[Deck] Turbo Depths

[Negator77']

Yeah, probably didn't phrase that in the most diplomatic way. I guess what I'm getting at is that I'm running an over 73% win rate in the comp. league (N>150 matches) and really don't see anything "not working," specifically when it comes to situational A or B card scenarios. My number one priority atm is to find a game 2/3 plan vs SnT that isn't just "mull to turn 2 lage and pray"

Gotcha. League's have been soft to depths since.... well, they introduced them. Online players love Delver and blue in general which are ripe pickings for Depths. Think of the meta %'s of decks like delver or 4c pile online and until somewhat recently the shortage of DnT (and Lands to a lesser extent). My win rate since leagues started (including challenges) was very high with the GBu version and I'd image DNSolver (and others with a lot of experience with the deck) were very high with the BG version too.

How are you losing to SnT? Any odd scenarios, or just a mix of the normal stuff, moon and whatnot?

[jdmdave]

Typically turn 1 blood moon or fast sneak attack getting around karakas.

[DNSolver]

Discard can help against Sneak and Show. I have been running Sylvan Libraries against them too, for the purpose of digging for more discard.

Also, I just came back from one of the most amazing weeklies I've ever had. Went 4-1 beating UWR control (no Miracles), Lands, BR Reanimator, and Red Aluren. Lost to Bant Stoneblade/Knight. BR Reanimator and Aluren I won pretty convincingly as expected. All others were close and would probably have been completely hopeless if not for Sylvan Safekeeper - it won me many games tonight. It's been great, but tonight especially it was an all-star 10/10 card. Glad to have it in the maindeck.

Anyway, the amazing part was the last match of the night, the Lands matchup:

G1 - I get destroyed by early Ghost Quarter + Loam lock after I used Bojuka Bog on the first Loam.

G2 - I start out with a Map, then discard spell seeing Crop Rot x3, Gamble, Loam, Wasteland, Ghost Quarter? when opponent has Taiga and Ghost Quarter up. I am feeling pretty miserable at this point. My board is Urborg, Bayou, Depths, Needle on Wasteland, and my hand is 2nd Urborg, Steppe, Surgical, Elvish Spirit Guide? or something. I finally realize I have Surgical in my hand. I take one Crop Rot and Surgical targeting Crop Rot, to which opponent Crop Rots Taiga for fetch, fetches Forest, Crop Rots Forest for Grove (fills graveyard for Loam). Next turn I play Spirit Guide, then Safekeeper and start beating down. When opponent is at around 14 life I realize that creature beatdown is the way to go, and start searching for and playing as many lands as possible. Opponent has Gamble'd for Punishing Fire and is assembling land drops and Groves as I am sacrificing lands to protect my dudes, but eventually (through the help of 2nd Safekeeper too) I kill her through 4 damage a turn because she can't find one of her two Trackers to block... SUCH a cool game! 10/10 experience, and there is still one game left to play!

G3 - Slow start from opponent as we're both on 6 cards - she has Taiga ->Needle on Stage, Ghost Quarter, then Karakas -> Tracker (tapped out). I had kept Steppe, Stage, Library, Thoughtseize, Crop Rot, something. I drew Hexmage on turn 1, played Needle on Wasteland, drew Bayou on turn 2, and played Library. So now I'm untapping against a Tracker. Sylvan Library finds Urborg, Needle, Verdant. I pay 8 in excitement (only needed 4), slam Urborg, tap Stage for Needle on Karakas, Crop Rotate Stage for Depths, play Hexmage, make a 20/20. Opponent doesn't have enough mana to Gamble for Krosan Grip to kill Needle AND use Karakas this turn, so I GET THERE.

Very tasty match, especially G2. Take the time to read through that text blob in G2 if you can.

[filln]

Possible new toy to replace Ground Seal for those running it?

https://i.redd.it/aki2l6lnbs701.png

[Kagemusha]

I don’t particularly care much for the card yet, but mirage mirror is a great card to put in off an opponent’s show and tell, cause it they put in an Emrakul, you just copy it and kill them on your next turn. Also if your opponent brings in a needle, they will never name Mirror. Something to think about.

[jdmdave]

Yeah, that card directly replaces the 2 ground seals in the board.

[DNSolver]

Doesn't draw a card on entering - significantly worse than Ground Seal IMO. I don't play Ground Seal though.

[caseyc]

Doesn't draw a card on entering - significantly worse than Ground Seal IMO. I don't play Ground Seal though.

As a Ground Seal proponent, I may try this card out. However--here is my initial theoretical assessment:

Advantages of this card over Ground Seal: 1 mana versus 2, colorless mana instead of Green (usually doesn't matter, but might be more important for Storm decks who don't really want to be playing Green), has the option to blow up opponent's graveyard in addition to the Ground Seal effect.

Disadvantages: doesn't cantrip on ETB (which really matters, as this effect makes Ground Seal a pretty risk-free SB card because it replaces itself), in order to gain the advantage of the sacrifice effect, you need to hold up 4(!) mana. The decks you really want that effect against are Reanimator, Dredge, and maybe Storm. Holding up 4 mana against those decks is totally unreasonable.

So, in summary, while I like the additional effect of being able to blow up a GY, it costing 4 mana makes it unreasonable in the very matchups you would want that kind of additional effect. Hence, drawing on ETB with Ground Seal seems to outweigh the advantages of this alternative card, despite the additional sacrifice effect on it. I think I'd play either Ground Seal or Relic of Progenitus over this.

[tilzinger]

Discuss.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DStlpqrU8AA9c91.png

[DNSolver]

This is worse than Blood Moon against us because we can still cast Decay on it after it has resolved - it doesn't shut off our mana like Blood Moon, which requires us to have basics, fast mana, or have lands untapped to float mana in response.

[Claymore]

More likely to turn on Abrupt Decays as combo enablers as long as you can get your mana lands out first. Playing a Depths into a Sun gives you no ice counters.

[PeterSouth]

I see this as an offensive weapon for poor paper players like myself. Makes some gold lands like city of brass and forbidden orchard cool. Hates on rich fetchland players. Shuts off lots of D&T stuff like wasteland, rishadan, karakas, cavern, & others like azcantra, horizon canopy, so I can maybe put in place of pithing needle. Lage Enabler that just requires some already great abrupt decays or rotate into depths on their kill spell. The biggest downside I see is losing Urborg. I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

[DNSolver]

^ Nice troll. Read the card again if not trolling.

[jdmdave]

This card is much worse against us than blood moon for reasons solver has stated. Please play this vs us G2/G3.

What are your guys thoughts on spheres in an open GP meta? I'm 71/75 nailed down for the GP, but constantly going back and forth on sphere/mindbreak/bobs etc

[Hopo]

This card is much worse against us than blood moon for reasons solver has stated. Please play this vs us G2/G3.

What are your guys thoughts on spheres in an open GP meta? I'm 71/75 nailed down for the GP, but constantly going back and forth on sphere/mindbreak/bobs etc

Related to this: are Spheres the reason why there is no room for Rite of Consumption anymore?

[DNSolver]

Rite of Consumption was largely tech to beat Miracles when combined with Boseiju. You can still play it vs D+T, 4c Loam, Lands, etc. but Sylvan Safekeeper is effective enough vs Loam and Lands, and Safekeeper has uses in other matchups as edict fodder and just chump blocking. I don't think you would want Rite and Safekeeper as they don't complement each other.

I explained the Sphere/Trap conundrum a page or two ago in a rant. Pick a side that makes sense to you after you argue it out with yourself, and play that. There are pros/cons to both, but I like Trap personally because in other unfair matchups (Belcher and friends) Trap wrecks them.

[caseyc]

Related to this: are Spheres the reason why there is no room for Rite of Consumption anymore?

@jdmdave In my experience (I only really play paper), Storm is not a huge concern. Firstly because it is just not very well represented in paper. Second, our matchup without dedicated hate is still pretty decent. We have a fast clock and loads of discard. Yes Storm is a bit of a 50/50 matchup without lots of SB hate, but with some skill and mulling properly, it can fall in our favor more often than not. I'd rather focus my SB attention on more well-represented matchups that are 50/50 or unfavorable.

@Hopo I still play Rite of Consumption (and Boseiju) and find it great. In fact, I didn't play it prior to the Top ban because I played 4x Chalice instead. As I've said before, it just shores up our 3 toughest matchups: Miracles, DnT, and Lands. And has application in other matchups. Because I play SB Rite, I only play 2 maindeck Sylvan Safekeepers as more feels like overkill post-board. If you want my list I can post it again.

Also, that new Blood Sun card looks interesting but not very problematic for us.

[Claymore]

Blood Sun does not affect Urborg, all lands will be swamps. Because Layers.

[huggernaut]

If you're on the sphere plan, are you guys bringing them in against show and tell?

What are you boarding out in that matchup?

[ccab]

What's better? Factory or dryad arbor?

[DNSolver]

Not bringing in spheres or Traps vs Show and Tell.

Dryad Arbor is better than factory IMO. You're not looking to block a lot of creatures and making tons of factories to attack with isn't realistically going to happen. Fetching Arbor with Verdant Catacombs is good.

[perian]

I want to contribute at little bit to the stock list discussion. Short intro. I play DD for about 2-3 years now. Only play paper. Only play Legacy. Approximately 2 times per month. FNMs in our local store and small national tournaments (4-5 rd with cut to T8). Quite successful in the last year. Lots of T8 finishes and also some wins.

My list differs mostly in playing DRS and additional fetchlands and reducing the fast mana for it. Here is one reference:
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=25534&iddeck=200349

I noticed that 4 DRS is too much, but 3 feels very good. Fast mana should be at least 3-4 (I prefer ESG). You will also find some pet cards like Pernicious Deed in the 75.

I really like the many things DRS can do for this deck (mana ramp, drain, graveyard controle, clock together with hexmage, block, sac for edict etc.). There are also some cool things like to protect the combo from Surgical Extraction and so on. But I also know that it turns on some cards from the opponent that are otherwise dead.

Maybe it just fits to my style of play. What do you think about it?

[ClimbGneiss]

Hello All:

I know that for some of you this deck may be appealing because it is both very competitive and somewhat affordable, but, on MTGO, I have been running a single Tabernacle out of my sideboard and it has been very successful thus far. Thoughts? I'll provide a couple of examples where it's paid off: vs Empty the Warrens it's blown out my opponents twice. vs Death and Taxes, you could reasonably keep a slow Pithing Needle heavy hand and drop a Tabernacle into play at some point to slow down your opponent. I'm not tied to the card, but I think it opens up windows in certain scenarios where we wouldn't normally be able to win.

Also, while I think that Surgical Extraction is the better overall option, would Grafdiggers' Cage be a somewhat suitable alternative. I own both in paper, but neither on MTGO and based on the matchups I am seeing, I go back and forth about which I want more. I guess that Surgical can be used in either sort of matchup where Grafdiggers Cage is either golden or worthless, but it's just something that I think it worth considering.

[huggernaut]

6-2 day 1 of GP SC on a close to stock list.

Will write up some info if people are interested.

[DNSolver]

Surgical is better than Cage vs Lands. Hard to win without good access to it. Surgical is also probably necessary vs Reanimator. I remember I used to sideboard 4 Surgicals. Those were the days. Nowadays two is sufficient.

Would love to hear a brief tournament report. Two losses?

[solnox]

I've played Dank Depths to a respectable 6-1 record in legacy side events beat 2x Sneak, Nyx Fit, Burn, Mirror, Bant Blade. The one loss was to RG lands where I didnt see a needle in the top 30 cards.

[huggernaut]

I've played Dank Depths to a respectable 6-1 record in legacy side events beat 2x Sneak, Nyx Fit, Burn, Mirror, Bant Blade. The one loss was to RG lands where I didnt see a needle in the top 30 cards.

What’s your sideboard plan vs sneak? I’ve been struggling there lately...but I guess there’s no shame in losing to Huey.

[solnox]

-1 Bog, -3 Sylvan Safekeeper, -1 Sylvan Library, +2 Abrupt Decay, +1 Krosan Grip. +2 Surgical Extraction is my usual boards. This is probably wrong but if I win game 1, I dont bring in Decay and bring in spheres and dont respect moon. If I get mooned, Ill bring the decays in for G3.

[jdmdave]

https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpsc18/grand-prix-santa-clara-finals-decklists-2018-01-07

Which one of you guys did this :)

Great job!

My sneak plan is also similar. Barring tricks with show in telling the combo (i.e. hiding a vamp with depths in play), I try to play the control route with needle on sneak and tseize/duresss + surgical the show.

[caseyc]

https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpsc18/grand-prix-santa-clara-finals-decklists-2018-01-07

Which one of you guys did this :)

Great job!

My sneak plan is also similar. Barring tricks with show in telling the combo (i.e. hiding a vamp with depths in play), I try to play the control route with needle on sneak and tseize/duresss + surgical the show.

Yeah another major finish for Turbo Depths! I like the list, though I'd do the SB a little different :-)

There was also a Depths Reanimator deck that did really well, but I think that deck is kinda dumb.

While we're on the topic of hot garbage, there's this: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=17982&d=311547&f=LE

I've tried it out a little. It's actually okay....but not ultimately what you want to be doing with your life :-)

[solnox]

The guy who piloted it was on my friend's team. He just recently picked up the deck i think.

Not sure I like the 5th fetch

[criticalslay]

Hey, this is Dan, guy from GP Santa Clara. Never posted here but I figured now would be a good time. As you noted I’m relatively new with the deck. Added the fifth fetch because I felt like I was having some mana problems after running the deck through 7-8 leagues on Modo. It’s felt good to me, but I’m obviously a relative newcomer. Curious to hear other thoughts on the list.

[Ultrab77]

Yeah another major finish for Turbo Depths! I like the list, though I'd do the SB a little different :-)

There was also a Depths Reanimator deck that did really well, but I think that deck is kinda dumb.

While we're on the topic of hot garbage, there's this: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=17982&d=311547&f=LE

I've tried it out a little. It's actually okay....but not ultimately what you want to be doing with your life :-)

Do you have a link to the Reanimator Depths list?

[caseyc]

Hey, this is Dan, guy from GP Santa Clara. Never posted here but I figured now would be a good time. As you noted I’m relatively new with the deck. Added the fifth fetch because I felt like I was having some mana problems after running the deck through 7-8 leagues on Modo. It’s felt good to me, but I’m obviously a relative newcomer. Curious to hear other thoughts on the list.

Hey Dan-- great job representing Turbo Depths at GP SC! Could you do a write up of your matches at some point? I'm curious what you ran up against and how it went.

Thoughts on the list:

I like the split of Sylvan Libraries 1x main 1x sb. I used to do that and have been thinking about going back to it.

I too have thought about the 5th fetch--I agree the manabase is pretty sketchy, especially in matchups where you board out fast mana. Did it ever feel like too many mana sources?

Why no expedition map?

I am not a fan of Spheres in paper meta. Did you play any Storm? The only other matchup it seems actually good is maybe Omnitell, which is rare to see. I don't necessarily think it's even good against Sneak n Show, though I suppose it does something. I'd rather use those slots for Rite of Consumption :-)

Did the Mishra's Factory come in handy? I used to run it and it never quite seemed worth it, and I ended up deciding it was unnecessary. But some people like that or Dryad Arbor.

How was Choke? It seems a bit "control-y" for Turbo Depths.

I used to run the 4th needle in the board then decided to forgo it eventually but have recently thought about putting it back in. How was it?

If you're interested I can post my current list. It's relatively stock but has some different choices, especially SB, just based on my testing and experience.

Congrats on your finish!

[DNSolver]

An interesting take on Dark Depths top 8'd the MKM series Frankfurt tournament this weekend as well.

http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-frankfurt-2018-legacy/

[criticalslay]

Hey Dan-- great job representing Turbo Depths at GP SC! Could you do a write up of your matches at some point? I'm curious what you ran up against and how it went.

Thoughts on the list:

I like the split of Sylvan Libraries 1x main 1x sb. I used to do that and have been thinking about going back to it.

I too have thought about the 5th fetch--I agree the manabase is pretty sketchy, especially in matchups where you board out fast mana. Did it ever feel like too many mana sources?

Why no expedition map?

I am not a fan of Spheres in paper meta. Did you play any Storm? The only other matchup it seems actually good is maybe Omnitell, which is rare to see. I don't necessarily think it's even good against Sneak n Show, though I suppose it does something. I'd rather use those slots for Rite of Consumption :-)

Did the Mishra's Factory come in handy? I used to run it and it never quite seemed worth it, and I ended up deciding it was unnecessary. But some people like that or Dryad Arbor.

How was Choke? It seems a bit "control-y" for Turbo Depths.

I used to run the 4th needle in the board then decided to forgo it eventually but have recently thought about putting it back in. How was it?

If you're interested I can post my current list. It's relatively stock but has some different choices, especially SB, just based on my testing and experience.

Congrats on your finish!


Thanks!

I’ll try to do a write up to the best of my ability at some point, no promises in the quality, haha.

Not sure about the libray split, literally the first list I picked up had this split and it’s always felt good so I’ve never changed it.

Regarding the extra fetch, I’ve never felt like I have too much mana. This deck uses its mana very well. There are matchups where I will SB our mana sources, but I don’t feel at all like my list has too much.

Expedition Map just felt too slow/clunky to me whenever I drew it while testing. Into the North is obviously less versatile, but I found that the spots where the ramp/cost benefit outweighed the “any land” benefit were more common. There are turns where Into the North is literally the best draw in your entire deck. It would take a lot of convincing for me to play map again.

I never brought in the spheres. I won’t be using them going forward in blind paper fields unless the meta shifts radically.

Factory won me exactly one match. Good enough for me.

Same with Choke - this card won me a game (and in turn, round) that no other card could have. I’ve found it’s extremely good against Miracles because the games go so long - if they’re Choked, rebuilding several times per game isn’t that tough. Against delver, ramping out a a Choke can also be an easy way to mise a free win. I’d always want to board one in against them if I had it. I was happy with the card.

If anything, for this tournament I would have wanted a fifth needle/spyglass. I played Lands four (maybe five?) times, and DnT once. No way I’m dropping the fourth needle.

Happy to see your list, more dialogue is good. FYI, if you wanna see me beat Jacob Wilson on camera, it’s at 3:24 at the following link:

https://m.twitch.tv/videos/216345278

:P

Cheers!

[caseyc]

Thanks!

I’ll try to do a write up to the best of my ability at some point, no promises in the quality, haha.

Not sure about the libray split, literally the first list I picked up had this split and it’s always felt good so I’ve never changed it.

Regarding the extra fetch, I’ve never felt like I have too much mana. This deck uses its mana very well. There are matchups where I will SB our mana sources, but I don’t feel at all like my list has too much.

Expedition Map just felt too slow/clunky to me whenever I drew it while testing. Into the North is obviously less versatile, but I found that the spots where the ramp/cost benefit outweighed the “any land” benefit were more common. There are turns where Into the North is literally the best draw in your entire deck. It would take a lot of convincing for me to play map again.

I never brought in the spheres. I won’t be using them going forward in blind paper fields unless the meta shifts radically.

Factory won me exactly one match. Good enough for me.

Same with Choke - this card won me a game (and in turn, round) that no other card could have. I’ve found it’s extremely good against Miracles because the games go so long - if they’re Choked, rebuilding several times per game isn’t that tough. Against delver, ramping out a a Choke can also be an easy way to mise a free win. I’d always want to board one in against them if I had it. I was happy with the card.

If anything, for this tournament I would have wanted a fifth needle/spyglass. I played Lands four (maybe five?) times, and DnT once. No way I’m dropping the fourth needle.

Happy to see your list, more dialogue is good. FYI, if you wanna see me beat Jacob Wilson on camera, it’s at 3:24 at the following link:

https://m.twitch.tv/videos/216345278

:P

Cheers!

Haha, GQing his fetch was classy AF. Yeah I will copy my list below, though I think I will be making a few small changes in preparation for the Worcester Open in early March.

4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian's Stage
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Bayou
1x Llanowar Wastes
1x Snow-Covered Forest
1x Snow-Covered Swamp
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Sejiri Steppe
4x Vampire Hexmage
2x Sylvan Safekeeper
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Lotus Petal
3x Pithing Needle
1x Expedition Map
2x Into The North
4x Crop Rotation
4x Sylvan Scrying
4x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
1x Collective Brutality
2x Gitaxian Probe

Sideboard:

3x Rite of Consumption
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2x Sylvan Library
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Krosan Grip
1x Karakas
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Collective Brutality
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Ground Seal
1x Murderous Cut

I'd like to move 1x Library main, make room for a 4th needle SB, and potentially add a 5th fetch (and replace Llanowar Wastes with my 3rd Bayou). I may cut 1x Into The North main to do this, and maybe an ESG. My deck is pretty much fully altered so I labor over these decisions. Once it is 100% done I'll post some Depths porn for you all :-)

[caseyc]

An interesting take on Dark Depths top 8'd the MKM series Frankfurt tournament this weekend as well.

http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-frankfurt-2018-legacy/

Wow, that list is quite different and interesting.

[huggernaut]

Wow, that list is quite different and interesting.

I’m intrigued by this, but like the wish version it feels resilient but slow.

I don’t really want to play the drs subgame.

Plenty of matches I won at gpsc if I was a turn slower I 100% lose.

[jdmdave]

Regarding spheres, I've recently tested a postboard configuration of -4 sphere, +1 Kgrip & +3 Dark Confidant and am liking what I'm seeing. Storm is just not popular enough to justify the 4x slot and RB reanimator is already an incredibly good mu. If anything, I'd prefer to dedicate slots to the S&S mu.

[criticalslay]

Regarding spheres, I've recently tested a postboard configuration of -4 sphere, +1 Kgrip & +3 Dark Confidant and am liking what I'm seeing. Storm is just not popular enough to justify the 4x slot and RB reanimator is already an incredibly good mu. If anything, I'd prefer to dedicate slots to the S&S mu.

Do you find you need help with S&S? I’ve found the matchup to be fairly easy (small sample size, however). What’s your full SB?

[malekith]

I have one theorical question:

-Player A is playing a version of Dark Depths that includes Hymn to Tourach against Player B who plays Miracles
-Player A cast Hymn to Tourach
-Player B has 7 cards in hand
one is FoW and he has at less two other blue cards (Predict and Ponder)

When we can expect he use FoW to counter our Hymn to Tourach?

-only if he has more than one FoW in hand
-only if he has strong cards like planeswalker or Snapcaster in hand
-only if he has Humility or Karakas in hand (in G2 or G3)
-never
- other answer

could you help me? Thanks in advance.

[PeterSouth]

Hello All:

I know that for some of you this deck may be appealing because it is both very competitive and somewhat affordable, but, on MTGO, I have been running a single Tabernacle out of my sideboard and it has been very successful thus far. Thoughts? I'll provide a couple of examples where it's paid off: vs Empty the Warrens it's blown out my opponents twice. vs Death and Taxes, you could reasonably keep a slow Pithing Needle heavy hand and drop a Tabernacle into play at some point to slow down your opponent. I'm not tied to the card, but I think it opens up windows in certain scenarios where we wouldn't normally be able to win.

Also, while I think that Surgical Extraction is the better overall option, would Grafdiggers' Cage be a somewhat suitable alternative. I own both in paper, but neither on MTGO and based on the matchups I am seeing, I go back and forth about which I want more. I guess that Surgical can be used in either sort of matchup where Grafdiggers Cage is either golden or worthless, but it's just something that I think it worth considering.

i play free mtgo and had tabernacle in sideboard. i just took it out looking for better alternative. the games i felt it helped out im not really sure it would vs an alternative and i think too many circumstances would need to line up. like first doesnt produce mana so really want with urborg. and probably have to waste a tutor to get it. maybe a discard or kill would hsve just been better. problem it doesnt stop opponent just hinders thrm, so they just gonna keep paying the creatures and beating you, while slowing you down too. i not find i sideboarding for it often either.

[FGCmtg]

I have one theorical question:

-Player A is playing a version of Dark Depths that includes Hymn to Tourach against Player B who plays Miracles
-Player A cast Hymn to Tourach
-Player B has 7 cards in hand
one is FoW and he has at less two other blue cards (Predict and Ponder)

When we can expect he use FoW to counter our Hymn to Tourach?

