[Deck] Turbo Depths

[solnox]

Took Depths to a small GPT 17 people

4-0-1 First Seed

Easily beat Jund/Infect/Storm/Grixis Delver and drew with a friend on Infect

Lost my quarters to Loam Pox. He drew a perfect hymn and 3 crop rotos to beat my 2x NoTW +Scrying for Steppe

[cavalrywolfpack]

Hello all! I'm looking to buy into Legacy with this deck. I've done some testing on Cockatrice and I've really enjoyed it. However, my local metagame is obviously going to be very different to what you would see on Cockatrice. Here is my decklist, which is definitely on the Turbo Depths gameplan. My local metagame, as far as I know, consists of a lot of Rb Reanimator, Burn, and there is one Infect and one D&T. What I'm trying to figure out is if I should remove the "Turbo" part of the deck to include some answers. The deck is very fast, but I wonder how it will do against D&T, which is a terrible matchup. Thoughts?
3 Bayou (Read: Overgrown Tomb, because I'm poor)
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs (Probably going to be Windswept Heaths for the time being because I already own them. I'm trying to reach a playable 75 before optimizing it.)

8 CREATURES
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Vampire Hexmage

20 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Crop Rotation
2 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Into the North
3 Not of This World
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Thoughtseize

9 OTHER SPELLS
1 Expedition Map
4 Lotus Petal
4 Pithing Needle

SIDEBOARD
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Duress
1 Golgari Charm
1 Karakas
4 Rite of Consumption
2 Surgical Extraction

[DNSolver]

The Death and Taxes matchup will be more manageable with a few changes.

1) Cut Into the North for more Expedition Maps. This allows you to have an easier time finding Stage and Ghost Quarter in the matchup.

2) Get some Sylvan Library in the sideboard. Death and Taxes doesn't have very many ways of dealing with this card besides applying a clock, and if they Swords a token you can draw a lot of cards with it.

I like the Boseiju + Rite of Consumption in the board for Miracles. I would like to see some Sylvan Libraries as well to help assemble this plan ASAP (because otherwise you will be vulnerable to Mentor or especially Entreat out of the newer Predict builds that turbo out an Entreat. I went back to testing Rite of Consumption last night and beat Predict Miracles and Legends Miracles (will probably be making a video series).

My current sideboard online:
1 Boseiju
4 Rite of Consumption
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Sylvan Library
1 Pithing Needle
1 Karakas

[Thoughtsauce]

Hello all! I'm looking to buy into Legacy with this deck. I've done some testing on Cockatrice and I've really enjoyed it. However, my local metagame is obviously going to be very different to what you would see on Cockatrice. Here is my decklist, which is definitely on the Turbo Depths gameplan. My local metagame, as far as I know, consists of a lot of Rb Reanimator, Burn, and there is one Infect and one D&T. What I'm trying to figure out is if I should remove the "Turbo" part of the deck to include some answers. The deck is very fast, but I wonder how it will do against D&T, which is a terrible matchup. Thoughts?
3 Bayou (Read: Overgrown Tomb, because I'm poor)
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs (Probably going to be Windswept Heaths for the time being because I already own them. I'm trying to reach a playable 75 before optimizing it.)

8 CREATURES
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Vampire Hexmage

20 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Crop Rotation
2 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Into the North
3 Not of This World
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Thoughtseize

9 OTHER SPELLS
1 Expedition Map
4 Lotus Petal
4 Pithing Needle

SIDEBOARD
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Duress
1 Golgari Charm
1 Karakas
4 Rite of Consumption
2 Surgical Extraction

Welcome! Also, save even more money and avoid Submerge blowouts by playing Blooming Marshes over Tombs. This seems even more beneficial if you're in a burn-heavy meta. My deck is currently on 2 Verdants, 1 Bayou, 3 Blooming Marsh (1 Shizo instead of a 7th Dual source but it's probably getting cut) but I was on 4 Marsh 1 Verdant for quite a while and found it fine. Also I think you would benefit from going to 8 discard spells.

[adrieng]

Yeah I think rites of consumption +boseiju might be a very good plan for miracle ; also rite of consumption might be great against death and taxes if you can stall with something like dread of night
befre assembling the combo.

I need to test that plan.

[FZA]

The Death and Taxes matchup will be more manageable with a few changes.

1) Cut Into the North for more Expedition Maps. This allows you to have an easier time finding Stage and Ghost Quarter in the matchup.

2) Get some Sylvan Library in the sideboard. Death and Taxes doesn't have very many ways of dealing with this card besides applying a clock, and if they Swords a token you can draw a lot of cards with it.

I like the Boseiju + Rite of Consumption in the board for Miracles. I would like to see some Sylvan Libraries as well to help assemble this plan ASAP (because otherwise you will be vulnerable to Mentor or especially Entreat out of the newer Predict builds that turbo out an Entreat. I went back to testing Rite of Consumption last night and beat Predict Miracles and Legends Miracles (will probably be making a video series).

My current sideboard online:
1 Boseiju
4 Rite of Consumption
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Sylvan Library
1 Pithing Needle
1 Karakas

DNSolver wrecked me pretty hard yesterday with Rite of Consumption (I was the Predict Miracles player). Both game 2 and 3 I thought I was safe with a Swords in hand and Termnius floating on top, and then out of nowhere boom dead.

I do feel like Library is what really won both of those games, though.

Didn't realize that you were playing a full 4 of them. That seems like a solid sideboard plan though, last time I played this deck I was on the 4 Chalice plan, which never felt that great. Gonna give Rite a try! What other matchups do you bring it on for?

[cavalrywolfpack]

Thanks guys! I tried it out with a few tweeks and it feels a lot better!
-2 Bayou
-1 Verdant Catacombs
-2 Into the North
+3 Blooming Marsh
+1 IoK
In the sideboard, I went with the following changes
-2 Abrupt Decay
+2 Sylvan Library
I might try to squeeze a third into there somehow. Thoughts?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[DNSolver]

Golgari Charm and Duress in the sideboard are weaker than Abrupt Decay, which can deal with Counterbalance / Blood Moon / Mentor out of Miracles (while being uncounterable), kill a clock out of Delver, or kill creatures out of Death and Taxes.

[solnox]

I used to be a huge proponent of blooming marsh until the CITP clause lost me quite a large number of games. I'm down to 2 now. I'll try out this rite of consumption nonsense :)

[AmokPL]

My deck is currently on 2 Verdants, 1 Bayou, 3 Blooming Marsh

same here and it feels smooth and solid (used to play 3 Bayous and no Marshes).

regarding Rite of Consumption - what is the line of play as it is a sorcery so no reactive play? I assume you make a token, keep prio and throw it at their face straight after using the might of Boseiju?

[DNSolver]

That's the general plan. However, sometimes on Sylvan Library openings I get to a point where I've grinded them down quite a bit, and then just Thoughtseize -> make token -> Rites without needing Boseiju. Be aware that in order to beat all removal with this plan, you will have to make the token in your main phase.

SB:
+4 Sylvan Library
+4 Rite of Consumption
+1 Boseiju
+1 Pithing Needle
+4 Abrupt Decay
-8 fast mana
-3 Not of This World (Rite is better, you will have time to make land drops)
-2 Crop Rotation (I like the flexibility of being able to get Steppe, Bog, a combo land, or Boseiju, so 2 stay in)
-1 Dark Depths (don't need multiples of a legendary land.

This turns your whole deck into a pile of Top hate, Decays/discard, an uncounterable win condition, and ways to find the win condition.

[hovercraft]

Do you ever find 4 Library too much? I usually play 2 max. I guess it makes you more resilient to Abrupt Decay and helps guarantee you draw one when you want it.

I play my 2 maindeck as I don't see many matchups where you don't want them.

[DNSolver]

I am happy with my maindeck configuration right now. Against Miracles, I always want to be able to play one on turn 2 after a discard spell or Needle (that might get countered), and having a second one is fine because you can replace it after it gets hit by Wear/Tear. Against Death and Taxes, it's the first card I look for in my opening hand, followed by Needles and Decays.

[Motto82]

DNSolver wrecked me pretty hard yesterday with Rite of Consumption (I was the Predict Miracles player). Both game 2 and 3 I thought I was safe with a Swords in hand and Termnius floating on top, and then out of nowhere boom dead.

I do feel like Library is what really won both of those games, though.

Didn't realize that you were playing a full 4 of them. That seems like a solid sideboard plan though, last time I played this deck I was on the 4 Chalice plan, which never felt that great. Gonna give Rite a try! What other matchups do you bring it on for?

I am clearly missing something here, but how is sorcery speed Rites good versus instant Miracle or instant Plow? Happy to learn more :)

[adrieng]

I am clearly missing something here, but how is sorcery speed Rites good versus instant Miracle or instant Plow? Happy to learn more :)

You make the token and hold priority as you are the active player, and just cast rites with boseiju ftw. They can't plow the token/karakas bounce in responce cause sac it is part of the cost of consumpiton.

[hovercraft]

I am happy with my maindeck configuration right now. Against Miracles, I always want to be able to play one on turn 2 after a discard spell or Needle (that might get countered), and having a second one is fine because you can replace it after it gets hit by Wear/Tear. Against Death and Taxes, it's the first card I look for in my opening hand, followed by Needles and Decays.

What is your current mainboard? Thanks for sharing! I definitely need to get a Boseiju and some Rites to try out as well.

Off topic, but man the foil BFZ Sylvan Scrying is beautiful. Still super cheap too.

[DNSolver]

Current mainboard:

8 fast mana
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Expedition Map
3 Not of This World
3 Pithing Needle
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg
4 Verdant
2 Bayou
1 Blooming Marsh / Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 GQ

[solnox]

Any reason why we don't play Grafdigger's Cage?

I've also been trying Fatal Push and want to try Collective Brutality.

[caseyc]

Any reason why we don't play Grafdigger's Cage?

I've also been trying Fatal Push and want to try Collective Brutality.

I run a Grafdigger's Cage in my SB for Elves, Reanimator, and Dredge--along with 2 Faerie Macabre for the graveyard decks. So far it's been really good for just crushing Reanimator, which can be a little bit of a coin flippy match-up otherwise.

[adrieng]

Maybe it is a dumb question but why not playing rite of consumption maindeck instead of not of this world with a random boseiju ?
Rite is very good against miracle with boseiju and correct against death and taxes it can steal games

[caseyc]

What is your current mainboard? Thanks for sharing! I definitely need to get a Boseiju and some Rites to try out as well.

Off topic, but man the foil BFZ Sylvan Scrying is beautiful. Still super cheap too.

Following your off-topic comment regarding the Sylvan Scryings.... has anyone here put effort into pimping out their Turbo Depths deck? What direction did you go with some of the cards? I just did some cursory looking around and it seems like many of the cards we play don't have cool pimp versions, with some exceptions. And the foil Crop Rotations are ridiculously priced :-/

[solnox]

I'm 7 cards short of finishing I believe the mb :)

[ottomanottoman]

Following your off-topic comment regarding the Sylvan Scryings.... has anyone here put effort into pimping out their Turbo Depths deck? What direction did you go with some of the cards? I just did some cursory looking around and it seems like many of the cards we play don't have cool pimp versions, with some exceptions. And the foil Crop Rotations are ridiculously priced :-/

If you're into foreign cards then you can pimp it that way. I'm not fond of foils so I'm currently in the process of nonfoil Japanese-ing out my Turbo Depths deck.

[Thoughtsauce]

If you're into foreign cards then you can pimp it that way. I'm not fond of foils so I'm currently in the process of nonfoil Japanese-ing out my Turbo Depths deck.


My goal is to get to an all German deck since it's a sweet FBB language but I haven't checked if all cards were printed in it yet.

[solnox]

My goal is to get to an all German deck since it's a sweet FBB language but I haven't checked if all cards were printed in it yet.


Yea German is great.

I've chosen to go with German Elvish Spirit Guides. I actually have most of the deck in nonfoil German and English Foil lol.... Dunkle Tiefens and Theaterbuhnes

[adrieng]

@Apple716

Could you update the primer with the following list for myself :

I have tested a little the rite of consumption stuff and I can say that it works.
My list with the three maindeck library and decay has a good g1 against miracle because they have nothing in g1 to answers needle and library (expet maybe one off),
after side you cut the duress and one crop one ghost quarter (depends if you expect karakas+clique) for consuming boseiju and one library and it is overall a good mathcup.

I have done 5-6 matches with the followig configuration on mtgo and i lost only one.

Against death and taxes dread of night is clearly the best answer with maze+thespian copy and consuming face.
G1 is hard but after side it gets lot better.
I have given up against blood moon I have found that fetching both swamp and forest is really too slow and those basics lands weaken lot of hands and makes you more mulliganing,
so for now I scoop to blood moon or just need the decay in hand+mana.

I have tested also a little nissa vital force which is a really good card against miracle but the consuming stuff is better for now ; I have also tested hymn in the maindeck in the place of sylvan scrying but scrying is better imo,
except against storm maybe.



// 60 Maindeck
// 8 Artifact
4 Expedition Map
4 Pithing Needle

// 4 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage

// 3 Enchantment
3 Sylvan Library

// 7 Instant
4 Crop Rotation
3 Abrupt Decay

// 23 Land
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Blooming Marsh
3 Khalni Garden
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Maze of Ith
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe

// 15 Sorcery
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Sylvan Scrying


// 15 Sideboard
// 4 Enchantment
SB: 3 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Sylvan Library

// 3 Instant
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction

// 3 Land
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

// 5 Sorcery
SB: 4 Rite of Consumption
SB: 1 Hymn to Tourach

[Negator77']

@Apple716

I have done 5-6 matches with the followig configuration on mtgo and i lost only one.

I have given up against blood moon I have found that fetching both swamp and forest is really too slow and those basics lands weaken lot of hands and makes you more mulliganing,
so for now I scoop to blood moon or just need the decay in hand+mana.

[/CARDS]

What is your mtgo user name? If we're ever on at the same time, I'd be game for testing whatever match-ups you want against your configuration.

Switching to a Decay/Grip split is the answer there for more resiliency against Blood Moon. Obviously Decay hits things that Grip doesn't, but Grip only requires one green source to get you out of it. It is also pure gas against Top since you don't need to catch them on a shuffle for max effect which can be awkward at times. I've been on the 2/2 split of Decay/Grip for a long time and really like it.

[solnox]

Just came back from another GPT. Top 8'd as First Seed again and lost Round 1 again. Feelsbadman

My current list.

Lands (24)

8 Combo Lands
3 Urborg
2 Bayou
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Blooming Marsh
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Mishra's Factory

Creatures (8)
4 Vamp Hexmage
4 ESG

Artifact (8)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Pithing Needle

Enchantment (2)
2 Sylvan Library

Instant (7)

4 Crop Rotation
3 Not of this World

Sorcery (11)

4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
4 Sylvan Scrying


SB

1 Fatal Push
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Karakas
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
1 Dread of Night


R1: RUG Lands

G1: I win the roll and manage to get him with the combo after he tries to Ghost me with ESG Crop roto

G2: He ee's my double needle but taps out and plays a dark depths. I play stage and copy his depths and have 2x NOTW. He rotos for chasm but I manage to find a fast mana to scrying for Ghost Quarter

R2: Goblins

G1: I manage to roto for lage to block a lethal Piledriver and kill him on the crackback.

G2: I Combo off easily with 3x needle and NOTW


R3: Legends Miracles

G1: I have a library and 2x needles. I get down to 1 life off snapcaster mage before I try to go for it. I manage to beat his singleton plow with roto for Steppe and have NoTW.

G2: I strip a humilty from him and he draws lands. He rips karakas but I just roto for GQ and kill it and make lage with Hexmage


R4: Draw with Show and Tell

R5: Draw with Miracles


Top 8.

Qtrs vs Goblins again

G1: I have 2x roto to win.

G2: He rips matron to find settler to end my dreams.

G3: Same case as above. If I draw a green source in the first 5 turns, i easily win. Doesnt happen.


The room was fairly combo heavy. 9/18 of the field were combo decks and the rest were Miracles/Bug/Lands decks with a smattering of DnT/Delver.

[adrieng]

my user name is sun31 on mtgo ; but I haven't done any league for a long time just some comp testing ;
I'll be happy to test against you negator ; I also don't have the dread of night in side and the blooming marsh are for now mana confluence (don't own them on mtgo )

[cavalrywolfpack]

Out of curiosity, how is our Aluren matchup? I saw it at FNM (wasn't able to play Legacy, sadly. One day I'll finish this deck!). My meta evolved quite a bit. There's MUD, some Reanimator, D&T (yay...), a Predict Miracles (double yay!) who also own OmniTell, a bunch of Nic Fit (I imagine this is a good matchup), Elves, some Burn, RUG Delver, Infect (how is this matchup?), the aforementioned Aluren player, Goblins, and I believe Reid Duke's Leovold BUG.

While the obvious solution is to convince everyone that Shardless BUG is the only way to play Legacy, this seems like a decent meta for Turbo Depths. Plenty of even matchups, and a few scattered bad ones, but I think Depths is fine here.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[caseyc]

I went 2-3 at a GPT yesterday. The meta was pretty weird, only 12 players. 3-4x DnT, a bunch of BUG decks, a BUG Lands deck, RUG Delver.

My list is here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=112171

Except I swapped the Lost Legacy out of the sideboard and replaced it with Steely Resolve, as I walked in the room and saw multiple people shuffling up DnT.

Round 1: RUG Delver

G1: I win quickly. G2: he is able to foil me with a lot of counter magic/wastelands and me probably keeping a weak hand. G3: A longer game, we get into a standoff--I have Marit Lage, and he has a flipped Delver and a 5/6 Goyf, and I'm at 8 life. We playt draw go for a bit and then I rip Funeral Charm! Giving my token swampwalk with an Urborg in play and swing for the win.

Round 2: True Name BUG
G1: I win on turn 3. Interestingly, I turn 1 pithing needle...and I watch him walk himself through thinking about whether to counter it by deciding he doesn't care about anythign I could possibly name. I name Wasteland. G2: I go for it quickly and am met with a Diabolic Edict. I can't quite recover. I still don't see a wasteland. G3: I assemble the combo and pass turn, ready to make token on his end step. He drops Wasteland! I was dumbfounded. Apparently he runs it as a 2-of, but game one didn't seem to think it was a problem for me to needle it. So it took me very by surprise. I go for it anyways, as I have another Depths in hand. He knows how to 2-for-1 with the Wasteland unfortunately. I assemble the combo again, he has 2 cards in hand. I Funeral Charm, he discards a Diabolic Edict. I got for it (as he has lethal on board). He has another Diabolic Edict. I lose :-/ Unfortunate, as this is a great matchup for us.

Round 3: Shardless BUG (my friend I drove with)
G1: turn 3 win. G2: He is able to disrupt me and win with a big Goyf. G3: I am able to kill him the turn before he kills me. A bit bittersweet, as he is now out of contention, but a draw would've put us both in a bad spot.

Round 4: I am sitting 2-1, and sit down across from DnT.

G1: I am somehow killed by a Mirran Crusader wearing a Batterskull. He had Wasteland, Karakas, and I couldn't quite make my token. G2: At some poitn he drops Thalia and I am land-light so I decide to play out my Sejiri Steppe so I have extra mana. This ends up costing me the win. DnT continues to be my worst matchup.

Round 5: I am now 2-2, and my opponent is 3-1 having to play a pairdown. I sign the slip 0-2 before we start. He is also on DnT and I manage to get game 1 because he had a bizarre assemblage of cards. Then he gets the next two games.

Overall, a little disappointing. But as soon as I saw 3+ DnT players were in the room, I knew it was unlikely to be my day to get byes. Everyone was very nice and most of the games were pretty close and good. The only major mistake I think I made was playing out Sejiri steppe. I'm considering taking the Chalices out of my board to have more stuff for the DnT matchup, as Chalice doesn't seem good in that many matchups right now.

[filln]

Tried out 4x Rite of Consumption in my sideboard at my local weekly. Didn't face any Miracles or D&T to test it out but I did bring it in against Lands. Won Game 2 and Game 3 with it and it definitely worked a lot better than I expected. I like that it dodges Maze of Ith and Karakas, leaving our Pithing Needles to focus on Wasteland and Ghost Quarter. Also helped avoid a potential standstill where we both have avatars out. One word of caution though is to watch out for Glacial Chasm, since Rite deals damage and isn't a loss of life.

[solnox]

@apple.

How's that mana base treating you? I'm a fan of therapy/git probe but not a fan of map and 3 library without fetches. with 4 Urborg, does it get awkward?

The 3x Khalni Garden also felt pretty bad.,

[solnox]

Just ran through a league with git probe/therapy

went 4-1.

Beat RB Reanimator, Eldrazi, Bug Delver, Grixis Delver,

Lose to Miracles- mulled to 5 every game. never see lands lol

Notes- 3 Khalni Garden was way too many for me. it would ruin hands and I will be going down to 2. Expedition Map felt meh but that may be due to my bias against it in my traditional list.

Maze of Ith as insane.

There was this gem vs Grixis Delver

http://imgur.com/a/91ZGV

[Negator77']

Just ran through a league with git probe/therapy

There was this gem vs Grixis Delver

http://imgur.com/a/91ZGV

That stack is amusing, even if totally unnecessary since he had the bolt the whole time. I think I caught the last game or so of your match (non match) vs Miracles on their stream. Was it vs one of the metagameguru guys?

