[Deck] Turbo Depths

[caprino]

It is mainly cabal therapy food and acceleration into turn 3 token.

Ok, Vs death and taxes and miracle side in and side out card?

[adrieng]

miracle :
-4 crop -2 duress -2 cabal - 2map -1 scrying
+2 krip +2 chalice+3 surgical +3 not of this world +1 maze

death and taxes :
-4 duress -2 map -1 probe -1 scrying -1 crop
+2 kgrip +2 pyro +4 not of this world +1 maze

[caprino]

miracle :
-4 crop -2 duress -2 cabal - 2map -1 scrying
+2 krip +2 chalice+3 surgical +3 not of this world +1 maze

death and taxes :
-4 duress -2 map -1 probe -1 scrying -1 crop
+2 kgrip +2 pyro +4 not of this world +1 maze

today 3 1
win vs miracle 2 0
win vs elf 2 1
lose vs ant 0 2
win vs bug 2 0

one question: why main deck no bayou?

[caprino]

adrieng:How are the tests with the list?

[Dalton!]

I always liked an eva-greenish or a more rock like approach to this Deck and i was wondering if someone is playing or toying with something similar.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vampire Hexmage

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to tourach
3 Living Wish
1 Maelstrom Pulse


4 Abrupt Decay
2 Crop Rotation

3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Senseis Divining Top

2 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Dark Dephts
1 Thespians Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland

Sideboard is under construction. Would look like

1 Vampire Hexmage
1 dark dephts
1 Thespians Stage
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Reklamation Sage
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
2 Duress
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Surgical Extraction

[tapedecky]

Hi Guys/Girls

long time reader / first time poster, just wanted to ask if its ok when i post my twitch channel.
Im streaming my build of this deck atm and regulary.

Im looking foward to discus this deck with you.

https://www.twitch.tv/vanudo12

Build:http://deckstats.net/deck-10247427-2e9e6496ed84ec3b7fa796e2aac4cbb4.html

Have a good one! =)

Edit: also recording the stream for replays, if someone is interested and mist it.

[Negator77']

Hi Guys/Girls

long time reader / first time poster, just wanted to ask if its ok when i post my twitch channel.
Im streaming my build of this deck atm and regulary.

Im looking foward to discus this deck with you.

https://www.twitch.tv/vanudo12

Build:http://deckstats.net/deck-10247427-2e9e6496ed84ec3b7fa796e2aac4cbb4.html

Have a good one! =)

Edit: also recording the stream for replays, if someone is interested and mist it.


I'd certainly watch to see how you are doing with your version. Looked into streaming myself a while ago, but its a royal pain without a second monitor (which I don't have atm). Replays would be sweet too!

[Chiptoon]

I always liked an eva-greenish or a more rock like approach to this Deck and i was wondering if someone is playing or toying with something similar.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vampire Hexmage

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to tourach
3 Living Wish
1 Maelstrom Pulse


4 Abrupt Decay
2 Crop Rotation

3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Senseis Divining Top

2 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Dark Dephts
1 Thespians Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland

Sideboard is under construction. Would look like

1 Vampire Hexmage
1 dark dephts
1 Thespians Stage
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Reklamation Sage
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
2 Duress
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Surgical Extraction

I helped a friend build a similar list. I like having a Wasteland, Shriekmaw, and Melira in the board. Living Wish is your trump card, so make sure you use it to its full potential.

[Dalton!]

Would you mind posting this list here?

Maybe a Volrath Stronghold can be included to loop the shriekmaw.

If i could mange i would even play a small package of Natural Order and Progenitus for another angle of surprise.

[tapedecky]

I'd certainly watch to see how you are doing with your version. Looked into streaming myself a while ago, but its a royal pain without a second monitor (which I don't have atm). Replays would be sweet too!

Last stream sadly wasnt recorded

Will stream at 19:00 CEST

[-Spooky-]

Made 14th at another 1k (60 people). Same list as before, but I had Bog in the main, along with a needle (instead of library). I had 2 losses in the day, and both of them were to Death and Taxes. We just can't beat the deck. 3 people were playing it at the tournament (I counted) and I faced two of them in a row. some pretty bad luck. :/

I really like replacing Library. I haven't missed it yet. Not sure if Needle as a one-of is the right choice though. I had tried massacre in the sideboard for Death and Taxes, but it doesn't matter. The match up is just unwinnable (for the most part) and I don't think it's worth it to even waste sideboard space. I think the right play is to just have a better board for other match ups and concede to D&T. This makes me sad, because the deck is on the rise.

[Negator77']

Made 14th at another 1k (60 people). Same list as before, but I had Bog in the main, along with a needle (instead of library). I had 2 losses in the day, and both of them were to Death and Taxes. We just can't beat the deck. 3 people were playing it at the tournament (I counted) and I faced two of them in a row. some pretty bad luck. :/

I really like replacing Library. I haven't missed it yet. Not sure if Needle as a one-of is the right choice though. I had tried massacre in the sideboard for Death and Taxes, but it doesn't matter. The match up is just unwinnable (for the most part) and I don't think it's worth it to even waste sideboard space. I think the right play is to just have a better board for other match ups and concede to D&T. This makes me sad, because the deck is on the rise.

It's a tough match-up, but far from unwinnable. I'm 13-12 against it now after beating it in modo league play tonight. It takes a lot (I literally bring in 10 cards against it), but it can be done. If I figure out how to record replays, I'll post some matches against it. If the cards in the board didn't have so many applications in various other match-ups, it may not be worth it... but they do imo.

Imperial Taxes, now that is closer to unwinnable.

[-Spooky-]

It's a tough match-up, but far from unwinnable. I'm 13-12 against it now after beating it in modo league play tonight. It takes a lot (I literally bring in 10 cards against it), but it can be done. If I figure out how to record replays, I'll post some matches against it. If the cards in the board didn't have so many applications in various other match-ups, it may not be worth it... but they do imo.

Imperial Taxes, now that is closer to unwinnable.

Well I'm curious now, mind providing your board and plan?

[Negator77']

Well I'm curious now, mind providing your board and plan?

We obviously run different versions of the deck, but my plan is to find a small window to sneak through... so max out on needles and add the extra Ghost Quarter for sure. The Decays and Grips come in for Aether Vail + Flickerwisp nonsense and equipment (them gaining life is basically game over if they are aware that 20+ life and a sandbagged Karakas in hand is close to game over). Pithing Needles can name Karakas, Wasteland, Aether Vial, Port, Mangara, SFM, Mom, etc. Ghost Quarter is there for extra LD and the option to needle wasteland without shutting off your own ability to destroy karakas. Some # of Extractions can also come in mainly for Swords and Wasteland, but also check to see if the coast is clear in a pinch.

Generally....I board out Brainstorms, Mox's, 1 Gemstone Mine, and a Map. The Brainstorms are weaker against the taxing effects, the Mox's aren't going to accelerate you into a quick win very often and stink vs Revokers, and Map is also soft to Revoker.

[-Spooky-]

In case anyone is interested, I got a feature match at the most recent 1k I attended. You can find video footage of me playing the deck in the link, as well as footage of every other feature match in the tournament.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD5h9gVqb_0

[Negator77']

In case anyone is interested, I got a feature match at the most recent 1k I attended. You can find video footage of me playing the deck in the link, as well as footage of every other feature match in the tournament.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD5h9gVqb_0

It's always fun to watch coverage when it happens for Depths decks. I enjoyed the casual turn two bog from hand blowout!

[Sprayquaza]

Hello I recently saw this deck and decided to play a G/B version much like Spooky.
Unfortunately I did make a few budget calls like 3 IoKs over Thoughtseizes and Polluted delta over Verdant Catacombs. However after playing a load of games on MTGO league I've found this deck has a chance against everything. There has been no matchup I've felt is super unwinnable except for Death and Taxes which is luckily unpopular online.
Does anyone have any idea what to replace the two expedition maps with? They never feel useful and are always sideboarded out. Perhaps just put two mode sideboard cards maindeck?

The Deck:

Creatures-
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Vampire Hexmage

Other Spells
4 Lotus Petal
2 Expedition Map
3 Into the North
4 Crop Rotation
3 Not of This World
4 Sylvan Scrying
1 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Pithing Needle


Lands
4 Polluted Delta
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Bayou
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Bojuka Bog

SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Maze of Ith

I also wrote down the my winrate (games) vs all the decks I've faced if anyone is interested in seeing that.

[Negator77']

Hello I recently saw this deck and decided to play a G/B version much like Spooky.
Unfortunately I did make a few budget calls like 3 IoKs over Thoughtseizes and Polluted delta over Verdant Catacombs. However after playing a load of games on MTGO league I've found this deck has a chance against everything. There has been no matchup I've felt is super unwinnable except for Death and Taxes which is luckily unpopular online.
Does anyone have any idea what to replace the two expedition maps with? They never feel useful and are always sideboarded out. Perhaps just put two mode sideboard cards maindeck?

The Deck:

Creatures-
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Vampire Hexmage

Other Spells
4 Lotus Petal
2 Expedition Map
3 Into the North
4 Crop Rotation
3 Not of This World
4 Sylvan Scrying
1 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Pithing Needle


Lands
4 Polluted Delta
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Bayou
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Bojuka Bog

SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Maze of Ith

I also wrote down the my winrate (games) vs all the decks I've faced if anyone is interested in seeing that.

The Maps are the worst tutors in both versions that I've seen you try. I run 10 tutors (albeit with some dig in brainstorms) and the list you are trying runs 13. It certainly can't hurt to try 11, squeeze either some Decays or Needles into the main, and see how it goes. If you try that, I'd definitely add a Karakas to the SB since that is always card #15 or 16 for me online and always in the SB in paper.

Always interested in more data. Feel free to post your rates and experiences with whatever versions you test.

[apple713]

Does anyone have any idea what to replace the two expedition maps with? They never feel useful and are always sideboarded out. Perhaps just put two mode sideboard cards maindeck?
.


I know that the primer can be intimidating but seriously... read it. I've reposted the most relevant part to your question, but it sounds like you could benefit from a read through.


Main Deck Construction Guideline

Ultimately, this is what the stock shell currently looks like:

The basic skeleton is below and should be followed closely to maintain consistency.

Combo - 12 (4 Dark Depths 4 Thespian's Stage 4 Vampire Hexmage)
Tutors - 8 - 12 (4 Crop Rotation 4 Expedition Map 4 Sylvan Scrying)
Additional Draw - 5
Protection - 13 (Pithing Needle, Inquisition of Kozilek, Duress, Pyroblast, Ancient Stirrings, Exploration, Mox Diamond, Life from the Loam, Karakas)
Color Producing Lands - 14 (4 of which are Urborg and can be cut if not running black)
Utility lands - 0-4 (Sejiri Steppe, Wasteland, Maze of Ith, Ghost Quarter, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale)

The numbers can be +/- 1 maybe 2 but remember that the greater the deviation, the less consistency you will have with the deck.

8 -12 tutors provide a very consistent basis for assembling the combo very quickly. Recent Versions have been only been using 8 4Crop Rotation 4 Expedition Map with no reported loss of consistency. So, if you need to make room for other cards you can cut the number to 8 but I would not go less than that.

5 additional draw spells aid in consistency. Sylvan library has been the typical choice because it allows you to recover quickly in the event of swords to plowshares. Sensei's Divining Top works as well since it is not dependent on green mana. Usually a split between the two is appropriate.


2. Tutors

Crop Rotation: This is single handedly the best tutor for the deck. For the cost of 1 green mana you instantly get the missing combo piece or defensive card you are lacking. The land come into play untapped so it is essentially free.

Expedition Map: Although it is slightly more costly than sylvan scrying it allows you to search with colorless mana which is especially important under blood moon effects.

Sylvan Scrying: 1 mana less than expedition map but requires green, which is not commonly an issue.

Sylvan Library: The best draw spell for green. This card helps significantly over other cards like Mirri’s Guile because it allows you to translate life into cards in the event that Marit Lage gets Swords to Plowshares


If you dont find a card you excpect to be under a certain section, do a ctrl + find for it, its more than likely under a different section. Into the north is an example.

Into the North: This is great because it puts any snow covered land directly into play. While it does get Dark Depths, it does not compare to the versatility of sylvan scrying.




SO after reading all of that, you should be able to deduce that into the north is the least versatile tutor in your deck and in my opinion, it should be cut first. Expedition map is next on the chopping block because it is the most costly. HOWEVER, map is really good under moon effects so, if you have trouble with moon effects this is a great card to include, otherwise, not so much. Looking at your list, i would probably substitute some of your inefficient tutors for sylvan library. Alot of times, what you need is on top of your deck, and because you are a turbo version, you can use the extra cards immediately. Things like lotus petal, spirit guides and not of this world are all playable the turn you get them and can help in multiples.

-3 into the north +3 sylvan library
OR -2 expedition map -1 into the north +3 sylvan library

if I recall correctly libraries are expensive online so you may want to think about them when you draw expedition map / into the north and see if they would have been beneficial.
If there is information missing in the primer or that you would like added let me know. PM or post here.

[Negator77']

SO after reading all of that, you should be able to deduce that into the north is the least versatile tutor in your deck and in my opinion, it should be cut first. Expedition map is next on the chopping block because it is the most costly. HOWEVER, map is really good under moon effects so, if you have trouble with moon effects this is a great card to include, otherwise, not so much. Looking at your list, i would probably substitute some of your inefficient tutors for sylvan library. Alot of times, what you need is on top of your deck, and because you are a turbo version, you can use the extra cards immediately. Things like lotus petal, spirit guides and not of this world are all playable the turn you get them and can help in multiples.

-3 into the north +3 sylvan library
OR -2 expedition map -1 into the north +3 sylvan library

if I recall correctly libraries are expensive online so you may want to think about them when you draw expedition map / into the north and see if they would have been beneficial.
If there is information missing in the primer or that you would like added let me know. PM or post here.


I think part of the issue here is that the version he/she is currently running is pretty different from the primer lists. The list is much more speed based and closer to an all in deck. Like you pointed out, there are literally zero draw spells in the deck plus only 3 answers (Decays) to an on board Blood Moon, all of which are in the sideboard. The traditional upside of Expedition Map in finding a basic land is a lot smaller when there are a grand total of 3 B/G answers to a resolved Blood Moon. In a version running sylvan, some grips, decays, etc, Map can obviously be better. In this version, I think it is actually straight up worse than Into the North. ITN does exactly what this version is trying to do, accelerates into the kill asap. The more you add draw, filtering, more answers at the expense of top speed (closer to the primer lists)... the better map gets imo.

Sylvan Library ranges from .40 to about 2-3 depending on the version nowadays.. Price shouldn't be an issue if anyone wants to try it out there.

[apple713]

I think part of the issue here is that the version he/she is currently running is pretty different from the primer lists. The list is much more speed based and closer to an all in deck. Like you pointed out, there are literally zero draw spells in the deck plus only 3 answers (Decays) to an on board Blood Moon, all of which are in the sideboard. The traditional upside of Expedition Map in finding a basic land is a lot smaller when there are a grand total of 3 B/G answers to a resolved Blood Moon. In a version running sylvan, some grips, decays, etc, Map can obviously be better. In this version, I think it is actually straight up worse than Into the North. ITN does exactly what this version is trying to do, accelerates into the kill asap. The more you add draw, filtering, more answers at the expense of top speed (closer to the primer lists)... the better map gets imo.

Sylvan Library ranges from .40 to about 2-3 depending on the version nowadays.. Price shouldn't be an issue if anyone wants to try it out there.


Ive played the all in version before, and I've played with up to 16 tutors before. After a certain point the extra tutors are exactly that, just extra fodder that could have been something else. Rarely is this deck going to lose because it failed to find the combo. This deck tends to lose to other decks with lots of answers to the token (Death and taxes, miracles, 12 post) and decks that beat it before it can attack with the token (ANT). Of course there is variance in your draws and that can be reduced by increasing the number of tutors but I am clearly in favor of a more balanced deck. Reason being is because you will never be fast enough to beat ANT consistently on speed alone and the non turbo version (the lists in the primer) are fast enough to beat everything else while working in resilience to other decks. So my suggestion for sylvans is my bias towards a more balanced deck because the excess speed / tutors is unlikely to result in an increase in overall win%.

My favorite version to play is actually an all in version but with mox diamonds, gamble, entomb, life from the loam and explorations. Its alot of fun to play but i dont play it often because its not optimal. Its similar to the lands version but it cuts out practically all of the control aspects for speed / tutors. If people are interested i could post a bunch of different lists and ways to play the deck. I've tried to cut them out of the primer because they arn't optimal but they if people are interested in what I would refer to as fun versions i can post them. I've tried playing dark depths in almost every conceivable shell since its really the only deck i've played for years.

[Negator77']

Ive played the all in version before, and I've played with up to 16 tutors before. After a certain point the extra tutors are exactly that, just extra fodder that could have been something else. Rarely is this deck going to lose because it failed to find the combo. This deck tends to lose to other decks with lots of answers to the token (Death and taxes, miracles, 12 post) and decks that beat it before it can attack with the token (ANT). Of course there is variance in your draws and that can be reduced by increasing the number of tutors but I am clearly in favor of a more balanced deck. Reason being is because you will never be fast enough to beat ANT consistently on speed alone and the non turbo version (the lists in the primer) are fast enough to beat everything else while working in resilience to other decks. So my suggestion for sylvans is my bias towards a more balanced deck because the excess speed / tutors is unlikely to result in an increase in overall win%.

My favorite version to play is actually an all in version but with mox diamonds, gamble, entomb, life from the loam and explorations. Its alot of fun to play but i dont play it often because its not optimal. Its similar to the lands version but it cuts out practically all of the control aspects for speed / tutors. If people are interested i could post a bunch of different lists and ways to play the deck. I've tried to cut them out of the primer because they arn't optimal but they if people are interested in what I would refer to as fun versions i can post them. I've tried playing dark depths in almost every conceivable shell since its really the only deck i've played for years.

Oh, I agree... and its why I avoid the versions that are closer to being all in early. I've played Death and Taxes three times this week, once at Eternal Extravaganza 4 and twice in league play online. I was able to win all three, but would have had close to no chance with the faster version. Bring able to grind out wins in tough matchups is a big piece of having a well rounded deck imo. Our versions are different, but the core principles are fairly similar and fall within the basic framework that you put out there in the primer.

The # of tutors required is always a very interesting question. In some match-ups like Storm, I board down to 8. That is the number that I feel is appropriate when they don't have counters or wastelands. It enables the deck to overload on disruption and turn what seems like a tough pairing into a very good one post board. 10 tutors and 4-5 dig spells feels right versus decks like Delver that have both wastelands and counters. That has been my experience anyway. I can see an argument for 11-12, but there is only so much space. Anything over that seems like overkill.

I also tried a version with Gamble, Entombs, and Loam before. It felt unbeatable in some match-ups and really soft in others, but a blast to play. I prefer to ignore the graveyard though. Most players board in graveyard hate against me, and I enjoy them having dead cards in their deck. I would love to see your lists though!

[Negator77']

Q'd for the Legacy Festival with a 5-0 league and finished 11th in today's Legacy challenge. During the league, I played Caleb D who was streaming. During the match I kept wondering why his turns in game 2 felt awkward since obvious attacks and plays were taking just a little too long. Well, MTGO had some issues after he cast Meddling Mage and his commentary was hysterical, especially after the match ends. It starts at about 4:17:30:

https://www.twitch.tv/calebdmtg/v/76777055

This one was from EE4 a few weeks ago... Had an interactive game 1. Got blown out game 2 (T1 chalice on the play with a t4 clock, Wasteland, Karakas). Then had my first ever mull to 4 with the deck in game three. That didn't work out very well.

https://www.twitch.tv/talesofadventure/v/73900578

[gngpostalsrvc]

I played Spooky's list in a local 1k and went 5-0-1, which was good enough for first seed in the top 8. I beat RUG Delver (2-0), BUG Stiflenaught (2-0), Miracles (2-0), Miracles (2-1), and Burn (2-0) and IDed with Grixis Delver in the swiss. Then we split in the top 8.

The list felt great overall, although I agree with Spooky that the Expedition Maps and Sylvan Library weren't ideal. How about swapping the Sylvan Library for a Steely Resolve?

[WorstBandNameEver]

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/deck-of-the-day-legacy-bg-lands/?utm_content=buffer2a499&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

My version of Depths was featured on a CFB Deck of the Day. I was able to 5-0 in 2 league events with it. One of which for the legacy festival. I've had a decent number of 4-1 in league recently as well. Along with that were a few events that did not go as well.

Any feedback on this list is appreciated. Sideboard especially as I'm not much of a player or deckbilder for that matter. I'm honestly glad to find a deck that I feel like I can play somewhat well and that's a ton of fun to play.

Tried out Spooky's list today. Trying to get a feel for that as we speak.

[gngpostalsrvc]

WorstBandNameEver, I tried your exact list at FNM last night and got second. I liked that there were multiple angles of attack beyond just making Marit Lage as fast as possible, but there were a few things I would recommend changing.

A Bojuka Bog in either the MD or SB (cutting one of the Grafdigger's Cages?) would give you instant speed, tutorable graveyard hate with Crop Rotation.

Your list doesn't have a way to protect Marit Lage once she's in play. Since your deck is a little more controlling than the average Dark Depths build, I'd suggest Steely Resolve, which protects Marit Lage from everything but Terminus and Liliana. You could probably cut one of the Pithing Needles and maybe the Toxic Deluge for two Steel Resolve.

Your deck also doesn't have a way to get Marit Lage past flying blockers like Sejiri Steppe or Shizo, Death's Storehouse. This didn't come up last night, but I could it see it being a potential problem. If you want to run one of them, you could cut the second swamp.

A little more speculatively, Volrath's Stronghold could be used to recur dead Bob's and Hexmages.

[WorstBandNameEver]

WorstBandNameEver, I tried your exact list at FNM last night and got second. I liked that there were multiple angles of attack beyond just making Marit Lage as fast as possible, but there were a few things I would recommend changing.

A Bojuka Bog in either the MD or SB (cutting one of the Grafdigger's Cages?) would give you instant speed, tutorable graveyard hate with Crop Rotation.

Your list doesn't have a way to protect Marit Lage once she's in play. Since your deck is a little more controlling than the average Dark Depths build, I'd suggest Steely Resolve, which protects Marit Lage from everything but Terminus and Liliana. You could probably cut one of the Pithing Needles and maybe the Toxic Deluge for two Steel Resolve.

Your deck also doesn't have a way to get Marit Lage past flying blockers like Sejiri Steppe or Shizo, Death's Storehouse. This didn't come up last night, but I could it see it being a potential problem. If you want to run one of them, you could cut the second swamp.

A little more speculatively, Volrath's Stronghold could be used to recur dead Bob's and Hexmages.

Thanks so much for the feedback and and congrats on coming in second place. What did you play against?

I was almost only playing paper and online vintage for a bit and I really liked the Workshop Depths list when you could still play 4x lodestone. I tried to port it to legacy and it did not go as well and I ended up with this build out of that.

I realized very quickly in the past day or two in trying Spooky's list that mine really needs Bojuka Bog. Especially since the games with it tend to go longer and grinder. Also, being able to hit that off a one of the tutors against reanimator (etc.) would be nice too as the black/red iteration that plays the discard demon was challenging when I was on the play game 1. In addition, I have issues with lands when they were life from the loaming.

I never knew that Steely Resovle was a card before this thread. I will certainly try it in another league event soon after getting some rounds in the tournament practice room with it.

I do love stronghold as a card. My buddy did pretty well a few years ago with Mono-black devotion and was featured in a few places. That was a fantastic card in that deck when testing. I did not think of it for this deck but recurring hexmage, similar to crucible for the combo, seems neat. I'm not sure where to fit that one in though.

As of now, I'm dropping one main deck swamp for a bog and a cage for a steely resolve or steppe maybe. I need to play a few rounds with each to see.

I was playing an earlier version with maze of ith and I miss having that in the deck. I tried glacial chasm for a bit as well but i found it tended just to extend games that I was losing anyway without ever allowing me to turn it around.

Thanks so much. Other feedback is certainly welcome and greatly appreciated!

[hymnyou]

Nice work worstbandname ever! Good to see it working for you. I've been playing this list for awhile and love it, it's a deck I play every so often, not my main but it is my most pimped out deck :) glad it's catching some waves. The deck is strong imo, but you have to play tight. I have gone 3-1/4-0 at many weeklies and did well at some 20-60 man tournaments but I have never taken to a big event- maybe eternal weekend this year. I have a more updated list but here are some old ones.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12530&d=272229&f=LE

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=87633

[WorstBandNameEver]

Nice work worstbandname ever! Good to see it working for you. I've been playing this list for awhile and love it, it's a deck I play every so often, not my main but it is my most pimped out deck :) glad it's catching some waves. The deck is strong imo, but you have to play tight. I have gone 3-1/4-0 at many weeklies and did well at some 20-60 man tournaments but I have never taken to a big event- maybe eternal weekend this year. I have a more updated list but here are some old ones.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12530&d=272229&f=LE

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=87633

Thanks for the lists! I was hoping to be at EW this year as I've gone to the last 3 but the move to Friday for Vintage really cuts back my interest in traveling. If I could still do both Legacy and Vintage then there was good chance I would considering going. I don't have the work flexibility to miss a weekday unless I'm ill. I will be missing the closest SCG event as my wife and I will be away on vacation.

How does you more updated list compare to mine at this point? I plan on playing some version of depths in the legacy festival event so I'm trying ot get some reps in now to hopefully at least break even.

