[Deck] Turbo Depths

[solnox]

from my build.

I board 2x Surgical (AK, plow, shuffles for terminus. You dont need 3. kind of a blank draw if you draw too many.), 1x Needle (JTMS, EE, Teferi, Azcanta, etc no more top. you only really need to see 1 to stop jace.), 2x Lili, 1 Library, 2x Blossom, +2 Duress, +Choke, (11)

- Maze, -2 Depths (Awful to draw in multiples, card gets stuck in hand, games go long enough to naturally draw into it. they surgical this anyways immediately if you combo), -2 Wasteland (hitting their 2 tundras and volcanics? garbage), -3 Diamond (Bad Topdeck. Card disadvantage,), -2 Scrying(you'll draw naturally due to how long games are. relying more on your enchantments anyways), -1 Loam (if you crushed em g1. you can keep it if you feel like you can cheese them. you can cut the 3rd wasteland if you want here instead). GQ is good b/c you can stage copy GQs and ghost em off white and just overall better than wasteland. making them shuffle away terminus or strip mine is also amusing.

For discard priority.> Jace/Permission to resolve your 2 drop.>Snapcaster.Mentor>The rest. Plow is very low on the discard priorities unless you only have bob and need it to live. lot of times you can discard a CA/Creature and have em plow a hexmage/bob and then you can surgical the rest. Leaving plows stuck in the hand is great while you develop your mana/hand. For reference. Ive won a game where I seized my opp's hand and saw 3x Plow, Purge,+EE. I took the EE and slammed a choke and easily won. Enchantments are so key to winning. As long as Miracles cannot run away with JTMS, they can cantrip all they want.

[Alfy]

(I notice I made a mistake on my previous post: obviously, I board OUT a Wasteland and IN a Needle. I also notice you have a Maze in your list: I missed that and I must have a mistake in my MTGO version, I’d have boarded that out otherwise)

There a lot I’d normally want to argue with your post, but obviously it’d be dumb considering I’m coming for advice. It just never occurred to me to remove half of my win conditions, however much I’m aware of Surgical, and a third of my tutors. You basically board in stuff I’d usually consider against combo (Surgical, Duress), and go for the long game, while I considered the longer the grind went, the poorer things went for Depths. The only thing I would say is that you leave little to deal with Karakas, but then I guess either you end up getting GQ or the remaining Wasteland, or you win with an alternate wincon.

Thanks a bunch for taking the time, I’d definitely give the SB plan a try (and obviously try to play accordingly).

[lobster4111]

Solnox, the Miracles SB advice is very useful, thanks!

I can't find a recent sideboarding guide. If you get a chance, could you give me a basic in/out for Delver and Grixis Control? These are by far the most prevalent decks in my meta.

[solnox]

Miracles has way too many easy ways to deal with lage. You are trying to overload them on multiple ways. Plows are no longer end all be all. Duress/surgical gives info which is very important for the MU. Karakas is not common in miracles. if they do have it. the GQ is good enough. If you can prevent jtms from taking over. you can definitely play the long game. cantrips dont put them up on cards. Jace and AK do.

[Mr. Safety]

Miracles is one of the reasons i play Cabal Therapy. The flashback can really open up windows to get your key spells to resolve (library, choke, tutors) and protect lage from swords.

[solnox]

On the Contrary. I believe miracles is a reason why you SHOULDNT play cabal therapy. You cannot afford to miss in the early turns. Their mix of removal from EE, CJ, Purge Etc paired with Brainstorm makes therapy a risky proposition. missing twice where you should have hit at least one spell is backbreaking. Even if they brainstorm in response to duress/etc, you still get something.

[adrieng]

On the Contrary. I believe miracles is a reason why you SHOULDNT play cabal therapy. You cannot afford to miss in the early turns. Their mix of removal from EE, CJ, Purge Etc paired with Brainstorm makes therapy a risky proposition. missing twice where you should have hit at least one spell is backbreaking. Even if they brainstorm in response to duress/etc, you still get something.
did you test khalni garden main *3 at least ? with cabal therapy it is awesome also it protects from edict. I am fine with my list right now, went 3-1-1 in last tornament 2-0 grixis control 1-2 dragon stompy 2-1 UWR delver with maindeck path 2-0 grixis control then id to top8 and lost to infect 1-2 missplayed +bad luck he had a needle on g3 on stage and couldn't find a vampire or lib or decay while seeing more than 25 cards.

On the contrary for those playing with confidant I don't think it is good it takes all the removals from opponents which are usually dead cards against us, push, bolt, command ... Looking at the top decks miracle/grixis/shadow all these cards would be dead other way


// 60 Maindeck
// 7 Artifact
4 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle

// 4 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage

// 4 Enchantment
4 Sylvan Library

// 4 Instant
4 Crop Rotation

// 27 Land
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Maze of Ith
3 Khalni Garden
4 Llanowar Wastes

// 14 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Duress


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Creature
SB: 3 Sylvan Safekeeper

// 9 Instant
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog

// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge

[Mr. Safety]

Their mix of removal from EE, CJ, Purge Etc paired with Brainstorm makes therapy a risky proposition. missing twice where you should have hit at least one spell is backbreaking. Even if they brainstorm in response to duress/etc, you still get something.

I have built my list to take full advantage of Therapy. GSZ + Dryad Arbor maindeck, 3 extra creatures (Confidants.) I am also very comfortable with blind naming with Therapy (a rollover from playing a ton of Nic Fit.) I name what I lose to and get to see their hand; if they have something else I can't beat that's where Verdant/GSZ finds Arbor to flash it back. It doesn't make the matchup any worse, at the least it's on-par with Duress. If I had a choice of having 2 Thoughtseize or Thoughtseize/Therapy in hand I would take Therapy any day of the week. Having multiple discard spells happens quite a bit and Therapy rewards that. Why do I fear Engineered Explosives or Council's Judgment? Not really relevant in most cases. Much more likely to face Jace/Terminus/StP. Those are the cards I look for g1. Purge is a new monster out of the board against Depths for sure.

Against miracles a t1 Therapy I blind-name:

G1 On the play (blind matchup): Brainstorm
G2 on the play: Swords to Plowshares
G1/G2 on the draw: Swords to Plowshares (if I recognize them correctly, t1 blue fetch could be a lot of decks.)

TL;DR - My experience with Therapy has been overwhelmingly positive, I feel pretty comfortable blind-naming and the upside of doubling up with multiple discards/Arbor can provide a window to get there.


On the contrary for those playing with confidant I don't think it is good it takes all the removals from opponents which are usually dead cards against us, push, bolt, command ... Looking at the top decks miracle/grixis/shadow all these cards would be dead other way

Confidant has been one of the *best* cards in my list for quite some time. It helps significantly in the D&T and Miracles matchups and doesn't hurt against the good matchups. Delver decks can pretend that bolting Confidant is progressing their game; for me a bolt in hand means another card isn't there. Yes it turns on low-level removal, so what? Ye olde 'it doth perish to removal good chap' argument is bullshit.

[solnox]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/612794#online

Yes I have. I had probe and even then I hated therapy and Khalni garden. Drawing the 1 of Bog and steppe are already bad enough and adding more CITP lands is an easy way to get yourself run over by other combo decks. Edicts are not a problem when you have safekeeper, bobs, blossom, discard.

Looking at your list, EE +CJ is good at removing needles+Library+bobs (without burning plows).

Confidant vs Miracles is remove or lose. A confidant that eats a plow is one less plow for Marit Lage and a plow that can be surgicaled later.

An unchecked confidant +safekeeper is basically GG for them if they cannot find terminus or a way to get on board like mentor.

[adrieng]

confidant is better than map (it bascially takes this spot) against miracle and death and taxes but it is worse against fast decks like tempo decks, eldrazi, grixis control and not playing needle but wasteland is bad against them either.
These matchups become way worse. All the fast tempo/agro decks become more complicated.

[solnox]

Just hit the 9th 5-0 of the season with my build.

Beat C/G Post, Miracles, UW Legendblade (Joe Lossett), Junk (bob,plow,lili,wasteland,karakas), and Zombardment (so many lingering souls)

Surprisingly Zombardment was the hardest matchup here.

[Alfy]

confidant is better than map (it bascially takes this spot) against miracle and death and taxes but it is worse against fast decks like tempo decks, eldrazi, grixis control and not playing needle but wasteland is bad against them either.
These matchups become way worse. All the fast tempo/agro decks become more complicated.

I'm not sure I'd say "complicated" rather than plain more "difficult". They're either fast enough and there's little you can do, or they're not and there's little they can do, but they have a bad tendency to be fast enough. I sure have found myself in a situation where I had found all the cards I needed but was missing a turn when facing a flipped Delver and a Wasteland... I have learned to mulligan better against these decks, and thankfully, some of these players still think they have time to tap their Wastland for a Goyf turn 2. :tongue:

[Mr. Safety]

I'm not sure I'd say "complicated" rather than plain more "difficult". They're either fast enough and there's little you can do, or they're not and there's little they can do, but they have a bad tendency to be fast enough. I sure have found myself in a situation where I had found all the cards I needed but was missing a turn when facing a flipped Delver and a Wasteland... I have learned to mulligan better against these decks, and thankfully, some of these players still think they have time to tap their Wastland for a Goyf turn 2. :tongue:

Are you still playing Needles maindeck? I have seen a fairly big shift from using Needles to using Wastelands in the Mox Diamond lists. The Delver decks lean on Wasteland hard in the Depths matchup because you can just make land drops and combo them without playing a spell. Add in Needles and discard and it becomes very hard to fight a 20/20 flyer. Taking Needles out of the mix significantly changes the matchup from favorable to even, at least from what I can observe (I won't drop Needles, not unless someone makes a very compelling case.) Playing your own Wastelands is much more hit/miss in the format right now than Needle. Almost every deck has something Needle can name, not every deck is susceptible to Wasteland. As an answer to problematic lands (Karakas, Wasteland) Needle is far and away superior because its a permanent effect that doesn't cost you a land drop (in a lands-based combo deck.......) I can see the reasoning to become better against some decks, but giving up percentages against one of the better matchups (Delver) doesn't seem smart to me.

[solnox]

using your land drop to fight wasteland is fine and your gameplan is much more fair anyways. Delver no longer has DRS which makes deploying threats, cantrips and holding up wasteland a lot harder. The land drop is uncounterable anyways and you can board in needles.

[malekith]

Good news!

A Dark Depths list doing 1st position in a very big (more than 300 players) tournament.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=20654&f=LE

[adrieng]

Did anyone tested winter orb i side ? He seems to be playing two of them for which matchups ? control I guess ?

[Mr. Safety]

Did anyone tested winter orb i side ? He seems to be playing two of them for which matchups ? control I guess ?

It seems like a 'gotcha' card, just like Choke, but not as good. It has synergy with Mox Diamond, which is pretty cool. I can't picture the right situation where it would be better than Choke, maybe against Lands?

[Alfy]

using your land drop to fight wasteland is fine and your gameplan is much more fair anyways. Delver no longer has DRS which makes deploying threats, cantrips and holding up wasteland a lot harder. The land drop is uncounterable anyways and you can board in needles.

There's a big loss of tempo, though. Needle can come in any turn; fighting Wasteland with Wasteland not only takes a turn longer, it forces you to spend more time with colourless mana on board and forces your sequencing. The plan also gets considerably worst when having to fight more than one Wasteland. Of course, I'll admit it's also a dead card when not facing Wasteland, but considering the card is the main source of hate out there...

I'm still on your list, waiting to meet Miracles to try out the sideboarding matrix you described, and in the meanwhile, I have to say I have found the tempo/Wasteland matchups fairly rough.

[malekith]

DAICHI AKIMOTO’S GOLGARI DEPTHS
GRAND PRIX SHIZUOKA 2018 (LEGACY) - 14TH


DECKLIST
Creature (9)
4 Vampire Hexmage
3 Dark Confidant
2 Sylvan Safekeeper
Sorcery (13)
2 Life from the Loam
2 Sylvan Scrying
2 Duress
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
Instant (8)
1 Assassin's Trophy
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Crop Rotation
Artifact (3)
3 Mox Diamond
Enchantment (2)
2 Sylvan Library
Land (25)
1 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Bayou
3 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
60 Cards
Sideboard (15)
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Dread of Night
1 Engineered Plague
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Rancor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Karakas
2 Choke
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Steely Resolve
2 Bitterblossom

(from 9th to 16th decklists
Top 8 decklists are still not available)

Enviado desde mi WAS-LX1A mediante Tapatalk

[Mr. Safety]

I think we really need to discuss the elephant in the room: is Mox Diamond now the correct mana acceleration in Turbo Depths? The only lists placing well lately are on the Diamond plan, with most lists playing maindeck removal like Abrupt Decay, Assassin's Trophy, or both. Pithing Needle has really fallen off the radar screen as well, possibly due to the lower number of decks using Wasteland.

[DNSolver]

Sharing here because I can't let the Mox Diamond players win:

Got a 5-0 last night with this. Beat Miracles, Burn, Bug Delver x2, BR Reanimator, all favorable matchups.

4 Depths
4 Stage
3 Urborg
4 Verdant
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Ghost Quarter

4 Lotus Petal
3 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Pithing Needle
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress

4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Expedition Map

1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Vampire Hexmage
2 Green Sun's Zenith

SB:
3 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Rite of Consumption
1 Boseiju
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Karakas

[Mr. Safety]

Sharing here because I can't let the Mox Diamond players win:

Got a 5-0 last night with this. Beat Miracles, Burn, Bug Delver x2, BR Reanimator, all favorable matchups.

4 Depths
4 Stage
3 Urborg
4 Verdant
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Ghost Quarter

4 Lotus Petal
3 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Pithing Needle
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress

4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Expedition Map

1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Vampire Hexmage
2 Green Sun's Zenith

SB:
3 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Rite of Consumption
1 Boseiju
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Karakas

Nice! Glad to see someone still doing well without Mox Diamond; I can't afford them and I only play paper. I'm digging the GSZ package, I've been on that for a little while. Have you considered diversifying your discard to include Cabal Therapy? I suppose at the LGS where I'm familiar with the metagame/decks it makes more sense, but I'd argue for it in an open metagame as well.

What are you solving with Flusterstorm? Is it worth the blue splash? Also, zero basics?

[dd_bray]

Sharing here because I can't let the Mox Diamond players win:

Got a 5-0 last night with this. Beat Miracles, Burn, Bug Delver x2, BR Reanimator, all favorable matchups.

4 Depths
4 Stage
3 Urborg
4 Verdant
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Ghost Quarter

4 Lotus Petal
3 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Pithing Needle
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress

4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Expedition Map

1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Vampire Hexmage
2 Green Sun's Zenith

SB:
3 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Rite of Consumption
1 Boseiju
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Karakas

Congratulations! Your list is sweet! I like the GSZ plan without trying to make it a silver bullet SB package; how long have you been trying it for?
I've been playing Turbo Depths for years but have lately been struggling with the Miracles match-up way more than I feel like I used to. Can you give your SB/ gameplay strategy for winning the match-up in today's MG for those of us who still fight the good fight w/out Mox Diamond.

[Izza]

I rly dont like the MOX/BoB lists, because I fell in love with the raw turbo list.
SO my question is, why the bluesplit for FS with the "weaker" manabase(No Basic)? I can't think of much that a duress/tought/IoK can't handle. Is it purely for combo?
I'm very interested and digging the GSZ build, I acually had the split the other way around.(2x Safekeeper and 1xGSZ) Mainly because I lack a second GSZ.

Edit:
My SB plan would look like this:
Surgical, Karakas, Safekeeper, Decay and Trophy should be obvious.
Rite is for Miracles/D&T/Mirror and everything with swords or sacoutlet? When Rite comes in, Boseiju follows?
And FS is for Combo(Storm/Reanimator/?dredge?) and to fight StP?

[DNSolver]

@Mr. Safety
Therapy isn't good without Probe.

Zero basics is the biggest problem with this version. If you want to fix this, you cut 2 sideboard cards, put the two blue lands in the board, and put the basics back. You could maybe get by with 1 basic because that would let you GQ yourself as well as copy a basic with Stage.

@dd_bray
Miracles has a hard time beating a Safekeeper if you play it late and don't attack it into Snapcaster Mage. I typically board out fast mana and shave Needles. Board in Decays/Trophy for Blood Moon/B2B. After those, I add another Safekeeper because I have it in the board. Then, at the moment I have 3 Rite + Boseiju so those come in. If you don't have those, board in Sylvan Library / Bob. I also boarded in Flusters.

@Izza
Fluster is an anti-combo card that hits both Storm and Show and Tell (we can already answer Sneak Attack with Needle). There aren't very many other cards to play besides additional discard. You could play that instead if you choose. However, Fluster is also nice for countering Plow when they tap low for Jace / SFM.

If you play Rite, you want them for Miracles, D+T, Lands, 4c Loam at least. They also give you some extra outs to Ensnaring Bridge vs Red Stompy and some other decks. You can beat Edict effects pretty easily out of the blue/black/whatever decks because they are byes, so don't bring them in here.

[umadbroflame]

Hey there,
I just registered just for this thread:cool:
I play Legacy for 6 month now, playing Turbo Depths (with Blooming Marsh) and DnT. I collected some storecredit at my LGS and am thinking now if I should upgrade my Turbo Depths List with Fetches and Bayous.
Just for playing the turbo variant of Depths, what are the advantages over the Blooming Marsh build? Do you guys recommend the upgrade?

Thx in advance!

[Mr. Safety]

Hey there,
I just registered just for this thread:cool:
I play Legacy for 6 month now, playing Turbo Depths (with Blooming Marsh) and DnT. I collected some storecredit at my LGS and am thinking now if I should upgrade my Turbo Depths List with Fetches and Bayous.
Just for playing the turbo variant of Depths, what are the advantages over the Blooming Marsh build? Do you guys recommend the upgrade?

Thx in advance!

Yes, and the fetches are more important than the Bayous, for a few specific reasons:
1) Verdant Catacombs can find your basics
2) Once you have the Verdant + even 1 Bayou your mana gets significantly more reliable
3) Verdant Catacombs can fetch Dryad Arbor to play around Edict effects
4) Fetches provide free shuffle effects for Sylvan Library

This is my mana base FYI, and it's been rock-solid:

4x Verdant Catcombs
1x Bayou
2x Blooming Marsh
1x Forest
1x Swamp
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian's Stage


The arbor maindeck is because I use GSZ, and I'm on 4x ESG/Petal as well.

[solnox]

On a light blue splash.

https://imgur.com/a/AykLYuo

I had been messing with a light U splash for flusterstorm for a while now. I 5-0'd a few weeks ago that didnt get published but I just managed to get another one with this list

Beat Black Red Reanimator, Grixis Delver, Shadow, Strawberry Shortcake (R/W Painter had moon), Moon Stompy in the final round.

U was good vs shadow and B/R here. Being able to flusterstorm a hymn to tourach was excellent. I also got to unmoored ego painters from the shortcake deck.

[jubeininja69]

I think we really need to discuss the elephant in the room: is Mox Diamond now the correct mana acceleration in Turbo Depths? The only lists placing well lately are on the Diamond plan, with most lists playing maindeck removal like Abrupt Decay, Assassin's Trophy, or both. Pithing Needle has really fallen off the radar screen as well, possibly due to the lower number of decks using Wasteland.

i think so. turbo depths has now become grindy/slow/medium depths and diamonds helps the deck catch up in tempo.

i never really liked the all-in turbo version. if you didn't kill them in the first 3-5 turns your win % serverly goes down each turn after that.

[Darkgobs]

I think we really need to discuss the elephant in the room: is Mox Diamond now the correct mana acceleration in Turbo Depths? The only lists placing well lately are on the Diamond plan, with most lists playing maindeck removal like Abrupt Decay, Assassin's Trophy, or both. Pithing Needle has really fallen off the radar screen as well, possibly due to the lower number of decks using Wasteland.

I think the paradigm is not completely exposed here, because of the correlation between needle, wasteland and mox:


1) If you choose to play a list with Mox, is it safe to say that you'd better play Wasteland over Needle, because you need thoses extra lands for the discards Mox Diamonds require? That is what I felt while playing the "Mox list". So as far as I understand the dilemma, I would say that if you want to play Mox Diamond, you cannot play 3 Needle, because you need a list with more lands, aka 2-3 Wastelands.

So now the question is: is this assumption wrong? Could a list with Mox AND Needle be viable, or is it too greedy? I'd like it to work, because even though I think the Mox list is amazing, I'm missing thoses Needles sometimes. Maybe something like 3 Mox and 2 Needles might be viable, I don't know yet.


2) this is a central question indeed: are the win% that we win against Miracle, D&T and Lands, etc (with a "mox-wasteland list"), worth the win% that we loose against the others decks, especially Delver decks (with the instant mana sources - Needle list)?

And the answer might simply be: it's a meta-call. If you play with more Miracles/D&T, then go for a "Mox list", If not, well, go for the "IMS-Needle list".
Which brings up two questions:
a) if you don't know the metagame, which list is the safest pick?
b) as I said in 1), is a "middle-list" possible, and if yes, would it be more efficient than the 2 others lists, or than one of the 2 others lists?


I know theses are a lot of questions for one post, but I'd be reaaallly interested to know what you guys think about this! =)

[Mr. Safety]

I've already answered what my approach is: maindeck confidant in the place of additional land tutors (expedition map.) Sideboard cards allow the deck to go from fast combo into grind teritory with additional removal, draw, and hate cards.

Regarding Diamonds, yes, you play your own wastelands to get land count higher and drop needles because its primary role is to name wasteland. My big beef with this approach is that it seems worse than RG lands. The difference is discard, which gives you a different angle (along with redundancy with hexmage for the black splash.) The discard makes you better against other combo decks and is big against blue-based tempo decks.