Has some unexpected free time in the past two weeks or so and was able to get three leagues in and play in the community league quarterly event. I took one loss in the top 4 of the quarterly and went 14-1 in the leagues. Match-ups were Miracles x3, Burn x2, Belcher, TNN BUG, Sneak & Show x2, Elves, Dredge, BUG Delver, Grixis Delver, Aluren, UR Delver, Junk, Standstill, Storm x2, and Death & Taxes. The two losses were to Miracles in league play and Junk in the community quarterly. A second depths deck went 5-0 on one of those days, but the results didn't show up on goldfish for whatever reason... just the wotc website. The BG version ran the 4 Rite of Consumption + Boseiju + 4 Sylvan Library plan in the sideboard. I'd be curious to hear whether the plan helped. http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-04-03

[solnox]

If it was the guy who had nothing but Bars for his name thats him. I did lose yesterday to one of the metagameguru guys.

Who are they?

[Negator77']

If it was the guy who had nothing but Bars for his name thats him. I did lose yesterday to one of the metagameguru guys.

Who are they?

That's funny, my loss in the leagues was also to lllllll or whatever their user name is. DNSolver beat him/her on a mull to 3 the other day on his stream. It was hysterical.

A team of that mainly plays in the SCG series I think. Just saw legacy on twitch and tuned in. He was prepping for the SCG legacy on Saturday.

[MDHackbert]

Negator,

I have been practicing your HexDepths with the BS and Diamonds for a couple months now. I am still at a loss for how to approach the Miracles matchup. I know there are tools for the MU post-board in surgical, stifle, and flusterstorm, but it still feels very bad.

I was thinking of trying a Volrath's Stronghold over Urborg #4 with some # of Ballista in the side (cutting surgical 4 and fluster 3?). What have you tried against them that doesn't lose equity against other bits of the field?

I also do not relish the combo MUs either.

[solnox]

That's funny, my loss in the leagues was also to lllllll or whatever their user name is. DNSolver beat him/her on a mull to 3 the other day on his stream. It was hysterical.

A team of that mainly plays in the SCG series I think. Just saw legacy on twitch and tuned in. He was prepping for the SCG legacy on Saturday.


I watched his stream. I just needed to draw rite of consumption and he was just straight dead

[Motto82]

Following your off-topic comment regarding the Sylvan Scryings.... has anyone here put effort into pimping out their Turbo Depths deck? What direction did you go with some of the cards? I just did some cursory looking around and it seems like many of the cards we play don't have cool pimp versions, with some exceptions. And the foil Crop Rotations are ridiculously priced :-/

I am close to finishing the mainboard.
Some may not think it is pimp enough but I am extremely satisfied with where I am at, at the moment. All cards are in English. I just hate it when play is being stopped because people are unable to read a card.
Vampire Hexmage - Zendikar setfoil
Crop Rotation - setfoil. I am missing 2 foil copies still. They are indeed ridiculously overpriced.
Not of This World - setfoil
Duress - Arena League promo's
Sylvan Scrying - setfoil
Thoughtseize - Theros setfoil. Lorwyn setfoils are also incredibly expensive. Maybe one day.
Into the North - setfoil
Expedition Map - Zendikar setfoil
Lotus Petal - Masterpiece foils
Pithing Needle - M10 foils. Picked these up before the Masterpieces were printed. Looking to replace them with Masterpieces one day.
Sylvan Library - Eternal Masters foil
Bojuka Bog - setfoil
Dark Depths - From the Vault Lore foils. Again, original setfoil is killing my account.
Ghost Quarter - Innistrad foil. Enjoy the art better than the Dissension version.
Sejiri Steppe - Worldwake foil
Snow-Covered Forest - Coldsnap foil
Snow-Covered Swamp - Coldsnap foil
Thespian's Stage - Gatecrash foils
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth - FTV Realms foil
Verdant Catacombs - Expeditions foil

Apart from this I own some foils for the sideboard and / or tweaks:
Karakas - Eternal Masters foil
Nissa, Vital Force - Prerelease promo
Abrupt Decay -WMCQ promo
Surgical Extraction - Modern Masters 2 foils
Toxic Deluge - Eternal Masters foil
Maze of Ith - Eternal Masters foil
Dryad Arbor - FTV Realms foil
Nephalia Drownyard - Innistrad foil
Crucible of Worlds - Masterpiece foil
Inquisition of Kozilek - Conpsiracy foil

Coldsnap foil Marit Lage token

Future purchases:
FBB Bayou's. Haven't decided on language yet. (Shouldn't be an issue on foreign language here, they tap for black or green mana ^_^)
Last 2 copies of foil Crop Rotations.
Masterpieces of Pithing Needle and Sphere of Resistance
Prerelease promo Walking Ballista's (if this tech really kicks off)
Foil Volrath's Stronghold (see Walking Ballista comment)

Also want my Elvish Spirit Guides signed or altered. Or just really hope they'll be reprinted as a foil someday.

[filln]

Foil Volrath's Stronghold (see Walking Ballista comment)

Those don't exist, do they?

I'm about midway through Japanese Foil on Turbo Depths, will try to post an update picture later this week.

[caseyc]

I am close to finishing the mainboard.
Some may not think it is pimp enough but I am extremely satisfied with where I am at, at the moment. All cards are in English. I just hate it when play is being stopped because people are unable to read a card.
Vampire Hexmage - Zendikar setfoil
Crop Rotation - setfoil. I am missing 2 foil copies still. They are indeed ridiculously overpriced.
Not of This World - setfoil
Duress - Arena League promo's
Sylvan Scrying - setfoil
Thoughtseize - Theros setfoil. Lorwyn setfoils are also incredibly expensive. Maybe one day.
Into the North - setfoil
Expedition Map - Zendikar setfoil
Lotus Petal - Masterpiece foils
Pithing Needle - M10 foils. Picked these up before the Masterpieces were printed. Looking to replace them with Masterpieces one day.
Sylvan Library - Eternal Masters foil
Bojuka Bog - setfoil
Dark Depths - From the Vault Lore foils. Again, original setfoil is killing my account.
Ghost Quarter - Innistrad foil. Enjoy the art better than the Dissension version.
Sejiri Steppe - Worldwake foil
Snow-Covered Forest - Coldsnap foil
Snow-Covered Swamp - Coldsnap foil
Thespian's Stage - Gatecrash foils
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth - FTV Realms foil
Verdant Catacombs - Expeditions foil

Apart from this I own some foils for the sideboard and / or tweaks:
Karakas - Eternal Masters foil
Nissa, Vital Force - Prerelease promo
Abrupt Decay -WMCQ promo
Surgical Extraction - Modern Masters 2 foils
Toxic Deluge - Eternal Masters foil
Maze of Ith - Eternal Masters foil
Dryad Arbor - FTV Realms foil
Nephalia Drownyard - Innistrad foil
Crucible of Worlds - Masterpiece foil
Inquisition of Kozilek - Conpsiracy foil

Coldsnap foil Marit Lage token

Future purchases:
FBB Bayou's. Haven't decided on language yet. (Shouldn't be an issue on foreign language here, they tap for black or green mana ^_^)
Last 2 copies of foil Crop Rotations.
Masterpieces of Pithing Needle and Sphere of Resistance
Prerelease promo Walking Ballista's (if this tech really kicks off)
Foil Volrath's Stronghold (see Walking Ballista comment)

Also want my Elvish Spirit Guides signed or altered. Or just really hope they'll be reprinted as a foil someday.

I think I may mostly go the alter route :-) I just commissioned a two card panorama of Snow-Covered Swamp and Snow-Covered Forest from Marta Molina (check her stuff out on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pg/martamolinaartist/photos/?ref=page_internal).

[chaosjace]

I have a full english deck, 0 foils, my buddy even got me a Marit Lage token by RK post, non foil. Everything is LP-NM. Black border only.

[hovercraft]

I have a full english deck, 0 foils, my buddy even got me a Marit Lage token by RK post, non foil. Everything is LP-NM. Black border only.

I also use the RK post token, love his work. I use his Goblin and Elemental tokes too, when I play an Empty the Warrens or Young Pyro deck.

[Thoughtsauce]

I tend to take Japanese decks in any format with a grain of salt as their metas tend to be quite different from our own, but this list T8'd recently. Thoughts?

8Th Place Player Name: Okawa Hiroshi Deck Name: Dark Depth

Main
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Crop Rotation
3 Duress
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
4 Dark Depths
3 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Wasteland
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Forest

Side
3 Krosan Grip
3 Not Of This World
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
2 Extirpate
1 Sylvan Library

[Negator77']

Negator,

I have been practicing your HexDepths with the BS and Diamonds for a couple months now. I am still at a loss for how to approach the Miracles matchup. I know there are tools for the MU post-board in surgical, stifle, and flusterstorm, but it still feels very bad.

I was thinking of trying a Volrath's Stronghold over Urborg #4 with some # of Ballista in the side (cutting surgical 4 and fluster 3?). What have you tried against them that doesn't lose equity against other bits of the field?

I also do not relish the combo MUs either.

How are you currently boarding against Miracles? It really depends on which version you are against and how you expect them to board. I'm flexible in that I currently board in anywhere from 8-13 cards depending on what I expect from them.... More spells like From The Ashes, additional counters, and Surgical while trimming on Counterbalance? Add the flusters. Karakas/Legends, add the Ghost Quarter. The only cards that come in no matter what are the extra Needles, the Grips, Decay, and Stifle. If you are looking for more widely applicable cards that are good against Miracles, add Sylvan Libraries.

I haven't tested the Ballista plan outside of running the Miracles side against DNSolver testing it for a few matches. It didn't feel particularly threatening from the Miracles side. It's on the slow side and feels like if entreat ever shows up the game is over on the spot. I didn't even board in extractions which some Miracles players are doing against Depths which makes that plan even worse. From the little I've seen of it, the Rite of Consumption plan has shown more promise... although not without its own set of issues.

What combo match-ups are you struggling with and how are you boarding against them? I've never been sad to get paired against any combo deck and find most of them to be favorable match-ups.

[MDHackbert]

I seem to lose pretty hardcore to S&T variants. They often put the pieces together faster than me most of the time. Maybe they are just drawing hot.

Storm has been coin-flippy. I liked the MU better when i played turbo and had chalices in addition to the surgicals. In this version i have found that when they go off the turn before they would die, they always have oodles of duress and/or therapy to strip surgicals, stifle or flusters so i can't disrupt them.

I've been boarding for Miracles more or less like you've indicated, and my guess is that my personal psychology is probably just exaggerating how bad the matchup actually is or isn't.

Sent from mobile.

[cavalrywolfpack]

I have a full english deck, 0 foils, my buddy even got me a Marit Lage token by RK post, non foil. Everything is LP-NM. Black border only.
What, no white border basics? C'mon, that's where the true pimp is at!

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[solnox]

The most tilting part of my list :)

http://imgur.com/a/7jSFo

[ottomanottoman]

The most tilting part of my list :)

http://imgur.com/a/7jSFo

How did that happen? Is that the result of "white bordering" a foil or is it a missprint? Never seen something like that before.

[solnox]

It was a super beat HP one with bad borders so I had my friend Acetone it.

5 whole dollars

[chaosjace]

What, no white border basics? C'mon, that's where the true pimp is at!

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

nah man, that doesn't appeal to my pimpage. I will also enjoy my deck never curling up

[solnox]

If you put silica packets in your deck boxes with foils and fit them with hard fits, they don't really curl.

[filln]

Here's my work-in-progress Japanese foil deck: http://imgur.com/a/i5T4l

The discard suite is still pretty sad looking, unfortunately. The token I commissioned from RK Post. I know foreign language and foils aren't always popular, but I enjoy the challenge of seeking out the pieces.

[Sparkii]

Here's my work-in-progress Japanese foil deck: http://imgur.com/a/i5T4l

The discard suite is still pretty sad looking, unfortunately. The token I commissioned from RK Post. I know foreign language and foils aren't always popular, but I enjoy the challenge of seeking out the pieces.

I've got a JPN foil Needle if you're interested. ;)

[solnox]

Your lands are amazing.

[filln]

I've got a JPN foil Needle if you're interested. ;)

Sure am! PM'ed ya. :)


Your lands are amazing.

Thanks! My main project is RG Lands for Japanese foil, so many of the cards carried over nicely. I also just realized I forgot my 60th main card, which is Ghost Quarter. I uploaded that one to the Imgur album as well since it's one of my favorites!

[solnox]

Just 5-2'd the Legacy Challenge missing out of Top 8 at 9th place. RIP

[solnox]

I'm going to try to do a recording of my matches and go over my decklist that I played. Basically Adrien's Probe Therapy but with a more traditional mana base of fetches and minimal khalni garden. 3 CITP lands is an insane amount already and I feel that even going down to 1 Garden is fine.

[solnox]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/612794#paper

Played at a 3rd GPT this weekend with my Probe list today

Went 3-1-1 draw into the top 8. 28 players

R1: RB Reanimator

G1: RB things happen

G2: My opener is hexmage, roto, GB land, Depths, 2x Surgical, Needle. Surgical Griseldads and easily win with the t2 combo

G3: I keep a shit 6 of Hexmage, 2x Therapy, Seize, Karakas, Crop Rotation. Scry Maze. Yolo. My opponent stronghold gambits T1 and I put in Hexmage while he puts in Grisel. Hexmage>Grisel. I follow up with a Maze and when he reanimates Griselbrand, he's at 8. I play KArakas bounce and beat with hexmage until he concedes. Better lucky than good

R2: Sneak and Show

G1: He rips brainstorm into Show/Tomb/Emrakul while hand is full of deltas. Im 1 turn slow

G2: I needle everything and make a lage.

G3: He gets a sneak attack and I cant find another needle. I die.


R3: Moon Stompy

G1: T1 Chalice, t2 Moon nough said

G2: I seize his moon and he cant find another 1 before I land a Marit Lage. He has bridge and I find decay off library in time to kill him.

G3: He mulls to 6 and thinks. I have the choice to either fetch swamp seize or hold up fetch.get forest to sylvan scrying for black mana. I choose to wait and He has a T2 Moon. I fetch for forest and get a swamp with scrying and then depths. I Golgari Charm his moon and play hexmage with urborg/depths. He lands 2x Bridge and now I'm forced to find 2x decay. I kill a chandra with a 2nd hexmage and land a library. He finds 2 more chalices and a PK for chumps. I have library going for a bit while he puts down another moon. I have a Decay but cant find anotehr 1. I eventually get a Rite of Consumption, Decay his Chalice on 2 and Fling marit lage for the win.

R4: UB Reanimator

G1: I lose to a fast Griselbrand

G2: I seize him and he durdles before I make lage to win.

G3: He mulls to 5 and I have the combo+Karakas in hand. I seize him and his hand is nothing but mana. I land the combo and he dies.

R5: Draw with Eldrazi

Quarters: Sneak and Show

G1: I needle his sneak and then make a marit lage.

G2: He lands moon through a sphere of Resistance and I dont have decay mana

G3: He has a T1 Show and Tell. I punt by not naming Show with therapy. and I lose

I think the deck wants more fast mana and colored sources as I had a lot of issues with keepable hands with enough mana.

I've so far constructed a hybrid list with both the package+Fast mana

[Motto82]

Just 5-2'd the Legacy Challenge missing out of Top 8 at 9th place. RIP

This is you right? http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=112756

There's some interesting choices in the list. Tarbernacle main over 4th fetch. And no PB Karakas.
What were your matchups and how did you feel about your deck and play choices?

[Thoughtsauce]

Won Sunday Legacy at my shop yesterday. 13 people, 4 rounds.

Rd 1: bye (yeet)

Rd 2: BUG Standstill. Game 3 he crucially mis-taps for a Decay and I'm able to combo in response.

Rd 3: Omni-Sneak. He Surgicals me G1 off a Wish but my discard was too much for games 2 and 3. I still don't know enough about the format to understand Wish boards and what to play around.

Rd 4: I offer the draw to my opp but he's on 6 match points and needs the win to do better than 4th or 5th place. He gets crushed in 2 games (mull to 4, then a decent hand that gets picked apart by discard and never finds combo answer. I stole a critical Trinket Mage from his hand.)

[hovercraft]

Solnox, how do you find the Steely Resolve?

[solnox]

Nope. I play in the sf bay area. You can find me playing turbo depths all the time there. Also have some game play on our weekly legacy paper stream

[solnox]

On steely resolve, I had it in my board for a while but I think that rite of consumption is just better vs miracles, dnt, lands. Being able to immediately go for it instead of having it maybe get removed is great

[Negator77']

Also 5-2'd the challenge, then followed it up with a 5-0 tonight. Interesting moments included playing vs Jarvis Yu on Bomberman of all things and winning through the following hand from red moon/Sneak: Spirit Guide, Spirit Guide, Ancient Tomb, Inferno Titan, Moon, Moon, Moon. Mox + EOT Krosan Grip works wonders with discard once you untap.


I seem to lose pretty hardcore to S&T variants. They often put the pieces together faster than me most of the time. Maybe they are just drawing hot.

Storm has been coin-flippy. I liked the MU better when i played turbo and had chalices in addition to the surgicals. In this version i have found that when they go off the turn before they would die, they always have oodles of duress and/or therapy to strip surgicals, stifle or flusters so i can't disrupt them.

I've been boarding for Miracles more or less like you've indicated, and my guess is that my personal psychology is probably just exaggerating how bad the matchup actually is or isn't.

Sent from mobile.

Storm has been favorable in my experience. The main way I've lost to it is if they hide/protect or just draw Ad Nauseam. It sounds like you are just hitting a bit of lousy variance.

Show and Tell is interesting because you have tools to fight everything, but some of them are a little narrow. I don't bother to fight Blood Moon with Decays, just leave them in the SB. Threatening the combo as early as possible, Grips, and discard are the plan there. It sucks, but diluting too much to fight a 2 of that you can sometimes get under isn't worth it imo. Grips are way better since they also are good enough to fight sneak at times. I've come back and won even after taking an Emrakul hit/trigger due to gripping Sneak. Needle fights Gris and Sneak Attack. Fluster fights Show and Tell and co. Karakas is decent. I'm not big on surgical against them anymore. Back in the Omni-tell era, it was amazing, but you are only hitting half of their combo at best with them now. One fun trick if you have a soft hand is to just drop a Depths on t1 and dare them to cast Show and Tell. If they have Omni or a t1/t2 moon, you lose, but sometimes they will have an Emrakul and have to decide whether or not you have Hexmage.

Miracles isn't something you want to play every round by any means, but it does get better with experience. Part of it is getting past the helpless feeling that you can end up with if they take control, especially in game 1's, and getting better at spotting windows to steal games. When to fire off discard/hold it back and when to go for the combo/leave it up as a threat are often close decisions that people get better at as they feel their way through the mu.

[solnox]

That hopeless feeling of Miracles always having it makes me full of salt and it shows sometimes through chat. I feel bad afterwards but that feeling of never having any sense of agency really makes me angry.

[epicthings]

Following your off-topic comment regarding the Sylvan Scryings.... has anyone here put effort into pimping out their Turbo Depths deck? What direction did you go with some of the cards? I just did some cursory looking around and it seems like many of the cards we play don't have cool pimp versions, with some exceptions. And the foil Crop Rotations are ridiculously priced :-/

I considered doing all German as ESG is kinda the bench mark in what you can do in regards to language or foil. I decided to get my entire deck signed by the artists instead. It's definitely a bit of a project, but it's fun tracking down signed cards or finding the artists to sign my cards.

[WorstBandNameEver]

I was wondering why folks are playing Blooming Marsh? I feel like that was a development when I was not playing for a few months.

Also, has anyone tried tireless tracker out if they are playing the slower versions? What about any living wish lists? Just interested as I have been messing around with both on MTGO lately.

I went 4-0 in a local event for eternal masters pack last weekend. Played a slower list with dark confidants and such.

[filln]

I was wondering why folks are playing Blooming Marsh? I feel like that was a development when I was not playing for a few months.

Also, has anyone tried tireless tracker out if they are playing the slower versions? What about any living wish lists? Just interested as I have been messing around with both on MTGO lately.

I went 4-0 in a local event for eternal masters pack last weekend. Played a slower list with dark confidants and such.

Some people like Blooming Marsh because it protects you against Submerge. I'm not a huge fan personally, but I suppose it depends on your meta.

[hovercraft]

I was wondering why folks are playing Blooming Marsh? I feel like that was a development when I was not playing for a few months.

Also, has anyone tried tireless tracker out if they are playing the slower versions? What about any living wish lists? Just interested as I have been messing around with both on MTGO lately.

I went 4-0 in a local event for eternal masters pack last weekend. Played a slower list with dark confidants and such.

I have the stock turbo depths list, but I mostly play a Living Wish Depths deck, which lands somewhere between Turbo Depths and Aggro Loam. Been testing a white splash recently, mostly for Knight of The Reliquary. I definitely enjoy playing the Living Wish variant the most, even if it isn't as explosive. It isn't any slower than Sylvan Scrying and it gives you more options.

I have been meaning to test out Tireless Tracker but I need to pick some up.

3 Bayou
3 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Dark Confidant
2 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Life from the Loam
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Living Wish
4 Mox Diamond
2 Sylvan Library
1 Tarmogoyf
3 Vampire Hexmage
2 Vindicate

Sideboard:
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dark Depths
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Golgari Charm
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Karakas
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Maze of Ith
1 Pithing Needle
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Tombstalker
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Vampire Hexmage

[solnox]

Just 5-0'd a legacy league with a more traditional depths list. It should get posted in a few days.

Beat 2 Burn decks, 2 Eldrazi MUD, 1 piloted by Joe Lossett, and RUG delver

[Thoughtsauce]

Just 5-0'd a legacy league with a more traditional depths list. It should get posted in a few days.

