The Color Pie and "Disruption"

[H]

Although the B&R thread is a cesspool of circular arguments that never get anywhere, there was, what I found to be an interesting sub-current of the idea of color diversity. I don't want to get in whether or not this kind of diversity is a "good thing" or a "bad thing," that isn't the point I am looking to make or discuss. What it did was get me thinking about why we play certain colors (and so, don't play others), or what are we getting from playing those colors or color combinations. I love the "old school" idea of the color pie, as in, the colors have things they do well and things they can do, but very inefficiently, and things they can't do at all. However, within that paradigm, I feel like some kind of disruptive elements should be found (in some manner) across all the colors, flavored by what those colors do well.

In my thinking, is that every deck has some sort of "disruptive" element. Looking across Legacy's tier 1, 1.5 and even tier 2 decks, it is easier to list the decks that don't feature "disruption" than it is to run down the numerous examples of ones that do. In my mind it is clear that every deck in Legacy needs some kind of "disruptive" element and often the more varied types it has, the better. This is a large part of why most decks are 2-3 colors in Legacy (hand-in-hand with access to more powerful effects).

I think I aught to define what I mean by disruption. Disruption, in my book, is stopping, preventing, or denying your opponent a resource that is necessary for the execution of their game plan. Indeed, by my definition, even removal is a disruptive element. There are few permanents you would play that you actively do not want to keep in play, so your opponent removing it is indeed stopping your game plan. Now, there is the issue of significance, which is another reason why single dimension disruption is not often the best. For example, Burn is not often regarded as a "disruptive" deck, but it does heavily focus on denying the opponent both time and life, two important resources. This doesn't mean that that sort of disruption is always effective, as there are many decks that can win quickly and without regard to what their life total is. This is why many Burn decks have a sideboard full of cards to add another element of disruption, be it graveyard removal, counter-magic, etc.

I am being long winded here, but what I am getting at is how there is a very uneven amount of disruption spread across the colors of Magic. Like I said in the beginning, I don't believe that every color should have access to every effect and especially not highly efficient answers. Lets look at the ways in which you can "interact with your opponent" (i.e. disrupt them in some fashion) in each color (mind you, this list is not meant to be exhaustive or complete, just some ideas off the top of my head):

White is the color of removal. It as always had 2 of the historically best creature removal spells (Swords to Plowshares and Wrath of God) along with staples such as Disenchant. White can typically "deal" with any type of permanent, as the cost of not being able to interact with spells on the stack. White is not a very proactive color in terms of it's non-creature spells, instead getting most of the best reactive cards in the form of removal. White has also come to be the color of the "hatebear" and of "prohibition." Numerous small, often 2 or 3 CMC creatures that stop, delay, or deny the opponent the ability to do something have been printed in recent years, along with the moving of effects to White, such as Propaganda to Ghostly Prison and Arcane Laboratory to Rule of Law.

Blue has a very narrow, but very powerful "main" way of disrupting an opponent, counter-magic. Counterspell and it's ilk are probably the best "proactive" solution to the variety of things your opponent might be attempting to do. I use proactive in quotes, because counter-magic is only proactive in the sense that the spell never resolves, not as in it can be played out ahead and left to deal with a problem once it arises (Hesitation is the only proactive counter-magic I could think of off the top of my head and it's pretty bad). Blue's disruption is weak after this layer, since most interaction with permanents is only to return them to opponent's hand or library, but in balance terms this is probably correct for access to such powerful effect such as counter-magic.

Black also gets access to another relatively strong "proactive" effect, in discard. Taking a card from the opponent's hand with something like Thoughtseize is a pretty good way of disrupting an opponent's plan. Black also gets access to a reasonable suite of creature removal at the cost of having no good ways to deal with Artifacts and absolutely no way to deal with Enchantments. I think this is also a pretty fair balance, although I do feel that the way the pie breaks down, there should be a little room for Black to interact with Enchantments (as a counterpoint to Red's lack of interaction).

Red truly lacks a diverse set of disruptive elements, but it does get the added benefit in that it's creature removal can often be directed at the opponent's life total, in order to deny them either time or life as a resource. That is also the same idea behind the Red "punisher" cards, such as Manabarbs or Eidolon of the Great Revel. Red does get some disruption in the form of Artifact removal, while paying for that in having almost no way to interact with Enchantments. Red also does occasionally see a spell to change the target of a spell or ability, but that is often split between Blue and itself. Lastly is Blood Moon, which is probably the best Red disruption spell, which just happens to fit well into the meta game.

Green is no a very disruptive color at all. In fact, it is often difficult to even think of an actually competitively played Green card that is disruptive. I would classify Sylvan Safekeeper as on, since it can deny your opponent the ability to interact with your creatures. City of Solitude is a good example, but it's effect has more often be shifted to White, as in Grand Abolisher. I applaud the arrival of Green flavored creature removal in the form of "Fight" cards. Although they are highly inefficient, it's good that they exist. Even Green's artifact and enchantment removal has largely been shifted to White. Green was supposed to be the color of creatures, but as Zoo's inability to compete exemplifies, disruption is necessary. While Gaddock Teeg is a great card, he is only half Green and so I am excluding this on that basis. I am only focusing on mono-colored effects.

TLDR; While it seems I continue to babble on and on, my point is that Green has by-and-large gotten the shaft on disruption. If you were a designer, what would be some on-color, on-flavor disruptive effects for Green that could meaningfully disrupt your opponent? Is there even room in the color pie for Green disruption? Or, perhaps, am I just an idiot for typing all this?

[Slag]

I think it's safe to say that green still has the bulk of the artifact/enchantment kill cards, and reclaimation sage is a good example of that. The problem is that artifact kill is a lot more narrow than discard, countermagic, or burn. If green were to have some more on-color/flavor disruption (aside from the "destroy things by growing mushrooms on them" or "triggered ability that probably involves a creature token" that is sometimes played with), I wonder if there is not some room to explore disrupting mana production. Green has a lot of cards that deal with producing mana, so perhaps a card that can change the color of mana produced by a player might offer some disruptive potential:

Mirri's chant. {g}
Instant

Until end of turn, all mana added to target player's mana pool is colorless.

Or maybe
Harvest Moon. {2g}
Enchantment

Nonbasic lands produce only green mana

It would probably be a major rules headache, though.

[H]

Ah, yes, when I first went to type that all up, I was thinking of Desert Twister and all it's descendants (like Beast Within), but failed to mention them. Cards like Creeping Mold or Bramblecrush count too. However, they are still very limited and not very efficient at all, especially if your opponent isn't playing Artifacts or Enchantments, but at least Branmblecrush can hit Planeswalkers. Four mana Stone Rain isn't very exciting in the competitive sense.

[JanoschEausH]

Well, there is Root Maze as a disruptive card against mana. I can't remember similiar green cards, tho.

[H]

Mirri's chant. {g}
Instant

Until end of turn, all mana added to target player's mana pool is colorless.

Or maybe
Harvest Moon. {2g}
Enchantment

Nonbasic lands produce only green mana

It would probably be a major rules headache, though.

I don't think the first one would be too good, I guess it's like a Green version of Silence. The second would probably be decent as a Green Blood Moon.


Well, there is Root Maze as a disruptive card against mana. I can't remember similiar green cards, tho.

Root Maze is a great card, but it is largely incomparable with the other disruptive elements you are almost forced to use in a mono-Green deck, since multiple colors with Root Maze is pretty bad. Root Maze with Chalice is bad and Root Maze with Trinisphere is terrible. That is part of why I made this thread, I was curious what people felt could be cards to run with something like Maze.

[FoolofaTook]

I don't think the first one would be too good, I guess it's like a Green version of Silence. The second would probably be decent as a Green Blood Moon.



Root Maze is a great card, but it is largely incomparable with the other disruptive elements you are almost forced to use in a mono-Green deck, since multiple colors with Root Maze is pretty bad. Root Maze with Chalice is bad and Root Maze with Trinisphere is terrible. That is part of why I made this thread, I was curious what people felt could be cards to run with something like Maze.

Green has a bunch of disruption spells that prevent the opponent from countering spells in one way or the other.

Gaea's Herald
Gaea's Revenge
Leyline of Lifeforce
Summoning Trap
Thrun, the Last Troll
Vexing Shusher
Dosan the Falling Leaf

The problem is most of them are creature based and creatures are weak as a disruptive device because every list in Legacy is either too fast to be easily disrupted or has several ways to remove creatures.

What you want is a Gaea's Herald that costs :g: and has hexproof. Maybe a Dosan the Falling Leaf that costs :g::g: and cannot be countered that has hexproof.

Best of all would be a Vexing Shusher at :g::g: that makes all of your green spells uncounterable and has hexproof.

[Zombie]

I'd settle for a Teeg that didn't fuck my own green deck up ;__;

[TsumiBand]

If disruption is simply stopping the execution of the plan, Green gets an amount of hexproof, which has shown itself to preclude interaction to the point of tedium (though arguably guys like Geist of Saint Traft and/or True Name Nemesis are better at this, pound-for-pound). Notably, Vines of Vastwood has maintained its old wording, which is subtly different from hexproof enough that it matters -- you can cast Vines of Vastwood on an opponent's creature in response to their own spell/ability to counter it, because VoV says "can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control". Not that there's much of that going around Legacy these days, but w/e.

While it matters a lot less in Legacy than other formats, abilities which prevent the death of the creature (Undying/Persist/Regeneration) may as well be a one-shot tempo effect for removal that doesn't exile.

You also get effects like Savage Summoning, which are a little obvious and not nearly as reactionary as you might like. But they do pre-empt a counterspell, so there's that.

Xantid Swarm is a thing but I think it's relegated to anti-combo combo tech. If what you really mean is being able to "reach across the table" as it were and stay the opponent's hand, Swarm is about it, in mono-green anyway.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Green has a bunch of disruption spells that prevent the opponent from countering spells in one way or the other.

I don't believe this is what H is talking about though...
Countering your spells is disruption. Discard is disruption. Spell per turn limitations is disruption. Damage per spell is disruption.

Not having your stuff countered isn't really disruption. It just lets you NOT be disrupted. (Hah! Gaea's Herald not being uncounterable is a fail... :laugh:)

So going back to H's TL;DR summation, where does disruption even fit in to Green's game plan?


The teeming forests overflow with green mana, the pulse of nature. Green magic is about growth, life, and brute force. When a green mage fights, massive creatures crash through the undergrowth, animals enlarge to gargantuan size, and wounds close before blood spills onto the ground.

Strength, ferocity, and life: These are the values that sustain the green mage.

So green is about creatures... but we knew that already.
It seems inevitiable that this will become a very specific "Shitty card creation" thread...

Surprise :g:
Instant
Until end of turn, whenever an opponent plays a non-creature spell, you may put a creature from your hand into play.

Ugh, even that is terrible because it is still reliant on you having a disruptive (probably :w: or :w:/:g:) creature in your hand to keep your opponent from winning.

Perhaps another question to ask is: "Is it bad that Green doesn't have disruption?"
Should all colors be able to do all things?

[rufus]

Green does see the occasional off-color card like Stunted Growth,Hornet Sting, unlike out-of-slice blue cards, they tend to be terrible.

[TsumiBand]

Green "should" definitely be the color least likely to reach over and flick a dude on the ear for trying to do stuff.

As far as I can reckon Green is less about disruption and more about just not giving a shit because your stuff is fucking staunch. Like, hey nice Lightning Bolt, just two more and you might actually kill my guy. Or, cool chump blockers - so I assign 1 damage to each of them and trample over for 5, right? What're you at?

The obvious problem being the same as a combo deck that only self-durdles; if you can't actively make the opponent's plan fail, then that means they might be succeeding in spite of you. That's a bad thing.

For my part I wish that jank like Cabal Therapy + Undying Green guys had actually worked out as well as it seems like it would. Maybe it's just that Young Pyromancer is straight better at that trickery (while also getting mileage out of just plain casting spells). But the Therapy + Undying thing, that seems like Green's "contribution" to disruption; I wreck your hand, I don't care because it makes my dude bigger than before instead of just dead, crush your face now.

[H]

I don't believe this is what H is talking about though...
Countering your spells is disruption. Discard is disruption. Spell per turn limitations is disruption. Damage per spell is disruption.

Not having your stuff countered isn't really disruption. It just lets you NOT be disrupted. (Hah! Gaea's Herald not being uncounterable is a fail... :laugh:)

So going back to H's TL;DR summation, where does disruption even fit in to Green's game plan?



So green is about creatures... but we knew that already.
It seems inevitiable that this will become a very specific "Shitty card creation" thread...

Surprise :g:
Instant
Until end of turn, whenever an opponent plays a non-creature spell, you may put a creature from your hand into play.

Ugh, even that is terrible because it is still reliant on you having a disruptive (probably :w: or :w:/:g:) creature in your hand to keep your opponent from winning.

Perhaps another question to ask is: "Is it bad that Green doesn't have disruption?"
Should all colors be able to do all things?

Well, yeah, I wouldn't say that everyone else's responses have been off-topic, but indeed, what I was looking for doesn't have to be "card creation" but instead I was struggling to even think of what Green disruption would look like. I think that fleshing out what Green disruption is right now is fine so we can see what has been done, so we might see where we might go.

By my hastily made and probably overly broad definition, keeping your things from being countered is a pretty narrow and usually bad form of disruption, unless it comes built in, like on Abrupt Decay.

I think your last point is a good one, I'm not sure if it is bad that Green doesn't get much playable disruption. It feels bad to me, but I'm not sure if maybe I am just a bleeding heart here.


Green does see the occasional off-color card like Stunted Growth,Hornet Sting, unlike out-of-slice blue cards, they tend to be terrible.

How good would an aggressively costed Stunted Growth effect be? I want to believe it would be awesome, but I have a feeling it still might not be playable.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Green "should" definitely be the color least likely to reach over and flick a dude on the ear for trying to do stuff.

Isn't Hidden Gibbons the ultimate in green disruption?
You'd better not play an interrupt or I'll get an ape!

That card is just so good. :laugh:

-----

Edit for an actually meaningful comment - How about something like:

I dunno... Whatever :g:
Instant
Counter target spell. It's controller puts an X/X creature into play where X is the spell's CMC.


Yeah it says 'counter', but it also says 'creature'! :rolleyes:

[Fatal]

First of all you should define disruption:
I see it as: "cards which break opponent game plan".

Game plan can be defined as all cards played in sequence to aim goal which is winning the game. You can do it on several ways:
- Win the game - decrease your opponent life to 0 or mill your opponent deck.
- Make your opponent doesn't realize his game plan, while you can - then your winning plan is one second stage.

To analyze disruptions kinds you should categorize game plans.

Let take data from DtB (alphabetical order) and some other popular construction to get diversity:
1. BUG Delver (Team America) - winning via creatures (Shaman, Delver, Tarmogoyfs) while disrupt opponent game plan controling stack, hand and recources enough long to deals enough dmg to win

2. Death & Taxes - similar to Team America game plan - beat down with tempo but control opponent resources and tax casting noncreature spells, supporting creatures with equipments

3. Elves ! - get critical mass of creatures via Glimpse to cast/cheat with NO Craterhoof and win via alpha strike

4. Micracles - Control the game with CB/Top until cast EtA for enough to ride with Angels or Control the game until Jace Ultimate to deck opponent

5. ANT - cast sequence of spells to bump storm count and finding Tendrils of Agony to kill opponent directly

6. Sneak & Show - cast S&T or Sneak Attack to cheat Emrakul or Griselbrand to play, then clean opponent table via anihilator

That's their game plans.

Now take them and wrote disruptions vs each game plan.

1. A lot of crature removal (some of can be countered), stable mana base (few nonbasics, and fetches more basics)
2. Similar to 1. - creature removal but its more focused on cheap CMC, stable mana base or other mana sources, artifact removal
3. Elves - recursive removal, blocking spell sequance like Ethersworn canonist or simple stack control with counters
4. Miracles - Enchantment removal (Counterbalance lock) o high CMC to ignore them, mass token creature removal like EE or direct answer vs Jace.
5. ANT - blocking spell sequance or blocking buisness spell (like Gaddock), controling stack and hand or control their life or gy to close some generators like Ad N or Past in flames.
6. Sneak & Show - Blocking Sneak Attack activation, controling spells on stack, or answering put in to play fatties - like Humility or Karakas

Now we can categorize them on two ways, first one was mention by You - proactive and reactive. Proactive answer their game plans bofore they started to realize them (casting them), second one answer after they casting (or in-time of casting).

1. Stable mana base will be proactive disruption, Suflur Elemental will be also proactive disruption, while removal will be reactive disruption.
2. Similar like upper, Leyline of Sanctity can be proactive disruption vs their disruption, while uncounterable can be reactive disruption which can't be disrupted while you also have proactive Leyline of Sanctity
etc..

that should be shorter post..

all in all best disruption will be disruption which they can't disrupt. But most Tiers construction have answers vs most situation (if not they should consider changing sb). So when we look on other categorize - color pie we can see similar thing which you mention:

Blue - is mostly reactive - and probably one of the best disruption since its - universal, versus most spells (only few can't be countered), can also act as protection since it can also protect your game plan to resolve. On what cost ? Mostly been reactive - this mean you must wait until your opponent starts to realize his game plan, but history shows that best counters are "free on mana" on some conditions - mostly board state or card advantage - (Daze, FoW, Thwart, Foil) if you can effort to stop opponent game plan and realize your until your hand will be "out of gas" you simple win - that's the best definition of tempo strategy (looking on history of magic - best one). Maybe a coincident but also Blue has best CA to refill your hand, and best card selection to not getting out of gas. Now let connect it with actually best aggressive creature which has flying..

Red - it has probably one of the best reactive cheap creature removal, which can also be removal vs plainswalkers and a game plan (burn), it can also punish playing spells - proactive (Eidolon) or many non-basics Price of Progress - reactive. It also have one of the best reactive disruption vs Blue - pyroblast and red elemental blast.. that's probably enough of disruption to so blue centric meta.

White - its focused on proactive answers - like Thalia - its so good bacause it can't be so easily answered (disrupted) with reactive disruption - removal - even 1 CMC removal will cost same as you paid for Thalia (if you Vial it you get tempo advantage), that is probably only proactive answer which is hard to answer - others are suffering or simple been permanents and waiting until opponent find answer for them (if they resolved, and not been discarded), the other side is creature and permanent removal - good reactive answer - that's why its one of the most splashed colors to blue.

Black - Discarded - yes black can attack easily spells before they can be played - its ... proactive - problem is you disrupt some of the routes your opponent would play wasting your resources, while your opponent need to find other way to realize his game plan using available resources - so deck with many redundancy will always win vs discard 1 for 1. They other problem is that you can't discard cards which your opponent just draw (only few cards do that - and mostly non-selective) so any library manipulation (blue) can break your disruption - or simple disrupt it.



Green - More mana sources then lands, redundancy with tutors (GSZ), card advantage via Glimpse that are Green "disruption" spells - so basically it is disruption vs opponent disruption - still proactive - until your opponent find the other way to disrupt them, or answer proactive vs your "disruption".

We we see Color Pie is not a Pie.. its mostly 1-color blue-centric reactive most powerful disruptions, second color - red which can hated that one color, 100% proactive (white) with 1 card which is playable and also disrupt they answer (not always counterspell is enough), and with reactive removal - good for splash to blue same as red, Black - discard as was pointed out isn't good enough, and Green which could be good but it just to easy to disrupt mostly - only big redundancy like elves can be competitive on long range vs "blue" decks.

