Fate Reforged Thread

[Sylphnir]

Pax Australia showcased the first [FRF] cards!

Picture (http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/133/134/635504675269208063.jpg)
Crux of Fate :3::b::b:
Sorcery (Rare)
Choose one —
• Destroy all Dragon creatures.
• Destroy all non-Dragon creatures.
Ugin's whispered summons led Sarkhan Vol to the moment that would echo down the centuries and seal Tarkir's fate: the primal battle between Ugin and Nicol Bolas.

Picture (http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/133/135/635504675335457143.jpg)
Yasova Dragonclaw :2::g:
Legendary Creature — Human Warrior (Mythic Rare)
Trample
At the beginning of combat on your turn, you may pay :1::ur::ur:. If you do, gain control of target creature an opponent controls with power less than Yasova Dragonclaw's power until end of turn, untap that creature, and it gains haste until end of turn.
4/2

While not exactly legacy playable, it confirms some quantities of hybrid mana which I found interesting.
And I wanted to make a thread 'cause I'm greedy like that.

Release is January 23, 2015 and the set contains 185 cards for those that don't know.

[Barook]

Yasova seems interesting. Repeated Threatens are nice, even if they're unlikely to grab Goyfs.

Might be too slow for Legacy, but who knows.

[alderon666]

Finally I can build my monoblack dragon control deck!

[TsumiBand]

I like Black Wraths. It's true that there probably isn't a good way to bank on the modal thing, but hey, another random WoG for broke chumps like me. (Y)

As for Threaten guy, hybrid mana is my favorite thing ever, so yay for that. The actual ability though is kind of a poopy Vedalken Shackles though, so I kinda feel like it's a non-starter across formats. Standard is pretty midrange-y and it doesn't get easier to play him any further back. I dunno.

[joven]

So, hybrid mana is how they plan to make Fate Reforged work with both Khans and the third set in the block which - as WotC said - won't be in wedge theme.
I'm still wondering if the origins of the clans go back to allied or enemy color pairs. I tend to think allied colors but we will see.

[bruizar]

The third set will be colorless like ROE. It represents the alternative outcome to Fate Reforged

[TsumiBand]

So, hybrid mana is how they plan to make Fate Reforged work with both Khans and the third set in the block which - as WotC said - won't be in wedge theme.
I'm still wondering if the origins of the clans go back to allied or enemy color pairs. I tend to think allied colors but we will see.

Yeah it's kinda hard to say, I wonder if they even need wedge colors given the way they built the khans - centered on a color but implementing bits from the other two. At least from a design standpoint I think they did well; differentiating BUG from RUG could have been difficult given Red and Black's similarities, but focusing one around Black (Sultai) and one around Green (Temur) led to very different play between the two. So arguably 'mono Green Temur' could still jive with its ancestor by virtue of its existing execution.

[BBG|Scott-Spain]

The third set will be colorless like ROE. It represents the alternative outcome to Fate Reforged

I'm kinda banking on this.

If these cards indicate anything, there will be an interesting third act.

[joven]

The third set will be colorless like ROE. It represents the alternative outcome to Fate Reforged

I don't think there will be that many colorless cards in Fate Reforged and Dragons of Tarkir. Probably just Udin and 2-3 things associated with him like Ghostfire.
Most of the dragons will probably be colored, although I fear that some of them could be "Eldrazi-sized".

[Lord Seth]

I wouldn't mind more colorless-themed stuff like Ghostfire Blade. My Ensoul Artifact deck in Standard could use them.

[Cire]

Sandsteppe Mastodon
5GG
Creature - Elephant
Reach
When Sandsteppe Mastodon enters the battlefield, bolster 5. (Choose a creature with the least toughness or tied with the least toughness among creatures you control. Put 5 +1/+1 counters on it.)
5/5

Not a good card, but that's one of the new mechanics. . . . which is a little boring. . . :frown:

[Lemnear]

Sandsteppe Mastodon
5GG
Creature - Elephant
Reach
When Sandsteppe Mastodon enters the battlefield, bolster 5. (Choose a creature with the least toughness or tied with the least toughness among creatures you control. Put 5 +1/+1 counters on it.)
5/5

Not a good card, but that's one of the new mechanics. . . . which is a little boring. . . :frown:

What do you expect? It's the usual kicker/counter/creatures only WitC usues for it's mechanics

[Meekrab]

Vanilla 10/10 for 7, just what Magic needed, thx wotc

[Zombie]

To be fair, it can turn a Wirewood Symbiote into a 6/6 which seems amusing at least.

[Cire]

Just brainstorming any redeeming application of this mechanic (if any card with bolster has a decent mana cost): maybe something with Etched Oracle or Sage of Hours?

[apple713]

Just brainstorming any redeeming application of this mechanic (if any card with bolster has a decent mana cost): maybe something with Etched Oracle or Sage of Hours?

maybe but it'd have to be really good. and the card it worked with would also have to be very good, which is highly unlikely.

[rufus]

Just brainstorming any redeeming application of this mechanic (if any card with bolster has a decent mana cost): maybe something with Etched Oracle or Sage of Hours?

They'll probably find some use in standard UW heroic or whatever.

[iamajellydonut]

Just brainstorming any redeeming application of this mechanic (if any card with bolster has a decent mana cost): maybe something with Etched Oracle or Sage of Hours?

Or just a 10/10 for 7cc.

[(nameless one)]

This card would be great with flicker effects.

[rufus]

This card would be great with flicker effects.

Unless you have some way to burn the +1/+1 or a horde of bodies to stack them on, it won't matter much. (Not to mention that a vanilla 10/10 beater is quite a threat on its own.)

[Tylert]

Infinite turns combo: Sage of hours + Deadeye navigator + this new card!!

[Barook]

That's obviously the Timmy/EDH card.

I would wait for smaller versions to see if there's any interesting card, although I doubt it.

[workingdude]

This card would be great with flicker effects.

If they put a bolster 2+ on some white/green legendary bear, it could do well with karakas shenanigans.

[TsumiBand]

Depending on how aggressively it's costed, it could be a not-terrible-in-Standard way to keep your early drops relevant. If that wording is accurate, the ability won't fizzle if a creature is shot before resolution (unless you just have the one) so your opponent can't just counter the ability with removal.

I also notice that Bolster works directly with Ferocious (Temur's primary color is :g:), indirectly with Outlast(Abzan's primary color is :w:, Green is a friendly color in this wedge), and not at all with Delve(Sultai's primary color is :b:, and :g: is an enemy color). Maybe that is just incidental, but looking at the three Khans with :g: in the cost it almost makes sense - given some of the comments they made about how the rest of the set will not deal with multi-colored wedge things. So maybe this set will introduce a series of things that are 'in-color' for each khan as it pertains to their primary color, and complements the khan in which that color is secondary. Or maaaaybe I'm reaching and there are only like 4 spoiled cards and it's too early to say anything. vOv

[Aggro_zombies]

I think the simpler explanation is that what each clan cares about will be constant through the block:

- Abzan cares about +1/+1 counters;
- Temur cares about large creatures;
- Sultai cares about the graveyard (mostly as a resource);
- Mardu cares about aggression;
- Jeskai cares about casting spells.

Wizards really likes cards to overlap at least two different draft strategies, and this one overlaps Abzan and Temur. It slots well into Wizards' intended plan for drafting triple KtK (start in an enemy color pair, then go wedge) since the BG High Toughness deck has trouble closing out games while the UG Morph deck can stack counters on a face-down creature to end up with a huge threat regardless of what the face-up side is.

[TsumiBand]

Ugin, the Spirit Dragon :8:
Planeswalker - Ugin

+ 3 : Lightning Bolt
- X : Exile all colored permanents with cmc == or < X
- 10 : Gain 7 life, draw 7 cards, play up to 7 permanent cards from your hand

Source is TCGPlayer via fbook, from the WotC site or some junk, too lazy to link


Pffft


Why the fuck mono-red can't get a dude that Bolts things, and Ugin's like "shit bitch, I +3 that shit, shoot"

Anyway, this goes in every EDH deck known to man, good night Austin TX wherever you are

[Megadeus]

His plus it's +2 fwiw

[iamajellydonut]

So, I'm fairly certain Karn just got bumped out of every deck he's currently slotted into.

[Megadeus]

All 1 or two of them. Though at least karn against combo is a bit better by way of his "discard" ability. Also the modern tron deck assembling tron on turn three can drop a Karn. Both are very possiblyoptions, but I'm not sure this is "strictly" better.

[Dice_Box]

http://media.wizards.com/2014/ujehvsbfrf153/en_w54r4t295i.png
The art... and the 7 loyalty... I love this. I agree Karn just took a hell of a hit.

Edit:
The Onslaught Fetches will be in Fate as well. Milk that baby for all its worth.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/fetching-look-fate-reforged-2014-12-24

[apple713]

http://media.wizards.com/2014/ujehvsbfrf153/en_w54r4t295i.png
The art... and the 7 loyalty... I love this. I agree Karn just took a hell of a hit.

Edit:
The Onslaught Fetches will be in Fate as well. Milk that baby for all its worth.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/fetching-look-fate-reforged-2014-12-24

-0: remove all tokens from the game :) if only this could be searched for with eye of ugin.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Ugin, the Spirit Dragon :8:
Planeswalker - Ugin

+ 3 : Lightning Bolt
- X : Exile all colored permanents with cmc == or < X
- 10 : Gain 7 life, draw 7 cards, play up to 7 permanent cards from your hand



More reason for me to want Painter's Servant unbanned in EDH.
EDIT: Looks like Bolas.

[Dice_Box]

More reason for me to want Painter's Servant unbanned in EDH.
EDIT: Looks like Bolas.
I do not like that with idea with Iona open as a General. Also, I do not think that art looking in such a way is at all accidental.

[LIKEABOSS]

Sandsteppe Mastodon
5GG
Creature - Elephant
Reach
When Sandsteppe Mastodon enters the battlefield, bolster 5. (Choose a creature with the least toughness or tied with the least toughness among creatures you control. Put 5 +1/+1 counters on it.)
5/5

Not a good card, but that's one of the new mechanics. . . . which is a little boring. . . :frown:
Why the hell does a FREAKING ELEPHANT have reach? Wtf?

[jmlima]

Why the hell does a FREAKING ELEPHANT have reach? Wtf?

He's got a big trunk.

[Nuke is Good]

http://media.wizards.com/2014/ujehvsbfrf153/en_w54r4t295i.png
The art... and the 7 loyalty... I love this. I agree Karn just took a hell of a hit.

Edit:
The Onslaught Fetches will be in Fate as well. Milk that baby for all its worth.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/fetching-look-fate-reforged-2014-12-24

I think this has a home in Tron decks. I dunno 12 Post since well Eldrazi are tutorable.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Vanilla 10/10 for 7, just what Magic needed, thx wotc

Just like 2/10 treefolk with cmc4 or 1/11 first strike soldier.

[Barook]

I think this has a home in Tron decks. I dunno 12 Post since well Eldrazi are tutorable.
Could be a replacement for All is Dust for those decks who run it since only costs :1: more, but doubles as wincon.

[Dice_Box]

I can see him in Tron decks, but I think Karn will hold some of his luster there. All three lands make 7 mana meaning he can be cast turn 3. Also the discard is not something to overlook.

I am thinking about sticking this guy in my Shops deck though with Metalworker. Draw 7 is just what the doctor ordered and he drops Trigon like a sack of shit. Mud in Legacy could use him too. Wipe the floor with a repeatable Deed? Lable me impressed.

[Barook]

EDIT: Looks like Bolas.
Ugin's ultimate also mirrors the one of Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker.

[BBG|Scott-Spain]

As hype as that Ugin is, I don't see it sliding into Tron as some would hope due to the 8cc. Might be harder to curve out unless you add something else like Signet or something. Either way, it's hype as hell and I hope more colorless cards come.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

As hype as that Ugin is, I don't see it sliding into Tron as some would hope due to the 8cc. Might be harder to curve out unless you add something else like Signet or something. Either way, it's hype as hell and I hope more colorless cards come.

Is there any reason why the signet/curving should be a trouble? Note that I'm not the most experienced speaking of Modern, but I thought that some kind of color fixation and ramp is played, as well as the :1::g: sorceries to find lands, ones that need the initial Forest. Thus I believe that it should be pretty usual to play turn4 Ugin.
Shame the art, though. It's... not exactly beautiful.

