[Deck] Turbo Depths

[crowe_1]

Makes sense. I guess we aren’t a deck where we would be mulliganing to Leyline necessarily so Planar Void might be more widely useful if topdecked in the first couple of turns.

[adrieng]

Splitted top 2 of a 22 tornament players :

macthup eldrazi 2-0, omnishow 2-1, death and taxes 2-0, grixis delver 2-0, draw into top8

top8 storm 2-1 lucky here this matchup is slightly unfavorable in testing , death and taxes 2-0, split top 2.

I was happy with everything, with others list side changed a littel -1 DON +1 safekeeper, -3 bomb +3 decay.

In current meta the maze maindeck is way better than bojuka bog +1 maze -1 bojuka bog

The deck loses to blood moon and ratchte bomb is not a good answer, I prefer decay for now.

With others side tech against miracle I am fine not keepint the needles they are too slow so what changes with my previous side tech :

+3 safekeeper +3 surgical +3 decay -2 map -1 maze -2 scrying -4 needle


The bad matchups : moon stompy
slightly unfavorable : BR rea, sneak show, storm, lands
50-50 : UB shadow, affinity (depending of the number of karakas and bridge), elf, death and taxes, infect

others matchups are favorable to my testing.



// 60 Maindeck
// 8 Artifact
4 Expedition Map
4 Pithing Needle

// 4 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage

// 4 Enchantment
4 Sylvan Library

// 4 Instant
4 Crop Rotation

// 26 Land
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
3 Llanowar Wastes
4 Khalni Garden
1 Maze of Ith

// 14 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Duress


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Creature
SB: 3 Sylvan Safekeeper

// 3 Enchantment
SB: 3 Dread of Night

// 6 Instant
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog

// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge

[Mr. Safety]

I'm back onto this deck, about 80% sure I'm playing this at a local 1k in a couple weeks. I was a big advocate for DRS/Confidant when DRS was legal, but I have found that even just Confidant puts the deck right where I want it (a little less all-in, better at splitting the defense and grinding.) Here is the list I have sleeved ATM (cutting 1x Depths, 1x Stage, and 1x random card to get in 3x Dark Confidant.)

4x Vampire Hexmage
3x Dark Confidant
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Lotus Petal
4x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
2x Collective Brutality
3x Pithing Needle
4x Crop Rotation
2x Expedition Map
2x Sylvan Scrying
2x Sylvan Library

3x Dark Depths
3x Thespian's Stage
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Bayou
2x Blooming Marsh
2x Swamp
1x Forest
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Dryad Arbor

Sideboard
3x Not of this World
3x Faerie Macabre
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Toxic Deluge
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
2x Rite of Consumption


I'm definitely trying to maximize my first turn play with 8x fast mana and 5 2-drops that can really boost the game (Confidant, Library.) Brutality is there as a discard + removal for things like Baleful Strix/flipped Delvers/Flickerwisp. I have an abnormal amount of Death and Taxes in my local metagame (which I know to be, at the least, a challenging matchup.) My maindeck/sideboard is designed to be less all-in and better at grinding a fair plan. Not of this World is to counter Karakas/Swords to Plowshares (straight in for Dark Confidant, getting dinged for 7 with Bob is a no-go.) I have the Surgical Extractions, I was just looking at Faerie Macabre as another way to go an alternative path of 'play anamic dorks, chip shot for 2-4 a turn'. I love that it's a turn zero play (similar to Extraction.) Extraction is definitely better against Sneak/Show, Lands, and Storm, all of which I rarely see. BR Reanimator and Dredge are both common. I could easily jam in 2x Extraction if that's just a better plan.

If any of my card choices seem sub-par, I welcome feedback. I know that Dread of Night is very good, not sure if I can acquire them before 9/15 when the tournament happens. I have Engineered Plague, which can stack nicely against Elves/Merfolk/Goblins (not that I expect too many of these, but at the local, anything is possible.) Just keep in mind I'm trying to be resilient with maindeck Bob/Library while still maintaining a semblance of Turbo-capability with fast mana and 8 overall tutors.

EDIT: I forgot I had Rite of Consumption x2 in the board. Also, is Inquisition of Kozilek a consideration instead of Duress? It doesn't hit Force of Will or Jace (I figure the main targets for Duress) but IoK can still get Swords to Plowshares, almost all of D&T's creatures, hits most of storm, and nabs Snapcaster (if we're lucky, lol), and is just generally better as a tempo play than Duress against fair decks because it can nab threats.

[Sinkhole]

I have done a few testings with Turbo Depths so far and I really enjoy the deck. It`s so much fun to play and versataile for a two card combo. I play with two Librarys main and think they are really good, that makes it a bit slower but give Depths a little bit better edge against Miracles and other Controll decks, where the games go naturally a bit slower and you have to wait for the right time to combo off. Further it really helps to recover, when the Monster has gotten a hit by Swords. And that`s just an impression and I am not sure, if I am right wiht my thoughts, but most of the time I found Bog really useless, with the upcoming rise of SnS I most of the time would rather have Karakas main or a Maze and it`s still good against Reanimator. Would that be a bad call, or I am right with that now?

[Mr. Safety]

I think it's fine to swap Karakas for Bog main deck. I actually swapped mine out because what you say makes sense: it's still relevant against Reanimator (Griselbrand) and Sneak/Show is getting more prevalent again. Bog main deck was really a concession to having a utility land against the more common graveyard interactions like Deathrite Shaman and Past in Flames. Storm, even though it just won Eternal Weekend, is fairly rare nowadays. It has completely disappeared at my LGS, replaced with Death and Taxes and Stoneblade variants.

It's also notable that even if you do run face-first into Dredge/Manaless dredge you can still race them with Marit Lage, then board in your surgicals/bog and have a really decent matchup.

Maze of Ith I'm still a little iffy on...it can buy you time, but Karakas does the job better in most situations. It can stall a Knight of the Reliquary, Death's Shadow, or Gurmag Angler but all of those threats are pathetic compared to just making a 20/20 and protecting it for a turn. I don't think Maze of Ith is bad, not at all, it just might not be necessary.

I've been on 2 Libraries maindeck in every green-based deck I play in Legacy for the past 5 years. Card is bonkers.

[Mr. Safety]

Has anyone tried 1xGolgari Rot Farm? It wouldn't be for mana, it would be for 2 specific reasons:

1) Saves lands from Wasteland/Ghost Quarter with Crop Rotation
2) Allows EtB lands to be used a 2nd time (Bojuka Bog, Sejiri Steppe)

Thoughts?

[adrieng]

Mr. Safety
Has anyone tried 1xGolgari Rot Farm? It wouldn't be for mana, it would be for 2 specific reasons:

1) Saves lands from Wasteland/Ghost Quarter with Crop Rotation
2) Allows EtB lands to be used a 2nd time (Bojuka Bog, Sejiri Steppe)

good players shouldn't waste you until they are forced to do so (with a needle or an activation of ghost quarter on their wasteland)
other than that for bad players who wastes you you can save a land by saccing with crop the land that get targeted,
and to reuse and ETB that might be useful but you better play a second sejiri stepe/bojuka bog, i think.

Other than that Maze of ith maindeck is very useful, i don't see why you wouldnt play it it helps plays around wasteland get copyed by stage to stall, help gaining some time.
There is really no reason not to play it, even a second in side has been useful against death and taxes but I have no space anymore.

[Mr. Safety]

good players shouldn't waste you until they are forced to do so (with a needle or an activation of ghost quarter on their wasteland)
other than that for bad players who wastes you you can save a land by saccing with crop the land that get targeted,
and to reuse and ETB that might be useful but you better play a second sejiri stepe/bojuka bog, i think.

Other than that Maze of ith maindeck is very useful, i don't see why you wouldnt play it it helps plays around wasteland get copyed by stage to stall, help gaining some time.
There is really no reason not to play it, even a second in side has been useful against death and taxes but I have no space anymore.

Being still (fairly) new to Depths, I forget sometimes that Stage allows utility lands to double up. I'll get the Maze in there. What do you suggest I cut? I see 3 options: Swamp, Sylvan Library, Collective Brutality.

How do you feel about Bog sideboard? It seems correct to me, at least at the local level.

I'll leave the Rot Farm out for now; just a little too cute, and with the interactions available already it seems too deep. I was just curious if anyone had tried it.

[ashent]

>I forget sometimes that Stage allows utility lands to double up.

The ETBs on our utility lands don't trigger on Thespian Stage activations. The Stage is already on the field.

[Mr. Safety]

>I forget sometimes that Stage allows utility lands to double up.

The ETBs on our utility lands don't trigger on Thespian Stage activations. The Stage is already on the field.

Of course. I only meant Maze of Ith, Ghost Quarter, opposing Wastelands, Dryad Arbor, Mishra's Factory, etc.

[Sinkhole]

Hey guys,

I have a lot of U-Decks and Miracles in my local meta, so that means cantripping into oblivion :tongue:. I have two Chains of Mephistopheles laying arround and would love to make them fit into one of my legacy decks. Dephts is the only deck where it could be fitting in. What do you think of this idea of playing one main instead of the 3. Safekeeper or adding two to sideboard, as a alround tech against all blue based decks? Would the chains be a bad idea or a possible choice?

[Mr. Safety]

Hey guys,

I have a lot of U-Decks and Miracles in my local meta, so that means cantripping into oblivion :tongue:. I have two Chains of Mephistopheles laying arround and would love to make them fit into one of my legacy decks. Dephts is the only deck where it could be fitting in. What do you think of this idea of playing one main instead of the 3. Safekeeper or adding two to sideboard, as a alround tech against all blue based decks? Would the chains be a bad idea or a possible choice?

I just can't convince myself to play Safekeeper. It's just too all-in at the expense of a land, and it still does nothing against Terminus. With that freed space, I'm looking to sideboard 2-3 choke. It is one of the best ways to nerf miracles.

The safekeeper slots I swapped out for Not of this World, and I relegated it to the sideboard.

[ashent]

Of course. I only meant Maze of Ith, Ghost Quarter, opposing Wastelands, Dryad Arbor, Mishra's Factory, etc.

Sorry, he was talking specifically about a second copy of ETB lands like Bogs and Steppes when you replied, and the topic got shifted. Just wanted to make sure.

[Hopo]

I just can't convince myself to play Safekeeper. It's just too all-in at the expense of a land, and it still does nothing against Terminus. With that freed space, I'm looking to sideboard 2-3 choke. It is one of the best ways to nerf miracles.

Safekeeper is not the best card to topdeck but it's likely the best card to protect your token from spot removal and edicts.

If you really hate Safekeeper for the cost, there's always Steely Resolve. Not of this World really does nothing when you are facing the typical 2 x answer.

[Athlete]

Hey guys,

I have a lot of U-Decks and Miracles in my local meta, so that means cantripping into oblivion :tongue:. I have two Chains of Mephistopheles laying arround and would love to make them fit into one of my legacy decks. Dephts is the only deck where it could be fitting in. What do you think of this idea of playing one main instead of the 3. Safekeeper or adding two to sideboard, as a alround tech against all blue based decks? Would the chains be a bad idea or a possible choice?

Might be worth testing, just note that it conflicts with sylvan library, a card that would also be great against miracles.

[Mr. Safety]

Safekeeper is not the best card to topdeck but it's likely the best card to protect your token from spot removal and edicts.

If you really hate Safekeeper for the cost, there's always Steely Resolve. Not of this World really does nothing when you are facing the typical 2 x answer.

I play Dark Confidant and Dryad Arbor, both of which add creatures to sacrifice to Edict effects. Confidant also helps me draw extra cards even if I falter, giving me opportunities to stay in the game. Not of this World not only counters Swords to Plowshares but also Karakas and Jace activations. Fighting through 2x answers is going to be tough regardless. I don't want to be sacrificing a land in a deck already tight on land drops (Safekeeper.) Safekeeper also doesn't do anything more than Dryad Arbor in regards to Edict effects.

Steely Resolve I think is unplayable. I haven't seen it in *any* DD lists. I've seen NotW in plenty of lists. The 'gotcha' factor is definitely appealing to me. People can play around Safekeeper, especially given enough time, but playing against 8 discard spells alongside NotW will be challenging.

TL,DR - Dark Confidant plays a similar role, but one that can approach from a different angle. If Confidant draws 1-2 extra cards or even just soaks up removal, I am very happy with that. If unanswered, Confidant will give me absurd card draw to fight through the different threats.

[Sinkhole]

Might be worth testing, just note that it conflicts with sylvan library, a card that would also be great against miracles.

I came to this idea, because I have seen it in a few older Aggro Loam lists. I think thoughts behind this idea were to play 1 - 2 Chains main as a kind of anti Blue Chalice number 5 - 6, to lock them out more easily. And yes the lists played one or two library main with the chains, although it is an anti synergie. So I asked if adding a Chain in Depths is completly nonsense, or worth to give it a try.

[Mr. Safety]

I came to this idea, because I have seen it in a few older Aggro Loam lists. I think thoughts behind this idea were to play 1 - 2 Chains main as a kind of anti Blue Chalice number 5 - 6, to lock them out more easily. And yes the lists played one or two library main with the chains, although it is an anti synergie. So I asked if adding a Chain in Depths is completly nonsense, or worth to give it a try.

Dark Confidant lets you play Chains, because it isn't a draw trigger it's a 'put card into your hand' trigger. Have your cake, eat it too.

[Mr. Safety]

I've been watching DNSolver's streams on this deck. I highly recommend watching these if you're serious about getting proficient with this deck. Excellent material.

[Di]

Steely Resolve I think is unplayable. I haven't seen it in *any* DD lists. I've seen NotW in plenty of lists. The 'gotcha' factor is definitely appealing to me. People can play around Safekeeper, especially given enough time, but playing against 8 discard spells alongside NotW will be challenging.


Just a PSA, I played a single Steely Resolve in my board over a Safekeeper at GP Richmond (and went 11-4 to 48th) and it legit won ~6 games by itself. It’s niche, but unreal in matchups you want it. Not of this World is bad, loses to StP + Snap and it gets blown out by Flusterstorm too. Nearly all matchups you want the protection for deal with Marit Lage from numerous angles, and it’s almost never as easy as beating a single Plow.

Safekeeper is the truth. So is Resolve. So is Rite of Consumption for that matter.

[Mr. Safety]

Can't argue with that, lol. I have rites in the board, I'll look to getting steely resolve and safekeepers.

EDIT: Is Steely Resolve older tech? I hadn't seen it in lists before (and I've been skimming a TON of lists.) Or is this newly discovered tech? I was hoping to nab it for a couple bucks and it turns out it's around a $7 card (still incredibly affordable, I was just surprised.) I'll look to getting the Safekeepers first.

[filln]

EDIT: Is Steely Resolve older tech? I hadn't seen it in lists before (and I've been skimming a TON of lists.) Or is this newly discovered tech? I was hoping to nab it for a couple bucks and it turns out it's around a $7 card (still incredibly affordable, I was just surprised.) I'll look to getting the Safekeepers first.

Steely Resolve had been tested out at least as far back as 2013 and had a minor price hike after the deck featuring it out of the sideboard did some good work on camera a year or two ago.

[Mr. Safety]

Gotcha.

So is Not of this World unplayable? It just seems so good! I have a fairly high saturation of Death and Taxes in my local metagame, at least 4 players consistently. I figured Not of this World could allow for a window to get in against that deck in particular. (To answer the unasked question: yes, I am actively trying to get Dread of Night's for my sideboard.)

EDIT: Here is DNSolver's most recent list (14th on 9/3 online challenge.) He's still fighting the good fight.

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20002&d=329712

Everything makes sense to me except for the Hymns. What matchups are those for? Miracles? Zero Dread of Night as well, which is surprising. Maybe Death and Taxes is played less on MTGO?

[Di]

Not of this World is embarrassing against a deck like Death and Taxes where they have no shortage of answers to Marit Lage and it even isn’t free much of the time due to Thalia, not to mention in your case at least you straight up swap Dark Confidants for them, which are fantastic in any matchup that can easily answer Marit Lage (Side note I ran 3 MD Confidant and they were terrific all weekend). In short, NotW is just flat out bad, or at the very least just inferior to other options.

Steely Resolve isn’t something I expect to catch on in huge numbers not is it good in multiples, but it more than pulls it’s weight against white decks, Lands, and Aggro Loam. For the GP meta, I expected a heavy amount of DnT and boarded heavily accordingly. Dread of Night isn’t needed in a lighter meta, but certainly helps grind well against the deck.

[Mr. Safety]

Not of this World is embarrassing against a deck like Death and Taxes where they have no shortage of answers to Marit Lage and it even isn’t free much of the time due to Thalia, not to mention in your case at least you straight up swap Dark Confidants for them, which are fantastic in any matchup that can easily answer Marit Lage (Side note I ran 3 MD Confidant and they were terrific all weekend). In short, NotW is just flat out bad, or at the very least just inferior to other options.

Steely Resolve isn’t something I expect to catch on in huge numbers not is it good in multiples, but it more than pulls it’s weight against white decks, Lands, and Aggro Loam. For the GP meta, I expected a heavy amount of DnT and boarded heavily accordingly. Dread of Night isn’t needed in a lighter meta, but certainly helps grind well against the deck.

Got it. I'll drop Not of this World altogether. My logic for using it was that with 7-8 discard spells (depending on whether I maindeck Abrupt Decay or not) NotW would give me enough protection to grind through 2 answers. I could have them discard the Swords they have, GQ/Needle the Wasteland/Karakas, and then have an answer in hand after combo-ing so I could get it through. I'm not looking for NotW specifically, but rather just having 3 more protections generally. I didn't think I could afford Safekeeper because I had maindeck Confidants and I couldn't squeeze them in. Are you suggesting just dropping the NotW's and going straight to 3x Safekeeper side?

While I have your attention, how do you feel about DNSolver's sideboarded Hymns? Also, are you saying that Dark Confidant is good against Death and Taxes?

[Di]

Got it. I'll drop Not of this World altogether. My logic for using it was that with 7-8 discard spells (depending on whether I maindeck Abrupt Decay or not) NotW would give me enough protection to grind through 2 answers. I could have them discard the Swords they have, GQ/Needle the Wasteland/Karakas, and then have an answer in hand after combo-ing so I could get it through. I'm not looking for NotW specifically, but rather just having 3 more protections generally. I didn't think I could afford Safekeeper because I had maindeck Confidants and I couldn't squeeze them in. Are you suggesting just dropping the NotW's and going straight to 3x Safekeeper side?

While I have your attention, how do you feel about DNSolver's sideboarded Hymns? Also, are you saying that Dark Confidant is good against Death and Taxes?

Relying on discard is iffy because it’s typically fired in the first couple turns, leaving them to draw into answers by t3-5. At that point your mana is taxed from Thalia/Port, and it’s much harder to both combo and use discard in a single turn sequence. Though that’s mostly g1, I board out most Duress post-board against DnT because there aren’t that many solid targets for them and instead rely on more permanent answers.

Safekeepers should be maindecked, there’s no good reason not to run them since there are very few matchups they are bad.

Sideboard Hymns are fine, they occupy the same slot as Spheres do but are much more flexible to bring in for non-combo, non-Miracles matchups. They’ve been in and out of my board for months, though I ran neither at the GP since I didn’t expect much Storm. And yes I like Dark Confidant against Death and Taxes, especially in conjunction with Dread of Night. Their clock is really slow so your life total isn’t pressured much, and Confidant draws you into Needles and sideboard cards well. It’s also why I maindecked them, to help hedge for grinding matchups like that (but at the cost of some redundancy, cutting the extraneous Maps in their place).

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks, I appreciate the responses. I was on the 'slow' plan right from the beginning with DRS so the turbo plan is new to me, and it's surprising how different the approach can be. What I'm also seeing is that even without DRS this deck had a considerable 'grindy' plan already. I was trying to make deck good at grinding...when it already was good at grinding. I also board out Duress against D&T (glad I got something right, lol) but it also made me want Inquisition of Kozilek because it was better against them. It is clear now that permanent-based forms of protection/interaction are much better in this matchup, and in general.

So you ended up cutting Maps for Confidants?

[DNSolver]

I figured I would pop in and share some thoughts.

1) Hymns in my most recent SB. I wanted a card that hit both Storm and Sneak and Show. These are *not* for fair matchups because we roll all of them except for D+T. Another option to hit Storm and Sneak is Warping Wail, but Hymn is actually easier to cast in this deck.

2) Safekeeper beats Miracles. Steely Resolve is fine vs D+T and Miracles, but it is still vulnerable to some cards that Safekeeper is not. There are definitely tradeoffs. Examples of what I'm talking about: a) Safekeeper gets shut down by Revoker out of D+T, while Steely Resolve can be Flickerwisp'd. b) Miracles is boarding in artifact/enchantment destruction like EE/Disenchant/Council's Judgment. All three hit both effects. Terminus hits Safekeeper as well. However, in general I've found Safekeeper to be excellent against them, as long as you don't attack into a surprise Snapcaster Mage block.

3) Not of This World is good against D+T if you're on a plan of going as fast as possible, rather than trying to grind with Sylvan Library. If you are going to keep in fast mana and try to make Lage on turn2/3, Not of This World isn't bad. My current plan involves removing fast mana vs D+T, so I can't make use of NOTW.

4) Duress is fine on the play vs D+T but can be cut on the draw when they can play Vial already. It's very relevant for taking equipment and Swords so I wouldn't auto-board it out if you are on a grindy plan in the matchup.

5) Please play Sejiri Steppe and Bojuka Bog in your maindeck.

6) I think cutting Safekeepers from the main will really hurt. At worst you can use it to block, at best it wins the game.

7) People can't *play around* Safekeeper if you can resolve it with the help of a discard spell. In my entire time playing the card I have only had one opponent beat it, and that was because I misplayed. D+T opponent Wastelanded me, I just let it go rather than protect my token with the land he targeted. Because of that, opponent used mainphase Flickerwisp to eat another land, Karakas to eat another land, block with Flickerwisp, then Karakas to eat my last land, and finally Path to kill the token. That beat four activations of Safekeeper. Every other time, Safekeeper must be Revoker'd or immediately Terminus'd away. You can't *save up* enough effects to beat it. If Miracles goes for saving up lots of Plows and Snapcasters, they can get wrecked by Surgical Extraction on our side.

[Mr. Safety]

Awesome! Thanks!