[hymnyou]

Thanks for the lists! I was hoping to be at EW this year as I've gone to the last 3 but the move to Friday for Vintage really cuts back my interest in traveling. If I could still do both Legacy and Vintage then there was good chance I would considering going. I don't have the work flexibility to miss a weekday unless I'm ill. I will be missing the closest SCG event as my wife and I will be away on vacation.

How does you more updated list compare to mine at this point? I plan on playing some version of depths in the legacy festival event so I'm trying ot get some reps in now to hopefully at least break even.

Quickly looking at it heres some notes from my playing/testing-

I tend to go with three crop rotations-It's a risky card with high reward with a chance of devastating punishment. 3 has worked well for me, I have it just enough. I tend to board these out quite often. Sylvan Scrying is so good in this deck. I have really, really liked 1-2 sylvan scrying, I prefer 2.

4 Stages is too much in my opinion. With so many tutor effects + vampire I just dont feel like you need that sort of redundancy with only 4DD unless youre finding a lot of holds to do interesting tricks with stage.

Sylvan Library is insane in this deck. I really just expect a lage to gets swords in white matches, which is fine with Library, I just pump life into library and ancestral two turns in a row if it makes sense. Bob just dies, he's so fragile so I play both. Personally I think this deck needs card advantage, fast. Ive thought about splashing blue for Brainstorm in this deck because its so important for the archetype.

I like thoughtseize of course, but I found duress much better on my life so I tend to lean towards duress in main and more seize in SB. I find myself more worried about spells then anything else because the utility to answer other threats after I see their hand are available. Creatures just tend not to matter. Also if you have deluge, bobs....thoughtseize just seems like pushing it unless you need to fight combo imo.

I go needle in main. Card is just insanely powerful across the board. Any bit of information I have a list in my head ready to name what is going to effect my play. Needle crushes so much, and protects the deck for them cards that threaten it the most.

My SB is meta dependent, I suppose my deck is somewhat too. I really like Null rod, it seems to get in the way of your map. I like map in 12post but not in this deck. Sylvan Scrying is superior in my opinion, it basically costs 1 less, with G not being a problem in my play.

Surprised to see no Bojuka bog, I feel like you could cut down on cages if you had bog- like one bog and a faerie macabre. You can tutor for bog and that just wins games sometimes, especially if you are running 4 CR. Tabernacle in the main seems aggressive even with urborgs, must be a MTGO meta call, I have only ever really needed it to stomp out T1 goblins. Mentor going off shouldn't be a problem for this deck imo.

How do you like 4 Wasteland?

Wolf for life.

[WorstBandNameEver]

Quickly looking at it heres some notes from my playing/testing-

I tend to go with three crop rotations-It's a risky card with high reward with a chance of devastating punishment. 3 has worked well for me, I have it just enough. I tend to board these out quite often. Sylvan Scrying is so good in this deck. I have really, really liked 1-2 sylvan scrying, I prefer 2.

4 Stages is too much in my opinion. With so many tutor effects + vampire I just dont feel like you need that sort of redundancy with only 4DD unless youre finding a lot of holds to do interesting tricks with stage.

Sylvan Library is insane in this deck. I really just expect a lage to gets swords in white matches, which is fine with Library, I just pump life into library and ancestral two turns in a row if it makes sense. Bob just dies, he's so fragile so I play both. Personally I think this deck needs card advantage, fast. Ive thought about splashing blue for Brainstorm in this deck because its so important for the archetype.

I like thoughtseize of course, but I found duress much better on my life so I tend to lean towards duress in main and more seize in SB. I find myself more worried about spells then anything else because the utility to answer other threats after I see their hand are available. Creatures just tend not to matter. Also if you have deluge, bobs....thoughtseize just seems like pushing it unless you need to fight combo imo.

I go needle in main. Card is just insanely powerful across the board. Any bit of information I have a list in my head ready to name what is going to effect my play. Needle crushes so much, and protects the deck for them cards that threaten it the most.

My SB is meta dependent, I suppose my deck is somewhat too. I really like Null rod, it seems to get in the way of your map. I like map in 12post but not in this deck. Sylvan Scrying is superior in my opinion, it basically costs 1 less, with G not being a problem in my play.

Surprised to see no Bojuka bog, I feel like you could cut down on cages if you had bog- like one bog and a faerie macabre. You can tutor for bog and that just wins games sometimes, especially if you are running 4 CR. Tabernacle in the main seems aggressive even with urborgs, must be a MTGO meta call, I have only ever really needed it to stomp out T1 goblins. Mentor going off shouldn't be a problem for this deck imo.

How do you like 4 Wasteland?

Wolf for life.

Thanks for all the thoughtfulfeedback. I certainly agree that not including Bojuka Bog was just rather large oversight on my part. I built the deck in isolation of other lists and there is definitely a lot to take in from other builds.

I agree that expedition map is pretty lackluster. I've been considering taking them out for a while. I found that I was boarding them out in a lot of games anyway. The one think I do like about them is they don't require green mana like the other tutors.

I like 4 crop rotation right now but I have been punished for it on occasion.

I like 4 wasteland. I just like wasteland. Wasteland/crucible was one of my favorite interactions in prison shops and wasteland punishes so many decks.

Tabernacle is another card I just really like which sort of biases my inclusion. I just find that it slows down a number of the decks that I was running into. I was running into a lot of decks with delver/Young Pyro and eldrazi. I was able to tutor it up a few times when my storm opponents played empty the warrens.

I agree that needle is one of the most fantastic cards for this deck. I started with 2 a while back and up to it 4. I have yet to include any in the main board as I don't think I have a way to search for just one. But, with how long the games seem to go for me, maybe that's ok.

So far I've move from thoughtseize to duress, dropped the maps for 2xsylvan scyring and 1x into the north (and change basics to snow basics), included 1 bog main, 1 steppe main, and a sylvan library.

[hymnyou]

Thanks for all the thoughtfulfeedback. I certainly agree that not including Bojuka Bog was just rather large oversight on my part. I built the deck in isolation of other lists and there is definitely a lot to take in from other builds.

I agree that expedition map is pretty lackluster. I've been considering taking them out for a while. I found that I was boarding them out in a lot of games anyway. The one think I do like about them is they don't require green mana like the other tutors.

I like 4 crop rotation right now but I have been punished for it on occasion.

I like 4 wasteland. I just like wasteland. Wasteland/crucible was one of my favorite interactions in prison shops and wasteland punishes so many decks.

Tabernacle is another card I just really like which sort of biases my inclusion. I just find that it slows down a number of the decks that I was running into. I was running into a lot of decks with delver/Young Pyro and eldrazi. I was able to tutor it up a few times when my storm opponents played empty the warrens.

I agree that needle is one of the most fantastic cards for this deck. I started with 2 a while back and up to it 4. I have yet to include any in the main board as I don't think I have a way to search for just one. But, with how long the games seem to go for me, maybe that's ok.

So far I've move from thoughtseize to duress, dropped the maps for 2xsylvan scyring and 1x into the north (and change basics to snow basics), included 1 bog main, 1 steppe main, and a sylvan library.

Glad there was some insight collected, thanks for your insight as well. Wasteland is great, the positive of having 4 is you can be aggro with wastelanding them which in some situations can hold them off from wastelanding you, obviously wrecks karakas and maze. With the crucible engine seems legit. Since you are utilizing wasteland I wouldnt go more than 2-3 needle in main, I tend to use needle for wasteland more than anything.

[Claymore]

WorstBandNameEver, I like the deck.

For suggestions, I'd put Karakas sideboard and replace it with Bojuka Bog main (as has been said in here already).

You look like you use the very early turns for board control - Thoughtseize, Hymn, Abrupt Decay. The Expedition Maps in that case certainly seem lackluster. I'd almost want them as Sylan Scrying instead.

I'm sure this will draw much ire, but perhaps try replacing the Maps with the new Liliana. She can modestly protect herself, you run a ton of discard and some good removal to help protect her, and her ultimate is an unstoppable win condition - giving you another out to Dark Depths. It also makes the opponent focus on something else. From what I'm reading, her -2 isn't used very much, but here you can at least get a Bob or Hexmage back.

For the sideboard, what problem decks do you have? Combo, Miracles? Could try Cabal Pit to fit Delvers, especially if you can stick a Crucible.

[Negator77']

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/deck-of-the-day-legacy-bg-lands/?utm_content=buffer2a499&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

My version of Depths was featured on a CFB Deck of the Day. I was able to 5-0 in 2 league events with it. One of which for the legacy festival. I've had a decent number of 4-1 in league recently as well. Along with that were a few events that did not go as well.

Any feedback on this list is appreciated. Sideboard especially as I'm not much of a player or deckbilder for that matter. I'm honestly glad to find a deck that I feel like I can play somewhat well and that's a ton of fun to play.

Tried out Spooky's list today. Trying to get a feel for that as we speak.

Congrats! Hopefully we won't run into each other at the festival. :)

It looks like you already got a bunch of feedback, but just wanted to agree with everyone who suggested Bog. It's been amazing in a variety of match-ups. Steppe is also a card that has won a ton of otherwise unwinnable games and I highly recommend giving it a shot. For online play, I've found Karakas lacking without a way to leverage it in your own deck (ala legends Miracles or Death and Taxes). It went from main to sideboard to out of the 75 entirely over the last year in my version. Some of the decks you would want it against aren't really present in large numbers on modo. I haven't missed it.


Wasteland is great, the positive of having 4 is you can be aggro with wastelanding them which in some situations can hold them off from wastelanding you, obviously wrecks karakas and maze. With the crucible engine seems legit. Since you are utilizing wasteland I wouldnt go more than 2-3 needle in main, I tend to use needle for wasteland more than anything.

Agreed on the #1 call for Needle being Wasteland. The only cards close in my experience have been S.D. Top and Karakas. A few players on here were running Needle in the main for a while (still might?). You just have to run Ghost Quarters instead, or a split in the main if you want to go in that direction. Some kind of split between Wasteland and Ghost Quarter is advisable anyway since you will run into issues against decks like Death and Taxes where naming Wasteland is needed and they could follow up with a Karakas that is no longer able to be wasted.

[CovenantElite30]

Congrats! Hopefully we won't run into each other at the festival. :)

It looks like you already got a bunch of feedback, but just wanted to agree with everyone who suggested Bog. It's been amazing in a variety of match-ups. Steppe is also a card that has won a ton of otherwise unwinnable games and I highly recommend giving it a shot. For online play, I've found Karakas lacking without a way to leverage it in your own deck (ala legends Miracles or Death and Taxes). It went from main to sideboard to out of the 75 entirely over the last year in my version. Some of the decks you would want it against aren't really present in large numbers on modo. I haven't missed it.



Agreed on the #1 call for Needle being Wasteland. The only cards close in my experience have been S.D. Top and Karakas. A few players on here were running Needle in the main for a while (still might?). You just have to run Ghost Quarters instead, or a split in the main if you want to go in that direction. Some kind of split between Wasteland and Ghost Quarter is advisable anyway since you will run into issues against decks like Death and Taxes where naming Wasteland is needed and they could follow up with a Karakas that is no longer able to be wasted.


I'm new to the deck, what's your most currently list you've been having success with?

Have you tested the card "Into the North" at all? I've seen some list with that in it but haven't tested it out.

[apple713]

Agreed on the #1 call for Needle being Wasteland. The only cards close in my experience have been S.D. Top and Karakas. A few players on here were running Needle in the main for a while (still might?). You just have to run Ghost Quarters instead, or a split in the main if you want to go in that direction. Some kind of split between Wasteland and Ghost Quarter is advisable anyway since you will run into issues against decks like Death and Taxes where naming Wasteland is needed and they could follow up with a Karakas that is no longer able to be wasted.


ghost quarter is an easy substitute bcause your goal in running it, or wasteland, isnt for mana denial / tempo but rather to destroy bothersome lands. Also, keep in mind if your opponent is plainyg wasteland you can always copy theirs.

[Negator77']

ghost quarter is an easy substitute bcause your goal in running it, or wasteland, isnt for mana denial / tempo but rather to destroy bothersome lands. Also, keep in mind if your opponent is plainyg wasteland you can always copy theirs.

That can happen, but in my experiences it's rare that they don't just waste you in response fizzling the stage copy attempt (usually the Stage unless you have Depths in play too). That can be to our advantage at times, but not always.



I'm new to the deck, what's your most currently list you've been having success with?

Have you tested the card "Into the North" at all? I've seen some list with that in it but haven't tested it out.

You can find most of the versions that have done well in the past two months here:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=555&meta=39&f=LE

Its been a while since I've tested Into the North. My 2 cents is generally preferring tutors that can grab any land for situational flexibility(Waste, Bog, Steppe, Stage, etc.). I know Spooky has had success with the card recently and it can certainly lead to some fast kills, so he would be the person to ask.

[apple713]

@ Spooky


I have a question for you since you play the turbo version. What matches do you think the turbo version has helped you win because you were 1 turn faster than the other non turbo versions? Can you recall games you would have lost because on maybe turn 2 / 3 if you wern't playing the turbo version?

I'm asking because I want to gauge how much value adding the "turbo" cards to the deck actually generate compared to non turbo cards that provide other defenses. With your current list you run 8 cards dedicated to the extra speed. I know you've mentioned that you just think this deck is stronger and you mulligan less but really think about the games you would have lost if you didn't make your token on turn 1/2 instead of turn 3/4.

[WorstBandNameEver]

WorstBandNameEver, I like the deck.

For suggestions, I'd put Karakas sideboard and replace it with Bojuka Bog main (as has been said in here already).

You look like you use the very early turns for board control - Thoughtseize, Hymn, Abrupt Decay. The Expedition Maps in that case certainly seem lackluster. I'd almost want them as Sylan Scrying instead.

I'm sure this will draw much ire, but perhaps try replacing the Maps with the new Liliana. She can modestly protect herself, you run a ton of discard and some good removal to help protect her, and her ultimate is an unstoppable win condition - giving you another out to Dark Depths. It also makes the opponent focus on something else. From what I'm reading, her -2 isn't used very much, but here you can at least get a Bob or Hexmage back.

For the sideboard, what problem decks do you have? Combo, Miracles? Could try Cabal Pit to fit Delvers, especially if you can stick a Crucible.

Thanks for all the suggestions here. I have played another 8 league events since switching up my maindeck and sideboard a litte. I've had seven 4-1s and one more 5-0. I even played a depths semi-mirror.

My favorite addition to the deck has been adding chalices to the sideboard. It's really helps with storm and miracles.

(As for the 8 events, I had a few days off from work and my wife was not around so there was TV to catch up on and MTGO to play.)

[TLK]

Is your current list the same as shown in the CFB link above?

edit must've changed a little as I don't see Chalices in that list. Mind sharing?

[WorstBandNameEver]

Is your current list the same as shown in the CFB link above?

edit must've changed a little as I don't see Chalices in that list. Mind sharing?

http://magic.wizards.com/en/content/deck-lists-magic-online-products-game-info

Should be listed from 7/22 - I can see my user name there but the link is not showing anything yet for me. Once they fix it, the list I used is there. There are a some change from the CFB list. Most changes have been to have better game against miracles and storm. I'm still a dog to lands right now. Any input on how to beat them or what else to bring in would be great.

Edit - Link is now good I guess.

[Negator77']

http://magic.wizards.com/en/content/deck-lists-magic-online-products-game-info

Should be listed from 7/22 - I can see my user name there but the link is not showing anything yet for me. Once they fix it, the list I used is there. There are a some change from the CFB list. Most changes have been to have better game against miracles and storm. I'm still a dog to lands right now. Any input on how to beat them or what else to bring in would be great.

Edit - Link is now good I guess.

I've found Lands to actually be an ok match-up unless they are on the black splash. I bring in a set of Needles, a set of Extractions, Ghost Quarter, and Karakas against them generally. You have almost all of those cards in your list already, so I'm not sure what to recommend as worth testing. How have they been giving you issues? Waste lock? Fast token?

I think one of the key differences in your list against Lands are the Hymn's over additional targeted discard. Stripping a tutor on the first turn (or forcing them to immediately crop rot) definitely changes the way things play out. Post board, taking Grip or Decay to protect Needles is important too. Hymn can hit lands that they will most likely get right back or even worse, Loam itself (sans an active DRS). I'm sure Hymn is better in other match-ups, but here it is just worse imo.

Another possible issue against Lands (having never played your exact list) could be that your main draw/dig spell is Dark Confidant. Having 11 creatures opens you up to Punishing Fire much more than other versions of Hexdepths. Punishing Fire is usually just a dead card in the match-up, but is great against DRS and Bob.

Steppe not being in your list also changes things a little. It has decided many games for me against lands where both players ended up with Marit Lage tokens and either had Karakas in the board G1, exiled via bog/DRS/Extraction/etc, handled by Waste/Quarter and no Loam, or just don't have another way to find it at that moment. Pro black just straight up wins the game in that spot more than you would think.

After the festival, I plan on testing out your version and Spooky's version to see how they play out. We will see how much I'm able to test against lands. It tends to be MIA online most of the time due to the cost of Port and almost all of my matches against it have happened in live tourneys. If I come up with anything, I'll let you know.

Good luck tomorrow!

[WorstBandNameEver]

I've found Lands to actually be an ok match-up unless they are on the black splash. I bring in a set of Needles, a set of Extractions, Ghost Quarter, and Karakas against them generally. You have almost all of those cards in your list already, so I'm not sure what to recommend as worth testing. How have they been giving you issues? Waste lock? Fast token?

[...]

Good luck tomorrow!

Thanks for the thoughtful feedback Negator. I think part of my problem with lands is that I haven't played against it much as well. I might try to play a little more tonight and make a few adjustments. I'm just excited to play in the big event tomorrow.

Punishing fires on DC is pretty rough. The point about grabbing their tutors is big. I have 3 extractions and have not seen them in the match ups I have played against lands. Luck of the draw on that I suppose. Being able to SE the loam would be nice.

Any further feedback you have when you get a chance to try it out would be great. I far from the best deckbuilder. I typically just copy lists from other people so working on this is well beyond what I'm used to doing.

Good luck tomorrow as well!

[-Spooky-]

@ Spooky


I have a question for you since you play the turbo version. What matches do you think the turbo version has helped you win because you were 1 turn faster than the other non turbo versions? Can you recall games you would have lost because on maybe turn 2 / 3 if you wern't playing the turbo version?

I'm asking because I want to gauge how much value adding the "turbo" cards to the deck actually generate compared to non turbo cards that provide other defenses. With your current list you run 8 cards dedicated to the extra speed. I know you've mentioned that you just think this deck is stronger and you mulligan less but really think about the games you would have lost if you didn't make your token on turn 1/2 instead of turn 3/4.

Hey man, sorry for the late reply, I've been out of the game for about a month, just taking a break. :)

As far as specific match ups that I remember winning simply because I was too fast go...I've won games against almost all decks in one situation or another because I was too fast for them. Specific matches that I feel it was very important to win fast are: Burn, KotR decks, RUG Delver, Combo decks, Eldrazi, Infect...that's from the top of my head.

I think you should take what I say with a grain of salt, and try it for yourself. I mean, that's what I did. I play tested both versions quite a bit, and found I had more success and more fun with the turbo version. It just felt more streamlined to me, and the results seemed to back that up. You may find that you prefer a slower version, and that's okay. Negator and I have talked about it, and we both have our opinions, but we also have numbers on our respective sides. I don't think you can go wrong with either list at this point, they both have their ups and downs, and some metas will be more inviting than others for each. *shrugs*

[TLK]

Are cards like Winter Orb/Ankh of Mishra effective against Lands? I know they tax us as well, but it seems they'd be more brutal for a Lands player and also have implications against decks like Miracles.

[apple713]

Are cards like Winter Orb/Ankh of Mishra effective against Lands? I know they tax us as well, but it seems they'd be more brutal for a Lands player and also have implications against decks like Miracles.



Winter orb could work well if used with tabernacle but against miracles , there only mana intensive ability would be top. Pithing needle does a better job at stopping that and chalice is even better cause it stops all their cantrips and swords.

I could see it doing ok vs lands but even they have moxes. i dont see this being better than our current options. Ankh is great against fetchlannds but we dont push and dmg other than marit lage so unless your deck is midrange i dont see you getting much benefit out of it.

[TLK]

Winter orb could work well if used with tabernacle but against miracles , there only mana intensive ability would be top. Pithing needle does a better job at stopping that and chalice is even better cause it stops all their cantrips and swords.

I could see it doing ok vs lands but even they have moxes. i dont see this being better than our current options. Ankh is great against fetchlannds but we dont push and dmg other than marit lage so unless your deck is midrange i dont see you getting much benefit out of it.

Great point about Ankh. That would work better in a midrange shell.

[Negator77']

Depths had a very nice showing in the MTGO Festival champs. Three of us from the source Q'd for it and all did very well (all with different versions too!). I managed to go 6-1 with my BUG version, then lost in the top 8 to Miracles (good for sets of Eternal Masters and Vintage Masters). BGG88 finished 13th with a list more along the lines of what Spooky runs (ESG, NOTW, Petals). WorstBandName finished 23rd with his version (Bobs, DRS, Hymn). We could have finished even better had my second win and in not unfortunately been against BGG88. Who would have thought a qualification only premier event would have a Depths mirror as a win and in for top 8?

Decklists for the top 32 are here:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-champs-2016-07-25

There is a top 32 meta analysis here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/4upiqg/legacy_metagame_based_on_the_mtgo_legacy_festival/?st=ir4172dg&sh=9dddce24

My tourney went.... wins against Grixis Delver, Grixis Delver, Eldrazi, Miracles, and Reanimator to start 5-0... I then lost to Miracles before the win and in mirror in rd 7. Unfortunately I got paired against the Miracles player I lost to in round 6 of the swiss and lost again in the top 8.

[Richard Arschmann]

Why do you not run Tabernacle in your version?

[Negator77']

Why do you not run Tabernacle in your version?

Off the top of my head, I can only think of a couple of games where Tabernacle would have won a game that I ended up losing, and they were both against TES where my turn 2 token wasn't fast enough to race their 12 turn 1 goblins on the play.

In general, a lot of the creature decks Tabernacle would be useful against are already favorable or very favorable match-ups imo.

[Kunfuzed]

Just to add some data points, I've been playing with the Turbo version for a few tournaments recently.

Went 1-3 at a weekly
Enchantress: Loss 1-2 (BUG version with BS finding Decay would have been key here)
Painter: Loss 1-2 (literally turn 1 double Thoughtseized his two Blood Moons, he topdecked a third)
Junk Midrange: Loss 1-2
Sneak & Show: Win 2-0

2-1 at a weekly:
Burn: Win 2-0
Miracles: Win 2-0 (super grindy. won on the 4th Depths once I had a Chalice in play)
Eldrazi: Loss 1-2

2-1 at a weekly (3-0 if I were competent):
ANT: Win 2-1
Junk Midrange: Loss: 1-2 (forgot to play a land turn 2, should have clearly won)
ANT: Win 2-0

3-0 at a weekly:
Cephalid Breakfast: Win 2-1
Eldrazi: Win 2-0
Grixis Delver: Win 2-0 (he misplayed his Wasteland)

Just Top 4'd a ~40 person event.
Food Chain: 2-1 (definitely made a mistake in the loss. Opening hand of Hexmage, Depths, Stage, 2 Lotus Petals, and for some reason went for the turn 1 Hexmage rather than just doing an "uncounterable" turn 2 token / turn 3 swing, leaving me with no acceleration or colored mana)
Esper Deathbade: 2-0 (he waited to Swords, allowing me to draw Crop -> Sejiri)
Shardless Bug: 2-0 (strix is annoying)
ANT: 2-0
Eldrazi: ID
Eldrazi: ID
ANT: 2-0
Eldrazi: 0-2 (we both had the nuts in both games, but he was on the play. Turn 2 TKS both games is rough)

Decklist has shifted around slightly in the flex slots, but pretty much:
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Into the North
3 Not of this World
3 Pithing Needle
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress

2 Bayou
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage

SB:
1 Pithing Needle
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Krosan Grip
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Thorn of Amethyst


The deck has felt ridiculously consistent and it's an absolute blast. A couple of anecdotes from this go-around and the last time I played Negator's BUG version (a few months ago, probably one big tournament and a few weeklies):

1. I am 100% vs. Storm over probably 7 matches. I guess that's what you get when you have 8 discard, 4 chalice, 3 surgical, and 4 crop rotation into Bog, but is that everyone else's experience?
2. I have only beaten Eldrazi once, and it was due to serious land flood on his part. In almost every loss, I would have swung with Marit Lage next turn. What's funny is that in a lot of those cases, I would have won if they had dropped a lock piece rather than a turn 1 Mimic (that ends up doing 9 damage). How have your matchups gone and is there anything extra to do in the SB to help this? 2 Mazes?
3. I have gotten too many wins from people making inexperienced mistakes (Stifling Dark Depths trigger, waiting until I attack to Swords allowing me to draw Crop -> Sejiri, Wastelanding too early, etc.). I get that's the benefit of a fringe deck, but I assume that a) people don't make those mistakes in higher-level tournaments and b) the deck seems to be picking up a bit of popularity which will limit the wins we get from this.
4. I think I like this faster version a bit more than the BUG version. Not of this World has mattered many times, and I have gotten a ton of wins off of just powering out the token a turn earlier than the BUG version and protecting it through their one removal spell. That said, it may just be the meta around here that's helping with that. I have also not missed the Expedition Maps after taking them out, since 4 ESG and 4 Lotus Petals are enough to get the basic(s) you need under Blood Moon, but open to critique there.
5. Still no idea how Negator is 50/50 with D&T! It's such a beating every time, and the only games I win are when I have the nuts turn 1 Needle (and guess Waste vs. Karakas correctly) and turn 2 discard for Swords then make a dude without them having another answer. Powering out and hoping is all that's worked for me, because every other game ends up with them having 4 answers to the next Marit Lage I make.