-only if he has more than one FoW in hand
-only if he has strong cards like planeswalker or Snapcaster in hand
-only if he has Humility or Karakas in hand (in G2 or G3)
-never
- other answer

could you help me? Thanks in advance.

Chances are the miracles player will force if they need to make land drops and are scared of getting their lands hymned, or if they need something like a plow as their piece of cheap interaction with the rest of their hand being clunky. Essentially if any one card in their hand is worth more than two other cards at that point and for the near future.

[PeterSouth]

x-post from r/mtglegacy:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18057&f=LE (TD winner 167 player event)

https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/7pbfwk/axion_legacy_masters/?st=jc9lm7ap&sh=00e839ed

bitterblossom & tireless tracker SB

[malekith]

Considering the new cards of Rivals of Ixalan,what about SB The Inmortal Sun ?

Legendary Artifact
Players can't activate Loyalty abilities of Planeswalkers.
At the beginning of your draw step, draw an additional card.
Spells you cast cost 1 less to cast.
Creatures you control get +1/+1.

CC is 6

PW-hate, ramp, CA and pump our Hexmagues in one card...

[ccab]

Regarding spheres, I've recently tested a postboard configuration of -4 sphere, +1 Kgrip & +3 Dark Confidant and am liking what I'm seeing. Storm is just not popular enough to justify the 4x slot and RB reanimator is already an incredibly good mu. If anything, I'd prefer to dedicate slots to the S&S mu.

So what’s your 75?

[Di]

Considering the new cards of Rivals of Ixalan,what about SB The Inmortal Sun ?

Legendary Artifact
Players can't activate Loyalty abilities of Planeswalkers.
At the beginning of your draw step, draw an additional card.
Spells you cast cost 1 less to cast.
Creatures you control get +1/+1.

CC is 6

PW-hate, ramp, CA and pump our Hexmagues in one card...

Excellent for the low, low cost of 6. Alright back to being serious folks.

[DNSolver]

Yeah I got a good facepalm out of that comment. Nice troll.

[filln]

You all laugh now but wait until you Rite of Consumption a D&T player for 20 and they StP their Mom in response... then you'll wish your Marit Lage had that +1/+1 bonus.

[solnox]

any of you guys keep a spreadsheet for Match wins/losses etc?

I started working on 1 again and wanted to see if other people's win rates etcc.

[Mr. Froggy]

What is the consensus on Living Wish in the MD? I've been out of the loop for some time and Turbo Depths is my main deck, so I was wondering since I found a list run by David Long and he ran 4 in his deck.

[jdmdave]

@solnox - I have won with N=143 matches @ 70.6% win rate (Comp leagues)

What are everyones thoughts on Song of Dryads vs SnT + Blood Moon/Bridge Mus? It answers every single Show target while also allowing us to "combo"off blood moon. Sphere has just not been doing enough for me recently.

Tentative Sideboard

* 2 Abrupt Decay
* 2 Song of Dryads
* 3 Surgical (3rd for Storm)
* 2 Ground Seal/Tomb
* 1 Karakas
* 1 Factory
* 1 Sylvan (1 Main)
* 1 Sylvan Safekeeper (Experimenting with 4th vs STP mus)
* 1 Needle

[perian]

What are everyones thoughts on Song of Dryads vs SnT + Blood Moon/Bridge Mus? It answers every single Show target while also allowing us to "combo"off blood moon. Sphere has just not been doing enough for me recently.


I was also tinkering about including this card in my 75 for quite a while. I additional really like the possible interaction with thespian's stage. The problem is, that it does not work with SnT (enchanting the opponents permanent which gets cheated in) because both permanents enter the battlefield the same time (as I understand the rules - please correct me if I am wrong). And in your own following turn it's to late against grisl and emmi.

And as classical removal for moon and bridge I prefer abrupt decays because it can not be countered.

[tilzinger]

From someone who has been playing the deck on Cockatrice for awhile, and finally getting to play it with paper tomorrow night, I have one silly question to ask the experienced players: Do you actually mark 10 counters on Dark Depths somehow? Or is it just understood that it has 10 counters on it until it doesn't? Even when playing on Cockatrice I rarely set the counters and only once did someone complain about it.

Now for one serious question: Thoughts on Gloom in the SB for D&T and Miracles? I won a Miracles match b/c I landed that card. It shut my opponent down pretty hard.

[DNSolver]

Sylvan Safekeeper is better than Gloom. Gloom can be played "through" by hitting land drops, which Miracles excels at. Safekeeper costs fewer mana so you are more likely to be able to cast it after a discard spell, and it completely and utterly changes the game as soon as it resolves.

You mark the 10 counters on Dark Depths. You just *have* to in paper, especially if you're playing in any kind of REL event. I have won games by removing 10 counters manually also.

[Hopo]

From someone who has been playing the deck on Cockatrice for awhile, and finally getting to play it with paper tomorrow night, I have one silly question to ask the experienced players: Do you actually mark 10 counters on Dark Depths somehow? Or is it just understood that it has 10 counters on it until it doesn't? Even when playing on Cockatrice I rarely set the counters and only once did someone complain about it.

Now for one serious question: Thoughts on Gloom in the SB for D&T and Miracles? I won a Miracles match b/c I landed that card. It shut my opponent down pretty hard.

Why would you not put the counters? To obscure the game state?

Gloom has been discussed in this thread before. You can try searching.

[tilzinger]

Why would you not put the counters? To obscure the game state?

I don't intend to obscure the game state. Everyone knows what the deck does. It comes in with 10, then you remove them all. Every game I've played it either has 10 or has 0.

Edit: I guess I'll break out the new 12 sided metal die :)

[gngpostalsrvc]

* 2 Abrupt Decay
* 2 Song of Dryads
* 3 Surgical (3rd for Storm)
* 2 Ground Seal/Tomb
* 1 Karakas
* 1 Factory
* 1 Sylvan (1 Main)
* 1 Sylvan Safekeeper (Experimenting with 4th vs STP mus)
* 1 Needle

How would you SB with the new plan?

[PeterSouth]

Have some gameplay scenario questions for anyone experienced with the deck:

Given the dealt hand: [pithing needle, expedition map, sylvan scrying, urborg TOY, elvish spirit guide, thespain's stage, vampire hexmage]

1. On the play G1 T1 against unknown opponent I have generally been keeping this hand - do you guys? For G2 and G3 could you explain what situation you would mulligan (depending on opponent, play or draw, and optimal sideboard included).

2. What would be your recommended turn one line of play here and why?

3. After playing your line (which the opponent did not respond to), the opponent played island and passed turn. You draw thoughtseize. How would you play next and why?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Couple general questions:

4. I have been using my discard spells asap. Is that what you guys do, or do you hold them until you are about to make Lage?

5. I have been very rarely naming wasteland blind on the play unless like had low land count or made land combo in hand. Is that advised or do you guys do that frequently?

6. Several times I have used fast mana to pithing needle fetchlands (1-2). I don't think I have gotten any good results from it - Is this a play you guys ever make? I think couple times my urborg just made their land usable.

[criticalslay]

Have some gameplay scenario questions for anyone experienced with the deck:

Given the dealt hand: [pithing needle, expedition map, sylvan scrying, urborg TOY, elvish spirit guide, thespain's stage, vampire hexmage]

1. On the play G1 T1 against unknown opponent I have generally been keeping this hand - do you guys? For G2 and G3 could you explain what situation you would mulligan (depending on opponent, play or draw, and optimal sideboard included).

2. What would be your recommended turn one line of play here and why?

3. After playing your line (which the opponent did not respond to), the opponent played island and passed turn. You draw thoughtseize. How would you play next and why?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Couple general questions:

4. I have been using my discard spells asap. Is that what you guys do, or do you hold them until you are about to make Lage?

5. I have been very rarely naming wasteland blind on the play unless like had low land count or made land combo in hand. Is that advised or do you guys do that frequently?

6. Several times I have used fast mana to pithing needle fetchlands (1-2). I don't think I have gotten any good results from it - Is this a play you guys ever make? I think couple times my urborg just made their land usable.

1. This hand is a snap keep; you have the combo and your hand isn’t excessively clunky. In G2/G3, well, this hand has a needle - so it’s obviously an opponent needle is good against. I would still keep. I would only ever mulligan this hand if I were against something like Storm or B/r reanimator.

2. I’d go Urborg, Map, go. You don’t know what you need to needle yet, and if you are going to get wasted, I’d prefer to have the land hit be Urborg.

3. Stage, Thoughtseize, crack Map EOT with spirit guide. If the coast was clear, you have a token now on turn 3. Congrats, you are probably going to win.

4. In the dark, fire them off ASAP. Only against Stoneblade and Miracles would I wait, and even then, only when I don’t have to worry about countermagic. As a general rule, fire off your discard - you have more disruption coming if you need it.

5. Really hand-dependent. Sometimes you can’t beat a wasteland, so think critically about your hand. Naming DRS is very common, depending on the game, even against wasteland decks.

6. Some decks don’t have targets beyond fetches. Sometimes you see their hand and naming a fetch is backbreaking. Sometimes you’ve drawn 3 needles and you just have to name SOMETHING. As you note, this play is very rarely /awesome/, but hey, gotta take what you can get.

Hope this helps. I’m sure others disagree with some of what I’ve written; there’s a lot going on with this deck and its MUs.

[caseyc]

I don't intend to obscure the game state. Everyone knows what the deck does. It comes in with 10, then you remove them all. Every game I've played it either has 10 or has 0.

Edit: I guess I'll break out the new 12 sided metal die :)

I actually end up ticking down manually a fair bit. I always spend the mana if I have it, and in grindy matchups or stalled out game states it can get you there. I've beaten ANT with a manually ticked down Dark Depths backed up by a Safekeeper swinging for 1 a turn. Not the preferred route to victory, but hey, sometimes that's what you gotta do :-)

[DNSolver]

For the first time on this thread in awhile I completely agree with someone else's post. Criticalslay's responses are pretty much exactly what I would say. Additions to those responses here:

3) Obviously, depending on the matchup, you don't *have* to crack Map with Spirit Guide to make the turn 3 token right away, since you have Hexmage too.

5) If my hand doesn't have anything better to do on turn 1, blind naming Wasteland with Needle is usually safe. The only time you get *extremely* punished is Sneak and Show or Reanimator when they are going for Sneak Attack or Griselbrand, but in some cases the Needle doesn't do anything.

[criticalslay]

For the first time on this thread in awhile I completely agree with someone else's post. Criticalslay's responses are pretty much exactly what I would say. Additions to those responses here:

3) Obviously, depending on the matchup, you don't *have* to crack Map with Spirit Guide to make the turn 3 token right away, since you have Hexmage too.

5) If my hand doesn't have anything better to do on turn 1, blind naming Wasteland with Needle is usually safe. The only time you get *extremely* punished is Sneak and Show or Reanimator when they are going for Sneak Attack or Griselbrand, but in some cases the Needle doesn't do anything.

RE: #5 - I find that with some hands, even if I have the needle, I wouldn’t care or even would actively want them to waste my turn 1 land. Some hands I think blind needle is correct, the more important takeaway is that you think before doing it. Even if your opponent has Wasteland, often (not always) a turn 2 needle is just as good.

[jdmdave]

Recently crossed the 200 matches threshold with the deck and STILL having issues with SnT. I'm willing to give up equity in the storm matchup (removing spheres) to somehow prepare for SnT in a GP meta.

[PeterSouth]

Recently crossed the 200 matches threshold with the deck and STILL having issues with SnT. I'm willing to give up equity in the storm matchup (removing spheres) to somehow prepare for SnT in a GP meta.

jdmdave, i cant help on your issue, but what is helping your UW control matches? i losing alot.

[caseyc]

jdmdave, i cant help on your issue, but what is helping your UW control matches? i losing alot.


I just bought into MTGO (Depths) last week, and got my first 5-0 today. So far MTGO has been a pretty good experience, and great practice. The meta is quite different--with a small handful of decks making up a huge portion of the metagame (mostly Grixis Delver, Czech Pile, UW Control, Storm, Lands, Sneak n Show and the occasional Reanimator). In talking to a few other friends who play on MTGO, the level of competition in league matches is stiffer than most paper events until you get to the top tables--so that has been great and challenging practice.

My list on MTGO is a little funky due to the price of Surgical, Collective Brutality, and Grafdigger's Cage being a bit high so I didn't buy them. However, I do want to include 1-2 more pieces of SB hate for Storm, as it is much more popular on MTGO than in paper. I'm leaning toward 2x Sphere, any suggestions from those who play online a lot? DNSolver prevented me from 5-0ing a few days ago -- he worked me over pretty good with TES :-) That's a bit of a rough matchup without SB hate.

The Rite (+Boseiju) SB plan has still been working quite well, though my most difficult matches have been against UW Control, Lands, and Death n Taxes. The Delver players online tend to be of a much higher quality than most of the delver players I run into in paper--and I've lost more to Delver than I ever have before--but now I'm tightening up my play against Delver and doing better again. Definitely getting some great practice, glad I finally bought into MTGO, as I will feel more prepared for future paper events.

[caseyc]

Recently crossed the 200 matches threshold with the deck and STILL having issues with SnT. I'm willing to give up equity in the storm matchup (removing spheres) to somehow prepare for SnT in a GP meta.

I've had pretty good luck against Sneak n Show. I try to always keep a hand with discard and/or needle. If I can discard or Needle their Sneak Attack, Show n Tell becomes a huge liability as I will play out Depths very early, and then show in the other half of the combo so unless they have Omni, they lose. Sometimes on the draw, if I have Depths and Hexmage in hand, I will play out Depths T1 even instead of discard spell, in case they T2 Show n Tell. But that's a bit of a risky move. What tends to go wrong for you in that matchup? Is there a certain play pattern you are having trouble with out of SnS?

[solnox]

I've probably played roughly the same number of matches as you jdmflc or even more on mtgo as I didnt really keep track until recently but my more recent stats suggest a 70% win rate across the board as well.

I don't have much issue with show and tell unless their name is JPA

I usually bring in 2 Surgical, 3 Spheres, Karakas, 2 Decay

[filln]

I've tracked about 60 paper games so far with a 72% match win rate, most losses have come from Sneak & Show and Lands.

[adrieng]

Did anyone tryed spoils of the vault in the turbo build with some dark ritual ?

EDIT : I have just done some testing and it is too much gambeling

[DNSolver]

We don't need more tutors in this deck, especially unreliable tutors.

[PeterSouth]

Did anyone tryed spoils of the vault in the turbo build with some dark ritual ?

EDIT : I have just done some testing and it is too much gambeling

Probably have spent a few hours trying to figure out a way to make it work in this deck or a mono black deck as this card is crazy powerful. Unless want high chance of just dying on the spot would have to add tons of cards to support it and even then it would stink. I was trying to work it with stuff like serum powder, lim-dul's vault, etc. With the blue cantrips would be better. i actually forgot about sylvan library and mirri's guile, maybe that could support 1 of.

[DNSolver]

Felt like switching back to Depths after a few months break with various Griselbrand decks.

Got a pretty easy 5-0 10-0 today with close to my typical list, with 4 Spheres over 4 Mindbreaks and 1 Dryad Arbor main over the 4th Lotus Petal. Spheres were relevant against ANT, the Dryad Arbor being a land was good, but awkward to draw... Never used it as Edict fodder.

R1: ANT 2-0
R2: Eldrazi (Sorcerous Spyglass) 2-0
R3: UWr Stoneblade 2-0
R4: Dredge 2-0
R5: Dredge 2-0

Kinda a feelbad for those two dredge players, I imagine.

[ccab]

Felt like switching back to Depths after a few months break with various Griselbrand decks.

Got a pretty easy 5-0 10-0 today with close to my typical list, with 4 Spheres over 4 Mindbreaks and 1 Dryad Arbor main over the 4th Lotus Petal. Spheres were relevant against ANT, the Dryad Arbor being a land was good, but awkward to draw... Never used it as Edict fodder.

R1: ANT 2-0
R2: Eldrazi (Sorcerous Spyglass) 2-0
R3: UWr Stoneblade 2-0
R4: Dredge 2-0
R5: Dredge 2-0

Kinda a feelbad for those two dredge players, I imagine.

Is the arbor worth the spot in the main?

[DNSolver]

I think so. I board out some / all of the fast mana a lot. I feel like the flexibility afforded by having access to Dryad Arbor postboard when they will have Edicts is worthwhile.

[MDHackbert]

Does Factory make more sense than Arbor? Not tapping for G or coming in from fetch is more awkward, but it does get to tap first turn, albeit for <>, and can choose when it's a creature. Randomly having stage copies as a backup plan are nice too.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[caseyc]

I was just playing against Miracles and copied Azcanta, The Sunken Ruin and a basic Island with two Thespian's Stages and started impulsing...

[DNSolver]

Did you win that game?

Or, did you "win" that game...?

[Negator77']

Does Factory make more sense than Arbor? Not tapping for G or coming in from fetch is more awkward, but it does get to tap first turn, albeit for <>, and can choose when it's a creature. Randomly having stage copies as a backup plan are nice too.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

FWIW, I played a pretty decent # of matches with Factory a few months back and attacking successfully with Factory as a backup plan happened exactly twice.

[filln]

FWIW, I played a pretty decent # of matches with Factory a few months back and attacking successfully with Factory as a backup plan happened exactly twice.

I've been playing Factory as well and while attacking comes up rarely it does make a pretty good blocker too.

[DNSolver]

Jumped online tonight and got another 5-0 MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM makes me tied for first

R1: Sneak and Show 2-0
R2: Lands 2-0 (opponent mulliganed pretty hard G2)
R3: Mono Red Sneak Attack 2-1 (opponent mulliganed pretty hard G1)
R4: Sneak and Show 2-1 (got Blood Moon'd G2, opponent had Leyline of Sanctity G3 but didn't have anything before my turn 3 combo off of Spirit Guide)
R5: Dredge 2-0 (I even mis-sideboarded thinking I was against Storm this round because I just saw Probe and 2 LEDs G1...)

I still haven't played an edict matchup, so I haven't tested out the Dryad Arbor yet. This is the first league I played since my last 5-0 I posted.

[Negator77']

Does Factory make more sense than Arbor? Not tapping for G or coming in from fetch is more awkward, but it does get to tap first turn, albeit for <>, and can choose when it's a creature. Randomly having stage copies as a backup plan are nice too.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

One small difference actually came up in a match tonight... I won a game vs delver by getting an arbor in play to activate stage (board of stage, arbor, depths, artifact mana). They actually flipped edict on a delver trigger that turn, so it was relevant. I would have needed to draw another mana source to beat that with Factory in that spot. Fetching into it EOT is pretty easy in this type of spot. Needing to tutor for factory is also a fairly big downside vs some number of uncounterable fetches to find the answer when you need it.

[jdmdave]

I've been on the factory train for a while, but I've come around on arbor. Basically upside of verdant catacombs fetchable edict outlet + makes green mana offsets summoning sickness + being worse blocker

[carlinms]

Hey DNSolver what’s your current sideboard look like?

[DNSolver]

Current sideboard for the last 5-0:

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Sphere of Resistance
3 Sylvan Library
1 Pithing Needle
1 Karakas
2 Surgical Extraction

I started doing the split of Thorn/Sphere because:

1) The main reason is to protect from Cabal Therapy
2) We aren't bringing in this effect against any decks with creatures, so Thorn vs Sphere doesn't matter for the opponent
3) Sphere actually taxes Hexmage, which is awkward sometimes when you can go turn 1 Sphere but then can't play turn 2 Hexmage, have to wait until you have another mana source on turn 3 or later...

[carlinms]

That’s interesting thanks for the input. It looks like you also aren’t hedging a library main, any particular reason?

[Elfkid]

How do you sideboard with this deck? sometimes i feel blind

is there a sb guide or something to help me? im using DNSolver last maindeck and a sideboard with 4 spheres (should we board in vs elves on the play)

thanks in advance!

[filln]

sideboard with 4 spheres (should we board in vs elves on the play)

For what it's worth I find Elves a pretty good matchup for us and boarding in Spheres isn't where we want to be since all it does is slow us down. While it's true that is can prevent some early Glimpse chains, Elves is way better than us at generating mana so the longer the game goes on the worse it is for us. I'd rather just make the combo as fast as possible and fly over them.

[Elfkid]

For what it's worth I find Elves a pretty good matchup for us and boarding in Spheres isn't where we want to be since all it does is slow us down. While it's true that is can prevent some early Glimpse chains, Elves is way better than us at generating mana so the longer the game goes on the worse it is for us. I'd rather just make the combo as fast as possible and fly over them.

Okay, makes sense, it will be awesome to check sideboard guides even if they are "old" just to get an idea about sb, sometimes i side out the safekeepers and then i miss them so much xD

[DNSolver]

Okay, makes sense, it will be awesome to check sideboard guides even if they are "old" just to get an idea about sb, sometimes i side out the safekeepers and then i miss them so much xD

Vs Elves with my list:

-3 Sylvan Safekeeper
-Bojuka Bog and Steppe as needed
+1 Pithing Needle
+2-4 Abrupt Decay (more if you see Pithing Needle out of them)

However, most of the "sideboarding" decisions are actually in the hands you keep that don't have sideboard cards in that matchup. Typically turn 2 Hexmage hands are fast enough on the play, on the draw you might get discarded so I would have a discard spell of my own or a backup plan of some sort if possible.

[Elfkid]

Vs Elves with my list:

-3 Sylvan Safekeeper
-Bojuka Bog and Steppe as needed
+1 Pithing Needle
+2-4 Abrupt Decay (more if you see Pithing Needle out of them)

However, most of the "sideboarding" decisions are actually in the hands you keep that don't have sideboard cards in that matchup. Typically turn 2 Hexmage hands are fast enough on the play, on the draw you might get discarded so I would have a discard spell of my own or a backup plan of some sort if possible.

Thanks for the answer :)

Today I did 4-1 and 4-1

W vs BR reanimator
W vs Ad nauseam
L vs Grixis delver
W vs Czech pile
W vs bug delver

2nd league

W vs D&T
L vs esper delver (he chained 3 topdecks in a row)
W vs Czech pile
W vs D&T
W vs food chain (turn 1 Marit on the play game 3 xD )

Deck is cool and pretty good, I think I’m not playing the delver MU properly... any advice?

And DnSolver are you going to stream with this deck? I personally have an awesome time when you are streaming tin fins so this will be awesome!

Thanks for all!

[jdmdave]

I'll stream some once I'm done with GP toronto prep.

As for Delver, the MU is 85:15, with most losses coming down to being (1) wastelanded out or (2) edicted

[DNSolver]

Going up now.

twitch.tv/dnsolver

[Stevestamopz]

Going up now.

twitch.tv/dnsolver

I was the Goblins player that was supposed to be a bye for you.

I think you should settle down on the rudeness while streaming - some people (like me) play multiple Legacy decks and also have pet decks that they enjoy. Being condescending about your opponent's deck doesn't make them look bad, it makes you look like a dickhead.

[Sagratho]

I was the Goblins player that was supposed to be a bye for you.

I think you should settle down on the rudeness while streaming - some people (like me) play multiple Legacy decks and also have pet decks that they enjoy. Being condescending about your opponent's deck doesn't make them look bad, it makes you look like a dickhead.

i saw the game... and it was very funny when the guys loses to a bye deck LUL

[caseyc]

I was the Goblins player that was supposed to be a bye for you.

I think you should settle down on the rudeness while streaming - some people (like me) play multiple Legacy decks and also have pet decks that they enjoy. Being condescending about your opponent's deck doesn't make them look bad, it makes you look like a dickhead.

Hey Steve, I was also in chat for the stream and apologize for anything I may have said that offended you. I appreciate the goblins love :-) I think there were a couple times where you misused Wasteland--either firing it off too early or tapping it down to play a goblin, which opened yourself up to the combo. Game 3 you pulled out impressively, hope to see ya around.