[Pastorofmuppets]

As hype as that Ugin is, I don't see it sliding into Tron as some would hope due to the 8cc. Might be harder to curve out unless you add something else like Signet or something. Either way, it's hype as hell and I hope more colorless cards come.
Well, it IS 001/185. I assume the first 20 or so cards in the set will be colorless nonartifact/nonlands.
As for the Bolster mechanic someone's going to be upset when they pull 10 Fat Asstodon during prerelease and launch, but it seems like Wizards has done pretty good on making the limited-focused mechanics have kickers. Creatures get bonuses off of their Prowess triggers and having +1/+1 counters in keeping with their shard's mechanics, so maybe we'll get a Bolster 1 with a neat little ability attached.

[Barook]

Well, it IS 001/185. I assume the first 20 or so cards in the set will be colorless nonartifact/nonlands.
As for the Bolster mechanic someone's going to be upset when they pull 10 Fat Asstodon during prerelease and launch, but it seems like Wizards has done pretty good on making the limited-focused mechanics have kickers. Creatures get bonuses off of their Prowess triggers and having +1/+1 counters in keeping with their shard's mechanics, so maybe we'll get a Bolster 1 with a neat little ability attached.
Creatures with +1/+1 counters get bonuses? That would tie in neatly with Abzan stuff from KtK.

[Lemnear]

Isn't it funny that Ugin will fight alongside the Eldrazi in Legacy? ;D

[aCatNamedBootsy]

Isn't it funny that Ugin will fight alongside the Eldrazi in Legacy? ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jne9t8sHpUc

From a storyline perspective it makes perfect that he can't affect the Eldrazi titans.

I plan to play a few copies of Ugin in MUD alongside Karn. Both have their uses in certain Matchups. I see Ugin shining against UR Delver, Elves, and Miracles while Karn I think does well against decks with fatties and attrition decks.

[Lord Seth]

Is there any reason why the signet/curving should be a trouble? Note that I'm not the most experienced speaking of Modern, but I thought that some kind of color fixation and ramp is played, as well as the :1::g: sorceries to find lands, ones that need the initial Forest. Thus I believe that it should be pretty usual to play turn4 Ugin.
Shame the art, though. It's... not exactly beautiful.Well the big issue for GR Tron is that his main usage is as a sweeper. Problem is, Oblivion Stone is also a sweeper that lets you split up the 8 mana (which can be incredibly useful if you're having trouble assembling Urzatron).

He might replace All Is Dust, but it's worth remembering that All Is Dust is really only played as Oblivion Stones #5-8. And Ugin costs 1 more than All Is Dust. What does he offer in addition? His +2 isn't particularly useful against an opponent because their life total doesn't matter that much, and a sweeper takes out all creatures instead of just one. That said, if up against Affinity he's a little more useful because he can take out more creatures, but even then he's rather slow.

The ultimate is gamewinning, but feels like it could easily just be win-more. You're likely doing great if you do get up that high.

There's definitely cases where he's better than Oblivion Stone or even All Is Dust, but is it frequent enough to merit playing him over them in Modern GR Tron? Not sure about that.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Thanks Lord Seth, that was enlightening! Now I get it.

[Dice_Box]

Against Affinity he does little. He only Deeds coloured permanents.

[FoolofaTook]

[IMG]
The Onslaught Fetches will be in Fate as well. Milk that baby for all its worth.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/fetching-look-fate-reforged-2014-12-24

The wording of the article suggests that the Onslaught fetches will be in the lands slot, not the rare/mythic slot. That's a value booster from Fate Reforged because when you luck into a fetch it will be alongside the rare/mythic in the pack.

Had to read it twice to get there but that's what it sounds like.

The number of people drafting at my LGS has been dropping steadily. This might reverse the trend. Although one of the reasons the numbers of drafters is in decline is that people have filled out their KTK fetch sets.

[Barook]

The wording of the article suggests that the Onslaught fetches will be in the lands slot, not the rare/mythic slot. That's a value booster from Fate Reforged because when you luck into a fetch it will be alongside the rare/mythic in the pack.

Had to read it twice to get there but that's what it sounds like.
Now let's just hope they didn't do that because the set blatantly sucks. DGM left a bad taste in my mouth.

[FoolofaTook]

Now let's just hope they didn't do that because the set blatantly sucks. DGM left a bad taste in my mouth.

I'm betting they did it because booster sales aren't meeting the targets at this point. My nephew told me a couple of days ago that it was time to get the last few cards for his Legacy Burn deck because he didn't want to draft any more. He has more than he needs out of KTK at this point and sees no reason to draft the next set.

The only way they get him to draft the next set is if they put the other set of fetches in. He's full up on KTK fetches and never wants to see another creature with Outlast in his life.

[Dice_Box]

The effect on the long term price of the fetches though is worth a thought. This could be something that is healthy for us.

[Barook]

I'm betting they did it because booster sales aren't meeting the targets at this point. My nephew told me a couple of days ago that it was time to get the last few cards for his Legacy Burn deck because he didn't want to draft any more. He has more than he needs out of KTK at this point and sees no reason to draft the next set.

The only way they get him to draft the next set is if they put the other set of fetches in. He's full up on KTK fetches and never wants to see another creature with Outlast in his life.
I wonder - was KTK the best-selling set of all time again?

FRF is also supposed to be drafted with Dragons of Tarkir, so there's that.

[iamajellydonut]

I mean, why design good sets when you can instead just print money?

[bruizar]

Who needs good sets when you can play poker?

[Meekrab]

The wording of the article suggests that the Onslaught fetches will be in the lands slot, not the rare/mythic slot. That's a value booster from Fate Reforged because when you luck into a fetch it will be alongside the rare/mythic in the pack.

Had to read it twice to get there but that's what it sounds like.

The number of people drafting at my LGS has been dropping steadily. This might reverse the trend. Although one of the reasons the numbers of drafters is in decline is that people have filled out their KTK fetch sets.
The article didn't just suggest that, it blatantly confirmed it:


In other words, it's entirely possible to open your Fate Reforged packs at a Prerelease and, instead of seeing a basic land or a Jungle Hollow, see this staring back at you:
FloodedStrand.jpg

Now, what the frequency of the fetch substitution is, who knows?

[LIKEABOSS]

The article didn't just suggest that, it blatantly confirmed it:



Now, what the frequency of the fetch substitution is, who knows?

if its anything like D-Maze, I'll cry.

On the bright side, $5 fetches might become reality!

[HSCK]

I'm betting they did it because booster sales aren't meeting the targets at this point. My nephew told me a couple of days ago that it was time to get the last few cards for his Legacy Burn deck because he didn't want to draft any more. He has more than he needs out of KTK at this point and sees no reason to draft the next set.

The only way they get him to draft the next set is if they put the other set of fetches in. He's full up on KTK fetches and never wants to see another creature with Outlast in his life.

I'm going to call BS on that, I'm sure when sales numbers come out KTK will have outsold Theros. KTK has gotten excellent reviews in all formats from just about everyone except 6 users here on The Source.

[Meekrab]

I'm going to call BS on that, I'm sure when sales numbers come out KTK will have outsold Theros. KTK has gotten excellent reviews in all formats from just about everyone except 6 users here on The Source.
This, there's over 60 KTK drafts in progress on MODO right now and it's 10:30pm on a Holiday Cube Friday.

[YamiJoey]

This, there's over 60 KTK drafts in progress on MODO right now and it's 10:30pm on a Holiday Cube Friday.

That's crazy. Why would anyone ever play MODO?

[Darkenslight]

That's crazy. Why would anyone ever play MODO?

Because their collections are on there? *shrug*

[Aggro_zombies]

The effect on the long term price of the fetches though is worth a thought. This could be something that is healthy for us.
Not really. You need duals in order to make fetches any good, and if more people pick up fetches there will be more demand for duals. Limited access to Reserved List-protected cards is still going to be a problem.


if its anything like D-Maze, I'll cry.
It is probably going to be exactly like Dragon's Maze. They said the basic land slot may contain non-basics, which suggests to me that they'll use the common-uncommon-rare frequency when distributing these, except it'll be basic-gainland-fetch instead. If they do that, fetches will be about as rare as DGM shocks were.

[btm10]

Not really. You need duals in order to make fetches any good, and if more people pick up fetches there will be more demand for duals. Limited access to Reserved List-protected cards is still going to be a problem.


Fetches are pretty solid fixers in two color lists with basics. They're not ideal, but they enable things like Brainstorm+Fetch and lower the barrier to entry into Modern, which is probably going to be important to Legacy's long term growth. A deck like UR Delver can run reasonably well on something like 2 Steam Vents, 1 Volc, 1 (additional) basic, so a modern UR player can port their tier 1 deck into a tier 1 Legacy deck for ~$500-550 (1 Volc, 4 FoW) which is a much less scary amount than full freight on a Legacy deck. It's not a huge boost for Eternal formats, but I'll take what I can get.

[TsumiBand]

Fetches are pretty solid fixers in two color lists with basics. They're not ideal, but they enable things like Brainstorm+Fetch and lower the barrier to entry into Modern, which is probably going to be important to Legacy's long term growth. A deck like UR Delver can run reasonably well on something like 2 Steam Vents, 1 Volc, 1 (additional) basic, so a modern UR player can port their tier 1 deck into a tier 1 Legacy deck for ~$500-550 (1 Volc, 4 FoW) which is a much less scary amount than full freight on a Legacy deck. It's not a huge boost for Eternal formats, but I'll take what I can get.

Ugh, I feel like I retell this every time it comes up, but I've tried the 'Modern mana in Legacy' thing and it is disastrous. Forget Wasteland for a second; if you Conley Woods your way through the first three turns that's 9 life. Maybe a newer two-color deck wouldn't need to punch itself in the face like my old GRW Zoo deck did, but it's wishful thinking to suggest that shocklands and fetches get along well in Legacy. There really is no besting that 1 life payment for fixing your land without strings attached.

[btm10]

Ugh, I feel like I retell this every time it comes up, but I've tried the 'Modern mana in Legacy' thing and it is disastrous. Forget Wasteland for a second; if you Conley Woods your way through the first three turns that's 9 life. Maybe a newer two-color deck wouldn't need to punch itself in the face like my old GRW Zoo deck did, but it's wishful thinking to suggest that shocklands and fetches get along well in Legacy. There really is no besting that 1 life payment for fixing your land without strings attached.

I do think that two vs. three colors is significant for the reason that a two color deck can usually get by (at least initially) on two basics. Zoo is/was relatively color and land type (for Nacatl and Kird Ape) intensive relative to something like UR which can run (albeit with some difficulty) on Island + Mountain or off of Volc + either basic. It's not great in the face of Wasteland, but it's also a bridge proposition.

More generally, I think that we'll only continue to grow the format by getting Modern players into Legacy as they stay in the game longer and decide they want the things that Legacy provides that Modern doesn't (more brokenness, larger card pool, a more traditional sort of Magic), so anything that helps Modern (which I'm sure is/was one of the big drivers of the Onslaught fetch reprints) will hopefully help Legacy in the long run. Anything that isn't a substitution of Modern for Legacy, anyway.

[Barook]

More cheap decks would help the growth of Legacy as long as they're interesting to play - Burn is cheap, but miserable for both parties.

Basically decks that don't have to heavily rely on duals or other RL staples.

[btm10]

More cheap decks would help the growth of Legacy as long as they're interesting to play - Burn is cheap, but miserable for both parties.

Basically decks that don't have to heavily rely on duals or other RL staples.

I agree with the sentiment if not the specifics, which is why I like UR Delver so much. It buys people into the most versatile staple in the format (Force) without requiring 6-10 duals or other pricey doodads like Show and Tell.

[lyracian]

if its anything like D-Maze, I'll cry.
On the bright side, $5 fetches might become reality!
Dragon's Maze had, I think, one shock every 20 boosters; I would expect the same here. Just enough so that people get them but not as much as Khans.


