily see cutting something like Sylvan Library and Green Sun's Zenith for more 2cc-3cc creatures.

Collected Company basically does what you want Library and GSZ to do anyway - but in many board states it's even better, as it's instant speed and generates hard card advantage *and* tempo advantage unlike these two. I don't think it's too outrageous to say that Collected Company is actually a more powerful card than both Sylvan Library *and* Green Sun's Zenith.

FoolofaTook

05-22-2015, 02:55 PM

MGB

05-22-2015, 02:59 PM

I thought the point of 4 Sylvan Library and 4 Green Sun's Zenith was to try to give the list pseudo-blue selection and advantage? That and Chalice of the Void and Choke were the things that made the list float in a meta drowning in blue cantrips.

When you have a spell that gives you card selection, card advantage, and tempo advantage all in one package, it might be worth checking out *over* cards such as Sylvan Library that only give card selection (or give card advantage only at steep life costs), and Green Sun's Zenith that only ever give card selection and no real card advantage or tempo advantage.

I don't know if anyone has tested with Collected Company much in Legacy yet, but the card is extremely powerful. I don't know if it will find a home in Legacy, but at face value, searching the top 6 of your library and essentially drawing two of them *and* putting them into play for free.... is incredibly powerful at 3G mana, and the fact that it is instant speed just puts it over the top.

Sometimes instead of fighting blue decks at their own game (card selection provided by cantrips)... you just have to smash them in the mouth with something even more powerful than what they are doing (raw card advantage and tempo advantage).

lilevo

05-22-2015, 05:17 PM

CoCo could work in a deck similar to Sylvan Plug but it would be a whole different deck.

Memories of the Time

05-22-2015, 05:25 PM

Sylvan plug runs 10-16 creatures usually: to fit CoCo you need
Almost 22 creatures
-CoCo slots

Long Story short, CoCo could be ok in a deck that try to play creatures hatebearers: Trinispehere---->Thalia is the most obvious choice, but you need much more change and i dunno where to search: leave decay?

I don't think that the main problem of this deck is card advantage or "bombs", in general.

Barook

05-25-2015, 05:14 PM

How does the deck work against the current iteration of Omnitell? Our Miracles match-up is already good.

Brainstorm is back to 80+% on MODO and my fingers are itching to slap some blue bitches.

lilevo

05-26-2015, 01:48 PM

I could be wrong but I don't remember losing to OmniTell while playing Sylvan plug, one of the things I liked to do was to hold a Trinisphere in hand for Show & Tell and only play one out if I had a second one in hand.

Memories of the Time

05-26-2015, 07:26 PM

You have choke, trinisphere, gsz for reclamation sage, fast chalice... I mean, you have to find 2 of these or you die, but Mu against Miracle and Omnitell are good reasons to play this deck.

Barook

05-28-2015, 07:59 PM

Memories of the Time

05-29-2015, 02:56 AM

I wonder: Has anybody considered Uba Mask?

Not only does it make cantrips worse (unless they go full Ancestral Recall with a Brainstorm with an empty hand), it also turns every Sylvan Library into a super-draw engine.

I've tried it, both in Demon Stompy and here. It's good against miracle and combo, but sometimes it could be a little weird (like brainstorm with 0 cards in hand). If Omnitell doesn't have Omniscence in hand they have to remove Mask, of course, still i think we can find something better...

MD.Ghost

05-29-2015, 08:29 AM

How does the deck work against the current iteration of Omnitell? Our Miracles match-up is already good.

Brainstorm is back to 80+% on MODO and my fingers are itching to slap some blue bitches.

I still try to find my deck to go for GP Lille and thanks to Legacys Overlord Miracle (which will be in Lille with its true European Power) and the stupid DTT-powered Omnitell decks, Sylvan Plug sounds like a reasonable choice.

The biggest question is, which direction is the right one: Old GBw List with more Decay & Baloths; more W-Splash with Knights (and a Rhino) or the lattest stuff with a Playset Mox (and no Maindeck Decays)

Zombie

05-29-2015, 08:51 AM

Jund Plug with Slaughter Games maybe?

Barook

05-29-2015, 11:39 AM

The biggest question is, which direction is the right one: Old GBw List with more Decay & Baloths; more W-Splash with Knights (and a Rhino) or the lattest stuff with a Playset Mox (and no Maindeck Decays)
One thing I dislike about the deck in general is the low density of threats to close out the game. It's a great deck to lock the opponent out of the game, but I found myself struggling to end said games sometimes, though. I doubt this is something that could be easily addressed given the tightness of the list.

Edit: @Zombie: I don't think you could cut white from the build.

Memories of the Time

05-29-2015, 02:23 PM

I think the main problems of our deck, now, are Team America and Lands/post Mu (and the intrinsic high variance of all non-blue deck, of course).
After have tried Mox Diamonds, i think that they're the best accel for this deck, but they need too many slots: mox has to be played in addition of lands, increasing the number of dead draws and reducing the density of threats to close out the game, as Barook has said. So i've come back to ancient tomb: they're worse than mox d. , but don't need extra slot.
This is my current list:

24 lands (tabernacle isn't a true land btw)

1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland
2 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Dust Bowl
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Cabal Pit

9 Creatures

1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Siege Rhino
1 Deathrite Shaman

4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Abrupt Decay

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Trinisphere
4 Sylvan Library
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Choke

SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 4 Crop Rotation
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Trinisphere

I think Mystic is a card that deserves a test here: because we have chalice, because we can cast batterskull without many problembs and we need its lifelink, because equips make every creature a threat.