[Negator77']

I think the paradigm is not completely exposed here, because of the correlation between needle, wasteland and mox:


1) If you choose to play a list with Mox, is it safe to say that you'd better play Wasteland over Needle, because you need thoses extra lands for the discards Mox Diamonds require? That is what I felt while playing the "Mox list". So as far as I understand the dilemma, I would say that if you want to play Mox Diamond, you cannot play 3 Needle, because you need a list with more lands, aka 2-3 Wastelands.

So now the question is: is this assumption wrong? Could a list with Mox AND Needle be viable, or is it too greedy? I'd like it to work, because even though I think the Mox list is amazing, I'm missing thoses Needles sometimes. Maybe something like 3 Mox and 2 Needles might be viable, I don't know yet.




This assumption is wrong imo. I've been doing well with a 4 mox + 28 land list (to support Diamond and the U splash) with 2 needles main and 2 more in the SB for a long time. Just picked up 5-0's #10 & 11 this week since the mtgo league started at the end of September.

[Darkgobs]

This assumption is wrong imo. I've been doing well with a 4 mox + 28 land list (to support Diamond and the U splash) with 2 needles main and 2 more in the SB for a long time. Just picked up 5-0's #10 & 11 this week since the mtgo league started at the end of September.

This is true indeed. But you're also playing only 1 Wasteland in your 75, so there isn't much wombo with Needle (very often naming wasteland) and one-of wasteland.

But indeed, your list includes Moxes AND 4 Needle in the 75, even though I think you are quite an exception. ;-)

[dd_bray]

Shout out and congratulations to both Sharkcaster_Mage and Griselpuff for top 8 finishes in today's legacy challenge!

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2018-12-10

With one decklist being the traditional Turbo build and the other the Mox/Wasteland adaptation, it seems like a good time be beating down with 20/20's regardless of the build.

[Mr. Safety]

Shout out and congratulations to both Sharkcaster_Mage and Griselpuff for top 8 finishes in today's legacy challenge!

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2018-12-10

With one decklist being the traditional Turbo build and the other the Mox/Wasteland adaptation, it seems like a good time be beating down with 20/20's regardless of the build.

I saw that as well, pretty cool.

[Darkgobs]

On a light blue splash.

https://imgur.com/a/AykLYuo

I had been messing with a light U splash for flusterstorm for a while now.
[...]
U was good vs shadow and B/R here. Being able to flusterstorm a hymn to tourach was excellent. [...]

Could you please tell us in which other match-up do you board Flusterstom in? And in particular, what do you usually cut for it? I guess Miracle, Combos... what about Delver?

[Mr. Safety]

I am hopefully getting to FNM this week after missing the 1K 12/1. I still want to jam Depths and see if Therapy can do what I want it to do. I have also changed my setup slightly to include maindeck Abrupt Decay x2, a nod to the changing metagame that includes an uncomfortable amount of Ensnaring Bridges. I have cut 1x Elvish Spirit Guide and 1x Cabal Therapy to squeeze them in. That puts my discard at 3 TS/2 CT/2 Duress and my fast mana at 4 Petal/3 ESG. I also have maindeck GSZ x1 + Dryad Arbor, so I already have an additional green source to support the AD's. The 2 copies of Decay in the board are being replaced with Hymns for now, until I can get a feel for what else might be good. A 4th needle, 2nd Ghost Quarter, and 3rd Choke are on the short list as well.

EDIT: Bah, I'll just drop in a list.

4x Vampire Hexmage
3x Dark Confidant
3x Elvish Spirit Guide
2x Sylvan Safekeeper

3x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
2x Cabal Therapy
3x Pithing Needle
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Crop Rotation
3x Sylvan Scrying
4x Lotus Petal

4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Bayou
2x Blooming Marsh
1x Forest
1x Swamp
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian's Stage

Sideboard
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Choke
2x Sylvan Library
2x Rite of Consumption
1x Karakas
1x Marsh Casualties
1x Golgari Charm
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Hymn to Tourach

[Hanni]

I'm not sure if this has already been discussed recently, but is there any reason for playing Abrupt Decay over Assassin's Trophy in the turbo lists? I can understand maybe not wanting the card disadvantage in the gindier Slow Depths lists, but Assassin's Trophy just seems way better for the fast versions.

Uncounterability isn't irrelevant, but most of the problems are in decks without countermagic anyway. Having more ways to deal with problems like Karakas and Maze of Ith seems like it would be way more valuable...

[Mr. Safety]

It's certainly an option. DNSolver streamed with A-trophy recently, I think 1 in the main 1 in the side. It's not clear yet if it's correct to play Assassin's Trophy to deal with Karakas/Maze because we already have Ghost Quarter and tutors for it. Having additional ways to kill problematic lands seems good, and it seems to really do that job in the Lands matchup (so far in my limited opinion, I haven't tested it yet.) We've theory-crafted the crap out of it here, probably a couple pages back when A-Trophy was spoiled. Not many have piped in on actual effectiveness, at least not that I've seen. I haven't bitten the bullet for Trophy's yet, I'm still leaning on Pithing Needle, Decay, and Ghost Quarter.

[Baum]

We usually run a split. The stock slow lists have 3 Decays in the MD and 1-2 Trophy in the SB, Negator's BUG list has 2/2 in the SB. Sometimes, the uncounterability really is important. Also, while it's great to hit lands like Karakas or Wasteland, giving D&T another Plains to cast STP can be a liability at times. That being said, it doesn't sound unreasonable to play more Trophys than Decays.

[solnox]

Decay is so good at stemming early aggression from decks like Delver where they're forced to find another clock instead of holding up mana. Uncounterably killing shit like Blossom. Delver pyromancer is so good.

[Mr. Safety]

Decay is much more relevant in the Miracles matchup as well, due to it being able to handle Monastery Mentor. It doesn't win you the game but easily adds several turns to find a solution. Mentor along with cantrips can create lethal out of nowhere, sometimes in one turn. Brainstorm is the only instant-speed cantrip so in response to Ponder, Portent, or Preordain Decay is still a reasonable solution. Don't get me wrong, A-trophy is a great card and fits into this puzzle somewhere, but I don't think it's a replacement for Decay, rather a supplement to it.

[Listlik]

Is slow version of depths playable without playset of mox diamonds?

[ComplexPants]

Is slow version of depths playable without playset of mox diamonds?

Not really. I have played a version with 3, but you really need the recurrent mana source to justify bob and a grindier build in general. Petal is very good, but it has to be used to create a lot of advantage quickly, which is why you see it in explosive combo decks like ANT, Reanimator, turbo depths, etc.

[Mr. Safety]

I played Friday and went 3-1, felt incredible all night. I have some changes I want to test, but nothing huge. I ended up playing 2x Collective Brutality in the sideboard instead of Hymn, for castability reasons. I love its flexibility but I didn't escalate it even once, I just couldn't afford to lose any cards in hand. Maindeck Decay was 100% correct, I noticed a big difference in the matchups I faced. Speaking of matchups I played against: UW Chalice pile (not even sure what to call it...), Aggro Loam, Goblins, and BW Tokens brew (Depths, Souls, Chalice, Hymn, Thalia 2.0) My only loss was to Aggro Loam, and that due to a top-decked Karakas in g1. I was playing around Liliana and Wasteland, my needle on Waste getting Decay-ed a turn before. I squeeked out g2 on the back of Rite of Consumption, lost g3 to absurd value town (Liliana, Dark Confidant, Knight fetching up nuclear bombs.) Goblins was a fairly easy matchup, although I did lose g2 to variance. G3 the guy played Skirk Prospector into Goblin Matron into Stingscourger to bounce my token, but I still get there by combo-ing again 2 turns later. Redundancy is pretty hot in Turbo Depths.

So the changes I think I'll make are -1 GSZ (it was dead more than once) and getting the 8th discard back in (likely Thoughtsieze #4.) The Brutalities need a little more testing, and I want to experiment with a 2nd Ghost Quarter/4th Needle there as well. Basically 2 slots are flexible in the sideboard, maindeck is settled for me ATM.

[Hanni]

I think the removal discussion is interesting. I would agree Decay is far superior against Miracles. It's a better answer to Counterbalance and Mentor because of the uncounterability, and it doesn't give them a free land.

Against Delver decks, though, despite being counterable, Assassin's Trophy can hit Gurmag Angler, so Abrupt Decay isn't necessarily better.

I will keep an eye on this thread and future lists to see how the removal split shakes out.

[Mr. Safety]

I think the removal discussion is interesting. I would agree Decay is far superior against Miracles. It's a better answer to Counterbalance and Mentor because of the uncounterability, and it doesn't give them a free land.

Against Delver decks, though, despite being counterable, Assassin's Trophy can hit Gurmag Angler, so Abrupt Decay isn't necessarily better.

I will keep an eye on this thread and future lists to see how the removal split shakes out.

Don't forget that Diabolic Edict is a card either. Marsh Casualties, Golgari Charm, and Lili Last Hope all deal with Peezy and friends, Decay is reasonable for Delvers, and Edicts can be very useful for Sneak/Show, Reanimator, and Depths mirrors.

[adrieng]

i have got a 5-0 on mtgo here : https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-bg-64945#paper had also a 3-2 and 4-1
can't remember what i beat but it was good decks.
though I dont have all the cards I want on mtgo especially mindbreak trap toxic deluge and surgical
I went 4-1 last week end on paper lost to moon stompy 1-2 beat human 2-1 grixis control 2-0 death and taxes 2-1 and burn 2-0.

I suggest you give more credit to khalni garden +therapy and 4 off library instead of confidant



// 60 Maindeck
// 7 Artifact
4 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle

// 4 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage

// 4 Enchantment
4 Sylvan Library

// 4 Instant
4 Crop Rotation

// 27 Land
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Maze of Ith
3 Khalni Garden
4 Llanowar Wastes

// 14 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sylvan Scrying
2 Duress


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Creature
SB: 3 Sylvan Safekeeper

// 9 Instant
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog

// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge

[Mr. Safety]

I like Khalni Garden, but I in no way can afford to play 3-4 copies to feed 4x Therapy. I want Verdant Catacombs to grab Arbor at instant speed so I don't have to rely on land tutors to get Khalni Garden. It's a legitimate strategy (obviously you do well with it) but I am not cutting Confidants, no way. My experience has been overwhelmingly positive with Confidants maindeck.

I do like the Maze of Ith inclusion, that could be a possibility for the GSZ slot.

[adrieng]

you want to cut the petal for garden. There is no need of acceleration in this deck, format is slow. the thing is more discard is better than more acceleration so with therapy you have double discard
and playing around edict is easier . I am 8-0 right now against grixis control in tornament.

I also cut one needle for 2nd maze and never went back

Against miracle g1 library is better than safekeeper cause it protects the token +20 life when sworded and you are not afraid of surgical g1 ; against others decks except death and taxes maybe it is better than safekeeper it is not a dead card.
As for myself I prefer having the safekeepers in side, it is other ways a dead card in many matchups, all tempo deck/combo decks especially. there is no reason to play safekeeper instead of lib maindeck except maybe confidant.

[Jax-]

You can play w/e you want right now and do well because the deck is so strong in the current meta.

[solnox]

@adrieng. It would be nice if you could tell us the matchups you run into for your leagues. My typical leagues are filled with decks that will wreck you if you drop a beat (Sneak, Storm variants, Reanimator). 4 Library without fetchlands is strange. With a fetch mana base, you get to play around moon, have access to arbor and get shuffles.

Not having bog mainboard on mtgo is a mistake imo. There are too many Reanimator, ANT, dredge decks and it has good applications vs AK Miracles and other snapcaster decks.

[Mr. Safety]

@adrieng. It would be nice if you could tell us the matchups you run into for your leagues. My typical leagues are filled with decks that will wreck you if you drop a beat (Sneak, Storm variants, Reanimator). 4 Library without fetchlands is strange. With a fetch mana base, you get to play around moon, have access to arbor and get shuffles.

Not having bog mainboard on mtgo is a mistake imo. There are too many Reanimator, ANT, dredge decks and it has good applications vs AK Miracles and other snapcaster decks.

I don't think I would ever play this without a maindeck Bog. I missed the fact that he was playing 4 Libraries along side zero fetchlands; I'm not criticizing, he's obviously done well, but it's counter-intuitive. In defense of the list he's still playing a full set of Maps, which most other lists have dropped altogether. That's at least 4 extra shuffle effects with Library. It also plays around Moon, but without maindeck removal he's counting on discard heavily to avoid losing to Blood Moon .

[adrieng]

In the league if I can remember I have beaten storm (which is a better matchup with cabal therapy and 10 discards main), death and taxes, grixis control, enchantress twice (which is a hard matchup cause elephant grass is hard to beat),
i lost to moon stompy twice, beat miracle, eldrazi twice (post and aggro) with karakas, beat burn, lost to sliver (their clock his huge they have flying creatures and karakas), beat humans with karakas, beat UB tempo with bitterblossom, beat grixis control, lost to UB reanimator bad luck here he was on the play other way would have won, beat UB shadow can't remember others decks I played.

I don't think there is a reason to play bog maindeck, maze is ten time better. You said that you would miss bog main but looking at the matchups you faced :
UW Chalice pile (not even sure what to call it...), Aggro Loam, Goblins, and BW Tokens

bog is dead here except maybe for aggro loam while maze is good versus loam, goblin and maybe token


I have 12 shuffle effects 4 crop+4 map+4 scrying so library works well with them. I don't like decay main, I have tested them and I prefer more tutors. What do you want to decay G1 ? a creature go for maze, a strix go for sejirii, b2b ok fine but it is just one matchup chalice you have vampire for them after side it is good for needles, kotr b2b etc...

Yeah my manabase is not perfect I would play 4 verdant catacomb + 4 bayou if had them cause submegre doesn't see any play. I don't like basics though it weakens too much the mana base consistency, and you will still lose to moon stompy.

I think more tutor is better than decay g1.

[Mr. Safety]

bog is dead here except maybe for aggro loam while maze is good versus loam, goblin and maybe token

Being 'good' and being 'necessary' are 2 completely different things. When it comes to Bojuka Bog and it's ability to steal g1's against fast graveyard decks it is absolutely necessary. Maze is good, don't get me wrong, but it isn't an either/or situation. I didn't need Maze in any of those matchups that I won and Maze against Loam might have been ok, but I essentially lost to a lucky top-deck and Wasteland activations after my Needle got Decay-ed. Maze would likely not have changed the situation, given he had the Loam/Wasteland engine online. Might have taken an extra turn to beat me, but whatever. Bog on the other hand, if I had drawn it or had access to it from Crop Rotation, could have given me at least 3 extra turns to find a path to winning. Again, not saying Maze is bad, or even that I won't try it. I just feel that Bog has more than justified itself through many situations, to the point that I will never sleeve Depths without it. Legacy is too wide open and the opportunity cost is minimal for Bog.

Honestly, Maze makes a ton more sense in the Mox Diamond lists. It's an extra land to pitch to Diamond build synergy with Loam, simply because you need more lands at the expense of other spells.


I don't think there is a reason to play bog maindeck, maze is ten time better.

I think this is a stretch. If we're talking about relevancy in the meta-game I think Bog wins that comparison hands-down. I suppose that with Depths getting so popular the Mirror match is a consideration, but sideboard Karakas is quite a bit better at attacking a broader list of decks. Against Emrakul for instance, Karakas is lights out. Maze doesn't stop annihilator. A better comparison would be Karakas vs Maze of Ith, and if Karakas isn't worth maindeck slots (outside of Diamond/Loam synergy) then Maze isn't worth maindeck slots. Call me crazy, but that makes sense to me when following trends.

[adrieng]

maze of ith is good agaisnt every creaturish decks, eldrazi, death and taxes, delver.decks, grixis control, stoneblade.decks, goblin, reanimator might be ok, humans, infect...
karakas is good against what ? reanimator, mirror and show and tell maybe that's 15% of the meta versus 65% of the meta and here it is not game winning against rea and show tell
it is often too late when you have it except show tell>emrakul other way they might have omni grisel draw=>win, sneak and if you have needle griselbrand maze does the same thing
so it is really good only in the mirror

Bog is good versus reanimator, storm (here it is really not ideal you have no clock so they shld go for ad nauseam with 20 life or be sure you don't have the crop), dredge and land i won't enter it against miracle 15% of the meta
Maze force opponent to waste it if you don't have the needle to have a clock ; other way they are locked.

so really there is no match 65% of the meta versus 15%

[Mr. Safety]

Solid points. I guess I'm really looking at how it affects matchups that are unfavored or even, not matchups that are already favored. Helping a matchup that is already favored isn't a good argument for me to change my deck. Helping with unfavorable matchups, without compromising my favorable ones, is a great argument for changing my deck. I'm not seeing that. I think you're also downplaying the importance of Karakas as well; it's incredibly impactful against the right matchups. I don't know anyone besides you that foregoes Karakas somewhere in the 75. It isn't good against D&T...but Maze of Ith isn't winning you that matchup either.

Almost all of the other matchups that you mention Maze of Ith helps against we don't need help with. Grixis control brings in Edicts, has Strix for blockers, and Jace. We play Dryad Arbors (you have Khalni tokens), Sejiri Steppe to get past blockers, and Rite of Consumption to get around Jace (or just needle the fucker.) Bog can hold off Gurmags if we are slow to combo. Non-red stompy variants have Chalice, which is a bummer but that's why we play Abrupt Decay/Assassin's Trophy/Krosan Grip alongside a combo that doesn't need to spells to win, or we can use Sylvan Scrying/Dark Confidant/Sylvan Library to draw into the combo. Blood Moon is a pain, but Maze of Ith does literally nothing to help that matchup. Stoneblade's True Names gets past Maze no problem, and again we have Sejiri Steppe to get past Souls tokens if they play them. Same situation with jace, play around it with Rite, combo at end of turn, or needle it. Delver decks are historically favored for us, especially RUG delver. They have no way to deal with a 20/20, all we have to do is find a way to resolve the 20/20. With 8 discards, needles for Wastes, Bog to shut off Goyfs/Geese/Gurmags, and we have ways of playing around Edicts. Abrupt Decay kills delvers/young pyromancers. Maze does work, but isn't worth cutting other spells to weaken the deck.

I understand that creature-ish decks (the ones you mentioned) can get in under our combo and beat us if we don't assemble the combo, or if they stall us long enough to beat down. It happens, variance is a thing. But I'm not worried about Eldrazi Stompy when I can make a 20/20 on turn 2 without casting any non-creature spells.

EDIT: The one deck you can argue for is Infect, Maze is insane against that deck, essentially a lock. I know they are playing some number of Wasteland in their deck to combat Maze against lands, but if we needle Wasteland we're all set. I wouldn't maindeck it for Infect, it's just not a common enough matchup. I might not even address it all except for Liliana Last Hope, Golgari Charm, Marsh Casualties, and Abrupt Decay. So once again, I am not adjusting my deck for that.

Some matchups we have to concede, it's the nature of a big format like Legacy. Bog helps close/unfavorable matchups, Maze only strengthens matchups that are seemingly already favored. Is Maze a good card against 65% of the format, or is Depths just a good strategy against 65% of the format?

[Darklingske]

Played a local tourney last sunday with slow depths and ended 4-3.
Won against: Esper rector 2-1, Sneak and Show 2-1, UB Delver 2-0 and UW stoneblade 2-0
Lost against: UB Shadow 1-2 (deck just decided to crap out G1, G3 mull to 5 and being hit by double discard and fast angler), Sneak and show 1-2 (T2 Grisel both games he won) and Lands 1-2 (G1 I was flooded and G3 after a mull to 5 took me 4 turns to find land nr 3 after a T2 waste from him).
How do you guys handle Sneak and show? The MU feels really favored for them and I don't know if we can really improve it.

[adrieng]

Against death and taxes the plan is to copy maze with stage or bring the second maze stall then toxic deluge the board ; that wins the match yes.
When you have 3-4 maze they need to developp lot of ressources onto the board then you deluge ftw.

Against gurmag bog is stricly worse than maze maze stalls, same thing against stoneblade a 3/1 is not a serious clock while batterskul if connects is 24+life so you need double attack which can be problematic jace bounce by example after taking 20, same thing against death and taxes you don't want them to go upper 20 cause other way you need double attack and sejiri steppe is not enough to win you against mother+ flying bloquer.

Eldrazi is not as easy as you say, you lot of time have to stall if they have karakas, wasteland others stuff... Good players don't waste aggresively your piece of combo when they don't need to

[Mr. Safety]

Against death and taxes the plan is to copy maze with stage or bring the second maze stall then toxic deluge the board ; that wins the match yes.
When you have 3-4 maze they need to developp lot of ressources onto the board then you deluge ftw.

Against gurmag bog is stricly worse than maze maze stalls, same thing against stoneblade a 3/1 is not a serious clock while batterskul if connects is 24+life so you need double attack which can be problematic jace bounce by example after taking 20, same thing against death and taxes you don't want them to go upper 20 cause other way you need double attack and sejiri steppe is not enough to win you against mother+ flying bloquer.

Eldrazi is not as easy as you say, you lot of time have to stall if they have karakas, wasteland others stuff... Good players don't waste aggresively your piece of combo when they don't need to

That's a good point about Maze forcing them to develop the board so you can wipe with Deluge. Good call. I understand Eldrazi isn't as easy as I made it sound, but I would say it's still a matchup we are at least slightly favored.

[solnox]

Bog is REALLY good vs miracles. moreso now with AK in their decks. Snapcaster is a huge reason why that deck is so good and shutting off CA and snap is worth a lost.

[Jorge Le Douche]

In my opinion, the best part about having Maze of Ith in your deck is the ability to use a random otherwise useless land search spell to completely stonewall your opponents' clock. If you have played the deck, you have had the experience of chump blocking with Safekeeper, Bob, or Hexmage while Gurmag Angler/Death's Shadow/... continues attacking. Eventually, you die. Maze of Ith buys a LOT of time in those types of situations. And don't get me started on Thespian's Staging your own Maze of Ith. With Urborg in play. Good luck to the Delver player who wants to fight through that.