Conclusion - last sentence was little "too frustrated" but any non-blue deck can disrupt mostly proactive this mean it is not so universal, while blue can answer reactive - reactive answer can be "disrupted" only by reactive answers mostly so the wheel is closed. Redundancy doesn't helps now while blue also is best library manipulation / card quality and best card advantage color. Don't forget that we live in a color world so mixing colors is natural in building decks - printing one mana wrath of god helps a lot for diversity of colors to give any deck with good library manipulation reactive answer to disrupt all of the "non blue" proactive disruptions.

Edit: Sorry for my English - written late and in a rush :)

[H]

Green "should" definitely be the color least likely to reach over and flick a dude on the ear for trying to do stuff.

As far as I can reckon Green is less about disruption and more about just not giving a shit because your stuff is fucking staunch. Like, hey nice Lightning Bolt, just two more and you might actually kill my guy. Or, cool chump blockers - so I assign 1 damage to each of them and trample over for 5, right? What're you at?

The obvious problem being the same as a combo deck that only self-durdles; if you can't actively make the opponent's plan fail, then that means they might be succeeding in spite of you. That's a bad thing.


Well, I'd be OK with that principle of "hey-I'm-Green-and-I'm-just-going-to-smash-your-face" if only Green creatures were actually demonstrably better than other colors so you could actually execute that plan. As it is, your creatures are possibly slightly better and you have slim pickings of disruption to back it up...

[Ace/Homebrew]

To analize disruptions kinds you should categorize game plans.

Your English is 100% better than my Polish! But my mind is like a child's AND I think I'm funny...
'To analize' something is completely different than 'analyzing' it. :wink:

[H]

Well, let's try to keep it at least mildly constructive, :wink:

Why I say it "feels bad" that Green disruption sucks is that you could run a pretty decent mono-color deck for each color, but the Green one would probably be the worst of all of them (mind you, I applaud Lejay's work on his new Green Stompy (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28759-Sylvan-Plug-(or-whatever-splashed-Green-stompy))). Indeed, your sources of disruption aren't even really going to be Green, but Artifacts, which, again, just feels bad to me. Death and Taxes, Pox, Burn and to a lesser extent mono-Blue Control are archetypes that can survive on their own colored cards (OK, OK, I am probably embellishing on MUC, but my point still stands).

[Zombie]

Well, let's try to keep it at least mildly constructive, :wink:

Why I say it "feels bad" that Green disruption sucks is that you could run a pretty decent mono-color deck for each color, but the Green one would probably be the worst of all of them (mind you, I applaud Lejay's work on his new Green Stompy (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28759-Sylvan-Plug-(or-whatever-splashed-Green-stompy))). Indeed, your sources of disruption aren't even really going to be Green, but Artifacts, which, again, just feels bad to me. Death and Taxes, Pox, Burn and to a lesser extent mono-Blue Control are archetypes that can survive on their own colored cards (OK, OK, I am probably embellishing on MUC, but my point still stands).

Uh, I think we have a basically monogreen deck in the DTB atm...

[H]

Uh, I think we have a basically monogreen deck in the DTB atm...

I actually disagree, without Black for Decay and Deathrite, plus discard from the board, I don't think Elves would be a formidable.

[danyul]

But my mind is like a child's AND I think I'm funny...

I'm with you. It's a difficult life we lead.

[ReAnimator]

I think the best piece of Green Disruption in the past while has been Scavenging Ooze and DRS. However they only really disrupt the Graveyard which while very good is not very versatile vs a broad format, still good cards though obviously.

Historically greens best disruptive spells have been mana denial, or resource denial in general, and while it's put up results in other formats and bygone seasons, it's hard to compete with Daze when Plow under is probably the gold standard for these effects. Green usually is paired up with artifact pieces of mana denial, like Winter Orb, Tangle Wire etc. as seen in old Stompy decks Trinity Green (saga era standard decks) or Oshawa Stompy in old vintage.


Stunted Growth
Plow Under
Ritual of Subduel
Root Maze
Bramblecrush
Creeping Mold
Reap and Sow

Have all seen pro level play or put up very good results at one time or another, but none of that really applies to modern day legacy much.

As far as thematic cards that fit the colour pie i always liked the Saga era Hidden enchantments like Hidden Gibbons and Hidden Guerrillas. Obviously those cards have their issues, and are more reactive than disruptive, but i wonder if you made cheap dudes with flash that you got to cast for free if whatever condition is met could work in the same vein, maybe countering the spell when you did, if it's on your turn or something, you could flavour it away as "magic hating monkies" or like a living voidslime or some such.
Green does seem to be getting better at killing creatures with other creatures, i think that could be a disruptive theme that gets more and more push in the future. In recent years we've had a lot of these abilities and they've all seen play in weaker formats.

I think the big question is if any of these areas of disruption are ever going to be powerful enough to break into a format as large as legacy? Probably not if they have to keep standard power levels in line.

[Sloshthedark]

Why you guys always think everything has to have access/answer to everything? thats why the color pie does (not) exist

[H]

I think the best piece of Green Disruption in the past while has been Scavenging Ooze and DRS. However they only really disrupt the Graveyard which while very good is not very versatile vs a broad format, still good cards though obviously.

Historically greens best disruptive spells have been mana denial, or resource denial in general, and while it's put up results in other formats and bygone seasons, it's hard to compete with Daze when Plow under is probably the gold standard for these effects. Green usually is paired up with artifact pieces of mana denial, like Winter Orb, Tangle Wire etc. as seen in old Stompy decks Trinity Green (saga era standard decks) or Oshawa Stompy in old vintage.


Stunted Growth
Plow Under
Ritual of Subduel
Root Maze
Bramblecrush
Creeping Mold
Reap and Sow

Have all seen pro level play or put up very good results at one time or another, but none of that really applies to modern day legacy much.

Great examples, indeed they are of a by-gone era now though. I should have prefaced this with the caveat that this is through the lens of Modern-day Legacy. It is unreasonable to think that if we had disruption then, why can't we have it now? It may well be, I'm not sure.



I think the big question is if any of these areas of disruption are ever going to be powerful enough to break into a format as large as legacy? Probably not if they have to keep standard power levels in line.

One thing abut being strong enough to break in to Legacy, there are the Commander pre-cons and other ways to get cards in to Legacy (and Vintage, but that is a wholly different can of worms) without ruining Standard or Modern.


Why you guys always think everything has to have access/answer to everything? thats why the color pie does (not) exist

I'm not proposing that Green should get "answers to everything," I don't want a :g::g: Counterspell. What I'm asking is can Green have playable disruption? If you feel the answer is no, that's acceptable. I disagree is all. :cool:

[Jander78]

I'm not proposing that Green should get "answers to everything," I don't want a :g::g: Counterspell. What I'm asking is can Green have playable disruption? If you feel the answer is no, that's acceptable. I disagree is all. :cool:
Green has had a few that have been playable over the years, but they are usually very narrow in what they affect and generally were relegated to the sideboard. I don't see that changing in the near future. Maybe a City of Solitude with legs could be a good place to start, since Wizards likes to do that. :)

I.e.
Choke
Guttural Response
Lifeforce
Perish

[TsumiBand]

Maybe a City of Solitude with legs could be a good place to start

So Dosan the Falling Leaf then? Or is that ability thing a showstopper.

I wonder how much play it would see; Grand Abolisher is similar and hasn't been making waves (last I checked).

[Phoenix Ignition]

I think the main "disruption" of green is just trumping the opponent's creatures with bigger ones, since you can't swing a 2/2 into a 4/4 and win the game.

The obvious problem with that is they keep printing better creatures in other colors, but at least in limited or most cubes, green's strength is still just being really damn strong.

Even pump spells can serve to disrupt your opponent's plan of attacking you with creatures if that is their plan (which is one of the only choices green has, and also part of your argument) by killing any creature that's within around 3 toughness to your creatures power. Lightning bolt can kill something that is */3 or less AND go to the face, but Vines of Vastwood can be used to kill something that's within */x+4 of your creature's power AND go to the face. It's not a distinct difference from lightning bolt to a creature, but it can save yours while killing theirs.

Tarmogoyf is really the only green creature worth playing for it's size alone (Hexproof/shroud make others good too), and that's sad considering all the fatties in other colors recently, but terravore, werebear and friends had a day in the sun a long time ago.

I really like green's new card of "target permanent is now a forest" for 3. It's flavorful and disruptive. Nothing will ever be as powerful as counterspells until enough cards are uncounterable, which I hope never happens because that's unfun for other reasons.

[apple713]

TLDR; While it seems I continue to babble on and on, my point is that Green has by-and-large gotten the shaft on disruption. If you were a designer, what would be some on-color, on-flavor disruptive effects for Green that could meaningfully disrupt your opponent? Is there even room in the color pie for Green disruption? Or, perhaps, am I just an idiot for typing all this?


probably not worth the time because i didn't read it all. Green has options but OBVIOUSLY it does not get the best. However, when combined with black it does

reclamation sage
krosan grip
Song of the Dryads
Beast Within
drop of honey

with black

abrupt decay
maelstrom pulse
pernicious deed

[Jander78]

So Dosan the Falling Leaf then?
Yes, but at a reduced cost to actually make it playable. A casting cost of 2 is really the sweet spot for disruption.

EDIT: Come to think of it, Xantid Swarm fills this spot nicely too as you've already said earlier!

[Zombie]

Yes, but at a reduced cost to actually make it playable. A casting cost of 2 is really the sweet spot for disruption.

EDIT: Come to think of it, Xantid Swarm fills this spot nicely too as you've already said earlier!

Why is it that all green disruptive creatures seem to be unplayable in Elves, a deck that wants its cards to be green creatures ;__;

[Gheizen64]

Green disruption? Nature magic? Well, you could get a colorshifted Back to basics and it'd make perfect sense, just call it like Back to Nature or something. Or some variations on existing cards like:

Choking Vines G
Enchantment
Non basic lands and artifacts enter the battlefield tapped.

or even:

Rust G
Enchantment
Activated abilities of artifacts can't be played.

I don't think green should get the ability to interact with spell directly. Green is all about the nature, the terrene, druids and all that jazz. They don't mind control, they don't fight mind fights, they keep order and protect nature. Green disruption as such should interact more with mana-bases, artifacts and lands, especially non-basic ones, and possibly even mana itself but not spells. Fight is the greenest form of removal because it's all about your bigger creatures, even if i don't think creatures are green biggest problem.
Red and blue mages are more "fighting" casters, with blue being more subtle, and red being more about brute force and the now. Both of those should get disruption based on the stack, with red having the more conditional but more damaging version, and blue having the non-conditional but less damaging version.
Black has already discard that represent mind twisting magic, i don't think it need stack control either, black mages don't strike me as being spell slingers, more manipulating, mind twisting, army-of-zombies, blight (creature kill, both target and mass) casting mages. Land distruction, of the indiscriminate and/or slow kind (think braids/smokestacks with a blight/contamination flavor), should be represented more often in black, while red should get more the targeted one-of-a-time kind. Same for Chains effects. Black have already all the disruption he need tbh, but could have more of its uncommon effect.
White should be all about protecting (hexproof/protection spells) and taxing/slowing/imposing rules (rule of law effects, thalia effects, etc...). I don't feel like white should be good at fighting stack effects unless they're somethign that kill/destroy. Something like:

Divine Intervention W
Instant
Counter target spell that has you or a creature that you control as a target. Draw a card.

Red stack manipulation which they don't actually have (but should) should be based on an already red but clearly colorshifted card :Spell Blast:

Spell Burn XR
Instant
Counter target instant or sorcery that cost X or less, and deal X damage to that spell's controller.

or a legacy-playable:

Feedback Sparks R
Instant
Counter target instant or sorcery spell that cost 1. Deal 1 damage to that spell's controller.

Basically you overpower magic with brute magic power and make it explode, dealing damage to the controller. This feel much more red than mana sink for example, that's a taxing effect. I mean, just read spell blast flavor text ("the brutish mage version of thinking", "the magic version of brute force" etc... it's all about an act of overpowering magic, which feel red most, not blue who feel more subtle). The inability to hit permanents is to keep Enchantments as red weakness, because enchantments feel like something a brute-force pyromage would have more difficulty with.
Red having flashbacks effects don't feel as red as a spell blast ability tbh. Spell reanimating/flashback feel more like blue or black, or green (regrowth effects), but whatever.
But Red absolutely need more instant/sorcery prowess as they should be the 2nd best color for spells but feel more like the 3rd or 4th. So basically:

Blue disruption : countermagic/bounce, work on everything but isn't definitive against permanents and can't direct damage
Black disruption : discard, cheaper than countermagic but more proactive. Creature removal and smokestack effects for other permanents.
Red disruption : punishing cards and spell blast effects for instant/sorceries, plus burn for creatures that can hit players/walkers too.
Green disruption : anti non-basics lands, slow down mana development, bigger creatures/fight as creature removal and naturalize for everything else.
White disrution : protection of own creatures, creatures usually better in combat, silences effects, taxing and rules permanents (Thalia/SoL/Canonist)

With this, every color would have options against certain kinds of decks. Green could use the Root Maze variant for slowing down combo considerably (led/petals etb tapped), plus land destruction and big creature clocks to kill them faster than they do, coupled with various naturalize to remove the artifacts before they untap. White would have tax effects coupled with mana denial as it already does, and efficient weenies. Blue has counters, good creatures, and library manipulation to find you to right card always. Black has discard to stop crucial spells, mass removal vs creature decks, and good stats-creatures with drawbacks against control decks. Red would have cheap fast creatures, burn spells, punishing effects and possibly spell blasts effects to both negate big spells and finish the game as reach.

[rufus]

...
How good would an aggressively costed Stunted Growth effect be? I want to believe it would be awesome, but I have a feeling it still might not be playable.

It's a 3-for-1. If it was something that could be cast on turn 2 or 3 without a whole lot of effort, it would see legacy play.

[H]

It's a 3-for-1. If it was something that could be cast on turn 2 or 3 without a whole lot of effort, it would see legacy play.

What if it cost :g::g::g:? Still playable? I fell like that might actually be good while still being prohibitively costed.

OK, maybe it's actually horribly broken still, I don't know.

[rufus]

What if it cost :g::g::g:? Still playable? I fell like that might actually be good while still being prohibitively costed.

OK, maybe it's actually horribly broken still, I don't know.

I'm not sure about power level, but it would be spectacularly unfun to lose half your hand on turn 2.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Why you guys always think everything has to have access/answer to everything? thats why the color pie does (not) exist
Because one color has everything. That's why people ask "why is it that the other colors also cannot be cool?".

Lets say they'd love to play with creatures they like, but they cannot, because then they'd lose game after game to some bogeyman deck, as non-blue, non-black colors lack lots of important aspects.
If the game have been designed with one main color and four splashes, I wouldn't say a word, but MtG wasn't meant to be this way, so it's obviously bad no matter if the community does swallow that or not.

Imho, speaking of color balance, there are at least two really really bad design features:
- lack of CQ/CA tools in non-blue which limits the respective colors' usefulness in a game where CQ/Ca matters that much.
- green's inability to answer creatures effectively (or, until recently, to answer them at all), which is kinda stupid in a color revolving around nature/creatures/combat/sotf (not the actual card), especially considering a game where creature combat matters as one of the central mechanic.
This results in sloppy gameplay, shitty fluff, repetetive design, blue's chokehold on Eternal, Delver mirrors, etc. etc., etc., all those things we love.



Well, I'd be OK with that principle of "hey-I'm-Green-and-I'm-just-going-to-smash-your-face" if only Green creatures were actually demonstrably better than other colors so you could actually execute that plan. As it is, your creatures are possibly slightly better and you have slim pickings of disruption to back it up...
This.


ot: Although Old School is mostly limited to creature decks contest, and is nowhere near to diversity of Eternal, color-wise it's much more balanced (and maybe even enjoyable).
Also, Academy/Storm/Dredge/Miracles/w-e aside, it's interesting how the game is strategically plain, considering twenty+ years of design and history; it's about red zone most of the time, unless some crappy new design feature *coughPWcough* shows up... with the best of them being blue, obv.

leaving thread in 5, 4, 3, 2...

[Bongo]

An older article that might be of relevance for this topic: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/9405_The_Color_Wheel_Black.html

Personally, I think there are a lot of nuances even within a single disruption category. Like the article above suggests, the various forms of card-drawing should be split up among the colors.
In a similar vein, I think that the white "hatebears" category should be split up. Green is the keeper of the natural order, so it makes sense that it has creatures which ensure that order. For example, I think that Thalia makes more sense in green:

Thalia, Guardian of Gaea
1G
Noncreature spells cost 1 more to cast.
Trample
2/1

Like many others, True Name Nemesis fits a lot better in white and Snapcaster in Red.
I also think that Containment Priest would have been better in Green, since it is the color that is best at casting creatures (and that is the natural way to do so). Flash also feels more Green than White, because the latter is more of a reactive color and not really known for its quickness.

Not sure if it has been mentioned already, but Show and Tell should have been a Green card ("I have the bigger one"). There is even a precedent in Eureka.

[Zombie]

An older article that might be of relevance for this topic: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/9405_The_Color_Wheel_Black.html

Personally, I think there are a lot of nuances even within a single disruption category. Like the article above suggests, the various forms of card-drawing should be split up among the colors.
In a similar vein, I think that the white "hatebears" category should be split up. Green is the keeper of the natural order, so it makes sense that it has creatures which ensure that order. For example, I think that Thalia makes more sense in green:

Thalia, Guardian of Gaea
1G
Noncreature spells cost 1 more to cast.
Trample
2/1

Like many others, True Name Nemesis fits a lot better in white and Snapcaster in Red.
I also think that Containment Priest would have been better in Green, since it is the color that is best at casting creatures (and that is the natural way to do so). Flash also feels more Green than White, because the latter is more of a reactive color and not really known for its quickness.

Not sure if it has been mentioned already, but Show and Tell should have been a Green card ("I have the bigger one"). There is even a precedent in Eureka.

This post. I like it. A lot.
Why is this man not on WotC R&D? Oh, right.

[Barook]

An older article that might be of relevance for this topic: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/9405_The_Color_Wheel_Black.html

Personally, I think there are a lot of nuances even within a single disruption category. Like the article above suggests, the various forms of card-drawing should be split up among the colors.
In a similar vein, I think that the white "hatebears" category should be split up. Green is the keeper of the natural order, so it makes sense that it has creatures which ensure that order. For example, I think that Thalia makes more sense in green:

Thalia, Guardian of Gaea
1G
Noncreature spells cost 1 more to cast.
Trample
2/1

Like many others, True Name Nemesis fits a lot better in white and Snapcaster in Red.
I also think that Containment Priest would have been better in Green, since it is the color that is best at casting creatures (and that is the natural way to do so). Flash also feels more Green than White, because the latter is more of a reactive color and not really known for its quickness.

Not sure if it has been mentioned already, but Show and Tell should have been a Green card ("I have the bigger one"). There is even a precedent in Eureka.
Trample on a 2/1 is pretty meh. Give it deathtouch and we have a deal.

Containment Priest is very white. While Flash is equally shared between green and white (with White having a few more flash creatures), but the denial aspect and exiling is pretty white.

I agree that the hatebears should be spread more to other colors to do in-color things.


This post. I like it. A lot.
Why is this man not on WotC R&D? Oh, right.
Not everybody likes to be paid below industry standard to suck Maro's cock.

If you don't fit into Maro's little cult, you're pretty much done for. That's why he's surrounded by yes-sayers and why the design has been getting stale lately since everybody is following Maro's vision of "fun". Not necessarily a bad one for the growth of the game, although it can certainly hurt it, like Theros block showed.

[H]

Well, as I was thinking of meaningful ways Green could get a hatebear, I too lamented that "Sphere effect" creatures were given to White and not Green. In large part, this is the crux of my argument, why do all the other colors get something and Green gets nothing?