[adrieng]

I am still playing the deck from time to time on small tornament where I finish usually very well with lot of 4-1 ; and on cockatrice.
the deck is tier one my list destroys miracle it really does ; it has no bad matchup except for painter/dragon stompy MonoredSneak and BR reanimator.
I have validate the probe+cabal+bird+khalni garden tech it is really good to make sure you can go off.
The library are not that good when you know that lot of players have surgical in side and your own surgical can anhilitate both sword or opponent's surgical.
Surgical is a way sayfer plan I want to thanks negator for the tech.


4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Forest
3 Llanowar Wastes
4 Mana Confluence
1 Khalni Garden
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Ghost Quarter


4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Expedition Map
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Pithing Needle

2 Birds of Paradise

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Duress
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Abrupt Decay


SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 2 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Not of This World
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
1 Marit Lage
1 Elemental

[Negator77']

The deck has felt ridiculously consistent and it's an absolute blast. A couple of anecdotes from this go-around and the last time I played Negator's BUG version (a few months ago, probably one big tournament and a few weeklies):

1. I am 100% vs. Storm over probably 7 matches. I guess that's what you get when you have 8 discard, 4 chalice, 3 surgical, and 4 crop rotation into Bog, but is that everyone else's experience?
2. I have only beaten Eldrazi once, and it was due to serious land flood on his part. In almost every loss, I would have swung with Marit Lage next turn. What's funny is that in a lot of those cases, I would have won if they had dropped a lock piece rather than a turn 1 Mimic (that ends up doing 9 damage). How have your matchups gone and is there anything extra to do in the SB to help this? 2 Mazes?
3. I have gotten too many wins from people making inexperienced mistakes (Stifling Dark Depths trigger, waiting until I attack to Swords allowing me to draw Crop -> Sejiri, Wastelanding too early, etc.). I get that's the benefit of a fringe deck, but I assume that a) people don't make those mistakes in higher-level tournaments and b) the deck seems to be picking up a bit of popularity which will limit the wins we get from this.
4. I think I like this faster version a bit more than the BUG version. Not of this World has mattered many times, and I have gotten a ton of wins off of just powering out the token a turn earlier than the BUG version and protecting it through their one removal spell. That said, it may just be the meta around here that's helping with that. I have also not missed the Expedition Maps after taking them out, since 4 ESG and 4 Lotus Petals are enough to get the basic(s) you need under Blood Moon, but open to critique there.
5. Still no idea how Negator is 50/50 with D&T! It's such a beating every time, and the only games I win are when I have the nuts turn 1 Needle (and guess Waste vs. Karakas correctly) and turn 2 discard for Swords then make a dude without them having another answer. Powering out and hoping is all that's worked for me, because every other game ends up with them having 4 answers to the next Marit Lage I make.

1 - If you have 3-4 additional hate cards (Chalice or Flusterstorm) in the sideboard, plus extractions, plus 8+ discard spells.... you should have a good storm match-up. It has been very favorable in my experience.
2 - That is surprising to hear.. I'm personally over 75% against them in 30+ matches. My only real rule against them is to try and make sure the opening hand in post board games has either Hexmage, Decay, Grip, or the natural combo through TNS and chalice. I have violated this before and lost because of it. Our decks should just be straight up faster, even on the draw. Perhaps you are just getting a little unlucky? How many matches do you have in against it?
3 - It's been a while since I've had an opponent make a Stifle mistake, but big tournaments have plenty of play error too. I watched two different opponents miss on board kills against spooky at GP Columbus. I personally have made some pretty awful plays in tournament matches. People generally have very little experience playing against this deck and will make some mistakes. This effect definitely goes away to a large degree the deeper you go into tourneys with a good/great record... At that point, you are generally running into better players, better decks, some scouting, etc... Online it's pretty much becoming known at this point. I'm often the only guy in the room on it IRL.
4 - Won't get much of an argument from me. I also like Map because of the ability to play through Daze. Sometimes you just have no discard and I'd rather not walk right into it. Your version runs ESG, which probably reduces the need. If you feel that moon and co isn't an issue for your deck, then it seems fine to cut.
5 - Haha! I play the match-up the exact opposite way. I slow all the way down boarding out all acceleration and trying to navigate the game and find a window. Winning fast is just really unlikely against a deck that runs as many different answers as they do. I'd start by adding a Wasteland to your 75 if you want to fight it better. Trying to fight that deck without at least tutorable 2 answers to their lands is all but impossible.


I am still playing the deck from time to time on small tornament where I finish usually very well with lot of 4-1 ; and on cockatrice.
the deck is tier one my list destroys miracle it really does ; it has no bad matchup except for painter/dragon stompy MonoredSneak and BR reanimator.
I have validate the probe+cabal+bird+khalni garden tech it is really good to make sure you can go off.
The library are not that good when you know that lot of players have surgical in side and your own surgical can anhilitate both sword or opponent's surgical.
Surgical is a way sayfer plan I want to thanks negator for the tech.

You're welcome. I'll have to try out the Garden/Probe/Therapy package. I've never truly been 100% happy with discard spells 5-8 after Thoughtseize.

[Negator77']

All three versions from the MTGO festival champs got briefly discussed in an article here:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-july-wrap-up-legacy-festival-and-more-c74d9ccc-b6fd-48c3-8dd4-93bc60b8704b

It shows how well the deck did in that tourney and in general (tied for 5th most 5-0's and premier event finishes online in July with Shardless BUG).

[Richard Arschmann]

Do you think Chalice of the Void is a good SB card? Your list runs 0 when many run 4.

[Negator77']

Do you think Chalice of the Void is a good SB card? Your list runs 0 when many run 4.

I just recently tried it out after procrastinating about it for a long time on the theory that it wouldn't work in my version due to the high number of 1 drops. The card is very good, but its competing for the same sideboard slots that Flusterstorm currently occupies. In addition to the 1 drop issue, I run half the 0 cost acceleration pieces that the GB turbo version runs. That means turn 1 Chalice is off the table in most games, which is a big issue against decks like Storm since it can often be hit by their discard suite. Many Storm lists have also switched to Echoing Truth (plays right through Chalice for 1) which is coming in for token removal anyway. Turning that into an answer to your defensive cards as well is not where I want to be. The only match-up where I preferred it over Flusterstorm was against Miracles, which is obviously a big deal. Overall though, Flusterstorm is just the more flexible answer imo.

[uncletiggy]

@negator On the topic of flusterstorm which matchups does it really shine over pierce? I was jamming some games against sneak and show the other day and having pierce for his moon effects saved me from some serious beatings. I can also see it being more relevant vs jace which is another card i know we dont like seeing. I dont own the storms currently and they are pretty low on my buy list. Also what are your thoughs on teferi's response? This is what im running:


4 bstorm
4 crop rotation
4 sylvan scrying
2 expedition map

4 mox diamond
4 hexmage

1 duress
1 iok
4 thought seize
2 decay
2 pithing needle


4 stage
4 depths
4 urborg
3 gemstone caverns
2 bayou
1 snow covered forest
4 verdant
1 misty
1 usea
1 trop
1 seriji step
1 b bog
1 ghost quarter

2 dark confidant
3 pierce
1 ghost quarter
2 needle
2 grip
1 lftl
1 karakas
3 surgical

[Zooligan]

If people are interested i could post a bunch of different lists and ways to play the deck. I've tried to cut them out of the primer because they aren't optimal but they if people are interested in what I would refer to as fun versions i can post them. I've tried playing dark depths in almost every conceivable shell since its really the only deck i've played for years.

As a new guy to the deck, I would be very interested in seeing as much info on ways to play the deck as possible.

[Negator77']

@negator On the topic of flusterstorm which matchups does it really shine over pierce? I was jamming some games against sneak and show the other day and having pierce for his moon effects saved me from some serious beatings. I can also see it being more relevant vs jace which is another card i know we dont like seeing. I dont own the storms currently and they are pretty low on my buy list. Also what are your thoughs on teferi's response? This is what im running:


4 bstorm
4 crop rotation
4 sylvan scrying
2 expedition map

4 mox diamond
4 hexmage

1 duress
1 iok
4 thought seize
2 decay
2 pithing needle


4 stage
4 depths
4 urborg
3 gemstone caverns
2 bayou
1 snow covered forest
4 verdant
1 misty
1 usea
1 trop
1 seriji step
1 b bog
1 ghost quarter

2 dark confidant
3 pierce
1 ghost quarter
2 needle
2 grip
1 lftl
1 karakas
3 surgical

Well, the big one is Storm... In general, another plus is how Flusterstorm interacts with opposing counters. The fast combo decks (Storm, Sneak + Show, Reanimator, etc.) are primary targets and all of them can either create enough mana to fight through Pierce (Storm especially) or often have their own counters to protect their big spell (S+S, UB Reanimator) on the first few turns. I've won a lot games where my opponents Force of Will/Daze was essentially blanked by Flusterstorm on an early turn where the opponent would have won on the spot against Spell Pierce.

Pierce being able to hit Blood Moon (and Sneak/Jace for that matter) is very good against Sneak and Show, but so is winning the fight over an early turn Show and Tell when they have counter backup. My plan against that deck is to fight Sneak Attack and Moon with Discard, Grips, Needle, etc. I haven't run into Jace post board against this deck, so some players may be boarding them out here. The two counters are probably somewhat interchangeable in this match-up though, both with pluses and minuses.

It's not a big one, but recently I've also been messing around with boarding in 2 copies of Flusterstorm against Miracles. It has won me a few games and it working through CounterTop has come up.

Teferi's Response seems kind of slow. Most good players will sit on Wasteland until you try to combo(unless they are going to straight up tempo you out), meaning you need at least 5 mana sources (6 if you don't have Urborg) before it works as a protection piece with Stage/Depths. I suppose 4 mana as a protection piece is the best case scenario if you can set up Urborg/Depths/Hexmage. It's very good on turn 2 against things like Port and has the occasional early turn blowout potential, but it's a little too narrow/slow otherwise imo.

[Mafu13]

Hi guys, new to this deck but fell in love as soon as I saw it. Just finished building the B/G stock version that has been floating around.

Would just like some Sideboarding advice since I am going to be playing it this weekend in a local Legacy Tournament.

Sideboard I have settled with is :


3 Adrupt Decay
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Chalice of the void
1 Maze of ith
1 Toxic deluge
1 karakas
1 Krossan Grip
1 Crucible of Worlds


Could someone explain when to bring in chalice on one (I understand chalice on 0)? Is it for miracles? What would I then cut, as the deck runs quite a large amount of 1 drops. Also what would I bring in against elves, as I'm expecting to maybe vs it this weekend. Definitely Toxic D, but maybe Chalice on one? It slows them down a huge amount. (I usually play other chalice decks).

The meta this weekend would have the following decks: Elves, Jund, Miracles, Esper stoneblade (with lingering souls D:), twelve post, re animator, maybe DnT or burn, and a couple other decks. Thanks for the help!

[CovenantElite30]

How do you guys sideboard versus Miracles?

I've had a difficult time against this deck.

[DNSolver]

Top 8'd the Legacy Challenge today with Turbo Dark Depths. List will be going up on the Mothership and MTGGoldfish within the next few days, but I will type it out for you now:

3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Crop Rotation
3 Pithing Needle
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Into the North
3 Not of This World

Sideboard:
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle

I was very impressed with the performance of Dark Depths in general in the Legacy Festival Championships, with 3 decks posted online including one top 8, all slightly different configurations. As an advocate for non-blue combo decks in Legacy, I decided to build the turbo BG version and try it out. I confess that the first build I tried was directly netdecked, but then I made a few adjustments:

1) I saw no advantage in playing Duress and Inquisition over Thoughtseize, so I cut two of each to make room for 4 real Legacy cards.
2) The 4th Urborg seemed unnecessary and got replaced with another Snow Land so that Into the North could find mana in the face of taxing effects or color screw.
3) The Spirit Guides are very unexpected, which leads to free wins when the opponent taps out for Counterbalance or Knight of the Reliquary. Added a 4th.

After playing half a dozen matches in the Tournament Practice Room and going 4-1 in my first league with the deck, I was naturally completely locked into playing it for the Legacy Challenge. I had *zero* expectations. Note of Inclusivity: I mean no insult by using male personal pronouns throughout.

R1: Grixis Delver
I expect I'm not the only one who thinks this is the best way to start a tournament with this deck. A quick 2-0.

R2: Miracles
G1: I Needle his Top. He plays Explosives, getting ready to kill it. At the end of his 3rd turn I combo. He quickly casts Swords. I use a Spirit Guide for Crop Rotation. He Brainstorms for Force, misses, dies.
G2: I Needle Top. I have to play a slow game after that because I'm missing on black mana, just playing out combo lands slowly while he cantrips. I then of course draw Urborg to activate my hand of 3 discard spells. He Forces the first one, but his hand gets ripped apart that same turn by another discard spell. Surgical Extraction in his draw step reveals that he is dead.

R3: Michael Bonde on Abzan Stoneblade
G1 I mulligan and draw all three Into the norths, so its very slow. However, I do manage to combo on the end of his turn 4. I attack...and then he flashes in Scryb Ranger to combo with his Mother of Runes. I die shortly after even though I had plenty of live draws.
G2 I cast two Sylvan Scryings finding Bayou and Depths, Decay his turn 3 Knight of the Reliquary. He has Karakas, Mom, and Qasali Pridemage. I've drawn into Not of This World to deal with his Karakas and we're going to another game.
G3 He taps out for Knight of the Reliquary on turn 2 facing down a Hexmage. Spirit Guide -> crop Rotation -> Depths. I'm not not proud of it :D

R4: Eldrazi (won event)
G1 I keep a great turn 2 Hexmage combo hand and Duress. Opponent has Eldrazi Temple, Ancient Tomb, Chalice of the Void, Dismember, Matter Reshaper, Jitte, and Warping Wail. I take Chalice so that i can turn 2 combo him off my Crop Rotation. He draws and plays Mimic. I combo on my turn. He draws, plays, and activates Karakas. I carry on, but I'm on massive tilt and lose because I can't draw out of this spot... I will make a video of this game and put it on youtube if people want, I seriously cannot believe the topdeck there. I will have to wait for decklists to be posted to see how many Karakas he has.
G2 I keep an iffy 7. Maze, Stage, Spirit Guide, Petal, Scrying, Crop Rotation, Not of This World. I play Maze and Petal, he has a Thorn of Amethyst. I play Stage and Rotate Maze into Depths in response to Chalice on one. All I need is a mana. I don't draw any mana, and he draws Wasteland, Reality Smasher, Wasteland. I could make a video of that game too...

R5: Miracles
G1 was an experience and took forever. Preboard we don't have all our tricks and he was floating a Terminus forever so I was waiting until I could try to combo two turns in a row. He eventually took over the game with a Jace despite me attacking with a 2/1 and a 2/2.
G2 I scry Hexmage to the top and cheese him in response to his Counterbalance on his turn 2 by Rotating into Depths. Feels good man.
G3 I needle Top but he kills it with Wear/Tear. On my turn 4 I double Thoughtseize him and take some slightly relevant cards, leaving him with Surgical and Terminus. He cantrips, then I combo on his end step. On my turn, he looks for Terminus, Surgicals himself to shuffle, find Swords, and dies to Not of This World.

R6: BR Reanimator
G1 I know what I'm up against, which is good for me. I'm on the play, also good for me. I have Lotus Petal to get rid of 2 Chancellor of the Annex triggers, also good for me. I then Duress away his Animate Dead, leaving him with a hand of lands and fatties. I have Bog in hand, which was almost a trigger for me to mulligan, but I decided that G1 this hand was probably my best chance. Of course, he draws Entomb -> Exhume right away, getting Griselbrand, drawing 14, misses on making a second fatty. I play Stage from hand, holding up combo. He casts Faithless Looting but is forced to pass in the face of the mighty Marit Lage. I combo endstep and luckily draw a Crop Rotation to end the game immediately with Sejiri Steppe. Into top 8!

Top 8: RUG Delver
G1 I keep a pretty good hand and combo him out after he taps out for some creatures.
G2 I keep a pretty loose hand with double Pithing Needle and Chalice on one, trying to get'em. He has Mongoose on one so that won't work as well. I Needle Wasteland and eventually play Chalice on one but my hand is too slow to beat Nimble Mongoose into two Goyfs (even though they started as 1/2s).
G3 I get Chalice on one and Chalice on two. I think I'm all set, just need to draw into good stuff. He's holding up Wasteland, so I search up Ghost Quarter. Unfortunatley, my opponent apparently decided to include a copy of Jace, the Mind Sculptor in his deck, and plays that, starts plusing. I Ghost Quarter his Wasteland and desperately try to combo, but I locked myself out of my tutors with Chalice on one and two. I eventually Decay Chalice on two, cast a Sylvan Scrying for a combo piece, but still die to Jace ultimate.

I made pretty obvious sideboarding choices (by this I mean I figured them out based on ~10 matches with the deck :D) so I won't bore anyone with those after posting this giant tournament report. Deck seems great.

[Negator77']

Top 8'd the Legacy Challenge today with Turbo Dark Depths. List will be going up on the Mothership and MTGGoldfish within the next few days, but I will type it out for you now:

3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Crop Rotation
3 Pithing Needle
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Into the North
3 Not of This World

Sideboard:
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle

I was very impressed with the performance of Dark Depths in general in the Legacy Festival Championships, with 3 decks posted online including one top 8, all slightly different configurations. As an advocate for non-blue combo decks in Legacy, I decided to build the turbo BG version and try it out. I confess that the first build I tried was directly netdecked, but then I made a few adjustments:

1) I saw no advantage in playing Duress and Inquisition over Thoughtseize, so I cut two of each to make room for 4 real Legacy cards.
2) The 4th Urborg seemed unnecessary and got replaced with another Snow Land so that Into the North could find mana in the face of taxing effects or color screw.
3) The Spirit Guides are very unexpected, which leads to free wins when the opponent taps out for Counterbalance or Knight of the Reliquary. Added a 4th.



Congrats on the finish!

1 - That is my exact configuration for discard spells too. Thoughtseize is by far the best discard spell for this type of deck. Duress and IOK both miss several important targets and the life loss from Thoughtseize is not relevant very often.
2 - Your version is on 15 black sources (4 of which are 1 shots in Petals). This will lead to the occasional game where you can't double up on black on turn two or get cut off from mana denial. I'm a fan of maximizing the number of natural turn 2's with Urborg/Depths/Hex. Urborg also has similarities to Eye of Ugin in Eldrazi in that it often gets wasted on the spot on turn 1 which sometimes offsets the downside of drawing two. Let me know how three works out for you going forward if you continue to run the deck.

[Zooligan]

Couple questions:

On the Duress/IoK split, do you often find yourself in the situation of having Duress and wishing it was IoK, or the other way round?

Is 3 Not of this World enough to have it when you need it to protect your token, especially since you do not have dig to find it in this version?

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I'm curious about the inquisition/duress split as well. Duress seems better from my initial reps mostly due to being able to hit FoW but I'm open to inquisition if there are good reasons.

@Zooligan 3 Not of this world seems fine to me. It's not something you need to have and crop rotation into sejiri gives you plenty more copies of the basic effect. You're also protecting with the discard and needles so there is plenty to clear the way in my experience.

[Zooligan]

@Zooligan 3 Not of this world seems fine to me. It's not something you need to have and crop rotation into sejiri gives you plenty more copies of the basic effect. You're also protecting with the discard and needles so there is plenty to clear the way in my experience.

That makes sense. The 8 discard effects should provide plenty of proactive protection.

[Negator77']

I'm curious about the inquisition/duress split as well. Duress seems better from my initial reps mostly due to being able to hit FoW but I'm open to inquisition if there are good reasons.

There are very relevant cards that Duress misses that IOK hits and vice versa. Off the top of my head, IOK misses key cards like Force, Sneak Attack, Ad Naus, and Natural Order. In fact, I lost a game in league play tonight to Julian23 via Natural Order because I drew IOK. Cutting the other way, Duress is pretty miserable in certain match-ups and I've outright bricked with it on many occasions against Eldrazi especially. It misses key cards like Snapcaster (Snap into swords, etc), Flickerwisp, Eldrazi Displacer, among others. Sometimes a game can be won by just taking the opponents lone early threat with IOK and giving yourself a ton of time to set up. After playing with the deck for well over a year, I still don't know for sure what the right mix is. The only thing I'm 100% sure of is that the first 4 discard spells should be Thoughtseize.

[Claymore]

Cabal Therapy?

If you're needing to combo off right then and there or prevent a combo, a Therapy can strip the key card you'd lose to. Also plays well with Thoughtseize. It's the discard of choice in ANT at least.

[Zooligan]

It's usually best in decks that have Probe and even better in decks that have creatures to sac in order to flash it back. The only cards that will get you perfect info are the Thoughtseizes (assuming you would take out Duress/IoK for the Therapys). IDK, without probe/creatures I think I'd rather have Duress (most of the time, sometimes IoK...)

[uncletiggy]

From my experience thus far cabal therapy and probe are both liabilities. Its hard to evaluate opening hands containing only one of them and it leads to a lot of virtual mulligans. I have previous experience with cabal therapy coming from being on nic fit for the last three years so i think im pretty good about guessing hands and identifing potential hits vs potential relevance, and i can say id rather have duress#1 iok #1 and duress#2 before the first therapy. Im only on six discard 2 needle 2 decay main, currently i have 3 flex slots in the board that ive dedicated to control matchups but i could see having the second duress/iok over what is currently 2 bobs. The two bobs may be better as sylvan libraries tho.

[molaboy]

From my experience thus far cabal therapy and probe are both liabilities. Its hard to evaluate opening hands containing only one of them and it leads to a lot of virtual mulligans. I have previous experience with cabal therapy coming from being on nic fit for the last three years so i think im pretty good about guessing hands and identifing potential hits vs potential relevance, and i can say id rather have duress#1 iok #1 and duress#2 before the first therapy. Im only on six discard 2 needle 2 decay main, currently i have 3 flex slots in the board that ive dedicated to control matchups but i could see having the second duress/iok over what is currently 2 bobs. The two bobs may be better as sylvan libraries tho.

how about 4 hymns to replace both IoK and Duress?

[Zooligan]

With Hymn you are gambling that they will discard the thing you need them to discard. Generally they will discard dups or extra lands. If you can hit them with targeted discard after then it is great.

[DNSolver]

There are so few cards that do anything to this deck that Hymn will not do the job most of the time.

[Serch]

Hello all!

I have a doubt about this deck, why in ghost quarter instead of wasteland? I don't understand..

[Xod]

I have a doubt about this deck, why in ghost quarter instead of wasteland? I don't understand..

I was wondering this as well, but if you read the first page, you will understand. :wink:

In short: you're going to put needle on wasteland, so you can use ghostquarter to destroy there maze of ith/Karakas/etc or it can help you fetch your basic forest.

[CovenantElite30]

How to you guys think we fare going up against the 2 new D&T cards from conspiracy?

[Zooligan]

Has anyone put together a list of primary and secondary Needle targets for matchups with poplular decks? For example against D&T if you are going in blind do you name Wasteland first, or Aether Vial?

[Claymore]

This deck seems a little more fortunate against DnT's new cards.

Recruiter into Flickerwisp is dangerous still, but Not of This World can still counter that if you're running it - although the chump block hurts. This may simply be too slow.

Prelate of the Void doesn't seem to impact this deck as much as RG Lands. They can put it to 1 to stop discard and Crop, but they shut off their own Swords. It stops Needle, but I imagine Needle would come down much sooner. Putting it on 2 stops Scrying and Into the North, but can still naturally draw or Crop Rotate into necessary lands.

Very strong cards, but not as back breaking as Prelate on 1 or 2 against RG Lands (Gamble and Crop Rotate or Punishing Fire and Loam).

[Negator77']

With Hymn you are gambling that they will discard the thing you need them to discard. Generally they will discard dups or extra lands. If you can hit them with targeted discard after then it is great.

This. Plus it doesn't fit into the decks better draws. The turn 1 discard spell into turn two combo lets you see if the coast is clear, take counters/answers, win. Hymn does not fit there. In a grindier version, Hymn is probably great. In any of the turbo versions, the 1 drop targeted discard spells are better.


How to you guys think we fare going up against the 2 new D&T cards from conspiracy?

The recruiter is an issue if the standard D+T shell ends up going with a super light splash for a one of Magus of the Moon (Cavern on human, etc). It adds another layer that is difficult to play through. Slowing down and winning sideboard games with disruption spells works right now against mono white. Imo, it is the best plan in the match-up currently since trying to kill them fast is so unlikely to work. That plan becomes miserable if they are splashing a blood moon on legs that can be protected by Mother of Runes too.


Has anyone put together a list of primary and secondary Needle targets for matchups with poplular decks? For example against D&T if you are going in blind do you name Wasteland first, or Aether Vial?

