[Deck] Turbo Depths

[AmokPL]

Does anyone have some good advice how to beat Wipe Away? Sneak and Show is popular in my meta, and I keep running in to this card in PB games. Chalice on 3 is quite a stretch, is there anything better to be considered?

not much can be done apart from discarding it. You might consider Steely Resolve though.

[jdmdave]

Discard it. The Cunning Wish - Wipe Away path is so mana intensive that you rarely DONT see it coming.

[Motto82]

Discard it. The Cunning Wish - Wipe Away path is so mana intensive that you rarely DONT see it coming.

I guess you're confusing OmniTell for Sneak and Show here. The latter doesn't have a Wishboard, they simply board it in.
The Steely Resolve plan is something to keep in mind. If I keep foloding to it I'll probably resort that, seems I have to be a little more wary when I use my discard.
Other than that - surely the best way to approach this matchup is to outrace them, so does that mean we have to mulligan aggresively towards a fast hand? Or would you keep a very disruptive hand too?

[MBSegal]

I went 6-3 at GP Chiba. The deck was good, but I played against two Blood Moon stompy decks and got my teeth kicked in by both. I think those two both top 64'd and it makes sense since their deck was very well positioned given the prominence of Shardless and Eldrazi in Japan. My 3rd loss was against Shardless BUG. I think that match up is deceivingly difficult as Hymn is very good against this deck and you have to respect Wasteland, which opens you to Liliana. You only have so many Needles. On top of that, they have Baleful Strix which is essentially a Time Walk if you do not have Sejiri Steppe. I won game 2 with my sideboard plan, but I got Hymned out of game 3.

I decided early on that I thought Chalice was too narrow of a sideboard card. It felt as if it that the only bad match up it helped improve was the Storm one. After playing a few matches against storm, I realized the times I beat them, the Chalices were irrelevant. Bojuka Bog and Surgical are still somewhat relevant cards in that match up AND you can always just discard into 20/20 them. So once I was off Chalice, I tried Sphere of Resistence and came to the conclusion I did not like it. It just felt like it was just as narrow. I decided to hedge my fair match ups even more and just race the unfair ones.

I went 2-0 vs. Eldrazi, 2-0 vs. Miracles, 1-0 vs. Death and Taxes in this tournament. I have kept some stats from the 4 leagues I played in. I 5-0'd twice, playing against mostly Miracles/Eldrazi. There was no D&T online. I lost to Storm, Lands, and UR Delver each once.

Overall, I would not change my list from the GP. I put a lot of thought into it and like where I ended up. I think my sideboard gives a lot of play vs Edict effects and Surgical Extraction. It also is good against Discard.

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Lotus Petal
4 Pithing Needle
4 Thoughtseize
4 Crop Rotation
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Scrying
2 Into the North
1 Sylvan Library
2 Not of this World

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Bayou
2 Snow-covered Forest
1 Snow-covered Swamp
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe

3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Massacre
1 Not of this World
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas

Edit: I only 5-0'd one league. I am currently 4-0 in one on MTGO and remembered wrong

[jdmdave]

Did you see me? I Was around the X-2 tables for most of day 1, then X-3 all of day 2.

[MBSegal]

Nah. I saw nobody else playing the deck. On day 2. Last time I went X-3 at a gp, I didn't even top 32--so I played modern on Sunday

[Claymore]

Interesting sideboard, Shaman and Tracker in particular. I can sorta see Shaman, but I don't know if this deck is that well equipped at utilizing Tracker since we don't cycle through lands as much. What matchups and how have they performed? Assuming Shaman is good against Lands, Miracles (combat Snap).

I think something like Grim Flayer could be useful there (land, instant, sorcery, artifact), or back to the basics with Bob. A turn 1 Flayer could do some work.

[MBSegal]

I boarded in Shaman nearly every round. Good against decks you expect Snapcaster, Surgical, Blood Moon, Life from the Loam or Edict effects. I don't like it Maindeck since a lot of those are not main deck cards or entirely ubiquitous with the decks they appear in.

I found that Tracker was great. I tried Bob, but usually if they can solve your combo, then drawing cards is useless. And Bob himself is very ineffective. Tracker can win a game all on its own.

Grim Flayer is too slow and doesn't replace itself. If you play Loam or Crucible, maybe it's good? Idk.

[jdmdave]

Crucible fucking owned one of my day 2 miracles opponents in the x-2 bracket. ghost quarter stripmining his white sources was something fierce.

Why didn't you play day 2? X-3 gets there.

[MBSegal]

If I went 6-0 on the day I would have only won 250 dollars. The modern open was on Sunday, so I played in that instead so I could test for the invitational and I think my chances of top 8'ing that event were higher than 6-0'ing a legacy tournament.

[DNSolver]

Interesting sideboard plan above. I'm not a fan of Deathrite. I can understand wanting to run Massacre - I would probably run Dread of Night instead. Maindeck bog is a must IMO.

One of the reasons you are having trouble with Shardless BUG is that you're running Into the North and thus have a harder time tutoring Ghost Quarter. One of my friends on Shardless has given up trying to beat me without Diabolic Edicts. Any time we both draw reasonably the matchup shouldn't be too bad.

Interesting that Tracker was so good for you. Against Miracles it is still a one-creature threat, so it still dies to the cards they leave in for Marit Lage (Swords, Terminus, etc.) though being able to play it and hold up some fetches to get clue tokens seems okay. Not convinced though.

@Jdmdave: The problem I have with one-of specific answers like Crucible are that we can't tutor them like RG Lands with Gamble, and we don't have Top/Library to find them. Additionally, Miracles boards in Wear/Tears because they've been around the block with stupid artifacts/enchantments like Null Rod, Pithing Needle, Sylvan Library, etc. and expect these cards in G2, even assuming they didn't see our maindeck Needles in G1. Go read the Miracles thread for a bit - they know that noncreature permanents are good against them.

As for people saying turn 1 Bob / Grim Flayer -> these are still creature threats, and I'm 90% sure that boarding out fast mana against Miracles is correct. So that means turn 2 is what we're looking at. Examples of a reasonable threat that is worth fast mana: Bitterblossom. Not a creature threat, can come down on turn 1 relatively easily, demands a Wear/Tear or continued Terminus against Miracles. We already beat all the Abrupt Decay decks, so we wouldn't bring in Blossom against those. We would bring it in against Miracles, possibly Stoneblade, possibly Death and Taxes.

Now, I made arguments against Crucible being that it dies to Wear/Tear. Here's the difference: if Crucible sits in play long enough to Ghost Quarter all the white sources, we win. If Bitterblossom sits around long enough to kill our opponent, we win. However, assuming that it's interrupted somewhere along the way, say, four or five turns, they still have white sources, and unless we resolve another Crucible, we have accomplished nothing. At least Bitterblossom will create some tokens and pressure Miracles' options for a few turns, and demand a Terminus even if it gets hit by Wear/Tear.

Open to discussion on all these points.

...

tl;dr : Creatures like Bob/Grim Flayer don't solve the Miracles matchup. Bitterblossom is a better choice than Crucible if you're going to sideboard in several noncreature permanents against Miracles.

[MBSegal]

Nah. I am losing to Shardless for many reasons and the last of which is me not being able to find Ghost Quarter quite frankly lol.

Also, I prefer to play broad cards in formats like Legacy. A card like Dread of Night is not a card I want since I am not bringing it in against Miracles with this kind of deck. However, I will board Massacre in against a deck like Goblins, maybe 4color delver and elves as well. At the GP it killed Leonin Relic Warder which was another example of why I like having broader cards.

And against miracles, if they're using a Swords on my Tireless Tracker that is fine. It has generated me a clue and used up one of their Swords. You can also protect it with Sejiri Steppe which came up for me multiple times.

[Djehuti]

Now, I made arguments against Crucible being that it dies to Wear/Tear. Here's the difference: if Crucible sits in play long enough to Ghost Quarter all the white sources, we win. If Bitterblossom sits around long enough to kill our opponent, we win. However, assuming that it's interrupted somewhere along the way, say, four or five turns, they still have white sources, and unless we resolve another Crucible, we have accomplished nothing. At least Bitterblossom will create some tokens and pressure Miracles' options for a few turns, and demand a Terminus even if it gets hit by Wear/Tear.


While I'm on the fence about crucible, I would like to point out that the use of crucible isn't exclusively to recur GQ. Spamming the combo off of crucible has worked well for me before, and being able to keep DD out of the graveyard by replaying it minimizes the window an opponent has to surgically extract it.

[Negator77']

Nah. I am losing to Shardless for many reasons and the last of which is me not being able to find Ghost Quarter quite frankly lol.


What are you losing to? Strix is less of an issue with more copies of tutors that can fetch Steppe, then some # of Decays post board. Wasteland is also less of an issue with more tutors that can grab your own Waste/Ghost Quarter/Stage. Getting hymned out of the game is unlikely to happen too often since you usually get a shot at casting a discard spell in front of it. The match-up has been a favorable one in my experience (~75 matches between online and paper).

[jdmdave]

I'll write a response later today, but tldr. Worm harvest is the card you REALLY want if crushing miracles is your plan. Crucible is also fine, but the ugin/coffers/emrakul plan is too sideboard slot intensive. Creature based solutions are subpar since miracles can use terminus/STP.

[apple713]

I agree with negator about the shardless match. I would even say that we might have a better % than 75. If i lose to shardless its due to shit luck. They likely got all of their potentially useful cards, got lucky on a hymn, and / or i had a slow hand.

As for finding other answers to miracles, i like bitterblossom. On paper it sounds really good. Worm harvest seems ok too but significantly slower. With worm harvest life from the loam would be better.

As for emrakul, id just run the original one. It becomes a 3 card combo which is only 1 more than what we are currently going for. It gives you an alternate win condition if you are worried about surgical. However it is more mana intensive. You would need 8 lands 3 of which were coffers urborg and eye of ugin. I played a version of this deck that was a hybrid of dark depths and cloudpost. Crushed miracles but lost other matches it should because i warped the deck too much. With only 3 cards its not a big issue. Its not a great plan but emrakul shuffles grave after being milled by painter and might buy you some turns. Its also a card you could board in against show and tell decks, and they would never see it coming.

[DNSolver]

Playing a $1k tomorrow with my typical maindeck.

Sideboard:

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Chalice of the Void (could replace with Thorns / Spheres, but I think I'll stick to these)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Karakas
1 Urza's Factory (alternative is Emrakul the Promised End + Eye of Ugin, no Cabal Coffers. I don't think that it is necessary / realistic to play the Coffers as well, though it might be necessary?)

If there are posts in the morning I'll review before submitting a decklist.

[ComplexPants]

I'll still advocate for a crucible. But I am beginning to think 4 extractions is correct.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DNSolver]

$1k went okay.

R1 Maverick 2-0 both games I have Not of This World and a relatively quick combo. He does nothing turn 1 on the play in G2 and I know he's dead instantly.

R2 Red Aluren 2-0

R3 Mono-Red Sneak Attack 1-2. G1 he plays Chalice and then threatens until I have to play spells into Chalice. Fortunately he forgets his triggers and I win in disbelief. G2 I get turn 1'd by a hasty Worldspine Wurm. G3 I Thoughtseize him and take Sneak Attack, leaving him with Griselbrand and 5 lands. Of course he topdecks Sneak Attack and I die on turn 3, one turn too slow.

R4 Manaless Dredge 2-0

R5 Death and Taxes 1-2 Interesting games, too many lines of play to explain here. G1 he mulled to 5 and died. I could have mulled for a better hand in G3 but it had lands, half the combo, a Ghost Quarter, and a hexmage. My opponent was scared of my deck and thought the matchup seemed bad for him, despite him having 2 Banisher Priest in his hand in G3 that made my plays weird.

R6 UB Faeries (?) 2-0. Submerge didn't do anything because I didn't play a forest.

4-2 overall, deck felt strong. Didn't play against Miracles so I couldn't try the Urza's Factory. If someone wants to play Miracles against me on MTGO sometime message me because I really want to get testing in for that.

[studderingdave]

I just jumped into this deck as a project. Normally a DnT player i wanted to build a second deck. Thanks to all for the great info, im still building the deck up right now.

[Motto82]

Played a Legacy monthly today, finished 4-1

R1 2-0 over Eldrazi. Both games he starts with turn 1 amethyst, but I power through both turns on t3 anyway (g1 on a mull to 5).

R2 2-0 over RG Lands. G1 I have a turn 2 token. G2 I extract his loams, have wasteland covered with needle and have a window on my 6th turn.

R3 2-0 win vs UR Painter. G1 turn 2 token. G2 is a long grindfest in which I manage to combo.

R4 0-2 loss vs Death and Taxes. G1 I have 3 needles but no NotW for Swords and can't combo, die to beats. G2 I strip his hand, and wipe his board but don't have any follow-up and eventually die.

R5 2-1 over Rg Lands. G1 bog away 3 loams, needle his wasteland, it's a long grind in which I eventually manage to come out on top. G2 I mull to 6 and keep a very reactive hand. In spite of me fighting, I end up manascrewed and he comboes. G3 in the 3rd turn of extra turns he is forced to go for it (I'm 3-1, he is 2-1-1 and needs the win). He crop rotates for the combo , takes his turn, attacks, I crop rotate for the combo, block. Untap win in the 5th turn. A draw would've locked t8 too (but not for him).

Top 8 split.

Had some tough mulligan decisions but was happy w/ my play overall barring a few mistakes. Unfortunately no Miracles, which I do expect to face in a Legacy Invational I'm playing in two weeks in my country.
Has anyone considered Nissa, Vital Force for this matchup? She seems to be doing a lot of things we all want in the matchup.
+1 attack for five.
-2 return a permanent
ult is card advantage

I'm thinking of testing her.

[ComplexPants]

Grats on the results.

Nissa seems good, but I worry about the double green, also 5 mana seems like a lot. But otherwise she would fit the deck well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DNSolver]

I analyzed all the playable planeswalkers a few pages ago. Most playable are Garruk Relentless and Ob Nixilis Reignited, potentially also Freyalise.

Some results for utility land testing in the Miracles matchup:

Urza's Factory is playable. Once it gets going you're only worried about Mentor racing you or Blood Moon / Back to Basics shutting you down, so play accordingly. Only 2 post-board games of testing with this.

Similarly, once a land that requires 7 other lands to function is playable, so is Eye of Ugin. I believe the best card to get is Emrakul, the Promised End (could be wrong), which is usually castable on 8 lands (assuming Urborg is in play to make Depths + Eye tap for mana) since Eye reduces by 2 more. I tested this for 2 post-board games today. Really screws with their setup and can reset their boardstate, hand, and/or top 3 to clear a way for Marit Lage, particularly if Hexmage is already in play (can combo immediately after their extra turn). Are you going to use it like a Mindslaver and absolutly destroy them? No. However, they do need to Force / Counterspell it to stop it from being inevitable, and it is certainly very annoying.

[apple713]

I analyzed all the playable planeswalkers a few pages ago. Most playable are Garruk Relentless and Ob Nixilis Reignited, potentially also Freyalise.

Some results for utility land testing in the Miracles matchup:

Urza's Factory is playable. Once it gets going you're only worried about Mentor racing you or Blood Moon / Back to Basics shutting you down, so play accordingly. Only 2 post-board games of testing with this.

Similarly, once a land that requires 7 other lands to function is playable, so is Eye of Ugin. I believe the best card to get is Emrakul, the Promised End (could be wrong), which is usually castable on 8 lands (assuming Urborg is in play to make Depths + Eye tap for mana) since Eye reduces by 2 more. I tested this for 2 post-board games today. Really screws with their setup and can reset their boardstate, hand, and/or top 3 to clear a way for Marit Lage, particularly if Hexmage is already in play (can combo immediately after their extra turn). Are you going to use it like a Mindslaver and absolutly destroy them? No. However, they do need to Force / Counterspell it to stop it from being inevitable, and it is certainly very annoying.

if your plan is to have 8 lands when using urza's factory just test emrakul 1.0. Best thing Miracles can do is terminus to buy 1 turn. Its why miracles pretty much ALWAYS loses to 12 post. Urzas factory is 1 card as opposed to 3 but inferior to emrakul.

[Lio]

Some results for utility land testing in the Miracles matchup:

Urza's Factory is playable. Once it gets going you're only worried about Mentor racing you or Blood Moon / Back to Basics shutting you down, so play accordingly. Only 2 post-board games of testing with this.
.

Finally built the deck again after year or so. I remember testing Mishra'Factory against Miracles back then when dig was legal and we had to maindeck Pyroblasts. And Mishra's Factory was way too slow to reliably kill an opponent. Creeping Tar Pit was a bit better because of 3 power and unblock able, but stretched Mana base way too much. I like idea of playing emrakul though!

[ottomanottoman]

Top 8'ed an SCG IQ this past weekend going 3-0-2 (2x ID into top 8) beating bant blade, food chain, and eldrazi in the swiss and then loosing to omni-tell in the quarters of top 8. I had a deluge main instead of the 3rd NotW and LOVED it. It had moments in all 3 swiss matches. Omni-tell/Sneak and Show seem like rough/coin-flippy matchups that I definitely need to test more.

[apple713]

Finally built the deck again after year or so. I remember testing Mishra'Factory against Miracles back then when dig was legal and we had to maindeck Pyroblasts. And Mishra's Factory was way too slow to reliably kill an opponent. Creeping Tar Pit was a bit better because of 3 power and unblock able, but stretched Mana base way too much. I like idea of playing emrakul though!

Depending on how much creature removal you run, i generally have more so my matches against d&t run longer, you might find emrakul is viable there too as a win con. The emrakul plan b is very strong because its strong agaist everyrhing marit lage is weak against.

Im actually surprised though that people seem to be having so much trouble with miracles and D&T but have not discussed ANT nearly as much. Maybe its under represented? Ant was always an issue for my versions because they are faster in all aspects and decently resilient to discard. Ive been able to fight. through it with liliana of the veil but im fairly certain no one else plays her.

[DNSolver]

@Apple: How are we supposed to cast Emrakul 1.0? My previous testing is without Cabal Coffers, and I think you are interpreting my results as having Cabal Coffers. Another land search would be difficult, not sure how I feel about another land to search out.

ANT hasn't been nearly as much of a problem as Miracles or Death and Taxes with my plan of 4 Surgicals 4 Chalices out of the board.

[ottomanottoman]

Im actually surprised though that people seem to be having so much trouble with miracles and D&T but have not discussed ANT nearly as much. Maybe its under represented? Ant was always an issue for my versions because they are faster in all aspects and decently resilient to discard. Ive been able to fight. through it with liliana of the veil but im fairly certain no one else plays her.


I agree that ANT has been tough. Discard helps but their deck is so redundant that often they can rip a topdeck that nullifies that discard. A lot of storm players default to the past in flames kill which you can sometimes get them with a crop into bog but the good storm players should see that coming. Sphere helps if they don't rip it out of your hand or go off before you play it.

[bakofried]

@Apple: How are we supposed to cast Emrakul 1.0? My previous testing is without Cabal Coffers, and I think you are interpreting my results as having Cabal Coffers. Another land search would be difficult, not sure how I feel about another land to search out.