ALSO, DNSolver, that was wicked fun playing then going back and watching it from your side. I'm annoyed I made that game-losing mistake game 2--I knew it as soon as I put Scrying on the stack. Also we saw different little ways around what each other was doing. For example, I didn't even think that you could respond to me copying your depths by sacking it to Safekeeper, though I've used that before in different matchups. Also, you were worried I was going to copy your Depths, but not seeing that if I did there was a way you could've killed me. But yeah, very interesting playing you in the mirror, and even more interesting watching it from your side as well. Thanks for streaming man.

[Izza]

I was wondering about your opinions on my current SB.
4 Abrupt Decay [Not questioning, often the only card I board]
1 Karakas [Not questioning]
Lets talk about those:
2 Sylvan Library [none MD, I often got 1 or even 2 stuck in hand while playing 3]
3 Surgical Extraction [Maybe the right amount is 2, I often would like it to be another card.]
3 Sphere of Resistance [Maybe 4 is the right number, but I draw to often more than one. I like it more than Mindbreak Trap, because there is more discard than bounce and its a litte more versatile. They can't keep the discard for the combo turn, rip the Mindbreak Trap out of our hand and go off. I think Chalice is a little worse, it shuts down at least 18 cards in my deck.]
1 GQ [Many of you may doubt it, but having 2 MD after boarding was many times golden.]
1 Bitterblossom [Maybe it should be a Surgical or Sylvan Library. But I think its better as 3 Sylvan Library against miracles. (And maybe against D&T? I never have had it in play against D&T yet)]

I'm looking forward to get some fresh ideas.

[PeterSouth]

[QUOTE=Izza;1035303]I was wondering about your opinions on my current SB.
4 Abrupt Decay [Not questioning, often the only card I board]
1 Karakas [Not questioning]

I tried Karakas couple times and didn't do much for me, so I took it out. Maybe good to question that too...

-If it in against Lage not sure if that useful as approx 7% of field.
-Not produce color need.
-Vs. Griselbrand they still drawing right.
-Not much application vs Miracle, D&T. In lands & D&T might needle Karakas.

What times are you guys finding it was worth the slot vs another card?

[perian]

What times are you guys finding it was worth the slot vs another card?

-Bounce emrakul out of show and tell
-Bounce thalia if you are low on mana
-Bounce against reanimator after bojuka bog is gone
-Bounce the only blocker if it is e.g. Clique

[solnox]

The times where you want Karakas, you absolutely NEED Karakas.

Mostly for Show and Tell in my experience.

I might try out the dryad arbor on mtgo but I sold my paper ones and won't be able to upcoming large tournaments.

I like the idea of a split of Sphere/Thorns.

[DNSolver]

I've been pretty impressed with Rio's play on camera right now (R9). Played 2nd Land, Crop Rot right away and opponent Forces, clearing the way for Pithing Needle naming the Stoneforge that fetched Batterskull the previous turn.

Edit: In G2 Rio did misplay the turn he made Marit Lage by not attacking with the Hexmage before making the guy.

Edit 2: SCG Philadelphia coverage.

[Hopo]

I've been pretty impressed with Rio's play on camera right now (R9). Played 2nd Land, Crop Rot right away and opponent Forces, clearing the way for Pithing Needle naming the Stoneforge that fetched Batterskull the previous turn.

Edit: In G2 Rio did misplay the turn he made Marit Lage by not attacking with the Hexmage before making the guy.
For the sake of discussion, would you be so kind to tell which tournament and stream you mean?

[DNSolver]

Oh, this is SCG Philadelphia that's going on this weekend that I was referring to. Updating post.

[chrstphrbrnnn]

I'll stream some once I'm done with GP toronto prep.

As for Delver, the MU is 85:15, with most losses coming down to being (1) wastelanded out or (2) edicted

Out of curiosity, as a depths player, what decks do you favor in modern? Personally been trying to find something to enjoy lately.

@caseyc:

Notice you've been killing it lately, I was thinking of picking up the deck on modo. Is the extirpate a choice or a budget option?

[Rixile]

I just played this deck for the first time in a MTGO Legacy challenge and got top 4 losing the mirror match to DNSolver. I realized I have no clue how to play the mirror match. Any tips?

[apple713]

I've been pretty impressed with Rio's play on camera right now (R9). Played 2nd Land, Crop Rot right away and opponent Forces, clearing the way for Pithing Needle naming the Stoneforge that fetched Batterskull the previous turn.

Edit: In G2 Rio did misplay the turn he made Marit Lage by not attacking with the Hexmage before making the guy.

Edit 2: SCG Philadelphia coverage.

This actually sounds like the force of will was a misplay because a t2 crop rotation is not threatening unless its agains a graveyard based deck for Bojuka bog. However, if depths player was showing stage or urborg as the other land that is a different story. Because that situation suggests a t3 token from land drops that cannot be countered. Once lifegain from batterskull starts to happen the game tends to go downhill.

[DNSolver]

Ended up getting 2nd in the Legacy Challenge. Rixile already posted above wondering how to play the mirror match, having fought me in the semifinals. I personally play it pretty conservatively, but I know others who mulligan pretty aggressively looking for a pretty quick win. In the mirror, it obviously helps to have card advantage engines like Sylvan Library or Dark Confidant, and to have all your tutors be able to fetch anything (so Map over Into the North). It's usually bad to play Depths out.

As far as other matchups:

R1: Miracles 2-0
R2: UB Standstill 1-2
R3: Lands 2-1
R4: D+T 2-1
R5: Czech Pile 2-0
R6: Eldrazi 2-1 (G1 kept a no-tutor hand with action, never drew a tutor)
Quarters: UB Standstill (same guy) 2-1
Semifinals: Turbo Depths mirror 2-0
Finals: Red D+T 2-1 (won G1, lost G2 fair and square, G3 kept a pretty greedy hand that didn't pan out, and punted I think)

The greedy hand in the finals was:
Bayou
Depths
Hexmage
Pithing Needle
Sylvan Scrying
Sylvan Safekeeper
Sylvan Library

I figured that any land would allow me to scrying, any crop rotation would result in a pretty fast win through turn 1 Safekeeper (which is what I did). I then drew Duress and for some reason cast that and missed on everything instead of Needleing my opponent's Rishadan Port they had played, though they also had Wasteland. Port bought my opponent tons of time and I drew Steppe and nothing until I got Magus'd out.

Kind of a disappointing end to my run through play mistakes of my own, but my win rate only dropped 2.2% down to 82.8%.

[caseyc]

Out of curiosity, as a depths player, what decks do you favor in modern? Personally been trying to find something to enjoy lately.

@caseyc:

Notice you've been killing it lately, I was thinking of picking up the deck on modo. Is the extirpate a choice or a budget option?

Yeah, it is a budget choice. I just bought into MTGO a few weeks ago and wasn't sure how much I'd like it, so I went with some budget options. The version I play in paper has 2x Collective Brutality (1MD, 1 SB), a Surgical SB, and a Grafdigger's Cage SB. But all those cards were overpriced on MTGO so I just made do. However, Extirpate does have some advantages. Primarily against Lands, Extirpate negates their ability to cycle a land or pop a Horizon Canopy to dredge Loam in response. Also there are some corner cases against Storm where the split second can really mess them up. But overall, Surgical is the way to go.

@Rixile I agree with DNSolver that the best approach is to be quite conservative. In my experience, which is still somewhat limited, but better now because I started playing on MTGO, the player who tries to combo first loses, unless they have properly set up and know for sure their opponent can do nothing. Sylvan Library is great, Karakas is great, and I bring in Rite of Consumption. I keep in all the Needles, and bring in Decays and Grip to deal with opposing Needles and Libraries. Often, you end up getting into a stalemate where you start attacking with ESGs and Hexmages. Sometimes you can tell what angle of combo your opponent is going for and Needle them. Or Needle everything and start swinging with little dudes :-)

@DNSolver congrats on the Top2 finish :-) Depths also did well at SCG Philly it looked like, though I wasn't able to watch it. Glad to see it making strong showings in so many events.

[jdmdave]

I'm #3 on the Modern Competitive League Leaderboard (5 5-0s) with BR Hollow One.

[chrstphrbrnnn]

I'm #3 on the Modern Competitive League Leaderboard (5 5-0s) with BR Hollow One.

Ah thought that mighta been you from the jdm from reddit, nice!

@caseyc:

Yeah I have a hard time stomaching the price of surgicals on modo as well, but the lands interaction is pretty nice. I was gonna follow your lead on the extirpate haha.

[Barthalamou]

Been a while since I've been able to play Depths, just got mine back from being altered. Almost have the entire deck foiled.
For modern I play R/b Hollow One, Bant Tempo, Mono Blue Living End, and Bug Eternal Command. In Legacy I also play anything Tezzeretor.
Can't wait to start playing Depths again!
http://oi65.tinypic.com/nq543.jpg
*Edited picture size

[solnox]

@Caseysc

I also play B/R Hollow One in modern on mtgo lol.

I just top8'd CFB's 4k 115 people with my stock depths list as 2nd seed with a record of 6-1 with my 1 loss to the #1 Seed BUG delver in R4 who topdecked the 2nd edict while hellbent.

Sideboard:
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Sphere of Resistance
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Karakas
1 Mishras Factory
1 Boseiju
2 Rite of Consumption
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pithing Needle

Beat
Sneak and Show 2-0
Miracles 2-0
Dnt 2-1
BUG Delver 1-2
Grixis Delver 2-1
Mirror 2-1
Maverick 2-0

[p01ng]

I just top8'd CFB's 4k 115 people with my stock depths list as 2nd seed with a record of 6-1 with my 1 loss to the #1 Seed BUG delver in R4 who topdecked the 2nd edict while hellbent.


Congrats on the Top 8! Unfortunately I couldn't make it today. What other decks made it, if you know? (And I'm guessing you all split like usual.)

[jubeininja69]

the other guy who got 3rd was playing miracles just posted in the dtb section.

anyways is bg depths favored against miracles?

[solnox]

Yea we split. I thought of no sirring due to the 7th seed being on burn but I was tired and wanted food.

Miracles depends on if you play boseiju and rite imo. If you have those, just hope to steal g1 and wreckem postboard with those.

I'd say it's not great g1 but post board improves greatly. Probably a 45-55 depending on pilot skill and sb build

The other depths player I actually beat in the mirror in r6 and we're playing almost a mirror 60.

It was criticalslays teammate on the deck iirc

[filln]

Been a while since I've been able to play Depths, just got mine back from being altered. Almost have the entire deck foiled.

These are great! Who is the artist?

[perian]

Maverick 2-0
Grats!
One question - what's your plan vs maverick. I really struggle with this MU in the last time. Without having safekeeper I feel very behind all the time. Any good advice?

[caseyc]

Been a while since I've been able to play Depths, just got mine back from being altered. Almost have the entire deck foiled.
For modern I play R/b Hollow One, Bant Tempo, Mono Blue Living End, and Bug Eternal Command. In Legacy I also play anything Tezzeretor.
Can't wait to start playing Depths again!
http://oi65.tinypic.com/nq543.jpg
*Edited picture size

These are awesome! My Depths deck is almost fully altered now--here are my Depths:

http://i68.tinypic.com/15nombk.jpg

[solnox]

Nice alters! I'm still running ftv depths while everything is foil. I'm wondering if wotc is gonna reprint dd and I was im pressed with their ima foiling. It's the one thing i want but cfb doesn't have any left in stock

[KSeal31]

I was the Goblins player that was supposed to be a bye for you.

I think you should settle down on the rudeness while streaming - some people (like me) play multiple Legacy decks and also have pet decks that they enjoy. Being condescending about your opponent's deck doesn't make them look bad, it makes you look like a dickhead.


Hey Steve, I was also in chat for the stream and apologize for anything I may have said that offended you. I appreciate the goblins love :-) I think there were a couple times where you misused Wasteland--either firing it off too early or tapping it down to play a goblin, which opened yourself up to the combo. Game 3 you pulled out impressively, hope to see ya around.

ALSO, DNSolver, that was wicked fun playing then going back and watching it from your side. I'm annoyed I made that game-losing mistake game 2--I knew it as soon as I put Scrying on the stack. Also we saw different little ways around what each other was doing. For example, I didn't even think that you could respond to me copying your depths by sacking it to Safekeeper, though I've used that before in different matchups. Also, you were worried I was going to copy your Depths, but not seeing that if I did there was a way you could've killed me. But yeah, very interesting playing you in the mirror, and even more interesting watching it from your side as well. Thanks for streaming man.

I also watched the stream and I think this is highly blown out of proportion. The only things I think that were said are:
"What a bye", "Interesting ideas, like playing goblins in legacy". Honestly I don't think any of these warrant your response in calling someone a dickhead. The first comment is true for many match ups for every deck. Whilst its not a bye, there are games that are/feel like 90%. You must know when choosing to queue with an untiered deck that you are not favorite in the majority of match ups. I don't think these are rude comments at all.

To add to that, after the game they said your deck was cool and gave you props. But I'm sure that escaped your notice.

[PeterSouth]

Ended up getting 2nd in the Legacy Challenge. Rixile already posted above wondering how to play the mirror match, having fought me in the semifinals. I personally play it pretty conservatively, but I know others who mulligan pretty aggressively looking for a pretty quick win. In the mirror, it obviously helps to have card advantage engines like Sylvan Library or Dark Confidant, and to have all your tutors be able to fetch anything (so Map over Into the North). It's usually bad to play Depths out.

As far as other matchups:

R1: Miracles 2-0
R2: UB Standstill 1-2
R3: Lands 2-1
R4: D+T 2-1
R5: Czech Pile 2-0
R6: Eldrazi 2-1 (G1 kept a no-tutor hand with action, never drew a tutor)
Quarters: UB Standstill (same guy) 2-1
Semifinals: Turbo Depths mirror 2-0
Finals: Red D+T 2-1 (won G1, lost G2 fair and square, G3 kept a pretty greedy hand that didn't pan out, and punted I think)

The greedy hand in the finals was:
Bayou
Depths
Hexmage
Pithing Needle
Sylvan Scrying
Sylvan Safekeeper
Sylvan Library

I figured that any land would allow me to scrying, any crop rotation would result in a pretty fast win through turn 1 Safekeeper (which is what I did). I then drew Duress and for some reason cast that and missed on everything instead of Needleing my opponent's Rishadan Port they had played, though they also had Wasteland. Port bought my opponent tons of time and I drew Steppe and nothing until I got Magus'd out.

Kind of a disappointing end to my run through play mistakes of my own, but my win rate only dropped 2.2% down to 82.8%.

Some approx maths from HG calculator in case in similar situation:

-Chance to draw mana producing land on next draw (19 land outs): 36% (19 land + 7 fast mana): 49% (19L + 7FM + 4 crop): 57%

-Chance D&T has in opening hand without mulligan) - (at least 1 wasteland) 40% - (at least 1 of Karakas or STP) 60% - (either) 78% (both) 24%

-Chance duress hits on blind opening 7 hand of D&T (assume 2 land) - 65%

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the line I would have played was 1st turn needle wasteland. 2nd turn safekeeper. if 1st land got wasteland kinda no hope.

DnSolver, on the second turn did you hold Dark Depths or play it - what do you recommend?

[DNSolver]

The main thing is that if I draw Crop Rotation, or even just Urborg, I saw the game ending very quickly through almost any interaction he had because I could play Safekeeper on 1, Hexmage on 2, and Needle on 3. Even if I just drew a mana source, I could Scrying for the Urborg I needed.

One thing you are forgetting with the turn 1 Wasteland play is that experienced D+T players (especially my opponent, in the *finals* of the event) are unlikely to spend their first turn Wastelanding against us. If we have Crop Rot + spirit guide, the game just ends, where just sitting on the Wasteland is probably better if they have no other turn 1 play like Vial or Mom. In this case, my opponent played Port -> Vial and ended up having a Wasteland in hand, so Needle wasnt going to accomplish anything because Needling Wasteland or Vial gets me ported off green in my upkeep, Needling Port might be okay but could backfire if he uses his Wasteland.

[Garrettv1]

Hey guys been really getting into the team format lately and I'll be jamming legacy. I currently play elves but want to switch it up. So far so good but I was curious if there was a discord server I could hop in?

[Arcanis001]

Tournament Report Frankfurt 2018 Legacy Main Event

Hi guys,
quick info about me. I play hardcore Dark Depths since the 19.9.2014 after I get crushed pretty hard by the creator of the deck and saw the potential of it.
Over the time and over 1000 matches later I developed "my version" off it.
Maybe I talk more over my slots and why I choose them in my next post.

So 22.12.12 my friends and I decided to play in Frankfurt but our card pool just have 8 Dark Depths
and 3 off us want to play it (2 Dark Depths & 1 Land.dec) so we order the last cards on mkm and then enjoyed
the Christmas time.

3.1.18 so two days before the tournament starts everybody of my group was ill. And ofc my cards haven´t arrived
So we decide to canceled the whole thing :-/ -end of story.... just kidding

Yeahh here things started by a miracle I meet nice people from my region who want to go to MKM Frankfurt too so I tell my friends
to send me there card viva express and things go right from here 20h later I have the cards from them and was on the way.
I also was lucky enough to get my ticket with I canceled back :-) (only the one for the main event)

So we arrived Saturday and tried to get a place at the side event 0 chance so we go back to the hotel test a bit more after checked out some players

7.1.2018 MKM Legacy Main Event 380 Legacy Players should up to fight for the throne

R1 "Tin Fins" Bomberman Reanimator Hybried 1:2
G1: I start with Land GSZ Arbor go. He make a Grisel with 4 LED Mana flooting says ok attack 3sec later ohhh wait I have 4 mana open no no I go back ok? :really:
Not even 2min in the tournament I felt sorry for him and don´t want to be a dick said ok he draw 7 and have Bomberman combo -> G2
Nice first match vs fast combo :-/ and a strange build but ok I build my sb was built to fight vs BR Reanimator so I felt well equipped.
G2. I kept Discard 2 Surgical Crop and Lands so I felt pretty good after discard he top decked Looting discards Grisel and Auriok and played Exhume
Smiled at me good for me I had 2 surgicals he scooped because a lack of other win cons
G3 I mulled to a hand with surgical and scry saw a second surgical but have nothing else
T1 discard my surgical T2 Magus off the Moon T3 he played Looting discard grisel and Eona and played Exhume again…
I was sitting there with 1 surgical in hand and know ok Iona (from SB don´t saw it g2) and Magus is GG and Grisel on 17 life sounds also not good
He gets the Grisel and I never get to my turn


Yeahh great start in the tournament; he said I never had such nuts draw since a long time

0:1

R2 0mana Dredge 2:0
After a long break because R1 toked us 10min I was paired vs a nice guy from Swiss/Austria can’t remember
He won the roll and say I could start after I saw a starting hand with 1 IOK 2 Cabal I was quite happy because this hand
is good vs both decks that would let you start (0mana Dredge or Grinding Station)
G1 ok he was 0 mana Dredge after a few discards of my choice I had the combo out and could play DRS to go even saver
decided not to give no intel and he was on 6 cards -> 20/20 flyes home the win and he was never abel to discard a card of his choice
G2 Hand of DRS Surgical Discard makes me quite happy long story short after many Rounds where I flashed back Cabals viva Library Draw
and drained him with 2x DRS I have a hand of Surgical Crop and played combo out 2x open DRS he goes to his turn and could after I make my 20/20
Discard the first time a card of this choice in the hole match ofc it was not enough

Ok here we go give me more of it; Props for the foild out deck and ofc for the very nice opp

1:1

R3 ANT 2:0
my op played without a card pad ok strange :really:
G1 i kept the good anti land// anti D&T Hand//anti miracle hand
Port GQ TS DD Needel Needel Maze
So T4 combo in Hand, Needel vs Hate but I decided to keep
After T1 Delta USea BS I was sweeting, we played a while but he just play land go and I port him
on T4 I could put out my combo or play Bayou into Cabal I thought I must discard only reason why I am living
is that the Port steels him Mana I saw 3 DR 2 CR and 1 LP XXD ok he has 2 top decks and thankfully find nothing
(still thinking the T1 BS was super strange because he kept a Hand with just Rituals Lands and 1x BS... good for me)
G2 he has 0 chance T1 DRS T2 Cabal Fetch Arbor flashback Cabal T3 he hast just 2 bad cards in hand i go for GSZ -> Teeg
and could play combo 1 turn later he was forced to play the pedal and top decked IT for chain bounce
so he was left with 1 card and I have DRS Teeg Combo I flashed back a cabal soon later losing the DRS (put W to pool)
he bounced my Teeg I replayed him and have combo open gg

0 card pad with Black boarded Jap Deck ok ^^

2:1

R4 Sneak&Omnitell 2:1
I remember my opp from the Trial where I couldn’t play and spent some time looking around -> Omnitell yeahh
G1 I know what faced so I kept my discard Hand after he found out what I was he was not happy because it should be
a matchup in my favor with it was after Cabal T2 Fetch Flashback Cabal DRS he eto BS find Sneak and
has Grisel with find his friend and petal in the first 7 cards g2
G2 I mulled a hand with 0 threats to find a hand with just needel and 1 discard but no fast combo
We played a bit he shuffled a Bloodmoon away because of DRS to go combo next turn but I have a Needle&GSZ Teeg soon after
and found my combo and some discard before he could find something relevant
G3 I hope I remember this right a fast S&T after forcing my discard I put in my Needel hoped for the best
Griselbrand ok fine Needle it I have combo next turn he was not happy
Jumps next turn and could take 20 the turn after I played Teeg because was afraid of Sneak with emrakul haste
Then he BS eto untapps and played S&T
My Board was: Token & random lands (tapped), Teeg Needel Urborg GQ
Hand: Grip Urborg Libary
He has 2 Volcanis open and 2 cards in Hand S&T on stack

What’s the right play? Because I have a question for a judge (with was sitting on our tabel&match) we go 2-3 stepps
aside while I was asking the judge some random dudes watching our match start talking to my opp with he didn´t liked
the judge got back and was not happy but my opp was a nice player and I don´t imply he wanted to talk so we both where happy
that only the players who start talking with him get warnings

I continue with tapp Urborg GQ my own Urborg (my opp found this strange) get Forest and say ok he put in Omni and I my Urborg
He played his last card a BS i rsp with Grip gg

props for my opp nice player and again for the full foild out pimp deck

3:1

R5 vs Czech Pile 2:0
nothing to say here super easy and 0815
biggest thing was having fetch arbor open vs edict

4:1

R6 URB Pyromancer Delver 2:0
G1 he keept 2 wastelander and tryed to aggro mana deny me
after my T1 Urborg Map I make T2 Bayou GSZ Arbor he wasteland again
Land and sac map (don´t want to give him the option to play land and stifel)
the things start to snowball really fast I had combo soon after and he a wasteland
not sure i played needle or GQ but i forced him to rsp with wasteland and won
G2 he tried the opp just sit with his wastelands and a t2 pyromancer with daze backup
My hand was good with a t3 combo through wasteland but i can´t go through daze
so i played viva my T1 DRS his T2 pyro my T2 toxic he dazed with cleared the way for T3 combo
he finds more interactions we played for a view more rounds while i am copy his wastelands with stages
and i go off with fetch open he smiles play edict i fetched he yeahh sure go on then his face turned soon after

Nice opp again; magic its fun but when you have the luck to battel a lot of nice players in a row it doubles the fun
My friends form our car don´t have such a good day and thinking about dropping but agreed to play 1 more round and see

5:1

I took my time to look at the top tabels and saw a lot of Miracle/Stoneblade/FoodChain/CzechPile decks and hoped I finally get those

R7 I got food chain 2:0
G1 nothing to say easy combo
G2 i let him get infi griffins to combo eto and have toxic (i know he had no force even flashbacked therapy to don´t lose to topdeck)
and win with a 17/17 XD


6:1

R8 Eldrazi Aggro 2:0
I keept my only T2 combo hand of the hole event
G1 t1 discard saw eldrazi
t2 dropped hexmage combo and say topdeck your 0/1/2 off karadas with he didn´t (played 0)
G2 really long game where I kept toxic all time in hand but never find the right time to play it
he had 2-3 factorys and a jitte and i 1 maze and 2 stage with are copys of maze XD
We need to call a Judge because he didn´t believe me his jitte gets off factory when he pass
I finally dropped Toxic with gives him viva Reshaper a Spyglass he named stage and I won the next turn
(had decay in hand but would took 1 turn more)

Nice game 2 toked like 20min+ maybe because in the beginning i was able to copy ports to slow the game super down
My friends finally dropped because and where waiting for me we agreed when i lose 1 match i would also dropp
because we have a 2h+ ride home

7:1

R9 Food chain again 2:0
I was super happy after I was winning quite convincingly vs it R7
G1 I felt bad for my opp he played with nothing just lands after getting ripped of this hand
the 20/20 was a relive for him because his deck doesn´t do him favors just dcard land and counter from top
when it was to late to matter
G2 I had a T3 combo hand with the option to combo T4 again thx to DRS i did it T3 i checked his hand T3 nothing his turn eto I go for it he smiled Edict
I ok my turn put out combo again pass he draws and scoops

My friends had a dinner at a close Italian restaurant and but i was in the mood and what see how far i can push the deck today

8:1

R10
I was now on Tabel 2 and could draw into the top8 because my opp was undefeated



Yeahhh I was playing since nearly 11h without a bigger break or a option to grap something to eat...
My friends where happy for me but also want go home finally
So I have 0 problems with splitting the prices and then I would "drop" but not everybody agrees...

