Fate Reforged Thread [Archive] - Page 2

Lemnear

01-03-2015, 05:06 AM

I'm really curious what the people at R&D smoke... They made the Timewalk Delve spell more expensive than Treasure Cruise. Maybe they don't know that Ancestrall Recall is more powerful than Timewalk.

You can look at the rarity as well here. I would not be surprised if the mana cost was a last minute adjustment here after they saw the impact of Treasure Cruise. Sadly, this pretty much guarantees that we get a Delve Ancestral/Time Walk, but have absolutely no chance at Delver-versions of iconic Black or Green cards like Demonic Tutor, Bargain, Will, Channel (Delve x lands -> add x mana of any color to your manapool), etc.

Dice_Box

01-03-2015, 05:21 AM

I'm really curious what the people at R&D smoke... They made the Timewalk Delve spell more expensive than Treasure Cruise. Maybe they don't know that Ancestrall Recall is more powerful than Timewalk.

From the mana drain:

Seeing as how Ancestral Recall is miles and miles beyond Time Walk in terms of power;

Wow, that's untrue. Taking extra turns is the most powerful/abusive thing you can do in the game, not card draw.

I am going to go with Steven on this one.

aCatNamedBootsy

01-03-2015, 05:21 AM

You can look at the rarity as well here. I would not be surprised if the mana cost was a last minute adjustment here after they saw the impact of Treasure Cruise. Sadly, this pretty much guarantees that we get a Delve Ancestral/Time Walk, but have absolutely no chance at Delver-versions of iconic Black or Green cards like Demonic Tutor, Bargain, Will, Channel (Delve x lands -> add x mana of any color to your manapool), etc.

If there is a delve tutor it could still be uncommon or rare. There's also next set that it could be in as well.

Lemnear

01-03-2015, 05:47 AM

I am going to go with Steven on this one.

The quote applies to vintage, where you have many more game actions and mana per turn available compared to Legacy and isn't set into relation with manacosts at all. Stephen's right from an ideologic point of view, but this quote lacks the context to be true for Legacy.

If extra turns in Legacy were so powerful like they are in Vintage, Temporal Mastery would have broken the format in half with Ponder, Probe, Brainstorm in the Format, like Stephen predicted and we all knew wasn't nearly the case

If there is a delve tutor it could still be uncommon or rare. There's also next set that it could be in as well.

You don't think WotC realized in the meantime, that Delve is no proper way to balance cards for the Legacy cardpool? Tombstalker proofed years ago, that Delve is pretty damn good as a mechanic and their second take shook up the format. Delve is among the top 5 of the most broken mechanics WotC ever printed and you believe that WotC will feed us with more absurd Delve variants? Forget it

death

01-03-2015, 05:54 AM

I'm really curious what the people at R&D smoke... They made the Timewalk Delve spell more expensive than Treasure Cruise. Maybe they don't know that Ancestrall Recall is more powerful than Timewalk.

Yes and no. This depends on the situation and type of deck, if it's combo like storm draw 3 cards is golden when you're trying to win that same or following turn. If you have an 11/11 infect creature or if an opponent is facing lethal next turn then a Time Walk would end matters quickly. If Emrakul had draw 3 ETB effect, I would not play him in an Omniscience deck.

Generally speaking, draw 3 is more powerful since it generates more tempo than an extra turn, especially when a deck is built around tempo advantage, most decks in legacy are anyways.

Having said that, how many extra turn cards are unplayable: Final Fortune, Warrior's Oath, Time Warp, Time Stretch, Walk the Aeons, Temporal Mastery, now add Temporal Trespass on that list too.

How many draw cards are "free" or undercosted and now banned: Frantic Search, Gush, Wheel of Fortune, Windfall, Memory Jar, and Necropotence.

Adryan

01-03-2015, 06:16 AM

I don't understand the point of your post. A basic Forest can also be more powerful than Ancestral Recall....

YamiJoey

01-03-2015, 06:23 AM

You can look at the rarity as well here. I would not be surprised if the mana cost was a last minute adjustment here after they saw the impact of Treasure Cruise. Sadly, this pretty much guarantees that we get a Delve Ancestral/Time Walk, but have absolutely no chance at Delver-versions of iconic Black or Green cards like Demonic Tutor, Bargain, Will, Channel (Delve x lands -> add x mana of any color to your manapool), etc.

The cards have already been printed by the time the Cruise is in your hands.

Dice_Box

01-03-2015, 06:25 AM

If this thing was costed equal to Cruise, I think it would be a very different conversation. It's easy to say that Draw is better than taking another turn when all the cards that let you take extra turns are junk, but that doesn't mean the effect is not the stronger of the two.

death

01-03-2015, 06:38 AM

I don't understand the point of your post. A basic Forest can also be more powerful than Ancestral Recall....

I get your point.

Maybe we need something to come off the banlist that hurts Delver decks. I would suggest Vampiric Tutor.

Teveshszat

01-03-2015, 06:42 AM

Depending on the situation both can be the case. Because sometimes an extra turn is more worth than 3 additional cards and sometimes you just need the draw but not the extra phases and
Landdrop. So saying one of the card effects is inferior to the other is just to easy. If you want to evaluate this you have to look into example siuations and compare them against each other.

What I assume is that in Legeacy there are more siuations were you want 3 cards more than siuations were an complete turn is needed instead of the card advantage. Also since we
are talking about a limited resource game drawing 3 is an actual win condition which can´t be said for the extra turn in legacy. The reason for this is that you don´t have the same
amount of options you get with the Vintage Mana Artifacts and Lands.

Adryan

01-03-2015, 06:58 AM

We just have to take a look at Vintage to find out what is more powerful.

Lemnear

01-03-2015, 07:14 AM

We just have to take a look at Vintage to find out what is more powerful.

As I mentioned before, you can't draw parallels. There is a big difference between tapping out for your extra turn so you can only profit from an extra swing with your creatures (Temporal Mastery example) or pay only 1U and still have plenty of mana in addition to do stuff (enables by mana-artifacts and Tolarian Academy to follow up with Tinker, Dark Confidant, Demonic, Will, Draw7, etc).

There are worlds between the profit of an extra turn

Teveshszat

01-03-2015, 07:20 AM

Adryan
We just have to take a look at Vintage to find out what is more powerful.

This is plain wrong. As I allready tried to explain Vintage is totaly different from Legacy when you try to evaluate the usefullness of addtional turns. The reason is the different Manabase and
Options you get with it. Remember wer play a limited resource game and untapping an workshop is plainly more powerfull as untapping a random dualland. So most of the time you find
you wanting a timewalk in Vintage.
This is not the case for Legeacy were you don´t have the Mana Base of Vintage ans since this is different you can´t compare the formats regarding the powerlevel of an addtional turn.

Barook

01-03-2015, 07:55 AM

Extra turns are highly situational since they depend on your current board state to be actually good instead of being a glorified Explore.

3 extra cards are almost always useful and thus more powerful in a vacuum, but cheap extra turns are nothing to sneeze at. I actually could see a few Delve Timewalks work alongside TC in some kind of UWR deck with YP and Mentor where extra turn could easily result in massive extra damage/lethal.

aCatNamedBootsy

01-03-2015, 08:41 AM

You don't think WotC realized in the meantime, that Delve is no proper way to balance cards for the Legacy cardpool? Tombstalker proofed years ago, that Delve is pretty damn good as a mechanic and their second take shook up the format. Delve is among the top 5 of the most broken mechanics WotC ever printed and you believe that WotC will feed us with more absurd Delve variants? Forget it

Considering the fact that Treasure Cruise exists, that WOTC doesn't really test for Legacy, and that Fate Reforged was the last set of the block to be finalized for design and development I think there's at least the possibility that there could be a delve tutor variant showing up still.

Einherjer

01-03-2015, 08:44 AM

Delve-Balance, please?

death

01-03-2015, 08:48 AM

Yes. They can keep Treasure Cruise in the format. Give me Demonic Tutor and Balance!

Barook

01-03-2015, 08:52 AM

Delve-Balance, please?
Not in the BUG colors, so no.

Considering Concentrate and Diabolic Tutor, a Delve Tutor for :6::b::b: or :7::b::b: wouldn't seem unrealistic.

Lemnear

01-03-2015, 09:03 AM

Not in the BUG colors, so no.

Considering Concentrate and Diabolic Tutor, a Delve Tutor for :6::b::b: or :7::b::b: wouldn't seem unrealistic.

I'm not sure such a card is even playable because of Ad Nauseam and PIF existing and prohibiting the use, but it would at least present good will from WotC. So far we cannot say balance in printing exists:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=386613&type=card
http://mythicspoiler.com/ktk/cards/treasurecruise.jpg

death

01-03-2015, 09:20 AM

:6::b::b: or :7::b::b: is unplayable in Ad Nauseam, I can see it going in stand-alone PiF decks, or as Burning Wish target in TES. I will break it Omniscience, can't be countered by red blasts, seems good.

Asthereal

01-03-2015, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by Adryan:
"Maybe we need something to come off the banlist that hurts Delver decks. I would suggest Vampiric Tutor."

How about we unban Imperial Seal and reprint it? Or print a new version where you have to reveal the card you get? Vampiric Tutor is an instant, and that makes it too strong. At sorcery speed it may be okay to have in the meta. Especially if you reveal, so the opponent gets to prepare for what's coming.

Completely different point:
I just love how the Crucible of the Spirit Dragon cannot be used to cast Ugin, the Spirit Dragon.

Meekrab

01-04-2015, 12:21 PM

Completely different point:
I just love how the Crucible of the Spirit Dragon cannot be used to cast Ugin, the Spirit Dragon.
Err... yes it can?

Adryan

01-04-2015, 03:43 PM

All i want from this set is that they ban Treasure Cruise. It's so stupid when aggressive decks can reload their hand. Also very powerful cards decrease the skill in the game, another of many reasons to ban it...

Asthereal

01-04-2015, 05:20 PM

Err... yes it can?
Not the build-up mana storage thing. Ugin is a Planeswalker, not a Dragon.

Nina

01-05-2015, 01:02 AM

I would love to see really powerful, nonblue effects with Delve. Cards that could rival TC and DTT, and that forces players to make a choice (now there isn't really a choice, since DTT and TC are so much more powerful than anything else).