Maze of Ith is strong against Delver, Eldrazi, and other aggressive decks. It either buys you lots of time or eats a Wasteland, which is fine, because they are not wasting Dark Depths.

But I have noticed that the top finishing slow-depths lists (including David Long) have cut Maze of Ith, even from the sideboard. I'm not saying that is correct, but it seems to be current fad. Perhaps even the consensus.

[Mr. Safety]

To put my opinion in one sentence: i understand there are clever ways to interact, but we're a combo deck, isn't it better to just try and kill them?

We're talking about Lands tricks to grind out games, which is fine, but i really feel that trying to go punch-for-punch like a fair deck feels like playing to not lose rather than to win. I understand the mox diamond plan is to slowly grind, but i'm on the turbo plan. Its definitely a different approach.

[ryscott85]

Does wasteland just cause this deck to autolose game ones often? I’m new to this deck and i’ve been playtesting it recently. There are an unfortunate amount of times where I have the combo of stage and Dd, but draw no heXmage and am staring at a hand of thoughtseize and do-nothing lands. Even seeing a wasteland in hand feels bad with oik and thoughtseize (I’m assuming that’s why a lot of ppl play hymn, but that seems sketchy too early in the game when they have a full hand). Looking at decklists, nearly none of the top performing ones play needle main and a lot of them play one or none in the side. Is this deck just banking on the top decks ( miricles, Grixis control, big eldrazi, ant, etc..) just not playing with them? I know that I must be missing something..

[Jax-]

You can tutor for your own wasteland/ghost quarter and force their wasteland activation and copy your depths with stage/hexmage in response.
You can copy their wasteland in their EoT with your stage and do the same if you have another stage or hexmage in hand/play.
You can name wasteland with Needle obviously.
Plenty of outs tbh.

My favorite is Stifling their wasteland tho.

[Mr. Safety]

Does wasteland just cause this deck to autolose game ones often? I’m new to this deck and i’ve been playtesting it recently. There are an unfortunate amount of times where I have the combo of stage and Dd, but draw no heXmage and am staring at a hand of thoughtseize and do-nothing lands. Even seeing a wasteland in hand feels bad with oik and thoughtseize (I’m assuming that’s why a lot of ppl play hymn, but that seems sketchy too early in the game when they have a full hand). Looking at decklists, nearly none of the top performing ones play needle main and a lot of them play one or none in the side. Is this deck just banking on the top decks ( miricles, Grixis control, big eldrazi, ant, etc..) just not playing with them? I know that I must be missing something..

Short answer: no, not even close.

The difference is Life from the Loam and playing their own Wastelands. Mox Diamond lists aggressively Wasteland opposing Wastelands so they can get it out of the way to combo. If an opponent is aggressively Waste-ing their non-basic, non-combo lands it opens up the combo or they can draw into Loam (or just tutor for combo pieces after losing them.) One of the biggest strengths of Depths, and Lands as well, is the level of redundancy. Older lists with maindeck Pithing Needle name Wasteland better than 75% of the time.

One thing that really helps you get around the common pitfalls of the deck is practice. Seriously, I've seen a steady upward trend of wins with this deck after playing it for the past 6 months as my primary Legacy deck. I'm still learning new lines of play, which is actually really refreshing for a combo deck. It's really held my attention. I'm not saying it isn't an ape-ish A +B combo deck, it is, but finding a way to play around different strategies is quite the mental exercise.

From the OP:


I consider this deck to be a very strong choice because it is very resilient to traditional combo hate like counterspells and discard. Additionally it has the speed to keep up with other combo decks, and the versatility to adapt to a changing meta. Due to the limited number of threats the deck is concerned about it can focus on eliminating those in the main deck while maintaining consistency.

[ryscott85]

Short answer: no, not even close.

The difference is Life from the Loam and playing their own Wastelands. Mox Diamond lists aggressively Wasteland opposing Wastelands so they can get it out of the way to combo. If an opponent is aggressively Waste-ing their non-basic, non-combo lands it opens up the combo or they can draw into Loam (or just tutor for combo pieces after losing them.) One of the biggest strengths of Depths, and Lands as well, is the level of redundancy. Older lists with maindeck Pithing Needle name Wasteland better than 75% of the time.

One thing that really helps you get around the common pitfalls of the deck is practice. Seriously, I've seen a steady upward trend of wins with this deck after playing it for the past 6 months as my primary Legacy deck. I'm still learning new lines of play, which is actually really refreshing for a combo deck. It's really held my attention. I'm not saying it isn't an ape-ish A +B combo deck, it is, but finding a way to play around different strategies is quite the mental exercise.

From the OP:

Maybe I’m just drawing poorly and am used to brainstorm decks/lands multiple tutors to dig me out if situations. Could you or someone explain why many top deck forego or play only 1 needle in the 75? I still don’t understand why that wouldn’t be main or at least a2-3 of in the side? Also as stated earlier, is hymn the go to over with thoughtseize over oik now since it also hits lands?

[Mr. Safety]

Maybe I’m just drawing poorly and am used to brainstorm decks/lands multiple tutors to dig me out if situations. Could you or someone explain why many top deck forego or play only 1 needle in the 75? I still don’t understand why that wouldn’t be main or at least a2-3 of in the side? Also as stated earlier, is hymn the go to over with thoughtseize over oik now since it also hits lands?

Probably the best place to start is to post your list, that way every response can be within context.

[malekith]

Two different DARK DEPTHS lists doing TOP8 at this LEGACY CHALLENGE MTGO tournament this week:

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2018-12-17

both decklists plays the combo with 4xDD and 4xThespian in the main, but...

the 8th was more or less a "classic Turbo" decklist with Petals and ESGs

the 2nd played with moxes and Bobs



In the quarterfinals both lists played one against each other. not sure if is possible to find footage or something...

[Jorge Le Douche]

Maybe I’m just drawing poorly and am used to brainstorm decks/lands multiple tutors to dig me out if situations. Could you or someone explain why many top deck forego or play only 1 needle in the 75? I still don’t understand why that wouldn’t be main or at least a2-3 of in the side? Also as stated earlier, is hymn the go to over with thoughtseize over oik now since it also hits lands?

Almost every Dark Depths list has either Pithing Needle or Wasteland. Both are aimed at the same card from your opponent: Wasteland.

In the Slower Depths lists, Wasteland replaces Pithing Needle. Basically, a Wasteland can take out a single opposing Wasteland in the same way that a Pithing Needle would. Wasteland also answers some of the same cards that Pithing Needle is aimed at: Karakas, Maze of Ith. Most importantly, Wasteland is just a better Magic card than Pithing Needle. With some lists now adopting Life from the Loam, Wasteland only gets better.

As a side benefit, a Wasteland can be tutored for using all the land tutors, while a Pithing Needle cannot. (This is not as important as you might think, because Pithing Needle lists still run Ghost Quarter as a tutor target to achieve the same benefit).

To head off the contrarians a bit, it is true that 1 Pithing Needle answers 2 Wastelands, while 1 Wasteland does not. And Pithing Needle has some other applications (Sneak Attack, Metalworker, Aether Vial, Jace, ...)

But the bottom line is that many, especially those running Mox Diamond and maybe even Life from the Loam, have decided that Wasteland is worth the slot over Pithing Needle.

The OP (ryscott85) writes that he is
used to brainstorm decks/lands multiple tutors to dig me out if situations.

For the most part, Dark Depths uses lands to get you out of situations. And Dark Depths has a plethora of straight up tutors for lands, one of which (Crop Rotation) tutors the damn card straight into play. At instant speed. Crop Rotation is insane. Anyway, tutoring for your answer is better than trying to brainstorm or ponder your way into it. The plethora of land tutors is really what makes Dark Depths so good, and shockingly consistent as well as resilient for a non-blue combo deck. That, and a combo that often does not require casting a spell.

[Jorge Le Douche]

To put my opinion in one sentence: i understand there are clever ways to interact, but we're a combo deck, isn't it better to just try and kill them?

We're talking about Lands tricks to grind out games, which is fine, but i really feel that trying to go punch-for-punch like a fair deck feels like playing to not lose rather than to win. I understand the mox diamond plan is to slowly grind, but i'm on the turbo plan. Its definitely a different approach.

For sure I would not play Maze of Ith in a turbo Lotus Petal build.

[scapiander]

is there a discord channel?

[Jax-]

And Pithing Needle has some other applications (Sneak Attack, Metalworker, Aether Vial, Jace, ...)



Definetely not Metalworker.

[Mr. Safety]

Wasteland is just a bettet Magic card than Pithing Needle.

No it isn't. It's less conditional, but that's because it is narrower. You could make an argument that in this particular application it is better, but overall Needle has more raw power. Needle is a lot like Cabal Therapy: it rewards experience and format knowledge, which in turn allows you to outplay your opponents.

[Mr. Safety]

Pretty quiet in here...I missed a chance to play this at a recent 1K, but I know there will be another 1K in the spring, probably in April. If I don't get my Tundras before then I'll be playing ESG's and Lotus Petals into a 20/20. I'm still sold on the Therapies (but I dropped down to 2 copies so I could squeeze in Abrupt Decay main.)

So specifically, is anyone still on Petal/ESG? How many Needles are you playing? What is the configuration you're on? I'd like to keep this deck tuned-up, and I'm not against making changes.

[Lav Dafka]

i have got a 5-0 on mtgo here : https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-bg-64945#paper had also a 3-2 and 4-1
can't remember what i beat but it was good decks.
though I dont have all the cards I want on mtgo especially mindbreak trap toxic deluge and surgical
I went 4-1 last week end on paper lost to moon stompy 1-2 beat human 2-1 grixis control 2-0 death and taxes 2-1 and burn 2-0.

I suggest you give more credit to khalni garden +therapy and 4 off library instead of confidant



// 60 Maindeck
// 7 Artifact
4 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle

// 4 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage

// 4 Enchantment
4 Sylvan Library

// 4 Instant
4 Crop Rotation

// 27 Land
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Maze of Ith
3 Khalni Garden
4 Llanowar Wastes

// 14 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sylvan Scrying
2 Duress


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Creature
SB: 3 Sylvan Safekeeper

// 9 Instant
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog

// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge



And this deck even made it into a Saffron Olive instant deck tech. Saffron spike to follow? Maybe a few more Legacy players? https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/instant-deck-tech-turbo-depths-legacy

[Fastbond]

I am new to Legacy and playing the format for two weeks with Depths right now. So maybe I am not enlightened to see it, but for what reasons should I play a suboptimal list with Khalni Garden, Cabal Therapy and 4 Library without any Fetches??? Khalni Garden is bad on it`s own, because it cames in tapped in a deck with a greedy manabase and want to have mana every turn, especally in the first for landing a Turn 1 Bob or Library. Therapy on it`s own is a hit or miss. Seems not great in a combo deck, where you want to disrupt selected pieces of opponents hand. Also I think there is no need to generate further CA, you alreaddy can do it over Bob and Library. 4 Thoughtseizes + 4 Inquisition or a 2/2 split with Duress is really effective discard suit at the moment. It can pick all problematic cards you don`t want to see. 4 Librarys are way to much maybe an additional is worth it. I play 3 Bob + 2 Library right now and I am fine with it. But Library without any fetchland is just bad! I have heared that cantrips with fetches are pretty good in Legacy :cool: And the only real reason for deciding to play Blooming Marsh + painland can only be budget reasons.

For the info:

I am on solnox`s list with a few minor changes right now and it feels pretty strong and maybe can considered to be the optimal list right now. I would recommend it to every new Depths player as a starting point. I am new to the deck and got two 5:0 at my local. I know locals can`t be counted as a real sample size, but when you have a look at all the Top 8 lists on tcdecks, or mtgtop 8 you will not face any Khalni Garden list without that one exception.

Sorry if my post was a bit salty. It never was my intention to offend someone. I really enjoy Depths deck and wanted to share my opinion on that really questionable list.

[adrieng]

got an other 5-0 on mtgo list will be published soon hopefully beating death and taxes merfolk, gobelin, storm and the antiquies war.
changed the mana confluence into blooming marsh added 2 toxic deluge in side and the 3 mindbreak trap. Close to optmal list without the surgicals

[schweinefettmann]

I am new to Legacy and playing the format for two weeks with Depths right now. So maybe I am not enlightened to see it, but for what reasons should I play a suboptimal list with Khalni Garden, Cabal Therapy and 4 Library without any Fetches??? Khalni Garden is bad on it`s own, because it cames in tapped in a deck with a greedy manabase and want to have mana every turn, especally in the first for landing a Turn 1 Bob or Library. Therapy on it`s own is a hit or miss. Seems not great in a combo deck, where you want to disrupt selected pieces of opponents hand. Also I think there is no need to generate further CA, you alreaddy can do it over Bob and Library. 4 Thoughtseizes + 4 Inquisition or a 2/2 split with Duress is really effective discard suit at the moment. It can pick all problematic cards you don`t want to see. 4 Librarys are way to much maybe an additional is worth it. I play 3 Bob + 2 Library right now and I am fine with it. But Library without any fetchland is just bad! I have heared that cantrips with fetches are pretty good in Legacy :cool: And the only real reason for deciding to play Blooming Marsh + painland can only be budget reasons.

For the info:

I am on solnox`s list with a few minor changes right now and it feels pretty strong and maybe can considered to be the optimal list right now. I would recommend it to every new Depths player as a starting point. I am new to the deck and got two 5:0 at my local. I know locals can`t be counted as a real sample size, but when you have a look at all the Top 8 lists on tcdecks, or mtgtop 8 you will not face any Khalni Garden list without that one exception.

Sorry if my post was a bit salty. It never was my intention to offend someone. I really enjoy Depths deck and wanted to share my opinion on that really questionable list.

I’m no lands player, but the khaki garden is for an instant speed blocker, the library is simply for card advantage in combination with other things like crop rotation, sylvan scrying.

therapys can 2,3 for half (ie you can set them back a card after the initial cast, then sac the saproling token or whatever to flashback nuke their hand for whatever 2 or 3 of they have/card that’d lead to pain for you). Also, if you name say echoing truth or stifle or whatever you know would hurt you most at that time, and they don’t have it, you’re golden! Sure it’s a feel bad, but so what if they’re sitting on 3 brainstorms when you can hexmage a marit lage?

I think these sound more like personal approaches to the build. If it doesn’t work to your style, go with your gut. I play a pretty ‘subpar’ build of solidarity, but I can work it pretty well regardless.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mr. Safety]

Uber-budget version was recently teched on mtggoldfish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1DqfUlIl40

The price tag is only about $500, which is pushing burn territory as far as affordability goes. It's unfortunate that the cards needed don't transfer very well to other decks, which means if you invest in this deck then this is really the only deck you can play with those cards. On the positive side this deck is incredibly good right out of the gates and can be improved with small upgrades over time (IoK becomes Thoughtseize, getting fetches and a Bayou.) I really like that they went with the 4 Khalni Garden + 4 Cabal Therapy, it's a cool synergy that adrieng has used with a lot of success. It's harder for someone new to the format to pilot Therapy correctly in the blind, but as something to go along with the discard and ways to flash it back, it does a lot of work. My favorite part, bar none, is that it's a competitive deck in Legacy, in one form currently as a DTB, for less than $500.


...And the only real reason for deciding to play Blooming Marsh + painland can only be budget reasons.

In the early days of this deck in Legacy it played this mana-base to get around Submerge. RUG Delver was a big deck in the format and this turned off one of their key sideboard cards against the deck. Yes, budget reasons as well, but with 12 tutors that shuffle your deck for Sylvan Library the fetchlands aren't as crucial as it seems. Fetches are a free shuffle, sure, but that is a minor thing. It's a way to upgrade after building the deck, for sure.

I don't think 4 Libraries is too many either. It's incredibly good at fighting grindier matchups like Miracles and Grixis Control, not only feeding you the best card in your top 3 every turn, but you can also use your life total a little more aggressively because your life total isn't under pressure from the opponent. Ten maindeck discards and 4 maindeck Libraries is a pretty fucking good start if you want to beat the control decks.

[scryfox]

Has anyone looked into using Leyline of Sanctity (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=204993) as a card out of the board? The double white makes it not terribly castable later, but it helps stop quite a few combo decks right from the get-go as well as hand disruption, while also stopping edict effects. Seems like it might be worth trying, especially in a version that just tries to turbo out the combo right away without worrying about the long game (i.e. a deck with petals/ESG rather than diamonds and libraries).

[Mr. Safety]

What would you cut? Leyline shuts off discard and edicts, but we already have reliable ways to deal with that. Discard slows us down, but our lands can't be discarded, one of the decks strengths along with the combo being safe from countermagic.

The eternal problem of Leylines, especially in a combo deck, is that it forces you to mulligan aggressively. Are you basically looking at Storm? I've been sideboarding a couple of Collective Brutality as additional discard/removal against Miracles, Grixis Control, and Grixis Delver. That works just fine against Storm as well, getting discard up to 9-10 slots. That's a really decent plan against Storm already. I don't think Leylines are necessary. Burn is a favorable matchup already, so Leyline doesn't really warrant slots there either.

So besides Storm, why Leyline of Sanctity?

[solnox]

The thing about library is that you only really need to see 1/2 max per game. Drawing past the first one is already a feel bad. Fetches are a 1 life 0 mana way to look at a new 3 vs spending 1-2 mana on a shuffle effect.

[Mr. Safety]

The thing about library is that you only really need to see 1/2 max per game. Drawing past the first one is already a feel bad. Fetches are a 1 life 0 mana way to look at a new 3 vs spending 1-2 mana on a shuffle effect.

I'll admit 4 is a little excessive, but I could easily be convinced of 3. I currently only play 2 side because of 3 Bobs maindeck.

[johncarvalho]

I'll admit 4 is a little excessive, but I could easily be convinced of 3. I currently only play 2 side because of 3 Bobs maindeck.
Hello there Mr.Safety, do you care to share your list please? I have a friend who wants to enter the format with Depths :smile:

[Mr. Safety]

4x Vampire Hexmage
3x Elvish Spirit Guide
3x Dark Confidant
2x Sylvan Safekeeper
4x Lotus Petal
3x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
2x Cabal Therapy
4x Crop Rotation
3x Pithing Needle
4x Sylvan Scrying
2x Abrupt Decay

4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian’s Stage
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Bayou
2x Blooming Marsh
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x bojuka bog
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Dryad Arbor

Sideboard
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Golgari Charm
1x Toxic Deluge
1x karakas
2x Rite of Consumption
2x Choke
2x Sylvan Library
2x Collective Brutality
1x Abrupt Decay


I'm working on a fairly specific sideboard guide as well. I have the slot changes laid out, but no explanations added yet. It would be specific to my particular build, not a general guide mind you.

EDIT: I ended up adding the 4th Sylvan Scrying.

[scryfox]

What would you cut? Leyline shuts off discard and edicts, but we already have reliable ways to deal with that. Discard slows us down, but our lands can't be discarded, one of the decks strengths along with the combo being safe from countermagic.

The eternal problem of Leylines, especially in a combo deck, is that it forces you to mulligan aggressively. Are you basically looking at Storm? I've been sideboarding a couple of Collective Brutality as additional discard/removal against Miracles, Grixis Control, and Grixis Delver. That works just fine against Storm as well, getting discard up to 9-10 slots. That's a really decent plan against Storm already. I don't think Leylines are necessary. Burn is a favorable matchup already, so Leyline doesn't really warrant slots there either.

So besides Storm, why Leyline of Sanctity?

That's fair, I was mainly thinking of storm/burn and edicts, but I think you are right that it just isn't worth having to mulligan so aggresively. Running dryad arbor is probably a good enough measure against edicts, and I imagine you bring in collective brutality and maybe choke against storm in your list? Thanks for your thoughts!

[Mr. Safety]

That's fair, I was mainly thinking of storm/burn and edicts, but I think you are right that it just isn't worth having to mulligan so aggresively. Running dryad arbor is probably a good enough measure against edicts, and I imagine you bring in collective brutality and maybe choke against storm in your list? Thanks for your thoughts!

Collective Brutality and Surgical Extraction. Choke is too slow and does too little to shut their mana off. Choke is for Miracles, Grixis Control, and other blue control decks. I don't board it in for Delver decks currently because I have Brutality to clear blockers and help that matchup (which doesn't need too much help, honestly.) For Storm the maindeck already has 7 discards and Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog, paired with a fast clock myself. It's actually pretty close to Storm in speed: play some discard then go off turn 2-4 and win. I only CropRot for Bog to prevent losing the turn they go off, otherwise it's generally better to just make a 20/20 and force them to have an answer. I mulligan to discard against Storm, the race is just too close to rely on speed alone. The one exception is if I have a nut-draw into a t1 Marit Lage on the play. It doesn't happen often, mind you.

[scryfox]

Thanks for the sideboarding advice! One last question for now if you don't mind me asking, but why blooming marsh? I was thinking about it, and the only thing I could think of off the top of my head was submerge or maybe surgical, but I wasn't sure how much those concerns would be worth compared to the risk of playing one with too many lands in play.

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks for the sideboarding advice! One last question for now if you don't mind me asking, but why blooming marsh? I was thinking about it, and the only thing I could think of off the top of my head was submerge or maybe surgical, but I wasn't sure how much those concerns would be worth compared to the risk of playing one with too many lands in play.