I'm really not sure about the sideboard: crop rotation is still the best t1 answer to fast combo (and searchs dust bowl against land and post, i'm very happy with it), but 4° trinisphere or 4° Choke? Massacre, Qasali, Priest (we really need priest?)

Barook

05-29-2015, 02:33 PM

Mox Diamond costs extra slots and is pretty much a dead draw when not in our starting hand with enough lands, but it also fixes our mana. Running Siege Rhino and so many other non-green card with the amount of colorless lands seems questionable.

Report back on the SFM testing. Although I don't see how this increases threat density by cutting threats. :eyebrow:

MD.Ghost

05-29-2015, 04:06 PM

Mox Diamond costs extra slots and is pretty much a dead draw when not in our starting hand with enough lands, but it also fixes our mana. Running Siege Rhino and so many other non-green card with the amount of colorless lands seems questionable.

Agree, in the past i don't like running Mox (and more lands), but now i think i will give it a new try.

My latest testbuild:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland

2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Siege Rhino
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Qasali Pridemage

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Choke
3 Sylvan Library
3 Trinisphere
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Mox Diamond
1 Crucible of Worlds

SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Massacre
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Tower of the Magistrate
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Giant Solifuge

I tried to find a mix between enough threats and the decks core (lock pieces), not all is set in stone!

Sideboard got some proven stuff. Double Canonist and Krosan Grip are additional help against Omnitell, but can also support many other matchups (KGrip vs Miracle, DnT, Blade; Canonist against Storm/Elves etc.). Sigarda acts as a Titania-Finisher, if the opponent bring Graveyard-Hate (or has bolts).

Note: If anyone want to cut the "deep" white stuff (Rhino, Canonist, Sigarda) i would play a Garruk Relentless Main (and a basic Swamp + Forest) and the common Spike Weaver + Hydra combo instead.

Memories of the Time

05-29-2015, 07:26 PM

Mox Diamond costs extra slots and is pretty much a dead draw when not in our starting hand with enough lands, but it also fixes our mana. Running Siege Rhino and so many other non-green card with the amount of colorless lands seems questionable.

Report back on the SFM testing. Although I don't see how this increases threat density by cutting threats. :eyebrow:

I'm okay with the scrubland, of course sometimes you can get color screw but crucible, kotr and drs help. Not happened often, btw.

The idea about sfm is to make every creature we play a good threat equipping it with Sofi/Bs: even a dryad arbor or a courser of cruphix become a danger with an equip on them. Btw crucible or 4° decay could become another creature (another Kotr i think).

Barook

05-29-2015, 07:58 PM

I'll screw around with a somewhat similiar list running Stoneforge and see how it goes. Maybe I'll throw in a Sword of Light and Shadow for life recovery and recursion.

I can't say I'm a fan of cutting the Mox so far.

Edit: Maybe including Jitte over SoLaS might be a smarter decision.

lilevo

06-01-2015, 08:10 PM

I haven't played this deck in a while since I started messing with Grixis variations, but I still play with it in the tournament practice room, I have added Huntmaster of the Fells and so far I like it also I think all these extra OmniTell/Storm hate in the board is not necessary.

Darklingske

06-03-2015, 02:06 AM

What's your current list Lilevo? And what is your sideboard then? I haven't played against Omnitell yet with the deck, but I think that Chalice @ 1 is pretty backbreaking against them. Only thing I see causing problems for us is the fact that we do not have a fast clock, and that they still can summon the big bad boy and just bash in our heads. But unless we incorporate Ensnaring Bridge, I don't see a good solution to Emrakul.

Jsang

06-03-2015, 03:28 AM

But unless we incorporate Ensnaring Bridge, I don't see a good solution to Emrakul.

Karakas?

Matsaya

06-03-2015, 03:48 AM

No. At least not for the omnitell matchup.

Jsang

06-03-2015, 04:08 AM

No. At least not for the omnitell matchup.

Karakas (can be fetched by knights) deal with Emrakul in this situation, implying ensnaring bridge is not needed; this is what I am addressing.

Matsaya

06-03-2015, 04:16 AM

It does not deals with emrakull. If you use karakas, they simply play emrakull from omniscience, take an extra turn and attack you while your karakas is tapped.

To be honest, it deals with show-and-tell -> emrakull, but that is not the usual line of play of the omnishow player (and they wont do it if you have a karakas or knight on the battlefield))

MD.Ghost

06-04-2015, 04:56 AM

I got some impressiv results from my testing build but still tinker with some slots.

Maindeck (most common slots, 2 mox, 2 courser, 2 knights, 2 baloths etc) i have 1 flexslot, i could be the 4th decay (but lejay removed them completly), or another high impact card: siege rhino, garruk relentless, polukranos, world eater

Both creatures can gain some advantage if you will see BUG (Gofy, Decay, Tasigur, TNN) so i like it over a third baloth (or knight, barook already warned for too many graveyard stuff)

Currently i ran the World Eater, what are your thoughts here?