I would never ever blind name against D+T on an early turn unless you absolutely have to or can play around all the other problem cards but one. T1 name Wasteland, they slam Karakas and vice versa. Plus, depending on the context of our hands, many cards are quality names. Is the game going to drag out a bit, naming Vial to fight tempo and flickerwisp happens. Forcing them to hard cast their threats can open up windows to go for it with a protection spell. Naming Port and even SFM or equipment happens from time to time. You really need to either wait to see the problem card(s) in play or see their hand with discard and know what to name before acting in most cases. Sometimes you get forced into a spot where you have to guess(like you lose to Wasteland on the spot if they have it), but that is really context specific.

The only cards I routinely name in the dark are Top against Miracles and Wasteland against Delver. There are some obvious calls against fringe decks like Goblin Charbelcher in Belcher on t1. If you have them or bring them in for a specific card like Sneak Attack, then that one can be named in the dark too (although Griselbrand is a good name there as well). Did you have any specific match-ups you were thinking about?

[Zooligan]

No specific situations. I'm just starting to pick up DD and was looking for some general guidelines for Needle targets. It's just kind of the way I process how to play a deck, constructing a general framework and matrix of options and then figuring out the specifics from there.

[Negator77']

No specific situations. I'm just starting to pick up DD and was looking for some general guidelines for Needle targets. It's just kind of the way I process how to play a deck, constructing a general framework and matrix of options and then figuring out the specifics from there.

Off the top of my head, here are some of the main decks I bring Needles in against and general names:

Miracles - S.D. Top the majority of the time asap. After that, it's probably Jace, especially if you think they can set up any kind of blocking situation where you can't use Sejiri Steppe safely (Clique to block with white up for STP, Angel token in play and you are worried about Venser or Clique, etc.) There are rare corner case scenarios where you can maybe cut them off of white naming a fetch.

Delver - Wasteland basically all day every day. As long as you have enough lands and can get away with exposing one of your first land drops to Wasteland, I like waiting until turn 2 if you are on the draw to play around daze. On the play, it gets slammed turn 1. I've named Deathrite and even fetches on rare occasions.

Eldrazi - This match-up depends on the version. Wasteland is still probably #1. Karakas, Eldrazi Displacer, and Endbringer are all cards to keep in mind as well. Its a match-up where there is often a tension between blind naming and waiting. Blind naming Wasteland on turn 1 and them playing Karakas is miserable and I've been on the receiving end of that one. The flip side of that is that waiting can burn you badly if they Chalice on 1 and we don't have Decay or Hexmage or if a turn 2 Thought Knot Seer takes the Needle.

Lands - It varies every game in this match-up. Frequent names include Wasteland, Port, Karakas (mostly post board nowadays), Maze, and Stage (if you have the Hexmage path esp). Letting the game develop and figuring out what you need to deal with is often the correct path.

Death and Taxes - Wasteland, Karakas, Vial, Port, Equipment, SFM, Mom, etc.

[CovenantElite30]

Hey guys wanted to let you know I Top 4 a 1k eternal extravaganza today with Dark Depths. I'll post my deck list and quick tournament report later. My only lose today was to the same guy playing deck in Swiss and in top 4 :-(. Any help on the matchup would be great, it felt very unwinnable.

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[hymnyou]

top8'ed a local monthly this weekend

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=13309&d=278135&f=LE

[molaboy]

has anybody tried replacing either the petal or guide for deathrite shaman?

[Serch]

Hey guys wanted to let you know I Top 4 a 1k eternal extravaganza today with Dark Depths. I'll post my deck list and quick tournament report later. My only lose today was to the same guy playing deck in Swiss and in top 4 :-(. Any help on the matchup would be great, it felt very unwinnable.

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Share with us your list ;)

[CovenantElite30]

Share with us your list ;)

Sorry for the delay. I was planning on writing up a report as well.

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Crop Rotation
3 Sylvan Scrying
3 Into the North
3 Not of This World
4 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Pithing Needle
1 Steely Resolve
4 Lotus Petal

4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Forest

sideboard
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Crucible of Worlds


Changes I would make would be to drop the 1 Crucible of Worlds for another Pithing Needle. Pithing needle is so important to name wasteland, maze, karakas.

[Mr. Froggy]

This deck has been running rampant on MTGO! Keep it up guys!

[CovenantElite30]

This deck has been running rampant on MTGO! Keep it up guys!

The deck feels well positioned in the meta right now especially on MTGO.

I would say Lands and D&T are the 2 hard options. I know people have had issues with ANT but post sideboard I feel like its in our favor.

[Zooligan]

This deck has been running rampant on MTGO! Keep it up guys!

Someone needs to post some gameply vids to youtube. I still feel like I'm playing this deck far from optimally.

[ComplexPants]

Just picked this deck up online and I love playing it. It is just brutally efficient. However, if you can't fire off dark depths, what is the backup plan? I used to play twin in Modern and loved it because it could win through tempo plays while threatening the combo. I know hexmage beats can be a thing, but I feel like once we try to combo off we win or die.

I saw some versions that play bob or DRS. Why did those get taken out of the deck? They seem like a good option to have some tempo and get around things like ensnaring bridge.

Also, what do you guys think about winter orb in the sideboard?


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[TLK]

Sorry for the delay. I was planning on writing up a report as well.

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Crop Rotation
3 Sylvan Scrying
3 Into the North
3 Not of This World
4 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Pithing Needle
1 Steely Resolve
4 Lotus Petal

4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Forest

sideboard
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Crucible of Worlds


Changes I would make would be to drop the 1 Crucible of Worlds for another Pithing Needle. Pithing needle is so important to name wasteland, maze, karakas.

How has Chalice out of the sideboard been with so many 1-drops main?

[supremePINEAPPLE]

If you want a deck that can play a real game or combo out then you probably don't want to be on the aggressive list since hexmage and ESG beats are just as bad as they sound.

The bob/deathrite versions are still running around, they just don't seem to be nearly as popular as the combo list. The main trade-off between them is speed and resiliency so you may end up liking the slower builds a little better if you value having a backup plan and playing actual magic cards.

[Sengir]

Hey guys wanted to let you know I Top 4 a 1k eternal extravaganza today with Dark Depths. I'll post my deck list and quick tournament report later. My only lose today was to the same guy playing deck in Swiss and in top 4 :-(. Any help on the matchup would be great, it felt very unwinnable.

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Yeah sorry about not splitting at top 4. I wanted that bye. You did have some neat foil cards :D

[ComplexPants]

If you want a deck that can play a real game or combo out then you probably don't want to be on the aggressive list since hexmage and ESG beats are just as bad as they sound.

The bob/deathrite versions are still running around, they just don't seem to be nearly as popular as the combo list. The main trade-off between them is speed and resiliency so you may end up liking the slower builds a little better if you value having a backup plan and playing actual magic cards.

I realize this is the super aggressive lands build, just seeing if there was a plan B. Slowly working towards control lands too. Damn them ports and diamonds being expensive!

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I realize this is the super aggressive lands build, just seeing if there was a plan B. Slowly working towards control lands too. Damn them ports and diamonds being expensive!I was talking about slower versions of the dark depths deck like what hymnyou posted a little ways up. They are playing things like bob, sylvan library, and deathrite instead of some of the acceleration or enablers.

[apple713]

I was talking about slower versions of the dark depths deck like what hymnyou posted a little ways up. They are playing things like bob, sylvan library, and deathrite instead of some of the acceleration or enablers.

Slower versions of the deck wont do much better. If to want a slower control version you could just play lands. However there isnt much gained from it. Lands shares the same struggles as this deck but is slower and more grindy. It has slghtly better creature matches but creature decks arnt really our weakness, so that benefit is negligible.

[CovenantElite30]

Slower versions of the deck wont do much better. If to want a slower control version you could just play lands. However there isnt much gained from it. Lands shares the same struggles as this deck but is slower and more grindy. It has slghtly better creature matches but creature decks arnt really our weakness, so that benefit is negligible.
I agree. I've tried out the 3 main versions (Turbo, BG and BUG). Out of the 3 I've tried the turbo version has given me the best results. Between paper and online I've played around 50 matches and am at a 67 win percentage. The turbo version is faster and just steals wins.

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[ComplexPants]

I think I am around 80% match wins right now, my my only loss to miracles because I miss played. Just a random question, do you think this deck is doing well because people don't know how to play against it or just because it is so consistent and fast. I am currently planning on taking the deck to eternal weekend and would like to be competitive in the open event.

Also, how do you guys handle Ensnaring bridge once it hits the field? Hope you get an abrupt?


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[molaboy]

I think I am around 80% match wins right now, my my only loss to miracles because I miss played. Just a random question, do you think this deck is doing well because people don't know how to play against it or just because it is so consistent and fast. I am currently planning on taking the deck to eternal weekend and would like to be competitive in the open event.

Also, how do you guys handle Ensnaring bridge once it hits the field? Hope you get an abrupt?


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thats just tough luck having 8 1cmc discard spells to get that, same as blood moon.

[CovenantElite30]

I think I am around 80% match wins right now, my my only loss to miracles because I miss played. Just a random question, do you think this deck is doing well because people don't know how to play against it or just because it is so consistent and fast. I am currently planning on taking the deck to eternal weekend and would like to be competitive in the open event.

Also, how do you guys handle Ensnaring bridge once it hits the field? Hope you get an abrupt?


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I found myself losing to wasteland most of the time if I didn't have the combo early.

You have to get needle down or combo before they can wasteland you.

If your playing against white decks obviously make sure you have protection before you combo.

Against miracles I generally just name top. That's why needle is so important and why I want a 4th in the board.

[Uboh]

I'm just getting back into legacy after a 4 year break and I don't have many resources at the moment, so I wanted to know: how essential is Chalice of the Void in the sideboard? I've noticed every build I've seen of Turbo Depths runs it, but I'm not sure exactly what it's there for. What matchups is it used in? And how much of an upside is it to play it on 1 while we run so many 1 cmc spells ourselves?

[molaboy]

I'm just getting back into legacy after a 4 year break and I don't have many resources at the moment, so I wanted to know: how essential is Chalice of the Void in the sideboard? I've noticed every build I've seen of Turbo Depths runs it, but I'm not sure exactly what it's there for. What matchups is it used in? And how much of an upside is it to play it on 1 while we run so many 1 cmc spells ourselves?

its more against ANT, TES and SnT decks. Chalice for zero then one, to lockdown most of their mana enables and spells. Helps us since we are racing to combo first.

[ComplexPants]

Would anyone consider running choke in the board? Seems like a nasty turn 1-2 play. That would devastate miracles, delver, deathblade decks. Not sure if it is totally needed though with the 4x needles.


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[DNSolver]

To me, Choke seems like it would only be good against decks that we already roll pretty hard.

[Serch]

How important is to include maze and a single sphere of resistance in the sideboard? are absolutely necessary? I don't get the point.. :frown:

Another thing.. pros and cons to run steely resolve in the main? or maybe is better in the side?

[DNSolver]

The single Sphere of Resistance is just another Chalice of the Void effect against spell-based combo decks. The singleton Maze can be tutored for with any of our land searches and gets boarded in against just about every deck with creatures. You could instead run it in the main over Bojuka Bog.

Steely Resolve probably changes the Death and Taxes matchup drastically. Could be good as a 2-of in the sideboard or split between main and side if you cut some bad cards.

[-Spooky-]

its more against ANT, TES and SnT decks. Chalice for zero then one, to lockdown most of their mana enables and spells. Helps us since we are racing to combo first.

Actually the primary reason for Chalice in the board (though it does help immensely against combo) was for miracles. It improves the match up tremendously.

The original versions of the deck (that used to run 4 Simian Spirit guide!!) ran 4 Steely Resolve. To be honest that was a long time ago and I had forgotten about the card. I wonder if its time to test it again, as I can see it being very helpful against DnT.

[adrieng]

Not of this world is better than steely resolve, I have tested steely resolve during the first version of the decks and the card is too slow doesn't answer flickerwisp on steely + mother+flying blockers
where you can't give pro white with sejirii steppe.
The best way to beat death and taxes is a playset of not of this world true story.

I would be gratefull if my last version of the deck is changed in the primer. I am on that and haven't changed the deck for like 5 months now while still testing other stuff.
Might update to some bayou cause TT doesn't see much play anymore but there is still infect with submerge in side though.
I don't know why more people plays expedition map this card is better than sylvan scrying.
A turn one expedtion map with a stage or urborg, is often a turn 3 token so it needs to be fow if opponent doesn't have the wasteland.

And yes the best way to beat miracle is having both surgical and chalice in side and answers to CB with decay/grips. Not sure we want four of each.




4 Vampire Hexmage
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Crop Rotation
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Ghost Quarter
1 Forest
3 Llanowar Wastes
1 Khalni Garden
4 Mana Confluence
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage

SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 2 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Not of This World
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Krosan Grip

[ComplexPants]

What do you play chalice on against miracles? 1 or 2?


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[adrieng]

chalice @1 shut off swords+bs+ponder+top
the best you can do is turn one needle/map/duress on urborg/thespian
turn two chalice@1
turn three four token

they need their disenchant/wear tear/fow to have an answer

[apple713]

I'm just getting back into legacy after a 4 year break and I don't have many resources at the moment, so I wanted to know: how essential is Chalice of the Void in the sideboard? I've noticed every build I've seen of Turbo Depths runs it, but I'm not sure exactly what it's there for. What matchups is it used in? And how much of an upside is it to play it on 1 while we run so many 1 cmc spells ourselves?

its just really good at what it does. I don't really know how expensive they are but id say they are pretty important. See adrieng's response below. I almost always play it for 1. Only rare situations would have me play it for 0. There are a few situations I play it for 2. When i'm playing against lands (punishing fire and life from the loam), against tees decks because they don't run 1 drops, and probably some other matches I'm not thinking of right now. Oh ya, Against burn sometimes for price of progress.


How important is to include maze and a single sphere of resistance in the sideboard? are absolutely necessary? I don't get the point.. :frown:

Another thing.. pros and cons to run steely resolve in the main? or maybe is better in the side?

i've never really found maze all that useful. Its great if you draw into it but id rather just have what i need to win instead of something that prolongs the game. See adrieng's response on steely. If you want to buy time, id say that chalice does a better job.


Not of this world is better than steely resolve, I have tested steely resolve during the first version of the decks and the card is too slow doesn't answer flickerwisp on steely + mother+flying blockers
where you can't give pro white with sejirii steppe.
The best way to beat death and taxes is a playset of not of this world true story.

I would be gratefull if my last version of the deck is changed in the primer.
[/CARDS]

updated primer with your current list posted here


chalice @1 shut off swords+bs+ponder+top
the best you can do is turn one needle/map/duress on urborg/thespian
turn two chalice@1
turn three four token

they need their disenchant/wear tear/fow to have an answer

good reasons to run Chalice

[Zooligan]

Got utterly destroyed by Big Red Sneak Attack. Even with Thoughseizes and T3 combo pieces in hand.

[ComplexPants]

Got utterly destroyed by Big Red Sneak Attack. Even with Thoughseizes and T3 combo pieces in hand.

Big read (and painter) can be a real challenge because of turn 1 blood moon. Naturally a bad matchup because of land hate.

Hey, quick question, vesuva doesn't work with the combo because it copies as it entered the battlefield right? I was starring at it last night and thinking that plus crop rotation could be epic.

[Negator77']

Hey, quick question, vesuva doesn't work with the combo because it copies as it entered the battlefield right? I was starring at it last night and thinking that plus crop rotation could be epic.

Vesuva does not work with the combo because it would enter play as Dark Depths with the counters. Stage works because it is already in play when it copies Dark Depths. Vesuva can be useful against decks like lands where they have lots of great targets to copy. In general though, the uses are more corner case (like say a 2nd copy of bog or steppe in odd scenarios) than necessary.

[DNSolver]

Thoughts on Ancient Tomb in this deck? Pulling some Lands tech for this deck.

For turn 3 combos, it doubles as another Urborg in that you can use it to activate Stage on Depths with one land.

It also makes your Crop Rotations double as fast mana post board for playing Chalice on one on turn 1. You don't need a spirit guide or petal to do this, just a crop rotation, if you have Ancient Tomb in the deck.

If maindeck, could allow Needle plus Map on the same turn.

[molaboy]

played a 19 man monthly legacy tourney first time with this deck and its amazingly fun to play. a couple of advantages maybe because they assume we are playing the slow controllish lands deck and they are not familiar with some of our cute plays and the interactions (specially not of this world).

2-0 (1-0) against animator

discard discard then he got tyrant first but ran out of gas to bounce my permanents and i was able to resolve another marit lage after he bounced of the first one. game 2 is easy mull to leyline for me.

2-1 (2-0) Infect

i had a god draw, play first and keeping. Dark Depths, petal, petal, hexmage... i thought of doing it end of turn but was scared of stifle or wasteland and my hand is allin material so i went for it.... turn 1 marit lage! he probes me and conceeded..

SB i didnt know what deck he has and assumed maybe SnT, Storm or Delver so i board in my chalices. apparently he is on infect and i died on turn 2 when he forced my turn 1 chalice, would have won if i did.

game 3 i played a bit tight and controllish with turn 1 chalice w/o combo. Early crop to maze helped me a lot to buy time for marit lage and swing back.

2-1 (3-0) eldrazi

game one on play with combo is easy. game 2 he TKS me to take hexmage with wasteland and karakas backup so i cant do much.

game 3, kept a hand with 2 depths, hexmage, urborg, tutors. i thought i can race him but he played wasteland early followed by karakas and i cant find my pithing needles!!! i decided to crop rotate for maze to stall the 4/4 endless one attacker but he dropped an reality smasher.

here is the game winning play, i drew and played thespian so my board is urborg, thespian, depths, maze, forest and hexmage with elvish guide, depths and NotW in my hand.. im down to 2. he has wasteland, karakas, 4/4 endless, reality smasher, land land... and declared attack

before blockers i sac hexmage to remove the counters from DD, he confirmed that my token is legendary and he said ok to resolved, ability on stack he wastelanded my maze, i responded by untapping the endless one, token appears he tried to bounce by karakas, i responded by NotW, declared blocker on reality smasher... survives and swings back FTW! awesome feeling. :)

i have to go off that turn and i have a couple of lines to take depending on his move but i think i can get marit lage even if he attack first respond with wasteland on depths, i will copy with thespian and still can counter karakas.

ID ID for the next two rounds and split the top8 prizes, very boring waiting for 2 hours to split and they gave me a look when i said i wanted to play for more and not to split. haha

here's my list.

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage

3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Senjiri Steppe
1 Maze of Ith
1 Ghost Quarter

4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Crop Rotation
3 Into the North

3 Pithing Needle
3 Not of This World
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Tabernacle

[ComplexPants]

What made you go 4 leyline? Expecting dredge and reanimator in your meta? I am currently playing surgical instead of leyline.


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[Negator77']

Thoughts on Ancient Tomb in this deck? Pulling some Lands tech for this deck.

For turn 3 combos, it doubles as another Urborg in that you can use it to activate Stage on Depths with one land.

It also makes your Crop Rotations double as fast mana post board for playing Chalice on one on turn 1. You don't need a spirit guide or petal to do this, just a crop rotation, if you have Ancient Tomb in the deck.

If maindeck, could allow Needle plus Map on the same turn.

Its something I've considered, but never actually tested mainly because chalice isn't in the board of my version taking away some of the Tombs utility. Tomb is interesting though, the life loss is unlikely to be relevant in most match-ups and it does also play through Daze very nicely with Map/Needle on turn 1. A turn 2 board of Tomb and one of either Stage or Depths won't set very many alarm bells off either at first. I doubt many people would play around the Crop + Guide combo in that spot until they've seen it happen. Some may even consider wasting the Tomb or combo land in that spot leading to a gross blowout.

[molaboy]

What made you go 4 leyline? Expecting dredge and reanimator in your meta? I am currently playing surgical instead of leyline.


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yes, a fair number of animator and dredge and also hits RG Lands.
I find it easier because they cant counter it and almost auto win against animator and dredge.

[apple713]

yes, a fair number of animator and dredge and also hits RG Lands.
I find it easier because they cant counter it and almost auto win against animator and dredge.

Chalice is probably just as good if not better against those matches. It can be cast before turn 4 and is still useful where as leyline is dead. Chalice also has other applications that leyline doesnt.


Thoughts on Ancient Tomb in this deck? Pulling some Lands tech for this deck.

For turn 3 combos, it doubles as another Urborg in that you can use it to activate Stage on Depths with one land.

It also makes your Crop Rotations double as fast mana post board for playing Chalice on one on turn 1. You don't need a spirit guide or petal to do this, just a crop rotation, if you have Ancient Tomb in the deck.

If maindeck, could allow Needle plus Map on the same turn.

You could run ancient tomb but it could we can your man I base below the recommended level. If you check primer I've outlined the minimum Manno face that you should kind of use as a guideline. If you go below the amount of wins that produce Black or green then you're going to start risking not being able to cast your critical spells in exchange for a possible slight advantage in very narrow cases.

[molaboy]

Chalice is probably just as good if not better against those matches. It can be cast before turn 4 and is still useful where as leyline is dead. Chalice also has other applications that leyline doesnt.



You could run ancient tomb but it could we can your man I base below the recommended level. If you check primer I've outlined the minimum Manno face that you should kind of use as a guideline. If you go below the amount of wins that produce Black or green then you're going to start risking not being able to cast your critical spells in exchange for a possible slight advantage in very narrow cases.

I also have 4 chalices. :) my winrate with those matches significantly increases with Leyline.
Those along with TES and ANT are the matches im very cautious of.

[Noloam_]

Hi guys,

im new to this deck. im planning on leaving the eldrazi camp. Does anybody have a sideboardguide for me?

thank you!

the whole Not of This World thing main, makes the least sense for an outsider. Why whould you play a card that is blank in more than +/- 70% of your matches?

and why the chalices over thorns? the deck has infinite 1 drops

[apple713]

Hi guys,

im new to this deck. im planning on leaving the eldrazi camp. Does anybody have a sideboardguide for me?

thank you!

the whole Not of This World thing main, makes the least sense for an outsider. Why whould you play a card that is blank in more than +/- 70% of your matches?

and why the chalices over thorns? the deck has infinite 1 drops

No sb guide because the ild one was out of date. Also there are alot of variations of sideboards so having a sinple guide wouldnt be that iseful.

Not of this world is equivalent to running force of will / counterspells in a combo combo deck like high tide or sneak and show. Traditional combo decks have to worry about successfully casting a spell to win so they need a counterspell to push it through and make sure it resolves. In dark depths our combo is basically uncounterable because you cant really prevent a land drop, so our equivalent would be having the token removed from the game. Since counterspells cant target abilities, not of this world does exactly that. Although counter spells can prevent things like of swords to plowshares it Missed cards like maze of ith and karakas. Notw also stops flicker wisp. Although it might not seem that useful because it is wasted in a lot of matches the matches where it's not needed are generally easy and you can afford to have a dead card in your deck because you already have good matchup versus them .

[Noloam_]

Thanks for that


do you guys sometimes board out the steppen and/or the bog? because the landcount is already low i.m.o.

[Xod]

Hi guys,

Build the deck, played in a local event last week and will play in one this Friday.

I play the Turbo variant, 3 ITN, 3 Needle, 3 NOTW, 4 ESG, no BoB's or DRS.

Just before the general acknowledgement that Steely Resolve is a 'bad' card, I bought a couple to test them out. So (if I get them by mail) I would like to put one in the side or even one main. If not, I put the 4th NotW in the side.

Point is, steely resolves provides a semi-permanent NotW, with the downside that you can't use sejirre steppe any more. But in a matchup against D&T, where they have multiple answers, isn't a 'permanent' solution against there answers better that a one time shot with NotW? I would still keep them in. To kill/stop or token then they need an answer AND they need to be able to vial in flickerwisp. And even then, we could still have a NotW in hand as backup.

Or am I completly wrong? Because I heard Negator say that in this matchup he waits for the opening. In that case, I would asume Steely Resolve definitly has value.

What do you guys think?

Btw, last week I played 2-2, winning against ghostbusters (was tight, try to go of 2 times without protection and got Sworded and with the hexproof, flying, flash creatures, it wasn't easy to get through), winning against UR Burn (token turn 2 and turn 3)
Losing against Miracles, good game, but game 3 I had an answer for Blood Moon one, but couldn't assemble the combo before the second Moon hit. And then it was over to recover. Lost 1-2
Losing to infect (0-2) discarded a infecter (should have picked the brainstorm), could assemble the combo turn 3, but then I could not play my discard. But I know what he had in his hand and normally coudln't kill me, thanks to the BS he went off turn 3. Game 2, I could assemble the combo turn 3, he went off in turn 2... I already mulled the second game to 6 to find discard/removal/better hand, maybe should have gone to 5 to have an answer, the 6 was a good hand to go off (with protection) but no disruption.

So I blame it all on the pilot :-D This Friday hopefully I keep it together and don't play so risky (which I did all evening)

[Serch]

In dark depths our combo is basically uncounterable because you cant really prevent a land drop, so our equivalent would be having the token removed from the game.

But if our opponent has a wasteland, he can waste our dark depths in response to our thespian's ability to stop the combo. :/

[ComplexPants]

But if our opponent has a wasteland, he can waste our dark depths in response to our thespian's ability to stop the combo. :/

Which is why there are 4 pithing needles in the 75.

In practice matches on MTGO I have a pretty high win percentage now. However, what kills me quickly is when wasteland + loam come together. With punishing loam being a deck these days, I seem to run into that a bit. I am debating using Leyline just to hedge against reanimator, dredge and loam decks or things like delver with snaps and fish.