1) It's mostly for budget reasons. When I got the first Bayou it was at $250 for slightly played. Finding one for less than $300 right now is a pipe dream.
2) The enters tapped clause doesn't come up very often with Blooming Marsh. If I have 3 lands in play already I don't really need any more mana. It's there to get my initial black and green counts up to 14 (I am counting ESG and Petal as initial mana sources.)
3) Submerge is rare. If I were to go the submerge-proof route I would go with 2-3 Blooming Marsh and use Llanowar Wastes instead of Fetch/Basic/Bayou. I don't advocate this. Not playing basics can lose you a small percentage of games where you don't have a basic, you don't have a Pithing Needle, and your opponent kills your lands with Wasteland.
4) I fetch basics much more often than Bayou, and it isn't even close. If I have a turn 1 Needle then I fetch into Bayou, but more often than not I'm playing discard turn 1. I'd say, in very rough terms, that I fetch for basics about 65-70% percent of the time in the blind (t1 or I don't know my opponent's deck yet.)

I haven't had mana issues, like literally zero, from having Blooming Marsh in the deck. It can be a dead draw after land number 3, but any non-combo land after number 3 is usually a dead draw. The one exception is Verdant Catacombs because it can fetch Dryad Arbor for Diabolic Edict or Cabal Therapy flashback. The important part of Marsh is that it's dual land that enters untapped early when you need it, this is a fast combo deck after all. We are already preparing to deal with Wasteland and we're already cold to Blood Moon; playing another non-basic isn't a risk. Regarding Bayou, #1 is far and away more important than Bayou 2-3. Start there and upgrade when you can. I have other priorities for my mtg disposable income right now, but if I can find a good trade or decent deal on Bayou #2 I'll take it.

EDIT: Here is my rough draft of a sideboard guide. Again, it's particular to my list and it doesn't have explanations. I do update it whenever I change the deck, usually within a couple days. Make of it what you will.

D&T +2 Rite, +1 Lili, +1 Charm, +1 Deluge, -2 Duress, -3 ESG
Miracles +2 Library, +2 Rite, +2 Choke, +1 Lili, -3 Needle, -4 ESG
Grixis Control - +2 Library, +2 Rite, +2 Choke, +1 Lili, +1 Charm, -4 ESG, -3 Needle, -1 Petal
Lands +2 Rite, +1 Karakas, +2 Surgical, +2 Library, -3 Thoughtseize, -2 Duress, - 2 Therapy
UW Stoneblade +2 Choke, +2 Library, +2 Rite, +1 Decay, -3 Petal, -4 ESG
Esperblade +1 Charm, +1 Deluge, +2 Library, +2 Rite, +1 Decay, +1 Liliana, -4 Petal, -4 ESG,
Storm +2 Surgical, +2 Brutality, +1 Charm, -2 Safekeeper, -3 Confidant
Burn +2 Rite, +1 Decay, +2 Brutality, +1 Library, -3 Thoughtseize, -3 Confidant,
Dredge +2 Surgical, +1 Decay, +2 Rite, -2 Duress, -3 Thoughtseize,
Reanimator +2 Surgical, +1 Karakas, -3 Thoughtseize
RUG Delver +1 Decay, +2 Library, +2 Brutality, -3 ESG, -2 Petal
Shadow +1 Decay, +2 Library, -3 ESG
Show and Tell +2 Surgical, +2 Rite, +1 Karakas, +2 Brutality, -3 Confidant, -2 Safekeeper, -2 Decay
Eldrazi +1 Decay, +1 Deluge, -2 Duress
Goblins +1 Decay, +1 Charm, +1 Deluge, +1 Lili, -2 Therapy, -2 Duress
Infect +1 Decay, +1 Charm, , +1 Deluge, +1 Lili, +2 Rite, -3 Confidant, -2 Safekeeper, -1 Needle
Dragon Stompy +1 Decay, +1 Charm, +2 Surgical, +2 Library, -2 Needle, -2 Safekeeper, -2 Therapy
Elves +1 Lili, +1 Decay, +1 Charm, +1 Deluge, +2 Brutality, -2 Safekeeper, -3 Needle, -1 Confidant

[scryfox]

Makes sense lol, I completely agree the first is always the most important. And thanks so much for the sb write up! The choices all make sense, and yeah, at a point you just need to choose what you are not going to address super heavily like blood moon as otherwise you warp your deck too much. Nice to have an out, but at a point sometimes is just wrecks your day.

[Jax-]

4x Vampire Hexmage
3x Elvish Spirit Guide
3x Dark Confidant
2x Sylvan Safekeeper
4x Lotus Petal
3x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
2x Cabal Therapy
4x Crop Rotation
3x Pithing Needle
3x Sylvan Scrying
2x Abrupt Decay

4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian’s Stage
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Bayou
2x Blooming Marsh
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x bojuka bog
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Dryad Arbor

Sideboard
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Golgari Charm
1x Toxic Deluge
1x karakas
2x Rite of Consumption
2x Choke
2x Sylvan Library
2x Collective Brutality
1x Abrupt Decay


I'm working on a fairly specific sideboard guide as well. I have the slot changes laid out, but no explanations added yet. It would be specific to my particular build, not a general guide mind you.

Just add the 4th ESG and it would be optimal.

[Mr. Safety]

Just add the 4th ESG and it would be optimal.

Removing...what? I have found the 4th ESG cut to be unproblematic. There really isn't anything else to cut (and I'm already bummed I can't squeeze in the 4th Needle.)

EDIT: DOH! I didn't realize it was at 59 cards maindeck. That slot will likely become Pithing Needle #4, Scrying #4, or Duress #3 before I add the 4th ESG. I suppose I could get the 3rd Decay main and free up a sideboard slot, but I'm not sure I want to do that. An extra Ghost Quarter sideboard has some appeal for me.

Quite often when I am struggling in topdeck mode that 4th ESG just isn't any help. I'm not sure anything outside of combo pieces helps really, but having a vanilla 2/2 for 3 or an extra green mana is pretty 'meh'.

[Jax-]

Removing...what? I have found the 4th ESG cut to be unproblematic. There really isn't anything else to cut (and I'm already bummed I can't squeeze in the 4th Needle.)

EDIT: DOH! I didn't realize it was at 59 cards maindeck. That slot will likely become Pithing Needle #4, Scrying #4, or Duress #3 before I add the 4th ESG. I suppose I could get the 3rd Decay main and free up a sideboard slot, but I'm not sure I want to do that. An extra Ghost Quarter sideboard has some appeal for me.

Quite often when I am struggling in topdeck mode that 4th ESG just isn't any help. I'm not sure anything outside of combo pieces helps really, but having a vanilla 2/2 for 3 or an extra green mana is pretty 'meh'.

I thought you were on the 4th ESG already because the 59 cards and because you shave -4 ESG in some of the matchups in your sb guide.

[Mr. Safety]

I need to fix that. I update the guide after changes, must have missed it.

[Mr. Safety]

I updated the sideboard guide. I ended up putting in the 4th Sylvan Scrying for the open slot, so this reflects that. I feel that Sylvan Scrying is the right spot because I noticed I was siding in a lot of Libraries in different matchups. Cutting 2 drops for 2 drops makes sense. I may be completely wrong in this, but again, it's a rough draft. I also want to maintain a critical mass of tutors for consistencies' sake.

D&T +2 Rite, +1 Lili, +1 Charm, +1 Deluge, -2 Duress, -3 ESG
Miracles +2 Library, +2 Rite, +2 Choke, +1 Lili, -3 Needle, -3 ESG, -1 Petal
Grixis Control +2 Library, +2 Rite, +2 Choke, +1 Lili, +1 Charm, -3 ESG, -3 Needle, -2 Scrying
Lands +2 Rite, +1 Karakas, +2 Surgical, +2 Library, -3 Thoughtseize, -2 Duress, - 2 Therapy
UW Stoneblade +2 Choke, +2 Library, +2 Rite, +1 Decay, +1 Charm, +1 Deluge, -4 Petal, -3 ESG, -2 Scrying
Esperblade +1 Charm, +1 Deluge, +2 Library, +2 Rite, +1 Decay, +1 Liliana, -3 ESG, -2 Scrying, -2 Petal
Storm +2 Surgical, +2 Brutality, +1 Charm, -2 Safekeeper, -3 Confidant
Burn +2 Rite, +1 Decay, +2 Brutality, +1 Library, -3 Thoughtseize, -3 Confidant,
Dredge +2 Surgical, +1 Decay, +2 Rite, -2 Duress, -3 Thoughtseize,
Reanimator +2 Surgical, +1 Karakas, -3 Thoughtseize
Delver +1 Decay, +2 Library, +2 Brutality, -3 ESG, -2 Petal
Shadow +1 Decay, +2 Library, -3 ESG
Show and Tell +2 Surgical, +2 Rite, +1 Karakas, +2 Brutality, -3 Confidant, -2 Safekeeper, -2 Decay
Eldrazi +1 Decay, +1 Deluge, -2 Duress
Goblins +1 Decay, +1 Charm, +1 Deluge, +1 Lili, -2 Therapy, -2 Duress
Infect +1 Decay, +1 Charm, , +1 Deluge, +1 Lili, +2 Rite, -3 Confidant, -2 Safekeeper, -1 Needle
Dragon Stompy +1 Decay, +1 Charm, +2 Surgical, +2 Library, -2 Needle, -2 Safekeeper, -2 Therapy
Elves +1 Lili, +1 Decay, +1 Charm, +1 Deluge, +2 Brutality, -2 Safekeeper, -3 Needle, -1 Confidant

I'm still trying to figure out the Stoneblade matchup, I haven't played it much. I know I want ways to kill TNN, but I don't know if I want to go so deep into fighting on a fair axis. It's less controlling than Miracles or Grixis but it has a lot of similar elements (Force, StP, Jace.) It also usually has Wastelands in some number, so I don't cut Needles like I do against Miracles/GrixisC. I really need to get in a bunch more reps with this deck to nail it down.

[Mr. Safety]

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20984&d=339205&f=LE

Traitor! Even DNSolver is switching over to Mox Diamond.

[Jax-]

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20984&d=339205&f=LE

Traitor! Even DNSolver is switching over to Mox Diamond.

It's more about Brainstorm.

[Mr. Safety]

The Brainstorm/Stifle splash w/Flusterstorm sideboard has been a known quantity for a while, Negator77 has been on it since forever. The Mox Diamond change was what surprised me because DNSolver has been advocating for the Petal/ESG plan for a long time.

[Mr. Safety]

Sharing here because I can't let the Mox Diamond players win:

Got a 5-0 last night with this. Beat Miracles, Burn, Bug Delver x2, BR Reanimator, all favorable matchups.

4 Depths
4 Stage
3 Urborg
4 Verdant
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Ghost Quarter

4 Lotus Petal
3 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Pithing Needle
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress

4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Expedition Map

1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Vampire Hexmage
2 Green Sun's Zenith

SB:
3 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Rite of Consumption
1 Boseiju
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Karakas

This was his last big message, pre-Brainstorm but Flusterstorm splash. 12/5/18, so just about a month ago.

My big beefs with the list is 1) no basic lands and 2) what does Brainstorm do that tutors don't do? I could be convinced of zero basics if you're just tossing the Blood Moon/Back to Basics matchups out the window because it's on the downward trend but I can't be convinced to add 'air' to a deck that is already uber-consistent without Brainstorm. Turbo Depths is easily the most consistent non-blue 2-color deck I've ever played.

[DNSolver]

Mr. Safety, this thread is for all versions of Turbo Depths. BUG is included in this.

No basic lands has cost me zero games so far. We're pretty dead to a reasonable Red Stompy draw anyway. If the opponent casts Back to Basics, we're probably winning or losing anyway. Remember that Miracles is favorable if you leave enough mana untapped for their turn and play enough lights-out cards.

I agree that Turbo Depths is consistent. That's what is really appealing to me about the deck in general. Now for advantages of BUG. I consider Brainstorm a way to 1) increase consistent access to cards that you *can't* tutor for, such as Flusterstorm, discard, or sideboard cards, 2) put back situational cards such as Sejiri Steppe, Bojuka Bog, and especially Pithing Needle, 3) hide cards from Hymn to Tourach - one of the few ways to lose against UBx decks. The only other card you get is Flusterstorm (I don't count the 1-of Stifle), which is good vs combo decks such as Sneak and Show and Storm while also serving as a nice tool vs UWx. So for the current metagame, you will admit that BUG looks rather attractive.

Mox Diamond *has* to be played in BUG to maintain all your colors consistently. This comes with an increased land count, which is a cost - your topdecks are, on average, more land-heavy. But often you are hoping to topdeck land #3 or land #4 anyway in order to combo. Interestingly, with straight BG my green sources only number like 10 or so post-board against UWx. The biggest reason why I lose any games at all vs UWx with BG is because of this mana screw.

One thing I don't like about BUG is that the sideboard plans vs a lot of decks involve removing Brainstorm or Mox Diamond, essentially making the deck into BG turbo with increased land count. It's interesting, but I think there is something wrong with that. Another problem is the lack of sideboard space for some cards I want to fit in.

I still play Turbo Depths in paper (don't have Mox Diamond or blue lands) and I went 6-2 in the Legacy classic in Worcester with it. The turbo version is still strong too.

[Mr. Safety]

Cool, thanks for the response. I understand all versions are welcome here, I was just surprised where you were advocating a non-Mox list a month ago and are now on a Mox list. It's no big deal, and I understand the online metagame is different, as well as card availability much higher online. It's good to know that basic lands aren't too big of a tradeoff, but for my own sanity I'll stick to straight BG. I think the blue splash is the same reason I added Dark Confidant: it lets you dig further for cards you need that can't be tutored, especially sideboard cards. Library does the same, but I know from experience that it's even better when you have both Confidant AND Library.

Would you mind breaking down your Miracles approach for BG? That is the one matchup I tend to struggle against.

[downtoonelife]

@Mr. Safety - I'm curious in what part are you having trouble against Miracles?

I used to play Turbo Depths and now playing Turbo Animator (traitor :laugh:) and I don't have any problem facing Miracles. Just play discard, sylvan safekeeper and if you could surgical their swords to plowshare then it's a guarantee you'd win against them. Sylvan Library helps a lot also.

[Mr. Safety]

I probably just need more practice. I may be leaning too heavily on early Confidants to pressure Miracles. It just seems like they always have the Terminus.

[dd_bray]

Yeah, I used to have the same issue w/Terminus vs Miracles. Biggest help I found was to leave GQ in post-board and use the forced shuffle to get it out in response to whatever they're using to draw. Also helps get you out from under counterbalance, as does Surgical.

[DNSolver]

Yeah, I used to have the same issue w/Terminus vs Miracles. Biggest help I found was to leave GQ in post-board and use the forced shuffle to get it out in response to whatever they're using to draw. Also helps get you out from under counterbalance, as does Surgical.

GQ is not a forced shuffle. Surgical is, but it won't resolve vs Counterbalance most of the time.

Keys to the Miracles matchup are not tapping out on your turn generally. That's the biggest mistake I see - letting them play Jace. This is also true against Grixis - don't let them play Jace. If you commit to this plan vs Miracles, you can board out your Pithing Needles and that makes room for your good cards. Usually you want Decay + Trophy to make sure you can answer B2B or Mentor.

You can save discard to make sure that your important spells resolve, but balance this against the chance of letting them cast something big. Depends on how many cards they have in hand vs you. Discard generally takes cards that answer your cards (Swords to Plowshares if your hand is combo-centric or if you can Surgical them, Council's Judgment vs Library/Safekeeper), cards that win them the game (B2B, Mentor), and then cards that give them card advantage or pressure (Snapcaster, Clique, Predict sometimes, Brainstorm). Leveraging discard correctly can be very scary for them. If you're playing on MTGO, take your time on these decisions to plan out your next few turns.

Sylvan Library and Sylvan Safekeeper are very important. Protect them if possible, and value hands with them pretty highly. It can be good to wait a bit before casting them if you have other things to do or if that allows you to not tap out (see above). Depending on what they have in hand that can beat these (Engineered Explosives, Council's Judgment) you can leverage your information advantage by playing cards only when you want to. Information is very key here. Obviously if you have Boseiju + Rite, that gives you a different plan that is much more straightforward.

Bringing in Surgical is good vs Swords to Plowshares. However, Miracles generally has other instant-speed effects that can also hit Lage - Celestial Purge, Path to Exile, instant speed blocking with Clique -> Jace bounce. So it's not game over if you can Surgical plow.

Hope this helps.

[Darklingske]

Keys to the Miracles matchup are not tapping out on your turn generally. That's the biggest mistake I see - letting them play Jace.

Ok, now I'm totally lost. What do you mean by this? It's not that we can do alot against Jace on their turn except for a trophy. Or am I missing something?

[jolssoni]

Ok, now I'm totally lost. What do you mean by this? It's not that we can do alot against Jace on their turn except for a trophy. Or am I missing something?

If you present the combo on board, they can't tap out for Jace for obvious reasons. You can delay Jace's landing to turn 5-6 by just letting the combo sit in play while you try to dig for insurance (discard, Safekeeper, needle to Jace). EDIT: brevity

[Negator77']

If you have the combo on board/you're mana off but have ESG in hand/need to resolve one Crop Rotation for the kill and they don't have Force, they can't tap out for Jace for obvious reasons. You can delay Jace's landing to turn 5-6 by just letting the combo sit in play while you try to dig for insurance (discard, Safekeeper, needle to Jace).

THIS. Against Miralces and Grixis Control, you have the option of just sitting on the combo (which Depths is generally able to put together before the dreaded turn 4 Jace) and waiting until you are ready to combo. They have virtually no clock in most games to pressure you into acting. Sometimes that means you wait until you can play an additional fetch to play around Diabolic Edict with Dryad Arbor. Sometimes it means waiting for your additional protection card whether that is discard, Safekeeper, Surgical, Crop Rotation, Flusterstorm, etc depending on your version. While you wait, almost everything they want to cast during their own turn has an additional cost of 1 or 2 or they just flat out die. This applies to Mentor, Back to Basics, etc. too. Obviously if you can just kill them early with all known or mostly known info, you go for it. If not, like DNSolver said, you have to prioritize not allowing them to slam Jace or other bombs by threatening the kill each turn. Oddly, played some exhibition matches Vs Whitefaces on Miracles a couple of days ago where this comes up a ton. He streamed it here if you want to check it out: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/369241107

[Mr. Safety]

GQ is not a forced shuffle. Surgical is, but it won't resolve vs Counterbalance most of the time.

Keys to the Miracles matchup are not tapping out on your turn generally. That's the biggest mistake I see - letting them play Jace. This is also true against Grixis - don't let them play Jace. If you commit to this plan vs Miracles, you can board out your Pithing Needles and that makes room for your good cards. Usually you want Decay + Trophy to make sure you can answer B2B or Mentor.

You can save discard to make sure that your important spells resolve, but balance this against the chance of letting them cast something big. Depends on how many cards they have in hand vs you. Discard generally takes cards that answer your cards (Swords to Plowshares if your hand is combo-centric or if you can Surgical them, Council's Judgment vs Library/Safekeeper), cards that win them the game (B2B, Mentor), and then cards that give them card advantage or pressure (Snapcaster, Clique, Predict sometimes, Brainstorm). Leveraging discard correctly can be very scary for them. If you're playing on MTGO, take your time on these decisions to plan out your next few turns.

Sylvan Library and Sylvan Safekeeper are very important. Protect them if possible, and value hands with them pretty highly. It can be good to wait a bit before casting them if you have other things to do or if that allows you to not tap out (see above). Depending on what they have in hand that can beat these (Engineered Explosives, Council's Judgment) you can leverage your information advantage by playing cards only when you want to. Information is very key here. Obviously if you have Boseiju + Rite, that gives you a different plan that is much more straightforward.

Bringing in Surgical is good vs Swords to Plowshares. However, Miracles generally has other instant-speed effects that can also hit Lage - Celestial Purge, Path to Exile, instant speed blocking with Clique -> Jace bounce. So it's not game over if you can Surgical plow.

Hope this helps.

Big time, thanks.

[Mrplow25]

For those that play lost legacy in their sideboard, do you board them in for swords to plowshare match ups like dnt, miracles and uw Stoneblade?

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[pedro]

Not playing turbo depths from many months, is there a good starting point? i'm searching for an updated list.
I mean versions without mox diamond (can't afford those cards).

[Mr. Safety]

I've done a ton of testing and I think Maze of Ith is worth a maindeck slot. Sometimes you just need time to assemble protection for the combo (discard, Steppe, etc) and Maze does that really will. I also got the chance to copy it with Thespian's Stage to stone-cold stop an opponent's offense (delver variant.) I think the tricks with Stage are worth it's inclusion, that one slot does a lot of work. I ended up cutting 1x Sylvan Scrying for it. I like how it works in the mirror match and against Lands as well (I have a glut of Lands players in my local metagame.) Another maindeck answer to Griseltard isn't bad either. I don't use Moxen but I don't think you need them to make Maze good.

So come hell or high water, I'm going to a 1K Saturday and this is my list:

4x Vampire Hexmage
3x Elvish Spirit Guide
3x Dark Confidant
2x Sylvan Safekeeper
4x Lotus Petal
3x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
2x Cabal Therapy
4x Crop Rotation
3x Pithing Needle
3x Sylvan Scrying
2x Abrupt Decay

4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian’s Stage
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Bayou
2x Blooming Marsh
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x bojuka bog
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Maze of Ith

Sideboard
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Golgari Charm
1x Toxic Deluge
1x karakas
2x Rite of Consumption
2x Choke
2x Sylvan Library
2x Collective Brutality
1x Abrupt Decay


If I can nab an Assassin's Trophy I will swap that out with the Abrupt Decay in the sideboard. Also debating a 2nd Deluge over Golgari Charm, but I like the instant speed potential and the added enchantment removal against the odd Blood Moon deck (it's an awkward answer, but it's an answer.)

[Mr. Safety]

What are people's impression of Bitterblossom lately? At one point in time it was a really good sideboard option. I don't know which matchups it helps against, maybe Miracles and Grixis Control, but I haven't tried it in a long time.

[adrieng]

I had an other 5-0 (third one) with previous build, but now I m testing warping wail 2 main 2 side and I am liking them, the deck is a little weak to combo decks and I can't spalsh blue for flusterstorm
though my version is better against combo than darkconfidant build because of cabal therapy+garden. Warping wail is a very good card in my deck it gives outs to many things and is never dead.