What about a Delve Demonic Tutor? Or a Delve Yawgmoth's Will (note the anti-synergy with itself, which makes it rather interesting)? I don't think Green has that many interesting effects you could slap Delve on.

What about red or white delve cards?

Imagine like 4R Devle Lightning Bolt or something...

I'd dig that...

edit/ I'd love delve balance, too...

Echelon

01-05-2015, 02:04 AM

What about red or white delve cards?

Imagine like 4R Devle Lightning Bolt or something...

I'd dig that...

Not going to happen b/c of flavor-issues.

apple713

01-05-2015, 02:31 AM

What about red or white delve cards?

Imagine like 4R Devle Lightning Bolt or something...

I'd dig that...

edit/ I'd love delve balance, too...

you didn't get the memo? all good delve cards must be blue...

Lemnear

01-05-2015, 03:40 AM

What about red or white delve cards?

Imagine like 4R Devle Lightning Bolt or something...

I'd dig that...

edit/ I'd love delve balance, too...

Delve is the Sultai aka BUG colored mechanic. It's totally off to talk red or white cards

Barook

01-05-2015, 11:29 AM

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/134/852/635560490198741839.png

Not sure which deck could use it as tech.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/134/851/635560490178953179.png

GSZ-able Figure of Destiny-type of card. Too bad the first two stages are unimpressive. Note that the third ability can be repeated, unlike Figure's "ultimate" which doesn't change results.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/134/850/635560490012152710.png

A 4/5 body for potentially :b:? Not too sure what's the best way to abuse his ability since you need to look for ways to reduce "bad" cards in your GY, and even then, there's still a rest risk that the top of your library gives you something terrible.

Darkenslight

01-05-2015, 11:30 AM

rufus

01-05-2015, 11:52 AM

So, from today's spoilers, nothing that instantly stands out as Legacy playable (except possibly War Slash, which is a Shock-effect with Flaring Pain upside). Modern and Commander, though, get some real goodies.

It seems like a card with potential. If you resolve a ferocious Wild Slash after True-Name Nemesis is declared as a blocker, it will take blocking damage and die. It might also be a nasty surprise for someone who's looking to cash in on lifelink.

Not too sure what's the best way to abuse his ability since you need to look for ways to reduce "bad" cards in your GY, and even then, there's still a rest risk that the top of your library gives you something terrible.

You can always cash in cards for value with something like Faithless Looting or Brainstorm. The activation cost is rather prohibitive in legacy though.

Cire

01-05-2015, 12:31 PM

This is a stupid idea - but I was just trying to see if you can combo Arcbond.

Let's say you cast it on an indestructible creature, and you have an en-Kor creature in play. If you deal 1 damage to indestructible, Cast Arcbond, on it, then keep on redirecting the damage that would be dealt to the en-Kor creature back to the indestructible, destroy every other creature, and kill the player with the lowest life total.

Does that work? I know it's not a legacy playable combo - but just fun to think about.

(actually do you even need the original creature to be indestructible in this scenario? Can't you just deal a billion damage to it regardless, and only resolve that damage in the end? Or do you need to resolve each point individually due to the en-kor?)

survival

01-05-2015, 01:43 PM

Am I the only one who thinks something like this could be good?

4 stoneforge mystic
4 monastery mentor

4 sensei's divining top
4 counterbalnce
1 umezawa's jitte
1 batterskull

4 gitaxian probe
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 swords to plowshares
4 force of will
4 treasure cruise

4 tundra
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
3 marsh flats
2 island
1 plains

Double sensei + mentor = lots of triggers, and if you're gonna be playing 4 senseis you might as well fit in counterbalance.

rufus

01-05-2015, 01:51 PM

This is a stupid idea - but I was just trying to see if you can combo Arcbond.

....

(actually do you even need the original creature to be indestructible in this scenario? Can't you just deal a billion damage to it regardless, and only resolve that damage in the end? Or do you need to resolve each point individually due to the en-kor?)

I think you have to actually resolve the damage for the trigger to take effect.

Since arcbond causes the creature to deal damage, you could also loop it with Veteran Bodyguard.

You could possibly do silly stuff with Blood Hound or War Elemental.

There's some explosive potential with Simulacrum.

rufus

01-05-2015, 01:53 PM

...

Double sensei + mentor = lots of triggers, and if you're gonna be playing 4 senseis you might as well fit in counterbalance.

There's discussion about that in other threads. I expect that -4 mentor +2 terminus +2 entreat the angels would make for a better deck.

HdH_Cthulhu

01-05-2015, 07:17 PM

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/134/850/635560490012152710.png

A 4/5 body for potentially :b:? Not too sure what's the best way to abuse his ability since you need to look for ways to reduce "bad" cards in your GY, and even then, there's still a rest risk that the top of your library gives you something terrible.

Well maybe delve is a way to reduce bad card in your gy!? Then with Top you control whats going into the gy. Prolly way too mana intesive, but maybe in a rock deck with exploration...

@Arcbond/enKor: You are looking for stuffy doll xD But if you play stuffy doll and en-kors, I will try my best to not dmg the en-kors or doll at all...

Barook

01-05-2015, 09:46 PM

I can't see Arcbound being viable since it would cost tons of mana and a set-up of at least 3 cards.

HdH_Cthulhu

01-05-2015, 10:00 PM

I can't see Arcbound being viable since it would cost tons of mana and a set-up of at least 3 cards.

Nobody thinks it is viable, but stuffy doll and en-kors are already in the timmy.deck, so its at least... sometihng!?

Tylert

01-06-2015, 05:06 AM

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/134/850/635560490012152710.png

A 4/5 body for potentially :b:? Not too sure what's the best way to abuse his ability since you need to look for ways to reduce "bad" cards in your GY, and even then, there's still a rest risk that the top of your library gives you something terrible.

Remove 5 bad cards from your graveyard with the delve ability?
Is tombstalker played for it's evasive ability or for the low cost high P/T ratio?
If it's the later, I guess this guy is highly playable considering that it has integrated CA... In legacy getting the worstcard from your graveyard is still good...

EDIT: forget about that: I completely forgot about the activation cost :)

apple713

01-06-2015, 05:15 AM

Remove 5 bad cards from your graveyard with the delve ability?
Is tombstalker played for it's evasive ability or for the low cost high P/T ratio?
If it's the later, I guess this guy is highly playable considering that it has integrated CA... In legacy getting the worstcard from your graveyard is still good...

EDIT: forget about that: I completely forgot about the activation cost :)

its probably more about the evasive ability because cheap creatures without good abilities are falling out of favor in legacy. creatures like goyf get chumped by YP tokens / TNN and other stuff. fly like a delver, horde like a YP, be a god like TNN, cheat something into play like SFM... thats what legacy has become.

YamiJoey

01-06-2015, 07:16 AM

No-one in Legacy is resolving Shock with a 4/x in play unless it's a Batterskull. The decks taking advantage of it have Goblin Guide. Those decks have Skullcrack for these matchups.

iamajellydonut

01-06-2015, 08:23 AM

its probably more about the evasive ability because cheap creatures without good abilities are falling out of favor in legacy.

There's no point in arguing whether its power or toughness or aggressive cost or flying matters more, because the truth is that Tombstalker would be shit if it was lacking any of them. It's the combination of the four that makes Tombstalker into the most obstinate creature in Legacy.

That being said, while this new fellow is intriguing, he's shit. Yes, he provides card advantage. Yes, card advantage is good. But for all that invested mana you're going to be getting back a turn twenty Thoughtseize or Daze. You'd have to impeccably sculpt your graveyard in order to get anything different, and even then there's a chance you can win back yet another Veteran Explorer off the mill instead of returning that Liliana of the Veil you actually need.

Tylert

01-06-2015, 08:29 AM

Worldly tutor for sage of hours + Wild call (GGX sorcery: manifest the top card of your library, put X +1/+1 counters on it) for 5 = additionnal turn!!
OMG this set is full of shitty combos :)

rufus

01-06-2015, 09:47 AM

Worldly tutor for sage of hours + Wild call (GGX sorcery: manifest the top card of your library, put X +1/+1 counters on it) for 5 = additionnal turn!!
OMG this set is full of shitty combos :)

What, no love for Soul Summons/Wild Call + Enligtened Tutor/Worldly Tutor + Phyrexian Dreadnaught?

Bonus question: How does Angelic Renewal interact with manifest?

Barook

01-06-2015, 10:13 AM

What, no love for Soul Summons/Wild Call + Enligtened Tutor/Worldly Tutor + Phyrexian Dreadnaught?

Bonus question: How does Angelic Renewal interact with manifest?
8 ways to set up Dreadnought + 8 ways to flip it? In a nonblue deck? :really: Might be cool.

Angelic Renewal should return the card as its original, not as Manifest creature, since it was in the yard in the meantime.

I'm not to sure what to think about this card:

Reality Shift :1::u:
Instant
Exile target creature. Its controller manifests the top card of his or her library.

It's one mana more expensive than Pongify, but also exiles the creature and the creature it leaves behind is smaller.

(nameless one)

01-06-2015, 10:17 AM

Mastery of the Unseen seems like an Armageddon Stax type of card: http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/134/886/635561271064915953.jpg

Spam the board with resistors, nuke the lands, finish the game by turning dead draws into 2/2s.

rufus

01-06-2015, 10:45 AM

...
Angelic Renewal should return the card as its original, not as Manifest creature, since it was in the yard in the meantime.
...

And if the card was an instant or sorcery?

TsumiBand

01-06-2015, 11:34 AM

And if the card was an instant or sorcery?

Rule 304.4 states that if an Instant would enter the battlefield, it remains in the previous zone instead. The same rule for Sorceries is 307.4. So in the case of Angelic Renewal, it cannot move the card to the battlefield.

This applies to Cloudshift and friends as well, unless they start dickering with the rules for this release, just in case some crazy card somewhere allows for face-down creatures to be turned face-up without paying their Morph/Manifest/Illusionary Mask/whatever-else cost. So exiling a creature to Astral Slide, only to find out it is actually Rootborn Defenses, will just leave the card in exile when it tries to return.

iamajellydonut

01-06-2015, 11:42 AM

Rule 304.4 states that if an Instant would enter the battlefield, it remains in the previous zone instead. The same rule for Sorceries is 307.4. So in the case of Angelic Renewal, it cannot move the card to the battlefield.