[ComplexPants]

@Noloam

I think I just played you on MTGO. Those were good games. Made lots of mistakes. I think if I scryed for a karakas, and then crop rotated into depths I could have baited you, but those 3 NOFW were murder.

[Negator77']

Thanks for that


do you guys sometimes board out the steppen and/or the bog? because the landcount is already low i.m.o.

I sideboard out Bog a decent amount. The only deck I regularly side out Steppe against is Eldrazi. If you have Ghost Quarter or an extra Wasteland in the sideboard, you can swap that in without going down a land.

[TLK]

Keep in mind that Steppe doesn't really count as a mana-producing land (despite it giving you a colorless, essentially) since it comes into play tapped and only taps for white. If you side out Steppe you don't really need to worry about compensating for it with another land.

[DNSolver]

Just 4-1'd another league with this deck after putting it down for a while (for school, not for another deck).

R1: Miracles
Lost game 1 (pretty convinced that G1 is unfavorable). Won a quick G2 but G3 dragged out and opponent set up Clique + Karakas to semi-lock me out.

R2: Manaless Dredge
Essentially a bye. G1 Needle, in response he Phantasmagorians, after that resolves I name Phantasmagorian and then rotate for bog. I combo two turns later. Similiar affair in G2 where I keep Hexmage, Swamp, Petal, Depths, Stage, Scrying, Ghost Quarter. I figure I'm going to be on the play, so I can turn 1 Hexmage and stop Bridges, turn 2 combo, turn 3 ghost quarter myself to scrying for sejiri steppe to get through Narcomoebas. He whiffs off his first dredge and dies.

R3: Miracles (same opponent)
G1 was pretty easy, Not of This World doing work here. Ghost Quarter was Strip Mine because the opponent wanted to keep his top 3 cards. G2 I Needle top, then Chalice for 1, then play land go for a few turns. I am better at playing land go than he is, and he dies with 2 StP in his hand.
Current sideboard plan for this matchup: -8 discard -1 Bog -1 fast mana +4 Chalice +4 Decay +1 Ancient Tomb +1 Needle (the 4th one)

R4: Burn
Pretty easy 2-0, very little tactical strategy here except playing around Price of Progress and bolt on Hexmage.

R5: Maverick
G1 he plays turn 2 Thalia, but I have turn 2 combo with Hexmage anyway. He plays Wasteland. But then I unveil my ace in the hole: Stage to get around his Wasteland. Then at his endstep I tap my three lands to try to combo. He draws a card with Horizon Canopy, lets my combo happen, then Swords on my guy. In response I pitch spirit guide to Not of This World his thing, and he complains.
G2 I win on my opponent's turn 1.

My friends were around when I was playing this league. They suggested I cut the 3 Not of This World to get 3 Sylvan Library in the main because casting that turn 1 is big game in almost any matchup. While this is correct, Not of This World won me 2 games and was relevant in the other match against Miracles because he had to take it with Vendilion Clique to stop me from countering his Karakas.

They also suggested Loam, but I'm not ready to jump into that deck yet. Then I probably start needing things like Wasteland or Exploration or something.

[Noloam_]

@Noloam

I think I just played you on MTGO. Those were good games. Made lots of mistakes. I think if I scryed for a karakas, and then crop rotated into depths I could have baited you, but those 3 NOFW were murder.

hehehe yes. it was fun :)!

[Noloam_]

I sideboard out Bog a decent amount. The only deck I regularly side out Steppe against is Eldrazi. If you have Ghost Quarter or an extra Wasteland in the sideboard, you can swap that in without going down a land.

thanks for that. what is your sideboard strategy vs D&T?

[Xod]

What do you guys think?


No other thoughts on Steely Resolve?

[l33twash0r]

Hi guys,

im new to this deck. im planning on leaving the eldrazi camp. Does anybody have a sideboardguide for me?

thank you!

the whole Not of This World thing main, makes the least sense for an outsider. Why whould you play a card that is blank in more than +/- 70% of your matches?

and why the chalices over thorns? the deck has infinite 1 drops

Just curious did you become bored of Eldrazi or meta game shifts made you change deck?

[Noloam_]

Just curious did you become bored of Eldrazi or meta game shifts made you change deck?

i got kinda bored. you get wrecked by grixis 80% of the time. The deck just loses to the most stupid stuff. It seems that the depths combo is quite strong

[ComplexPants]

Just 4-1'd another league with this deck after putting it down for a while (for school, not for another deck).

R1: Miracles
Lost game 1 (pretty convinced that G1 is unfavorable). Won a quick G2 but G3 dragged out and opponent set up Clique + Karakas to semi-lock me out.

R2: Manaless Dredge
Essentially a bye. G1 Needle, in response he Phantasmagorians, after that resolves I name Phantasmagorian and then rotate for bog. I combo two turns later. Similiar affair in G2 where I keep Hexmage, Swamp, Petal, Depths, Stage, Scrying, Ghost Quarter. I figure I'm going to be on the play, so I can turn 1 Hexmage and stop Bridges, turn 2 combo, turn 3 ghost quarter myself to scrying for sejiri steppe to get through Narcomoebas. He whiffs off his first dredge and dies.

R3: Miracles (same opponent)
G1 was pretty easy, Not of This World doing work here. Ghost Quarter was Strip Mine because the opponent wanted to keep his top 3 cards. G2 I Needle top, then Chalice for 1, then play land go for a few turns. I am better at playing land go than he is, and he dies with 2 StP in his hand.
Current sideboard plan for this matchup: -8 discard -1 Bog -1 fast mana +4 Chalice +4 Decay +1 Ancient Tomb +1 Needle (the 4th one)

R4: Burn
Pretty easy 2-0, very little tactical strategy here except playing around Price of Progress and bolt on Hexmage.

R5: Maverick
G1 he plays turn 2 Thalia, but I have turn 2 combo with Hexmage anyway. He plays Wasteland. But then I unveil my ace in the hole: Stage to get around his Wasteland. Then at his endstep I tap my three lands to try to combo. He draws a card with Horizon Canopy, lets my combo happen, then Swords on my guy. In response I pitch spirit guide to Not of This World his thing, and he complains.
G2 I win on my opponent's turn 1.

My friends were around when I was playing this league. They suggested I cut the 3 Not of This World to get 3 Sylvan Library in the main because casting that turn 1 is big game in almost any matchup. While this is correct, Not of This World won me 2 games and was relevant in the other match against Miracles because he had to take it with Vendilion Clique to stop me from countering his Karakas.

They also suggested Loam, but I'm not ready to jump into that deck yet. Then I probably start needing things like Wasteland or Exploration or something.

Would you mind posting your list? I am curious about the ancient tomb and how you worked it into your deck.

I am debating on putting a tabernacle in the 75, and not sure what our flex spots are. Based off of some other posts, I am also thinking about dropping 2 duress for 2 Library's.

Also, I think we need to get a SBing guide together as well as needle targets.

[Negator77']

Just 4-1'd another league with this deck after putting it down for a while (for school, not for another deck).

R2: Manaless Dredge
Essentially a bye. G1 Needle, in response he Phantasmagorians, after that resolves I name Phantasmagorian and then rotate for bog. I combo two turns later. Similiar affair in G2 where I keep Hexmage, Swamp, Petal, Depths, Stage, Scrying, Ghost Quarter. I figure I'm going to be on the play, so I can turn 1 Hexmage and stop Bridges, turn 2 combo, turn 3 ghost quarter myself to scrying for sejiri steppe to get through Narcomoebas. He whiffs off his first dredge and dies.


This may have solved something that was puzzling me. I also played against Manaless Dredge on Thursday night and he straight up conceded the match after game 1. I've never had that happen in a league match. I just thought he must have been really pissed about something. I guess possibly hitting depths back to back might do that. It has to be the most lopsided match-up I've ever seen in Legacy. Tons of land tutors and Bog are total blowouts and even the random discard spells are all essentially time walks. Hexmage removing bridges (while creating marit Lage) if they manage to dodge the graveyard hate is just the icing.


thanks for that. what is your sideboard strategy vs D&T?

My main configuration is pretty different from what you are running, so I'm not sure it will be all that helpful. My pre Conspiracy plan is -4 Mox Diamond, -1 Bog, -4 Brainstorm, -1 Map, -1 Gemstone. +4 Needle, +2 Decay, +2 Grip, +1 Ghost Quarter, +2 Surgical.


No other thoughts on Steely Resolve?

My biggest problems with Steely Resolve in the D+T match-up are that it is purely post combo help and that they can still brick wall you with a flyer. Sometimes the issue isn't their spell/creature based answers, but their wastelands, Ports, and taxing cards making crop and co harder to set up. Besides that, I'd say about half my wins against that deck involve Steppe in some way. Mother of Runes + a flyer is a real issue and hoping to Decay your way out of that spot if you can't use Steppe because of the shroud granted by Steely Resolve is an issue.

[Xod]

My biggest problems with Steely Resolve in the D+T match-up are that it is purely post combo help and that they can still brick wall you with a flyer. Sometimes the issue isn't their spell/creature based answers, but their wastelands, Ports, and taxing cards making crop and co harder to set up. Besides that, I'd say about half my wins against that deck involve Steppe in some way. Mother of Runes + a flyer is a real issue and hoping to Decay your way out of that spot if you can't use Steppe because of the shroud granted by Steely Resolve is an issue.
Thanks for the helpful feedback!

Played 3-1 last night.
Crazy games, won some games mostly because of my opponents mistakes, NotW literally won me these games. Might even think of using Ancient Stirrings to dig for that alone (but if would be very niche). Lost the game against a pox build, but was so close, really depended on the top deck and he top decked a liliana where I was on 4 life, with him attacking for 4 and I needed to create lage to block... The opportunity to create the second one was there but I needed a mana source, the petal was one deeper...

Also won 2-0 against a Thalia stompy deck because he didn't find the answers and I could crop rotate/needle/NotW for protection while he didn't find enough of his 16 outs. And indeed, it was more the wastelands (didn't have ports) that I had to worry about. Although the other hate cards (STP, mangara, Displacer) where places where steely resolve would definitly help. I got lucky I guess.

Love the deck after 8 games that I played with it. Some have been a absolute blowout, others have been really tight and fun to win/lose. So far still making some mistakes (which is good, because this keeps me interesting to play the deck more).

[DNSolver]

5-0 in a league tonight.

R1: Eldrazi 2-1
G1 was a turn 2 win
G2 he had a pretty nuts draw
G3 turn 1 Needle on Wasteland sealed the deal, despite my opponent casting Oblivion Sower in a desperate attempt to hit Stage + Depths

R2: Grixis Delver 2-0
Not much worth commenting on here.

R3: UR Delver 2-0
I was worried about Vapor Snag, but he never had it.

R4: Infect 2-0
I was worried about Submerge, but I had Not of This World in the one game where it mattered

R5: Show and Tell
G1 was interesting because I thought he was Delver from his opening, then he Show and Tells in an Emrakul to block my 20/20. He then whiffs on his next turn and dies.
G2: I figured he was probably on the newer Sneaky Omni Show lists, so Needle + Karakas wasn't going to cut it. Nevertheless, I had those in my opening hand, along with Map, Thoughtseize, Hexmage, and two other lands. It was a great keep. He does nothing turn 1, so I run my Thoughtseize into a Pierce. Then, I Needle, which resolves, and think about saying Griselbrand or Sneak Attack. I decided on Griselbrand because even if he shows it in he doesn't get anything out of it, and it's still pretty useless if he has Sneak Attack. He EOT Intuitions for S+T, Ponders, plays land, passes. Having drawn Crop Rot and another Needle, I'm feeling pretty good about this. I play map, Needle on Sneak Attack. He cantrips another million times. I draw Depths, so I Crop Rot into Urborg, play Hexmage, Depths, then pass. He Cunning Wishes for Wipe Away to answer Marit Lage, Show and Tells in Omniscience (I put in 2nd Hexmage), then passes. I search for another Depths with Map, make a 20/20. He bounces it in combat. I pass, he whiffs on drawing anything powerful to cast with Omniscience, and the 2nd Lage kills him.

[Motto82]

Hello good people,

After a break of a year not playing Legacy I decided to re-enter the format again. I got bored playing fair decks (Miracles and Death and Taxes) whilst I was playing Naya Loam prior to that. The latter deck I dropped at my countries Nationals years ago after being wrecked two consecutive matches versus Ad Nauseum Tendrils. I did however like that deck a lot and was looking for ‘something with lands’ as I really enjoyed playing the Loam deck back in the day. Then the MTG Goldfish post happened, I looked at the decklist and was sold on what the deck was trying to achieve.
At the last Grand Prix weekend I picked up the last missing cards for the deck and took it to a 1k Event that was hosted in my neighbourhood this weekend. I settled on the exact 75 posted on MTG Goldfish and decided I would make tweaks following my own experience. With no time for testing I did do some goldfishing the night prior to the event to at least get a feel what hands to keep versus unknown deck and which ones to mulligan.
The event itself went as expected – I made a lot of mistakes. I did however refuel my love for the format and instantly fell in love with the deck.
Below I’ll try to reconstruct how my matches played out – mistakes I believe I made and I’ll conclude by bringing up some card choices I’ll consider going forward and to which I would appreciate feedback.

R1 versus Miracles 2-1.
G1. I win the die roll and we have a long game in which I make the silly mistake to t2 Needle his Flooded Strand. It obviously should’ve been put on Sensei’s Diving Top after discarding his 1st Ponder t1. This is what basically costs me the game. He gets the lock out at one point I get to wreck his first Jace with Hexmage but the rest of comboplan just gets plowed or Terminussed away. Silly me, this game appeared very winnable had I resolved the Needle correctly.
G2. I have the combo on t2 and decide to go for it. He doesn’t have an aswer and we’re quickly to g3.
G3 I have the combo on t3 with double Not of this World backup, which he is unable to overcome. This time I did Needle his Top correctly. He dies with one in hand and one in play.
1-0

R2 versus Dredge 0-2
G1 I lose the die roll and t2 he has dredges his whole deck bar 4 cards. Seeing How I can only assemble the combo and not attack before t3 I have to scoop them up.
G2 I make a giant mistake by crop rotating into Bog upon a narcomoeba trigger. He has Therapy in the yard and I assume I have to protect my combo but simply should’ve waited a turn until he had at least 2 Bridges in the yard.
2-0

R3 versus Esper Stoneblade 2-1
G1 I have natural combo on t3 but decide to wait as I know he has a Plow in hand I can’t do anything about for the moment. My opponent however misjudges the deck after resolving a Clique targeting himself bottoming the plow. When he attacks w/ Clique the following Turn I crop rotate into a 20/20 block his Clique and the next turn I swing for lethal.
G2 I resolve a duress t1, he brainstorms in reponse, I get to see a hand with 3 lands a mystic, a clique and a true-name nemesis. This is bad news. Seeing how he neatly put the plow on top of his deck I never get into the game and True-Name carrying a Batterskull finishes me off a couple turns later.
G3. Most likely the most interesting match all day. At one point (sorry I don’t remember which turn anymore)I try to resolve a Chalice on 1. He appears to have 3 (!!) brainstorms in hand and two fetches to go with that. He is forced to play all three trying to find the Force of Will. He doesn’t have it and Chalice resolves. He’s now on the can I block you for eternity gameplan while I try and race his Batterskull. When I make a 20/20 he is able to block with Clique and dump Batterskull into play of a stoneforge activation EOT. In between, I resolve a Hexmage and dumped another Dark Depths on the board. When he attacks with the Batterskull I block with my Hexmage, sac it before damage on my Depths and keep the Untapped Lage token. This way he doesn’t go over 20 damage buying himself a turn and I kill him the turn after.

R4 versus Sneaky Show 0-2
I’ll start by emphasizing I don’t like the favours in this matchup one bit and I’ll mull over some idea’s how to improve this matchup later on.
G1. I make a mistake by taking his brainstorm when I see Show and Tell, Emrakul Griselbrand and a bunch of lands. I assumed I could race him as I was on the play and had the combo as none of his lands were Sol Lands. He naturally draws into it and punishes me for my bad pick/
G2. I discard all his business spells: one Show and Tell and two Sneak Attack leaving him with lands only. He topdecks Blood Moon and well I’m simply dead. I did board in Abrupt Decay but didn’t have it and he really could only win at that point by topdecking Blood Moon, which he did.

R5 versus Sneaky Show 1-2
G1 I race him by comboing on my second turn.
G2 He races me the turn I can go off.
G3 I throw away the game… When he Show and Tells with only two cards in his hand I decide to play nothing. In fact I should’ve dropped Needle naming Griselbrand and would’ve probably won the game on the spot. That was just a terrible mistake on my part and one I’m dedicated to never make it again. I then decide to play the Needle the turn after still, my opponent draws 14 cards and obviously counters the Needle. Then I make another mistake rather than dropping Depths I play a Bayou to keep open crop rotate for Karakas whilst I could’ve played Depths after resolving a Hexmage. The turn after he drops a Sneak Attack and I realize I’m dead. I still get to stall a little as I have both Maze of ith as well as Karakas in play but a hasty Emrakul off two Sneak activations is telling me she doesn’t care.

I figure I am out of contention for prizes with only one round to play and I decide to drop and register for a Legacy rebound event so I get to play a little more when there’s still something at stake. Unfortunately for me the event never fires and I end playing a round of testgames versus some friends (Burn, more Sneaky Show and Infect).
As said, I realize I made rookie mistakes in a couple of games but I’m keen to take stock and not to make them again. I was a little caught up in seeing what state Legacy was in a year after I have left and how to assemble my combo in the best way . I know I could’ve played a lot better. I do however greatly enjoyed playing the deck and will take it to the coming Legacy events I’ll be attending when I’m not occupied playing Modern.

As for the changes I’m considering I’ll share the list I’ve been playing.
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Crop Rotation
3 Into the North
3 Not of this World
4 Lotus Petal
3 Pithing Needle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sejiri Steppe
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian’s Stage
1 Ghost Quarter
SB:
1 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Faerie Macabre
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Pithing Needle

Possible changes – mana:
I’m thinking of trading places between Bojuka Bog and Karakas. The only part I’m very worried about is how awkard the manabase may be as a result. Anyone having any experience with this - I’m open to hearing from your previous experience? I’m quite sure there should be a 4th Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in the deck. I’ve noticed I sometimes end up with too little mana and have have to mull as a result or I don’t have the right colour combination.
As I also want to improve the Show and tell matchup. Would it be any better if I were to cut 3 Bayou’s and 4 Catacombs and go with 4 Gemstone Mine, 2 Copperline Gorge and the 4th Urborg. This grants me 10 sources of red to play postboard Pyroblast (which I am really interested in).
I don’t believe Maze of Ith does enough to warrant a place in the deck. I’m sure it’s great when you’re racing but in general the card doesn’t strike me as majorly appealing, again, please correct me if I’m wrong.


Land Tutors.
I really liked Into the North, I think it perfectly fits the Turbo strategy. I do want some more resiliency against Blood Moon though so I am questioning running a misers Expedition Map instead of a Sylvan Scrying or an Into the North

Discard Suite.
The full 4 copies of Duress might not be what you always want, see the case in which my opponent brainstormed in response leaving me without valid targets. I’m considering cutting one Duress in favour of a singleton Inquisition.

These are my thoughts after a couple of rounds with the deck and look forward to receiving feedback on my thought process – especially with regards to the changes I am considering.

[DNSolver]

I enjoyed the Into the Norths for a while but I eventually cut them for Expedition Maps. When things don't perfectly you really need to be able to get any land in your deck (Ghost Quarter namely)

[ottomanottoman]

Hello, recently started testing this deck on cockatrice. I'm enjoying it as a change of pace from Reanimator. I've been on what looks like a stock turbo list (fetch+bayou, 4 ESG, 4 petal, etc.) with into the north. The fetch manabase feel right because I'm used to fetch manabases but what are the merits to running fastland/rainbow land/pain land manabases besides submerge? With the enemy fastlands coming out this deck could use the BG one instead of copperline gorge.

[Negator77']

Possible changes – mana:
I’m thinking of trading places between Bojuka Bog and Karakas. The only part I’m very worried about is how awkard the manabase may be as a result. Anyone having any experience with this - I’m open to hearing from your previous experience? I’m quite sure there should be a 4th Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in the deck. I’ve noticed I sometimes end up with too little mana and have have to mull as a result or I don’t have the right colour combination.
As I also want to improve the Show and tell matchup. Would it be any better if I were to cut 3 Bayou’s and 4 Catacombs and go with 4 Gemstone Mine, 2 Copperline Gorge and the 4th Urborg. This grants me 10 sources of red to play postboard Pyroblast (which I am really interested in).
I don’t believe Maze of Ith does enough to warrant a place in the deck. I’m sure it’s great when you’re racing but in general the card doesn’t strike me as majorly appealing, again, please correct me if I’m wrong.

Land Tutors.
I really liked Into the North, I think it perfectly fits the Turbo strategy. I do want some more resiliency against Blood Moon though so I am questioning running a misers Expedition Map instead of a Sylvan Scrying or an Into the North



My 2 cents:

Mana - Karakas is not a main deck card at this point. Even decks with way more lands slots like RG Lands often relegate it to the sideboard. It just doesn't do enough in that many match-ups to justify the slot, especially if the way you fit it in is by removing another black source. This version is already very light on colored sources, having 16 each for black and green... 4 of which are one shots for black and 8 of which are one shots for green. If you are going to go the 3+ color route with the manabase to fight certain decks better, blue is the way to go imo. Having access to Brainstorms and Flusterstorms (which beats even a T2 S+T with Force of Will backup) helps more in that kind of match-up than Pyroblast does. If Death and Taxes becomes more prevalent, Sneak and Shows presence in the meta may be reduced anyway for what that's worth. I agree on Maze, it helps mostly in already favorable match-ups.

Tutors - I'll echo what DNSolver said. Finding utility lands is unbelievably important, especially against decks like D+T and Lands. Decreased speed for increased versatility is the trade-off. Map is a fine card as a 1-3 of in these types of decks.

[apple713]

For what its worth i did some poking around in the d&t forum and they are talking about getting wrecked by dread of night. 1 dread shuts off half their deck and 2 dreads shuts off the other half. Currently it looks like they have no way main or sideboard to remove it once it hits play. Answers to it are few and far between thats for sure. Mangara is being cut in favor of all the amazing bullshit they recently got from the new conspiracy set. I expect to see a rise in d&t in the meta.


Quote from d&t forums




Also I think people might be a little too concerned about beating DnT hate before we first solve the first level 'what's the strongest g1 deck' question w/ the new toys. Looks like there were a grand total of 0 DnT decks in the t16 of the Legacy Classic this weekend, so it might take a little bit longer before everyone is playing 4 Dread of Nights in their main.

So that signals to me that even though d&t is a bad match up the infrequency we will see it might not Warrant more sb slots. If d&t does become more prevalent or you have alot in tour meta we should consider adding 4 dread in board. Until then i fear we take the unfavorable matchup as is instead of gimping our other matches by commit 4 dread to sb.

[ComplexPants]

This is what I am running atm, I am basically testing -2 Duress for +2 Library.

4x Vampire Hexmage
4x Elvish Spirit Guide

4x Crop Rotation
4x Sylvan Scrying
3x Into the North
4x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Sylvan Library
4x Lotus Petal
3x Pithing Needle
3x Not of this World

3x Bayou
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Thespian's Stage
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Dark Depths
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Snow-covered Forest
1x Snow-covered Swamp
1x Ghost Quarter

SB
1x Pithing Needle
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Sphere of Resistence
4x Chalice of the Void
1x Maze of Ith
1x Karakas
3x Surgical Extreme



This is my current side board plan, with needle targets:
Miracles: +4 Chalice, +1 Needle, +2 Abrupt, +2 Surgical, -2 IoK, -4 TS, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Petal -1 Sylvan Scrying
Needle: Top, Karakas, Jace

Burn: +4 Chalice, +2 Sphere +1 Maze, +3 Surgical, +3 Decay, -1 Bojuka Bog, -4 TS, -3 NotW, -2 Library, -3 Needle
Needle: Zero

ANT: +4 Chalice, +2 Sphere, -1 Needle, -3 NotW -2 IoK.
Needle: Top, Polluted Delta/Misty Rainforest

Grixis Delver: +4 Chalice, -3NotW, -1 IoK
Needle: Wasteland, DRS

Eldrazi: +1 Maze, +1 Needle, -2 IoK
Needle: Wasteland, Jitte, Eye

Deathblade: +1 Needle, +3 Abrupt, +1 Maze, -1 Bog, -1 Into the North, -1 Sylvan Scrying, -1 Lotus Petal, -1 Spirit Guide
Needle: Wasteland, Stoneforge/Jitte/Sword, DRS

Control Lands: -4 TS, -2 Iok, +1 Needle, +1 Maze, +1 Karakas, +3 Surgical Extraction
Needle: Wasteland, Port, Thespian's Stage

Shardless: +1 Needle, +1 Maze, +3 Abrupt, -1 Sejiri Steppe, -3 Not of this World, -1 TS
Needle: Wasteland, Lily/Jace

Sneak + Show: +2 Sphere, +1 Maze, +1 Karakas, +1 Needle, -1 Bog, -1 Sejiri Steppe, -3 Not of this World
Needle: Gris, Sneak attack


What do you guys think?

[apple713]

Made some changes to the primer. See the change log.

"9/6/16: Added spooky's decklist, removed "Plan B Deck", and added summary of versions. Changed the number Ratio's of match descriptions to lexical descriptions to better represent and describe the matches."