I am testing planar void instead of surgical cause I had problems against dredge and lands is not so good; don't know if it weakens too much the miracle matchup which is a good matchup for my list.

EDIT : back to surgical planar void doesn't answers turn one entomb into fatty and is not good enough for miracle

EDIT : discard is better with cabal for the main, will play the wail only inside

EDIT : back to 4 scrying 4 garden testing nihil spllbomb in side instead of surgical


// 60 Maindeck
// 7 Artifact
3 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map

// 4 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage

// 4 Enchantment
4 Sylvan Library

// 6 Instant
4 Crop Rotation

// 27 Land
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Maze of Ith
4 Khalni Garden
4 Blooming Marsh
3 Llanowar Wastes

// 12 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sylvan Scrying
2 Duress


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Creature
SB: 3 Sylvan Safekeeper
// 3 Enchantment
SB: 3 Surgical extraction
// 5 Instant
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Warping Wail
// 1 Land
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
// 3 Sorcery
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge

[Mr. Safety]

How is your deck weak to combo decks with nine maindeck discard? I am not criticizing, you're doing very well, but it seems excessive. Eight is accepted and I am getting away with 7 (Confidant draws me into them, Therapy doubles up.) I think the Warping Wail idea is cool, but reactive. I would think Sneak/Show would be a favorable matchup given the Therapies and heavy discard emphasis, same with Storm. Flusterstorm counters instant speed removal on Marit Lage. What is Warping Wail countering/killing? You say it gives you a lot of outs, but I can't seem to think of any besides Show and Tell, Burning Wish, and Infernal Tutor. I think those slots would be better as Abrupt Decay or Assassin's Trophy. I think with so many lands you could even pull off Maelstrom Pulse.

Planar Void is fine but it's no Surgical Extraction. I see a fair amount of Dredge at my local and I have an incredibly positive matchup (maindeck Bog will do that.) Even without Bog I can race them typically by mulliganing aggressively. Surgical is only a speedbump agains them, but with Therapy binning a creature to exile their Bridges and Surgical getting their bridges or GGT's it should be enough to get there. The real reason for surgical is *not* losing to Reanimator t1. It also pairs with discard to completely strip combo decks of key pieces.

EDIT: I got an interaction wrong, deleted.

[adrieng]

it seems you dindn't test enough the storm matchup 9 discard is not enough against storm, but with cabal therapy I am fine that baically double the numbr of discard.
Against ichorid led ichorid manaless is a bye, crop into bog is not enough if they go off turn one they can easily have a cabal therapy on crop, surgical is not good enough.

Confidant is too slow against storm, they can go off turn 1-3, 8 discard is not enough especially if you don't play khalni garden +cabal therapy.
Needle doesn't work on ichorid.

Planar void seems better to me against reanimator than surgical but not still sure (I own both), you have outs to all their creatures, and they want to pass a discard or two before going off usually.

warping wail is a very good card against storm(counters stuff), against elf (kill crea or counter order/glimpse), against poison (kill crea), against deth and taxes (kill crea and mother can't give protection), against show and tell (counters stuff)
against deck playing confidant, kills strix or counters tourach against grixis control, kills unflipped delver, young pyromancer monastery and so on ....

the card can also accelerate into turn 3 token turn two eldrazi token or flashback cabal therapy with the token, it is a very good card and a better one than decay maindeck.

[Sparkii]

Oops, I was playing that wrong then. I did some test matches against Dredge and that's how we played it. Reading the card it's definitely a triggered ability. Even without Needle I still went roughly 9/10 against Dredge. Depths is naturally just faster, even without CR > Bog. Admittedly I haven't played against Storm much with this deck. It isn't a popular option locally, there might be 1-2 storm players in a 1K of 40 people. Lands, Death and Taxes, Show and Tell, and lots of janky shit make up most of my local meta.

How did you nor your opponent not know how needle or ichord works?

Also if you’re surgical-ing grave trolls you’re likely doing it wrong.

[Mr. Safety]

How did you nor your opponent not know how needle or ichord works?

Also if you’re surgical-ing grave trolls you’re likely doing it wrong.

We were both testing; he had just put together dredge and was unfamiliar with the deck and I hadn't faced Dredge in a long time. Whatever, it wasn't a tournament. Thanks for the helpful clarification. #sarcasm

If my opponent is on the play and gets only 1 dredger in the graveyard I will 100% snap off a Surgical for that dredger. It likely would buy me at least 2 turns to combo off. As I said, the matchup is already favorable. If the matchup is favorable already you can be flexible in how you utilize your sideboard cards. No need to wait for Bridges etc when all you need is a time walk to hit them for 20.

[tescrin]

What are people's impression of Bitterblossom lately? At one point in time it was a really good sideboard option. I don't know which matchups it helps against, maybe Miracles and Grixis Control, but I haven't tried it in a long time.

Blossom is just generally good IMO; though I'm coming from a much more "fair" perspective; may be bad for the deck.

Blossom stops opposing Lages *really* well, keeps Lily/Edict off your back, turns Delver into a 1/2 or so, and was honestly buffed when DRS was removed because instead of getting bolted each turn he was alive, you can now basically guarantee it buys you significant time *unless* you're already way behind on board. The fact that most decks can't answer the card at all in the main, sometimes not even in the sidebaord, and that even when they can it almost always takes multiple cards is a testament to its value.

Finally, it continues being a threat even after sweepers, making it reasonable against Miracles, Blood Moon, or similar.

Back when DRS was all the rage I still preferred Blossom against Souls, as it often out-grinded the souls. Lastly, no one is running Goyf; which leaves you in a very safe position as one of Blossom's biggest drawbacks is giving the perm +2 to opposing goyfs.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm fairly locked in right now with my list, but I have a Bitterblossom available. I just don't know what matchup its good against (and Maze of Ith doesn't do the job as well or better.) Those are the 2 cards I'm debating for the 75th card. I think you're spot on, it does a lot for the deck.

I was also big on Bitterblossom when DRS was legal. It was a way to add just a couple cards and be a legitimate mid-range value deck. DRS, Confidant, and Bitterblossom were huge in control matchups.

[filln]

I just don't know what matchup its good against (and Maze of Ith doesn't do the job as well or better.)

Miracles and Grixis Control. Maze of Ith can't become a clock.

[tescrin]

Miracles and Grixis Control. Maze of Ith can't become a clock.




I'm fairly locked in right now with my list, but I have a Bitterblossom available. I just don't know what matchup its good against (and Maze of Ith doesn't do the job as well or better.) Those are the 2 cards I'm debating for the 75th card. I think you're spot on, it does a lot for the deck.

It's noteworthy that when you're fighting Lands/Gurmag/Delver/D&T; Bitterblossom can't be wastelanded (or ported.)

I don't mind Karakas/Maze as a way to fight off Lages but I definitely would *never* say it's stronger than Blossom at doing it. Any Wasteland deck (Delver, D&T, Lands, etc.) can get out from under it. As a long-time fan of KotR I've seen a lot of matches fall through Maze when I thought I was safe. D&T and Lands can also Port it, and D&T can Flick-it as well. That's not to say Maze is bad, but it's a lot less reliable in practice when you notice the prevalence of Wasteland vs the prevalence of main-deck enchant hate

best of lucky though! Maze is a fun/great card

[adrieng]

the role of maze is too be wasted so that you can combo off safely when you don't have the needle on wasteland.

if they don't waste you can slow them down by copying it with stage, and if they waste fine one less waste for your combo.

bitterblossom can't be fetched by your millions of land tutors.

maze shld be played at least a one off, i have been happy with the second one cutting a needle for it, maze does often a better job here.

there is no reason not to play maze, and i think 2 is the right number

[grimfield]

Hey all, I recently got some dark depths and am looking to try this deck out! I have read the thread and think I’m most interested in the bug version with mox diamond (as I have these cards in paper).

Are people still on this version, or are most people on straight bg? I don’t own confidants so I am trying to shy away from those versions. Any technology for the bug version I should be aware of? Praise marit lage, hope to see some folks at scg Syracuse!


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[JackaBo]

Hey all, I recently got some dark depths and am looking to try this deck out! I have read the thread and think I’m most interested in the bug version with mox diamond (as I have these cards in paper).

Are people still on this version, or are most people on straight bg? I don’t own confidants so I am trying to shy away from those versions. Any technology for the bug version I should be aware of? Praise marit lage, hope to see some folks at scg Syracuse!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The biggest draw to BUG is the engine of loam and brainstorm plus loam plus ceohalid coliseum.
And Leo

[Negator77']

Hey all, I recently got some dark depths and am looking to try this deck out! I have read the thread and think I’m most interested in the bug version with mox diamond (as I have these cards in paper).

Are people still on this version, or are most people on straight bg? I don’t own confidants so I am trying to shy away from those versions. Any technology for the bug version I should be aware of? Praise marit lage, hope to see some folks at scg Syracuse!





The biggest draw to BUG is the engine of loam and brainstorm plus loam plus ceohalid coliseum.
And Leo

Not sure whether they are talking about BUG Depths or the BUG Lands list (aka Baxter BUG) you mention above. If you are talking about Depths, I can send you a link to the current list + a SB guide.

[Mr. Safety]

Tournament had 24 players, 5 rounds, cut to top 8. I went 3/2 beating Rector-Fit, Grixis Death's Shadow, and Ub Omni-Tell. Lost to Moon Stompy and Eldrazi Stompy. Nic Fit and Grixis DS were very lopsided, 2-0 smashes. Omni-Tell had me losing g1 and getting a glut of discard into Surgical/combo g2. G3 was a grind, but i got there in turns.

I won g1 against moon stompy with a fast t2 combo (urborg, dd, hexmage, gg.) G2 i got hit with t1 Magus of the Moon, i had no basics but i had petal/ssg for the decay but don't draw it. G3 i see t1 moon, t2 rabblemaster and i get beat up quick. I kept a hand with basics but again didn't find outs. I even had a Bob but it got nailed with Chandra after drawing only 1 extra card (nonbasic land.)

Eldrazi was tough g1 as he drew his 1-of Karakas. I had the answer but i couldn't fight off Endbringer (a card i was unfamiliar with, to say the least.) G2 i punch through with a couple of lucksack names from therapy, chalice t1 and Endbringer t4. I grind through double TKS because i had a pure lands package and i get there. G3 sees too fast of a start and TKS doing bad things to my tutors in hand. This matchup in particular had me wanting Assassins Trophy to deal with Endbringer and TKS. I'll have to pick them up.

Fun day, i blasted through people with 20/20's and feel like i could have edged out the eldrazi matchup if i had access to Asstrophy and more familiarity with Endbringer. I ended up around 12th after tiebreakers.

Maze of Ith is out, it did not perform well enough. It was always a card that made me not-lose rather than win. I cut it for the 4th ESG. There were a few games where i could have shaved a full turn off or even sneak out a win if i had just 1 more mana source.

EDIT: I stone-cold murdered the Rector Fit player with a Surgical Extraction on his Academy Rector. It pays to have niche card knowledge, and he wasn't aware of the interaction. Luckily the judge was on the right side of history and confirmed it; my opponent was clueless about it.

[solnox]

The biggest draw to BUG is the engine of loam and brainstorm plus loam plus ceohalid coliseum.
And Leo

This might be the wrong thread for you.

[Darklingske]

EDIT: I stone-cold murdered the Rector Fit player with a Surgical Extraction on his Academy Rector. It pays to have niche card knowledge, and he wasn't aware of the interaction. Luckily the judge was on the right side of history and confirmed it; my opponent was clueless about it.

Care to elaborate? I think I'm missing something about the interaction...

[Mr. Safety]

Care to elaborate? I think I'm missing something about the interaction...

EDIT for clarity and to clean up a mess.


603.4. A triggered ability may read "When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect]." When the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers only if it is; otherwise it does nothing. If the ability triggers, it checks the stated condition again as it resolves. If the condition isn't true at that time, the ability is removed from the stack and does nothing. Note that this mirrors the check for legal targets. This rule is referred to as the "intervening 'if' clause" rule. (The word "if" has only its normal English meaning anywhere else in the text of a card; this rule only applies to an "if" that immediately follows a trigger condition.)

Academy Rector

[Darklingske]

Oh, right! I missed the may part. Thanks for the clarification!

[JDK]

Edit: I think this works because its a trigger that follows-up with a 'may' activated ability. You respond to the dies trigger, exile the rector, the activated ability can't work because rector cannot be exiled to the ability.

The important part is the "if you do". You should really read into MTG's trigger rules and what an activated ability is. You seem to confuse those two a lot.

[Mr. Safety]

The important part is the "if you do". You should really read into MTG's trigger rules and what an activated ability is. You seem to confuse those two a lot.

EDIT: I edited my post, it should be much cleaner now.

[Mr. Safety]

Oh, right! I missed the may part. Thanks for the clarification!

Even without the may part it would still be able to be disrupted. See comp-rule above.

[JDK]

I agree, it trips me up. In my defense it's a fairly obscure intervening 'if' clause, something that rarely comes up. My opponent playing the deck didn't know it was possible. Said opponent has been playing magic a long time. If you know the comprehensive trigger rules in every situation you're either a judge or uncommonly knowledgeable. Congratulations? Maybe I shouldn't, but I rely on judges for the fine print explanations for rare/complicated interactions.
Sure, but if you play Magic for a couple of years, you should really know the difference between an activated ability (<cost>:<effect>) and a triggered ability (<when/whenever/at><condition><effect>).

[filln]

And I do...I'm not sure where the comment stems from. I had a hard time explaining Academy Rector, sure. Where did I get it wrong before between this easily discernible difference? I'm willing to admit I've probably goofed it up in the past. On the surface Rector looks like a trigger followed by an activated ability. I didn't know it was an intervening-if-clause, but now I do. I mean, what is your goal here? Rules shaming? Calling me a noob? I don't understand the angle. Am I annoying you?

Let's all chill and just take this as a learning experience for anyone else who happens upon this thread. To be clear, there is no activated ability component of Rector. Perhaps the discussion became pointed because people who play with Dark Depths are especially attuned to the rules around triggered abilities (especially state-based triggers). The way Rector works is similar to when an opponent Wastelands the Dark Depths with zero counters on it. Check to see if there are zero counters (or if Rector entered the graveyard), then if you're able to sacrifice it (or exile it, for Rector) you get to do fun things. If something happens in between through Wasteland for Depths or Surgical fo Rector, no fun happens.

Anyway, Depths made it into Top 4 of the Baltimore Team Open (unclear on personal record): http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/126720 as well as 16th at the Classic: http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/126837. Nothing too spicy, seems to be the standard non-Turbo BG lists.

[JDK]

And I do...I'm not sure where the comment stems from. I had a hard time explaining Academy Rector, sure. Where did I get it wrong before between this easily discernible difference? I'm willing to admit I've probably goofed it up in the past. On the surface Rector looks like a trigger followed by an activated ability. I didn't know it was an intervening-if-clause, but now I do. I mean, what is your goal here? Rules shaming? Calling me a noob? I don't understand the angle. Am I annoying you?

Since you ask me where you got it wrong:

Edit: I think this works because its a trigger that follows-up with a 'may' activated ability. You respond to the dies trigger, exile the rector, the activated ability can't work because rector cannot be exiled to the ability.


Needle on Ichorid slows them down quite a bit too.

My goal is that people (in this case you) get better at understanding the rules, which leads to better posts in here. So no need, to get agitated.

filln mentions a good example of how this knowledge translates to Dark Depths. I've also seen people needling Dark Depths...

[Mr. Safety]

Point taken, thanks.

If I may, I'd like to ask others how they approach the Eldrazi matchup. I felt like I should have been able to pull out the match but I just didn't get there (I'm sure I made mistakes.) I felt like I had to work through the roadblocks and then combo quickly or I was toast, Eldarzi seems very aggressive. From what I've seen in just those 3 games I think I should mulligan aggressively, just a pure race rather than trying to interact too much with Chalice/Endbringer. It looks like Eldrazi took 7th in Baltimore and Depths took 4th.

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=21066&d=339961&f=LE

[tescrin]

I've also seen people needling Dark Depths...
To be fair, that still does something. You're correct that in most cases it's not the optimal choice; but it does prevent one version of the win condition (and I have on exceptionally rare occasions seen that occur in lands)

[uncletiggy]

Played a stifle heavy bug depths list in baltimore in some side events with trophies instead of decays and a 3-1 waste to gq split to a 50-50 finish on the weekend. Stifle was bad but fun bob+library+loam+brainstorm was super strong all weekend. Moving forward with bug I'd play this:

4 hexmage
4 crop rotation
4 brainstorm
4 thoughtsieze
3 needle
2 trophy
2 dark confidant
2 loam
1 library
1 exploration
1 duress

4 mox diamond
4 depths
4 stage
4 urborg
4 Verdant
2 misty
2 bayou
1 usea
1 tropical
1 forest
3 wasteland
1 step
1 gq



Sb
1 Karakas
1 dryad arbor
1 bog
1 needle
1 assasin trophy
1 duress
1 dread of night
1 toxic deluge
2 decay
2 tracker
3 surgical

[apple713]

Played a stifle heavy bug depths list in baltimore in some side events with trophies instead of decays and a 3-1 waste to gq split to a 50-50 finish on the weekend. Stifle was bad but fun bob+library+loam+brainstorm was super strong all weekend. Moving forward with bug I'd play this:

4 hexmage
4 crop rotation
4 brainstorm
4 thoughtsieze
3 needle
2 trophy
2 dark confidant
2 loam
1 library
1 exploration
1 duress

4 mox diamond
4 depths
4 stage
4 urborg
4 Verdant
2 misty
2 bayou
1 usea
1 tropical
1 forest
3 wasteland
1 step
1 gq



Sb
1 Karakas
1 dryad arbor
1 bog
1 needle
1 assasin trophy
1 duress
1 dread of night
1 toxic deluge
2 decay
2 tracker
3 surgical

I dont see stifle in your list, did you switch to brainstorm?

Also, did you find that brainstorm was worth it? It seems rather weak with limited shuffle effects and as the sole blue card.

[Darklingske]

I dont see stifle in your list, did you switch to brainstorm?

Also, did you find that brainstorm was worth it? It seems rather weak with limited shuffle effects and as the sole blue card.

12 shuffle effects (if you count Loam as a semi-shuffle) are enough to include BS.

[apple713]

12 shuffle effects (if you count Loam as a semi-shuffle) are enough to include BS.

Crip rotations should probably be used more strategically than as shuffle effects.

[tescrin]

Crip rotations should probably be used more strategically than as shuffle effects.

Lots of Brainstorm decks don't have 12 shuffle without counting Ponder or SFM; but your Ponders are often better used than a "shuffle, draw 1" and your SFMs may want to be played out earlier (unless you T1 BS'd, which is risky.) 8-9 fetch is the usual antidote; with his 2 loams that's about even, with Bob and Library helping you sift the garbage and with Crop Rotation as a backup; seems like BS may be *more* reliable here than normal.

As another comparison; ANT just runs the 4 ponder, 8-9 fetches as standard (unless you count the tutors.) U/R delver runs 8-9 fetches, 4 ponder, and maybe some Light up the Stage (which is pretty mediocre for getting rid of your garbage)

So I think it's probably doable; especially since Dredge is (if found) available every turn.

[uncletiggy]

I cut the stifles after the weekend for +1 needle +1 duress +1 exploration. Stifle was cute i had a game against temur delver where i stifled his first fetch then wasted his first land drop and we just kinda looked at each other like stop doing my thing... but as a protection holding up blue mana was not reasonable.

Brainstorm was great, it rarely functioned as a set up card it was always better for rebuilding and ditching excess diamonds. Ive always been underwhelmed with sylvan scrying because the deck is so hungry to make land drops which is why id like to try the single exploration. The bob loam library package was stellar every single game at giving me a critical mass of cards for brainstorming into the last piece. Loam clears the top of your deck pretty nicely and without deathrite floating around is pretty free game 1 i almost always side one out post board.

[Jax-]

You basically instantly fold to any combo with that list. Not the spot where I want to be if im playing a BUG Depths list.

I appreciate when people try new things and try to innovate, but we already have a super tuned BUG Depths list, we have thousands of matches with it under our belt (and with thousands I really mean thousands) on MTGO, GP and big events. I dont wanna sound harsh or anything, but maybe, in my humble opinion, it should be the starting point if you wanna make some changes.

[uncletiggy]

Hmm I was playing the list you are refering too almost 3 years ago at this point maybe 3 cards have changed since then. The meta has slowed down a lot since then. The current paper enviroment is very hostile to spell based combo and signifigantly more "fair" then mtgo. Im not advocating anyone play my list merely sharing a recent experience where i decided to go rogue.

[apple713]

You basically instantly fold to any combo with that list. Not the spot where I want to be if im playing a BUG Depths list.

I appreciate when people try new things and try to innovate, but we already have a super tuned BUG Depths list, we have thousands of matches with it under our belt (and with thousands I really mean thousands) on MTGO, GP and big events. I dont wanna sound harsh or anything, but maybe, in my humble opinion, it should be the starting point if you wanna make some changes.

This is the beauty of dark depths. It is easily adaptable for the expected metagame. He was merely commenting on how the deck played and some of the synergies.


I cut the stifles after the weekend for +1 needle +1 duress +1 exploration. Stifle was cute i had a game against temur delver where i stifled his first fetch then wasted his first land drop and we just kinda looked at each other like stop doing my thing... but as a protection holding up blue mana was not reasonable.

Brainstorm was great, it rarely functioned as a set up card it was always better for rebuilding and ditching excess diamonds. Ive always been underwhelmed with sylvan scrying because the deck is so hungry to make land drops which is why id like to try the single exploration. The bob loam library package was stellar every single game at giving me a critical mass of cards for brainstorming into the last piece. Loam clears the top of your deck pretty nicely and without deathrite floating around is pretty free game 1 i almost always side one out post board.