What if it never changes zones. (http://magiccards.info/scans/en/on/190.jpg)

I'm just waiting for the FAQ. However they determine it to work, it's going to be a load of contrived bullshit. There's a reason why "instants with morph", aside from that it's a dumb fucking idea, was unanimously considered to be a terrible YMtC concept.

Richard Cheese

01-06-2015, 11:51 AM

.dk

01-06-2015, 12:03 PM

Anybody think this looks interesting?

Mastery of the Unseen
1W
Enchantment
Whenever a permanent you control is turned face up, you gain 1 life for each creature you control.

3W: Manifest the top card of your library.

Seems like a pretty decent tool for combating Miracles, especially for something like Maverick. Possibly also good in Miracles?

I know everyone is in love with treasure cruise right now, but this seems insane with Standstill, Sensei's Divining Top, and Dreadnought.

YamiJoey

01-06-2015, 12:03 PM

That card is so overpowered. If you resolve that, you never have to cast another Spell against Control as long as the game goes on. It's basically a White Bitterblossom, with marginal upsides.

iamajellydonut

01-06-2015, 12:07 PM

Anybody think this looks interesting?

Mastery of the Unseen
1W
Enchantment
Whenever a permanent you control is turned face up, you gain 1 life for each creature you control.

3W: Manifest the top card of your library.

Seems like a pretty decent tool for combating Miracles, especially for something like Maverick. Possibly also good in Miracles?

So, assuming you never turn anything face up, which is a logical assumption, it's basically a repeatable engine that charges 4cc for a 2/2.

That is not a unique snowflake. From Sacred Mesa to Luminarch Ascension, there are dozens of white creature generators that do the same thing better.

.dk

01-06-2015, 12:10 PM

TsumiBand

01-06-2015, 12:12 PM

What if it never changes zones. (http://magiccards.info/scans/en/on/190.jpg)

I'm just waiting for the FAQ. However they determine it to work, it's going to be a load of contrived bullshit. There's a reason why "instants with morph", aside from that it's a dumb fucking idea, was unanimously considered to be a terrible YMtC concept.

Oh good, Break Open. I was talking about Angelic Renewal specifically, but thank you for reminding me that this horribad card is a thing.

I expect they'll append something to the current rules for face-down creatures; there is something in there for turning face-down spells face-up, but I understand that to mean spells on the stack, not spells under an already-in-play 2/2.

iamajellydonut

01-06-2015, 12:13 PM

Except those can't make a 12/12 trampler for 1.

He was speaking with regards to beating combo and being combo. If you're speaking with regards to making a 12/12 trampler (which would be for 5cc plus manipulation via Mastery of the Unseen), then use whatever fukken Manifest enabler you want.

iamajellydonut

01-06-2015, 12:20 PM

Cire

01-06-2015, 12:34 PM

TsumiBand

01-06-2015, 12:38 PM

Holy shit. Humble Defector.

Humble Defector - 1R
Creature -Human Rogue
T: Draw two cards. Target opponent gains control of ~. Activate this ability only during your turn.

Edit: And two cards that do the exact same thing...
http://mythicspoiler.com/frf/cards/formlessnurturing.jpg
http://mythicspoiler.com/frf/cards/fierceinvocation.jpg

Well, almost the same thing - the red one costs more and puts two counters, not just one. But yeah.

Defector is probably a lot better than I think it is; I think my brain is poisoned by all these Jeskai Ascendency lists that are showing up everywhere because that was the first deck I thought of for that turd. I mean, sure a dedicated deck could do tricks with like untapping it with its ability on the stack, but it'd need to have a handful of other cromulent tricks up its butt to make it a worthwhile venture. Unless you're geeking out about homeward_path.deck or something equally malfeasant.

joven

01-06-2015, 12:44 PM

Humble Defector + Homeward Path
Question is if it's really worth to run that "combo"?

Barook

01-06-2015, 12:51 PM

Humble Defector + Homeward Path
Question is if it's really worth to run that "combo"?
It works pretty well with multiple Defectors. :1:, tap two Defectors, draw 4? Yeah, I would take that. Note that Defector can be fetched with Imperial Recruiter.

Are there any other good combos with Homeward Path?

iamajellydonut

01-06-2015, 12:54 PM

Humble Defector + Homeward Path
Question is if it's really worth to run that "combo"?

The Johnny in me just peed a little.

btm10

01-06-2015, 12:54 PM

Oh good, Break Open. I was talking about Angelic Renewal specifically, but thank you for reminding me that this horribad card is a thing.

I expect they'll append something to the current rules for face-down creatures; there is something in there for turning face-down spells face-up, but I understand that to mean spells on the stack, not spells under an already-in-play 2/2.

Based on conversations with Judge friends, they issued rules notes on manifesting Instants and Sorceries recently; if a card is turned face up after being manifested it checks to see if it's in the right zone, so Instants and Sorceries go the graveyard and have no effect because they weren't cast and can't be on the battlefield. Creatures, Artifacts, Enchantments, and Planeswalkers remain in play.

iamajellydonut

01-06-2015, 12:56 PM

they issued rules notes on manifesting Instants and Sorceries recently; if a card is turned face up after being manifested it checks to see if it's in the right zone, so Instants and Sorceries go the graveyard and have no effect because they weren't cast and can't be on the battlefield.

Manifest was a great fucking idea. -_-

rufus

01-06-2015, 01:00 PM

Does humble defector work with instant untap effects? Or am I imagining it?

(I mean you never let his ability resolve, so you won't actually draw the two cards till everything resolves, but can't you keep untapping him, and then tapping him over and over?)

Yes, since the transfer of control is part of the effect.

Defector might be for Zedruu the Greathearted EDH.

That said, he seems not terrible on his own since he can chump block and then activate.

rufus

01-06-2015, 01:04 PM

It works pretty well with multiple Defectors. :1:, tap two Defectors, draw 4? Yeah, I would take that. Note that Defector can be fetched with Imperial Recruiter.

Are there any other good combos with Homeward Path?

Puca's Mischief, or Perplexing Chimera maybe Gilded Drake?

Edit: Treacherous Pit-Dweller

Richard Cheese

01-06-2015, 01:11 PM

So, assuming you never turn anything face up, which is a logical assumption, it's basically a repeatable engine that charges 4cc for a 2/2.

That is not a unique snowflake. From Sacred Mesa to Luminarch Ascension, there are dozens of white creature generators that do the same thing better.

Why would you assume you're never turning anything face up? Keep Teeg face down until there's a miracle trigger on the stack. Get a Goyf or Knight through Counterbalance. With Sylvan or Top in play this can also help you power through the top of your library, turning dead draws like lands, and StP into a clock. It also gives any creature on top pseudo-haste to help kill Jaces. There's just a lot of potential there that the average token generator doesn't have.

Barook

01-06-2015, 01:16 PM

Puca's Mischief, or Perplexing Chimera maybe Gilded Drake?
Gilded Drake would give you the Drake back, but also the creature you stole to your opponent.

That said, he seems not terrible on his own since he can chump block and then activate.
Doesn't activating it remove it from combat after it changed control?

tescrin

01-06-2015, 01:20 PM

Except those can't make a 12/12 trampler for 1.

Neither does this. It takes a minimum 7 mana to get there (1 + 2 + 4.) Further it's weak to any legacy kill spell in the process and you have to set it up with top, jace, or brainstorm (or be inherently lucky.) So you're likely paying 8 mana for said trampler across multiple turns, all while getting beaten to death by a batterskull that costed 4 mana.

The only thing that makes this better than the Cleric God or Luminarch is that it doesn't cost 4 mana to start off and it doesn't take 4 turns to get going. I could see it played potentially. However, unlike bitterblossom it's at most a 2-of IMO, as the mana reqs are too high. Bitterblossom is 2 mana and makes evasive dudes for free, and it sees no play.

Cire

01-06-2015, 01:20 PM

rufus

01-06-2015, 01:22 PM

The hunted cycle?

They changed the token rules so that doesn't work anymore.

Darkenslight

01-06-2015, 01:23 PM

Doesn't activating it remove it from combat after it changed control?

Either way, it doesn't work as the Defector has a "your turn only" clause. So it can't block then activate. Stil highly amusing with green and blue untappers.

Cire

01-06-2015, 01:25 PM

They changed the token rules so that doesn't work anymore.

Was wondering why Haunted Horror + Homeward Path wasn't a thing. That sucks.

Barook

01-06-2015, 01:31 PM

Containment Priest stops manifest, right?

Neither does this. It takes a minimum 7 mana to get there (1 + 2 + 4.) Further it's weak to any legacy kill spell in the process and you have to set it up with top, jace, or brainstorm (or be inherently lucky.) So you're likely paying 8 mana for said trampler across multiple turns, all while getting beaten to death by a batterskull that costed 4 mana.
I don't think Mastery is the way to go if you want to go for the Dreadnought combo route. G/W Mirage tutors + Soul Summons + Wild Call are probably better for that since they're 1+2+1 mana investements and two card combos that are exchangable.

Hard to say what the rest of the deck would look like, though.

@Cire: Hunted tokens are owned by the opponent, that was changed years ago. Otherwise Brand would be pretty nifty as well.

rufus

01-06-2015, 01:33 PM

Either way, it doesn't work as the Defector has a "your turn only" clause. So it can't block then activate. Stil highly amusing with green and blue untappers.

Yeah, it could be derpy with Mind over Matter and Anger or some other way give it haste.

Also useable with sacrifice instant effects like Altar's Reap or Perilous Research.

iamajellydonut

01-06-2015, 01:37 PM

Also useable with sacrifice instant effects like Altar's Reap or Perilous Research.

If you're going this route, you're probably still better off with Hatching Plans.

Barook

01-06-2015, 01:42 PM

Starke of Rath is also a thing with Homeward Path.

(nameless one)

01-06-2015, 01:49 PM

Anybody think this looks interesting?

Mastery of the Unseen
1W
Enchantment
Whenever a permanent you control is turned face up, you gain 1 life for each creature you control.

3W: Manifest the top card of your library.