Sideboard i tinker with 2 removal slots (i also play 2 massacre), because i dismissed Weaver+Hyrda (play 1 sigarda), first sketch was 2 diabolic edict, because it only needs 1B and will get gofy, tnn, emrakul and even ddepths combo. The new idea here is, 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal here, because it will kill DnT/Elves/Grixis/Infect etc (against non white, Massacre also cost 2BB). What do you think? Or should i play the common third deluge? (i have 2 main).

Barook

06-04-2015, 07:33 AM

lilevo

06-08-2015, 03:49 PM

@Darklinske: My latest version is close to this one I think I swapped one baloth for the huntmaster http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/283443#online

At least to me most Omnitell games are pretty easy, you try to resolve a lock piece early like a chalice or choke, now spheres I try to put into play off a show and tell unless I have 2 in hand then you can try to bait the first one out. if they get emrakul in play off a show and tell you can GSZ for stingerfling spider post board, pre board it can be a little more difficult if they straight up S&T Emrakul into play turn 2/3, but that almost never happens. The easiest way to beat them is playing like this: opp plays S&T you put trinisphere in play, they put omni, you choke them the following turn :laugh:

Whitefaces

06-09-2015, 10:14 AM

I see Tower of the Magistrate being run in a lot of SBs, what's it for?

ironclad8690

06-09-2015, 11:59 AM

I usually bring it in vs any SFM deck, MUD, and Affinity.

lilevo

06-09-2015, 12:05 PM

Any deck that plays equipment, you give protection from artifacts to the equiped creature and the equipment falls off.

ironclad8690

06-13-2015, 02:59 AM

Just went 3-1 in a daily event using a budget version with 4 Ghost Quarter instead of Wasteland.

Round 1: Omnitell 2-0
Round 2: Storm 2-0
Round 3: Miracles 1-2
Round 4: 4 Color Delver 2-1

The losses to miracles were because of Elspeth, Knight Errant, which was actually really annoying. Miracles is a good example of a deck where the budgeting really hurt, because I couldn't kill his duals or basics profitably.

Game 1 vs storm, the budgeting actually really helped because he fetched his 2 basics, which I later Ghost Quartered.

ironclad8690

06-14-2015, 06:48 PM

Imagine this: It's game 3 against a miracles opponent. Game 1 you crushed them, g2 you got crushed by an early Jace followed by Monastery Mentor. How do you sideboard in game 3 knowing they have monastery mentor? Rolling spoil is left in the maindeck anyways to deal with basic plains, but what other mass removal do you bring in to deal with a Mentor? Do you take the screw it approach and not board in Massacres or Deluges, or do you take the "Outs" route and board some/all of those cards in?

Also, howabout Hornet Queen or Hornet Nest as a sideboard card vs Shardless?

ironclad8690

06-16-2015, 08:18 PM

3-1 another daily with budget plug.

R1 Omnitell 1-2

R2 Elves 2-0

R3 Burn 2-1

R4 MUDpost 2-0

Barook

06-17-2015, 07:52 PM

Lejay appearently had a new list, but I don't know what to think about it:

Blue splash for Daze? (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/297577#online) :eyebrow:

glowparty

06-17-2015, 08:17 PM

Lejay appearently had a new list, but I don't know what to think about it:

Blue splash for Daze? (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/297577#online) :eyebrow:

interesting application since daze usually supports early game strategies.
trinisphere & choke could strain opposing mana enough for daze to work, so long as you can pay for the daze. daze works with choke nicely.
you can knight out the tropicals once choke's out and you need the land / don't have daze.

ESG

06-18-2015, 12:26 AM

Also, the tilt factor has to be off the charts: Your green deck with maindeck Chokes fetches a Tropical Island and counters your spell with Daze.

lilevo

06-18-2015, 01:43 PM

Daze provides a way to fight early countermagic without requiring a high number of blue cards, I am sure it can be very good to help Spheres/Chalices/Chokes resolve early in the game.

Poron

06-19-2015, 01:07 PM

what about Tabernacle in this deck? at least in the SB

you play sol lands and Mox Diamonds for Rampage, worst case scenario a Gaea's Cradle.

With Choke it would totally blast Esper, Grixis Sultai Delver

Lejay

06-19-2015, 01:18 PM

Barook

06-19-2015, 06:12 PM

It's something that I have been having in mind for some time, but it would be in a deck optimizing it. You would cut all creatures I think and thus GSZ. You would kill with planeswalkers and keep sylvan libraries. The deck would be insanely expensive though since you would probably play 3 tabernacle, possibly 4 because of mox diamonds. So I didn't bother trying.
Tabernacle cost "only" 22 tix online, so it would be doable as a Online deck at least. But would that route really be better than the current one?

How's the testing with latest list going? Doesn't Knight as the only "real" threat expose you more to GY hate?

Lejay

06-19-2015, 06:51 PM

Tabernacle cost "only" 22 tix online, so it would be doable as a Online deck at least. But would that route really be better than the current one?I don't know

How's the testing with latest list going? Doesn't Knight as the only "real" threat expose you more to GY hate?4 mox diam list works well and daze works well with it. I am running a lorescale coatl sideboard to have a big threat unimpacted by grave hate, but I am not even sure it is correct to run it as grave hate being problematic is rare and I don't always have a sylvan in play.

Barook

06-19-2015, 08:10 PM

Wouldn't running the blue splash open up Trygon Predator as GSZ target for the more grindy match-ups?