[Di]

Thanks, I appreciate the responses. I was on the 'slow' plan right from the beginning with DRS so the turbo plan is new to me, and it's surprising how different the approach can be. What I'm also seeing is that even without DRS this deck had a considerable 'grindy' plan already. I was trying to make deck good at grinding...when it already was good at grinding. I also board out Duress against D&T (glad I got something right, lol) but it also made me want Inquisition of Kozilek because it was better against them. It is clear now that permanent-based forms of protection/interaction are much better in this matchup, and in general.

So you ended up cutting Maps for Confidants?

I’ve considered running a Duress/IoK split, but the fact that IoK doesn’t take Force of Will or Sneak Attack is troublesome. If your meta is more aggro decks though IoK is fine.

As for the deck I ran in Richmond, it was mostly stock outside the Bob swap over the Map/Into the North split many players use.

3 Dark Confidant
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Vampire Hexmage

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Pithing Needle
4 Lotus Petal

4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter

Sideboard:
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rite of Consumption
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Karakas
1 Steely Resolve
2 Dread of Night
2 Bitterblossom
1 Dryad Arbor

The deck ran very well, and for the event (or at least my matchups) the sideboard was incredible. I predicted heavy DnT, UW, Shadow and Grixis which is how I came to this board, while not expecting much Reanimator or Storm hence the shaved Surgicals. I boarded and used everything at least once, but Bitterblossom and Steely Resolve were the most notable high impact cards that outright won games by themselves.

The only card I wanted access to but couldn’t fit was a Maze of Ith, which would’ve won at least two of the matchups I lost if I had access to it. It likely deserves a spot in the 75, just not sure where yet.

[Mr. Safety]

This is the list I've been working on:

4x Vampire Hexmage
3x Dark Confidant

4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Lotus Petal

4x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
4x Crop Rotation
3x Sylvan Scrying
2x Expedition Map
3x Pithing Needle
2x Abrupt Decay

4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian's Stage
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Bayou
2x Swamp
1x Forest
2x Blooming Marsh
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Sejiri Steppe

Sideboard
3x Not of this World
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Sylvan Library
3x Toxic Deluge
1x Karakas
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Rite of Consumption


Obviously the maindeck Decays are there in place of Sylvan Safekeeper, but I can do a straight swap, no problem. The decays go to the sideboard, Not of this World comes out entirely, and I have a slot in the board to mess around with. I could easily rework it for Hymn to Tourach (makes a pretty decent b/g midrange deck with Decay, Hymn, Bobs post board.)

Alternatively I could go uber-all-in and do NotW maindeck over Bobs and add in more tutors for the Decay slots. That would give me 10 protections (TS, Duress, NotW), 8 fast mana, with a goal towards super fast combo potential (like DNSolver mentioned.) I feel like this is likely not as good as making the deck more robust, which means just biting the bullet and getting 2-3x sylvan safekeeper into the 75, dropping Not of this World altogether.

EDIT: the reason I was trying Not of this World was because of the 8x fast mana, which would mean pushing towards a turn 2-3 combo as plan A post-board. Rather than grind out the game, just go balls-to-the-wall. I wanted a t1 discard, turn 2 set up, t3 combo/attack w/NoTW protection while my opponent tried to assemble whatever sideboard cards they might have. In practicality it seems that having a little more patience is more rewarding (that's the impression I'm getting from all of the more experienced turbo pilots.) With 8x fast mana a t1 Dark Confidant g1 also seemed very good in many matchups.

[ComplexPants]

I think DNSolver answered the question about NOTW, but I just wanted to re-emphasize what he said. NoTW isn't bad, but at best it is a single surprise protection from your hand that is easily dealt with with a counter. And at worst it is a dead card in your hand. Safekeeper plays multiple roles of protection and only stiffle can really shut it down. At best, it is just a wall of defense, at worst it is a 1/1 beater. NoTW fell out of favor after Eternal Weekend in 2016. It was about this time that Safekeeper showed up and it has been there for a while.

[DNSolver]

I started playing Safekeeper after the Top ban actually. That was the main catalyst for switching away from NOTW.

[Darkgobs]

I figured I would pop in and share some thoughts.

1) Hymns in my most recent SB. I wanted a card that hit both Storm and Sneak and Show. These are *not* for fair matchups because we roll all of them except for D+T. Another option to hit Storm and Sneak is Warping Wail, but Hymn is actually easier to cast in this deck.

2) Safekeeper beats Miracles. Steely Resolve is fine vs D+T and Miracles, but it is still vulnerable to some cards that Safekeeper is not. There are definitely tradeoffs. Examples of what I'm talking about: a) Safekeeper gets shut down by Revoker out of D+T, while Steely Resolve can be Flickerwisp'd. b) Miracles is boarding in artifact/enchantment destruction like EE/Disenchant/Council's Judgment. All three hit both effects. Terminus hits Safekeeper as well. However, in general I've found Safekeeper to be excellent against them, as long as you don't attack into a surprise Snapcaster Mage block.

3) Not of This World is good against D+T if you're on a plan of going as fast as possible, rather than trying to grind with Sylvan Library. If you are going to keep in fast mana and try to make Lage on turn2/3, Not of This World isn't bad. My current plan involves removing fast mana vs D+T, so I can't make use of NOTW.

4) Duress is fine on the play vs D+T but can be cut on the draw when they can play Vial already. It's very relevant for taking equipment and Swords so I wouldn't auto-board it out if you are on a grindy plan in the matchup.

5) Please play Sejiri Steppe and Bojuka Bog in your maindeck.

6) I think cutting Safekeepers from the main will really hurt. At worst you can use it to block, at best it wins the game.

7) People can't *play around* Safekeeper if you can resolve it with the help of a discard spell. In my entire time playing the card I have only had one opponent beat it, and that was because I misplayed. D+T opponent Wastelanded me, I just let it go rather than protect my token with the land he targeted. Because of that, opponent used mainphase Flickerwisp to eat another land, Karakas to eat another land, block with Flickerwisp, then Karakas to eat my last land, and finally Path to kill the token. That beat four activations of Safekeeper. Every other time, Safekeeper must be Revoker'd or immediately Terminus'd away. You can't *save up* enough effects to beat it. If Miracles goes for saving up lots of Plows and Snapcasters, they can get wrecked by Surgical Extraction on our side.Thanks for sharing.

I'd have some questions though:

1/ Don't you miss Dread of Night against DnT?

2/ Could you please give us your in and out strategies? That would be very interesting!

3/ what about cutting 1 Map for 1 Sylvan Library MD?

[DNSolver]

For Dread of Night, see my post on page 137.

In and out strategies are pretty much covered in my previous posts.

One library could hit the main if you wanted to make room for another sideboard card.

[Mr. Safety]

Is Decay enough against D&T currently? I am planning to have 3 available between the main/sideboard and I am planning to have 2-3x Toxic Deluge. Are the Deluges wasted slots? FYI, I have a unusually high saturation of D&T in my metagame, in some weeklies up to 4 players slinging it. My chances of facing it are above average. I don't think its unbeatable, but I want to be prepared. I don't have Dread of Nights, but I do have Engineered Plague, Pernicious Deed, Golgari Charm, Marsh Casualties, and the aforementioned Toxic Deluge. I just figured Deluge was more powerful overall to deal with Nimble Mongoose etc.

[Mr. Safety]

I am hoping to complete my sets of Depths/Stage tonight, so I might be slinging this at the local. I am also looking to nab 2-3x Safekeeper if the LGS has them, and then I'm good to go. Very excited to see what this deck can do in the current metagame, at least on the local level. I'm still learning play patterns for the deck, but I'm sure I can figure out those with just a ton of practice.

This is my planned list if I can get all the cards together:

4x Vampire Hexmage
3x Dark Confidant
2x Sylvan Safekeeper
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Lotus Petal
4x Crop Rotation
3x Sylvan Scrying
2x Expedition Map
3x Pithing Needle
4x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian's Stage
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Bayou
2x Blooming Marsh
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Bojuka Bog
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Sylvan Library
2x Toxic Deluge
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Karakas
2x Hymn to Tourach
2x Rite of Consumption


If I don't end up with Safekeepers, I'll probably just table the deck until I get them. I don't want to learn how to play a sub-par list and then re-learn how to play the right one.

[apple713]

If I don't end up with Safekeepers, I'll probably just table the deck until I get them. I don't want to learn how to play a sub-par list and then re-learn how to play the right one.

with or without safekeepers is not going to make your list subpar. Their inclusion changes based on the meta. You need to learn to play with and without them...

[ComplexPants]

with or without safekeepers is not going to make your list subpar. Their inclusion changes based on the meta. You need to learn to play with and without them...

Learning how to work the combo and make it come from unfamiliar places is what this deck is very very good at. Safekeepers will make your deck more consistent, but learning how to work around an opposing wasteland or thespian stage is important.

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks all, i got 1 safekeeper and sleeved it. I didn't play this, but i will at the next weekly I can get to. Appreciate the advice on how to pilot/learn the deck.

[Mr. Safety]

What about playing 2x Green Sun's Zenith and 1x Sylvan Safekeeper? It costs more mana (not typically a problem) and it can get Dryad Arbor. Not sure if it's relevant, but it could also get high value sideboard cards (Reclamation Sage, Scavenging Ooze.) Xantid Swarm seems ok, but definitely not as good as Safekeeper. I don't want to go deep here, just have a way to consistently have access to Safekeeper while supporting another angle of the deck (Dryad Arbor to protect against Edict, ramping with Arbor, relevant sideboard cards.) Really it would be for Safekeeper and Dryad Arbor, RecSage out of the board.

Is this too slow?

[PeterSouth]

https://goo.gl/images/ZuMCPD

Holy Hell, this is badass! Using 4 immediately.

[Mr. Safety]

https://goo.gl/images/ZuMCPD

Holy Hell, this is badass! Using 4 immediately.

It's nice that it hits lands (hello Karakas killer) but I don't like that it can be countered. I'm not sure it's a replacement for Decay just yet.

[WorstBandNameEver]

https://goo.gl/images/ZuMCPD

Holy Hell, this is badass! Using 4 immediately.

Excited to see this card for sure. Does it being counterable compared to abrupt decay make it good enough?

Seems like the ability to hits lands might put it over the top.

Will be interested to see how this shakes out.

[Mr. Safety]

Excited to see this card for sure. Does it being counterable compared to abrupt decay make it good enough?

It's less mana efficient than Needle for stopping Wasteland/Karakas and can be countered. The free basic land is negligible, but being able to counter it is pretty rough.

[downtoonelife]

https://goo.gl/images/ZuMCPD

Holy Hell, this is badass! Using 4 immediately.

Where should we put this? Maindeck or Sideboard? I'll wait for everyone's opinion on this new card. I got excited after seeing this not only for my Turbo Depths but for my Modern Jund as well lol

@Mr. Safety - I started playing the deck with 4 Bob and 2 Sylvan Safekeepers with only 4 Petal as an accelerator and made it to the Top 4 with my first tournament with the deck. But after several configuration of the deck, I like the Turbo list more. Against DNT, I never have a problem with them with 3 Sylvan Safekeeper maindeck and 4 Abrupt, 2 Golgari Charm and 2 Rite of Consumption sideboard. I have maindeck Dryad Arbor and Karakas as well. Karakas and Safekeeper help me win versus Lands.

[Mr. Safety]

Where should we put this? Maindeck or Sideboard? I'll wait for everyone's opinion on this new card. I got excited after seeing this not only for my Turbo Depths but for my Modern Jund as well lol

@Mr. Safety - I started playing the deck with 4 Bob and 2 Sylvan Safekeepers with only 4 Petal as an accelerator and made it to the Top 4 with my first tournament with the deck. But after several configuration of the deck, I like the Turbo list more. Against DNT, I never have a problem with them with 3 Sylvan Safekeeper maindeck and 4 Abrupt, 2 Golgari Charm and 2 Rite of Consumption sideboard. I have maindeck Dryad Arbor and Karakas as well. Karakas and Safekeeper help me win versus Lands.

Thanks for the feedback! I was going to keep the 3 Bobs and instead of 2 safekeepers play 1x Safekeeper, 1x Green Sun's Zenith. Maindeck Dryad Arbor gives it another target. I think there is room for playing Dark Confidant, even in the turbo version. If nothing else, against some decks you can just jam a t1 Confidant. If they counter/remove him it should clear the way for other plays.

I end up cutting some number of slow tutors (Expedition Map, Sylvan Scrying) to work it in. So far I'm at 3x Confidant, 3x Sylvan Scrying, 2x Map. That gives me an extra 3 draw spells/threats while still having 9 tutors for Depths/Stage. When the deck goes all-in it helpful to have something that can recuperate and draw into another combo attempt. Sideboarding in some number of Sylvan Library, at least 2, really seems good when grinding out D&T/Miracles.

Do you find Golgari Charm enough against D&T? I was thinking that Toxic Deluge may be a better sweeper, but I'm new to this deck. It's not about card availability, I just need to figure the optimal setup.

[downtoonelife]

Thanks for the feedback! I was going to keep the 3 Bobs and instead of 2 safekeepers play 1x Safekeeper, 1x Green Sun's Zenith. Maindeck Dryad Arbor gives it another target. I think there is room for playing Dark Confidant, even in the turbo version. If nothing else, against some decks you can just jam a t1 Confidant. If they counter/remove him it should clear the way for other plays.

I end up cutting some number of slow tutors (Expedition Map, Sylvan Scrying) to work it in. So far I'm at 3x Confidant, 3x Sylvan Scrying, 2x Map. That gives me an extra 3 draw spells/threats while still having 9 tutors for Depths/Stage. When the deck goes all-in it helpful to have something that can recuperate and draw into another combo attempt. Sideboarding in some number of Sylvan Library, at least 2, really seems good when grinding out D&T/Miracles.

Do you find Golgari Charm enough against D&T? I was thinking that Toxic Deluge may be a better sweeper, but I'm new to this deck. It's not about card availability, I just need to figure the optimal setup.

Maybe it also depends on your local meta. In our meta we have several aggressive decks like Eldrazi, Storm, Belcher, BR Animator and Goblins so it help me fight aggressively as well with the turbo list. You can play patiently as well depending on the match up like against decks with Edict - I wait until I have discard spell or something that can fetch dryad arbor (Verdant / Crop) before making Marit Lage. So with the turbo list your ready to be aggressive or you can opt to play conservatively. Yes for me Golgari Charm is enough since most of their problematic creatures has 1 toughness (Mother, Thalia, Flicker, Revoker). Charm 2nd mode is good as well since it can hit Humility as well (we have this also in our meta).

[ComplexPants]

Ass Trophy is going to warp the format. It is going to force deck to play basics, otherwise this is just too good.

I am pretty sure this is going to be 3-4 in the 75, possibly main. It is such a potent answer for this deck. There are already very few answers that exist against this combo. The hardest to answer are wasteland and karakas, hence 3-4x needles in the main. This card answers both counters to our combo, but shuts down so many other problem cards. Sneak attack, Gurmag Angler, Jace, Eldrazi, Gris, basically all of reanimators creatures, Maze if Ith to name a few. It can also be used in response to a wasteland, to prevent mana screw. That being said, a lot more mana base attacks are going to be coming against us. I see crucible becoming an important card.

[Vervandi]

It can also be used in response to a wasteland, to prevent mana screw.

You can only use it on Opponent's permanents. Card's pretty great though!

[ComplexPants]

You can only use it on Opponent's permanents. Card's pretty great though!

Bah! stupid missed word!

[Sinkhole]

I can`t understand why everybody here is so pleased about trophy! One of the main reasons, what made Turbo Depths so good and better than other 2-Cardcombos was the fact, that it was really hard to attack us. Our only real vulnerability was the token wasteland and karakas, but that were fine to handle with Needle. So many decks will play throphy and now have annother real angle to attack us. Hopefully I am false, but I think Turbo Depths isn`t playable anymore, at least in the Turbo shell. Maybe it`s better to go midrange now, that are the decks for which trophy is made for.

[Jax-]

So many decks will play throphy

What do you mean? Only BGx decks can play this and there are literally four of them around and we don't even know if this card can make them competitive again. This also fight for space vs decay, edict and push.
This acts exactly like Edict in 2x1 us after copying, still requires two untapped lands, can be discarded. They also gives you a free forest to be cropped to get one of your pieces back.
The combination of this + surgicals is pretty brutal, but so is wasteland + surgicals and we are still around.

[Darkgobs]

What do you mean? Only BGx decks can play this and there are literally four of them around and we don't even know if this card can make them competitive again. This also fight for space vs decay, edict and push.
This acts exactly like Edict in 2x1 us after copying, still requires two untapped lands, can be discarded. They also gives you a free forest to be cropped to get one of your pieces back.
The combination of this + surgicals is pretty brutal, but so is wasteland + surgicals and we are still around.

For Turbo / Slow Depths, the print of this card seems like a double-edged sword to me. Let's hope that this will help us more than harm us.

That being said, we have a lots of changes in the meta theses last months. Very nice for legacy!

[Jax-]

For Turbo / Slow Depths, the print of this card seems like a double-edged sword to me. Let's hope that this will help us more than harm us.

That being said, we have a lots of changes in the meta theses last months. Very nice for legacy!

Yes its definetly a double edged sword, but I think that at the end of the day, this card give us a more flexible way to answer problematic permanents that are played in multiples in difficult match ups like DnT and Lands. Its also pretty good in matchups where you needed decay for answer Blood Moon but it was too narrow (aka Show and Tell).

[Mr. Safety]

This card is tempting because it answers a lot of different permanents, but how many to we really need to answer? I mean, we aren't even playing a full 4 maindeck Pithing Needle in most lists, usually 3 with the 4th in the board. I feel like Needle is the natural place to sub this in, because it answers the same problematic permanents (Jace, Karakas, Wasteland.) Those are already answered by a 1 generic mana spell with Needle. It's more efficient, and in regards to what our deck wants to do, functionally the same. We can needle Griselbrand and then steamroll the bitch with Marit Lage. We sideboard in Rite of Consumption against problematic permanents so we can sacrifice the token FTW. We also already have a land-based option that deals with Karakas/Wasteland with Ghost Quarter, one that is conveniently found with 8-12 tutors.

I've gone down the road of trying to play a mid-range depths list, and it was truly (IMHO) only playable because of the power level of Deathrite Shaman. It allowed the same acceleration as Lotus Petal/ESG while still being a threat, sometimes one that could win games. Dark Confidant isn't a threat like DRS was; it's a card draw engine that occasionally attacks for 2, if it lives. I'm convinced we still want to focus on being fast, Confidant just makes the deck slightly more robust by absorbing removal and drawing us cards. As with any card in any combo deck, the card needs to fit a very specific purpose, not a general purpose like Assassin's Trophy.

TL;DR - Is this deck in search of generally powerful cards like Assassin's Tropy? I tend to think 'no.' We are looking for specifically powerful answers to problems the deck faces. Abrupt Decay is a way to deal with permanents that bog us down, like Chalice@1, Blood Moon, Counterbalance, Back to Basics, Ensnaring Bridge, Delvers, Equipment. All of those are dealt with by Decay with the incredible legacy upside of being uncounterable. I think if we wanted a generic answer, we could have been using Beast Within, Maelstrom Pulse, splashing for Vindicate or Oblivion Ring.

[Jax-]

This card is tempting because it answers a lot of different permanents, but how many to we really need to answer? I mean, we aren't even playing a full 4 maindeck Pithing Needle in most lists, usually 3 with the 4th in the board. I feel like Needle is the natural place to sub this in, because it answers the same problematic permanents (Jace, Karakas, Wasteland.) Those are already answered by a 1 generic mana spell with Needle. It's more efficient, and in regards to what our deck wants to do, functionally the same. We can needle Griselbrand and then steamroll the bitch with Marit Lage. We sideboard in Rite of Consumption against problematic permanents so we can sacrifice the token FTW. We also already have a land-based option that deals with Karakas/Wasteland with Ghost Quarter, one that is conveniently found with 8-12 tutors.

I've gone down the road of trying to play a mid-range depths list, and it was truly (IMHO) only playable because of the power level of Deathrite Shaman. It allowed the same acceleration as Lotus Petal/ESG while still being a threat, sometimes one that could win games. Dark Confidant isn't a threat like DRS was; it's a card draw engine that occasionally attacks for 2, if it lives. I'm convinced we still want to focus on being fast, Confidant just makes the deck slightly more robust by absorbing removal and drawing us cards. As with any card in any combo deck, the card needs to fit a very specific purpose, not a general purpose like Assassin's Trophy.

TL;DR - Is this deck in search of generally powerful cards like Assassin's Tropy? I tend to think 'no.' We are looking for specifically powerful answers to problems the deck faces. Abrupt Decay is a way to deal with permanents that bog us down, like Chalice@1, Blood Moon, Counterbalance, Back to Basics, Ensnaring Bridge, Delvers, Equipment. All of those are dealt with by Decay with the incredible legacy upside of being uncounterable. I think if we wanted a generic answer, we could have been using Beast Within, Maelstrom Pulse, splashing for Vindicate or Oblivion Ring.

Biggest difference is that Needle can be destroyed very easily, this is instant speed and if you want to counter it you need to tap in your turn. Its way better than decay vs Lands for example, or vs SnT where Decay can't destroy Omniscience/Sneak/Leyline.
I think that being counterable is not a big deal, most of the decks where you want it don't even play counters, you still want a couple of Decays in your board anyway for things like Miracles. That's not an upgrade, its just another tool that we could play with and a VERY flexible one.

[adrieng]

This card is bad news for us, though it won't see play in aggroish decks such as delver cause it gives a free land. It will see play in bug control/nic fit maybe maverock.
I don't think we want this card, decay is the better card against back to basics counterbalance and delver ; i know it can answers stuff like karakas but we already have lot of answers to it.
Miracle is already a very favorable matchup for my version so we don't need more answers to jtms. Answering the combo in instant speed is bad news but as said this will see play only in control/slow decks
which were good matchups but here they will have new tools to play with that's fair.
I don't think it will be a four off though ; decay is still uncounterable king to answer delvers.

[Mr. Safety]

Does your version play Chalice?

[adrieng]

no chalice but 4 library

guide and petal is not the way to go imho



// 60 Maindeck
// 8 Artifact
4 Expedition Map
4 Pithing Needle

// 4 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage

// 4 Enchantment
4 Sylvan Library

// 4 Instant
4 Crop Rotation

// 26 Land
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
3 Llanowar Wastes
4 Khalni Garden
1 Maze of Ith

// 14 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Duress


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Creature
SB: 3 Sylvan Safekeeper

// 3 Enchantment
SB: 3 Dread of Night

// 6 Instant
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog

// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge

[downtoonelife]

I'd probably make room for 3 Assassin's Trophy and 1 Ramunap Excavator maindeck and keep 3 Abrupt Decay in the sideboard once Assassin's Trophy becomes legal.