ANT hasn't been nearly as much of a problem as Miracles or Death and Taxes with my plan of 4 Surgicals 4 Chalices out of the board.
Could you post/link to your latest list? I'm trying this out tomorrow and would like to take a peek.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

[DNSolver]

Current paper list:

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Not of This World
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog

SB:
3-4 Chalice of the Void*
3-4 Surgical Extraction*
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Pithing Needle
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Karakas

*Can't decide whether to play 3 Chalice or 3 Surgical in the board. Maindeck is solid.

Current online testing list, same as above with the following changes:
-1 Duress
-1 Elvish Spirit Guide
-0-1 Sylvan Scrying
+2-3 Sylvan Library

SB:
same

[bakofried]

Why the differences between the two lists? Meta? Budget? Or is one just more experimental than the other?

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

[apple713]

@Apple: How are we supposed to cast Emrakul 1.0? My previous testing is without Cabal Coffers, and I think you are interpreting my results as having Cabal Coffers. Another land search would be difficult, not sure how I feel about another land to search out.

ANT hasn't been nearly as much of a problem as Miracles or Death and Taxes with my plan of 4 Surgicals 4 Chalices out of the board.

To cast emrakul 1.0 you would need coffers. There is no way around that. However if miracles is really that bad for you getting rid of karakas for a coffers might be worth it. Certainly worth testing. karakas is usually the first to get cut in my experience. Seems to be meta dependant. Like if you have alot of reanimator and s&t.

[ComplexPants]

So has anyone looked at Pia's Revolution from Aether Revolt? I think there may be some synergy for our deck. It is stupid good with Lotus petal and would be very good with map. I am not sure how to do it now, but it would be interesting to use this card as an alternative win con if we need to play a long game.

[DNSolver]

I don't understand how that card will help much. In the best case scenario where our opponent takes 3 every time, it's going to take more than half our artifacts to do enough damage. Further, wouldn't you rather have a consistent damage source such as Curse of the Pierced Heart? That's a card that actually does something in the extreme long game.

[ComplexPants]

I don't understand how that card will help much. In the best case scenario where our opponent takes 3 every time, it's going to take more than half our artifacts to do enough damage. Further, wouldn't you rather have a consistent damage source such as Curse of the Pierced Heart? That's a card that actually does something in the extreme long game.

I am not sure there is anything there speicifically, but Petal + Revolution seemed to be interesting. Always looking for a plan B in a combo deck, even though we are more or less all in on the combo.

[tarmogoat]

I think Pia's Revolution belongs in a Smokestack/Tangle Wire deck, can't really see it shining in Dark Depths.

[apple713]

@Negator77, if you are still playing the blue version of the deck, do you think disallow has any place in the deck? Its a voidslime for 1UU. I've been waiting for a card like this for a long time but hoping it cost less.

[Negator77']

@Negator77, if you are still playing the blue version of the deck, do you think disallow has any place in the deck? Its a voidslime for 1UU. I've been waiting for a card like this for a long time but hoping it cost less.

I haven't been able to make it out to a paper tourney since August and have only played in a few leagues and the legacy community league online over the past three months, but yeah I'm still on BUG when I get to play. Double blue and 1 is rough to have up when you need it. I don't dislike the card in general, it just requires 6+ lands/mana (full land combo + this card) or Hexmage/Depths and 3 mana (two of which needs to be blue). Even with the tri lands and moxes, that's a big ask in a reasonable time frame where windows are small in some of the match-ups you would want it in.

I've been doing well against D+T, Maverick, Eldrazi+ Taxes, and Miracles recently in the community league by running Stifle. It hits basically all of the main problem cards outside of STP which the deck has a ton of answers too... As an additional answer to Wasteland and especially Top into protected Plow or countering a Terminus miracle trigger.... it has been solid.

[UseLess]

Could you post the BUG decklist with stifles? That sounds awesome.

[Lio]

Current paper list:

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Not of This World
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog

SB:
3-4 Chalice of the Void*
3-4 Surgical Extraction*
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Pithing Needle
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Karakas

*Can't decide whether to play 3 Chalice or 3 Surgical in the board. Maindeck is solid.

Current online testing list, same as above with the following changes:
-1 Duress
-1 Elvish Spirit Guide
-0-1 Sylvan Scrying
+2-3 Sylvan Library

SB:
same

If you go Emrakul plan against Miracles, do you board in Chalice of the Void? To setup big Emrakul manabase, you need to have thespian stage, urborg, eye of ugin and Cabal coffers. You probably draw one of these naturally, tutor the rest. Plus you must have dark depths to threaten kill. With such requirements, CotV@1 or 2 will significantly jeopardize your plan to assemble all lands and you may end up with nothing. Haven't tried it yet except sample hands against the wall.

[jdmdave]

Acquired missing bayous on day 2 of the GP and 5-0ed my local monthly tournament using the emrakul plan. Deck is straight FIRE.

* 3 Bayou
* 2 Snow Lands
* 1 GQ
* 1 Steppe
* 12 Combo Lands
* 3 Marsh
* 1 Bog
* 4 Crop
* 2 Into
* 2 Expedition Map
* 4 ESG
* 4 Petal
* 4 Duress
* 4 Tseize
* 4 Scrying
* 4 Hexmage
* 3 Needle
* 2 Notw

Sideboard

* 3 Surgical
* 4 Sphere
* 1 Karakas
* 3 Abrupt Decay
* 1 Emrakul
* 1 Eye of Ugin
* 1 Needle
* 1 Cabal Coffers

[apple713]

Acquired missing bayous on day 2 of the GP and 5-0ed my local monthly tournament using the emrakul plan. Deck is straight FIRE.

* 3 Bayou
* 2 Snow Lands
* 1 GQ
* 1 Steppe
* 12 Combo Lands
* 3 Marsh
* 1 Bog
* 4 Crop
* 2 Into
* 2 Expedition Map
* 4 ESG
* 4 Petal
* 4 Duress
* 4 Tseize
* 4 Scrying
* 4 Hexmage
* 3 Needle
* 2 Notw

Sideboard

* 3 Surgical
* 4 Sphere
* 1 Karakas
* 3 Abrupt Decay
* 1 Emrakul
* 1 Eye of Ugin
* 1 Needle
* 1 Cabal Coffers

Is that emrakul, the aeons torn or the other one? And could you elaborate on how emrakul performed?

[ns407]

what do you guys bring chalice in for? what do you take out, crop rotation?

[studderingdave]

@JDMDave how do you like not having catacombs? I am currently building depths and they are the last item on my list.

[AmokPL]

what do you guys bring chalice in for? what do you take out, crop rotation?

Chalice rips UR delver and burn. I also side it in against Lands and Reanimator depending whether on play. Depending what you play against I would side out Crops or some discard.

Also I played without the catacombs using Foothills and Heath's and I am glad I acquired VC. The deck feels much smoother now. Obviously you can play with other G fetches but there will come time that you will be f...ed for not having them (happened many times against Painter or other decks using Blood Moon)

[Deckerator]

Played a match against BG Deck.
They had 1x Karakas and Liliana and Pox main.
Out of the board they had Surgical Extraction. In one of the matches my Dark Depths got surgicaled away...I won by Hexmage beatdown, but wasnt easy.
We heavily rely on Dark Depths. If this happens is there a chance to avoid it or something else i havent seen yet?

[MBSegal]

Played in a ~60 person event this weekend (an IQ or something with a cute name). Split top 4 with the same list I played in Chiba (already have byes and invites). My one loss was to a deck with Wasteland/Liliana/Hymn. Still think those are the most difficult match ups.


Played a match against BG Deck.
They had 1x Karakas and Liliana and Pox main.
Out of the board they had Surgical Extraction. In one of the matches my Dark Depths got surgicaled away...I won by Hexmage beatdown, but wasnt easy.
We heavily rely on Dark Depths. If this happens is there a chance to avoid it or something else i havent seen yet?

I play Deathrite Shamans and Tireless Tracker in my sideboard. It also is good against Liliana which is one of the most difficult cards to beat as well. You also can also board in your own Surgicals and use them to counter their Surgicals. I think that's pretty narrow and am not a huge fan. I had 1 Noxious Revival for a bit, but that was bad since it only came in against decks I thought might be bringing in extraction, which is loose.

[jdc5011]

Took the following list to a 20 person local duel for duals.

4 hexmage
4 elvish spirit guide
4 lotus petal
4 duress
4 thoughtseize
4 crop rotation
3 neddle
3 not of this world
4 sylvan scrying
3 exp map
4 verdant
2 bayou
1 cavern of souls
1 ghost quarter
4 dark depths
4 thesp stage
1 bojuka bog
1 forest
1 swamp
1 sejiri step
3 urbog

Side
1 Karakas
1 eye of ugin
1 emtakul the promised end
4 abrupt decay
4 surgical
1 maze of ith
1 life from the loam
1 toxic deluge
1 needle

Went 3-1-1 with ID into top 8 (4th overall). Top 8 split but feel like I could've taken my op round 1 (BUG standstill).

Round 1 (grixis painter)
Game 1 saw him grindstone me out the turn before I could token him. Pyroblast on urborg was rough. Game 2 was fast turn 2 or 3 token. Game 3 went real long. He has kept recurring strix with welder till I could finally find a needle. He tried to duplicant my token but got blown out by NotW. 1-0

Round 2 (burn)
We both had nut draws both games. I got him in 2 with lethal in the board next turn. Most notable was having 2 esg in hand to abrupt decay his turn 3 ensnaring bridge and still make the token. 2-0

Round 3 (miracles)
He had every answer. I had not of this world for swords but was blind flipped terminus was rough. Game 2 surgical dark depths while I had crop rotation and bojuka bog in hand. 2-1

Round 4 (miracles)
Game 1 ripped his hand apart with 3 thoughtseize and 1 duress. Game 2 misplay on my part since I knew he didn't have a counter in hand on my turn but waited to crop rotate at the end of his turn and got blown out with CS. Got it after a few back and forth battles. 3-1

Round 5 (Nic Fit)
ID into top 8

Overall I was impressed with the speed and redundancy of the list. I'm not sold on Karakas but didn't have to fight reanimator or S&T so can't really say. Never got to use deluge. Missing chalice was a hindrance since I'm sure it would've helped my miracles match. Pretty sold on the deck and feel like it's well positioned since we're good against all the decks that crush miracles. Also still trying to figure out the SB plan so I'm sure it will get better once I get that figured out.

Question for you veteran pilots out there. Say you have either exp map in play or scrying in hand and neither combo piece. Do you blindly go find one of the combo lands in the hopes of ripping the other or finding another tutor? Or would you rather wait to find one then tutor the one you need. I feel like the deck isn't designed to dirdle around looking for answers and I certainly don't want to be in a spot where I could've won if I acted sooner. On the other hand, getting half the combo blindly then ripping the same half off the top of the library feels really bad.

[DNSolver]

Glad to see you are picking up the deck and are happily surprised by its power level and consistency. I have a few questions about your list for you to elaborate on:

1) Cavern of Souls? What's the idea there?
2) How was the Emrakul plan for you against Miracles?

As far as your question about whether to search aggressively or wait for a combo piece, it's a difficult question that usually depends on the matchup. G1 against decks that have inevitability (Miracles, Death and Taxes probably) you probably are best off searching when you can. All things being equal, I would grab Depths first because then you have 4 more ways to topdeck combo in your 4 Hexmages. However, Stage might be better to get in some scenarios, because it can copy something to fix your mana (ex. Bayou, basic Swamp) or provide utility (ex. Karakas against Death and Taxes).

Against more aggressive decks like Eldrazi it's also better to search ASAP because of Thought-Knot Seer and fast clocks like Reality Smasher that pressure your life total.

Again, all of these awkward scenarios are assuming that you don't have either combo piece - this means a) you mulligan'd a lot and will probably losee anyway, b) you kept a bad hand with neither combo piece, c) you let your land get Wastelanded or something, d) you already tried to combo and it didn't work. Discounting a and b, I would search out either the one you have fewest copies of, or Depths if you have no utility for a Stage.

[jdc5011]

Awesome. Thanks for the insight. Makes a lot of sense. As for cavern, it was a last minute addition since I had seen a lot of talk on here about reducing the forest count to blank submerge and didn't have any other BG non forest land. Honestly, I never felt a lack of green and cavern was helpful getting a hexmage out through pyroblast against painter. Also round 4 against miracles I had eye and cavern in hand. Didn't come down to it since I won with a token but a reasonable play would've been to name eldrazi and jam emrakul through force. I only brought it in for 2 matches but he gave me at least an out after my depths got surgicaled. I'm a little skeptical because miracles can still deal with him via counter or terminus.

As for chalice, it seems like it's something that would help fight miracles. Although I really liked the discard against them, chalice on 1 blanks swords and top. Thoughts? I know there's a lot of back and forth between chalice and sphere. I didn't run either but also didn't have to fight storm.

[Claymore]

Against Miracles with the Emrakul board, your only worry is having Emrakul countered. If she goes to the graveyard, she's done forever. Terminus isn't a big deal since you can tutor her back with Eye, and if you get to take their turn then you can nullify any incoming answers anyway. Is Promised End castable without a coffers?

Cavern of souls is interesting but I feel the deck has a lack of actual colored mana sources in my limited testing with it.

For Chalice, I think you'd want to expend all your discard before landing it, since it's such a haymaker for this deck.

[apple713]

Against Miracles with the Emrakul board, your only worry is having Emrakul countered. If she goes to the graveyard, she's done forever. Terminus isn't a big deal since you can tutor her back with Eye, and if you get to take their turn then you can nullify any incoming answers anyway. Is Promised End castable without a coffers?

Cavern of souls is interesting but I feel the deck has a lack of actual colored mana sources in my limited testing with it.

For Chalice, I think you'd want to expend all your discard before landing it, since it's such a haymaker for this deck.

this is one of the many reasons that emrakul 1.0 is better. never worry about countering.

[Namida]

For people playing Emrakul, the Promised End, are you actually worried about Emrakul being countered? I mean...do you need the body? Can you usually set up the game so that taking your opponent's turn messes them up enough for you to win the game with a Marit Lage?

[jdc5011]

Even though it didn't come to it, I was almost able to cast new emrakul for 5 (land, artifact, instant, creature, sorcery and tribal in the gy and reduced 2 more from eye). Also my cavern was on eldrazi so I wasn't worried about counters. But yes after my dark depths got surgicaled, my miracles op basically kept up force for emrakul the whole game.

For those trying emrakul 1.0, how do you plan to get the mana for him? Just wondering.

[uncletiggy]

I am really curious why emrakul 2.0 is a better two card alternate win condition then say dread statuary or worm harvest. Emrakul is uncastable anyway if rip is out so that major downside is a moot point on worm harvest. And both dodge counterspells better then emmy. You cant really find worm harvest outside of those playing the single loam, but your whole deck tutors the statuary?

[DNSolver]

@uncletiggy :

Dread Statuary and other mandlands don't do anything against Swords to Plowshares, and we can't get them back from the graveyard if blocked by Clique / Snapcaster without Crucible of Worlds or Life from the Loam.

Worm Harvest isn't tutorable while Emrakul 2.0 is by Eye of Ugin.

[AmokPL]

Thrun, The Last Troll?

[uncletiggy]

I'm aware of the plan it just feels like a lot has to go right for it to even pressure the opponent. Im super ok if dread statuary draws a plow or terminus and gives me an opportunity to extract them without the card disadvantage of making a token or forcing a jace to tick up instead of brainstorming. Im just not sold on emmy beong worth 2 slots in the board. But i havent tried it, also dont get me wrong i am not playing statuary or worm harvest just providing other alternate one(two) card wincons. Emrakul feels like it would be super bad in the dnt matchup and not so great against white eldrazi, everything else it feels like more protection to force the token threw would be better options. Idk tho just spitballing

[jdc5011]

What's your game plan against miracles? I am super worried about having another out considering how easy it is for them to find surgical and deal with our token.

[ottomanottoman]

I haven't been able to make it out to a paper tourney since August and have only played in a few leagues and the legacy community league online over the past three months, but yeah I'm still on BUG when I get to play. Double blue and 1 is rough to have up when you need it. I don't dislike the card in general, it just requires 6+ lands/mana (full land combo + this card) or Hexmage/Depths and 3 mana (two of which needs to be blue). Even with the tri lands and moxes, that's a big ask in a reasonable time frame where windows are small in some of the match-ups you would want it in.

I've been doing well against D+T, Maverick, Eldrazi+ Taxes, and Miracles recently in the community league by running Stifle. It hits basically all of the main problem cards outside of STP which the deck has a ton of answers too... As an additional answer to Wasteland and especially Top into protected Plow or countering a Terminus miracle trigger.... it has been solid.

I'd be interested in seeing your latest list especially since you've added stifles. I'm pretty content with my BG build so far sans trying out the emrakul side board plan and wanted to play around with a BUG list.

[Negator77']

I'd be interested in seeing your latest list especially since you've added stifles. I'm pretty content with my BG build so far sans trying out the emrakul side board plan and wanted to play around with a BUG list.

Its basically my list from the primer minus 2 Mana Confluence and minus 1 Expedition Map in the main for a Gemstone Mine and two flex slots. I've been alternating between moving Needle(s) to the main deck (adding Stifles to the SB in their place) and running Stifle(s) main. Another slot was opened up in the sideboard by taking out the 3rd Flusterstorm for a Stifle since combo has been on the downswing for a while now and Stifle is still serviceable in some of those spots. Those changes, which amount to trimming a land (28 true mana sources still), a map (9 tutors still), and a combo SB card opens up three slots to mess with.

[Lio]

Played in 32 player event and finished with mediocre 3:2. Deck felt good (Oran's EW decklist with Emrakul SB plan), I made some mistakes while sideboarding I am sure and I should have mulliganed more.

R1: BUG Shardless 2:0 - opponent does not have the answers in both games
R2: RG Lands 1:2 - G1 Opponent gets time with Rishadan Ports and assembles combo faster than me. G2 I have quickly token with NotW against Karakas. G3 Opp goes all in on his second turn. I have crop rotation, hexmage, bayou, spirit guides and a sylvan. Somehow I thought I have two Crop Rotations (got confused with new art ..) so I let his Thespian+Depths resolve instead of Crop Rotate into Ghost Quarter. Well, I have only single crop and can't do anything and lose.
R3: Miracles 2:0 - Opponent was mana screwed g1 and double ESG + Hexmage + discard + needle@top got me there. Boarded in emrakul 1.0 + coffers + ugin. I demolish opponent's hand and happily assembling Emrakul plan. Opp topdecks Ensnaring Bridge and two turns later From the Ashes. I am able to create Token and draw removal for his bridge.
R4: 4C Midrange 1:2 - G1 I have needle for his wasteland into combo. G2 and G3 follow same scenario - I end up with 0 cards in hand and two and zero lands. This deck has Wastelands, ton of counterspells, Edicts, discard. It was annihilation.
R5: Grixis Delver 2:0 - easy games.

To assemble Emrakul 1.0 against Miracles is doable unless we meet land destruction. I will try the plan tomorrow, but I am not sold yet.

What do you guys do against something like 4C Midrange? Deck is very grindy and unless we have fast token with discard backup, I don't see this matchup to be positive. Opponent said after the game he boarded out almost all creatures (left only Deathrite Shamans and Snapcasters in) for extra removal of any kind. I was thinking about Delve creatures (Tasigur+Karakas, Gurmag) against such decks not playing white. Or Tireless Tracker as someone mentioned before. Problem is in my LGS there are 4 people on 4C Midrange and I need a gameplan against them. Opinions?