Lejay

06-19-2015, 08:26 PM

I run it in the sideboard.

Plague Sliver

06-20-2015, 04:05 AM

Great deck - I love playing it in Miracle/Omni infested metas. It's brilliant.

I'm relatively new at this archetype (prison/stax) but a few questions come to mind:

- Has anyone considered straight GB without the W splash? You lose Knight but the mana base gets a lot more consistent. You can go up to 4 Sol lands and still play Teeg in the board with GSZ (and maybe a Savannah). Karakas is still a possibility as an answer to legends, with 4 Libraries it's fairly easy to find. Knight just isn't the finisher he used to be and in testing I found myself getting screwed out of W unless I went deep into Mox Diamonds.
- how about Goyfs out of the board? One of the challenges in this deck is opponent riding a quick Goyf/Delver to victory. Playing our own Goyfs ensures more answers/beatdown in the times we don't find a Decay.
- coming over from Junk Nic Fit, I really like maindeck Thrun. Drop it if you face Miracles or suspect opponent has a Jace in the wings. Has anyone else tested this?

I'll refrain from posting my list unless someone is interested. These are just some suggestions from light play testing.

Barook

06-20-2015, 05:21 AM

1) Knight does amazingly fit into our strategy. I'd rather run more Knights than less.
2) We don't have means to fill our GY. And the deck does its job, the opponent doesn't, either.
3) I played Thrun in the beginning, but switched to Giant Solifuge then. The haste is too important for the match-ups were you actually want it.

Darklingske

06-20-2015, 07:18 AM

Yesterday I played the new iteration of the deck in my local FNM. Won against Affinity 2-1 and then lost to BURG-Delver & Bant (both 1-2). Both MU were fun games, but very hard. Against delver I always seem to have the same problem: they drop an early Delver and I can't get rid of it in time. Against Bant the problem was the same, but with other creatures. He dropped Goyf (T2), Qasali & SFM (T3), Batterskull & Goyf (T4) and I couldn't get enough creatures in play to block. Then he followed it with an Elspeth and that was game. Planeswalkers are really hard for us to get rid of. Is anyone else having the same problem?
Considering the Blue splash: haven't had the opportunity to cast a daze the whole night. So, no conclusion on that front. I also seemed to be very unlucky with Chalice. I never opened a hand with a chalice in it.
I'm now reconfiguring my SB to the following:
2 Massacre
1 Deluge
1 Qasali
1 Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Karakas
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Giant Solifuge
1 Trygon Predator
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Open slots (PW answers?)
Any help on the SB is much appreciated!

Sibelius

06-23-2015, 08:48 AM

It's something that I have been having in mind for some time, but it would be in a deck optimizing it. You would cut all creatures I think and thus GSZ. You would kill with planeswalkers and keep sylvan libraries. The deck would be insanely expensive though since you would probably play 3 tabernacle, possibly 4 because of mox diamonds. So I didn't bother trying.

Long time lurker but haven't posted in a while, or at all it turns out !
Your idea of a deck with 3/4 Tabernacle intrigues me and reminds me of the Vintage prison lists running 4 in the side. Would you be happy to expand on that idea here or does it need a new thread ?

Thanks

lilevo

06-23-2015, 06:04 PM

So I started playing the deck again on mtgo and have been doing well with it basically without failing to cash on the daily events. I added Huntmaster of the Fells (http://magiccards.info/dka/en/140a.html) to the deck last week and it has been good, now I am not running any red sources other than the 2 moxes and DRS, so twice Huntmaster just got stuck in my hand without being able to cast it, I am planning on adding at least one taiga to the deck but I would also like to make the red splash worthwhile. What red cards do you guys think it would be worth splashing? so far I have thought about slice and dice, pyroclasm and ruination.

Lejay

06-23-2015, 08:50 PM

Long time lurker but haven't posted in a while, or at all it turns out !
Your idea of a deck with 3/4 Tabernacle intrigues me and reminds me of the Vintage prison lists running 4 in the side. Would you be happy to expand on that idea here or does it need a new thread ?

Thanks

Sorry I don't much more of an idea about it than what I wrote. But a prison deck with sylvan library and possibly Jace/TEzz (yes despite choke with non island blue lands) seems nice as the prison decks really need good engines. It's a completely different topic though.

Xanthos

07-03-2015, 02:12 PM

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-daily-2015-07-02

:smile:

ironclad8690

07-03-2015, 02:21 PM

I was watching GerryT's stream when Romario stomped him in the nuts with a Kalonian Hydra. LSV and Brian Kibler were in the chat too, it was amazing.

MD.Ghost

07-04-2015, 02:32 AM

lilevo

07-06-2015, 03:13 PM

lol I wasn't aware I was playing against GerryT but thanks to you I went back and watched the match from his side of the screen. Btw if anyone is interested I am now playing 4 Baloths and one knight, lately I have seen more people playing discard and Lilianas/Hymns.

Choobak

07-14-2015, 01:34 PM

I had some last minute family issuses and sadly cancelled my GP Lille trip...besides my friends, i also hope someone with Sylvan Plug will do well today and tomorrow. My wish was to play with this deck because the meta feels so right now (and maybe it is the last time before the DTT Ban?).