[Mr. Safety]

no chalice but 4 library

guide and petal is not the way to go imho



// 60 Maindeck
// 8 Artifact
4 Expedition Map
4 Pithing Needle

// 4 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage

// 4 Enchantment
4 Sylvan Library

// 4 Instant
4 Crop Rotation

// 26 Land
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
3 Llanowar Wastes
4 Khalni Garden
1 Maze of Ith

// 14 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Duress


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Creature
SB: 3 Sylvan Safekeeper

// 3 Enchantment
SB: 3 Dread of Night

// 6 Instant
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog

// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge



The Librarys do indeed give you big game against Miracles. I'm really curious about the Khalni Garden/Cabal Therapy synergy. It seems very cool, honestly. You end up with 10 discard instead of 8 discard + 2 Safekeeper, and the Therapies double up. When the answers are so narrow to the combo Therapy seems pretty good. This really has me intrigued. I was considering moving the Dryad Arbor to the maindeck for GSZ, which opens up Therapy shenanigans while also protecting against Edict effects in the main. I also noticed you are playing zero basics and zero fetches. I know the theory behind that (Submerge mostly). You are already banking on opponents playing Wasteland on Depths/Stage so I can see the extra non-basic lands being no problem (other than against Blood Moon, but you board Decay's against them already and you name it t1 with Therapy if you have time, on the play or on the draw without a t1/Chalice or Moon.)

How often are you chump blocking with plant tokens, or is it just for Therapy? Man, it makes me want to sideboard Natural Order and Progenitus...

[adrieng]

Yeah the khalni garden are mostly for cabal therapy and edict.
It can also help chumpbllocking sometimes creatures ; it is a really good synergy and can give lot of value with therapy.
Cabal therapy is the best discard in my list but it must be played properly what's sometimes not so easy, you often have to wait beofre casting contrary
as others discards, against death and taxes you can wait for them playing stoneforge or recruiter etc... naming the right choice taking bs with others discards. and so on.

Didn't thought of Natural order but for which matchups ? Death and taxes ? Dread of night is just better here.

A single dryad arabor is not enough for therapy you need the 4 garden and not playing acceleration ; cause garden comes tapped.

You really want the flashback option with therapy.

As said before I don't like bojuka bog main, maze is way better.

[Mr. Safety]

Good thoughts, not sure I agree completely on all of them (mostly disagree with no Bog maindeck and fast mana being bad, I think both are fantastic.) However, it's definitely got me thinking. Natural Order would be an altenative combo. They board in hate for Depths, you board in another combo they have to play around. Maybe Progenitus isn't the right card, maybe Worldspine Wurm is the better avenue. It's just an idea anyways, just another cool interaction that is possible, but not necessarily good. If Wurm gets Edicted you just get three 5/5's to smash their face in (not to mention it goes back into your library after edict so you can have another shot if you draw another Natural Order.) People will play around Marit Lage and then lose to Wurm. :cool:

I think there is some opportunity to use 1-2 Cabal Therapy and just have Arbor/1x Khalni Garden in the deck to utilize it. Both do what you want separately without needing to 'combo' together. Against edict decks Garden can be tutored the same as Arbor with Scrying/Map/Rotation. The only downside (in my version) is that Garden can't be tutored with Verdant Catacombs (but that is a minor thing.) I was already playing 2x basic Swamp in my deck, which is not the same as others, which was a concession to splashing in 3 more black cards with Dark Confidant. I could probably cut that 2nd Swamp for Khalni Garden. EDIT: I'm playing Bob's too, so Therapy can use him as fodder as well if I need the discard or if I draw multiples.

I can see very powerful opening plays: t1 Urborg + discard, t2 Garden Therapy twice. In the fast mana versions Lotus Petal can enable t1 Garden + Petal + Therapy twice. These are very powerful interactions that I need to explore further. I know I have at least 1x Khalni Garden in my collection so I can definitely test some interactions out.

Theoretical List:

4x Vampire Hexmage
3x Dark Confidant
3x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
2x Cabal Therapy
4x Crop Rotation
3x Sylvan Scrying
2x Expedition Map
4x Lotus Petal
3x Pithing Needle
1x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Bayou
2x Blooming Marsh
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Khalni Garden
4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian's Stage
3x Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Golgari Charm
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Rite of Consumption
3x Hymn to Tourach
1x karakas
2x Sylvan Library


The sideboarded hymns are harder to cast without 2nd Swamp, and the Charms should probably be Dread of Night because of Dark Confidant.

[Darkgobs]

One thing is sure: all our lists should include some basics now that assassin's trophy exists.

(And for those who are still on the submerge-proof plan... Are you really encountering enough submerges nowadays, so that blooming marsh is worth it? For me, I haven't seen one submerge in my five last "big" paper tournament, and it doesn't look like it's going to change so... )

[Mr. Safety]

One thing is sure: all our lists should include some basics now that assassin's trophy exists.

(And for those who are still on the submerge-proof plan... Are you really encountering enough submerges nowadays, so that blooming marsh is worth it? For me, I haven't seen one submerge in my five last "big" paper tournament, and it doesn't look like it's going to change so... )

My blooming marshes are simply because I only have 1 bayou. My first priority is to finish my set of Force of Will, then I'll get Bayou #2 and #3. It's not because of Submerge, haven't seen that card in a long time. I find the manabase to be rock-solid, even without the other 2 bayous. They are an obvious upgrade, but not necessary 90% of the time.

You make a good point about basic lands, but I'm not sure how many we can actually afford to play. I've had up to 4 before (2 each swamp/forest), but it sacrificed other slots. Where we are only using 4 fetchlands in most cases, 3-4 fetchable lands should be plenty. Assassin's Trophy is an unknown quantity ATM, however, we have tools against it: when a land is targeted, we CropRot it into something else. We don't have a lot of non-land permanents that matter (Pithing Needle, Sylvan Library, Hexmage, maybe Dark Confidant.) Needle is probably the worst hit for us because it protects from other angles. We can work around AssTrophy targeting Hexmage with Crop Rotation, same as with any other removal spell. If AssTrophy becomes very prevalent, we probably adjust to 4x Needle, maybe squeeze in a 3rd basic land. This all assumes we haven't drawn one of our 8 discard spells to get rid of it, too.

Is AssTrophy really that bad for us? Against our deck, it's basically an instant speed Sinkhole that gives us a basic. It's the Ghost Quarter equivalent of Vindicate. Their only real angle of attack with it is to kill lands, and we are uber-equipped at finding lands. We're playing in the range of 8-12 land tutors, additional draw engines (Library, Confidant) and fast mana sources. I'll have to see how it pans out, but overall it doesn't seem unbeatable.

[Darkgobs]

... Assassin's Trophy is an unknown quantity ATM, however, we have tools against it: when a land is targeted, we CropRot it into something else.
[...]
Is AssTrophy really that bad for us? Against our deck, it's basically an instant speed Sinkhole that gives us a basic. It's the Ghost Quarter equivalent of Vindicate. Their only real angle of attack with it is to kill lands, and we are uber-equipped at finding lands.

Don't forget we're playing a combo deck, and we have to kill the opponent before he kills us (pretty obvious, i know^^). If you're mid-combo, and the former thespian's stage now D.Depths without counters get destroyed, IF you still have G open to cast crop rotation, that's something at least indeed, but let's face it:
1) often we are in a race and that 1-2(-3) turns delay we'll get you killed and
2) you are then in a very bad spot, not talking about the fact that you used your crop and cannot use it again to fetch a Sejiri's Steppe to play around blockers, for instance.


About the basics, I play 1 Forest and 1 Swamp, and that went very well for me so far. But we'll see with AT, maybe 3 is needed. I don't have enough space for 4 basics for sure.



Envoyé de mon Blackphone 2 en utilisant Tapatalk

[Mr. Safety]

That's where the fast mana comes into play. In many control/grindy matches we cut fast mana. We may need to keep Lotus Petal/ESG in the deck post-board to speed the deck up. We can cut some fast mana, but not all of it. Remember that they have up to 4 copies of Assassin's Trophy, maybe 5-6 depending on Snapcaster Mage and time allowed to get to 4 mana. We have twelve answers to Assassin's Trophy with Crop Rotation, Duress, and Thoughtseize. I'm not saying it's going to be simple or easy, but the numbers are in our favor. It might become a situation where we board in Surgical Extraction, which is not normally boarded in against decks like BUG Control/Shardless (the deck I'm thinking will most likely use Assassin's Trophy.) BUG Delver doesn't want to feed us lands; they might sideboard a couple copies to deal with Pithing Needle so they can wasteland us, but at that point they are fighting our protection, not our combo. AssTrophy on Needle means AssTrophy isn't killing Stage/Depths.

Again, I want to be clear: I'm not saying it will be simple or easy, but the sky is not falling. This deck still has legs.

EDIT: I played a couple of matches on Magic Workstation with the new GSZ/Therapy/Khalni Garden/maindeck Dryad Arbor setup. It wasn't to test against good pilots, just to get some time working the deck. T1 Duress, t2 Therapy + Verdant > Arbor/recast Therapy was excellent. It bought me so much time, even though I didn't really need it.

[filln]

We have twelve answers to Assassin's Trophy with Crop Rotation, Duress, and Thoughtseize. I'm not saying it's going to be simple or easy, but the numbers are in our favor.

I don't think Crop Rotation will help in most scenarios. Your opponent will likely try to hold Assassin's Trophy until after your Dark Depths has the counters removed (i.e., you've already lost your original Depths or your Vampire Hexmage). In response to the Marit Lage trigger they will attempt to destroy your Depths. You could Rotate the zero counter Depths but you were going to get a basic land from the Trophy anyway. If you happen to have another land to Rotate and another two mana, then sure, you could bring in another Stage and copy the Depths but that's a ton of mana and resources.

EDIT: I guess in the above scenario Trophy essentially a Ghost Quarter that you can't stop with Pithing Needle or force into action with your own Ghost Quarter. You can only force it into action with targeted discard.

[Mr. Safety]

I don't think Crop Rotation will help in most scenarios. Your opponent will likely try to hold Assassin's Trophy until after your Dark Depths has the counters removed (i.e., you've already lost your original Depths or your Vampire Hexmage). In response to the Marit Lage trigger they will attempt to destroy your Depths. You could Rotate the zero counter Depths but you were going to get a basic land from the Trophy anyway. If you happen to have another land to Rotate and another two mana, then sure, you could bring in another Stage and copy the Depths but that's a ton of mana and resources.

EDIT: I guess in the above scenario Trophy essentially a Ghost Quarter that you can't stop with Pithing Needle or force into action with your own Ghost Quarter. You can only force it into action with targeted discard.

It slows us down until we can play around it, yes. Decks that play Assassin's Trophy will also be playing Diabolic Edict (most likely.) It's going to be a slower matchup anyways. We may have to jam a combo to get AssTrophy out of the way, and then rebuild. That's not an unlikely scenario; I've gone into the combo blind sometimes because a) if they don't have the answer, I win and b) I have the means to rebuild the combo in hand. It's like running a threat into a counterspell so you can land another threat. Sometimes you just have to let them win the stack so you can run them out of relevant resources and rely on the redundancy of your deck.

[ComplexPants]

I don't think Crop Rotation will help in most scenarios. Your opponent will likely try to hold Assassin's Trophy until after your Dark Depths has the counters removed (i.e., you've already lost your original Depths or your Vampire Hexmage). In response to the Marit Lage trigger they will attempt to destroy your Depths. You could Rotate the zero counter Depths but you were going to get a basic land from the Trophy anyway. If you happen to have another land to Rotate and another two mana, then sure, you could bring in another Stage and copy the Depths but that's a ton of mana and resources.

EDIT: I guess in the above scenario Trophy essentially a Ghost Quarter that you can't stop with Pithing Needle or force into action with your own Ghost Quarter. You can only force it into action with targeted discard.

For this reason I think crucible is going to be a lot more important out of the board, or even main.

[crowe_1]

Unfortunately Crucible dies to AT as well.

/pessimism.

[Mr. Safety]

Unfortunately Crucible dies to AT as well.

/pessimism.

If they're killing Crucible, they aren't killing Depths. Same as Needle argument; if they have 2, you have to find a way to work around it. If I'm going to play a Crucible/Loam effect out of the board I would probably choose Ramanup Excavator (I have a maindeck GSZ) or even Grim Discovery (which literally gives me back the 2 combo cards of Hexmage/Depths.) Crucible doesn't offer enough; Grim is more mana efficient and objectively more powerful if you only need one Crucible activation. Excavator beats face. I might even consider Eternal Witness first, even though it's more green-intensive. We aren't recurring Wasteland/Factories, and we already have redundancy in our combo, such as Scrying/Map, to get a 2nd shot. I'm skeptical of how good Crucible would be, but I am still fairly new to the deck.

EDIT: Nissa, Vital Force doesn't seem the worst (in fast mana lists) at being an alternative threat, one that might even flush out an AssTrophy so our Depths plan stays intact. Not advocating, just spitballing.

[ComplexPants]

A 5 mana spell better win you the game. She doesn't do that.

[Mr. Safety]

A 5 mana spell better win you the game. She doesn't do that.

On the spot? No. Over a few turns? Yes. She's pure card advantage + threat. Nic fit loves her.

[filln]

On the spot? No. Over a few turns? Yes. She's pure card advantage + threat. Nic fit loves her.

She was played in the Lands sideboard right at the end of the Miracles CounterTop era. Not sure how much I like her here but I would be open to testing out a Liliana, the Last Hope. Helps pick off random small things (Strix, helps in our terrible D&T matchup), can return a Hexmage from the graveyard, and has a game-winning ult.

[adrieng]

Did anyone tested raven's crime
instead of HTT in side for combo matchups ; i think it is better than hymn vs storm and show and tell where we play first targeted discard then finish them with redundant discard avoiding topdecks

[ComplexPants]

On the spot? No. Over a few turns? Yes. She's pure card advantage + threat. Nic fit loves her.

We are not a value deck like Lands or Nic Fit though. This is a fast combo deck aimed at ending games ASAP or when an opponent makes a mistake. The Last hope makes a lot more sense.

[Mr. Safety]

We are not a value deck like Lands or Nic Fit though. This is a fast combo deck aimed at ending games ASAP or when an opponent makes a mistake. The Last hope makes a lot more sense.

Agreed. I was on Lily with slow depths

[Negator77']

Did anyone tested raven's crime
instead of HTT in side for combo matchups ; i think it is better than hymn vs storm and show and tell where we play first targeted discard then finish them with redundant discard avoiding topdecks

Raven's Crime requires a value engine attached before it is good enough imo. BG is often a 23-24 land deck. There is no realistic way to consistently use this more than once and build toward the combo in the first few turns without something like Loam. If you are going down that path, entomb would probably be involved... but one of the best advantages Depths currently has is not needing to use the graveyard.

This isn't a great card vs Storm anyway. ANT players will play out artifact mana, protect game winning spells with b-storm, and eventually kill you with a topdeck if you give them enough time. It's worse than at least 5 discard options we have (Seize, Duress, IOK, Hymn, Therapy) and probably worse than the narrow ones like Encroach too.

[adrieng]

yeah you are right I just tested raven's crime it was underwhelming.

[jolssoni]

I think I'll try swapping 4 Duress to 4 Trophy main next month, gives you more game vs DNT/Lands and the like g1 and should also work better vs Miracles g1 since you don't have to scoop to a Jace/Mentor if you can't go off. Sinkhole'ing Delver isn't too bad either. 4 sb slots that used to be Decay can probably be replaced with more discard or some funky 1-ofs like Loam?

[Mr. Safety]

I think I'll try swapping 4 Duress to 4 Trophy main next month, gives you more game vs DNT/Lands and the like g1 and should also work better vs Miracles g1 since you don't have to scoop to a Jace/Mentor if you can't go off. Sinkhole'ing Delver isn't too bad either. 4 sb slots that used to be Decay can probably be replaced with more discard or some funky 1-ofs like Loam?

I don't think you want less than 6 maindeck targeted discard. I've played up to 3 decay in the main, 2 was decent, but I really like the more efficient discard to combo fast. I really don't think ass trophy adds that much to this deck. I am happy to be proven wrong.

[jolssoni]

I don't think you want less than 6 maindeck targeted discard. I've played up to 3 decay in the main, 2 was decent, but I really like the more efficient discard to combo fast.

Yeah actually after thinking about it I think it's finally time for Lotus Petal to go for something like 7 discard+3-4 trophy main. I never liked the card and going off turn 2 is possible even without a single piece of fast mana.

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah actually after thinking about it I think it's finally time for Lotus Petal to go for something like 7 discard+3-4 trophy main. I never liked the card and going off turn 2 is possible even without a single piece of fast mana.

Fast mana lets you play around daze and enables the slow tutors (scrying/map) without slowing you dpwn. It also let's you play discard and combo the same turn. I'm sold on 7 fast mana (4 petal 3 esg.)

[jolssoni]

Fast mana lets you play around daze and enables the slow tutors (scrying/map) without slowing you dpwn. It also let's you play discard and combo the same turn. I'm sold on 7 fast mana (4 petal 3 esg.)

I haven't really cared about Daze personally since the DRS ban. I get the upsides but I think Trophy just gives you unreal percentages where none existed before and I don't like the idea of cutting anything else.
For reference

4 Assassin's Trophy
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Crop Rotation
4 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Duress
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Expedition Map
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
4 Pithing Needle
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Swamp
3 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Thoughtseize
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Verdant Catacombs

1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
3 Sphere variants and/or Mindbreak Trap
3 Dread of Night (This might be overkill with 4 Trophy, taking suggestions)
1 Life from the Loam
2 Rite of Consumption
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Sylvan Library

[ComplexPants]

I wouldn't overlook abrupt in the board. Being uncounterable is worth something against Grixis control, Shadow and Delver decks. I also think 4x Ass Trophies might be too much. I might consider 2-3. We are not looking to answer things game 1, we are trying to do our game plan of making Merit ASAP.

Also, loam is a bad card in this deck. If you want a recurrence engine go with Crucible or Ramunap excavator.

[jolssoni]

Also, loam is a bad card in this deck.

Yeah you might be right, the original idea was a way to "try again" against the other Loam decks after the game drags on if you can't find a Rite of Consumption. Might try out Choke at weeklies.

[Mr. Safety]

I agree with ComplexPants; we aren't trying to play fair and trade resources until we can win the game, we're trying to get them dead ASAP. When we sideboard in Abrupt Decay or other removal, we aren't trying to play fair. We're trying to answer our opponent's sideboard plan. I also agree that Crucible/Ramanup Excavator are both superior to Loam. We aren't recurring Wastelands, tutoring with gamble, or cycling lands into a draw engine. I got DNSolver's take on Loam in one of his streams: if you want to utilize Loam it's a different approach and RG lands is a much better loam deck.

Choke on the other hand seems decent. I keep trying to cram 2-3 copies into my sideboard as well. The fair blue matchups can be deceptively complex, but Choke takes away that factor and makes it a fairly simple (if not easy) game. Again, fast mana shines here because you can deploy it before t3 or deploy it with less than 3 lands on the battlefield, possibly catching a Miracles player tapped out to play cantrips.

I still haven't answered these questions for myself:

1) What does Assassin's Trophy do for this deck that I didn't already have access to?
2) What matchups does it improve?
3) Is it powerful enough to concede the possibility of it being countered?

[ComplexPants]

https://cdn1.mtggoldfish.com/images/gf/Unmoored%2BEgo%2B%255BGRN%255D.jpg

This card is not good for us or basically all of combo in legacy. In Shadow, Grixis control, or delver it seems like bad news unless we can combo asap.

[Hopo]

1) What does Assassin's Trophy do for this deck that I didn't already have access to?
2) What matchups does it improve?
3) Is it powerful enough to concede the possibility of it being countered?

You get maindeckable removal and protection in one card. It's never been this economical before and will save your precious sideboard slots. For example you can switch trophies for needles and still fight Wasteland pretty much as well as before. This time you also have actual removal.

My favorite thing is that now you have maindeck outs to Blood Moon and Ensnaring Bridge.

[Athlete]

https://cdn1.mtggoldfish.com/images/gf/Unmoored%2BEgo%2B%255BGRN%255D.jpg

This card is not good for us or basically all of combo in legacy. In Shadow, Grixis control, or delver it seems like bad news unless we can combo asap.

Fortunately though, I don't think people will use it much. Look at Lost Legacy - in theory would be great against combo, like ANT, but in practice its too slow. I believe the same applies here - if your opp plays this card turn 3 its already too late in most cases.

[Mr. Safety]

Fortunately though, I don't think people will use it much. Look at Lost Legacy - in theory would be great against combo, like ANT, but in practice its too slow. I believe the same applies here - if your opp plays this card turn 3 its already too late in most cases.

This card just confirms further that playing a slower version of this deck is not optimal. Don't give them time to cast cards like this; make sure you are loaded up with early, cheap disruption and ways to combo fast.

I understand the arguments for Assassin's Trophy, I'm just not sure the overall impact. Time will tell how prevalent the card will be and how damaging it will be. Another consideration is whether AssTrophy will subdue some of our bad matchups, like D&T or Miracles. If it does then it's kind of a neutral change to the metagame we care about. The real problem is whether D&T/Miracles stay DTB along with BGx midrange decks with AssTrophy.

I don't get the argument for maindeck removal; we could play Abrupt Decay and have maindeck answers to Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, along with Delver and Baleful Strix. So with AssTrophy we can now have removal for...threats we normally ignore? Jace comes to mind, but in Jace matchups we typically don't have to worry about Wasteland, so Needle is live. We have Rite out of the board to play around Jace's sorcery-speed bounce.

I'm really scratching my head here. I'm not trying to be abrasive, I just don't think I'm in the market for AssTrophy in Turbo Depths.

[ComplexPants]

Fortunately though, I don't think people will use it much. Look at Lost Legacy - in theory would be great against combo, like ANT, but in practice its too slow. I believe the same applies here - if your opp plays this card turn 3 its already too late in most cases.

3 mana is a bit much, but 1UB is much better than 1BB. Also it can name any card which makes much more versatile. I don't think this will be a 4x in side board, but this card basically is an auto win against us, unless we can land DD early, but then we are exposed to wasteland. I don't know how it will shake out, but it certainly has caught my attention.