Beat 2 Burn decks, 2 Eldrazi MUD, 1 piloted by Joe Lossett, and RUG delver

Of course he's not streaming when he plays against Depths :(

[solnox]

He actually was streaming when playing against me. Its in his most recent stream vod. He was playing eldrazi mud. my draws were pretty insane

[Thoughtsauce]

I have the stock turbo depths list, but I mostly play a Living Wish Depths deck, which lands somewhere between Turbo Depths and Aggro Loam. Been testing a white splash recently, mostly for Knight of The Reliquary. I definitely enjoy playing the Living Wish variant the most, even if it isn't as explosive. It isn't any slower than Sylvan Scrying and it gives you more options.

I have been meaning to test out Tireless Tracker but I need to pick some up.

3 Bayou
3 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Dark Confidant
2 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Life from the Loam
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Living Wish
4 Mox Diamond
2 Sylvan Library
1 Tarmogoyf
3 Vampire Hexmage
2 Vindicate

Sideboard:
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dark Depths
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Golgari Charm
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Karakas
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Maze of Ith
1 Pithing Needle
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Tombstalker
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Vampire Hexmage

Wow, what a cool list! I love a lot of what is going on here. Looks similar to a Junk Depths list I saw recently, but with Chalices and Confidants over Needles and Rotations. I am surprised that you aren't running an artifact removal creature out of the board for Wishing. If you were to give a detailed breakdown of your list, it'd be appreciated.

[hovercraft]

Wow, what a cool list! I love a lot of what is going on here. Looks similar to a Junk Depths list I saw recently, but with Chalices and Confidants over Needles and Rotations. I am surprised that you aren't running an artifact removal creature out of the board for Wishing. If you were to give a detailed breakdown of your list, it'd be appreciated.

Hey, so like I said the white splash is new, so the list is still a bit rough. But I have played BG depths with Loam, Wish, Chalice, Mox, etc for awhile, but with less creatures then the list I posted. Instead I ran Hymns and Toxic Deluge maindeck and things like Sinkhole and Bind to compliment the Loam-Wasteland in mana denial. When my local meta(I don't play MTGO, just locally) was really combo heavy I played Trinisphere and Sphere of Resistance at times too. Lately the meta has been shifting more fair with a lot of BUG and D&T decks and I wanted to increase the creature count in the deck to have more non-Marit Laige threats.

But essentially the deck tries to use Mox Diamond + Chalice and Loam+Wasteland to disrupt your opponent, while you assemble your combo with Wish/Loam or through drawing ability of Dark Confidant/Sylvan Library. I mostly ignore 1 drops for the deck so I don't shut myself off with Chalice. Now with white, Knight gives you a flexible creature that helps assemble the combo or can be a big threat on his own. The 1 Goyf is mostly because I only have 1 and I only have 3 Knights so far, so he could be Knight #4 or you could go more Goyfs if you want cheaper beaters. This where you could test Tireless Tracker as well. I feel like 4 Dark confidant might be too high, so I might try it at 3 eventually.

I kept a couple Hymns in the sideboard because I am not playing any maindeck discard besides Liliana now, and against a lot of decks Hymn can still be devastating (can be cast T1 with a Diamond too). The riftstone portal might be too cute but it's great if you get to discard it to Mox or Liliana. Could just be another Scrubland or Savannah or Wasteland.

On the wishboard, I have used a lot of different cards in there, and it's usually depending on how the meta has been lately. I have played Reclamation Sage in there for artifacts before, but I cut it for the Knight and Gaddock Teeg for now. The maindeck has 3 Abrupt and 2 Vindicate that can hit artifacts. I like that Vindicate can also be used as a sinkhole and Anti-Karakas spell too. Dark Depths, Hexmage and Stage are still usually your Wish targets, but I have won a lot of games with Tombstalker off a wish as well. Maze of Ith can often keep you alive in certain matchups too.

Other useful wish creatures you can use are:
Scavaging Ooze
Faerie Macabre
Phyrexian Revoker
Reclamation Sage (or Q Pridmage now with white)
Removal creature like Shriekmaw
I haven't tested any but any White hate bear type creature


Other lands:
Glacial Chasm
Ghost Quarter
Cabal Pit
Tabernacle (if you are lucky enough to have one)

Probably others I am forgetting too, but you don't want your whole board to be for Wish so just tune it for whatever meta you are in. If you have any other specific questions feel free to ask! Hopefully this is helpful.

[warfordium]

Some people like Blooming Marsh because it protects you against Submerge. I'm not a huge fan personally, but I suppose it depends on your meta.

Anecdotal, but I've blown out a delver player with this.

1) make marit lage
2) they let it happen… then surgical depths on their turn(??!?!??!!)
2b) why the hell?!?!? OH! Submerge!
3) i crop away my forest (cost!) with surgical on the stack.

it was only our thursday night 4-rounder, but still. felt good mang.

[Motto82]

Okay, so Sneak and Show isn't a bad matchup for us per sé but is anyone considering playing this card against them?
http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/sandwurm-convergence/
It looks hilarious to drop this in the face of a topdecked / resolved Show and Tell. Emrakul and Griselbrand are no longer able to attack and you're getting a clock. Not that I really believe that last part matters as you should be able to get your token somewhere.
Since I have some real Show and Tell Adepts in my meta, I'll be running this as fun-off just to troll them out of the game :)

[cavalrywolfpack]

It seems narrow, but hilarious. I ship it!

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[ovate]

I'm new to the deck, and to Legacy in general. I'm starting off playing a mostly stock list, with a 2/1 Into the North/Expedition Map split, a Sylvan Library over the 3rd Not of This World, and a Shizo over the 3rd Bayou.

I'm currently struggling to decide between the Ballista/Stronghold sideboard and the Rite/Boseju sideboard, which has been explored in the last few pages. My main priority is beating Miracles, as I'm finding that D&T is closer to even.

Rite presents a bigger "answer this or die" than Ballista, but leaves you in a much worse position if they can answer it. Their answers are Venser (which is also good against Ballista, but not nearly as much), Swords on their own creature (if they have one, and haven't taken too much damage from fetches/Hexmage beats), or getting it out of your hand proactively with Clique.

Of those, the only one that stops Ballista is Clique, but in addition to using it proactively, they can also use it reactively by digging for it, killing the Ballista, and Cliquing in your draw step. The Ballista is also more vulnerable to Entreat the Angels and Monastery Mentor (being able to kill Mentor and tokens is good, but flat out killing the opponent is better). Surgical Extraction beats Ballista as well.

Pithing Needle can stop either plan, proactively against Rite and reactively as well against Ballista. However, using it to stop Ballista forces them to not use it against the combo.

One advantage of the Rite plan is that it would be possible to save on SB slots by playing Rite over Not of This World in the main. On this plan, Boseju could also be played in the main, over the 3rd Bayou or Shizo, which would improve Game 1 against Miracles (not sure how much, if any, it would help G1 against D&T).

Has anyone tested Cabal Coffers with the Ballista plan? Seems like it would be good, but it could also be win-more. Not to mention the difficulty of getting a Coffers and an Urborg, on top of the Stronghold, and most likely threatening the combo. Only seems plausible if the game goes REALLY long.

Ballista also might make Surgicals better. If you can Surgical away Mentor/Entreat, they have no remaining threats which have more than 2 toughness. But I'm not sure how much you'd want to use Surgicals on threats in that matchup, unless you're confident you can deal with anything else they throw at you.

[DNSolver]

i am not sure how you are fitting surgicals in your board in addition to one of the transformative plans. So i wouldnt count on bringing in surgicals like that.

In general, i think that either of those plans work enough of the time that they are worthwhile. I think there might be more good things about rite and boseiju. As you mentioned, running rite maindeck helps in some weird matchups by beating karakas or maze (though usually death and taxes can swords to survive, so you have to discard it).

Keep in mind that in the miracles matchup the good cards are still needle, discard on the play, and sylvan library. Sylvan library does need to draw you into something that is hard to deal with, whether it is ballista or rite or planeswalkers is your choice.

Specifically about the walkers: currently looking into 3 Nissa vital force and 2 garruk relentless

[apple713]

i am not sure how you are fitting surgicals in your board in addition to one of the transformative plans. So i wouldnt count on bringing in surgicals like that.

In general, i think that either of those plans work enough of the time that they are worthwhile. I think there might be more good things about rite and boseiju. As you mentioned, running rite maindeck helps in some weird matchups by beating karakas or maze (though usually death and taxes can swords to survive, so you have to discard it).

Keep in mind that in the miracles matchup the good cards are still needle, discard on the play, and sylvan library. Sylvan library does need to draw you into something that is hard to deal with, whether it is ballista or rite or planeswalkers is your choice.

Specifically about the walkers: currently looking into 3 Nissa vital force and 2 garruk relentless

If you are considering planeswalkers why not liliana of the veil? She controls the board and the hand.

[Ribo]

If you are considering planeswalkers why not liliana of the veil? She controls the board and the hand.

Probably because Nissa and Garruk can kill the opponent.

Yesterday i tried the Boseiju and Rite tech agains Miracles but a t3 blood moon messed up my plan.

I like the PW sb plan, but you will need dread of nights in the sb for the D&T match up.

@DNsolver, is there any chance you will be recording an other league soon? I learned a lot of your video's.

[solnox]

I really like the rite plan compared to the previous plans. An innocuous sylvan scrying getting boseiju leading to a win feels really good. Venser is not really played anymore except for legends miracles. Its also fairly solid vs DnT, lands, Aggro loam, any matchup that has a ton of ways to remove Marit Lage.

I'm still trying to get OBS to work but I want to do a recording of my legacy challenge and maybe the 5-0 league if its still there

[ovate]

i am not sure how you are fitting surgicals in your board in addition to one of the transformative plans. So i wouldnt count on bringing in surgicals like that.

In general, i think that either of those plans work enough of the time that they are worthwhile. I think there might be more good things about rite and boseiju. As you mentioned, running rite maindeck helps in some weird matchups by beating karakas or maze (though usually death and taxes can swords to survive, so you have to discard it).

Keep in mind that in the miracles matchup the good cards are still needle, discard on the play, and sylvan library. Sylvan library does need to draw you into something that is hard to deal with, whether it is ballista or rite or planeswalkers is your choice.

Specifically about the walkers: currently looking into 3 Nissa vital force and 2 garruk relentless

Board is currently:

1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Walking Ballista
1 Pithing Needle (3 MD)
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library (1 MD)

[solnox]

How do you feel about the lack of lock pieces for spellbased combo not named Reanimator?

I've found the deck to feel like a severe underdog without them vs Sneak and Show/Storm Variants/ even Reanimator. I've found Spheres to be even useful vs Czech Pile, Miracles and other decks that are trying to be efficient

[jaruri]

Just won an 8 person GPT with Turbo Depths! Went 3-0 in matches and 6-0 in games.

It was single elim since we only had 8 people show up. Field was 2x DnT, U/B Reanimator, ANT, Burn, Nic Fit, and 4/5c Delver Goodstuff.

I was paired against Nic Fit, DnT, and then the Delver list in the finals.

I had traded my chalice of the voids recently, so I had to change up my sideboard a bit for the event. Ended up going with:

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Dread of Night
2 Collective Brutality
1 Pithing Needle (3 Main)
1 Sylvan Library (1 Main)
1 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge

Don't have notes of the games, but heres what I took out and put in.

Vs Nic Fit, I boarded in:
+Toxic Deluge
+2 Collective Brutality
-3 Pithing Needle

Vs Death and Taxes, I boarded in:
+2 Collective Brutality
+Toxic Deluge
+Pithing Needle
+2 Dread of Night
-Expedition Map
-Elvish Spirit Guide
-Lotus Petal
-Into the North
-Sylvan Scrying
-Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Vs 4c Delver I boarded in:
+2 Collective Brutality
+Toxic Deluge
+Abrupt Decay
-Lotus Petal
-Elvish Spirit Guide
-Into the North
-Sylvan Scrying

Collective Brutality was absolutely amazing today, did so much work. Definitely going to be keeping it in for the future.

[ovate]

How do you feel about the lack of lock pieces for spellbased combo not named Reanimator?

I've found the deck to feel like a severe underdog without them vs Sneak and Show/Storm Variants/ even Reanimator. I've found Spheres to be even useful vs Czech Pile, Miracles and other decks that are trying to be efficient

I have to start with the disclaimer that no one should take my advice, since I had <50 matches played with the deck.

From what I've seen, T1 discard sometimes with Surgical backup is sufficiently disruptive against Show or Storm. I didn't feel like a huge underdog against either of those decks, even in G1. Against Sneak and Show in particular, I don't get the impression that Sphere or Chalice would hurt Sneak and Show any more that it hurts us, although they're both obviously great against Storm.

[solnox]

https://youtu.be/7ckmFItrop0

R1/2 https://youtu.be/pDve9uU1y3U

R3-5: https://youtu.be/4gCxkj98ptg
Its my first attempt at recording myself. I'm going over the deck I run online these days. I just 5-0'd a league vs 2 Czech Pile, Miracles, Aggro Loam, and Elves so a wide variety of matchups

[ovate]

https://youtu.be/7ckmFItrop0

R1/2 https://youtu.be/pDve9uU1y3U

R3-5: https://youtu.be/4gCxkj98ptg
Its my first attempt at recording myself. I'm going over the deck I run online these days. I just 5-0'd a league vs 2 Czech Pile, Miracles, Aggro Loam, and Elves so a wide variety of matchups

Match 2, Game 1, at the end of your opponent's turn 6, you should have copied your opponent's Wasteland with your Stage. That will force him to Wasteland your Depths immediately. He could wait to do it on his turn, but then you can Stage in response and he'd have to throw away Lilly to deal with the token. At that point, you'd at least have live draws, especially between Library + Fetch.

Math 5, Game 1, ESG to Needle Top seems very straightforward. Shuts off Terminus, and gives him 3 less opportunities to hit Swords/Karakas. What were you thinking about saving the Top for?

[solnox]

good point about needle/top. I believe I was already thinking of grind mode as I rarely get to combo miracles that easily.

[cavalrywolfpack]

How's our Nic Fit matchup? It's pretty dominant at my local meta. I imagine it's pretty favorable but I'm asking for experienced players' advice

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[Lio]

I have experience with Jund version and it is very favorable. I think I haven't lost a single game. Their only answers are Liliana, Diabolic Edict (post board), Pithing Needle (post board).

[MDHackbert]

As a Nic Fit player, game one can be pretty scary. Sideboards can vary wildly. I like having a Diabolic Edict and a To The Slaughter. Thoughtseize and Surgicals also often show up. Resolved Marit Lage is often very difficult to remove. BUG lists with Baleful Strix will be more problematic. They can recur it with Stronghold given time.

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk

[solnox]

I'd say any non BUG list is a bye. The only cards junk has that do anything is Path to exile or a potential Rhino to get over 20 life and then draw an answer. The Sneak Fit lists are the easiest with the only card we care about being To the Slaughter/diabolic edict which can easily beat with discard/Mishra's Factory. A BUG list with a leaner curve to the ground with multiple strix/JTMS is the hardest as recurring Strix with Ewit/Volrath's can easily put away a game if we don't find a steppe.

[rcwraspy]

I've played Depths lists in Vintage quite a bit and have dipped my toe into the Legacy versions, especially the "turbo depths" lists most in this thread are running. I have a few questions of cards and strategies that I'm sure have all been discussed at various points but that I'm interested in. Apologies for any inconvenience.

1. Dark Times. The old, from what I can tell original, Dark Times lists from Vintage were mono-black and included main deck 4x Leyline of the Void and a Helm of Obedience or two. This works (or worked) in Vintage but not Legacy for a couple reasons - first, Dredge used to be one of the main pillars of the format so main deck leylines weren't bad and second, Vintage has access to all the powerful black tutors that Legacy doesn't. However, I've always wondered if other ideas from that deck could be ported over to Legacy. It was super hateful with MD Wastelands and Needles, drew well with Confidants, and could power out quick combos with not only lotus and mox jet but also Dark Ritual. Anybody here attempt a mono-black attrition shell, perhaps with Top instead of the Vintage tutors?

2. Rituals can still power out some crazy plays with this deck in Legacy, especially if leaning more black than green. It provides mana for Stage activations, lets you duress+Hexmage from a single black source, etc. Any testing on including these? Are they simply too clunky and/or duplicative?

3. If anybody is experimenting with slower builds, so something between Turbo Depths and Lands, has your testing included Traverse the Ulvenwald? Being able to grab both a Dark Depths and a Hexmage for G is very tempting, but it's probably slower and requires some deck building constraints to get Delirium. I imagine a slower build like this would also run Loam, though I completely understand why the Turbo version doesn't.

4. A pet SB card of mine has always been Grim Discovery. It's an obvious one and I'm sure you've all seen it before. Anybody else enjoy this as a one-of from the board?

[hovercraft]

I've played Depths lists in Vintage quite a bit and have dipped my toe into the Legacy versions, especially the "turbo depths" lists most in this thread are running. I have a few questions of cards and strategies that I'm sure have all been discussed at various points but that I'm interested in. Apologies for any inconvenience.

1. Dark Times. The old, from what I can tell original, Dark Times lists from Vintage were mono-black and included main deck 4x Leyline of the Void and a Helm of Obedience or two. This works (or worked) in Vintage but not Legacy for a couple reasons - first, Dredge used to be one of the main pillars of the format so main deck leylines weren't bad and second, Vintage has access to all the powerful black tutors that Legacy doesn't. However, I've always wondered if other ideas from that deck could be ported over to Legacy. It was super hateful with MD Wastelands and Needles, drew well with Confidants, and could power out quick combos with not only lotus and mox jet but also Dark Ritual. Anybody here attempt a mono-black attrition shell, perhaps with Top instead of the Vintage tutors?

2. Rituals can still power out some crazy plays with this deck in Legacy, especially if leaning more black than green. It provides mana for Stage activations, lets you duress+Hexmage from a single black source, etc. Any testing on including these? Are they simply too clunky and/or duplicative?

3. If anybody is experimenting with slower builds, so something between Turbo Depths and Lands, has your testing included Traverse the Ulvenwald? Being able to grab both a Dark Depths and a Hexmage for G is very tempting, but it's probably slower and requires some deck building constraints to get Delirium. I imagine a slower build like this would also run Loam, though I completely understand why the Turbo version doesn't.

4. A pet SB card of mine has always been Grim Discovery. It's an obvious one and I'm sure you've all seen it before. Anybody else enjoy this as a one-of from the board?

Traverse only gets either DD or Hexmage with delirium up, not both unfortunately.

On mono-B, I think green just offers you better land related utility cards like Sylvan Scrying, Crop Rotation, Living Wish, Sylvan Library etc. Plus Abrupt Decay and such for the 75. Lotus Petal and Elvish Spirit Guide are used over Rituals for the G mana too.

Grim Discovery is interesting, but I feel like as long as you were on green Life From The Loam would provide more value, even though it can't get you back a hexmage. I have never tested Grim though, I'm sure in some cases it can be great to use if after they've removed your first Marit Laige and you have DD and HExmage in the yard.

[rcwraspy]

Traverse only gets either DD or Hexmage with delirium up, not both unfortunately.

On mono-B, I think green just offers you better land related utility cards like Sylvan Scrying, Crop Rotation, Living Wish, Sylvan Library etc. Plus Abrupt Decay and such for the 75. Lotus Petal and Elvish Spirit Guide are used over Rituals for the G mana too.

Grim Discovery is interesting, but I feel like as long as you were on green Life From The Loam would provide more value, even though it can't get you back a hexmage. I have never tested Grim though, I'm sure in some cases it can be great to use if after they've removed your first Marit Laige and you have DD and HExmage in the yard.

Yes, sorry. Poorly worded on my part by using "both...and" but I meant it as in "both are options" instead of "can get both at once." My bad. Still an interesting card in my opinion since we often draw one half of the combo but not the other. And for lists running Wastelands or Steppe it would help fetch that as well.

I've always liked Grim but only ever as a 1-of and only in the board. I basically just bring it in whenever the other side has a high potential of killing a resolved Marit Lage for the exact reason you mention. Often they can stop 1 resolved Marit but not 2 back to back, and it drastically cuts down setup time. It's gimmicky and narrow though so certainly understand if others don't like it.

[solnox]

you might want dark rituals if you expect a metagame of combo and need to speed up your combo turn by half a turn or so. I honestly dont think thats where you want to be as you will likely sacrifice resiliency for speed and I am always a fan of being able to consistently combo over sometimes speeding up.

[hymnyou]

I've played Depths lists in Vintage quite a bit and have dipped my toe into the Legacy versions, especially the "turbo depths" lists most in this thread are running. I have a few questions of cards and strategies that I'm sure have all been discussed at various points but that I'm interested in. Apologies for any inconvenience.

1. Dark Times. The old, from what I can tell original, Dark Times lists from Vintage were mono-black and included main deck 4x Leyline of the Void and a Helm of Obedience or two. This works (or worked) in Vintage but not Legacy for a couple reasons - first, Dredge used to be one of the main pillars of the format so main deck leylines weren't bad and second, Vintage has access to all the powerful black tutors that Legacy doesn't. However, I've always wondered if other ideas from that deck could be ported over to Legacy. It was super hateful with MD Wastelands and Needles, drew well with Confidants, and could power out quick combos with not only lotus and mox jet but also Dark Ritual. Anybody here attempt a mono-black attrition shell, perhaps with Top instead of the Vintage tutors?

2. Rituals can still power out some crazy plays with this deck in Legacy, especially if leaning more black than green. It provides mana for Stage activations, lets you duress+Hexmage from a single black source, etc. Any testing on including these? Are they simply too clunky and/or duplicative?