I think Lejay will chose a blue shell, so i hope anybody else will register this deck today :tongue:

I played it with a 6-1-2 for day 1 and 6-1 at the sunday side event legacy. My list :

2 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Mox Diamond
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Choke
4 Sylvan Library
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Ghost Quarter
SB: 1 Tower of the Magistrate
SB: 1 Spike Weaver
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Kalonian Hydra
SB: 1 Giant Solifuge
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Massacre
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Skylasher
SB: 1 Trinisphere

lilevo

07-15-2015, 12:24 PM

I streamed the daily last night with Sylvan Plug and went 3-1 also this streamer has been playing some Sylvan Plug

http://www.twitch.tv/smalltownmagic/profile/past_broadcasts

Deviruchi

07-15-2015, 05:21 PM

After last b&r announcement I've decided to try again this green friend in the sea of blue metagame. This is only the beginning but I have a big pleasure playing this deck. I have been testing an old BG version with small W SB (I have a strong and inexplicable aversion to KoR). Currently I'm 19-1 vs top blue, dropping 1 match to BUG, mostly because of fast Jace 2.0. I must say that this new Miracle Mentor deck with Daze and Counterspell is very exacting. Matchup is much worse than before when I was only scared of fast Entreat the Angels for 2-3. Score vs nonblue is not so good, 10-6. I have a feeling that Plug is the best chalice deck vs blue but worse vs anything else than Aggro Loam.

Decklist:

3 Ancient Tomb
3 Bayou
5 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Obstinate Baloth
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Rolling Spoil
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Choke
4 Sylvan Library
1 Toxic Deluge

SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Giant Solifuge
SB: 1 Kalonian Hydra
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 2 Massacre
SB: 2 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Savannah
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Spike Weaver
SB: 1 Stingerfling Spider
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Golgari Charm

Things to try:
- add 1 more Reclamation Sage somewhere.
- add more graveyard hate, maybe 2-3 LotV/Fearie Macabre. Probably LotV vs KoR's and LftL.
- test version with W and U.
- more Toxic Deluge (2nd in main?) vs Mentor/Pyromancer.dec meta

MD.Ghost

07-16-2015, 07:12 AM

@Choobak: Great that you had the balls to play the deck at the GP - Too bad that you missed day 2! Maybe you can write some more details? How good was the Skylasher?

@Deviruchi: I still think the "old" Version of your deck is outdated, the Treasure Cruise Era is over, so you have to make some adaptations for the current meta. While Aggro Loam seems greater against a wield field with a lot of random stuff, this deck will be much better if you try to beat the top decks. Lejay created the deck vs UR Delver (which was a little bit faster than the new Grixis-Stuff) and the very blue meta, but struggled against Elves and Sneak & Show (both are more or less gone). First thing is, get rid of roiling spoil - you will face a much wider range of creatures, so you need a sweeper like toxic deluge (which also is nice vs mentor!).

@at GP: I prepared a lot for this event, but as i already mentioned i had to cancel the trip tree days before the mainevent....

My GP Version looked like:

//Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas

//Creatures
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Qasali Pridemage

//Rest
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Choke
3 Sylvan Library
3 Trinisphere
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Mox Diamond
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Garruk Relentless

//Sideboard
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Massacre
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Giant Solifuge
1 Trinisphere
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Tower of the Magistrate

As you can see a lot of common choices and some "special ones".

Manabase: I still like the 2 Mox version over the full playset, the reason is simple: If you go full Mox you have to cut something else - if you cut too many lock pieces you will struggle with a bad Aggro Loam version of this deck, if you cut creatures you will get problems (not at MODO, thanks to the clock) to end the games quick enough. Some Creatures will die/get countered and you will durdle around for a while, seeing more and more copies of stuff you already has in game (lock pieces / library / moxes / lands) or you simply don't need yet because your opponent will kill your with a creature. Before the GP i talked with Players who also tested the deck and all mentioned the problems: "Timeout / long games" and "struggle with enemy creatures, especially bigger stuff like Gofy or the famous Zombie-Fish in Grixis"

That was the reason i want more Creatures, which worked good enough during the test months. Ooze and Pridemage are both solid early Zenith-Targets, which can apply some preasure combined with usefull abilities. Two Knights will ensure, that you have some big creatures to smash the enemy or to overcome Gofy etc. (BUG wasn't a problem during the TC-Era and Baloth was enough) - the biggest upside is, that Knights will get Utility Lands and can create a Wasteland-Lock.

Removal are a problem because this deck simply has no space... i still feel that Abrupt Decay is important, sure it is not so essential after the aggressiv UR-Delver-Cruise decks are banned, but you will face still a lot of creatures (even miracle with mentor hype...), so cutting too much Decays seems wrong, unless you play against OmniShow all day long. Roilling Spoil was good enough against UR, but Toxic Deluge is still the strongest Sweeper we can play, because it will also hit Gofy etc. and one less mana to cast can make a huge different against Tempo Decks with Daze and/or Pierce (or simply a turn more of beats against your head). Garruk will works as a One Shot here - good enough for killing Young Pyromancer and Deathrite Shaman. Garruk itself isn't as good as every single option you can play above him (4th Decay, another cc4 Creature like Baloth, Siege Rhino, Polukranos etc. - i tested them all) but he is a swiss army knife and if you can safe him from bolts (Chalice etc.) he will work good enough in various scenarios.

