[Deck] Grixis Control / Thieves

[maharis]

I have to be honest, I really don't like Pyromancer Ascension. I think the success of builds with it is due to the fact that any two-of in a 12-cantrip deck doesn't really hurt you and this deck is just full of sick cards otherwise... but it seems bad against BGx decks (DRS and Decay), does nothing as a topdeck, incentivizes awkward sequencing, monkeys with Delve...

Considering BGx decks are our worst nightmare I'd rather pack something that is good against them, like Zombie Fish. And against Omnitell I want Snapcaster Mage all the way, a clock we can deploy on their turn while countering their stuff or sculpting our hand seems so much more valuable than tapping out for a do-nothing enchantment. Though I can see how it's good vs. Miracles, and that could also explain its success in the Miracles-heavy Europe meta.

Continuing about how bad BGx matchups are ... I got stomped by Shardless the other day... what about Misdirection/Divert? They hit Decay and Ancestral Visions, or even Pulse if you want it. Also, Spell Snare is good to have in those matchups, if you see them a lot running 2-3 in the 75 might not be the worst. Hymn, Goyf, Golgari Charm postboard are the major targets. Also Snare-Extraction is a nice out to Loam. I also think Perish has to be a consideration, even if we run Deathrite... we need CA and hopefully this can be a 2 for 1 or 3 for 2. They can nuke us with Toxic Deluge, we need something to fight back.

[JDK]

Our meta is inbred with mainly BGx (Shardless, Delver, Jund) and Ux Decks (Mentor Miracles, UR Delver, Stoneblade) (plus some combination of Nic Fit, DnT, Burn, Reanimator, Omnitell, Dark Depths...).
Which is what led me to my current build:

Lands
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island

Spells
4 Brainstorm
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Counterspell
3 Dig Through Time
1 Terminate
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Isochron Scepter
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
2 Spell Snare

Creatures
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Baleful Strix
1 Gurmag Angler
4 Young Pyromancer

Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard
1 Darkblast
2 Blood Moon
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Deathmark
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle
1 Dread of Night
2 Pyroblast


The Scepter went back in because it just fucks with every deck not playing Decay. Against BGx I board it out, ofc.
Snare is just necessary in my meta, as it tends to hit a lot. Namely Tarmogoy (which is a bane of this deck), Golgari Charm, Hymn to Tourach, SFM, Counterbalance, Young Pyromancer, Snapcaster Mage, Counterspell, Sylvan Library, Dark Confidant, Thalia, Price of Progress, Searing Blaze/Blood, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Exhume, Animate Dead, Vampire Hexmage, Rest in Piece, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, Cabal Ritual etc.

The creature combination is still something I test an tweak from tournament to tournament, but I will probably cut the TNN, as I tend to use my basics aggressively and Golgari Charm as well as Toxic Deluge are a thing. Angler proved to be very good as it's essentially a 3-4 turn clock which can deal with most opposing creatures. I would love a second one, but the deck just cannot handle that much Delve consistently.

Jace has been the MVP at last week's FNM, beating Jund and Shardless single-handedly. Brainstorming was the least used ability (beside ult), as I had to bounce Goyfs and DRS the whole time, but who cares if you get several Boomerangs out of one card to win the game.

Deathmark is the weapon of choice in my meta to combat Goyfs, as it also kills Mentors and so on while costing only B.

[btm10]

I have to be honest, I really don't like Pyromancer Ascension. I think the success of builds with it is due to the fact that any two-of in a 12-cantrip deck doesn't really hurt you and this deck is just full of sick cards otherwise... but it seems bad against BGx decks (DRS and Decay), does nothing as a topdeck, incentivizes awkward sequencing, monkeys with Delve...

Considering BGx decks are our worst nightmare I'd rather pack something that is good against them, like Zombie Fish. And against Omnitell I want Snapcaster Mage all the way, a clock we can deploy on their turn while countering their stuff or sculpting our hand seems so much more valuable than tapping out for a do-nothing enchantment. Though I can see how it's good vs. Miracles, and that could also explain its success in the Miracles-heavy Europe meta.

Ascension doesn't impact Delve any more than running Goyf or DRS in my experience, and it's a fine topdeck if you play like you're setting up for it. This whole deck is basically an exercise in awkward sequencing to generate incremental value anyway, and the payoff is huge. The reason BGx decks - especially Jund and Shardless - are tough matchups isn't just because because of Decay. They're on the same game plan but have way more power in each individual card so we're just casting Dig to catch up rather than to pull ahead and consolidate a position. I've heard people say that Goyf lines up poorly against Young Pyromancer, but that's really only true when Peezy is backed up by a hand with 2-3 spells in it.