Top 8

I was paired against Fritzwanker Sebastian the only player of the top 8 from with I didn´t know the deck...
but ok lets do it (he revealed maybe on purpose while putting his deck out a sb blood moon)

Because I know there where 1-2 Miracle Decks close to the break I put him on miracle

Keept a good but slow hand vs miracle
T1 he played Petal and tryed to be ANT because of Moon I know he was Sneak&Show
T1 I played Therapy Naming S&T miss
T2 he cantripp land go
T2 fetch flashback therapy force I knew that he have a T3 Sneak attack and I don´t find a Needel
in time and he had a big friend in hand that finds him one more fatty

G2 I keept him good under controll had Teeg in play Needle on Griselbrand a bunch of lands
it comes to the point where I just can lay out my combo but didn´t know this last 2-3 draws so i would set back to the bounce
or played the IOK I draw this turn and gsz for savekeeper to have a next turn combo save
he pierce the IOK I still have 2 mana open I was not sure after a long argument with myself I paid because I was scared of moon/bounce (with was a misplay)
he rsp with BS showed me 2 emrakuls on his turn he played S&T from top (because I paid for pierce I couldn’t make token eto)
even with the s&t land I put in
on my turn I had could play out exactly 7 permanents but could make the token only viva stage so I was dead
had crop in hand but I don´t run karakas for some reasons

yeahh so I finished 5-8 out of 380 players with still was very nice and more that I could expect after the 0:1 start
was super happy with the deck only would change 1 toxic for 1 golgari charm
and ofc I get all the 2h home ride the “love” form my new friends with a lot of karakas commends :laugh::laugh::laugh:

http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-frankfurt-2018-legacy/



Probs:
-Judges where always nice and friendly
-Opp I was really lucky to meet a lot of nice dudes
-Pimp I faced 6-7 pimp decks out off 10 quite nice :cool:
-Big thanks for my friends they waited for me basically 3h+

Cons:
-380 players pls make a 2 day tournament
-not enough places for the trial and a hall that was to crowded and over it limits
-in the end 12h off none stop play you are not at your best... the other dude how was on cam in the top8 was sleeping and it was not faked :laugh:
-just 225€ to finished top 5-8 in a 380 tournament with around 35€ entry :rolleyes:
-not a single match against Miracle, D&T, Lands or BReanimator aka the decks i expect most -> don´t try to predict the meta game :laugh:
-being on the wrong side of the breaker :-P the other side had Czech Pile, BUG, Grixis 3 very positiv matchups and with elves a good matchup
-the arguments I will have to make in this group why karakas is not what we want :wink:

[Athlete]

Great writeup, Felix! Congrats on the success in Frankfurt.

Would you mind sharing your thought process in creating this decklist? Specifically interesting:
- only 3 Hexmages?
- 4 Urborgs? Don't you fear drawing more than one?
- Rishadan Port, what for?
- Maze of Ith? - I presume against Reanimator and S&T?
- how come you chose Cabal Therapy over Thoughtseize?

Thanks!

[perian]

Grats!
Please also tell us about your choice of DRS main. 3 is the same number I figured out to be good. I am so happy that someone else is using DRS. I started thinking I am the only one here and it has to be wrong somehow.

[militiaman89]

Hey guys been wobdering a couple things.

What matchups and why do you board in rite of consumption?

Why duress over inquisition of kozilek in most lists?

Does the deck need 3 bayou or is it fine with 2?

Is there a sideboard guide out there and would you have a link?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[PeterSouth]

Grats!
Please also tell us about your choice of DRS main. 3 is the same number I figured out to be good. I am so happy that someone else is using DRS. I started thinking I am the only one here and it has to be wrong somehow.

i started using drs in my list with zenith too and been spectacular so far. just trying to figure out correct # to use. i currently trying to warp list to support it as well

[caseyc]

Hey guys been wobdering a couple things.

What matchups and why do you board in rite of consumption?

Why duress over inquisition of kozilek in most lists?

Does the deck need 3 bayou or is it fine with 2?

Is there a sideboard guide out there and would you have a link?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

You board in Rite in matchups were they have lots of ways to deal with Marit Lage attacking them. The matchups I bring it in are: Miracles (plus Boseiju), Death n Taxes, Lands, Maverick (usually just 2), and the mirror *just 2). Also if I see or expect an ensnaring bridge. Like Moon Stompy, frees up my Decays/Grip to just hit Blood Moons, and then I can Rite them past Bridge.

Duress hits FOW and some key cards in Storm. Some people run 1-2 IoK.

I run 2x Bayou and 1x Llanowar Wastes. I think you need three B/G sources, the manabase of the deck is shakey. The Llanowar Wastes is to be able to play around Submerge if needed. I don't think it's necessary but it's been useful for me occasionally. I think 3 Bayous is just as good.

If you look back in the forum you will see some SB guides--the thing is--it depends a lot on the configuration of your SB. Rite of Consumption warps the way you SB, for instance.

[jdmdave]

Wrapped up GP Toronto prep./teritary PT prep for my teammate and now setting my eyes on GP Kyoto. Are you guys all on the legacy lands discord? I'd like to discuss the thorn of amethyst plan/3x library in Solvers Sbd.

Current Match data since beginning December.

Overall 106 matches, 70.8% win rate.

12 post 2-1
4c control 8-2
Aluren 2-1
BUG Delver 4-0
Burn 4-0
DNT 3-2 (Safekeeper)
Dragonstompy 1-1
Eldrazi 3-0
Dredge 1-1
Elves 4-1 (lost to Julian)
Enchantress 2-1
Esper Blade 2-0
Grixis Delver 14-2
Lands 4-0 (Safekeeper+ground seal)
Maverick 2-1 (Safekeeper)
Miracles 5-1 (surprise MD blood moon)
Pox 0-1
Reanimator 3-2 (surprisingly bad)
RUG Delver 3-0
SnT 3-6 (Need help)
Slivers 2-0
ANT 3-2
TES 2-2 (Bryant Cook 0-2)
UR Delver 0-1

[ComplexPants]

These are awesome! My Depths deck is almost fully altered now--here are my Depths:

http://i68.tinypic.com/15nombk.jpg


Gorgeous guys! I just finished foiling my main deck out!

[solnox]

I'm working on jpn foiling some of the cheaper pieces atm. Foil JPN Hexmages are hard to find.

[Warden]

Honest question for anyone in the thread, how do you lose to fair non-blue decks? From a Maverick/DnT standpoint even Blood Moon (or the new psuedo blood moon) things are too slow. A hand with needle + blood moon sometimes isn't enough. EDIT: lost several games quickly with wasteland on the table as well.

[Claymore]

DnT obliterates this deck, unless you get a god hand for T2 Lage with disruption.

Maverick is still a hard match up with all the angles it can attack from.

Generally being able to disrupt the combo early with two methods (Wasteland plus Swords) and then following up with Thalia or hate pieces to slow down the EOT tricks it can play. Then getting redundant levels of disruption (Maze, Wasteland, flyer plus Mother of Runes) and then killing before the Depths deck can find all of its contingencies.

[criticalslay]

I know this has been discussed previously in this forum, but I would like to revisit rite of consumption. I have played this deck at length, and never had a good experience with rite. It seems, to me, to be good in the following scenarios:

1. Vs. Miracles, preferably with a Boseiju to fetch as well. I believe this is the most compelling reason, although there are still situations where it may not be good enough, as they can potentially swords a snapcaster to survive. Has anyone has this come up? The idea of having a targeted package that still may not work is unappealing to me.

2. Versus DnT, because they have so many ways to deal with Marit Lage before attacking. This also seems difficult, because I feel like you would die before getting to the necessary mana to get the kill. And, as with Miracles, they can survive by swordsing their own guy.

3. Versus other Marit Lage decks, as a way to break through when you don’t have access to Steppe. Seems more corner, but I’ve found players bringing in rite against me in the mirror several times, so I may/must be missing something.

What to do you think? What, if anything, am I missing in my analysis?

[DNSolver]

Vs D+T, Rite is pretty embarrassing because of Swords'ing their own creatures (assuming you haven't had a chance to attack with Hexmage for a few turns). Additionally, in games where you're clearing the way to cast Rite sometimes they will have gained life with BSkull or have the ability to gain life with Jitte.

Vs Lands and Aggro Loam, Rite has been useful. Aggro Loam can have Swords but it is uncommon.

Vs Miracles, Rite + Boseiju is definitely annoying for them and makes them have to counter your land searches. This will vary in effectiveness depending on opponent skill. Some opponents will be trying to counter land searches anyway, while some will be letting them resolve.

[criticalslay]

Vs D+T, Rite is pretty embarrassing because of Swords'ing their own creatures (assuming you haven't had a chance to attack with Hexmage for a few turns). Additionally, in games where you're clearing the way to cast Rite sometimes they will have gained life with BSkull or have the ability to gain life with Jitte.

Vs Lands and Aggro Loam, Rite has been useful. Aggro Loam can have Swords but it is uncommon.

Vs Miracles, Rite + Boseiju is definitely annoying for them and makes them have to counter your land searches. This will vary in effectiveness depending on opponent skill. Some opponents will be trying to counter land searches anyway, while some will be letting them resolve.

Thanks for the quick reply. Are there matchups not listed where you think rite is useful, or even critical?

[DNSolver]

Against stompy decks like Mono-Red Stompy, Rite can close the game through however many Ensnaring Bridges they have. However, that matchup is probably still extremely unfavorable against versions with ~8 moon effects.

[caseyc]

Thanks for the quick reply. Are there matchups not listed where you think rite is useful, or even critical?

Hey, so I've been on the Rite SB plan since around the Top ban and I've found it really helpful in shoring up most of our "bad" matchups. Here is why I think some people try Rite and don't have success with it: you really have to commit fully to the Rite plan, in most cases. You can't play your normal game plan and then expect to be set up to Rite some one for lethal. This means you prioritize lines of play differently post-board, and mulligan decisions are also quite different. Rite also pairs really well with Sylvan Library, because if you need to commit fully to the Rite plan, you need the card selection to be sure to find it and the other pieces of a successful Rite line.

I understand that others have not had success with it, but I think it may be differences in how you play out those post-board games that leads to it feeling sub-par. Especially: it needs to be your primary plan, not an adjunctive plan to attacking. Occasionally you will attack, but that is not prioritized. There are also lots of other little things you do to try to ensure a successful Rite. I don't have time right now--but maybe later I will post a more detailed strategic post-board approach to each match-up you bring Rite in, if others would be interested in that.

[criticalslay]

Hey, so I've been on the Rite SB plan since around the Top ban and I've found it really helpful in shoring up most of our "bad" matchups. Here is why I think some people try Rite and don't have success with it: you really have to commit fully to the Rite plan, in most cases. You can't play your normal game plan and then expect to be set up to Rite some one for lethal. This means you prioritize lines of play differently post-board, and mulligan decisions are also quite different. Rite also pairs really well with Sylvan Library, because if you need to commit fully to the Rite plan, you need the card selection to be sure to find it and the other pieces of a successful Rite line.

I understand that others have not had success with it, but I think it may be differences in how you play out those post-board games that leads to it feeling sub-par. Especially: it needs to be your primary plan, not an adjunctive plan to attacking. Occasionally you will attack, but that is not prioritized. There are also lots of other little things you do to try to ensure a successful Rite. I don't have time right now--but maybe later I will post a more detailed strategic post-board approach to each match-up you bring Rite in, if others would be interested in that.

I would be interested in that.

[militiaman89]

Hey, so I've been on the Rite SB plan since around the Top ban and I've found it really helpful in shoring up most of our "bad" matchups. Here is why I think some people try Rite and don't have success with it: you really have to commit fully to the Rite plan, in most cases. You can't play your normal game plan and then expect to be set up to Rite some one for lethal. This means you prioritize lines of play differently post-board, and mulligan decisions are also quite different. Rite also pairs really well with Sylvan Library, because if you need to commit fully to the Rite plan, you need the card selection to be sure to find it and the other pieces of a successful Rite line.

I understand that others have not had success with it, but I think it may be differences in how you play out those post-board games that leads to it feeling sub-par. Especially: it needs to be your primary plan, not an adjunctive plan to attacking. Occasionally you will attack, but that is not prioritized. There are also lots of other little things you do to try to ensure a successful Rite. I don't have time right now--but maybe later I will post a more detailed strategic post-board approach to each match-up you bring Rite in, if others would be interested in that.


Yes please that would be great for the community.

[caseyc]

Yes please that would be great for the community.

Ok, I'll base this guide off my paper list (below). My online list is a little different, for budget and paper versus online meta reasons--but both contain the Rite plan.

4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian's Stage
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Bayou
1x Llanowar Wastes
1x Snow-Covered Forest
1x Snow-Coverered Swamp
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Lotus Petal
3x Pithing Needle
1x Expedition Map
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
2x Sylvan Safekeeper
4x Vampire Hexmage
4x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
1x Collective Brutality
4x Crop Rotation
4x Sylvan Scrying
2x Into The North
2x Gitaxian Probe

SB:

3x Rite of Consumption
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1x Karakas
1x Collective Brutality
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Krosan Grip
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Ground Seal
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Sylvan Library
1x Murderous Cut (though I think this is more of a flex slot in general)

Post-board games against Lands:

Side in: 3x Rite of Consumption, 2x Abrupt Decay, 1x Karakas, 1x Ground Seal, 1x Surgical Extraction, 2x Sylvan Library
Side out: 1x Dark Depths, 2x Into The North, 2x Elvish Spirit Guide, 2x Lotus Petal, 2x Gitaxian Probe, 1x Collective Brutality

Opening hand-- high priority cards: Sylvan Library, Pithing Needle moderate priority: Ground Seal/Surgical low priority: combo pieces, except stages are nice in the early-mid game.

Great hand example: Verdant Catacombs, Thespian's Stage, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Sylvan Library, Pithing Needle, Ground Seal, Thoughtseize. This hand is the nuts--it does everything we want to do in the early game.

Keepable hand example: Verdant Catacombs, Thespian's Stage, Expedition Map, Crop Rotation, Surgical Extraction, Bayou, Abrupt Decay. This hand can combo--but is weak to mana disruption. However, having Surgical will bide it time to develop into a better hand, as the loam engine will be offline.

Unkeepable hand example: Thespian's Stage, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Dark Depths, Thoughtseize, Crop Rotation, Sylvan Safekeeper. This is a great hand in a lot of matchups. Not this one. High likelihood you get severely punished if you keep this hand.

Basic strategy: Needle Wasteland and Ghost Quarter as fast as possible (assuming they run it, which they almost always do now), land Library, develop your mana, check out their hand with discard, interrupt their loam engine if possible. Use Karakas to deter a quick combo from them. Once you have done the above, the only thing you really have to worry about is Glacial Chasm, which many Lands players side out--though I'm not sure why. Save a discard spell for the turn you go off just to make sure they can't rotate for Chasm. The way this doesn't work against Lands is if we just get Wastelanded out of the game--hence, why Needle is such a priority. And if we don't have Needle--we need to stop the loam engine as soon as possible. Unlike some matchups, don't hold onto your Needle for the possibility of Needling Karakas or Maze of Ith--proactively stop their mana disruption. We keep Safekeeper in just in case we have the chance to attack for the win. The Decays are primarily for Trackers and the Ramunap Excavators/Crucibles I see popping up more often now. Sometimes it is correct to Decay Exploration or Manabond if you can't disrupt the loam engine.

Post-board games against Miracles:

Side in: 3x Rite of Consumption, 1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All, 2x Sylvan Library, 1x Ground Seal, 2x Decay, 1x Krosan Grip
Side out: 4x Lotus Petal, 2x Gitaxian Probe, 2x Into The North, 1x Collective Brutality, 1x Crop Rotation

Opening hand: high priority cards-Sylvan Library, Sylvan Scrying, Expedition Map. Moderate priority: Duress, Rite of Consumption, Decay (for Blood Moon, Back to Basics, and Mentor). Low priority: Combo pieces. Having tutors is more flexible as your hand develops.

Great hand example: Verdant Catacombs, Verdant Catacombs, Sylvan Scrying, Elvish Spirit Guide, Sylvan Library, Thespian's Stage, Rite of Consumption.

Basic strategy: We want to develop our mana and land a Sylvan Library. Secondarily, we want to discard a couple of their high-impact cards (i.e. Jace, Search for Azcanta, Back to Basics, Blood Moon, Mentor, Entreat). Our first (and probably second) Needle target is almost always Jace. Then maybe Azcanta, The Sunken Ruin--but that is far less important than Jace. Our first land tutor ALWAYS gets Boseiju. That is very important. This land is a one of--and it's possible we'll never see if it we don't grab it first. Also, it helps your other Scryings resolve. Additionally, it can get locked under a Back to Basics if it comes down too late. Another thing we want to be doing in the early game is playing out annoying threats. You'll notice I leave all 4 of the Elvish Spirit Guides in. Unless it is an emergency, don't ever use those for mana in this matchup. Play these out as soon as you are able and start clocking the Miracles player. This puts a slight but significant pressure on the Miracles player to deal with them to be able to stick Jace, or have time to disrupt you in other ways. Also, they will have to spend a turn Terminus-ing or something, rather than cantripping for mentor or Entreat. Finally, these guys are important because they trade with Snapcasters. Almost always take that trade, especially if your opponent is close to 20 life. You don't want them STPing their own Snapcaster to avoid lethal from Rite. You also don't want them clocking you with Snapcaster. A couple hits from our ESG and Swordsing their own guy is no longer an out to Rite. Safekeepers can also protect your dorks from targeted removal, making the Miracles player's life even more annoying. Which, other than being kind of fun, is important in buying us time to Rite them. Discard targets depend on the board state, but usually we are discarding their high impact cards (mentioned above), Disenchents/CJs, and sometimes counter magic. We usually don't need to discard Jace because we can stick a Needle. This is a matchup where you ALMOST NEVER will be attacking for lethal post-board. That means you do everything above to set up for a lethal Rite. Most common secondary win condition is beatdown from little guys, and sometimes Rite sacrificing a Hexmage or something. Remember Hexmage is also an answer to Jace if you haven't found a Needle. You can also Rite of Consumption them with a little guy and redirect to Jace if you really need to. Though sometimes Jace really doesn't matter unless he is close to ultimate. Remember, we can out-grind Miracles with this plan. However, the trump cards they have are Mentor and Entreat. You can save a Decay for Mentor. But Entreat is tougher to deal with. Sometimes you can catch them with it in their hand early--it's almost always correct to discard it so you don't have to worry about it 10 turns later.

I'll follow up later with a section on Death and Taxes and some other less common matchups where Rite comes in. But I gotta take a break :-)

[theMonster]

This is really cool, caseyc - thanks for the writeup.

I've been playing Rites for a while, too, mostly for Lands, DnT, and Ensnaring Bridge decks. But there aren't a ton of UWx decks by me, so I haven't been running Boseiju. Is Miracles (or something similar like UW Landstill) the only archetype you bring it in against? And if you had a fourth Needle in your 75, would you bring it in against Miracles? Any love for something like a miser's Bitterblossom if you expect lots of Pile and/or Miracles, or is it just not necessary?

I'm also curious about the Cage over the second Surgical. I guess with Ground Seal in the sideboard (I've been trying Silent Gravestone and have liked it a lot), Surgical gets a little worse if you draw it after you play Seal.

Very helpful - thanks a lot!

[ClimbGneiss]

Hello All:

What are your thoughts about 1 x Ancient Tomb? For additional possibilities on quick wins and for quick Sphere/Thorn effects post board.

Also, what is the preferred sideboard tech at the moment?

Currently, I run:
1 Pithing Needle
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Sylvan Library
1 Karakas
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Sphere of Resistance

I've been reading a lot about Rite of Consumption and Boseiju. In the upcoming paper meta that I'm going to encounter, I'm likely to see a lot of Miracles, Death and Taxes, Fair Decks with White, and Lands.

[theMonster]

Took 3rd in a 75-man monthly today, beating Tin Fins, Eldrazi, Miracles, UW Landstill, and UB Death's Shadow in the Swiss, then double-drawing into top8 for the 2nd seed. Then I beat another Eldrazi deck with Displacers and four(!) Bearer of Silence and finally got eviscerated by BR Reanimator. Despite getting mollywhopped in the semis, I took home a Liliana of the Veil and a Verdant Catacombs, so I was happy with my tournament. My list:

4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Vampire Hexmage

1 Sylvan Library

3 Lotus Petal
2 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle

4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
1 Collective Brutality
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying

// sideboard //

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Silent Gravestone
1 Pithing Needle
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Krosan Grip
2 Rite of Consumption
1 Bitterblossom
1 Sylvan Library
1 Primeval Titan

I've been playing the fifth fetchland over the fourth Petal for a while now, and I like how it feels, especially when you have to be more cautious in postboard games. Having another way to get basic Forest or Dryad Arbor helps me better play around hate like Blood Moon and Edict, respectively. I like Brutality's versatility, being able to kill a blocker or deal the last two points after a Deathrite activation or something. I board it out a fair bit, though, as it's clunky and doesn't nab Sneak Attack.

Rite of Consumption won me two games today, one against Eldrazi in the Swiss and another against Miracles that sandbagged removal after countering my Safekeeper. I didn't end up needing Boseiju against either of the UW decks I played today, but I can't say for sure if that would be true in the future. Two copies of Rite felt like the right number, as I hate flooding on them. Bitterblossom gives me another angle of attack and saturates their Disenchant effects - I've loved this card and won't leave home without it.

Of course, I'm sure people are wondering what the hell Primeval Titan is doing in there. I've been looking for a card for Sneak 'n' Show that has utility elsewhere, and a friend of mine came up with Prime time. The idea is that the opponent Show and Tells, and you put in Prime Time, getting Karakas and whatever else you need. This is a pretty high variance plan, certainly, and I wasn't 100% sold on it. But I thought I'd try it for science. I brought it in against both of the UW decks, figuring it's just another big, dumb thing they need to answer while also getting value. It's just so much mana, so I'm not sure how consistently I'd be able to cast it. I drew it against Landstill and found better things to do while my opponent had five mana available and four cards in hand. So the jury's still out on it. I don't think I want a fifth Needle effect in Spyglass, so I'll continue testing Prime Time and see how it goes.

Thanks for reading, guys. I played some really cool games and could try to recap some of the memorable ones, if people are interested.

[Namida]

So I won a tournament for a Volcanic Island this past weekend. I copied the most recent list by DNSolver, minus 1 Abrupt Decay, plus one Krosan Grip (that didn't do anything). I have no idea what the Sphere of Resistance/Thorn of Amethyst split is about (Cabal Therapy?) and I didn't have Thorns but it didn't matter (see more about this below).