Lock Pieces - for me it is clear, if the deck will run full Wastelands (and also Ghost Quarter) and Knights, you wan't something to return your land destruction stuff - Crucible of Worlds - great card with 5 "Wastelands" and (compared to Aggro Loam) more Lock Pieces and it works well with Courser (Landfall/Shuffle), Mox, Titania (Fetch/Waste), Arbor (recurring Blocker) and Library (Shuffle).

Sideboard contains a lot of proven stuff, noteable are Ghost Quarter (i can't find a slot at main, but this land is really good) especially if you face decks like lands.dec, aggro loam, 12post, mud (note: miracle tends to cut the 2nd plain so GQ will punish them!); Diabolic Edict (a spot removal with upside: eat all the annoying stuff like TNN; Gurmag Angler; Marit Large; Emrakul etc.) and Sigarda (a nice finisher if the air is filled with Bolts/Swords etc. and Titania isn't save enough and/or you need another blocker for Delver/Flyers).

-----------
Two weeks before the GP i played a local tournament (38 players) and went 4:2 and missed the top8 thanks to my oppscore

Matchups:

Jund 0:2
Reanimator 2:0
Miracle 2:0
Mentor-Miracle 2:0
Grixis Delver 1:2
Goblins 2:0

Against Grixis i made a huge mistake G3, so overall the deck performed well enough and is really equiped to smash most blue decks.

Choobak

07-18-2015, 05:52 PM

Ingo

07-22-2015, 04:50 PM

Sorry, I've no time to translate my report in English, but you can read it here (http://www.legacy-france.org/index.php?showtopic=13065&st=135#entry233800) in french.
I just want to say that this version is not the best in a liliana and delver field, but i appreciate it a lot for this GP. It's a good Day2 deck and i would appreciate it if i didn't meet a Jund at the 8th round. unfortunatelly, without bye, it's hard.

The Skylasher is not good. I never use it. I prefer more abrupt decay. Now, maybe i will try the Herald of the Pantheon and Dwynen, Gilt-Leaf Daen.

Loved reading the report, played Lands (RG) myself in Lille and yea, Chalice decks can be hard to overcome, and although it seems contradictory, Lands can be soft to manadenial as you witnessed. Too bad bout your badtempered round1 opponent on Sundays, most Landsplayers are nicer :) As I like all nonblue strategies, might try Sylvan Plug myself in the future (format ein't getting less blue).

lilevo

07-24-2015, 01:21 PM

You guys might find this interesting Frank also posted something on his FB page.

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1244672

Deviruchi

07-24-2015, 01:44 PM

Wow, he has an ability to netdeck decklist used by romariovidal & G0ogle on modo and call it BG prison by Frank Lepore? Great success!

lilevo

07-24-2015, 05:10 PM

To be fair I don't think he is claiming that's his list, he just posted he played at a local event with the deck and went 4-0.

MD.Ghost

07-26-2015, 03:33 PM

Today i won a 6 round (34 players) tournament with my plug.version for GP Lille (see post/link (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28759-Sylvan-Plug-(or-whatever-splashed-Green-stompy)&p=894139&viewfull=1#post894139) above).

Matchups:
UB Delver 2:1
BUG Delver 2:1
Miracle 2:1
BUG Delver 2:0
MUD 2:1
DnT 1:1 :1

Deck was a blast and i can only recommend to test the build over other chalice.stuff like aggro loam etc. thanks to the fact, that we continue with the "no changes" meta :laugh:

tyriion

08-09-2015, 07:38 AM

Hi,

I took MD.Ghost's list to a local event yesterday and finished 3-1-1 (no top in this particular tournament, pay out on MP) The deck was very fun, especially if it wasn't fun for the opponent. And it's a very good choice in most Dutch legacy stores, as we get 80%+ blue decks mostly. Yesterday was no different with 20ish people attending, one Elves, one DnT and one affinity and me as non-blue decks.

Round 1 (UR Delver)
Mull to 6, lose die roll and sequence lock pieces wrong. Means he gets there. Also awkward with GSZ and Arbor in starting 6.
Next one I win easily as choke and trinisphere lock down his board and his delver refuses to flip.
And game 3 he opens up really aggressively. By the time I clear the board he has resolved a vortex. I don't find the decay and lose.

(0-1)

Round 2 (Shardless BUG)
Mull to 6, lose die roll. T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Hymn for 2 lands and T3 Lilli is too much.
Game 2 goes back and forth with him finding decays when I assemble some locks. At some point the board stalls with his 2 goyfs, 2 agents and a DRS (just cascaded into that one) I have a knight, a courser, a baloth and an arbor. He knows I have decay. No creatures in the GY yet aswell as no artifact. Goyfis 4/5, the knight is 5/5. He attacks with an agent, and double goyf to get me in range of DRS activation. I decay a goyf, block agent with arbor and sack it to knight who blocks the other goyf. The Silvan library brings me a Deluge that's just gravy :D.
Sadly he played a bit slowly, as did I, which means this ends up in a draw.

(0-1-1)

Two blue matchups down, no matchwins yet. This means lunch break is right in time (yes, this tournament has a lunch break, that's actually pretty awesome) To salvage my day and finish in the money I need 3 straight wins now. Let's proceed.

