Dualcaster Combo

[rufus]

There was some discussion of the Dualcaster+Twinflame combo in the Commander 2014 thread. It's pretty straightforward:

Cast twinflame with no targets, then cast dualcaster. Use the dualcaster trigger to copy twinflame, targeting dualcaster, when the copy resolves, you get another trigger. This allows for the creation of an arbitrary number of hasty dualcasters, which can then attack for the win.

The combo requires two specific cards, and :r::r::r::2: to go off. It's vulnerable to instant speed removal, and anti-attack tech like Moat.

Naively, it seems sensible to target going off on turn 3 with 3 lands and two mana in accelerants (or Seething Song). That means the combo requires seven cards: 3 lands, 2 fast mana cards, and the two combo pieces. By default, a player will see 9-10 cards by turn 3, so that leaves net 3 cards for protection, tutoring or card quality, or flexibility.

My original thought was for the deck to pack cantrips and fetches for card quality, much like a high tide deck might. Something along these lines:


4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Twinflame
4 Dualcaster

4 Seething Song
4 Lotus Petal
2 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Gut Shot
1 Lightning Bolt

4 Volcanic Island
2 Mountain
2 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire


However, I'm left wondering if there's a better shell. For example, something solidarity-derived that goes off at instant speed, something with true tutoring or wishboards effects for more reliability, or something entirely different.

[zulander]

I believe UR Delver provides a great shell. Here's a list I'm going to start testing:

Draw: 12
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Treasure Cruise

Combo: 8
4 Twinflame
4 Dualcaster Mage

Creatures: 8
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer

Protection: 10
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection

Mana: 22
4 Lotus Petal
2 SSG
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
2 Mountain
2 Island

[Jables237]

I think burning wish is a must. Maybe recruiter for dualcaster? Vedalken Æthermage can also wizard cycle for 3 generic.



*Ruh roh. We might need a judge here. Ran it by a level 3 friend of mine and he said it doesn't work. When Dualcaster copies Twinflame, it copies the number of targets as well. So the copy of twinflame will still not target any creatures.

[rufus]

...
*Ruh roh. We might need a judge here. Ran it by a level 3 friend of mine and he said it doesn't work. When Dualcaster copies Twinflame, it copies the number of targets as well. So the copy of twinflame will still not target any creatures.

Yeah.

The thing is, Dualcaster's text is, at minimum, ambiguous:


...You may choose new targets for the copy.

If the intent were to prevent a change in the number of targets, they could have gone with "...You may change the targets..." This template is used in cards like Misdirection or Psychic Battle.

The notion "number of targets" (as a property independent of 'targets') is also not listed in the relevant section of the rules.



706.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object’s
characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode,
targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). ...

and rule 114.6 (and its children) don't give any clarification on the number of targets.

Edit: "how many targets" does come up in 601.2c, but is not described as a 'choice' explicitly:



601.2c ... If the spell has a variable number of targets, the player announces how many targets he or she will choose before he or she
announces those targets. ...

[apple713]

Yeah.

The thing is, Dualcaster's text is, at minimum, ambiguous:

If the intent were to prevent a change in the number of targets, they could have gone with "...You may change the targets..." This template is used in cards like Misdirection or Psychic Battle.

The notion "number of targets" (as a property independent of 'targets') is also not listed in the relevant section of the rules.



and rule 114.6 (and its children) don't give any clarification on the number of targets.

after reading the following its pretty clear this won't work. there is not really room for interpretation here. Abandon thread.

twinflame

You choose how many targets each spell with a strive ability has and what those targets are as you cast it. It’s legal to cast such a spell with no targets, although this is rarely a good idea. You can’t choose the same target more than once for a single strive spell.

fork

For spells that can have a variable number of targets, the controller of the copy must use the same number of targets the original spell did.

[Cire]

I don't think that ends the combo off the bat- just means that we need to play more creatures. Why not mana dorks? They act as mana for the combo and are targets for twinflame.