Seems like a pretty decent tool for combating Miracles, especially for something like Maverick. Possibly also good in Miracles?

Mastery of the Unseen seems like an Armageddon Stax type of card: http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/134/886/635561271064915953.jpg

Spam the board with resistors, nuke the lands, finish the game by turning dead draws into 2/2s.

TsumiBand

01-06-2015, 02:01 PM

Based on conversations with Judge friends, they issued rules notes on manifesting Instants and Sorceries recently; if a card is turned face up after being manifested it checks to see if it's in the right zone, so Instants and Sorceries go the graveyard and have no effect because they weren't cast and can't be on the battlefield. Creatures, Artifacts, Enchantments, and Planeswalkers remain in play.

I figured it'd be something like this.

That's actually kind of fine, right, I mean - what's the alternative. Exile? Understandable; a bit like 8-bit Super Mario standing up in a cavern that he doesn't have room to stand up in, the game "pushes" him towards the nearest empty space or something. Just be glad it doesn't shit the spell onto the stack, there would be all kinds of boring shenanigans trying to get spells under Manifest overlays just to cast Time Durdle for :1::w:. No thank you sir.

danyul

01-06-2015, 02:03 PM

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/134/891/635561392685196367.jpg

GG. I quit Magic. The actual reality being shifted is the damn color pie.

Cire

01-06-2015, 02:05 PM

That's been in blues color pie since Pongify.

danyul

01-06-2015, 02:09 PM

Wait. I just reread it and gave it some thought. You might be right. The world is not ending. I'll be okay.

And with that, I've encompassed the entire emotional spectrum of spoiler season in two posts. Must be a personal record.

iamajellydonut

01-06-2015, 02:14 PM

That's been in blues color pie since Pongify.

Shit, Pognify? Try Polymorph.

Ace/Homebrew

01-06-2015, 02:14 PM

GG. I quit Magic. The actual reality is I'm going to eat some colorful pie.

FTFY :cool:

danyul

01-06-2015, 02:25 PM

FTFY :cool:

Thx bro. I've calmed down. You adults go on discussing your magickal wizard papers now.

mlschuma

01-06-2015, 02:52 PM

Barook

01-06-2015, 03:13 PM

We Kamigawa names now!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6sGZ1kCAAA-isA.png

I wonder if there are any decks that could utilize it.

Cire

01-06-2015, 03:45 PM

We Kamigawa names now!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6sGZ1kCAAA-isA.png

I wonder if there are any decks that could utilize it.

There are a lot of utility creatures that this could bring back like: Stingscourger. But I am more interested in being CWAZY: Master of Cruelties? Could be an instant kill if no blockers?

Some other fun - high cost, low power creatures:

Brass Herald - Give your guy a +1/+1 plus search for other humans?
Duplicant - Remove a blocker, and attack with that said blocker!
Gigantomancer - make both your guys 7/7's
Trostani's Summoner - Get 9 power worth of tokens.
Vedalken Dismisser - Be really annoying.

Barook

01-06-2015, 03:52 PM

maharis

01-06-2015, 03:55 PM

We Kamigawa names now! I wonder if there are any decks that could utilize it.

Dega! Bob, SFM, DRS, Mirran Crusader. <3 this guy

Barook

01-06-2015, 03:59 PM

Dega! Bob, SFM, DRS, Mirran Crusader. <3 this guy
For what it's worth, it combines also well with Avalanche Riders.

So, this guy, Faithless Looting, + X (could Entomb, Liliana, whatever)?

Cire

01-06-2015, 04:05 PM

I was thinking artifacts - dropping stuff like duplicant into the yard and running thirst and Dack.

Dega is always a trap - Grixis is just better

maharis

01-06-2015, 04:11 PM

For what it's worth, it combines also well with Avalanche Riders. So, this guy, Faithless Looting, + X (could Entomb, Liliana, whatever)?

Good call. Ravenous Baboons and Fulminator Mage are other land destruction options.

I think I like Mom to protect him. I see he's not Imperial Recruiter eligible, haha.

Balefire Liege is a thing.

Braids! Sac her every turn, bring her back, ???, profit?

Finn

01-06-2015, 04:19 PM

Humble Defector with Homeward Path should be good. We should be excited. But compare it with Treasure Cruise for a moment. It is not even on the same planet in terms of power level.

How the fuck have we simply accepted that Treasure Cruise and a Dig through Time are just part of the game? They are well beyond reasonable.

M+1

01-06-2015, 04:37 PM

Humble Defector is great sideboard tech for monored burn against Leyline of Sanctity.
Then you can draw three cards per turn, and.. oh wait. Still can't win.

Barook

01-06-2015, 04:47 PM

Humble Defector is great sideboard tech for monored burn against Leyline of Sanctity.
Then you can draw three cards per turn, and.. oh wait. Still can't win.
How about going oldschool with Disk or Anarchy?

Humble Defector with Homeward Path should be good. We should be excited. But compare it with Treasure Cruise for a moment. It is not even on the same planet in terms of power level.

How the fuck have we simply accepted that Treasure Cruise and a Dig through Time are just part of the game? They are well beyond reasonable.
Unless the opponent has some ways to get rid of it, it's +2 cards for each activation. TC is dumb, but might get banned in the next update, who knows.

apple713

01-06-2015, 05:38 PM

Good call. Ravenous Baboons and Fulminator Mage are other land destruction options.

I think I like Mom to protect him. I see he's not Imperial Recruiter eligible, haha.

Balefire Liege is a thing.

Braids! Sac her every turn, bring her back, ???, profit?

you have to think bigger... this card isn't worth playing at all....he doesn't fit into burn, and there are no red ago decks. Dragon stompy can't use him. He's not strong enough to combo around. he's just another standard card that falls to the wayside.

Cire

01-06-2015, 06:06 PM

Unless the opponent has some ways to get rid of it, it's +2 cards for each activation. TC is dumb, but might get banned in the next update, who knows.

Or run both?

Richard Cheese

01-06-2015, 06:21 PM

There are a lot of utility creatures that this could bring back like: Stingscourger. But I am more interested in being CWAZY: Master of Cruelties? Could be an instant kill if no blockers?

Some other fun - high cost, low power creatures:

Brass Herald - Give your guy a +1/+1 plus search for other humans?
Duplicant - Remove a blocker, and attack with that said blocker!
Gigantomancer - make both your guys 7/7's
Trostani's Summoner - Get 9 power worth of tokens.
Vedalken Dismisser - Be really annoying.

A few other fun things to do:

Sekki, Seasons' Guide
Triskelion
Ignition Team
Hornet Queen
Auriok Salvagers

LIKEABOSS

01-06-2015, 06:52 PM

Humble Defector is great sideboard tech for monored burn against Leyline of Sanctity.
Then you can draw three cards per turn, and.. oh wait. Still can't win.

*coughcoughHOMEWARDPATHcoughcough*
Maybe this could see play in painter?

TsumiBand

01-06-2015, 06:59 PM

Alesha works with all kinds of wack-a-mole cards.

The Phantom line from Judgment (up to and including Phantom Nishoba - hubba hubba)
Crovax the Cursed - lol
Guiltfeeder
Minion of the Wastes - jib jib jib! (probably master of cruelties is just better, but)
Savage Firecat
Sutured Ghoul
Wall of Blood --- so, that's interesting. Much like Kaalia of the Vast and Slumbering Dragon, this ability doesn't care about defender whatsoever; you just put the thing in already attacking, and the game gives no fucks. +1 for judgebreaking while also playing aggro.
Belfry Spirit (not terribly impressive, I just like Haunt.)
Big Game Hunter nice emrakul, jerk
any number of cards with "Shade" in the title or creature type
Norin the Wary
Ebonblade Reaper
Fiend Hunter
Faceless Butcher
Order of Whiteclay --- comboooooo
Peacekeeper

..... man Gatherer says there's a bunch of creatures with power <= 2

rufus

01-06-2015, 07:42 PM

Humble Defector with Homeward Path should be good. We should be excited. But compare it with Treasure Cruise for a moment. ...

Because they are such different cards, it's not all that clear to me.

Finn

01-06-2015, 08:16 PM

But you are correct, Alesha + Master = instagibI am pretty sure that this does not work at all. I think that both effects are triggers that go on the stack at "announce attackers". Once Master of Cruelties is on the battlefield, the time for its trigger to go on the stack has come and gone.

Oh wait. Scratch that. I thought it was a delayed IF. In fact, I thought there was such a thing. Gatherer says that the trigger goes on the stack during declare blockers. My bad.

Order of Whiteclay --- combooooooThis one I think does not work. (God, let me be right about this one.) It does not have haste.

Cire

01-06-2015, 08:23 PM

Alesha can even make a Peacekeeper fight :laugh:

more thoughts:

Sower of Temptation
Siege-Gang Commander
Knight-Captain of Eos
Doran, the Siege Tower
Solemn Simulacrum
Stonehorn Dignitary (soft combot lock with a sac outlet)
Acidic Slime
Prime Speaker Zegana (Draw 4 I think)
Silverblade Paladin (attack for 10 power)
Mindclaw Shaman (I'll cast that TC thank you)
Karmic Guide (Start some combo. . . or just get another creature out?)

rufus

01-06-2015, 08:54 PM

Alesha can even make a Peacekeeper fight :laugh:

more thoughts:
...

Has anyone mentioned Imperial Recruiter,Mulldrifter or Bone Shredder?

On the theme of more bad ideas, there are The Mimeoplasm piles.

TsumiBand

01-06-2015, 08:54 PM

This one I think does not work. (God, let me be right about this one.) It does not have haste.

Oh fuck, untap symbol checks summoning sickness. God I hate untap symbol.

maharis

01-06-2015, 09:03 PM

lim-dul's paladin

You bring it back, get in for 4 or 6 trample if they block. Then in your next upkeep you let it die and draw a card. Then you do it again. God I love janky engines.

iamajellydonut

01-06-2015, 09:38 PM

So, just to recap, we are trying replace Reanimate->Griseldick with Triskelion, a 2cc trigger, and a 2cc creature that doesn't have haste?

Cire

01-06-2015, 09:52 PM

So, just to recap, we are trying replace Reanimate->Griseldick with Triskelion, a 2cc trigger, and a 2cc creature that doesn't have haste?