Round 3 (Miracles with helm/rip)
Game 1 I eventually assemble some lock pieces, bouncing his clique with karakas and putting down chalice on 3 together with chalice on 1 and forcing him to spin top by decaying it. Sadly he draws into helm rip before I find a creature.
Game 2 I have all the removal, casting GSZ 4 times in a row, the last time for Solifuge to beat his Jace. Ghost Quarter to beat his Energy Field.
Game 3 an early Teeg means no sweepers, trini+choke lock down his board. He can't find a flooded strand so he has to fetch a tundra for the StP in hand. This means he can't top though. Library is too much CA in the end.

(1-1-1)

Round 4 (TES)
I mull to 6 but win a die roll for a change. Sadly can't make a T1 chalice @ 1, but I know he's on TES. So I drop it for 0 and it buys me just enough time.
Game 2 he EoT double deacys my Trini+Teeg, sometimes they have it.
Game 3 gets really close, I find multiple lock pieces and waste lock him with Crucible. Can't find a chalice though. He has to wipe my board with grapeshot after bouncing Trini (for storm 6). He can't find the land to kill me though, I gained too much life with Courser.

(2-1-1)

Round 5 (Jeskai Ascendancy)
I already know what he plays. He proceeds to force both my chalice and trinisphere and still win on T3.
Game 2 I have double trini and double chalice, he actually forces 3 times this game. But he runs out of gas.
Game 3 again 2 forces, but I catch him with choke.

(3-1-1)

My team all finished in the money (4/5 money slots) and they were all glad to dodge me as they played 4c delver 2x and ANT.

Redkid43

08-25-2015, 11:14 AM

Interesting list that was posted just now on SCG

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Terastodon
2 Progenitus
2 Dryad Arbor

1 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

7 Forest
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Choke
3 Sylvan Library
4 Eureka
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Living Wish
4 Natural Order

Sideboard
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Hornet Queen
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Thragtusk
1 Choke
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Progenitus
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Crystal Vein
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

Plug plan with prison lock outs and choke then Natural Orders for big dumb dude or Eureka them in Love it.

Octopusman

09-11-2015, 05:46 PM

MD.Ghost

09-15-2015, 04:33 AM

@MD.Ghost - I really like your list.
It has been a few months. Any changes?

Thanks - I haven't played the deck the last few months (brewing with other stuff :wink: ) - but if i would enter a big tournament and/or play in a meta full with miracle and/or Omnitell i would snap grap my old GP-List.

I think all the pieces work well enough together to get a solid deck. The biggest problem is, that aggro loam (which is still weaker against miracle+omni!) get so many "Hypes" after the GP, that "Chalice" isn't the big surprise anymore. This means - most (good) opponents will be prepared to fight Aggro Loam/Artifacts - in this case, Sylvan Plug will get some Splash Damage (i am happy that Choke is an Enchantment :tongue: ). This Deck also contains much bigger creatures, so common red removal, decays etc. don't get them.

-------------------
Speaking about the hyped Chalice-Brother (Aggro Loam) i would switch main/side after the first game this way:
-4 Chalice of the Void, -3 Trinisphere, -3 Choke
+2 Faerie Macabre +1 Sage +1 Pulse +1 Sigarda +1 Edict +1 Deluge +1 Bojuka Bog +1 Quarter +1 Solifuge

They simply can't beat Sigarda (unless they play and find a timly Deluge) and you have a lot of removal to get them. For G1 i would try to get a Chalice at 2, because they have many Spells at cc2 and have to find a Decay in time (which has plenty of other targets :wink:). A well timed Obstinate Baloth can also counter Liliana of the Veil.

Octopusman

09-23-2015, 04:31 PM

Thanks - I haven't played the deck the last few months (brewing with other stuff :wink: ) - but if i would enter a big tournament and/or play in a meta full with miracle and/or Omnitell i would snap grap my old GP-List.

I think all the pieces work well enough together to get a solid deck. The biggest problem is, that aggro loam (which is still weaker against miracle+omni!) get so many "Hypes" after the GP, that "Chalice" isn't the big surprise anymore. This means - most (good) opponents will be prepared to fight Aggro Loam/Artifacts - in this case, Sylvan Plug will get some Splash Damage (i am happy that Choke is an Enchantment :tongue: ). This Deck also contains much bigger creatures, so common red removal, decays etc. don't get them.

-------------------
Speaking about the hyped Chalice-Brother (Aggro Loam) i would switch main/side after the first game this way:
-4 Chalice of the Void, -3 Trinisphere, -3 Choke
+2 Faerie Macabre +1 Sage +1 Pulse +1 Sigarda +1 Edict +1 Deluge +1 Bojuka Bog +1 Quarter +1 Solifuge

They simply can't beat Sigarda (unless they play and find a timly Deluge) and you have a lot of removal to get them. For G1 i would try to get a Chalice at 2, because they have many Spells at cc2 and have to find a Decay in time (which has plenty of other targets :wink:). A well timed Obstinate Baloth can also counter Liliana of the Veil.

Also, why Misty Rainforest instead of Windswept Health? Mistake?

Can someone explain why Rolling Spoil has fallen out of favor?

pettdan

09-23-2015, 05:21 PM

Also, why Misty Rainforest instead of Windswept Health? Mistake?

Can someone explain why Rolling Spoil has fallen out of favor?

You're not playing basic plains, so there's no reason to indicate which color combination you are playing by using Windswept Heaths.