Ive found stifle to be lack luster as well. As much as I want to to be good it isnt. I keep waiting for the day that the perfect spell will be printer for us. 1 cmc that either counters an activated ability or gives Shround/hexproof in the same card. It would probably be a 4x main deck.

Also, ive found the best number of mox diamonds to be 2 if you dont want to have to get rid of them. Using brainstorm helps but you also dont need mox diamond every game. Exploration is a very solid 1x than steals games. Especially in conjunction with life from the loam. I employ the same strategy as you do with my loams when playing. Its almost a free game 1 but they usually come out g2 unless I havent revealed them. Since I only run 1 it doesnt come up too often and sometimes I can surprise them game 2 since they didnt board in grave hate.

[Jax-]

Hmm I was playing the list you are refering too almost 3 years ago at this point maybe 3 cards have changed since then. The meta has slowed down a lot since then. The current paper enviroment is very hostile to spell based combo and signifigantly more "fair" then mtgo. Im not advocating anyone play my list merely sharing a recent experience where i decided to go rogue.

I don't know if you are referring to your LGS meta with the "very hostile to spell based combo" , because thats hardly true otherwise.
Storm is hands down one of the best decks in the format atm, Grixis Phoenix is another spell based combo that recently started to do well in paper too.

Most of the fair decks are pretty easy matchups, DnT is in low numbers, it spiked after the bans but now it doesn't see that much plays, same for Maverick.
Also the new version of Moon Stompy is slighty easier than before.


@Apple713: I don't like to build my decks with a specific local meta in mind, I like to have a deck tuned for the big events, not my LGS.
Nothing wrong with that, but he didn't say his deck was build with a "fair" metagame in mind (and with fair I mean white based decks, because other fair strategies are pretty soft to Depths).
Also the lack of safekeepers in the 75 looks bad to me if you have a slow and grindy approach in mind.

Stifle is amazing. But its not a 4x card.

[apple713]

Also the lack of safekeepers in the 75 looks bad to me if you have a slow and grindy approach in mind.

Stifle is amazing. But its not a 4x card.

Safekeepers are ok to forego if you are playing something more grindy. The expectation is that life from the loam will sustain you. With an exploration in play you can combo every turn.

Yes I know he only has 1 exploration. Life from the loam will usually still get there though because 20 life from a swords will often buy more than 2 turns.

[Mr. Safety]

DNSolver is back on traditional Turbo and took down a Legacy Challenge:

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=21113&d=340534&f=LE

[adrieng]

Here is my latest list, I tryied 3 garden but four is better, the online meta has a lot of graveards decks so i switched for bog main and leave one maze (second maze was mainly for death and taxes where it shines). Not of this world is better than safekepeer against miracle cause you don't want them to two for one vampire+safejkepper with terminus, it is also better against decks playing chalice @1 with balista such as 12 post drazi and so on and I have no problem with edicts decks.

I have done a league where I was 4-1 beat grixis phenix, uw miracl, uw stoneblade, uw miracle and lost to br rea.

Here is my siddeboard plan against miracle which had success with:

+4 not of this worl
+3 spellbomb

-1 bog
-1 maze
-3 needle
-1 map
-1 scrying

I don't bring the decay in and prefer to scoop to b2b, you have discard as an option and decay is too often a dead card that i prefer to leaving all of them
I keep the gq cause some list plays one off karakas in side.


I have tryied stuff against storm but i prefer the nihil bomb for now [(enters in a lot of matchups - control decks (grixiscontrol-miracle)- graveyards combo decks Br rea storm someway -lands)], the storm macthup is not good but still manageable.


Warping wail was slow against combo decks, but good in others matchups against dark confidant, i prefer cutting them for now



// 60 Maindeck
// 7 Artifact
3 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map

// 4 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage

// 4 Enchantment
4 Sylvan Library

// 4 Instant
4 Crop Rotation

// 27 Land
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Maze of Ith
4 Khalni Garden
4 Blooming Marsh
3 Llanowar Wastes
1 Bojuka Bog

// 14 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sylvan Scrying
2 Duress


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 3 Nihil Spellbomb
// 7 Instant
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 4 Not of This World
// 1 Land
SB: 1 Karakas
// 4 Sorcery
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Maze of Ith



Edit went 4-1 again today beat eldrazi, big drazi, grixis control, lost to ichorid in 3 because he had leyline of sanctity in g3, and beat storm in 3 was lucky g1


I am testing the grixis delver matchup and it is not so good slightly unfavorable contrary to others delver decks especially this list and after side :

it has needle edict blossom side abrade for needle, i think i'll be back with 2 maze maindeck helps a lot here or 1 main one side


// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Creature
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Gurmag Angler
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Young Pyromancer

// 23 Instant
1 Abrade
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Thought Scour

// 19 Land
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

// 6 Sorcery
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize


// 15 Sideboard
// 4 Artifact
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

// 1 Creature
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster

// 2 Enchantment
SB: 2 Bitterblossom

// 8 Instant
SB: 1 Abrade
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction

Edit : went again 4-1 today beat grixis tempo*3 lots once to grixis tempo and beat one ant, had the second maze in side instead of one duress and it was very valuable

edit: 5-0 yesterday and 4-1 today again

[Kwak]

I guess it is official now, if you want good information you don”t come to this site.

[apple713]

I guess it is official now, if you want good information you don”t come to this site.

? did something happen?

[Kwak]

? did something happen?

Yes people posting the most ridiculous decklist and trying sell them as good.

[apple713]

Yes people posting the most ridiculous decklist and trying sell them as good.

Im not sure what lists you are talking about. 90% of the lists posted in the thread are the same except with maybe 12 cards of variance.

If you are referring to Adrien’s list, he’s been a long time poster and made significant contributions over the years. As a result his list, well a version of it, is in the primer.

Please refrain from making snide comments.

[cheerios]

is counterbalance any good against this deck? I'm still learning how to sideboard against this deck using uw miracles. Thanks in advance

[Mr. Safety]

Take this with a grain of salt because I have a below average record against Miracles.

I don't fear Counterbalance playing Depths very much. It can counter the tutors and discard, but with redundant combo pieces I can sometimes combo just by making land drops. Miracles typically gives a lot of time to find the lands. If I Duress/Thoughtseize against miracles my targets are Terminus, Swords to Plowshares, Council's Judgment, Jace the Mind Scupltor, and Snapcaster Mage (in that order.) The uptick of Counterbalance is also why I've stayed loyal to favoring Abrupt Decay over Assassin's Trophy, even to the point of main-decking 2x Decay. Trophy is still great against Miracles but can be hit by countermagic.

[Jax-]

Yes CB is good, we still have plenty of ways to win under it tho, so its not gamebreaking like it could be against Storm. Good Miracles players usually keeps it in vs me.

@Me.Safety: Terminus is definetely not the first discard choice in the matchup if you play it correctly.

[Mr. Safety]

Yes CB is good, we still have plenty of ways to win under it tho, so its not gamebreaking like it could be against Storm. Good Miracles players usually keeps it in vs me.

@Me.Safety: Terminus is definetely not the first discard choice in the matchup if you play it correctly.

Which is likely why I have a losing record to it, lol. What is your priority order against Miracles?

[filln]

Which is likely why I have a losing record to it, lol. What is your priority order against Miracles?

It really depends on the texture of your hand but among the cards you mentioned, I usually take Swords first if I have a faster hand. That answer requires the least setup and only needs one open white mana. If it's a slower hand then Jace is a high pick because that's one of the ways Miracles really takes over the game. An unanswered Jace is really hard for us to deal with. Snapcaster is another high priority pick because of how versatile it is. Terminus and Council's Judgment are pretty far down there in terms of priority. Terminus requires a ton of setup and Council's Judgment is sorcery speed and costs three mana.

[Negator77']

Which is likely why I have a losing record to it, lol. What is your priority order against Miracles?

As mentioned above, it's completely contextual depending on the contents of both players hands. Going off a set priority order is not a very sound strategy imo. Some general examples:

-Plow is a high value target, but if you have protection that you can probably resolve (Crops, Fluster, Safekeeper, etc).. you can often leave it.
-Snapcaster is pretty high value since it can be a plow at times, but can also be a counter/search/whatever. It can also be pretty tame if you have bog setup or surgical in hand post board.
-Council's judgement is pretty low impact unless you are going for a Hexmage kill or have a game breaking permanent that you'd like to protect.
-Jace is a card I rarely take. Having the combo up before Jace can be cast is usually a thing depths can piece together. In this spot, Jace costs a virtual 5+ mana. If you sequence your turns/spells correctly, it can be difficult for Miracles to play Jace and not just risk losing that turn. If for whatever reason your hand is weak or they counter a key tutor and you are going to be slower than turn 4, by all means take it.
-I often end up taking brainstorm/ponder too. Terminus in hand is more or less dead in the mu without Brainstorm or Jace.
-looking for spots where you can double up with surgical post board is also important.

[Mr. Safety]

Great points from much more experienced players. I wasn't literally listing off cards in my head during each discard, but I appreciate and recognize the wisdom you are mentioning: think deeper through lines of play, there aren't really any hard-and-fast rules. Familiar lines of play can be manipulated by how opponents play, so I need to go deeper.

[apple713]

Looking at the top decks in the format our three worst matches are there (they’ve been there for months), miracles, D&T, and ANT. Are we at a point where we need to dedicate more sb slots to these decks? Would more slots really even help?

http://www.tcdecks.net/tierdecks.php?anio=2019&mes=2&format=Legacy

[Negator77']

Looking at the top decks in the format our three worst matches are there (they’ve been there for months), miracles, D&T, and ANT. Are we at a point where we need to dedicate more sb slots to these decks? Would more slots really even help?

http://www.tcdecks.net/tierdecks.php?anio=2019&mes=2&format=Legacy

Miracles is not one of Depths worst mu's imo.. In fact, I think most versions of Depths have been favored over Miracles for a while now. Every version has cards that can make life very difficult for Miracles. Everything from Sylvan Library/Safekeeper to Dark Confidant to Bitterblossom to Choke to Flusterstorm to planeswalkers are options that make things harder from the Miracles side.

I'd take Miracles off that list (of hardest mu's) and replace it with Moon Stompy or Maverick/4c Loam style decks.

If you want to significantly improve vs ANT, the blue splash is the way to go. If you stay in Black/green... lock rocks, hymns, or Mindbreak Traps are probably the best options if you are already on 8+ discard spells.

[solnox]

Miracles be free AF

[Luthier]

Hi all, possible noob question: I've recently picked up the deck (lower land count, Lotus Petal version). Has anyone else experimented with Dark Ritual? The typical acceleration package is 3 Elvish Spirit Guide and 3-4 Lotus Petal, but the deck just didn't feel "right" to me until I stumbled upon a split of 4 Petals and 2 Rituals.
I just felt like black mana was more of a bottleneck, with Hexmage costing BB, and especially if you're playing Hymns. It also adds two mana instead of one, which can help a lot with activating Thespian's Stage a turn earlier, and casting extra discard spells.

Just an example of a couple of the lines a Dark Rit makes possible:

Turn 1 Petal - Ritual - Thoughtseize - Hexmage - Depths
Turn 1 Stage, Turn 2 Petal - Ritual - Thoughtseize - Depths, activate Stage

etc.

[Mr. Safety]

While Dark Ritual allows for faster Hexmage wins Elvish Spirit Guide lets you combo with only Depths/Stage as your lands. Sometimes a win can be pulled off without casting any spells. It's also fairly critical to have green mana available for tutors, of which Dark Ritual cannot cast. Expedition Map, which is generally the slowest of the tutors, should probably be emphasized if you test out Dark Ritual.

[Blastoderm]

Looking at the top decks in the format our three worst matches are there (they’ve been there for months), miracles, D&T, and ANT. Are we at a point where we need to dedicate more sb slots to these decks? Would more slots really even help?

http://www.tcdecks.net/tierdecks.php?anio=2019&mes=2&format=Legacy

Steely Resolve (x2-3) has helped tremendously vs Miracles and DnT.

[theMonster]

Steely Resolve (x2-3) has helped tremendously vs Miracles and DnT.

Steely Resolve has one drawback against DnT: they can set up Flickerwisp + Mother of Runes, making it impossible for you to attack through it if you have a Steely Resolve in play; you can't target Marit Lage with Sejiri Steppe anymore.

[malekith]

Here is my siddeboard plan against miracle which had success with:

+4 not of this worl
+3 spellbomb

-1 bog
-1 maze
-3 needle
-1 map
-1 scrying




I presume that Miracles have changed since last time I played versus that deck. (Sorry because I only play in paper and I have few opportunities to play legacy in my area, so perhaps it can sound newbie)
Why are you siding out the needles (that could be good versus Jace, the Mind Sculptor ) and siding in the Nihil Spellbombs? Are they only because Accumulated Knowledge ?

Thank you

[Mr. Safety]

1) We can play around Jace by making a token EOT, and Jace is the slowest of the answers to a token
2) Outside of Jace, Pithing Needle doesn't have any targets in the miracles deck. I'm not counting fetchlands, it's not realistic to stifle mana in that deck.
3) His list in particular is loaded up on discard, most notably a potent Khalni Garden + Cabal Therapy synergy. This is very effective at dealing with Swords to Plowshares (in hand) and Jace.
4) Snap/Plow is more problematic than Jace, so graveyard hate not only cuts off AK card advantage but can neutralize Snaps at the same time.

That's my take, but I'll let him step in and confirm/add to that. I board out some number of Needles against miracles as well, usually leaving in 1 I think.

EDIT: I did notice he takes out Bog and boards in Spellbombs, which seems weird at first glance. Thinking about it, the tutors need to get combo pieces and Nihil Spellbomb frees them up to do that without needing it for Bog. Bog entering at sorcery speed, unable to reliably answer Snaps, puts Spellbomb higher on the priority list.

[adrieng]

they should enter disenchant/council judgement for your library so needle is not good against jtms, also a resolve library if not answer in the turn is draw 3 while they have all the time of the world to find disenchant/snap for your needle.
You already have vampire to answer jtms, and you can also threaten them with a token EOT if they all tap for jtms meaning jace is not effective until turn 5 4mana +stp by this time either you shld have an answer with vampire, draw a lot of card with library or go for the win with mutliple token/protection, after that the game is lost anyway.

spellbomb is there for anwser snappy/surgical on depth/the new UU snappy surveil 2 it is also good against akknowledge.

An early resolved counterbalance/ B2B is bad news, but i prefer discard to answer that over decay, cause to often you sit with decay in hand and them having no b2b cb but swords in hand and if you don't have a library that's really bad news.

Also waiting for a decay to answer a b2b is closed to a lost game it gives them too many time to set up jtms/mentor ftw, the match is already lost close to samething with balance ; so i suppose discard is the best card here for polyvalence.

bog is taken out cause if you have crop you can anwser their stuff with sejirii step which is better/as good as bog

Also seen the new mtgo meta I haven't played much the three/four last weeks moon stompy is tier one and i scoop to it, and miracle is second which a close matchup (harder for my list than death and taxes).

[malekith]

Thank you very much to Mr. Safety and adrieng for the explanations.

[ntropy]

2) Outside of Jace, Pithing Needle doesn't have any targets in the miracles deck. I'm not counting fetchlands, it's not realistic to stifle mana in that deck.


Is Karakas not seen in stock Miracles anymore? I have it in my list... Obviously Ghost Quarter/Wasteland can help, but it is a concern.

[JackaBo]

Is Karakas not seen in stock Miracles anymore? I have it in my list... Obviously Ghost Quarter/Wasteland can help, but it is a concern.

Many miracle list maximizes basics to fight T1 bloodmoon and leverage b2b. Karakas may come back if monored stompy declines.

[Mr. Safety]

Is there ever a metagame where this deck would want Not of this World again?

[JackaBo]

Is there ever a metagame where this deck would want Not of this World again?

I suppose that correlates to how good Confidant (or the slow version) is.

[malekith]

What about this legendary Advisor? Could be interesting defending our combo pieces? https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190406/362cb36a339051f14e182a4842d27ecc.jpg

Enviado desde mi WAS-LX1A mediante Tapatalk

[malekith]

More about defending lands. I have recently bought an oldie: Pyramids. any chance to use it?

Enviado desde mi WAS-LX1A mediante Tapatalk

[adrieng]

explosion zone will clearly see plays in depth at least a one off maindeck, finally a land that can kill everything from needle to b2b, bridge balance creatures...

https://www.mtgsalvation.com/spoilers/233-war-of-the-spark

i tested a bit the card it is too slow but might have a slot in side

[Mr. Safety]

explosion zone will clearly see plays in depth at least a one off maindeck, finally a land that can kill everything from needle to b2b, bridge balance creatures...

https://www.mtgsalvation.com/spoilers/233-war-of-the-spark

Yeah, i'm definitely going to nab a copy. Not sure if its main or side material as of yet, leaning towards side.

[JackaBo]

Yeah, i'm definitely going to nab a copy. Not sure if its main or side material as of yet, leaning towards side.

I’m not gonna play a single copy. I want my removal to kill
1) blood moon
2) bridge / elephant grass
3) wastelands
4) other lockpieces and hatebears
5) threats to buy time

Thus i will keep playing trophy and decay. It looks strong in lands who already played ee in some lists and can recur it with Loam.

[Negator77']

explosion zone will clearly see plays in depth at least a one off maindeck, finally a land that can kill everything from needle to b2b, bridge balance creatures...

https://www.mtgsalvation.com/spoilers/233-war-of-the-spark


The card is glacially slow. It takes tapping 4 lands (sacrificing zone) to kill a 1 drop or 2... tapping four lands twice + sac to kill 2 drops..etc. What match-ups does that actually help in? What are the best case scenario in those mu's? This is a card that is more likely to be used and help dedicated Life From the Loam decks that take on more of a control role at times and where it can be recurred in my opinion.

As an aside since you specifically mention the card, this card is terrible vs Back to Basics. Unless you are already way ahead and have it out AND powered up to 3 counters before Back to Basics hits that table, it will never be able to untap to be used with 3 counters.

[Mr. Safety]

Well, that settles it. I don't need to waste my time on the card. Well reasoned and clear, this new land doesn't solve any problems or upgrade any tech.

[solnox]

Abrupt Decay/Trophy already solves most of our issues.

[apple713]

explosion zone will clearly see plays in depth at least a one off maindeck, finally a land that can kill everything from needle to b2b, bridge balance creatures...

https://www.mtgsalvation.com/spoilers/233-war-of-the-spark

This is pretty slow. I think the best case scenario is to crop rotation it into play and add two counters EOT and then pop it next turn. It's not really a land you ever want to draw because it's another colorless land. It does nothing against combo decks and doens't really help against Blood Moon decks / D&T. Too slow against D&T with their wastelands and flickerwisps. This probably falls into the same category as pernicious deed. Should see play as it has good applications but it's too slow for what we want.

I think the best part about it is that it can't be countered so it helps against control matches but I think it's not great in other matches.

[Mr. Safety]

Has anyone been testing this with the London mulligan? I've done a few goldfish games and it definitely feels better after a mulligan. If the London mulligan goes live for legacy i think i'll end up either cutting dark confidant or sideboarding some number.

I'm not looking to open a can of worms in the mulligan in general, just how it might affect this deck in particular.

[Negator77']

Has anyone been testing this with the London mulligan? I've done a few goldfish games and it definitely feels better after a mulligan. If the London mulligan goes live for legacy i think i'll end up either cutting dark confidant or sideboarding some number.

I'm not looking to open a can of worms in the mulligan in general, just how it might affect this deck in particular.

I'm up about 6% over my average win rate with the London mulligan. Its a very small sample size, but I think the rule is good for depths (full disclosure, I dislike it personally for the format). Two pieces of it specifically are very good for Depths. The first is the scry rule going away makes turn 1 discard much better since opponents don't get to hide powerful cards on top. Choosing the best 6 out of 7 (or 5 out of 7, etc) leaves all of their cards vulnerable to discard. A rule that encourages aggressive mulligans plays to the advantage of discard spells generally as well. The second is A + B combo decks that aren't vulnerable to crazy hate cards like Leyline feel great. Depths easily can assemble a devastating 5 card hand. Having three or more looks at 7 cards makes it very likely that you will start just about every game with a path to the combo plus a disruption piece.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm up about 6% over my average win rate with the London mulligan. Its a very small sample size, but I think the rule is good for depths (full disclosure, I dislike it personally for the format). Two pieces of it specifically are very good for Depths. The first is the scry rule going away makes turn 1 discard much better since opponents don't get to hide powerful cards on top. Choosing the best 6 out of 7 (or 5 out of 7, etc) leaves all of their cards vulnerable to discard. A rule that encourages aggressive mulligans plays to the advantage of discard spells generally as well. The second is A + B combo decks that aren't vulnerable to crazy hate cards like Leyline feel great. Depths easily can assemble a devastating 5 card hand. Having three or more looks at 7 cards makes it very likely that you will start just about every game with a path to the combo plus a disruption piece.

I agree on both points. I was thinking it makes this deck better, and you are confirming it with actual data. I also generally dislike the change for the format as a whole, especially considering the incentive to play Moon Stompy gets more enticing with more consistent t1 Chalice/Moon games. (Possibly our worst matchup?)

If the rule goes live, I think the numbers get a little harder to nail down for discard and tutors. I've been on 7 discard for a while, but given the nature of opponent's having more incentive to mulligan I think I'd want 8 for maximum disruption. I've also been on 7 tutors forever (4 CR/3 Scrying) but I think I might want to shave that down. With more opportunities to mulligan into a combo + disruption with a 5-6 card hand I think the 'slower' route of tutoring for combo pieces becomes a little less important. All theoretical of course, I'm just spitballing here. I'm curious if any ratios really need to change, but it feels like we can get a little greedier, squeezing utility disruption into another 1-2 slots maindeck because it's a little easier to mull into a great hand.