[Negator77']

This is my current side board plan, with needle targets:

Burn: +4 Chalice, +2 Sphere +1 Maze, +3 Surgical, +3 Decay, -1 Bojuka Bog, -4 TS, -3 NotW, -2 Library, -3 Needle
Needle: Zero

Control Lands: -4 TS, -2 Iok, +1 Needle, +1 Maze, +1 Karakas, +3 Surgical Extraction
Needle: Wasteland, Port, Thespian's Stage

Shardless: +1 Needle, +1 Maze, +3 Abrupt, -1 Sejiri Steppe, -3 Not of this World, -1 TS
Needle: Wasteland, Lily/Jace

What do you guys think?

vs Burn - What are you trying to Extract in this MU? As odd as it sounds, TS is pretty good here post board. It often trades 2 life for a 4 or more damage spell like Fireblast or Price of Progress, but more importantly hits Ensnaring Bridge which is one of the few ways I've ever lost to Burn post board. I'd suggest keeping the discard in over the extractions.

vs Lands - Discard is surprisingly good here, especially on the play where it can grab Exploration, Manabond, or a Mox to at times color screw them or slow them down. It grabs tutors and can force a preemptive Crop Rotation as well. Forcing them to crop before they want to, find a Karakas, etc can be very valuable.

vs Shardless - I like having Steppe in against them. One way they can be annoying is by setting up a Strix block followed by a planeswalker (Jace bounce or Lily Sac) to remove the token. Turning all the tutors into Strix answers in addition to Decays is nice. Maze doesn't seem all that necessary since they are so slow.

[Xod]

This is my current side board plan, with needle targets:

What do you guys think?

What do you side for D&T?

[Motto82]

My 2 cents:

Mana - Karakas is not a main deck card at this point. Even decks with way more lands slots like RG Lands often relegate it to the sideboard. It just doesn't do enough in that many match-ups to justify the slot, especially if the way you fit it in is by removing another black source. This version is already very light on colored sources, having 16 each for black and green... 4 of which are one shots for black and 8 of which are one shots for green. If you are going to go the 3+ color route with the manabase to fight certain decks better, blue is the way to go imo. Having access to Brainstorms and Flusterstorms (which beats even a T2 S+T with Force of Will backup) helps more in that kind of match-up than Pyroblast does. If Death and Taxes becomes more prevalent, Sneak and Shows presence in the meta may be reduced anyway for what that's worth. I agree on Maze, it helps mostly in already favorable match-ups.

Tutors - I'll echo what DNSolver said. Finding utility lands is unbelievably important, especially against decks like D+T and Lands. Decreased speed for increased versatility is the trade-off. Map is a fine card as a 1-3 of in these types of decks.

Thanks a bunch for running me through your thought process.
Additional question: how good exactly is Brainstorm in a deck w/ this little amount of fetchlands? Do you reckon crop rotation and other tutor effects make up for that loss in order for Brainstorm to still be really good enough in a deck such as this?
The power of Flusterstorm in painted scenario is uncontested, that's perfectly clear, thanks.


For what its worth i did some poking around in the d&t forum and they are talking about getting wrecked by dread of night. 1 dread shuts off half their deck and 2 dreads shuts off the other half. Currently it looks like they have no way main or sideboard to remove it once it hits play. Answers to it are few and far between thats for sure. Mangara is being cut in favor of all the amazing bullshit they recently got from the new conspiracy set. I expect to see a rise in d&t in the meta.


Quote from d&t forums



So that signals to me that even though d&t is a bad match up the infrequency we will see it might not Warrant more sb slots. If d&t does become more prevalent or you have alot in tour meta we should consider adding 4 dread in board. Until then i fear we take the unfavorable matchup as is instead of gimping our other matches by commit 4 dread to sb.

At the 1k event I attended this weekend it was the 4th deck in presence but none of them made t8 though.
The meta breakdown (for those interested):
Eldrazi 6
Grixis Delver 5
Miracles 5
Death and Taxes 4
Sneak and Show 3
Reanimator 3
4c Loam 2
Dredge 2
Lands 2
Storm 2
Stoneblade 2
BUG delver 2
Burn 2
MUD 2
Turbo Depths 1
A Soldiers Legacy 1
Imperial Painter 1
UW Spirit 1
Grixis Pyromancer 1
UR Delver 1
Infect 1
Throug the Breach 1
The top 8 shaped up like this:
Eldrazi
BladeDrazi
Infect
Storm
Dredge
RUG Delver
Sneak & Show
Burn
So basically no Miracles or Grixis Delver in t8 either... Finals were between Eldrazi and RUG Delver. The latter took down the event.

[ComplexPants]

What do you side for D&T?

I knew I forgot a deck. I will post when I get home from work.

Thanks for the feed back about SB. I have yet to play the deck in paper, and control lands is rare online.

[Motto82]

I knew I forgot a deck. I will post when I get home from work.

Thanks for the feed back about SB. I have yet to play the deck in paper, and control lands is rare online.

I've also noticed you don't board in Abrupt Decay versus Sneak + Show, whereas they tend to board in 2 to 3 Blood Moon, depending on how many copies they have postboard. Other than this they also tend to board in Echoing Truth which would imply cutting Not of this World probably isn't the best idea?

[ComplexPants]

I've also noticed you don't board in Abrupt Decay versus Sneak + Show, whereas they tend to board in 2 to 3 Blood Moon, depending on how many copies they have postboard. Other than this they also tend to board in Echoing Truth which would imply cutting Not of this World probably isn't the best idea?

What would you recommend boarding out to keep the NotW? I think the spheres would be useful, but not killer. I want my discard, would you take out a petal or spirit guide? To be honest I am never quite sure when I should be boarding those out.

[Negator77']

Thanks a bunch for running me through your thought process.
Additional question: how good exactly is Brainstorm in a deck w/ this little amount of fetchlands? Do you reckon crop rotation and other tutor effects make up for that loss in order for Brainstorm to still be really good enough in a deck such as this?
The power of Flusterstorm in painted scenario is uncontested, that's perfectly clear, thanks.


Anytime. Yeah, there are 16 shuffle effects main(6 fetches, 4 crops, 3 Scrying, 3 Map)... That is plenty to consistently be able to shuffle away cards with Brainstorm when needed. Depths decks usually run so many redundant pieces that there is almost always some excess to get rid of, whether that is extra fast mana, extra Urborgs, discard after they have shown no relevant cards, etc. E. Map can be good here since you can sometimes EOT Brainstorm (usually a suspect play), then untap and crack Map if you need to during your upkeep knowing exactly what you need to tutor for after seeing the three extra cards. In an absolute pinch, extracting a random card from our graveyard post board just to get a shuffle is an option. It was downright cringe worthy when the play was made, but I also ended up winning a game recently due to Ghost Quartering myself to shuffle and clear two dead cards. So 16 natural shufflers, 4-5 emergency valve shufflers.

[Motto82]

What would you recommend boarding out to keep the NotW? I think the spheres would be useful, but not killer. I want my discard, would you take out a petal or spirit guide? To be honest I am never quite sure when I should be boarding those out.

Still a bit difficult for me to say as I'm very new with the deck and I am in no way an expert as yet. However, I've played against Sneaky Show a lot in the past as it's the pet deck of one of my mates and from that experience, combined w/ my own analysis of how the matchup plays out I'd be boarding something along these lines:
+ 3 Decay (versus Blood Moon)
+1 Maze of Ith (versus a single Griselbrand, it doesn't really shine in this matchup though but it's interchangeable w/ lands that do even less)
+1 Karakas
-1 Bojuka Bog
-1 Ghost Quarter
-1 Duress
-1 Sylvan Scrying
-1 Sejeri Steppe

I don't think this is 100% correct either but my reasoning is that I want to keep in as much additional mana effects (Spirit Guides and Petals) because of two reasons:
1. It is a race
2. Blood Moon. This at least gives me the colors to use Decay to get out of it if for some reason I needed to tap out.

[adrieng]

With blooming marsh I think I am gone to cut completely the red golgari charm being an ok alternative.
I wanted to write sideboard strategy against the most common matchups :

Miracle : +2 grip + 2NoTW +3 surgical +2 chalice +1/2 golgari charm -4 crop -4 duress -1 therapy -1 scrying

Tempo/ grixis with YP : +2/3 surgical as an answer to wasteland and opponents surgical +2 golcari charm +1 grip (if needle) -2 duress -2 scrying -1 probe

vs RUG no golgari charm in ; maze in

Death and taxes : +4 NoTW +2 grip +2 charm +1 maze-4 duress -2 map -3 crop

infect : +2 charm +1 maze -2 scrying -1 map

storm : +2 chalice +3 surgical +1 bog -4 needle -2 scrying

elves : +2 golgari charm +2 surgical -1 sejiri steppe -1 scrying -1 ghost -1 needle

eldrazi : +2 grip +1 maze + 4 Notw (karakas/endbringer) -4 duress -2 map -1 steppe

shardless : +2 chalice @0 +1 grip + some surgical if you expect your opponent to play them -2 duress -1 map


Notice that surgical can answers opponents one by targeting their target and searching for nothing.


4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Blooming Marsh
2 Llanowar Wastes
1 Forest
2 Khalni Garden
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe

2 Birds of Paradise

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Crop Rotation

2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Pithing Needle

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Duress

SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 2 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Not of This World
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
1 Marit Lage

[Mr. Froggy]

I've been playing this deck on MTGO, and its been fun.

Decided to build it IRL too.

[Mr. Froggy]

Here's my list for critique, I'm 7-1-1 as of yet with this exact 61.

Lands
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 SNow-Covered Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Polluted Delta

Creatures
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Spells
4 Lotus Petal
2 Expedition Map
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Crop Rotation
3 Into the North
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Not of This World

What are your thoughts?

I noticed that I've been needing Green the most, so might end up buying the Catacombs. I just don't feel like splurging on the fetches yet.

I didn't think the deck would end up being this strong though.

[apple713]

Here's my list for critique, I'm 7-1-1 as of yet with this exact 61.

Lands
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 SNow-Covered Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Polluted Delta

Creatures
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Spells
4 Lotus Petal
2 Expedition Map
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Crop Rotation
3 Into the North
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Not of This World

What are your thoughts?

I noticed that I've been needing Green the most, so might end up buying the Catacombs. I just don't feel like splurging on the fetches yet.

I didn't think the deck would end up being this strong though.

Its obvious that mana is your issue. In the primer I explained that "For each color you want to include you should have at least 10 lands that produce that color. Fetch lands are included in that count."

looking at your mana base, you only have 3 lands that produce green. Even with ESG and lotus petal you have a total of 11 which is 1 more than the bare minimum. Honestly ESG and petal maybe only contribute half of their quantity towards that number because they only last 1 turn. If you win on that turn, great, but if you don't then late game...turn 4+, is gonna be hard for you. Best case you consider esc and petal account for 4 green producing lands towards the 10, and you have 3 actual producing lands, and if you change the deltas to catacombs you'd be at a more accurate 11 green land count.

Id also be willing to bet that you have trouble producing enough black sometimes. Your land count for that is right on 11 too and you have double blacks for hexmage to worry about. You also only have 3 urborg's.

test some games with deltas as catacombs and see if that helps.... or just copy spooky's manabase cause you are both running turbo versions and I don't think i've heard him complain about it yet.

EDIT
just compared your green sources to spooky's and y'all will have the same number of green sources if you change your delta's to catacombs. Im sure that will help a lot. Even so cutting it that close to the minimum amount you have to realize that Determined 10 was the absolute minimum for the deck to be playable, but I also knew that occasionally i would be hurting for that color mana ocasionally.

[Mr. Froggy]

Actually, Black has been a non-issue. Even with only 3 Urborgs.

My problem is that my search is Green, and I've been having trouble getting the colour.

[Mr. Froggy]

I switched out 3 Polluted Delta and tried out 3 Foothills in their place and the deck runs a lot smoother now.

I don't feel like buying the Catacombs on MTGO and in paper just yet.

The deck is good. Really good.

Nice job guys!

[ComplexPants]

Why did you choose cabal therapy instead of thoughtseize?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mr. Froggy]

Why did you choose cabal therapy instead of thoughtseize?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Because I love how much Cabal Therapy rips hands apart.

[ComplexPants]

Do you just guess? Seems like without a creature to sac or a way to look at their hand, it just loses value.

[Mr. Froggy]

Do you just guess? Seems like without a creature to sac or a way to look at their hand, it just loses value.

Playing Manaless Dredge has made me an expert with Therapy, and I've even sac'd an extra ESG to it for Flashback.

[Uboh]

Do you just guess? Seems like without a creature to sac or a way to look at their hand, it just loses value.

He actually has Gitaxian Probes in the deck, which is a way to look at the opponent's hand before Therapy. It's not much without the creatures to flashback Therapy, but I guess it's pretty much what storm decks do.

[Mr. Froggy]

He actually has Gitaxian Probes in the deck, which is a way to look at the opponent's hand before Therapy. It's not much without the creatures to flashback Therapy, but I guess it's pretty much what storm decks do.

The discard spell I'm not fond of in my list is Hymn to Tourach. I'd much rather be spending BB on Hexmage.

[apple713]

The discard spell I'm not fond of in my list is Hymn to Tourach. I'd much rather be spending BB on Hexmage.

Hymn is just mediocre. I have included it my sideboard for testing. I really only use it against combo decks because their only assets are cards in thier hand and although you can get value out of hymn it can also just wiff horribly. Its more than likely ill switch it out for something once i figure our what deck i need more help against.

[Mr. Froggy]

I think I'M going to try adrieng's manabase once Blooming Marsh comes out.

[apple713]

I think I'M going to try adrieng's manabase once Blooming Marsh comes out.

it's a solid manabase and you'll notice that he has met the minimum suggested colors that I indicated. He is also running 12 land tutors 1 of them is expedition map so it doesn't require colors. However, against a deck with moon it may be harder for him to recover if he doesn't hold a map back or search for basics with a tutor.

Keep in mind tho that everyone's metagame here is different. So while we all have most of the root cards the same, the variations likely help with the various metagames we encounter. I think the deck has gotten to a point where it's established and the differences in lists are there to deal with varying metagames. It would be extremely difficult to decide that one is better over another. Most, if not all of the cards that people are including in their variations have strengths/weaknesses over the other cards for those roles. Also, note that some have slightly different play styles. Some players may not be good with cabal therapy like you are. I would imagine i am poor with it because its not a card I ever play in legacy. So some of the deck variations account for things like that. Some players are better ALL IN players and might prefer a deck like spooky's or maybe they are better midrange and would prefer a deck like mine.


@Adrieng and others who have their lists posted in the primer (Negator77, Spooky, Adrieng). Let me know if you want me to update your list with something you post. I'll leave it the same until you tell me otherwise.

[Mr. Froggy]

it's a solid manabase and you'll notice that he has met the minimum suggested colors that I indicated. He is also running 12 land tutors 1 of them is expedition map so it doesn't require colors. However, against a deck with moon it may be harder for him to recover if he doesn't hold a map back or search for basics with a tutor.

Keep in mind tho that everyone's metagame here is different. So while we all have most of the root cards the same, the variations likely help with the various metagames we encounter. I think the deck has gotten to a point where it's established and the differences in lists are there to deal with varying metagames. It would be extremely difficult to decide that one is better over another. Most, if not all of the cards that people are including in their variations have strengths/weaknesses over the other cards for those roles. Also, note that some have slightly different play styles. Some players may not be good with cabal therapy like you are. I would imagine i am poor with it because its not a card I ever play in legacy. So some of the deck variations account for things like that. Some players are better ALL IN players and might prefer a deck like spooky's or maybe they are better midrange and would prefer a deck like mine.


@Adrieng and others who have their lists posted in the primer (Negator77, Spooky, Adrieng). Let me know if you want me to update your list with something you post. I'll leave it the same until you tell me otherwise.

I only got good with Therapy because I played it. A LOT. It got to the point where I could name cards in my opponents hand off their first fetch land/first card played.

Also, I'm more of an all in balls-to-the-walls type of player. I love how the deck can fit to anyone's play style. Its not something most decks can do.

[DNSolver]

Got top 16 in this month's Legacy challenge online. My decklist is in this thread.

R1: UR Delver Burn 0-2
G1 I have to mull to 4. The 7 card hand was very slow, with no ways to get either combo piece. Then the 6 and 5 had no lands.
G2 He has two Forces to stop my Chalice on 1 and my combo attempt after I mull to 6 cards.

R2: BRw Zombies + Bloodghasts with graveyard synergies 2-0

R3: Miracles 0-2
He had two Forces for my 2 Not of This Worlds G1 then topdecked Karakas, then G2 he gets around Chalice on 1 pretty well with Karakas, Clique, and Mentors.

R4: BUG Garbage 2-0

R5: UB Reanimator 2-0
Deck is garbage, easy win.

R6 and 7: Elves and Storm 2-0 2-1
Nothing to talk about here.

[ComplexPants]

Adrieng’s deck uses llanowar waste's. Is this because not using bayou protects against submerge? I haven't tried out a slower list like this, but it seems interesting.

Also, anyone have tips against Miracles. I am like 1-5 against them. In my last match, even with needles on the top, I never seemed to be able to keep up with all their answers.

[Mr. Froggy]

Adrieng’s deck uses llanowar waste's. Is this because not using bayou protects against submerge? I haven't tried out a slower list like this, but it seems interesting.

Also, anyone have tips against Miracles. I am like 1-5 against them. In my last match, even with needles on the top, I never seemed to be able to keep up with all their answers.

I try to bait out their FoWs, but since they have so much stuff against us the match up isn't exactly easy.

[DNSolver]

Could a super-control prison deck like this work? Kind of a combo of this deck and RG Combo Lands.

4 Depths
4 Stage
4 Urborg
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Barren Moor
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Tabernacle
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage

4 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Library

Is this doable at all? Kind of like taking the more controlly, card-advantage version that I've seen around and taking it to the limit by maximizing on Loams. Perhaps if we put in Exploration / Mox Diamond? Has someone tried something like this and can tell me how viable it is?

[apple713]

Could a super-control prison deck like this work? Kind of a combo of this deck and RG Combo Lands.

4 Depths
4 Stage
4 Urborg
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Barren Moor
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Tabernacle
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage

4 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Library

Is this doable at all? Kind of like taking the more controlly, card-advantage version that I've seen around and taking it to the limit by maximizing on Loams. Perhaps if we put in Exploration / Mox Diamond? Has someone tried something like this and can tell me how viable it is?

if you flip back a couple pages you'll see that someone did well with a list similar to that. My only thing about that list is that if you are going to controls you might as well play RG lands unless you are porting the deck into a different shell like trying to combine dark depths and miracles or something.

[ComplexPants]

@DNSolver. I saw you 5-0 a competitive league. Congrats. How did you like Ancient tomb in the board? Also Have you considered Krosan grip in the board to deal with painter/miracles?

[Mr. Froggy]

Took the deck to my local legacy tournament and took away the grand prize.

Went 4-0

R1: UB Reanimator (2-1)
R2: RG Combo Lands (2-1) one of the funnest matches I have played in a while, I survived his Marit Lage attack and even countered his Karakas' activation thanks to NoTW.
R3: UG Infect (2-0)
R4: Burn (2-0) Turn 2 Marit Lages both games.

I updated my list a bit, will post it later.

[DNSolver]

@DNSolver. I saw you 5-0 a competitive league. Congrats. How did you like Ancient tomb in the board? Also Have you considered Krosan grip in the board to deal with painter/miracles?

5-0'ing leagues is pretty value for this deck, considering that each time you 5-0 you get boosters equivalent to $35.

I've been bringing in Ancient Tomb with the Chalices - I consider it the 9th anti-combo slot (along with 4 Surgicals 4 Chalices, though these don't work against all combo decks obviously). It's also fine to have as a land because it can act as a 4th Urborg in my list for comboing on three lands (Stage, Depths, Ancient Tomb). The only other realistic option is Maze of Ith which does little against Show and Tell (Needleing Griselbrand is your best here anyway), but can hold off Delver / Goyf for awhile. It's the only slot that I've found flexible in the deck TBH. Actually, the 3rd Bayou - I've been considering making one into a Llanowar Wastes to allow you to play around Submerge with a preliminary Crop Rotation for it. Once the new fastlands come out, I think I will -4 fetchland +4 of those for awhile.

Krosan Grip - Abrupt Decay is better at everything this card does for this deck, and hits more cards besides. If you name a card that Krosan Grip hits that Decay can't that is realistically playable against our deck before it is combo time, we can discuss it.

[apple713]

Krosan Grip - Abrupt Decay is better at everything this card does for this deck, and hits more cards besides. If you name a card that Krosan Grip hits that Decay can't that is realistically playable against our deck before it is combo time, we can discuss it.

omniscience
Sneak Attack
Aluren
batter skull
inkmoth Nexus
helm of obedience

just off the top of my head.

i run 4 decay main and still play 3 grip in board. I must admit I haven't tinkered much with board since i made it but I made it at a time when omni was played a lot because dig was still in the format. If sneak and omni are not issues in your meta, then decays should be fine. HOWEVER, krosan grip is G instead of GB making it easier to cast for some manabases. Also, under moon, its easier to get access to 1 color instead of two. Do note that grip does not hit magus of the moon tho.

Additionally, there are times when split second does help more than just being uncountable. For example, when you have to target a sensei's divining top.

So as you can see there are some trade offs. I'm sure there are more but I'm completely fried right now.

[adrieng]

As said apple :

Decay is better most of the time but grip are way better for blood moon if you don't play the basic swamp like I don't.
There is also the split second stuff for sensei's diving the top and stuff like omnisicence/humility/aluren.
I think you need at the very least 4 answers to CB in the main/side.

I have already been testing a one off tomb in side for CoTv and I think it is a waste slot. Turn two chalice@1 is already good ; versus miracle you prefer casting turn one your needle/map
not going all in crop into tomb and vs storm you can cast it for zero. Vs turbo rea you prefer keeping your crop for bog and keeping options with discard/surgical.

[DNSolver]

omniscience
Sneak Attack
Aluren
batter skull
inkmoth Nexus
helm of obedience

just off the top of my head.

i run 4 decay main and still play 3 grip in board. I must admit I haven't tinkered much with board since i made it but I made it at a time when omni was played a lot because dig was still in the format. If sneak and omni are not issues in your meta, then decays should be fine. HOWEVER, krosan grip is G instead of GB making it easier to cast for some manabases. Also, under moon, its easier to get access to 1 color instead of two. Do note that grip does not hit magus of the moon tho.

Additionally, there are times when split second does help more than just being uncountable. For example, when you have to target a sensei's divining top.

So as you can see there are some trade offs. I'm sure there are more but I'm completely fried right now.

Many of those cards get hit with Pithing Needle (don't know how many you are running), and I would rather have more combo-oriented cards post sideboard than Krosan Grip when playing against everything there except Omniscience. Even against Omniscience, while you can get 'em in response to Cunning Wish, you are equally likely to lose to cast Emrakul trigger or cast Griselbrand (even though Omni dies, Grisel will Griz all over you unless you can make Karakas or Marit Lage uncounterably.

However, you did bring up a point that I did not consider, which is the availability of G over BG in certain manabases. I haven't played any other versions so I don't know what those are like. I have 8 fast mana and 3 Expedition Map so I don't have any problems with that. Personally, the only decks I expect Blood Moon out of are

a) prison strategies, where you need to hope that one removal spell (or discard plus removal spell on the play)is good enough
b) Miracles, which, being a slow deck, gives us time to draw out of it

I guess some Elves guy could really get me with a turn 2 Blood Moon...? I don't care about that scenario.

@adrieng: Interesting point on the Chalices. What would you recommend for the Ancient Tomb slot in my board? Right now it's 4 Decay, 4 Surgical, 4 Chalice, Karakas, Needle #4, (empty slot).

[ComplexPants]

Turn 1 blood moon is a thing with painter and big red. I know not super common decks, but with the new recruiter being printed I expect to see the deck a bit more in large paper events. The discussion of taking out fetches also worries me since getting blood mooned seems more devastating than submerge. Maybe a 2:1 split with bayou and blooming marsh.

I am playing a deck very close to yours DNSolver. I have basically taken away 1 duress for a library. Turn 1 library is pretty good. I am also playing a 2:1 split of into the north and map. This is my current sideboard


4 Chalice of the void
3 abrupt decay
2 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Pithing Needle

The card I would like to squeeze in is Tabernacle. Against delver and elves I feel like this is a house and delver is popular these days. It can also slow down BUG, Loam and Maverick, not to mention D&T.

What are your guys thoughts?

[apple713]

Turn 1 blood moon is a thing with painter and big red. I know not super common decks, but with the new recruiter being printed I expect to see the deck a bit more in large paper events. The discussion of taking out fetches also worries me since getting blood mooned seems more devastating than submerge. Maybe a 2:1 split with bayou and blooming marsh.

I am playing a deck very close to yours DNSolver. I have basically taken away 1 duress for a library. Turn 1 library is pretty good. I am also playing a 2:1 split of into the north and map. This is my current sideboard


4 Chalice of the void
3 abrupt decay
2 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Pithing Needle

The card I would like to squeeze in is Tabernacle. Against delver and elves I feel like this is a house and delver is popular these days. It can also slow down BUG, Loam and Maverick, not to mention D&T.

What are your guys thoughts?

My version is very good against delver. I have 4 abrupt decays and 4 thought seizes for their creatures. I also maindeck chalice and 3x liliana so if the dont have 4-5 creatures to start its unlikely theyll win.