Continuing about how bad BGx matchups are ... I got stomped by Shardless the other day... what about Misdirection/Divert? They hit Decay and Ancestral Visions, or even Pulse if you want it. Also, Spell Snare is good to have in those matchups, if you see them a lot running 2-3 in the 75 might not be the worst. Hymn, Goyf, Golgari Charm postboard are the major targets. Also Snare-Extraction is a nice out to Loam. I also think Perish has to be a consideration, even if we run Deathrite... we need CA and hopefully this can be a 2 for 1 or 3 for 2. They can nuke us with Toxic Deluge, we need something to fight back.

I ran Divert at Eternal Weekend and it was pretty good against UR Delver, too. I like the card a lot if you expect to hit BGx decks. As for Perish, I'd honestly rather have additional copies of Innocent Blood.

[jrsthethird]

I've been playing Jizz's list, except for 1 spell and Khans fetches because Tarns are fucking expensive.

-1 Spell Snare
+1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
-3 Scalding Tarn
+3 Bloodstained Mire

Still playing with sideboard a little. Not exactly sure what good sideboard plans are for each matchup. Is it best to keep in some Forces against Miracles?

Tested two matches against Miracles tonight, and now I question whether playing Magic is even worth it anymore.

First Match - 0-2 loss

Game 1 - big early counter war left us both with no board and no hand. I got Ascension online against his CounterTop lock, and felt like I had it set. I think I misplayed a Brainstorm and didn't keep a Therapy, which he may or may not have let resolve twice. Probably not, but he had Council's Judgment in hand and I feel like that was my only way to protect the Ascension. I slowly got locked out of that game.

Game 2 - I probably should have mulliganed. Saw too many red cards. Maybe Force + Ponder, red and lands? Anyway he basically had the nuts against me. I got a Probe in and he showed Terminus, STP, Wear/Tear, Mentor. I should be able to handle a Mentor but I sided most of by Bolts out and I felt pretty much dead. Played it out and he had an answer for anything I played. I was dumb and saw Wear/Tear with Therapy, and played out a Null Rod with my unactive Ascension on board. He fused and wiped them both. At this point, I raged for not RTFC and quit.

Couldn't find another match at 3am on MTGO so I played the same guy. Out for revenge.

Second match - 2-0 win

Game 1 - I hit hard with an early Ascension, then JVP, flip, double Therapy, Pyromancer. Not necessarily in that order. He scooped.

Game 2 - Goofy game. I sided in Surgical and drew it in my seven, and it won me the game. Anyway this was a slugfest. I countered an early Mentor, and Extracted it so I could see his hand/deck (I didn't have Therapy btw). He had one more in the deck and none in hand, but I noticed his sideboard tech too. Singleton EE & Blood Moon, extra Wear/Tear? Maybe another one or two things I don't remember. No Entreat though. Another back and forth match, although I ran out of gas before him. I was stuck on 3 Volcs with 2 Therapies in hand and nothing to do. I did however Pyroblast both of his Jaces and a Snap rather early. I didn't think about it, but at this point his deck was drawing dead with no way to kill me. He kept digging though to assemble his lock pieces. A little more than halfway through our decks, he assembles CounterTop, and a couple turns later finds Blood Moon. At this point I glance at the library counts. Turns out I'm about 4 cards ahead of him. I just auto-yield priority every turn and let him Top and draw cards. At one point we were both discarding to hand size. I ran out a Pyromancer if I saw it but other than that nothing. He let one resolve and I had an opportunity to cast a Probe and some Bolts, but I auto-yielded and didn't cancel it in time and he STPed it. He eventually scooped with about 7 cards left in his deck.

At this point I wanted to quit Magic for how stupid it can get. But hey, I won, right?

[Nihil Credo]

This deck has been moved back to the Established Decks forum because it turns out that that the vast majority of TCDecks' "Grixis Pyromancer" category are actually Tempo decks now (Delver / Deathrite Shaman).

Thanks to AfroSmile for pointing out my mistake.

[Anselm]

I'm trying to decide which version of this deck I should start testing. This is my attempt to summarize the different versions after reading through the later parts of this thread:

- Pyromancer Ascension, 3 Dig, a minimum number of creatures besides Young Pyromancer. Seems better in the mirror and against Miracles where Ascension is great. This deck is rather unpopular lately, according to mtggoldfish. I wonder why?

- Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, Innocent Blood, Kolaghan's Command. A bunch of creature removal cards which aren't very good against unfair decks. Jace is certainly sweet, though.

- TNN, Jitte, sideboard Blood Moon and less black. Weaker against big green creatures, possibly weaker against Miracles.

- Deathrite Shaman builds. I don't really understand these. Has access to Abrupt Decay for problematic permanents, and incidental graveyard hate, but has a weaker mana base.

I'm sure I'm missing plenty of things, so please help me out here.

[HSCK]

I've been testing something similar to Rich Shay's list. The MD Jitte is a great inclusion.

[LordOMJ]

I've been testing something similar to Rich Shay's list. The MD Jitte is a great inclusion.

I'd be concerned that 8 creatures capable of dealing combat damage is a very small number, but I suspect that in practice the deck's digging power makes up for it. Certainly a harder sell for lists that slim their creature count down to just Young Pyromancer. Looking at his SB, he was certainly better prepared than most for the number of Lands decks floating around the top tables.

[Anselm]

What I don't like about Rich Shay's list is mainly that his ways of handling large creatures is blocking with TNN, and then Engineered Explosives and Toxic Deluge out of the sideboard. Deluge in particular doesn't seem so optimal when you frequently get into TNN standoffs. Also the lack of Preordain, but I suppose that is quite common in the lists without Pyromancer's Ascension?

[The Atog Lord]

What I don't like about Rich Shay's list is mainly that his ways of handling large creatures is blocking with TNN, and then Engineered Explosives and Toxic Deluge out of the sideboard. Deluge in particular doesn't seem so optimal when you frequently get into TNN standoffs. Also the lack of Preordain, but I suppose that is quite common in the lists without Pyromancer's Ascension?

These are reasonable points. I was running the full set of Preordain for a while. Eventually, I cut it. The deck is great at chaining cantrips. And when you have a Young Pyromancer on the table, this is great. Unfortunately, without Pyromancer, this isn't very effective. There are two solutions to this. The first is to play a card like Ascension, which gives you a second card that rewards you for chaining cantrips. The second solution, which I feel is better, is simply to play fewer cantrips. I recently moved from one Preordain to zero, and haven't looked back.

Dealing with large creatures it not easy. True-Name Nemesis appears to be the best solution to large monsters. There are other viable approaches -- Terminate and Strix are sound cards. However, I tend to play the deck as being primarily Red and Blue, with a light Black splash. That is why I favor True Name over the other options to handle Goyf and Goyf-alike creatures.

At any rate, today I split a Black Lotus tournament with this deck. There were about 120 players with 7 strong rounds of competition. The deck performed extremely well. The Grixis Delver matchup still isn't where I want it to be, and that was my one match loss on the day. I made a few small adjustments from my Star City list. I wanted to have a better answer to Mentor in the sideboard, and that's why I ran two Sulfur Elemental. I also wanted the deck to be more robust against Omni Show, which is why I had the maindeck Pyroblast and the sideboarded Thoughtseize. Changing Dack for a second Command was a metagame call, and that worked out very nicely.

Remember, for this deck, there is no singular ideal build. Instead, you should be adjusting this build based on your local expected metagame. Part of what makes it difficult to configure this deck is that you are a reactive deck. Is there a lot of combo in your are? That calls for a different configuration than a metagame full of Miracles. Don't just copy a lost. Take that list and think about how to make the deck work for you.


// Removal
1 Pyroblast
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt

// Draw
4 Dig Through Time
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

// Permission
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
4 Cabal Therapy

// Creatures
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage

// Mana
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Mountain
2 Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea

Sideboard
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Izzet Staticaster
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Forked Bolt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Blood Moon
2 Pyroblast
1 Thoughtseize

[rubblekill]

These are reasonable points. I was running the full set of Preordain for a while. Eventually, I cut it. The deck is great at chaining cantrips. And when you have a Young Pyromancer on the table, this is great. Unfortunately, without Pyromancer, this isn't very effective. There are two solutions to this. The first is to play a card like Ascension, which gives you a second card that rewards you for chaining cantrips. The second solution, which I feel is better, is simply to play fewer cantrips. I recently moved from one Preordain to zero, and haven't looked back.