In particular, I'm wondering if Abrupt Decay/Assassin's Trophy are maindeck cards now that Moon Stompy is more dangerous, probably one of our worst matchups. Same with combo decks that are slightly faster, they are a little more consistent now as well (hence going back to 8 discard.)

Thoughts anyone? Can we be a little 'looser' with the maindeck with a more consistent mulligan available or am I nuts?

[Negator77']

If anyone is interested, I finally upgraded my ancient setup enough to handle it and started streaming BUG Depths once a week at twitch.tv/negator77. The last two weeks vods are up at https://www.twitch.tv/negator77/videos. The one from last week was part BUG and part meme (Slow Depths with a Pack Rat SB plan league with DNSolver). This week was six BUG league matches with Miracles master Lawrence Harmon.

[silasteamtop]

sorry for my english, and for the post if it is repeated. I wonder if there is any link to the discord?

[Negator77']

sorry for my english, and for the post if it is repeated. I wonder if there is any link to the discord?

https://discord.gg/t8sj4B

There is a Depths section in the Lands discord

[adrieng]

force of vigor might see play in side for moon stompy/artifacts decks.
You don't even need green to cast it ! Might take the decay slot but not sure yet, testing will tell !

[Mr. Safety]

force of vigor might see play in side for moon stompy/artifacts decks.
You don't even need green to cast it ! Might take the decay slot but not sure yet, testing will tell !

I like it quite a bit, especially versions committed to a full set of Elvish Spirit Guides.

EDIT: the new Engineered Plague with legs is also a strong card, possibly replacing some number of Dread of Night or wipers like Toxic Deluge for the D&T matchup. Collateral damage to Elves, Merfolk, TNN, and Pyromancer tokens.

[Mr. Safety]

There is a 1K coming up on 6/15 and I think I'm bringing Turbo Depths. I play maindeck Abrupt Decay x2 so I have room in my sideboard for Force of Vigor, probably 2-3 copies. I don't know if it will be available by then, but if it is I will be doing my damndest to get them for that tournament. I'm not completely sold on Plague Engineer yet, I'll still likely play with some number of Toxic Deluge/Golgari Charm in the sideboard.

One thing I know for sure: I want Sylvan Library maindeck. In the last tournament I went 3-3 and I boarded in Library in almost every post-board game. It does so much for the deck that I think it's worth maindeck slots. I am trimming an ESG (down to 3) and a Sylvan Scrying (down to 2) to make room for it.

[malekith]

Hello, I'm building a non-turbo decklists (without ESG and Petals but playing DMoxes and Bobs).

What is your opinion about to incorporate these 4CLoam tools to our Dark Depths deck?

I would like to find Primer or advices about how to pilot this variant.

Thanks.

[lavafrogg]

Hello, I'm building a non-turbo decklists (without ESG and Petals but playing DMoxes and Bobs).

What is your opinion about to incorporate these 4CLoam tools to our Dark Depths deck?

I would like to find Primer or advices about how to pilot this variant.

Thanks.

The variants of Depths decks are all meta calls at this point, which means all of the information in this thread is still super relevant for the most part. With the addition of the "4 color Loam" tools you are switching your disruption from Pithing Needle to Wasteland which, depending on your meta could be a good thing or a bad thing.

Honestly most of the Gx decks are on a Spectrum and imho goes from Maverick > Aggro Loam > Lands > Depths and each list is only a few steps from the next list down the line. If you incorporate too much of the "4 Color loam tools" you risk playing a worse version of either deck. One of my favorite aspects of the Depths decks is that they were always able to play a high number of basics, which is a must in most meta's.

I am also not exactly sure what "tools" you are looking to incorporate into your Dark Depths list but a spectrum of cards for current depths lists

Turbo - ESG/Lotus Petal - Fastest Kill, in meta's with lots of combo disruption is discard and Pithing needle in addition to CR Package.

Medium - ESG/Lotus Petal + Dark Confidant - in meta's where you need to respect combo but still want a grind/plan b with confidant. Great in the mirror. Disruption is same as turbo with needles/discard/CR - This build is the most similar to the DRS lists.

Slow- Mox Diamonds + Dark Confidant - this is the most variable build. Disruption is Wasteland and discard can be hymn or just 1cc. The most testing is currently in this realm since the DRS banning. Can also see blue splash for BS/Stifle. This has been the most successful and played variant since the Banning, that being said, the list is in no way finished at this point.

What are you looking for in addition?

[Mr. Safety]

Medium - ESG/Lotus Petal + Dark Confidant - in meta's where you need to respect combo but still want a grind/plan b with confidant. Great in the mirror. Disruption is same as turbo with needles/discard/CR - This build is the most similar to the DRS lists.

@Malekith:

This is the version I use at my LGS. I may use it this coming weekend for a 1K, but I might also play Punishing Maverick. If I play it I'll post a list and results if anyone is interested. Can confirm it is favored in the mirror by quite a bit.

[Mr. Safety]

Chris Kapica made top 8 at a recent event in California with this list:

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=22219&d=350504&f=LE

I think it's cool he had Not of this World in his maindeck, I've been thinking about trying that again as well.

[theMonster]

Chris Kapica made top 8 at a recent event in California with this list:

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=22219&d=350504&f=LE

I think it's cool he had Not of this World in his maindeck, I've been thinking about trying that again as well.

This was me, so feel free to ask any questions about the list! Beat BR Reanimator, Sneak 'n' Show x2, and Moon Stompy in the Swiss, double drew into top8, then beat Mono U Painter in the quarters and punted badly against Food Chain in the semis (my opponent was also an excellent pilot).

- Not of this World is great when you're trying to go fast. Investing a mana into Safekeeper isn't always an option in the early turns, so you get to blow out people who assume you're jamming with your guard down. It's also an easy card to side out when you know your opponent isn't interacting with you on that axis or if you can't do anything about their interaction (e.g.: Wipe Away from Sneak 'n' Show).
- Don't love Library right now, but I couldn't think of something better in the heat of the moment. Too many maindeck Narsets around to risk it, in my opinion. Plus with the London mulligan approaching, I don't think we need nearly as many tutors. That slot will be replaced by some kind of flex card to be determined.
- Rancor looks goofy and meme-worthy in the sideboard, but it's basically a second Steppe against flying blockers. Locally people have been trying out cards like Sai, Master Thopterist (which I was paired against in the quarterfinals), and Strix and Bitterblossom are generally around. So I figure Rancor is a card you can use to punch through dudes. I've slapped it onto a Hexmage before, too; a 4/1 first striking trampler hasn't been embarrassing, at least. Meta call mostly -- isn't necessary.

I'm sure this list isn't optimized: the one Safekeeper maindeck is almost certainly wrong, and I should obviously be playing a third Bayou over the Blooming Marsh. I'll also probably move back to 4 Duress instead of the 3/1 split with IoK. I'll be testing the London mulligan and updating my list.

[Mr. Safety]

This was me, so feel free to ask any questions about the list! Beat BR Reanimator, Sneak 'n' Show x2, and Moon Stompy in the Swiss, double drew into top8, then beat Mono U Painter in the quarters and punted badly against Food Chain in the semis (my opponent was also an excellent pilot).

- Not of this World is great when you're trying to go fast. Investing a mana into Safekeeper isn't always an option in the early turns, so you get to blow out people who assume you're jamming with your guard down. It's also an easy card to side out when you know your opponent isn't interacting with you on that axis or if you can't do anything about their interaction (e.g.: Wipe Away from Sneak 'n' Show).
- Don't love Library right now, but I couldn't think of something better in the heat of the moment. Too many maindeck Narsets around to risk it, in my opinion. Plus with the London mulligan approaching, I don't think we need nearly as many tutors. That slot will be replaced by some kind of flex card to be determined.
- Rancor looks goofy and meme-worthy in the sideboard, but it's basically a second Steppe against flying blockers. Locally people have been trying out cards like Sai, Master Thopterist (which I was paired against in the quarterfinals), and Strix and Bitterblossom are generally around. So I figure Rancor is a card you can use to punch through dudes. I've slapped it onto a Hexmage before, too; a 4/1 first striking trampler hasn't been embarrassing, at least. Meta call mostly -- isn't necessary.

I'm sure this list isn't optimized: the one Safekeeper maindeck is almost certainly wrong, and I should obviously be playing a third Bayou over the Blooming Marsh. I'll also probably move back to 4 Duress instead of the 3/1 split with IoK. I'll be testing the London mulligan and updating my list.

I played in a 1K this weekend and I really wanted to squeeze in a Rancor but I ended up trying 3x Force of Vigor in the sideboard so I didn't have room. It would definitely have been relevant as I faced some threats where it could have really done some work (Bitterblossom would have been much less troublesome for sure.) A local player that has had good success with the deck suggested it as card #61, but I'm not a fan of that. Five rounds, I went 3-2 beating Infect, Death and Taxes, and UB Death's Shadow. I lost to Moon Stompy and UR Delver. In particular I wanted the Force of Vigors for the Stompy lists.

Some questions, if you don't mind:
1) I'm curious about the 3/3 split on ESG/Petals, especially where it seems like you wanted speed (from your above post.)
2) I see some unique land decisions, like 4 Urborgs main and an extra Bog in the sideboard. How necessary was the 2nd Bog? I see Reanimator was a factor, was there any other decks to consider?

[theMonster]

1) I'm curious about the 3/3 split on ESG/Petals, especially where it seems like you wanted speed (from your above post.)
2) I see some unique land decisions, like 4 Urborgs main and an extra Bog in the sideboard. How necessary was the 2nd Bog? I see Reanimator was a factor, was there any other decks to consider?

Generally I want to see 1-2 pieces of acceleration a game, especially game 1, so I wanted to see if replacing the seventh piece of fast mana with the 24th land would make a noticeable difference. Deck felt fine, but it was obviously a small sample size. I could see cutting the Library or the 24th land (Blooming Marsh/Bayou #3) for the seventh piece of fast mana.

Urborg leads to my fastest kills, so I always want to see it in my opener. With the London mulligan, you’ll be able to put redundant copies on the bottom of your library, to boot. The second Bog is a concession to the preponderance of Dredge decks locally. Most people play the third Surgical, but I’ve been happy with the extra Bog. Necessary? Depends on how you want your graveyard matchups to be. I tend to play more graveyard hate than most, hence my hedge with a card like Return to Nature (which I drew against Reanimator in game 2, and it was relevant — certainly not as good as a third Surgical for the matchup, but I liked the flexibility of having 3.5ish pieces of additional grave hate and six pieces of artifact/enchantment removal in my sideboard).

[Mr. Safety]

Generally I want to see 1-2 pieces of acceleration a game, especially game 1, so I wanted to see if replacing the seventh piece of fast mana with the 24th land would make a noticeable difference. Deck felt fine, but it was obviously a small sample size. I could see cutting the Library or the 24th land (Blooming Marsh/Bayou #3) for the seventh piece of fast mana.

Urborg leads to my fastest kills, so I always want to see it in my opener. With the London mulligan, you’ll be able to put redundant copies on the bottom of your library, to boot. The second Bog is a concession to the preponderance of Dredge decks locally. Most people play the third Surgical, but I’ve been happy with the extra Bog. Necessary? Depends on how you want your graveyard matchups to be. I tend to play more graveyard hate than most, hence my hedge with a card like Return to Nature (which I drew against Reanimator in game 2, and it was relevant — certainly not as good as a third Surgical for the matchup, but I liked the flexibility of having 3.5ish pieces of additional grave hate and six pieces of artifact/enchantment removal in my sideboard).

Thanks for that! I've been playing Dark Confidant/Library in the maindeck lately but with Narset the Libraries have gone to the sideboard. Honestly, Narset might make Library a liability if Miracles continues to play 2(+) copies. That was the primary matchup that Library was good against. I think I'll end up cutting the Libraries for Dark Confidants in the sideboard and that gives me room to jam Not of this World. I'm pretty excited, I want that card to be good. Blowouts are fun. :smile:

I think you're spot-on with the London Mulligan and the 4th Urborg, I really appreciate that insight.

[DNSolver]

Thanks for that! I've been playing Dark Confidant/Library in the maindeck lately but with Narset the Libraries have gone to the sideboard. Honestly, Narset might make Library a liability if Miracles continues to play 2(+) copies. That was the primary matchup that Library was good against. I think I'll end up cutting the Libraries for Dark Confidants in the sideboard and that gives me room to jam Not of this World. I'm pretty excited, I want that card to be good. Blowouts are fun. :smile:

I think you're spot-on with the London Mulligan and the 4th Urborg, I really appreciate that insight.

How many 7 drop flips with Bob will you tolerate before rethinking this?

[Mr. Safety]

How many 7 drop flips with Bob will you tolerate before rethinking this?


I think I'll end up cutting the Libraries for Dark Confidants in the sideboard and that gives me room to jam Not of this World.

I would board out NotW when boarding in Bobs, 3-for-3 swap.

[Di]

I would board out NotW when boarding in Bobs, 3-for-3 swap.

Sounds like a pretty curious strategy against any matchup that you’d want both cards, such as Miracles or Lands.

[Mr. Safety]

Sounds like a pretty curious strategy against any matchup that you’d want both cards, such as Miracles or Lands.

I don't have any experience with Not of this World as of yet. I know Confidant is great against Miracles, I'm not sure I would board it in against Lands. I haven't played the matchup enough to know. I know fundamentally I wouldn't play both at the same time, blind flipping a 7 drop is way too big of a liability. If you have any helpful insight for how to approach it, that would be awesome. I haven't seen Not of this World in lists for a long time but Chris Kapica just top8-ed an event with it x3 in the maindeck. I thought it would make good discussion fodder.

The conundrum is that Sylvan Library is blanked by Narset now, and the decks playing Narset are the same ones I would want to board in Sylvan Library. Maybe I'm wrong, I've said some dumb stuff before, but Dark Confidant seems better against the blue decks than Not of this World.

[theMonster]

I don't have any experience with Not of this World as of yet. I know Confidant is great against Miracles, I'm not sure I would board it in against Lands. I haven't played the matchup enough to know. I know fundamentally I wouldn't play both at the same time, blind flipping a 7 drop is way too big of a liability. If you have any helpful insight for how to approach it, that would be awesome. I haven't seen Not of this World in lists for a long time but Chris Kapica just top8-ed an event with it x3 in the maindeck. I thought it would make good discussion fodder.

The conundrum is that Sylvan Library is blanked by Narset now, and the decks playing Narset are the same ones I would want to board in Sylvan Library. Maybe I'm wrong, I've said some dumb stuff before, but Dark Confidant seems better against the blue decks than Not of this World.

Not of this World stops activations of Karakas and Maze of Ith, so I would definitely have it in against Lands. What sometimes happens in the matchup is you both make Marit Lage, and you need to Steppe past theirs. Not of this World is a card they can’t interact with, unlike Safekeeper which they can P-Fire if you play it too early. I would not run Bob and Not of this World in the same list.

Narset certainly makes Library awkward sometimes, especially game 1. If you have it turn 1, though, you can still get significant value out of the card. Plus they’ve gotta keep a Narset hand, and you can put them in situations where they can’t afford to tap out on turn 3 because you’re presenting a potential 20/20.

Bob doesn’t match up well against cards like Arcanist, and drawing cards doesn’t matter when you’re getting Latticed early. He’s good against Miracles if you’re playing a significant number of Safekeepers to protect him (3+).

[Mr. Safety]

Well, I appreciate all the comments. I will try NotW in the main, Library side, no Bobs. If that doesn't work I'll just go back to Bobs main, Library side, no copies of NotW.

[malekith]

Bhttps://img.scryfall.com/cards/large/front/3/9/39c431d7-d94b-46c4-bb89-f3db56214ab4.jpg?1561012019

It looks like interesting...

[Mr. Safety]

I think the Mox Diamond lists might want to try this out, but straight Turbo lists with ESG/Petals probably don't want it. Sylvan Scrying and Into the North are both more efficient mana-wise. It's definitely an interesting card, it would be exciting to get new tech.

[adrieng]

I am testing elvish reclaimer in my list and it looks really good, it is therapy fooder + crop + safekeeper in just one card man !

EDIT :

tested whitout library and was not happy whith this choice so back to library cutting scrying


What's the opinin of people on buntu's last reckoning ? or plague engineere might be a better idea don't know, just testing stuff might not be optimal,
buntu looks good against eldrazi, aggro loam, maverick death and taxes elf, some tempo decks. What i know for sure is more than 2 deluge is not good you never want to cast 2 in a grindy game because of life loss issue most of the time




// 60 Maindeck
// 9 Artifact
3 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map
2 Nihil Spellbomb

// 8 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Reclaimer

// 4 Enchantment
4 Sylvan Library

// 4 Instant
4 Crop Rotation

// 25 Land
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Khalni Garden
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith

// 10 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb

// 6 Instant
SB: 4 Force of Vigor
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Maze of Ith

// 6 Sorcery
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Bontu's Last Reckoning
SB: 2 Duress

[adrieng]

This deck destroys the format and might result with a ban trust man :


// 60 Maindeck
// 22 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Reclaimer
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Satyr Wayfinder
2 Nimble Mongoose

// 4 Instant
4 Crop Rotation

// 24 Land
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Khalni Garden
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Bojuka Bog

// 10 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Gather the Pack


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 3 Pithing Needle

// 5 Creature
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Nimble Mongoose

// 4 Instant
SB: 4 Force of Vigor

// 3 Sorcery
SB: 3 Duress

[Darkgobs]

This deck destroys the format and might result with a ban trust man :


// 60 Maindeck
// 22 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Reclaimer
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Satyr Wayfinder
2 Nimble Mongoose

// 4 Instant
4 Crop Rotation

// 24 Land
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Khalni Garden
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Bojuka Bog

// 10 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Gather the Pack


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 3 Pithing Needle

// 5 Creature
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Nimble Mongoose

// 4 Instant
SB: 4 Force of Vigor

// 3 Sorcery
SB: 3 Duress



Wow, that looks sweet!
Could you maybe tell us more about the up- and downsides of this list in comparison to our "classic" lists?

This looks like a Aggro-Combo-ish list or something. I like that idea.

[apple713]

This deck destroys the format and might result with a ban trust man :



Is this a new brew of yours or did it get a top finish somewhere?

Can you give us some more details on what makes it so awesome?

Also, i feel like this deck wants some number of life from the loam.

[adrieng]

yeah it is brew, it is only vulenarble to karakas and wastelock that's why there is needle in side.

you have multiple angle of attack, you have hogaak which can be put into play as soosn as turn 2, and consitently on turn 3.

you can go for marit lage quite easily thanks to classic package with addition of the elf.

The elf is often a 3/4 so it can go beatdown, you can also attack with goose which is there to fight surgical providing additonal threat can sneak the hogaak and is not vulenrable to removals, you might want safekeeper instead but not sure.

Gather the pack can make some card advantage while searcing for hogaak, it is better than grisly salvage mostly because of the casting cost and it can provide CA.

you have the cabal therapy which provides CA and can be found with stuff that makes card to graveyard.

The macabre in side might be better than surgical to protect yourself from opposing surgical (uncounterable but don't bring the 4 you have lot of stuff against surgical) they can be found with gather the pack,

they can be hardcast.

Force of vigor is a must have chalice/leyline/moon.

Duress are there for combo decks.

[Mr. Safety]

I really like Elvish Reclaimer as an option; it's essentially an Expedition Map as far as mana cost goes (3 mana tutor) that can also be a 3/4 beatstick. Its as close to Deathrite Shaman for this deck as I could hope for, and I loved DRS in Turbo Depths. I am thinking it has to replace some number of Map/Sylvan Scrying, but that should be ok. I'll probably try it with Green Sun's Zenith, which can grab Elvish Reclaimer, Sylvan Safekeeper, and possibly Ramunup Excavater post-board. Getting the green count higher for Force of Vigor sounds smart, too.

[adrieng]

ok did some leagues 3-2 4-1 lost to 2 aggro loam decks 0-2 and 1-2 in first league and to one miracle 1-2 in second.

Beat rug delver, echo stuff, BUG tempo in first league ; second league rug delver ur delver grixis control and aluren

third league in progress 2-3 beat grixis control ur delver and lost 1-2 to miracle goose would have been safekeeper i would still have won here again

lost then to aluren and rug delver because of the manabase no green for lot of turn

the mana base is quite bad also really i have been too greedy and punished for that -2 goose +2 llanowar waste/nurturing peatland

So after changes :



// 60 Maindeck
// 22 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Reclaimer
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Satyr Wayfinder

// 4 Instant
4 Crop Rotation

// 27 Land
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Khalni Garden
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
3 Llanowar Wastes
1 Bojuka Bog

// 10 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Gather the Pack


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 2 Pithing Needle

// 5 Creature
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Sylvan Safekeeper

// 4 Instant
SB: 4 Force of Vigor

// 3 Sorcery
SB: 3 Duress

[apple713]

@adrieng - does that version help any of the matchups? It seems like the deck substituted efficient land searchers like sylvan scrying for a win con that is just as weak to removal as our existing win con.

Dont get me wrong, I like the innovation, but is it just another way to build the deck or do you expect it to be superior to the other versions?

Other notes


Mox diamond helps with mana fixing and works with loam.
Mox + loam + fetchland can enable a t2 hogaak also.
Fetchlands can be used to tutor up a dryad arbor which can be used to convoke hogaak and summon sickness is not an issue.

[Mr. Safety]

Don't get me wrong, I love hybrid decks, but this isn't a compact graveyard strategy like Depths Reanimator pulls off. It needs an engine to enable it, one that takes too many slots away from the linear Depths plan (in my humble opinion.) I like trying new tech (Elvish Reclaimer) but I don't think you can both incorporate enough engine cards for Hogaak and still have enough percentage left over to make a 20/20 reliably.