You must be the life of the party :tongue:

GenghisTom

01-06-2015, 11:54 PM

Alesha is a great cube card, not for Legacy though...
Might be good in EDH/Modern/Standard but I don't know those formats at all

rufus

01-07-2015, 12:03 AM

So, just to recap, we are trying replace Reanimate->Griseldick with Triskelion, a 2cc trigger, and a 2cc creature that doesn't have haste?

I was thinking more in terms of Balthor the Defiled jr. in some kind of 'Rat Pack' deck. It's probably not up to snuff though.

TsumiBand

01-07-2015, 09:17 AM

So, just to recap, we are trying replace Reanimate->Griseldick with Triskelion, a 2cc trigger, and a 2cc creature that doesn't have haste?

Didn't you just jizz the ceiling over some pile with Soulfire Grand Master, Blasphemous Act, Swans of Brys-Arghsomething, Chain of Plasma, and a whole lot of moving parts though? Like in this thread even :)

I think people are more interested in the utility of an aggro guy that can keep guys in play, though it is encouraging to the Johnny aspect of many players that it has a power check instead of a CMC check. It opens the door for every goofy 0/0 and a fair number of */* guys to jump out of the graveyard with pseudo-haste.

Arguably, a deck like Deadguy could attempt a Red splash to see if this guy matters a damn. That's the dream I want to live right there, effin Mardu Deadguy - "I attack with Alesha and some dudes that don't matter, and one of them has a Sword of Feast and Famine; I activate Alesha's ability, returning Necrotic Sliver; I damages you, I untap my lands and you discard; I sac that Necrotic Sliver on your land spells; I drink my Dr. Pepper and order a steak."

iamajellydonut

01-07-2015, 09:20 AM

Didn't you just jizz the ceiling over some pile with Soulfire Grand Master, Blasphemous Act, Swans of Brys-Arghsomething, Chain of Plasma, and a whole lot of moving parts though? Like in this thread even :)

Yeah, but that's a good combo. B^)

Lysandros

01-07-2015, 10:01 AM

Edited: NVMND, misread the card

Kage

01-07-2015, 11:10 AM

I've long accepted the fact that Wizards primarily designs new sets with limited/standard and casual/EDH people in mind, and that there's a drastic reduction in power level.

Still, this set is just sooo boring. Just take a look at legendary creatures for EDH; this guy steals your opponent's creatures, this distributes it's +1/+1 counters to other creatures, this revives your dead creatures, this gives your creature double strike. Creatures, creatures, creatures and more creatures. So far there are only 2 cards which do not have the word 'creature' on them, Delve Walk and Blue Siege. Hell they have even started to shift half the removal into 'fight' effects. Is it that hard to come up with something unique and fresh?

Zupponn

01-07-2015, 12:00 PM

Call me a simple man, but I just want to sac Humble Defector to something like Carrion Feeder or Goblin Bombardment.

TsumiBand

01-07-2015, 04:22 PM

Call me a simple man, but I just want to sac Humble Defector to something like Carrion Feeder or Goblin Bombardment.

Right. That's probably fair use.

Like honestly, tangent and whatnot - I kind of dig the weird Red draw spells as of like. Dangerous Wager, like I wasn't topdecking anyway, right? Faithless Looting, because Careful Study got better somehow by just not being Blue. Would just love to see something worth casting in the Fling/Reckless Abandon spectrum to turn this dude into trebuchet ammo, but I don't think there is any such thing.

Lemnear

01-07-2015, 04:38 PM

I think Alesha is amazing with all the red looting effects to dump creatures and create cardadvantage off the graveyard. Not groundbreaking, but fancy

Too bad Humble Defector is not Legendary. If paired with Karakas it would have been a nice draw engine for RW. Missed opportunity

wonderPreaux

01-07-2015, 05:06 PM

Too bad Humble Defector is not Legendary. If paired with Karakas it would have been a nice draw engine for RW. Missed opportunity

I feel like that'd be quite the flavor-fail to make a notable humble entity a legend.

rufus

01-07-2015, 05:25 PM

Like honestly, tangent and whatnot - I kind of dig the weird Red draw spells as of like. Dangerous Wager, like I wasn't topdecking anyway, right? Faithless Looting, because Careful Study got better somehow by just not being Blue. Would just love to see something worth casting in the Fling/Reckless Abandon spectrum to turn this dude into trebuchet ammo, but I don't think there is any such thing.

Faithless Looting does have that flashback. Grab the Reins does come close (though 3R is probably too much.) Custody Battle is another fun option.

I looked a little, and I still haven't found anything that looks better than Humble Defector + Mind over Matter trading the cards in hand 1-for-2 using Threaten[cards] effects to repeat the process, and finishing with [cards]Laboratory Maniac. Stuff like Fatestitcher and Tidal Bore would probably fit in well.

Barook

01-07-2015, 06:07 PM

I feel like that'd be quite the flavor-fail to make a notable humble entity a legend.
The entire flavor behind it is retarded when you think about it - why do YOU get cards (aka info) when some dude runs off the the enemy?

Flavorwise, it would make sense of the opponent gained cards alongside with the defector.

Cire

01-07-2015, 06:07 PM

Frost Walker 1U
Creature - Elemental
When Frost Walker becomes the target of a spell or ability, sacrifice it.
4/1

I just find Sulking funny on a card with 1 toughness. . . why does it matter? Isn't sulking supposed to make it so the opponent tries to target it with random stuff instead of just trying to kill it?

I looked a little, and I still haven't found anything that looks better than Humble Defector + Mind over Matter trading the cards in hand 1-for-2 using Threaten[cards] effects to repeat the process, and finishing with [cards]Laboratory Maniac. Stuff like Fatestitcher and Tidal Bore would probably fit in well.

I still think the homeward path is the best card to "combo" it. Punishing Fires is a 2 mana "combo" and it works out, this is essentially the same thing, but is 1) more susceptible to removal and 2) active 1 turn later, but 3) it draws 2 cards instead of does 2(plus 1 life) damage.

tescrin

01-07-2015, 06:53 PM

Frost Walker 1U
Creature - Elemental
When Frost Walker becomes the target of a spell or ability, sacrifice it.
4/1

I just find Sulking funny on a card with 1 toughness. . . why does it matter? Isn't sulking supposed to make it so the opponent tries to target it with random stuff instead of just trying to kill it?

It means you can't enchant or equip it, which is relevant. It also dies to Giant Growth, Jump, or Mother of Runes. It's interesting you don't notice this given you are talking about Oppression in the very same post.

For standard/limited it basically means you can't turn something with such a huge front end into a nightmare by enchanting it. In standard it means that it you could use it to push through Courser/Caryatid etc.. with your aggro deck but you couldn't use it as your primary beater against Token makers. I applaud the aggressive and balanced nature of the drawback. Not being an illusion is a little weird, but that means that I have one more Ice card for my casual Ice deck :P

GenghisTom

01-07-2015, 07:59 PM

Cire

01-07-2015, 08:20 PM

It means you can't enchant or equip it, which is relevant. It also dies to Giant Growth, Jump, or Mother of Runes. It's interesting you don't notice this given you are talking about Oppression in the very same post.

For standard/limited it basically means you can't turn something with such a huge front end into a nightmare by enchanting it. In standard it means that it you could use it to push through Courser/Caryatid etc.. with your aggro deck but you couldn't use it as your primary beater against Token makers. I applaud the aggressive and balanced nature of the drawback. Not being an illusion is a little weird, but that means that I have one more Ice card for my casual Ice deck :P

where do I talk about oppression? :eyebrow:

01-07-2015, 08:38 PM

Call me a simple man, but I just want to sac Humble Defector to something like Carrion Feeder or Goblin Bombardment.

This is exactly what I was thinking. Certainly gives that deck some life.

Phelix

01-08-2015, 12:52 AM

Frost Walker 1U
Creature - Elemental
When Frost Walker becomes the target of a spell or ability, sacrifice it.
4/1
.

So its like a bad DanDan?

http://www.abugames.com/images/products/gradedarabiannightscards/17672713.jpg

Echelon

01-08-2015, 01:51 AM

I wonder if it's too much of a hastle to stack multiple Humble Defector activations with stuff like Quirion Ranger, Wirewood Symbiote, Scryb Ranger and friends. Not so much as an addition to Elves, but rather in a separate deck. Just tap the Defector, keep priority, untap it and when the untap resolves tap the Defector again and so on.

Even untapping it once nets you 4 cards before your opponent gets it, which puts you at +2 cards if your opponent decides to use it himself. As noted, he gets even better when you can either sac it to something or return it to your hand before the draw activations resolve.

Too bad for the Jeskai Ascendancy decks it doesn't have haste.

I can see the Defector going big in casual decks, using silly stuff like Pemmin's Aura, killing it off with the final mana you have to prevent your opponent from getting it.

Zupponn

01-08-2015, 01:53 AM

If they had printed Frost Walker for Dandan's UU cost, it would probably increase its chances of seeing play. As it is, I think it's slightly better than Dandan because Islandhome just blows.

I do like how it turns on Ferocious for only 2 mana though.

Echelon

01-08-2015, 02:02 AM

I do like how it turns on Ferocious for only 2 mana though.

Funnily enough in a color that doesn't have anything to do with the Ferocious mechanic nor is supposed to get efficient creatures. But meh, who cares, we're not going to see Ferocious in legacy anyway.

apple713

01-08-2015, 02:04 AM

Echelon

01-08-2015, 02:06 AM

Only defensively. The creatures die before they get the chance to attack (or tap).

Edit: @apple713: You're welcome :tongue:

Tylert

01-08-2015, 03:28 AM

IS there a way to dump your library into your graveyard with all creatures 1cmc except anger and cast this for 3?

Echelon

01-08-2015, 04:01 AM

When you plan to do that, you might as well play Manaless Dredge

ubernostrum

01-08-2015, 05:42 AM

Funnily enough in a color that doesn't have anything to do with the Ferocious mechanic nor is supposed to get efficient creatures. But meh, who cares, we're not going to see Ferocious in legacy anyway.

Um.