[Jables237]

Is it still possible, yes. Is it worth playing over anything? Probably not. Now we need to target something with twincast first to go off. 2 cards and 5 mana was possible for a decent combo deck. With that new limitation we might as well play jeskai ascendancy.

[rufus]

Is it still possible, yes. Is it worth playing over anything? Probably not. Now we need to target something with twincast first to go off. 2 cards and 5 mana was possible for a decent combo deck. With that new limitation we might as well play jeskai ascendancy.

There are some fast lines of play off T1 Orcish Lumberjack or Tinder Wall, but it's much harder to pack in protection using RG.

[Cire]

Is it still possible, yes. Is it worth playing over anything? Probably not. Now we need to target something with twincast first to go off. 2 cards and 5 mana was possible for a decent combo deck. With that new limitation we might as well play jeskai ascendancy.

As some one who tried to work hard on legacy Ascendancy - the problem with that deck was that it was 4+ colors. This deck can probably be just as fast and only needs to be RG and can splash something else for protection. The downside is that there is less search/redundancy.

The Dream-Ideal would be:

1 - Land - Elf
2 - Land - Draw - Draw - Protection?
3 - 2 mana land - Combo 1 + Combo 2 + Protectionx3

4 Deathrite shaman
4 Bird of Paradise

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Twinflame
4 Dualcaster Mage

4 Daze
4 Fow
4 Comandeer
4 Misdirection

12 Land
8 2 mana land

I know super ridiculous - but just something to think about?

[L-Luck]

Why not play it in a UR Pyromancer shell?

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Probe
4 Bolt
4 FoW
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Daze

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dualcaster Mage
4 Pyromancer

3 Twinflame

18 Lands

This is probably worse than the stocklist, although Dualcaster Mage on Cruise is a beating. Twinflame on Pyromancer into cantrip + Probe is at least okayish, too. Sadly Twinglame as a card is really bad against Lightning Bolt ..

[Darkenslight]

Here's my list for testing:

Lands:

4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Mountain
4 Forest
1 Swamp

Dudes:

4 Orcish Lumberjack
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dualcaster Mage
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Vexing Shusher

Stuff:

4 Overmaster
4 Twinflame
4 Tormenting Voice
4 Avoid Fate
4 Manamorphose

SB:

4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Bind
4 Hull Breach
3 Young Pyromancer

The big question is the Young Pyros being in the board, and the fact that you're RG. Overmaster and Avoid Fate are your protection spells (one for Twinflame, one for Dualcaster Mage). I was tempted to try for some number of Chrome Mox int he build, but I think you'd sacrifice considerable consistency for speed. This list should be able to win on turn 3 with protection, and turn 2 without reasonably well.

[Cire]

I like Orcish Lumberjack. But I don't like the RG protection suit. I think you can easily try to add blue or black for protection. I think you need to play blue, for the draw for the consistency. But then, for example, in my initial list I have 16 protection spots, but I really don't know what to include outside FOW and Daze. Commandeer seems cool - to steal a TC for example, but seems too cool for school, same with misdirection against stuff like Hymn. . . .

[Jables237]

I like Orcish Lumberjack. But I don't like the RG protection suit. I think you can easily try to add blue or black for protection. I think you need to play blue, for the draw for the consistency. But then, for example, in my initial list I have 16 protection spots, but I really don't know what to include outside FOW and Daze. Commandeer seems cool - to steal a TC for example, but seems too cool for school, same with misdirection against stuff like Hymn. . . .

Pact of Negation?

[aminor]

Hey all :)

New but an old time lurker.
Since fews days i also work onto a RG version of twin/dualcaster combo. Here is the link : http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/showdeck?ref=404727&decklanglocal=eng

8 accel(+4SSG) / 8 dualcaster + 7 twin flame for the combo.(unlike twin, heat shimmer need a target but we plays 22 creatures plus it's very powerfull the turn after a show an tell into rakul, and faster than burning wish)

Draw filter and CA thanks to sylvan x3+ fetch/recruiter for shuffles effects ×10

Protection with 5 REB and 2 cavern. (Recruiter, magus and dual aster are all humans).