Rolling Spoil has fallen out of favor because Young Pyromancer is not as dominant a threat today as it was when Treasure Cruise was dominating the meta, or I think that's the reason. Now you need sweepers that take care of creatures with more than toughness 1 so Toxic Deluge is needed.

Memories of the Time

09-24-2015, 03:48 AM

MD.Ghost

09-28-2015, 09:33 AM

I m really uncertain about what deck to bring at ovino tournament next week between plug and nic fit pod. The two main reasons that deter me from take plug again is the high variance (although 4 gsz and 4 library reduce it) and the few versatility against rogue /casual deck. For the first problem I was thinking about an heavy land utility build with 2 crucible and 2 canopy plus tabernacle, other than 3 kotr.

About variance and versatility, have living wish and eladamri call been discussed and tested enough? I m really interested expecially in the first one

Edit: Thare are no ways to play without Trinisphere (i mean, only in sb?). Anyone has tested something?

Nic Fit has the same issuses with variance - you can also durdle around and topdeck Explorers/Lands/Therapy etc. if you don't need them anymore - in a Pod Shell you also have a lot of 1off Creatures that can be good/bad etc.

I played numerous Nic Fit Shells and find no one better - in case of variance and versatility - compared to Sylvan Plug (i run 4 Zenith, 3 Library, 1 Crucible). Sure with Plug you can also Topdeck useless Chokes/Trinisphere etc. but dont underestimate the combination of library, zenith, courser, knight, crucible and fetchlands, it really works well together.

A heavy land-utility build can also lead to much longer games/draws because you have to cut other good stuff like prison elements or the comparatively few creatures/beaters (win cons). The same problem will occur if you include spells like Living Wish and Eladamris Call. Yes you gain some more tutors/options/versatility but you will lose some other stuff. I also made sacrifices with the 4th Decay + Library + Trinisphere - but played a lot with the few slots to find good alternatives (Crucible, Garruk, 2nd Knight).

About the Cut of Trinisphere - i play only 3 main (and 1 side) but i see no way to play without them. They just fit perfectly together with Choke, Wastelands (Ghostquarter) etc. A build without them will lead to Aggro Loam, which leads to a better game plan against lots of "fair" stuff but you will lose a good amount of your combo (mainly OmniShow) matchups game 1. I also prefere to lock out Miracles with Spheres/Chokes compared to the PFire/Liliana Plan - sure Miracle will have some hard fights against the GP-Loam Lists, but in my experience the Plug.dec will simply destroy them (and it doesnt matter if with or without Mentor!).

I played some other decks the last weeks but some of our good regional players (spirit of the wretch) tried the core of my deck and immediately won a smallish tournament. Yesterday we both played at the same tournament (40 players) and he managed to get the 8th place. I would like to point out that he face many non-blue Matchups that gave him a hard fight over 6 rounds.

If we see no ban today - Plug will still be a very good predator in a blue meta.

EDIT: @Octopusman/Misty Rainforest - the reason is simply, first i own the blue-fetches and generally like a split of fetches, second open with a misty and no t1 play (for example if you can only drop chalice/sphere etc turn 2 - which is still ok!) can mislead some opponents.

Memories of the Time

09-28-2015, 11:27 AM

Thx Md.Ghost for the answer.
Pod Fit has Brainstorm plus top/library and Pod itself that reduce the variance: expecially brainstorm, obv.

Anyway, Dig ban. For this deck i think that it isn't a good news, because we'll find less blu and less omnitell and more Sneak&show.
In these days i'm testing a list without Chalice and i think that could be a way: now i'm very worried about this saturday Ovino

Octopusman

10-02-2015, 07:40 PM

I've very curious to hear how this deck is positioned after the ban. I literally just completed the deck so I am hoping for the best.

Octopusman

10-06-2015, 05:20 PM

MD.Ghost

10-07-2015, 06:31 AM

MD.Ghost I'm playing your list tonight. Let you know how it goes.

Any last minute tips? Specifically, what kind of board states (or decks) is it better to GSZ for Knight of the Reliquary vs. Courser first?

I'm tempted to abuse Courser on an open board. Going all-in on a big knight early seems reckless to me without establishing more control first, but would love to hear thoughts.

Kind regards,

Sorry for the delayed post - haven't seen it in time. Your first question really depends of the deck you face and your board. If you fear Abrupt Decay, rushing for a Knight might not be the best, because Decay.decks will also use Gofy and Knight is your best creature against this stupid beater (which can grow very big thanks to our artifacts/enchantments). If you managed to deploy some lockpieces and your Knight seems safe i would go for the Knight because it is important to close out games once you gain control with something like chalice, choke etc.

I rarely Zenith for Courser, this creature is mainly to stabilize the board and gain advantage for the long run, it feels like a kind of "plugs confidant" (compared to Aggro Loam) because you can easily profit from her abilities. She was really good with all the URx decks with TC/DTT because she blocked most stuff well enough and dodges bolts (red removal). Now with a uprise of BGx she lost some power (decay-able and can't block a gofy well).

We'll see how the meta devolopes. As a prison.deck, all the BGx Stuff (BUG Delver, Shardless, Jund) are challenging. If we see a rise of Elves and/or Sneak&Show it can also be a tough task to win (following the first pages, because Lejay developed the deck at TC-era, which also contained a lot of Elves and SneakShow stuff). As a predator of miracle this deck is still in a good shape and will also do well against DnT, Blade, etc.