[jdmdave]

After more testing I'm back to the 1 bayou + fetchland plan. More synergy with library.

As for emrakul, I should've specificed Emrakul 1.0 as its (1) uncounterable, (2) recurrable, & (3) can't be delt with PERIOD.

Specifically:

* immune to swords
* Jace is irrelevant
* Terminus puts it back in the deck as opposed to in the yard (surgical)
* can be recurred with ugin

[apple713]

After more testing I'm back to the 1 bayou + fetchland plan. More synergy with library.

As for emrakul, I should've specificed Emrakul 1.0 as its (1) uncounterable, (2) recurrable, & (3) can't be delt with PERIOD.

Specifically:

* immune to swords
* Jace is irrelevant
* Terminus puts it back in the deck as opposed to in the yard (surgical)
* can be recurred with ugin

i think the only thing that gets emrakul 1.0 is council's judgment but I'm not sure that its widely run in miracles any more. If it is it's still a 1-2 of max.

So I take it that Emrakul 1.0 worked all for you?

[ComplexPants]

Just out of curiosity how many times do you feel chalice lost you a game/match versus won the game/match for you? I am a bit salty from a loss to elves in a league last night where my turn 1 chalice on 1 basically lost me the game.

I am debating moving away from the prison route and going towards other options like emrakul and more hate, just because that doesn't threaten our game plan as much.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Claymore]

Has anyone actually resolved an Emrakul yet? Seems most recent reports talk about assembling the combo and then just Marit Laging anyway.

[Lio]

Played against Miracles yesterday, drawing 1:1. I was able to assemble Emrakul combo in second game on one life. Game took at least 15 turns with me drawing only three tutor spells and resolving only one! I would not be able to win without Emrakul.

[MBSegal]

Just out of curiosity how many times do you feel chalice lost you a game/match versus won the game/match for you? I am a bit salty from a loss to elves in a league last night where my turn 1 chalice on 1 basically lost me the game.

I am debating moving away from the prison route and going towards other options like emrakul and more hate, just because that doesn't threaten our game plan as much.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've never thought Chalice was any good in this deck. Casting it for 1 is basically bad for the deck itself. Casting it for 0 stops a few cards from Storm, but they can easily win through a Chalice on 0 with a high % of hands.

[adrieng]

Chalice is not for elf or tempo ; it is for miracle and storm
@1 against miracle after you are sure you can cheat a marit lage it makes it go for the kill except a one time terminus with a top already in play.
If they answer it that's fine you still have your surgical ; against storm you cast it most of the time for zero avoiding a fast kill while still using your discard.

I started playing with it ; but people didn't read me or didn't understand against which matchups this card was aiming to anwser.

@Apple : can you delete the sideboard strategy in the primer from my older list it is not anylonguer appropriate (stuff with ratchet bomb/sylvan library ...) you could put instead a sideboard strategy from turbo list (which I think are weaker) with guide and petal if someone did the side stratgey as they should

[Claymore]

I'm looking at the sideboard guide that jmdave put together here - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28813-Deck-Dark-Depths&p=979743&viewfull=1#post979743

This guide used Sphere instead of Chalice, and would take out Scrying/Into the North when bringing in spheres.

With 4x Chalice, would we just side out the Crops instead as a 1:1 with Chalice? Or do we want both in as a possible fast play? The matches are the Combo matches - ANT, Belcher, TinFins etc. where you'd probably want to Crop Bog at some point.

[hymnyou]

I've never thought Chalice was any good in this deck. Casting it for 1 is basically bad for the deck itself. Casting it for 0 stops a few cards from Storm, but they can easily win through a Chalice on 0 with a high % of hands.

Agreed, always thought it was a mediocre to poor choice.

[studderingdave]

I have moved over to spheres myself. In limited testing I have been ahead only to be knocked out due to my own chalice on one. I understand that the deck is meant to be fast but it just didnt jive with me.

[molaboy]

Agreed, always thought it was a mediocre to poor choice.

chalice for 0 is so good against ANT and TES.
chalice for 1 is so good against Elves, Delver and Burn.

Yes crop rotation can be hit for chalice for 1 vs miracles but i normally side them out because im scared of the counterspell. but chalice for 1 against them is so good.

[Negator77']

chalice for 0 is so good against ANT and TES.
chalice for 1 is so good against Elves, Delver and Burn.

Yes crop rotation can be hit for chalice for 1 vs miracles but i normally side them out because im scared of the counterspell. but chalice for 1 against them is so good.

One of the main issues with that is that Elves, Delver, and Burn are already favorable match-ups where extra sideboard help isn't generally needed. The main reason to argue in favor of Chalice is if you think it swings the Miracles match-up. Siding out Crop Rotation against Miracles is not something I am a fan of considering crop into steppe (to counter STP) or Bog (to counter Snapcaster) or Wasteland/Ghost Quarter (to cut them off white if they are sloppy/have an awkward draw or leave a fetch as their last untapped land when they activate Top) are all options I like to keep available.

[jdmdave]

Crop rotation is the card that MAKES this deck. Never remove it.

[hymnyou]

One of the main issues with that is that Elves, Delver, and Burn are already favorable match-ups where extra sideboard help isn't generally needed. The main reason to argue in favor of Chalice is if you think it swings the Miracles match-up. Siding out Crop Rotation against Miracles is not something I am a fan of considering crop into steppe (to counter STP) or Bog (to counter Snapcaster) or Wasteland/Ghost Quarter (to cut them off white if they are sloppy/have an awkward draw or leave a fetch as their last untapped land when they activate Top) are all options I like to keep available.

This is correct.

@molaboy
IMO lotus petal is pretty weak against miracles so having null rods to side seems superior, also puts in work on storm (and various other decks) while keeping CR optional for bog or tabernacle (build dependent). Targeted discard is huge for the matchup information wise, chalice shuts that down.
You should not be concerned with Burn. Delver is build dependent. You should be flying over elves unless they can get ruric thar in time. Elves is not a concerning match for this deck, especially for the Maritocracy build that people have been calling Eva Green although it is not Eva Green, thats a different deck entirely (suicide black + goyfs).

[jdmdave]

I remove cards without text in the miracles matchup for those that do, namely -4 lotus petal -2 to 4 elvish spirit guide and -3 into the north

[AmokPL]

You should not be concerned with Burn.

what do you mean by that? do you mean that this is a poor man's choice deck and you shouldn't play against it often so dont bother? or do you mean you always have your token faster than they kill you? Because from my experience Burn ALWAYS gives you 3-4 turns and if you falter, you are dead. And it is a kind of deck I DO NOT WANT TO LOSE. Chalice solves it. So it does solve UR Delver. I don't care if it shuts my Crops and discard as long as the amount of cards they can actually play from their deck drops from 42 to 10-12. Well played Chalice cripples more decks like Reanimator, Lands, Storm and Miracles.

And Crops do get sided out against counters. It is not funny to lose 2 cards for a mere Daze or FoW.

[Whitefaces]

what do you mean by that? do you mean that this is a poor man's choice deck and you shouldn't play against it often so dont bother? or do you mean you always have your token faster than they kill you? Because from my experience Burn ALWAYS gives you 3-4 turns and if you falter, you are dead. And it is a kind of deck I DO NOT WANT TO LOSE. Chalice solves it. So it does solve UR Delver. I don't care if it shuts my Crops and discard as long as the amount of cards they can actually play from their deck drops from 42 to 10-12. Well played Chalice cripples more decks like Reanimator, Lands, Storm and Miracles.

And Crops do get sided out against counters. It is not funny to lose 2 cards for a mere Daze or FoW.

I'm sure he means your second point, this deck can kill much faster than they can kill you. Don't be reactive against them. Nobody wants to lose, especially vs burn, but it's not played anywhere near enough to be a justifiable reason to play Chalice.

If Crop gets Forced it's a 2-for-2, and don't play into Daze?

[ComplexPants]

I plan on playing in a GPT this weekend and I am going to give spheres a test run. Won't have coffers in time to try emrakul, so will be doing the Garruk, Crucible plan for the grind.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Chatto]

I haven't posted here in ages, so I'm not really up-to-date. So could someone explain to me what 'the Emrakul-plan' is?

[Djehuti]

what do you mean by that? do you mean that this is a poor man's choice deck and you shouldn't play against it often so dont bother? or do you mean you always have your token faster than they kill you? Because from my experience Burn ALWAYS gives you 3-4 turns and if you falter, you are dead. And it is a kind of deck I DO NOT WANT TO LOSE. Chalice solves it. So it does solve UR Delver. I don't care if it shuts my Crops and discard as long as the amount of cards they can actually play from their deck drops from 42 to 10-12. Well played Chalice cripples more decks like Reanimator, Lands, Storm and Miracles.

And Crops do get sided out against counters. It is not funny to lose 2 cards for a mere Daze or FoW.

After playing against burn on wednesday, I have to disagree with this. I tried chalices and regretted it. I opened hands where playing the chalice would have locked a discard spell and a tutor in my hand if I chose to cast it on turn 1, or the damage was already done by a goblin guide and eidolon by turn 2 before I would have had a chance to resolve it. If anything the card that stopped me from winning the matchup was ensnaring bridge since i didn't find the abrupt decay on time. I think Abrupt decays are the only thing that comes in. As for UR delver, reanimator and ANT, many times chalice is a gamble since you have to hope you turned off the right half of their deck (I can't tell you how many times I've chaliced on 1 against ANT only to have them go off using artifact mana and cabal rit...). However I do agree chalice cripples miracles so well sometimes that i could see an arguement for running CotV just for that reason.

@hymnyou I really like the null rod suggestion! Probably the most graceful hate card for ANT, D&T, and Miracles.

[DNSolver]

Chalice is meh against burn. I've had hands where it was good, but in general it's not as good as comboing quickly. Besides, Burn as well as Elves seems like they have tons of 1-drops, but it's deceiving:

Burn:
4 Price of Progress (deals tons of damage)
4 Fireblast
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Rift Bolt
3 Sulfuric Vortex
? Searing Blaze (if they have it, they will eventually get to cast it vs. us)

Out of the board:
Ensnaring Bridge (buys time to find Prices unless we Decay it)
Exquisite Firecraft (if they expect Chalice)
Smash to Smithereens (if they expect Chalice)

Also taking into account that we might not always be able to cast Chalice turn 1, and thus have to deal with a Swiftspear or Goblin Guide, it's not necessarily a great plan.

@Chatto: the Emrakul plan is something I've been proposing to sideboard in against Miracles. There are plans for both Emrakuls:

Emrakul, the Promised End: Search for and activate Eye of Ugin on 8 lands, cast the next turn easily thanks to Eye.
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn: more work needed - search for Eye of Ugin and Cabal Coffers. Search for it, activate Coffers with Urborg in play for enough mana to cast this guy.

The idea is to continuously search out and cast Emrakul once we get to the necessary mana. Neither Emrakul can be answered by Swords to Plowshares. Terminus only buys a turn or two because we can search it out again with Eye of Ugin. Jace bounce just results in recast. Council's Judgment is certainly a possible answer, but the cast trigger from Aeons Torn lets you deal 15 and kill 6 permanents on your extra turn before that happens, and Promised End only promises that your opponent's turns will be... suboptimal.

I've had limited testing because my friend who plays Miracles has been away for the past 2 months. I'm convinced that this plan could work. It takes up 2-3 slots in the sideboard, but it is a very real threat if you are bringing in Abrupt Decays to kill Counterbalances + Blood Moons, because then you will be able to resolve your land searches necessary to assemble the inevitability. I like this plan more than keeping fast mana and trying to force through a fast combo.

Edit: Null Rod is a suggestion I've been considering. Against Death and Taxes I don't like it very much, because Flickerwisp can let them equip Jitte / Sword or reset Batterskull. Against Miracles I'm trying to keep in land searches to assemble the Emrakul plan, and Null Rod turns off my Expedition Maps. Could side those out though. Against Storm it's worse than Chalice on the play, better on the draw, which I like. It also randomly hoses Belcher, so I'm a fan. :)

[Chatto]

Thanks for the clarification, seems like difficult set-up to pull off. Yet, if you manage to tie the strings together it surely be GG.

[hymnyou]

what do you mean by that? do you mean that this is a poor man's choice deck and you shouldn't play against it often so dont bother? or do you mean you always have your token faster than they kill you? Because from my experience Burn ALWAYS gives you 3-4 turns and if you falter, you are dead. And it is a kind of deck I DO NOT WANT TO LOSE. Chalice solves it. So it does solve UR Delver. I don't care if it shuts my Crops and discard as long as the amount of cards they can actually play from their deck drops from 42 to 10-12. Well played Chalice cripples more decks like Reanimator, Lands, Storm and Miracles.

And Crops do get sided out against counters. It is not funny to lose 2 cards for a mere Daze or FoW.

I think you are playing the deck incorrectly if you're fearing Burn enough that it is sculpting your SB, especially in consideration of all the decks that are actual true tough matches. Chalice puts in some work against those decks but cuts off a lot of your problem solver cards, so you're crippling them nearly as much as yourself. Fundamental graveyard hate which is mandatory in Legacy puts in heavy work against those decks, especially with targeted (1 mana costed) discard- also the information is vital for those matches. You should have other tools already for those matches as well.

[apple713]

It sounds like people are having trouble knowing when to play chalice of the void. Its a very situational card that apparently is causing trouble for a lot of players. Chalice of the void is not always the first thing you try to play in all of your matches. It depends on many factors, such as cards in your hand, what deck your opponent is playing, your estimation of when the game will end, and how you expect your next few turns to play out. I don't really have time to explain all the situations for each deck but just be open to the idea that if you don't like chalice you may be playing it wrong.

[hymnyou]

Recently won the Atlanta Monthly event with similar list, thinking giving this a go for the GP.

Main Deck:

3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow Covered Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
3 Thespian Stage
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Lotus Petal
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Crop Rotation
1 into then north
1 Exploration map
3 Pithing Needle
2 Not of this world
2 Sylvan library

Sideboard:

2 Null rod
1 Sphere of Resistance
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Drop of Honey
2 Massacre
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Karakas
1 Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale

[Djehuti]

Recently won the Atlanta Monthly event with similar list, thinking giving this a go for the GP.

Main Deck:

3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow Covered Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
3 Thespian Stage
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Lotus Petal
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Crop Rotation
1 into then north
1 Exploration map
3 Pithing Needle
2 Not of this world
2 Sylvan library

Sideboard:

2 Null rod
1 Sphere of Resistance
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Drop of Honey
2 Massacre
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Karakas
1 Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale

Congrats! That drop of honey is spicy, what do you side it in against?

[DNSolver]

3 Thespian's Stage? Cut one for 4th Urborg?

[ComplexPants]

Top 8'd a GPT today. Went 4-1-1 in the swiss and lost in the quarters.

Match 1 - Grixis Control 2-0
Not much here. Games never went past turn 4. Only potential road block was spell snares and strix, discard got through them.

Match 2 - Burn 2-0
I was faster both games. Turn 3 and then turn 2.

Match 3 - Miracles 0-2
This was a very good miracles player, who actually says he knows DNSolver on MTGO and was familiar with the deck.
Game 1: We both developed as normal, he got counter balance down. I make merit, he fires off STP, I NoTW, he forces. He lands a Jace, I try to go off again, STP. Jace eventually ultimates.
Game 2: Game 2 I slow play him, but he keeps doing draw spells and has a full hand. I take a gamble and make merit, he fires STP. Eventually counter-top gets online, and then he surgicals dark depths. I go on the beats plan with ESG, he lands Jace and eventually ultimates him.

Match 4 - 4 color Delver 2-1
I took games 1 and 3 in a pretty straightforward manner. I lost game 2 due to fire // ice tapping merit and then losing on tempo.

Match 5 - Show and Tell 2-1
Game 1: I am on the play and he keeps a powerful turn 1 gris hand. I thoughtseize out Show and Tell and then his game just falls apart. Turn 3 merit takes it.
Game 2: He plays sneak attack on turn 3, passes. I get combo pieces in play. His turn he sneak attacks gris into play, I make merit, he then sneaks Ashen Rider into play, onto game 3.
Game 3: I actually forget how this game started, but I get pieces in place for turn 3 combo, pass. He show and tells for emrakul, I make merit. Then ESG to sylvan scry for Karakas. He scoops. He was really salty, wouldn't even shake my hand.

Match 6 - ID into top 8

Quarterfinals - BUG Delver 1-2
Game 1: He doesn't really know what is going on with my deck. Eventually we both get into top deck mode, I have Urborg and Stage in play and top deck Depths. That is game.
Game 2: I am ready to do a turn 3 combo. At the end of his turn I make Merit and I get Diabolic Edict'ed. On to game 3.
Game 3: I think I am setting things up nicely, I have a turn 3 combo ready, but I get thoughtseize'd, lose my Hexmage. Then I get hymn'd and he gets my sylvan scrying and depths followed by surgical on my depths. Basically that was it, outside of him performing a game lose violation. He was a super nice guy and hope to bump into him again.


Seems like surgical is becoming more of a sideboard card these days and it hosed me twice. I played 4 spheres in the board and I didn't really like them. I think Chalice might be better just for miracles and storm decks. That being said, I am coming around to the emrakul plan. Having plan B out of the board I think is right.

I played my list from EW with the following changes: -1 NoTW, +1 Toxic Deluge.
SB: -4 Chalice, -1 Krosan, -1 Winter Orb, +4 Sphere, +1 Garruk, +1 NoTW

[hymnyou]

3 Thespian's Stage? Cut one for 4th Urborg?

Thespian stage is pretty clunky, I find a lot more ease casting hexmage with 4 in the deck at a fast pace, the tutors tend to find me what I need land wise, where the urborg usually is what helps me cast the hexmage on time. With two libraries the probability of finding combo pieces goes up, if I had no libraries I would prob play 4. Outside of obvious combo use I like Stage for baiting opponents needles, psyching out wastelands, getting a karakas to stop midrange beaters, get a basic etc-stage has many tricks. ESG and petal are one shots, where urborg stabilizes the mana base, especially when rebuilding after activation. With Karakas and Tabernacle in, there are 11 non-BG producing lands, 5 non-mana producing lands.


Congrats! That drop of honey is spicy, what do you side it in against?

There are a lot of strong mid-rangeish players in my meta, lots of weapons and removal. I would not play at the GP though, deluge is just better- but helps my tempo locally. It helps to slow down DRS/Delver, DNT, Alluren, Food Chain, Eldrazi, Infect. It knocks out Progenitus and Emrakul on a show and tell, makes it tougher for elves but that match isnt too concerning. Deluge can be just too slow, and the life loss sure is not helpful. It's a one mana mini abyss that stands strong with Marit Lage, and I like old cards.


Top 8'd a GPT today. Went 4-1-1 in the swiss and lost in the quarters.


Seems like surgical is becoming more of a sideboard card these days and it hosed me twice.

I agree on more surgical, with reanimator archetype rising again I think the card should be expected in higher numbers for the GP. I'm running 5 pieces of graveyard hate with consideration that I will have to extract(and fail to find)/Macabre my own depths. I like Faerie Macabre lately because it gets around Chancellor turn 1's, can't get duress'ed by storm and can't be countered by miracles when trying to hose snapcaster.

[Claymore]

Played this list in a small GPT, went 1-2 with a "no show" bye round 1 (two players were running late and given round 1 losses.