In an attempt to make another horridly broken thing to suit my own desire what about a "reverse" Deathrite Shaman:

:wg:
Liferite Shaman
Noncreature spells cost 1 more to cast.
:g:, Exile a Creature card from your hand, TAP: Gain 3 life.
:w:, Exile a noncreature card from your hand, TAP: Tap target creature.
1/2

This card is both amazingly good and bad, so maybe it's OK?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

To be honest, this is the sole reason I despise green as a standalone color. Its core strategy is its only strategy, and its rare that this strategy is actually balanced.

As far as disruption goes however, we need better antidisruption effects in Green as far as counterspells, discard, and removal are concerned. Something like a less broken something below:

~ - 1GG
Creature - Plant
Reach
If ~ or another creature card would be put into your graveyard from anywhere, return it to your hand instead.
2/4

[Sloshthedark]

I'm not proposing that Green should get "answers to everything," I don't want a :g::g: Counterspell. What I'm asking is can Green have playable disruption? If you feel the answer is no, that's acceptable. I disagree is all. :cool:

I'd gladly give it to you CS would not be powerfull at all, it would be hardly playable (see lifeforce/death grip) :) just stupid design in terms of colors... why does not everyone play SDT for cardselection then? there is the universal tool, but it's not just good for everyone - and there you see the problem I feel like people just want ad hoc non-systematical solutions for their actual feelings of the format/card magic life whatever... and btw obviously G should not have disruption and card manipulation if so, really bad (Natural Selection) or bound to creatures and lands period.

it's all over again in any more or less normal thread that turn into "I hate U" ... and there it starts - I want: Gy inteaction, Sphere fx, stack interaction for every color and make it 1CC and make it fast (oh, I forgot, gotta be instant, snap, creature's better, so flash and no way you can splash it in U, tnxbb)

the other way just print all cards in all colors so people feel great about playing their favourite color tempocombocontrol


Because one color has everything. That's why people ask "why is it that the other colors also cannot be cool?".
you'll always feel cooler just because the essence of U is "more playing/manipulating = more game for you" ... you can just remove U and have your fair game of topdecks but there are other formats for that...

Lets say they'd love to play with creatures they like, but they cannot, because then they'd lose game after game to some bogeyman deck, as non-blue, non-black colors lack lots of important aspects.
and I feel that's completely fine G and R should lose to Combo hard but should be able to beat control... i agree that the aggro/combo/control is disbalanced thou w Delver and Terminus

If the game have been designed with one main color and four splashes, I wouldn't say a word, but MtG wasn't meant to be this way, so it's obviously bad no matter if the community does swallow that or not.
I'd say Legacy is more 4 colors and recommended splash

Imho, speaking of color balance, there are at least two really really bad design features:
- lack of CQ/CA tools in non-blue which limits the respective colors' usefulness in a game where CQ/Ca matters that much.
- green's inability to answer creatures effectively (or, until recently, to answer them at all), which is kinda stupid in a color revolving around nature/creatures/combat/sotf (not the actual card), especially considering a game where creature combat matters as one of the central mechanic.
This results in sloppy gameplay, shitty fluff, repetetive design, blue's chokehold on Eternal, Delver mirrors, etc. etc., etc., all those things we love.

This.

While I can agree that R&D is totaly incompetent regarding eternal and new cards design in general and just recycle the same ideas in random more/less powerfull fashion and card like Delver destablize color pie in terms of roles and speed.... But to equlize the format with other "broken" cards for other colors means narrowing card pool and creating the format more random and retarded, whenever you try to nerf something with a hate card you nerf U less because they find these hate cards better or create something brutal that invalidates existing strategies and narrows cardpool even more... the only way is to stop stupid OP prints and manage colors better as a whole... CA/CQ in non blue should be worse and more bound to permanents, creatures and combal /lifetotal, not spells obv.


ot: Although Old School is mostly limited to creature decks contest, and is nowhere near to diversity of Eternal, color-wise it's much more balanced (and maybe even enjoyable).
Also, Academy/Storm/Dredge/Miracles/w-e aside, it's interesting how the game is strategically plain, considering twenty+ years of design and history; it's about red zone most of the time, unless some crappy new design feature *coughPWcough* shows up... with the best of them being blue, obv.

Depends what you mean by oldschool, the ability to hold together design, purpouse and integrity back in the day was totally different because of design/sells orientation, time, people and no. of cards already released

leaving thread in 5, 4, 3, 2...

dunno why I care to answer, I won't visit for next month, every Desing/B+R discussion just enrages me...

[Gheizen64]

An older article that might be of relevance for this topic: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/9405_The_Color_Wheel_Black.html

Personally, I think there are a lot of nuances even within a single disruption category. Like the article above suggests, the various forms of card-drawing should be split up among the colors.
In a similar vein, I think that the white "hatebears" category should be split up. Green is the keeper of the natural order, so it makes sense that it has creatures which ensure that order. For example, I think that Thalia makes more sense in green:

Thalia, Guardian of Gaea
1G
Noncreature spells cost 1 more to cast.
Trample
2/1

Like many others, True Name Nemesis fits a lot better in white and Snapcaster in Red.
I also think that Containment Priest would have been better in Green, since it is the color that is best at casting creatures (and that is the natural way to do so). Flash also feels more Green than White, because the latter is more of a reactive color and not really known for its quickness.

Not sure if it has been mentioned already, but Show and Tell should have been a Green card ("I have the bigger one"). There is even a precedent in Eureka.

I agree on the SnT part, but taxing feel very much white, and not at all green. Green interacting with the stack? It feel just wrong tbh. Root maze/mana denial effects feel more green and are perfectly fine. Even a colorshifted Bloodmoon would fine perfectly green (plants that grow on everything and turn everything into forests).

[TsumiBand]

Well I think it's fair to say that the expectation of "how does {color} answer {game_thing}" is somewhat skewed by Blue though, right -- it isn't a secret that Old Blue Cards are the most potent in the game, and as a result anything that comes down the pike which is of a certain power level in any other color, is that much more potent in Blue. It's like the other colors are regular old families, and Blue is the Corleones. So any card with half as much potential as its equivalent in another color gets all the inherent benefits of just being Blue, and then you look at the other colors and wonder why they don't seem to have as much reach.

Having said that though, I don't think it does Eternal any good to disseminate every viable strategy amongst the top 3 colors that could play it. That just muddles the palette and creates the same problem on a lesser scale; if Red Deck Wins is the shit (not saying it is, but it's hyperbole time) and then we imagine that A Good Hatebear is printed, and over the years it ends up reprinted in :r:, :g:, and :b:. Well that's not a new tool for 3 colors, it's a new tool for RDW. We see this all the time, this is nothing new - good decks get good cards because they are established tech. Why else is Thresh a far cry from its older self -- the fuck happened to the Red splash? Anyone remember Fledgling Dragon? Remember when that was a card we used to think was worth a damn? The hell did that guy go?

Anyway, to sit and wonder how or why Green would be able to cop the same routine as Blue in regard to getting tools to deal with All The Things -- look, that's not realistic. R&D used to be of the mindset that enough mana in a given color meant access to just about any effect -- that worked out real well for Black, too well, and even sloppy crap like Desert Twister is regarded as a mistake because it establishes precedence for Green to destroy anything it wants. So I think that fundamentally, wondering "where is Green disruption" or "how can Green play disruption" is an XY problem; instead of talking about the actual problem, one spends time and effort wondering about fixing the attempted solution. Key word being "attempted"; the attempted solution might be fundamentally incorrect or just a patch that doesn't directly address the real problem.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

it's all over again in any more or less normal thread that turn into "I hate U" ... and there it starts - I want: Gy inteaction, Sphere fx, stack interaction for every color and make it 1CC and make it fast (oh, I forgot, gotta be instant, snap, creature's better, so flash and no way you can splash it in U, tnxbb)

the other way just print all cards in all colors so people feel great about playing their favourite color tempocombocontrol

This simply isn't true and not everyone wants it like this. I'm not sure why you always bring this kind of reasoning, while nobody is asking for green Ancestrals and Demonic Tutors.
The game is heavily leaned towards blue domination, which is bad (and I'll say it again and again and again) for simple reasons like marketing, staples' price, gameplay, variance, etc. I would oppose this trend/status even if it would have been a matter of different color; shit, it really irks me that I must write this. It's not about hating blue, I'd wholeheartedly hate w/e else color would fuck up the game like this. Now the non-blue colors are just splashes and as such, the game would be better of with none colors at all.

You seem to argue against "let them all have everything" reasoning, but that's exactly what blue does. And it results in shitty gameplay, stupid fluff, annoying, boring, repetitive design/gaming experience. But if you feel that BrainstormDelverDazePonderTNNForce should be the zenith of what's going on in MtG, so be it, I consider it nadir and playing the game is more about the cardboard being soaked in opiates than anything else.

Disruption and CQ/CA are important elements of (interactive) games of Magic and if some colors lack these abilities, than those colors are subpar and thus unnecessary (at least for competitive play). So while you try to argue for a greater diversity of game (let those and those have that and that), in fact it's quite the opposite as nowadays standards in card design push some of the colours/strategies out of the game.

The only thing I'd listen to is the voice of casual players, who love their vanilla for :4::g::g: and would be pissed if the game would introduce more and more high-end, top-tier, competitive lock/CQ/hate pieces.

If the non-blue colours specialization is that they don't do anything, then they simply don't need to exist. And this is not about red/green dying to combo, as you seem to imply, it's about their existance in any other format than limited.

Even back in the stone age, r/g was able to interact with combo/control via say LD. Now when this tactic is deemed useless (as the cheapest usable LD starts at 4cmc), and the combo wins on one land (and control shits WoG for :w:), it's dead.
Green was able to use the "time control" aspect, but now when cards like WOrb are unplayable in Eternal and banned for Temporal, and the creatures mostly suck, there's no way how creatures might defeat anything (don't bring Elves) as they lose before anything happens; moreover it's pretty shitty gameplay once again, as they bring hardly anything thrilling. (Remember SotF? Sadly that card must have been banned, becasue it would ruin blue's dominance over fun in game.) But yeah, that's surely about me and my irrational hate for combo...

So, to sum it up:
Wanna play strong decks? Choose blue!
Wanna play fun decks? Choose blue!
Wanna play interactive decks? Play blue!
Wanna play reliable and consistent decks? Play blue!

Such many diverse. So much colours. Wow!


Fuck, I hate this game like nothing else in world.

[rufus]

I'd gladly give it to you CS would not be powerfull at all, it would be hardly playable (see lifeforce/death grip) ...

It's not coming, but I think a Lifeforce clone that hits blue instead of black would - at minimum - see testing as a sideboard card. There's a reason that people play Red Elemental Blast but not Blue Elemental Blast.

[dog_koko]

Wanna play strong decks? Choose blue!
Wanna play fun decks? Choose blue!
Wanna play interactive decks? Play blue!
Wanna play reliable and consistent decks? Play blue!

Wanna play strong decks? Create one!
Wanna play fun decks? The one that is funny for you!
Wanna play interactive decks? Play whatever you want!
Wanna play reliable and consistent decks? Test it until it becomes consistent!

I love playing (my decks):
- Combo: Trix, Food Chain
- Control: Parfait, Landstill
- Aggro: Infect, U/R

[thefreakaccident]

Bed Decks Player is right. Anyone who doesn't see it is retarded. If blue control decks feel compelled to run pyroblast simply because of the prevalence of blue in high-level environments, there is something wrong. Beb/Reb wars becoming standard in legacy mainboards? That's just silly, and this alone proves what he has to say. Not to say B/G and death&taxes are bad.

[MaximumC]

Fuck, I hate this game like nothing else in world.


Bed Decks Player is right. Anyone who doesn't see it is retarded.

What a bunch of hyperbole. Do you guys want some mayonnaise with all that baloney? Let's think a little more rationally about the problem.

Blue has been the core of Vintage and Legacy since day one because Blue got card draw and countermagic, while other colors got less universally good ways of interacting. That's been a known quantity since the dawn of time. Where you guys are going off the reservation is in the claim that other colors lack disruption. Wizards actively prints amazing disruption for other colors. Since Lorwyn decided that creatures can be good now, they've been coming in droves, from Gaddock Teeg all the way up to Containment Priest.

If you want to speak rationally about the problem, then focus on what each color is able to do and why some tend to have better answers than others.

Blue, as we said, has the universal answer in countermagic. It also has the best cheap card draw and cheat effects South of Oath of Druids, meaning it tends to show up even in decks playing other colors.
White gets a hate for basically everything a deck can try to do to play "unfairly."
Black gets very powerful cheap discard spells, and some yard hate.
Green gets yard hate, kills enchantments and artifacts.
Red gets nothing except what it had as of Ice Age. And some burn.

If you think it's a problem that Blue is still top dog, then you'll be happy to know that Wizards is hard at work on solving the problem. Consider:

Spirit of the Labyrinth
Cavern of Souls
Supreme Verdict
Mistcutter Hydra
Notion Thief
etc etc

And that's not even counting all the old school hate like Red Elemental Blast, Choke whatever. You can safely expect more printings like this that exploit a blue metagame. Just calm down and design a deck to exploit Blue's dominance if you dislike it so strongly.

[Fatal]

I did - It was called Maverick then WotC print WoG for W, and E.Witness but with Flash and 1 mana cheaper and 3 Mana mini progenitus to stall ground all around.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Spirit of the Labyrinth
Cavern of Souls
Supreme Verdict
Mistcutter Hydra
Notion Thief
Don't forget Great Sable Stag! :tongue:

It is encouraging that WotC is trying to print blue hate. But they have to be careful because forcing blue out would probably turn many players away from the game.

The problem as I see it is that there really isn't a downside to splashing blue. If green had a color shifted Blood Moon, or any color had access to more non-basic land hate (that is Legacy playable), there would be less incentive to run 3/4 color decks without basics.

I do not see :u: decks as a problem. OmniTell, Sneak and Show, Merfolk, Miracles, U/R Delver are all doing pretty different things and the value of certain U staples are debated based on the strategy (a :u: deck that doesn't play Brainstorm? Wtf Merfolk???). The issue is the Delver/Brainstorm/Ponder/FoW/Daze shell that gets splashed into every deck greedy enough to forego a basic land.

Wizards can print all the Notion Thieves, Spirit of the Labyrinths, and Great Sable Stags they want. Drawing cards > Stopping someone from drawing cards. If they want to decrease the dominance of the :u: splash shell, they have to make splashing have a bigger downside.

[H]

This thread really wasn't supposed to be about how Blue unfairly gets effects and other colors don't. We can't make Snapcaster Red or Show and Tell Green, so what's the point of arguing about it?

The idea was to have a constructive discussion on whether or not there is room in the color pie for (possibly Legacy playable) new kind of Green disruption.

Discussing Blue's dominance is absolutely a waste of time and energy, because no matter what you feel or think, or even prove, Wizards isn't listening.

[Ace/Homebrew]

This thread really wasn't supposed to be about how Blue unfairly gets effects and other colors don't. We can't make Snapcaster Red or Show and Tell Green, so what's the point of arguing about it?

It wasn't supposed to be, that that's what happened...
It's only a couple posts away from becoming a 'Ban Brainstorm' thread. Do we have any of those? :rolleyes:

[mlschuma]

As to the blue bitch-fest:

Yeah the eternal game is unbalanced in favor of blue. Why? Because Wizards doesn't really care about Legacy or Vintage and historically, the game balance mistakes have all been made in blue's favor. They design blue cards for standard with little care to the eternal ramifications. And off-point, SotF wasn't banned because it "weakened" blue, but was the backbone of excruciatingly dominant combo that was difficult to interact with (at the time). It could probably come back, but once something goes on the Legacy banned list, it's pretty much relegated to purgatory for all time, regardless of how harmless/irrelevant it would be to the format.

On-topic:

Green and Red's traditional form of disruption has always been LD. But, since Wizards has decided that it isn't fun or healthy for the game, we can't have nice things.

I think rather than destroying lands, green should have access to more Plow Under type effects or restrict opponents from playing lands. I think it would also be positive To give green more proactive abilities to fight through the disruption of others. To fight blue, green should have the bulk of the "can't be countered" clauses, shroud, hex proof, maybe an ability that says the only zone the creature can go besides the battlefield is the GY, give green more Flash and tie it to the flavor of ambushing creatures(spiders, cats, snakes). To fight black green could have more "indestructible" or a little more Pro-B. Green could also limit certain gameplay aspects to coincide with it's naturalistic tendencies:

Things like:
GG Creature- 2/2: Flash, When ~ etb, put target land on top of it's owners library.
G Enchantment - Players may only play one artifact, one land, and one instant or sorcery per turn.
GG - Instant, put a land from your hand into play, creatures you own gain Flash until EOT
G - Sorcery, destroy target land, search that land's controller's library for a land and put it on the battlefield tapped.
GG - Sorcery, You may play an additional land this turn. Opponent's can't play lands on their next turn.
GG - 2/2, When ~ etb, search your library for an aura w/ cmc 3 or less and attach it to a permanent you control
GG1 - 3/4, Flash, when ~ etb, it may fight a creature or planes walker you don't control.

[H]

It wasn't supposed to be, that that's what happened...
It's only a couple posts away from becoming another 'Ban Brainstorm' thread. :rolleyes:

Then someone will suggest that Balance is a fair card and should be unbanned, I rip the small amount of hair out of my head and quit posting in my own thread. Can we try to avoid that? :cry:

Here's an idea, what if Green got something that punished opponents for playing noncreature spells somehow? Then again, Heartwood Storyteller isn't exactly good, so maybe that's another dead avenue.

[mlschuma]

Then someone will suggest that Balance is a fair card and should be unbanned, I rip the small amount of hair out of my head and quit posting in my own thread. Can we try to avoid that? :cry:

Here's an idea, what if Green got something that punished opponents for playing noncreature spells somehow? Then again, Heartwood Storyteller isn't exactly good, so maybe that's another dead avenue.

The problem with those types of cards is that they need to be cheap enough to be effective (cmc<3) and not splashable. Which leaves us with GG being the only relevant mana-cost. It probably also needs to be an instant or have flash.

[FoolofaTook]

One of the things WotC hasn't tried yet that might work well to resolve some of the Color Pie issues is a keyword related to spell composition in a list.

Example: Purity - This spell may not be played in a list that has fewer than 30 spells that share a color with it.

This would allow WotC to print single mana spells of significant power that would not be splashable into the "best cards" lists.

So now you have the possibility of Deadly Mongoose :g: Purity. Hexproof. Whenever Deadly Mongoose deals combat damage to an opponent you may put a green creature with CMC less than or equal to Deadly Mongooses power into play from your hand. 2/2

Deadly Confidant :1::b: Purity. When Deadly Confidant enters the battlefield or attacks you may reveal the top card of your library and put it into your hand. If you do so lose life equal to the casting cost of the card. 2/1

Deadly Lavamancer :r: Purity. Tap Deadly Lavamancer and remove a land or red card from your graveyard: do 2 damage to target player or creature. 1/1

[TsumiBand]

Then someone will suggest that Balance is a fair card and should be unbanned, I rip the small amount of hair out of my head and quit posting in my own thread. Can we try to avoid that? :cry:

Here's an idea, what if Green got something that punished opponents for playing noncreature spells somehow? Then again, Heartwood Storyteller isn't exactly good, so maybe that's another dead avenue.

Storyteller is indicative of the right mindset, but it rewards the Green player with more "non-interactive" Green cards if we're talking about mono-Green.

As long as we're trying not to Shitty Card Create but some folks are doing it anyway, if it weren't for Tarmogoyf eating up this real estate I bet Fight could next-level and get something like

Bash Rinse Repeat :2::g:
Sorcery

Choose one:
Target creature you control fights another target creature.
Destroy target nonland permanent if its converted mana cost is less than the power of target creature you control. That permanent deals damage to that creature equal to its converted mana cost.