[Sinkhole]

First Thropy and now that Ego crap! Throphy will hurt the deck more than it can takes advantage out of it. I agree with Mr. Safety, that Throphy doesn`t do anything for the deck that Needle wasn`t able before to do so. Yes Throphy main answers now Bridge, but how many decks play Bridge main and BG is often times hard to support. There`s a reason why the slow Expediton maps are played. Yes Needle is a permanent and could be destroyed, but again not many decks have main deck answers for artifacts. Oh wait, Trophy will do the job in the future. Yes a 3 free mana spell is really slow against combo, fast combo. I always felt that Turbo Dephts isn`t a really fast combo deck, yes it could go off on turn 2 - 3, but I won most of my matches by playing grindy. If Unmoored Ego will see much play, I think we should include an alternative win condition in the sideboard. Maybe goyf or tracker, to switch in a Gb Rock mode, or maybe Natural order. Hopefully I am wrong, but I think this deck is over the hill.

[Hopo]

.

I don't get the argument for maindeck removal; we could play Abrupt Decay and have maindeck answers to Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, along with Delver and Baleful Strix.

Listing targets is imho useless because it hits _everything_. Even Wasteland and Ghost Quarter. That's my reason to play it. I never played Decay in main deck before because it basically ate slots from Needle making your Wasteland match-up worse.

[Mr. Safety]

First Thropy and now that Ego crap! Throphy will hurt the deck more than it can takes advantage out of it. I agree with Mr. Safety, that Throphy doesn`t do anything for the deck that Needle wasn`t able before to do so. Yes Throphy main answers now Bridge, but how many decks play Bridge main and BG is often times hard to support. There`s a reason why the slow Expediton maps are played. Yes Needle is a permanent and could be destroyed, but again not many decks have main deck answers for artifacts. Oh wait, Trophy will do the job in the future. Yes a 3 free mana spell is really slow against combo, fast combo. I always felt that Turbo Dephts isn`t a really fast combo deck, yes it could go off on turn 2 - 3, but I won most of my matches by playing grindy. If Unmoored Ego will see much play, I think we should include an alternative win condition in the sideboard. Maybe goyf or tracker, to switch in a Gb Rock mode, or maybe Natural order. Hopefully I am wrong, but I think this deck is over the hill.

I like the idea of an alternative combo, as long as it's compact. A few posts back we talked about the 4x Khalni Garden list and the potential for Natural Order into Worldspine Wurm or Progenitus. I like that plan out of the sideboard, but only if we really see an uptick of these new hate cards. I've done Tarmogoyf out of the sideboard before and it's decent, for sure.

[Mr. Safety]

Listing targets is imho useless because it hits _everything_. Even Wasteland and Ghost Quarter. That's my reason to play it. I never played Decay in main deck before because it basically ate slots from Needle making your Wasteland match-up worse.

But we don't care about _everything_. We care about: Wasteland, Karakas, Terminus, Diabolic Edict, flying blockers.

What will you cut for AssTrophy maindeck? If you cut the fast mana (Petal/ESG) you reduce your ability to play it through wasteland. If you cut Needles, you reduce your ability to fight Karakas/Wasteland (Needle cutting them off is better than just destroying it once.) So again, not trying to be abrasive, but what are you cutting for AssTrophy? Would it be the slow tutors like I did or the fast mana? Both have their appeal, and both have their drawbacks.

I ended up cutting the slower tutors for Dark Confidant x3 in the maindeck (2x Map and 1x Sylvan Scrying), but that was mostly so I could see my sideboard cards more often and also to provide interference for removal. Drawing extra cards is always nice, and an additional body to absorb Edict effects is great. I can easily sideboard into a 'fair' grindy/midrange plan with Hymns, Libraries, and Decays because I already have 4x maindeck Confidants to play the value game.

[Hopo]

But we don't care about _everything_. We care about: Wasteland, Karakas, Terminus, Diabolic Edict, flying blockers.


I have to also care about Blood Moon, Bridge and to lesser degree Back to Basics etc.

It's not that I don't understand the difference between needle and trophy.

[Mr. Safety]

I have to also care about Blood Moon, Bridge and to lesser degree Back to Basics etc.

It's not that I don't understand the difference between needle and trophy.

I wasn't trying to imply that you didn't; sorry if I was coming across as a jerk. All I mean to say is that we already had answers for the problems that faced the deck with Needle and Decay, Trophy doesn't do anything new. If Trophy somehow answered Terminus I would be onboard in a second, but that's still a card that we have a hard time dealing with.

I've debated splashing Blood Moon into this deck, honestly. The interaction of fetching basic lands and playing a Blood Moon off a Lotus Petal (or another mana fixing source like a Badlands or Taiga) and then playing out Dark Depths. It would enter without counters and I just have to pick my moment to kill the Blood Moon with Decay and I have a 20/20.

[Sinkhole]

I wasn't trying to imply that you didn't; sorry if I was coming across as a jerk. All I mean to say is that we already had answers for the problems that faced the deck with Needle and Decay, Trophy doesn't do anything new. If Trophy somehow answered Terminus I would be onboard in a second, but that's still a card that we have a hard time dealing with.

I've debated splashing Blood Moon into this deck, honestly. The interaction of fetching basic lands and playing a Blood Moon off a Lotus Petal (or another mana fixing source like a Badlands or Taiga) and then playing out Dark Depths. It would enter without counters and I just have to pick my moment to kill the Blood Moon with Decay and I have a 20/20.

Hmm interesting idea, I thoughted of something similar longer time ago, but is a 3 Color manabase really affordable with blood moon? And Hexmage I think wouldn`t be playable with BB anymore. Like I said something similar came to my mind before, but instead of 3 Color I thoughted of straight RG. I don`t have a deck list but I might think about including P. Fire - Grove Engine for killing Magus, 4 Blood Moon and 4 Magus, maybe Chalice for fighting Delver and other Combo, but than we have to cut Needle, maybe playing a Set of our own Wastelands and I see we need a good versataile Removel for our Blood Moons, not sure what it could be.

Not sure if that works out and would be better than classic GB. Maybe there are some good suggestions for you, that you want to test out :smile:

[Mr. Safety]

Hmm interesting idea, I thoughted of something similar longer time ago, but is a 3 Color manabase really affordable with blood moon? And Hexmage I think wouldn`t be playable with BB anymore. Like I said something similar came to my mind before, but instead of 3 Color I thoughted of straight RG. I don`t have a deck list but I might think about including P. Fire - Grove Engine for killing Magus, 4 Blood Moon and 4 Magus, maybe Chalice for fighting Delver and other Combo, but than we have to cut Needle, maybe playing a Set of our own Wastelands and I see we need a good versataile Removel for our Blood Moons, not sure what it could be.

Not sure if that works out and would be better than classic GB. Maybe there are some good suggestions for you, that you want to test out :smile:

At that point it's a worse RG Lands deck, I think. Blood Moon can combo with Dark Depths, but it would have to be at the expense of Hexmage. It could be a sideboard plan, splashing (1) red dual to accommodate it and prioritizing fetching Forest/Swamp (so you can Decay it after Moon has done it's job.) Overall, the instability and risk aren't worth it for Blood Moon. However, I think Turbo Depths does a decent (if not perfect) job of playing around Blood Moon already. Yes we lose to a t1 blood moon in most cases, but with ESG/Lotus Petal and even one turn to dig out a basic Forest or Swamp and we can try and draw into our Decays. Sylvan Library and Dark Confidant go a long way towards making this approach feasible.

EDIT: There was a deck called 'Marit-ocracy' going around for a little while that played 4x Simian Spirit Guide, 4x Elvish Spirit Guide, and 4x Lotus Petal and relied solely on land tutors and Stage/Depths to combo. It was faster at making a 20/20 but less versatile with a lack of discard or Hexmage as a utility creature. That approach might be able to use Blood Moon, and something like Nature's Claim or Natural State. Even Beast Within could be decent, as it hits any permanent, the 3/3 can be ignored, and if we are destroying our own Moon it gives us a 3/3 as well.

[Sinkhole]

I agree with you that we might be a worse version of lands, that`s the reason I never really tried a RG version of the deck. Chalice with Crop, Safekeeper and Needle is anti synergetic. Also I don`t like to loose the discard spells, I even considered going up to 10 Spells. Would like to play 2 Hymns, but I don`t find the space for it. Tireless Tracker and Executor or Crucible could be annother good sideboard options, if we want to morph in a different deck to doge opponent`s boarded hate.

[Mr. Safety]

I agree with you that we might be a worse version of lands, that`s the reason I never really tried a RG version of the deck. Chalice with Crop, Safekeeper and Needle is anti synergetic. Also I don`t like to loose the discard spells, I even considered going up to 10 Spells. Would like to play 2 Hymns, but I don`t find the space for it. Tireless Tracker and Executor or Crucible could be annother good sideboard options, if we want to morph in a different deck to doge opponent`s boarded hate.

My current sideboard:

3x Abrupt Decay
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Rite of Consumption
2x Sylvan Library
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Golgari Charm
1x Marsh Casualties
1x Karakas


Hymns go in the Sphere of Resistance slots, which are good against both Storm and Miracles. Sphere was really only for Storm and other fast combo. I could see going down to 2 Hymns an putting in a Ramunap Excavator, but I would essentially have 2 copies because I maindeck Green Sun's Zenith (to get Arbor and Safekeeper.) I already squeezed in 3x Dark Confidant maindeck, so boarding in Library, Decay, and Hymn is plenty to morph it into a mid-range grindy deck that can also combo. Fast mana, Pithing Needles, Dryad Arbor, and Khalni Garden are all flex slots to play around with depending on matchup.

[Hopo]

I feel that the Blood Moon trick works better the other way around: by adding Depths to a Blood Moon deck. What you are trying to accomplish is not what we would call Turbo Depths and discuss in this thread.
If you anyway want to explore this synergy, I'd guess it's better to start with 4 x Magus since it's so much easier to kill then Blood Moon.

[Mr. Safety]

I don't think Turbo Depths is a bad version of Lands; it's just different. If you want RG and Punishing Fire then Lands is the deck to play. If you want discard and an all-in plan go with Turbo. Just different approaches, each with their strengths and weaknesses.

There is little that hasn't been attempted at this point so it becomes a matter of meta-gaming your list to beat what's there. The raw power of this deck means I don't think it will ever by truly dead, or even a terrible choice. Experienced pilots should still be able to grind through effectively in a tournament. I liken it to ANT/TES, decks that take time to learn and optimize. They may not be the best choice in the meta-game at large but experienced pilots are still doing well with it. David Long just took 2nd place at Mox Ruby: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20098&f=LE and Daniel Britain got top 8 in a 1k: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20048&d=330127&f=LE. Both events had 50+ players and top tier decks to fight against.

Commitment is what we need! Commitment to Marit Lage!

[hovercraft]

Which decks does David Long side in the GSZ package against? Control decks with answers to ML I guess? Miracles/DnT/Grixis?

[Mr. Safety]

Which decks does David Long side in the GSZ package against? Control decks with answers to ML I guess? Miracles/DnT/Grixis?

That's my guess. Gaddock Teeg prevents Terminus, which is very difficult to work around unless you catch them with it in hand (rare) so you can have them discard it. T2 Hymn can deal with it occasionally, but you still have to fight through Council's Judgment and Unexpectedly Absent (Teeg stops this too.) Those are easier to discard but they naturally put Terminus back on top of their library anyways, which is impossible to interact with (unless you Ghost Quarter their only white source and they have to shuffle and grab the basic land, pretty unlikely.) Teeg also stops Jace from landing, one of the best cards against Depths. Teeg also, in narrow spots, helps against TES/ANT by stopping their win conditions and engine cards. They tend to be faster than Depths so it's probably better to use fast mana to GSZ into Teeg and then combo a turn or 2 later.

GSZ into Tireless Tracker is a way to grind, similar to RG Lands boarding Trackers. GSZ into Dryad Arbor ramps + give Edict protection. I was sideboarding Tarmogoyfs for a little while, which can be great but it takes up a ton of space in the board.

Overall, I think the presence of Dark Confidant and Mox Diamond are ways to have a grindier deck that is slightly slower. He's playing Wasteland and no Needles maindeck, so he's definitely trying to play around Wasteland by waste/GQ-ing their wastelands.

I think it's going a little too deep myself with Diamond, it's too close to Lands without Loam. Without Loam, Crucible, or Ramanup Excavator Diamond is just a Chrome Mox that happens to use lands instead of spells. Not a fan, overall, because the other fast mana options still allow for explosive starts but aren't susceptible to countermagic, Abrupt Decay, or KCommand. They only get used once, but it's usually to play something very relevant (tutor, Bob, Library) or combo immediately.

I like GSZ a ton, it allows for silver bullets like Dryad Arbor, Safekeeper, and potentially Excavator, Reclamation Sage, and Teeg out of the board. I wouldn't want to waste sideboard slots on GSZ though; find a way to squeeze it in main or leave it out entirely.

[hovercraft]

I think Mox Diamond makes a lot of sense with a high land count, but I agree that I don't see why you wouldn't squeak in 1-2x Loam in somewhere. He's clearly having some success playing for the slightly longer gameplan or at least the ability to pivot.

[Mr. Safety]

I think Mox Diamond makes a lot of sense with a high land count, but I agree that I don't see why you wouldn't squeak in 1-2x Loam in somewhere. He's clearly having some success playing for the slightly longer gameplan or at least the ability to pivot.

I think Dark Confidant, and sideboarded Libraries, already do that job just fine. I can see the usefulness of Mox Diamond as a reusable mana source, but I would be petrified to register a list without maindeck Needles. They do so much against the format at-large that I can't see a reason to drop them for Wastelands.

Honestly, if I were to play my own Wastelands then a blue splash would be ideal. Diamond gives you blue, along with some blue duals/fetches, so you can play Brainstorm and Stifle. Stifle lets you play around Wasteland while letting you use it yourself. Brainstorm is brainstorm, busted AF. It's a different deck, but BUG Depths is the real deal as well. I think Negator on here was using BUG Depths to some decent success.

[Jorge Le Douche]

I think Mox Diamond makes a lot of sense with a high land count, but I agree that I don't see why you wouldn't squeak in 1-2x Loam in somewhere. He's clearly having some success playing for the slightly longer gameplan or at least the ability to pivot.

1x Life from the Loam seems like it would be promising, but it would only be good in game 1. In games 2+3, your opponent will have Surgical Extraction. And you can't risk accidentally dredging a Dark Depths and having it surgicaled prematurely.



Which decks does David Long side in the GSZ package against? Control decks with answers to ML I guess? Miracles/DnT/Grixis?


The GSZ package is also effectively extra copies of Sylvan Safekeeper, as well as a way to snag the Dryad Arbor in a pinch. And don't forget that Safekeeper + Gaddock Teeg is game over against ANT Storm, and will buy significant time and merit a Burning Wish from TES.

Green Sun's Zenith plus tireless tracker and gaddock teeg is good against Miracles. Against Grixis I'm not quite so sure. Theoretically, Tireless Tracker seems good for grinding. But Grixis is already a great matchup, and diluting with a "go long" package against a deck made to go long might be exactly the wrong strategy.

I would not bring in Gaddock Teeg against D+T. Maybe GSZ for more copies of Safekeeper, which is a crucial card in the matchup. Maybe Tireless Tracker but I don't know if you will have space. You have 3x Dread of Night and 1x Pithing Needle (Karakas, Vial, Port, equipment, Mother of Runes if necessary), which are definitely coming in. You only have so many slots to add extra Green Sun's Zenith shenanigans.

And you can always trim a Sylvan Safekeeper when you add a Green Sun's Zenith, without really "going down" on the number of Sylvan Safekeepers in your 60.

[Mr. Safety]

And you can always trim a Sylvan Safekeeper when you add a Green Sun's Zenith, without really "going down" on the number of Sylvan Safekeepers in your 60.

Just want to highlight this, as this is what I'm doing. Maindeck 1x Gsz, 1x Sylvan Safekeeper. Some lists have 3 functional copies of Safekeeper, which is fine, but so far I like having an extra way to get Arbor (t1 with GSZ) to ramp or protect against Edicts. I also like that it can feed Cabal Therapy with Arbor without wasting a real mana source (Verdant Catacombs) to do it. I am really thinking about a Ramanup Excavator and Reclamation Sage in the sideboard for grindy matchups. If I end up doing that, instead of 2x Safekeeper and 1x GSZ maindeck it will become 2x Gsz, 1x Safekeeper maindeck.

[Jorge Le Douche]

I would be petrified to register a list without maindeck Needles. They do so much against the format at-large that I can't see a reason to drop them for Wastelands.

I was worried about the lack of Needle too, but after playing the deck I think Wasteland has a lot of advantages. Pithing Needle is much narrower than Wasteland. In my opinion, Wasteland does MORE "against the format at-large" than Pithing Needle. When your opponent has multiple Wastelands, Needle is better than Wasteland. If your opponent has a very specific permanent in play (Sneak Attack, Jace, Vial), Needle is better. Otherwise Wasteland is better. And that is most of the time. Wasteland is just a very good magic card. Against the decks without Wastelands (specifically combo decks), the Wasteland can be valuable, even game-winning, disruption, in situations where Pithing Needle would do stone nothing.

And you can get random Wasteland wins, of course. But... don't be too aggressive. Wasteland takes the Pithing Needle slot and has a specific goal: stop Wasteland, Karakas, Maze of Ith, etc. You can't be blasting away your Wastelands on your opponents first land drop, only to have them drop a Wasteland a turn later that stops your combo cold.

[Mr. Safety]

I was worried about the lack of Needle too, but after playing the deck I think Wasteland has a lot of advantages. Pithing Needle is much narrower than Wasteland. In my opinion, Wasteland does MORE "against the format at-large" than Pithing Needle. When your opponent has multiple Wastelands, Needle is better than Wasteland. If your opponent has a very specific permanent in play (Sneak Attack, Jace, Vial), Needle is better. Otherwise Wasteland is better. And that is most of the time. Wasteland is just a very good magic card. Against the decks without Wastelands (specifically combo decks), the Wasteland can be valuable, even game-winning, disruption, in situations where Pithing Needle would do stone nothing.

And you can get random Wasteland wins, of course. But... don't be too aggressive. Wasteland takes the Pithing Needle slot and has a specific goal: stop Wasteland, Karakas, Maze of Ith, etc. You can't be blasting away your Wastelands on your opponents first land drop, only to have them drop a Wasteland a turn later that stops your combo cold.

What about an extra Ghost Quarter in the sideboard? I think when Needle is bad, other cards come in that are good (Decay, Library, Hymn, etc.) I could definitely see a 2nd Ghost Quarter in the sideboard, especially with Ramanup Excavator. Have your cake, eat it too.

[Mr. Safety]

David Long took 3-4th at SCG Baltimore with the same Mox Diamond list:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=20159&d=331263&f=LE

It's definitely a cool deck, with a lands-like ability to grind longer games (and 4x Confidant for extra draw power.) Without having Mox Diamonds I can't play the list, but I think he's correct in playing a grindy maindeck. I have really liked what Confidant does for the maindeck and I'm getting a bit sour on ESG and Expedition Map. In many games I play map and then it just sits there while I utilize my mana elsewhere. I'll probably get the 4th Scrying in there. ESG providing only green mana is an issue, petal is far and away superior at smoothing out mana while still ramping fast. T1 GSZ into Arbor ramps me as well.

Here's my current list:

4x Hexmage
3x Confidant
3x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
1x Dryad Arbor

4x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
2x Cabal Therapy
4x Crop Rotation
3x Sylvan Scrying
2x Expedition Map
3x Pithing Needle
1x GSZ
4x Lotus Petal

4x Depths
4x Stage
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Bayou
1x Forest
1x Swamp
3x Urborg
2x Blooming Marsh
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Khalni Garden
1x Bojuka Bog

Sideboard
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Rite of Consumption
2x Sylvan Library
1x Karakas
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Golgari Charm

Maindeck I'm thinking:

-1 Expedition Map
-1 Elvish Spirit Guide
-1 Khalni Garden
+1 Green Sun's Zenith
+2 Sylvan Library

Sideboard I'm thinking:
-2 Sylvan Library
+1 Ramanup Excavator
+1 Gaddock Teeg

That should be pretty decent. I don't have the Mox Diamonds, but I don't like cutting too many tutors either. I would never go below 8 tutors, and I'm at the bare minimum there ATM (4 Crop/3 Scrying/1 Map.) I don't think the draw/filter options (Confidant, Library) can completely replace the tutors; on the contrary, they help you dig into them more consistently while also helping to dig into protection or combo pieces.

I've done a bunch of test games, and I have to say that Therapy/Dryad Arbor/GSZ is definitely my style. They're doing exactly what I want them to do, and it's good stuff.

[downtoonelife]

ESG providing only green mana is an issue

Just to give a helpful info/tip about ESG vs Lotus Petal. Probably everyone knows this already, but I just realized this when I fought a match against Eldrazi. My opponent had a turn 1 and turn 2 Thorn of Amethyst on our 3rd game him playing first. I won with thespian stage, dark depths and 2 ESG. Petal wouldn't be able to help me win fast on that situation. ESG also help me win against a Lands deck with a Root Maze sb.

Turbo, Midrange or Slow Depths I guess really depends on someone's preference. I'm playing Turbo for now. Not sure though what will happen once Assassin's Trophy becomes legal.

[Mr. Safety]

Just to give a helpful info/tip about ESG vs Lotus Petal. Probably everyone knows this already, but I just realized this when I fought a match against Eldrazi. My opponent had a turn 1 and turn 2 Thorn of Amethyst on our 3rd game him playing first. I won with thespian stage, dark depths and 2 ESG. Petal wouldn't be able to help me win fast on that situation. ESG also help me win against a Lands deck with a Root Maze sb.

Turbo, Midrange or Slow Depths I guess really depends on someone's preference. I'm playing Turbo for now. Not sure though what will happen once Assassin's Trophy becomes legal.

Great insight, thanks. It helps play around Thalia quite a bit better as well. Once I start going down the path of adding value elements, something has to give. It seems like the turbo versions typically sideboard out fast mana for the value elements, so it makes sense if I want to make a more grindy deck in the main then fast mana is the place to cut. It doesn't feel good to go down to 2 ESG, but as I said, I'm not willing to cut the disruption (discard, GSZ/Safekeepr, needles) or go below 8 tutors. It's really the only place to cut, other than Confidants.

[ComplexPants]

ESG is hidden mana. Hidden mana makes people do miscalculations, like fire off dazes at bad times, or forget that you can make Merit a turn or two early. She is also a beater in a pinch. Honestly, that card has won more games than petal. Also, note that you can't counter ESG's mana ability.