Dealing with large creatures it not easy. True-Name Nemesis appears to be the best solution to large monsters. There are other viable approaches -- Terminate and Strix are sound cards. However, I tend to play the deck as being primarily Red and Blue, with a light Black splash. That is why I favor True Name over the other options to handle Goyf and Goyf-alike creatures.

At any rate, today I split a Black Lotus tournament with this deck. There were about 120 players with 7 strong rounds of competition. The deck performed extremely well. The Grixis Delver matchup still isn't where I want it to be, and that was my one match loss on the day. I made a few small adjustments from my Star City list. I wanted to have a better answer to Mentor in the sideboard, and that's why I ran two Sulfur Elemental. I also wanted the deck to be more robust against Omni Show, which is why I had the maindeck Pyroblast and the sideboarded Thoughtseize. Changing Dack for a second Command was a metagame call, and that worked out very nicely.

Remember, for this deck, there is no singular ideal build. Instead, you should be adjusting this build based on your local expected metagame. Part of what makes it difficult to configure this deck is that you are a reactive deck. Is there a lot of combo in your are? That calls for a different configuration than a metagame full of Miracles. Don't just copy a lost. Take that list and think about how to make the deck work for you.


// Removal
1 Pyroblast
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt

// Draw
4 Dig Through Time
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

// Permission
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
4 Cabal Therapy

// Creatures
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage

// Mana
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Mountain
2 Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea

Sideboard
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Izzet Staticaster
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Forked Bolt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Blood Moon
2 Pyroblast
1 Thoughtseize

Thanks for your inputs. I am trying to figure out what works best for me in the sideboard, so I have a couple of questions: what do you think about clique in the sb? And mountain (moving the one from the maindeck)?

[kryllex]

Hey, i went 5-2 yesterday at a 75-player Legacy Tournament (Eternal Clash) in Flensburg, Germany. Stupidly enough, i scrubbed myself out of the top8, because of the most retarded mistake ever - was vs. BUG in Game 7, had a Moon in hand, therapied his FoW (he was like "wtf, why Force?"), knew i win with the moon down, he only had a flipped delver, Deathrite and a hand full of gas. Instead of fetching on one of my 2 basic Islands, i just slammed down Moon with 3 Duals because i didn't think enough because i just saw the potential win and the top8 and i was a bit tired. Well, yeah, died to delver from there on, ended up being 9th of 75. But well, yeah, what can i say, thy learn from mistakes, that will never ever happen again, and it was my first tournament with Grixis Control after having the Deck for just 3 Weeks, so i am really satisfied with the results anyway. The Deck felt EXTREMELY powerful. I destroyed Miracles like Nothing, and escaped from a few dangerous situations (Hail Dig Through Time, heuheuehuehueehuehuee)

I played the following List:

4x Young Pyromancer
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x True-Name Nemesis
1x Baleful Strix

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
3x Dig Through Time

4x Force of Will
2x Spell Snare
1x Counterspell
1x Pyroblast

3x Cabal Therapy

4x Lightning Bolt
1x Forked Bolt
1x Terminate

1x Dack Fayden

4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
1x Misty Rainforest
2x Island
3x Volcanic Island
3x Underground Sea
1x Creeping Tar Pit

//Sideboard
1x Pithing Needle
1x Null Rod
1x Tsabo's Web
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Cabal Therapy
2x Pyroblast
1x Sulfuric Vortex (Seriously, this thing destroys Miracles and other Control Decks so hard)
1x Sulfur Elemental
1x Vendilion Clique
2x Blood Moon
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Flusterstorm
1x Echoing Truth


The Spell Snare are in because The Deck struggles with resolved Tarmogyfs, i dont want to see a Counterbalance, and most 2 ofs are core cards of decks nowadays.
TNN was the Man of the day, as well as Creeping Tar pit. These two got me alot of wins. Also, Dack Fayden is insane in this Deck. Ultimate, bolt your Jace - mine, huehue.

When I have time i will write a detailed report of the tournament. Meta was full of Grixis Tempo and Miracles. The Pyroblast Maindeck was extremely powerful here. Strix is absolutely perfect in this shell, blocks delvers, harmonizes extremely good with cabal therapy.

Cheers,
kryllex

[JosephK]

I just read
Ultimate, bolt your Jace - mine, huehue.

So bolt doesn't target Jace but the player.