"There's probably a better wording for this, but whatever." - Some Guy, Of the Achievement Unlocked

If Green is going to take the route of "might makes right" then it should be able to leverage its immense dudes against the opponent's resources. I could see an argument for a 7/7 being able to (literally) trample over a stupid artifact, right?

Apart from all this - it might be a better conversation to have if someone really ran a fine-toothed comb through all the attempted Green 'disruptive' mechanics and took a fresh look at them. Most people don't know about Dosan or Heartwood Storyteller with the same immediacy as they would many other Green cards. New tech gets found in old jank from time to time, it's just a matter of seeing if a newer printing or newer deck gives it a chance to shine again.

[Fatal]

Chains of Nature

Enchantment 1G

Whenever player cast non-creature spell, that player put card from his/her hand on top of its owner library.

Probably little too strong, probably 2G would be more balanced, but on the other hand it could be good enough to stop most cantriping shells in Green color, with a Green effect. Don't forget the effect is symmetrical.

[tescrin]

Honestly, hate-things that use convoke would also be in flavor, as would things that affect opponents based on land and/or creature count.

Oath of Growth - G
Enchantment
At the beginning of each player's upkeep; if they control a number of lands less than each opponent, that player exiles cards from the top of their library until they exile a Land card. Shuffle all non-land cards exiled this way into that player's library and place all land cards exiled this way on top.

Boom. Combo decks and Tempo decks have an obnoxious "You draw a land each turn" enchantment while non-tempo decks can draw their lands. This disrupts combo by "accidentally" controlling their draws, encourages green players to play lands, and doesn't seem actively unfun in newer formats. It disrupts tempo doubly by messing with LD and giving them terrible draws.

It also beats up on LD without making it garbage and opens up the possibility of LD based control decks that win, not through LD, but through draw manipulation. It also beefs up one of the worst effects in the game (rampant growth effects.)


Choking Vines 2G
Enchantment
Convoke
At the end of each player's turn, that player puts a 1/1 Green Vine creature token into play "At the beginning of your upkeep choose an untapped land you control. That land becomes tapped." under under an opponent's control.
When ~ leaves the battlefield, exile all Vine creatures.

Encourages the game to end so it's not a true prison. Encourages creature combat. Puts creatures into play. Instants may still be played and it plays really well with other convoke cards and itself. Your opponent also wins if you don't use the effect properly. It even hoses Blue slightly more than other colors. Amazing.

[Finn]

I remember a tier 2-ish deck from Kamigawa-Ravnica standard that was monogreen control. I remember it because it was such a strange idea to have a green control build. Take a guess what the deck was like. I can wait.
....
...
...
..
..
.
.
....
.
.
.
...

..
.
.
.
.
..
...
OK, got it?
It was little more than Umezawa's Jitte and a bunch of creatures. You guessed that, right?

Green does not do disruption. It is not in its flavor to do it. We should not be wishing it could. Today's disruption is the purview black and blue with white making a strong showing as "sorta". Green used to have disruption. Stunted Growth is unlikely to get done again any time soon. It was deemed out of flavor a decade ago. Ice Storm was green's first, best, and last cheap/proactive disruption. And we all know where land destruction has gone.

Green does creatures. Durable, straight-up aggro creatures. It CAN have abilities tacked onto creatures. Some may even be useful, but most aren't - like nearly every white creature ever printed before 2006. Since wotc seems to be unwilling to go beyond Tarmogoyf in terms of raw power, green is going to need a face lift. As it is, blue gets the best aggro critters and white gets the best disruption critters, so green is out of luck. Very well. What abilities can green have? Well, the bar got raised with Reclamation Sage. That is a good thing. I think that something like a Multani's Acolyte without the echo is exactly what green needs to look like in the coming years. There is not real danger of it being too good. Just don't make it an elf. As it is now, green gets plenty of love. It is just that it only does one thing well - accelerate into fat. It all ends up in THE green deck which we call Elves!

MUST.MAKE.CARDS.
But we want green disruption. OK. I shall try?

Natural Thingie
:g::g: Creature - Thingie
When you cast Natural Thingie, tap target land. That land does not untap as normal during its controller's next untap step.
2/2

-------

Poo on You
:g::g::g::1: Creature - monkey
Haste
When Poo on You enters the battlefield, you can not lose the game until the end of your next turn. If Poo on You would leave the battlefield, exile it instead.
3/2

[Rizso]

One of the things WotC hasn't tried yet that might work well to resolve some of the Color Pie issues is a keyword related to spell composition in a list.

Example: Purity - This spell may not be played in a list that has fewer than 30 spells that share a color with it.

This would allow WotC to print single mana spells of significant power that would not be splashable into the "best cards" lists.

So now you have the possibility of Deadly Mongoose :g: Purity. Hexproof. Whenever Deadly Mongoose deals combat damage to an opponent you may put a green creature with CMC less than or equal to Deadly Mongooses power into play from your hand. 2/2

Deadly Confidant :1::b: Purity. When Deadly Confidant enters the battlefield or attacks you may reveal the top card of your library and put it into your hand. If you do so lose life equal to the casting cost of the card. 2/1

Deadly Lavamancer :r: Purity. Tap Deadly Lavamancer and remove a land or red card from your graveyard: do 2 damage to target player or creature. 1/1

30 cards Is bit to many tbh.

Is there even a single monocolored hatebear in green? Pretty much only disruption green has in its pool is land destruction, artifact and enchantment hate. Absured crazy monogreen permanents / Engine cards like Fastbond, Oath of Druids, Survival of the fittest, Birthing Pod, and thoes arent printed that often, lucky for us.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Wanna play strong decks? Create one!
Wanna play fun decks? The one that is funny for you!
Wanna play interactive decks? Play whatever you want!
Wanna play reliable and consistent decks? Test it until it becomes consistent!
Is there any reason why you're sarcastic? Are you sarcastic, do I get it right?

Point1 is pointless. Powerful decks already exist. Hint, they play blue.
Point2: well, right now I play none, and it's pretty funny, yet I'm not sure that's what you've thought.
Point3... Good luck playing interactive game of Magic with redgreen dumbdudes&hotburn against any "kp, Ponder, no shuffle, gg" type of openings. Some quality magic right here.
Point4 is funny. I guess the tests will lead you to add BS+Ponder. There's hardly any reason to test that, it's a known fact.



What a bunch of hyperbole. Do you guys want some mayonnaise with all that baloney? Let's think a little more rationally about the problem.
That wasn't hyperbole. I joined the Source after years of lurking only to get grasp on possible future look of Legacy AND to get an advice on which deck to keep while selling everything else. Mission accomplished, thank you, community.



Blue has been the core of Vintage and Legacy since day one because Blue got card draw and countermagic, while other colors got less universally good ways of interacting. That's been a known quantity since the dawn of time. Where you guys are going off the reservation is in the claim that other colors lack disruption. Wizards actively prints amazing disruption for other colors like Great Sable Stag.
You meant the disruption that nobody plays? There's what, Choke? Other than DnT, there's nothing else, and even that deck isn't 100% guaranteed to win against the power of BS shell.



Blue, as we said, has the universal answer in countermagic...
...best aggro creatures, best cheats, best CQ and CA tools and best names plus illustrations. Other colours have braces and acne.
I found it funny how the WotC don't even care of fluff, I mean TNN being Merfolk is totally right, right? If it have been Frog Beast Asassin I'd say no word, as frogs are amphibious, but it's merfolk... without a scaphander... and it's walking out of water... it's walking out of water... man, it's walking out of water and it's coming to get us!



And that's not even counting all the old school hate like Red Elemental Blast, Choke whatever. You can safely expect more printings like this that exploit a blue metagame. Just calm down and design a deck to exploit Blue's dominance if you dislike it so strongly.
But that's something completely different.
I dislike blue dominance for some reasons, which I listed and wanted to have some discussion on the aspect of blue's dominance and non-blue's lack of EFFECTIVE disruption (please, no more Mistcutter Hydra, I didn't even knew it exists).But the answer you gave me is "build a deck that wins against blue"? That's silly. Seriously, that's complete nonsense. I'm not asking for a help against blue (moreover, I don't care if it's blue or green or w/e, it'll be bad even if it would be purple who's holding the rest of colors in prison), my concern is the colour balance in game with five colours, not a killing decklist.



It is encouraging that WotC is trying to print blue hate. But they have to be careful because forcing blue out would probably turn many players away from the game......especially considering the potential effect on limited play (and thus: sales) if all the future prints would turn into AntiBlue Patch 3.11b.



I do not see :u: decks as a problem. OmniTell, Sneak and Show, Merfolk, Miracles, U/R Delver are all doing pretty different things and the value of certain U staples are debated based on the strategy (a :u: deck that doesn't play Brainstorm? Wtf Merfolk???). The issue is the Delver/Brainstorm/Ponder/FoW/Daze shell that gets splashed into every deck greedy enough to forego a basic land.
The main offender is the Derper-Daze archetype, of course, as the seven flavours of deck bring just a small strategical diversity while they retain the same op principles and offer the same boring gameplay.



more Plow Under...
Fetchlands...



The problem with those types of cards is that they need to be cheap enough to be effective (cmc<3) and not splashable. Which leaves us with GG being the only relevant mana-cost. It probably also needs to be an instant or have flash.
Without trying to be the part of the Crappy Cards Creation Contest... It's not like green (or any other colour) needs this or that, at least it's not a consensus. Look, people don't even agree on the importance of color balance, so it's too soon to bring any solutions to what's not identified as a trouble.
I'd be glad if people realize that there are reasons why ANY disbalance is problematic, or if they at the very least stopped delegitimazing any view that supports the more balanced color representation.
Btw, it might be that color balance is linked to strategical diversity, as the recent Legacy field is pretty shitty compared to say what's going on in Old School, even though there are allowed only the most horribly tested expansions ever. I mean... all the Erhnamgeddon and Erhnam-and-burn-em and White Weenies and wutnot are trying to win through red zone, and the Keeper decks are Keeper decks and combo doesn't exist except for fringe stuff with Colosus and Sacrifice and All Hallow's Eve and w/e. But it's still at least comparable to what Legacy might bring with its pool of 21years worthy of cards that degenerated into Delverdelverdelverdlvelrdlerldlvelrldlvlelrdr metagame that's so much funny that there was no movement on my PW points account since like July.



One of the things WotC hasn't tried yet that might work well to resolve some of the Color Pie issues is a keyword related to spell composition in a list.

Example: Purity - This spell may not be played in a list that has fewer than 30 spells that share a color with it.
Please no, that's Worldgorger's Contract With Shahrazad, a real nightmare. :really:




Apart from all this - it might be a better conversation to have if someone really ran a fine-toothed comb through all the attempted Green 'disruptive' mechanics and took a fresh look at them. Most people don't know about Dosan or Heartwood Storyteller with the same immediacy as they would many other Green cards. New tech gets found in old jank from time to time, it's just a matter of seeing if a newer printing or newer deck gives it a chance to shine again.
Although hive mind is a real thing, I still believe that someone would already abandon the blue shell for that broken green suite. Alas...

[Darkenslight]

30 cards Is bit to many tbh.

Is there even a single monocolored hatebear in green? Pretty much only disruption green has in its pool is land destruction, artifact and enchantment hate. Absured crazy monogreen permanents / Engine cards like Fastbond, Oath of Druids, Survival of the fittest, Birthing Pod, and thoes arent printed that often, lucky for us.

What I'd like to see in the next Commander set, for example, is a gg 3/1 with 'Your opponents can't play nonbasic lands." That's it. Make sure it isn't an Elf and we're all set, and then more interesting things should happen.

Red should get more counterspells that interact with the stack, White should be much more defensive (cards more like Avoid Fate or Rebuff the Wicked. Black doesn't need any more disruption, but it might be nice to have more things like Imp's Mischief.

[frafen]

After playing with Vines of Vastwood I realized that I liked a lot the little destruptive interactions that you can do with that card if you target your opponent creatures. Maybe could be created something like Vines but that can interact also with spells and players:


:1::g::g: Will of the Wild

-Instant

If you control a Forest, you may tap an untapped green creature you control instead of paying Will of the Wild mana cost.

Target player, permanent or spell can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control this turn.

[Slag]

:1::g::g: Will of the Wild

-Instant

If you control a Forest, you may tap an untapped green creature you control instead of paying Will of the Wild mana cost.

Target player, permanent or spell can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control this turn.

I believe you win the cigar. That card is a very clever blend of defensive and disruptive utility, with reasonable restrictions on casting.

[sjmcc13]

As it is, blue gets the best aggro critters ... ... so green is out of luck.

Which is the problem with the current state of the game right there.

Blues strength was always it support/disruption spells, It creatures were always it weakness. The new design mentality has negated this and not you have blue being strong in both creaturers and support spells.
Green should have the best aggro creatures, Blue should have defensive and support creatures and finishers that come down after stabilizing.

[H]

Well, as Standard has become increasingly creature-centric, of course Blue has gotten better and better creatures, compared to what it did in the early days. If they didn't, Blue would be terrible in Standard and they aren't going to have that.

Right now, though, I am hunting through Gatherer to put together a list of all the Green "disruption" I can find...

[MaximumC]

The problem with hate cards to defuse Blue's dominance as the core color of choice is that Blue can actually play those cards, too. Why not just design around that?

Anti-Blue Goyf
1G
4/6
Whenever you cast a Blue spell, you lose 5 life. At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice all Islands you control.

Anti-Blue Disruptor
1G
3/4
Flash
When this comes into play, if your opponent would draw a card this turn, they discard a card instead.
At the beginning of each end step, reveal your hand and discard all Blue cards in it.

These cards are dumb, but they certainly get the point across.

[FoolofaTook]

The problem with hate cards to defuse Blue's dominance as the core color of choice is that Blue can actually play those cards, too. Why not just design around that?

Anti-Blue Goyf
1G
4/6
Whenever you cast a Blue spell, you lose 5 life. At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice all Islands you control.

Anti-Blue Disruptor
1G
3/4
Flash
When this comes into play, if your opponent would draw a card this turn, they discard a card instead.
At the beginning of each end step, reveal your hand and discard all Blue cards in it.

These cards are dumb, but they certainly get the point across.

The problem with this is that the point is not to screw blue. The point is to make cards in other colors that are good enough to make you not want to play blue.

That Nimble Mongoose only works in a blue shell is a perfect example of what's wrong with Magic right now. That Thoughtseize is best in a blue shell is another one. That Swords to Plowshares has the most value in a blue shell is a third.

The only color that has managed to retain some of it's power cards as somewhat better in a non-blue shell is red and that's because Lightning Bolt is good in anything but it is particularly good in lists that have a lot of other damage spells also. Even then it's a coin-flip with some of the blue shell lists vs the strictly red ones.

The primary problem is the consistency issue. That's why red lists can make as good use of Lightning Bolt as blue-shell lists. Everything you throw into a blue-shell list as a 4-of will figure into your game plan in about 90% of the games you play. It's more like 67% of the time in non blue-shell lists unless the entire list is lands and things that do very similar things, like burn and Elves and D&T.

[H]

Ok, this is really roughly done, but here are all the Green "disruptive" effects I could find:

-1/-1 to a creature
Artifacts and Lands enter tapped
Artifacts cost more to cast
Artifacts lose abilities and become creatures
Attacking creature's power becomes 0
Attacking creature gets -X/-0
Counter activated ability of Artifact
Counter Black spells
Creatures lose flying
Creatures lose infect
Creature doesn't untap
Deal Damage to attacking creatures
Deal Damage to flying creatures
Deal Damage to a creature equal to the number of creatures you have more than it's controler
Deal Damage to a player equal to the number of cards in their hand
Deal Damage to a player equal to the number of flying creatures they control
Deal Damage to a player equal to the number of Islands they control
Defending player can't play spell for the rest of the turn
Destroy Flying Creatures
Destroy Horsemanship Creatures
Destroy Aftifacts
Destroy Enchantments
Destroy Lands
Destroy Permanent
Destroy nonCreature Permanents
Destroy Creature with Lowest Power
Destroy Islands
Destroy Enchanted Permanents
Deal Damage to attacking creature
Deal Damage to creature or player
Enchantments that change types/remove abilities
Exile Artifacts
Exile cards from graveyard
Fight
Forces creatures to block
Gain control of an artifact
Gain control of a Legendary creature
Islands don't untap
Lands a player controls tap for only 1 color
Lands only tap for colorless
Loses Bands
Players cannot gain poison counters
Punisher for playing Island/Blue permanents
Punisher for playing Swamps/Black permanents
Prevent combat damage
Prevent damage
Put a nonCreature permanent on top of a library
Put cards from hand on top of library
Remove creatures from combat
Sacrifice an Artifact
Shuffle artifacts or enchantments into library
Spells/Abilities can only be played on own turn
Untap an attacking creature and prevent it's damage

The best one clearly is, Loses Bands (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=1544).

There is actually more variety than I felt their might be, but they are still mostly useless, besides the Artifact and Enchantment removal.

[thefreakaccident]

I'm quite glad you didn't turn around and say, "What are you guys complaining about?" lol.

[Slag]

I think some of those abilities would have more legs if the cards they were put on were a little better. "Provoke," the forces to block mechanic, would be better on creatures that weren't hill giants. And if a creature had fight and deathtouch (even at bad stats, like three mana for a 1/1), it would be a halfway decent piece of removal.

[MaximumC]

The problem with this is that the point is not to screw blue. The point is to make cards in other colors that are good enough to make you not want to play blue.


Right, but my point is that if you print good cards in other colors then Blue can simply use them. You'd have to print cards that are not usable in a blue shell.

[PirateKing]

Right, but my point is that if you print good cards in other colors then Blue can simply use them. You'd have to print cards that are not usable in a blue shell.

I think the best two examples of this are Green Sun's Zenith and Natural Order. Both specify green creature and severely limit the use outside of green centered decks. If Survival of the Fittest was reprinted with "green creature" replacing every instance of "creature" it'd still be played, because that doesn't alter its target-of-choice, but you've shut out the UBg decks from throwing a few in.

I don't know about disruption, since green has always been about giving you more rather than giving your opponent less. You find lands and creatures, not destroy opponent's lands and creatures.

But if you're looking to limit the use off color, limiting "creature" to "green creature" or "land" to "forest" will maintain relevancy in green decks and discourage others without needing to print, "at the beginning of your upkeep, search your graveyard, hand, and library for all Islands and exile them. Then shuffle your library."

[TsumiBand]

Right, but my point is that if you print good cards in other colors then Blue can simply use them. You'd have to print cards that are not usable in a blue shell.

Hard casting costs can still do that though. There are really not very many lists right now with double-colored non-Blue costs; the mess of Delver/Threshold/Stoneblade lists that somehow distinguish themselves from each other (oh you play StP instead of Bolt; you rebel you) carry a very very similar Blue engine and almost 100% of spells in those decks have no repeated mana symbols. In other words - yes, you'll see an Abrupt Decay or two but you won't see any :g::g: or :b::b:. I doubt it is solely a matter of power level; it can't be, those guys want mobility in the event of a Wasteland or Stifle or other land-savvy tech. You would expect to see something like Eidolon of the Great Revel in a Delver list if it was a matter of good decks always eating good spells, but that doesn't happen, even in two-color lists.

[rufus]

I think some of those abilities would have more legs if the cards they were put on were a little better. "Provoke," the forces to block mechanic, would be better on creatures that weren't hill giants. And if a creature had fight and deathtouch (even at bad stats, like three mana for a 1/1), it would be a halfway decent piece of removal.

Making fight a non-tap ability would probably be enough. A 2/1 with "0:~ fights target creature" would be pretty good for :1::g:.