3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bind
4 Crop Rotation
3 Duress
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Expedition Map
2 Into the North
4 Lotus Petal
2 Not of This World
4 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vampire Hexmage

Sideboard:

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Karakas
2 Lost Legacy
1 Massacre
1 Not of This World
3 Surgical Extraction
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Toxic Deluge

R1: No-show bye
R2: DnT 1-2. Game 1 my deck kinda shit itself and didn't give me a lot of stuff to work with. Mull to 6 with some interaction but think I only saw a Thespian's Stage. He has an aggro start and kills me within 5 turns. Board in Tabernacle, Decays, Karakas, NotW, Deluge, Massacre, board out Duresses, Sylvan Scrying, and maybe Library. Game 2, get an early Tabernacle which slows his development severely. He plays Flickerwisp to reset a Needle on Wasteland (Stage), and next turn leaves 1 mana open to equip and swing with SoFI. I EOT crop rotate into the combo and have NotW to protect against Swords.
Game 3 was long affair, with him keeping a lot of interaction. Think my hand was Petal, Guide, Thoughtseize, Into, Crop, Verdant, Decay? I thoughtseize my T1 to a hand of Disenchant, Thalia, Council's Judgement, Plains, Karakas, Flickerwisp. Take the Thalia since I wasn't near comboing and didn't have a lot of lands. He gets several Ports down and taps down my Stage each upkeep. I end up with a board of 2 lands, Thespian Stage, Depths after burning a crop-ghost quarter on Karakas (sacrificing Tab when he had no creatures in play). Duress reveals a Path, Disenchant, Council's Judgement, so take the Path. Burn an Abrupt Decay on a StoneForge with a SoFI to give me more time. Play out a Needle on Port which gets Disenchanted, then another Needle which sticks. I'm 1 turn away from comboing and he top decks Magus of the Moon. I don't find removal and die shortly to beats, with a hand of 2 Depths and 2 Spirit Guide.

R3: MoggCatcher Stompy. Game 1 I have a turn 3 Depths with Urborg, Stage, Rotation, Verdant, 2x Needle hand. Play a blind Needle on Wasteland. He plays turn 1 Moggcatcher. Respond with Needle on Moggcatcher. I have Urborg, Stage, Forest (Crop Rot) in play and he plays and equips Jitte to a swing. I don't block and make Marit Lage EOT. Swing him to 4. He untaps and plays his singleton Stingscourger. I draw blank the rest of the short game. I'm not sure if he played Jitte at a point where I could have Needled.
In: 3 Decays, 2 Lost Legacy, Toxic Deluge, Karakas? Out: Sylvan Scrying x4, Bojuka, NotW x2 maybe.
Game 2, mull to 5 with first hand of 5 lands, petal, Hexmage, then 6 is a no lander. I think I keep Petal, Guide, Swamp, Hexmage, X. He has turn 1 Magus, I play out turn 1 Hexmage to block. He plays Revoker on Hexmage, and next turn another Magus. I play Lost Legacy on Blood Moon to extract all 4 from his deck, seeing a hand of Recruiter, Jitte, Mogg. Play my needle on Moggcatcher. He plays Pia/Kira to kill my Hexmage and slow-plays the win, letting me board wipe with top deck Toxic Deluge. He top decks his third and last Magus and wins from there.

R4: BR Chancellor Reanimator. My deck wakes up and gives me turn 2 Marit Lage with Urborg, Depths, Hexmage hand. He gets a turn 2 Griselbrand to block but I eventually get there. Game 2 I play Catacombs, keeping up Crop Rotation-Bog instead of playing a blank Urborg. He plays turn 1 Stronghold Gambit, so I put in Hexmage and crop rotate into Depths for the win. We play a few more practice games, including one where I can't answer Blood Moon, and another where I play Chalice on 0 to burn the Chancellor trigger, then Duress and Needle on Griselbrand. I did manage Lost Legacy on Griselbrand which drew him 2 cards, but I end up being able to Surgical on his reanimation target (Iona) and win from there. Think ended up 4-1 overall in our games.

So yeah, fuck Magus of the Moon. It certainly feels like the deck could use more creature kill, either Deluges or 4 Decays. I was thinking Collective Brutality may be very good to take out removal as well as problematic creatures. I'm also curious if we need to just constantly board in Surgical and keep in all Discard to exterminate all of their answers. Pick the Brain could possibly be an additional 'discard and exile' option. I did like the Tabernacle as a tax, but it could have been better as a Deluge (which would have been 3 wipes in the board). I have it as an additional option against Empty the Warrens and Delver decks to delay them, but I haven't had enough tests with it in this deck to see how useful it is in that regard.

I didn't draw Bind all day except in one no-land mulligan against DnT, and against Reanimator where it was discarded to protect Griselbrand.

I think a 3-4 Stage-Urborg split could be good. You only really need Stage past turn 4, unless you have Urborg, and Urborg gives you more plays: Discard, Hexmage, and the turn 2 Lage with Hexmage. A Stage is pretty useless by itself.

A Winter Orb might be good in here, or the likes of Mana Web (which plays hilariously well with Urborg).

I may also be trying too hard to bring control elements to a blazing combo deck...but the deck just doesn't feel fast enough to avoid countermeasures. It either bursts out turn 2 Marit or has to bob and weave for an opening after a few turns.

[ComplexPants]

Mana web is very interesting. If you match that with tabernacle and urborg, it could be super gross. Give them the option of creatures or spells lol.

Not sure it is game breaking, but it certainly makes it hard to interact with us. Against miracles, I think it is particularly good since 3 cmc is a sweet spot to sneak in under counter-top.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[apple713]

Mana web is very interesting. If you match that with tabernacle and urborg, it could be super gross. Give them the option of creatures or spells lol.

Not sure it is game breaking, but it certainly makes it hard to interact with us. Against miracles, I think it is particularly good since 3 cmc is a sweet spot to sneak in under counter-top.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thats interesting because it would make terminus very difficuly to set up and cast. Against a deck like d&t it would effectively turn off karakas and port, any equipment they have. i would be interested to know how this plays out if you do any testing with it.

[jdmdave]

Won a local win a dual (badlands) tournament. List is unchanged from my GP list, except sideboard has slight alterations. I didn't actually lose A GAME until the finals :). Deck was running super hot and has a lot of play to it.

Maindeck

* 12 Combo Lands
* 2 Snow
* 1 GQ, 1 Steppe, 1 Bog
* 1 Bayou
* 2 Verdant
* 3 Marsh
* 2 Not
* 3 Needle
* 4 Rotate
* 4 Sylvan Scrying
* 1 Library
* 3 Into
* 4 Duress
* 4 Tseize
* 4 Petal
* 4 ESG
* 4 Hexmage

Sideboard

* 3 Surgical (same)
* 4 Sphere (same)
* 2 abrupt decay (-1)
* 1 Karakas (same)
* 1 Not of this world (same)
* 1 Pithing Needle (same)
* 1 Emrakul
* 1 Eye of Ugin
* 1 Cabal Coffers

Round 1 - (2-0) Eldrazi. Turn 2 Marit Lage is mean.dec

Round 2 - (2-0) Titanpost. Turn 2 Marit Lage Game 1. Turn 2 Blow up your metalworker, turn 3 EOT crop rotation into marit lage. gg

Round 3 - (2-0) Mono Red Blood Moon Sneak Attack. Turn ONE marit lage on the play with a nutso hand (bayou, petal, hexmage, esg, crop rotate, go). Game 2 he mulls to 6, get a turn 1 sneak attack, but doesn't draw anything. Key sequence was turn 3 where he tried to blood moon me, but I tapped my bayou for green, ghost quartered it for a swamp, then abrupt decayed the moon before dropping hexmage depths (drew the depths).

Round 4 - (2-0) Eldrazi. Turn 2 Marit lage is mean.dec

Round 5 - Draw vs. Grixis Delver

Round 6 - Draw vs. Miracles

Quarterfinals - (2-0) Eldrazi. Turn 2 Marit Lage game 1. Game 2 he drops chalice on 1 AND 2, but I eventually the missing land combo piece on turn 4 and get there

Semifinals - (2-0) Grixis Delver. Turn 3 Marit Lage game 1 after Tseizing/duressing opponent 3 times. Game 2 is a long grinder as he has a wasteland heavy draw w/ countermagic, but I eventually "get him" with hidden ESG mana. TLDR I GQ his wasteland, he wastelands my dark depths, I crop rotate my dark depths for a thespians stage, he wastelands my thespians stage, I crop rotate for depths, then activate with ESG mana ftw.

Finals - (2-1) Miracles. Game 1 I jam a turn 3 Marit lage w/ Not of this world backup vs a non-top hand. Game 2 he blood moons me on turn 3, then kills me in 3 turns with mentor. Game 3 is a super long drawn out affair where I abrupt decay his blood moons, get my dark depths surgicalled after going for it once, but then eventually loop emrakul behind eye of ugin + cabal coffers + urborg + 2 thespians stage copying cabal coffers.

Final thoughts

* Still iffy on the Emrakul plan, mainly due to how many slots if takes. Maybe try out Emrakul 2.0 with Ugin. Between Petals/Fetches/Sorceries/Instants, It's not THAT farfetched to cast her for around 7ish. Single mindslaver should be more than sufficient to strip their hand of STPs/shuffle away tops+terminus. Then again, Nephalia drownyard basically achieves the same thing for only one slot.
* Into the North has been working out better for me than Map
* Nothing leads to more salt than crop rotation into Sejiri Steppe

[Claymore]

I liked Into the North more than Map as well, accelerating into either a basic or Depths itself.

It seems Urborg is critical for getting the obscenely early Marits so going to 4 might be right. With 12 combo lands, that would put the typical Fetch-Dual mana base to:

* 2 Bayou
* 4 Verdant

This does feel critically low to me though...

A high discard count (8) also seems more correct than the extra land tutors (Map, Into). With how often I side out Sylvan Scrying I almost want to cut it...

Going below 3 Abrupt Decays seems pretty risky to me though.

[Motto82]

Played a Legacy Invitational in which the 18 best players of my region were competing to win the prestigious title.

I am sorry to report I lost my win and in to Shardless BUG. My other loss was also against Shardless BUG. :(
In my first loss my hands just never came together. In my win and in I played around Wasteland in the 1st game and he Lilianed me. Then in the second game I played around Liliana and he Wastelanded me, sad times even moreso considering he only played 1 Wasteland, he told me after the match.
Previously I had been crushing this matchup and losing two times felt bad.
My wins were versus Miracles, BR Reanimator (had a very entertaining game 3 in which I surgicalled Iona and Tidespout - he was able to return Chancellor three times to block before dying) and Eldrazi aggro.

I have also strongly considered going up to 4 Urborg, ToY. I feel like I am missing them too frequently and will see if I can make room for it.
With BUG being so present in my meta I will also start testing postboard Dryad Arbor to avoid being Lili'd out of the game.

[MBSegal]

Played a Legacy Invitational in which the 18 best players of my region were competing to win the prestigious title.

I am sorry to report I lost my win and in to Shardless BUG. My other loss was also against Shardless BUG. :(
In my first loss my hands just never came together. In my win and in I played around Wasteland in the 1st game and he Lilianed me. Then in the second game I played around Liliana and he Wastelanded me, sad times even moreso considering he only played 1 Wasteland, he told me after the match.
Previously I had been crushing this matchup and losing two times felt bad.
My wins were versus Miracles, BR Reanimator (had a very entertaining game 3 in which I surgicalled Iona and Tidespout - he was able to return Chancellor three times to block before dying) and Eldrazi aggro.

I have also strongly considered going up to 4 Urborg, ToY. I feel like I am missing them too frequently and will see if I can make room for it.
With BUG being so present in my meta I will also start testing postboard Dryad Arbor to avoid being Lili'd out of the game.

I think Shardless (or any deck with Lili/Hymn/Waste) are kind of rough match ups if the two players are equally skilled and knowledgeable. I think Dryad Arbor is not a horrible idea, but I went a step further and have played a Deathrite Shaman / Tireless Tracker package. I think it hedges well at letting you recoup from Hymn and offering some protection from Liliana. I am much more scared of a deck with Liliana in it than I am one with Swords to Plowshares.

[apple713]

I think Shardless (or any deck with Lili/Hymn/Waste) are kind of rough match ups if the two players are equally skilled and knowledgeable. I think Dryad Arbor is not a horrible idea, but I went a step further and have played a Deathrite Shaman / Tireless Tracker package. I think it hedges well at letting you recoup from Hymn and offering some protection from Liliana. I am much more scared of a deck with Liliana in it than I am one with Swords to Plowshares.

I think it's been said already, likely by me but shardless is one of the easier matchups we have. Generally, unless they get nut draws you'll crush them. Nut draws happen when playing against any deck and its not something you should worry about or modify your deck for. Sometimes you just get that unlucky. It's the reason no match is 100%-0%. In my experiences 80-90% win rate vs a deck is about as high as you get. Even miracles can steal some games against its worst matchup (12 post).


I liked Into the North more than Map as well, accelerating into either a basic or Depths itself.


map is mainly for decks with low colored land counts or decks worried about being able to acquire colored mana after blood moon. (this should be in the primer)

[MBSegal]

I think it's been said already, likely by me but shardless is one of the easier matchups we have. Generally, unless they get nut draws you'll crush them. Nut draws happen when playing against any deck and its not something you should worry about or modify your deck for. Sometimes you just get that unlucky. It's the reason no match is 100%-0%. In my experiences 80-90% win rate vs a deck is about as high as you get. Even miracles can steal some games against its worst matchup (12 post).

It has also been said multiple times by me (and from others anecdotally) that they lose to Shardless more than they do other fair decks. I think they do not need a nut draw to beat us, just a strong opening. I have played this deck in 4 tournaments that were at least 6 rounds and a number of MTGO leagues and have gone about even with Shardless/Jund/DeadguyAle-ish (6-3). The only decks I have performed worse against are Blood Moon Stompy (0-2 at GP Chiba) and Storm (1-2 overall). I am not saying they are favored, but I wouldn't put it in the column of 65%+ and as such I want to have sideboard cards to improve that match up. If you disagree, that's fine. Just because you announce a match up is 80%, I don't believe it lol

[Negator77']

Played a Legacy Invitational in which the 18 best players of my region were competing to win the prestigious title.

I am sorry to report I lost my win and in to Shardless BUG. My other loss was also against Shardless BUG. :(
In my first loss my hands just never came together. In my win and in I played around Wasteland in the 1st game and he Lilianed me. Then in the second game I played around Liliana and he Wastelanded me, sad times even moreso considering he only played 1 Wasteland, he told me after the match.
Previously I had been crushing this matchup and losing two times felt bad.

Imo, the best way to approach the match-up is to usually not play around Wasteland unless you have full or close to full information (via discard) and that is the right call. They generally aren't fast enough to just be able to kill you while sitting behind a Wasteland. You will usually have the time to beat a Wasteland if they have it. If you play around Wasteland and get your token killed by a walker in the process, that is much harder to come back from. If they ever tap below where their planeswalkers can be cast that turn (for an agent, goyf, whatever), then of course go off in response. Many versions don't even run the full set of Wastelands, varying from list to list with three being a number I've seen frequently. In this case, you changed your approach between games and were punished both times.. That is just bad luck, especially considering he only ran one copy of Wasteland.


It has also been said multiple times by me (and from others anecdotally) that they lose to Shardless more than they do other fair decks. I think they do not need a nut draw to beat us, just a strong opening. I have played this deck in 4 tournaments that were at least 6 rounds and a number of MTGO leagues and have gone about even with Shardless/Jund/DeadguyAle-ish (6-3). The only decks I have performed worse against are Blood Moon Stompy (0-2 at GP Chiba) and Storm (1-2 overall). I am not saying they are favored, but I wouldn't put it in the column of 65%+ and as such I want to have sideboard cards to improve that match up. If you disagree, that's fine. Just because you announce a match up is 80%, I don't believe it lol

Is that a typo, because 6-3 seems decent? That's a pretty small sample size to truly evaluate a match-up.

[jdmdave]

First, after losing to shardless in the final round of a 4-1 league run, I'm not so sure its the easiest matchup in the world.

Situation

It's your turn 3 on the draw and you have thespian+urborg+depths out. You duressed your opponent on turn 1 and know between land drops/plays that they have 2 lands, 1 abrupt decay, and 1 tarmogoyf in hand. You have nothing relevant in hand.

Do You:

* Play around Liliana/Jace and wait until their EOT to go off
* Jam it and play around wasteland

I did the former and got rekt by a wasteland, but I've also done the later and also lost. He ripped a shardless into ancestral into wasteland.

Second, have we nailed down a definitive anti-UR/Grixis/4C delver plan?

[DNSolver]

Once he casts Shardless agent on turn 3-4 or whatever, he can no longer cast a planeswalker. Then you combo in response to the ancestral recall and beat Wasteland.

[Negator77']

First, after losing to shardless in the final round of a 4-1 league run, I'm not so sure its the easiest matchup in the world.

Situation

It's your turn 3 on the draw and you have thespian+urborg+depths out. You duressed your opponent on turn 1 and know between land drops/plays that they have 2 lands, 1 abrupt decay, and 1 tarmogoyf in hand. You have nothing relevant in hand.

Do You:

* Play around Liliana/Jace and wait until their EOT to go off
* Jam it and play around wasteland

I did the former and got rekt by a wasteland, but I've also done the later and also lost. He ripped a shardless into ancestral into wasteland.



In the example where he ripped Shardless into ancestral into Wasteland, making the token with the ancestral on the stack is usually a good play.... unless your opponent had six available mana that turn to play both the Shardless Agent and a Liliana after that (unlikely unless they already broke up your combo once).

In the first scenario, my two cents is to wait in that spot. They have a similar # of walkers and wastelands depending on the list, but recovering from the walker is a steeper climb. If they have wasteland there, they cant activate it while you have the combo up... That leaves you outs of drawing Waste/Ghost Quarter or crop rotation (etc) to win and also pseudo ports them every turn in the interim since they can never tap the wasteland of they likely lose on the spot barring other interaction. You are also live to just drawing the combo again if you have to eventually let them 2 for 1 you. Basically, the worst case scenario if you walk into the walker (need full combo #2) also works even if you wait. Waiting also gives you the option of EOT copying their wasteland with stage to see it they want to use it. If they don't, you are live to draw another stage or way to find a stage. If they do, you are live to draw or find whatever land they hit. So you are left with more options/outs by waiting is my position.... ya know, on top of just winning the game outright if they have a walker or neither.

[jdmdave]

Yeah, just realized that. Shouldn't play magic when sleep deprived. What is the wasteland/PW split in typical shardless lists? 4/3?

I have a major cash tourney coming up and will report back. What are your guys preferred post-board plans vs the various delver variants?

[DNSolver]

I'm planning on spending some of the time I have off from school making a few Youtube videos of Depths gameplay, perhaps a little live streaming. I will post links sometime later this week once I have quiet time to record, but they will be on my Youtube channel under my same username. Right now there's just Starcraft content from several years ago...

Anyway, I hope people are excited for this.

Regarding post-board vs. Delver:

-1 Bog
-3 Not of This World
-1 Duress?

+4 Abrupt Decay
+1 Pithing Needle

Needles name Wasteland always. Even the 2nd Needle - plenty of weird Abrupt Decays flying around in Delver decks right now. Discard spells take creatures to buy time (usually if only 1 creature), take counterspells / Stifles if our hand isn't redundant, and otherwise take random bolts.