More cheap decks would help the growth of Legacy as long as they're interesting to play - Burn is cheap, but miserable for both parties.
Basically decks that don't have to heavily rely on duals or other RL staples.
There are plenty of cards Wizards could re-print (Force, Waste, Port, Karakas) to make entry into Legacy fairly cheap. Until that point all they are really doing is pushing Modern which has the benefit of making cross format staples cheaper. There will always be a bottleneck around duels but you can make decks that do not use many or even any; for example Gamble Lands only has a couple of Taiga (Tabernacle could be a problem though) and D&T has no dual lands. Counter-burn decks could be constructed to run off a single Volcanic and make more use of Blood Moon. None of them might be ideal decks but if the key non-reserve cards were reprinted it would make entry to Legacy better.

[YamiJoey]

I played BUG Delver (No Basics) with 3 Wastelands, 2 Watery Graves, and an Overgrown Tomb. Against Burn I went T1 Grave Delver, Daze, Grave untapped, and won. My opponent got a free Fireblast. I played UW Control with Fountains over Tundras and ended up T8ing at 4-1, losing to Jund in the T8. It really doesn't matter. I might play Storm now that I have my Deltas.

[Lemnear]

I played BUG Delver (No Basics) with 3 Wastelands, 2 Watery Graves, and an Overgrown Tomb. Against Burn I went T1 Grave Delver, Daze, Grave untapped, and won. My opponent got a free Fireblast. I played UW Control with Fountains over Tundras and ended up T8ing at 4-1, losing to Jund in the T8. It really doesn't matter. I might play Storm now that I have my Deltas.

Bad example to prove that Shocklands are decent substitutes. Try play control or Storm with Shocks and see how Shocks affect your ability to use life as a resource for additional turns or Ad Nauseam

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I do think that two vs. three colors is significant for the reason that a two color deck can usually get by (at least initially) on two basics. Zoo is/was relatively color and land type (for Nacatl and Kird Ape) intensive relative to something like UR which can run (albeit with some difficulty) on Island + Mountain or off of Volc + either basic. It's not great in the face of Wasteland, but it's also a bridge proposition. More generally, I think that we'll only continue to grow the format by getting Modern players into Legacy as they stay in the game longer and decide they want the things that Legacy provides that Modern doesn't (more brokenness, larger card pool, a more traditional sort of Magic), so anything that helps Modern (which I'm sure is/was one of the big drivers of the Onslaught fetch reprints) will hopefully help Legacy in the long run. Anything that isn't a substitution of Modern for Legacy, anyway.

Any deck playing Daze is unplayable without real lands, Yes, the poor player may return the basic Island, and keep the Steam Vents in play, but this is pretty often impossible due to the several factors like low lands count (and thus a need to play w/e the lad I got here and now), color requirements (and thus need for a dual to have both Bolt and Daze), anything else.
There are definitely lists that might operate on shocks maybe even supporting three colors, and those are called Nic Fit. I'm not exactly sure about the power level of that archetype, but looking at what the deck plays, I think that it might pretty well work with as little as one each of GB, WB and GW shock, not to speak about plaing green-black that maybe doesn't even need a dual/shock at all. Yes, it'll be limited, and it will be weak, but if the challenge is to build viable multicolored deck without duals, then Nic Fit might be solid, right? And yes, I know that there are monocolor or "colorless" decks like Burn or Affi, ones that are maybe even better than Nic Fit. My point is that IF there's a Legacy viable deck with nowadays cardpool that can work without ABU duals, than GB Explorer might be the one.
A small remark: I wouldn't call the post-Khans meta with its predictable decks and robotic gameplay "a more traditional sort of Magic", but it's a nitpick, I know...

[Finn]

Yes. Shocklands in Legacy are STRICTLY inferior. Anecdotal evidence to the contrary does nothing to change the obvious. There are simple ways to print lands that largely alleviate that issue without violating either the spirit or the letter of the reserved list. Annoyingly, Wizards has shown no interest in exploring these options. Doing such a thing would make Legacy far more accessible. Modern continues to get clear help in improving accessibility. One can draw but a single conclusion as to the intentions of the company.

With the infuriating practice of working hard to make this a monochromatic environment, I am rather sick about it all.

[FoolofaTook]

Fetches are pretty solid fixers in two color lists with basics. They're not ideal, but they enable things like Brainstorm+Fetch and lower the barrier to entry into Modern, which is probably going to be important to Legacy's long term growth. A deck like UR Delver can run reasonably well on something like 2 Steam Vents, 1 Volc, 1 (additional) basic, so a modern UR player can port their tier 1 deck into a tier 1 Legacy deck for ~$500-550 (1 Volc, 4 FoW) which is a much less scary amount than full freight on a Legacy deck. It's not a huge boost for Eternal formats, but I'll take what I can get.

You can't port the shocklands into Legacy and have the lists they're in do anything well. The only exception I've seen was a mediocre Death's Shadow list that wanted to hit itself hard for life early on.

There are a couple of people who occasionally play their Modern UR Delver lists in the Legacy locals and after I realize what they're doing I let them play the Steam Vents as Volcanic Islands because otherwise they lose the race every time.

[alderon666]

I tried playing UR Delver with only 2 Volcanics some time ago and it was horrible. I faced Wasteland all day and it came to the point where I couldn't fetch the lands I needed and couldn't cast all the spells in a single turn because I had a bunch of basics in play.

Later on I added a shockland to it, and it was even worse as I drew that crap every game and had to take 2 every time.

Nobody likes to play budget decks. That is no long term solution for anything.

[btm10]

I tried playing UR Delver with only 2 Volcanics some time ago and it was horrible. I faced Wasteland all day and it came to the point where I couldn't fetch the lands I needed and couldn't cast all the spells in a single turn because I had a bunch of basics in play.

Later on I added a shockland to it, and it was even worse as I drew that crap every game and had to take 2 every time.

Nobody likes to play budget decks. That is no long term solution for anything.

My point about UR was an aside at best. Also, I think your experience isn''t really representative, but again, an aside. That being said, aside from The Source's chronic malcontents and (apparently) conspiracy theorists, what's good for Modern is (in the long run) good for Legacy, and more fetchlands are good for Modern.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Yes. Shocklands in Legacy are STRICTLY inferior. Anecdotal evidence to the contrary does nothing to change the obvious. There are simple ways to print lands that largely alleviate that issue without violating either the spirit or the letter of the reserved list. Annoyingly, Wizards has shown no interest in exploring these options. Doing such a thing would make Legacy far more accessible. Modern continues to get clear help in improving accessibility. One can draw but a single conclusion as to the intentions of the company.

With the infuriating practice of working hard to make this a monochromatic environment, I am rather sick about it all.
Yep. I still believe that the only possible solution is a reprint of the duals at the very least, anything else than that will simply spell a death sentence over the format in years to come. Otoh, except for the staples lost in shuffle, there's no way how the number of cards in existence will dramatically decrease over the time of our lives, so it's not like we should be extremely caring about the future of the format. I mean: yes it sucks that the prices are absurd, but we used to bitch back when duals were for 12 bucks each and look, the game still exists, something something 4000 ppl GP.

Legacy will become a special people's affair, that's for sure. As long as you got your cards, you should be doing fine. The only thing that really matters is that the old gentlemen will vanish en masse (family issues, death of an old age, shitty gameplay, etc.) while there will be very few new players who can afford the crazy Eternal stuff. Legacy turns back into the state of cca mid-2000's and the lgs evenings (probably held by casual-competitive crowds) will sport as many as twelve particiants, "Just like the good old times, man," or any other Tsumi-like comment. :-)

For the most part of the last two years I firmly believed that WotC already spotted the issue and that they'll try to fix this. Never I believed that they're either ignorant of or even actively encouraging this state of affairs. This led me to a decission to "sell the RL stuff while it is still expensive, omg sky is falling!" and to rebuy it further down the road once the post-reprints prices hit the bottom.
A silly idea, yes, have all the fun you wish to. In return I'd be laughning while the format dies; if I cannot have fun (oh, thanks for Treasure Cruise, btw), then nobody will.
And speaking of reprints: they've done that with the fetches, so maybe I wasn't THAT wrong. Still shame the lost money...



My point about UR was an aside at best. Also, I think your experience isn''t really representative, but again, an aside. That being said, aside from The Source's chronic malcontents and (apparently) conspiracy theorists, what's good for Modern is (in the long run) good for Legacy, and more fetchlands are good for Modern.
Tin foil hat aside, what's your opinion on why WotC do not reprint their ABU money?

[Aggro_zombies]

WotC supporting Modern to a greater extent is a mixed bag for Legacy. On the plus side, it provides a good stepping stone format between Standard and Legacy, which both aids in player retention while easing people into this format. On the other hand, it also provides people an outlet who feel like Legacy is too expensive; I've personally seen several people cash out of Legacy for Modern in part because the high cost of this format locked them into decks that fell out of being competitive, or because they didn't have enough staples to build fully optimized versions of good decks. While there are many good Legacy cards that Wizards could reprint to support Modern (Delver, Thoughtseize, Snapcaster, etc.), many of the most expensive Legacy cards - the ones that really limit what decks you can build - either aren't Modern-playable (Force, Wasteland, Port, etc.) or are Reserved List protected (duals, LED, niche cards like Cradle, Tabernacle, etc.). Reprinting cards out of the first group in a Legacy Masters-type set only really enables you to build some Tier II or III decks like Death and Taxes, Burn, or Merfolk; for decks like XBlade, Delver, control, and most combo you will still need to acquire duals and possible other cards WotC won't reprint because of the Reserved List. Because of that, a Legacy Masters could very well make the format more expensive as people try to chase cards with a finite supply and no chances of reprints. As the financial barrier to entry goes up, more people will stay in Modern rather than progressing on to Legacy.

Shocks won't be competitive as long as duals are in the format. You could take the drastic action of banning the duals to make the mana cheaper, but that would have a bunch of drastic effects that would necessitate further bannings (have you ever Wastelanded a shock after someone took two? Feels good, man). As long as the cost to running additional colors remains low, mono-color decks will usually be at a disadvantage to multicolor decks, which means you'll still need duals if you want to be truly competitive.

[Lord Seth]

There are simple ways to print lands that largely alleviate that issue without violating either the spirit or the letter of the reserved list.The letter, maybe. What ways would there be to fix it without violating the spirit of the Reserved List? Even cards like Reverberate are now apparently considered against the spirit, as are gold-bordered cards.

[The Doctor]

The letter, maybe. What ways would there be to fix it without violating the spirit of the Reserved List? Even cards like Reverberate are now apparently considered against the spirit, as are gold-bordered cards.All BS anyways. If they hated the reserved list as much as they claim & consider it a mistake as is often stated, they wouldn't have a problem violating the spirit. The "spirit" claim is just Wizards talking out of their ass. At the end of the day, they could easily support Legacy if they wanted to. It all comes down to money and they've decided that supporting Legacy is not the way to go.

[FoolofaTook]

Yes. Shocklands in Legacy are STRICTLY inferior. Anecdotal evidence to the contrary does nothing to change the obvious. There are simple ways to print lands that largely alleviate that issue without violating either the spirit or the letter of the reserved list. Annoyingly, Wizards has shown no interest in exploring these options. Doing such a thing would make Legacy far more accessible. Modern continues to get clear help in improving accessibility. One can draw but a single conclusion as to the intentions of the company.

With the infuriating practice of working hard to make this a monochromatic environment, I am rather sick about it all.

The problem is that WotC doesn't like easily accessible two-color lands that are anywhere near the power level of duals. It takes away too much design space for the Standard they'd be in because they'd have to look really hard at the power levels of what got printed alongside those lands. Then they'd have the problem that people would talk about that Standard for years and compare following Standards in ways that were not complimentary and high-growth sales producing.

The solution is simple. WotC should print some limited edition dual lands with beautiful artwork and offer them only as trade-ins for existing duals with the understanding that they were going to print Modern Masters duals with less beautiful artwork shortly thereafter, in effect removing dual lands from the reserved list in the process.

Collectors get the choice of keeping their black-bordered alphas and betas, the rest of us trade in our white-bordered unlimited and revised for the "you can only get them this way foils (or whatever)" and both Modern and Legacy get an influx of real duals in the process. The price of duals goes down, with the exception of alpha, beta and presumably the traded-in-for foils (or whatever) and both eternal formats gain a major influx of players.