Um. (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&color=+%5BU%5D&text=+%5Bferocious%5D)

Yeah, about that "doesn't have anything to do with ferocious" bit, might be time to review what colors Temur is. Also which color Delver of Secrets was printed in :)

Echelon

01-08-2015, 06:16 AM

I missed those. Meh, still feels silly to me. And I believe the consensus is that Delver never should have been blue. But that's beside the point, let's keep this about Fate Reforged.

Lemnear

01-08-2015, 06:51 AM

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/134/968/635562813344861018.png

Blue Stoneforge Mystic? We will see that the Artifacts do :/

Tylert

01-08-2015, 06:57 AM

When you plan to do that, you might as well play Manaless Dredge

Yeah, i might also play sneak and show: 2 card combo for 3 mana without needing to put my library in my graveyard...
OF COURSE.

However, i like to think about it just for the challenge of finding how to use this card...

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/134/968/635562813344861018.png

Blue Stoneforge Mystic? We will see that the Artifacts do :/

THe bow is a crappy equipement in KTK. The vial is still unknown but i doubt it will do something exciting...
Also, it doesn't cheat the cards into play... Not as strong as Stoneforge...

Barook

01-08-2015, 07:01 AM

However, i like to think about it just for the challenge of finding how to use this card...
What about Kobolds/Ornithopters/Memnites to abuse certain triggers/sac effects?

Echelon

01-08-2015, 07:21 AM

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/134/968/635562813344861018.png

Blue Stoneforge Mystic? We will see that the Artifacts do :/

They'll probably cost 15 mana, equip for 27 and give creatures with at least 3 colors +0/+1 or something like that. Don't get your hopes up.

lyracian

01-08-2015, 08:00 AM

Only defensively. The creatures die before they get the chance to attack (or tap).
Edit: @apple713: You're welcome :tongue:
Technically you could tap them during your upkeep with the exile trigger on the stack. Unless you try and build Boros Aggro with Goblin Guide, Spark Elemental and any other Haste guys you can fine it look like a difficult card to leverage more value out of than just playing Holy Day.

What about Kobolds/Ornithopters/Memnites to abuse certain triggers/sac effects?
A reload for Cheerios.deck?

Ace/Homebrew

01-08-2015, 09:36 AM

THe bow is a crappy equipement in KTK. The vial is still unknown but i doubt it will do something exciting...

The vial will probably be in the 3rd set of the block if the bow was in the first. I'm basing that on the draft structure alone. That way this creature has one card to find in draft.

TsumiBand

01-08-2015, 09:52 AM

~Regroup the Ancestors
XWW
Instant
Return each creature card with converted mana cost X or less from your graveyard to the battlefield. Exile those creatures at the beginning of your next upkeep. Exile ~.

seems like a failed card.... due to defensive restriction..

@Edit - thanks Echelon

I suppose if you can chuck your library into your trashbin fast enough and cast this for 0 with a deck full of like Kobolds and Phyrexian Walkers and Memnites and shit and then cast like Dark Triumph or Ramosian Rally or something -- or maybe just do the old Flame-Kin Zealot + Dread Return trick, assuming you have enough dudes in play -- then the card isn't totally without merit. Otherwise it's just a durdly combat trick for someone with too many 2/2s with First Strike in their deck.

You might maybe could pull some shenanigans with like, Ghostway or something, but at that point... who cares?

HdH_Cthulhu

01-08-2015, 10:44 AM

I suppose if you can chuck your library into your trashbin fast enough and cast this for 0 with a deck full of like Kobolds and Phyrexian Walkers and Memnites and shit and then cast like Dark Triumph or Ramosian Rally or something -- or maybe just do the old Flame-Kin Zealot + Dread Return trick, assuming you have enough dudes in play -- then the card isn't totally without merit. Otherwise it's just a durdly combat trick for someone with too many 2/2s with First Strike in their deck.

You might maybe could pull some shenanigans with like, Ghostway or something, but at that point... who cares?

Cephalid breakfast/combo Mills really easy for 3 mana, but then you prolly already have won... so NO just NO!
Btw why does nobody play this deck anymore?

Cire

01-08-2015, 11:39 AM

Btw why does nobody play this deck anymore?

I thought it was because it was a glass cannon that was slower than Opps! and Belcher. But I also thought it had room for a counter suit at least . . . . honestly no clue. :eyebrow:

tescrin

01-08-2015, 12:19 PM

where do I talk about oppression? :eyebrow:
You don't, I mixed up posts, didn't double check, and forgot about it. All charges have been dropped and you are free to go.

Darkenslight

01-08-2015, 12:19 PM

How playable is this:

Mardu Woe-Reaper :w:
Human Warrior
Whenever ~ or another Warrior ETB under your control, you may exile target creature card from a graveyard. If you do, you gain 1 life.
2/1

Aggro_zombies

01-08-2015, 12:25 PM

Savannah Lions is not all that playable, and neither are most Warriors, so this guy is probably marginal at best.

lyracian

01-08-2015, 01:13 PM

Mardu Woe-Reaper :w:
He is great in Standard where he has some friends to play with unfortunately the only Warriors, I can think of, that see Legacy play are a few Goblins and he is the wrong colour to play with little green men. His ability is good against Dredge, Pox and Reanimation decks none of which are scared by a 2/1...

TsumiBand

01-08-2015, 02:02 PM

If Dryad Militant isn't making the rounds, Mardu Woe-Reaper probably won't either. The life gain is the less impressive aspect of the card, IMHO, though maybe if you were trying to make like Soul Sisters work or something you'd want those triggers (except how many Warriors does that deck care about, so still NO).

2/1s for 1 are way less playable than they used to be, at any rate. Kird Ape is a guy we know, so is Loam Lion, and even those guys are less than desirable these days. Hell, Wild Nacatl doesn't really pull much weight in 2015, because it is not Delver of Secrets and doesn't really get along with Delver very well either, unless you're willing to go 4-color gonzo.

TsumiBand

01-08-2015, 04:38 PM

MaximumC

01-08-2015, 05:27 PM

Mardu Scout :r::r:

Creature - Goblin Scout

Dash :1::r:

3/1

Does Burn (or Burn-adjacent decks) give a shit about this card? I could see this being a thing you'd want to draw just the once and milk for damage on an empty board (as Incinerate 5 - 2^57), then throw your burn at the face when this guy is either just a chump blocker or otherwise useless. So instead of constantly spending your burn spells on doming, you're using this guy to dome until you can't or shouldn't anymore, and he's harder to just kill because he's never in play during the opponent's turn. (unless you cast him, i guess)

In Modern, I can imagine that they would. I mean, this little dork has basically invalidated Spark Elemental and maybe even Hellspark Elemental, and there was a time when those saw play.

Also, allow me to introduce: Comes Into Play.dec:

Creatures (26)
1cc
4 Glitterfang
4 Goblin Guide
4 Uktabi Drake
2cc
4 Mardu Scout
3cc
4 Primal Forcemage
2 Goblin Heelcutter
2 Giantbaiting
2 Ogre Battledriver

Other Stuff (14)

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Aether Vial

Mana (20)
Forests'n'stuff I dunno

Cire

01-08-2015, 06:10 PM

Hero's Blade 2
Artifact -- Equipment (U)
Equipped creature gets +3/+2.
Whenever a legendary creature enters the battlefield under your control, you may attach Hero's Blade to it.
Equip 4

Maybe with: Isamaru, Hound of Konda or act legends with haste? Tuktuk the Explorer, Skullbriar, the Walking Grave?

It can be funny with Rafiq of the Many - 7 double strike power attacking alone. (or Blight Dragon - 7 power attacking potentially hasted infected)

Barook

01-08-2015, 06:29 PM

My first thought was playing/vialing in Thalia with this in play, but considering the outrageous equipment cost otherwise and having no utility compared to Jitte at a cost of :2:, this thing is unusable as far as Legacy is concerned.

TsumiBand

01-08-2015, 08:39 PM

In Modern, I can imagine that they would. I mean, this little dork has basically invalidated Spark Elemental and maybe even Hellspark Elemental, and there was a time when those saw play.

Also, allow me to introduce: Comes Into Play.dec:

Creatures (26)
1cc
4 Glitterfang
4 Goblin Guide
4 Uktabi Drake
2cc
4 Mardu Scout
3cc
4 Primal Forcemage
2 Goblin Heelcutter
2 Giantbaiting
2 Ogre Battledriver

Other Stuff (14)

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Aether Vial

Mana (20)
Forests'n'stuff I dunno

Heh :)

Maybe if Primal Forcemage were Pandemonium...? Or maybe I just fondly remember losing to Panda Burst many years ago. I guess 4cmc is a lot for not-Jace.

It does seem not-entirely-useless though, doesn't it. Christmas has come and gone, but Magical Christmas Land is timeless; I imagine a world where I'm free to spend turns after turn 3 drawing a card, Raiding this guy, and leaving mana open for the EOT Bolt-like-card to either go to the face OR to burn a dork that I don't want in play. Next turn, GOTO 10, and I'm spending one less spell to do about the same damages as I would have anyway, so when things get dumb I just unload all my 3-for-Rs right at target glasses because while I was playing Mardu Stitch over and over I was busy drawing all deez. That's... pretty Candy Land though.

FoolofaTook

01-08-2015, 09:32 PM

I know everyone is in love with treasure cruise right now, but this seems insane with Standstill, Sensei's Divining Top, and Dreadnought.

A manifested dreadnought is going to be tough to deal with given that turning the creature face up does not use the stack and cannot be responded too. In a list running dreadnoughts every manifested card is going to look like the end of the world when it hits the board. It'll also be really nice to turn mid-game chaff into a stream of 2/2's aimed at the opponent. Under Standstill manifest from a permanent in play will be a killer.

apple713

01-08-2015, 10:28 PM

I suppose if you can chuck your library into your trashbin fast enough and cast this for 0 with a deck full of like Kobolds and Phyrexian Walkers and Memnites and shit and then cast like Dark Triumph or Ramosian Rally or something -- or maybe just do the old Flame-Kin Zealot + Dread Return trick, assuming you have enough dudes in play -- then the card isn't totally without merit. Otherwise it's just a durdly combat trick for someone with too many 2/2s with First Strike in their deck.