[Negator77']

Yeah, just realized that. Shouldn't play magic when sleep deprived. What is the wasteland/PW split in typical shardless lists? 4/3?

I have a major cash tourney coming up and will report back. What are your guys preferred post-board plans vs the various delver variants?

I keep the boarding vs Delver to a minimum. From your list, the only cards I'd bring in are the 4th Needle and the two Abrupt Decays to fight any Needles, move a flier out of the way, or blunt their clock. NOTW can most likely be shaved since the the black delver decks have been straying away from bounce and towards Diabolic Edict.

UR delver is different since they are often sans Wasteland. Shave Needles in that scenario instead since they are more likely to have bounce and/or Blood Moon

3/3 is probably the most common split. I've seen 4 Wastes plenty of times, but have seen 4 walkers plenty too. I'd expect three wastes, 2 Lily, 1 Jace on average.

[jdmdave]

Good to hear on the video content.

Regarding delver, I think I'm going to play with my GP Chiba sideboard rather than the emrakul plan, although I'm kind of lukewarm on crucible and toxic deluge these days. The former can't be tutored for and the latter is kind of win more in +matchups.

* UR - No wastelands, so we just need to play around submerge since they are a linear burn deck.
* Grixis - Wastelands. Need Needles
* 4c- Watelands. Need Needles

I don't think you need the not of this worlds since you can (a) discard the submerge & (b) not fetch forests.

Here are my consolidated match results from GP Chiba + last 3 Legacy tourneys

* Turbo Blood Moon decks (1-2) <- fuck turn 1 blood moon
* Eldrazi (6-1) <- Double Mimic + TKS + Smasher
* Miracles (3-0)
* DNT (1-1)
* Omnitell (1-0)
* Sneak and Show (2-0)
* Grixis/4c Delver (4-2) <- Wasteland heavy tempo draws
* UR Delver (1-0)
* Burn (2-1) <- Lost to a pro in final rounds of GP Chiba who drew an insane price/fireblast/bolt/bolt/bolt type hand
* Merfolk (2-0)
* Shardless (1-2) <- Gambled on the wrong end of the wasteland vs liliana mini-game
* Reanimator (1-0)
* Cloudpost (2-0)
* Painter (0-1) <- fuck turn 1 blood moon

[hymnyou]

Running 2 Libraries, I feel like I have less of a problem with Shardless and Miracles than what I read in here. Miracles fears Library on board, a lot- they lose control. You just run over Shardless with library out. 2 Library has been good for me- even if you get the rare occurance of having 2 in play, stacking the triggers works well in this deck with shuffle effects, and you can always dig a little deeper with life loss stacking two library triggers. The Maritocracy build really benefits from Library since it has a cannonball effect to it, I have even played 3 in my deck and haven't been mad at it. Library usually gets countered, destroyed or discarded so having a extra can be essential for this deck. Lots of decks see this as enemy #1. No brainstorm, no top, no bob and dumping your hands is risky with only one Library in your deck when facing resilient decks.

[ComplexPants]

Looking forward to the videos DNSolver. I am going to be testing some Mana Web Emrakul boards to see what happens. I feel really in impressed by Sphere. I have actually yet to side it in and have any effect. Still haven't played against ANT or Reanimator yet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jdmdave]

Sphere is a beating vs reanimator, storm, and shardless and really helps the miracles matchup. Wouldn't ever cut it.

[Lio]

I keep the boarding vs Delver to a minimum. From your list, the only cards I'd bring in are the 4th Needle and the two Abrupt Decays to fight any Needles, move a flier out of the way, or blunt their clock. NOTW can most likely be shaved since the the black delver decks have been straying away from bounce and towards Diabolic Edict.

UR delver is different since they are often sans Wasteland. Shave Needles in that scenario instead since they are more likely to have bounce and/or Blood Moon

3/3 is probably the most common split. I've seen 4 Wastes plenty of times, but have seen 4 walkers plenty too. I'd expect three wastes, 2 Lily, 1 Jace on average.

Don't you board in Sphere of Resistence rather than (or in addition to) Abrupt Decay vs Delvers (especially UR)?

[jdmdave]

I board in sphere + decay vs UR, but don't bring it in vs any of the wasteland delver decks.

[DNSolver]

Finished recording today. Quality is probably unimpressive, but I did commentary over 5 matches and a deck tech.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDmvVDXPOHo&list=PL89Xvn6ryd0xlkMat404yzPPlE5fthNek

[apple713]

Finished recording today. Quality is probably unimpressive, but I did commentary over 5 matches and a deck tech.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDmvVDXPOHo&list=PL89Xvn6ryd0xlkMat404yzPPlE5fthNek

Great stuff. I added it to the primer.


Also, if people want stuff added to primer or have suggestions for it please let me know.

[ComplexPants]

Great. Now everyone will know our secrets....

Great job DNSolver. Thanks for doing it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Motto82]

As for the tips regarding the BUG Shardless matchup. I have mulled over all the responses and I'll try and ignore the Wastelands mostly for now (when I am short of a Needle), as Liliana is indeed more backbreaking. In my case, I responded to Brainstorm to make a token and he then found Lili as his 3rd card. I had to pull the trigger by casting Crop Rotation and then got wrecked :P I knew at that point he had FoW + Brainstorm as his other blue card so when he brainstormed, I pulled the trigger to reliably resolve the C.R.
Anyway - I am learning a lot here as to how to play the deck and therefore really hyped reading DNSolver has just posted the link to his recordings.


Finished recording today. Quality is probably unimpressive, but I did commentary over 5 matches and a deck tech.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDmvVDXPOHo&list=PL89Xvn6ryd0xlkMat404yzPPlE5fthNek

I'll be watching it tonight after I return from my son's Lantern Parade. Do you intend to make more of these?

[apple713]

Against decks with wasteland i always hold my crop rotations to use for when they activate wasteland. I realize while it seemed intuitive to me, not everyone might play that way. It slows down the deck but not really because you dont have to worry about wasteland anymore. Effectively it adds 1 green mana to the cost of the combo.

[Claymore]

If they activate properly, it will still set you down 3 cards (Stage/Hexmage, Depths, Crop). Wasteland targeting Depths as the Marit Lage trigger is resolving and you're back to square negative 1.

-> After re-reading, I think you're just talking about using Crop Rotation in general...so that's a good idea, to just preemptively hold Crops until they fire off a Wasteland randomly.

It's probably still better to play around Liliana/Jace instead of Wasteland, since it does set them down 1 mana and it's easier to break a stalemate with Ghost Quarter/Needle rather than spend however many turns/resources getting your pieces back on board.

Against a blind opponent, on the play, and you have a possible turn 2 or 3 Lage, with only Needle as your interaction, do you play the Needle on Wasteland or just hold it for later?

Also looking forward to the videos.

[Motto82]

Enjoyed watching the video's. Good result and good showing of what the deck is capable of. I'm not sure if the Burn player saw that turn 2 play coming. Very entertaining and educational as well. Some matches stood out for me in terms of interaction, such as the Death and Taxes match.

[Claymore]

Round 3 against Dark Mav, pretty interesting that you mulled:

AD
Thesian's Stage
Thoughtseize
Urborg
AD
Spirit Guide
Swamp

One combo piece, discard, removal. You said that you mulled it because it has no combo pieces but it had a Stage.

Round 5 against Burn with the Thespian x2, Crop, Elf x2, Vamp, Thoughtseize was def a sneaky turn 3 win hand. I would've fallen into the trap of crop rotate into Urborg to cast the discard and then Hexmage.

[jdmdave]

I found that round 3 mull somewhat questionable, but everything else was on point. Well played.

What are everyone's current thoughts on into the north vs. expedition map? The former has enabled so many turn 2 wins for me, but I can see the merits of the latter on non-G manasource hands

[DNSolver]

I acknowledge that the R3G1 7-card hand was probably a keep.

Recorded another league, just going to post a link to my twitch because then I don't need to re-upload it to Youtube or anything. You might need to suffer through some in-between match time.

https://www.twitch.tv/dnsolver/videos/all

Edit: Twitch made it very easy for me to upload my whole league to Youtube, so I will be doing this in the future. Time markings for each round are in the description of the video.

[jdmdave]

I've gone 4-1 twice over the last week. Hope I don't run into you.

[Motto82]

New vid is completely savage. Hopefully you will run into some Shardless BUG or Sneak and Show next time - these are matchups I'd like to see .

[sigmanugary]

I acknowledge that the R3G1 7-card hand was probably a keep.

Recorded another league, just going to post a link to my twitch because then I don't need to re-upload it to Youtube or anything. You might need to suffer through some in-between match time.

https://www.twitch.tv/dnsolver/videos/all

Edit: Twitch made it very easy for me to upload my whole league to Youtube, so I will be doing this in the future. Time markings for each round are in the description of the video.

DNSolver, I just checked out your stream, really nice list. I just subscribed as I read/watch more Legacy than I have time to play. Keep up the good work.

[ComplexPants]

Happy holidays guys!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[NEELEY]

I was bored last night so I bought the rest of this deck on mtgo. It was a ton of fun and I was smiling ear to ear making 20/20's. I played 5 matches and was done in a little over an hour :). Went 5-0 in the league, no special list just the same 75 that won NA Legacy Champs.

[ComplexPants]

I was bored last night so I bought the rest of this deck on mtgo. It was a ton of fun and I was smiling ear to ear making 20/20's. I played 5 matches and was done in a little over an hour :). Went 5-0 in the league, no special list just the same 75 that won NA Legacy Champs.

Congrats! I had been getting sad seeing the turbo depths numbers drop on MTGGoldfish. Glad to see they are going up.

For the life of me I cannot 5-0 a league.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Negator77']

Congrats! I had been getting sad seeing the turbo depths numbers drop on MTGGoldfish. Glad to see they are going up.

For the life of me I cannot 5-0 a league.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You will get there. MTGO legacy leagues can be pretty tough at times and variance is always a thing. I finished my first league in a while (been mainly playing in the community league and dabbling in vintage with Depths of course recently) and went 5-0, so add that should also be added to the goldfish count sometime in the next couple of days. One of my matches against BR Reanimator was streamed with our own DNSolver making a guest appearance on the opponents stream here: https://www.twitch.tv/originaloestrus/v/109271504 The match starts at about the 48:50 mark.

[jdmdave]

I think its time we have a "how many 5-0s can you do in a month" challenge. I'm getting super close.

Last 6 leagues

4-1
4-1
4-1
3-2
4-1
3-2

Fuck random blood moon decks

[Negator77']

I think its time we have a "how many 5-0s can you do in a month" challenge. I'm getting super close.

Last 6 leagues

4-1
4-1
4-1
3-2
4-1
3-2

Fuck random blood moon decks

I don't play in enough leagues anymore to take you up on that challenge, but opening tonight's treasure chests on a whim could inspire more league play. I luck sacked into two masterpieces including the gorgeous Aether Vial, Leovold Emissary of Trest, Recruiter of the Guard, 2 extra packs, and some other decent stuff.

[jdmdave]

Heh. I need to start grinding the league more as I've rapidly blown through about 900 playpoints on the cube.
I need to stop forcing storm in the vintage cube even through it's so fun (and terrible).

I'm starting to think that the deck would be better served with a 2-2 Into/Map split over 3 Into or Map/1 library. While library is useful for drawing a critical mass of disruption to punch through the combo, a stronger emphasis on secondary land tutors helps push the decks linearity. I will test this out at China's largest legacy event in two weeks time.

[Claymore]

I tend to agree, Library feels a little out of place. It may be better in the side, and replace the main slot with Map or other tutor.

I think the deck would be best to operate like Dredge, try for an uninteractive game 1 then bring in countermeasures. I don't think our game 1 percentage is that high, but could be a mindset with this Turbo version.

[jdmdave]

I'm not so sure about that re: low Game 1 %. Even in metas where people are aware of the deck, I've been clocking outrageous game 1 win %s against everything but shardless and blood moon decks.

As for the league challenge, another 4-1 league result AGAIN losing to shardless in the turn 3 "does he have wasteland or liliana vs. triple combo lands" gambit. (He had Lily).

[apple713]

I'm not so sure about that re: low Game 1 %. Even in metas where people are aware of the deck, I've been clocking outrageous game 1 win %s against everything but shardless and blood moon decks.

As for the league challenge, another 4-1 league result AGAIN losing to shardless in the turn 3 "does he have wasteland or liliana vs. triple combo lands" gambit. (He had Lily).

i think the assumption should be that they have liliana instead of wasteland. They "generally" run more lilianas than wastelands. Also, its better to assume liliana anyways because if you assume wasteland and make the token early and they have liliana you lose two lands (if making it with stage / depths). Assuming liliana and guessing wrong they only get 1 land with wasteland.

[jdmdave]

Yeah, I'm starting to see the merits of that line of play.

Lines of play assuming no protection/discard vs Wasteland decks:

* Delver Decks - Run out Marit Lage on your turn (Yes Wasteland, No on the rest)
* Shardless - Eot Marit Lage on their turn
* Eldrazi - Run out Marit Lage on your turn (More Wastelands than Karakas)
* Lands - Basically can't go for it if they have G up
* Merfolk - Run out Marit Lage on your turn (Yes Wasteland, No on the rest)

[Whitefaces]

Vs Shardless it depends how much mana they have access to. If they're able to cast Jace as well as Liliana, make the token eot. If they can only cast Lili, play around Wasteland. It's rare to see more than 2 Lili in decks these days, and it's usually 3 or 4 Wastelands.

[ComplexPants]

I have run into BUG delver that runs Lilly, Cruel Edict and Wastes. I would watch out for that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ruckusmh]

I saw a bug list 5-0 today, is the consensus that those lists are worse? Difference in matchups?

[Negator77']

Lines of play assuming no protection/discard vs Wasteland decks:
* Merfolk - Run out Marit Lage on your turn (Yes Wasteland, No on the rest)

Not sure I agree with that line against Merfolk, especially post board. It's hasn't been a common match-up in quite some time, but I have seen everything from multiple Phantasmal Images to Gilded Drake from them that could make jamming main phase really bad.... especially the Drake. If you know you can resolve Hexmage or cast Decay post combo, then Image isn't a card to worry about though. Merfolk versions often differ in the number of wastelands they run too. I've seen every number from none to four.


I saw a bug list 5-0 today, is the consensus that those lists are worse? Difference in matchups?

The consensus is that straight BG is the way to go based on # of players who run that version. I personally disagree, but am biased obviously. The usual solid advice given in this thread is to try any/all versions you think could be good and decide which you think is better.

[DNSolver]

BUG list plays very differently I imagine. Not having fast mana changes a lot of matchups.

Went 5-0 tonight *in paper* at my LGS. Played 3 Into the North and Snow basics over my 3 Expedition Map.

R1: Budget deck 2-0

R2: Bant + black Stoneblade 2-1 - this guy played his Wastelands and Stifles very aggressively and I lost G2 to not drawing enough lands. Felt pretty bad. G1 and G3 were pretty easy though.

R3: BR Reanimator 2-0 - won the die roll G1, G2 I keep Hexmage, Duress, Chalice, ESG, Verdant, Depths, scry Urborg to the top. I needed to threaten combo on turn 2 and it's fast enough against his double discard draw taking my Duress and Chalice on turn 1.

R4: Sneak and Show (traditional) 2-0 - My opponent mis-boarded a bit but was familiar with my deck. G1 we both mulligan and I'm a turn faster to find what I need despite losing the die roll - take that, blue cards! G2 my opponent misplays by letting me resolve a Hexmage and I play Depths from hand. I still had a lot of good cards left in my hand so I am confident I would have won the game. Sideboarding was +1 Needle +3 Decay +4 Chalice +3 Surgical +1 Karakas for -4 Petal -4 ESG -3 Into the North -1 Bojuka Bog

R5: BUG Landstill 2-0 not much to say here, outraced his manlands in G2 by a timely green mana source draw.

Lost 1 game on the night. Into the North was fine and made the deck incrementally faster due to not costing essentially 3 mana to get a land. I definitely am NOT cutting a green land for another Urborg though, the deck needs its green lands with Into the North instead of Map.

[Doneval]

Lost 1 game on the night. Into the North was fine and made the deck incrementally faster due to not costing essentially 3 mana to get a land. I definitely am NOT cutting a green land for another Urborg though, the deck needs its green lands with Into the North instead of Map.

Congrats and thanks for the mini-report. I'll have to try running more Into the North and see how it goes.

When you say you're not adding another Urborg, how many are you running in your version? 3 like most lists?

[DNSolver]

List from above post:

4 Dark Depths
4 Stage
3 Urborg
2 Bayou
4 Verdant
2 Snow-Covered Basics
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Into the North
3 Pithing Needle
3 Not of This World
4 Lotus Petal
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress

SB:
3 Surgical
4 Chalice
1 Karakas
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Pithing Needle

[AmokPL]

List from above post:

4 Dark Depths
4 Stage
3 Urborg
2 Bayou
4 Verdant
2 Snow-Covered Basics
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Into the North
3 Pithing Needle
3 Not of This World
4 Lotus Petal
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress

SB:
3 Surgical
4 Chalice
1 Karakas
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Pithing Needle


Looks really solid but why that Marsh instead of third Bayou? I kind of dislike Maps as well, might want to try that 3 ItN approach?

[jdmdave]

Marsh dodges submerge. Also not a fan of 3x Urborg, 4x is non-negotiable for me.

I'll be @ Hareruya next Tuesday doing testing for a local 10k USD Chinese legacy tournament on the 6th. Will report back.

[AmokPL]

Marsh dodges submerge.

as a one off? also not searchable by fetches but, whatever suits you.

I am testing 4 Urborgs now and I will probably keep them. Tired of colorless hands.

Next in line for testing - 4 main Needles (happy to get them in most matchups, plus gives us an extra slot in sb) and 2 Sylvan Libraries (as suggested by Evan).

[jdmdave]

I've long run a 3-5 split of fastlands vs fetches+bayou+basics. Works well.

I'm also going to attend on of Hareruya's Holiday tournaments next tuesday, will do a thorough report.

[DNSolver]

Stuck between 2 decks for GP Louisville: this and BR Griselbrand.

I really like how Depths rolls Delver and Eldrazi pretty hard while having game against most BS decks that I could encounter in the first few rounds due to the discard spells and semi-fast combo.

Considering a major sideboard change to drastically improve Miracles and possibly Stoneblade matchups:

Old sideboard:
3 Surgical
4 Decay
4 Chalice
1 Pithing Needle
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Emrakul the Promised End

New sideboard:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost / Vesuva or a mix of the two cards
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Abrupt Decay? Pretty sure we need these.

I think that the Death and Taxes matchup will remain reasonable, yet not great. Some combo matchups (such as Reanimator) will suffer from no Surgicals, and storm from no Chalices. Lands might suck a bit more too without Surgicals, but hopefully Pithing Needles can get there? Not sure if this sideboard plan would work against Lands... Kind of a weird plan, but I think we need 8 posts + 4 Stages to maintain a critical mass of posts. Wondering if the people playing the Cabal Coffers -> Emrakul, the Aeons Torn plan or similar plans would chime in.

If anyone plays Miracles and would like to test this plan on Cockatrice over the next week or so, I would be down. Message me.