[jolssoni]

ESG is hidden mana. Hidden mana makes people do miscalculations, like fire off dazes at bad times, or forget that you can make Merit a turn or two early. She is also a beater in a pinch. Honestly, that card has won more games than petal. Also, note that you can't counter ESG's mana ability.

This. They also get better in multiples since it's unlikely to draw more than one in a relatively short game without card selection so it's rational for your opponent to not play around extras.

[Mr. Safety]

Just so I understand this correctly: If I only have 7 slots open for fast mana, I should prioritize ESG over Lotus Petal? Or are people just saying don't underestimate the value of ESG?

[Darkgobs]

David Long took 3-4th at SCG Baltimore with the same Mox Diamond list:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=20159&d=331263&f=LE



There is a lot of things to say about David Long's list.

1) it's a more grindy version indeed, with 4 Dark confident + 1 Sylvan MD, 4 Abrupt Decay MD and 4 Mox Diamond as accelerant.
2) he plays 29 lands, including 1 Maze of Ith and 3 Wasteland.
3) 0 Needle (1 in sideboard)
4) to make space, he cutted 3 discard spells, going down to 5. As for the tutor, only 4 Crop + 2 Sylvan Scrying remain.
5) 1 Gaddock Teeg in the 15, to cast with 2 GSZ and the Mox Diamond.
6) Grindy list, but still 3 Sylvan Safekeeper in the maindeck (this card is true mvp!).

I will test this, I am very curious to see how the 3 wastelands will play instead of the 3 Needles.

Now, question to the plenum: how would you guys side with Long's list against Miracle? Especially, what would you board out?

[filln]

5) 1 Gaddock Teeg in the 15, to cast with 2 GSZ and the Mox Diamond.

Also with Sejiri Steppe and Karakas to generate white mana.

[ComplexPants]

Just so I understand this correctly: If I only have 7 slots open for fast mana, I should prioritize ESG over Lotus Petal? Or are people just saying don't underestimate the value of ESG?

More don't underestimate the value. Double black is important for Hexmage, which is where petal is better. But when cutting fast mana for sideboarding, I take petal first generally.

[Mr. Safety]

More don't underestimate the value. Double black is important for Hexmage, which is where petal is better. But when cutting fast mana for sideboarding, I take petal first generally.

I've been doing it wrong! Lol, just kidding. I typically sideboard heavily into black (Hymn to Tourach) so I typically cut ESG's (which I think is reasonable.) Maindeck Confidant also changes the dynamic quite a bit.

[Hockeypr0]

Hey guys, I've been on a mission to find the sweet spot between Lands and Turbo depths and finally found a balance. I've been playing similar lists for a couple months now but the most recent David Long lists have really inspired the kind of playstyle I was looking for. GB Turbo Lands has the advantage of being more "Turbo" than conventionnal RG, and is more resilient/grindy/controllish than Turbo. Here's the list I've been up to this past week :

Land (35)
1x Barren Moor
2x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Cabal Pit
4x Dark Depths
1x Forest
3x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
2x Maze of Ith
1x Swamp
4x Thespian's Stage
1x Tranquil Thicket
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
2x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills

Enchantment (5)

4x Exploration
1x Manabond

Creature (8)

4x Dark Confidant
4x Vampire Hexmage

Instant (4)

4x Crop Rotation

Sorcery (4)

4x Life from the Loam

Artifact (4)

4x Mox Diamond

Sideboard (15)

3x Abrupt Decay
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Choke
2x Dread of Night
1x Krosan Grip
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
3x Sphere of Resistance
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Tireless Tracker

I've been lucky enough to summon Marit Lage on T1 twice last week ( "Mox Mox DD Vamp Land Land Land" and also "Land Urborg DD Thespian Manabond" on T1. The deck is also very grindy but relies heavily on the graveyard for card advantage and recusion. With the arrival of Bob, I can now stop relying on my graveyard and play a similar game as "Slow depths". I feel like Bob is really the glue that holds this deck together flipping cards for zero and beating with Hexmage (if needs be) will eventuslly kill your opponent (which I couldn't really do with my last list). There's also a lot of versatility with the lands package. I didn't include Tabernacle since my draws are very often quick enough to kill on T3-4 so Glacial Chasm and 2 Maze of iths is enough for protection (1 knight will kill fast and be almost unaffected by Tabernacle). In long games, I have the 7 land destruction package to grind my opponent to a zero land board, etc.

The main reason for my post is basically to get knowledge on how to play agaisnt UB shadow decks. I feel overwhelmed by their 2-3 threats and Glacial Chasm doesn't keep me safe because of their wastelands. They also disrupt the combo (with wasteland or counterspell my crop of rotation) so it's been a tough matchup. What kind of plays should I try to do in order to improve my matches?

[Sinkhole]

List looks very interested. I am unfamilar with Lands and new to Depths, so not sure if that helps. You said Bob is the glue of the deck, if it`s so and it really relies on it, I would consider to add 2 Librarys, when it`s possible to go down to 33 Lands. It´s not Bob, but it works similar and is much harder to handle for your opponent, also it`s a hell of a grinding station and copy number 5 and 6 of Bob, so you got a higher drawing rate for your opening hands. And like in traditional Turbo Depths you might think of some Protection for Swords and Edict the 20/20 is very vulnerable. Dryad Abor would a option against Edicts, for Swords Sylvan Safekeeper. But I don`t know how much you can go away from traditional Lands.

[ComplexPants]

That is an interesting deck, but it seems very much you have switched out Red for black. Which basically means you don't have gamble, but bob instead. And your secondary win condition of a lock and punishing fire is gone. Too bad you can't loam off of bob's trigger. That would just be gross.

[Sinkhole]

Have you guys thrown away the fast mana turbo plan or are you still on it? I stick with it. I have just returned from a local 5 round tournament and catched a 4 - 1. I have only lost to Moon Stompy.
I haven`t made notes, because I was to excited and after the 3 - 0 really thrilled too :tongue:. I won against ANT (2:1), Ub Shadow`s (2:0), Deathblade (2:0), Moon Stompy (0:2), Sneak and Show (2:1).
I think the deck is still in a mediocore - good position, but I am not sure, if it will be so after Ass Trophy see some play. I won many of my matches by going off fast on turn 3 - 4 and I played full package of fast mana with 2 Sylvan Library for some grind. So I don`t know, if trimming the deck to Slow Depths is the right way for moving it forward.

Regards

[Mr. Safety]

I'm on fast mana still (4 petal/3 esg) and Confidant x3 maindeck. T1 Bob's are really, really good. I see no reason to play slow depths anymore, not without DRS. Shaman enabled fast starts while getting your threat count higher.

[Sinkhole]

I'm on fast mana still (4 petal/3 esg) and Confidant x3 maindeck. T1 Bob's are really, really good. I see no reason to play slow depths anymore, not without DRS. Shaman enabled fast starts while getting your threat count higher.

Yes I think fast mana + Bob or Library is the way to go. I played one Inquistion of K. over the 3rd Library, but I think Library would be better in that slot. Do you think Trophy will hurt the deck really hard?

[Alfy]

I’ve given a list with 4 Assassin’s Trophies a whirl today, and I’ve certainly enjoyed its versatility. Sure, it’s removed stuff that could have been taken care of by the usual suspects, but I’ve also used it on a threatening Gurmag Angler when I was struggling to put my combo together. One could argue it would have been better to draw said combo piece rather than the Trophy, but again, the versatility is great. It’s truly amazing to have a card in hand that can deal with ANYTHING.

On the other hand, it slows the deck a lot, as two colored reactive mana is a lot more than one colorless “preventive” mana for a Pithing Needle. I also met a elves deck that was packing it, I assume as a 4-of, and it ran me over. Sure, discard helps, but the fact they can respond by targeting any useful land you might already have in play if they feel like slowing you down really hurts.

I haven’t played much Depth in the past, so maybe I don’t have enough of a framework to work with, but I’d be surprised if the Trophy does not impact it one way or another, that card is something special.

[Negator77']

I’ve given a list with 4 Assassin’s Trophies a whirl today, and I’ve certainly enjoyed its versatility. Sure, it’s removed stuff that could have been taken care of by the usual suspects, but I’ve also used it on a threatening Gurmag Angler when I was struggling to put my combo together. One could argue it would have been better to draw said combo piece rather than the Trophy, but again, the versatility is great. It’s truly amazing to have a card in hand that can deal with ANYTHING.

On the other hand, it slows the deck a lot, as two colored reactive mana is a lot more than one colorless “preventive” mana for a Pithing Needle. I also met a elves deck that was packing it, I assume as a 4-of, and it ran me over. Sure, discard helps, but the fact they can respond by targeting any useful land you might already have in play if they feel like slowing you down really hurts.

I haven’t played much Depth in the past, so maybe I don’t have enough of a framework to work with, but I’d be surprised if the Trophy does not impact it one way or another, that card is something special.

The card is probably best for Depths as a sideboard card imo. The main deck can stay lean and focus on the kill. I'm testing a 2/2 Decay/Trophy split in the SB. It's great vs the non blue decks, but I prefer Decay when looking for answers to things like BTB/Counterbalance or creatures out of the tempo decks (shadow, etc). Trophy is flat out nuts in anything remotely resembling the mirror.

[Mr. Safety]

The card is probably best for Depths as a sideboard card imo. The main deck can stay lean and focus on the kill. I'm testing a 2/2 Decay/Trophy split in the SB. It's great vs the non blue decks, but I prefer Decay when looking for answers to things like BTB/Counterbalance or creatures out of the tempo decks (shadow, etc). Trophy is flat out nuts in anything remotely resembling the mirror.

Does it improve the Lands matchup? That always seemed very difficult to grind through for me, especially if they get a t1 Exploration. I'm on the prowl for ways to fight Miracles too (which is why I'm on confidant) if you have any suggestions.

[Hopo]

Does it improve the Lands matchup? That always seemed very difficult to grind through for me, especially if they get a t1 Exploration. I'm on the prowl for ways to fight Miracles too (which is why I'm on confidant) if you have any suggestions.

Miracles: Sylvan Library, Bitterblossom, Choke

[Mr. Safety]

Sylvan Library is a given, Choke is *ok*, Bitterblossom is good. I've tried them all. Library is a staple, and is fine if I resolve it. Choke is actually a decent idea to try again, but I don't know how to find room in the sideboard. I'm already crammed tight.

Suggestions for how to work in Choke?

3x Abrupt Decay
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Rite of Consumption
1x Karakas
2x Golgari Charm
2x Sylvan Library
2x Surgical Extraction

[Negator77']

Does it improve the Lands matchup? That always seemed very difficult to grind through for me, especially if they get a t1 Exploration. I'm on the prowl for ways to fight Miracles too (which is why I'm on confidant) if you have any suggestions.

I believe it does. They usually board in Trackers which is another annoying engine even if you Surgical their Loams. Previously, you either had to ignore it (aka win before they find it and it takes over), get lucky and nab it with discard, or run decays that are very mediocre in the mu. Trophy cleanly answers Tracker while hitting any of their lands, exploration, and any other random permanents that pop up. There will always be a good use for Trophy in the mu unless they lock you out before you get to BG mana.

As far as miracles goes, I like the mu vs the current AK version... but I'm on blue spells, so the mu is very different compared to BG. The traditional ways strong BG players have fought Miracles are Bob, Sylvan, Rite, etc.

[Mr. Safety]

I believe it does. They usually board in Trackers which is another annoying engine even if you Surgical their Loams. Previously, you either had to ignore it (aka win before they find it and it takes over), get lucky and nab it with discard, or run decays that are very mediocre in the mu. Trophy cleanly answers Tracker while hitting any of their lands, exploration, and any other random permanents that pop up. There will always be a good use for Trophy in the mu unless they lock you out before you get to BG mana.

As far as miracles goes, I like the mu vs the current AK version... but I'm on blue spells, so the mu is very different compared to BG. The traditional ways strong BG players have fought Miracles are Bob, Sylvan, Rite, etc.

Thanks for that, it might be the first actually good argument for AssTrophy in a specific matchup. The miracles approach I have seems to check out, I have all of those elements (plus Hymn to Tourach for combo decks that incidentally hits Miracles as well.)

[Mr. Safety]

I'm heading to FNM this week, taking this deck. Hope to do well, maybe pick up another Safekeeper if the shop has one.

[Sinkhole]

I'm heading to FNM this week, taking this deck. Hope to do well, maybe pick up another Safekeeper if the shop has one.

Wish you great success dude!
How many Safekeepers do you own? I think you should be fine with two. I have tested Trophy in the main. I did a 3/2 Splitt of Needle and Trophy and wasn`t really impressed. Most of the time it doesn`t do anything that needle couldn`t have done too, or better. Needle is faster, pro active, which saves you your mana for your combo turn and colorless mana is easier to spend often times. I haven`t seen random stuff like Humility, that Decay couldn`t hit. Yes it`s never dead, but in a few situations the color combination was a bit of a problem. I think it`s a really good card for the side not for main. On the other hand, did you guys have much trouble with opponent`s Trophys?

[Mr. Safety]

Wish you great success dude!
How many Safekeepers do you own? I think you should be fine with two. I have tested Trophy in the main. I did a 3/2 Splitt of Needle and Trophy and wasn`t really impressed. Most of the time it doesn`t do anything that needle couldn`t have done too, or better. Needle is faster, pro active, which saves you your mana for your combo turn and colorless mana is easier to spend often times. I haven`t seen random stuff like Humility, that Decay couldn`t hit. Yes it`s never dead, but in a few situations the color combination was a bit of a problem. I think it`s a really good card for the side not for main. On the other hand, did you guys have much trouble with opponent`s Trophys?

I have 1 currently, with a copy of Green Sun's Zenith to fetch it out. It actually worked out well because I also maindecked a Dryad Arbor, which is another form of acceleration with GSZ. The maindeck Arbor also supports some doubled Cabal Therapy's. I toyed with doing a small toolbox, but meh, I think just getting another Safekeeper is the way to go.

I don't have any Assassin's Trophy's yet, and I predict the LGS will be sold out. I'm waiting until I see a good reason to buy them (the Lands matchup might push me over the edge.)

[ComplexPants]

I am trying to come up with a backup plan for the sideboard. I am nervous about Ego being played in delver, and Grixis control. Also elves just being able to slow us down with trophy to the point they go off.

Right now I am just thinking Lily TLH and crucible effects. I used to have trackers, which were awesome in the mirror.


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[Mr. Safety]

I am trying to come up with a backup plan for the sideboard. I am nervous about Ego being played in delver, and Grixis control. Also elves just being able to slow us down with trophy to the point they go off.

Right now I am just thinking Lily TLH and crucible effects. I used to have trackers, which were awesome in the mirror.


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Ego? Did you mean Diabolic Edict?

Lily TLH seems solid, but it definitely puts you on the grinding plan. The biggest reason for me playing 2x Golgari Charm isn't just D&T, it also slows the Elves deck down a turn or 2. I'm not sure about the matchup, having yet to play it. The crucible effect I think we want is Ramanup Excavator, something I really want to jam in my sideboard but godammnit I can't find a slot to cut for it.

[filln]

Ego? Did you mean Diabolic Edict?

Lily TLH seems solid, but it definitely puts you on the grinding plan. The biggest reason for me playing 2x Golgari Charm isn't just D&T, it also slows the Elves deck down a turn or 2. I'm not sure about the matchup, having yet to play it. The crucible effect I think we want is Ramanup Excavator, something I really want to jam in my sideboard but godammnit I can't find a slot to cut for it.

Ego = Unmoored Ego

As for Elves, if you're on the traditional Turbo plan then it's a good matchup for us. We're typically a turn faster and G1 they have no ways to meaningfully interact with our combo. Double Golgari Charm seems excessive in an unknown meta at least.

[Mr. Safety]

Ego = Unmoored Ego

As for Elves, if you're on the traditional Turbo plan then it's a good matchup for us. We're typically a turn faster and G1 they have no ways to meaningfully interact with our combo. Double Golgari Charm seems excessive in an unknown meta at least.

It takes the slots usually dedicated to Dread of Night. Doesn't seem excessive to me at all; in fact, I feel like it might not be enough based on how popular D&T has become.

[Alfy]

Does it improve the Lands matchup? That always seemed very difficult to grind through for me, especially if they get a t1 Exploration. I'm on the prowl for ways to fight Miracles too (which is why I'm on confidant) if you have any suggestions.

I might be late for this, but yes, I believe Assassin's Trophy improves the Miracles matchup. It'll do nothing to speed your game, and admittedly might even slow you down (by taking the place of a tutor or an accelerant), but it has been helpful in every game I have against them by taking away something important as the game was going long, usually a planeswalker or Azcanta.

At first, that might not seem much, as these cards are not direct threats, but stopping them from turning the corner after depleting their hands either through discard or simply by forcing them to counter your stuff has been key for me: when the combo comes, sometimes for the second time, they're defenceless. I have tried the alternative of putting pressure through Bitterblossom, and I think it's equally valid, but it's not nearly as versatile. Talking from a MODO perspective, this is even more true with Azorius Helm becoming a thing (again?).

[ComplexPants]

Hey guys, I've been on a mission to find the sweet spot between Lands and Turbo depths and finally found a balance. I've been playing similar lists for a couple months now but the most recent David Long lists have really inspired the kind of playstyle I was looking for. GB Turbo Lands has the advantage of being more "Turbo" than conventionnal RG, and is more resilient/grindy/controllish than Turbo. Here's the list I've been up to this past week :

Land (35)
1x Barren Moor
2x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Cabal Pit
4x Dark Depths
1x Forest
3x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
2x Maze of Ith
1x Swamp
4x Thespian's Stage
1x Tranquil Thicket
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
2x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills

Enchantment (5)

4x Exploration
1x Manabond

Creature (8)

4x Dark Confidant
4x Vampire Hexmage

Instant (4)

4x Crop Rotation

Sorcery (4)

4x Life from the Loam

Artifact (4)

4x Mox Diamond

Sideboard (15)

3x Abrupt Decay
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Choke
2x Dread of Night
1x Krosan Grip
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
3x Sphere of Resistance
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Tireless Tracker

I've been lucky enough to summon Marit Lage on T1 twice last week ( "Mox Mox DD Vamp Land Land Land" and also "Land Urborg DD Thespian Manabond" on T1. The deck is also very grindy but relies heavily on the graveyard for card advantage and recusion. With the arrival of Bob, I can now stop relying on my graveyard and play a similar game as "Slow depths". I feel like Bob is really the glue that holds this deck together flipping cards for zero and beating with Hexmage (if needs be) will eventuslly kill your opponent (which I couldn't really do with my last list). There's also a lot of versatility with the lands package. I didn't include Tabernacle since my draws are very often quick enough to kill on T3-4 so Glacial Chasm and 2 Maze of iths is enough for protection (1 knight will kill fast and be almost unaffected by Tabernacle). In long games, I have the 7 land destruction package to grind my opponent to a zero land board, etc.

The main reason for my post is basically to get knowledge on how to play agaisnt UB shadow decks. I feel overwhelmed by their 2-3 threats and Glacial Chasm doesn't keep me safe because of their wastelands. They also disrupt the combo (with wasteland or counterspell my crop of rotation) so it's been a tough matchup. What kind of plays should I try to do in order to improve my matches?

I decided to give this deck a try and it is very interesting. Much faster than I thought it would be and even successfully won a game off of Bob beats while threatening a combo. I haven't played against UB shadow yet or any delver for that matter ( 2x burn, UB artifacts and some leyline jank) but I think you need Ass Trophy. It is such a good card. I think glacial chasm is a bad card in this deck. We don't have a lock with it like RG lands does. They can slowly do 1-2 points of damage a turn using punishing fire where GB can't. Needle goes a long way to help stop them in the stock list, but my fear with this deck is it doesn't have main deck answers to tempo. With punishing fire, you can generate card advantage and act as removal for their smaller threats. Part of me wonders if doing something crazy like a Jund build might work. The punishing fires are really key IMO. But if you can blend in black to give some speed and allow for decay or trophy that might be spicy. Seems like a hard mana base though.

*edit: the one thing I do see is, you need tabernacle in the main. It is such a hugely powerful card that it shouldn't really be overlooked. It makes delver decks cry.

[ComplexPants]

Small update to the post above:

Beat UB shadow 2-1 (both wins post board), 4C Loam 2-0, lost to BR Reanimator 2-0 and SnS 1-2. Blood moon is still a big problem. I have moved 2 AT and 1 AD to main and I am trying out discard at the expense of loam and exploration.

I am going much more the mana denial plan with this deck, which may be wrong, but there are a lot of mana greedy decks since DRS has gone away. Still haven't played miracles, D&T or other delver variants.

[ComplexPants]

Sry....double post

[Mr. Safety]

Well, once again I am going to try and get to FNM this week. I'm chomping at the bit get some real testing of Cabal Therapy/maindeck Dryad Arbor.

[ComplexPants]

This is what I am testing atm. I haven't been as thorough as I might want, work and all. But it has been able to out grind some grindy decks and out pace burn. Pretty pleased with it. I have talked to a few people and they have suggested at 4th urborg and doing something besides loam. The fear being that it opens up DD to surgical. So far, I haven't been using Loam as an engine, as much as game 1 surprise and to keep a land hate game going.

I am kind of worried about missing Steppe, as that is a great surprise finisher and important in the mirror. I am not sure where I want to fit it in the 75 though. The other thing I have been kicking around is morphing this into a bit of a 2 color loam deck. Perhaps drop some of the focus on Depths, maybe go down 2 combo pieces and put in some just plain beaters.

10 Creatures
2 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage

20 Spells
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crop Rotation
3 Exploration
4 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Assassin's Trophy
2 Life from the Loam

30 Lands
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
2 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
2 Maze of Ith
1 Swamp
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

15 Sideboard
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Dread of Night
2 Duress
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Tireless Tracker

[Hockeypr0]

This is what I am testing atm. I haven't been as thorough as I might want, work and all. But it has been able to out grind some grindy decks and out pace burn. Pretty pleased with it. I have talked to a few people and they have suggested at 4th urborg and doing something besides loam. The fear being that it opens up DD to surgical. So far, I haven't been using Loam as an engine, as much as game 1 surprise and to keep a land hate game going.

I am kind of worried about missing Steppe, as that is a great surprise finisher and important in the mirror. I am not sure where I want to fit it in the 75 though. The other thing I have been kicking around is morphing this into a bit of a 2 color loam deck. Perhaps drop some of the focus on Depths, maybe go down 2 combo pieces and put in some just plain beaters.