Great post! I started working on this deck in 2014 based off of Dark Times. Crop rotation and Decay too op to disregard imo, but I went almost mono-black outside of that. I always liked ritual to be honest, you can rip their hand apart or kill quick. It's very good at setting off discard, getting bob out, and going off. Lotus petal, land, ritual bob bob would just win, opponent would be too far behind. Never really took much of any damage off bob and really rebuilds your hand fast. He's also great bait for swords. When I pick up depths again I am going back to dark ritual/bob build. I played the spiritguide/notw version for awhile but just didn't really enjoy playing it very much, but it's prob the best route if you're playing a 10+ round event. I went 5-1 at EW 2016 with no byes with it- and then just tanked, I felt some amount of it had to do with lack of card selection/draw. Overall the deck couldn't rebuild itself very well imo, but it offers some very detailed sequencing which I found interesting.
The arguments against ritual is spirit guide is it's more tricky (pay daze/tapped out CR/etc), helps fight through moon, and gives you higher ratio for beatdown in uncommon/rare circumstances. Ritual can get net you card loss, and can be one of the worst top decks. They both offer ramp in different ways.

With this build I would just make marit quick and just keep reseting, as opposed to using not of this world which is more belcher combo. 4 library was aggressive but honestly worked well, it was always getting destroyed and I always wanted it, great when your gaining 20 life. Problem is Leovold wrecks library (although sylvan is 'a may'), but Bob is still great imo, especially in a deck full of mainly 0-2 drops. I'd change my list today but def run Bob and Ritual again.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=87633

[Ribo]

https://youtu.be/7ckmFItrop0

R1/2 https://youtu.be/pDve9uU1y3U

R3-5: https://youtu.be/4gCxkj98ptg
Its my first attempt at recording myself. I'm going over the deck I run online these days. I just 5-0'd a league vs 2 Czech Pile, Miracles, Aggro Loam, and Elves so a wide variety of matchups

Thanks for the content

[caseyc]

I've played Depths lists in Vintage quite a bit and have dipped my toe into the Legacy versions, especially the "turbo depths" lists most in this thread are running. I have a few questions of cards and strategies that I'm sure have all been discussed at various points but that I'm interested in. Apologies for any inconvenience.

1. Dark Times. The old, from what I can tell original, Dark Times lists from Vintage were mono-black and included main deck 4x Leyline of the Void and a Helm of Obedience or two. This works (or worked) in Vintage but not Legacy for a couple reasons - first, Dredge used to be one of the main pillars of the format so main deck leylines weren't bad and second, Vintage has access to all the powerful black tutors that Legacy doesn't. However, I've always wondered if other ideas from that deck could be ported over to Legacy. It was super hateful with MD Wastelands and Needles, drew well with Confidants, and could power out quick combos with not only lotus and mox jet but also Dark Ritual. Anybody here attempt a mono-black attrition shell, perhaps with Top instead of the Vintage tutors?

2. Rituals can still power out some crazy plays with this deck in Legacy, especially if leaning more black than green. It provides mana for Stage activations, lets you duress+Hexmage from a single black source, etc. Any testing on including these? Are they simply too clunky and/or duplicative?

3. If anybody is experimenting with slower builds, so something between Turbo Depths and Lands, has your testing included Traverse the Ulvenwald? Being able to grab both a Dark Depths and a Hexmage for G is very tempting, but it's probably slower and requires some deck building constraints to get Delirium. I imagine a slower build like this would also run Loam, though I completely understand why the Turbo version doesn't.

4. A pet SB card of mine has always been Grim Discovery. It's an obvious one and I'm sure you've all seen it before. Anybody else enjoy this as a one-of from the board?

Hey there-- I did try out a 3 dark ritual BG turbo build. It was okay, but just had too much variance over several rounds. I currently run a BG turbo version, and I find it pretty consistent and fast.

Some folks on here have some really interesting slower builds, I'd look back through some posts and find em. Some have living wish which is pretty versatile. I have never even seen Grim Discovery, looks pretty decent :-)

[caseyc]

I've been experimenting online with a BUG Depths build that so far seems really good. It's a little slower than BG Turbo Depths, but is more resilient and has great card selection. I'll post the current list (still experimenting) to see what you all think. I may try running it in some Vegas side events and see how it goes.

4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian's Stage
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Polluted Delta
1x Misty Rainforest
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Sejiri Steppe
3x Vampire Hexmage
1x Expedition Map
2x Pithing Needle
3x Mox Diamond
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
3x Gitaxian Probe
1x Stifle
3x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
4x Crop Rotation
2x Sylvan Scrying
4x Thoughtseize
1x Duress
1x Inquisition of Kozilek

SB:
2x Pithing Needle
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Karakas
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Not of This World
3x Flusterstorm

So far my observations have been that it has a better DnT matchup and a worse match-up against Blood Moon / Chalice stompy decks. Miracles might be a little better, but too early to tell. I know Negator on here runs a BUG list, but mine is more blue-based so it probably runs a bit different. There are still games where I have turn 1-2 Marit Lage, but moreso it is a turn 4-5 deck with spending some time stripping their hand, countering important things, and sculpting your hand. Let me know your thoughts :-)

[hovercraft]

If you are playing Gitaxian Probe, it might be worth playing Cabal Therapy in the discard suite.

I don't have any blue duals so I've never tested any BUG but could blue versions run Teferi's response in the 75 for Wasteland and Port?

[uncletiggy]

Probe/therapy has been clunky for me in the past. Twferis reaponse is a little slow and mana intensive. Stifle does what you want while still beong relevant vs miracles and storm arguably two of the tougher matchups.

[tilzinger]

https://youtu.be/7ckmFItrop0

R1/2 https://youtu.be/pDve9uU1y3U

R3-5: https://youtu.be/4gCxkj98ptg
Its my first attempt at recording myself. I'm going over the deck I run online these days. I just 5-0'd a league vs 2 Czech Pile, Miracles, Aggro Loam, and Elves so a wide variety of matchups

Thanks for the videos. I'm thinking of building the deck so I'm looking for good videos.

Double thanks for beating Gul_Dukat. I (and others) reported that guy several times over at the mtgsalvation forums for being a complete a-hole in the old Twin thread. It got to a point where I had turned off all his comments.

[AmokPL]

well :-) we can all get rid of that 4-5 sb cards we had just for Miracles and focus on our other foes.

[filln]

well :-) we can all get rid of that 4-5 sb cards we had just for Miracles and focus on our other foes.

And I was really starting to enjoy the Rite of Consumption tech.

[hovercraft]

And I was really starting to enjoy the Rite of Consumption tech.

Lol I just bought a Boseiju this weekend. Oh well, the rites plan could still help some some stalled out boards with chump blockers but the need for Boseiju has definitely decreased.

What are our other worst matchups? D&T and S&T?

[Claymore]

Worst matchup becomes whatever high speed combo deck emerges from the ashes...until that's answered by UW Blade. UWx stoneblade will likely come back but I don't think that will be too terrible. Answer Swords and you're good, the rest of that deck is on a different axis.

[jdmdave]

So with my miracles deck getting banned into oblivion, what's changed with this deck since GP Chiba?

[Claymore]

The board has been shaken up almost every hour with the latest anti-miracles tech. Latest were Rites of Consumption + Boseiju, or Academy Ruins + Walking Ballista.

Honestly, not much else other than that.

There could be some work now though towards the Dark Ritual Depths, longer control versions with Nether Void or whatever, and BUG versions.

[ComplexPants]

The board has been shaken up almost every hour with the latest anti-miracles tech. Latest were Rites of Consumption + Boseiju, or Academy Ruins + Walking Ballista.

Honestly, not much else other than that.

There could be some work now though towards the Dark Ritual Depths, longer control versions with Nether Void or whatever, and BUG versions.

Guess it is time to start targeting D&T hardcore. Maybe even consider some alternative win-cons in the board.

[filln]

Guess it is time to start targeting D&T hardcore. Maybe even consider some alternative win-cons in the board.

The upside is that D&T will likely face some headwinds in the new meta. Miracles was a good matchup for them, Elves and TNN will be more prevalent now. Early rumblings suggest that red (for Magus of the Moon) and black (for Zealous Persecution, Orzhov, Thoughtseize) splash will be more common and that Revoker will be shaved down. Red splash isn't great for us but the black splash and less Revokers is a good thing.

[DNSolver]

Many of you know that I've put a lot of time into making the Miracles matchup better through sideboard tech. I hope you guys enjoyed, but it appears that some of our problems may be over with that regard. The deck may turn out to still exist as a Jace + miracle cards control deck, but I believe that it will be substantially weaker than it has been. It will be more vulnerable to discard and the threat of Terminus is going to decrease no matter what.

I don't like to metagame the metagame changes that we might see with this. The reason is that some matchups might change substantially because sideboards are going to change a lot. Previous sideboards of many decks had several dedicated miracles slots, so even though our sideboard is clearing up, other decks have more slots too. For example, a rise in instant-speed edict effects out of Delver decks or the Czech pile might make things worse for us.

However, this doesn't mean I can't talk about some preliminary changes I'm considering. I feel like if I was going to ignore Miracles in the previous environment, my sideboard would look something like:

? Chalice / Sphere of Resistance
? Surgical
? Dread of Night
4 Abrupt Decay (still needed IMO)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Karakas
3 Sylvan Library (still want this for D+T, Stoneblade, some combo decks)

With 6 slots available in this sideboard, I'm confident that we can adapt to the new metagame, despite some probable surges in decks we might not enjoy. I think that Surgical is especially interesting because there could be more Lands in this new meta.

[hovercraft]

I think Surgicals and Spheres is how I am leaning for my SB, with extra D&T stuff like
Toxic Deluge
Dread of Night
Massacre.


Here is our answer to Diabolic Edict:

Beckon apparition


:eek:
But realistically I think we just treat it like STP and pull it with our discard.

[DNSolver]

Here is our answer to Diabolic Edict:

Beckon apparition


:eek:
But realistically I think we just treat it like STP and pull it with our discard.

Dryad Arbor is our "best" answer besides discard.

[hovercraft]

Dryad Arbor is our "best" answer besides discard.

Oh yeah I know I was being sarcastic about Beckon. Arbor is great as a CR and Catacombs target.

[filln]

Oh yeah I know I was being sarcastic about Beckon. Arbor is great as a CR and Catacombs target.

What are the merits of Khalni Garden vs. Dryad Arbor? Is the biggest advantage Arbor has that it can be fetched?

[MDHackbert]

If Delver and/or Infect increases, do we move to more Blooming Marshes to avoid Submerge? If so, I would guess # of fetches goes down? In this case Khalni probably gets better than Arbor.

[JermStudDog]

Honestly, one of the things I liked most about the Ballista tech was the random stuff it picked up on just by being able to side into a value deck. You can deal with D&Ts small creatures by removing +1/+1 counters. You can cast Ballista under a Blood Moon. You can kill everything Infect has to offer at instant speed. It really changes the pace of the deck when people are adjusting to go more controlly vs our crazy combo, we can move toward controlling the ground and just beating face with value. That said, I still like things like Engineered Plague and Night of Souls' Betrayal just because they crap on so many decks right now.

[solnox]

I'm going to stick with a number of Rite of Consumption. Card is really good vs DnT/MAv/Aggro Loam variants.

[caseyc]

I think Surgicals and Spheres is how I am leaning for my SB, with extra D&T stuff like
Toxic Deluge
Dread of Night
Massacre.


Here is our answer to Diabolic Edict:

Beckon apparition


:eek:
But realistically I think we just treat it like STP and pull it with our discard.

I just ordered some Beckon Apparitions--that card is sweet!

Also, I had just taken out my 4x Chalices to try out the Boseiju/Rite SB plan for DnT and Miracles. Though Chalices are nice vs Elves and Delver, I think both those matchups are pretty favorable for us. Yeah, it is going to take a while to see how the meta shifts and how our SB slots are best used. I am excited about the BUG version I posted a few days ago, and I think it has more potential to play the control role against super fast combo.

[MDHackbert]

I think you may want to keep the chalices for storm. On 1 and 0 is lights out most of the time.

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk

[solnox]

If you want to beat Diabolic Edict, Play Mishra's Factory. I feel the card is constantly underrated. Tutorable for edict with rotation. serves as a plan b with stage beats. Blocks if you need to

[ovate]

If you want to beat Diabolic Edict, Play Mishra's Factory. I feel the card is constantly underrated. Tutorable for edict with rotation. serves as a plan b with stage beats. Blocks if you need to

I'm leaning towards Factory too, but I can definitely see the upside in either Khalni Garden or Dryad Arbor.

Dryad Arbor has the benefit of being fetchable, and of tapping for Green. Not as good in combat as Factory, but it's better than the Garden. Doesn't require pumping mana into to turn into a creature.

Khalni Garden has the benefit that if they remove your creature, you still have the land. You can also block even after tapping out. Taps for Green. Token doesn't die to Wasteland/Ghost Quarter.

Mishra's Factory has the benefits of attacking and blocking better, coming into play untapped, and working better in multiples (copied with Stage). You choose when you want to let the creature be exposed to removal. Colorless is usually an advantage, but Artifact is usually a disadvantage.

Attacking or blocking with them is a really fringe case. What you're mostly interested in is how good they are against Edict effects, and how good they are when you draw them. Against Edict effects, the fetchability of Dryad Arbor gives it the edge, while Mishra's Factory is usually harder to kill than the plant token. When drawn, Dryad Arbor is the worst, as it's easiest to kill and the worst to get killed. Garden vs. Factory is the choice between a CIPT Green land or a CIPUT Colorless land. Not immediately clear which is better, but for now I'll go with Factory.

[solnox]

You'd be surprised how often you win games with Factory Beats. Cant be abrupt decayed. Is free to activate with rotation (taps itself to activate)

I REPEAT DO NOT PLAY WITH KHALNI GARDEN. Too many regrets with that card its not even funny. Arbor cannot add mana immediately when you draw it and basically is a CITP land. CITP lands imo are complete dogshit as you need to maximize your mana every turn. I'd suggest you try garden and arbor for 15 games or so and you'll see how often the CITP land ruins games.

[jdmdave]

I was testing khalni garden pre-chiba. Card is just awful.

If you want to beat edict, the key is just more targeted discard or something like Mishra's factory.

[apple713]

I'd like to thank wizards for banning Sensei's divining top so we no longer have to worry about Miracles anymore. This might allow this deck to rise significantly in success. Now the decks only real competition is D&T and ANT which can likely be handled with the extra SB slots. I do think that at this point, with the lack of control to check the format, the best version will be the absolute fastest version because you will have to "race" combo decks more than before. The fact that this deck has multiple successful versions is a great asset to the deck and think it will be able to adapt to whatever comes its direction.

It would also be beneficial to think about what is next to come. I think aggro zombies did a good job summing up what to expect. see below.


Counterbalance being dead means a few things:

- Chalice is your premiere lock card, and it doesn't see play in Brainstorm decks. Decks like Eldrazi and Loam get marginally better but still suffer from consistency issues that will keep them from going the distance in big tournaments.

- As others have noted, the most logical deck to build toward for Miracles players is some sort of Stoneblade or Mentor build. These will see a bump, but the lack of Counterbalance to give you long-term control means durdling isn't that rewarding. If you don't have some kind of clock, you will get ground out eventually, so you have to be more aggressive.

- Control players are sad, as no true control deck exists or can exist anymore. The format is not unlike Modern now, where midrange is your best bet for playing a longer game because you have more tools to be proactive, and being proactive shortens the game and means you lose to random shit less often. Counterbalance saved people's asses from a lot of "I'll sculpt a perfect hand and then kill you through Force" gameplay, and there's no equivalent now.

- Aggro gets mildly better, but not really. Midrange will still choke the life out of it, so pure aggro decks like Affinity, Zoo, or Sligh are still kind of garbo. UR Delver is probably the most aggressive you can safely get without being Just Dead to a significant chunk of the format.

- Combo is back! Decks like Storm that were too difficult / draining to pilot through a sea of Counterbalances and counterspells get better because now the raw density of disruption goes down. I expect more Storm to show up at top tables.

TLDR: more midrange, more combo (ANT / Elves), & some version of stoneblade.

[rcwraspy]

If you want to start beating down with Factories, there was an interesting U-based Standstill Depths build in Vintage the other year that did well in dailies. I'm sure green is splashable there for Crop Rotation, and that it can be ported to Legacy. It didn't include Factories but Standstill decks often do. An example can be found here: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=11518&d=265530&f=VI

I know ports from Vintage to Legacy don't make sense for many reasons - lack of power cards, completely different metas due to mana acceleration, 1CMC being vulnerable to mental misstep, etc. But it may give some ideas.

[Negator77']

Played in three leagues between yesterday and today. Lost a razor close game three in round five last night, just missing the 5-0... but bounced back today and got the old 5-0 (10-0). The early online meta from my 15 matches and watching streams while playing seems to be a bunch of BUG, combo, and Elves. I played reanimator twice, Sneak and Show twice, Elves three times, Burn, WBR blade, Storm twice, BUG Delver, Grixis Delver, Shardless BUG, and UR Delver.

After running it tonight, count me in the group that thinks Mishra's Factory is worth a SB slot now. Some Delver players are up to 2-3 copies of Diabolic Edict in the SB, to say nothing of the slower BUG decks and 4 color pile control type decks. I've been enjoying bringing in Flusterstorms against the 4 color control lists for a while to blow out edict, but hate that plan against Delver and won't bring them in there. Factory will be nice to have in both mu's.

[MDHackbert]

@Negator77' what did you cut from your board now that Miracles is gone? I was liking the Main still. I guess the grips are not as necessary anymore?

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk

[Negator77']

@Negator77' what did you cut from your board now that Miracles is gone? I was liking the Main still. I guess the grips are not as necessary anymore?

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk

I just shaved an extraction and tried the factory to start... wanted to feel out the meta. I don't want to cut grips yet and run into a bunch of chalice decks or something silly like Tezz or Enchantress without defense. Plus, Blood Moon could be more prevalent. For now, see how things unfold kind attitude.

[wsurugby10]

Will Winter Orb see more play out of our boards with the possible up tick of Lands?

[ovate]

I just shaved an extraction and tried the factory to start... wanted to feel out the meta. I don't want to cut grips yet and run into a bunch of chalice decks or something silly like Tezz or Enchantress without defense. Plus, Blood Moon could be more prevalent. For now, see how things unfold kind attitude.

Could you weigh in on Krosan Grip vs. Abrupt Decay? I see you're usually running a mix.

[Negator77']

Could you weigh in on Krosan Grip vs. Abrupt Decay? I see you're usually running a mix.

Well, one of the better uses of Grip was hitting SD Top at split second speed... so that one is out. It hits some random cards that Decay doesn't including Sneak Attack and random stuff that Marit Lage auto loses to like Humility. I guess the biggest plus for Grip on my list right now is that it only requires one colored mana source to hit Blood Moon. Decay is more color intensive, but hits all sorts of creatures that Grip obviously misses, and the stray Liliana or whatever. We are in a new world, so I'm certainly open to a different split or changing the total #'s once the meta starts to settle a bit.

As an aside, I had a storm player play Karakas against me post board last night. A couple of people mentioned that Storm players used the card in the past to fight Gaddock Teeg, Thalia, etc. They just had a bunch of SB space open up, so this could be something we have to deal with going forward.

[hovercraft]

Well, one of the better uses of Grip was hitting SD Top at split second speed... so that one is out. It hits some random cards that Decay doesn't including Sneak Attack and random stuff that Marit Lage auto loses to like Humility. I guess the biggest plus for Grip on my list right now is that it only requires one colored mana source to hit Blood Moon. Decay is more color intensive, but hits all sorts of creatures that Grip obviously misses, and the stray Liliana or whatever. We are in a new world, so I'm certainly open to a different split or changing the total #'s once the meta starts to settle a bit.

As an aside, I had a storm player play Karakas against me post board last night. A couple of people mentioned that Storm players used the card in the past to fight Gaddock Teeg, Thalia, etc. They just had a bunch of SB space open up, so this could be something we have to deal with going forward.

Yeah a local storm player in my area has a Karakas in the board. Good to know to expect it. What is your gameplan vs Storm? I have 2 Surgicals, 2 Sphere of Resistances and an extra discard spell in the side, but I am curious what everyone else uses against it.

[ovate]

The first 5-0 decks since the ban (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-04-26) have been posted. BUG Depths, piloted by Negator, was one of them. Congratulations!

Looks like Mishra's Factory has made it's way to your sideboard. How is that working out for you?

The other lists are pretty heavy on combo, but that's to be expected in the initial weeks. Should drop as the meta adapts.

[silinhateamtop]

My list with the current goal is this way:

3 Bayou

1 Snow-Covered Swamp

1 Snow-Covered Forest

4 Verdant Catacombs

4 Dark Depths

4 Thespian's Stage 3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

1 Sejiri Steppe

1 Ghost Quarter

1 Bojuka Bog

4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Vampire Hexmage

4 Crop Rotation

3 Duress

3 Not of This World

4 Sylvan Scrying

4 Thoughtseize

3 Expedition Map

4 Lotus Petal

4 Pithing Needle

//Sideboard

SB: 1 Karakas

SB: 3 Abrupt Decay

SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

SB: 2 Sylvan Library

SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance

SB: 1 Dryad Arbor

SB: 1 Golgari Charm

SB: 1 Toxic Deluge

Decay still maintains by the versatilitdade in dealing with creatuas, artifacts and enchantments. However, I reduced the number to 3 and added a Golgari Charm (great against elves, TNN decks, DnT, besides completing the enchantment removal function). I play a Toxic against TNN, Elves, DnT and other creatures as well. For now I'm using 4 Sphere. I think STORM decks will play a lot. For 4Color and other decks that use Diabolic, I use the Arbor, because I can tutor it in the best way and it already enters as a creature, unlike other lands. To dodge Diabolic I thought of Leyline white. Being good against Storm too, but the mulligan for this card does not make up for it, I guess. Sylvan needs no explanation, our brainstorming haha. Surgical for now is 2. As I expect a larger number of DRS I believe that reanime decks will be controlled, and the other matches in which it is useful, I believe this is already a good number. My side is aiming for the broad metagame, no specific local goal, since I play more online and sometimes I participate in bigger events, where I can not define the goal.