The Modern Masters with the new duals is the best selling Magic set of all time and it never touches Standard at all, preserving the "purity" and design space of the environment. The stores get to both trade-in their existing duals for presumably equally lucrative limited editions preserving their value in the deal and also sell Modern Masters.

Win for WotC, win for the stores, win for collectors and players for the most part, huge wins for Modern and Legacy.

[Gheizen64]

If they don't want to reprint duals because of the reserved list, there's an easy option that would make Legacy much cheaper: legendary dual lands printed in a commander precon. With all the fetches going around, you could feasibily play a mana base with 2 of those each (in a tricolored deck) and the rest of all fetches, with a real dual in between for example. It's simple, it would decrease costs a lot without devaluing old duals because they'd be still strictly better (but almost equivalent with fetches) and it would make a lot of money for them because everyone would be buying those precons.

Or they could print situationally better duals like Horizon Canopy, but they're too lazy for that. A complete cycle of the canopy lands would be a good start. Then there could be a lot of options for legacy-playable duals like:

Super Pain Land
Land
T: add B or R to your mana pool. Both players lose 1 life.

Coin Land
Land
ETB tapped.
T: add U or B to your mana pool.
If you started the game second, you may add a coin counter to this land as it ETB.
Remove a coin counter: add 1 of any color to your mana pool.


Recycle Land
Land
T: add 1 to your mana pool
T: add G or W to your mana pool. Use this ability only if there are no cards in all graveyards.
T: Exile target card from a graveyard.

Or even just good lands that promote mono-color to compete with dual slots like:

Anti-screw land
Land
When ETB, reveal the top 4 cards of your library. You may choose a basic land from them, add it to your hand, and put the rest on the bottom of the library in any order.
T: add 1.

Library of Baghdad
Land
T: add 1 to your mana pool.
T: draw a card, then discard a card. Use this ability only if you have exactly 7 cards in your hand.

Moon
Land
T: add 2 to your mana pool. Use this ability only if you control at least a basic land.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

This Fate Reforged thread is now about Obligatory Shitty Duals Creation Contest. But I'd love if this discussion on dual continue. Will anybody start a new thread? Or should it be copied/moved to the Reprints thread?


Speaking of Fate Reforged and fetches, I'm surprised they didn't reprint the ZEN ones so that the numbers of fetches available grow for the all colors. Maybe in the last set?

[Dice_Box]

Or MM2015.

[Barook]

Speaking of Fate Reforged and fetches, I'm surprised they didn't reprint the ZEN ones so that the numbers of fetches available grow for the all colors. Maybe in the last set?
The last set is going to build an own rotation block with Magic 2015, so it would sense to put Zendikar fetches into it.

[bruizar]

I hope a bunch more value cards will see print in fate reforged. Otherwise, all the value will be soaked up by Ugin, which will be a $$$ card due to commander and standard. I'm not sure how that card would fair in modern tron; but it's likely to see play in turbo eldrazi and mud even if its just experimental at first.

I also hope that there will be new 1 drop hybrid cards that make Pillar of the Paruns better. I would really like to see Pillar of the Paruns in legacy, but that would require more than just Deathrite Shaman in the 1 CC department. Being able to play with cards that normally would be impossible to put together due to anti-synergetic color requirements gives us so much deck design space.

[Finn]

This Fate Reforged thread is now about Obligatory Shitty Duals Creation Contest...They aren't shitty though. Those are fine quick examples of how simple it is to make stuff to take the pressure off of duals in some cases and replace them entirely in others.

[Chatto]

They aren't shitty though. Those are fine quick examples of how simple it is to make stuff to take the pressure off of duals in some cases and replace them entirely in others.

Well, they aren't exactly good examples either. To the point, duals will never and cannot be replaced. But perhaps, why not Snow-covered duals. Keeps everybody happy: players and RL.

Of course this will never happen, I know...:smile:

[Cire]

Honestly, I sometimes wonder if I am the only one who would be okay with the reserved list cards being banned. I also wonder how the format would look like: Modern with Force of Will and Brainstorm?

[Lemnear]

Honestly, I sometimes wonder if I am the only one who would be okay with the reserved list cards being banned. I also wonder how the format would look like: Modern with Force of Will and Brainstorm?

Not quite. You erase strategies which use lifepoints as a resource

[Bosque]

To get back on topic. Soulflayer looks interesting. Low delve cost, and depending on what other creatures you're playing could result in useful abilities that match the rest of your strategy. Gurmag Angler could be a dumb beater for a single black. Not mind boggling, but there may be possible roles.

[TsumiBand]

Soulflayer does look interesting, indeed. EDIT: part of what I hate about Delve is that it isn't a "build-around-me" mechanic, just something that incidentally works to reduce the cost of spells as you do things you'd be doing anyway (casting spells, cracking fetches, etc etc). So by making a dude that can cop some of the abilities of guys that ended up in the bucket, you start actually creating a reason to play Delve spells as more than an afterthought. It is still a bad idea to Delve away your whole deck, but if you can also just make an uber 4/4 like Soulflayer and just copy good abilities, it becomes more worth the trouble. Gah, in Standard with stupid Gods in the main, fairly easy to at least get a 4/4 Indestructible for 2 out of the deal. Trampleflying incidentally off of the other almost playable Delve guys as well; so, yeah, not half bad really.

Manifest looks like it could be pretty busted with low CC creatures with drawback. (Manifest = take a card from a zone (so far just the library) and put it on the battlefield as a face-down creature. If it is a creature you can turn it face up any time by paying its casting cost). The cheapest spoiled one so far is :1::w:, Manifest the top card of your library - so it still requires the old-gold deck stackers to really shine. Wonder how that works with Flicker effects and non-creature things; can I cheat a big enchantment into play for :1::w: and Cloudshift mana now? Hmm.

Dash is fun only because I always kinda liked the old Viashino Sligh type things. A strong enough Dash effect would be a good way to play repeater with ETB triggers or that other "only okay in Standard" thing, Raid.

[Cire]

On Topic:

Manifest and Dash are both actually pretty interesting. I don't know how good an individual card has to be to make it worth it though.

Off-Topic:


Not quite. You erase strategies which use lifepoints as a resource

So Control and Storm Combo?

[Darkenslight]

Soulflayer looks rather amusing in Standard and Modern, but I'm not sure about its applications in Legacy. I can see something hilarious about delving Vampire Nighthawk and Sigarda, Host of Herons, as that would give you a flying, lifelinking, Deathtouching, hexproof creature. Add in any God card and you can give it indestructible, too.

In addition, I smell an underrated card in Jeskai Sage, at least in Standard.

[TorpidNinja]

Wonder how that works with Flicker effects and non-creature things; can I cheat a big enchantment into play for :1::w: and Cloudshift mana now? Hmm.

Yes. If the Manifest'd card is a permanent card and it's flickered it remains on the battlefield face-up. If it's a sorcery/instant, when it's turned face-up by an effect it's immediately exiled. So, Cloudshift your Manifest'd Omnipotence, and you get an Omnipotence.

[Aggro_zombies]

Manifesting a Phyrexian Dreadnaught could be fun. Flips face-up for only one mana and doesn't trigger the EtB effect!

Nothing spoiled so far for Legacy. This set looks like it's going to be a real headache in competitive Limited events, though, especially if you aren't using the right manifest/morph reminders. "No, I swear, this face-down instant is totally the manifest guy!" I guess the argument is that you should just keep track of these things yourself, since you're not allowed to change the position of face-down cards while they're face down, but (1) that's extra mental work I'll have to do for something that won't matter 95% of the time because most opponents are honest and (2) WotC usually likes to avoid these sorts of non-obvious things by using some kind of additional marker that can serve as a reminder (usually +1/+1 counters - see the Monstrous mechanic and the 'volvers).

[Lemnear]

So Control and Storm Combo?

... and Reanimator, SneakShow, etc. ... Something along these lines. Question is, with what kind if decks you are left then

[Zombie]

... and Reanimator, SneakShow, etc. ... Something along these lines. Question is, with what kind if decks you are left then

7/7 pointy eared gits trampling everything so very dead?

[Barook]

Soulflayer is pretty good - at worst, it's a 4/4 for :b::b: with only 4 cards to delve. 2x fetch, cantrip, Gitaxian Probe, done. Although good is relative in a format with SFM + Batterskull.

As for its ability, I don't know which deck could probably utilize its ability - maybe back-up for Reanimator?

Manifest basically screams "DREADNOUGHT TIME, BITCHES!". TsumiBand already mentioned Cloudshift, but I'm rather in favor of Flickerwisp and Resto due to their body and extra utility. It all depends on how the rest of the manifest cards turn out. It's an interesting mechanic for sure, despite being another mechanic that gets fed by Brainstorm and consorts. Let's hope it isn't going to be another debacle like Miracles.

[Lemnear]

7/7 pointy eared gits trampling everything so very dead?

isn't Cradle on the RL?

[Zombie]

isn't Cradle on the RL?

It is ;_;

[Lord Seth]

All BS anyways. If they hated the reserved list as much as they claim & consider it a mistake as is often stated, they wouldn't have a problem violating the spirit. The "spirit" claim is just Wizards talking out of their ass.Just because you hate something doesn't mean you can go around it. The order apparently came from higher-ups to stick to the Reserved List, and it's implied the "spirit" of the Reserved List order was from there also. Doesn't matter how much you hate something if your boss tells you you can't do anything about it.


Well, they aren't exactly good examples either. To the point, duals will never and cannot be replaced. But perhaps, why not Snow-covered duals. Keeps everybody happy: players and RL.Pretty sure snow-covered duals violate the Reserved List even in letter. They still has the same card type (land) and same subtypes (the two basic land types). Adding "snow" doesn't change the card type or subtype. For that matter, this would also rule out legendary duals.

[Barook]

Pretty sure snow-covered duals violate the Reserved List even in letter. They still has the same card type (land) and same subtypes (the two basic land types). Adding "snow" doesn't change the card type or subtype. For that matter, this would also rule out legendary duals.
It was pretty clearly laid out that supertypes violate RL while subtypes don't. So


Maro's Seamen Cave
Land - Island Mountain Lair

would be a-OK if it wasn't for the dreaded "spirit" of the RL.

What they could do, however, is printing strictly better duals with some kind of irrelevant upside.

[joven]

Pretty sure snow-covered duals violate the Reserved List even in letter. They still has the same card type (land) and same subtypes (the two basic land types). Adding "snow" doesn't change the card type or subtype. For that matter, this would also rule out legendary duals.

IMO, it doesn't make sense that the dual lands are on the reserved list, they're barely more than basic lands (at least to me). I say take them of the reserved list and ban the rest of the cards that are on the reserved list.
It's a good compromise. The value the dual lands have is mostly because they are needed for playing. And the Beta and Alpha ones probably won't even lose that much value, because they are the real collectors' stuff.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

IMO, it doesn't make sense that the dual lands are on the reserved list, they're barely more than basic lands (at least to me). I say take them of the reserved list and ban the rest of the cards that are on the reserved list.
It's a good compromise. The value the dual lands have is mostly because they are needed for playing. And the Beta and Alpha ones probably won't even lose that much value, because they are the real collectors' stuff.

There are ABU-MMQ rares on the RL, amirite? You'd destroy the whole format in one swing. Thanks, no. I'd rather have the list killed.

[LOLWut]

It was pretty clearly laid out that supertypes violate RL while subtypes don't. So



would be a-OK if it wasn't for the dreaded "spirit" of the RL.

What they could do, however, is printing strictly better duals with some kind of irrelevant upside.
You better hope that WotC tacks on a creature type to a dual land then. That's your best bet; making everything creatures makes WotC's nipples SO hard.


IMO, it doesn't make sense that the dual lands are on the reserved list, they're barely more than basic lands (at least to me). I say take them of the reserved list and ban the rest of the cards that are on the reserved list.
It's a good compromise. The value the dual lands have is mostly because they are needed for playing. And the Beta and Alpha ones probably won't even lose that much value, because they are the real collectors' stuff.
You've never tried to pry a Lion's Eye Diamond out of a Storm player's hands, have you?

[TsumiBand]

What they could do, however, is printing strictly better duals with some kind of irrelevant upside.