10 Creatures
2 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage

20 Spells
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crop Rotation
3 Exploration
4 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Assassin's Trophy
2 Life from the Loam

30 Lands
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
2 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
2 Maze of Ith
1 Swamp
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

15 Sideboard
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Dread of Night
2 Duress
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Tireless Tracker

Your list looks really good, having the thoughtseizes certainly helps pushing the first Marit Lage through for the win and helps against faster combo decks which we desperately need help with.

I agree with you that Sejiri Steppe is an important card, especially since you play thoughtseize. It's also worth noting that it can save your Bob/Vampires if you really need them! I would either cut the 2nd Forest or thr 2nd Maze of ith to fit it in. The 4th Urborg could indeed be a nice inclusion to have additionnal chances to combo T2 and is never really a problem having in multiples since Mox Diamond can pitch it.

The 2 Sylvan Safekeepers don't seem to fit too well in your list since you have recursion with Loam, you might want to consider cutting them to add more Thoughtseize effects or perhaps add the 4th Exploration & 3rd Loam?

Otherwise, the list looks great. I'm happy you're getting success on your side as well. This deck seems to be able to play really well on so many different levels, it's a blast.

[ComplexPants]

Your list looks really good, having the thoughtseizes certainly helps pushing the first Marit Lage through for the win and helps against faster combo decks which we desperately need help with.

I agree with you that Sejiri Steppe is an important card, especially since you play thoughtseize. It's also worth noting that it can save your Bob/Vampires if you really need them! I would either cut the 2nd Forest or thr 2nd Maze of ith to fit it in. The 4th Urborg could indeed be a nice inclusion to have additionnal chances to combo T2 and is never really a problem having in multiples since Mox Diamond can pitch it.

The 2 Sylvan Safekeepers don't seem to fit too well in your list since you have recursion with Loam, you might want to consider cutting them to add more Thoughtseize effects or perhaps add the 4th Exploration & 3rd Loam?

Otherwise, the list looks great. I'm happy you're getting success on your side as well. This deck seems to be able to play really well on so many different levels, it's a blast.

Thanks, the list is kind of a hybrid between yours and David Long's. The 3 basics is a hedge towards trophy, but that might be not needed. I might drop to 1x safe keeper for steppe and maybe -1 forest for urborg. Also to note, Safe keeper can protect all your creatures, repeatedly. Steppe more importantly, bypasses creatures with protection, mass tokens and opposing Lage's.

I'll test it more. I still want a decent secondary win condition in the board. Green creature package doesn't seem bad, but I think it needs something else. I am almost debating goyf.

[Mr. Safety]

Played at FNM, went 2-2. Beat Rug Delver and 12Post, lost a close one to Lands (made a big mistake) and lost to Miracles. I pulled out a win in every match, and i feel like practice will help my win percentages. The deck is pure gas, so much fun.

List:
4x hexmage
3x bob
1x safekeeper
1x dryad arbor
4x spirit guide

4x petal
4x crop rot
4x thoughtseize
2x duress
2x cabal therapy
3x pithing needle
3x sylvan scrying
1x expedition map
1x green suns zenith

4x depths
4x stage
4x verdant catacombs
1x bayou
1x swamp
1x forest
2x blooming marsh
3x urborg
1x gq
1x steppe
1x bog

Side
3x decay
3x hymn
2x rite of consumption
2x sylvan library
1x karakas
2x surgical extraction
1x golgari charm
1x marsh casualties

[adrieng]

Went 4-1 at local with the followig list :


// 60 Maindeck
// 7 Artifact
3 Expedition Map
4 Pithing Needle

// 4 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage

// 4 Enchantment
4 Sylvan Library

// 7 Instant
4 Crop Rotation
3 Abrupt Decay

// 26 Land
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Khalni Garden
1 Maze of Ith
3 Llanowar Wastes

// 12 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Sylvan Scrying
3 Duress


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void

// 3 Creature
SB: 3 Sylvan Safekeeper

// 4 Instant
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay

// 2 Land
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Maze of Ith

// 3 Sorcery
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Duress




beat storm 2-1 opponent missplayed, I think I'll play some mindbreak trap instead of chalice in side, lost to moon stompy 1-2, then beat UR stiflewaste delver 2-1 (mull to 5 opponent g1 g2 double delver +wasteland and I side out needle thought he was on UR burn, g3 turn 3 token with some discards) ; miracle 2-1 (lost g1 to b2b and can't find decay, kept a greedy hand g2 with no green/black source but lot of discard surgicals/safekeeper draw my lands late in game but it still win, g3 had a good hand with double discard (kozile/cabal+garden) and a library that gets there) and grixis control 2-0 (g1 turn one discard turn 2 library turn 3 mage+depth followed by garden +discard g2 some discard he had a couple of strix had sejiri in hand he HTT a 3 cards hand but didnt hit sejiri that won me the game).

I am playing a 3 off decay main cause I was always entering them it gains space in side for combo without reducing too much the number of tutors. I also had very problematics games against miralce (B2B specially without them).

feel like everything is fine expect for moon stompy but if you want to beat it consistantly you have to destructure too much the deck, I prefer scooping to it for now.

I know some people are on HTT I tested them in side and feel it was not good enough, I want something that wins if not answered vs storm and HTT is bad against reanimator.

I have ten discard main and feel it is not enough ; but I want a different option maybe mindbreak trap or trinisphere + a one off ancient tomb might be an option.

Second maze in side is for deathAndTaxes, I feel this matchup is winnable even without DoN but you have to be a little lucky on the oppening hand and play very properly

[Mr. Safety]

I think Cabal Therapy is amazing in this deck, it was so good against Miracles. I played 3 close games against Miracles, winning g2 off the back of Cabal Therapy. I definitely want a 3rd copy of that in my maindeck.

I am trying to figure out the Lands matchup, and I have a few ideas. The big thing I realized is that Rite of Consumption isn't an out to Glacial Chasm. Lands actually has some pretty difficult ways to stack up interaction (Karakas, Wasteland, Port, Maze, Chasm.) I was playing *one* Ghost Quarter and 3 Needles. This is one matchup where I think the 4th Needle goes a long ways.

I had a couple guys imploring me, like almost begging me, to play Assassin's Trophy in the deck. I'm still not convinced; I already have answers to the specific problems the format presents and I'm not really in the market for a 'generically' good removal spell.

What is everyone's thoughts on AssTrophy, yes/no and why?

[filln]

I am trying to figure out the Lands matchup, and I have a few ideas. The big thing I realized is that Rite of Consumption isn't an out to Glacial Chasm. Lands actually has some pretty difficult ways to stack up interaction (Karakas, Wasteland, Port, Maze, Chasm.) I was playing *one* Ghost Quarter and 3 Needles. This is one matchup where I think the 4th Needle goes a long ways.

I had a couple guys imploring me, like almost begging me, to play Assassin's Trophy in the deck. I'm still not convinced; I already have answers to the specific problems the format presents and I'm not really in the market for a 'generically' good removal spell.

If you're having difficulty with the Lands matchup then perhaps that would be a compelling reason to use Assassin's Trophy?

[Mr. Safety]

If you're having difficulty with the Lands matchup then perhaps that would be a compelling reason to use Assassin's Trophy?

So far, that's the only compelling argument. I could also argue that I wouldn't be able to squeeze in more than 1-2 copies, given the need for other sideboard cards (and it would definitely be a sideboard card.) I could also accomplish the same with a 4th Needle and a 2nd Ghost Quarter in the sideboard, both of which are also decent against Death and Taxes. I could also board a 2nd Ghost Quarter and a Ramanup Excavator, which seems even better than Assassin's Trophy in a longer game.

The other part of the argument, and one that pulls a lot of weight for me, is this: I don't face Lands very often, there is only 1 player at the local using it and maybe 2 players at any sort of larger tournament locally (50 players, on average.) Do I beef up the sideboard for that matchup? In most matchups where I want a removal spell, Abrupt Decay does the job (Blood Moon, Chalice, Back to Basics, Mentor, Baleful Strix, Delver variants.)

What has been everyone's experience with Lands? I had quite the (almost heated) discussion with a couple local guys that said the Lands matchup is favored for Turbo Depths (same guys imploring for me to use Assassin's Trophy.) Neither has played on the Lands side and both have limited experience with Turbo. I tend to disagree, calling it maybe 50/50 g1 and slightly unfavored g2. It's always been a slog for me, a bunch of back-and-forth between me landing a Needle for one of their lands and then they draw into another piece that I need to grind through.

TL;DR - I'm still not convinced AT is correct for this deck. Prove me wrong.

[Hopo]

TL;DR - I'm still not convinced AT is correct for this deck. Prove me wrong.
Just trying to understand why you still want people to convince you of a card you clearly are not willing to play? Move on. There is no law saying you have to play it so don't.

[Mr. Safety]

Just trying to open discussion. I'm hoping for DNSolver and other super-experienced pilots to pipe in. I've been wrong before, I'm looking for either confirmation or debunking.

[JackaBo]

Just trying to understand why you still want people to convince you of a card you clearly are not willing to play? Move on. There is no law saying you have to play it so don't.

AT is the most flexible card ever printed. Dismissing it is fine, but dismissing it because other cards have more applications is just wong. This card deals with bridge, solitary confinement, blood moon, peacekeeper, a blocker, and many more cards in addition to all the cards that needle and GC deals with.

[ComplexPants]

AT is the most flexible card ever printed. Dismissing it is fine, but dismissing it because other cards have more applications is just wong. This card deals with bridge, solitary confinement, blood moon, peacekeeper, a blocker, and many more cards in addition to all the cards that needle and GC deals with.

The big debate over AT is the comparison to Decay. Decay hits the vast majority of targets that hurt this deck and is uncounterable, and until just recently wasn’t considered a main deck card. Trophy does few other special things, notably Jace, Angler, Batterskull and Eldrazi. The biggest distinction between the two is Trophy can hit land (duh).

I think what Safety is getting at is more of the comparison between needle and Trophy. Needle can handle wasteland, Karakas and many of the threats that annoy this deck, but where needle really lacks is straight up land hate. There are a handful of top tier decks right now that just don’t run basics. Trophy is gold here, as it is wasteland 5-8. So, I would say if you want more land hate, I would consider it.

I am running a 2:1 split between Trophy and Decay in the main. I am specifically doing this because I am running 4 wastelands, a ghost quarter and a few loams to prey on land. I round about spoke with a David Long (3rd place at an SCG open with a grindy list) said he doesn’t think this deck needs trophy. But again, I am pushing a little more land hate than the average bear.


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[ComplexPants]

Also, the lands match up is all about speed. They will put grind you. So if you can hit the ground running you will be favored. They can always find an answer, but in the last few times playing them I have won because I was just plain faster. That being said I have also been hopeless wastelanded out of the game.


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[Mr. Safety]

I think if you're playing Wasteland you're likely avoiding Pithing Needle, at least not using it maindeck as protection from Wasteland/Karakas/etc. I don't plan on playing the slower mana-denial version at the moment, I want to keep it Turbo, but I'll keep it in mind. As additional Wastelands/land hate Trophy does seem very good, another good argument if that is a direction I want to take.

So in regards to lands, mulligan into a fast combo?

[downtoonelife]

My teammate plays RG Lands and he is very good at it. Based on our several match on a tournament, he likely wins if he has turn 1 Exploration. In short, if he can assemble the lock pieces (Loam + Wasteland/Ghost Quarter) or assemble the combo faster (Marit Lage) then he surely wins the match. I'm lucky if I can get a draw with him. But through experience, I am now 3-0 against his RG Lands: 2-0 every time. Faster hand, Pithing Needle (I upgraded to 4 MD), Sylvan Safekeeper, 1 Karakas (use to be in my SB) and Rite of Consumption from the SB are the reason I beat him now. He haven't had good finish with RG Lands that's why he changed deck and now plays PW (7 MD) BUG Lands. We already faced twice in a tournament and I lost twice to him. He made it to top 8 yesterday in our local tournament (I was 9th). His list has 4 Chalice, 1 Echoing Truth, 1 Edict, 3 Abrupt, 2 JTMS, 2 LotV, 1 Pernicious Deed, 4 Wasteland, 1 GQ, 2 Loam, 1 Karakas, 1 Maze of Ith MD. I think he got the idea from Lincoln Baxter.

I'm going to put 2 Assassin's Trophy in my SB since I have space now because I'm going to put in 3 Abrupt Decay MD.

[McPwnr]

Heya peeps,

I found that with the (traditional) lands match up you can prevent them from comboing game one by naming thespian stage with needle and this should also stop them winning unless they have a stage out already and copy something with it. Apart from punishing fire I don’t think there’s anyway they can win from there as K grips are in sideboard. Game two is a bit different as they can deal with the needle...

Hope this helps 👍

[Mr. Safety]

Most lists use Molten Vortex x1 in the main, sometimes a 2nd in the side. With Loam, that's a pretty fast clock. I'm not saying it's consistent, but it's a way to kill us if they can buy enough time with Wasteland/Port. Good call on the Needle naming Stage; it's risky because we HAVE to draw into Hexmage, but it can work. This is one matchup where 4 Needles is ideal. I might get the 4th one back into the sideboard.

[DNSolver]

I streamed with Assassin's Trophy last night. Catch those games - the first league I played two in the board, second league one in the board while trying Togores' list.

Edit: Yes, Lands will kill you with Punishing Fire. Needling Stage doesn't do anything to stop them from winning. Needling the effects that they have that you can't beat, such as infinite Ghost Quarters / Wastelands, is more effective for most builds of Depths.

[Ingo]

Using Punishing Fire as a killcon in Lands happens, with 6 manasources (2RRR+grove) and 2 Punishing Fires you do three damage a turn. That's why I don't think Needling Stage will help you win the Lands matchup, thei're probably better spent in helping you win faster (naming waste/quarter/maze/Karakas?), as you probably want to avoid the long game.

[Mr. Safety]

I streamed with Assassin's Trophy last night. Catch those games - the first league I played two in the board, second league one in the board while trying Togores' list.

Edit: Yes, Lands will kill you with Punishing Fire. Needling Stage doesn't do anything to stop them from winning. Needling the effects that they have that you can't beat, such as infinite Ghost Quarters / Wastelands, is more effective for most builds of Depths.

Will it be available on YouTube, or was it Twitch only? Thanks for piping in.

Also, what was your conclusion? Was it worth it's slots?

[solnox]

I've replaced Grip with Trophy in my board. So far, its been alright

[Negator77']

Guested on Phil Gallagher's stream tonight. We ran my Bug Depths list. Anyone that is interested can see the matches here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/326980919

[Jax-]

Guested on Phil Gallagher's stream tonight. We ran my Bug Depths list. Anyone that is interested can see the matches here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/326980919

The stream was very very good, had fun and learned a lot, I spammed in the chat a little bit but thats ok I think.
I have to say, even if im very biased because I play the deck too, that this deck is awesome. Going 5-0 at the first try, even if Phil was tutored by you (but Phil was on the right track most of the time because hes really good at the game), its impressive.
The deck feels like it have plays vs pretty much everything you can face, have those fast starts/free wins kinda of hands but going for the slow guranteed kill is more likely and almost always the correct line to take.
I know, I know, brainstorms are awkward at first, mana base looks weird, it could take some reps to get used, I still have a lot to learn, but the results im getting are really positive.
The general consensus says that Depths is bad placed now, we are down to 2% of the meta share. I think its wrong, deck is super underplayed for no reason, DnT are lower in numbers now, way lower than just after the bans, Moon Stompy is almost extinct, StP.decks are still a pain to play against and 4C Loam is growing, but we have the tools to fight them and we have a big piece of the cake thats favourable (Grixis Control, Eldrazi and Delver decks).

[apple713]

https://cdn1.mtggoldfish.com/images/gf/Unmoored%2BEgo%2B%255BGRN%255D.jpg

This card is not good for us or basically all of combo in legacy. In Shadow, Grixis control, or delver it seems like bad news unless we can combo asap.

If this really becomes and issue I see the deck pivoting to a living wish version.


Also, im not sure who was talking about it but if you start considering gsz the next logical though is the inclusion of knight of the reliquary. Imo shes way better than bob. If she sticks im pretty sure you win. She tutors for all of you land answers like quarter, wasteland, maze, and steppe or she just swings for lethal. She has interesting interactions with maze and she doesnt get karakas’d. She was basically printed for this deck.

[Hopo]

She was basically printed for this deck.

This deck aims to kill by attacking for 20 on turn 3. Knight is a 3 mana off-color creature with summoning sickness who loves huge graveyards. It was literally not printed for this deck.

[Mr. Safety]

This deck aims to kill by attacking for 20 on turn 3. Knight is a 3 mana off-color creature with summoning sickness who loves huge graveyards. It was literally not printed for this deck.

I agree. Bob supports the plan by distracting removal and drawing extra cards, something this deck can use, without any commitment beyond a low curve (which this deck already has.) Knight of the Reliquary requires a support structure that completely changes the functionality of the deck. There's a reason Aggro Loam only plays 1x Stage/Depths and no Hexmages. It's all they can fit in there once the synergy is established.

I've moved over to a maindeck discard suite of 3x Thoughtseize/3x Cabal Therapy/2x Duress, and I've been very happy with it. The games where I draw into Therapies have been much better than games without. I may be a little biased due to my love of Therapy, but Turbo Depths is already a combo deck that rewards format knowledge. Therapy is a fairly logical inclusion.

[hovercraft]

If this really becomes and issue I see the deck pivoting to a living wish version.


Also, im not sure who was talking about it but if you start considering gsz the next logical though is the inclusion of knight of the reliquary. Imo shes way better than bob. If she sticks im pretty sure you win. She tutors for all of you land answers like quarter, wasteland, maze, and steppe or she just swings for lethal. She has interesting interactions with maze and she doesnt get karakas’d. She was basically printed for this deck.

Knight would lead more towards a slightly slower Junk Depths kind of list. Could even have Solemnity as a 1 or 2 of at that point for resiliency. But losing the Turbo speed is a big downside.


I agree. Bob supports the plan by distracting removal and drawing extra cards, something this deck can use, without any commitment beyond a low curve (which this deck already has.) Knight of the Reliquary requires a support structure that completely changes the functionality of the deck. There's a reason Aggro Loam only plays 1x Stage/Depths and no Hexmages. It's all they can fit in there once the synergy is established.

I've moved over to a maindeck discard suite of 3x Thoughtseize/3x Cabal Therapy/2x Duress, and I've been very happy with it. The games where I draw into Therapies have been much better than games without. I may be a little biased due to my love of Therapy, but Turbo Depths is already a combo deck that rewards format knowledge. Therapy is a fairly logical inclusion.

Most Loam players actually don't even run 1x Depths/Stage anymore. Knight is often a 2 turn clock on its own anyway.

[apple713]

This deck aims to kill by attacking for 20 on turn 3. Knight is a 3 mana off-color creature with summoning sickness who loves huge graveyards. It was literally not printed for this deck.

I only suggested the inclusion of knight IF you were already sold on running green suns zenith. So if you are running 3x gsz you should have 1-2 knights. The only reason I brouht it up was because other people had mentioned gsz.

Also, you may aim for that goal of t2 token but expect to miss it alot. Warping the deck expecting to increase that specific window a miniscule amount will ultimately sacrifice overall win %. Look at belcher for example.

[adrieng]

Did anyone tryied dark tutelage it is a dark confidant who doesn't get hit by removals and it is better than phyrexian arena in our deck total casting cost of the cards <60 and easier to hardcast.

I am testing it instead of the 4 off sylvan library in my list.

EDIT : i tested the card and it is too slow i prefer keeping the library for now.

[JDK]

Bob baits removal though and protects from Edict. Two vs. three mana makes a huge difference as well in these decks.

[solnox]

Did anyone tryied dark tutelage it is a dark confidant who doesn't get hit by removals and it is better than phyrexian arena in our deck total casting cost of the cards <60 and easier to hardcast.

I am testing it instead of the 4 off sylvan library in my list

3 CMC. Thats not happening on my draw engine.

[downtoonelife]

I Top 8 today in a small tournament. Played this list below:

3 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Lotus Petal

3 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Vampire Hexmage

2 Expedition Map
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying

2 Assassin's Tropy

4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress

4 Pithing Needle

3 Verdant Catacomb
4 Thespian Stage
3 Urborg, TOmb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
1 Swamp
3 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri, Steppe
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Rite of Consumption
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Damping Sphere
1 Ramunap Excavator

R1 2-0 vs Miracles
R2 0-2 vs Infect
R3 2-0 vs Maverick
R4 2-1 vs Goblins
R5 1-2 vs Grixis Control
QF 1-2 vs Infect (Same player R2)

Next event I'll splash 1 blue dual and 3 Flusterstorm in the Sb. Flusterstorm would really help vs combo and control match up.

[JDK]

I really have to spell it out for yall. Knight is a reusable manaless crop rotation on a creature. Not only does she bait removal she also protects herself. She can even tutor for dryad arbor so you dont have to worry about sacrificing her to edict. She also doesnt cost you life each turn. Oh and you cant green suns zenith for bob....I'm not denying that two vs three mana makes a difference but jesus christ listen to what I'm saying. If you are already playing green suns zenith, just add 1-2 knights, its a no brainer.

Not sure why you are quoting me.

[ComplexPants]

I have been testing out a grindy list with Bob recently. Currently I have about a 62% win rate with the deck, which is decent. However, I just finished up a league with it, and got crushed, 1-4.

R1: Miracles 0-2
R2: Miracles 1-2
R3: Lands 1-2
R4: Eldrazi post 2-0
R5: RUG Delver 1-2


I don't know if I am having a bad day, but the deck felt really bad with these match ups. Basically if I could stick a Bob, I would win. If Bob didn't stick, I just lost. I am thinking about going back to full turbo depths. I'll check out your stream Negator.

As a side note, I was testing out GSZ (x2), and was debating KotR. However, my main issue was that I would have to warp the mana base a bit more to play her. I didn't like the concept of getting her stranded in my hand. But yes, I did consider her as a potential back up plan.

[ComplexPants]

@Negator

How do you feel the BUG match up is against Miracles is? I enjoyed the stream, but notice that there is no main deck protection for merit with safe keeper or NoTW. It feels like any deck playing swords is just horrible for you.

[Negator77']

@Negator

How do you feel the BUG match up is against Miracles is? I enjoyed the stream, but notice that there is no main deck protection for merit with safe keeper or NoTW. It feels like any deck playing swords is just horrible for you.

It has 8 discard spells and the usual crop/steppe line for game 1 protection (sometimes Stifle or Bog for Snap/Plow). Post board Extractions to either remove plows, mess with protective brainstorms, and counter Snapcasters help a lot. Flusterstorm is also pure gasoline in the mu. I feel like a slight dog game one and am very comfortable in the mu post board.