[Negator77']

The first 5-0 decks since the ban (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-04-26) have been posted. BUG Depths, piloted by Negator, was one of them. Congratulations!

Looks like Mishra's Factory has made it's way to your sideboard. How is that working out for you?

The other lists are pretty heavy on combo, but that's to be expected in the initial weeks. Should drop as the meta adapts.

Thanks! It's been very good so far as a card to bring in against any deck packing Edicts in their board.

[solnox]

Holy. combo winter has been my experience in the past 4/5 leagues.

[solnox]

Question: Is it viable to be able to splash in Flusterstorm alone into the GB Traditional Depths List. Being able to go toe to toe with combo right now especially storm seems like a nice thing to have. Not of This World has becoming less necessary mb now in my opinion with very few Plow decks and are better suited to the board. The real problem is can the deck play enough blue sources to afford casting Flusterstorm or is that only good enough for a BUG shell like Negator's?

[Negator77']

Question: Is it viable to be able to splash in Flusterstorm alone into the GB Traditional Depths List. Being able to go toe to toe with combo right now especially storm seems like a nice thing to have. Not of This World has becoming less necessary mb now in my opinion with very few Plow decks and are better suited to the board. The real problem is can the deck play enough blue sources to afford casting Flusterstorm or is that only good enough for a BUG shell like Negator's?

You should fully expect to get hit with discard in that match-up, and having Brainstorm to protect/dig for the extra reactive disruption is a must imo. The blue package of 8 cards (with the mana base to support it early) is what makes it work. Contorting your mana in the 23 land BG version for just a few Flusterstorms is sketchy when the colored sources are already low. You will either end up in spots where you can't cast them in time or you will be diluting the speed/redundancy of the deck to make room for the extra mana sources.

[chaosjace]

Mindbreak trap if storm becomes a problem

[ovate]

Question: Is it viable to be able to splash in Flusterstorm alone into the GB Traditional Depths List. Being able to go toe to toe with combo right now especially storm seems like a nice thing to have. Not of This World has becoming less necessary mb now in my opinion with very few Plow decks and are better suited to the board. The real problem is can the deck play enough blue sources to afford casting Flusterstorm or is that only good enough for a BUG shell like Negator's?

I'm pretty sure it's impossible to make a manabase that can reliably cast Flusterstorm against combo decks without also making Brainstorm an auto 4-of.

[solnox]

@negator,

Just ran your shell through the league. Went 4-1 the one loss due to me thinking you had a basic that I could fetch to stage copy. Rip.

[adrieng]

Here is my latest list with the miracle ban, we don't need to play library and decay maindeck.
I added more discard toxic deluge which is very good and a different side maily for B/R reanimator and death and taxes.
I think with miracle left the deck is very well positionned in the current meta.

@apple can you edit my list thanks


// 60 Maindeck
// 8 Artifact
4 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map

// 4 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage

// 4 Instant
4 Crop Rotation

// 24 Land
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Blooming Marsh
3 Khalni Garden
2 Llanowar Wastes
1 Maze of Ith

// 20 Sorcery
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Toxic Deluge


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 3 Ratchet Bomb

// 4 Enchantment
SB: 4 Dread of Night

// 4 Instant
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction

// 2 Land
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Maze of Ith

// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Spehere of resistance

[Djehuti]

Depths got some attention from minnie in his article:

https://minniehajj.wordpress.com/2017/04/29/a-treatise-on-miracles-legacy-and-me/

Nothing that hasnt already been discussed here but it got me thinking the deck might see an influx of new players as more people write about it.

[solnox]

is anyone running engineered plague? Seems like a decent answer vs elves etc

[jaruri]

is anyone running engineered plague? Seems like a decent answer vs elves etc

i replaced miracles SB cards with 2 engineered plagues. seems pretty good vs elves and seems ok (but maybe not worth bringing in) vs DnT, Goblins, and TNN decks. Golgari charm might also be worth considering, though its only for a turn.

[Thoughtsauce]

Hey Solnox, Plague seems like a good place to be again. Although I'm probably partial to Deluge or Marsh Casualties. Guess we have to adapt to local metas in general.

I'm thinking that if people start fearing our deck more and more, we will be facing down more Surgicals. In that case, I like using 2 of our newly freed sideboard slots for Relic of Progenitus. Since we don't care about our graveyards anyway, it offers card selection against Surgical effects and helps clear out GYs against Snapcaster/Dredge decks. Is there any suggestions for other cards with similar effects? We definitely want access to Bog, but wasting our own Surgicals just for the "hit Depths, fail to find" workaround" seems like a wasted opportunity with the new sideboard space.

[rcwraspy]

This is a little out of right field, but has anybody experimented with Death's Shadow in the Dark Depths deck? Thoughtseize and Sylvan Library already help get our lilfetotal down, and Gitaxian Probe and Street Wraith further both plans. Although 12 cards is certainly a lot, I think that's all that would need to come in - Shadow, Probe, and Wraith - to make it a viable second option. I was thinking that we may not need to be as fast with having that option and things like Petal and Guide could be cuts. I'm going to play around with it a bit - it's just a brewy idea.

[DNSolver]

Death's Shadow is vulnerable to many of the same cards that Marit Lage is, plus Abrupt Decay. Swords also makes Death's Shadow very very bad. I wouldn't play it. The deck is solid enough as-is.

I could see Engineered Plague being okay. You can name human against Death and Taxes, elf against Elves, Goblin against Empty the Warrens.

Next week, I will be out of school for the summer and I will be testing the metagame waters online.

[Thoughtsauce]

This is a little out of right field, but has anybody experimented with Death's Shadow in the Dark Depths deck? Thoughtseize and Sylvan Library already help get our lilfetotal down, and Gitaxian Probe and Street Wraith further both plans. Although 12 cards is certainly a lot, I think that's all that would need to come in - Shadow, Probe, and Wraith - to make it a viable second option. I was thinking that we may not need to be as fast with having that option and things like Petal and Guide could be cuts. I'm going to play around with it a bit - it's just a brewy idea.

I won't say that it's "bad", but this is not the right shell for that kind of plan. you can certainly play life-hungry Rock decks with that as your finisher, but our plan here is get your opp from 20 to 0 as fast as possible. Shadow is not reliable enough for this. Also, your opp's best answers to a Marit Lage are Swords (kills your Shadow), Karakas, and Edicts (you'll just sac Shadow).

[Negator77']

Hey Solnox, Plague seems like a good place to be again. Although I'm probably partial to Deluge or Marsh Casualties. Guess we have to adapt to local metas in general.

I'm thinking that if people start fearing our deck more and more, we will be facing down more Surgicals. In that case, I like using 2 of our newly freed sideboard slots for Relic of Progenitus. Since we don't care about our graveyards anyway, it offers card selection against Surgical effects and helps clear out GYs against Snapcaster/Dredge decks. Is there any suggestions for other cards with similar effects? We definitely want access to Bog, but wasting our own Surgicals just for the "hit Depths, fail to find" workaround" seems like a wasted opportunity with the new sideboard space.

A card that meets this description with a decent effect is Noxious Revival. Regrow a depths, hexmage, discard, whatever can be useful in spots... Still fizzles most reanimate spells and is great in situations where they only have one turn to draw an out (put a fetch on top of their deck or whatnot). I wouldn't replace Surgical with them, but they are worth considering if you are looking for more of this kind of effect to fight opposing surgicals.

[ovate]

I've been very unhappy with Not of This World lately. It seems like it's mostly good against Swords and Karakas, and occasionally catching something random like an Echoing Truth or a Vial'd in Flickerwisp. I'm going to test out replacing them with either Inquisition of Kozilek and/or Collective Brutality (a 1/1 split to start). My theory being that these will also deal with Swords and other random bounce/flicker effects, but will help against fast combo decks as well. It will make the deck a little weaker to Karakas, and a little more mana intensive.

Could also be correct to add extra Needles, Expedition Maps, or Into the Norths (if anyone is still running that), or even Sylvan Libraries instead.

[chaosjace]

My buddy was telling me to try out lightning greaves, maybe we could test that XD

[DNSolver]

Lightning Greaves doesn't do anything if you think about it.

[filln]

I've been very unhappy with Not of This World lately. It seems like it's mostly good against Swords and Karakas, and occasionally catching something random like an Echoing Truth or a Vial'd in Flickerwisp. I'm going to test out replacing them with either Inquisition of Kozilek and/or Collective Brutality (a 1/1 split to start). My theory being that these will also deal with Swords and other random bounce/flicker effects, but will help against fast combo decks as well. It will make the deck a little weaker to Karakas, and a little more mana intensive.

Could also be correct to add extra Needles, Expedition Maps, or Into the Norths (if anyone is still running that), or even Sylvan Libraries instead.

I replaced three Not of This World with three Rite of Consumptions in my main at a GPT today. I kept two Not of This World in the sideboard to hedge against bounce spells. They Rites ended up being quite good, surprising quite a few people. I ended up in top four, going 4-1-1, with all four of my wins 2-0.

[WorstBandNameEver]

Hi Everyone,

I had a break from work and grad school this weekend. I figured it was a good time to play some Depths online with the banning of Top. I was able to go 4-1 ad 5-0 in leagues with the following deck. It's one of the slow depths builds that I enjoy playing. I don't think it's as good as Negator's current build or many of the others but it's something I enjoy. I guess my list will be up in the 5-0s tomorrow or Monday but I will post it below.

List was posted up - http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-01-0

3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

2 Duress
3 Inquisition
4 Thoughtseize
4 Crop Rotation
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sylvan Scrying
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tireless Tracker

Sb:

4 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Karakas
3 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void

I've been messing around with Tireless Tracker over Dark Confidant. I've been able to win games after having Marit Lage STPed/Pathed and Depths Sugicaled with Tracker. It also continues to function with Blood Moon in play if you can grab a forest. It feels like as much of a threat as depths and managed to draw a lot of cards. I upped my main deck discard with the uptick in storm that seems to be online and I dropped 1 decay from the main deck. Honestly though, I adjusted a previous version of this deck quickly right before jumping into leagues tonight. I will need to look a closer at what I took out and the number of some cards at some point.

[Nocley]

Hi Everyone,

I had a break from work and grad school this weekend. I figured it was a good time to play some Depths online with the banning of Top. I was able to go 4-1 ad 5-0 in leagues with the following deck. It's one of the slow depths builds that I enjoy playing. I don't think it's as good as Negator's current build or many of the others but it's something I enjoy. I guess my list will be up in the 5-0s tomorrow or Monday but I will post it below.

3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

2 Duress
3 Inquisition
4 Thoughtseize
4 Crop Rotation
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sylvan Scrying
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tireless Tracker

Sb:

4 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Karakas
3 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void

I've been messing around with Tireless Tracker over Dark Confidant. I've been able to win games after having Marit Lage STPed/Pathed and Depths Sugicaled with Tracker. It also continues to function with Blood Moon in play if you can grab a forest. It feels like as much of a threat as depths and managed to draw a lot of cards. I upped my main deck discard with the uptick in storm that seems to be online and I dropped 1 decay from the main deck. Honestly though, I adjusted a previous version of this deck quickly right before jumping into leagues tonight. I will need to look a closer at what I took out and the number of some cards at some point.

This looks very interesting. I plan on trying this out for a bit over the next few days. What do you think about the Chalices and the number of 1 drops you have? Is it just trying to go for 0 more often against storm? Also if your lack of sweepers in addition to the slower nature compared to fast mana, does that hurt against elves?

[solnox]

0 fast mana is certainly interesting especially with tracker which I feel you might want to get down faster with mox diamonds etc like lands.

[PeterSouth]

Here is my latest list with the miracle ban, we don't need to play library and decay maindeck.
I added more discard toxic deluge which is very good and a different side maily for B/R reanimator and death and taxes.
I think with miracle left the deck is very well positionned in the current meta.

@apple can you edit my list thanks


// 60 Maindeck
// 8 Artifact
4 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map

// 4 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage

// 4 Instant
4 Crop Rotation

// 24 Land
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Blooming Marsh
3 Khalni Garden
2 Llanowar Wastes
1 Maze of Ith

// 20 Sorcery
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Toxic Deluge


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 3 Ratchet Bomb

// 4 Enchantment
SB: 4 Dread of Night

// 4 Instant
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction

// 2 Land
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Maze of Ith

// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Hymn to Tourach




Hey, I'm a nube still in the brewing phase of this deck and I was considering ratchet bomb, but liked culling scales more and was thinking about maindecking it in light of more creatures and blood moons meta. Was wondering what is your use case for ratchet is and how your experiences have been.

[solnox]

Played my traditional GB Depths list yesterday at Eudemonia's Vegas GPT. Went 4-2 and placed 11th to win back my money

List:

4 Lotus Petal

4 Elvish Spirit Guide

3 Duress

4 Thoughtseize

4 Crop Rotation

3 Pithing Needle

4 Vampire Hexmage

4 Sylvan Scrying

2 Sylvan Library

3 Not of This World

2 Abrupt Decay

2 Bayou

1 Blooming Marsh

2 Verdant

1 Misty

8 Combo Lands

3 Urborg

1 Sejiri Steppe

1 Bog

1 Mishra's Factory

1 Ghost Quarter

1 Forest

1 Swamp

SB:

4 Sphere of Resistance

1 Karakas

3 Surgical Extraction

2 Rite of Consumption

1 Decay

1 Pithing Needle

1 Golgari Charm

1 Engineered Plague


Beat Grixis Delver, ANT, RB Reanimator, had a bye

Lost to Infect and Moon Stompy who went T1 blood moon every game. Not much you can do about that.

[downtoonelife]

I played this deck at our local duel for duals tournament yesterday. I'm still lacking some cards like Thespian stage, Karakas, Maze of Ith, Sphere of Resistance, Chalice of the Void, ESG, NotW, Into the North, Snow Lands and Rite of Consumption so I ended up with this list:

2 Bayou
3 Blooming Marsh
3 Verdant Catacomb
4 Dark Depths
3 Thespian Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Lotus Petal

3 Pithing Needle
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize

3 Expedition Map
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying

2 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Confidant

1 Sylvan Library

Sb:
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Crucible of Worlds

My match up:
R1 vs DNT 2-0
Both games opponent never had Stp or Path to exile in his hand.
R2 vs Jeskai Stoneblade with BloodMoon MD 2-0
Game 1 I was able to discard his Blood Moon. Game 2 Pulse his Blood Moon and win with Marit Lage.
R3 vs Land Draw
Game 1 he won with an early Marit lage via Exploration. Game 2 I surgical his wasteland and life from the loam. I won because of Sylvan Safekeeper while he has 2 Maze of Ith, Karakas, Barbarian Ring on his board. What happened was he killed my Sylvan Safekeeper with the Barbarian ring (I sac a land), he Karakas my Marit (I sac another land) and on my turn before I attack I sac a land to protect the Marit Lage from Maze of Ith.
R4 vs Elves 0-2 Both games he combo around turn 2-3 on his turn via Glimpse and Natural Order.
R5 vs Czech Pile 2-1
Game 1 Turn 1 Sylvan Library help me find the combo fast. Game 2 I mulled to 4 with no lands. Game 3 he also mulled to 4 (I got lucky)
Quarterfinals vs BUG Delver 2-0
Pithing for Wasteland won me the game on both games.
Semi Finals vs Reanimator 1-2
Game 1 he reanimated Tidespout Tyrant I had a Swamp, Blooming Marsh, Dark Depths and Vampire Hexmage. He keeps bouncing my Dark Depths and then I top deck a Sylvan Safekeeper. When he bounce my Dark Depths I sac my Hexmage making the Marit Token. When he bounce the token I sac a land to protect it. On my turn I attacked with the token he blocked and I won from there.
Game 2 on his 1st turn he reanimated Sire of Insanity and won with it.
Game 3 a timely Pithing needle on my vampire Hexmage won him the match.

I was happy with the Sylvan Safekeeper. I feel that I would have lost my 2nd game with Lands if I had NotW or Steely resolve (which he can kill via Abrupt Decay) Same thing with my match with Reanimator game 1. If it was Steely Resolve he could have bounce it then bounce Marit Lage. So for now I'll keep using Sylvan Safekeeper. I'm not going to use ESG also and will keep Dark Confidant. Confidant was a big help as well on this tournament. I was thinking if Ground Seal in the SB can also help protect us from Surgical Extraction? Which is good also against Lands and Reanimator (though they can still cast exhume).

[Lio]

My friends convinced me to play B/G Depths at MKM Frankfurt after deciding between Depths and DnT. They were right, Depths was better choice at the end of the day.

More traditional list:

4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian Stage
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Verdant Catacomb
1x Snow-Covered Forest
1x Snow-Covered Swamp
3x Blooming Marsh
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Bojuka Bog

4x Vampire Hexmage
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Lotus Petal
4x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Pithing Needle
2x Not of this World
4x Sylvan Scrying
4x Crop Rotation
2x Into the North
1x Sylvan Library

SB:
4x Sphere of Resistance
2x Surgical Extration
1x Not of this World
1x Dread of Night
1x Golgari Charm
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Sylvan Library
1x Mishra's Factory
1x Karakas


I played Legacy Trial on Saturday with 2:2

R1: Dredge 2:1
R2: Grixis Delver 1:2 (he had everything both games with some incredible topdecks)
R3: MonoR Sneak Attack 0:2 (I lost one game due to bad sequencing and could have win second with a little bit of luck)
R4: Elves: 2:0
Drop

Sunday Main Event. 7:2:1 (no notes taken, I tried to remember all games as much as I could)

Round 1: Elves! 2:1 (1:0)
G1: I am one turn faster
G2: I keep mediocre hand and get punished by quick Behemoth kill
G3: Discard business spells and kill him. Here I misplayed, because my opponent was on 17 life with Deathrite Shaman, I had Hexmage in graveyard and my opponent made suicide attack. For some unknown reason I felt urge of killing one of his little green man, which could have punish me afterward by double Deathrite activation. Luckily he had nothing. This was my biggest mistake of a day.

Round 2: Dark Bant 2:0 (2:0)
I Needle'd his Wastelands and killed him with NoTW backup.

Round 3: Omnishow 1:2 (2:1)
G1: 20/20 is bigger than 15/15
G2: My opp mulled to 6, so I tried T1 Token, but he had FoW. I gave a good fight afterwards, but lost to Blood Moon I think.
G3: I mulled to 5 on play, with Needle, Karakas, Thoughtseize, Blooming Marsh and land search. I TS him, seeing Lotus PEtal, City of Traitors, Land, BS, Show and Tell, Griselbrand and one card. I took BS. Opponent thinks for a while, then goes T1 Show and Tell into Griselbrand. I drop Needle. In my turn Karakas his fattie. I am able to make token on 4th turn, but he has Wipe Away. I play Elvish Spirit Guide for beats (controversial play). Game goes pretty long, I am able to establish combo again. Same turn he plays Sneak Attack. Here I might misplay as he has fetchland and Lotus Petal open. If I haven't played Elvish Spirit Guide, I would have enough mana to Abrupt Decay his Lotus Petal and bounce whatever he throws in. But I was one mana short. He chumpblocked with Griselbrand, I destroyed Lotus petal, leaving him with 2 red sources. On his turn, he put Emrakul into play, I bounce. He plays another land, put both Emrakul and Grisel into play and I die. Great games, great opponent.

Round 4: Esper Blade 2:1 (3:1)
G1: I go for fast token, assuming he is on BUG. Got Marit Lage StP'ed. Never drew into protection and die to Batterskull and Snapcasters.
G2: I Needle his Wasteland and have NoTW for StP.
G3: I discard Vendilion Clique, leaving him with Liliana and Jace. Liliana hits the table and starts discarding. I draw Pithing Needle, knowing about his Jace, but I decide to Needle his Wasteland anyway. This lets him to BS with Jace twice, but he did not find anything and I am able to assemble a combo and kill him. It was pretty desperate play but paid off.

Round 5: Dragon Stompy 2:1 (4:1)
G1: I got T1 Trinisphere into T2 Rabblemaster. I player first two turns Verdant Catacomb so he would think I am on Shardless or smthg. Trinisphere slowed me down a lot and I could have killed him on T4, which was too late so I scooped.
G2: I discard some hate and make T2 Marit Lage. I am happy for stealing a win, but his re-sideboarding instanly ruins my good mood.
G3: I mulled to Verdant Catacomb, Abrupt Decay, Golgari Charm, Urborg, Hexmage and some land search. Then I drew Elvish Spirit Guide. He goes T1 Mountain + Simina Spirit Guide and drops Chalice@1. I play Verdant and pass. He playes Cavern and pass. I feel pretty confident! Go for Dark Depths and pass with mana open for decay. He is mana screwed. I make token another turn and kill him. Justice!

Round 6: Elves 2:0 (5:1)
G1: I though he is on Storm .. he was on Elves. I go PEtal, Petal, Hexmage, Depths, 20/20, go. Opp draws a card and scoops.
G2: I still though he is on Elves, so I boarded out Needles and another cards for Surgicals and Spheres. His only spells were TS, Therapy and Zenith. Then he dies to 20/20.