[TsumiBand]

I strongly doubt they could ever print ":0: This fights something" without a timing restriction or play X times per turn restriction, otherwise it just gains protection and fights every creature on the other side of the board. There are a million ways to do it with Maverick; SFM -> Sword of XY, Mother of Runes, etc. It's a little Voltron-y, but it isn't like every GW deck in the world wasn't already trying to do that.

[H]

I am definitely OK with Green not getting premier creature removal, that seems like what White has been doing forever.

If Green's game is to play creatures, why can't it have cards that punish opponents who are casting disproportionally large amounts of non-creature spells?

[rufus]

I strongly doubt they could ever print ":0: This fights something" without a timing restriction or play X times per turn...

Yeah, you're right. It should be something like "if this hasn't fought something this turn, it fights target creature". I'm honestly wondering how problematic a 2-card creature wipe like that would really be for legacy.

[PirateKing]

I strongly doubt they could ever print ":0: This fights something" without a timing restriction or play X times per turn restriction, otherwise it just gains protection and fights every creature on the other side of the board. There are a million ways to do it with Maverick; SFM -> Sword of XY, Mother of Runes, etc. It's a little Voltron-y, but it isn't like every GW deck in the world wasn't already trying to do that.

You could just do an alternate cost. Like "Put a -1/-1 counter on ~: ~ fights target creature."

[Gheizen64]

I am definitely OK with Green not getting premier creature removal, that seems like what White has been doing forever.

If Green's game is to play creatures, why can't it have cards that punish opponents who are casting disproportionally large amounts of non-creature spells?

Because green is all about permanents? That's the green magic feel imho. Root maze variants effects would be incredibly strong in this format if you could build a bit more around them (ex: only hit non-basics and artifacts), or a choke for artifacts, or a null rod effect, or something like veteran explorer etc... Fight and big creatures. If anything green could get more card draw and permanent removal (think desert twister, bramblecrush, winter's grasp etc...) because those things feel perfectly in line with green phylosophy.

[H]

Root Maze is actually really good, even right now. The problem is that the two other best disruption options you have are Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void and both of those are actively bad with Maze. If they would give us a Root Maze with legs and perhaps some less expensive Land Destruction, I could see a mono-Green deck be quite good.

[phonics]

Plow Under and Stunted Growth with convoke and delve.

[TsumiBand]

Honestly if it were going to be anything it'd be Bramblecrush variants, almost certainly.

Additionally Green's penchant for mana ramp is an undoing as well, because you see these great effects like Plow Under and Restock for like 5 mana. If mana dorks weren't so self-defeating, it'd be no problem to rock a deck with mana dorks, Plow Unders, and then some staunch Green beater that's all about that bass walks over and ends the game in 2 punches.

[Gheizen64]

That said, what color do u think those abilities would be?

- target player can't draw cards/play lands next turn
- fateseal

Fateseal feel black and blue to me, more black, something like an inverse Preordain fit perfectly into black flavor. It has surprised me this mechanic hasn't been used more, only 2 fateshifted cards for now, both blue, but just look at this, it's totally black:

Madnesstorm B
Sorcery
Target player discard a card. Fateseal 2.

Target player can't play lands next turn feel very green and red, while can't draw feel very white. White has already the silence effect, while green has the fog effects and exploration. If you think about it, Plow under effects are basically a "skip your next land drop" effect, so i could totally see it in green and red:

Tectonic instability R/G
Sorcery
Deal 1 damage to target player. That player can't play lands during his next turn.

If you think about it, Root Maze is basically a reverse exploration (simmetric) since it make you play half a land per turn, or a third of a land against fetches. Winter Orb effects also feel very green since they're messing with lands , but not destroying them like red would. Like:

Winter's Grasp 1G
Enchantment
As Winter's Grasp etb, tap all lands.
Players can't untap more than 1 land a turn during their untap phase.
Any player may tap 3 untapped lands he or she control to destroy Winter's Grasp.


That feel really green, like an harsh winter that strike the land and make getting mana from them harder, but eventually go away.

As i see it, there's a lot of space for disruption in any color, it's just that WotC has been focusing only on creatures and really don't care about interesting effects lately. This has dumbed down the game, but it has also sadly ruined the balance of the colors because if everything that matters are creatures, then color differences tend to be less important, and you see things like the best creatures ever printed being printed in blue which was conceiveda as a completely different color at the beginning.

[Rizso]

That said, what color do u think those abilities would be?

- target player can't draw cards/play lands next turn
- fateseal

Fateseal feel black and blue to me, more black, something like an inverse Preordain fit perfectly into black flavor. It has surprised me this mechanic hasn't been used more, only 2 fateshifted cards for now, both blue, but just look at this, it's totally black:

Madnesstorm B
Sorcery
Target player discard a card. Fateseal 2.

Target player can't play lands next turn feel very green and red, while can't draw feel very white. White has already the silence effect, while green has the fog effects and exploration. If you think about it, Plow under effects are basically a "skip your next land drop" effect, so i could totally see it in green and red:

Tectonic instability R/G
Sorcery
Deal 1 damage to target player. That player can't play lands during his next turn.

If you think about it, Root Maze is basically a reverse exploration (simmetric) since it make you play half a land per turn, or a third of a land against fetches. Winter Orb effects also feel very green since they're messing with lands , but not destroying them like red would. Like:

Winter's Grasp 1G
Enchantment
As Winter's Grasp etb, tap all lands.
Players can't untap more than 1 land a turn during their untap phase.
Any player may pay 3 to destroy Winter's Grasp.


That feel really green, like an harsh winter that strike the land and make getting mana from them harder, but eventually go away.

As i see it, there's a lot of space for disruption in any color, it's just that WotC has been focusing only on creatures and really don't care about interesting effects lately. This has dumbed down the game, but it has also sadly ruined the balance of the colors because if everything that matters are creatures, then color differences tend to be less important, and you see things like the best creatures ever printed being printed in blue which was conceiveda as a completely different color at the beginning.

First ability is actually blue. White has in its pie to take away permissions, thats why they are everywhere. But as a insant or sorcery blue has stealing card draws, Plagiarize, Zur's Weirding. Denying card draw could be black, but thoes cards arent printed much as its just as landhate just 1 player will get to play the game. Red have had a few cards to deny playing lands but just as land destruction they dont really get printed anymore.

Wintersgrasp is actually quite blue. For example Rising Waters, stasis. Red is prime hate of non-basic lands with Green and black second. Bloodmoon, Ruination, Price of Progress, Burning Earth etc. Back to basic is in the wrong color pretty much. Green is more geting back to nature, flourish in mana. Back to Basic could pretty much be a green card. Wintersgrasp could be that nonbasic etb tapped and only 1 untap and that card could be green. But shouldnt affect basics.

Delver is actually quite in the blue colorpie but its just undercosted. True-Name however isnt in the blue pie at all. Dont really get why both Dig and cruise was decided to be blue as dig feels more black. Digging Through the graveyard for knowledge. Black has the tutor effects in its pie and Dig is pretty much a tutor.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Ok, this is really roughly done, but here are all the Green "disruptive" effects I could find:
There is actually more variety than I felt their might be, but they are still mostly useless, besides the Artifact and Enchantment removal.
You forgot Primal Order.

[TsumiBand]

Too bad LD is a verboten mechanic, because an aggressively costed Reap and Sow would be great right?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Too bad LD is a verboten mechanic, because an aggressively costed Reap and Sow would be great right?
You forgot Mwonvuli Acid-Moss.

[H]

You forgot Primal Order.

Yes I did. There probably a couple more I missed. Green is actually has more ways of dealing damage than I remembered off the top of my head.

How good do you think a Primal Order creature would be?

[TsumiBand]

You forgot Mwonvuli Acid-Moss.

Kind of? Except the difference between "get a tapped Forest" and "get an untapped land" is pretty big. That's part of the reason durdly acceleration doesn't really add up to anything, because it doesn't necessarily do anything in the late game. Like, if Mwonvuli Acid-Moss let you get any land, you'd see plays like

:2::g::g:: Destroy target land, get a Wasteland, destroy target land.
:2::g::g:: Destroy target land, get a Treetop Village.(or whatever man-land is boss against opponent)
:2::g::g:: Destroy target land, get Gaea's Cradle, play all kinds of I don't even

I mean that would be bonkers, right? At 4 mana I'd look hard at that effect. At 6 though, it keeps itself out of the game.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

How good do you think a Primal Order creature would be?
Depends. If it would be an Erhnam-like dude with cmc4, than yeah, that'll be good. A 2/2? Not really...



Kind of? Except the difference between "get a tapped Forest" and "get an untapped land" is pretty big.
Of course. I was semi-serious. :smile:
I mean, there's at least something, and you may find Dryad Arbour to start the 1/1 beats. But that isn't the most thrilling play ever. Otoh, it's still an interesting card... that sees no play at all.

[Kagehisa]

Lightning Bolt could be printed in green and feel green. Le met try.

Green lightning bolt on legs
G
Creature

3/1

Flash

As it enters the battlefield, choose one
-it comes into play with shroud, haste and is unblocable.
Or
-When this creature enters battlefield, it fights target creature.

Sacrifice it at end of turn.

[Zombie]

Otoh, it's still an interesting card... that sees no play at all.

Was played in Pauper when broken things were still allowed there. Turns out monoG 8-post with Acid-Moss and Reap and Sow does a number to UR 8-post control :P (and then gets Stormed and Infected out, naturally. <3 old Pauper)

[H]

Depends. If it would be an Erhnam-like dude with cmc4, than yeah, that'll be good. A 2/2? Not really...

I was thinking a 3/4 for 3, like Burning-Tree Shaman. Probably like :1::g::g: or something like that.

[phonics]

GGG
2/4 treefolk
uncounterable
hexproof
indestructible
non creature spells cannot be played.

BBB
2/4 zombie
Whenever a spell is cast, counter it unless its controller sacrifices a permanent.
BB: return from graveyard to play

RR
1/2 mintoaur
flash
blue spells cost 3 more

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I was thinking a 3/4 for 3, like Burning-Tree Shaman. Probably like :1::g::g: or something like that.
That would be solid, it'll be easy to cast turn2 and it survives bolt. I like the idea.


@phonics: Quite brutal... :smile:

[Fatal]

@phonics


phonics
GGG
2/4 treefolk
uncounterable
hexproof
indestructible
non creature spells cannot be played.

BBB
2/4 zombie
Whenever a spell is cast, counter it unless its controller sacrifices a permanent.
BB: return from graveyard to play

RR
1/2 mintoaur
flash
blue spells cost 3 more

Too powerful.

Treefolk is too restrictive - I would remove Hexproof for sure and change to non-creature spells cost 4 more - can't played is too restrictive since you just can't remove it.

Zombie could be interesting - I would change cost of returning from BB to sacrafice a permanent to rebalance (BB is too less) Pox would would play it just as punishing fire for returning.

I very like Minotaur - in this shape it is balanced.

[jafar]

In another thread I suggested this:

"Rage of the granny treefolk"

:r::g:

Instant

Split Second

Counter target noncreature spell.

Opinions?

Bye

[Sloshthedark]

GGG
2/4 treefolk
uncounterable
hexproof
indestructible
non creature spells cannot be played.

BBB
2/4 zombie
Whenever a spell is cast, counter it unless its controller sacrifices a permanent.
BB: return from graveyard to play

RR
1/2 mintoaur
flash
blue spells cost 3 more

lol, absurd

[H]

Yeah, I can't advocate going that far.

However, a Primal Order creature for 3 doesn't seem crazy to me. Nor does a really good land destruction spell. For example, "Destroy target non-basic land, it's controller my search his or her library for a Basic land and put it in to play tapped." Maybe cost at 1 or 2 mana, put it in an EDH set where it wouldn't be broken at all, in fact, I think that card would be great for that too.

[Zombie]

Yeah, I can't advocate going that far.

However, a Primal Order creature for 3 doesn't seem crazy to me. Nor does a really good land destruction spell. For example, "Destroy target non-basic land, it's controller my search his or her library for a Basic land and put it in to play tapped." Maybe cost at 1 or 2 mana, put it in an EDH set where it wouldn't be broken at all, in fact, I think that card would be great for that too.

Creeping Restoration GG
Sorcery
Destroy target nonbasic land. It's controller may search his or her library for a basic Forest card and but it onto the battlefield tapped. That land doesn't untap at the beginning of it's controllers next untap step.

[Undomian]

I'd kind of like to see Nether Void on a guy. It wouldn't be played in blue decks, and it could breathe some life into decks like Pox or something.

Nether Adept 1BB
Creature - Human Cleric
Whenever a player casts a spell, counter it unless that player pays 3.
1/2

[H]

Creeping Restoration GG
Sorcery
Destroy target nonbasic land. It's controller may search his or her library for a basic Forest card and but it onto the battlefield tapped. That land doesn't untap at the beginning of it's controllers next untap step.

Well, I don't know if the card should be that much better than Sinkhole or not, I'm not even sure if that's better than Sinkhole.


I'd kind of like to see Nether Void on a guy. It wouldn't be played in blue decks, and it could breathe some life into decks like Pox or something.

Nether Adept 1BB
Creature - Human Cleric
Whenever a player casts a spell, counter it unless that player pays 3.
1/2

That would definitely have been more interesting than Magus of the Abyss.

[rufus]

If this is shitty card creation...

3:r::r:
Instant
You may exile a red card from your hand rather than pay ~'s casting cost.
You may chose new targets for target spell.

3:w::w:
Instant
You may exile a white card from your hand rather than pay ~'s casting cost.
Players may not cast spells this turn.

3:b::b:
Instant
You may exile a black card from your hand rather than pay ~'s casting cost.
Whenever a player draws a card, if that's not the first card that player drew this turn, the player discards a card and then draws a card instead.

3:g::g:
Instant
You may exile a green card from your hand rather than pay ~'s casting cost.
If a land would enter the battlefield from a player's library this turn, that land enters the battlefield as a basic forest. (This effect lasts indefinitely.)
Draw a card.

3:u::u:
Instant
You may exile a blue card from your hand rather than pay ~'s casting cost.
End the turn. Skip your next turn.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

rufus, the last one should have blue symbols, right? also, I really like the crappy Stifle, lol, I'd love to play that. "Pitching Mongoose, stifling your turn0 fetch, gg." :smile:

[rufus]

rufus, the last one should have blue symbols, right? also, I really like the crappy Stifle, lol, I'd love to play that. "Pitching Mongoose, stifling your turn0 fetch, gg." :smile:

Yeah, I fixed it. In the tradition of shitty card creation, all of those should be pretty strong.

[H]

If this is shitty card creation...


Well, it wasn't supposed to be. It was to discuss if there is room in the color pie for Green to have it's slice of disruption and what it would look like.

Making up cards to illustrate that is fine, but it's more of a discussion of effects rather can cards, per se.

[Zombie]

Well, I don't know if the card should be that much better than Sinkhole or not, I'm not even sure if that's better than Sinkhole.

It's strictly worse than Sinkhole. The player whose land gets blown up gets the Forest, it's just laggy :P

[FoolofaTook]

WotC isn't going to put effective land destruction into the game at this point. They have a warped view of what Magic really is, which is a game in which players create the board from nothing and then try to exploit what they've created.

WotC believes Magic is a linear back and forth in which the board sequentially grows with a lot of interaction between the players and the last good play wins the game.

A game in which the play space is an open question from turn to turn is more in the spirit of the original game and it's more fun to play but it doesn't meet WotC's requirements in terms of competitive play. They want people to put their cards into play and then the guy with the best cards in play to win at the end after the opponent has had several chances to interact in the process.

The silly thing is that luck becomes a bigger factor in that kind of linear game.

[rufus]

It's strictly worse than Sinkhole. The player whose land gets blown up gets the Forest, it's just laggy :P

Only if there's a basic forest in his or her library.

[thefreakaccident]

You're right that it does boil down to that Foolofatook. I often feel like im the better player with the better deck on magicworkstation, but i always feel helpless when i get screwed by the shuffler and therefore never win. LOL, it happens without fail. Finding 0 lands in decks with 30+ land, getting manaflooded in decks with 16 land... Every fucking time.

Impossible to get a fair game in that program.

The game is all about who gets the better draws nowadays, especially with the power creep.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

WotC isn't going to put effective land destruction into the game at this point. They have a warped view of what Magic really is, which is a game in which players create the board from nothing and then try to exploit what they've created.

WotC believes Magic is a linear back and forth in which the board sequentially grows with a lot of interaction between the players and the last good play wins the game.

A game in which the play space is an open question from turn to turn is more in the spirit of the original game and it's more fun to play but it doesn't meet WotC's requirements in terms of competitive play. They want people to put their cards into play and then the guy with the best cards in play to win at the end after the opponent has had several chances to interact in the process.

The silly thing is that luck becomes a bigger factor in that kind of linear game.

I have to agree, which, if no one minds me saying so then letting the subject sit for now, is why I believe Brainstorm shouldn't be banned, but rather other colors get similar effects (save for Green, which gets Sylvan Library already). It reduces the amount of luck present in the game, making the game more skill-intensive in terms of deckbuilding and playing

[TsumiBand]

I suppose if you throw cmc out the window, Vorinclex is a fair example of what Green disruption could potentially be. You'd never see such an effect on a creature that costs less, as least I can't imagine seeing it on a smaller body, but Vorinclex will muck up the opponent's mana production pretty bad. It's too bad that guys like Progenitus and Craterhoof make better high-end targets for things like GSZ and Natural Order, otherwise Vorinclex would be part of some kind of fucked up Green Stax variant. (the discussion could halt somewhere around "just play Back to Basics" on a long enough timeline, but that's talking about 'the Blue problem' instead of talking about 'the state of Green', so.)

Undergrowth is a good example of a bad card, but its heart is in the right place -- Fog for :g:, or Only Fog Nonred Creatures for :2::g::r:. Selective Fog effects feel more White just because they dick with combat math, and arguably that is the last place that disruption tends to matter (why Fog when you could just kill the threat). If there were some variant, like one with Multikicker or whatever that let you pay :2: and counted the mana colors you spent to cast it and only allowed those colors to deal damage... then it'd still just be Limited trickery, probably.

I guess Tajuru Preserver is an interesting effect, but sacrifice is pretty tied to Annihilator, which is tied to Emrakul, and so preventing Annihilator 6 still leaves that whole "take 15?" thing up in the air.

[TsumiBand]

You're right that it does boil down to that Foolofatook. I often feel like im the better player with the better deck on magicworkstation, but i always feel helpless when i get screwed by the shuffler and therefore never win. LOL, it happens without fail. Finding 0 lands in decks with 30+ land, getting manaflooded in decks with 16 land... Every fucking time.

Impossible to get a fair game in that program.

The game is all about who gets the better draws nowadays, especially with the power creep.

In fairness, I've beaten a 45Lands player who kept a no-land hand and proceed to draw no lands over 4 turns while I Goblined them to death IRL. This stuff happens. (sort of) Though I know electronic shufflers get a bad rap for being poor by nature.

[nedleeds]

The second would probably be decent as a Green Blood Moon.

Green had these effects for some time around Mirage with


Hall of Gemstone
Primal Order
Ritual of Subdual

[iamajellydonut]

Though I know electronic shufflers get a bad rap for being poor by nature.

Electronic shufflers get a bad rap for functioning correctly.

[Richard Cheese]

I just wish they had put AEther Flash onto a body in the last block.

[FoolofaTook]

I have to agree, which, if no one minds me saying so then letting the subject sit for now, is why I believe Brainstorm shouldn't be banned, but rather other colors get similar effects (save for Green, which gets Sylvan Library already). It reduces the amount of luck present in the game, making the game more skill-intensive in terms of deckbuilding and playing

Sylvan Library is not good enough, which is why you don't see a lot of good lists playing 4x Sylvan Library. It lands too late to help you straighten out a bad draw when you're on the draw. The other guy is already up and running and you're not fixing anything until after his turn 3. This is true in a hyper-organized meta in which the blue shell dictates that turn 3 is too late to fix things.