[ComplexPants]

It has 8 discard spells and the usual crop/steppe line for game 1 protection (sometimes Stifle or Bog for Snap/Plow). Post board Extractions to either remove plows, mess with protective brainstorms, and counter Snapcasters help a lot. Flusterstorm is also pure gasoline in the mu. I feel like a slight dog game one and am very comfortable in the mu post board.

After seeing your stream I am debating your list for EW. Also considering Solnox's here: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1428969#online

I think my list may have gone too far off into grindy territory and I need to move it back a bit.

[Negator77']

After seeing your stream I am debating your list for EW. Also considering Solnox's here: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1428969#online

I think my list may have gone too far off into grindy territory and I need to move it back a bit.

Gotcha. You should join the Lands Discord channel if you aren't already there (Depths has its own spot on the Lands Discord). Solnox and I (among others) are working on lists there. It's just a much faster way to bounce things off of each other including game states, mull decisions, etc.

[ComplexPants]

Would love to join. I haven’t used discord much at all, so I would need a bit of help finding my way there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jubeininja69]

there's a lot of useless banter on discord compared to on here. you just need to weed thru it.

[Mr. Safety]

Dredge seems to be sneaking into the format again; I did a bunch of test games with a friend at the LGS. The matchup seems very good for Depths, honestly. They can get the nuts and win t2, but more often they are t3-4. It really just reinforces the need for maindeck Bog. I think much of the format will struggle with Surgical Extraction as their only outs, but not Depths. I feel very comfortable in the matchup, and I hope it drives change into the format to make it a little more soft to Depths.

Anyone else seeing an uptick of Dredge, maybe on MagicOnline?

[JDK]

I played in a 5 round + top8 tournament about two weeks ago, and faced Dredge twice (same player in round 4 and QF, but there was another Dredge player....and two Reanimator.dec).
His dredges were mediocre, but Bog really shines (I always wanted a second, though xD) and helped me beat it in both matches.

[Mr. Safety]

I played in a 5 round + top8 tournament about two weeks ago, and faced Dredge twice (same player in round 4 and QF, but there was another Dredge player....and two Reanimator.dec).
His dredges were mediocre, but Bog really shines (I always wanted a second, though xD) and helped me beat it in both matches.

I feel like racing is also an option. Dredge is fast, and broken AF, but it still has to race a t2-3 Marit Lage. One life may as well be a million if they don't have a Narc to block with. I think Depths is favored slightly g1, and post-board even more so. More dredge in the format (which hammers D&T, Grixis, and Miracles) means Depths gets a little better aligned. I honestly hope Dredge keeps this up. :smile:

[Negator77']

Anyone else seeing an uptick of Dredge, maybe on MagicOnline?

It won three of the four mtgo legacy Challenges this month and split with Miracles in the finals of the 4th(a mu where they are favored). It's finally starting to see heavier play in leagues too.

[apple713]

Dredge seems to be sneaking into the format again; I did a bunch of test games with a friend at the LGS. The matchup seems very good for Depths, honestly. They can get the nuts and win t2, but more often they are t3-4. It really just reinforces the need for maindeck Bog. I think much of the format will struggle with Surgical Extraction as their only outs, but not Depths. I feel very comfortable in the matchup, and I hope it drives change into the format to make it a little more soft to Depths.

Anyone else seeing an uptick of Dredge, maybe on MagicOnline?

I haven't played in a while but logically it makes sense with DRS no longer in the format.

Yes we are favored both games. instant speed bojuka is really bad for them. So are surgicals. Hexmage isnt good for them either cause it can remove their bridges and block most of their deck. Oh and tabernacles against manaless dredge.

[filln]

I haven't played in a while but logically it makes sense with DRS no longer in the format.

The popularity of Miracles and Grixis Control has pushed Dredge into a great position, as well as the continued dominance of Surgical Extraction over more effective, but slower grave hate.

[Mr. Safety]

It won three of the four mtgo legacy Challenges this month and split with Miracles in the finals of the 4th(a mu where they are favored). It's finally starting to see heavier play in leagues too.

Cool, thanks for the info. I was noticing it at the local, didn't know if it was global.

[adrieng]

Is there any debate of
extirpate
vs
surgical extraction in side ?

surgical is better versus br reanimator while extirpate is better against miracle and lands (they can't dredge in resp loam).

I have found that i often enter extirpate/surgical vs Br rea/dredge/lands/miracle/maverick and sometimes one or two to fight opponents surgical against tempoish decks.
what about splitting 3 surgicals to 1 surgical and 2 extirpate ?

Or one cc versus 0 and 2 life is way better ? Is extirpate really way worse ?

After trying decay maindeck I have reput them back in side and just concede G1 on b2b against miracle if it resolves. I prefer for now having something more consistant.
I also added the 4th llanowar waste main instead of a khalni garden to increase conistency. 12 black sources + 4 map is better. I am now on mindbreak trap in side it is the best hate against storm if you don't play blue.

I think there is no reason to play bog/karakas maindeck but it certainly depends of your meta they increase issues of mana base. I don't even have karakas in side. Maze of ith is a card i want to see in at least half the matchups so it does deserve a maindeck space



// 60 Maindeck
// 8 Artifact
4 Expedition Map
4 Pithing Needle

// 4 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage

// 4 Enchantment
4 Sylvan Library

// 4 Instant
4 Crop Rotation

// 26 Land
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
3 Khalni Garden
4 Llanowar Wastes
1 Maze of Ith

// 14 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Duress


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Creature
SB: 3 Sylvan Safekeeper

// 9 Instant
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Extirpate/ surgical ?

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog

// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge

[Mr. Safety]

I feel that we need a free way to interact with br reanimator and dredge, so i am sticking with surgical. Our 1-mana grave hate is crop rotation>>>bog. I'm even debating a Ravenous Trap because of the uptick of dredge in my local.

I think Liliana, the last hope, sylvan library, and dark confidant are all better than extirpate against miracles. Surgical is still superior in the lands matchup, and if lands becomes prevalent than some number of asstrophy comes in.

[adrieng]

If you are really worried by dredge just add a second bog in side.
extirpate is better than surgical in the land matchup they can't dredge in resp.

[Alfy]

Considering the online meta I'm meeting these days, I decided to go full nuclear and add 4 Leylines to the sideboard. It does weaken some other matchups (some other cards had to go), but I feel it's a reasonable choice: I meet Reanimator systematically, dredge regularly, and then there are a few matchups that don't actually requiring any sideboarding, such as Burn (which has been pretty much an auto-win, even playing Slow Depths rather than Turbo). Added to this I considered this a deck that's actually capable of hard-casting a Leyline turn 3 if worst comes to worst.

[Mr. Safety]

If you are really worried by dredge just add a second bog in side.
extirpate is better than surgical in the land matchup they can't dredge in resp.

Doh! Missed that. Loam isn't the only juicy target, but I get it. I'm not really worried about Dredge, at least not the quad-laser zombies lists that are prevalent. The Dread Returns out of the sideboard are a little scary, but that is a situation where Surgical/Extirpate shine even better than g1. I tested about 12 games (pre and post board) against a recent winning list and lost 2 of them. Preboard slightly favored, post-board more favored.

Looks like 2 Depths lists made t8 in the most recent Eternal Weekend, one labeled as 'Slow Depths.' I'm guessing this means Wasteland + Mox Diamond over Lotus Petal/ESG, but I'm not sure. I can't find the winning lists on mtgtop8 or tcdecks yet.

[ComplexPants]

They were both Long Depths. Basically what Solnox has been playing.

It is what I played as well. But I just got varianced to shit this weekend.

R1: Burn - easy 2-0

R2: Elves - Game one I went off turn 2 and he had a bad hand game 2. 2-0

R3: TES - He combo’d turn 3 when I was presenting lage. Game 2 he combos turn 2. 0-2

R4: LED Dredge - he had a slow start and I managed to naturally bog him. Still able to play through and go off before I could merit. Game 2 he made 25 power on turn 1 and ripped my hand apart (on 6) with cabal. Nice guy. 0-2

R5: Miracles - had all the answers at the right times. 0-2

R6: Lands - 2-1. Game 3 was the only interesting one where I surgicalled his depths and he surgicalled my stages. I got there with bitterblossom.

R7: Red Prison - 2-1. Top decked combo in game 1 when I was dead on board. Game 2 turn 1 moon. Game 3 bob did work. Got 2 of them and beat down to 4. He wipes the board and my diamonds, but I manage to find combo before he can kill me. He made a small misplay but could have beaten me otherwise.

R8: Eldrazi stompy - 1-2. Game 3 was a race. He got there one turn before me with 2 smashers. I had combo to kill next turn.

I dropped here to play side events.



Overall I had a fun weekend with my buddy, but Card Titan did a horrible job running the event. I don’t plan to go next year.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[H]

Overall I had a fun weekend with my buddy, but Card Titan did a horrible job running the event. I don’t plan to go next year.

Damn, what happened? I haven't gone in a couple years, but they seemed pretty well run when they were still in Philly.

[ComplexPants]

Damn, what happened? I haven't gone in a couple years, but they seemed pretty well run when they were still in Philly.


Random 30 minute pause because the pairings system broke. No cloth tops on the tables, all bare wood. I always do VIP with my buddy, but they lost the VIP lanyards, put the area outside the bag check area so you constantly had to get checked. They mischarged us for side events. Multiple scheduled events didn't fire because not enough people, but they wouldn't make an announcement to see if more people would play. When my event didn't fire, they didn't refund the right amount to my card. Just generally got the sense they didn't care and wanted to leave ASAP. Commentary was also pretty subpar. Half the time you couldn't see what cards were being played because of glare.

Also, they still haven't posted a top 8 page for legacy like they did for Vintage. Haven't even posted the winners. Feels very amateurish, I wasn't very impressed and going to events is expensive and I don't have all the time in the world. So I will be going to a GP or something else in the future.

[H]

Random 30 minute pause because the pairings system broke. No cloth tops on the tables, all bare wood. I always do VIP with my buddy, but they lost the VIP lanyards, put the area outside the bag check area so you constantly had to get checked. They mischarged us for side events. Multiple scheduled events didn't fire because not enough people, but they wouldn't make an announcement to see if more people would play. When my event didn't fire, they didn't refund the right amount to my card. Just generally got the sense they didn't care and wanted to leave ASAP.

Also, they still haven't posted a top 8 page for legacy like they did for Vintage. Haven't even posted the winners. Feels very amateurish.

Ah, that's unfortunate. It always seemed like they put in a good effort before, but all those things (minus the computer system braking) were likely very preventable with some diligence. Who knows, maybe they just couldn't get the same staff as they had in previous years.

[ComplexPants]

They had issues last year too. Like the VIP playmats didn’t get shipped to the event at all.

As you said, with a touch of effort it could have been taken care of.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Alfy]

Also, they still haven't posted a top 8 page for legacy like they did for Vintage. Haven't even posted the winners. Feels very amateurish, I wasn't very impressed and going to events is expensive and I don't have all the time in the world. So I will be going to a GP or something else in the future.

Ah, I was wondering if I was incompetent when I could not find those top 8 lists.

[ComplexPants]

Ah, I was wondering if I was incompetent when I could not find those top 8 lists.

There is incompetence...but it isn't coming from you.

[Negator77']

Streamed a league with BUG Depths again today.. This time with Ark4n for anyone that is interested.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/332459343

[Alfy]

Streamed a league with BUG Depths again today.. This time with Ark4n for anyone that is interested.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/332459343

Thanks for that! I had a go at the deck yesterday (just solitaire-goldfishing and one - winning - match in a league), and the deck feels quite different from my usual BG Slow Depth. I already watched the 5-0 when you were a guest on Thraben (great run and you guys were tons of fun to watch), and more material is welcome.

[Mr. Safety]

Streamed a league with BUG Depths again today.. This time with Ark4n for anyone that is interested.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/332459343

Cool, I'll check it out. There are 2 very specific things holding me back from attempting BUG depths: Underground Sea and Tropical Island. I understand I could attempt it with fastlands or painlands (Submerge-proof land plan) but it doesn't seem feasible with 3 colors, especially considering the fetch/dual mana-base is what feeds Brainstorm the best.

[JDK]

Same with Bayou and Usea. Maybe if someone buys my Spiral Tide I will reconsider playing a Bayou list instead of R(u)G Lands/BG Budget Depths. :D


Streamed a league with BUG Depths again today.. This time with Ark4n for anyone that is interested.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/332459343
Ark4n11 seems pretty impatient compared to your previous stream partner. Definitely enjoyed the previous stream more.

[Jakobian1010]

http://www.cardtitan.com/legacy

FYI top8 lists are up for EW results, I also have a list of decks I played against in my "a deck per week challenge" thread here.


http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31160-A-deck-per-week-challenge/page6

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks for the link!!!

To make discussion easier:

Matthew Dilks 3rd place list:

4 Dark Confidant
3 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Vampire Hexmage
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin’s Trophy
4 Crop Rotation
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Sylvan Scrying
4 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library
4 Mox Diamond
3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Swamp
4 Thespian’s Stage
4 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland

Sideboard:

1 Assassin’s Trophy
2 Bitterblossom
1 Choke
2 Duress
1 Karakas
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Marsh Casualties
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge

Jake Weinman 8th place list:

4 Dark Confidant
3 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Crop Rotation
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
2 Sylvan Scrying
4 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library
3 Mox Diamond
3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Swamp
4 Thespian’s Stage
4 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:

1 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Dread of Night
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Duress
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Karakas
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tireless Tracker

Very similar lists, but some minor changes. Both are on Mox Diamond/Wasteland/maindeck removal. Both trimmed back on tutors and discard to fit in removals. The other notable difference is Dilks played Bitterblossom sideboard, Weinman played GSZ/Teeg/Tracker. The rest is really just moving numbers around or using preferred removals (Toxic Deluge vs Dread of Night, etc.)

[jubeininja69]

so is the turbo version fallen out of favor? most lists nowadays are bobs, diamonds and a mix of other cards.

[adrieng]

yeah in the meta tempo doesn't see so much play maybe it is time to put these needles in side and add some surgical maindeck for all these graveyards deck/combo decks/control deck (snappy) ?

[ComplexPants]

There are two main versions right now. BUG and BG. BUG has maindeck brainstorm and stifle with fluster in the board and is very well suited to miracles and combo. BG is much more grindy and is better suited to a fair meta and is better at fighting DnT.

I will say Bitterblossom is the real deal. If people don't know you have it, it really messes up there game 2 and 3. You can see how fast it beat miracles in the EW quarters and it completely unhinged lands for me. It is a very solid plan B and makes it difficult to chose a game plan against the deck.

[Mr. Safety]

I'll be taking Turbo Depths to a 1K on 12/1, looking for some feedback to prep for the tournament.

1) Has anyone tried Pernicious Deed in the sideboard? With the fast mana and few permanents outside of lands, it seems like it could be really good. Getting to 3 mana shouldn't be an issue, even under a Thalia.

2) Ramanup Excavator + Ghost Quarter #2 in the sideboard seems good, seeing as how I'm dedicated to the 1x GSZ in the maindeck. I'm looking to shore up the Lands matchup.

3) I've tried Hymn to Tourach in the sideboard for Miracles, and it's ok, but I'm leaning towards Choke instead. Bitterblossom was my old tech, but I traded them away. If it's necessary I'll pick them up again, probably 2. I also have extra copies of GSZ and a Gaddock Teeg. Looking for feedback on the best Miracles tech.

4) With the success of Slow Depths, would Tarmogoyf out of the sideboard be good as a transformational plan? The last time I tried it was with DRS, which made it essentially Rock-minus-white. With maindeck Confidant it would present a ton of threats and help to shore up D&T. I wouldn't use Gurmag because of Bobs, and unfortunately I don't have the Mox Diamonds.

5) Debating swapping Abrupt Decay for Pithing Needle main/side. Wasteland at the local level is at a low point and grindy control is at a high point. Back to Basics and Baleful Strix are more prevalent than Wasteland. Shadow decks are also on the rise, which uses Wasteland but almost never 4, which Abrupt Decay is very good at beating.

Thanks in advance! Aside from the usual challenges in the metagame (Miracles/D&T) I think Depths is actually well-placed. Dredge, odd combo decks like 12Post, and slower, grindier decks are becoming prevalent in my metagame again. I've also gotten a ton of practice in with my particular version of Turbo and I'm confident in how to pilot it. With these last few details worked out I think I can do some real damage in December.

[apple713]

I'll be taking Turbo Depths to a 1K on 12/1, looking for some feedback to prep for the tournament.

1) Has anyone tried Pernicious Deed in the sideboard? With the fast mana and few permanents outside of lands, it seems like it could be really good. Getting to 3 mana shouldn't be an issue, even under a Thalia.

2) Ramanup Excavator + Ghost Quarter #2 in the sideboard seems good, seeing as how I'm dedicated to the 1x GSZ in the maindeck. I'm looking to shore up the Lands matchup.

3) I've tried Hymn to Tourach in the sideboard for Miracles, and it's ok, but I'm leaning towards Choke instead. Bitterblossom was my old tech, but I traded them away. If it's necessary I'll pick them up again, probably 2. I also have extra copies of GSZ and a Gaddock Teeg. Looking for feedback on the best Miracles tech.

4) With the success of Slow Depths, would Tarmogoyf out of the sideboard be good as a transformational plan? The last time I tried it was with DRS, which made it essentially Rock-minus-white. With maindeck Confidant it would present a ton of threats and help to shore up D&T. I wouldn't use Gurmag because of Bobs, and unfortunately I don't have the Mox Diamonds.

5) Debating swapping Abrupt Decay for Pithing Needle main/side. Wasteland at the local level is at a low point and grindy control is at a high point. Back to Basics and Baleful Strix are more prevalent than Wasteland. Shadow decks are also on the rise, which uses Wasteland but almost never 4, which Abrupt Decay is very good at beating.

Thanks in advance! Aside from the usual challenges in the metagame (Miracles/D&T) I think Depths is actually well-placed. Dredge, odd combo decks like 12Post, and slower, grindier decks are becoming prevalent in my metagame again. I've also gotten a ton of practice in with my particular version of Turbo and I'm confident in how to pilot it. With these last few details worked out I think I can do some real damage in December.

I love deed... but not in this deck. I always expect it to crush against D&T but it doest always work out like that. Their mana denial is a real hinderance. Playing it early means you buy a few turns cause they slow you with threats and you have to keep mana open to threaten using it. Playing it late just doesnt work because 3 mana + activation mana... playing it without activation mana means phyrexian revoker amongst others are a threat.

It was good against other decks but I always too it out of my sideboard eventually.

Hymn was always good to me. Especially as extra discard against control and combo.

Im not sure what matches goyf really helps with. Many times he is a wall and you don’t have enough card types to make him huge. A vanilla 3/4 is underwhelming in legacy. This is not the card you want against d&t. Mom is an issue.

I never liked choke. It always sounds better than it plays.

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks for the response. Combo is at an all timelow at the local, blue control is prevalent. I have had the opposite experience with choke (out of rocksideboards), every time i'vr landed it i have won. The only spot to cut is hymns, and i feel that therapy in the main is a pseudo hymn.

What do you think about gq #2? I feel like it is generally a good card in a few matchups. Again, something has to give, i'm looking for historical context and experience. I am still new to this deck, under a years worth of experience.

[apple713]

Thanks for the response. Combo is at an all timelow at the local, blue control is prevalent. I have had the opposite experience with choke (out of rocksideboards), every time i'vr landed it i have won. The only spot to cut is hymns, and i feel that therapy in the main is a pseudo hymn.

What do you think about gq #2? I feel like it is generally a good card in a few matchups. Again, something has to give, i'm looking for historical context and experience. I am still new to this deck, under a years worth of experience.

not sure what list you are running exactly but many lists have a very delicate balance of lands that can't be messed with too much. We have about 11-12 spots that can't be touched (depths, stage, urborg). Since it sounds like your desire to include more than 1 GQ is based on your specific meta, i'll share my approach below.

My approach to deciding how many of any card follows

4x I'd always like to draw this. If I could have more I probably would. Duplicates are good.
3x I'd like to see this about once a game. Early game or late game doesnt matter too much. Duplicates arn't the best.
2x I'd like to see this about once a match or every other game. Duplicates are not good but one seeing 1 copy is very good / good enough to justify inclusion. (cards that are only good in particular situations common in the meta fall into this category but only where they have a good general use outside of that situation)
1x I really dont plan to draw this ever but when I do it can be helpful. The gameplan is to include just 1 because I plan to tutor for it and it can be a great silver bullet in game 1. Duplicates may be really really bad.

Not for this deck but if you are playing a bunch of cantrips ad 1 to the rational behind the number of copies to include, so 1x becomes 2x, 2x becomes 3x, and 3x becomes 4x.

[Mr. Safety]

That is helpful, thanks. I was thinking gq#2 in the side.

EDIT: List =

4x Vampire Hexmage
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
3x Dark Confidant
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
4x Lotus Petal
3x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Crop Rotation
3x Pithing Needle
3x Sylvan Scrying
1x Green Sun’s Zenith
1x Expedition Map

4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian’s Stage
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Bayou
2x Blooming Marsh
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x bojuka bog
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Dryad Arbor

2x Surgical Extraction
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Golgari Charm
1x karakas
2x Rite of Consumption
2x Choke
2x Sylvan Library
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Ramunap Excavator

[downtoonelife]

Just came from another small paper tournament, 5 rounds of swiss.

My list:

3 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Lotus Petal

3 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Vampire Hexmage

2 Expedition Map
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying

2 Assassin's Tropy

4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress

3 Pithing Needle

4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Thespian Stage
3 Urborg, TOmb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
1 Swamp
3 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri, Steppe
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tropical Island
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Rite of Consumption
3 Flusterstorm

R1 vs Maverick 2-0
R2 vs B2B Miracles 2-0
R3 vs Infect 1-2
R4 vs Grixis Control 2-0
R5 ID
QF vs Elves 2-0
SF vs UW Delver 2-0
Finals vs Infect 0-2 same guy that beat me R3

I side in Flusterstorm vs Miracles, Infect and Grixis Control but I never really felt the impact of the card. So I'm not really sure if I going to stick with this plan. Might go back to Hymn to Tourach or other discard spell instead. Same with the 2 Assassin's Trophy main. It's either I don't get to draw the card or even when I have it in my hand I'm already winning so maybe just leave it in the sideboard.

Anybody having a hard time beating Infect? I've lost to Infect last tournament also - in the swiss and Quarterfinals.