Round 7: 4c Delver 2:1 (6:1)
G1: Pithing Needle on Wasteland shuts down his only answer.
G2: He has two fast Delvers and got me on 5 life before I can establish a combo. Couldnt find Sejiri Steppe and dies to Young Pyromancer drawn next turn.
G3: I kept mediocre hand. He stripped me off of some important land searches, but I Needled his Wasteland and drew combo naturally and killed him.

Round 8: Omnitell? 0:2 (6:2)
G1: I mull to 4 on play and see Emrakul jumping through Omniscience on my second turn. Oh boy.
G2: After devastating mulligan experience I keep controversial seven - combo lands, two Crop Rotations, Surgical Extraction and Land Search. No discard. He wishes for Intuition, then Show and Tell into Omniscience. Playes Intuition, finds Emrakul. I try to Surgical his Emrakuls in resp to shuffle triggers, but he as FoW.
My opponent is a nice guy and offers me mini-Snickers. Sweet!

Round 9: Lands 1:1 (6:2:1)
G1: I discard EE, leaving him Life from the Loam and lands. He draws Exploration. I am able to set up turn three token with double backup for his lands. His Life from the Loam dredges two Wastelands, immediately wiping my board.
G2: he has Explarition with Life from the Loam and 2 Wastelands again. I tutor for Ghost Quarter with NoTW, Depths and Hexmage in hand, preparing for combo kill. He starts wasting my lands again. He decides to wasteland my Thespian stage. I copy basic land in response. He wastes again. I play Hexmage and make Token. Another turn kill one of his Maze of Its, NoTW second one
G3: Most entertaining game of the tournament. He gambles into Life from the Loam that I surgical away revealing his deck - there is no other win condition than Depths. We both play land after land. He has lands like Maze, Karakas, Stage, Ghost Quarter, Wastland. I have Stage, Karakas, Ghost Quater and some another lands. I decide to Needle his Maze and go for Spirit Guide beats. My opponent nukes my Karakas and Stage, leaving me with Ghost Quarter (which he forgot about). He goes for Depths combo, but I disrupt it with Quarter. I draw another Spirit Guide, but time is up .. bummer.

Round 10: Elves 2:1 (7:2:1)
G1: I keep clunky hand and get punished by angry green horde.
G2: I kill him.
G3: I mull to 5, keeping Urborg, Depths, Hexmage, TS, smthg. I TS Natural Order, making 20/20, killing him.


I enjoyed playing deck. Three Elves games allowed me to grab some food and chill a bit. Even though I lost to OmniShow, I think it is ~50/50 matchup. Omnitell is difficult, but manageable with discard and proper sideboard. Maybe Karma's revenge for Dragon Stompy? Luckily I haven't played against Storm or Death and Taxes.

I would change my sideboard a little if I could:
-1 Dread of Night (doesn't do anything at the moment)
maybe -1 Abrupt Decay or Golgari Charm
+1-2 Krosan Grip

Another option is to play blue for Flusterstorms and Brainstorms.

Edit: Puzzle
Game against OmniShow

Your board presence: Pithing Needle@Griselbrand, Marit Lage (tapped), ESG, Karakas, Urborg, 3 noncombo lands. (8 permanents total)
Your hand: 2x Urborg
Your life total: 19

Opponents board presence:
City of Traitors, Island, 2x Volcanic Island, Sneak Attack
Opponents cards in hands: 5
Your opponents life: 19
You know his only out to Marit Lage is gone as well as one Griselbrand who chump blocked last turn. He cantriped two turns ago.

Situation: It's your opponents turn, he taps one of his Volcanics and puts Emrakul into play and wants to declare attackers. What would you do?

[jaruri]

I've been seeing a lot of Omni Sneak/Show and Red DnT recently, and get stomped by them pretty consistently. Anyone working on answers to them? My sideboard has recently cut all miracles cards and the third decay in favor of a second dread of night and 2 collective brutalities. I'm thinking of replacing the dread of nights with massacres so we can kill magus easier. I also put Shriekmaw in my board but haven't actually drawn it yet so not sure how viable that is in current meta. Any ideas?

[hovercraft]

Went 3-1 in my LGS legacy night last night. I was trying out Cabal Therapy and GProbe in the deck, but otherwise it was pretty stock list.

R1: vs ANT 2-0. In Game 1 he beat himself as he miscalculated and I had a Marit Laige coming next turn. G2, his cantrips can't find what hes looking for and I make a T3 Token for the win. I sided in 2 Spheres and 2 Surgical but didn't see any.

R2: vs Manaless Dredge 2-1. Close games but a key crop rotate into Bojuka in G1 and surgical on his Dread Return gives me an easy win G3. I sided out 7 discard spells and 2 NOTW, had to bring almost my whole board just to not have dead slots. 2 Surgical, Toxic Deluge, 2 Abrupt Decay, Loam, Maze, Rite of Consumption.

R3 vs Elves 2-1. Super close matches, G1 he NO for Craterhoof when I have Token coming at EOT. I block the Hoof with ML but still take 33 dmg.... G2 He knows I have ML on the way so he goes off earlier than he'd like, I make token and block the Hoof but this time he can only do 16 dmg. I go to 2 and win on next turn. G3 I have a fast hand and he can't combo. He gets me to 2 via aggro but I manage to get the ML just in time.

R4 v s BUG Delver 1-2. Played too fast G1 and got a crop rotation FOWd which hurts. 1 Turn later I use a probe, see he has no FOW or Daze and I try to crop rotate again using ESG. He brainstorms and draws a FOW. I should have been more patient this game. G2 I won after a few grindy turns. G3 was super close but he was able to go from 19 to 21 using DRS and killed me on the next turn. His Wastelands gave me trouble, I had gone down to 2 Needle main but that was a mistake. Definitely going back to 3 or 4.

Also I don't think Probe+Therapy is any better than TS/IOK/etc even though I didn't cast a therapy all day. I am going back to 4 Duress, 2 Thoughtseize 1 IOK I think as my 7 discard. Going to 4 Needles, and 2 NOTW(Pretty much only for white decks, I sided these out every match yesterday since I didn't play any DnT or UWx. Not sure if they should be moved to the side instead unless you have a DnT heavy meta.)



I've been seeing a lot of Omni Sneak/Show and Red DnT recently, and get stomped by them pretty consistently. Anyone working on answers to them? My sideboard has recently cut all miracles cards and the third decay in favor of a second dread of night and 2 collective brutalities. I'm thinking of replacing the dread of nights with massacres so we can kill magus easier. I also put Shriekmaw in my board but haven't actually drawn it yet so not sure how viable that is in current meta. Any ideas?

is Massacre still free under Magus/Blood Moon?



Edit: Puzzle
Game against OmniShow

Your board presence: Pithing Needle@Griselbrand, Marit Lage (tapped), ESG, Karakas, Urborg, 3 noncombo lands. (8 permanents total)
Your hand: 2x Urborg
Your life total: 19

Opponents board presence:
City of Traitors, Island, 2x Volcanic Island, Sneak Attack
Opponents cards in hands: 5
Your opponents life: 19
You know his only out to Marit Lage is gone as well as one Griselbrand who chump blocked last turn. He cantriped two turns ago.

Situation: It's your opponents turn, he taps one of his Volcanics and puts Emrakul into play and wants to declare attackers. What would you do?

Hmm thats tough, You have enough permanents to eat the Annihilator and keep ML, but you can also Karakas Emrakul, but then he can sneak him in as a blocker on your turn. I think you win if you sac 4 lands, ESG and needle, then attack with ML on your turn. Save the Karakas in case he has another fatty in hand to sneak in to block.

[cavalrywolfpack]

If they control a basic plains and you control a basic swamp, yes. If either on of those is not on the board, no it is not free.

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[ovate]

R2: vs Manaless Dredge 2-1. Close games but a key crop rotate into Bojuka in G1 and surgical on his Dread Return gives me an easy win G3. I sided out 7 discard spells and 2 NOTW, had to bring almost my whole board just to not have dead slots. 2 Surgical, Toxic Deluge, 2 Abrupt Decay, Loam, Maze, Rite of Consumption.


Keep in the discard against Manaless Dredge. It's a one mana Time Walk. You don't mind putting basically any non-Dredge card into their graveyard, which is 3/4ths of the deck.

[hovercraft]

Keep in the discard against Manaless Dredge. It's a one mana Time Walk. You don't mind putting basically any non-Dredge card into their graveyard, which is 3/4ths of the deck.

Since I was on 3 Duress 3 Cabal Therapy 1 Thoughtseize, I figured I might as well board them out. Could have kept the thoughtseize at least, but Duress misses most of their deck and Cabal would be awkward on what to name. I'm moving off the cabal again now anyway and back towards Duress+Thoughtsieze. It was my first time playing against Dredge in a long time so I was pretty rusty on how it all worked.

[ovate]

Edit: Puzzle
Game against OmniShow

Your board presence: Pithing Needle@Griselbrand, Marit Lage (tapped), ESG, Karakas, Urborg, 3 noncombo lands. (8 permanents total)
Your hand: 2x Urborg
Your life total: 19

Opponents board presence:
City of Traitors, Island, 2x Volcanic Island, Sneak Attack
Opponents cards in hands: 5
Your opponents life: 19
You know his only out to Marit Lage is gone as well as one Griselbrand who chump blocked last turn. He cantriped two turns ago.

Situation: It's your opponents turn, he taps one of his Volcanics and puts Emrakul into play and wants to declare attackers. What would you do?

If you Karakas the Emrakul before attacks are declared, the opponent could potentially Sneak in a Griselbrand, go over 20 life, and then Sneak Emrakul (a couple times if necessary) the following turn. This is the most likely way to lose, so keep up Karakas.

Then the question becomes what to sac to Annihilator. The first five are easy, then it's choosing between Pithing Needle and Karakas. If they can play a red producing land and have two fatties in hand, you're probably dead no matter which one you keep. If they can play a red producing land and only have one fatty in hand, if it's Emrakul it doesn't matter what you keep, and if it's Griselbrand you need to keep Pithing Needle or lose. If they can't play a second red producing land, keeping Karakas will win you the game. Keeping Pithing Needle is still a win if they have no fatties, is still quite good if they have one fatty, and loses you the game if they have 2+.

All in all, I'd probably keep Pithing Needle here. Stops you being dead to Griselbrand + Land. I consider that more likely than 2 x Fatties + No Land. Those are the two cases where the choice of what you keep really matters. It does depend on how recently they missed a land drop.

[chaosjace]

I tested out expedition map, really didn't like it. I kept one in for further testing but it was always either a turn too slow or into the north would have been preferred.

[hovercraft]

I tested out expedition map, really didn't like it. I kept one in for further testing but it was always either a turn too slow or into the north would have been preferred.

Yeah I've also opted for an extra into the north instead of the Map. Map being a Decay target sucks too. One of the pros of Map is that it's better under blood moon though I guess.

[epicthings]

I'm torn between Mishra's Factory and Dryad Arbor as our out to edicts. Yes Factory is bigger, turns itself on and taps for Mana the turn it comes into play, but arbor can get grabbed easier as you can fetch it in response to the edict effect with a verdant.

Is it purely preferential or is one truly better?

[chaosjace]

I'm torn between Mishra's Factory and Dryad Arbor as our out to edicts. Yes Factory is bigger, turns itself on and taps for Mana the turn it comes into play, but arbor can get grabbed easier as you can fetch it in response to the edict effect with a verdant.

Is it purely preferential or is one truly better?

I think if you don't have anything you want to kill with factory, and only want something to protect against edict, than arbor is the way to go for the reason you stated.

[cavalrywolfpack]

I tested out expedition map, really didn't like it. I kept one in for further testing but it was always either a turn too slow or into the north would have been preferred.
I've played two Maps for a while and I haven't minded them. The real advantage is on the play it's an innocuous turn 1 tutor. I very rarely have my Maps Dazed or FoW'd. I like having them in, but post board they often get cut because it is the weakest tutor we have.
I keep getting lost in the sideboard talk here. I'm guessing we leave in Sylvan Libraries, but what else do we cut now? Here's my board, from what I remember.
4x Rite of Consumption
2x Duress
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Boseiju
1x Karakas
2x Sylvan Library
3x Abrupt Decay

I feel like there was a Golgari Charm in their somewhere, but I may have cut it.

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[chaosjace]

I am also fiddling around with my SB and flex slots. Right now I want to make the deck faster, have been consdering:

Sylvan Library - Slows the deck down, but allows recovery, this card is probably going into my deck
Ancient Stirrings - Speeds the deck up, finds land or hate, weak to painter servant
Into the North - allows turn 2 token, only 6 targets, medium speed
Burgeoning - why does this card exist?
Exploration - faster combo, does no recursion matter?
Deathrite Shaman - MD GY hate, mana fixing, win con, life saver.
Horizon Canopy - green mana source, white doesn't help me, draws a card.
Tranquil Thicket - not playing land recursion, tapped Green source, draws a card once.
Maze of Ith - stops griselbrand, doesn't make mana on it's own, doesn't stop emrakul from ruining everything.
Ancient Tomb - colorless source, activates stage for one less mana, could cast warping wail?
Mox Diamond - Need to add more lands in the deck, colored source that sticks around speed is key



my SB right now looks like
3x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Rite of consumption
1x Faerie Macarbre
2x Surgical Extraction
2x grafdiggers cage
1x Karakas
1x golgari charm
2x Abrupt Decay


The only matchup I lose to regularly is reanimator. In my last tournament i didn't even really need my SB slots as I was just faster than everything I came across.

[hovercraft]

I've played two Maps for a while and I haven't minded them. The real advantage is on the play it's an innocuous turn 1 tutor. I very rarely have my Maps Dazed or FoW'd. I like having them in, but post board they often get cut because it is the weakest tutor we have.
I keep getting lost in the sideboard talk here. I'm guessing we leave in Sylvan Libraries, but what else do we cut now? Here's my board, from what I remember.
4x Rite of Consumption
2x Duress
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Boseiju
1x Karakas
2x Sylvan Library
3x Abrupt Decay

I feel like there was a Golgari Charm in their somewhere, but I may have cut it.

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This is what I ran for SB this week:

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Engineered Plague
1 Golgari Charm
2 Rite of Consumption
1 Life from the Loam

Still a work in progress

[tarmogoat]

I just built this deck online, and I found an incredibly large amount of blood moons, even MD blood moons. There was even a match vs Grixis Delver where they sided a Moon out. I mean, I looked into the 5-0 lists and no one in grixis is playing basics to support this plan, so I just got unlucky I suppose. But I've played 3 blood moon decks in my last 3 modo league matches. It's so tiring to try playing against decks that manascrew themselves and wait til they draw basics behind Force of Will while I can't resolve a freaking petal or Scrying. Ugh! I just needed it air it out. Anyway, the sheer speed of this deck continues to amuse me, and I will fight through the hate of the meta until I can master this deck. I absolutely love it!

4x Lotus Petal
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Crop Rotation
3x Expedition Map
4x Sylvan Scrying
3x Pithing Needle
4x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
4x Vampire Hexmage
3x Not of This World
4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian's Stage
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Bayou
1x Blooming Marsh
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Forest
1x Swamp

Sideboard:
1x Mishra's Factory
1x Karakas
1x Pithing Needle
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Sphere of Resistance
2x Sylvan Library
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Massacre

What I struggle the most with is sideboarding. Are there sideboarding guidelines somewhere in the thread? I am trying to find something, but the Primer's first page sideboard guide seems to assume we are playing pyroblasts and at some point we are even playing Show and Tell apparently, which is a bit confusing:


Volcanic Island - Ponder: Be prepared to play the mirror. Note that it might just as well be UWR Delver or RUG Delver, but be cautious to cast Show and Tell until you saw more information

I know there isn't really anything real to strictly call a sideboarding guide, as different people play different flavors of the decks, and if you see X card, then not always Y card needs to be brought, or maybe you need Z. But that aside, some updated SB guidelines of what is generally good to bring in or be careful about would be nice. I was really considering playing Deathrite Shamans, not sure if MB or SB, but the card seems pretty good in the meta.

[cavalrywolfpack]

If you go back earlier in the primer, the author said he copied and pasted it directly from Show and Tell.

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[hovercraft]

I know a lot of japanese decks need to be viewed with a grain of salt due to how different their metas can be but this list look pretty fun if nothing else. Mono black Hybrid Depths-Reanimator. I feel like from a Reanimator stand point you would still want silver bullets like Iona and Elesh Norn in the 75. And Not of This World might be worth SB slots since it can protect Griselbrand as well.

http://mtg.bigmagic.net/article/2017/05/article/%E3%82%AB%E3%83%90%E3%83%AC%E3%83%BC%E3%82%B8/bmo09/027.html

スイス7位　Ohtake Ryo

土地
10 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage

クリーチャー
4 Vampire Hexmage
2 Grave Titan
2 Griselbrand
1 Platinum Angel

4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Thoughtseize
4 Exhume
4 Collective Brutality
3 Pithing Needle
2 Lotus Petal
2 Reanimate
1 Shallow Grave
1 Rite of Consumption

サイドボード
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Fatal Push
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Duress
1 Rite of Consumption
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Helm of Obedience

[Exodisma]

Howdy folks! Elves and occasional Maverick player here that started building depths after it won the Eternal champs, as I already had Bayous and the rest of the deck was relatively inexpensive. I played it a few times at the local weekly Legacy; although I enjoyed it, I generally prefer the more involved, varied games with the little green men. That said, and as great as Elves is in the current meta, I feel that depths is actually better positioned right now, so I brought it out tonight for a change. Here's the list I ran:

4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Crop Rotation
2 Expedition Map
1 Into the North
3 Not of This World
3 Pithing Needle
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress

Sideboard:
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Golgari Charm
1 Karakas
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Surgical Extraction

I don't keep detailed notes, but here's the rundown from memory.

Round 1:
I authoritatively beat my opponent's roll of 10 with boxcars and keep a solid hand; Duress, Hexmage, Stage, Urborg, couple regular lands. Turn 1 Urborg for duress reveals 2x Inquisition, Hexmage, Petal, Depths, and a few lands; after the surprise at finding the mirror, curse myself for giving him the turn 1 combo off my Urborg and have to take his petal to prevent it and pass. His inquisition takes my Hexmage, I topdeck a Thoughtseize for his Hexmage, and turn 3 draw a depths for a winning token a turn before he could make his own.
Game two had us both with a turn 3 token staring at each other; his came from stage and petals, leaving him with just a second stage in play and a few cards in hand, whereas mine was off a hexmage which left me with land superiority but nothing useful in hand. We passed back and forth a few turns, until he topped a Bayou to cast Sylvan Scrying for Steppe, but having used his land drop for the bayou he had to pass; I do-or-die drew a crop rotation for the win.

Result: Mirror 2-0 (record: 1-0)
Sideboard: +(Karakas, 2 Abrupt Decay), -(Expedition Map, 2 Elvish Spirit Guide)

Round 2:
I once again win the roll, keeping a decent hand with one side of the combo and open the game with a Thoughtseize; he reveals Nether Spirit, Scroll Rack, Mishra's Factory, and a Thoughtseize. I take the seize but can't find any gas myself until I'm dead to multiple factories and the spirit.
Game two has him do nothing turn 1, I drop a turn 1 Needle on Wasteland. He runs out a few factories into Liliana of the Veil, getting me to about 12 life with Liliana on 6 loyalty when I top a second Needle. I consider naming Factory to not die, but decide I'm better being on a 3 turn clock than getting ulted by Lili, so i name her. My very next draw was a third Needle, naming Factory, but a couple turns of draw-go later he hits a Scroll Rack. As he plays it, he asks with a smile where my fourth needle is, then passes. I draw for turn, smile back, and lay the card down: "Speak of the devil, and he shall appear: Needle on Scroll Rack". We share a laugh, with the adjacent players looking over in confusion; the boardstate at this point is him with a few swamps, two Factories, Wasteland, Liliana, and Scroll Rack; myself with just a handful of lands and the four needles naming all of his non-swamp permanents. I then draw three Hexmages in my next four cards to beat him down. I made a mistake in sideboarding this game, in forgetting to take out Not Of This World. I got minor confusion value when he and saw one on a Duress, later discarding it to Liliana at no real harm.
Game three has him turn one duress me of Sylvan Scrying, leaving Crucible, Spirit Guide, and a few lands. I draw a Thoughtseize back for a Hymn, then turn 2 Crucible off the Guide. He gets a Liliana that I kill with a Hexmage, we durdle for a while, then I find the combo for the win

Result: Monoblack Pox 2-1 (record 2-0)
Sideboard: +(Krosan Grip, Crucible of Worlds, 3 Abrupt Decay), -(G2: 3 Spirit Guide, 2 Expedition Map; G3: 3 Not Of This World, 2 Expedition Map)

Round 3:
My opponent had been next to me for both of the previous rounds, so I knew he was on BUG Delver. This was also his first time playing Legacy, so it was great to see him doing well. He lucked into some of the stranger matchups to boot; round one he beat Dredge, and two was against Stormscape land destruction (Stifle, Shadow of Doubt, Sinkhole, Vindicate, Snapcaster...)
Anyway, I once again win the roll and game one was a standard affair of discard into Urborg, Stage, and Depths for a turn three counter-proof token.
Game two he leads with a Thoughtseize, seeing Needle, Scrying, Rotation, and lands; he takes the Rotation. I turn one Needle on Wasteland, he attacks with a flipped Delver into Liliana, I end of turn make a token and kill him. He asks if there was anything he could have done, and I point out that if he hadn't attacked with Delver he could've blocked, then killed the token with Liliana. I did have a search for Steppe to get through, but didn't reveal it; gotta keep something for next lesson. I also let him know that he probably should have taken the Needle with his opening Seize, as it would keep Wasteland live as an out, although taking my combo-searchers is certainly defensible.
We played a third for fun and learning, and he managed to keep me off the combo long enough to kill me with his turn one delver.

