Dualcaster Mage + Twinflame

[ryO!]

Dualcaster Mage
Oracle Text: Flash
When Dualcaster Mage enters the battlefield, copy target instant or sorcery spell. You may choose new targets for the copy.

Twinflame
Oracle Text: Strive — Twinflame costs 2R more to cast for each target beyond the first.
Choose any number of target creatures you control. For each of them, put a token that's a copy of that creature onto the battlefield. Those tokens have haste. Exile them at the beginning of the next end step.


If twinflame is casted without any target, then, in response, the mage is casted and as it citp its trigger effect well trigger ... can we change the number of target as well as the target ?
Number of target being 1 and target being the mage itself

thank you

[cdr]

The only thing Dualcaster Mage lets you change is what it tells you - the targets. It doesn't let you change the number of targets. You can cast Twinflame choosing zero targets, but that's not going to help you much with the Mage.

If you had another creature already on the battlefield, that would work to get you kickstarted with one target.

[rufus]

The only thing Dualcaster Mage lets you change is what it tells you - the targets. It doesn't let you change the number of targets. You can cast Twinflame choosing zero targets, but that's not going to help you much with the Mage.

So is there any difference between cards like Dualcaster where the text is actually "choose new targets", and ones that have "change the targets" like misdirection or goblin flectomancer?

[cdr]

So is there any difference between cards like Dualcaster where the text is actually "choose new targets", and ones that have "change the targets" like misdirection or goblin flectomancer?

The effect is the same. I would guess the difference in phrasing is effects that change targets vs effects that create a copy and then change targets of the copy.

[rufus]

The effect is the same. I would guess the difference in phrasing is effects that change targets vs effects that create a copy and then change targets of the copy.

Apparently "choose new targets" is subtly more liberal in what you're allowed to do.

The thing with the phrasing that bothers me is if you apply the "... what it tells you ... " approach to "...choose new targets..." adding targets seems like a perfectly sensible interpretation.

[iamajellydonut]

Apparently "choose new targets" is subtly more liberal in what you're allowed to do.

The thing with the phrasing that bothers me is if you apply the "... what it tells you ... " approach to "...choose new targets..." adding targets seems like a perfectly sensible interpretation.

Except that you can't can't choose new targets if there weren't any to begin with. A choice was made when Twinflame was put onto the stack and you are directly copying that Twinflame. If you copy a Cryptic Command that's set to draw and counter, you don't get to change the copy to tap and bounce. The modes were already selected.

[rufus]

Except that you can't can't choose new targets if there weren't any to begin with. A choice was made when Twinflame was put onto the stack and you are directly copying that Twinflame. ...

I understand that the rules are - de facto - that the number of targets can't be changed by effects that allow players to "choose new targets", but that, as far as I can tell, is from judges, and not apparent in the rules as written. I don't see "number of targets" explicitly listed as a "copiable value" separate from the targets themselves anywhere in the rules. (Most spells do have a fixed number of targets, or a number of targets controlled some modal choice, which does get copied.)

Even if "number of targets" is its own "copiable value", it's ambiguous whether that value can be changed by "choose new targets" effects. (If, for example, "choose new targets", were interpreted as repeating the targeting step of the spell or activation, then it would allow for a change in the number of targets.)



706.2 When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object’s
characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode,
targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). ...

Using "and so on" without a reference in rules is terrible. Reminiscent of the image on Contract from Below.



602.1c ... If the spell has a variable number of targets, the player announces how many targets he or she will choose before he or she
announces those targets ...




114.1. Some spells and abilities require their controller to choose one or more targets for them. The
targets are object(s), player(s), and/or zone(s) the spell or ability will affect. These targets are
declared as part of the process of putting the spell or ability on the stack. The targets can’t be
changed except by another spell or ability that explicitly says it can do so

[iamajellydonut]

You just quoted it.

706.2 When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object’s
characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode,
targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on).

You cast Twinflame with zero or one or two or three targets. When you copy that Twinflame, you copy its targets. You copy its zero or one or two or three targets, and then you're able to change those targets. You're not allowed to say "poof, it doesn't have a target anymore" or spontaneously add them. That decision has already been made.

[PirateKing]

rufus, I believe your complaint isn't with Dualcaster Mage versus Misdirection, it's with the wording of Twinflame.

It seems like you read Twinflame as "Choose any number of target creatures you control. For each of them, put a token that's a copy of that creature onto the battlefield. Those tokens have haste. Exile them at the beginning of the next end step." and you ignore "Strive — Twinflame costs 2R more to cast for each target beyond the first."

When you copy a spell, you're targeting a spell that has already been cast. Thus, you inherit any choices made during the original casting of that spell. For example, if I cast Devil's Play with X=6, and you wish to copy it with Twincast, the spell you target reads "Devil's Play deals 6 damage to target creature or player." You get to choose new targets with Twincast, but you don't get to change X.

Same case with Twinflame. In your hand it reads any number of targets, but the card uses Strive, so if you cast it for :5::r::r::r:, the spell you target with Dualcaster Mage reads "Choose three target creatures you control. For each of them, put a token that's a copy of that creature onto the battlefield. Those tokens have haste. Exile them at the beginning of the next end step."