I went 3-2 in the Swiss.

Infect 1-2. I lost the last game this match because I didn't block a Glistener Elf with Marit Lage when my opponent had one unknown in hand; I was so focused on hoping that he didn't draw a answer that I forgot he could still just kill me and the card he drew was a pump spell.

Death and Taxes 2-1. This player built the deck a week ago. I got smoked in Game 1. Game 2 I made a Marit Lage on Turn 2 with a Safekeeper in play. I only had one land but my opponent also had two removal spells, Path and Swords. He sequenced his cards so that I countered the Path but lost my creature to Swords, and gaining 20 life kept me in the game. He throws a Wasteland away by trying to destroy Depths and I just copy a Swamp. He keeps topdecking answers but I keep topdecking anti-hate so I pull this one out. Game 3 my opponent tries to get too tricky for his own good--he plays a Flickerwisp to exile my Pithing Needle (Wasteland) so he can try to destroy my Depths while I'm a mana short to make a token, but I have Elvish Spirit Guide.

Miracles 2-0 Nothing to see here, my opponent mulliganned to five in Game 1 and I don't even remember Game 2

Eva Green (BG Midrange) 1-2. My opponent was paired down. This matchup should have been a joke, but I lost one game to bad draws on my end, and I lost another game to using my second turn to Scrying for a Depths, and my opponent spent their second turn using Hymn to Tourach, hitting Depths, and then casting Surgical Extraction on it. I anticipated that this was a possibility, but I still cast Scrying. Do you think that was a mistake? This opponent also tried to destroy a Stage when I could copy a basic, and played Pithing Needle on a Stage that was copying a Ghost Quarter. He pointed to my card and I just said "no, give me a name." How do you guys handle this when it comes up? I feel like what I said kind of gives something away if the opponent is attentive enough, and I was wondering if there was a better way.

Grixis Pyromancer 2-0. My opponent mulliganned to five in Game 1 and I dodged a Blood Moon only because he never drew red mana.

I play against the BG and the Infect players again in the Top 8 and Top 4, Both 2-0. It was at this point I realized that no one in my area knows how Depths works. I explained why untapped Wasteland is so bad for me, and there was this collective "oh shit" from all the players I played against. They *all* thought that there was nothing they could do to stop the combo once both lands were in play. I never played like they didn't know the rules, but the fact that they didn't get it caused them to fire Wastelands off at bad times. Do you all think that this is something I should be expecting at a GP at all? Depths is popular but somehow still not respected so there's a chance that many players have never been in a situation where they need to interact with a Depths trigger so they just don't know about it. My area is backwoods Japan though so the caliber of player here isn't high (I won this event playing against the best player in the area but his deck only plays 3 Diabolic Edict and I smashed him--Dryad Arbor MVP).

jdmdave, you had asked me about Depths at GP Chiba before but I was playing Doomsday. Top's banned so I'm playing Depths for GP Kyoto. I actually have a question for you. My teammate and I have been playing Depths for a while, and we have not once brought in any anti-Storm cards because I am literally the only Storm player in my area. The number of Storm players in Japan is pretty low. Did you play against any Storm at Chiba? Do you plan on actually bringing any Sphere effects for the GP? I honestly think there's a good chance of never seeing a single Storm opponent for the whole event, so it'd be better to have more general answers there. One of the Storm players in Tokyo is talking about how the Magus of the Moon D&T decks are getting popular in Tokyo, and I remember this mad scramble for Sanctum Prelates at GP Chiba because so many people wanted to play D&T, so I'd rather be prepared for that.

[jdmdave]

clean 2-0 2-0 2-0 3-0 sweep at the GP Toronto Sunday side event with DNsolvers latest list. I don't really like going down to 3 urborg, but it worked?

[DNSolver]

Reasons for Sphere / Thorn split from 3 pages back:

1) The main reason is to protect from Cabal Therapy
2) We aren't bringing in this effect against any decks with creatures, so Thorn vs Sphere doesn't matter for the opponent
3) Sphere actually taxes Hexmage, which is awkward sometimes when you can go turn 1 Sphere but then can't play turn 2 Hexmage, have to wait until you have another mana source on turn 3 or later

Edit: #2 actually awkwardly is incorrect. We are bringing this in against Belcher, so Tinder Wall isn't taxed by Thorn.

[jdmdave]

why the 3 urborg? I've always liked 4x, but your results speak for themselves

[DNSolver]

I've literally never gone away from 3 Urborg in this version of the deck. Like, here's the change log:

June 2016: started playing the deck. After 1st challenge, -3 Into the North +3 Expedition Map
(various Miracles sideboard changes, maindeck remains unchanged for ever)
Top ban April 2017: -3 Not of This World +3 Sylvan Safekeeper, fix sideboard to 4 storm hate, 3 Library, 2 surgical, 1 Needle, 1 Karakas, 4 Decay
(various alterations of 4 Sphere vs 4 Mindbreak Trap, maindeck unchanged)
January 2018: fixed sideboard to 2 Sphere 2 Thorn, -1 Petal to +1 Dryad Arbor maindeck

[jolssoni]

First post on Source.

I've been on Depths (or as we call it in our playgroup, Team Greece: Depths -> Debts -> Greece -> Team in front to respect traditions, we'll see if the name sticks) for a bit over two months now, deck's been overperforming at weekly tournaments, 75-80% winrate or something, losses mostly to really good Delver draws, Aggro Loam and Blood Moon, and I won a local tournament series invitational (DNSolver was in the Twitch chat! on January 21st, was cool to find out after the games) with it after switching from BR Reanimator. In Finland Aggro Loam, Maverick and DNT are excessively popular especially in bigger tournaments so I'm still on 3x Not of This World instead of Safekeeper. I think you can't really beat Loam without either NoTW or Rite of Consumption, Safekeeper just gets removed when you don't have excess land to pitch or rots in hand when there's a turn 1 Chalice.
Current list:
3 Expedition Map
3 Lotus Petal
4 Pithing Needle
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Vampire Hexmage
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Crop Rotation
3 Not of This World
3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Swamp
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Duress
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Sylvan Library
SB: 2 Ground Seal
SB: 4 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Karakas

Funny enough, I think besides Blood Moon my worst matchup locally seems to be Merfolk. Phantasmal Image, Harbinger of the Tides, Chalice, Force and Echoing Truth and Clique is a lot of stuff to grind through.

[Athlete]

Funny enough, I think besides Blood Moon my worst matchup locally seems to be Merfolk. Phantasmal Image, Harbinger of the Tides, Chalice, Force and Echoing Truth and Clique is a lot of stuff to grind through.

Confirm, I think the Merfolk matchup is bad for us - had a couple of rounds against it myself and ended up loosing every time, even with Notw in hand.

[MDHackbert]

Confirm, I think the Merfolk matchup is bad for us - had a couple of rounds against it myself and ended up loosing every time, even with Notw in hand.

I think adopting the recent industry standard of Sylvan Safekeeper will help all that targeted removal. Since I booted Not of this World, I have never looked back.

[solnox]

I think I made a good case for the deck by convincing last years EW winner to play the deck :tongue:

[Othersider]

Has anyone tried Worldly Tutor? I recently picked up this deck (after playing a rather noncommittal version featuring wishes at Champs a couple years ago, after which I shelved it) seeing that it seems to have coalesced into a fairly optimized list and put up a few numbers. I haven't played this version against anyone yet, but after goldfishing it for a couple hours on Cockatrice, I find myself wishing my one maindeck Sylvan Library and one of the Pithing Needles were Worldly Tutors. On a couple occasions, I could have used them to set up a turn 3 win (again, just goldfishing; had Urborg and Depths but no Hexmage and Stage would have made for a turn 4 win). I'm considering giving a couple Worldly Tutors a shot.

[Hopo]

Has anyone tried Worldly Tutor? I recently picked up this deck (after playing a rather noncommittal version featuring wishes at Champs a couple years ago, after which I shelved it) seeing that it seems to have coalesced into a fairly optimized list and put up a few numbers. I haven't played this version against anyone yet, but after goldfishing it for a couple hours on Cockatrice, I find myself wishing my one maindeck Sylvan Library and one of the Pithing Needles were Worldly Tutors. On a couple occasions, I could have used them to set up a turn 3 win (again, just goldfishing; had Urborg and Depths but no Hexmage and Stage would have made for a turn 4 win). I'm considering giving a couple Worldly Tutors a shot.

My hot take: you already spend a lot of cards as fast mana and disruption while you still need two cards for the combo. Worldly tutor adds more to this issue by taking more cards from your hand. This kind of card disadvantage is likely too much to handle. Also, it looks like Living Wish is just superior to WT. It doesn't cost you a card and gives you more options.

[Othersider]

My hot take: you already spend a lot of cards as fast mana and disruption while you still need two cards for the combo. Worldly tutor adds more to this issue by taking more cards from your hand. This kind of card disadvantage is likely too much to handle. Also, it looks like Living Wish is just superior to WT. It doesn't cost you a card and gives you more options.

But Living Wish requires you to play a Hexmage in the board. The goal was for Worldly Tutor to be Hexmage #5 (and possibly 6), not #4. It seems like most people eschew the Wish plan nowadays in the "turbo" version, and after playing a janky version of Thopter Depths the last few weeks that included wishes, I understand why. It's too slow to compete with the other fast combo decks.

[Hopo]

Your best bet is basically to sleeve up some and start testing. My guess is that you will end up running out of cards more often than not.

I would endorse Tutor if you play some sort of reliable card advantage machine like Bobs or Libraries with it but as it is, not so much.

[caseyc]

Ok, I'll base this guide off my paper list (below). My online list is a little different, for budget and paper versus online meta reasons--but both contain the Rite plan.

4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian's Stage
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Bayou
1x Llanowar Wastes
1x Snow-Covered Forest
1x Snow-Coverered Swamp
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Lotus Petal
3x Pithing Needle
1x Expedition Map
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
2x Sylvan Safekeeper
4x Vampire Hexmage
4x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
1x Collective Brutality
4x Crop Rotation
4x Sylvan Scrying
2x Into The North
2x Gitaxian Probe

SB:

3x Rite of Consumption
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1x Karakas
1x Collective Brutality
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Krosan Grip
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Ground Seal
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Sylvan Library
1x Murderous Cut (though I think this is more of a flex slot in general)

Post-board games against Lands:

Side in: 3x Rite of Consumption, 2x Abrupt Decay, 1x Karakas, 1x Ground Seal, 1x Surgical Extraction, 2x Sylvan Library
Side out: 1x Dark Depths, 2x Into The North, 2x Elvish Spirit Guide, 2x Lotus Petal, 2x Gitaxian Probe, 1x Collective Brutality

Opening hand-- high priority cards: Sylvan Library, Pithing Needle moderate priority: Ground Seal/Surgical low priority: combo pieces, except stages are nice in the early-mid game.

Great hand example: Verdant Catacombs, Thespian's Stage, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Sylvan Library, Pithing Needle, Ground Seal, Thoughtseize. This hand is the nuts--it does everything we want to do in the early game.

Keepable hand example: Verdant Catacombs, Thespian's Stage, Expedition Map, Crop Rotation, Surgical Extraction, Bayou, Abrupt Decay. This hand can combo--but is weak to mana disruption. However, having Surgical will bide it time to develop into a better hand, as the loam engine will be offline.

Unkeepable hand example: Thespian's Stage, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Dark Depths, Thoughtseize, Crop Rotation, Sylvan Safekeeper. This is a great hand in a lot of matchups. Not this one. High likelihood you get severely punished if you keep this hand.

Basic strategy: Needle Wasteland and Ghost Quarter as fast as possible (assuming they run it, which they almost always do now), land Library, develop your mana, check out their hand with discard, interrupt their loam engine if possible. Use Karakas to deter a quick combo from them. Once you have done the above, the only thing you really have to worry about is Glacial Chasm, which many Lands players side out--though I'm not sure why. Save a discard spell for the turn you go off just to make sure they can't rotate for Chasm. The way this doesn't work against Lands is if we just get Wastelanded out of the game--hence, why Needle is such a priority. And if we don't have Needle--we need to stop the loam engine as soon as possible. Unlike some matchups, don't hold onto your Needle for the possibility of Needling Karakas or Maze of Ith--proactively stop their mana disruption. We keep Safekeeper in just in case we have the chance to attack for the win. The Decays are primarily for Trackers and the Ramunap Excavators/Crucibles I see popping up more often now. Sometimes it is correct to Decay Exploration or Manabond if you can't disrupt the loam engine.

Post-board games against Miracles:

Side in: 3x Rite of Consumption, 1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All, 2x Sylvan Library, 1x Ground Seal, 2x Decay, 1x Krosan Grip
Side out: 4x Lotus Petal, 2x Gitaxian Probe, 2x Into The North, 1x Collective Brutality, 1x Crop Rotation

Opening hand: high priority cards-Sylvan Library, Sylvan Scrying, Expedition Map. Moderate priority: Duress, Rite of Consumption, Decay (for Blood Moon, Back to Basics, and Mentor). Low priority: Combo pieces. Having tutors is more flexible as your hand develops.

Great hand example: Verdant Catacombs, Verdant Catacombs, Sylvan Scrying, Elvish Spirit Guide, Sylvan Library, Thespian's Stage, Rite of Consumption.

Basic strategy: We want to develop our mana and land a Sylvan Library. Secondarily, we want to discard a couple of their high-impact cards (i.e. Jace, Search for Azcanta, Back to Basics, Blood Moon, Mentor, Entreat). Our first (and probably second) Needle target is almost always Jace. Then maybe Azcanta, The Sunken Ruin--but that is far less important than Jace. Our first land tutor ALWAYS gets Boseiju. That is very important. This land is a one of--and it's possible we'll never see if it we don't grab it first. Also, it helps your other Scryings resolve. Additionally, it can get locked under a Back to Basics if it comes down too late. Another thing we want to be doing in the early game is playing out annoying threats. You'll notice I leave all 4 of the Elvish Spirit Guides in. Unless it is an emergency, don't ever use those for mana in this matchup. Play these out as soon as you are able and start clocking the Miracles player. This puts a slight but significant pressure on the Miracles player to deal with them to be able to stick Jace, or have time to disrupt you in other ways. Also, they will have to spend a turn Terminus-ing or something, rather than cantripping for mentor or Entreat. Finally, these guys are important because they trade with Snapcasters. Almost always take that trade, especially if your opponent is close to 20 life. You don't want them STPing their own Snapcaster to avoid lethal from Rite. You also don't want them clocking you with Snapcaster. A couple hits from our ESG and Swordsing their own guy is no longer an out to Rite. Safekeepers can also protect your dorks from targeted removal, making the Miracles player's life even more annoying. Which, other than being kind of fun, is important in buying us time to Rite them. Discard targets depend on the board state, but usually we are discarding their high impact cards (mentioned above), Disenchents/CJs, and sometimes counter magic. We usually don't need to discard Jace because we can stick a Needle. This is a matchup where you ALMOST NEVER will be attacking for lethal post-board. That means you do everything above to set up for a lethal Rite. Most common secondary win condition is beatdown from little guys, and sometimes Rite sacrificing a Hexmage or something. Remember Hexmage is also an answer to Jace if you haven't found a Needle. You can also Rite of Consumption them with a little guy and redirect to Jace if you really need to. Though sometimes Jace really doesn't matter unless he is close to ultimate. Remember, we can out-grind Miracles with this plan. However, the trump cards they have are Mentor and Entreat. You can save a Decay for Mentor. But Entreat is tougher to deal with. Sometimes you can catch them with it in their hand early--it's almost always correct to discard it so you don't have to worry about it 10 turns later.

I'll follow up later with a section on Death and Taxes and some other less common matchups where Rite comes in. But I gotta take a break :-)

Ok, time for the next installment:

Post-board games against Death and Taxes:

In my experience, this is our hardest matchup, even with Rite. Just about every card in their deck does something we don't like. The advantage of Rite is that it shuts off Karakas, Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, and the Mother of Runes + flying blocker lock. However, it makes their Batterskull and Jitte even better, and provides an alternate mode for StP: "Sacrifice target creature you control to not die." Also, unlike Miracles--DnT matches play out very differently each time, as what their hand does changes drastically each game. This dynamic makes it hard to know what to prioritize in mulligan decisions and the first couple plays of the game.

Sideboard in: 3x Rite of Consumption, 2x Abrupt Decay, 1x Krosan Grip, 2x Sylvan Library, 1x Collective Brutality, 1x Karakas, 1x Murderous Cut

Side out: 4x Elvish Spirit Guide, 2x Gitaxian Probe, 1x Duress, 1x Lotus Petal, 1x Bojuka Bog, 2x Into The North

Opening hands versus DnT-- high priority cards: Sylvan Library, Pithing Needle, Verdant Catacombs (having a good starting mana base is important), moderate priority cards: Abrupt Decay, Discard (only really on the play to hit Aether Vial), Sylvan Scrying to increase manabase.

The first 1-2 turns against DnT you are 1) developing your manabase, 2) taking a look at their hand, 3) and assessing what kind of game plan they have going, based on their hand or, if you don't have a discard spell, the lines they are playing. Usually, you want to wait a couple turns to see what you want to Needle. Usually the high priority Needle targets are Wasteland and Aether Vial (as Flickerwisp at instant speed targeting your Depths also interrupts the combo). However, there are times that Port is so disruptive you need to Needle it to advance your gameplan. I have even Needled Stoneforge Mystic that had fetched Batterskull because they were land light and I needed a few turns to threaten a Rite kill. As the Rite plan usually takes several turns to assemble, you want to reduce their clock as much as possible. Karakas is a great tool is they keep a hand predicated on Thalia as their clock, and disruption. One of the strengths of Rite is that opponents mis-prioritize cards. Often, I will turn 1 Thoughtseize a DnT opponent and see a hand like Thalia, Karakas, Plains, Swords to Plowshares, Swords to Plowshares, Mother of Runes, Path to Exile--a very beatable hand if we are on Rite--and a hand with no clock when we have our own Karakas--or copy theirs with Thespian's Stage. We also always want to discard a Sanctum Prelate if we see it, because often Prelate on 2 is lights out. This is why, against an opponent who knows we are on the Rite plan (for instance in a Top 8, or a small event, or if you have been on the top tables and it is later rounds) it may be correct to not over-prioritize a Rite kill. Because if it is known, it is less effective as opponents can prioritize more appropriately. A main objective is to stop any of their approaches to go above 20 life. And, if possible, deal them a few damage so Swordsing one of their guys isn't an answer. Equipment is a likely target to get Needled or Decayed/Gripped--because it represents a fast clock and card advantage or life gain. RW Taxes adds another complication because of Magus. Against RW Taxes, discard spells in your opening hand is more important to hit Magus, Recruiter, or Mother of Runes. Also, there are opportunities to combo with their Magus, so holding onto Depths and playing it out under Magus is sometimes correct. There are probably a lot more things to say about this matchup, as it is so challenging and complex. In summary, this is a tough matchup, but I believe Rite is a viable way to win post-board games that often feel almost unwinnable otherwise. Also, Rite gains a lot of value because it is a lesser known win condition and causes opponents to mis-prioritize.

I'm also going to post about Maverick and Blood Moon decks, in a little while.

[slave]

Hi ladies & germs,

I'm getting into this deck - I have almost all the parts, just short a few cards here or there.
I really want to play with DD, it looks fun.
But I have a few questions;

Given Wasteland is unquestionably going to be across the table in a lot of match-ups, how do we deal with it?
What I mean is, how do we win should waste target depths & they immediately target depths with Surgical Extraction?
Are we just straight up boned?
Can this deck do anything sneaky in response to this line of play?

Secondly;
I've been considering building with Solemnity.
Reason being, Glacial Chasm & Elephant Grass seem like a natural fit here while I assemble the pieces.
Lessening my reliance on Urborg seems like it might increase manabase flexibility.
Is Solemnity worth my time brewing, or is there a weakness to this line of play I should consider?

Thanks!

[Negator77']

Has anyone tried Worldly Tutor? I recently picked up this deck (after playing a rather noncommittal version featuring wishes at Champs a couple years ago, after which I shelved it) seeing that it seems to have coalesced into a fairly optimized list and put up a few numbers. I haven't played this version against anyone yet, but after goldfishing it for a couple hours on Cockatrice, I find myself wishing my one maindeck Sylvan Library and one of the Pithing Needles were Worldly Tutors. On a couple occasions, I could have used them to set up a turn 3 win (again, just goldfishing; had Urborg and Depths but no Hexmage and Stage would have made for a turn 4 win). I'm considering giving a couple Worldly Tutors a shot.

A bunch of players bring in surgical extraction with the idea of answering the first token and exiling the rest of the depths. This plan is often awful since careful planning can usually lead to the first token getting there or being protected. Getting a worldly tutor countered by a random surgical shuffling your deck is another downside on top of the card disadvantage and lack of versatility something like Living Wish offers when it comes to testing other tutors. Also, this would need to be auto boarded out vs Miracles since you can basically never cast this when they have two mana up and unknown cards. Predict is a card.



Given Wasteland is unquestionably going to be across the table in a lot of match-ups, how do we deal with it?
What I mean is, how do we win should waste target depths & they immediately target depths with Surgical Extraction?
Are we just straight up boned?
Can this deck do anything sneaky in response to this line of play?

Thanks!
If you fear that line from an opponent, be mindful of when you play the Depths. Playing an extra stage to copy their Wasteland or your own Ghost Quarter before playing Depths is a straightforward path. Leaving mana up for Crop Rotation is also an easy out. If it's a MU where you bring in your own surgicals, you can surgical depths in response and leave the other three in your deck. If they catch you, you are stuck trying to win via your small creatures or something they give you access to.

[filln]

Given Wasteland is unquestionably going to be across the table in a lot of match-ups, how do we deal with it?
What I mean is, how do we win should waste target depths & they immediately target depths with Surgical Extraction?
Are we just straight up boned?

The best defense to Wasteland is Pithing Needle. There's a reason there's usually a full playset in the 75. Negator mentioned other common defenses of Crop Rotation and Ghost Quarter. In terms of Surgical Extraction, most of the time you should be winning with your first Marit Lage due to the amounts of protection we play (discard, Sylvan Safekeeper, Seijiri Steppe). If they do catch your Dark Depths, one rare line of play would be to Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog to counter the Surgical. One great piece of sideboard tech many have found success with is Ground Seal to protect against Surgical, among other uses.

[Othersider]

A bunch of players bring in surgical extraction with the idea of answering the first token and exiling the rest of the depths. This plan is often awful since careful planning can usually lead to the first token getting there or being protected. Getting a worldly tutor countered by a random surgical shuffling your deck is another downside on top of the card disadvantage and lack of versatility something like Living Wish offers when it comes to testing other tutors. Also, this would need to be auto boarded out vs Miracles since you can basically never cast this when they have two mana up and unknown cards. Predict is a card.

Yes, I can see why it would definitely be bad against some decks like control, but there are plenty of decks in Legacy that just try to race and have few or no counter spells, so this would just be my attempt to maximize the best attempt to race from an opening hand. I fully expect the possibility that, given enough interactive decks, it may not be worth it overall and I would in fact rather have the additional Pithing Needle main or whatever. I was just curious if anyone else had tried it so I didn't waste my time doing so if it's been tried and rejected. Thanks for the comment. By the way, what do you do if they successfully remove a Marit Lage and Extract the Dark Depths? Concede? Try to beat down with Hexmages and Spirit Guides?

[Hopo]

By the way, what do you do if they successfully remove a Marit Lage and Extract the Dark Depths? Concede? Try to beat down with Hexmages and Spirit Guides?

There are games where this will be how you win but like everything else, it depends on other things. Beatdown becomes near impossible once there is any creature with toughness >2 on the battlefield. Then there are times when your hexmage and safekeeper go all the way. It's up to you to asses the possibility of ending the game like that. Basically you just beat down until they cast a wall and assess again whether it's worth continuing.

You can play around that Surgical also by Bojuka Bogging yourself in response. That leaves you with three Depths in your deck while Rotation -> Depths leaves you one on the battlefield.