A Sylvan Library effect that casts for :g: and allows you to look at the top 3 cards during your second upkeep (Mirri's Guile) is not good enough.

An effect that allowed you to look at the top 3 cards and pay 4 life to put one in hand during your upkeep is what you need to keep up with the blue shells Ponders and Brainstorms. Even then it might not be good enough because it would be unusable against Burn and a lot of fast aggro, whereas Ponder and Brainstorm are equally good against all archetypes.

The Legacy meta is too engineered around the mull and the blue shell at this point. That's what takes the majesty out of the game.

In the old single meta you only got to mull if you had all lands or no lands. The only cantrip effects available were Ancestral Recall x1 and Timewalk x1. There were no free counters available. There was lots of turn 1 and turn 2 creature disruption available (Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Paralyze, Balance, Boomerang, Spirit Link, etc.) There was lots of artifact disruption available (Crumble, Disenchant, Shatter, Energy Flux, Shatterstorm, etc.) There was a ton of fast mana available (Black Lotus, Moxes, Sol Ring, Dark Ritual, Mana Vault, etc.)

The first MTG World Championship in July of 1994 was won by Zak Dolan playing an early version of the blue shell. This despite all the fast mana and heavy combos and big creatures available turn 1. How did he do it? He build a solid list with 27 mana sources and 33 spells around UW and he slowly wore people down.

The second MTG World Championship in July of 1995 was won by Brian Weissman playing a more evolved version of the blue shell. This despite all the fast mana and heavy combos and big creatures available turn 1. How did he do it? He splashed red into the UW shell and added Jayemdae Tomes to give him card advantage late and inevitability. He was also playing 27 mana sources and 33 spells.

WotC's response to all of this was to dumb the game down by removing all the fast mana (except Dark Ritual, Sol Ring, Mana Vault and Mishra's Workshop) because somehow the fast mana was the root of Magic's problems, not the fact that it is a game of chance in which 15 cards out of the 60 you see will in all probability win or lose for you most of the time.

That meta, before WotC dumbed everything down was a much better meta than anything we have seen since. The two blue shell lists won because nobody really saw them coming. The internet basically consisted of Prodigy and Compuserve and Listserv at that point and almost nobody was tuned in. If that meta had been allowed to evolve appropriately we'd have come closer to the real vision of Magic, when it was created, than we have at any point since.

I'd go on a long explanation of the Black/Green/Blue list that I was developing at the time of the split but that would be self-serving. Suffice it to say that I got to the rounds of 16 twice in a row at 512+ person single elimination tourneys with it and got ousted by extremely efficient Burn each time after knocking off carbon copy after carbon copy of "The Deck" to get there.

It was a great meta and it had the early version of the blue shell and was not dominated by it despite Dolan and Weissman's achievements. Then everything went to hell and somehow out of that we got a meta in which the blue shell is dominant and the only thing that matters. That's like a 20 year rolling nightmare at this point.

[H]

In fairness, I've beaten a 45Lands player who kept a no-land hand and proceed to draw no lands over 4 turns while I Goblined them to death IRL. This stuff happens. (sort of) Though I know electronic shufflers get a bad rap for being poor by nature.

Color screwing Lands can also be a thing too. I've done it and seen it done with Death and Taxes. If you choke them on Green mana, they'll lose.


Green had these effects for some time around Mirage with


Hall of Gemstone
Primal Order
Ritual of Subdual


Indeed, I feel like a Green Primal Order creature would be good. Green should hate on non-Basics, it's part of what it always did. I know we'll never see Standard-legal decent land destruction spell ever again, but these new "Commander" decks should be able to give us decent non-basic hate, since almost every EDH deck runs some number of Basics.


I just wish they had put AEther Flash onto a body in the last block.

I have an irrational love for that card. I had an Oros EDH deck a long time ago where I would always try to get Flash plus Death Pits of Rath

[TsumiBand]

I had an Oros EDH deck a long time ago where I would always try to get Flash plus Death Pits of Rath

Son, has anyone told you about the Gospel of Izzet? We hold fast to the powers of Overload.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Snip

Gonna paste the response to this in the B/R thread, as discussion of Brainstorm and solutions to it aren't really applicable to Color Pie and Disruption.

[Rizso]

I'd kind of like to see Nether Void on a guy. It wouldn't be played in blue decks, and it could breathe some life into decks like Pox or something.

Nether Adept 1BB
Creature - Human Cleric
Whenever a player casts a spell, counter it unless that player pays 3.
1/2

Nether Void isnt in the black colorpie anymore Just like fast mana like Dark Rituals. Taxing effects are currently in the white colorpie.

There is so many cards existing that are in the wrong color, especially the old cards.

[thefreakaccident]

White or Black, the nether void creature would be good in b/w pikula.

[Rizso]

White or Black, the nether void creature would be good in b/w pikula.

Such a powerful taxing effect will probly never be printed again.

[Darkenslight]

Such a powerful taxing effect will probly never be printed again.

Maybe if they made it noncreature, and made it :2: rather than :3: .

[Rizso]

Maybe if they made it noncreature, and made it :2: rather than :3: .

Its the Ratio thats of. Increasing spells even with 2 on a creature at 3 mana wont happend :P We should be happy that the 4 mana of nether void and rarity of the card makes it less played.

[TsumiBand]

Just dick with the Black card more until it's a White 2/1 named Thalia, because that's what that card would pretty much have to become in order to sit right with the Pie of Much Color. It won't be Green disruption, but it might get played in Maverick. vOv

[Rizso]

Just dick with the Black card more until it's a White 2/1 named Thalia, because that's what that card would pretty much have to become in order to sit right with the Pie of Much Color. It won't be Green disruption, but it might get played in Maverick. vOv

Tax effects arent in the black colorpie. Its white primary, blue secondary.

Green and disruption dont really exist like it does for other colors.

[Darkenslight]

Tax effects arent in the black colorpie. Its white primary, blue secondary.

Green and disruption dont really exist like it does for other colors.

I think that Black could get a Propaganda effect that paid life to attack, similar to Norn's Annex, but it would largely be in a set focussed around paying life for stuff.

[TsumiBand]

Tax effects arent in the black colorpie. Its white primary, blue secondary

That's.... yeah that's why I said turn it into a White card named Thalia. ,':/

[phonics]

I think that Black could get a Propaganda effect that paid life to attack, similar to Norn's Annex, but it would largely be in a set focussed around paying life for stuff.

Black has a propaganda card in Koskun Falls so it isnt impossible.

[negativeview]

The issue as I see it is that Legacy is eternal and the color pie has changed so much over the years.

Why is blue OP in Legacy/Vintage and pretty weak in Standard? It took them a while to nail down what blue does and doesn't do, so over the years blue has toyed with just about everything. In Legacy, that means that blue gets to do just about everything.

I think that Wizards is actively working on things like green disruption. From reading MaRo's blog I get the impression that he's convinced now that there are certain categories of effects that every color needs to some degree. It's why green is now getting creature removal (even if not Legacy-power-level) in the form of fighting. For a long time green was not supposed to get any creature removal at all, they're relenting on that. I predict they'll do the same for disruption. Greens version won't necessarily be super strong, but it'll get a form of disruption that is very green.

On another note, MaRo's been talking about how blue needs a combat-oriented evergreen ability. That will hopefully boost blue in Standard, but it also goes to show the issue with eternal formats. Giving blue a combat ability has zero chances of making blue weaker in Legacy and a non-zero chance of making it stronger. But they balance for Standard, so there you go.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

The issue as I see it is that Legacy is eternal and the color pie has changed so much over the years.

Why is blue OP in Legacy/Vintage and pretty weak in Standard? It took them a while to nail down what blue does and doesn't do, so over the years blue has toyed with just about everything. In Legacy, that means that blue gets to do just about everything.
Yep.



I think that Wizards is actively working on things like green disruption. From reading MaRo's blog I get the impression that he's convinced now that there are certain categories of effects that every color needs to some degree. It's why green is now getting creature removal (even if not Legacy-power-level) in the form of fighting. For a long time green was not supposed to get any creature removal at all, they're relenting on that. I predict they'll do the same for disruption. Greens version won't necessarily be super strong, but it'll get a form of disruption that is very green.
If I'd be to decide, I'd give green a cheap LD. And by "cheap" I mean cmc3 at the very most, maybe even conditional :g::g: one. But LD is a theme from past.
I'm glad they finally realized how silly some aspects of color pie were, especially how problematic is that one color has no access to creature removal. Quite bad in a game about creatures.



On another note, MaRo's been talking about how blue needs a combat-oriented evergreen ability. That will hopefully boost blue in Standard, but it also goes to show the issue with eternal formats. Giving blue a combat ability has zero chances of making blue weaker in Legacy and a non-zero chance of making it stronger. But they balance for Standard, so there you go.
What's combat ability? I guess that it means something more than a mere evasion, but if that's enough, then a combination of flying, unblockable, islandwalk and trample looks solid. These are four ways how to deal the damage through, so this should be enough for very much all possible creatures (flying faeries, unblockable illusions, islandwalking fish, trampling leviathans).

Then there's vigilance as seen on Serra Sphinx. (Nice illustration, btw.)
Something something blue magic of illusions... what about Uncle Istvan and friends, this time in blue? Gaseous Form is a precedent, right?
Switching of p/t was kinda blue.
Or Morphling.

[negativeview]

What's combat ability? I guess that it means something more than a mere evasion, but if that's enough, then a combination of flying, unblockable, islandwalk and trample looks solid. These are four ways how to deal the damage through, so this should be enough for very much all possible creatures (flying faeries, unblockable illusions, islandwalking fish, trampling leviathans).

Then there's vigilance as seen on Serra Sphinx. (Nice illustration, btw.)
Something something blue magic of illusions... what about Uncle Istvan and friends, this time in blue? Gaseous Form is a precedent, right?
Switching of p/t was kinda blue.
Or Morphling.

Tumblr search is so horrible. I have a hard time finding the original post, but it caused a bit of a stir so there's tons of follow-up questions. This one has the best summary of the issue that I've seen:

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/81605868780/blue-is-supposed-to-be-the-worst-at-creature

Basically, he wants a keyword that can be used in every set (like Trample and Flying is) that encourages blue to enter combat, doesn't avoid putting your creatures at risk (like evasion does to some degree) and feels blue (trample, first strike, etc. do not feel blue).

It's an interesting challenge. It might also hint at a future of Standard where blue isn't weak (right now blue is weak because counterspells have been getting nerfed and blue's early creatures are almost universally bad). But because Legacy is eternal it'll just give blue another chance to shore up a current weakness (that is, there's only like two or three good cheap blue creatures to choose from). I don't think that this problem can actually be solved in an eternal format.

[rufus]

Basically, he wants a keyword that can be used in every set (like Trample and Flying is) that encourages blue to enter combat, doesn't avoid putting your creatures at risk (like evasion does to some degree) and feels blue (trample, first strike, etc. do not feel blue).

Once upon a time that keyword was flying. Islandwalk would be pretty solid in legacy.

[negativeview]

Once upon a time that keyword was flying. Islandwalk would be pretty solid in legacy.

Both of those were brought up and don't qualify for the expanded version of what Maro's after (since it was spread out and clarified over many posts it's hard to explain it all at once, unfortunately).

He doesn't like evasion words being "the thing" because they functionally go around combat.

If you have flyers and the opponent doesn't, your opponent doesn't have opportunities to interact with your creatures via their creatures. First Strike, Double Strike, Deathtouch, Haste and Trample all allow there to be a natural sort of balance where their value depends a lot on what your opponent is playing. Evasion is the same evaluation no matter what your opponent is doing -- great on offense, mediocre on defense.

*walk is also specifically on the downturn because they're so swingy for Limited and (to a lesser degree) Standard. They're absolute bombs if your opponent is playing a certain color, and usually bad overcosted creatures otherwise. It's only in older formats where something like Islandwalk turns into an almost-always-relevant ability.

[FoolofaTook]

Tumblr search is so horrible. I have a hard time finding the original post, but it caused a bit of a stir so there's tons of follow-up questions. This one has the best summary of the issue that I've seen:

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/81605868780/blue-is-supposed-to-be-the-worst-at-creature

Basically, he wants a keyword that can be used in every set (like Trample and Flying is) that encourages blue to enter combat, doesn't avoid putting your creatures at risk (like evasion does to some degree) and feels blue (trample, first strike, etc. do not feel blue).

It's an interesting challenge. It might also hint at a future of Standard where blue isn't weak (right now blue is weak because counterspells have been getting nerfed and blue's early creatures are almost universally bad). But because Legacy is eternal it'll just give blue another chance to shore up a current weakness (that is, there's only like two or three good cheap blue creatures to choose from). I don't think that this problem can actually be solved in an eternal format.

Flying is what blue does. Islandwalk in the mirror. Mountainwalk has been a thing in the past. Protection from Red and Green (the opposing colors).

That WotC would think they need to add something to that suggests that they've just lost their grounding on the game. Bad things generally follow that kind of loss of grounding.

[negativeview]

Flying is what blue does. Islandwalk in the mirror. Mountainwalk has been a thing in the past. Protection from Red and Green (the opposing colors).

That WotC would think they need to add something to that suggests that they've just lost their grounding on the game. Bad things generally follow that kind of loss of grounding.

The problem (in Maro's eyes) is that none of those are distinctly Blue. Flying is something that it and white both do efficiently, and every color (except green) gets on a fairly regular basis (just not super efficiently). Protection from enemy colors is also something that every color does.

Landwalk is something Wizards doesn't want to do commonly in Standard, so it can't be blue's main mechanic. The mechanic needs to exist at common, like haste and trample and first strike do. Also, all the landwalks except Plains were a common thing at one point. The idea is that some creatures are good at sneaking through certain terrains, but almost nothing is good at sneaking through flat plains. That sort of thing hasn't been common in a very long time though. The more recent Islandwalks were more of a reflection of them not having that blue mechanic yet.

[FoolofaTook]

The problem (in Maro's eyes) is that none of those are distinctly Blue. Flying is something that it and white both do efficiently, and every color (except green) gets on a fairly regular basis (just not super efficiently). Protection from enemy colors is also something that every color does.

Landwalk is something Wizards doesn't want to do commonly in Standard, so it can't be blue's main mechanic. The mechanic needs to exist at common, like haste and trample and first strike do. Also, all the landwalks except Plains were a common thing at one point. The idea is that some creatures are good at sneaking through certain terrains, but almost nothing is good at sneaking through flat plains. That sort of thing hasn't been common in a very long time though. The more recent Islandwalks were more of a reflection of them not having that blue mechanic yet.

I'm just pointing out that the distinct way that blue breaks is when it gets access to ways to enter combat that are hard to interact with by the opponent.

Cheap easily replaceable flying birds carrying swords for instance or a living equipment that is hard to get rid of. Yes, neither of these were blue, but come on...

So Maro's response to the blue "problem" with entering combat in Standard is to suggest that blue needs some easy distinctive way to initiate combat without potentially getting screwed in the process and what I think is "now, why exactly does blue need that in Standard?" How many strategies have easy ways to initiate combat without getting potentially screwed in Standard?

I think Maro has blue on the mind and can't get it off his mind and so Magic becomes the blue game.

[negativeview]

I'm just pointing out that the distinct way that blue breaks is when it gets access to ways to enter combat that are hard to interact with by the opponent.

Cheap easily replaceable flying birds carrying swords for instance or a living equipment that is hard to get rid of. Yes, neither of these were blue, but come on...

So Maro's response to the blue "problem" with entering combat in Standard is to suggest that blue needs some easy distinctive way to initiate combat without potentially getting screwed in the process and what I think is "now, why exactly does blue need that in Standard?" How many strategies have easy ways to initiate combat without getting potentially screwed in Standard?

I think Maro has blue on the mind and can't get it off his mind and so Magic becomes the blue game.

You've got it potentially backwards, at least the way I'm reading Maro's comments. Maro wants blue's combat to be *more* risky. Flying, unblockable, landwalk all reduce the risk to your creatures. Maro wants to downplay those and give blue something more like first strike or haste or trample where the end result are creatures smashing into eachother instead of creatures sliding past eachother and not interacting.

Blue creatures in standard are *bad* and have been for a while. It's nothing like Legacy or Modern that has Delver.

[rufus]

You've got it potentially backwards, at least the way I'm reading Maro's comments. ....

IMO Maro talks out of both sides of his ... mouth.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

So, if Maro wants the blue creatures having a bit worse time on attack (or generally in combat), I gues a Istvan-like gaseous form ability isn't an answer.

This all stuff is rooted in the very beginnings of the game. They made several big design mistakes back in 91-94 that they hardly ever managed. And while most of them were really fine considering the flavour (like say blue's manipulation, green's inability to directly deal with creatures), they were a bad decisions overally.

Blue can't have any distinct ability other than flying?
Green cannot touch creatures? The magic of nature cannot undo its own creation?
One or two plainswalkers in the whole game? So there are no raiders on fast horses/wolves/kavus, no sleeping agents, nothing.

And then over the years this turned into a whole mess with different abilities all over the pie and the colors are hardly ever distinct anymore. This is not exactly bad, or at least it's the opposite of "green cannot touch creatures" so I should be glad of that.

It's interesting that after playing the game for nearly two decades, I cannot come up with any combat ability that's blue. All the flyings and shrouds come to my mind, but no real blue hand-to-hand thing. Maybe it's becasue blue lost/never had a focus on creatures, maybe it's because the evasions are so natural, idk. Even p/t switch is not what Maro wrote about.

Maybe a good start might be this: take a look at what creature types blue has and then lets imagine what would be their abilities. This works in other colors (sort of), as the knights have first strike, mammoths have banding and trample, etc.

Faeries could have first strike. Small flying pest showing out of nowhere to get into your ear.
Merfolk might have deathtouch. At least merfolk zombie. I mean: watermen.
Giants, are there any blue giants? What about something like rampage or bushido?
Humans and sphinxes are fine with vigilance, right? Human dudes gaurding their villages and sphinxes knowing of the danger beforehand.
Dragons should have provoke. What else would a blue dragon do than provoke into a reckless attack... then just omnomnom delicious goblin.
Illusions and crabs might have some "blocked dudes do not untap next turn", although this maybe isn't what Maro thought about.
Someting akin to flanking (either on block or on attack) might be good, except that it would simply ping, not decrease p/t. Imagine a blue wizard casting bolts before going into h2h.
Crocodiles are fine with deathtouch, right?

[LOLWut]

Bouncetouch*, Copytouch, permanent or temporary Turn to Frogtouch, Creature's Power and Defending Creatures' Power Is Switched for Damage.

*best

[rufus]

Bouncetouch*, Copytouch, permanent or temporary Turn to Frogtouch, Creature's Power and Defending Creatures' Power Is Switched for Damage.

*best

Hands of Binding touch, Chaos Harlequin touch, exchange control touch, shroudtouch, both players draw cards on combat damage...

[negativeview]

I think my personal favorite is looting touch, but I'm not sure if that can be used at common without becoming very very strong for draft.

[rufus]

I think my personal favorite is looting touch, but I'm not sure if that can be used at common without becoming very very strong for draft.

It could be loot on death.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Well, I'm not sure if those are the exact abilities Maro wrote about. They're blue like a smurf, no questions about, but I wouldn't call them exactly combat abilities. But yeah, maybe my perception of combat ability is flawed, it definitely needn't to be only first strike - "Into the fray, for Tsar and Motherland!" - or flanking, trample, rampgae, etc., but also something more subtle.