[Alfy]

I haven't met Infect in ages. But I am getting beat a lot these days by tempo delver decks, including the new brand of UR Wizards/burn stuff. Of course, I play the Slow Depth version with Dark Confidant rather than the faster version with Elvish Spirit Guide.

It's actually starting to grate. I've even had RUG stuff managing to get under me, where just one bit of disruption was enough to slow me down, so by the time Marit Lage hit the field, I was dead anyway to a bunch of Goyfs and Delvers. Those are the times I wished I was playing Turbo. And then there's the control decks, some of which pack so much disruption, I wouldn't imagine taking them on without some means to recover, and that's Bob for the moment. Sometimes I'm thinking of a transformational SB where I would switch between Slow and Turbo, but then I'd just abandon the rest of the field, which seems too much for the moment.

To go back to your question: Infect is really a combo deck, although one that puts you on a clock no matter the hand disruption, unless you manage to take their one creature when on the play. Nevertheless, I tried playing Flusterstorm in BUG Depth, and I have played combo decks, and my personal take is that what really hurts combo while you try to setup your own stuff is still hand disruption, not counters. You already play 8 discards MB, which is really good. I've tried playing Hymn this weekend following the results of EW, and while weak to Daze decks, it's been really good shredding combo decks' hands apart. But I play Mox instead of Petal, not sure you can afford to play the 2 mana discard without losing too much momentum. You also have Abrupt Decay (which you should always play on your turn to force them to waste a Vines if they feel like it), so really, you're well set up. If you feel you absolutely need more, maybe you could consider a Maze of Ith?

[adrieng]

R1 vs Maverick 2-0
R2 vs B2B Miracles 2-0
R3 vs Infect 1-2
R4 vs Grixis Control 2-0
R5 ID
QF vs Elves 2-0
SF vs UW Delver 2-0
Finals vs Infect 0-2 same guy that beat me R3

looking at the matchups you faced karakas and bojuka bog were dead cards in all the games while maze of ith would have been good against maverick, infect, grixis control, Uw delver and infect.
There is really no reason to play karakas and bojuka bog main.

[downtoonelife]

Yup Maze would have help me with the Infect match up. I was actually debating on my list to fit in Maze but opted to keep Karakas since there are other Dark Depths players in our meta together with SNS and Reanimators. Bog is not a dead card even game 1 vs Miracles, UW Delver and Maverick. There was one match with Maverick where I bog my opponents yard because the Knight of Reliquary is already a 9/9 creature. I'm more debating over which one to md, if its Karakas or Dryad. Same with Inquisition over Hymn in the SB?

[Mr. Safety]

I haven't met Infect in ages. But I am getting beat a lot these days by tempo delver decks, including the new brand of UR Wizards/burn stuff. Of course, I play the Slow Depth version with Dark Confidant rather than the faster version with Elvish Spirit Guide.

It's actually starting to grate. I've even had RUG stuff managing to get under me, where just one bit of disruption was enough to slow me down, so by the time Marit Lage hit the field, I was dead anyway to a bunch of Goyfs and Delvers. Those are the times I wished I was playing Turbo. And then there's the control decks, some of which pack so much disruption, I wouldn't imagine taking them on without some means to recover, and that's Bob for the moment. Sometimes I'm thinking of a transformational SB where I would switch between Slow and Turbo, but then I'd just abandon the rest of the field, which seems too much for the moment.

What is the 'rest of the field' that you mention? The decks that give Depths combo a hard time haven't changed: Miracles and Death and Taxes.

I was on the Slow Depths list for a long time, and one thing I've learned after switching to Turbo: Turbo Depths is already a good, grindy deck post-board. I think there is a perception, one I had for a long time, that it's just another glass-cannon. Looking at the amount of disruption it plays with 11 maindeck slots (8 discard, 3 needle) it's definitely not your run-of-the-mill glass cannon; it already plays more disruption than Storm, Infect, Elves and Dredge. It plays about the same amount of disruption as Show and Tell and Reanimator. Once you apply the sideboard, you can cut fast mana and play Library, Decays, and additional hate cards. I think one easy way to give you the 'value' feel of Slow Depths without compromising speed is to simply cut some number of slower tutors (Sylvan Scrying, Expedition Map, however I don't go below 3) for Dark Confidants. I can honestly say that this is, hands down, the best Dark Confidant deck I've ever played. Taking an already grindy combo deck and making it more controlling doesn't make a lot of sense to me anymore. It just can't compete on the card advantage level that other decks bring to the table, unless you get so close to Lands that you should probably be playing that deck instead (or Jund, Nic Fit, Maverick, etc.) Once card advantage is the goal, the glass cannon looks less and less appealing. I know the feeling of 'trying to have it all', and I feel it's a trap.

TL;DR - squeeze in maindeck Confidants and your Turbo Depths deck can become a 'slow depths' list post-board, and IMHO its the best approach. It's not really transformational, it's just one change that can give you the 'slow grind' play you need.

Regarding Maze, that is another option for me to include in the sideboard for Lands. Definitely something I'm evaluating.

[Mr. Safety]

Negator77 went undefeated this weekend. I got all excited when I saw the 2nd Ghost Quarter in the sideboard, maybe cluing me into how to get one into mine, but I realized he wasn't maindecking one. Doh! He's on the Brainstorm/Stifle/Mox Diamond/Flusterstorm plan FYI.

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20485&d=334417&f=LE

[malekith]

As far as I know other archetypes like Lands or Aggro Loam play normally with the Marit Lage combo but singletons.

But when they take 4 copies of Dark Depths and Thespian Stage these lists are closer to our lists.

You can see here an example:

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20471&d=334256&f=LE

playing 4x Dark Depths 4x Thespian Stage 4x Crop Rotation but playing also with Life from the Loam + Exploration engine,
Pufi+Grove of the Burnwillows, etc.

[JDK]

As far as I know other archetypes like Lands or Aggro Loam play normally with the Marit Lage combo but singletons.

But when they take 4 copies of Dark Depths and Thespian Stage these lists are closer to our lists.

You can see here an example:

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20471&d=334256&f=LE

playing 4x Dark Depths 4x Thespian Stage 4x Crop Rotation but playing also with Life from the Loam + Exploration engine,
Pufi+Grove of the Burnwillows, etc.

Uhm, that's a pretty normal Lands list...

[Mr. Safety]

As far as I know other archetypes like Lands or Aggro Loam play normally with the Marit Lage combo but singletons.

But when they take 4 copies of Dark Depths and Thespian Stage these lists are closer to our lists.

You can see here an example:

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20471&d=334256&f=LE

playing 4x Dark Depths 4x Thespian Stage 4x Crop Rotation but playing also with Life from the Loam + Exploration engine,
Pufi+Grove of the Burnwillows, etc.

That's a stock Lands list. It hasn't changed more than 2-3 cards in the past year, mostly just the sideboard. Drop of Honey goes in and out of favor (also dependant on card availability), Tireless Tracker x2-3 has become stock, and some lists change the ratio of Chalice of the Void/Sphere of Resistance in the sideboard. I can't think of another deck that has changed less in the past year, lol.

[Alfy]

TL;DR - squeeze in maindeck Confidants and your Turbo Depths deck can become a 'slow depths' list post-board, and IMHO its the best approach. It's not really transformational, it's just one change that can give you the 'slow grind' play you need.


You mean putting the Confidants in the SB and bringing them out for slower matchups? Main issue for me is that my SB is tight as it is.

It’s entirely my fault: I take a hamfisted approach to sideboarding that is entirely predicated on a sober realization: I’m not a very good player and I will take all the help I can get. I will play 4 Leylines of the Void rather than 3 Surgicals because although I have my moments when playing against Reanimator or Dredge, they are few and far between. I usually miss that little spot that could have squeezed me that win round 1 (although sadly my theory is good enough that I will realize so a couple of hours later), so I need a shotgun rounds 2 and 3. I also play the extra Pithing Needles, Dread of Night, Chokes, and Lilianas, no “1-offs to give than extra percentage edge in each and every matchup” for me.

I played around with Negator’s BUG list yesterday and today. It feels exactly like I expected: a list for a good player. Sure, it’s still Depth, so you still have those few easy wins. But when games go long, you feel you’re right at the edge, and exact play is required to pull of the win. In exchange, you feel every matchup is doable, except round 1 Ensnaring Bridge somehow. I can play that for a short while, when I’m well rested, but I always end up slipping. Brainstorm is the more powerful card, but Confidant is the supporting cushion: no need to be extra smart to time his arrival, and if he sticks around, you will recover from a misplay.

Depth is still a bit of an oddity for me. I used to play Omni-Tell, and it was all about making sure you had them, only taking a risk when under pressure. With Depth, it too often comes down to seeing their hand and seeing they have nothing, calculating the odds of them drawing the right card during their next turn, and giving it a try. Taking more turns to find protection merely means giving them more turns to find their answer, as far as I can tell. It’s fine when it works, but it’s still a lottery. For me the Confidants are not about finding the combo the first time around, even if they can do that, it’s all about recovering when that lottery went wrong. I’m not sure I want to give that up even for one round.

[Mr. Safety]

You mean putting the Confidants in the SB and bringing them out for slower matchups? Main issue for me is that my SB is tight as it is.

Sorry I wasn't clear, that's not what I meant.

1) Play 3-4x Dark Confidant main
2) When you sideboard into a grindier strategy you already have a card maindeck (Bob) that makes it legit
3) You are better suited to fight sideboarded Edict effects with additional must-answer creatures main (Bob)

What I am saying is that Confidant is good enough for the maindeck, supporting the turbo strategy as well as the grind plan. If you already have Confidants main the grind plan out of the sideboard gets more reliable. You can board in Abrupt Decay, Sylvan Library, Choke, and because you already have maindeck Confidants your deck is much closer to a value-based mid-range deck. Confidant is the card that tips the scales on effectiveness, IMHO. Confidant and Library are incredible against Miracles/Grixis because you are actually matching them on card advantage/selection. I don't think its an exaggeration in saying Turbo Depths is the best Dark Confidant deck in legacy right now.

Make sense?

EDIT: Regarding playstyle, I was also hesitant to dive head-first into Depths after playing Deadguy/Rock/Nic-Fit for years. I realized that this deck rewards practice and format knowledge in a huge way, they are essential for success with the deck (not that I've been very successful yet, lol.) I have noticed a slow, gradual upward trend with the deck as I gain more experience. The 'lottery' feeling goes away when you nail down the right decklist, which for me ATM includes Cabal Therapy and Dark Confidant. I get outplayed but I don't lose to myself quite so much, lol.

[Mr. Safety]

So, blue splash for Flusterstorm is the new hotness? I know Negator77 has been on blue for Brainstorm and stifle, flusterstorm out of the board, but this version only has Trop + FStorm x3.

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20529&d=334948&f=LE

[downtoonelife]

So, blue splash for Flusterstorm is the new hotness? I know Negator77 has been on blue for Brainstorm and stifle, flusterstorm out of the board, but this version only has Trop + FStorm x3.

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20529&d=334948&f=LE

I just tried to splash blue to test Flusterstorm. This is also in preparation for GP Shizuoka since Japan meta has lots of Miracles and SnS decks. The BUG Depths players (Negator77, Jax, Jdm etc) are all advocating Flusterstom. And since Turbo Depths has some problem against other combo decks (Storm, SNS) Flusterstorm would be another tool to help against them aside from our discard spells. But this list needs more testing as Flusterstorm shines more with the BUG Depths list.

[Mr. Safety]

Storm is at an all-time low at my local store, everyone is on blue stews, D&T, Lands, Stompy variants, Dredge, Reanimator, and S&S. I might have *one* storm player at the 1K 12/1, and I don't feel the matchup is necessarily unfavored, probably closer to even. I'm not preparing too much for storm. I'm gearing up for Miracles, Grixis Control, Death and Taxes, Eldrazi, Dredge, and Elves. I think if I prepare heavily for those matchups I should do alright.

[Alfy]

Sorry I wasn't clear, that's not what I meant.

1) Play 3-4x Dark Confidant main
2) When you sideboard into a grindier strategy you already have a card maindeck (Bob) that makes it legit
3) You are better suited to fight sideboarded Edict effects with additional must-answer creatures main (Bob)

What I am saying is that Confidant is good enough for the maindeck, supporting the turbo strategy as well as the grind plan. If you already have Confidants main the grind plan out of the sideboard gets more reliable. You can board in Abrupt Decay, Sylvan Library, Choke, and because you already have maindeck Confidants your deck is much closer to a value-based mid-range deck. Confidant is the card that tips the scales on effectiveness, IMHO. Confidant and Library are incredible against Miracles/Grixis because you are actually matching them on card advantage/selection. I don't think its an exaggeration in saying Turbo Depths is the best Dark Confidant deck in legacy right now.

Make sense?

EDIT: Regarding playstyle, I was also hesitant to dive head-first into Depths after playing Deadguy/Rock/Nic-Fit for years. I realized that this deck rewards practice and format knowledge in a huge way, they are essential for success with the deck (not that I've been very successful yet, lol.) I have noticed a slow, gradual upward trend with the deck as I gain more experience. The 'lottery' feeling goes away when you nail down the right decklist, which for me ATM includes Cabal Therapy and Dark Confidant. I get outplayed but I don't lose to myself quite so much, lol.

Yes, what you say makes absolute sense. And I agree Depth is an excellent shell for Confidant. Plus every Fatal Push and Lightning Bolt is one less Edict in hand or even in their list or 3 that did not go to my face. It’s funny at times how the deck grinds through sheer threat of an insta-win rather than actually filling the battlefield.

The MTGO Leagues meta has become downright hostile recently, and people are packing a rather hefty amount of hate these days. More Wastes, more Needles, more Miracles and DnT. I even faced a deck that packed Needle AND Sorcerous Splyglass in addition to maindeck Stage and Karakas (seriously, who plays Needles, plural, AND Spyglass??). I guess I should probably blame Negator, Jax and co for their successes, but seriously, playing a combo deck and having people getting free wins round 1 against you just feels bad...

So I’m a taker for your current list: I currently have 2 Decays and 2 Trophies main, and while it’s nice to know I can always answer a bunch of stuff, I agree with you I need to go faster round 1 and leave the grind for when I know what I’m facing. Clearly what I’m doing now has stopped working, so let’s try something else.

[Mr. Safety]

Depths seems to be a very affordable option online, it has always seemed quite popular there. I don't play online so my local metagame is my only real consideration. At weeklies I've averaged a split in wins/losses, completely dependent on who was bringing their #1 deck choice or testing out janky alternatives. At an actual tournament it will be different; I expect to run into 2 bad matchups in 5-6 rounds and blast some fringe decks with the rest. It's getting close to a shift where people are starting to play decks that beat Miracles/Grixis, which leaves them wide open to Marit Lage.

I'll be sure to post results, and hopefully take notes in between rounds.

[filln]

The MTGO Leagues meta has become downright hostile recently, and people are packing a rather hefty amount of hate these days.

You can expect more hate going forward as more well-known players have been picking up or trying the deck... Bob Huang has been putting up good results online while David Long has been doing well in paper. Andrea Mengucci played the deck recently too. Depths has been underplayed for a while, so it's not surprising that the secret is coming out. :cool:

[solnox]

The MTGO meta is great. not sure where you're getting the hostility from but I've been cashing 4-1s and 5-0s consistently.

[Alfy]

The MTGO meta is great. not sure where you're getting the hostility from but I've been cashing 4-1s and 5-0s consistently.

2 weekends ago, I had a 4-1 and a very easy 5-0. Last weekend, I played 4 leagues, and met 9 Miracles, which makes it 45% of my matches! (at least one might have been Stoneblade, but I wasn’t making a difference by then) I also met 2 DnTs. I weirdly did not meet a single Reanimator, no Burn, and Dredge only twice (weirdly twice the same player in the same league), and tempo stuff managed to get under me, mostly thanks to Wasteland. Tuesday was a holiday here, and I played 2 more leagues. I again met a bunch of Wastelands, the aforementioned Needle and Spyglass, a Sneak and Show that ran me over with good hands, one DnT, and basically managed to get my wins against UR Delver and other tempo stuff (especially one player who decided to tap his Wasteland to get out Tarmogoyf. Twice.).

Sure, there was some serendipity, and I did not lose all my matches against Miracles, but I believe I managed 2 3-2s in 6 leagues, which is way below what I usually get with this deck, despite my low playing level. Might be bad luck, but the amount of maindeck hate sure felt brutal.

[malekith]

David Long's list made Third with Bobs and moxes:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=20578&d=335406&f=LE

[Alfy]

David Long's list made Third with Bobs and moxes:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=20578&d=335406&f=LE

No Karakas, only 2 Surgicals, the GSZ are exclusively for Gaddok Teeg… I assume he expected little Reanimator/Dredge, and a lot of Storm? (I wrote this before checking the other decks, but hey, what do you know, 2 ANTs in the top 16... :tongue:) I also notice he added Life from the Loam main, which I found a great card against Miracles.

[solnox]

I've recorded my last 130 or so matches and im currently at 71.4% win rate with a 7-2 record vs miracles, 5-2 vs grixis. 3-2 vs maverick, 8-3 vs DNT with the bob iteration of the deck.

MB Edicts, plow decks arent that big a deal. its the fast combo thats showing up again.

[Mr. Safety]

I've recorded my last 130 or so matches and im currently at 71.4% win rate with a 7-2 record vs miracles, 5-2 vs grixis. 3-2 vs maverick, 8-3 vs DNT with the bob iteration of the deck.

MB Edicts, plow decks arent that big a deal. its the fast combo thats showing up again.

Are you on mox diamonds? I'd live to see a list. I'm playing the deck in a 1k on 12/1, but i don't have diamonds.

[solnox]

https://imgur.com/a/CF0UT9A

my current list if I sleeved this up for a paper event.

Miracles feels like a walk in the park honestly now. DnT can still be rough but its much easier than before. KOTR decks are still an issue.

[Alfy]

Warming: salty post.

Well, it’s a holiday here, and after a very disappointing weekend, I decided it was time I stopped pretending I knew how to tweak lists and just picked up solnox one. The matchups did not disappoint: I started with 3 straight Miracles (seriously...). At least, it was a good chance to put the 2 Bitterblossoms in the sideboard to the test, alongside the 2 Lilianas, the extra Library and the single Choke.

Again, I’ll be the first to admit I’m not a good player, which is certainly why I have one single trophy at the moment while solnox has 8 (last time I checked). Still. My Bitterblossoms got disenchanted, counciled, celestial purged, and of course snap-cast disenchanted, counciled and celestial purged. I never got more than two fairy tokens on the field at any point. Liliana fared a little better, but never got there thanks to eot snapcasters, cliques, and even a venser. Third match, a timely Brainstorm hid a Humility from me, and once resolved, in the absence of any Trophy, I was left to dig one card at a time for a Liliana as my sole winning condition: not a good thing against Miracles draw engine.

Serendipity? 3 matches don’t make a valid test pool. Still, I fail to see how this is a good matchup in any way. Even with the odd Confidant surviving or the odd Library sticking, by the time I have seen say 15 cards, they have gone through more than half of their library. By that time, the cognizant Miracles players has shaped their hand accordingly and will not die to Bitterblossom. I’d hardly call that “being favored”.

Went 0-3, winning 2 games out of 8, still salty.

[Mr. Safety]

I played 3 rounds at the local yesterday, went 2-1. Beat Hypergenesis and Goblins, lost to Blue Painter. Yes my local is fringe-y.

List I played:

4x Vampire Hexmage
3x Dark Confidant
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Lotus Petal
4x Crop Rotation
3x Sylvan Scrying
1x Expedition Map
3x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
2x Duress
1x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Pithing Needle
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Bayou
1x Forest
1x Swamp
2x Blooming Marsh
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Sejiri Steppe
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Thespian's Stage
4x Dark Depths

Sideboard
1x Karakas
1x Golgari Charm
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Rite of Consumption
2x Choke
2x Sylvan Library
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Ramanup Excavator
2x Surgical Extraction


Goblins seems like a pretty decent matchup. I lost g2 because I didn't draw Depths or a tutor, got double Siege-Gang-ed. G1 I had a turn 3 win, G3 I had the natural combo without any acceleration, but I draw into Lotus Petal to kill him t4.

I won g1 against Hypergenesis because he mulled to 5, I land a t1 Confidant and then top-deck discard over the next couple turns. Lose g2 to Show and Tell>Omniscience>Emrakul. G3 I have combo on board, he combos, gets a pile of dudes but no emrakul. I have Sejiri Steppe in hand, gg.

Blue Painter I lose game 1 because I don't have a maindeck answer to Ensnaring Bridge. I Needle Grindstone, so he can't win either, but I'm drawing extra cards from Confidant. I concede. G2 I Needle a bunch of stuff and blast through with Marit Lage around t5. Cabal Therapy was aces. G3 he has a faster combo, I have only a Thoughtseize, for interaction which he Forces because he has a turn 3 kill.

I traded into a 2nd Safekeeper, so that is going in straight away. I will likely drop 1x Elvish Spirit Guide or the Map for it, not sure yet which. I'm leaning towards Map. I really do like the Green Sun's Zenith plan as acceleration and providing Arbor for Therapy fodder (without costing me a fetchland.) Excavator wasn't really anything I wanted to bring in, I think I'll drop it from the board. That may become Gaddock Teeg or Marsh Casualties, probably Casualties.

Super excited to take this to Saturday's 1K, hope to slam some 20/20's into people's faces.

[solnox]

@alphy. how are you sideboarding? and how are you sequencing your discard spells/CA engines. you dont really want to jam unless you have multiple 2s . Saying go on T1 with a discard spell with open U is perfectly acceptable. Jamming a seize on T3 into 2 drop library/bob/etc is great.

[Alfy]

@alphy. how are you sideboarding? and how are you sequencing your discard spells/CA engines. you dont really want to jam unless you have multiple 2s . Saying go on T1 with a discard spell with open U is perfectly acceptable. Jamming a seize on T3 into 2 drop library/bob/etc is great.

Well, for all my disclaimers, I’m not THAT bad a player... :tongue: No, I sequenced well enough that my threats did hit the field, for the most part. They just dug and dug and found the correct removals (Celestial Purge was a bad surprise).

As for the sideboard, I go:

OUT: 4 Mox Diamond, 1 Life from the Loam, 1 Ghostquarter, 1 Pithing Needle
IN: 1 Sylvan, 1 Choke, 2 Bitterblossoms, 2 Lilianas, 1 Wasteland

I still like to keep 2 Wastelands in to draw “naturally” to deal with Karakas, but that might be wrong. Let me know how you do it.