Except for that whole Reverberate not having the irrelevant "the copy is Red" text from Fork didn't make it any less of a near-miss. Irrelevance is irrelevant, unfortunately; it seems more like "functional reprint" is less of a pinpoint idea and more like a... functional restraining order. "Your card may not be within 50 feet of Reserve List functionality...."

Anyway, fucking Fate Reforged? Modal is a pretty cool guy, eh makes one spell like two or three and doesn't afraid of anything

[Barook]

Not that it's Legacy-relevant, I wonder what pushed them to print a strictly better Collective Unconscious that is not only 1 mana cheaper, but also has the Ferocious bonus.

[YamiJoey]

Because the card is crap and they kind of want Green card draw for fun casual decks, that could possibly break the mirror?

[megamau]

Overground sea: island - swamp
When Overground sea enters the battlefield, all players gain 1 life.


Back on topic, the delve guy looks nice in some kind of Nick fit /maverick strategy.

[cartoonist]

I can see a reverse shock, one that gives your opponent two life. But that's probably as close as we'll ever get.

[Aggro_zombies]

Let's get this thread back on topic. Keep dual land suggestions in the Shitty Card Creation thread.

[Sylphnir]

As expected...

Picture (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6GGujRCQAAMMOM.jpg)
Temporal Trespass :8::u::u::u:
Sorcery (Mythic Rare)
Delve
Take an extra turn after this one.
Exile Temporal Trespass.
Few truly live in the moment.

[Norm]

As expected...

Picture (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6GGujRCQAAMMOM.jpg)
Temporal Trespass :8::u::u::u:
Sorcery (Mythic Rare)
Delve
Take an extra turn after this one.
Exile Temporal Trespass.
Few truly live in the moment.

Thank god it wasn't UU. This isn't actually that great imo.

[Barook]

Hardly abusable with :u::u::u: in its cost and TC and DTT already being in the format which are both likely better than this.

[Norm]

The only impact this card is going to have is on the wallets of unlucky players who buy them at the $30 or more they're listed on Ebay for. I predict this card hits junk mythic status very quickly, but I'd love for someone to prove me wrong on that.

[Vicar in a tutu]

Hardly abusable with :u::u::u: in its cost and TC and DTT already being in the format which are both likely better than this.
I would love to see really powerful, nonblue effects with Delve. Cards that could rival TC and DTT, and that forces players to make a choice (now there isn't really a choice, since DTT and TC are so much more powerful than anything else).

[Barook]

I would love to see really powerful, nonblue effects with Delve. Cards that could rival TC and DTT, and that forces players to make a choice (now there isn't really a choice, since DTT and TC are so much more powerful than anything else).
What about a Delve Demonic Tutor? Or a Delve Yawgmoth's Will (note the anti-synergy with itself, which makes it rather interesting)? I don't think Green has that many interesting effects you could slap Delve on.

[Vicar in a tutu]

What about a Delve Demonic Tutor? Or a Delve Yawgmoth's Will (note the anti-synergy with itself, which makes it rather interesting)? I don't think Green has that many interesting effects you could slap Delve on.
Delve Demonic Tutor could be interesting, but it would most likely (depending on cost) just be another cog in the combo-machine. They don't necessarily have to reprint old cards with Delve-effects, they could print a big, green fattie with powerful enters the battlefield effects, with Delve. Or how about a planeswalker with Delve?

[TsumiBand]

Strongly doubt Delve Time Walk will be any more or less important than Temporal Mastery. If being a Miracle baby wasn't good enough, fighting draw spells for Delve slots will just be a strike against.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Strongly doubt Delve Time Walk will be any more or less important than Temporal Mastery. If being a Miracle baby wasn't good enough, fighting draw spells for Delve slots will just be a strike against.

Yes, but it's another take on another blue "iconic" card. The pattern is more and more boring and obvious. Not to mention the art... srsly, I'm not into this kind of tawdry things, but yeah, teen guys love that. A black Delvonic Tutor or green Delvgrowth, now that'll be interesting cards. The green one should return two and exile itself, lest it'll be crap compared to Regrowth, but a better priced Restock with a subgame of "what should I delve and what should I return?" would be interesting. Maybe not. But lets keep this for the Obligatory Thread...

[TsumiBand]

Oh don't get me wrong, I'd as soon see stronger Green and Black Delve cards. I just don't think this Time Walk matters. Reprints happen, sometimes it isn't worth over analysing. I'm not pissed that Delve Ape is a 4/4 trampler like my cousin Arrogant Wurm.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Oh don't get me wrong, I'd as soon see stronger Green and Black Delve cards. I just don't think this Time Walk matters. Reprints happen, sometimes it isn't worth over analysing. I'm not pissed that Delve Ape is a 4/4 trampler like my cousin Arrogant Wurm.

Arrogant Wurm isnt't Time Walk... :laugh:
The new TW mght be interesting in UR Pyromancer decks. Although it fights over slots with TC, it might be good as a one or two of. In a deck designed to misuse graveyard and cantrips (maybe even ditch Swiftspear?) this might be pretty powerful. Delver and token beats with occasional Walk?

[Barook]

Arrogant Wurm isnt't Time Walk... :laugh:
The new TW mght be interesting in UR Pyromancer decks. Although it fights over slots with TC, it might be good as a one or two of. In a deck designed to misuse graveyard and cantrips (maybe even ditch Swiftspear?) this might be pretty powerful. Delver and token beats with occasional Walk?
Tripple blue plus 8 cards to delve is still pretty harsh for UR Delver to cast compared to Treasure Cruise. Shitting out "hasty" tokens and getting extra swings with Delver is nice, but it has to battle with TC for slots.

As far as Delve spells go, I'd fully expect them to print some dumb, big, green vanilla fatty.

[TsumiBand]

No right I know, Arrogant Wurm is no Time Walk. But it's still a card that's been seen before with a new paint job. 4/4 Tramplers aren't exactly new tech, and undercosting them with an enabler is an old trick as well - Madness, Affinity, whatever-the-hell-else, etc. The point though is that the reprint isn't the problem, it's the perceived power level of the reprint.

Which, honestly as a triple-Blue casting cost, I don't think is too crazy and will probably keep it out of a lot of decks.

Here's hoping for that Wild Mongrel with Outlast reprint. *fingers fucking crossssssssed*

[rxavage]

What about a Delve Demonic Tutor? Or a Delve Yawgmoth's Will (note the anti-synergy with itself, which makes it rather interesting)? I don't think Green has that many interesting effects you could slap Delve on.

I've been anticipating this and still hopeful. Green could get Something Tooth and Nail like, maybe even a single target tutor that outs the creature on the battlefield. I don't know what it would have to cost cmc wise, possibly XG fetch critter with cmc<= X.

[TsumiBand]

I've been anticipating this and still hopeful. Green could get Something Tooth and Nail like, maybe even a single target tutor that outs the creature on the battlefield. I don't know what it would have to cost cmc wise, possibly XG fetch critter with cmc<= X.

Delve Sun's Zenith? I could see that.

Too bad they won't do like a Sorcery version of the Sylvan Library effect;

:5::g::g:
Sorcery

Delve

Draw 3 cards, then put some back or pay life clown

Ohhhhh wellllll.

[Valtrix]

I'd love to see a delve balance.

While the "take the old card and put delve on it" feels like a lazy design process, that's not exactly true. People enjoy playing iconic cards from Magic, but they can't legitimately reprint them. So, designing them with delve is a way to allow people to get the feeling of playing some of these iconic cards. To us, the design might seem lazy, but I imagine a modicum of thought goes into how the player feels when casting certain spells.

[rxavage]

I'd love to see a delve balance.

Delve balance would be sweet, but white doesn't get delve. Wizards should've printed a miracles Balance. I'm kind of hoping for a 3cmc 2/4 flyer with etb to be printed in Reforged, I think my modern pod deck could really use it.

[Barook]

Well, shit.

http://media.wizards.com/2014/ujehvsbfrf153/en_lw5yaa6hq8.png

Lifelink for spells is kinda weird, but 4 mana buyback for any spell? With the amount of free/1-mana spells in the format, this guy is going to do alot, and it isn't going to be pretty.

[HSCK]

I thought we weren't doing this card creation thing anymore....

Soulfire Grandmaster could have some potential with its lifelink ability, the buyback might be just a tad too expensive.

[Barook]

I thought we weren't doing this card creation thing anymore....

Soulfire Grandmaster could have some potential with its lifelink ability, the buyback might be just a tad too expensive.
Buybacking Fireblast for the finish or FoW in longer games sound like powerful options. There are quite a few things that could be explored.

Yes, the buyback ability isn't cheap, but I wouldn't underestimate it, especially in decks that can run blue to slow your opponent down.

[Vicar in a tutu]

Awesome card! I love it! Unique ability too.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

The "your spells have lifelink" reminds me of Un-Sets.

[Vicar in a tutu]

On second thought, the card sucks. It should have been "Instants and sorceries you control have banding."

[Darkenslight]

I thought we weren't doing this card creation thing anymore....

Soulfire Grandmaster could have some potential with its lifelink ability, the buyback might be just a tad too expensive.

No, the Soulfire Grandmaster is broken as shit in Modern, even without taking into account the whole 'Buyback :2: :ur: :ur: " thing. It's also really powerful with the Reflect Damage class of cards....like Deflecting Palm and Lighning Bolt.

I think it has minor Legacy applications (the lifeliking spells is marginally relevant for Burn variants) but overall, initial impressions are that it's no Stoneforge or YP.

[iamajellydonut]

In other news, does anyone else feel like the quality of flavor text has reached an all time low?

[Lemnear]

So Lightning Helix deals 3 damage, gives you 3 life and an additional 3 lifepoints via lifelink? How does this Spell-lifelink interact with lifeloss?

[iamajellydonut]

How does this Spell-lifelink interact with lifeloss?

The same way direct lifeloss has always interacted with regards to damage effects.

ie: It doesn't.

[btm10]

Well, shit.

http://media.wizards.com/2014/ujehvsbfrf153/en_lw5yaa6hq8.png

Lifelink for spells is kinda weird, but 4 mana buyback for any spell? With the amount of free/1-mana spells in the format, this guy is going to do alot, and it isn't going to be pretty.

This card looks awesome. If it is half as cool as it looks, I may finally play a non-Enchantress white deck in Legacy.


In other news, does anyone else feel like the quality of flavor text has reached an all time low?

Yes.


As for Lifelink with life loss, I don't think it will do anything because the rules on lifelink explicitly reference "damage".


702.15b Damage dealt by a source with lifelink causes that source’s controller, or its owner if it has no controller, to gain that much life (in addition to any other results that damage causes). See rule 119.3.

[Ace/Homebrew]

In other news, does anyone else feel like the quality of flavor text has reached an all time low?

At least they aren't resorting to terrible puns...

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=12387&type=card

[Monkey_Island]

Soulfire Grandmaster is interesting with Seething Song: makes infinite red mana... once you have 7 to start the combo!

[Ace/Homebrew]

Soulfire Grandmaster is interesting with Seething Song: makes infinite red mana... once you have 7 to start the combo!

Sf Gm in play, Seething Song in hand. Seven Mountains on the board.
Tap 3, play SS. Tap other 4 to buyback. Make 5 red mana and Seething Song returns to your hand.
Pretty sure you net -2 mana on each iteration...

But your Seething Songs have lifelink! So you have that going for you. :tongue:

[Cire]

Soulfire Grandmaster is interesting with Seething Song: makes infinite red mana... once you have 7 to start the combo!

And Infinite turns with Time Warp . . . if you have 9 mana :/

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Soulfire Grandmaster is interesting with Seething Song: makes infinite red mana... once you have 7 to start the combo!

Yeah this guy is good, I mean he is a lifelink bear with a wall off ability's. But I doubt that you really want to go combo with him!

Oooor.... you splash white in high tides^^

[Cire]

If in doubt throw him into the GENERIC TREASURE CRUISE SHELL

4 Young Pyromancer
4 Soulfire Grandmaster

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Force of Will
4 Lighting Bolt
4 STP
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Helix

9 Fetchlands
1 basiclands
6 Dual Lands

[TsumiBand]

If in doubt throw him into the GENERIC TREASURE CRUISE SHELL

4 Young Pyromancer
4 Soulfire Grandmaster

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Force of Will
4 Lighting Bolt
4 STP
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Helix

9 Fetchlands
1 basiclands
6 Dual Lands

Needs more Blasphemous Act.