You might maybe could pull some shenanigans with like, Ghostway or something, but at that point... who cares?

if you are throwing your library into the grave there are significantly better things to do

cherub_daemon

01-08-2015, 11:25 PM

Ghastly Conscription would be a lot more fun to think about if it had Delve, maybe (definitely) with a higher cost. As is, I can only assume it's mythic to keep it out of drafts? Am I missing something?

I really really want Rally the Ancestors to be cool, and it really really probably isn't. I have three possibilities unmentioned so far:

Convoke spells can be cast with the creatures. There's nothing really nasty in that toolbox, though.
Stuff with power keyed to number of X in play, e.g., Pack Rat.
Sliver alpha strike. Terrible idea, but if it even worked once at an FNM I'd probably go home happy. If slivers was okay already, this might be an interesting tool.

rufus

01-09-2015, 12:50 AM

Lord Seth

01-09-2015, 01:02 AM

In Modern, I can imagine that they would. I mean, this little dork has basically invalidated Spark Elemental and maybe even Hellspark Elemental, and there was a time when those saw play.But Spark and Hellspark Elemental both had trample, so chump blocking still meant damage; this allowed them to frequently do a good simulation of a Lightning Bolt. If this guy gets blocked, he just dies and no damage is dealt to the opponent.

Zupponn

01-09-2015, 02:27 AM

So, I see a post about Sparky Ekementals next to a Rally the Ancestors post. Those cards definitely work well together. Rally the Haste.dec anyone?

HdH_Cthulhu

01-09-2015, 05:54 AM

Lemnear

01-09-2015, 06:09 AM

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/134/970/635563078527984595.png

Seems like a mediocre card for EDH... Well it could get there if you mill a lot. Even then you want all that EtB triggers.

They overdid it with manifest in this set. Not enough focus on the clan mechanics in this set if you ask me.

Holly

01-09-2015, 06:40 AM

On purpose as this set isn't meant to be about the clans as Khans has been.
Supposedly its about Sarkhan having to make the pro- or anti- dragon choice, represented by modal cards.

Barook

01-09-2015, 08:24 AM

YamiJoey

01-09-2015, 08:30 AM

It's almost as if the set has been designed to be drafted alongside the set with no Manifest cards in it. Weird?

rufus

01-09-2015, 08:34 AM

[Ghastly Conscription]
Seems like a mediocre card for EDH... Well it could get there if you mill a lot. Even then you want all that EtB triggers.

It seems like a fun way to rob some other player's graveyard. Though at that price, and since they've already borked the mechanic, it might as well just have manifested the entire gy.

So, I see a post about Sparky Ekementals next to a Rally the Ancestors post.

So Rally the Ancestors
and

Proclamation of Rebirth
Lightning Serpent
Spark Elemental
Uktabi Drake
Goblin Guide
Monestary Swiftspear

That might work as some kind of sligh approach.

Lemnear

01-09-2015, 08:58 AM

I don't mind less focus on the terrible (or terribly broken) clan mechanics, but I agree with Lemnear - they're forcing Manisfest on too many cards trying to make it a thing. I would prefer less, but more interesting Manifest cards instead of "same shit, but with with different +1/+1 counter numbers in different colors".

Maybe the core of the problem is the limitation of manifest of putting cards from the top of the deck onto the battlefield and you can only flip over Creatures. The mechanic had A LOT more potential if it was possible to manifest cards from other zones than the top of your deck, like graveyard or hand and if you also could flip over non-creature cards if you pay the cards cost.

I mean manifesting Lands just to flip them over for 0 mana in response to a removal spell or sweeper has serious constructed potential. Also: a 2/2 beater that flips over into being a Thoughtseize? Sign me up.

rufus

01-09-2015, 11:08 AM

...I would prefer less, but more interesting Manifest cards instead of "same shit, but with with different +1/+1 counter numbers in different colors".

Fierce Invocation and Formless Nurturing are pretty lame,and rageform is marginal but the rest of the manifest cards are interesting enough. And, to be fair, even those boring manifest cards offer more than their Grey Ogre equivalent.

rufus

01-09-2015, 11:18 AM

Maybe the core of the problem is the limitation of manifest of putting cards from the top of the deck onto the battlefield and you can only flip over Creatures. ...

Jeskai Infiltrator and Ghastly Conscription are cards that manifest from other zones, and the creature restriction could be made interesting with effects like "target spell's controller puts it on the battlefield face down then manifests that card" or "turn target non-land permanent face-down. Then manifest that card."

Richard Cheese

01-09-2015, 11:20 AM

You guys are overlooking the most obvious target for Rally the Ancestors:
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/m14/114.jpg

For just :1::w::w::b: you can make a Griselbrand, and everyone knows that making a Griselbrand is the whole point of playing Magic!

TsumiBand

01-09-2015, 11:22 AM

Ghastly Conscription makes me think of the old Haunting Echoes "win condition" where simply exiling the bulk of your opponent's deck was enough to force a scoop. Casting this instead of Echoes would be less crippling but would give the same deck the ability to untap and just win the next turn.

None of that is Legacy notable, of course - Mono-Black Control isn't a thing, especially not the Odyssey Block deck I'm fondly remembering, but... that is what I thought of when I saw that thing. A large Black spell a control deck casts in order to end the game (either on a technicality, or for realsies).

Vicar in a tutu

01-09-2015, 12:12 PM

The stiflenaught dream lives... Or does it still suck?

http://i.imgur.com/RwKaXuH.png

rufus

01-09-2015, 12:15 PM

The stiflenaught dream lives... Or does it still suck?

http://i.imgur.com/RwKaXuH.png

Yay, another creature card with hexproof and evasion. Great design guys!

Lemnear

01-09-2015, 12:16 PM

TsumiBand

01-09-2015, 12:24 PM

http://media.wizards.com/2014/ujehvsbfrf153/en_8k9kwipkxp.png

Does Black Windfall do anything for ya?

death

01-09-2015, 12:26 PM

-1 is a buzz kill.

iamajellydonut

01-09-2015, 12:28 PM

http://media.wizards.com/2014/ujehvsbfrf153/en_8k9kwipkxp.png

Does Black Windfall do anything for ya?

No, it's terrible. The glory of Windfall was basically that it said "draw seven cards".

You empty your hand. Opponent still has a full grip. Cast Windfall. Ask if your opponent if they still want to play.

This, though, does literally nothing useful. The only scenarios in which you can abuse it are ones where you're already winning.

Bobmans

01-09-2015, 12:28 PM

Ad Nausseum say bye bye Past in Flames graveyard dependancy. Flip a bunch. Cast what you need then Windfall (Dark Deal) the rest.
How about reanimate/tinfins?

death

01-09-2015, 12:32 PM

Ad Nausseum say bye bye Past in Flames graveyard dependancy. Flip a bunch. Cast what you need then Windfall (Dark Deal) the rest.
How about reanimate/tinfins?

It's lackluster compared to PiF.

TsumiBand

01-09-2015, 12:34 PM

Well, good thing "draw 6" is terrible but "draw 7" is golden.

:/

I realize the -1 looks like a stinger, I doubt that it completely neuters the card though.

01-09-2015, 12:37 PM

Well, good thing "draw 6" is terrible but "draw 7" is golden.

:/

I realize the -1 looks like a stinger, I doubt that it completely neuters the card though.

Well, the real problem isn't really the minus one, it's that you draw to the same amount of cards you had minus one. So if you cast this with only 2 cards in hand, you only get 1, regardless of how many your opponent has/had.

Cire

01-09-2015, 12:38 PM

I mean manifesting Lands just to flip them over for 0 mana in response to a removal spell or sweeper has serious constructed potential. Also: a 2/2 beater that flips over into being a Thoughtseize? Sign me up.

I believe that if wizards is open to manifest, maybe in the future we will eventually get a mechanic - involving flipping over spells or non creature permanents (outside morph). Then I think we will have all the mind games that come with face down cards. One or two good morph cards + one or two good Manifest + one or two of this hypothetical mechanic - and suddenly face down becomes interesting.

rufus

01-09-2015, 12:39 PM

Does Black Windfall do anything for ya?
Black Flux is probably inferior to Tolarian Winds in most cases, and we know how often people play that.

Finn

01-09-2015, 12:42 PM

Tsumi, it's lame-ass Winds of Change, not Timetwister.

EDIT: Eh, ninjas.

Richard Cheese

01-09-2015, 12:42 PM

Ad Nausseum say bye bye Past in Flames graveyard dependancy. Flip a bunch. Cast what you need then Windfall (Dark Deal) the rest.
How about reanimate/tinfins?

In TinFins, if you can make 3 mana once you have Grizzlebees online, you probably just win.

iamajellydonut

01-09-2015, 12:43 PM

Well, the real problem isn't really the minus one, it's that you draw to the same amount of cards you had minus one. So if you cast this with only 2 cards in hand, you only get 1, regardless of how many your opponent has/had.

This is it. A draw six would still be amazing, but this is a draw zero.

rufus

01-09-2015, 12:49 PM

Tsumi, it's lame-ass Winds of Change, not Timetwister...

To be fair, there's potential with Land Tax or Life from the Loam that winds of change doesn't offer, but it's still a bad card.

TsumiBand

01-09-2015, 12:50 PM

Oh right, it isn't like Windfall much at all.

Well... hmm. I'm still not ready to dismiss it without dickering. But yes, it is a bit different than I originally read it to be.

Lemnear

01-09-2015, 01:08 PM

The stiflenaught dream lives... Or does it still suck?

http://i.imgur.com/RwKaXuH.png

Stuff like that offends me. Protection + Evasion is disgusting on one card.

PirateKing

01-09-2015, 01:46 PM

GenghisTom

01-09-2015, 02:20 PM

Does anyone else keep thinking about Humble Defector?

I'm thinking about some kind of Maverick Naya shell.
Homeward Path and Scryb Ranger
Knight of the Reliquary to search for Homeward Path, even a Crop Rotation or two.
Wasteland and such of course.
I mean, we already have Dark Confidant, but the synergies with Defector make it more explosive.
Maybe go all out grixis with Defector, Treacherous Pit-Dweller, Gilded Drake, Homeward Path, and Brand?
Too cute?

HdH_Cthulhu

01-09-2015, 02:31 PM

Lemnear

01-09-2015, 02:34 PM

Vicar in a tutu

01-09-2015, 02:42 PM

For maximum jank value: Use the new black discard your hand and draw along with Waste Not.