[ClimbGneiss]

Stuck between 2 decks for GP Louisville: this and BR Griselbrand.

I really like how Depths rolls Delver and Eldrazi pretty hard while having game against most BS decks that I could encounter in the first few rounds due to the discard spells and semi-fast combo.

Considering a major sideboard change to drastically improve Miracles and possibly Stoneblade matchups:

Old sideboard:
3 Surgical
4 Decay
4 Chalice
1 Pithing Needle
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Emrakul the Promised End

New sideboard:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost / Vesuva or a mix of the two cards
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Abrupt Decay? Pretty sure we need these.

I think that the Death and Taxes matchup will remain reasonable, yet not great. Some combo matchups (such as Reanimator) will suffer from no Surgicals, and storm from no Chalices. Lands might suck a bit more too without Surgicals, but hopefully Pithing Needles can get there? Not sure if this sideboard plan would work against Lands... Kind of a weird plan, but I think we need 8 posts + 4 Stages to maintain a critical mass of posts. Wondering if the people playing the Cabal Coffers -> Emrakul, the Aeons Torn plan or similar plans would chime in.

If anyone plays Miracles and would like to test this plan on Cockatrice over the next week or so, I would be down. Message me.

Not that I'm an expert, but when playing lands and testing it vs blade variants, chalice of the Void has been very impressive when playing it on 1. Surgical and Swords being what they are, it feels very important.

[Doneval]

Speaking of sideboards, I've only played the deck a little bit so far, but I was extremely unimpressed with Chalice against Delver.

Maybe it was a mistake sideboarding it in (although as a Delver player, I know how backbreaking it can be). Still, a couple of games I got my Chalice on one on turn one, and then proceeded to draw Needle, hand disruption, and Crop Rotation :-(

How are people sideboarding against delver? I think I would have been better off with the needles and no Chalice.

[Negator77']

Speaking of sideboards, I've only played the deck a little bit so far, but I was extremely unimpressed with Chalice against Delver.

Maybe it was a mistake sideboarding it in (although as a Delver player, I know how backbreaking it can be). Still, a couple of games I got my Chalice on one on turn one, and then proceeded to draw Needle, hand disruption, and Crop Rotation :-(

How are people sideboarding against delver? I think I would have been better off with the needles and no Chalice.

Personally, I've always been in the "minimal boarding required" camp against Delver. Up to 4 Needles and some # of Decays since they are useful against their main early clock and if they bring in Needle(s) as well.

[Doneval]

Personally, I've always been in the "minimal boarding required" camp against Delver. Up to 4 Needles and some # of Decays since they are useful against their main early clock and if they bring in Needle(s) as well.
Do you still run 4 Chalices in the sideboard then? If you're not bringing them in against Delver, then your only good target is Storm, right? 4 slots just for that seems overkill.

[Negator77']

Do you still run 4 Chalices in the sideboard then? If you're not bringing them in against Delver, then your only good target is Storm, right? 4 slots just for that seems overkill.

I do not run chalices, but the players who do run them primarily for certain combo match-ups and Miracles. Cutting off the cantrips, Swords and subsequent tops is big game against Miracles.... not to mention limiting any top activations to one shots if any snuck into play barring an answer to the chalice.

The delver match-ups always felt favorable enough to not require additional cards. Sticking with consistency, Needles, and some Decays is my opinion on the MU.

[ComplexPants]

I do not run chalices, but the players who do run them primarily for certain combo match-ups and Miracles. Cutting off the cantrips, Swords and subsequent tops is big game against Miracles.... not to mention limiting any top activations to one shots if any snuck into play barring an answer to the chalice.

The delver match-ups always felt favorable enough to not require additional cards. Sticking with consistency, Needles, and some Decays is my opinion on the MU.

Totally agree with negator on this one. Chalices are for storm, miracles and maybe BR reanimator on the play (DNSolver please correct me on this). However, I would say miracles is the biggest reason to play chalice. Some of us are experimenting with other answers to miracles (mana web, emrakul packages, winter orb) but right now I would say chalice is the default plan.

[TonyTaormina]

Hello all!

New to the deck, been testing it out for a few months now and am very happy with results. I've topped a lot of local events / fnm stuff and just been really happy with my matchups and the general resiliency of the deck. I've had a few troublesome decks and cards that seem to be difficult to play around and was just wanting some feedback from you guys.

Fetches / urborgs and mana fixing
In game two a lot of opponents needle / shut off thespian stage really quick and then while trying to piece together hexmage seems sometimes it's really hard to get double black and or just get the right mana together while combating your opponents routes to victory. Any thoughts on the correct amount of urborgs / fetchlands? I'm currently on 4 fetches and 3 urborg

Surgical extraction
When your opponent surgicals your depths it is pretty much a blowout I've quickly found; I guess the best option is to do one of these??- 1 surgical your own depths and fail to find, 2 noxious revival it back on top?, 3 play cards like coffin purge since it's pretty good against other decks?, 4 crop rotate and bajuka bog yourself? I guess I just need to play around it better.

Crucible of worlds
I agree that this card is amazing when you actually draw it in game 2/3 but there have been situations where I really need it and never see it or it show up to the party and just doesn't really change the board state; a lot of times I feel like I'm tapping out to play it then they just blow me out in the next few turns; is it bad to run 2 in side or are only a few ppl seeing results with COW?

Delver decks
I've yet to beat delver; I mainly speak of 4 color but the other variants have been giving me a run for my money lately and I'm just not really sure what the best game plan is here; it's been said that chalice is really good but the timing of chalice on one and other factors just seem that the good delver players play around and aren't phased by it. I mean they just counter it and then I've also just felt that chalice is really clunky in this matchup. Also lots of my losses to delver have basically been them probing me then realizing they need to go wide v quickly. So when they go wide I'm thinking oh I'll just toxic deluge - and it gets countered; idk also in the variant matchups they just chump with flipped delver and strategize around merit token in play. Any advice / approches to playing this matchup would be helpful.

Sideboarding in general
I've read through and seen a lot of you guys plan for various matchups but in general just seems hard to figure out what to trim. Seems to me depending on the matchups you have hand hate, land tutor, and sprit guides / lotus petals to trim from; what are some thoughts on what's needed or is it best to generally just cut a little from all categories? I know it depends on the matchup but honestly it's hard to decide as all three of these categories of the main board seem super useful in games 2 and three...

Thanks for any input!

[DNSolver]

I bring in Chalice against BR Reanimator play or draw. It's important to shut down their one-drops in the matchup: Entomb is a nightmare because a) it's one way to thwart a Bojuka Bog, and b) it finds Tidespout Tyrant to kill us. Also, if they get Griselbrand it's good to shut off them chaining into another creature to apply too much pressure, so Chalice on zero or one can stop Lotus Petals or Dark Rituals.

Tried some more testing with various Emrakul sideboard plans.

1) The 4-8 post plan uses up too many slots. We start losing matchups that should be byes.

2) In addition to trashing Miracles, the Cabal Coffers + Eye of Ugin plan felt fine against Stoneblade in my testing today. It's important to Needle Wasteland or have Stage and plenty of mana before playing either combo piece though (yikes! that would be bayud)

3) Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is the real deal. Forget the Promised End crap.

The only question I'm considering is what to cut to make room for the 3rd slot in my sideboard (I now need to cram a Cabal Coffers in the board). Potential cuts:
-the 4th Needle
-Karakas (though I think this is still good with the Emrakul plan to protect me from Cliques and take infinite turns, and necessary vs. Death and Taxes to deal with Mangara)
-down to 2 Surgicals (not likely...)
-down to 3 Chalices (...hmmmmm probably not)
-down to 3 Decays (too useful in so many matchups, including Miracles)

So I think the 4th Needle will be going unless someone can make a case for another card.

Edit: ninja'd by a sideboarding advice question. My answer:

Against decks that can easily answer your combo, you want to fill your deck with good cards and trim speed when you can. Examples of these matchups are Miracles, Stoneblade, and perhaps Death and Taxes. Therefore, you can cut up to 8 fast mana to make room for good sideboard cards.

Against Delver decks, you board in Decays to take care of Needles or buy time against their creatures. Other than that, Needle on Wasteland and/or a reasonable hand should lock up two wins in the matchup.

Against combo decks, some protection (such as Pithing Needle or Not of This World) can be trimmed because usually they can't interact with our token favorably. As an example, against Storm, Pithing Needle does nothing against them, and Not of This World is Not worthwile (heh heh). Therefore, you can cut those 6 or so cards for Chalices and Surgicals.

The utility lands (Ghost Quarter, Bojuka Bog, Sejiri Steppe) can be cut in the matchups where they do NOTHING. If they have any possible relevant application, I leave them in.

Duress can be cut in matchups where you want to take creatures. Duress can also be cut on the draw against fair decks that play out their relevant cards on the first few turns (Delver, Shardless, etc.).

If you're playing Into the North, you can cut it if you still have more cards to bring in. It's a bit clunky vs. Wasteland->Surgical Depths plays.

The above tips are general points. The deck is very flexible and many sideboarding plans are possible for each matchup. Also keep in mind that this is Legacy - part of learning your deck is learning how to sideboard and evaluate card choices post-board. Don't be too worried about getting it wrong a few times - the best way to get better at Legacy is by playing lots of Legacy. That's why I bought into Magic Online.

[studderingdave]

played my first games with depths in a local event. went 1-2 winning against burn and losing to BR reanimator and merfolk. I would have won against merfolk if i set needle on wasteland and not aether vial, newb mistake. Dan Miller always hits me up for games and despite my newness to the deck I did manage to beat him in two test games (no sideboarding). I really like how the deck can rebuild quickly and the hand hate really helps out.

running:

4 Petal
3 needle
4 ESG
4 hexmage
1 library
4 crop rotation
3 NotW
3 Bayou
3 Blooming Marsh
1 Bog
4 depths
1 GQ
1 steppe
1 SC forest
1 SC swamp
4 stage
4 urborg
4 duress
2 into the north
4 scrying
4 thoughtseize

SB

4 sphere
1 emrakul, aeons torn
3 abrupt decay
3 extraction
1 cabal coffers
1 eye of ugin
1 karakas
1 drownyard

i am working on the catacombs and chalices, but its a bad time of the year for spare funds. Deck ran pretty smoothly without but i want to have the options.

[DNSolver]

You don't need a Nephalia Drownyard if you're running the Emrakul plan in the sideboard like you are.

[studderingdave]

yeah that can easily be the fourth decay. thanks

[apple713]

@DNSolver

Do you have any details or stuff to add about your emrakul testing?
Are you fully sold on it?
Do you have trouble assembling it and winning with it against miracles?
Have you tested it against D&T?
Any other reservations about it?


Side note, you can board it in if you are worried about having dark depths surgicaled. Also, if you ran chalices and decays main over fast mana you wouldnt have an issue with your board :p

[jdmdave]

Didn't lose a game after starting 0-1 @ Hareruya's 8 round legacy tournament. Tried an Emrakul 2.0 + Eye package to great results, report coming later today

* Round 1 - Esper Rector Omniscience 1-2 (He did normal SnT - Omni - Emrakul Game 1. Game 2 I killed him Turn 2. Game 3 the rector showed up and bad news happened)
* Round 2 - Miracles - 2-0
* Round 3 - Miracles -2-1
* Round 4 - Miracles - 2-0
* Round 5 - Miracles 2-0
* Round 6 - Reanimator 2-1
* Round 7 - Reanimator 2-0
* Round 8 - Blood Moon Dragon Stax 2-0!!!!!! (This was the guy who got 30th @ Chiba. Tseize on the play MVP)

I'm now firmly in the boat that Emrakul 2.0 is better than Aeons Torn. Even if she gets countered, you can completely fuck up a miracles player with a mindslaver effect.

Maindeck

* 12 Combo Lands
* 1 Steppe
* 1 GQ
* 1 Bog
* 2 Verdant
* 1 Bayou
* 3 Marsh
* 2 Snow
* 4 ESG
* 4 Petal
* 4 Scrying
* 3 Into
* 3 Not of this world
* 3 Needle
* 4 Tseize
* 4 Duress
* 4 Crop Rotation
* 4 Hexmage

Sideboard

* 3 Decay
* 1 Needle
* 1 Karakas
* 3 Surgical
* 1 Emrakul the Promised End
* 1 Eye of Ugin
* 1 Cabal Coffers
* 4 Sphere of Resistance

[Namida]

How important did you feel the Cabal Coffers was if you were playing Emrakul the Promised End?

[jdmdave]

Non-negotiable. You just can't get to the 10-11ish mana necessary without it. Coffers is also very solid with Dark Depths as it can easily remove 2-3ish counters a turn in the drawn our miracles matchup.

[AmokPL]

Forgive me. I always thought your choices (manabase, Spheres) are made for budget but if they work fine for you I am very happy and rush with congratulations.

So for EM2.0 - you need to sneak Eye on the table, have Coffers, Urborg and Stage copying Coffers to actually play it?

[jdmdave]

Nah man, I own 3 bayous and multiple other duals. Painless T1-T3 duals in the form of fast lands are awesome without opening you up to submerge.

As for the coffers you are absolutely correct. You typically copy a coffers with a stage or 3, or just amass enough land to ugin + hardcast emrakul. 4 of those miracle game 2s came down to Big E wrecking face.

[DNSolver]

If i am running coffers it will be for emrakul the aeons torn. Promised end can be avoided by brainstorm + top activation so that you dont get to do much to hurt them. Its still good but i think the coffers plan lends itself very well to casting a threat they actually cant beat.

Jdmdave, could you post a rough sideboarding plan vs miracles and stoneblade with that list? Also, how many of your opponenta were on mentor, blood moon, etc. I guess you will include that in your report.

I probably wouldnt play Into the North if this plan is in the sideboard. Expedition map is very important for the plan to work.

[chaosjace]

What do you guys think of this list?
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14339&d=285628&f=LE
Looks interesting, I am debating on switching over to Dark Depths from RG Lands, the Graveyard is too much of a liability in my meta.

[Djehuti]

What do you guys think of this list?
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14339&d=285628&f=LE
Looks interesting, I am debating on switching over to Dark Depths from RG Lands, the Graveyard is too much of a liability in my meta.

I can't argue with results which Negator continues to put up. I like the brainstorm alot, aside from it being gas, it helps you keep things like sejiri steppe and bojuka bog in your library. I like duress more than Inquisition of kozilek in the straight BG list but the presence of brainstorm makes splits more reasonable. What i find interesting is no Basic lands + fewer fast green sources (mox diamont > ESG + Lotus Petal) + fewer pithing needles + 0 copies of Not of this world. Overall, it looks more consistent than BG but more vulnerable to wasteland and Swords to plowshares/karakas G1.

I switched over to this deck from RG lands for the same reason and I'm loving it :smile:

[Claymore]

How did those Miracles games go with the Emrakul board? Is it useful for anything else?

[jdmdave]

Nope. Pretty much only for crushing miracles.

I will write a detailed analysis later today after work.

[studderingdave]

how did you like spheres over chalice? i played against a miracles player locally and he said that he fears chalice more despite it hosing a lot of my own deck. i am currently on sphere.

[jdmdave]

Sphere is much better than chalice in this deck as you really want needle/tseize/duress/crop rotation.

Here is my list from the side event I played with a more traditional sideboard: http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD03871K/
Highly recommend hareruya if you visit tokyo.

[ComplexPants]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-gp-louisville-preparation-part-2

We are the new hotness. DNSolver is especially hot as Reanimator and Depths are listed there ;)

[jdmdave]

I'll take turn 3 blood moon or unsupported wastelands all day!!!!

[Djehuti]

So this just got spoiled:

http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/heroicintervention.html

Is 2 mana too expensive for this type of effect? It protects the combo in multiple ways but i think its too cute.

[DNSolver]

Surprisingly, I really like this card. With the fast mana version it might be castable semi-reasonably. It's aiming for the same slot as Not of This World, though, and I can't see cutting those without giving up on the D+T matchup completely. Against Miracles the 7 CMC of Not of This World matters vs. Counterbalance as well so I would say it's probably on the edge but not good enough.

[Whitefaces]

So this just got spoiled:

http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/heroicintervention.html

Is 2 mana too expensive for this type of effect? It protects the combo in multiple ways but i think its too cute.

The token is already indestructible. Just use Not of this World or Vines of Vastwood if you want this effect.

[chaosjace]

I was looking at a few options such as Nature's Way, for trample, Blossoming Defense for Hexproof, Apostle's Blessing, for Protection.
Has Ancient Stirrings been tested? How unhelpful is it?
I was also brewing a weird version with punishing fire/burnwillow for some creature removal.
4x vampire hexmage
4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian Stage
3x Not of this World
4x Mox Diamond/Lotus Petal
4x Sylvan Scrying/into the north
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
3x Punishing Fire
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Fetchland
2x Bayou
1x Taiga
1x Wasteland
1x Seijiri Steppe
2x Snow Land
4x Thoughtseize
3x Duress/Inquisition
1x Expedition Map
3x Urborg, Tomb of yawgmoth
4x Crop rotation

I know it's bad, I am new to the deck throwing some ideas out, sorry for being a potato :)

do you always name Wasteland with pithing needle if its in your opening hand?

[jdmdave]

burnwillows has massive disynergy with marit lage. Just play 200-300 games with the stock list before trying to turn this into some RG/BG lands hybrid imho.

Most of the posters here have put up strong MTGO results (DNsolver) or paper (Complexpants/myself).

[Djehuti]

The token is already indestructible. Just use Not of this World or Vines of Vastwood if you want this effect.

Vines and NotW are dead if you haven't made the token already. This also protects your lands which is unique and somewhat interesting.

[DNSolver]

Andrea Mengucci posted an article on CFB today:

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/bg-depths-deck-guide/

Interesting list that I will look over a lot. Relies exclusively on discard spells or fast starts against combo decks, which is...fine? Not buying the Boseiju plan though, would rather have Choke probably. Besides, I'm really liking the Emrakul plan.

[apple713]

Andrea Mengucci posted an article on CFB today:

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/bg-depths-deck-guide/

Interesting list that I will look over a lot. Relies exclusively on discard spells or fast starts against combo decks, which is...fine? Not buying the Boseiju plan though, would rather have Choke probably. Besides, I'm really liking the Emrakul plan.

it sounds like he needs more testing, or to just read the last few pages of this thread. We've discussed things like gloom, and karakas, into the north vs expedition map, and options running boseju. And even though some of us have slightly different opinions we are fairly united in our opinions on those cards.

[Negator77']

Andrea Mengucci posted an article on CFB today:

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/bg-depths-deck-guide/

Interesting list that I will look over a lot. Relies exclusively on discard spells or fast starts against combo decks, which is...fine? Not buying the Boseiju plan though, would rather have Choke probably. Besides, I'm really liking the Emrakul plan.

I second your opinion on Boseiju, not a fan in this deck. Granted, he is running Tsunami as a card to push through counters that none of us really are. Combo is a little too difficult for my tastes with only discard spells. I run a set of brainstorms which add slightly to the density of discard and still board additional disruption for combo. It requires 2-4 sideboard slots in my opinion (Spheres, chalices, counters, whatever) in addition to 7-8 discard spells to really make those match-ups favorable.