[caseyc]

Ok, time for the next installment:

Post-board games against Death and Taxes:

In my experience, this is our hardest matchup, even with Rite. Just about every card in their deck does something we don't like. The advantage of Rite is that it shuts off Karakas, Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, and the Mother of Runes + flying blocker lock. However, it makes their Batterskull and Jitte even better, and provides an alternate mode for StP: "Sacrifice target creature you control to not die." Also, unlike Miracles--DnT matches play out very differently each time, as what their hand does changes drastically each game. This dynamic makes it hard to know what to prioritize in mulligan decisions and the first couple plays of the game.

Sideboard in: 3x Rite of Consumption, 2x Abrupt Decay, 1x Krosan Grip, 2x Sylvan Library, 1x Collective Brutality, 1x Karakas, 1x Murderous Cut

Side out: 4x Elvish Spirit Guide, 2x Gitaxian Probe, 1x Duress, 1x Lotus Petal, 1x Bojuka Bog, 2x Into The North

Opening hands versus DnT-- high priority cards: Sylvan Library, Pithing Needle, Verdant Catacombs (having a good starting mana base is important), moderate priority cards: Abrupt Decay, Discard (only really on the play to hit Aether Vial), Sylvan Scrying to increase manabase.

The first 1-2 turns against DnT you are 1) developing your manabase, 2) taking a look at their hand, 3) and assessing what kind of game plan they have going, based on their hand or, if you don't have a discard spell, the lines they are playing. Usually, you want to wait a couple turns to see what you want to Needle. Usually the high priority Needle targets are Wasteland and Aether Vial (as Flickerwisp at instant speed targeting your Depths also interrupts the combo). However, there are times that Port is so disruptive you need to Needle it to advance your gameplan. I have even Needled Stoneforge Mystic that had fetched Batterskull because they were land light and I needed a few turns to threaten a Rite kill. As the Rite plan usually takes several turns to assemble, you want to reduce their clock as much as possible. Karakas is a great tool is they keep a hand predicated on Thalia as their clock, and disruption. One of the strengths of Rite is that opponents mis-prioritize cards. Often, I will turn 1 Thoughtseize a DnT opponent and see a hand like Thalia, Karakas, Plains, Swords to Plowshares, Swords to Plowshares, Mother of Runes, Path to Exile--a very beatable hand if we are on Rite--and a hand with no clock when we have our own Karakas--or copy theirs with Thespian's Stage. We also always want to discard a Sanctum Prelate if we see it, because often Prelate on 2 is lights out. This is why, against an opponent who knows we are on the Rite plan (for instance in a Top 8, or a small event, or if you have been on the top tables and it is later rounds) it may be correct to not over-prioritize a Rite kill. Because if it is known, it is less effective as opponents can prioritize more appropriately. A main objective is to stop any of their approaches to go above 20 life. And, if possible, deal them a few damage so Swordsing one of their guys isn't an answer. Equipment is a likely target to get Needled or Decayed/Gripped--because it represents a fast clock and card advantage or life gain. RW Taxes adds another complication because of Magus. Against RW Taxes, discard spells in your opening hand is more important to hit Magus, Recruiter, or Mother of Runes. Also, there are opportunities to combo with their Magus, so holding onto Depths and playing it out under Magus is sometimes correct. There are probably a lot more things to say about this matchup, as it is so challenging and complex. In summary, this is a tough matchup, but I believe Rite is a viable way to win post-board games that often feel almost unwinnable otherwise. Also, Rite gains a lot of value because it is a lesser known win condition and causes opponents to mis-prioritize.

I'm also going to post about Maverick and Blood Moon decks, in a little while.

Against Mono Red Blood Moon Decks:

A note on game 1-- there is a temptation to concede to a turn 1 Blood Moon to not allow your opponent to know what you are on, however--the information you get over the next few turns will probably help you more than them. To concede to a turn 1 blood moon, two conditions need to be met: 1) you know which variety of Mono Red your opponent is on, and 2) they have presented a win condition that can beat a couple ESGs, Safekeepers, or Hexmages. By conceding, you've already signaled that a turn 1 blood moon is lights out for you--their deck is already pretty much sideboarded against you. You need to use game 1 to determine if they are on a) mono red sneak attack, b) 8 moon prison (with Ensnaring bridge), or c) some other jank. A far second to that, sometimes all their hand does is make a blood moon, so sometimes you can win through beatdown--though admittedly that's rare.

Against Mono Red Sneak Attack--SB in: Karakas, Krosan Grip, 2x Abrupt Decay, Collective Brutality, 2x Sylvan Library
SB out: Bojuka Bog, Sejiri Steppe, 2x Gitaxian Probe, 2x Sylvan Safekeeper, 1x Into The North

Against Moon Stompy Prison-- SB in: 2x Abrupt Decay, Krosan Grip, 2x Sylvan Library, 3x Rite of Consumption
SB out: Bojuka Bog, Sejiri Steppe, 2x Gitaxian Probe, 2x Sylvan Safekeeper, 1x Into The North, 1x Collective Brutality

Evaluating hands on the play is easier. High priority cards: Basic lands/Fetches, Discard Spells, Combo pieces. Crop Rotation and Pithing Needle are nice insurance cards against Sneak Attack versions. Evaluating hands on the draw is much harder. You want a hand that can do 1 of 2 things: a) beat a turn 1 moon effect, or b) can punish them if they don't have turn 1 moon, i.e. has discard and a fast combo in case they don't have turn 1 moon. For example, this hand beats a turn 1 moon: Dark Depths, Abrupt Decay, Elvish Spirit Guide, Lotus Petal, Sylvan Scrying. This is an example of a hand that punishes the Mono Red opponent for not having turn 1 moon: Verdant Catacombs, Thoughtseize, Dark Depths, Crop Rotation, Elvish Spirit Guide, Vampire Hexmage, Sylvan Scrying. Against Sneak Attack, needle Sneak Attack. Against prison, Needle their planeswalkers--the foremost of which is Chandra, Torch of Defiance. Surprisingly often, you can combo off of their Blood Moon with the new ruling. So if you have Decay or Grip, you can let the play out their moon effect, play your Depths, then Decay or Grip the moon. Against the prison variant, prioritize discarding their moon effects (as multiple moons is tough), then their clock, be it Goblin Rabblemaster or Chandra. Lastly, you can discard their Ensnaring Bridges, but those are lower priority because you will eventually draw Rite, especially if you have Sylvan Library up and running. I actually think the Blood Moon deck matchup isn't abysmal. Their deck has silly amounts of variance, especially the Sneak Attack version. Just be patient, disciplined on mulligan decisions, and don't give up too easily. Very often you can win even after going to 2 life and having your board wiped by a Through the Breach -- Emrakul. I find the moon matchup to be about 50% maybe a little worse, but not much.

[Namida]

So, I'm working on what I want to do for GP Kyoto next month. I really don't get to play much, so I have a few things I've been thinking about but I don't have many opportunities to test. I'm going to talk about a bit about my thoughts and ask a few questions. If anyone is willing to comment, I would appreciate it.

The maindeck I have been using has been the list that DNSolver has been playing on Magic Online. The only change is that I've been playing a Blooming Marsh over a Bayou. I recall the split being for the sake of playing around Submerge, but has anyone seen a Submerge recently? The only decks that would play that card are like RUG, Merfolk and Infect, but none of those decks seem popular enough to be concerned about (I even played against Infect at my last event and I don't even think he had Submerges). It's just better to play the 3rd Bayou, right? I'd be surprised if Bayou #3 ever punished me at this GP--the most popular decks are White or Black so they have better options.

So my main questions are about the sideboard. This is the sideboard of the list that I last played (copied from the internet):

3 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Karakas
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sphere of Resistance

So first off, I had cut a Decay for a K-Grip. It didn't come up once in my last event. Is there any reason *not* to run 4 Decay? I was also looking into possibly playing Song of the Dryads because it's a versatile mono-green removal spell, but it's fragile and I don't know that it's necessary.

When are you bringing Sylvan Libraries in? I know it's for white decks, but I'm specifically wondering if you're siding in all three copies against Death and Taxes. Do you just cut a bunch of fast mana to make room for them? I'm debating if I want so many copies in my sideboard.

I've lived in Japan for a long time, and I feel pretty confident in gambling on playing against literally no Storm decks at the Grand Prix. It's just not popular here--people here didn't even seem to know it was a deck until Kai Sawatari made Top 8 at the first GP Kyoto. As such, I'm not playing any Spheres in my deck. If people are playing combo decks I would expect Mono Black Reanimator or Show and Tell (it is ridiculous how much people love Griselbrand here). Also, at the last GP there was a lot of Death and Taxes, and Kai made a post on the ANT Facebook Group saying that RW Death and Taxes is getting really popular in the Tokyo area, so those are the things I want to prepare for.

With my newfound sideboard space, this is what is on my mind:

More Surgical Extractions: When are you guys bringing this card in other than in combo matchups? I kind of hate Surgical but it's a good hedge against Storm, probably not too bad against Show and Tell, but I can't see myself wanting it in other matchups, and I especially can't see myself wanting 3+ copies of it against any deck that doesn't play directly from the graveyard. If you had the space, would you play more than 2 copies of this effect for any other reason? I've got three copies of SE in my hypothetical board but the third copy is probably the first card that will go. I've seen Ground Seal popping up in a few places and that seems like it may be a better choice.

Mass Removal: My first feeling is that I want a Toxic Deluge. It's versatile...but how many different decks are we going to want to bring a sweeper in against, really? Death and Taxes is the main one, with maybe Elves or something fringe as well. More narrow sweepers like Massacre and Dread of Night have glaring weaknesses in the Depths v. Taxes matchup so unless there's something I'm missing it seems like Toxic Deluge is the best option even in a world where D+T is the only creature deck. I don't know how many I want to play so I've settled on one--I don't want to devote a ton of space to the matchup because the matchup is bad enough that I don't think I gain a lot in trying to improve it (especially because it's a team event where I can also hope to depend on my teammates).

Inquisition of Kozilek: This is actually the main thing on my mind. More discard seems like a good plan against all the combo decks so it makes sense to play these in my open anti-combo slots, and having this card against Death and Taxes seems better than the miserable feeling I have with keeping in any copies of Duress to strip away white removal. I kind of want to put as many copies of this card into my sideboard that I can get away with unless there's something I'm missing that makes it a terrible idea.

I say all that to say that my first draft of a sideboard for the event looks like this:

1 Karakas
1 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge

Looking at what I have here, what do you think? The one thing that sticks out the most to me is that I'm not sure how my sideboarding will look in matchups where I would want Sylvan Library. Inquisition looks like it may have overlap in a lot of the matches where I would want Library.

[Arcanis001]

Great writeup, Felix! Congrats on the success in Frankfurt.

Would you mind sharing your thought process in creating this decklist? Specifically interesting:
- only 3 Hexmages?
- 4 Urborgs? Don't you fear drawing more than one?
- Rishadan Port, what for?
- Maze of Ith? - I presume against Reanimator and S&T?
- how come you chose Cabal Therapy over Thoughtseize?

Thanks!

Thanks

- 3 Vampire Hexmage
yeahh my Deck is less all in then the 6-8 fast mana lists here
and drawing more then 1 Hexmage is in most cases bad
I also prefere going off viva Stage to leave my mana open and see
what his play is

I agree that you want in the Ritual version 4 Hexmages


- Rishadan Port
Its one off the best cards when the game goes longer
Its usally my first target against Miracle I try to find all 3-4 Stages
and copy Port and try to lock them out of their W Mana and prolong the game
to find a gap to go off

1x Port means no Mentor t3 and t4 because then we are threatening to go off
means Jace come down only t6 to have W open

It also helps you in Matchups where you like more then 1 GQ like the Lands Matchup or D&T


- Maze of Ith
In the beginning of the development it was sometimes a 2 off in some Lists
Its always good just to buy time and gets even better when you are able to copy it
and set up a big Toxic
MVP in D&T and Elrdazi Matchups also nice to stall random big Golfs or Angler Fishes

and when it gets a Wasteland perfect way clear for the combo
as I said in the beginning my version is way better in the mid and long game then the
Turbo Lists while my list just lose a small % off speed -> see next post about DRS & GSZ

- Cabal Therapy
its clearly the best discard we can wish for
T1 Cabal into T2 fetch Dryad Cabal Flashback// T2 GSZ Dryad Cabal Fashback is soo good vs most combo decks

It always is strong because it gives you after the T1-T2 handdistruption the option
to find the gap in the deff in flashback it to clear the path even against 2 STP

The question is more why IOK over TS
because I tend to grind out games more I found the 2 life add up most times
but here I am not sure and test both a lot normally I side the 4 IOK vs all
non combo decks out G2&G3 because Cabal and flashback Cabal is all we need

[Arcanis001]

Grats!
Please also tell us about your choice of DRS main. 3 is the same number I figured out to be good. I am so happy that someone else is using DRS. I started thinking I am the only one here and it has to be wrong somehow.

Yeahh 3 DRS is really a big thing

Most people here play 6-8 rituals but I think T1 DRS is 90% off the time better then a Petal in hand
you still are able to combo t2-t3 and have a better plan vs Reanimator D&T Lands and Storm
so 4 matchups where you struggle with the ritual list

DRS pro con
-starting hand always as good as an ritual // in the first draw ritual gets you a faster combo but after this DRS is always better then a ritual
-DRS gets STP perfect no STP for Marit Lage
-aktiv Grave hate MB (Reanimator, Land, ANT vs some Past in Flame piles)
-gives us permament Mana under Tax (really good vs D&T)
-SSG always gives us mana under Blood Moon DRS needs a land in grave (we have enough legendary lands so play 2 -> sac 1 in the worst case)
-DRS gives you a win under Bridge with is imp vs the 8 moon 4 bridge chandra decks witch are poping up
-DRS drain allows us to still win after Batterskuller/jitte hits us one time because they tapp Maze
also makes it harder for Ad Nauseum because they have virtual -2 lp

DRS is just the 1 mana Planswalkers on legs for Legacy and helps us in many Situations
if you don´t want to be an all in deck and have better topdecks in the long game
I see not reason not to run him

[DNSolver]

@Arcanis Port is much less effective vs fetchlands out of Miracles. Claiming that Jace can't come down until turn 6 isn't quite accurate, because if they leave a fetchland up Port can't tap them out. Additionally, if you are spending two mana to tap down their land on turn 6, you might not be able to combo unless you have Urborg. Also, DRS is rather poor vs Storm IMO, and Reanimator is favorable overall without it.

@Jolssoni Welcome to the source and the best, most helpful deck thread. Where are you in Greece? Going to be in Thessaloniki for March and April.

@Namida Interesting idea to board into more discard against the combo decks, rather than lock pieces. This is something I actually haven't considered. Perhaps a better discard spell than Inquisition, though, because Inquisition is a bit poor against Show and Tell. Hymn seems like it might not be castable in some situations, though, especially if you are on 3 Urborg like me. Not sure if there is other playable discard besides Therapy, though.

[filln]

Not sure if there is other playable discard besides Therapy, though.

Maybe Collective Brutality? Two mana is not an insubstantial amount against fast combo but it's of course very flexible in other situations too.

Also, congrats to everyone, we've made it into the Deck to Beat section! 🎉

[caseyc]

@Namida Interesting idea to board into more discard against the combo decks, rather than lock pieces. This is something I actually haven't considered. Perhaps a better discard spell than Inquisition, though, because Inquisition is a bit poor against Show and Tell. Hymn seems like it might not be castable in some situations, though, especially if you are on 3 Urborg like me. Not sure if there is other playable discard besides Therapy, though.

Yeah I do like having additional discard in the SB. It's not as good as lock pieces against Storm--but more flexibly good against the field. Currently I run (in paper) 4x Thoughtseize, 2x Duress, 1x Collective Brutality maindeck and an additional Collective Brutality SB. Online I just replaced the Brutalities with Duress. I only run 7x MD discard because I also run 2x MD probe, that so far I have really enjoyed. I often board them out for SB games--I think they are just incredibly effective game 1.

Though Collective Brutality isn't as good against combo as Duress (or maybe even IoK, though that's debatable), it's a really flexible answer. And sometimes it is just game-winning. Against pile: take your edict, kill your strix. Against infect: kill your creature, take your pump spell. Against burn: kill your guy, take your bolt, gain some life. Not that we need any help against burn... but it's fun :-) Also very strong and flexible against Delver.

[DNSolver]

Deck. To. Beat.

[Namida]

It completely slipped my mind that Inquisition of Kozilek isn't very good against the actual Show and Tell pieces other than Show and Tell itself. All the available discard choices have their strengths and weaknesses; I like the suggestion of Collective Brutality--it's similarly not very good against Show and Tell, but it's probably better against the Death and Taxes decks. I think I know some Show and Tell players I can convince to let me test both of them so I'll give that a shot next week. Thank you all for your input!

[jdmdave]

We did it fam!

[solnox]

good job everyone

[jolssoni]

@DNSolver I'm actually Finnish :laugh: Probably not going to be in Greece any time soon but I was planinng on attending GP Barcelona. If the main event goes belly up might dodge some Blood Moons in Legacy side events.

[Mr. Froggy]

I remember when people thought this deck was a gimmick. Mow look at it!

[ComplexPants]

Deck. To. Beat.

Holy crap!! Wow. Awesome job guys!

[WorstBandNameEver]

I haven't play much MTG since starting grad school. Was just looking at my pieces for the deck today and decided to check the forum. Awesome news on moving up to a DTB everyone!

[daft]

Hey guys, I had some questions about the sideboard plan and strategy versus Grixis Delver. I have been having trouble with it lately and I know it is supposed to be a good match-up.

Here is the list I am running: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/858297#paper

Currently, I sideboard out my fast mana, bring in abrupt decays, sylvan library, factory, and surgical. My thinking is that they have minimal outs to marit large and generally we just need to get around counter magic, wasteland, and edict. I try to force a longer game with the library advantage and use needles, surgicals, and discard to get rid of the problem cards. This used to work, but lately I just die a one to two turns before I can go off.

What have you guys found effective in this match-up? What is your sideboard plan and how does your strategy and key cards change post-board?

Thanks!

[caseyc]

Hey guys, I had some questions about the sideboard plan and strategy versus Grixis Delver. I have been having trouble with it lately and I know it is supposed to be a good match-up.

Here is the list I am running: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/858297#paper

Currently, I sideboard out my fast mana, bring in abrupt decays, sylvan library, factory, and surgical. My thinking is that they have minimal outs to marit large and generally we just need to get around counter magic, wasteland, and edict. I try to force a longer game with the library advantage and use needles, surgicals, and discard to get rid of the problem cards. This used to work, but lately I just die a one to two turns before I can go off.

What have you guys found effective in this match-up? What is your sideboard plan and how does your strategy and key cards change post-board?

Thanks!

Hey Daft,

I don't think Grixis Delver is a great Sylvan Library matchup as they are pressuring your life total in the early game. BUG Delver I bring in Libraries against because it is good against Hymn. With your current SB, I would bring in 3-4 Decays, Factory, and the 4th Needle. I think I would actually board out your Library, 1-2 ESGs, and 1-2 Safekeepers, and Maps if you see Stifle. Grixis Delver can be tricky, but it is a good matchup. Sometimes you can stop their early pressure by Decaying a Delver, discarding a Gurmag Angler, etc. However, ultimately, you are going to have to combo--and the more turns you give them to cantrip and draw cards, the more likely they find Wastelands, Edicts, countermagic, and maybe Surgicals. And eventually they'll land a threat and start clocking you. That being said, don't play into Daze if you don't need to. Don't expose Depths to a Wasteland post-board. Carefully sculpt your combo while using discard spells to keep them off balance and evaluate for the need to play around Edict with a creature or Factory. In most cases, I don't think you want the game going super long if you think you can just combo and kill them--they have better card selection. Playing against Delver is basically a balancing act and you just have to evaluate how to shift your weight based on how the game develops. Also, when we are on the play we can kind of tempo them by playing spells we don't care too much about into Daze--though knowing when to do that can be tricky. Especially if they don't have a turn 1 threat, or they don't flip their Delver, goading them into Dazing a spell can be useful on the play to gain tempo advantage and potentially set up a situation where they are strapped on mana to deploy threats, cantrip, and then have mana left over to Edict or play out a Wasteland. That's my two cents anyways :-) Good luck!

[Namida]

Hey guys, I had some questions about the sideboard plan and strategy versus Grixis Delver. I have been having trouble with it lately and I know it is supposed to be a good match-up.

Here is the list I am running: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/858297#paper

Currently, I sideboard out my fast mana, bring in abrupt decays, sylvan library, factory, and surgical. My thinking is that they have minimal outs to marit large and generally we just need to get around counter magic, wasteland, and edict. I try to force a longer game with the library advantage and use needles, surgicals, and discard to get rid of the problem cards. This used to work, but lately I just die a one to two turns before I can go off.

What have you guys found effective in this match-up? What is your sideboard plan and how does your strategy and key cards change post-board?

Thanks!

Looking at a bunch of lists on MTG Top 8, the typical sideboard cards out of Grixis Delver that interact with us seem to be Surgical Extraction, Diabolic Edict, and Wasteland. In my mind this means that Delver players are so afraid of this matchup that they've started bringing in Edicts just not to be completely dead (correct me if I'm wrong). It's like you said--they have minimal outs. But you're not punishing them for having minimal outs by slowing the game down to give them more time to find what they need.

You need to play around Wasteland, keep Dark Depths from being hit by Surgical Extraction, and keep Diabolic Edict from killing Marit Lage. I don't think that Sylvan Library and Surgical help with fighting against the cards that actually matter here, so you're overboarding and diluting the Plan A that has Delver players so scared of the deck in the first place.

Against Grixis Delver, the only thing I've been doing is siding in the 4th Pithing Needle. I understand the desire to play some Abrupt Decays too because it's not bad to have an answer to their Pithing Needle and you do gain a lot of breathing room if you kill an early Delver, but do you *need* that breathing room? The entire point of the Delver deck is to force unnecessary 1-for-1 trades, and I think spending a card on any creature in their deck is unnecessary when you go over the top so easily (I also feel pretty bad holding Decay against Delve creatures or True-Name which is just another sort of positive trade in your opponent's favor). You're the aggressor here, don't play the game at their pace if you can help it. I'd suggest assuming that the only worthwhile target for Abrupt Decay is Pithing Needle and to sideboard accordingly (basically, the number of Abrupt Decay you bring in is up to you but I think that bringing in all of them only slows you down for no gain).

All your discard spells and your fast mana make counterspells not very good against you (I don't like boarding out a lot of fast mana because it lets you embarrass your opponent's Dazes and other soft counters). Even then, Crop Rotation is the only card I'd ever feel bad about my opponent countering because this deck is so redundant. Play around Wasteland like you normally would, and be aware that your opponent has access to probably 1-2 removal spells for Marit Lage. Surgical Extraction may seem like a useful counter for opposing Surgical Extraction, but you could just as easily not expose your Dark Depths to Surgical Extraction by never letting it hit the graveyard until you're going to make a token and you're certain your token will survive (AKA don't even play a Dark Depths until you have to).

[chrstphrbrnnn]

Is there an updated sideboarding resource for something resembling the DNSolver version? I read back through the last 12 pages and did a thread search but I couldn't quite find what I was looking for.

Mostly interested in what to cut from the main in which match ups and where all the places I want Sylvan Library are.

I assume the cuts are typically some of the follow:
2+ pieces of fast mana
Safekeepers
Utility lands
Some number of search (map or scrying)
Duress

Some of the places for cuts are obvious and some not so much and I think I have been bringing in Library maybe more than I need to (but frequently only 2).

Thanks

[Namida]

Can you tell us what type of matchups you're bringing Sylvan Library in against, and what cards in your maindeck you're considering cutting in those matches?

[kellysandall]

Hey so I'm curious about why you do or dont run into the north? farseeking your basic lands or dark depths seems really good but I'm probably missing something? Also, what are this decks bad matchups?

[jordanda]

Can you tell us what type of matchups you're bringing Sylvan Library in against, and what cards in your maindeck you're considering cutting in those matches?