[iamajellydonut]

Needs more Blasphemous Act.

I just got a big, raging deck idea.

[btm10]

I just got a big, raging deck idea.

Does it involve Test of Endurance?

[iamajellydonut]

Does it involve Test of Endurance?

It involves mother fuckin' Swaaaans.

[TsumiBand]

Soulfire Grand Master does kind of make "damage to each player/creature" spells a bit non-fair, right? Where's my Flame Rift at, I have like 20 of them for no good reason. Price of Progress seems like a no-brainer too; you can't actually kill yourself with PoP as long as you control SGM.

Some weird list with like, SFM and Sunforger and some accursed brew of things that find SGM and profit with damaging spells is kicking around in me noggin. Holy Tommy Gun 14.0.2-5r4, nnnngh

[Monkey_Island]

Sf Gm in play, Seething Song in hand. Seven Mountains on the board.
Tap 3, play SS. Tap other 4 to buyback. Make 5 red mana and Seething Song returns to your hand.
Pretty sure you net -2 mana on each iteration...

But your Seething Songs have lifelink! So you have that going for you. :tongue:

Ahah that is what I get for drinking too much alcohol during the holidays season! Sorry guys, I didn't break the format!

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Some weird list with like, SFM and Sunforger and some accursed brew of things that find SGM and profit with damaging spells is kicking around in me noggin. Holy Tommy Gun 14.0.2-5r4, nnnngh

Should we try a chant lock?

Sunforger seems nice, there is already a very janky sunforger/combo thread on theSource!

As for the timmy deck, yeah Blasphemous Act with stuffy doll and this guy why not...

[Cire]

Idk - I really do think that throwing anything into the generic treasure cruise shell makes a decent deck. This card especially works well with the burn spells, which in turn work well with cruise. You could replace the Helix with POP, but other than that, I don't think you're going to break this card. It is just a 2/2 white bear with lifelink that plays well with burn, and helps you in the end game. :tongue:

[PirateKing]

It involves mother fuckin' Swaaaans.

Did I hear Chain of Plasma's BFF?

[iamajellydonut]

did i hear chain of plasma's bff?

YUP.

I love Swans so much.

[rufus]

It involves mother fuckin' Swaaaans.

I was expecting Training Grounds.

[iamajellydonut]

I was expecting Training Grounds.

That idea is shit. Swans or die, mother fucker. Swans or die.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

That idea is shit. Swans or die, mother fucker. Swans or die.

But why swan with Soulfire Grandmaster? I dont see the connection... Its not like that you need buyback or lifelink once youu combo

[Anen]

If in doubt throw him into the GENERIC TREASURE CRUISE SHELL

4 Young Pyromancer
4 Soulfire Grandmaster

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Force of Will
4 Lighting Bolt
4 STP
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Helix

9 Fetchlands
1 basiclands
6 Dual Lands

I am not sure how do you expect to consistently reach 5 mana (4+1) in the generic UR shell that has a grand total of 16 lands.. And I won't play him only for using his lifelink ability.

[Cire]

I am not sure how do you expect to consistently reach 5 mana (4+1) in the generic UR shell that has a grand total of 16 lands.. And I won't play him only for using his lifelink ability.

you too good for 1 mana helixes :tongue:

[Bed Decks Palyer]

But why swan with Soulfire Grandmaster? I dont see the connection... Its not like that you need buyback or lifelink once youu combo

Because you wont to find the Chain to combo and Bolt Forking your Swans helps in that task. In case you have no Swans, burn their face or their YP.
You simply go BoP, SGM, SoBA, Training Grounds, burn, buyback, draw much, burn a lot, frok the burn, draw a lot, gain life, Chain of Plasma, win. Easy.

[iamajellydonut]

Brace yourselves for a combo that defies all known levels of sex appeal...

Forbidden Orchard
Swan Song
Blasphemous Act

Add in the new mono-colored Tamanoa, and you have a life total they can't touch. Add in Swans of Bryn Argoll, and you have a Braingeyser from hell.

[Darkenslight]

Brace yourselves for a combo that defies all known levels of sex appeal...

Forbidden Orchard
Swan Song
Blasphemous Act

Add in the new mono-colored Tamanoa, and you have a life total they can't touch. Add in Swans of Bryn Argoll, and you have a Braingeyser from hell.

Welp, Jeskai Ascendancy just got a new Friend!

[Aggro_zombies]

Brace yourselves for a combo that defies all known levels of sex appeal...

Forbidden Orchard
Swan Song
Blasphemous Act

Add in the new mono-colored Tamanoa, and you have a life total they can't touch. Add in Swans of Bryn Argoll, and you have a Braingeyser from hell.
This sounds like the spiciest of meatballs.

[Sylphnir]

I'm kinda sad that manifest omits ETB effects of affected creatures.
That devaluates the usability of stuff like the Whisperwood Elemental (http://media.wizards.com/2014/ujehvsbfrf153/en_bjph4xy49v.png) as plain draw engine in creature heavy decks imo.
On the plus side: (ab)using Phyrexian Dreadnought is now easier than ever. Some people may love it more this way!

[rufus]

I'm kinda sad that manifest omits ETB effects of affected creatures.
That devaluates the usability of stuff like the Whisperwood Elemental (http://media.wizards.com/2014/ujehvsbfrf153/en_bjph4xy49v.png) as plain draw engine in creature heavy decks imo.
On the plus side: (ab)using Phyrexian Dreadnought is now easier than ever. Some people may love it more this way!

Morph cards are templated with "when ~ is turned face up" so you can manifest Fathom Seer for :1::u: and so on.


Edit:
Also, how does manifest interact with transform?


711.5. A double-faced card enters the battlefield with its front face up unless a spell or ability puts it onto the battlefield “transformed,” in which case it enters the battlefield with its back face up.

[death]

I find this interesting, the card Illusionary Mask is on the Reserved list, they turned its ability, to cast face down creatures into a mechanic, although playing the real mask is still more efficient since you wouldn't have to pay the creature's full cost.

Except, manifest sucks since you would need library manipulation for it to work like Mask.

[TsumiBand]

What happens when you manifest Delver of Secrets? I know the rules for Transform creatures says you cannot turn them face down (if an effect would turn a 2FC face down, nothing happens), but does it still try to enter the battlefield?

[danyul]

I think Tsumi just found the next MODO glitch.

[Humphrey]

what happens if you manifest a delver?

I suppose you have to youse the checkcards and use them as 2/2


but manifest is just to unintuitive. flicker spells, unmorph spells, boardstate when you cast morphs etc etc. its cheaters heaven

[death]

Not sure how they will address this in MODO but you can cover the insect part with this overlay card and turn it face up as Delver of Secrets for :u:.
http://media.wizards.com/2014/ujehvsbfrf153/en_ibt6mxwxfd.png

[HugSeal]

Not sure how they will address this in MODO but you can cover the insect part with this overlay card and turn it face up as Delver of Secrets for :u:.
http://media.wizards.com/2014/ujehvsbfrf153/en_ibt6mxwxfd.png

And here's some confirmation on that:
http://tabakrules.tumblr.com/post/106521212184/what-happens-if-you-manifest-the-top-card-of-your

[TsumiBand]

Ahh, it's a bit of a pivot then from previous notions that dual faced cards don't actually have a 'face down', just a front face up or back face up. Or maybe it's a clever side-step since cards in one's library tend to (not) have certain characteristics.

Front face down, back face up, that's the way we like to Manifest

[Bed Decks Palyer]

This game's turning into a real mess...
eidt: into mess.

I hope that there will be no Legacy-playable manifest things, especially not ones that positively interact with flip/transform cards. We definitely don't need more Chaos Orbs.

[Lemnear]

This game's turning into a real mess...
eidt: into mess.

I hope that there will be no Legacy-playable manifest things, especially not ones that positively interact with flip/transform cards. We definitely don't need more Chaos Orbs.

Pfffff ... WotC keeps fucking with Layouts since the Timespiral colorshifted cards and the future border and mess with the basic rules since the two-faced cards. Morph and the 2FC are a Nightmare to Co-exist anyways and now we have morph with cardadvantage

[rufus]

...
I hope that there will be no Legacy-playable manifest things, especially not ones that positively interact with flip/transform cards. We definitely don't need more Chaos Orbs.

Jeskai Infiltrator looks very much like a card with that kind of potential - it's got a cc that's well matched to trinisphere and the potential to take over games.

[TsumiBand]

Jeskai Infiltrator looks very much like a card with that kind of potential - it's got a cc that's well matched to trinisphere and the potential to take over games.

Isn't it kind of a shitty Goblin Lackey though? Like, it has Awesome and all, but... just being able to make a 2/2 every other turn or so (you have to pay its "not Morph cost" to reflip it) while operating under 3Sphere seems like a tough row to hoe. Even for Blue.

Like I'd almost rather see Goblins attempt the prison route, than see what happens with Jeskai Infiltrator in the same position. Meh I dunno.

[death]

Just when I thought they're done printing annoying creatures like Ninja of the Deep Hours.


http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/65/969/635555315891579858.png

[Cire]

How is this card good? 2U to deal 2 unblockable damage and then get two vanilla 2/2's one of which can, for 3 mana, make another 2/2 if unblocked, and the other could, with library manipulation, be a 12/12 for 1. Seems like a lot of work.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I think that it's an interesting card with a unique effect.

[TsumiBand]

Just when I thought they're done printing annoying creatures like Ninja of the Deep Hours.


http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/65/969/635555315891579858.png

Yeah no, Jeskai Infiltrator fucking wishes he were Ninja of the Deep Hours, but he is not.

It *is* an interesting effect to be sure, but I don't see it really being a BFD.

[maharis]

http://mythicspoiler.com/frf/cards/outpostsiege.jpg

It's kind of a red Phyrexian Arena. Under the radar, but could help some decks out there.

[iamajellydonut]

http://mythicspoiler.com/frf/cards/outpostsiege.jpg

It's kind of a red Phyrexian Arena.

Chandra already exists with this exact ability. And she's terrible.

[maharis]

Chandra can be attacked, and if you want to use her +, you don't get the card.

This card is a draw engine on its own and a breakable draw engine with any number of library manipulators in Legacy. It could make some noise.

[Star|Scream]

Chandra can be attacked, and if you want to use her +, you don't get the card.

This card is a draw engine on its own and a breakable draw engine with any number of library manipulators in Legacy. It could make some noise.

Huh? How is it breakable?

[rufus]

Isn't it kind of a shitty Goblin Lackey though? Like, it has Awesome and all, but... just being able to make a 2/2 every other turn or so (you have to pay its "not Morph cost" to reflip it) while operating under 3Sphere seems like a tough row to hoe. Even for Blue.

It's not competitive anymore, but Sea Drake and Serendib Efreet were cards for a while. You play this guy for :2::u: face-up, and, unless they answer, you get 4 power. Maybe even ride him home with Trinisphere or Chalice of the Void @ 1.

[FoolofaTook]

Yeah no, Jeskai Infiltrator fucking wishes he were Ninja of the Deep Hours, but he is not.

It *is* an interesting effect to be sure, but I don't see it really being a BFD.

I think he's going to be a big deal, even in Legacy. A free 2/2 off of an unblockable creature is going to create some nice options for mid-range. Obviously there are some cards he will work really well with, like Phyrexian Dreadnought and Cabal Therapy but really just having the chump block plus unblockable damage will be good in top deck mode.

I don't think he's going to be a game-breaking card but I think he'll find a list or two that makes him nasty.

[Cire]

I think he's going to be a big deal, even in Legacy. A free 2/2 off of an unblockable creature is going to create some nice options for mid-range. Obviously there are some cards he will work really well with, like Phyrexian Dreadnought and Cabal Therapy but really just having the chump block plus unblockable damage will be good in top deck mode.

I don't think he's going to be a game-breaking card but I think he'll find a list or two that makes him nasty.

He is no longer unblock-able when he makes the 2/2, even if you flip him over again.

[iamajellydonut]

Chandra ... if you want to use her +, you don't get the card.

And if you choose "Dragons" you don't get the card either. What's your point?