He seems to have a handle on how the match-ups he discussed play out. I disagree with a few things, with Hexmage being boarded out against D+T being high on the list. It brick walls small creatures like Revoker and co, removes Vial counters, blocks equipped guys (preventing lifegain from Batterskull has won me several matches), baits swords at times, enables the fastest combos that get under their stream of answers at times, sets up the double combo of Hexmage/Depths/Stage to play through Wasteland, etc. Too good to cut imo. Gloom against D+T attacks the cards we already have the most answers to, mainly swords. Perhaps you just jam it on turn 1 or 2 with acceleration and just "get them" before they have any board, but that seems corner case with only 2 copies. It doesn't touch many of the true problem cards like Wasteland, Karakas, Vial/Flicker, and Port.

All in all, not too far off of the main BG shell though.


What do you guys think of this list?
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14339&d=285628&f=LE
Looks interesting, I am debating on switching over to Dark Depths from RG Lands, the Graveyard is too much of a liability in my meta.

I like it, it looks great! :)

In all seriousness, if you have any questions about the list..... fire away.

[jdmdave]

Yeah, not a fan of boseiju plan. Should we PM him on reddit/facebook and let him in on the emrakul plan?

As for myself, I am running a 10k/5k 2 day legacy tournament this weekend and am weighing the emrakul plan vs traditional plan in a wide, unknown meta. Mainboard is my typical 3x Into the North,0x Map all in build. I've shifted the library to the sideboard in favor of a 3rd main NOTW due to a higher than average amount of DnT

Board A

* 1 Needle
* 1 Karakas
* 3 Surgical
* 3 Abrupt
* 4 Sphere
* 1 Eye
* 1 Emrakul 2.0 (I still think mindslaver, even if countered, is better than timewalk vs miracles. Yes, they can defensively shuffle away everything, but that achieves the desired goal.)
* 1 Cabal Coffers

Board B

* 1 Needle
* 1 Karakas
* 3 Surgical
* 3 Abrupt
* 4 Sphere
* 1 Deluge
* 1 Drownyard/Worm Harvest
* 1 Crucible

[AmokPL]

I tried the EM 2.0 package against two Miracle decks and it didn't go very well. It WILL get countered, cards will get hidden and it won't make that much impact on the game as I hoped it would. By the time it will be set you will most likely face CB/TOP package anyway.

I am thinking of testing something like Gaea's Revenge or even Thrun, the Last Troll which can be dealt only with Terminus.

[ottomanottoman]

4-0'ed a legacy local last night with the same list I used at the IQ. The 1-of deluge main came in handy more than once again. I ended up beating 4c Delver, Shardless, 4c Tezz/Artifact/Superfriends that has the new commander Breya, and BR Reanimator.

For some reason people keep running little guys into my hexmage forgetting it has first strike. How often does this happen to you guys because it seems like it has happened at least once every time I've brought the deck out to paper events?

[AmokPL]

For some reason people keep running little guys into my hexmage forgetting it has first strike. How often does this happen to you guys because it seems like it has happened at least once every time I've brought the deck out to paper events?

happens to me also a lot since I have them foiled in Japanese :laugh:

[Claymore]

Went 4-0 in a Legacy Challenge, lost the bonus round to Legends Miracles 1-2. Very close game 3, came down to top decks.

Maindeck Bind let me blow out his Brainstorm fetch and win from there game 2.

Spheres feel completely correct over Chalice, you need way too much interaction with Miracles to run Chalice (discard, surgical, Crop), and Spheres let you slow down combo just enough to win. Were critical to beating Omni.

[ComplexPants]

Congrats! Can you post your list?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Claymore]

Not sure anyone would want it since I followed that up with a 2-4 performance in the GP. Lots of Karakas out there.

[Negator77']

Not sure anyone would want it since I followed that up with a 2-4 performance in the GP. Lots of Karakas out there.

Anyone can run bad for a single tourney. Comparing/discussing lists and ideas is always a good thing to do imo.

[ComplexPants]

Anyone can run bad for a single tourney. Comparing/discussing lists and ideas is always a good thing to do imo.

Not legacy, but I just 0-3 Dropped in a modern GPT with RW prison. Bad events happen, and they are super frustrating.

[DNSolver]

Made day 2 with dank depths. Typical turbo list with emrakul plan.

Was very surprised but happy being recognized by my voice at the player meeting and by my source account by griselbranders and marit lagers alike. I am the crownprince of unfair.

Hoping to get top 64 tomorrow.

[Whitefaces]

Nice one, I guess that's a 6-3? Just don't lose tomorrow now ;)

[DNSolver]

12-3 at gp louisville. Worst breakers put me in 36th. List should go on the magic website.

Rounds:

Abzan stoneblade L
Ub reanimator W
Grixis delver W
4c delver W
Sneak and show W
Dredge W
Miracles W
Br reanimator W
Miracles L

Ur delver W
4c delver W
Miracles L
Bug delver W
Death and taxes W
Omnitell W

Cabal coffers and eye of ugin plan in the sideboard for miracles was iffy. I believe i got very unlucky in the miracles games, rarely hitting needles or decays. Still needs investigating. Might consider making room for a 4-of card like sylvan library or dark confidant or bitterblossom, but i will wait until after the banned and restricted list is updated.

[Doneval]

Congrats DNSolver!

Keep us updated on your sideboarding plans. I'd love to hear the reasoning behind different strategies. Is it mostly the miracles matchup that you're concerned about?

[ComplexPants]

Congrats dude!!!

[jdmdave]

Well done dude. I cashed my tournament (for 100 bucks :) )

What was the Louisville meta like?

[DNSolver]

Make no mistake - I still won $250 in 36th place. People with my same record got top 16.

[ComplexPants]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gplou17/9-32-decklists-2017-01-08

#32, don't think this is you DNSolver, just looking at the list. I guess that means 2 in the top 36 though.

[Fade]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gplou17/9-32-decklists-2017-01-08

#32, don't think this is you DNSolver, just looking at the list. I guess that means 2 in the top 36 though.

I placed 32nd at GP Louisville. A friend (Okapikid) and I worked on the list starting about a week prior to the tournament. DNSolver and I actually were seated next to each other in the last round and got to talk about the deck for a bit after I finished my match.

[Claymore]

This is the #32 list, pretty interesting. No fetches at all.

Creature (8)
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
Sorcery (14)
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Into the North
3 Sylvan Scrying
Instant (4)
4 Crop Rotation
Artifact (7)
4 Lotus Petal
3 Pithing Needle
Enchantment (1)
1 Sylvan Library
Land (22)
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Blooming Marsh
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Bayou
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
Tribal instant (4)
4 Not of This World
60 Cards

Sideboard (15)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Karakas
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Natural State
4 Dark Confidant
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Steely Resolve

[oneiros76]

Grats to everyone that did well at louisville! Dnsolver was that you I watched mull to 3 vs br reanimator then crop rotation his yard then runner the combo on him?

[DNSolver]

Now that I'm home, I am going to post some more tournament report information. This won't be a round-by-round because most of the rounds were uninteresting and I won strictly by deck selection and not punting. Below are a few of the highlights:

In Round 8 against BR Reanimator I mulligan'd in G3 looking for a good hand on the draw. None of my hands were doing it. On 3 cards I found Petal, Crop Rotation, Surgical, and kept, scrying Blooming Marsh to the top. My opponent's Thoughtseize took my Surgical, then he combo'd into my Crop Rotation to force me to get rid of my Blooming Marsh to Bog him. I promptly drew Petal -> Stage -> Depths and won before he could combo again.

In Round 7 my Miracles opponent was 5-1 and had never played Legacy before, let alone Miracles.

Several opponents put Engineered Explosives on zero and made a confident face for a few turns.

In several of my post-board games against Miracles I came close to casting Emrakul, but I didn't end up casting it all weekend.

Against 4-color Delver in Round 11, I won by playing all 4 Vampire Hexmages in the first 5-6 turns, and attacking my opponent to death by Decay'ing his Tarmogoyf.

I was recognized by my voice at the player meeting, by the player sitting next to me, also on Turbo Depths.

Also, I guess Wizards is unwilling to post top 64 decklists. Here's my sideboard:

3 Surgical
3 Chalice
1 Needle
1 Karakas
4 Decay
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

[apple713]

In several of my post-board games against Miracles I came close to casting Emrakul, but I didn't end up casting it all weekend.


was this because you died before casting it or won by other means?

[jdmdave]

I ran into the same situation, hence why I settled on Emrakul 2.0

[chaosjace]

What is the difference between 'dark depths' and 'turbo dark depths'?

[jdmdave]

Nothing. BG Dark Depths is typically called Turbo Depths vs say RG Combo Lands which is less all in on the combo

[studderingdave]

steely resolve is interesting. i am currently running zero fetches and the deck is running fine.

[hymnyou]

Played one side event and went 3-1, lost to SnT for my win and in for battle for bye. Beat Aggro Loam, Deathblade and Miracles.

Was 5-1 (no byes) in main event then scrubbed out. Show and tell top decked BloodMoon in game 3 after I had got rid of his threats and never saw removal for moon all game. Eldrazi got me in game 3 with a perfectly timed endbringer (prob should add to section of 'issues deck faces'), and TES just killed me in 2; turn 1 tendrils and then turn 2 tendrils- with a leyline out.

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Vampire Hexmage
1 Dark Confidant

4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
2 Sylvan Library
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Abrupt Decay

3 Lotus Petal
4 Pithing Needle

4 Dark Depths
3 Thespian Stage
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp

2 Krosan Grip
2 Not of this World
1 Steely Resolve
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Karakas
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Massacre

[hymnyou]

I placed 32nd at GP Louisville. A friend (Okapikid) and I worked on the list starting about a week prior to the tournament.

How did you like the manabase? Seems like a good addition in the sense of getting around submerge and Seems like you lose shuffle synergy with library and grabbing a basic on turn which I find relevant. I am assuming thats why the into the north number is upped, and spirit guide being the mana assist to cast in binds. Sideboard looks great, solid list. What do you think of 3 bob's (-1) and 2 natural states(+1)? Anything underperform or anything perform better than anticipated?

[Fade]

How did you like the manabase? Seems like a good addition in the sense of getting around submerge and Seems like you lose shuffle synergy with library and grabbing a basic on turn which I find relevant. I am assuming thats why the into the north number is upped, and spirit guide being the mana assist to cast in binds. Sideboard looks great, solid list. What do you think of 3 bob's (-1) and 2 natural states(+1)? Anything underperform or anything perform better than anticipated?

The manabase was great for me all weekend. Realistically, the deck makes a 20/20 on turn 2-3 most games, so the fastland disadvantage never really comes up. Even if they have the answer to the 20/20 you've gone down 1-2 lands and any Blooming Marshes you have left will likely be untapped. The biggest gain is obviously the land not being a forest for submerge. As for the shuffling effect, there are other ways to shuffle with the land tutors if you find your Sylvan Library isn't finding what you need. I'd rather not open the deck up to Stifle on fetchlands when it's not necessary. As for prioritizing basics, ideally you want to Pithing Needle Wasteland as soon as possible and at that point getting basics isn't as crucial. You also want to keep the basics in the deck for Into the North if you already have a Dark Depths out.

I normally play the deck with 23 lands but have noticed some builds that play 21 lands when the deck first came out. I felt like I could comfortably play 22 lands without much of a problem. The last land added to the deck was the Bayou and I considered playing a Llanowar Wastes instead to further protect myself from Submerge. In the end, the Bayou was only the second forest in the deck and I felt like the painland would be worse. Crop Rotation targeting your forests was a major factor in this decision as well. If you wanted to play 21 lands then the card that should played instead of the Bayou is the 4th Sylvan Scrying.

I can see cutting a bob from the sb for another disenchant effect whether it's the 4th Abrupt Decay or the 2nd Natural State I am not to sure on. I think I would lean towards Abrupt Decay. However, I do not recommend playing less Bobs. They come in against every deck where NOTW is taken out and catches a lot of players off guard. He also helps dig for your combo or discard to stay alive against other combo decks.

[Lio]

Do you board Dark Confidants in versus Miracles? I can see Bob being great card advantage or a removal-bait. If they Terminus/Stp Bob, you can Surgical their removal away. Only downside is flipping NotW off of Dark Confidant.
In what matchup is Natural State good? Blood Moon and Vial decks?

[Fade]

Do you board Dark Confidants in versus Miracles? I can see Bob being great card advantage or a removal-bait. If they Terminus/Stp Bob, you can Surgical their removal away. Only downside is flipping NotW off of Dark Confidant.

I do. Dark Confidant is inherently difficult for them to beat. I also leave in NOTW in that matchup so sometimes you take large chunks off of Dark Confidant but Miracles has next to no clock so you shouldn't worry too much about Bob killing you. Steely Resolve also helps in the matchup and naming Human for Bob creates a threat they have to terminus away or accept that they will be out-carded.

I don't normally board in Surgicals as my board plan already involves around ~10 cards for the matchup but it is a possibility. I just feel between Steely Resolve, NOTW and Crop Rotation for Steppe, Surgicals are not needed for Plows. It's also awkward when Miracles boards in a Rest In Peace thinking that you play Life from the Loam.

Natural State is better against Blood Moon and Non-Chalice cards than Abrupt Decay. It allows you to only need 1 fast mana to get rid of a Blood Moon instead of two. It's a small hedge but I think it's worth it.

[Lio]

Thanks for clarification. I will try singleton Bob and 3 Tireless Trackers as I do not own playset of Confidants anymore.

I play at LGS regularly with competent players and when I was on coffers+eye+emrakul plan (which worked), they learned to try to kill me as soon as possible and sometimes Emrakul 1.0 on T7 was not enough (when going full Emrakul plan, I hesitate to sac two lands into 20/20 and usually just threaten the combo).

Reasoning behind Surgical Extraction is mostly to mess up with Terminus set up - if they don't have Counterbalance+Top out (which is very difficult to beat without AD), Surgical acts as a counter against miracle cards (and protection against opposing Surgicals). It works sometimes. But I do not play Steely Resolve (actually I am not huge fan of enchantments against Miracles as they board in Wear/Tear to get rid of Pithing Needles).

[Claymore]

My losses were the likes of:

RUG Delver: Quick kill game 1, then mull into hands of disruption plus one combo piece. Draw no combo pieces or search rest of the game.
DnT: Have NotW to protect against Lage game 2. Otherwise, see above.
Eldrazi: Have Ghost Quarter to kill his Karakas game 1, then lose to double Chalice (1 and 2), and then lose to his top decked one-of Karakas game 3.
Legends Miracles: Opponent has never played Miracles before, but has all the Swords, Snapcasters, Vensers, and Karakas to deal with me. Game 2 he mulls to Land, Land, Entreat, Entreat, Brainstorm or similar. I strip his Swords with Lost Legacy, see no answers in hand, make Lage following turn, but he plays a Venser and wins from there with Karakas or Terminus backup. Might have waited an unecessary turn by playing Lost Legacy instead of making Lage, but I had no disruption other than a turn 1 Needle.

I typically was siding out my Into the North (avoid pushing out an unprotected Depths into a Wasteland) and Expedition Maps, along with some discard or fast mana depending on the match. I generally kept in Sylvan Scrying.

Most of my wins were turn 1 Urborg + discard, turn 2 Depths + Hexmage.

[jdmdave]

Looks like 5-6 of us played GP Louisville/GP Chiba to strong >70% MW results - perhaps its time we redo the primer with our various lists?

2 12-3s
1 11-4

Who else?

[Barthalamou]

I was also at GP Louisville, my first GP! 6-3 day 1 and 0-3 day 2 for a drop. All of my losses on day 2 were play mistakes I made where because I didn't know the matchup or I tried to go off too soon. Here is the list I ran:

4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian's Stage
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Bayou
1x Snow-Covered Forest
1x Snow-Covered Swamp
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Bojuka Bog

4x Vampire Hexmage
4x Crop Rotation
4x Sylvan Scrying
3x Into the North
1x Sylvan Library

3x Pithing Needle
4x Thoughtsieze
3x Duress
2x NOTW

4x Lotus Petal
4x Elvish Spirit Guide

Side:
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Krosan Grip
1x NOTW
1x Pithing Needle
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Maze of Ith
1x Karakas

I like the main how it is. Maze of Ith I feel was a poor choice. I'm considering taking our the 4 chalice for 4 Bobs. Chalice was great against storm and omnitell but Miracles is a harder matchup and they can often play around the chalice. Also considering the Blooming Marsh route, not having to play around submerge would be nice although I didn't see that card once. Shardless and other Lili Hymn decks can be an issue. I've been considering Khalani Garden as a 1 of for those matchups or even for annihilator trigger vs emmy.

A fun play a D&T pilot did to me was Sanctum Prelate on 7.

[DNSolver]

I do. Dark Confidant is inherently difficult for them to beat. I also leave in NOTW in that matchup so sometimes you take large chunks off of Dark Confidant but Miracles has next to no clock so you shouldn't worry too much about Bob killing you. Steely Resolve also helps in the matchup and naming Human for Bob creates a threat they have to terminus away or accept that they will be out-carded.

I don't normally board in Surgicals as my board plan already involves around ~10 cards for the matchup but it is a possibility. I just feel between Steely Resolve, NOTW and Crop Rotation for Steppe, Surgicals are not needed for Plows. It's also awkward when Miracles boards in a Rest In Peace thinking that you play Life from the Loam.

Natural State is better against Blood Moon and Non-Chalice cards than Abrupt Decay. It allows you to only need 1 fast mana to get rid of a Blood Moon instead of two. It's a small hedge but I think it's worth it.

Could you post a sideboard in/out against Miracles? If there are differences between Legends and typical Predict/Mentor builds could you specify those? I'm really interested in trying the Dark Confidants, but I would probably cut NOTW if that was the plan. I don't run Steely Resolve so I don't know about that. I have thought about Thrun, the Last Troll + Karakas because it beats Terminus and Plow and also seems fine against Stoneblade, but that might be too cute. I don't play Surgical in the matchup anymore, and that comes from testing against Sam Roukas online (IsThisACatinAHat). He recommended Drownyard but I think we can do better.

If I was going to run another artifact/enchantment removal spell, I would run Krosan Grip over Natural State, because then we can bring it in vs. Miracles and have it do something.

Miracles question: How does everyone's opponents board vs us? I was trying to test the matchup last night and I believe their best board plan is something like:

-2 Predict
-1 Counterspell
-1 Force of Will
-1 Counterbalance
-2 Terminus (I really don't think this is optimal, but it gets cut entirely vs. typical Lands so maybe it's fine? Not sure what else to cut...)

+2 Blood Moon (obvious)
+2 Wear/Tear (I'm pretty sure they HAVE to bring this in to survive potential Choke or Library)
+1 E.E. (to kill Needles only? Might be too fringe)
+2 Surgical Extraction (can deal with a graveyard plan post-board such as Loam/Crucible, can hit Abrupt Decay after baiting one out so that Blood Moon is a lock, can hit Depths)

How do sideboarding plans differ for you guys?

[chaosjace]

Could you post a sideboard in/out against Miracles? If there are differences between Legends and typical Predict/Mentor builds could you specify those? I'm really interested in trying the Dark Confidants, but I would probably cut NOTW if that was the plan. I don't run Steely Resolve so I don't know about that. I have thought about Thrun, the Last Troll + Karakas because it beats Terminus and Plow and also seems fine against Stoneblade, but that might be too cute. I don't play Surgical in the matchup anymore, and that comes from testing against Sam Roukas online (IsThisACatinAHat). He recommended Drownyard but I think we can do better.