[ComplexPants]

My version is very good against delver. I have 4 abrupt decays and 4 thought seizes for their creatures. I also maindeck chalice and 3x liliana so if the dont have 4-5 creatures to start its unlikely theyll win.

How does it do against Miracles and ANT? The Turbo version does well against delver just because it is faster and they really don't have good way to get rid of Marit Lage once she appears.

[jaruri]

Hi guys, I'm primarily a more midrangey player (DGA, Nic Fit, Mav) but love the Depths+Thespian/Hexmage interaction.

I was wondering if a more midrange build would be viable at all. I know that some lists include Bob and DRS are around, but I don't know if many people are still testing them. I made a quick list that sacrifices the speed of the versions I'm seeing for a more balanced approach. Is this list too diluted or unfocused to be competitive? Thoughts?

(Note: I have not tested any version of Depths or this list yet, I just love the idea :). I'd love to test it when I have time if it seems plausible)

Lands (25):
3 Bayou
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespians Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Creatures (14):
3 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Grim Flayer
3 Vampire Hexmage

Planeswalkers/Enchant/Artifacts (7):
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
2 Expedition Map
2 Pithing Needle

Instants/Sorceries (14):
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Crop Rotation
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
2 Thoughtseize (or Duress)

Sideboard:
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Tsunami

[apple713]

Hi guys, I'm primarily a more midrangey player (DGA, Nic Fit, Mav) but love the Depths+Thespian/Hexmage interaction.

I was wondering if a more midrange build would be viable at all. I know that some lists include Bob and DRS are around, but I don't know if many people are still testing them. I made a quick list that sacrifices the speed of the versions I'm seeing for a more balanced approach. Is this list too diluted or unfocused to be competitive? Thoughts?

(Note: I have not tested any version of Depths or this list yet, I just love the idea :). I'd love to test it when I have time if it seems plausible)

Lands (25):
3 Bayou
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespians Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Creatures (14):
3 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Grim Flayer
3 Vampire Hexmage

Planeswalkers/Enchant/Artifacts (7):
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
2 Expedition Map
2 Pithing Needle

Instants/Sorceries (14):
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Crop Rotation
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
2 Thoughtseize (or Duress)

Sideboard:
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Tsunami


I would say, try my version of the deck since they are incredibly similar. I am not running 3 Dark Confidant, 4 Deathrite Shaman or 3 Grim Flayer but everything else looks similar. What I think you'll find with your list is that you are essentially playing a weaker BUG deck that steals some games with Dark depths. One of the benefits to having 0 creatures in the deck is that it more or less blanks their removal. Of course if you are getting them to swords your creatures thats fine, but things that die to bolt are often just dead cards. Having only hexmage as a creature is generally a better idea, at least from what I've found. Also, if you were gonna add creatures, the creature at the top of the list should probably be knight of the reliquary. Yes its white but it adds so much more value because of the land tutor synergy. Dark depths seems like more of an after thought from looking at your list. I'm saying that because the creatures don't do much for the combo.

There is nothing glaringly wrong with your list and you'll win games just maybe not as many as you would with the suggested deck lists in the primer.


To answer your question more directly its probably too unfocused to become a staple version of the deck. Sure you can play dark depths combo in that shell just as you can play it in maverick but I think you'd have better luck playing it in maverick.

[apple713]

How does it do against Miracles and ANT? The Turbo version does well against delver just because it is faster and they really don't have good way to get rid of Marit Lage once she appears.

It does better than any other version of the deck that ive played. I built the deck to closely resembly shardless because at the time i had talked to miracles players and they told me shardless was not a good matchup for them. So i took the control elements from shardless like liliana, decay, thoughtsieze, added some of my own , chalice of the void, and took out all the creatures. Instead of brainstorms and other dig spells i have tutors for my lands.

I dont have exact numbers for you because i dont play nearly as often as the other guys on here now. Law school keeps me fairly busy.

[jaruri]

I would say, try my version of the deck since they are incredibly similar. I am not running 3 Dark Confidant, 4 Deathrite Shaman or 3 Grim Flayer but everything else looks similar. What I think you'll find with your list is that you are essentially playing a weaker BUG deck that steals some games with Dark depths. One of the benefits to having 0 creatures in the deck is that it more or less blanks their removal. Of course if you are getting them to swords your creatures thats fine, but things that die to bolt are often just dead cards. Having only hexmage as a creature is generally a better idea, at least from what I've found. Also, if you were gonna add creatures, the creature at the top of the list should probably be knight of the reliquary. Yes its white but it adds so much more value because of the land tutor synergy. Dark depths seems like more of an after thought from looking at your list. I'm saying that because the creatures don't do much for the combo.

There is nothing glaringly wrong with your list and you'll win games just maybe not as many as you would with the suggested deck lists in the primer.


To answer your question more directly its probably too unfocused to become a staple version of the deck. Sure you can play dark depths combo in that shell just as you can play it in maverick but I think you'd have better luck playing it in maverick.

Thanks for the feedback! I was thinking including high value creatures could help out a little vs the various things lost but a mav build would probably be better in the end. I'll try out your list and see how that feels too. Thanks!

[DNSolver]

Played an 11-man tournament today.

R1 bye

R2 UR Delver 2-1 (lost G1 because I wasn't aggressive enough)

R3 Miracles 1-2
I am thinking I am going to put a Volrath's Stronghold in the sideboard. That card will change this matchup completely - really obnoxious if they don't have Counter-Top with a 2.

R4 Burn 2-0

Edit: Played some games against Miracles. Volrath's is good but it doesn't win the omega-late game against Venser, Shaper Savant - Karakas loop. I am investigating other options.

[gngpostalsrvc]

DNSolver, would you mind sharing your SB guide for some of the more common matchups?

[Mr. Froggy]

I just beat Miracles, didn't even think that was possible.

I had given up on the matchup.

[DNSolver]

My sideboard is in flux because I'm considering ways to beat Miracles.

Right now one of the suggestions is Nephalia Drownyard.

[Negator77']

My sideboard is in flux because I'm considering ways to beat Miracles.

Right now one of the suggestions is Nephalia Drownyard.

Are you thinking (or was the suggestion) of Drownyard as a way to fight SD Top, or as a way of trying to deck them? If it's the former, Drownyard is could actually help them (sans brainstorm) depending on what they are floating. Fighting Top with Needles, Krosan Grips, Decays, and Extractions seems better for that scenario. If you are going for decking, I'd be very curious about how that works out if you test it.

[jaruri]

My sideboard is in flux because I'm considering ways to beat Miracles.

Right now one of the suggestions is Nephalia Drownyard.

That sounds like some neat tech, would you run a blue source with that or solely rely on thespians?

[Seraphix]

My sideboard is in flux because I'm considering ways to beat Miracles.

Right now one of the suggestions is Nephalia Drownyard.

Do you think Cavern of Souls has any merit? It gives access to an uncounterable Hexmage combo, which is less resource intensive than a Stage combo. Might be too narrow though.

[DNSolver]

Miracles countering our Hexmages is not the issue - we can combo with just lands and Counterbalance isn't the issue, it's Terminus + Swords + potential Blood Moons. We need Decays to deal with Blood Moon so I would rather have a land that wins us the game as long as we can deal with Blood Moon. I'm picturing the entire goal of the post-board games to be assembling Drownyard, Stage on Island/Tundra, basic Forest and Swamp. I am also considering Shivan Gorge but Drownyard is around the same clock while also messing up their Terminus.

If I wasn't going to run this plan, it would be:
+4 Surgical to disrupt Terminus, +4 Decay for Blood Moon/Counterbalance, +4 Chalice of the Void, +1 Karakas, +4th Needle
-4 Elvish Spirit Guide, -4 Lotus Petal -3 Expedition Map, -3 Duress
or something along those lines. We would play a long game, so we cut the fast mana. We keep hands with Chalice or disruption like Needle.

If we have Drownyard in our sideboard, we can have another angle where we can play for the turbo long game. We could cut an additional discard and bring in our entire sideboard.

[apple713]

Miracles countering our Hexmages is not the issue - we can combo with just lands and Counterbalance isn't the issue, it's Terminus + Swords + potential Blood Moons. We need Decays to deal with Blood Moon so I would rather have a land that wins us the game as long as we can deal with Blood Moon.

This is correct.





If I wasn't going to run this plan, it would be:
+4 Surgical to disrupt Terminus, +4 Decay for Blood Moon/Counterbalance, +4 Chalice of the Void, +1 Karakas, +4th Needle
-4 Elvish Spirit Guide, -4 Lotus Petal -3 Expedition Map, -3 Duress
or something along those lines. We would play a long game, so we cut the fast mana. We keep hands with Chalice or disruption like Needle.


Your side boarding choices here are the basis for why I prefer my version. You hard matches tend to go longer, so i feel its better to have a better long game. You take out all of your speed against miracles, which is correct and so I would rather have a better game 1 against my harder matches than a slightly better matchup against matches that are already decent.

[ComplexPants]

I am playing a version similar to DNSolver and I find that ESG is probably the Allstar fast mana. People just don't expect you to crop rotation while tapped out. It flat steals games and sometime needle and map on turn 1 is back breaking.


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[DNSolver]

Yeah Spirit Guide is easily the card that breaks some games wide open for you, allowing you to steal. Keep in mind when your opponent has or hasn't seen Spirit Guide because then you will know if they have any clue to play around it. You can use it as time walk when your opponent turn 1 tries to Wasteland you when you Rotate.

I took a look at your list apple. That might be a direction I end up going in.

Edit: Updating my list of contenders for Miracles matchup breakers. First consideration: Land or nonland? If nonland, space needs to be made. Probably Surgicals would get cut.

1) Rite of Consumption. Was played in older lists but doesn't do anything without Lage. Against Miracles we have little problem making Lage, and then we can circumvent 4 StP 4 Terminus 1 Karakas by making Lage mainphase and then shooting them in the face. They need a counterspell or counter/top to stop this. The sideboard plan therefore would be +4th Needle, +4 Decay, +X Rite, - fast mana and Not of This World, but we could keep in discard to take their counterspells. EDIT 2: Or possibly this over Not of This World maindeck??????

2) Shrine of Burning Rage. A true Legacy staple (sarcasm) that just sits there and ticks up. It's like Shivan Gorge (which I was interested in the first place), but it works through Blood Moon and gets hit by Wear/Tear. Kind of a trade-off.

3) Bitterblossom. A great turn 1 or turn 2 play against Miracles, and we have discard to back it up.

[ComplexPants]

Bitterblossom seems like and interesting card. Feels like it would be great against path, but pretty weak against terminus. If you could land it turn 1 that could be back breaking for them.

What about winter orb? I mean, we don't need a lot of mana, have fast mana sources and it would make playing top a lot more mana intensive for them.


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[DNSolver]

Someone was asking for a sideboard guide. This is the best I got right now:

Miracles:
Still up in the air. Postboard games are likely going to revolve completely around a card NOT in the maindeck. Not sure whether that card is a land or nonland yet. However, fast mana (Lotus Petals especially) comes out to make room for cards with text.

Death and Taxes:
The only other hard matchup. So far I like keeping discard, if only to see what to put Needle on.
+1 Needle, +4 Abrupt Decay
-3 Expedition Map (can be Revoker'd), -2 Sylvan Scrying (can be hard to cast through Thalia)

Grixis Delver:
Easy matchup. Wastelands matter, as do Dazes. Crop Rotation is the best Force target, and if it gets countered you are down a land drop, which slows down your combo and makes you more susceptible to Daze / Pierce / Flusterstorm. However, you should have an easy time winning 2/3 games.
+1 Needle, +4 Decay, +4 Chalice of the Void
-3 Not of This World, -1 Bojuka Bog, -4 Crop Rotation, -1 Duress

UR Delver:
No Wastelands, but play around Price of Progress.
+4 Chalice of the Void, +4 Decay
-3 Needle, -1 Bojuka Bog, -3 Not of This World, -1 Duress/Crop Rotation/Sylvan Scrying/Ghost Quarter

Storm:
A race. The only keepable hands are turn 2 token, lots of discard, or a hate card with other stuff to do. G1 Needles should name fetchlands because LED is a mana ability. Rotate for Bog counts as a hate card most of the time.
-3 Needle, -4 Sylvan Scrying, -1 Ghost Quarter, -1 Sejiri Steppe
+4 Chalice of the Void, +4 Surgical Extraction, +1 Ancient Tomb (if running this)

Burn:
Easy matchup and a race. Snap block with Marit Lage when possible, play out all your cards early to get around Eidolon.
-3 Needle, -3 Not of This World, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Sejiri Steppe
+4 Chalice of the Void, +4 Abrupt Decay

Reanimator:
Our sideboard happens to line up excellently against this stuff. This plan holds for UB or for my own BR.
-1 Ghost Quarter, -3 Not of This World, -4 Sylvan Scrying, -2 Expedition Map (gets hit by Chalice)
+4 Chalice of the Void, +4 Surgical Extraction, +1 Ancient Tomb, +1 Karakas

Sneak and Show / Omnishow:
We have to hope their hand has lots of cantrips, so we are on the Chalice plan against these guys too. They can have Blood Moon, but discard is better than Decays. Maybe bring in Decays on the draw, but even then you have to be lucky to beat their Blood Moon before they hit you with a Demon.
-3 Not of This World, -1 Bojuka Bog, -4 Sylvan Scrying, -3 ???
+4 Chalice of the Void, +1 Needle, +4 Surgical Extraction, +1 Karakas, +1 Ancient Tomb

Eldrazi:
Wasteland, Karakas, Endbringer. Those are the cards that cause the most problems. Other than those, Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smashers are good clocks. Key interaction: after First Strike, sacrifice Hexmage to kill Endless One.
-1 Bojuka Bog, -3 Expedition Map, -1 Sejiri Steppe
+1 Needle, +4 Abrupt Decay (+1 Karakas if white w/ Thalias)

Infect:
A race matchup where we can actually interact with each other in the combat step. Namely, with blocking. Blocking is the best thing to be doing in this matchup. Needle on Inkmoth Nexus / Pendelhaven / Karakas is important enough. Play around Submerge if you can.
-1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Sejiri Steppe, -3 Not of This World (next cuts would probably be Duresses)
+1 Needle, +4 Abrupt Decay (could consider Chalice...?)

Dredge / Manaless Dredge / Oops All Spells:
A bye. Key interaction: Vampire Hexmage removes Bridges. Discard is actually fine because you can take acceleration cards. Narcomoebas can block.
All possible cuts: 3 Not of This World, 3 Needle, 1 Ghost Quarter, Spirit Guides?)
+4 Surgical Extraction (+4 Chalice +1 Ancient Tomb for Oops)

Elves:
A bye.
-3 Not of This World, -1 Pithing Needle
+4 Chalice of the Void

Lands:
Ew. Disgusting matchup. A million things to name with Needle at various stages of the game. You can steal games with Bojuka Bog / Surgical hitting their Loam(s). You will not win the long game.
-4 Duress, -1 Thoughtseize
+1 Needle, +4 Surgical Extraction

[ComplexPants]

Well, in some initial testing, winter orb does seem to slow other decks down a decent amount, but does very little to hurt our deck, especially if you leave fast mana in. I have a good friend who is a miracles player, I will test it out versus when I get a chance. I have two in the board for which I took out 1 surgical and 1 abrupt.

[uncletiggy]

If you're considering winter orb root maze may be worth adding to your testing.

[ComplexPants]

If you're considering winter orb root maze may be worth adding to your testing.

I hadn't thought of root maze, but my decision to go with winter orb was to slow down sensei's top. Since really, we don't use a lot of mana until we go off, untapping slowly doesn't affect us too much. The orb also has some fringe benefit against decks like Nic Fit

[ComplexPants]

I have been thinking about miracles more. After testing a bit with a friend I started thinking less about what I am putting in and more what are they taking out.

My test partner plays the legends version and he said against me he took out most counterbalance, and all of his terminus's.

It started making me wonder if there is a way to next level miracles. Decay is really only included to deal with counter balance, blood moon and back to basics. Would surgical extraction be a better card against them over decay? Especially if we keep our discard in.


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[DNSolver]

I have been thinking about miracles more. After testing a bit with a friend I started thinking less about what I am putting in and more what are they taking out.

My test partner plays the legends version and he said against me he took out most counterbalance, and all of his terminus's.

It started making me wonder if there is a way to next level miracles. Decay is really only included to deal with counter balance, blood moon and back to basics. Would surgical extraction be a better card against them over decay? Especially if we keep our discard in.


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Terminus is their best card so they can feel free to take it out... You should win >50% of games if they are doing that - then you just need to answer Karakas if they have it and then deal with some Swords to Plowshares, which is roughly what we do with Stoneblade decks.

A better sideboard plan for them would be -1/2 Jace, -1 Counterbalance, -1 cantrip/land, +2 Blood Moon / Back to Basics effects, +2 Wear/Tear / Engineered Explosives effects. I don't know how he's bringing in so many cards...

[ComplexPants]

Terminus is kind of a weak card against us. Sure it gets by NoTW, but they need to have top to draw it on our turn to have any effect against Marit Lage. With 4 needles post board, that is kind of hard for them, especially if they don't find EE or Wear. I find it sort of comes down to "do you have a force?, because I will likely have a needle."

He brought in Back to Basics, Fluster storm, Wear//Tear and pithing needle. Not sure if this is right or not, but he does have MD Venser, Karakas, and Path to deal with Marit. Jace is ok, the free brain storm every turn is really good against us as we don't have many ways to remove it. Jace can also force our hand as to when to activate DD by bouncing Hexmage. And flusterstorm is quite good as we a lot of tutors that we want to play early. Not sure it was optimal SB, but made it very hard for me.

[Mr. Froggy]

I have been thinking about miracles more. After testing a bit with a friend I started thinking less about what I am putting in and more what are they taking out.

My test partner plays the legends version and he said against me he took out most counterbalance, and all of his terminus's.

It started making me wonder if there is a way to next level miracles. Decay is really only included to deal with counter balance, blood moon and back to basics. Would surgical extraction be a better card against them over decay? Especially if we keep our discard in.


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Every time I play vs Miracles, Pre and Post, they always keep their Terminus's in. And I get hit every single time.

[ComplexPants]

Hmmm....I might just be crazy then. It has been know to happen. They flip it with top? Doesn't needle help prevent that?

[Negator77']

Hmmm....I might just be crazy then. It has been know to happen. They flip it with top? Doesn't needle help prevent that?

Yes, Needle can help against Top plus flipping Terminus... but we don't have needle every game and they can have counters and/or Wear/Tear at times even when we do. There are also sequences where they set up instant speed Terminus without Top using Ponder on their turn + instant speed draw spell on your turn or using Brainstorm plus another instant speed draw spell(another BS, predict, etc). As the game and their mana develops, a simple BS + Snapcaster/BS can even get there. Those sequences can be set up over one or two turns with Ponder or Brainstorm depending on when they think you are going to go for it.

I have seen people board some # of Terminus out via the deck info Surgical Extraction provides in SB games, but it is fairly rare.

[DNSolver]

Looks like you have already heard some good arguments, but just to add on a little bit more:

Jace can be dealt with by Needle or by Vampire Hexmage. Also, it costs a lot of mana for a sorcery speed card. If they try to bounce your Hexmage, you can kill their Jace instead of making Marit Lage if you want.

Flusterstorm isnt very effective against us, but I could see bringing it in to counter a land search or Not of This World.

A common way to play with Terminus is to use it to clear a Hexmage we put on the board as pressure. If we respond to it by making Lage, Lage gets removed. So it's better than Swords to Plowshares in that case because it will definitely 1 for 1 our creature.

[ComplexPants]

I feel well educated. Thanks guys.


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[AmokPL]

Hello all. New ML disciple.

Has anyone playing Turbo version tried Blooming Marshes yet? Also saw a guy's list with rather unusual sb card: Gloom. I guess it is a way to make miracling a Terminus a lot harder :cool:

[Xod]

I think Gloom combined with Winter Orb might be a good sideboard tech against Miracles and Death and Taxes. I think I will even try it in a more control build with CotV and Mox Diamonds main.

[ComplexPants]

Gloom is actually really cool tech. No only does it hit terminus, but it makes StP much much worse. Which is one of the few outs against our deck.


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[Xod]

Karakas still exists, with their manabase, they should be able to handle it, and they can still counter Gloom.

But I will try to test it. (maybe in conjunction with Winter Orb)

[ComplexPants]

They can handle it, but with fast mana it is a turn 1 or 2 play, which forces them to have a force ready. And while it doesn't get rid of all of their answers, venser in some builds, it makes them have to struggle a lot more.


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[adrieng]

Went 5-0 in last local with lattest list.
I beat merfolk 2-1 deathandtaxes 2-1 nicfit 2-0 UrBurndelver 2-0 and elf 2-0.
Everything was fine the deathAndtaxes matchup felt close but finally I get there involving maze copy.

@apple : my lattest list has 4 blooming marsh maindeck instead of mana confluence and 2 golgari charm side instead of pyroclasme -1 scrying +1 third decay main thanks to update that

[Motto82]

Congratulations on the result Adrieng.
After my holiday I finally had a chance to take the deck for a second spin (still fairly new to it) and this time I did much better :) In fact, I won a local Invational Qualifier - so I am one of the happy 18 in my country to take a seat at the Invitational end of this year :)
I've beat Maverick, Infect, Shardless BUG and Death and Taxes. Turns out Gloom is indeed quite a good card :)
I have to admit I warped my sideboard much to the expected field and wouldn't recommend running it in a wider field - but it nerfed the matches I had prepared for. BUG and Infect were walkovers.

[DNSolver]

4-0'd an FNM, then top 8'd a local $1k today with this list:

4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Llanowar Wastes (likely going to be replaced with a Blooming Marsh)
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Crop Rotation
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
3 Expedition Map
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Vampire Hexmage
3 Not of This World
3 Pithing Needle

SB:
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Karakas
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nephalia Drownyard

R1: bye

R2: Storm 0-2
Mulligans in both games. G2 I discard a tutor, and surgical it for another tutor in his hand, leaving him with land, 2 Ponder, some mana. Of course I still die on turn 3 when he Ad Nauseams down to 1 life, finding a Dark Petition as his last card.

R3: Punishing Thing 2-1
I easily get G1 by discarding counterspells to resolve my land searches. G2 I lose to a last-minute topdecked Blood Moon after many turns of me playing around it. G3 I Decay his Thing in the Ice after Needling Wasteland and JTMS and then have an easy time killing him.

R4: Sneak and Omni Show
G1 I die to hardcast Omniscience after I forgot to play Pithing Needle on Sneak Attack (I had been holding it in hand in case of Show and Tell -> Griselbrand) and he snuck in a Griselbrand on defense to block Lage. G2 I make excellent use of Surgicals to limit my opponent's options and keep me informed of his hand, then G3 I discard his Force, he topdecks a sol land to Show and Tell a turn 2 Blood Moon (I put in Hexmage), he misses his 3rd land drop, and i Decay his Moon for the win.

R5: Death and Taxes
G1 his opening is Plains->Vial. I know how to play the matchup so I resolve my search ASAP and then plan on natural comboing. He doesn't have any interaction after I discard his Flickerwisp, I use a Spirit Guide to catch him off guard and kill him a turn early. G2 his opener is Plains, then t2 Wasteland my Bayou. I respond with a Crop Rotation and the game is esssentially over. He plays another Wasteland but holds it up this time. He then plays turn 4 Thalia but I Rotation in response for Ghost Quarter, and combo with him locked under his own Thalia.

R6: Death and Taxes
I was fairly certain that my chances of top 8'ing with a draw were better than my chances of winning, so I drew with my opponent (who was 4-0-1) to get top 8.

Quarters: Storm (same opponent as Swiss)
This guy didn't want to split because he saw he was against me. Matchup has been favorable on MTGO but he's on Caleb Scherer sideboard so perhaps a little better against Chalice and Surgical plan. I mull in all 3 games, G2 and G3 to 5 cards. G2 is one discard spell buying me enough time to combo on turn 3 or 4. G3 I keep land, expedition map, discard x2, chalice or something like that. I discard something and then play Chalice on zero. He guesses my other discard spell correctly on his Therapy and wins on turn 3 off an Ad Nauseam finding Chain of Vapor.

4-0 FNM the night before was:
R1:
R2: Grixis Delver 2-0
R3: Sneak and Omni Show 2-1
R4: Death and Taxes 2-1

Didn't get a chance to use Nephalia Drownyard. Three more ideas for an anti-Miracles sideboard plan:
1) 1x Cloudpost, 1x Eye of Ugin, 1x Emrakul but still loses to fast Mentor
2) 1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All + 3 Rites of Consumption instead of 3 Not of This World (but makes some racing matchups more difficult) - can combo relatively quickly, worse against Vendilion Clique.
3) To beat Mentor and Death and Taxes in general, -4 Surgical +4 Dread of Night in the sideboard. Makes combo matchups and lands matchup worse.

I was originally going to replace the fetches with the Blooming Marshes, but I have been liking basics more with Blood Moons out of some decks. Probably going to replace the Llanowar Wastes with one, but not going to drastically change the manabase when it's fine now.

[Namida]

I was able to win a Grand Prix Trial for Chiba playing DNSolver's 75 from the Legacy Premier. I'm a Storm player in a metagame filled with Chalices and I haven't really done combat math since 2010 so I picked this deck up because it's a combo deck that doesn't have as much trouble against combo hate.

R1 Eldrazi 1-2
Make a quick token in game 1, lose to Wasteland in game 2, lose to turn 3 Eldrazi curve out in game 3.