[Rizso]

Chandra already exists with this exact ability. And she's terrible.

Chandra might no be played much in legacy outside of painterdecks but in standard and in modern she is quite powerful.

[thecrav]

http://static.starcitygames.com/www/images/article/MonasteryMentor.png

Young Pyro that poops out nearly-Swiftspears for the same combined CMC? I'm definitely interested.

[lordofthepit]

http://static.starcitygames.com/www/images/article/MonasteryMentor.png

Young Pyro that poops out nearly-Swiftspears for the same combined CMC? I'm definitely interested.

I hate R&D for making this card.

Turn 3 fantasy land: This card, Probe, Probe, Probe, Petal, Concordant Crossroads. Swing for 7 + 5 + 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 22.

[Rizso]

Monastery Mentor looks like a quite a card especially if playing with Tops and/or Probes / Therapy in the deck.

[thecrav]

I hate R&D for making this card.

Turn 3 fantasy land: This card, Probe, Probe, Probe, Petal, Concordant Crossroads. Swing for 7 + 5 + 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 22.

While we're in fantasy land, why is it turn 3? We're playing Lotus Petal because it triggers the ability, right?

[lordofthepit]

While we're in fantasy land, why is it turn 3? We're playing Lotus Petal because it triggers the ability, right?

I just wanted to illustrate how fast of a clock this could put on by itself.

[Barook]

So that card turned out to be true after being spoiled a while ago?

Hard to say how the extra mana (and off-color? :really: ) is going affect its playability compared to YP since it has a stronger body and stronger, potentially more resiliant tokens. I wouldn't be suprised if we see come kind of UWR shell which runs both Monastery Mentor and Young Pyromancer.

Looks like the powerlevel of Fate Reforged is going to be pretty decent, although I hate how all interesting cards are essentially tailor-made for blue-based shells, with Grandmaster maybe going into some kind of RW Burn deck.

[Sylphnir]

Looks like the new year starts kinda expensive for white players of all formats.

[Wanderlust]

Helm of Awakening + Top + Top + Monastery Mentor could be worth looking at. Obviously Altar of the Brood is cheaper, but Monastery Mentor is really good outside of the combo. Monastery Mentor can also be cast off of Cavern of Souls.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Why in the hell is Monastery Mentor mythic?

He's very good, but not back-breaking in Limited and he's not all that big/complex. Seems like this set's Voice of Resurgence. Can't wait to hear Wizard's excuse this time...

[Bobmans]

http://s3.gatheringmagic.com/uploads/2015/01/01/Shu-Yun-the-Silent-Tempest.jpg

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/65/968/635555314241792975.png

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/65/993/200/283/635556176774833948.png

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/134/743/635556637507898693.jpg

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/63/118/200/283/386608.full.jpg

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/51/25/200/283/370600.full.jpg

Just add some cantrips, bolts, plows and counterspells and you get some action...

[AznSeal]

Imagine this deck...
x4 Seeker of the Way
x4 Monastery Mentor

x4 Gitaxian Probe
x4 Brainstorm
x4 Ponder
x4 Preordain
x4 Daze
x4 Force of Will
x4 Treasure Cruise
x4 Swords to Plowshares

x4 Lotus Petal
x4 Polluted Delta
x4 Flooded Strand
x4 Scalding Tarn
x4 Tundra

[Lemnear]

Dear god if Monastery Mentor for was 1W. UWR ruling the format D:

[rufus]

Why in the hell is Monastery Mentor mythic?

He's the chase card version of Young Pyromancer.

[Cire]

welp - another card to slot into the YP/Treasure cruise shell

Also Shu Yu looks good as well

1) He has Awesome
2) The turn after you play him - if you cast a spell he is attacking for 4 Double Strike. . .

[Grand Superior]

Why in the hell is Monastery Mentor mythic?

He's very good, but not back-breaking in Limited and he's not all that big/complex. Seems like this set's Voice of Resurgence. Can't wait to hear Wizard's excuse this time...

I think they're going to go with "Tokens with Prowess that get produced by things that trigger Prowess is Mythic-level complexity." :rolleyes:

It really didn't need to be Mythic. SCG is already sold out at $20 and it's surely going to rise.

Also, be sure to hoard every single 1/1 white Monk token with prowess that you can find. It's already next to impossible to find Young Pyromancer's 1/1 red Elementals.

[aCatNamedBootsy]

http://media.wizards.com/2014/ujehvsbfrf153/en_uaeht1tvvh.png

A playable siege that can filter away extra copies of itself if need be. Can also be grabbed with Zur in EDH.

[Bobmans]

http://media.wizards.com/2014/ujehvsbfrf153/en_uaeht1tvvh.png

A playable siege that can filter away extra copies of itself if need be. Can also be grabbed with Zur in EDH.
Does the Khans ability stack one multiples?

[Philipp2293]

I really like the blue Siege as it is a Chill-like card which doesn't have bad synergy with Punishing Fire. Also the other mode works well with Fire too. I will at least test in the SB of my Punishing Control brew.

[iamajellydonut]

Does the Khans ability stack one multiples?

Each trigger is put onto the stack and resolves separately. So, yes, it "stacks".

Anyway, as much as I like the blue Siege, it kinda falls into the same pile that the red one does. The effects already exist on exceptionally comparable cards. Giving you the choice between those two effects is nice, but you're still choosing between two effects you've already decided you can do without. People haven't played Thassa despite its hype. Why should they play this?

[Rizso]

Does the Khans ability stack one multiples?

They do stack. Kahns ability triggers for each seige and dragon ability adds mana cost for each seige.

[Barook]

Each trigger is put onto the stack and resolves separately. So, yes, it "stacks".

Anyway, as much as I like the blue Siege, it kinda falls into the same pile that the red one does. The effects already exist on exceptionally comparable cards. Giving you the choice between those two effects is nice, but you're still choosing between two effects you've already decided you can do without. People haven't played Thassa despite its hype. Why should they play this?
Thassa does something completely different - that's a poor comparisson.

Torrent Elemental :4::u:
Creature - Elemental
Flying
Whenever Torrent Elemental attacks, tap all creatures defending player controls.
:3: :b:/:g: :b:/:g:: Return Torrent Elemental from exile to the battlefield tapped. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery.
3/5

Probably too expensive for Legacy, but that's damn annoying ability as it basically reads: Creatures your opponent controls can't block.

[YamiJoey]

Looks like the 'Return from exile' ability is going up in the Food Chain.

[Poron]

LOL Young Pyromancer that creates Swiftspears instead of 1/1 vanilla?

You just need Haste and 1 of those O_O

[Poron]

haha at the ninth token + Jeskay Ascendancy: Ashling's Prerogative
"even. attack"

edit: no sorry, better

Anger

free draw with Jeskai and same turn kill.

This deck can be mono U with very little white and red for these 2 cards (Ascendancy and Mentor)

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Thassa does something completely different - that's a poor comparisson.

Torrent Elemental :4::u:
Creature - Elemental
Flying
Whenever Torrent Elemental attacks, tap all creatures defending player controls.
:3: :b:/:g: :b:/:g:: Return Torrent Elemental from exile to the battlefield tapped. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery.
3/5

Probably too expensive for Legacy, but that's damn annoying ability as it basically reads: Creatures your opponent controls can't block.

Make a thepiratbay altered art already! NEEED

[Barook]

Looks like the 'Return from exile' ability is going up in the Food Chain.
It's not "cast", so it doesn't work: Food Chain

[death]

Monastery Mentor makes me wanna play white, stockpile on white duals (I have all UBG duals+Volcanic), and start hoarding this token:

https://40.media.tumblr.com/8f472d8777fbff66f72a7920d2bbc743/tumblr_nhhg5kRdgq1ty8k44o1_400.jpg

I expect a price increase of basic Plains in 2015 too.

With Gitaxian Probe+Brainstorm+Ponder+Treasure Cuise all legal he could easily be broken, wait for it.... in J-e-s-k-a-i. The synergies with Swords, burn spells and Young Pyromancer are much higher impact than with Esper (:b:)- or Bant (:g:)-splash. Opposing Dark Confidant doesn't measure up to Treasure Cruise + spot removal, likewise Tarmogoyf will stare blankly at this token generator.

Dark Confidant
Tarmogoyf
Stoneforge Mystic (?)
Snapcaster Mage (?)
Young Pyromancer

See a pattern? and why is Monk mythic rare you ask? Because he should've been a Planeswalker. In summary, any "Control" deck that doesn't play Terminus + Counter-Top will never be anything but tier 2.

[Poron]

It's not "cast", so it doesn't work: Food Chain

it's useless anyway. Griffin + Manipulate Fate and, in case of perversion, Living Wish can make the Griffin Count up to 11 on 60.

7 is enough though...

[Barook]

Mass Hysteria fits probably better into the Monastery Mentor colors than its green cousin.

My favorite so far are loot effects like Faithless Looting and/or Jeskai Ascendancy to power up your own Delve spells and dumping good old Anger into the yard for alpha strike potential.

[TsumiBand]

That Monk token makes me laugh more than it should.

I could bitch about how the second ability on the Blue enchantment would be a better gift in White, buuuuuuuuuut.

I'm liking the idea of the token rush Prowess.dec being a thing, even though Young Pyromancer is already the hotness and this will just make YP less cool. I mean yeah yeah yeah something something Blue shell for an engine, but really I want to believe that it will prove to be stronger in a burn-heavy list. I want to believe this for the same reason I said that Young Pyromancer gave burn decks a set of options it didn't necessarily have before; when you have to use burn as removal instead of a win-con, you lose out on tempo unless you have a fuckton of cards. Being able to poop doods though, especially Prowess doods that grow with the burn you're throwing around -- I mean with even one Prowess-token-making guy on the board, if you've got two spells to cast in hand, you can block with 3 power just in tokens. If you have 1 more spell, it bumps up to 6 (because Prowess, hurp). Then 10. I mean basically it's the nth triangular number of noncreature spells worth of token power at any given point, right. It's an okay way to ruin a life total, but it also gives you means of stopping opponent creatures without strictly 'chump blocking' and letting you trade (ideally) while also still hitting the face. I like it.

[apple713]

Because UR wasn't good enough...either this deck is going to start dominating or cards like thalia, and ethersworn canonist are going to start becoming main deck cards in more than just D&T

http://static.starcitygames.com/www/images/article/MonasteryMentor.png

I really didn't want to start playing UR but now with the addition of this card UWR seems like the only choice...

[trollking21]

Monastery monk seems like it could be push a very aggressive UWR delver deck. Maybe something like this where you never really run out of gas and young pyro or monetary monk can create a huge board by themselves.

3 monastery monk
4 delver
4 young pyro
4 monetary swift spear
4 cruise
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
2 git probe
4 bolt
2 swords
2 pierce
2 snare
4 force

17 land

[Meekrab]

Monastery monk seems like it could be push a very aggressive UWR delver deck.
I don't know how much better this is than just Stoneforging for Batterskull. 2W is already at the absolute top of UWR Delver's curve and the 1/1 prowess dorks don't gain life.

Sure, against some matchups it probably gains percentage points but I'm sure it loses them back to Golgari Charm decks, etc.

[Poron]

ehrm no.. the mass removal nowaday is just -1/-1 effects, EE and Terminus.

You save all of your tokens with a Brainstorm.. just wow.

I expect more Deeds/EE in next meta

[Philipp2293]

If that's the case UWR decks might just start playing (or SBing) Boros Charm, since the other 2 modes are also pretty good in this shell (4 to the dome while pumping the team? Giving a guy with a few prowess triggers double strike? Sounds both ok to me)

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

So butthurt at Torrent Elemental.

It pretty much shits all over every single big, Red "can't block" creature, be it Two-Headed Anythings, Boldwyr Intimidators, or whatever else. Another case, among many, where Red does something and Blue does it much better.

[death]

ehrm no.. the mass removal nowaday is just -1/-1 effects, EE and Terminus.

You save all of your tokens with a Brainstorm.. just wow.

I expect more Deeds/EE in next meta

and Supreme Verdict from non-Miracles. People would think Deed.dec is fine but it's really slow, 6 mana to wipe out the Monk and his minions? BUG needs a fuckton of removal and help from Snapcaster Mage. Even after clearing the board, it will need to answer every inbound burn spell/creature or lose. Black also has the worse spot removal tools.