If I was going to run another artifact/enchantment removal spell, I would run Krosan Grip over Natural State, because then we can bring it in vs. Miracles and have it do something.

Miracles question: How does everyone's opponents board vs us? I was trying to test the matchup last night and I believe their best board plan is something like:

-2 Predict
-1 Counterspell
-1 Force of Will
-1 Counterbalance
-2 Terminus (I really don't think this is optimal, but it gets cut entirely vs. typical Lands so maybe it's fine? Not sure what else to cut...)

+2 Blood Moon (obvious)
+2 Wear/Tear (I'm pretty sure they HAVE to bring this in to survive potential Choke or Library)
+1 E.E. (to kill Needles only? Might be too fringe)
+2 Surgical Extraction (can deal with a graveyard plan post-board such as Loam/Crucible, can hit Abrupt Decay after baiting one out so that Blood Moon is a lock, can hit Depths)

How do sideboarding plans differ for you guys?


From what I have played in Miracles, you are accurate on the cards I would bring in, I don't run predict but I would probably do something like
-2 Mentor
-1 JTMS
-1 Counterbalance
-2 Counterspell
-1 E.E
I personally don't cut terminus against any creature strategy, this could be wrong but it hasn't come back to bite me yet. I would cut mentor and aim for the entreat or find my 1 of Jace for a slow win after hopefully extracting depths. That is just how I play the deck.

[Claymore]

Just a quick thought, I had a TON of people side in shit like Rest in Peace and Surgicals (for Loam) against me because they thought I was a Lands variant with graveyard reliance. The surgicals are obviously relevant, but even if people get Turn 2'd by Hexmage they still side in gravehate. Figured it worth a mention going forward for sideboard considerations (Loam, Crucible, Worm Harvest, etc).

[apple713]

Just a quick thought, I had a TON of people side in shit like Rest in Peace and Surgicals (for Loam) against me because they thought I was a Lands variant with graveyard reliance. The surgicals are obviously relevant, but even if people get Turn 2'd by Hexmage they still side in gravehate. Figured it worth a mention going forward for sideboard considerations (Loam, Crucible, Worm Harvest, etc).

I play with 1 loam main deck and almost always sideboard it out game 2 because of that very issue. In the grand scheme of things, if taking it out so often i might just consider another main deck card. The issue is as a 1 of for game 1, it adds so much value.

[jdmdave]

Yeah, I've been aware of surgicals getting boarded in vs me even if they know I'm not RG combo lands. Definitely more and more in favor of the Emrakul 2.0 plan.

[Fade]

Could you post a sideboard in/out against Miracles? If there are differences between Legends and typical Predict/Mentor builds could you specify those? I'm really interested in trying the Dark Confidants, but I would probably cut NOTW if that was the plan. I don't run Steely Resolve so I don't know about that. I have thought about Thrun, the Last Troll + Karakas because it beats Terminus and Plow and also seems fine against Stoneblade, but that might be too cute. I don't play Surgical in the matchup anymore, and that comes from testing against Sam Roukas online (IsThisACatinAHat). He recommended Drownyard but I think we can do better.

If I was going to run another artifact/enchantment removal spell, I would run Krosan Grip over Natural State, because then we can bring it in vs. Miracles and have it do something.

Here was the notes from the sb guide I made for miracles before the tournament.

In: 4 Dark Confidant, 3 Abrupt Decay, Pithing Needle, 2 Steely Resolve (Can board in some number of Surgical for Swords)
Out: Bojuka Bog, 2 Crop Rotation, 4 Lotus Petal, Into the North, 2 Sylvan Scrying
Needle: Sensei's Divining Top, Karakas, Jace, Fetches (Engineered Explosives - after board)

I treat all the versions of miracles the same as the combo is much faster than their clock and all I'm trying to do is make a 20/20 and protect it as much as possible. It may be strange to cut Crop Rotation, but I want to shave 1 drops in case of cb lock. I do not cut NOTW against miracles. They have plenty of ways to target the 20/20 and you want as much protection as possible. Taking 7 off of Bob will not kill you in this matchup. Just think of the Jim Davis' Sultai Delver deck where he plays Bobs and Forces main. I have a similar plan here.

Thrun is interesting but 4 mana is too much in my opinion. The legends and mentor Miracles lists also have ways to block Thrun so it is not even a guaranteed 5 turn clock from when you play it.

As for Krosan Grip over Natural State, I prefer to have the cheaper costing spell. Honestly, I prefer all my sb cards to be 2 mana or under. There are plenty of awkward draws in the deck where you make a 20/20 on turn 2 and have no lands left in play. The Natural State allows you to play a land and answer an Elephant's Grass or Ensnaring Bridge. It also helps against Blood Moon only needing one fast mana or the basic forest. I don't think I want another card for Miracles. If I did I would just run the last Abrupt Decay.

[MegaManR]

Just wanted to say thanks to all of you who have contributed to the thread and the deckbuilding. Because of the "GP Chiba - 133rd" reddit post, I am actively building this deck now after playing Elves! for 3-4 years. ("Unfortunately for him I rip a crop rotation and sejiri steppe right past him" is the best quote I've ever read in a tournament report write-up.)


I'm testing it out before biting the bullet on buying the 4 Dark Depths and obviously waiting on Verdant Catacombs to be reprinted. Still need the 4 Sphere of Resistance OR 4 Chalice of the Void and 1 Crucible of Worlds (Here's hoping I pull one tomorrow at the AER Pre-Release. LoL), but everything else that I needed I bought for myself as a Christmas present.


Anyway, after reading through all 61 pages (yes, I've read it all, forgotten a lot of who specifically wrote what, but I've read it all. Again, thanks to all of you for the posts), I'm leaning towards DNSolver's list, but 2 things I'm wondering about that I don't think have been brought up yet:

What about a 1-2 of Centaur Vinecrasher if we want a big dumb trampling beater? I'm thinking of testing it just for fun to see if another threat is a good idea (after our lands have been used, there are usually a lot of lands in both players' graveyards in Legacy, and after our opponent has used some number of StPs and Terminus on our Tokens if it goes that late? I don't know)?


What are everyone's thoughts on Living Wish and leaving 1 Vampire Hexmage and 1 Dark Depths in the sideboard? Lukas Marik played a list with 4 in some random Legacy tournament in Switzerland. Interesting to me, though he cut Into the North/Expedition Map for them.

http://gameplace.ch/gpevents/legacy-8-1-17/


I know we're weak to Swords to Plowshares, Terminus, and Surgical Extraction, but I'm thinking these 2 suggestions might be worth testing.
*edit: I forgot to mention that we are weak to card advantage after using all our fast mana and resources, so I get that 4 mana is tough. The Dark Confidant suggestion is interesting to me, as well. I have a soft spot for Sylvan Library, so that will always be in my list.

Anyway, just wanted to jump on the board and say Thanks and that I've joined the ranks of Turbo Dark Depths. Deck is sweet.

[Claymore]

I'm not so much a fan of Sylvan Library in this deck, although I love the card in every other green deck. Too often you need exactly one tool for the situation, and Sylvan is better for smoothing out an interactive game, not just jamming a big pile of spaghetti on the field.

I actually like the idea of removing Into the North/Map for Living Wish. I cut ItN/Map in almost every game since Map is slow and ItN leaves you open to a wasteland on Depths. I didn't want to keep it in for the Rampant Growth effect. Being able to fetch up Depths, Hexmage, Stage, Tabernacle, GQ, Wasteland, Shizo, Steppe, Rec Sage, Sylvan Safekeeper whatever seems worth checking out.

[Barthalamou]

For sideboard vs miracles what do we think of Liliana, the Last Hope?
For the people who tried Nephalia Drownyard how did you splash blue?

[ComplexPants]

For sideboard vs miracles what do we think of Liliana, the Last Hope?
For the people who tried Nephalia Drownyard how did you splash blue?

Thespian stage copies an Island or tundra. Drownyard is a slow play. I think last hope isn't what we are looking for against miracles. The removal is great against many other decks, but miracles doesn't play that many x/1 threats. It doesn't stop mentor, it doesn't create enough pressure to force their hand like Garruk does. That all being said test it out and see how she does. Her ultimate will end the game if they can't remove her.

[DNSolver]

I'm going to play the Legacy challenge on MTGO today. Trying a new sideboard that's less focused on beating combo and more focused on beating Miracles / Stoneblade:

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Karakas
3 Sylvan Library
2 Garruk Relentless

I cut Chalices altogether because the matchups I'm bringing in Chalice are pretty much just combo decks, and with less Storm in the meta I'm confident that my Surgicals + Libraries to find more discard / Surgicals will be sufficient. Against both kinds of Reanimator I will be a little worse off because of no Chalice, but with 4 Surgicals and the Libraries to dig for more of them I think I'll be fine.

Edit: Recent testing of the Miracles matchup with Dark Confidant / Library was fine but I think I would rather have Library. The Mentor plan is too aggressive for a late-game plan such as Drownyard / Factory to work. Eye of Ugin / Coffers *might* still be fast enough because you should win or force a Terminus as soon as you hit 15 mana. However, I'm going to try the 3 Library / 2 Garruk plan for the event because I tried Eye+Coffers at the GP and I never cast Emrakul. :(

Edit 2: This is not to say that the Drownyard or Factory won't work. If your opponent boards out Mentor and Entreat for some reason, you can get them with your own inevitability. However, in my experience Mentor stays in because Jace gets Vindicate'd by Vampire Hexmage.

I would love to stream the event, but I've moved back into college and I'm respecting the shared space of my dorm room. So I will record the matches this evening after the event when my roommate goes to a prerelease and upload them to Youtube tonight or tomorrow. I will post my results and a link to videos.

[Michael Keller]

So, I picked up an interest in this deck recently. I've been looking at various options out of the board, and one of the things that at this point is glaringly obvious is the deck's susceptibility to Surgical Extraction. I think at this point it's fairly ubiquitously known that a well-timed Surgical can do some serious damage to this deck.

Has anyone thought of or tried Petrified Field? Perhaps one in the main and one of the board for redundancy against Wastelands and Surgical? The card isn't out of place anyhow, because at the very worst it can act as an additional copy of your combo piece in the graveyard and retrievable with Crop Rotation in the face of a Surgical Extraction.

Thoughts?

[Negator77']

So, I picked up an interest in this deck recently. I've been looking at various options out of the board, and one of the things that at this point is glaringly obvious is the deck's susceptibility to Surgical Extraction. I think at this point it's fairly ubiquitously known that a well-timed Surgical can do some serious damage to this deck.

Has anyone thought of or tried Petrified Field? Perhaps one in the main and one of the board for redundancy against Wastelands and Surgical? The card isn't out of place anyhow, because at the very worst it can act as an additional copy of your combo piece in the graveyard and retrievable with Crop Rotation in the face of a Surgical Extraction.

Thoughts?

I considered that card a while back, but kind of discounted it as a little too slow and clunky. It's usually a minimum of two turns to get the combo back online since it soaks up your land drop. Colored mana sources are at a premium as it is in most versions and another colorless land slot comes with it's own issues unless you are cutting a non land for it. The Crop Rot example you mentioned plays through extraction anyway (putting a copy of the piece they are extracting into play) unless they also have another answer to the that particular attempt at the combo. Perhaps it's just some luck, but surgical hasn't been that big of a problem card in my experience.

[DNSolver]

Got 4th in the Legacy Challenge today.

Instead of a report, behold my replays!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJKWT4d8YX0&list=PL89Xvn6ryd0yjxrWrIrJUA7b5MfGiTSXH

Noteworthy matches are Round 4, Quarters, and Semis.

[hymnyou]

Great videos-If you're particularly worried about miracles, I think bob is better than Library for your SB. As far as removal goes library gets wrecked by wear and tear, they tend to hit needle and library. Bob makes them use up swords.

[Doneval]

Got 4th in the Legacy Challenge today.

Instead of a report, behold my replays!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJKWT4d8YX0&list=PL89Xvn6ryd0yjxrWrIrJUA7b5MfGiTSXH

Noteworthy matches are Round 4, Quarters, and Semis.

Congrats! I wish the videos were commented live, but I understand your set up isn't ideal.

One question: What made you decide to put the Expedition Maps back in? I thought you had cut most or all of them at one point. Or am I getting confused with someone else in this thread?

[TTX]

@DNSolver

Good vids, playing, and annotation pace. Keep 'em coming.
If you're interested in 12Post Decks to punish Miracles, may I suggest http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/27-09-16-ug-12-post/

[Lio]

Got 4th in the Legacy Challenge today.

Instead of a report, behold my replays!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJKWT4d8YX0&list=PL89Xvn6ryd0yjxrWrIrJUA7b5MfGiTSXH

Noteworthy matches are Round 4, Quarters, and Semis.

Hi, great videos! Actually I like replays more than regular stream because I can watch half of the videos during lunch break :).

One comment on R4: Your opponent deployed Counter+TOP and was tapped out and as you said, you will never resolve Pithing Needle. I think I would just bait Pithing needle, so he would activate Top, to clear a way for Vampire Hexmage. Or did you intend to use Pithing Needle as a bait for resolving Crop Rotation (if you would have drew it?).

[Doneval]

Hi, great videos! Actually I like replays more than regular stream because I can watch half of the videos during lunch break :).
There's definitely something to be said for that. However, in the replays you're missing a lot: mulligan decisions, sideboarding plans, and the exact thinking going on at crucial steps.

I find that watching a regular play video with the hand ready on the right arrow key to skip 5 seconds ahead during dull moments takes about as long and you get a lot more interesting information.

[Negator77']

Got 4th in the Legacy Challenge today.

Instead of a report, behold my replays!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJKWT4d8YX0&list=PL89Xvn6ryd0yjxrWrIrJUA7b5MfGiTSXH

Noteworthy matches are Round 4, Quarters, and Semis.

Congrats again and thanks for the videos! The spot in game one of the semis where your miracles opponent drew with top with his own fetch activation on the stack in response to your well timed Crop Rotation, you knew he found an answer (or that would have been an insane bluff). Waiting a turn or two to try and draw a piece of interaction was probably the play imo. You immediately drew crop (which could have stopped Venser from bouncing ML), but he found the force.... so it wouldn't have changed the outcome in this case though.

Depths really did well in this tourney. It took 3 of the top 10 spots, finishing 4th, 6th, and 10th.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/legacy-challenge-10373278#online

[ComplexPants]

Great job guys! They really need to figure out that Negator's "UGB" is really Depths


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Negator77']

Great job guys! They really need to figure out that Negator's "UGB" is really Depths


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ha! The 3 or more color version has been called so many things over the past two years. On Goldfish alone, It was HexDepths, then Turbo Depths before the faster BG version became a bigger thing, then Hexmage Depths, now unclassified.. In addition to the normal ones, it's also been called Rock lands and my personal least favorite courtesy of the SCG Open Series - Sultai Depths.

[Doneval]

What are everyone's thoughts on Living Wish and leaving 1 Vampire Hexmage and 1 Dark Depths in the sideboard? Lukas Marik played a list with 4 in some random Legacy tournament in Switzerland. Interesting to me, though he cut Into the North/Expedition Map for them.

http://gameplace.ch/gpevents/legacy-8-1-17/

I missed this earlier, but it's very interesting. I'd be very tempted, but at the same time I hate making the deck slower. By leaving one of each of your combo pieces in the sideboard, you'll have fewer games with a turn 2 Marit Lage. Whether it's worth it due to more consistency, it's hard to say. Maybe someone with more experience than me with this deck can pitch in?

[Djehuti]

I missed this earlier, but it's very interesting. I'd be very tempted, but at the same time I hate making the deck slower. By leaving one of each of your combo pieces in the sideboard, you'll have fewer games with a turn 2 Marit Lage. Whether it's worth it due to more consistency, it's hard to say. Maybe someone with more experience than me with this deck can pitch in?

Living wish is a recurring conversation on this forum that should be pinned somewhere in the primer. @apple713 may be able to give a more detailed answer on it (has answered this question more than once previously) but the conclusion of the living wish debate was usually that the speed of maxing out on combo mainboard outweighs the flexibility of living wish. The only reason i can see for still trying it is to gain some resiliency to surgical extraction since the current meta is saturated with them.

[ComplexPants]

After watching your videos DNSolver, I am really thinking that Winter Orb is what we want. Against D&T and Miracles, they want to grind out us, but Winter Orb makes that very difficult. Our costs are so low, and we have lot of free mana, so I think it might be something to consider. Sylvan library does win games, especially against non-miracles decks that play white and infect. But once Miracles gets their lock going, I don't think it is possible to come back, so a Garruk 4 drop just won't do it.

I like winter orb because it punishes top and plays like bouncing venser. It seemed good in theory at EW, although I only got it into play once and it was immediately abrupt decayed in a shardless match up.

[jdmdave]

Can't believe I missed the legacy challenge. Let's go for a clean sweep next time!

[ComplexPants]

Can't believe I missed the legacy challenge. Let's go for a clean sweep next time!

How often are they? Never played I one myself.

[Negator77']

How often are they? Never played I one myself.

Once a month, usually on the second Saturday of each month at 2PM est. 25 (or 250 pp) entry fee.

[Claymore]

What's the best strategy against Miracles? In my testing I haven't had luck in jamming the combo super early because they just always seem to have it, and then I'm staring at a Bayou + Land and ESG in hand against an active Top. In that case, it seems better to long and set up for a major turn of storming off with discard and Needles, with an EOT Lage - which gets Venser'd or Top-Swords anyway.

I mean, if we're gonna go the long game, fuck it, Worst Fears x 3.

[hovercraft]

What are everyone's thoughts on Living Wish and leaving 1 Vampire Hexmage and 1 Dark Depths in the sideboard? Lukas Marik played a list with 4 in some random Legacy tournament in Switzerland. Interesting to me, though he cut Into the North/Expedition Map for them.

http://gameplace.ch/gpevents/legacy-8-1-17/

.

I've been playing Loam depths with 4 living wish locally for 2 years and I love it. It doesn't really work as well in Turbo version, but I play a more controlling build so the slowness of the wish doesn't matter. I play mox diamond + chalice of the void(with no 1 drops myself), similar to Aggro Loam decks and use chalice, wasteland, hymn, Liliana, etc to hinder opponents while assembling the combo. I am always tweaking the flex spots, but the core of the deck performs very well against a good portion of the meta.

However, I have never played in any big events as there aren't any in my area and some decks I have never or rarely played against. Decks I remember having trouble with off hand are pure Lands(had a crazy game where we each had Marit Laige and a Maze of Ith on the board...), Miracles(long games,multiple answers to ML in StP, Jace, Terminus, etc) Imperial Painter(or any blood moon deck). I won a legacy 8 man with it last night, beating D&T 2-0 (won game 1 on a mull to 4 too), BR Reanimator 2-0 and drawing 1-1 with Miracles.

Here is my decklist on deckbox: https://deckbox.org/sets/781997


1 Barren Moor
3 Bayou
3 Dark Depths
2 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Tranquil Thicket
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Bind
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Life from the Loam
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Living Wish
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Mox Diamond
1 Sinkhole
2 Sylvan Library
1 Tombstalker
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Vampire Hexmage

Sideboard:

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dark Depths
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Maze of Ith
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sinkhole
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Tombstalker
1 Trinisphere
1 Vampire Hexmage