R2 Bye

R3 Affinity 2-1
Lose to Ravager and blocking Ornithopers in game 1, clean up in games 2 and 3.

R4 Miracles 2-0
Game 1 my opponent tapped his Karakas to miracle a draw step Entreat the Angels to allow me to ESG make Marit Lage a turn ahead of time and Seijiri Steppe past his Angels. Game 2 I play turn 1 Pithing Needle which he had been planning on using to fix his bad hand. Double Not of this World beats Swords to Plowshares.

R5 Shardless ID

Top 8 Bant 2-0
My opponent's draws were so terrible that there's nothing to be gained here.

Top 4 Lands 2-0
Game 1 my opponent puts Dark Depths into play off of Manabond when I have Thespian's Stage and 2 mana on the board.
Game 2 my opponent goes to Wasteland my Thespian's Stage, I Crop Rotation to get Dark Depths, Surgical Extraction Wasteland, Use ESG to make Marit Lage, untap and cast Pithing Needle on his two Maze of Ith, and attack.

Finals Eldrazi Split
My opponent already had byes, so he took the packs and I took the byes.

The deck was far more powerful than I had anticipated. Wasteland caused me some problems but didn't feel completely unbeatable. Elvish Spirit Guide was an MVP and embarrassed quite a few players by allowing me to make Marit Lage ahead of schedule.

[Claymore]

2) 1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All + 3 Rites of Consumption instead of 3 Not of This World (but makes some racing matchups more difficult) - can combo relatively quickly, worse against Vendilion Clique.


If you use City of Brass, Simian Spirit Guide or whatnot, you could use Fling to kill at instant speed.

Gloom is interesting to me, any results?

I don't quite see the point of Nephalia Drownyard unless you want to attempt to put Miracles completely into topdeck mode and not able to use Top.

[Mr. Froggy]

If you use City of Brass, Simian Spirit Guide or whatnot, you could use Fling to kill at instant speed.

I think that's how the deck started out as.

[DNSolver]

It's true that we could run a City of Brass or Mana Confluence or Gemstone Mine to produce red to cast Fling. I would probably rather run a red land such as Taiga or Badlands to cast Fling in that case, so that we can fetch it from Verdant Catacombs. In case it's not clear as to my intentions with Drownyard, I intend to mill them out.

The benefits of Fling are that 1) it can get around Vendilion Clique by being instant speed and 2) in a pinch, it can shoot a creature with a Spirit Guide / Hexmage.

I have not played any games yet with Nephalia Drownyard - whenever I queued with it in a league I didn't play against Miracles, and I didn't play vs any Miracles at the $1k. I have played some games with the Boseiju and it feels powerful because it fits with our primary gameplan so well, they have a hard time tapping out for Mentor or Blood Moon because most of the time we have the combo waiting for them to try that. Then, we eventually draw Rite of Consumption and it straight up kills them. Against Legends Miracles (much less played than Predict / Mentor builds), Venser + Karakas is hard to get through but beatable if you bring in Surgical Extraction, and Vendilion Clique can take Rite out of our hand.

There are a lot of different plans and one of the things I like about this deck is that these might be playable. I would love if some more people could pick up Drownyard for a few matches and tell me if it's remotely feasible. Boseiju certainly is IMO.

[Motto82]

If you use City of Brass, Simian Spirit Guide or whatnot, you could use Fling to kill at instant speed.

Gloom is interesting to me, any results?

I don't quite see the point of Nephalia Drownyard unless you want to attempt to put Miracles completely into topdeck mode and not able to use Top.

I played with Gloom this weekend, and posted the fact I won an Invitational in my country with the deck, running two copies in the sideboard. (You can see my very small report at the bottom of the previous page).
I also have very limited experience with the card so far (and with the deck in general , as this was the second time I took it to a paper event and haven't done much online testing as yet).
The matches I played where I boarded it in were:
Dark Maverick. Played this twice but never drew it. (Round 1 and semi finals versus same opponent, lost R1, won the semi finals).
Death and Taxes. Drew it in game 3 , resolved it on turn 2 on the play and it was easy sailing from there.

My initial feeling is the card hoses D&T , Maverick and Miracles with the latter obviously being more pro-active with Counter Magic. I would only drop it if it doesn't get countered , so basically when I had the opportunity to look at their hand the previouus turn or the turn I want to resolve it.
The downside is it uses up slots and feel we already have little wiggle room in the sideboard. Miracles and Death and Taxes however aren't matchups I feel we can pass up on, so I'll stick to them for the time being and hope to get in more results with it.


It's true that we could run a City of Brass or Mana Confluence or Gemstone Mine to produce red to cast Fling. I would probably rather run a red land such as Taiga or Badlands to cast Fling in that case, so that we can fetch it from Verdant Catacombs. In case it's not clear as to my intentions with Drownyard, I intend to mill them out.

The benefits of Fling are that 1) it can get around Vendilion Clique by being instant speed and 2) in a pinch, it can shoot a creature with a Spirit Guide / Hexmage.

I have not played any games yet with Nephalia Drownyard - whenever I queued with it in a league I didn't play against Miracles, and I didn't play vs any Miracles at the $1k. I have played some games with the Boseiju and it feels powerful because it fits with our primary gameplan so well, they have a hard time tapping out for Mentor or Blood Moon because most of the time we have the combo waiting for them to try that. Then, we eventually draw Rite of Consumption and it straight up kills them. Against Legends Miracles (much less played than Predict / Mentor builds), Venser + Karakas is hard to get through but beatable if you bring in Surgical Extraction, and Vendilion Clique can take Rite out of our hand.

There are a lot of different plans and one of the things I like about this deck is that these might be playable. I would love if some more people could pick up Drownyard for a few matches and tell me if it's remotely feasible. Boseiju certainly is IMO.

I'm intrigued by the Drowyard tech. It looks to me , that with the manabase you play, you can only get activations by saccing Lotus Petal to get blue. That seems quite difficult to pull off and looks to me a revision of your manabase is required to beat a Top over several turns or to actually even get blue mana precisely when you need it? Or does it involve Thespian's Stage copying an opposing blue source from the Miracles player?

[apple713]

2) 1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All + 3 Rites of Consumption instead of 3 Not of This World (but makes some racing matchups more difficult) - can combo relatively quickly, worse against Vendilion Clique.


The tradeoff here is that fling can be cast at instant speed which makes it better against a deck like D&T since D&T can tap down your mana and you can make the token in response and cast fling without passing priority. Rites is on color which makes it easier to cast in general but limited to main phases because its sorcery speed. However, both can be cast without passing priority which mean that counterspells / misdirection are the only things that stop them.

So either could be effective against D&T but less effective against Miracles because 2 is relatively easy to counter unless you see the coast is clear. Because it increases the mana required to win it would be slower and less effective against decks like ANT. If strange things happen and the game goes long then it could be used to win on the spot.

I guess if you are considering using rites / fling it could be substituted for something like not of this world. Fling / Rites gets around STP, Karakas, maze, blockers, terminus, and bounce. HOWEVER, you need to be careful for decks that have access to life gain. Players can swords to plowshares their own creatures to increase their life total above 20 to survive. Then you are hosed.

It could be useful against miracles, D&T, lands, 12 post

Has anyone tested these cards recently?

[adrieng]

I have already tested fling and I can say that is too slow for the deathAndTaxes and bad against miracle because of counters.
Against death and taxes with thalia it will most of the time costs 3 and you have to tap already three lands to make the token (except with vampire) + 3others lands to cast fling you want to do the stuff at the same time that you do the token to be karaks proof/swords proff and so on. Secondly they can just sword one of their creature to be above 20 life anf you need to fling twice :(.
Against miracle you can do it response to a removal but still that's not the issue of miracle stuff like chalice of the void is way better.
What we would need is an artifact/land better here that says sac this artifact and a creature for a fling effect. That would allow to be sure that the fling effect resolves.
@apple In my list I did -1 scrying +1 decay (so 3decay 3 scrying maindeck) to have a better miracle matchup.

As for gloom I am not at all conviced miracle can just play their removals for 4, it is just an enchant which can be disenchnated weared/teared for two for one (hiting needle or others stuff) and chalice is better here.
3 cc enchant have nothing to do in this deck it is too slow.

[DNSolver]

Fling is uncounterable with a single Boseiju. Reconsider the Miracles matchup.

[adrieng]

We are not going to play fling just for the miracle matchup with a boseiju maindeck which is a bad card against most of the decks.
It is a waste slot we want stuff good against most of the decks. I am agaisnt notofthisworld maindeck and for the same reasons and even more reasons agaisnt fling maindeck.

[apple713]

Fling is uncounterable with a single Boseiju. Reconsider the Miracles matchup.

Adrieng is correct on his points. I remember similar findings from long ago now that he has mentioned them. I don't think that including multiple bad cards (or even unoptimal ones at best) is a good idea especially since it is limited in its applications. Miracles isn't so bad that I would warp my deck to play against it. However if there was a solution that hit multiple decks like D&T, Miracles, AND ANT or something that might be worth exploring.

Random Sidenote, When playing the turbo version has anyone tried dark ritual? Im guessing not because green is too important to give up but any feedback here?

@adrieng I really really like abrupt decay in the deck. I play 4 main and It would take a very very strong argument to have me cut that number. Although it doesn't get you closer to winning, it buys you a lot of time by removing creatures or hitting things like counterbalance. Updated your list

[DNSolver]

Boseiju would be in the sideboard for Miracles. Fling / Rite of Consumption has some text in other matchups by getting around Baleful Strix or Lingering Souls in the place of a land search for Sejiri Steppe, though risky because of Force of Will.

For the turbo version, Miracles has been very swingy depending on what turn we aim at comboing on. I would like to be able to keep a slower hand and still have a way to win. Boseiju is one sideboard slot that costs us very little.

Someone asked above how to make blue mana for Nephalia Drownyard out of the sideboard. Copying Miracles players' Tundra / Island / Volc is 100% effective.

I have never considered playing Dark Ritual but it wouldn't help combo any faster except with Expedition Map, or Lotus Petal Hexmage openings. Definitely unplayable IMO, and I'm a dark ritual afficionado.

[apple713]

I have never considered playing Dark Ritual but it wouldn't help combo any faster except with Expedition Map, or Lotus Petal Hexmage openings. Definitely unplayable IMO, and I'm a dark ritual afficionado.

im not sure how it doesn't improve speed since our combo is literally ONLY black / colorless. Swamp stage depths ritual gives you 2 mana for stage activation or hexmage AND 1 extra mana to duress / thought seize. True its not green but green ONLY helps in assembling combo. It also creates more explosive turn 1's, of course at the cost of card advantage.

[ComplexPants]

Played a competitive league tonight with the following list:

Creatures (8)
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Spells (29)
4 Lotus Petal
1 Duress
1 Expedition Map
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Pithing Needle
4 Crop Rotation
4 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library
2 Into the North
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Not of This World

Lands (23)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard (15)
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Gloom


I went 4-1. Losing only to Enchantress only. Main board humility makes me very sad. Game 2 I couldn't find a land tutor even though I managed to discard and surgically extract 4 humility.

Match 1: 2-0 vs Aluren
Not much to say here. He never really got anything going and honestly I have no idea how to play against this deck outside of dodging forcers.

Match 2: 2-0 vs Eldrazi
Game 1 - I am on the play. Discard with urborg turn 1, he plays a tombs. I ghost quarter the tomb and play a sylvan library with ESG. I draw 3 cards next turn and proceed to combo at the end of his turn 3.
Game 2 - Turn 1 he plays a sol land, I play stage and petal to sylvan scry for a urborg (I have Depths in hand). He proceeds to never get a waste land and I win from there.

Match 3: Enchantress 0-2 (see above). I did manage to get 1 poison counter on him through humility with swinging with merit lage, hex mages and ESG before he went off.

Match 4: 2-0 vs UR delver?
This was a brutal match for him. He only ever played 3 lands, and 2 spells over 2 games.
Game 1 - I am on the play. I go stage and 2 petals with an ESG in hand. I into the north to get a depths into play. He plays a tarn and probes me and then scoops. Fastest game I have ever won.
Game 2 - Volcanic island into swiftspear. I play turn 1 chalice on 1 with urborg and ESG. Turn 2 fetch and swing. I play DD and put a hexmage into play with another ESG as back up. He scoops.

Match 5: 2-0 vs Grixis delver
Game 1 - On the draw. U Sea pass. Fetch a bayou, and duress which gets spell pierce. I play petal and pass. He misses a land drop and plays delver, pass. I play out hexmage which he attempts to daze, but I have ESG. I play depths from hand and pass. He replays his U sea, brainstorms and scoops.
Game 2 - longer game has he gets a Wasteland on turn 2, but I had a turn 1 chalice on 1. He chips away at me with DRS as I get more lands. Eventually I play out Stage, depths and 2 other lands. At EOT I attempt the combo and he wastes the depths (some thoughts on this later). I was hoping he would do this as I have an [cards]into the north in hand. On my turn I tutor up another depths and pass. I have just enough life that he can't kill me with DRS so I can combo for the win.


Very happy with the deck. Wish I had gotten gloom out against enchantress. Ok, question about the wasteland play against the combo. Is it correct for them to wasteland the depth or allow the copying to occur and then wasteland the copy after you choose to keep it. This seems better in my head, but after you have 2 legendary lands in play, does the opponent get priority back before you get to make Merit Lage?

[Negator77']

Very happy with the deck. Wish I had gotten gloom out against enchantress. Ok, question about the wasteland play against the combo. Is it correct for them to wasteland the depth or allow the copying to occur and then wasteland the copy after you choose to keep it. This seems better in my head, but after you have 2 legendary lands in play, does the opponent get priority back before you get to make Merit Lage?

Yes, the opponent gets priority back after you sac the Depths to the legend rule. They get the straight 2 for 1 if you can't play through their Wasteland with a Wasteland/Ghost Quarter of your own, a second Stage, Needle, or Hexmage. That is assuming proper play by the opponent.... which is far from assured since many players still don't fully understand the interaction.

[caprino]

Yes, the opponent gets priority back after you sac the Depths to the legend rule. They get the straight 2 for 1 if you can't play through their Wasteland with a Wasteland/Ghost Quarter of your own, a second Stage, Needle, or Hexmage. That is assuming proper play by the opponent.... which is far from assured since many players still don't fully understand the interaction.

matchup vs miracle and death and taxes is hard?

[ComplexPants]

matchup vs miracle and death and taxes is hard?


Yes. They are chock full of answers to the deck. People are on here are experimenting with gloom as sideboard tech against the deck, as most answers to our combo are white.

[DNSolver]

Got top 16 in the Legacy challenge today, missed top 8 on breakers and ended up in 11th or something.

R1: Dredge 2-0
This matchup is a bye.

R2: UR Delver 2-1

R3: UR weird Stasis stuff 2-0

R4: GW Cloudpost 2-0
Very interesting plays in these matches involving Primeval Titan and his Crop Rotations. Very skill based because both of our decks are based on tutors but obviously this deck is bigger when we are allowed to assemble our respective combos.

R5: Shardless BUG 1-2
Punted G1 by not using my fast mana to be a turn faster.

R6: Storm 1-2
Lost both sideboard games despite having Chalice on 0 and 1 in G2 and Chalice on 1 on turn 1 in G3. Ad Nauseam really got him there.

R7: Miracles
Was milling him with Drownyard in G2 but was one turn too slow. He graciously conceded to me after offering a prize split since I had higher breakers. I then missed and was sad.

[molaboy]

hi guys, what's the use of the ancient tomb in the sideboard?

[ComplexPants]

hi guys, what's the use of the ancient tomb in the sideboard?

Another way to turn 1 chalice. Or turn 1 gloom with petal, Turn 3 combo with Stage and depths. Just fast mana, but tutorable.

And grats DNSolver!

[Serch]

Got top 16 in the Legacy challenge today, missed top 8 on breakers and ended up in 11th or something.

First of all congrats for you results!

Could you, please, share your actual decklist and sideboard?

Thanks in advance!

[DNSolver]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/488939#online

I saw that someone played a turbo list with 4 Sphere of Resistance in the side over 4 Chalice. Definitely a fan of doing that. This would mean that instead of sideboarding in Chalices against Delver and stuff, we would leave in more discard...that's probably fine. I mostly want Spheres for Storm and our deck has a lot of 1 drops post board (Surgical, Crop Rot, discard, etc.), so putting Chalice on one is awkward. Spheres are dirt cheap on MTGO so I'm definitely going to try those next league.

Went 4-0 at a Legacy weekly today.

R1: Grixis Delver 2-0

R2: Shardless BUG 2-1
G2 I lost to Hymn hitting a Dark Depths. He surgicals it and we're on Hexmage beatdown plan. We actually almost have a chance because he draws a lot of lands in a row, but obviously our deck doesn't work right with no Marit Lages. This matchup is close if their deck is built with extra discard and more Baleful Strixes.

R3: Grixis Delver 2-1

R4: Death and Taxes 2-1 This was an amazing match. Game 1 was a really cool game. He had Vial on one and Thalia on two. I play out lands and a bunch of land searches, trying to outposition him on board. I get a Hexmage down but he's on threatening duty because of Karakas on the other side. I copy his Port with one of my Stages, setting up comboing after tapping his Karakas. However, on the turn I set up to do that, he activates his vial on 3 and puts in Mangara of Corondor... So close, would have won if that was one turn later... Game 2 he kept Vial, Council's Judgment, and triple Thalia, drawing a fourth Thalia on turn 3 or so. I Thoughtseize his Vial and bait out his Wasteland with my Urborg I used. He finds another Vial. I then search for Karakas with Sylvan Scrying and nullify esssentially his whole hand. He is locked into playing Thalia every turn due to not drawing any other relevant threats. I set up a combo and Not of This World his Flickerwisp he searched for with Recruiter of the Guard. Game 3 he doesn't have vial and I play a map and needle Karakas. I set up Hexmage combo with Dark Depths, but Marit Lage gets Pathed. I play another Depths and Hexmage. He tries to stop the combo with Flickerwisp but I Karakas his Thalia and Not of This World it.

[Negator77']

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/488939#online

R4: Death and Taxes 2-1 This was an amazing match. Game 1 was a really cool game. He had Vial on one and Thalia on two. I play out lands and a bunch of land searches, trying to outposition him on board. I get a Hexmage down but he's on threatening duty because of Karakas on the other side. I copy his Port with one of my Stages, setting up comboing after tapping his Karakas. However, on the turn I set up to do that, he activates his vial on 3 and puts in Mangara of Corondor... So close, would have won if that was one turn later... Game 2 he kept Vial, Council's Judgment, and triple Thalia, drawing a fourth Thalia on turn 3 or so. I Thoughtseize his Vial and bait out his Wasteland with my Urborg I used. He finds another Vial. I then search for Karakas with Sylvan Scrying and nullify esssentially his whole hand. He is locked into playing Thalia every turn due to not drawing any other relevant threats. I set up a combo and Not of This World his Flickerwisp he searched for with Recruiter of the Guard. Game 3 he doesn't have vial and I play a map and needle Karakas. I set up Hexmage combo with Dark Depths, but Marit Lage gets Pathed. I play another Depths and Hexmage. He tries to stop the combo with Flickerwisp but I Karakas his Thalia and Not of This World it.

Congrats on your recent finishes! Death and Taxes is simultaneously one of the most difficult and one of the most interesting match-ups. It feels like a giant chess match where perfect sequencing and doing the little things right often gets rewarded. Stages copying their lands is often a big inflection point. Sadly, a lot more D+T players are playing/boarding Paths nowadays. It makes their disruption suite in the MU even more robust.

[uncletiggy]

Im curious about the drownyard tech? Im only seeing 4 lotus petals to activate it what matchups is it for and how does it make itself relevant? Ive been playing essentially negators list preparing for baltimore but I've been looking into bastardizing negator and solvers approaches. Mainly looking to incorporate both brainstorm and not of this world.

For reference im playing the first list and looking at the second:


4 bstorm
4 crop rotation
4 sylvan scrying
2 expedition map

4 mox diamond
4 hexmage

1 duress
1 iok
4 thought seize
2 decay
2 pithing needle


4 stage
4 depths
4 urborg
2 gemstone caverns
2 bayou
1 forest
4 verdant
1 misty
1 usea
1 trop
1 seriji step
1 b bog
1 ghost quarter
1 karakas

1 sylvan library
1 lftl
3 pierce
1 ghost quarter
2 needle
2 grip
1 gemstone caverns
3 surgical
1 flex



4 hex mage
4 spirit guide
4 lotus petal

4 crop rotation
4 sylvan
4 brainstorm

4 ts
1 iok
1 duress
3 pithing needle
3 notw
1 decay

4 depths
4 stage
3 urborg
4 verdant
1 trop
1 sea
2 bayou
1 forest
1 serji
1 g quarter
1 bog

[Tommyfromrugrats]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/488939#online

I saw that someone played a turbo list with 4 Sphere of Resistance in the side over 4 Chalice. Definitely a fan of doing that. This would mean that instead of sideboarding in Chalices against Delver and stuff, we would leave in more discard...that's probably fine. I mostly want Spheres for Storm and our deck has a lot of 1 drops post board (Surgical, Crop Rot, discard, etc.), so putting Chalice on one is awkward. Spheres are dirt cheap on MTGO so I'm definitely going to try those next league.

Went 4-0 at a Legacy weekly today.

R1: Grixis Delver 2-0

R2: Shardless BUG 2-1
G2 I lost to Hymn hitting a Dark Depths. He surgicals it and we're on Hexmage beatdown plan. We actually almost have a chance because he draws a lot of lands in a row, but obviously our deck doesn't work right with no Marit Lages. This matchup is close if their deck is built with extra discard and more Baleful Strixes.

R3: Grixis Delver 2-1

R4: Death and Taxes 2-1 This was an amazing match. Game 1 was a really cool game. He had Vial on one and Thalia on two. I play out lands and a bunch of land searches, trying to outposition him on board. I get a Hexmage down but he's on threatening duty because of Karakas on the other side. I copy his Port with one of my Stages, setting up comboing after tapping his Karakas. However, on the turn I set up to do that, he activates his vial on 3 and puts in Mangara of Corondor... So close, would have won if that was one turn later... Game 2 he kept Vial, Council's Judgment, and triple Thalia, drawing a fourth Thalia on turn 3 or so. I Thoughtseize his Vial and bait out his Wasteland with my Urborg I used. He finds another Vial. I then search for Karakas with Sylvan Scrying and nullify esssentially his whole hand. He is locked into playing Thalia every turn due to not drawing any other relevant threats. I set up a combo and Not of This World his Flickerwisp he searched for with Recruiter of the Guard. Game 3 he doesn't have vial and I play a map and needle Karakas. I set up Hexmage combo with Dark Depths, but Marit Lage gets Pathed. I play another Depths and Hexmage. He tries to stop the combo with Flickerwisp but I Karakas his Thalia and Not of This World it.

That was my list! The spheres were originally just a budget concern as I don't own chalices on MTGO, and they turned out to be way better than I was expecting. Being able to thoughtseize/crop rotation after landing a sphere is really nice. I'm not sure if it is better than chalice or not, but I will continue testing both for the time being.

[DNSolver]

I can't wait until people start reading previous pages before posting.

You can activate Nephalia Drownyard after you copy your opponent's Island with your Thespian's Stage. Against Miracles your Stages are sitting on the board as threatening the combo, but you can make them do stuff. For example, you can copy your opponent's Karakas so that they can't win with Vendilion Clique beatdowns, or you can hit their Clique/Venser with Thoughtseize if you play well. But besides copying a basic land, your Stages can copy basics Islands and Nephalia Drownyard so you can mill them for up to 6 a turn. Plus Surgical Extractions become ridiculous - they strip win cons from the deck and mill the opponent for 2-3 cards as well! Secret mode...

The game I used Drownyard against Miracles in the Legacy Challenge, my opponent killed me with two mentor tokens exactly one turn before he was going to be decked.

Some more thoughts on Sphere of Resistance: it is a little worse than Chalice against Sneak and Show, but better against the Omni-Show lists because they can't combo win immediately after slamming Omniscience into play. I like it.

About the lists posted above: I assume Gemstone Caverns is actually Gemstone Mine. Karakas is probably not maindeck material, and I don't think Abrupt Decay is either. My list prefers unplayable garbage cards to Brainstorm, and I'm pretty sure that a hybrid list of unplayable cards will just let you Brainstorm into more unplayable cards. If you are going to play a value Depths plan like Negator77, go all out, I suggest.

[uncletiggy]

Its actually caverns not mine just recently switched the 3rd cavern to the board and maindecked the karakas. Brainstorm and diamond have mitigated the opportunity cost thus far enough to hold those slots. And g1 karakas really helps with bringing the sneak matchup closer to 50/50. Sorry i read the last three pages and there wasnt a whole lot of feed back on drownyard and if it had any utility outside of being stricktly for terminus.

[DNSolver]

Sneak matchup should be favorable. Drownyard is for milling Miracles players.

[apple713]

Sneak matchup should be favorable. Drownyard is for milling Miracles players.

Do you find that drownyard helps your opponent because it helps them dog for what they need with sdt? Or maybe not enough games to tell?

[Claymore]

I would expect it to turn into a cat/mouse bluffing game. Do you mill their top 3 that was set up with Top? Or do they get to draw the card they left on top? Or did they just rearrange extra pieces and don't actually need what's in the top 3?

They have to sacrifice their top in order to get the card they really want if you activate Drownyard, and if you can hold up a Surgical in response then that can ruin their day.