I think the natural place to make room for Reclaimer is in the Expedition Map/Sylvan Scrying slots. It accomplishes the same goal, but with the alternative for fair beats. The creatures in the deck are fairly lackluster as beaters but Reclaimer is legitimate in the late game as a threat that lives through Lightning Bolt and beats for 3. Having more ways to have instant speed tutor applications is very appealing as well, considering it can tutor up Bog/Karakas/Ghost Quarter as early as turn 2. EDIT: Entering tapped is an issue with Karakas/GQ, but Bog is unaffected.

Rough list for testing:

4x Vampire Hexmage
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
3x Dark Confidant
2x Elvish Reclaimer
2x Sylvan Safekeeper

4x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
3x Pithing Needle
4x Lotus Petal
4x Crop Rotation
2x Sylvan Scrying
2x Abrupt Decay

4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian's Stage
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Bayou
1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Bojuka Bog
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard
2x Sylvan Library
3x Force of Vigor
2x Rite of Consumption
1x Karakas
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Pithing Needle
2x Surgical Extraction

[adrieng]

8/8 trample turn 2 with cabal backup is pretty frequent,

or turn 3 20/20+8/8



EDIT previous list : in testing nurturing peatland is a better card than llanowar waste and winding way is better than pack



// 60 Maindeck
// 20 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Reclaimer
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Satyr Wayfinder

// 4 Instant
4 Crop Rotation

// 26 Land
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Khalni Garden
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Nurturing Peatland

// 10 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Winding Way


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 2 Pithing Needle

// 6 Creature
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Sylvan Safekeeper

// 4 Instant
SB: 4 Force of Vigor

// 3 Sorcery
SB: 3 Duress



4-1 on league this morning beat rug delver, strom (briant cook),rug delver again ,lost to death and taxes then beat a 4c control deck with wren jtms goyf strix

followed by a 5-0 beat rug delver *3 the new burg delver and oops all

Also winding way might be a better option than gather the pack

[Mr. Safety]

Man this deck is tier one it destroys everything just test it :

the deck is clearly superior to previous builds there is no single doubt

whathever you think we don't care you didn't test stuff, mox diamond and lftl doesn't belong in my list it is too slow. People take time to adjust and when there is new thing broken they don't see the thing right now.

8/8 trample turn 2 with cabal backup is pretty frequent,

or turn 3 20/20+8/8



// 60 Maindeck
// 20 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Reclaimer
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Satyr Wayfinder

// 4 Instant
4 Crop Rotation

// 26 Land
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Khalni Garden
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
3 Llanowar Wastes
1 Bojuka Bog

// 10 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Gather the Pack


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 2 Pithing Needle

// 6 Creature
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Sylvan Safekeeper

// 4 Instant
SB: 4 Force of Vigor

// 3 Sorcery
SB: 3 Duress



EDIT: Please, walk me through some games, I don't see it.

[Darkgobs]

Walk me through some games, I don't see it.

I personally always lack some time to play MtG in general and to test new stuff, so I am not the right person to say it ... but ... in this case maybe you should just grab his list and test it by yourself?

[malekith]

Trying to understand the adrien's DL...


It is an hybrid deck but an interesting hybrid…

As far as I understand, for T2 Hogaak, you need cast at T1 and T2 Sticher’s Supplier in order to have two B/G creatures to convoke and the 6 cards in the GY 5 to delve and Hogaak.
But even if you mulligan to have the 2 Stichers and B producing land you will depend on LUCK to have Hogaak in the 6 GY cards. Otherwise, you will have another way to do it, if you draw Hogaak and Therapy, you can Therapy yourself to entomb the Avatar. So, 1 B producing land+ 2 Stichers + Therapy + Hogaak will be the perfect 5... it is difficult even with London Mulligan, but possible :tongue:
I can see how you can get advantage also with a combination of Sticher and Reclaimer if you get more than 3 lands in the GY, but since no Mox Diamonds and no cycling lands you will also depend on LUCK to have lands on GY before you start to tutor combo pieces with the Elf’s crop rotation effect.
With more turns, you will cast synergic spells (Gather the Pack...) and creatures that put cards in the GY and can be used for convoke…so, I understand , doing Hogaak wincon more probable than Marit Lage. but anyway you always will have the B-Plan tutoring the lands.

So it is a less-reliable combo deck that can fight very hard if go to midrange. Isn't it?

[Mr. Safety]

I personally always lack some time to play MtG in general and to test new stuff, so I am not the right person to say it ... but ... in this case maybe you should just grab his list and test it by yourself?

I may be taking this too seriously, but whatever, here goes: I'm not the one with the burden of proof. He's making a claim ("this [untested] deck is busted, tier 1"). If he wants to make that claim, he can try and convince me. Otherwise, I've stated my intentions of testing Elvish Reclaimer. With that I certainly will test and report back.

Specifically, I don't know how he's getting t2 Hogaaks.

[adrieng]

went 4-1 and 5-0 today with this list on mtgo league, so yeah the deck is good man.

You can even have turn 2 hogaak + marit lage turn one stitcher 3 card in grave turn two crop fetch urborg/depth 5 cards in grave vampire make 20/20 7 cards in grave cast hogaak with marit lage +stitcher.

winding way might be a better option than pack, pack is clearly the worst slot in the deck

also nurturing peatland might be the way to go

hogaak doesn't need to be in grave to be cast you don't need to therapy yourself you can cast it from hand

it has way better late game classic depth or slow depth, with lot of therapies to be cast to protect stuff hogaak beatdown plan 3/4 beatdown plan ; the deck is better in all way

only weakness is karakas cause you have only one off ghost quarter main and no needle.

EDIT :

did a third league went 4-1 beat storm rug delver *2 miracle and lost to lands (yeah karakas stuff is hard to beat :()


EDIT :

5-0 again this morning for my first league beat rug delver 2-0, br rea 2-1, 4 c delver 2-0, ur delver 2-0 and death and taxe 2-1

[Mr. Safety]

I got a set of Reclaimer, testing will commence. I don't know if some amount of Loam/crucible/excavator will be needed with the extra land sacrifices that will be made.

[DNSolver]

I saw some of you guys made it to my stream today. Didn't advertise here because I was playing adrieng's deck which is being discussed more at length in the New and Developmental Decks forum. Check out my VOD at twitch.tv/dnsolver if you missed my top 4 finish with Hogaak Depths.

[Slacker1348]

I played DNS' list at my legacy event this week to 3-0

4 Dark Depths
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Wasteland
3 Khalni Garden
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Elvish Reclaimer
3 Satyr Wayfinder

3 Mox Diamond

4 Crop Rotation

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress

SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 3 Sylvan Safekeeper
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Damping Sphere
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Assassin's Trophy

2-0 VS bw pox
2-1 VS storm
2-0 VS lands

I played a slightly different sideboard, and had my own concerns about the deck on paper.

1st, i saw the deck on paper, and instantly thought it was a joke. It's better than reanimator depths in having a plan b. Sometimes you get your opponent on the wrong piece of hate. And it's got serious gas.

2nd, I thought the lack of loam in a deck like this was a mistake, but after playing it as is, if we were loaming, we would've been losing. Loam isn't where we want to be here tbh. Maybe in the sideboard. Also, in games 2/3, being able to delve away your hit depths/stage to avoid surgical is a real thing.

My match ups were pretty interesting, with Hogaak winning more of my games than Marit Lage. The creature beat down is a much more real plan b. I think those of you who haven't actually played the deck, should do so before commenting.

I'm not entirely sold on mox tbh, there were a few corner cases where it let me cast spells. It fuels delve a little bit, but honestly, I missed the protection/proactiveness of pithing needle. I never got to swing with a 3/4 elf, or use his ability, he mostly just cast hogaak, but I imagine him doing work in the mid, late game. Coming into play tapped kinda sucks, but it shouldnt slow us down too much. However, our opponents were dead before any of that mattered anyways.

The only game I lost was a sick mull to 5 T1 storm kill. Where if he didn't go off, I had him with the t2 Marit lage.

Tl;dr
Hogaak deck is good. Is it better? Idk yet. Is it fun? Oh yeah.

[Mr. Safety]

I just got my Reclaimers in the mail, looking forward to testing it out. Has anyone been testing it in a traditional (non-Hogaak) list?

[PeterSouth]

Hey Hivemind, haven't been real interested in Turbo Depths lately, but Scheming Symmetry piqued my interest again -> checking to see if anyone been experimenting with it.

https://scryfall.com/card/m20/113/scheming-symmetry

Seems to me this card would be pretty sharp as a one mana tutor finding combo piece, pithing needle, or thoughtseize.

If you turn one scheming symmetry, I dunno if opponent would force of will it straightaway, but then they are either looking for wasteland or swords to plowshares. If they grab wasteland they may have had one in hand or were gonna draw it anyway and now have to play it to prevent you from going off the next turn and you can just needle it. If they grab plowshare, you can just thoughtseize, safekeeper, or therapy it/them away.

Later in the game, you would probably be scheming for card like needle, cabal therapy, life from the loam, decay, trophy, or maybe a good sideboard card.

Below is my old list. I am currently testing replacing 3 assassin trophy with 3 scheming symmetry and replacing thoughtseize with cabal therapy. I just noticed that trophy actually nullifies the top deck on their end, dunno if any other cards can do similar. On my end ancient stirrings can immediately get the tutor to hand.

4x Ancient Stirrings
4x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Crop Rotation
4x Dark Depths
4x Expedition Map
1x Forest
4x Lotus Petal
4x Pithing Needle
4x assassin's trophy
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Swamp
4x Sylvan Scrying
4x Thespian's Stage
4x Thoughtseize
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Vampire Hexmage
4x Verdant Catacombs

Kinda an edge case also, but one of the things that disappointed me in the deck was lack of cantrip suite and sometimes getting dorked on green mana - symmetry could also be used to grab green land in a bind.

[Mr. Safety]

Hey Hivemind, haven't been real interested in Turbo Depths lately, but Scheming Symmetry piqued my interest again -> checking to see if anyone been experimenting with it.

https://scryfall.com/card/m20/113/scheming-symmetry

Seems to me this card would be pretty sharp as a one mana tutor finding combo piece, pithing needle, or thoughtseize.

If you turn one scheming symmetry, I dunno if opponent would force of will it straightaway, but then they are either looking for wasteland or swords to plowshares. If they grab wasteland they may have had one in hand or were gonna draw it anyway and now have to play it to prevent you from going off the next turn and you can just needle it. If they grab plowshare, you can just thoughtseize, safekeeper, or therapy it/them away.

Later in the game, you would probably be scheming for card like needle, cabal therapy, life from the loam, decay, trophy, or maybe a good sideboard card.

Below is my old list. I am currently testing replacing 3 assassin trophy with 3 scheming symmetry and replacing thoughtseize with cabal therapy. I just noticed that trophy actually nullifies the top deck on their end, dunno if any other cards can do similar. On my end ancient stirrings can immediately get the tutor to hand.

4x Ancient Stirrings
4x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Crop Rotation
4x Dark Depths
4x Expedition Map
1x Forest
4x Lotus Petal
4x Pithing Needle
4x assassin's trophy
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Swamp
4x Sylvan Scrying
4x Thespian's Stage
4x Thoughtseize
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Vampire Hexmage
4x Verdant Catacombs

Kinda an edge case also, but one of the things that disappointed me in the deck was lack of cantrip suite and sometimes getting dorked on green mana - symmetry could also be used to grab green land in a bind.

I like that Scheming Symmetry is a tutor for non-land cards; the deck already has Demonic Tutors for lands, but not for protection/Hexmage. I think you would want at least 1x Ghost Quarter, not only for Karakas but as a free way to shuffle with Symmetry. I would probably try 2 copies of Ghost Quarter in your list, because it would make Ancient Stirrings a small percentage better (Stirrings can't find Trophy.)

EDIT: I forgot GQ has a 'may' clause, so they could opt to just take the Strip Mine if the card they got is good enough. It probably tips the playability of GQ #2 down a little.

[deathbytv]

We had our local monthly Legacy event this past weekend. 25 people and I went 4-0, and then scooped by round 5 opponent into top 4. We didn't play out top 8. I played a modified version of the Hogaak and Slow Depths decks. I wanted to test out the Cabal Therapy package with Khalni Garden, and Elvish Reclaimer. Reclaimer makes the Death and Taxes matchup a bit better as you have more access to rebuild if they interact with the combo but I am not completely sold. The deck felt very strong and Cabal Therapy was really nice against Elves. I was able to snipe a Natural Order after fetching for a Dryad Arbor which won me a game.

My Matchups were:
BR Reanimator 2-0
Slivers 2-0
Death and Taxes 2-0
Elves 2-1

Here is a link to the 75 I played:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2106105

Creatures
2 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Elvish Reclaimer
4 Vampire Hexmage
Sorceries
3 Sylvan Scrying
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
Instants
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Crop Rotation
Artifacts
4 Mox Diamond
Enchantments
1 Sylvan Library
Lands
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Swamp
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Khalni Garden
1 Dryad Arbor
Sideboard
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Duress
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Karakas
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Pithing Needle
1 Plague Engineer
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Veil of Summer
1 Choke

[apple713]

has anyone tested or thought about adding wrenn and six to the deck somehow? He’s a 2 mana planeswalker that has 3 very relevant abilities for our deck. The damage is just enough to really frustrate D&T and maverick decks. The land recursion can be used for our combo, for wasteland or gq locks, or blocks with dryad arbor. Also, if it gets to that point I imagine retraceable crop rotation is pretty good.

[filln]

has anyone tested or thought about adding wrenn and six to the deck somehow? He’s a 2 mana planeswalker that has 3 very relevant abilities for our deck. The damage is just enough to really frustrate D&T and maverick decks. The land recursion can be used for our combo, for wasteland or gq locks, or blocks with dryad arbor. Also, if it gets to that point I imagine retraceable crop rotation is pretty good.

Eli Kassis played Jund Depths to a 2nd place finish at a 2K recently, adding in red for W&6 (main) and Ancient Grudge (side): https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=22480&d=352888

PS: Nice playing ya the other week at Montasy, I was your opponent on Bomberman that got absolutely wrecked. 👋

[caseyc]

has anyone tested or thought about adding wrenn and six to the deck somehow? He’s a 2 mana planeswalker that has 3 very relevant abilities for our deck. The damage is just enough to really frustrate D&T and maverick decks. The land recursion can be used for our combo, for wasteland or gq locks, or blocks with dryad arbor. Also, if it gets to that point I imagine retraceable crop rotation is pretty good.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2132197#paper

[Myrd]

Has anyone tried Blast Zone as a one-of tutor target?

[apple713]

it's in one of the lists above with wrenn and seems alright but its a pretty slow card.

[Mr. Safety]

Three different versions of Depths recently top 8'ed a Legacy League, with local hero Mzfroste taking 1st place. Mox version w/Reclaimers in 1st, Maverick-ey version in 3rd (Sharkcaster Mage) and Hogaak Depths in 8th (NonsonosaN.)

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=22758&d=355446&f=LE

I feel that Reclaimer has a place in any Depths list, honestly. It's a little slower but the same overall mana investment as Expedition Map while providing a repeatable effect and alternative 3/4 beatstick. I think it will be come a staple in any/all Depths lists. I'm currently on 3 copies, debating a 4th, in a Lotus Petal/ESG setup. The slots it would have to take up are Sylvan Scrying, which is more efficient but less flexible.

[Purple Blood]

I love how much brewing there is going on with Depths right now thanks to Hogaak and W6.

This list is pretty fun to play: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-bg-89135#paper. Mengucci streamed a similar list recently and it feels like Hogaak and Depths are a really amazing 1-2 punch insofar as your opponent has to deal with two kill conditions. It crushed a bunch of fair blue decks.

Now I'm wondering if there's a way to make this a Jund list to fit in a few copies of W6. Something like -1 Therapy, -1 Thoughtsieze, -1 Hexmage, -1 Garden, +3 W6, +1 Taiga. W6 is so busted with Mox Diamond and Wasteland but the issue is its such a tight list and everything plays a critical role so the answer might be its not worth it.

The list could also potentially benefit from a copy or two of Loam and some cycling lands. Sylvan Library is another card that should probably at least be one of in the 75.

[BeTeP]

Seems like wizards print very interesting card for BG depth decks:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EEB5KQ-XoAUDdX0?format=png&name=small

What do you think guys?

[adrieng]

i think it might see play in turbo version but it is not good enough for hogaakDepth

[Mr. Safety]

Digging 5 deep is pretty good, and it gets around Chalice@1 (I'm comparing it to Ancient Stirrings.) The great part GB Depths is that there are so many options to sub in/out depending on the metagame:

Sylvan Scrying
Expedition Map
Ancient Stirrings
Not of this World
Elvish Reclaimer
Satyr Wayfinder
Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
Dark Confidant
Mox Diamond
Life from the Loam


Depending on what the metagame is soft against you can build it with Loam/Diamond/utility lands, Wayfinder/Reclaimer/Hogaak, Scrying/Map/ESG, Confidant/maindeck removal for a 'Rock'-like approach, Stirrings/Not of This World. The core of the deck is Hexmage, Depths, Stage, and discard. From there you add the right mix of tutors/dig/disruption to adapt.

[splorf]

I am sure the answer is somewhere out there, but wasn't able to find it, so hopefully some kind ashen one might explain to a poor soul why Sylvan Scrying is played over Living Wish?

Both are 2cmc sorceries. I don't see any real upside of SyScry, besides a free shuffle and more room in the Sideboard. The former is nice, sure, but the latter becomes somewhat relative, since Living Wish grants access to a virtual n-of-toolbox of redundant combo pieces and (nowadays pretty potent) silverbullets.

Didn't call the department of redundancy department, so just guessing, but 3 Depths, 3 Stages, 3 Hexmage, 4 Living Wish and 1 copy of each combo piece in the SB alltogether add up to redonkulous amounts of virtual cards in my crazy coconut head. What am I missing? I see, this is slower than just playing 4-ofs main, but on the other hand there's more room for disruption/mana sources/fun-ofs/whatever. Situational stuff like Bog, Karakas or Tabernacle are still available G1 - for the demonic price of not being cräp rotationable until you board them in for G2 though.

Please educate me before I de-educate you! :tongue:

[Mr. Safety]

I am sure the answer is somewhere out there, but wasn't able to find it, so hopefully some kind ashen one might explain to a poor soul why Sylvan Scrying is played over Living Wish?

Both are 2cmc sorceries. I don't see any real upside of SyScry, besides a free shuffle and more room in the Sideboard. The former is nice, sure, but the latter becomes somewhat relative, since Living Wish grants access to a virtual n-of-toolbox of redundant combo pieces and (nowadays pretty potent) silverbullets.

Didn't call the department of redundancy department, so just guessing, but 3 Depths, 3 Stages, 3 Hexmage, 4 Living Wish and 1 copy of each combo piece in the SB alltogether add up to redonkulous amounts of virtual cards in my crazy coconut head. What am I missing? I see, this is slower than just playing 4-ofs main, but on the other hand there's more room for disruption/mana sources/fun-ofs/whatever. Situational stuff like Bog, Karakas or Tabernacle are still available G1 - for the demonic price of not being cräp rotationable until you board them in for G2 though.

Please educate me before I de-educate you! :tongue:

Short answer #1: its not as efficient.
Short answer #2: it has been tried and foregone for a more reliable structure. I imagine the primer still answers this question as well.

Edit: yes, it addresses Living Wish near the bottom of the primer.

Edit #2: i've been practicing this deck for over a year and the consistency of having nut draws for t2-3 marit lage is worth the playsets in the maindeck. When you naturally draw your combo your tutors can address disruption (steppe, gq, bog.) Playsets give you the best odds of naturally drawing the combo, especially now with the london mulligan.

[splorf]

[...]london mulligan.

:eek:
Oh boy.....good morning....nuff said. Thank you!

[DNSolver]

Living Wish is nice and flexible... if you have the mana and time to use it. You're right that it's basically a Sylvan Scrying most of the time. There also is upside to being able to grab Ashen Rider, Reclamation Sage, Phyrexian Revoker, and other utility lands like Karakas.

But if you have your Karakas in the board, you can't Crop Rotation for it. And if you play a 2nd one maindeck, that's eating into precious slots. Same argument for Sejiri Steppe, Wasteland/Ghost Quarter, etc. Something that Sylvan Scrying doesn't.

Living Wish obviously forces you to play a Stage and Depths in your board, which cuts down on the probability of turn 2 hex + Depths plays and the probability of natural combo without casting a spell. These are invisible downsides that you won't notice while playing the card, unless you compare results across 10,000+ games.

And I will point out the other big drawback: loss of sideboard space. While before you had 15 slots, if you spend slots on Stage, Depths, and Wasteland/Ghost Quarter, you are down slots for things that Living Wish *can't* get that you really need, like Surgical, Pithing Needle, sphere effects, Decay, Force of Vigor, etc.

tl;dr Living Wish is an option but don't claim it has no downside vs Scrying.

[splorf]

tl;dr Living Wish is an option but don't claim it has no downside vs Scrying.

Eh, what....would you please point me to the part where you suspect me to claim something like that or where I state anything to be fact contrary to the present common sense? Like in "Hey, fools, I have no clue what's going on, but here is the lesson you never asked for!"? :really:
I was literally asking where the upside of Scrying vs Wish is. That's the exact opposite of what you are trying to pin on me here.

What you probably mistake here is me trying to elaborate my thought-process to reflect where I'm coming from and why I don't understand the status quo, since Wishes supposedly had more advantages in my perception. I have almost no experience with this deck and I can imagine the question is trivial for veterans, but maybe also relevant for other interested noobs like myself. I have honestly no idea what made you come to this conclusion. :confused:

Edit: It's even worse.....I was not only NOT argueing there is "no downside". Instead I was even mentioning some CONS I could think off.