[tescrin]

First, I should mention that all that talk was in preparation of Prowess; which, if you keep up on his stuff at all, is likely going to be the default blue mechanic if people like it.

Aside from that, I had suggested the Gustcloak ability. I thought that it'd be neat for blue to have to attack through things but that it made sense it would have the forethought to retreat (so long as they fixed the wording so it wasn't also-vigilance.)

Going a step further; why is this thread talking about blue creature combat abilities?


I think green disruption could look like:
-Elderscale wurm. Imagine a 2/3 dude with an ability similar to that (but lifeloss, not just damage.) It'd be insurmountable by storm without interaction.
-a much smaller version of Ruric Thar (in GR) would work well (Eidolon in GR for non-creature.)

Green should be the "other" hatebear color (hate Ridgebacks IMO, 2/3s are totally green.) where its bears don't place restrictions on things, but rather change game in odd ways. Aegis of the Gods feels like a green effect to me if reworded to sound like you were being forced to target the creature.


I think if it were designed like the color pie in terms of three kinds of disruption you'd get something like:

Green/Red/White -> hatebears (this sort-of exists)
Black/Blue/White -> Stack interaction (this sort-of exists)
black/red/blue -> hand interaction (this exists)

Green gets the shortest straw here; but at least if they buff'd each of these elements to these recognizable wedges of interaction. If mana-denial weren't so prevalent in Stifle, Wasteland, Taxing Spells, Taxing bears, etc.. then RBG would be a perfect wedge for it.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Going a step further; why is this thread talking about blue creature combat abilities?
We sidestepped. :laugh:



I think green disruption could look like:
-Elderscale wurm. Imagine a 2/3 dude with an ability similar to that (but lifeloss, not just damage.) It'd be insurmountable by storm without interaction.
-a much smaller version of Ruric Thar (in GR) would work well (Eidolon in GR for non-creature.)

Green should be the "other" hatebear color (hate Ridgebacks IMO, 2/3s are totally green.) where its bears don't place restrictions on things, but rather change game in odd ways.
I like the two cards. And I like the idea of green being the next hatebear color. Oh, and I also like the idea of hate ridgebacks, 2/3 is sooo much better than 2/2, it cannot be killed by Forked Bolt or Disfigure, survives a duel with Confidant, doesn't die to Massacre or Pyroclasm and it's different than the ubiquitous 2/2 bears. Yeah, dem ridgebacks!

On the "change game in odd ways" part... hm, I once dreamt about the Marshland Guerillas (or w/e the name) a 1G bear with pro:blue and "black spells cost 1 more", but this is still taxing, it isn't anything odd.
Otoh, green, a color of manadudes, might have a Singularity Ridgeback, right?
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=2416&type=card
I know that ths ain't th most powerful thing in existance, especially considering the most used lands in Legacy, but imagine e.g. Miracles operating with this dude in play. Ok, so Plains add red, Islands green, fetches might find Volcanic to get blue... still not gonna sword the guy?

[Lemnear]

First, I should mention that all that talk was in preparation of Prowess; which, if you keep up on his stuff at all, is likely going to be the default blue mechanic if people like it.

Aside from that, I had suggested the Gustcloak ability. I thought that it'd be neat for blue to have to attack through things but that it made sense it would have the forethought to retreat (so long as they fixed the wording so it wasn't also-vigilance.)

Going a step further; why is this thread talking about blue creature combat abilities?


I think green disruption could look like:
-Elderscale wurm. Imagine a 2/3 dude with an ability similar to that (but lifeloss, not just damage.) It'd be insurmountable by storm without interaction.
-a much smaller version of Ruric Thar (in GR) would work well (Eidolon in GR for non-creature.)

Green should be the "other" hatebear color (hate Ridgebacks IMO, 2/3s are totally green.) where its bears don't place restrictions on things, but rather change game in odd ways. Aegis of the Gods feels like a green effect to me if reworded to sound like you were being forced to target the creature.


I think if it were designed like the color pie in terms of three kinds of disruption you'd get something like:

Green/Red/White -> hatebears (this sort-of exists)
Black/Blue/White -> Stack interaction (this sort-of exists)
black/red/blue -> hand interaction (this exists)

Green gets the shortest straw here; but at least if they buff'd each of these elements to these recognizable wedges of interaction. If mana-denial weren't so prevalent in Stifle, Wasteland, Taxing Spells, Taxing bears, etc.. then RBG would be a perfect wedge for it.

Isn't stuff like Gaddock Teeg, Ruric, Dosan, Vexing Shusher and especially ichneumon Druid a sign that green is already a secondary hatebear-color?

A small nicpick: Elderscale does not affect Tendrils

[ahg113]

Isn't stuff like Gaddock Teeg, Ruric, Dosan, Vexing Shusher and especially ichneumon Druid a sign that green is already a secondary hatebear-color?

A small nicpick: Elderscale does not affect Tendrils

No, for the majority. Teeg, is definitely a hatebear. With the normal metric being a creature is 2/2 (or 2/1 for Thalia, 3/1 for SotL) for 2 mana, none of the others work. Vexing Shusher isn't a hatebear, as it doesn't tax/prohibit an action as a static ability. All of the others cost more than 2, and thus get to the party late, diminishing the amount of "hate" to effect the game.

[Lemnear]

No, for the majority. Teeg, is definitely a hatebear. With the normal metric being a creature is 2/2 (or 2/1 for Thalia, 3/1 for SotL) for 2 mana, none of the others work. Vexing Shusher isn't a hatebear, as it doesn't tax/prohibit an action as a static ability. All of the others cost more than 2, and thus get to the party late, diminishing the amount of "hate" to effect the game.

You are seriously nickpicking about ichneumon not qualifying as mono-green hatebear because it is 1GG instead of 1X cost the hate"bears" are named after? By that logic not even Eidolo/Teegn qualifies as hatebear because of the double color.

Taxing/Prohibition is white-color territory. No need to rant that green isn't on par with white hatebears

[Bed Decks Palyer]

A small nicpick: Elderscale does not affect Tendrils



I think green disruption could look like:
-Elderscale wurm. Imagine a 2/3 dude with an ability similar to that (but lifeloss, not just damage.) It'd be insurmountable by storm without interaction.

[rufus]

I think that 'make stuff into creatures' would be a thematically good way for green disruption to work. Stuff like:

All non-basic lands are 1/1 elemental creatures in addition to their other types.
All non-creature artifacts are artifact creatures with power and toughness equal to their casting cost.
Counter target spell with casting cost X. That spell's controller puts an X/X green elemental creature token into play.

Shroud/hexproof effects are also green. It's not too hard to make that into a protection spell:

For the rest of the turn, all permanents, players, and spells have shroud.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I still think that Theros block could have brought many more Ench-Creatures with old themes, like Primal Order, Hall of Gemstone, Naked Singularity, Titania's Song or City of Solitude. Of course that these are brutal, and moreover one may argue that I'm too much concentrated on green.Yep, there should be other Enc-Cre in toher colors, maybe even once again thematically "timeshifted", just please no more Necropotence/Bargain 7/7 Dude.

[Lemnear]

I still think that Theros block could have brought many more Ench-Creatures with old themes, like Primal Order, Hall of Gemstone, Naked Singularity, Titania's Song or City of Solitude. Of course that these are brutal, and moreover one may argue that I'm too much concentrated on green.Yep, there should be other Enc-Cre in toher colors, maybe even once again thematically "timeshifted", just please no more Necropotence/Bargain 7/7 Dude.

I agree here. I would have loved to see old-themed enchantments returning on creatures like WotC tired with the Magus-Cycle. Sadly the whole Theros block, despite announced as an enchantment-block was a complete failure aside the Bestow-idea (execution was still poor)

[TsumiBand]

Yeah Bestow was a really unfortunate thing. It looked like a way to power up Auras, but really it was just in theme with the idea of the block, wherein things could be enchantments as well as whatever else. :/

I was really hoping they would've gone with "Splice onto Creature" or something, like where you pay a little extra upfront to cast the creature and it'd ETB with the Aura attached as part of the resolution. There's really only a few ways to make Auras stand out above Equipment now, especially with SFM in place to +1 any piece of equipment that's printed.

I guess this isn't Green disruption either, unless you can get your opponent monologuing and then you just run the clock - while also playing Green. There's your Green disruption strategy; the James Bond "tell me your wicked plan while I fiddle with my spy watch" routine.

[rufus]

Yeah Bestow was a really unfortunate thing. It looked like a way to power up Auras, but really it was just in theme with the idea of the block, wherein things could be enchantments as well as whatever else. :/

IMO bestow is a fine mechanic, but they didn't overpower the bestow cards the same way that they've been power creeping other creature stuff, and the bestow costs had to be huge or they'd be problematic in limited. As a mechanic it seems more sound that its contemporaries - constellation, heroic, monstrosity, and tribute.

If they'd made, say, a zombie with base stats 2/1, casting cost :b: and bestow cost :1::b:, it would be a solid card.

[TsumiBand]

IMO bestow is a fine mechanic, but they didn't overpower the bestow cards the same way that they've been power creeping other stuff, and the bestow costs had to be huge or they'd be problematic in limited. As a mechanic it seems more sound that its contemporaries - constellation, heroic, monstrosity, and tribute.

It certainly had potential, but yes largely the casting cost was highly restrictive. Also that whole "my card type changes after you pay my cost, so guess how I work with Aurelia's Fury and Glowrider" is a little wonky, but in most games it will not come up. In effect it was almost always "safer" to cast it as an Aura spell (since if they dick with its target it just becomes a dude, but if they don't you just Voltroned, congrats) so I suppose by definition that means it needs to get a little extra mana to prevent the choice from being as obvious as just always electing to cast it in Bestow mode.

[Lemnear]

IMO bestow is a fine mechanic, but they didn't overpower the bestow cards the same way that they've been power creeping other creature stuff, and the bestow costs had to be huge or they'd be problematic in limited. As a mechanic it seems more sound that its contemporaries - constellation, heroic, monstrosity, and tribute.

If they'd made, say, a zombie with base stats 2/1, casting cost :b: and bestow cost :1::b:, it would be a solid card.

One of the problems I jad with the execution aside the pure costs was the focus on P/T and combat abilities provided by bestow. I dislike the powerhouse design they decided to take, but would have favored something like a 0/1 creature for G with an attached Mirri's Guile (hello old enchantments!) providing a +1/+1 boost and guile-effect to an enchanted creature on the field for the same cost as casting it as a creature. Turn 2 4/4 Wild Nacatl with ongoing card-selection? Heck, we could have seen something like Phyrexian Arena or a bestow creature providing flying and a Moat-effect. Non was done. Sad

[Darkenslight]

It certainly had potential, but yes largely the casting cost was highly restrictive. Also that whole "my card type changes after you pay my cost, so guess how I work with Aurelia's Fury and Glowrider" is a little wonky, but in most games it will not come up. In effect it was almost always "safer" to cast it as an Aura spell (since if they dick with its target it just becomes a dude, but if they don't you just Voltroned, congrats) so I suppose by definition that means it needs to get a little extra mana to prevent the choice from being as obvious as just always electing to cast it in Bestow mode.

IT's a really simple IF....THEN...ELSE statement:

IF Cast == creature THEN Cast FOR Cost
ELSE
Cast FOR Cost+1
END

[H]

Well, Enchantments are still largely a pariah of types. Artifacts largely supplanted Enchantments for some reason. It really disappointed me when they made colored Artifacts, since it being a color was the one of the last two real definitive differences (the other being prevalence of triggered abilities).

It's no surprise then to me that they didn't push Bestow at all, it seems it was made strictly for Limited, since it has had almost no impact in Standard (I think only Boon Satyr saw play and that was probably the most pushed card with the mechanic, since it had Flash).

[ahg113]

You are seriously nickpicking about ichneumon not qualifying as mono-green hatebear because it is 1GG instead of 1X cost the hate"bears" are named after? By that logic not even Eidolo/Teegn qualifies as hatebear because of the double color.

More so because it's a 1/1 and therefore has almost no relevant blocking/attacking status as a creature. While Grizzly bears are more ferocious in name than action 10 unobstructed swings is a lot faster than 20 unobstructed swings.

RAWR v. rawr

[TsumiBand]

IT's a really simple IF....THEN...ELSE statement:

IF Cast == creature THEN Cast FOR Cost
ELSE
Cast FOR Cost+1
END

...kinda.

This is the best of my understanding (and I welcome a judge's correction if I am wrong) -- Bestow doesn't actually occur until you make the payment, and as such it goes on the stack as an Enchantment Creature. It just changes to an Aura after the cost is paid. This is why those example are counter-intuitive, because Aurelia's Fury doesn't care if it's an Aura once you pay for it, because it was technically a creature when you move it onto the stack. As for Glowrider, it can't raise a cost that's already been paid, and it wasn't a noncreature when the cost was paid.


702.102a Bestow represents two static abilities, one that functions while the card with bestow is on the stack and another that functions both while it’s on the stack and while it’s on the battlefield. “Bestow [cost]” means “You may cast this card by paying [cost] rather than its mana cost.” and “If you chose to pay this spell’s bestow cost, it becomes an Aura enchantment and gains enchant creature. These effects last until one of two things happens: this spell has an illegal target as it resolves or the permanent this spell becomes, becomes unattached.” Paying a card’s bestow cost follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g.

Rules 601.2e through g is clear on this; the cost is paid absolutely last in the process, after the spell is already on the stack and the targets, modes, etc. have been selected. The spell was an enchantment creature throughout that process -- it becomes an Aura after the fact, and is therefore unaffected.

Yeah, no, I'm a dumbass, it changes during .2b so it is definitely an Aura by the time its cost is determined. That's fine for Glowrider, but still there's madness regarding durdles like Aurelia's Fury.

[Lemnear]

More so because it's a 1/1 and therefore has almost no relevant blocking/attacking status as a creature. While Grizzly bears are more ferocious in name than action 10 unobstructed swings is a lot faster than 20 unobstructed swings.

RAWR v. rawr

So we are back to "why has color x no effects as strong as color y which has the effect in question as cornerstone of it's colorpie"?

:/

[tescrin]

IMO bestow is a fine mechanic, but they didn't overpower the bestow cards the same way that they've been power creeping other creature stuff, and the bestow costs had to be huge or they'd be problematic in limited.

The wording and the rulings on it are so clunky though.
-I cast this creature for it's bestow cost
-Essence scatter it bro
-Can't. Even though it's a creature it's actually not. So.. now it's an enchantment and not a creature. Get good.
-In response kill your guy. BANG 2-for-1'd
-JK it's a creature again LOL
-Then essence scatter it?
-Can't. It's not a creature until it resolves, even though it says it's a creature and even though it's an enchantment with no target. Newb-douche.

..c'mon wizards. Had it worked as you'd expect it to (the enchant fails, the dude goes to the bin; being it's frakkin' card types on the stack) it would actually be fine to cost it competitively, since it would have the drawback of being a 2-for-1 if you were greedy all the time while being that much weaker to removal in all colors

I understand they like to print nothing but cards that say "You can't possibly screw this up. Downsides are stupid. Here's a bag of money." but it feels so over the top when the amount of clunk that goes into something obvious is there specifically to make plans infallible.

Makin.
Me.
Grumbly.



@Lemnear's bears
I feel like picking green creatures for the examples is why I was saying it makes sense as "the other hatbears"; but that they need to be costed such that:
-MonoG or non-white can get them. Otherwise they're still just white.
-It's playable against what it's trying to hate.

A ruric effect on a 2-drop (maybe even a 3drop) is within flavor/pie, outside of white, and powerful enough to see play outside of just storm (and I mean the 2 damage variant of course, not 6 lol.) Similarly, a "fixed" Elderscale wurm-bear would be pretty usable; requiring UR Delver, for instance, to bolt it before killing you. It feels pretty white (comparable to worship) but I'm sure they can fix that.

I wouldn't even mind a UG hatbear honestly. "Sac->(hard) Counter target non-creature spell." Neato. Shardless playable counterspell? AW YEH.*
*I do know that Dimir charm and stuff exist.


Anyway, my point was more that Green gets hatbears if you splash white, but that just means that white gets them and green makes them GSZ-able/gooder.
I derived much entertainment from removing the 'e' from 'hate'.

[Lemnear]

I fear for the moment you have to decide between a red- or Whitesplash for a hatebear effect. Personally, I'm convinced the 2-mana Ruric is called Eidolon ;)

It's hard to give green hatebears if those are already in Red and White and Stack-interaction is black or blue. Green has no tool except Ichneumon and other Punishing-mechanics like the "Hidden" cards or Carpet of Flowers (which is criminally underplayed in non-blue decks)

[ahg113]

Some disruption idea- bring back land destruction.

If the "not fun" metric doesn't matter to game play, then there's no reason that axis shouldn't be reintroduced. Sinkholes at RR and GG.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Some disruption idea- bring back land destruction.

If the "not fun" metric doesn't matter to game play, then there's no reason that axis shouldn't be reintroduced. Sinkholes at RR and GG.

Exactly what I thought about, at least GG non-basic Stone Rain should be fine. I don't get the "ld not fun" argument, or better said: I do understand what's WotCs concern, and the casuals really dislike LD, but then there are lot of other themes that suck from casual PoV and they're still a part of Magic, say counterspells, even locks (like Stasis, CotV, Counterbalance). Fighting ld with manadudes/rocks or w/e shouldn't be that hard, and even casuals should understand that they're not going to move anywhere without mana/color fixation or ramp. Moreover, Life from the Loam, Sacred Ground, CoW or Enchantment: Lands=Indestructible exist, and ppl might play them, right?
But Wizards will do what will sell their packs, so I guess that cheap LD is a long lost concept.

edit:
I think that speaking of green (and pardon me that I'm so concentrated on color green, but other colors got cheap and solid disruption, be it LD, discard, removal, Blasts/Pillars, taxes, w/e), Wizards may explore a direction of a way more powerful game-altering hatebears.
While two-mana 2/2s and 2/3s are fine, it takes eternity to win with them, and those games often become boring and painful. Also, while U has CB lock, or UB has Storm and UR might use the ultrafast cantrips+burn tactic, there could be similar thing in green, a disruptive elements that do not take 60 minutes to win/lock. And no, I don't want Elves 2.0 that win on turn3 while disrupting the opponent, I'm thinking of something a bit different. Before I'll move on, a small note: yes, I know that these ideas would make many old creatures obsolete. Yes, and what? Nobody plays Erhnam anymore... :-(

So the idea is a game-altering dudes that can win on their own. So not the usual "assemble combo of three 2/2s, win from there", but rather "relevant dude with relevant ability and relevant p/t". One thing I really like is the type-shifted nostalgia creatures we've already discussed, like Primal Order Guy, Hall of Gemstone Dude, City of Solitude Insect, colorshifted Chaosphere Spider, Elephant Grass Elephant, Kudzu Kudzu, etc.
Feel free to come with your own "create crappy cards" ideas.

The other option is to explore unexplored. While green(white) has and should have troubles operating on stack, it's pretty powerful in stacking annoying permanents. I'm trying something with Root Maze, Enchantresses of all kind and some other stuff, and it's not exactly bad for an exactly bad deck. What I realized is that people are afraid to try high-manaspells (inb4 crapstorm: I know the theory of manacurving, thx). Yesterday I played against CB/Top and when we were finishing the game (an exhausting one, btw), the guy smiled and wrote he cannot bear anymore, as my curve is too high for him to disrupt me. Things like Genesis Wave, Terastodon and such, while most definitely EDH stuff, are pretty good once you get past the initial turns and get the Tress+Courser+Eidolon engine going on. Which reminds me that I should be playing more of an EDH, as the strange situations and weird interactions are very often a good source of ideas for more competitive decks.
That, and Root Maze. That card is funny. So much time walks...