Mini denial or fowcatcher with 3 moon effects. 2 magus because of we can tutor them and cheat it in play thanks to cavern, also a supplementary target in case of heat shimmer combo. 2x bolt to handle liliana or random canonist.

Side with xantid dedicated to counters, CotV versus combo and ensnaring bridges against aggro/show.

Strategy is simple, but i love when it's simple : T1 critter, T2-T4 tutor if needed and combo off. The combo itslef is very strengh because hard to disrupt and almost impossible to hate with hatebear effects (ok canonist can handle it)

But i don't know if a red dragon stompy isn't just better with a lot more disruptive effects , even if the downsidebis that we can't dig for the combo with sylvan. For thoughs :
Red Dragon dualcaster :

- CotV x4
- Blood moon x4
- Defense grid x3
- Magus of the moon x2
- Seething song x4
- Dualcaster x4
- Imperial recruiter x4
- Twin flame x4
- heat shimmer x3
- SSG x4
- mox chrome x4
40 spells
- sol lands x8
- mountain x10
- cavern x2
20 lands.

Sorry for my poor english it is not my native langage.

[Darkenslight]

I like Orcish Lumberjack. But I don't like the RG protection suit. I think you can easily try to add blue or black for protection. I think you need to play blue, for the draw for the consistency. But then, for example, in my initial list I have 16 protection spots, but I really don't know what to include outside FOW and Daze. Commandeer seems cool - to steal a TC for example, but seems too cool for school, same with misdirection against stuff like Hymn. . . .

The issue is that you're trying to get to 5 mana (to do it in a single turn) and I don't think it's feasible with just 18 lands; you're not a Delver deck that can play 8 duals and 10 fetches and call it done. You're going bigger than that, and IMO, the fastest way to do that is to push for a turn 2/3 combo with as much consistency as possible. There's a reason I'm playing 12 card-draw effects and 12 fast-mana effects in my build; Overmaster, Voice and Manamorphose for draw, and DRS, Manamorphose and Lumberjack for fast mana.

[Cybey]

I think the combo still works with Cackling Counterpart?
Problem is you already need something in play when you start the combo.

[Cire]

The issue is that you're trying to get to 5 mana (to do it in a single turn) and I don't think it's feasible with just 18 lands; you're not a Delver deck that can play 8 duals and 10 fetches and call it done. You're going bigger than that, and IMO, the fastest way to do that is to push for a turn 2/3 combo with as much consistency as possible. There's a reason I'm playing 12 card-draw effects and 12 fast-mana effects in my build; Overmaster, Voice and Manamorphose for draw, and DRS, Manamorphose and Lumberjack for fast mana.

Manamorph doesn't provide fast mana? But I think it is safe to just do a split between Mana Dork and 2 - mana land. Not only that but going RUG (or what ever the stupid khan name is) gives you much much better draw spells. The game plan is the same as yours - go off turn 2/3 with protection - but you have access to must better protection. Not only that but by running brainstorm and ponder - you can probably get away with 18/19 lands.

The Ideal Game plan is probably

Fetch --> Volcanic Island --> Ponder
Fetch --> Brainstorm --> Force of Will or Misdirection discarding Serum's Visions for protection --> Break Fetch for Taiga - Deathrite shaman.
City of Traitors --> Combo off --> Pact of Negation or Daze for protection.

Or even better

Fetch --> Volcanic Island --> Ocrish lumberjack --> Force of Will or Misdirection discarding Serum's Visions for protection
Fetch --> Taiga --> Tap Taiga for mana then sac to Orcish Lumberjack --> Combo off -> Pact of Negation or Daze for protection.

Yeah those are all miracle hands, but that's what blue can bring to the deck - exactly what blue brings everyone else: more consistency and better protection.

[Zupponn]

Another route to look into might be R/B with Entomb, Shallow Grave, LED, and Infernal Tutor.