@The Atog's Lord
Very well thought list. I especially like the 3 surgical extration and 2 blood moon in your sb, + the chalice answers main deck. Just to say no to Lands and Aggro Loam, which are decks we can't normally beat.
I see that you have Forked Bolt + Jitte for grixis delver. Isn't Jitte too mana intensive ? Have you tried to put some grim lavamancer in there (sb) ? Does it fit within your sb plans in the MU ?
I also thought about Basilik collar that can deal with big creatures (combo with grim btw), especially in this more creature dependant version of the deck.

I'm more reluctant when it comes to EE Sb, especially with rod in there (Sorm/D1T). If you don't take Rod in in these MUs, then I feel there are better cards for EE's role.

It could be the type of lists that should be played today, but I don't want to because it feels more like midrange than Control :/.

[The Atog Lord]

Great questions.

Clique in the Sideboard isn't bad. The card is excellent against Miracles because it is a threat that can "counter" a Miracle. However, it turned out not to be good enough against fast combo. Show and Tell and certainly Storm can easily win before you can put clique onto the stack -- especially if you are on the draw. Clique became Thoughtseize. Thoughtseize costs only one mana, and it makes subsequent Therapies better. It also improves the odds of using Surgical Extraction effectively against Show and Tell. So, if you expect a ton of Miracles, run Clique. If you expect a lot of combo, run Thoughtseize.

Basic Mountain has been quite good in the maindeck. Agains a lot of decks that attack your manabase, you lean very heavily on Red mana. I would not want to move the Mountain to the sideboard at this point. If you expect a metagame with no Wastelands, then that is reasonable not to maindeck that Mountain.

I've worked a lot with Chris Stagno on this list. He likes Grim Lavamancer in the main deck. I think it is a perfectly fine card if you expect him to be good against the metagame. I really do like Jitte, though. It just gives you this very powerful one-of to find via your Digs. Dig Through Time strongly encourages the use of high-variance one-ofs. Jitte is a great example of this. Jitte, first suggested by Brian Coval, has won me a lot of games that nothing else would have won. I'd strong suggest the card if your metagame has decks that aren't Miracles or combo.

Basilisk Collar is interesting, but I think that Jitte is probably better and I doubt we have room for more than one equipment.

You're right about Null Rod and EE being a horrible combo. My one match loss in the Swiss at Feinstein's Lotus tournament was to my own poor deck-design choice. I would have won the match if my Null Rod were a Needle. So, yeah, Null Rod should be the 2nd Needle.

And, this deck is not midrange at all. This is a control deck. Don't let the manabase fool you.

[Anselm]

Also Null Rod and Jitte being a non-combo (not that you'd have both in the deck very often, but you would against Death and Taxes), I suppose. Two Needles makes sense.

[rei-vax]

Hi everybody,

My local meta is very varied, so I tried to make the most possible skilful list.

Here is the list I'm playing, with flex slots*
Lands
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 True-Name Nemesis

// Spells
1-0 Kolaghan's Command *
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Lightning Bolt
3-4 Dig Through Time *
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
1-2 Counterspell *
4 Force of Will
1-0 Dack Fayden *
1 Forked Bolt
2 Pyroblast
1 Spell Snare

// Sideboard
1 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Blood Moon
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast
1 Null Rod
1 Perish
1 Rakdos Charm (could be hydroblast, electrickery, izzet staticaster)
2 Grim Lavamancer

Less black spells in my list (no strix, ...) for protect' the mana base against tempo. When I have U sea, Volc', island ('cause i cast a strix or innocent blood ) and my oppenent waste the Volc'... I hate this moment :-p
So in this list the U sea is fetch only when i need to cast a cabal but i might be wrong with this choice of list.

That's just my 2 cents and all opinions or ideas are welcome

Thx for your reading and sry for my poor english:-)

[btm10]

Just to add to the chorus on basics - I'm running 4, they're great, but I'm struck by the lack of basic Swamp in decks with Blood Moon. This might be a local meta thing - I run into Loam and Lands more than most other people in the US - but there are lots of times that I want access to Kolaghan's Command, Innocent Blood, Therapy, and Blood Moon in the same matchup. This also might be because I treat the black and red cards as equal priorities. There's a reasonable argument that you'd rather have the third Island than the first Swamp, but that's an argument for five basics rather than an argument against the Swamp.

[The Atog Lord]

Just to add to the chorus on basics - I'm running 4, they're great, but I'm struck by the lack of basic Swamp in decks with Blood Moon. This might be a local meta thing - I run into Loam and Lands more than most other people in the US - but there are lots of times that I want access to Kolaghan's Command, Innocent Blood, Therapy, and Blood Moon in the same matchup. This also might be because I treat the black and red cards as equal priorities. There's a reasonable argument that you'd rather have the third Island than the first Swamp, but that's an argument for five basics rather than an argument against the Swamp.