Miracles is just better, you have Terminus AND Supreme Verdict. With CB + Top out, a Counterspell or Counterbalance floating on top, you virtually lock out the opponent after clearing the board.

[LOLWut]

So butthurt at Torrent Elemental.

It pretty much shits all over every single big, Red "can't block" creature, be it Two-Headed Anythings, Boldwyr Intimidators, or whatever else. Another case, among many, where Red does something and Blue does it much better.

The bigger scandal about Torrent Elemental is this grammatical bomb: "Activate this ability only anytime you could cast a sorcery." Not "any time" like all the others. When was this switch made and why wasn't I informed. http://magiccards.info/query?q=o%3A%22only+any%22+o%3Atime&v=card&s=cname

[Poron]

Yes, Miracle will get much more common to me as well.

Ethersworn Canonist and Spirit of the Labyrinth as well imho.. with Containment Priest we have a descreet hatebear toolxbox.

Death and Taxes is just getting everywhere as well

[HdH_Cthulhu]

I dont think you want crap up your deck with haste. Yes obv its fine to attack with Monastery Mentor and his monks asap but it doesnt do anything on its own and even helps your opponent (mirror).
Why not just stick to the good old free counters -I mean you get an additional monk and buff, while protecting your board! Its kinda like Tarmogoyf, he rewards you by just playing magic...
Another thing is discard, I mean cabal therapy seems really nice now! It's 1 mana:+2/2 on your team, build a dude, discard maybe a supreme verdict/abrupt decay + discard their best card. And hence you already play 4 gitaxian probe, therapy brings even more value... Whats going on!?

So the hardest part is to reach 4 mana, then you try to resolve him, play a 1 mana discard spell, and sit there with your free counters, desperately wanting to untap with your Monk!

So how to reach 4 mana? Maybe ramp with BoP or hirach or Deathrite Shaman??

Also I like Monastery Mentors ability vs spot removal! Even if you get only 2 dudes out of him, and he gets sworded, you are waaaaay ahead, I mean at some point he has to deal with this 2 tokens...

[Barook]

I dont think you want crap up your deck with haste. Yes obv its fine to attack with Monastery Mentor and his monks asap but it doesnt do anything on its own and even helps your opponent (mirror).
Why not just stick to the good old free counters -I mean you get an additional monk and buff, while protecting your board! Its kinda like Tarmogoyf, he rewards you by just playing magic...
Another thing is discard, I mean cabal therapy seems really nice now! It's 1 mana:+2/2 on your team, build a dude, discard maybe a supreme verdict/abrupt decay + discard their best card. And hence you already play 4 gitaxian probe, therapy brings even more value... Whats going on!?

So the hardest part is to reach 4 mana, then you try to resolve him, play a 1 mana discard spell, and sit there with your free counters, desperately wanting to untap with your Monk!

So how to reach 4 mana? Maybe ramp with BoP or hirach or Deathrite Shaman??

Also I like Monastery Mentors ability vs spot removal! Even if you get only 2 dudes out of him, and he gets sworded, you are waaaaay ahead, I mean at some point he has to deal with this 2 tokens...
Since we're already running G for DRS activations, why not Grove and PF to complete the 5C good stuff?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Since we're already running G for DRS activations, why not Grove and PF to complete the 5C good stuff?

Haha grove//PF combo seems ridiculous^^ Prolly way to overkill, but if something goes wrong, and you topdeck the monk in the lategame you are happy to have these PF activations...

[death]

Punishing Fire + Grove definitely something to look into. How about Iscochron Scepter + Orim's Chant?

Also, you can buyback Chant using Soulforge Grand Master. Profit?


Well, shit.

http://media.wizards.com/2014/ujehvsbfrf153/en_lw5yaa6hq8.png

[apple713]

Punishing Fire + Grove definitely something to look into. How about Iscochron Scepter + Orim's Chant?

Also, you can buyback Chant using Soulforge Grand Master. Profit?

yeah u can but seeing as how it worked so well on an artifact 5-6 mana utilizing a creature screams failure.


URW is going to make the format even more narrow i believe. Decks playing it and decks heavily weighted against it.

[Barook]

How about Iscochron Scepter + Orim's Chant?
That hasn't been good for years now. PF is probably one of the few playable, recurable spells that don't suck in the format. 6 mana Chants for the pseudo-lock is too expensive.

Might be too cute, but Intangible Virtue + Young Pyromancer + Monastery Mentor sounds fancy, especially if you throw in stuff like Lingering Souls.

I'd still stick to some kind of UWR variant with YP and Mentor. One could throw in PF and Grove since you need red mana anyway. Not sure if it's overkill, but between Bolt, StP and PF, I doubt opposing creature decks stand a chance. Throw in blue counters against combo and the blue cantrip cartel for consistency/feeding the token producers and you have a deck.

[Poron]

Lol is Delver becoming a "not so powerfull" card? Format is so filled up with burns and Pyroblasts...

These prowness guys can make the cut

[HdH_Cthulhu]

yeah u can but seeing as how it worked so well on an artifact 5-6 mana utilizing a creature screams failure.


URW is going to make the format even more narrow i believe. Decks playing it and decks heavily weighted against it.

I wouldn't dismiss chant so fast. With the sick clock of Monastery you really want that that extra turn, chant gives you that. And with scepter, you open yourself up to 2 for 1 but with SGM you can buy time AND draw their removal (so Monastery will be safe).
But yeah snapcastermage seems just better than SGM!

Fun thought: 8 bubble Monastery Mentor xD

[Barook]

Thing is that Mentor does make the new Delve Timewalk better. Aren't ~6 delve spells supportable in a blue deck?

[bruizar]

time for more dumb sweepers, a Terminus with the ability of Vengeful Pharaoh

[HdH_Cthulhu]

time for more dumb sweepers, a Terminus with the ability of Vengeful Pharaoh

but you can only count on supreme verdict! Cuz if you cant resolve your sweeper you get prowned to death...

[maharis]

I hate to put myself out there like this considering cantrip.dec is a monster that absorbs even the slightest toy, but I can't see Mentor being that good. It's a Gray Ogre that requires you to have other specific cards ready to gain immediate value or untap with it to get a 1/1. The difference between 2 mana and 3 mana is gigantic. Why is this card better than Geist of St. Traft?

Anyway. Going back to Outpost Siege:


Huh? How is it breakable?

I mean, it's not insane, but SDT, Scroll Rack, Mirri's Guile, Sylvan Library... suddenly you get a mono-R or RG draw engine that's not GY dependent. I wouldn't overlook it. Of course the blue Siege with the similar loot ability is 2U and this came in as 3R because reasons but whatever. I think it's an underrated effect.

[death]

I can't see Mentor being that good. It's a Gray Ogre that requires you to have other specific cards ready to gain immediate value or untap with it to get a 1/1. The difference between 2 mana and 3 mana is gigantic. Why is this card better than Geist of St. Traft?

You don't even need to untap to get value. Ever heard of Phyrexian mana, Force of Will or Daze? Also, 2W casting cost means he can be good in Stax.

[maharis]

You don't even need to untap to get value. Ever heard of Phyrexian mana, Force of Will or Daze? Also, 2W casting cost means he can be good in Stax.

Right, and that's fine when it's turn 2, but why have you done for the first two turns if you have probe/force + blue, 3 lands, and this guy turn 3? What has your opponent done?

I would rather be playing YP&bolt/brainstorm turn 3 than this guy and a free spell because I think the value of my preceding turns/cards in hand is better. That's all.

I do agree that it might be better in a different deck, I just don't see it as much better than currently available options in URW.

[TsumiBand]

So butthurt at Torrent Elemental.

It pretty much shits all over every single big, Red "can't block" creature, be it Two-Headed Anythings, Boldwyr Intimidators, or whatever else. Another case, among many, where Red does something and Blue does it much better.

I know this feel.

Even better -- stupid fucken guy has Flying. Oh good, asshole - just go ahead and fly and also tap everything down, because what good is evasion if it doesn't apply to all my men. Alpha alpha alpha. Oh and durdle the turtle, I get to be recast from exile. I fucking rule btw.

What's with this casting/returning from exile bullshit? I thought WotC had reservations about making exile "just another good zone to keep good cards". When there are a handful of cards that can fetch exiled things, it's cute; Wishes were cute when they could do this. Misthollow Griffin as a one-off concept, that was cute too and has never been degenerate (as far as I know of). I get that certain exceptions can exist to prove the rule, but what is the point of making exile more and more accessible, after all the changes with m10 and reinforcing the notion that "what happens in exile stays in exile"? Exile is Vegas!

That said... I kind of totally love that this makes my crappy Delve in Standard deck a lot better. :/ I don't have to deck myself anymore! I can cast Soulflayer for :b::b:, give him flying and hexproof (because of that mana fixing guy) and then return my flyer to the battlefield when I'm ready to pounce more. Not bad, not bad. Could even play that new 2/2 Rogue guy that can be cast from the graveyard if I control a green or black permanent; that way with all those goofy "choose one card and put the rest in the garbage" spells I can feel more confident about choosing the noncreature cards.


The bigger scandal about Torrent Elemental is this grammatical bomb: "Activate this ability only anytime you could cast a sorcery." Not "any time" like all the others. When was this switch made and why wasn't I informed. http://magiccards.info/query?q=o%3A%22only+any%22+o%3Atime&v=card&s=cname

Furthermore - Why didn't they go with Outlast's much much shorter verbiage? "Outlast only as a sorcery." Five words, as opposed to ten. Means the same thing.

I hate the wording on abilities with timing restrictions; it always eats up card space real estate and it also always comes at the end -- you know, right after the part where n00bs quit reading? I wish they'd figure out how to put the timing closer to the casting cost. Abilities are just spells that creatures can cast - they should read like the spells *players* cast. If they printed a spell with Sorcery at the bottom of the card instead of the middle you'd go "the fuck is this?", right -- I've always thought it should look more like ":3::bg::bg:: - [as a sorcery] Return this card from exile to the battlefield tapped." Or like, just *some* way of indicating that the ability is "sorcery speed" closer to the cost of the ability without making those poor unfortunate new players think that they actually *are* sorceries and then getting sad that they can't Envelop an ability, or whatever. Random sidebar, thanks for coming.

[FoolofaTook]

I hate to put myself out there like this considering cantrip.dec is a monster that absorbs even the slightest toy, but I can't see Mentor being that good. It's a Gray Ogre that requires you to have other specific cards ready to gain immediate value or untap with it to get a 1/1. The difference between 2 mana and 3 mana is gigantic. Why is this card better than Geist of St. Traft?

The blue one that is unblockable and puts the top card of your library into play as a 2/2 with Manifest is more likely to get absorbed into the blue shell. There are lots of cheap creatures that would be good to cheat into play that way with the option to reveal them instantly for their cc. No idea which of them is going to make the cut but Phyrexian Dreadnaught, Death's Shadow, Leonin Arbiter, Qasali Pridemage and Spirit of the Labyrinth are obvious places to start the search. There are probably better more synergistic cards out there also.

[rufus]

...Why is this card better than Geist of St. Traft?

Obviously, it's not categorically better, but there are many situations where he can be better than Geist of St. Traft. For example if you're playing a deck with cards that use bodies like Battle Screech and Cabal Therapy, or if you're facing a dangerous blocker.

[L-Luck]

Right, and that's fine when it's turn 2, but why have you done for the first two turns if you have probe/force + blue, 3 lands, and this guy turn 3? What has your opponent done?

I would rather be playing YP&bolt/brainstorm turn 3 than this guy and a free spell because I think the value of my preceding turns/cards in hand is better. That's all.

I do agree that it might be better in a different deck, I just don't see it as much better than currently available options in URW.

What if my turn 1 was Sensei's Divining Top, my turn 2 Counterbalance and every turn after I get a free trigger because I draw my Top while protecting my token producer?

[Memories of the Time]

Mentor+2 Sensei= Profit?

[thecrav]

Mentor+2 Sensei= Profit?

FWIW, Drew Levin tried a similar thing with Jeskai Ascendancy and said that while it's cool, the number of triggers makes it virtually unplayable online.