Usually I bring library in against DnT, stoneblade, Pile, Miracles, and moon stompy (to dig for decays and basics). I have also read that some people bring them in against storm and reanimator to dig for SB cards but I personally think that that's a little too slow against those decks.

When I bring in libraries I cut down on fast mana and search effects (usually sylvan scrying), but would never cut sylvan safekeepers unless I'm playing against moon stompy because those are usually matchups where you really want safekeeper.

[hymnyou]

Decks to beat, wow

[Kirt]

Hey guys, i am testing this deck to play the next GP, i have a few question about sideboarding (playing Pascal list, 4 spheres side)
what matchups do u bring spheres? i assume elves, foodchain/aluren, storm (belcher, all spells, and that stuff) but do u bring in against UR delver, Burn, Show and Tell, Reanimator?
Thanks

[filln]

Hey guys, i am testing this deck to play the next GP, i have a few question about sideboarding (playing Pascal list, 4 spheres side)
what matchups do u bring spheres? i assume elves, foodchain/aluren, storm (belcher, all spells, and that stuff) but do u bring in against UR delver, Burn, Show and Tell, Reanimator?
Thanks

I tend to avoid bringing in Sphere against Elves and Burn. I find both matchups to be pretty decent and they don't have a lot of ways to interact with your combo so what you want to be doing is making Marit Lage as soon as possible since we're usually faster than both decks.

[epicthings]

not necessarily strategy related, but it is Turbo Depths related!!! Today I finally completed a project I started a little over a year ago... to get my ENTIRE deck signed and its finally done! heres some notes regarding the deck as well as the pics! hope you enjoy!

"Fun" Facts:

This project was started 1 year and 8 days ago

This deck contains the signature of 27 Artists + 1 Hall of Fame Pro

The Hall of Fame player being Olle Rade, who won the first Magic Invitation and designed the card, Sylvan Safekeeper. I couldnt pass up a set of Safekeepers signed by both the artist AND card designer

I had cards shipped from as far as Japan and Italy and as close as California.

The Rarest of signatures being Chris Rush, Beta Forest. Vance Kovaks, Verdant Catacombs and Doug Chaffee, Sphere of Resistance.

Aside from the FBB Bayous, the Spheres are the most expensive cards in the deck, Due to Dougs passing 7 years ago and the fact that he rarely signed, the two Spheres set me back $470.

I completed this deck by working with artists directly, artist brokers who manage the signings of a large group of artists as well as picking up cards as they became available,

In addition to the decks are some cool sketches, notes and artist proofs that the artists sent me as well as some cards that have been retired from the deck.


Tried to upload pics, but they're too big so here's a link!

https://imgur.com/a/g6pEi

[solnox]

beautiful.

[Quentin Coldman]

Hey guys yesterday I made third place of 104 at local tournament with the following list:

4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Blooming Marsh
2 Llanowar Wastes
1 Snow-covered Forest
1 Snow-covered Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Lotus Petal
3 Pithing Needle
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Collective Brutality
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
2 Expedition Map
2 Sylvan Library

Sideboard:
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Krosan Grip
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Ground Seal
3 Not of this World
1 Pithing Needle

Matchups were:

2:1 vs Grixis Tezzerator
1:2 vs Czech Pile
2:0 vs RUG Lands
2:0 vs 4c Control (with Punishing Fire and Wasteland)
2:0 vs Elves
2:0 vs Elves
2:1 vs Elves
Quarterfinal 2:1 vs Grixis Delver
Semifinal 1:2 vs Czech Pile

Misplayed at the semifinal otherwise I guess I'd win. He plays Surgical to Hexmage, Snap Surgical to Decay and played Needle for Thespian's Stage and I forgot to use Stage in response to copy any other land. Next turn I drew the Depths I was looking for. My boarding against Czech Pile was: -4 Petal, -3 Needle, +2 Ground Seal, +1 Surgical, +3 Decay, +1 Factory. Any other tips for the matchup?

[Athlete]

not necessarily strategy related, but it is Turbo Depths related!!! Today I finally completed a project I started a little over a year ago... to get my ENTIRE deck signed and its finally done! heres some notes regarding the deck as well as the pics! hope you enjoy!

"Fun" Facts:

This project was started 1 year and 8 days ago

This deck contains the signature of 27 Artists + 1 Hall of Fame Pro

The Hall of Fame player being Olle Rade, who won the first Magic Invitation and designed the card, Sylvan Safekeeper. I couldnt pass up a set of Safekeepers signed by both the artist AND card designer

I had cards shipped from as far as Japan and Italy and as close as California.

The Rarest of signatures being Chris Rush, Beta Forest. Vance Kovaks, Verdant Catacombs and Doug Chaffee, Sphere of Resistance.

Aside from the FBB Bayous, the Spheres are the most expensive cards in the deck, Due to Dougs passing 7 years ago and the fact that he rarely signed, the two Spheres set me back $470.

I completed this deck by working with artists directly, artist brokers who manage the signings of a large group of artists as well as picking up cards as they became available,

In addition to the decks are some cool sketches, notes and artist proofs that the artists sent me as well as some cards that have been retired from the deck.


Tried to upload pics, but they're too big so here's a link!

https://imgur.com/a/g6pEi

wow, thats dedication! Congrats dude!

[caseyc]

Hey guys yesterday I made third place of 104 at local tournament with the following list:

4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Blooming Marsh
2 Llanowar Wastes
1 Snow-covered Forest
1 Snow-covered Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Lotus Petal
3 Pithing Needle
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Collective Brutality
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
2 Expedition Map
2 Sylvan Library

Sideboard:
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Krosan Grip
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Ground Seal
3 Not of this World
1 Pithing Needle

Matchups were:

2:1 vs Grixis Tezzerator
1:2 vs Czech Pile
2:0 vs RUG Lands
2:0 vs 4c Control (with Punishing Fire and Wasteland)
2:0 vs Elves
2:0 vs Elves
2:1 vs Elves
Quarterfinal 2:1 vs Grixis Delver
Semifinal 1:2 vs Czech Pile

Misplayed at the semifinal otherwise I guess I'd win. He plays Surgical to Hexmage, Snap Surgical to Decay and played Needle for Thespian's Stage and I forgot to use Stage in response to copy any other land. Next turn I drew the Depths I was looking for. My boarding against Czech Pile was: -4 Petal, -3 Needle, +2 Ground Seal, +1 Surgical, +3 Decay, +1 Factory. Any other tips for the matchup?

Congrats! Sounds like a good run. I would try to keep in some of those petals. We don't really want a long game against Pile because they eventually shred our hand and have us pinned between Strix and Jace and access to snap Edict or something. Ground Seals are great against Pile, you may not need the full 3 Decay because Brutality deals nicely with their Strix. Why Surgical? Leaving in 1-2 Needles might be good because of Jace or sometimes the 2-3 of Wasteland, depending on the build. I have been playing with Dryad arbor and I've found it much more effective than Factory, and you can play it maindeck without too much trouble. It sounds like you may be overboarding against Pile and slowing down the combo plan a bit too much, that's my two cents.

[ccab]

Hey guys yesterday I made third place of 104 at local tournament with the following list:

4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Blooming Marsh
2 Llanowar Wastes
1 Snow-covered Forest
1 Snow-covered Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Lotus Petal
3 Pithing Needle
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Collective Brutality
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
2 Expedition Map
2 Sylvan Library

Sideboard:
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Krosan Grip
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Ground Seal
3 Not of this World
1 Pithing Needle

Matchups were:

2:1 vs Grixis Tezzerator
1:2 vs Czech Pile
2:0 vs RUG Lands
2:0 vs 4c Control (with Punishing Fire and Wasteland)
2:0 vs Elves
2:0 vs Elves
2:1 vs Elves
Quarterfinal 2:1 vs Grixis Delver
Semifinal 1:2 vs Czech Pile

Misplayed at the semifinal otherwise I guess I'd win. He plays Surgical to Hexmage, Snap Surgical to Decay and played Needle for Thespian's Stage and I forgot to use Stage in response to copy any other land. Next turn I drew the Depths I was looking for. My boarding against Czech Pile was: -4 Petal, -3 Needle, +2 Ground Seal, +1 Surgical, +3 Decay, +1 Factory. Any other tips for the matchup?


How is the manabase running for you without fetches? Seems suboptimal. Or does it work really well?

[Quentin Coldman]

Congrats! Sounds like a good run. I would try to keep in some of those petals. We don't really want a long game against Pile because they eventually shred our hand and have us pinned between Strix and Jace and access to snap Edict or something. Ground Seals are great against Pile, you may not need the full 3 Decay because Brutality deals nicely with their Strix. Why Surgical? Leaving in 1-2 Needles might be good because of Jace or sometimes the 2-3 of Wasteland, depending on the build. I have been playing with Dryad arbor and I've found it much more effective than Factory, and you can play it maindeck without too much trouble. It sounds like you may be overboarding against Pile and slowing down the combo plan a bit too much, that's my two cents.

I think ur right, next time I'll try to stay as fast as I can. But Needle looks really bad in my eye because with Kolaghan's Command it will not stay long on the battlefield. Although Jace is the only good target, I never saw a list running more than a 1off Wasteland. Thanks 4 ur tips.



How is the manabase running for you without fetches? Seems suboptimal. Or does it work really well?

The manabase worked really great for me. No fear of Submerge, lands in grave for Deathrite, no manascrew against Stifle. I have some Bayous, but I like the manabase like it is and never had any problems. I only wanted the 24th land, so I decided to play Karakas in the maindeck.

[Namida]

I got first place in another event in my area. As I mentioned before, I decided to test out more discard in my sideboard over Spheres; I played a sideboard with Inquisition of Kozilek (over Collective Brutality). As expected I never wanted Spheres, and the only time I felt bad about having Inquisition over Brutality was in my finals match against Dredge--I lost Game 1 to blocking Narcomebas, then won Game 2 with Abrupt Decay and Sejiri Steppe to get past them (this is the only combo deck where discard does literally nothing and Brutality as extra removal would have helped). I didn't actually play against Show and Tell so it remains to be seen how embarrassing Inquisition of Kozilek truly is against them.

Sylvan Safekeeper was MVP. I played a round against what was essentially a Jeff Hoogland meme deck (Land Ad Nauseam) and had to kill with my crappy creatures. My opponent plays Ballista; I Hexmage the Ballista and give my creatures shroud when he tries to shoot them. Then he plays multiple Maze of Ith but I just give my ESG Shroud before combat every turn until he's dead.

This might be a weird question, but...how often do you feel like you're running into people who just don't know how this deck works? I'm beating up people left and right in my area, but I think it is in some part because my opponents are making mistakes and I am punishing them hard for the things they don't know. Stuff like opponents using Wastelands against Stage when there are basics in play, not playing Wasteland ASAP because they don't realize that this deck can make tokens ahead of schedule due to fast mana, etc. If not for telling everyone I have played against in the last month, none of my opponents would have realized that making Marit Lage is a triggered ability they can respond to so I've been playing around getting blown up but my opponents are often unaware that they can blow me up. I don't anticipate that my opponents at the GP will be unaware of the interactions, but many of the interactions do feel like they are unique to this deck and may be things that a player would be unaware of if they didn't have a strong understanding of the rules or a ton of experience against the card Dark Depths so I am curious how often these things are occuring in your matches.

[jdmdave]

Sideboard XLS coming in next 48 hours


I'm starting to think that Solnox's Rite of Consumption Package or the old ugin/emrakul package might be warranted in the new miracles heavy meta.

[Athlete]

This might be a weird question, but...how often do you feel like you're running into people who just don't know how this deck works? I'm beating up people left and right in my area, but I think it is in some part because my opponents are making mistakes and I am punishing them hard for the things they don't know. Stuff like opponents using Wastelands against Stage when there are basics in play, not playing Wasteland ASAP because they don't realize that this deck can make tokens ahead of schedule due to fast mana, etc. If not for telling everyone I have played against in the last month, none of my opponents would have realized that making Marit Lage is a triggered ability they can respond to so I've been playing around getting blown up but my opponents are often unaware that they can blow me up. I don't anticipate that my opponents at the GP will be unaware of the interactions, but many of the interactions do feel like they are unique to this deck and may be things that a player would be unaware of if they didn't have a strong understanding of the rules or a ton of experience against the card Dark Depths so I am curious how often these things are occuring in your matches.

I think you are correct, it comes down to opponents knowing this deck or not. I've been winning a lot when I first played this deck, now that my meta knows how to play against it, my win rate dropped significantly. With opponents making no mistakes anymore against DD its a lot harder to play.

[DNSolver]

@jdmdave

The Ugin / Emrakul package might be worth the slots if you are finding Safekeeper + Library insufficient. I have found them sufficient so far. I would probably play Emrakul, the Promised End so that you don't have to play Cabal Coffers.

That said, Casey has had success with Rite of Consumption, so you could try that.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm monkeying around with Dark Depths, trying to find a mid-range list I like. What's the opinion of seasoned Turbo-Depths players on Dark Confidant and Deathrite Shaman? It gives a grind plan, but obviously the fast mana suffers.

[caseyc]

@jdmdave

The Ugin / Emrakul package might be worth the slots if you are finding Safekeeper + Library insufficient. I have found them sufficient so far. I would probably play Emrakul, the Promised End so that you don't have to play Cabal Coffers.

That said, Casey has had success with Rite of Consumption, so you could try that.

Yeah, I've been very happy with 3x Rite, 1x Boseiju. It changes the whole paradigm of the Miracles matchup because you are the deck with inevitability. They need to establish a fast clock or they are going to lose and there really isn't anything they can do to interrupt it, save for Clique-ing you while you combo. I wrote a little strategy guide a few pages back about using the Rite plan against Miracles. It's pretty important to adjust your lines of play when you play Rite, otherwise it will likely seem underwhelming. That being said, I've never tried the Emrakul Cabal Coffers SB plan--so I don't have a point of comparison.

@Namida I don't see too many people making silly mistakes against me. Once in a while, at smaller events. But rarely in large events or now that the local folks I play with have experience against the deck. Somewhere there was actually a really good article basically explaining some of the trickier interactions/rules related to Dark Depths. Another one that a lot of players miss is understanding the triggers of Depths and interaction with Hexmage. For example, last night I was playing against a Delver player who had a Wasteland out, and I had a Depths and two Hexmages and some other stuff. I activated one hexmage targeting Depths and he immediately activated Wasteland targeting Depths. So that allowed me to activate my second Hexmage and target Depths to allow it's ability to trigger before the Wasteland activation resolved. However, if the Delver player had let the first Hexmage activation resolve, and Wastelanded my Depths with the sacrifice trigger on the stack, my second Hexmage becomes useless because the Depths already has 0 ice counters. Many people miss that one, as it is a little confusing. In that situation I had another work-around :-) But wanted to see if this guy would make life easy by not seeing the line.

The other simple one people miss sometimes is being able to 2-for-1 with a Wasteland if I go to combo using Thespian's Stage and Dark Depths. They will immediately Wasteland one of them, rather than let the copy ability resolve, Legend rule sacrifice happen, then Wasteland the Stage that is coping Depths with the sacrifice trigger on the stack. But usually, as the Depths player, you don't want to put yourself in that situation unless you have a backup combo ready to go.

[jdmdave]

I just don't like how slot intensive the consumption plan is. I will test it online and report back.

I still haven't found a particularly great SnT plan aside from race-and-pray.

[Di]

I'm monkeying around with Dark Depths, trying to find a mid-range list I like. What's the opinion of seasoned Turbo-Depths players on Dark Confidant and Deathrite Shaman? It gives a grind plan, but obviously the fast mana suffers.

I've tried lists using Deathrite Shaman, Dark Confidant, and both together. In theory the idea of making the deck grindier is nice against tougher matchups like Miracles, but most other matchups suffer in practice. There are other means of winning the grindy matchups more consistenty imo.

On Deathrite:

I've had mixed results with this, but found it underwhelming overall. It does have the benefit of being a body on the field which helps shield against Diabolic Edict, and against unsuspecting UW opponents it can draw out a Swords to Plowshares early if they aren't aware what you're on. However, you don't have the means to enable it for mana regularly compared to other Deathrite decks, and any matchups that run Deathrites themselves put you in a bind for mana when you have Deathrite wars jostling for position. That's an unnecessary place to find yourself in against matchups like that where we are already favored. It is a great secondary win condition, but given its primary focus is as a mana source it just isn't consistent enough and slows the deck down. One of the deck's biggest strengths is its speed, and extending the game longer in matchups where you want to close quickly can weaken the deck. It also does suffer from splash damage by drawing random Lightning Bolts and Abrupt Decays and such, which just sucks. On another plus side, I've found that lists using Deathrite could enable the deck to run Cabal Therapy effectively (and by extension Gitaxian Probe), which is just great.

On Dark Confidant:

I've actually replaced my Sylvan Libraries with these and now run three main and absolutely love them. They do suffer the same splash damage from removal as Deathrite does, but at least it isn't tampering with your mana. But like Deathrite, it is a body that can protect from Diabolic Edict or draw Swords to Plowshares. I ended up shifting to Bobs over Sylvans because in many matchups, Sylvan ends up being too dangerous of a card to take the extras from. Four life is a lot. Given the high land count and low curve of the deck, on average you're going to take four life from a Bob over the course of a few turns instead. In general you'll find more cards and not lose as much life, but at the risk of being forced to pay the life over an extended time. As an early play, I prefer having that consistent stream of cards. Another benefit that has led me to using Bobs is that the deck has a much easier time finding black mana that green, so it's technically a little more castable. Against slower decks like Miracles, it still offers great card advantage, and if the opponent is going to waste a Swords or Terminus on it then that's one less to handle Marit Lage. Overall I've found that the matchups where Sylvan is good, Bob is also good. Being a body to block also is highly relevant, and it does at least give another creature to attack with for a plan B. I've personally replaced all of my Libraries with Bobs, but can see a split.

[Mr. Safety]

I've tried lists using Deathrite Shaman, Dark Confidant, and both together. In theory the idea of making the deck grindier is nice against tougher matchups like Miracles, but most other matchups suffer in practice. There are other means of winning the grindy matchups more consistenty imo.

On Deathrite:

I've had mixed results with this, but found it underwhelming overall. It does have the benefit of being a body on the field which helps shield against Diabolic Edict, and against unsuspecting UW opponents it can draw out a Swords to Plowshares early if they aren't aware what you're on. However, you don't have the means to enable it for mana regularly compared to other Deathrite decks, and any matchups that run Deathrites themselves put you in a bind for mana when you have Deathrite wars jostling for position. That's an unnecessary place to find yourself in against matchups like that where we are already favored. It is a great secondary win condition, but given its primary focus is as a mana source it just isn't consistent enough and slows the deck down. One of the deck's biggest strengths is its speed, and extending the game longer in matchups where you want to close quickly can weaken the deck. It also does suffer from splash damage by drawing random Lightning Bolts and Abrupt Decays and such, which just sucks. On another plus side, I've found that lists using Deathrite could enable the deck to run Cabal Therapy effectively (and by extension Gitaxian Probe), which is just great.

Definitely playing Probe/Therapy, it was one of the synergies I was most interested in playing in a depths shell. Probe/Therapy/Pithing Needle all feed off each other in a great way. My intent for Deathrite is to take the place of Elvish Spirit guide as mana acceleration that is also live as an alternative win condition.



On Dark Confidant:

I've actually replaced my Sylvan Libraries with these and now run three main and absolutely love them. They do suffer the same splash damage from removal as Deathrite does, but at least it isn't tampering with your mana. But like Deathrite, it is a body that can protect from Diabolic Edict or draw Swords to Plowshares. I ended up shifting to Bobs over Sylvans because in many matchups, Sylvan ends up being too dangerous of a card to take the extras from. Four life is a lot. Given the high land count and low curve of the deck, on average you're going to take four life from a Bob over the course of a few turns instead. In general you'll find more cards and not lose as much life, but at the risk of being forced to pay the life over an extended time. As an early play, I prefer having that consistent stream of cards. Another benefit that has led me to using Bobs is that the deck has a much easier time finding black mana that green, so it's technically a little more castable. Against slower decks like Miracles, it still offers great card advantage, and if the opponent is going to waste a Swords or Terminus on it then that's one less to handle Marit Lage. Overall I've found that the matchups where Sylvan is good, Bob is also good. Being a body to block also is highly relevant, and it does at least give another creature to attack with for a plan B. I've personally replaced all of my Libraries with Bobs, but can see a split.

I would want both Library and Confidant as a way to generate card advantage and quality over a game. I also feel that Confidant is sometimes really bad in multiples but I always want 4 so I can get the best percentage of drawing him, which is where Cabal Therapy comes in to allow for abusing the flashback option. Deathrite also serves this purpose, especially if he becomes a dead horse.

I should qualify my approach a little more: I'm only playing 2x Depths, 1x Stage. I am definitely leaning on Crop Rotation and Hexmage as redundant enablers more than naturally drawing into the lands. I understand that it sacrifices the protection from countermagic. My metagame has only a few blue-based fair decks, a couple of delver players and a couple miracles players. I see a lot of Chalice Stompy variants, Maverick, Pox, Enchantress, Burn.

EDIT: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32165-Bob-Depths&p=1037704#post1037704

[Ribo]

I top 8 a 81 player tournament in the Netherlands with this awesome 75 beauties https://www.facebook.com/dutchopenseries/photos/pcb.1302594516550831/1302594419884174/?type=3&theater&ifg=1
I went in 2nd seat undefeated.

You can see me play the quarterfinal here around the 9:00 clock.: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/232652279. I know i haven't play this match to my full potential but it was a long day (i was writing more excuses but he! you know how it works)

You can see me play against an elves player around 4:32

i do have very good results with the deck overall, i still want to tune the deck a bit. So if you have suggestions please let me know.

[Wiktul]

I top 8 a 81 player tournament in the Netherlands with this awesome 75 beauties https://www.facebook.com/dutchopenseries/photos/pcb.1302594516550831/1302594419884174/?type=3&theater&ifg=1
I went in 2nd seat undefeated.

You can see me play the quarterfinal here around the 9:00 clock.: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/232652279. I know i haven't play this match to my full potential but it was a long day (i was writing more excuses but he! you know how it works)

You can see me play against an elves player around 4:32

i do have very good results with the deck overall, i still want to tune the deck a bit. So if you have suggestions please let me know.

I've been watching you live and wondered "Why the hell the description of this deck is RiboDepths?! Is there some wierd mechanic I haven't seen in cards he played so far?" Well, now I know ;) Really good performance, especially in so diversed meta.

[filln]

I top 8 a 81 player tournament in the Netherlands with this awesome 75 beauties https://www.facebook.com/dutchopenseries/photos/pcb.1302594516550831/1302594419884174/?type=3&theater&ifg=1

Nice work! Few questions:

Why Fatal Push in the main? What creatures are you afraid of?
Why Leyline of the Void in the side instead of Surgical Extraction?

[chaosjace]

I have had people sit down to play and even after seeing fetch bayou thoughtseize, still think I am on life from the loam. Pretty great.

[Ribo]

@Wiktul - thanks

@Filln- Push is great agains opposing DRS, (fliped) Delver, Strix's, d&t creatures, Magus ect. I wish i drew 1 in the quarter final agains his agent.
Void is wider agains lands, (heavily played in my meta), dredge, and ofcourse reanimator.

I used to play 1 surgical in the main, but every time i drew it it felt more like a fun off. This weekend i tried the sylvan safekeeper instead. It think this is a mutch better choice.

The flex slots in the main i feel now is 1 land, probably the 4th wasteland or the Bog (totaly not a fan of this card), and the Library.