Result: Delver, 2-0 (record 3-0)
Sideboard: +(3 Abrupt Decay, Crucible of Worlds), -(Expedition Map, 3 Elvish Spirit Guide)

Round 4:
Paired against a friendly face that I know to be on Merfolk. He offers a split, but I decline out of principle; even if the matchup weren't in my favour, I'm there to game, not "game", and prefer to let the chips fall where they may. 3-1 is a fair bit of credit, where 4-0 gets an Alliances Force of Will. Game on.
The final roll goes again in my favour, and my opponent unfortunately mulligans to five. I turn one Duress, seeing nothing but two-mana creatures, and there's nothing he could do about my turn two token.
Game two he opens with a vial, I turn one Thoughtseize taking a Force of Will, leaving him two Cursecatcher, Lord, and a Silvergill. My turn two Map is named by a Phyrexian Revoker off the top. In hindsight I should have taken the Lord, as he proceeded to curve out with another lord and a third Cursecatcher and brings me to 9 while I durdle a bit. He attacks for 10 with lord, 3 Cursecatcher, and Revoker; I Crop Rotate for Depths with a Stage and three other lands in play, but he correctly sacrifices enough Cursecatchers to keep me one mana shy of being able to activate the Stage. His attack is no longer lethal, but I fail to topdeck anything relevant and he kills me next turn.
Game three has me turn one Duress off basic swamp, which he Forces ditching True-name, and he plays a Vial. I turn two play Urborg, Lotus Petal, Vampire Hexmage, pass. His turn two is a Revoker, but he has no Cursecatcher to stop me from Crop Rotating off the Petal in response, turning my swamp into a Depths, and making a token for game.

Result: Merfolk, 2-1 (final record 4-0)
Sideboard: +3 Abrupt Decay, -(Expedition Map, 2 Elvish Spirit Guide)

Overall, seems my choice of deck was correct. Chance certainly went in my favour, with the coin flip mirror and dodging the one person on death & taxes, but the deck is definitely solid against the rest of the field. I didn't bring in most of my sideboard, and in fact the only cards I played were the needle and crucible against Pox, but it's a small sample size and I wouldn't change much, maybe trying to work in a Toxic Deluge and a Factory. Maindeck I've considered removing the NotWs, but it still covers some important angles and I'm the sort of person that likes to have that sort of insurance.

http://puu.sh/vHbz3/79fcd113be.jpg

[sigmanugary]

^Great writeup dude...DD Driver here as well, glad to hear the deck is lining up well in the new post-Top meta.

[wsurugby10]

First time playing Dark Depths at an event last night. We only had 6 so it was a small sample size but I felt the deck performed well. The competition was stiff and I had to face 2 SCG Open winners in my 3 matches. Here's the list I ran:

4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Crop Rotation
1 Expedition Map
1 Into the North
3 Not of This World
3 Pithing Needle
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard:
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Gloom
1 Karakas
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Lost Legacy


Here's what I can remember.

Round 1:
I get paired up with a longtime Reanimator player with SCG success and a GP Top 8 under his belt. Needless to say he's a great player and I assumed he was on UB Reanimator. Game 1 he has Griselbrand on turn 1 on the play. Not much I can do there. Game 2 I side in Karakas, Surgicals and Lost Legacy. I pretty much keep a hand that will make the the control deck and end up pulling it out with Sylvan Library and Karakas on the board with a Lost Legacy on Griselbrand. Game 3 is a real drag. We both keep relatively slow hands and our on the Defensive. Ultimately, he wasn't drawing action and I misplayed. I attacked into an Ashen Rider forgetting the when it dies effect.

Result: UB Reanimator 1-2 (record: 0-1)

Round 2:
This round I'm paired up against DnT and I win the roll. I keep a hand that is straight gas with protection. I believe it consisted Dark Depths, Urborg, Vampire Hexmage, Not of this World, Thoughtseize, Lotus Petal and a Crop Rotation. I thoughtseize turn 1 and take a Swords to Plowshares leaving his hand pretty empty. He draws Karakas and plays it turn 2 and I end of turn make Lage with Not of this World backup and win on turn 3. Game 2 I side in an extra Pithing Needle, 2x Gloom and I believe 2x Abrupt Decays. My opening hand is absolutely nuts. Urborg, Pithing Needle, Gloom, Dark Depths, Hexmage, Verdant, Thespian Stage. Turn 1 I draw another Pithing Needle and play Urborg followed by Needle on Wasteland. Turn 2 I draw Thoughtseize and play needle on Karakas and Thoughtseize him. Turn 3 I play Dark Depths and cast Gloom and he scoops. I don't think this is normally how easy the match is but I was happy to get out 2-0.

Result: Death and Taxes 2-0 (record 1-1)

Round 3:
Game 3 put me up against a SCG Legacy Open Winner on Jund Lands. This felt like the mirror expect he had everything and more. I'm assuming this matchup is very bad for us. Game 1 he did a pretty good job eating my hand away with Raven's Crime and keeping my land count down with recurring Wastelands. I couldn't find any answers in Pithing Needle for the longest time. Eventually we stalled out and I had a Hexmage, Depths and Stage online with mana to activate. In the end he ended up misplaying giving me a Lage for the win. I believe he should have double Wastelanded me but missed it. Game 2 his deck had everything. I mulled to 5 without a ton in hand. My Scry didn't help and Liliana followed up by Wasteland and Loam did it's job perfectly. I scooped pretty early. Game 3 I had one of those very fast hands we like to see against decks without Counter magic. On top of that he mulled to 5. Turn 1 I play Urborg and Thoughtseize him revealing almost nothing. I saw that the doors were open and had Lage on turn 3 for the win.

Result: Jund Lands, 2-1 (record 2-1)


Overall, I had a ton of fun with the deck. Although we're trying to go quickly I didn't feel dead in those longer grindy matchups against Reanimator when I took on the role of control. I think I just need more reps with the deck. What would be really helpful for me and possibly others is if we could throw together a side boarding guide against decks in the field. I think many matches are won and lost in side boarding and I know I could use some help.

[chapman24]

I am enjoying the deck and doing well with it but I keep getting steamrolled by Death & Taxes. Any tips for the match up or good sideboard cards. I have bringing in 8 cards, and having no luck. Just to many cards to answer. Karakas, wasteland, phyrexian Revoker, StP, Path, needle, and the 3/1 blinky flyer. I just can't answer it all.

[wsurugby10]

I am enjoying the deck and doing well with it but I keep getting steamrolled by Death & Taxes. Any tips for the match up or good sideboard cards. I have bringing in 8 cards, and having no luck. Just to many cards to answer. Karakas, wasteland, phyrexian Revoker, StP, Path, needle, and the 3/1 blinky flyer. I just can't answer it all.

Gloom and Dread of Night are good against DnT. Not of this World answers Karakas, Swords and Path not to mention eating removal with your discard. Phyrexian Revoker dies to Abrupt Decay/Toxic Deluge.

[solnox]

Pick your battles is how I beat DnT. Also rite of consumption. Don't blind Needle wasteland, needle only when you know for sure you need to answer something you'll probably lose to like Vial in flickerwisp.. or Karakas if you cant find GQ. or whatever you need. I really dont think you need Dread of Night. Their problem cards come mostly in the form of land hate +removal spells. Flickerwisp still tags marit lage even if theres a dread. Rite of Consumption solves a lot of these problems imo. As long as you can get to making the actual token, you win. Dodges all the removal spells. I usually board out all the fast mana as a fast marit lage kill is fairly unrealistic.

[adrieng]

Now that miracle is gone you have ton of space in the side, no need to play rite of consumption (it is just garbage) just go with a playset of dread of night and 2 toxic deluge main.
Maze is very important in this matchup I have one maindeck and one in side to stall before the removal.
Death and taxes is a bye if they don't play magus of the moon with my version.

My current version



// 60 Maindeck
// 8 Artifact
4 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map

// 4 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage

// 4 Instant
4 Crop Rotation

// 24 Land
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Blooming Marsh
2 Llanowar Wastes
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Khalni Garden
1 Maze of Ith

// 20 Sorcery
4 Duress
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Inquisition of Kozilek


// 15 Sideboard
// 5 Artifact
SB: 3 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Sphere of Resistance

// 4 Enchantment
SB: 4 Dread of Night

// 4 Instant
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction

// 2 Land
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Maze of Ith


// 3 Tokens
// 3 Creature
1 Elemental
1 Marit Lage
1 Plant

[P-E]

how has been probe cabal+khalni for you ardieng ?
also don't you miss some decay ?

[adrieng]

how has been probe cabal+khalni for you ardieng ?
also don't you miss some decay ?

Clearly probe+cabal+garden is the best discard for my list I mean cause khalni garden is not good when you play lotus petal or guide ;
but in my list it is awesome.

My list has more discard more thread density than turbo depth. I have been testing others lists with petal and spirit and I am quite sure they are way worst.

Decay are not needed anymore because miracle is dead, I prefer ratching bomb in side to answer needle/cotv and random magus of the moon not counting the two for one you can do versus grixis and such.
Also I didn't like playing a basic swamp and forest in the main, the mana base is already tight and those basics make it worst. Imperial painter should see less play now that top is gone ; blood moon shouldn't see so much play and discard is a good way to fight it ; ratchet bomb is not so bad against it either.
An other point is that against equipment maze is clearly the way to go you can copy maze with thespian to stall and having two maze one main one side is a very good options if the first one gets wasted.


Notice with increasing of discard combo such as ant which I had a hard time with previous versions to beat (with the 4 library+3 decay version) are correct/good matchup now.


So for sideboard guide I am doing like that :


tempo without goyf (so with YP) + 3 ratchet bomb -2 duress -1 scrying
with goyf -2 deluge -1 scrying -1 duress +1 maze +3 ratchet bomb

you can bring some surgical if you expect your opponent to bring some cutting more discard it is very important to have a good amount of tutors in those matchups.


death and taxes : +4 dread of night +1 maze +2 bomb -4 duress -1 map -2 crop

UR delver : +3 bomb +1 maze -4 needle here you shld keep fast hands

ant : -4 needle -2 scrying -1 gq -1 maze -2 deluge +4 surgical +1 bog +2 sphere +3 bomb

bomb are there to destroy led/petal that ae casted to protect from discard

BR rea: +4 surgical +1 bog -2 deluge -1 GQ -2 scrying bring in ratchet bomb if you expect blood moon after side needle on sneak attack can be good if you already have crop/surigcal in hand

sneak /show : +4 surgical +3 bomb -2 deluge -1 GQ -4 scrying Here maybe playing a karakas in side shld be an option if you expect a lot of sneak show.

Tell me if you want others matchup sideboard guide strategy.

[P-E]

Thanks a lot for all the explanations
your version is more "control" than turbo so ^^

[adrieng]

Thanks a lot for all the explanations
your version is more "control" than turbo so ^^

Yeah less all in, more consistant more protection and such^^

[Namida]

How do you all feel about Not of this World? If I'm playing against a deck with Swords to Plowshares, it feels great, but other than that I curse myself every time I draw it. Miracles just doesn't exist anymore, so I feel like the share of white decks might be low enough to trim Not of this World if not just move it to the sideboard. I actually played a version of the deck last weekend that replaced the 3 copies with Toxic Deluge, Abrupt Decay, and Mishra's Factory. I actually ended up playing against Maverick and Stoneblade in my rounds, but I didn't feel bad about it. I was in Tokyo at the time though, and I know my local metagame just doesn't have Death and Taxes players. Overall, have all of you felt like you ran into enough removal spells to warrant keeping Not of this World in your main?

[filln]

I've been a big proponent of using two or three Rite of Consumption in the main to replace Not of This World. I still keep two in my sideboard though for extra support and because I just like the card.

[Serch]

I've been a big proponent of using two or three Rite of Consumption in the main to replace Not of This World. I still keep two in my sideboard though for extra support and because I just like the card.

I'd started to test this with good results. Boseiju was brilliant, not only for "rite" works well with "crops" or "sylscrying" too.

http://i.imgur.com/XaZJUJl.png

[DNSolver]

Boseiju can't cast Crop Rotation?

Against most of the decks with counterspells in the current meta (Delver decks), Marit Lage is good enough and can't be killed easily. Boseiju is unnecessary. I would rather have the Bog maindeck to be better against combo / lands G1.

[PeterSouth]

Hi all, first time playing legacy and this deck today at tournament and had alot of fun and learned alot. Been brewing maybe a month on my deck every day now and attached is the list I played below. I foremost wanted to maximize chances of an opening hand 1 cc discard spell and have consistent combo without stalling out.

4 dark depths
4 thespians stage
4 vampire hexmage
4 lotus petals
4 lim-dul's vault
4 thoughtseize
4 duress
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 pithing needle
2 abrupt decay
4 crop rotation
4 sylvan scrying
4 mana confluence
4 city of brass
4 gemstone mines
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth

SB
4 innocent blood
3 diabolic edict
1 culling scales
2 pithing needle
1 dread of night
2 abrupt decay
2 fairie macabre

I had 1-3 record. Lots of misplays on my part including playing though a standstill instead of just waiting through it.
-First I went up against some UR deck with lots of counters, lightning bolt, snapcaster, clique. Almost had one game but a lucky singleton repeal got my token.
-Second game went against BUG deck with tarmogoyf, force of will, TNN, and DRS. Went 2-1 and also won a fun fourth. I don't think that deck had many ways to kill my token and my first turn discard plan worked good.
-Third game was D&T. That was kinda miserable. Lots of wasteland, karakas, plow, path, rishadan, aether vial. My pithing needles did a lot of work and I made a huge mistake of forgetting to side in my dread of night. One neat interaction was that I found it may help to copy rishadan port to tap a karakas. 0-2.
-Fourth game was BR reanimator and went 1-2. I had nut hand all three games with hexmage, urborg, and depths, and sometimes a pithing needle and discard. What really screwed me was he had annex both games I lost. I think I may have misplayed going for the quick kill by ditching card first turn where maybe next time I would wait to get mana. If I had spirit guides I would have won those games.

I didn't have much luck with the lim-dul's vaults, but I want to try it more. Maybe go down to 2 as I had a hand of two one game and that stunk.

[filln]

Boseiju can't cast Crop Rotation?

Against most of the decks with counterspells in the current meta (Delver decks), Marit Lage is good enough and can't be killed easily. Boseiju is unnecessary. I would rather have the Bog maindeck to be better against combo / lands G1.

I guess only when Sphere of Resistance is out.

[uncletiggy]

And thalia and vryns wingmare... boseiju isn't terrible, bog is a better bullet tho.

[filln]

And thalia and vryns wingmare... boseiju isn't terrible, bog is a better bullet tho.

Good point, though Boseiju's can't-be-countered ability against D&T sounds like a bad time.

[chaosjace]

I think I will be keeping my 'not' of this world in, I regularly browse other threads on this board and people are siding in bounce spells with miracles gone, karakas and swords still exist in decks and I would rather be prepared for that.

[Namida]

I think I will be keeping my 'not' of this world in, I regularly browse other threads on this board and people are siding in bounce spells with miracles gone, karakas and swords still exist in decks and I would rather be prepared for that.

This is where I'm coming from on the issue:

Karakas still exists, but how many decks punish you for not having more answers to Karakas in game 1? I think it's just Death and Taxes and Lands that tax your Ghost Quarter and Pithing Needles to the point that you'd be hurting for not having Not of this World in the maindeck, and if you're seeing them with frequency then I can't argue against Not of this World.

Swords still exists, but how many decks punish you for not being able to counter Swords in game 1? As in "I must go off ASAP into a possible Swords to Plowshares, and if they have it then I'm up 20 life but that just doesn't matter" levels of being punished. That's basically only Death and Taxes, right? You have 8 discard spells, Crop Rotation into Sejiri Steppe, and you gain 20 life and lots of time to set up another 20/20 even if Swords does happen.

What decks are bringing in bounce spells where you would think "I am happy keeping Not of this World in?" For example, I know Storm is playing more bounce spells now that Abrupt Decay isn't a 100% necessity, but Not of this World is one of the first cards that I would remove from my deck against Storm. I imagine the kind of deck which only needs to keep a problem off the board for only one turn isn't the kind of matchup where you can afford to draw a ton of dead cards, and I don't think it's worth it to take on the risk of having Not of this World sit in your hand as your gameplan against removal that may not even be there in the first place.

[chaosjace]

Okay those are very convincing arguments.
Do you advocate for rite of consumption or maybe there is something better? Maybe more discard or speed?
Actually if we are cutting that I might try out dark confidant and deathrite shaman

[jdmdave]

Alright guys, need to qualify for a local large prize pool invitation only legacy tournament. As much as I like fucking around with (and winning I might add) with portent miracles, what is the latest BG stocklist? Can I just run the one I went 11-4 w/ @ Chiba, or is there new technology out there

[chaosjace]

Alright guys, need to qualify for a local large prize pool invitation only legacy tournament. As much as I like fucking around with (and winning I might add) with portent miracles, what is the latest BG stocklist? Can I just run the one I went 11-4 w/ @ Chiba, or is there new technology out there

I have been watching your Miracles posts and enjoying your results (I just have nothing to contribute to that thread)
The list you are looking at is probably fine for what you want. The only things that seem to be going on are
1. no more not of this world.
2. speed is the key(from my personal experience)
I recommend at least 8 discard, there is room for more now if you feel further disruption is necessary.
people are suggesting rites of consumption but if you are expecting a fair amount of D&T, and if they are competent, they can swords their own creature to survive, I leave that up to you, some other notes I have to add are that your own surgical can save your depths from opposing surgicals if you are worried, and rotating into bog on yourself can save your depths, in REALLY bad situations. not sure if this helps you but here it is.

[Namida]

I'm unsure what to play instead of Not of this World, but ideally it would be a card with more utility. The last event I went to, I swapped out my copies of NotW with an Abrupt Decay, a Toxic Deluge, and a Mishra's Factory. I went 2-2 beating Maverick and Stoneblade, but lost to Blood Moon decks twice. I didn't get a really good feel for the cards that I was testing. I think the main use of Not of this World is a counter to Swords to Plowshares, so I am considering Sylvan Library instead--you get to dig for your discard against Swords, look for your Needles against Wastelands, and abuse the card if your opponent gives you 20 extra life.

On another note...Do any of the players here have experience with Drop of Honey? I was trying to think of cards that would be okay against Death and Taxes without being okay against *only* Death and Taxes. Drop of Honey seems good because it buys time against creature decks and puts your opponent in a bad position when it comes to playing out their creatures. I like that it also kills True-Name Nemesis and other untargetable creatures. To be honest though, I don't have enough experience playing this deck through grindy matches to know if "buying time" is actually what you want, and giving your opponent the ability to just wait out the Drop of Honey might make it worse than just playing Toxic Deluge. I'm going to try it out this weekend anyway, but I'd like to hear other people's opinions on it.

[chaosjace]

I think I am going to go 2x surgical, 1x sylvan library in my Not of this world slots. Surgical CAN protect yourself against opposing surgicals, but other than that I love the effect. Remove whatever they do first from teh game from fetches to ponders, not to mention uh reanimator? being really popular right now.

[downtoonelife]

Has anyone tried Sylvan Safekeeper instead on the NotW slot? It can protect you from everything that targets Marit Lage. It is also an answer against Diabolic Edict aside from Khalni Garden/Dryad Arbor/Mishra's Factory. It protects you also from Blessed Alliance if you attack it with Marit Lage. You can go 2-3 maindeck or 2 main and 1 sb. My concern is more with my match against Elves. I'm not sure if my opponent then just got a good hand or Elves is really a lot faster than our deck.

[jdmdave]

I'm not quite sure why you guys are so against NOTW. The card was an absolute allstar for me at the GP as a 2 of. If anything, I'd rather go to discard spells 9-10 before considering direct protection replacements.

[Namida]

I'm not quite sure why you guys are so against NOTW. The card was an absolute allstar for me at the GP as a 2 of. If anything, I'd rather go to discard spells 9-10 before considering direct protection replacements.

In your 15 rounds at the GP, how many times did you cast Not of this World against a deck that didn't have Miracles in it? That's why I'm against NotW right now. It depends on your metagame, but my opinion is that NotW mainly reads "Counter target Swords to Plowshares" in a format low on white removal. The card is a 7 mana do-nothing if your opponent is playing Delver or Combo (and it looks like most of the format is doing one of these two things). NotW is a fine card for the sideboard, but in my maindeck I would rather play cards that have at least have *some* text in Game 1 against what is popular now, rather than metagame against decks that just aren't showing up.

You have a point about playing extra discard. I was thinking about Sylvan Library mainly because I still wanted the NotW slot to be a sort of anti-white slot, just with something less narrow than NotW.

[jdmdave]

Fair enough. I cast it 9-10x at the GP (6-7 vs Karakas, 2-3 vs JTMS, 1x vs Venser)

[Nealdrox]

Has Sylvan Library been ok as a 1 or 2 of in the main for those who cut or trimmed down on NOTW?

[wsurugby10]

Has Sylvan Library been ok as a 1 or 2 of in the main for those who cut or trimmed down on NOTW?

I run it along side of Not of this World and it is great. It really helps when it's on board during grindy games.