TsumiBand

01-09-2015, 02:43 PM

Enchantment doesn't have hexproof, so I want to say it isn't good, since for that same cost you get a 3/1 untouchable versus a 2/2 hard to kill flier that trades with a Delver. Unless you spend the original cost of the creature? Is :2::u::u::g: too much for a flying hexproof goyf?

But then again I am unfamiliar with how desperate Stiflenaught pilots are for new tech.

Well to flip P-Naught is a single :1: according to the rules of Manifest. I feel like I'd pay :2::u::u: for a 12/12 flying hexproof guy, sure.

The best part is that even if they can answer the enchantment, they still have to deal with the Dreadnaught underneath. It isn't like it stops being a 2/2 face-down creature if you Disenchant the enchantment. So they have to have a response for that guy as well, or else it gets real angry real fast (and real cheap).

For maximum jank value: Use the new black discard your hand and draw along with Waste Not.

It's a one-way ticket to Valueville!

Lemnear

01-09-2015, 02:47 PM

Well to flip P-Naught is a single :1: according to the rules of Manifest. I feel like I'd pay :1::u::u: +:1: for a 12/12 flying, trampling, hexproof guy, sure.

The best part is that even if they can answer the enchantment, they still have to deal with the Dreadnaught underneath. It isn't like it stops being a 2/2 face-down creature if you Disenchant the enchantment. So they have to have a response for that guy as well, or else it gets real angry real fast (and real cheap).

Minor fixes, because they matter ;)

Cire

01-09-2015, 02:47 PM

Rough U/W Dreadnaught List

4 BStorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Git Probe
4 STP
4 Force
4 TC

2 Tool box artifact
4 SFM
1 Jitte
1 BSK
4 Dreadnaught
4 Cloud form
4 Stiffle

17 Lands

Lemnear

01-09-2015, 02:54 PM

Rough U/W Dreadnaught List

4 BStorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Git Probe
4 STP
4 Force
4 TC

2 Tool box artifact
4 SFM
1 Jitte
1 BSK
4 Dreadnaught
4 Cloud form
4 Stiffle

17 Lands

Why bother with SFM and Stifle if you can just run delver and CounterTop. Stifle + Dreadnought is unplayable.

Cire

01-09-2015, 02:57 PM

Why bother with SFM and Stifle if you can just run delver, CounterTop and Enlightend Tutor?

That's why it was a rough list. . . . but stiffle was for the Dreadnaught when you draw into him instead of relying on cloudform + enlighten/bstorm. Plus it's a pretty good 1st turn play against fetchlands.

Lemnear

01-09-2015, 03:02 PM

That's why it was a rough list. . . . but stiffle was for the Dreadnaught when you draw into him instead of relying on cloudform + enlighten/bstorm. Plus it's a pretty good 1st turn play against fetchlands.

Stifling Fetchlands is pointless if UR Delver as the Enemy #1 runs smooth on two lands. If you draw Naught respite of SDT and Ponder, you can Brainstorm it back. Simple.

rufus

01-09-2015, 03:04 PM

For maximum jank value: Use the new black discard your hand and draw along with Waste Not.

It doesn't seem that crazy:

4 Dark Deal

4 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Waste Not
4 Dream Salvage

death

01-09-2015, 03:05 PM

Rough U/W Dreadnaught List

4 BStorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Git Probe
4 STP
4 Force
4 TC

2 Tool box artifact
4 SFM
1 Jitte
1 BSK
4 Dreadnaught
4 Cloud form
4 Stifle

17 Lands

This is almost exactly what was going through my mind: 4 Enlightened Tutor, no SFM+BSK package. Don't forget Vision Charms can both enable/protect P. Dreadnought.

Edit- No Treasure Cruises just Dig Through Time

Cire

01-09-2015, 03:06 PM

Stifling Fetchlands is pointless if UR Delver as the Enemy #1 runs smooth on two lands. If you draw Naught respite of SDT and Ponder, you can Brainstorm it back. Simple.

Fair enough.

Edit: Vision charm plus TC is also a nice interaction, sometimes you don't have the seven in your grave, and vision charm dumps 5 into the yard (4 + the charm itself). Not saying it's good - just something you can do.

Why DTT?

Jander78

01-09-2015, 03:20 PM

Why DTT?
Because filter is better than raw drawing when you're trying to avoid putting your kill condition in your hand.

Let's keep deck build discussion in the deck discussion forums and out of a spoiler thread.

Rizso

01-09-2015, 04:25 PM

http://media.wizards.com/2014/ujehvsbfrf153/en_8k9kwipkxp.png

Does Black Windfall do anything for ya?

Tho kinda sweet with spirit of the labyrinth or chains of the mephist, playable prob not :P

Cire

01-09-2015, 04:26 PM

Tho kinda sweet with spirit of the labyrinth or chains of the mephist, playable prob not :P

How is it any better than Winds of Change then?

tescrin

01-09-2015, 04:38 PM

http://media.wizards.com/2014/ujehvsbfrf153/en_8k9kwipkxp.png

I think it's decent next to Spirit of the Labyrinth, Chains, and other cards that help build Chains Locks (Anvil of Bogarden.) The fact that this card would help you find a missing piece under chains or you may get a free win off of the opponent drawing cards if they're antsy. I thought the Waste Not idea was pretty good too. This + Chains + Waste Not + SotL + Anvil could easily make something that resembles a prison deck.

Not sure if that means anything; but I'm sure a WB pox player is having a wet dream as we speak.

Looks like someone beat me to this. Also, the fact that Winds of Change does the *actual same exact thing* except that you each have one card less is disappointing.

rufus

01-09-2015, 04:47 PM

How is it any better than Winds of Change then?

It causes discard, and puts cards in the graveyard. That's significant for:

Dredge, madness, flashback, Waste not, Dream Salvage, Treasure Cruise, and Tarmogoyf

Edit: Had a wrong card in there.

Darkenslight

01-09-2015, 05:00 PM

Yeah Too cute... Yes you will draw a bunch of cards, but they are all awful (brand!?) and the manabase sux!

I prefer MY Defectors to be paired with Brooding Saurian. :laugh:

joven

01-09-2015, 05:23 PM

Maybe the core of the problem is the limitation of manifest of putting cards from the top of the deck onto the battlefield and you can only flip over Creatures. The mechanic had A LOT more potential if it was possible to manifest cards from other zones than the top of your deck, like graveyard or hand and if you also could flip over non-creature cards if you pay the cards cost.

I mean manifesting Lands just to flip them over for 0 mana in response to a removal spell or sweeper has serious constructed potential. Also: a 2/2 beater that flips over into being a Thoughtseize? Sign me up.

I believe that if wizards is open to manifest, maybe in the future we will eventually get a mechanic - involving flipping over spells or non creature permanents (outside morph). Then I think we will have all the mind games that come with face down cards. One or two good morph cards + one or two good Manifest + one or two of this hypothetical mechanic - and suddenly face down becomes interesting.

Hm, maybe that will be the mechanic of the next set: Spells with a kind of morph, you put them into play face down and then you can flip and cast them for their "Spellmorph" cost. :D
Something like:

Spellmorph Thoughtseize
B Sorcery
Target player reveals his or her hand. You choose a nonland card from it. That player discards that card. You lose 2 life.
Spellmorph 2B (You may cast this card face down as a 2/2 creature for :3:. Turn it face up and cast it for its spellmorph cost.)

Cire

01-09-2015, 06:01 PM

Hm, maybe that will be the mechanic of the next set: Spells with a kind of morph, you put them into play face down and then you can flip and cast them for their "Spellmorph" cost. :D
Something like:

Spellmorph Thoughtseize
B Sorcery
Target player reveals his or her hand. You choose a nonland card from it. That player discards that card. You lose 2 life.
Spellmorph 2B (You may cast this card face down as a 2/2 creature for :3:. Turn it face up and cast it for its spellmorph cost.)

The dream - would be something that works well with manifest. So maybe something like ~

Morph discard 2B
Sorcery
Target player discards a card. If you cast ~ from your hand, place it face down on the battlefield as a 2/2 instead of the graveyard.
[Name] B - If ~ is face down you may, exile it for B, and cast it from exile until end of turn as if it had flash.

joven

01-09-2015, 09:55 PM

The dream - would be something that works well with manifest. So maybe something like ~

Morph discard 2B
Sorcery
Target player discards a card. If you cast ~ from your hand, place it face down on the battlefield as a 2/2 instead of the graveyard.
[Name] B - If ~ is face down you may, exile it for B, and cast it from exile until end of turn as if it had flash.

Spellmorph would work with Manifest in the same way as Morph does. That was the whole point.
But it would only be really interesting with instants, when you can spellmorph the facedown spell right before the 2/2 creature would die.

As I see it, manifested cards are 2/2 tokens that have the potential to turn into much more. That is pretty amazing.

Barook

01-10-2015, 02:21 AM

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/66/288/200/283/635564009897020646.png

More expensive than Assault Strobe, but this one is instant speed and also gives trample, considering your pumped creature should have quite a bit of power anyway. Might be cool with stuff like Kiln Fiend or Nivix Cyclops, especially since it's a common for Pauper.

tescrin

01-15-2015, 01:22 PM

I think Tasigur could easily make a splash in BGx or UBx. If you end up at 5 mana you can probably cast him for B and immediate activate his ability for nearly-guaranteed CA. This however isn't something that *has* to be done. You can just cast him as a Goyf for 1B or w/e. I'm picking up some at $3 because I'd be really surprised if a graveyard feeding CA engine with Delve and a 4/5 body can't make an impact in at least Standard; let alone the possible implications elsewhere.

It's notable that on top of his easy access to (repeatable) CA, he's not Decay-able or Bolt-able. His synergy with Nic Fit builds (especially BUGFit) is amazing. You easily ramp to his CA, you fill the grave quickly, he fuels your grave, and he provides instant-speed CA with a mana-dump. I realize Nic Fit is a pile; but it's typically a pile because it's top heavy nature makes it play funky; possibly Delve cards can take advantage of it's huge mana reserves while making the cards playable at other times.

It's noteworthy that they play exceptionally well with Deed (although if they make a splash in other decks they pose big problems for Nic Fit's traditional build anyway.)