[Barthalamou]

I've been thinking about the sideboard a lot lately.
I'm pretty set on the following: 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Karakas, 2 Rite of Consumption, 2 Surgical Extraction, 2 Abrupt Decay, 2 Not of this World, 1 Mishras Factory.
The slots I'm not so sure about are 4 Mindbreak Trap. I like Mindbreak Trap because it's good vs Storm, BR Reanimator, Belcher, and Elves. The toughest matchup out of these is Storm. I've been thinking of swapping our the 4 Mindbreak Traps for 3 Inquisition of Kozilek and 1 more Surgical Extraction or Boseiju. I feel the Inquisitions would give us more game VS Storm and creature based matchups where Duress kind of fails. I don't like the Thorn or Sphere plan because it slows us down as well as them and I feel it not hitting the board until t2 can just be too late, same with Library in the storm matchup. The Inquisitions would also be great vs Show and Tell which isn't huge in my local meta but I know it's been one of my worst matchups. Probably Miracles, Show and Tell, Storm.
Edit: Something a buddy of mine just pointed out from the 12 post forums is that you can Mikokoro in response to an infernal tutor.

[Bl4ckbird92]

What do You think of my List, i am working on it for One year now and it does well for me.
4x Lotus Petal
4x ESG
1x Dark Ritual (Very Nice i think)
3x Not of this world
4x Sylvan scrying
2x in to The North
4x Crop Rotation
4x Vampire hexmage
4x duress
4x Thoughtseize
3x pithing needle
3x Urborg
4x Verdant catacombs
3x Bayou
1x sc forrest
1x sc Swamp
1x GQ
1x Steppe
1x Bog
4x Dark depths
4x thespians stage

———-
4x decay
2x golgari charm
2x faerie macabre
1x Sylvan libary
1x Not of this world
1x dryad arbor
1x Karakas
1x Thorn of amethyst
1x pithing needle
1x Sylvan safekeeper


Hi at at all i am new to this Forum 🙌🤗

[ashent]

I think it's pretty close to the lists most of us play, but everyone moved off Not Of This World quite awhile ago and I haven't missed it. It's really quite poor compared to Safekeeper because it can't protect your Hexmage when you need it to and it's a one use card whereas Safekeeper can occasionally dominate a game being used 3 or 4 times.

It's fine to use Into the North if you like it, I prefer Map and I'll tell you why: Map gets us out of Blood Moons postboard.

[jolssoni]

Made the finals of a 37 player tournament today, scooped em after a split to a friend (his report can be found here -> http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32181-Steel-Stompy-2-0-Ravager-Shops&p=1038089&viewfull=1#post1038089 <-) because I didn't realize to ask whether the bye gets transferred down if need be (I have a bye for every main event of the local series this year already due to winning last year's invitational).

List:
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/team-greece-turbo-debts/

R1 Mirror 2-0
We both discard to hell and back, I have the better topdecks.
Can't remember exact boarding, forgot to bring Karakas in :--D Didn't get punished

R2 Miracles with red splash for Moon and blasts 2-1
Lose G1 due to not finding protection and getting double Terminus'd, proceed to win games 2-3 by just having combo+Ground Seal as a fail safe+protection.
-4 Pithing Needle (only real target is Jace and if the opponent taps out for it and untaps with instead of dying you've basically lost already)
-3 Lotus Petal
+2 Ground Seal
+3 Sylvan Library
+2 Abrupt Decay

R3 Merfolk 2-0
No Vial in either game to threaten Image/Clique/Harbinger IIRC so pretty uncontested kills.
-1 Pithing Needle
-1 Bojuka Bog
-3 Duress
+4 Abrupt Decay
+1 Karakas

R4 RUG Delver 1-2
Games 1 and 3 Stifle your fetches, waste your lands, bang your mom, kill you with Goose you can't decay.
-3 Expedition Map (stifle me baby)
-1 Dryad Arbor
+4 Abrupt Decay

R5 Blood Moon+Chalice+Bridge 0-2
G1 lose because you can't really win.
G2 I find Rite of Consumption and see about 15 different cards with Library in a few turns, don't find a single Decay vs 2x Blood Moon and 2x Magus of the Moon. Could try Maelstorm Pulse if you face this deck regularly (?), matchups feels like ass no matter what you do unless they mulligan themselves out of the game.
+4 Abrupt Decay
+3 Sylvan Library
+2 Rite of Consumption
-4 Pithing Needle
-3 Duress
-1 Sejiri Steppe
-1 Bojuka Bog

R6 Grixis Delver 2-0
G1 Needle Wasteland, kill them.
G2 One Marit Lage gets Edicted after I Decay his Delver, no Surgical on Depths, combo again after a few turns of draw-go.
+4 Abrupt Decay
+2 Ground Seal
-3 Sylvan Safekeeper
can't remember what else. Arguments can be made for Sejiri Steppe if you're not afraid of Submerge, 1 Crop Rotation since it's the perfect Force target and you usually can only afford to cast one, Expedition Map gets stifled and n copies of Duress since Decay is a tempo-positive alternative.

Top8 in 7th seed

Quarterfinals, DnT 2-0

G1 Opponent has Batterskull, mom and two SFMs, one of which drops a Jitte. I have Depths+Hexmage ready to go. He equips Jitte on Batterskull instead of one of the Mystics, missing out on sure +4 life so I crop rotate Ghost Quarter to blow up Karakas, block with Hexmage, sac untap with Marit Lage swing and don't have to fade one draw of plow/Flickerwisp/another Karakas.
G2 His curve is mom, Thalia, Recruiter->get a Magus of the Moon, which would essentially end the game on the spot given my hand (zero needles) and mom protecting Magus vs Decay. I have turn 3 Hexmage, pop Depths with Rite of Consumption in hand but no protection so need to fade one draw with hands crossed. He untaps but draws nothing relevant.
+4 Abrupt Decay
+2 Rite of Consumption
+3 Sylvan Library
-3 Lotus Petal
-3 Duress
-1 Dryad Arbor
-1 Bojuka Bog (if he runs and successfully resolves Surgical Extraction I guess congratulations)
-1 Sylvan Safekeeper (they have access to less Swords than Snapcaster decks and this guy can get Revoked. Can't really block and because there's no Chalice or Force I can Crop Rotate for Steppe uncontested).

Semifinals vs Merfolk, same friend from swiss, 2-1
Basically the same deal as in the swiss, except in game two Hexmage got named with Sorcerous Spyglass followed by Chalice and lord+Mutavault beats, no natural combo or even a green source in the first 2-3 turns. Game 3 he goes for Echoing Truth on my two Hexmages when I have Depths on board. I sac the target and because of the brilliance of Magic's game mechanics I wait until his end with one Hexmage still intact (no Vial and no mana for Harbinger), crack Depths and win.

Llanowar Wastes is mostly for budget, but it's the best BG dual that's not a Forest for dodging Submerge. Blooming Marsh loses games due to not coming untapped as the fourth land for natural Stage+two lands -> Depths, more than the occasional 1-2 damage from Llanowar I'd say, depends on the amount of Storm and Burn with good draws of course.

Deck is fun and keeps overperforming.

[Bl4ckbird92]

Congratulations mister =)
we play a very strong deck right now.
i saw 3 mindbreak traps in your sideboard, how do you fell with traps in the sideboard?
from my point of vew, i would say we have a very good combo matchup and we realy want some more stuff against DnT, Miracles, Meerfolks, Lands, etc...but what do you think about that?

my problem with the deck is, i have so many times problems to get the right mana aktive, no green or black sometimes and so often no coloured sorce of mana, should i try more than 4 fetchlands? i dont know this makes me so sad...i have no way to fix this problem...

[Bl4ckbird92]

I think it's pretty close to the lists most of us play, but everyone moved off Not Of This World quite awhile ago and I haven't missed it. It's really quite poor compared to Safekeeper because it can't protect your Hexmage when you need it to and it's a one use card whereas Safekeeper can occasionally dominate a game being used 3 or 4 times.

It's fine to use Into the North if you like it, I prefer Map and I'll tell you why: Map gets us out of Blood Moons postboard.

thanks for your comment,

i understand youre opinion, but i would say, in to the north helps us also out of moon, becouse we can fetch for green and play it for our swamp, and it gives us so many times a big tempo plus, espacialy good when our op cant handle the depths ;)

same with the safekeeper, i understand everyone who switched from not from this world to safekeeper, but i would say we dont want a long game in every kind of game and notw is the fastest way to protect our big 20/20 flyer

our opponent knows when we have the safekeeper also, and can use it in their favour, other than notw =)

[jolssoni]

Congratulations mister =)
we play a very strong deck right now.
i saw 3 mindbreak traps in your sideboard, how do you fell with traps in the sideboard?
from my point of vew, i would say we have a very good combo matchup and we realy want some more stuff against DnT, Miracles, Meerfolks, Lands, etc...but what do you think about that?

my problem with the deck is, i have so many times problems to get the right mana aktive, no green or black sometimes and so often no coloured sorce of mana, should i try more than 4 fetchlands? i dont know this makes me so sad...i have no way to fix this problem...

Mindbreak Traps are there to basically make sure your tournament doesn't get ruined by some goofers on Belcher, Oops or Spanish while being great for obvious reasons vs Storm (discard their discard to protect them and then combo them out at your own leisure), and BR Reanimator (Going off turn 1 is always their best play and this is free interaction given they almost always need a combination of way to bin a fatty+animation+fast mana, unless they have the Unmask->play a land->Reanimate nuts, so Trap's very rarely a blank. If they play around it and you get to untap you just discard/Bog/Ground Seal them). My general plan vs Aggro Loam/DNT/Maverick/Lands is to just find a single Rite with Libraries and then fling a token as soon as you make one dodging Karakas/Maze of Ith etc, it's risky vs DNT and Maverick since they can Swords their own dudes but you can't beat them all. Aggro Loam can't if they run out Chalice on 1, Scavenging Ooze is slow and can be Decay'd and Lands can't gain life. I think those slots are plenty vs them.

I don't usually have color problems unless I mulligan to oblivion or get aggressively Wastelanded before I can land a Needle, you can run 8 fast mana and/or more colored sources if you like but I feel the mainboard slots are pretty fixed for a reason and the former are _really_ bad topdecks.

My biggest gripes with Into the North are that it puts Depths into play even when you can't afford it (eg. vs Wasteland when you don't have Needle) but you really need to find one, the alternative being just doing nothing, and it doesn't fetch any given land in the deck so it has less utility especially in the long game.

[caseyc]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=119266

I have so many questions for this man.

[ccab]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=119266

I have so many questions for this man.

You and me both. Personally not the biggest fan of a white splash. To each his own

[filln]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=119266

I have so many questions for this man.

I'm kind of loving that spicy Rancor in the main. Jam it on a Vampire Hexmage and you've got a 4/1 first strike trample. Then when you sacrifice it to make Marit Lage, you get the opportunity to put it on the token too.

[Mr. Safety]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=119266

I have so many questions for this man.

I'll ask him, he plays at my LGS. I spoke with Cory about the Rancor addition about a month ago, and he described the Rancor as a way to get past Baleful Strix, flipped Delvers, Souls tokens, etc that can prolong the game for 1-2 turns and find answers. With Confidants it also provides more chumps for fair beats, which can be protected with Safekeeper. Hitting for 4 a turn is actually a decent clock, turning the alternative wincon of hitting with dorks better. The white splash is new to me, but the sideboard supports a decent beatdown plan with a surprising amount of threats (which are key against certain decks like Priest/Teeg for Elves, Thalia for storm, etc.)

I'll get his full take on it, and how effective the white splash was. Pretty sure he did a feature match as well.

EDIT: Here is another version that I was eyeballing, with DRS/Confidant as the main plan. I'm a little surprised at the complete lack of Pithing Needle, but that's probably because he was playing 4x Wasteland himself.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18654&d=316330&f=LE

[Rancor85]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=119266

I have so many questions for this man.




I'm Cory Abrams and I wanna start off for apologizing for that terrible on camera match. I had been sick the entire weekend and had been running off energy drinks to keep me going. By the time that round came up I was half alive it felt like and had become extremely nervous going on camera. With all that and knowing this round was almost a win and in for me, I was playing poorly. I will do a more detailed tournament report later. The worst of it all I won the last 2 rounds to x-3. I was confident I made it but when the dust settled, jim Davis bounced me out by less than a point on tie breakers. I was the only x-3 that didn't make it in.

[DNSolver]

Sorry about the breaker math. I really like your take on Depths, and congratulations on your result.

Could you explain your hatebear choices, such as 3-mana Thalia? Why these hatebears over Sylvan Library?

[Claymore]

With all the concerns on Blood Moon, Magus, various DNT things...what about Culling Scales in the side for those long, draw go grindy type matches?

We largely don't play permanents other than Ground Seal, Hexmage, or Lotus Petal - aside from other hate pieces of course. It has some use against:

Blood Moon Stompy
Taxes
Lands (Mox, Exploration, Tracker)

Not sure if against Miracles or anything else, but food for though.

I can't access any lists, but it would replace the likes of Decay, Golgari Charm, or Not of this World.

It tends to slow down the match as the opponent has to choose between racing the Scale, or feeding it more food.

[Rancor85]

Sorry about the breaker math. I really like your take on Depths, and congratulations on your result.

Could you explain your hatebear choices, such as 3-mana Thalia? Why these hatebears over Sylvan Library?



Yeah the breaker beat at the end was savage especially with half the top 8 being delver and if I was in, Jim Davis(miracles) would be out. So I can't take credit for the list it was actually a Japanese player Soejima Naoki who came up with it. I have had depths built for a while and never really commited to it. I actually was pointed in your direction Dnsolver by my buddy's Adam Wallace and Christopher Stitson when I first started down the depths road. I kept seeing essentially the same lists with only a few differences which made me look for something a little different. When I saw this list I fell in love with how wacky it was and saw alot if potential having the white splash and bobs main. The bobs over library solved a problem I was having with opponents gaining life to get out of range for the crack back. Also provided extra dudes around edict effects and blockers for faster aggro strategies. Also acted as a back up plan in case depths was surgicaled (Which came up a few times this weekend). The rancor(61st card I know lol) also helped with this line of play to put pressure on early if needed, aswell as trampling over strix/ delver . I can't say enough about the rancor, it hands down won alot of games this weekend. Wether it was beat down on a hexmage or a 4/1 first strike wall that bought me time to assemble.
The hate bears I hadn't changed because this weekend I was really just planning on testing the list to make tweaks later, it just happened to perform well as is. The package kind of explains itself except the 3 drop thalia. It was surprisingly good against lands and eldrazi. I even won a game against teps with it out to slow down the land drops because of all there fetches. I think after everything I could argue that it out performed guardian and would consider cutting the 2 to go to 3 heretic. Guardian would save me from dying early to combo but also would slow our plan down to close out the game. Heretic is one sided and was also great against sneak attack decks. I will have to test that more. I would also cut the containment priest for a second teeg. Now to cut this down to a respectable 60 cards haha. I will get to an actual report soon once I transfer my notes.

[MoonDark]

The mirror:

Hello everyone, been a lurker so far!

I was wondering how to play the mirror assuming a stock list like DNSolver without the rites package in the SB?

How should I approach the match? What to board in/out?

Thanks!

[jdmdave]

Take out hte combo and beatdown with ESG/Hexmage....I'm serious.

+1 needle, +1 library, +1 karakas, +2 surgical, +1 mishra's factory
-3 dark depths, -1 bojuka bog, -3 lotus petal

[jolssoni]

The mirror:

Hello everyone, been a lurker so far!

I was wondering how to play the mirror assuming a stock list like DNSolver without the rites package in the SB?

How should I approach the match? What to board in/out?

Thanks!

With my list I board
+4 Abrupt Decay
+1 Karakas
+3 Sylvan Library
+2 Rite of Consumption
-3 Lotus Petal
-1 Dryad Arbor
-3 Expedition Map (get blown out less by Needle and make them more asymmetric)
-3 Duress (doesn't hit everything, most importantly Hexmage)

The mirror's a subtle dance of back and forth if the other player just doesn't have the nuts or support the philosophy of boarding out the combo altogether. If both players draw all their Needles and everything gets stuck you just start digging for either Hexmages to beat down with or Decays while Thoughtseizing your opponent to see what they're working with. If you run Surgical it's gas for obvious reasons in the mirror. If you draw Karakas and can't crop rotate into it it becomes extremely important to not let them copy your Depths and then untap into Sejiri Steppe+kill you without you being able to do anything about it. Rite should be instantly game in all situations, since I haven't seen a successful list run life gain yet (other than DRS). If your opponent is on the board out combo plan I'd leave in Dryad Arbor since it can double block a Hexmage with ESG if your opponent attacks into a fetch.

[solnox]

I usually board out some number of dark depths in the mirror and go mostly for the rite kill

something like -2/3 petals. bog, -1 safekeeper, -3 depths +Rite package, +library. +3 decay, +2 surgical +karakas,

[solnox]

if anyone else wants to actively discuss depths list, the lands discord has a depths channel

[MoonDark]

if anyone else wants to actively discuss depths list, the lands discord has a depths channel

How can I join? :smile:

[solnox]

https://discordapp.com/invite/jthKsC5

this should still work.

[p01ng]

Someone pointed out this card from the Dominaria leak out over in the MTGLegacy subreddit:

(Spoilers, obviously.)


Damping Sphere

2

Artifact


If a land is tapped for two or more mana, it produces C instead of any other type and amount.

Each spell a player casts costs 1 more to cast for each other spell that player has cast this turn.

Looks like a great replacement for Sphere/Thorn?

[Athlete]

Looks like a great replacement for Sphere/Thorn?

I think so! It is also great against Red Stompy, Eldrazi and other City of Traitor/Ancient Tomb decks.

[ccab]

Someone pointed out this card from the Dominaria leak out over in the MTGLegacy subreddit:

(Spoilers, obviously.)



Looks like a great replacement for Sphere/Thorn?

Damping sphere seems so good for turbo depths! Gaea's cradle tapping for one seems pretty good lol

[solnox]

the sphere looks worth testing. lock rocks are always worth trying

[ccab]

the sphere looks worth testing. lock rocks are always worth trying

I think it will end up being a sb slot. Turbo depths being a land based combo bodes well with damping sphere imho

[Mr. Froggy]

Hey guys, this is my list:

Lands:
2x Bayou
1x Llanowar Wastes
1x Snow-Covered Forest
1x Snow-Covered Swamp
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Sejiri Steppe
4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian's Stage
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Bojuka Bog

Creatures;
4x Vampire Hexmage
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
2x Sylvan Safekeeper

Others:
3x Pithing Needle
4x Lotus Petal
2x Sylvan Library
4x Crop Rotation
2x Duress
2x Hymn to Tourach
4x Thoughtseize
4x Sylvan Scrying

My SB is a bit all over since MTGO's meta is all over:
3x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Ground Seal
1x Steely Resolve
1x Choke
1x Primeval Titan
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Toxic Deluge
1x Karakas
2x Sphere of Resistance

Thoughts?

[jolssoni]

Hey guys, this is my list:


Hymn doesn't give you information nor hit relevant interaction from a decent sized hand with any consistency, not sure why you'd play it. Name of the game is not card advantage but bash you with Marit Lage ASAP after you have no answers if you ever had any.

Why Leyline of Sanctity? It's fairly useless vs Storm who's bringing every bounce effect they have for the matchup anyway, you can't brainstorm extra copies away, and if you want protection from turn 1 decks you're better off running some split of Surgical Extraction and Mindbreak Trap. Burn is a bye and you don't care about Cabal Therapy a decent amount of the time. Fetch Dryad Arbor and hardcast ESG in addition to Safekeepers are all the edict protection you need.

When and how were you planning to resolve Primetime?

Choke seems redundant since DRS+cantrips.dec are already among our best matchups.

1-of Steely Resolve seems unnecessary given you have no way to tutor for it or card selection besides 2 Libraries, just run 3 Safekeepers.

Deluge is fine if you're facing lots of DNT, but I'd run 4 Decays/3 Decays 1 Krosan Grip if you ever want to win through a Blood Moon.

[solnox]

what are the leylines for?

Prime time seems super slow in any Matchup you play it in.

choke doesnt do enough even vs miracles

Steely Resolve is hot garbage and you're better off with safekeeper

deluge being 3 mana hurts a lot vs dnt's taxing effects. try out golgari charm/marsh casualties if you want a sweeper effect


I've 5-0'd twice in the past week with the following SB

2x Surgical Extraction
2x Rite of Consumption
1x Marsh Casualties
1x Library
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Boseiju
1x Karakas
1x Mishras factory
1x Pithing Needle
2x Thorn of Amethyst

[solnox]

a note to all who are playing snow-covered basics w/o into the north.

There's no reason to give up free information to your opponent with those lands.

[Nathan_Hsu]

Has anyone extensively tested and/or have an opinion on:

1. The usefulness of Dryad Arbor? I see more and more lists dropping it, but I was under the impression that it was a good hedge against edict effects. Is it purely a meta call? Or is it just bad? I hate top decking it for sure. Maybe a sideboard slot?

2. Sylvan library. The old paradigm was likely 3 in the sideboard, now some lists are 1:1 splits.

3. 3rd Exp map vs 4th lotus petal? Again, is it a speed vs consistency thing?


Sent from my MHA-L29 using Tapatalk

[Doneval]

Any opinions on this weekend's 9th place deck from SCG Open: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/972116#paper?

I can kind of get behind the maindeck Dark Confidants, but... Rancor? Really?? Did he win any games with Vampire Hexmage beats with Rancor? That kind of blew my mind.

[Mr. Froggy]

Any opinions on this weekend's 9th place deck from SCG Open: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/972116#paper?

I can kind of get behind the maindeck Dark Confidants, but... Rancor? Really?? Did he win any games with Vampire Hexmage beats with Rancor? That kind of blew my mind.

I think Rancor was to go over flyers

[Doneval]

I think Rancor was to go over flyers

Oooh, I see! OK, I like it much better then. Because it can help with the single-turn kill to avoid an edict, but it also helps with the Vampire beatdown plan. Interesting! I'm still not sure I'd cut a map for it though.

[Mr. Froggy]

Hymn doesn't give you information nor hit relevant interaction from a decent sized hand with any consistency, not sure why you'd play it. Name of the game is not card advantage but bash you with Marit Lage ASAP after you have no answers if you ever had any.

Why Leyline of Sanctity? It's fairly useless vs Storm who's bringing every bounce effect they have for the matchup anyway, you can't brainstorm extra copies away, and if you want protection from turn 1 decks you're better off running some split of Surgical Extraction and Mindbreak Trap. Burn is a bye and you don't care about Cabal Therapy a decent amount of the time. Fetch Dryad Arbor and hardcast ESG in addition to Safekeepers are all the edict protection you need.

When and how were you planning to resolve Primetime?

Choke seems redundant since DRS+cantrips.dec are already among our best matchups.

1-of Steely Resolve seems unnecessary given you have no way to tutor for it or card selection besides 2 Libraries, just run 3 Safekeepers.

Deluge is fine if you're facing lots of DNT, but I'd run 4 Decays/3 Decays 1 Krosan Grip if you ever want to win through a Blood Moon.


I just liked that Hymn could hit problem lands, if ever it came up.

I sniped the important cards in their hands with TS or Duress and rip the rest apart with Hymn but I can understand what you mean.

[jdmdave]

5-0ed with 74/75 solnox's list, except golgari charm over marsh casualties. I think we did it.

[malekith]

Any advice for sideboarding against Spiral Tides deck?
Yesterday I was confronting it with bad results. In fact it plays ethernal turns using and re-using (playing Time Spirak) almost all the deck. Even I had created the ML token fast at the start of one of his turns but during this same turn he filtered all his deck and sideboard (using the blue wish) until find the proper card to unsummon ML.

Enviado desde mi WAS-LX1A mediante Tapatalk

[Namida]

5-0ed with 74/75 solnox's list, except golgari charm over marsh casualties. I think we did it.

You're talking about the list with Rite of Consumption, right? Is there a reason to play Boseiju and Rite of Consumption other than Miracles? I know you're preparing for the GP in Kyoto. If you take a look at the deck database on Hareruya (minus the MTGO data), does Miracles seem like enough of the Japanese metagame for you to want to devote slots to it? It might be a bit of a deviation in terms of playing an optimal deck, but since it's a team event I'm just planning to depend on my teammates if I run into white decks since Death and Taxes is in a bad spot at the moment and Miracles doesn't seem to be a huge part of the meta. Honestly, I'm more afraid of running into Depths mirrors or Lands.