[LeoCop 90]

Land destruction should absolutely be back. It gives a way to red/green to interact with unfair decks, it discourages people to build greedy decks, it is just fun to me. i subscribe sinkholes for green and red.

[TsumiBand]

Really if Green were to get a new kind of disruption that suited its MO it would need to be some way of leveraging its beef against other zones of the game. I think they tried this vis-a-vis non-interactive effects like indestructible and hexproof, but that doesn't quite work the same way; hexproof just prevents the opponent from playing spot removal. Basically Green disruption should be like Hulk's "madder > stronger" effect; the bigger (angrier) your creatures are, the more control you can exercise over areas of the game that you wouldn't necessarily be able to otherwise. Ferocious *kind* of does that, but it doesn't scale; it's a flat effect, and it shows up in R and U since it's all connected to Temur. I don't think you'd want it on a keyword ability anyway, it would want to be a thematic recurring idea within Green that the more massive your dudes are the greater your influence is.

Another weird example - Zangief used to be way too easily zoned, so they gave him tricks like a clothesline that lets him "go around" sweep kicks and that Green Palm thing where he just smacks the fuck out of a fireball for 0 damages. That's 'Green disruption' IMO; the ability to neutralize intellect and training with piss and vinegar.

Like if there were a halfway point between Fling and Mana Leak, I could see that being mono-green, but that's a stretch because we wouldn't want Green just having counterspells. Unless, I mean... unless we totally do want that. vOv

[rufus]

...

Like if there were a halfway point between Fling and Mana Leak, I could see that being mono-green, but that's a stretch because we wouldn't want Green just having counterspells. Unless, I mean... unless we totally do want that. vOv

I wonder if an anti-blue or anti-instant version of Lifeforce would see any eternal play.

[FoolofaTook]

What they should do with green is add card draw to it in a way that no other color can easily assimilate the mechanism or cards involved. Elvish Visionary was a good start in that direction.

One method of doing this would be having a keyworded mechanic that triggered on Devotion to green at 3 or above. If your Devotion to green is 3 or above draw a card at the beginning of your upkeep. Have the thing be a green snake creature that cost :g: to play and was a 1/* with the * = number of forests you have in play. It'd be a good draw mechanism in green creature lists. It would slide in alongside both Sylvan Library and Green Sun's Zenith. It'd be usable right away and also during the mid-game since it would have some defensive applications there.

You could also make a :g::g: snake that was a 2/*+1 with the * = number of forests you have in play. All other abilities the same. The 2 alongside each other would be drawing 2 cards a turn during upkeep and powering mad creature rushes if the opponent was light on removal, like the *ahem* blue shell tends to be.

[Darkenslight]

What they should do with green is add card draw to it in a way that no other color can easily assimilate the mechanism or cards involved. Elvish Visionary was a good start in that direction.

One method of doing this would be having a keyworded mechanic that triggered on Devotion to green at 3 or above. If your Devotion to green is 3 or above draw a card at the beginning of your upkeep. Have the thing be a green snake creature that cost :g: to play and was a 1/* with the * = number of forests you have in play. It'd be a good draw mechanism in green creature lists. It would slide in alongside both Sylvan Library and Green Sun's Zenith. It'd be usable right away and also during the mid-game since it would have some defensive applications there.

You could also make a :g::g: snake that was a 2/*+1 with the * = number of forests you have in play. All other abilities the same. The 2 alongside each other would be drawing 2 cards a turn during upkeep and powering mad creature rushes if the opponent was light on removal, like the *ahem* blue shell tends to be.

I think you want to be disruptive in a way that annoys, like with Aven Mindcensor. So I'd give Green Humble effects (lose all abilities and are X/X creatures, becomes a Forest land with no other abilities or P/T etc.)

For example a card like:

Preying Mantis :1: :g: :g:
Creature - Insect
Flash
Creatures with power 2 or less lose all abilities.
3/1

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I think you want to be disruptive in a way that annoys, like with Aven Mindcensor. So I'd give Green Humble effects (lose all abilities and are X/X creatures, becomes a Forest land with no other abilities or P/T etc.)

For example a card like:

Preying Mantis :1: :g: :g:
Creature - Insect
Flash
Creatures with power 2 or less lose all abilities.
3/1

Careful, young Jedi. You're in the Humility area and some dangers lie ahead.

[FoolofaTook]

I think you want to be disruptive in a way that annoys, like with Aven Mindcensor. So I'd give Green Humble effects (lose all abilities and are X/X creatures, becomes a Forest land with no other abilities or P/T etc.)

For example a card like:

Preying Mantis :1: :g: :g:
Creature - Insect
Flash
Creatures with power 2 or less lose all abilities.
3/1

Because green lists get less out of creatures with power 2 or less than any other type of lists with creatures?

If green gets disruption it shouldnt be global creature disruption. That makes no sense.

Now if you wanted to make that same card and change the wording to "Creatures that opponents control with power 2 or less lose all abilities..." However that's not in the green sphere at all. It's white.

[uncletiggy]

I wonder if an anti-blue or anti-instant version of Lifeforce would see any eternal play.

Autumns veil guttural response and avoid fate already exsist and dont see play.

[ahg113]

Autumns veil guttural response and avoid fate already exsist and dont see play.

For the heck of it, those are all instants, instead of an enchantment, so it's much more one and done, instead of board presence. It's an idea to make a Lifeforce double.

Based on Eidelon and P.Pillar, I'm guessing making it a GG bear it would actually see play, just being an enchantment might not be enough.

[Lemnear]

For the heck of it, those are all instants, instead of an enchantment, so it's much more one and done, instead of board presence. It's an idea to make a Lifeforce double.

Based on Eidelon and P.Pillar, I'm guessing making it a GG bear it would actually see play, just being an enchantment might not be enough.

I fear, even if you attach Lifeforce to a body, it's still too slow and bad to do anything against storm

[TsumiBand]

The wording and the rulings on it are so clunky though.
-I cast this creature for it's bestow cost
-Essence scatter it bro
-Can't. Even though it's a creature it's actually not. So.. now it's an enchantment and not a creature. Get good.
-In response kill your guy. BANG 2-for-1'd
-JK it's a creature again LOL
-Then essence scatter it?
-Can't. It's not a creature until it resolves, even though it says it's a creature and even though it's an enchantment with no target. Newb-douche.

..c'mon wizards. Had it worked as you'd expect it to (the enchant fails, the dude goes to the bin; being it's frakkin' card types on the stack) it would actually be fine to cost it competitively, since it would have the drawback of being a 2-for-1 if you were greedy all the time while being that much weaker to removal in all colors

I understand they like to print nothing but cards that say "You can't possibly screw this up. Downsides are stupid. Here's a bag of money." but it feels so over the top when the amount of clunk that goes into something obvious is there specifically to make plans infallible.

I totally get this, and I think that whole "get what you pay for, especially if it's a dumb Green thing" led to more ham-fisted over-correction for counter magic and removal (which led to the weird answers we see now in tuck removal in White, and random exile effects in Black, weird). Still though, the real problem with Auras is the presence of Equipment -- there are so few times when Equipment isn't just better. I mean what relevant Auras got played over the long-term in Magic; Rancor and... Rancor, right? That's a lousy effect to just start throwing on Auras, and it *still* whiffs when you get StP'd in response. So I applaud the effort, even though the payoff wasn't as high as I wish it'd been. I mean there's always Blouses if you're hard-up for playing Aura.dec, but that's only a thing because the creatures are untouchable by the opponent.

[rufus]

Autumns veil guttural response and avoid fate already exist and don't see play.

The n-for-1 potential is a big deal -- Counterbalance sees legacy play, Counterspell does not. (Autumns Veil and Avoid Fate are also terribly conditional.)


I fear, even if you attach Lifeforce to a body, it's still too slow and bad to do anything against storm.

Disruption doesn't just matter in the early turns.

[Lemnear]

Aren't the "early turn wins" the the biggest Problem for green and the reason we discuss the lack of interaction/disruption of the Stack in green? It doesn't matter if you can start disrupting black spells with a Lifeforce on legs turn 3+ if the biggest and most common black threats are DRS/Thoughtseize/Dark Ritual

[H]

The n-for-1 potential is a big deal -- Counterbalance sees legacy play, Counterspell does not. (Autumns Veil and Avoid Fate are also terribly conditional.)



Disruption doesn't just matter in the early turns.

Counterspell definitely does get played in Legacy.

However, I think it is just lazy to give Green more counterspells. Yes, every color gets bad countermagic, as in the old days the color pie was less strict. Just making Counterspell cost :g::g: is boring and lazy design though.

I think we should get more creative, the challenge here is to dive in to the flavor of Green and see how it could disrupt opponents within paradigm.

[Lemnear]

Counterspell definitely does get played in Legacy.

However, I think it is just lazy to give Green more counterspells. Yes, every color gets bad countermagic, as in the old days the color pie was less strict. Just making Counterspell cost :g::g: is boring and lazy design though.

I think we should get more creative, the challenge here is to dive in to the flavor of Green and see how it could disrupt opponents within paradigm.

The Problem with this noble idea is that it need to be done by the same people who haven't had any idea for black other than discard, creature removal and overcosted Demons with drawbacks for the last decade.

It's embarassing since black has a clear idea of "sacrifice for power", but cards which feature or are balanced with additional costs like life, lands, handcards, graveyard cards, permanents, etc. rarely see any print.

Instead we see a very black ability like Delve feeding Blue with two insane cards *facepalm*

[H]

Yeah. I agree, it was very disappointing that the two best Delve cards were both Blue, since I think Black and Green should really have gotten more from it (makes more sense flavor-wise in those colors).

Fingers crossed for the next set, but I have a lot of doubts. The problem we have with all these cards is that how they try to balance the colors in Standard (the only format they have anything like a clue about how to design for) is largely at odds with design for every "non-rotating" format.

[rufus]

...
I think we should get more creative, the challenge here is to dive in to the flavor of Green and see how it could disrupt opponents within paradigm.

That would require a good sense of what the 'green flavor' is.

Turning stuff into creatures as disruption makes sense:
* Target spell controlled by an opponent. That spell's controller puts X 1/1 creature tokens into play, where X is the spell's mana cost.
* All non-basic lands are 1/1 creatures
* All non-creature artifacts are artifact creatures with power and toughness equal to their casting cost.

Turning stuff into land could work too:
* Target player reveals his hand. You choose a card from it. Exile that card. The target player may search his or her library for a land card, reveal that card, shuffle his or her library, and put the revealed card on top of it.
* Counter target spell. Each player may search his or her library for a basic land cards and put it into play tapped. Any player that searched his or her library this way shuffles it.

[Lemnear]

Turning stuff into land could work too:

* Target player reveals his hand. You choose a card from it. Exile that card. The target player may search his or her library for a land card, reveal that card, shuffle his or her library, and put the revealed card on top of it.
* Counter target spell. Each player may search his or her library for a basic land cards and put it into play tapped. Any player that searched his or her library this way shuffles it.

Horrible suggestions. The first is a green Thoughtseize w/o lifeloss without real drawback unless you play this in a tempo-shell and the second is basically a Mana Drain concept (counter + managain).

The only thing that would make sense is to turn spells into creatures or Lands on a base of carddisadvantage like Swan Song

[H]

Horrible suggestions. The first is a green Thoughtseize w/o lifeloss without real drawback unless you play this in a tempo-shell and the second is basically a Mana Drain concept (counter + managain).

The only thing that would make sense is to turn spells into creatures or Lands on a base of carddisadvantage like Swan Song

I'd love to see an aggressively costed Green Karn, Silver Golem. It makes sense, given Titania's Song. Something like Scavenging Ooze maybe.

[Lemnear]

I'd love to see an aggressively costed Green Karn, Silver Golem. It makes sense, given Titania's Song. Something like Scavenging Ooze maybe.

Isn't Titania basically a green Karn for Lands rather than artifacts?

[H]

Isn't Titania basically a green Karn for Lands rather than artifacts?

You mean the new Titania? I.E. Titania, Protector of Argoth or Titania's Song? I'm confused by what you mean.

[Fatal]

Playable disruption in Green:

Turn in to Profit
GG
Instant
Counter target non-creature spell unless its controller pay 3.
Add GGG to in your next main phase.

1. Conditional - not so great as Mana drain - fit in not harming creatures
2. Hard to splash - don't become new blue toy
3. Ramp but not so much enough to GSZ a thread but not broken as Mana Drain countering FoWs..

[Lemnear]

You mean the new Titania? I.E. Titania, Protector of Argoth or Titania's Song? I'm confused by what you mean.

Obviously the new Commander-Pack Titania


Playable disruption in Green:

Turn in to Profit
GG
Instant
Counter target non-creature spell unless its controller pay 3.
Add GGG to in your next main phase.

1. Conditional - not so great as Mana drain - fit in not harming creatures
2. Hard to splash - don't become new blue toy
3. Ramp but not so much enough to GSZ a thread but not broken as Mana Drain countering FoWs..

I have troubles to imagine a green deck which wants to leave GG open just to turn over into aggressiveness to profit from 5+ mana during the next turn. If I ignore that spell-based mana acceleration in now part of the red color pie and would try to tune this spell into being less restrictive, it would read like

Turn in to Profit - second take
G
Instant
Counter target non-creature spell unless its controller pays 1
Add G to in your next main phase.

[TsumiBand]

If you're really sold on printing a Green counterspell, IMO it still needs to borrow against Green's might-makes-right strategy.
----
Counterbroccoli :g::g:
Instant

As an additional cost to cast -this-, tap all creatures you control.

Counter target noncreature spell if its converted mana cost is less than the combined power of the creatures tapped to cast -this-.
----

The problem will always be that it will "have to" be bad as compared to genuine Blue counters, precisely because it is not only outside Green's regular bag of tricks but because color bleed is A Bad Thing; Blue and Black teach us this time and again.

If there were a way to aggressively cost Plow Under, I think that's probably the better suggestion I've seen on the thread from whoever-it-was that suggested it. As long as you're in the color of mana and land manipulation, it would follow that you get to actively dick with the opponent's land and mana as well.
----
Stick's Plow Under :1: :g: :g: :x:
Sorcery

Spend only green mana on X.

Return X plus one target lands to the top of their owner's library. You gain 1 life for each land returned this way.
"I'll mow everyone's yard, I don't give a fuck." Kamahl, Employee-of-the-Month at John Deere
----

Maybe this sidesteps the "market research says LD = baaaad" thing, not sure. Plow Under is a killer effect and if it cost something playable, would be an interesting way to force Blue mages to blow their shufflers/topdeck spells at inopportune times.

[phonics]

The Problem with this noble idea is that it need to be done by the same people who haven't had any idea for black other than discard, creature removal and overcosted Demons with drawbacks for the last decade.

It's embarassing since black has a clear idea of "sacrifice for power", but cards which feature or are balanced with additional costs like life, lands, handcards, graveyard cards, permanents, etc. rarely see any print.

Instead we see a very black ability like Delve feeding Blue with two insane cards *facepalm*

This is the most frustrating thing of it all, the fact that the game is capable of so many amazing and complex mechanics but r&d seem completely unwilling to do any kind of experimentation. On top of that they still release incredibly strong cards that more often than not are blue.

[Barook]

Fuck Maro and his twisted ideas about the color pie, aka blue gets eveything - why not give green back its Stifle ability, like Bind and Ouphes? Except extend it to triggered abilities as well.

I'm thinking about something like this:


Bound by Roots :1::g:
Instant
You may exile a green card from your hand rather than pay Bound by Roots' mana cost.
Counter target activated or triggered nonland ability. (Mana abilities can’t be targeted.)
I added the nonland clause because 0 mana LD on fetchlands while being able to hit land drops seems kinda silly, even with the card disadvantage. Could probably be a bit more refined, but you get the idea. Losing up to two cards for doing not that much might be a bit weak, so another potential, less splashable variant, more similiar to Bind:


Bound by Roots :g::g:
Instant
You may exile a green card from your hand rather than pay Bound by Roots' mana cost.
Counter target activated or triggered nonland ability. (Mana abilities can’t be targeted.)
Draw a card.

Other than that, give green more hatebears. Green is about creatures, so their hate should be mainly creature-related as well.


If you're really sold on printing a Green counterspell, IMO it still needs to borrow against Green's might-makes-right strategy.
----
Counterbroccoli :g::g:
Instant

As an additional cost to cast -this-, tap all creatures you control.

Counter target noncreature spell if its converted mana cost is less than the combined power of the creatures tapped to cast -this-.
How about making it an X spell and giving it Convoke? Seems way more elegant that way.

[FoolofaTook]

@Barook

How about this?

Bound by Roots :g::g:
Instant - Treefolk Tribal

Counter target activated or triggered nonland ability. (Mana abilities can't be targeted.)
Kicker exile a green card from your hand and/or exile a basic forest from your hand. (You may exile a green card and/or a basic forest from your hand as you play this spell.)
If Bound by Roots was kicked by exiling a green card from your hand counter any activated or triggered ability. (Mana abilities can't be targeted.) Draw a card.
If Bound by Roots was kicked by exiling a basic forest from your hand put a 2/3 green Treefolk creature token with Forestwalk into play.

[Gheizen64]

Why the fuck would u want to give stack-based disruption to green when it is the permanent color.

[Lemnear]

Indeed. Green needs a punisher-mechanic like:

Krosan Swiftclub - G
Human Monk

trample, Whenever an opponent casts a blue, black, red or White Spell, put a +1/+1 counter on Swiftclub.

1/2

"I celibate because I don't give a fuck!"

[TsumiBand]

How about making it an X spell and giving it Convoke? Seems way more elegant that way.

Apart from me not feeling like Green should have access to counterspells... because the theme I was playing with in that post was the idea that board presence matters; more to the point, that the size of your creatures or their combined power is the thing that enables the Green player to resist spells. As an X spell, it doesn't convey that as well. Additionally, it's not exactly Green's strong suit, so you have to tap all your creatures because it's fucking hard to "fight target spell" so it's a team effort. An X spell just ties it to mana production more strongly than creature power.

If fight lent itself to counterspells then obviously "target creature you control fights target noncreature spell" would be the ideal Green "counterspell", if it were even right to print such a thing. I don't think it is, though.

[rufus]

...

"I celibate because I don't give a fuck!"

:laugh:

[Lemnear]

:laugh:

It's a Monk ... what do you expect ;P

Maybe one for the quote-thread...

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

I feel like Swan Song should have been a green card.

[rufus]

Indeed. Green needs a punisher-mechanic like:
...


Alternatively:
Krosan Ascetic
:g:
trample, shroud
Whenever you draw a card or search your library, remove a +1/+1 counter from Krosan Ascetic.
Whenever an opponent draws a card or searches his or her library put a +1/+1 counter on Krosan Ascetic.
1/2

[FoolofaTook]

Why the fuck would u want to give stack-based disruption to green when it is the permanent color.

Green already has stack-based disruption and has had it from the beginning of Magic. Lifeforce in Alpha, Avoid Fate and Rust in Legends, Brown Ouphe in Ice Age, Bind in Invasion, Insist in Torment, Ouphe Vandals in Fifth Dawn, Autumn's Veil in M11 and M12, etc.

The real question is why there is a new usable counter spell of some sort printed in almost every set and yet there is green disruption printed only once in a blue moon.

[wonderPreaux]

Green already has stack-based disruption and has had it from the beginning of Magic. Lifeforce in Alpha, Avoid Fate and Rust in Legends, Brown Ouphe in Ice Age, Bind in Invasion, Insist in Torment, Ouphe Vandals in Fifth Dawn, Autumn's Veil in M11 and M12, etc.

The real question is why there is a new usable counter spell of some sort printed in almost every set and yet there is green disruption printed only once in a blue moon.
http://www.ugmadness.net/comics/2006-04-21.jpg