If under your example you cast it with zero targets, you get a copy that is also zero targets.

[iamajellydonut]

It seems like you read Twinflame as "Choose any number of target creatures you control. For each of them, put a token that's a copy of that creature onto the battlefield. Those tokens have haste. Exile them at the beginning of the next end step." and you ignore "Strive — Twinflame costs 2R more to cast for each target beyond the first."

The problem is actually "target", not Strive. With target, you have choices that are made upon casting. Eliminate "target", and you have choices that are made upon resolution. Granted Strive would have to function differently to accommodate such a change, but it is absolutely the word "target" that matters in this scenario.

[rufus]

...

If under your example you cast it with zero targets, you get a copy that is also zero targets.

You get a copy with zero targets, and then "you may choose new targets for the copy".


...It seems like you read Twinflame as "Choose any number of target creatures you control. For each of them, put a token that's a copy of that creature onto the battlefield. Those tokens have haste. Exile them at the beginning of the next end step." and you ignore "Strive — Twinflame costs 2R more to cast for each target beyond the first."...


I don't understand why the cost change has anything to do with it.

Let's say - for the sake of discussion - that I copy Dwarven Song instead. Do you think I should be able change the number of targets in that case?

[iamajellydonut]

Let's say - for the sake of discussion - that I copy Dwarven Song instead. Do you think I should be able change the number of targets in that case?

No, same rules apply. It was cast targeting X creatures, and the copy will target X creatures.


The problem is actually "target", not Strive. With target, you have choices that are made upon casting. Eliminate "target", and you have choices that are made upon resolution. Granted Strive would have to function differently to accommodate such a change, but it is absolutely the word "target" that matters in this scenario.

[rufus]

You just quoted it.

706.2 When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object’s
characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode,
targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on).
...

Dualcaster and Fork can explicitly modify "targets", so, if "number of targets" is part of "targets", then shouldn't they be able to change it?

[iamajellydonut]

Dualcaster and Fork can explicitly modify "targets", so, if "number of targets" is part of "targets", then shouldn't they be able to change it?

No.

[cdr]

Dualcaster and Fork can explicitly modify "targets", so, if "number of targets" is part of "targets", then shouldn't they be able to change it?

Number of targets and choice of targets are completely separate. They're announced separately.

601.2c. The player announces his or her choice of an appropriate player, object, or zone for each target the spell requires. A spell may require some targets only if an alternative or additional cost (such as a buyback or kicker cost), or a particular mode, was chosen for it; otherwise, the spell is cast as though it did not require those targets. If the spell has a variable number of targets, the player announces how many targets he or she will choose before he or she announces those targets. The same target can't be chosen multiple times for any one instance of the word "target" on the spell. However, if the spell uses the word "target" in multiple places, the same object, player, or zone can be chosen once for each instance of the word "target" (as long as it fits the targeting criteria). If any effects say that an object or player must be chosen as a target, the player chooses targets so that he or she obeys the maximum possible number of such effects without violating any rules or effects that say that an object or player can't be chosen as a target. The chosen players, objects, and/or zones each become a target of that spell. (Any abilities that trigger when those players, objects, and/or zones become the target of a spell trigger at this point; they'll wait to be put on the stack until the spell has finished being cast.)

Copy effects like Dualcaster and Fork are specifically referring to choice of targets.


I understand that the rules are - de facto - that the number of targets can't be changed by effects that allow players to "choose new targets", but that, as far as I can tell, is from judges, and not apparent in the rules as written. I don't see "number of targets" explicitly listed as a "copiable value" separate from the targets themselves anywhere in the rules. (Most spells do have a fixed number of targets, or a number of targets controlled some modal choice, which does get copied.)

"Copiable values" is mainly for permanents. Copies of spells/abilities on the stack also copy all choices made on announcement, one of which as above is number of targets.

706.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object's characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode, targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on).

[PirateKing]

I don't intend to pile anything on, but this is all in Twinflame's Gatherer page

4/26/2014 You choose how many targets each spell with a strive ability has and what those targets are as you cast it. It’s legal to cast such a spell with no targets, although this is rarely a good idea. You can’t choose the same target more than once for a single strive spell.

4/26/2014 If such a spell is copied, and the effect that copies the spell allows a player to choose new targets for the copy, the number of targets can’t be changed. The player may change any number of the targets, including all of them or none of them. If, for one of the targets, the player can’t choose a new legal target, then it remains unchanged (even if the current target is illegal).

[apple713]

simply looking at the gathering page would give you everything you need to know.

twinflame

You choose how many targets each spell with a strive ability has and what those targets are as you cast it. It’s legal to cast such a spell with no targets, although this is rarely a good idea. You can’t choose the same target more than once for a single strive spell.

fork

For spells that can have a variable number of targets, the controller of the copy must use the same number of targets the original spell did.



Thus, if you CHOOSE that spell has a VARIABLE number of targets. Furthermore, if ZERO is chosen, dualcaster lets you choose ZERO new targets.


please tell me how the above is confusing in the slightest.