[caseyc]

Alright guys, need to qualify for a local large prize pool invitation only legacy tournament. As much as I like fucking around with (and winning I might add) with portent miracles, what is the latest BG stocklist? Can I just run the one I went 11-4 w/ @ Chiba, or is there new technology out there

I think the most significant anti-DnT and Lands tech is Rite of Consumption (I run 4x in SB). However, based on a joke by a member in this group I have realized that Beckon Apparition is exactly what we want as a 1-2x in our SB. It is graveyard hate, anti-edict tech, and anti-Surgical-Depths tech. It comes in against BUG and/or Delver decks because those decks tend to bring in both Diabolic Edict and Surgical against us--and those cards are basically the only way they can steal games from us--Beckon Apparition nerfs that plan, as well as helping in other relevant match-ups. Beckon is the REAL DEAL!

I am also running 4x Chalice of the Void in my SB because it makes the Elves, Delver, and Storm matchups a bye. I also run a little less discard to compensate.

I am on the fence about NotW. I went down to 2 in my deck, still in the main. But it makes it so we can beat a Karakas without finding a Needle or GQ, and just helps us not lose to random Sumberge/Chain of Vapor/StP, etc. Sometimes it is a dead card, but when it is needed--it wins the game.

[Nealdrox]

Ive enjoyed Sphere of Resistance over Chalice. That's just my preference.

[Namida]

I am on the fence about NotW. I went down to 2 in my deck, still in the main. But it makes it so we can beat a Karakas without finding a Needle or GQ, and just helps us not lose to random Sumberge/Chain of Vapor/StP, etc. Sometimes it is a dead card, but when it is needed--it wins the game.

The other side of the coin though is that NotW can straight up lose you the game because it is *completely* dead in some matchups, and you don't need NotW because you're actually playing other answers to removal and harmful activated abilities. Basically, at this point if you're playing NotW in your maindeck, I think you need to be asking yourself if you're playing against enough maindeck answers to Marit Lage to warrant taking on the risk of playing a card that does nothing at all except protect Marit Lage.

I wouldn't want NotW in against decks that play Submerge (I'd rather just use discard, put no Forests in play, or remove my Forests before making Marit Lage) and Chain of Vapor (I'd rather be disrupting the opposing combo than play cards that don't interact with the opponent).

You all have a point: Swords to Plowshares certainly isn't the only thing you can counter. If you're playing against a bunch of decks that play multiple Karakas/always have access to the 1 Karakas in their deck and you're not finding Ghost Quarter or your Needles are actually taxed doing other things, then I agree that you should be playing NotW. The only decks that fit that description are Lands and Death and Taxes. I think it's feasible to claim those matchups are bad enough and our other matchups good enough that it makes sense to lose some edge against Combo and Delver to preboard against Lands and Death and Taxes; however, both of those decks are rare in my own metagame, and the online metagame is currently one where those decks are rare (Rishadan Port is restrictively expensive; Lands is probably getting eaten alive in a sea of combo).

[Nealdrox]

Very good points. I'm at 3 NOTW and I plan on trimming to 1.

[Lio]

I was very happy with my standard list at mkm Frankfurt (27th place of 440 people).

If I would play a deck again (and surely I would), I would make few changes. I had 2*NotW main and one SB. Given so many StP decks running around, I believe two are OK. I won some games thanks to NotW i wouldn't win otherwise (i.e. With discard). Number of Karakas' is also very high - Dnt, Maverick, stoneblades, loam, lands, storm postboard. One or two rites could make a job here as well though.

Problem with additional discard is that it slows you down sometimes and you can't cast it in their turn. Or they just hide an answer with brainstorm and draw it next turn.

Another thing is dread of night. This is applicable only in Dnt matchup. I am more afraid of blood moon decks than Dnt and so I would rather add another answer to blood moon - krosan grip (also kills omniscience in omni show which is tough matchup).

I think Sylvan is not as much needed as before and could be whatever you need to.

[hovercraft]

I have moved my NOTW to the side for now for an extra Pithing Needle and extra discard spell. But I am not in a Karakas heavy meta right now.

[uncletiggy]

@lio-Golgari charm splits the difference between grip and dread of night while still being relevant vs elves or an ambitious empty the warrens.

[Lio]

yes, you are right. I had Golgari Charm in my SB exactly for this purpose. But with all the Sneak and Show decks, I believe at least one Krosan Grip is a must nowadays (even as an addition to Golgari Charm).

[ovate]

If you're going to cut the NoTWs, you'd better be running Expedition Maps over Into the Norths. More answers to Karakas are needed that won't further tax Pithing Needles.

[jdmdave]

I'm going to run this list at the qualifier

* 12 Combo lands
* 1 GQ
* 1 Sejiri
* 1 Bog
* 2 Bayou
* 2 Verdant
* 2 Basics
* 3 Blooming Marsh
* 1 Factory
* 4 Crop Rotation
* 3 Into
* 4 Tseize
* 4 Duress
* 2 IoK
* 4 Sylvan
* 4 Petal
* 4 ESG
* 4 Needle
* 4 Hexmage


Sideboard (Would like to work in 2ish trackers). Meta is Leovold/Storm/Delver heavy.

* 3 Surgical
* 3 Decay
* 1 Karakas
* 4 Sphere
* 1 Deluge
* 1 Charm
* 2 NoTW

[inevitablepnut]

I play lands but I've been thinking rug depths might be really strong. Any thoughts here?

[tapp]

I play lands but I've been thinking rug depths might be really strong. Any thoughts here?

The decks in this thread are running black for Hexmage / Urborg / Discard. What does dropping black for RU give, and how does that differ from a more standard RUG lands?

[inevitablepnut]

The decks in this thread are running black for Hexmage / Urborg / Discard. What does dropping black for RU give, and how does that differ from a more standard RUG lands?

Oh oops I meant bug! Lol

My thoughts here are you loose speed but gain some other outs. Almost like bug control with depths. I have no idea if this would work but I feel it could be quite strong.

[jdmdave]

Go to the RG Combolands thread

[Namida]

jdmdave, what do you like about playing 2 Verdant Catacombs instead of 4? If you're not playing NotW in the main, how do you feel about ovate's suggestion about Expedition Map over Into the North? Overall I like the list, let us know how it works for you.

[Lio]

I'm going to run this list at the qualifier

* 12 Combo lands
* 1 GQ
* 1 Sejiri
* 1 Bog
* 2 Bayou
* 2 Verdant
* 2 Basics
* 3 Blooming Marsh
* 1 Factory
* 4 Crop Rotation
* 3 Into
* 4 Tseize
* 4 Duress
* 2 IoK
* 4 Sylvan
* 4 Petal
* 4 ESG
* 4 Needle
* 4 Hexmage


Sideboard (Would like to work in 2ish trackers). Meta is Leovold/Storm/Delver heavy.

* 3 Surgical
* 3 Decay
* 1 Karakas
* 4 Sphere
* 1 Deluge
* 1 Charm
* 2 NoTW

Nice list, but I wouldn't play Mishras Factory maindeck. Preboard, this land has basically zero utility, only producing coroless mana that can fuel up your only two spells (Sylvan and into the north). If you need an extra land, play Karakas maindeck. Or switch it for some Sb card - Deluge or Decay.

Also with two basics and two Bayou, third fetchland could replace one Blooming Marsh. More options to fetch basic and less situations where you topdeck tapped Marsh instead of another land.

Otherwise Sb looks solid for open meta.

Now I noticed you run 25 lands - why so?

[jdmdave]

I like Into the North because it makes the deck faster, particularly when combined with fast mana.

As for 24 lands, the deck technically runs 4 lands that don't serve as mana sources, so I like to err on the side of caution. I wrote the manabase down incorrectly, should be 12 combo lands, 1 GQ, 1 factory, 1 sejiri, 1 bog, 2 verdant, 2 basics, 2 bayou, 2 marsh.

Here is the correctly formatted list

* 12 combo lands
* 2 Marsh
* 2 Bayou
* 2 Verdant
* 2 Basics
* 1 GQ
* 1 Steppe
* 1 Bog
* 1 Factory
* 4 Tseize
* 4 Duress
* 3 Needle
* 4 Crop Rotation
* 4 Sylvan
* 3 Into
* 4 Hexmage
* 4 ESG
* 4 Lotus Petal
* 2 IoK

Sideboard

* 4 Sphere
* 1 Needle
* 1 Deluge
* 1 Karakas
* 3 Surgical
* 3 Abrupt
* 2 NoTW

[Nealdrox]

Almost spot on with my list. Sphere has been stellar out of the board.

[solnox]

Can anyone tell me why they're still enamored with blooming marsh and expedition map? Playing map in my experience has been awful. Blooming marsh has lost me a ton of games where I need a 4th land to pop depths and I draw it over another fetch or bayou. Submerge is rarely played and I feel citp clauses are just so bad

[adrieng]

Can anyone tell me why they're still enamored with blooming marsh and expedition map? Playing map in my experience has been awful. Blooming marsh has lost me a ton of games where I need a 4th land to pop depths and I draw it over another fetch or bayou. Submerge is rarely played and I feel citp clauses are just so bad

Expedtition map is clearly of the power level of crop rotation ; turn one map should be forced of will if opponent doesn't have an answer to marit lage ; it enables turn three token with urborg/depth/thespian which race most decks
It also makes the deck less dependant to colored sources.

If you play the turbo list which I don't recommand cause it has less tutor ; less interaction ie more autistic list/all in ; dropping expedition map might be a solution with more speed cards like into the north but you are way less consistant and solid against hate.

As for blooming marsh submerge see some play in infect and some others decks, which might cause you to just lose the match if it is not an issue for you go for bayou ; I don't have any problem with blooming marsh or in very rares occasions.

[Nealdrox]

I just don't know if I like maps more than North. I could do a split and test it.

[chaosjace]

in my testing with map, I had some openers like Marsh, Urborg, Map, Lotus Petal, Spirit Guide, Thoughtseize, Duress, if the map had been into the north it would have been a lot more useful. I feel like map is too slow so I personally will not be playing it. It might work in more control/slower builds but that is not where I am trying to be.

[tarmogoat]

in my testing with map, I had some openers like Marsh, Urborg, Map, Lotus Petal, Spirit Guide, Thoughtseize, Duress, if the map had been into the north it would have been a lot more useful. I feel like map is too slow so I personally will not be playing it. It might work in more control/slower builds but that is not where I am trying to be.

That opener with ItN instead of map is still not a kill, you still need to draw a Vampire Hexmage, a Thespian's Stage or a Crop Rotation off the top which makes Map the better card. If you draw a Dark Depths or another copy of ItN it just becomes useless, whereas map will let you combo anyway. Map costs 1 mana and you can sit behind it waiting to make a move, be it search a Bojuka Bog if opponent is putting some dredge pressure or setting up threshold, find the missing combo land, or get a Sejiri Steppe if you happen to draw the combo naturally and need to get past a blocker. Map > ItN.
ItN only seems better when you have a good opener including Urborg and Stage/Hexmage, other than that it seems pretty bad.

[hovercraft]

Has anyone tested Ancient Stirrings lately, I've never tried it but it seems like it could work same role as Map or ItN? Hits lands, needles, petals, maps, NOTW. Doesn't dig very deep though.

[jdmdave]

Play what you like. There were numerous instances at GP Chiba where ITTN led to a T2 20/20, whereas a map would've been too slow.

[Nealdrox]

I really do think I'll do a 2/1 split on the side of map for Louisville since I will be having a Karakas MB. The utility to grab my silver bullets leads me this way.

[DNSolver]

Expedition Map is significantly better vs Delver because it is a bit cheaper to cast, can be cast turn 1 before you have to worry about soft permission (and if they FORCE it you are super excited), doesn't expose Depths to Wasteland + Surgical immediately, and can fetch situational lands EOT. I've had it Revoker'd or Needle'd before and it worked out quite well because my opponent would rather shut down Map than Stage/Hexmage(???). Decay sucks sometimes, but you usually are trying to get Needle down through Decays in Decay matchups, so that's fine.

If you are boarding Into the North out after G1 in the Delver matchup then I guess that's ok? Definitely play snow basics PLEASE. I saw someone at my local shop who had Into the North with only Depths as targets.

[jdmdave]

Won legacy fnm with the deck.

How would you build a meta to crush a leovold, eldrazi, & storm heavy meta?

[adrieng]

went 4-1 yesterday beat death and taxes 2-0 elf 2-0 pox 2-0 lost to food chain 1-2 (we played for fun and I won then 4-5 games without losing any) then omni show 2-0

[solnox]

@DNSolver

After our epic match, I made it to the finals before losing to elves :)

[DNSolver]

Nice! Congrats.

For everyone else's benefit, I played Turbo Depths and Solnox played Maverick.

[caseyc]

I won a 14 person GPT today to get my byes for Vegas :-) I was pleased with how the deck performed in the fluctuating meta; I didn't have amazing hands but generally played pretty conservative and cautious which worked out in my favor. I'll attach my list below:

Lands (23):
4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian's Stage
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Bayou
1x Llanowar Wastes
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Snow-Covered Forest
1x Snow-Covered Swamp

Creatures (8):
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Vampire Hexmage

Spells (29):
4x Lotus Petal
4x Crop Rotation
4x Sylvan Scrying
3x Into the North
2x Sylvan Library
2x Not of this World
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Duress
1x Collective Brutality
4x Thoughtseize
3x Pithing Needle

SB:
4x Rite of Consumption
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Krosan Grip
1x Karakas
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Beckon Apparition

Round 1 versus Eldrazi (2-0)
Both games I had a pretty quick token that he couldn't disrupt

Round 2 versus Lands (2-0)
He was new to the deck and new to legacy. Game 1 I had a good hand for picking apart lands and ended up copying his Depths with my Stage and swinging through Maze of Ith with NotW. Game 2 I got him with Rite of Consumption after going down to 5 life drawing extra cards off Sylvan Library, assuming he boarded out P-Fire. He didn't but luckily he couldn't find one in time.

Round 3 versus Turbo Depths (ID)
We both knew what we were on and agreed to split as we were both 2-0 in a 4 round tourney, and the mirror seemed obviously coin-flippy. However, we decided to play it out because I had never actually played the mirror and I figure it will be more common so it was good experience. Game 1 I think he had Karakas maindeck... I ended up copying it then GQing his Karakas and making a token on his endstep for the win. Game 2 I sided in 4x Chalice, 4x Rite, 2x Abrupt Decay 1x Karakas. I ended up Chalicing him out of the game. My assumption is that Chalice is unlikely out of TD, and in the mirror it might be good to board in my Chalices because my deck is built to play around them better, and maybe be on a Rite plan. But I really have no idea. Feedback on the mirror would be appreciated :-)

Round 4 versus Grixis Delver (ID)
We ID.

Top 8 (I am top seed) versus Maverick (2-1)
Game one he tries to play around me having NotW for his potential Karakas off a Knight activation (I don't) and ends up blowing up Pithing Needle and trying to Wasteland me when I activate Stage forgetting I also had a Hexmage out to respond with. Game two I have a strong hand but he Tsieze's my Into the North and I can't find a tutor or Depths all game. He has nothing going but I end up dying to 3 Mother of runes and a Renegade Rallier. Shameful. Game 3 I forget exactly what happens but I win.

Top 4 versus Grixis Delver (2-0)
Game one I am able to make a token through two wastelands because he can't find a clock. Game two he surgicals my Depths after I make a token but doesn't actually run Submerge or Diabolic Edict so I am able to get him.

Finals versus 12 Post (2-0)
I was a bit worried because this guy had just 2-0ed the other Turbo Depths player. Game 1 is a little grindy but I end up getting it. Game 2 is very grindy. At one point I Thoughtsieze him and see Show and Tell, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Repeal, Crop Rotation, Crop Rotation, Expedition Map. Gross. I take a Crop rotation because I have a Sylvan scrying to go get Karakas for his Emrakul and NotW for his Repeal. Later he activates Eye of Ugin and fetches new Emrakul, threatening to be able to cast it the next turn. On my turn I make a Marit Lage token, in the process Crop Rotating away my Karakas so if he takes my next turn he can't kill my token. He ends up not hitting a land and I win. Somewhere in Game 2 (it was a long one) I have made a token and swing once, putting him to 3, he gets a Glacial Chasm. On my turn I have Scrying for Ghost Quarter... but draw a Rite of Consumption and in my excitement about this new tech, cast it into his Glacial Chasm. I lost my token, do 0 damage, and gain 0 life. Somehow I still win that game....

Overall, it was a fun, well-run though small tournament. I got my byes! And some cash, some of which bought me my last Verdant Catacombs. I think the things I learned: just because Turbo is in the name, we don't have to go fast. Sometimes just tight, conservative play wins games even if we let them go a little long. Maverick can be kinda a tough matchup. I need to learn the mirror. 12 post actually has a lot of ways to disrupt us. And, last but not least, Rite of Consumption does not get around Glacial Chasm :-)

[ckross01]

Went 4-3 in the MTGO Legacy Monthly playing BUG Depths. Overall did really well going into last round I was 4-2 and lost to Griselpuff on Grixis Delver.

Played Negator77 's BUG Depths list but dropped a Surgical and played an extra Abrupt.


I was wondering what others though of playing a few Fatal push in the side?

[pernicious dude]

Went 3/3 in a 61 deck tourney in Hartford, CT.
The last time I played Legacy it was called Type 1.5.
Love the deck, felt solid, I just need to play a bunch more.

1. Too eager against Shardless BUG. Force is a card.
2. Bojuka Bog and then Faerie Macabre and Karakas wrecked RB reanimator.
3. Multi-misplayed my way to death against Loam Pox. Also Hymn is a card.
4. T2 Lage twice against Elves. Game 2 NoTW against his Crop to Karakas.
5. Eaten by cloudpost eldrazi.
6. Fast enough against cloudpost eldrazi. Needle Karakas.

Didn't seem to be D&T anywhere in the room. Never faced StP or Submerge.

How do we side against eldrazi? T2 Thoughnot and a couple of Reality Smashers is tough to face, even with a Lage.
I took out Bog and Steppe for Boseiju and Karakas. Both are dead effects while Boseiju beats Warping Wail, and Karakas doesn't CIPT.
I sided out Map and NoTW for Natural State and Abrupt Decay#2 against Needle on Stage, figuring Map is slow and NoTW is dead.
Unfortunately, NoTW is not dead in that matchup, with Karakas and Endbringer. Endbringer's a bastard, shoots Vampires and blanks Avatars.

My only maindeck oddity is Dryad Arbor over Blooming Marsh. Marsh might CIPT anyway, and Arbor can block/ sac to edict.

4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Vampire Hexmage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Dryad Arbor (surprise blocker a couple times)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
1 Into the North (sided out pretty often)
1 Expedition Map (sided out every match but Pox)
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Pithing Needle
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Rite of Consumption
1 Not of This World (sided out pretty often)
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 1 Natural State
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Massacre

https://photos-2.dropbox.com/t/2/AAA_gc6zFjXMS-giJXrdVz7hxzq_ej8yUa1pyyUPM7Wohw/12/7893586/jpeg/32x32/1/_/1/2/Marit%20Lage%20very%20small.jpeg/EK6S7wUYk9QHIAcoBw/_4KdckDF8Cr8NzG4WPrsK-dzWQRWooE6p2TKZ5tD7Ak?size=2048x1536&size_mode=3

[Namida]

4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe


3 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Crop Rotation
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Sylvan Scrying
1 Sylvan Library
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Sideboard:
1 Karakas
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Drop of Honey
3 Sphere of Resistance
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
2 Not of this World

I decided this 75 for the event I played in. Like I said before, I don't like NotW as a completely dead draw against combo; I liked jdmdave's choice of 2 Inquisition, but I felt like Mishra's Factory wasn't going to be a good choice in my meta because I doubted there would be any Liliana of the Veil and I imagine that Factory wouldn't be blocking since the main attackers would be Delver and TNN. I went with Sylvan Library as a card that sort of has text against combo decks but is still a good anti-Swords to Plowshares card. 3 Sphere of Resistance because I'm one of two Storm players usually, 2 Surgicals because Reanimator isn't popular here, 4 Abrupt Decay for white decks and I was anticipating Blood Moons being popular, Drop of Honey because I want to know if it's good.

I didn't drop a single game before getting to Top 8. I went 2-0 against Sneak Show, UR Delver, and 4C Delver, then drew into the single eliminations rounds. I lost 1-2 against my round 1 Sneak Show opponent. Game 1 I mulliganed to six, had to keep a hand with no discard, and got caught with Show and Tell on Turn 2; Game 2 I had a messed up hand that was able to cast Thoughtseize then make Marit Lage on Turn 2; Game 3 I made a mistake that cost me the match. My opponent casts Show and Tell, and I Crop Rotate into Karakas. My opponent puts Griselbrand into play, and I bounce it, forcing him to draw 14 cards. He discards down to 7, and I take my turn. I draw Expedition Map and cast it; my opponent casts Force of Will to go down to 2. At this point what I should have done was cast the Elvish Spirit Guide in my hand, but I am not used to actual non-20/20 combat and I was certain I was dead since my opponent drew so many cards. My opponent lead his next turn off with a Ponder so I immediately realized my mistake--he didn't find what he needed that turn, but since I hadn't played my creature he actually gained an extra turn to Brainstorm into Sneak Attack and Emrakul.

Drop of Honey didn't do anything; I brought it in against the 4C player but the game was decided before I could cast it.

[jdmdave]

1. Is factory a maindeck card or not? I have a slot for it in the board, but it has been situationally useful
2. What are people's thoughts on running git probe without therapy? Has anyone tried this ala how infect in modern used to use probe to see if the cost was clear?