Yes, good point. I built my list to be mostly functional without Black mana. If you run more Black cards than I do, you want that basic Swamp in the 75.

[JDK]

It's interesting to see, that eventually you reach the same or a similar conclusion about SB choices and basic lands.

Since I am running Blood Moon in my SB and mostly play against BUG as well as Scapeshift NicFit, Dark Depths, Jund, Lands etc I didn't regret playing more basics than the usual lists. Currently I am at 2 Islands, 1 Mountain and 1 Swamp. I don't think you need more than 2 Islands, as you just need them to get out a Counterspell, Jace, TNN or DTT and 1/1 Mountain/Swamp is the most the deck is able to support without crippling itself while also providing protection against Wasteland and be able to utilize Blood Moon.

[JosephK]

It was a pleasure.

[LordOMJ]

It was a pleasure.

I'm glad I have one last LGS event before the change kicks in. Going to send her out in style. Then figure out what I feel like playing in the new meta.

[The Atog Lord]

Well, this deck had a good run. Thanks, Chris and Eli, for your contributions to the archetype. It's always bittersweet to see a deck you helped develop rise to the level of being banned out of existence.


And now, I suppose, it's time to find a new Legacy deck to play.

[Shamaatae]

Well, this deck had a good run. Thanks, Chris and Eli, for your contributions to the archetype. It's always bittersweet to see a deck you helped develop rise to the level of being banned out of existence.


And now, I suppose, it's time to find a new Legacy deck to play.



Yeah, was looking forward to a big tourney on halloween with this deck. Sad to see it go.

[kryllex]

Well, I will keep playing this Deck. I agree that Grixis Tempo is dead, but i don't see the control variant being slaughtered by that ban. I will probably add a JTMS in the MD and test around with some things. But I will seriously NOT go back to playing Delver, that was just way too boring. :mad:

[jrsthethird]

Lol overreact much? The deck will evolve. I personally have some interesting ideas to play with. Hiatus is a good word to use. Dead is a bit...permanent.

[LordOMJ]

Lol overreact much? The deck will evolve. I personally have some interesting ideas to play with. Hiatus is a good word to use. Dead is a bit...permanent.

I'll grant that our original reaction was similar when Cruise was banned, but without a high value card advantage option I don't think this shell retains its strength. Games can certainly be won without it, but between that loss and the impending resurgence of decks that stand to benefit from the banning I think there are far better shells to be investing time in.

[The Atog Lord]

This isn't an over-reaction. This has been, in its current incarnation, a Dig Through Time deck. It was made as a Dig Through Time deck in the first place. I based it on Eli's model of a Treasure Cruise deck.

But, for the record, I'm not unhappy with the change. In fact, I'm thrilled about what happened in Vintage. So, this isn't me being upside. Quite the opposite. But this deck, as it is built now, is done.

[AkTak]

After TC got banned a list popped up with no FoW, no DTT, and no Young Pyromancers, instead running 4 snapcasters and 4 Goblin Rabblemasters.

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16103&iddeck=120216

Is this a direction the deck could go in? Kolaghan's command would definetly bring a lot of value to this shell I thi

[jrsthethird]

After TC got banned a list popped up with no FoW, no DTT, and no Young Pyromancers, instead running 4 snapcasters and 4 Goblin Rabblemasters.

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16103&iddeck=120216

Is this a direction the deck could go in? Kolaghan's command would definetly bring a lot of value to this shell I thi

I was thinking something less blue focused and more creature focused. This is a start.

[wizard_of_gore]

Maybe to focus on

- deathrite shaman
- young pyromancer
- cabal therapy / gitaxian probe
- Jace the mind sculptor
- punishing fire & life from the loam

I'm sure engine will work together, because i played pyro control (old school pyroloam) deck before cruise/dig era.

Maybe something like this:

4x deathrite shaman
4x young pyromancer

3x jace, the mind sculptor

4x fow
4x bolt
3x p. fire
2x pyroblast
3x cabal therapy

4x brainstorm
4x gitaxian probe
3x ponder

3x grove of the burnwillows
3x wasteland
3x volcanic island
2x underground sea
1x tropical island
1x badlands
9x fetches

[rubblekill]

So is there any chance this deck remains t1 after the ban? Any input about what route this strategy should take?

[bigup]

I don't see this deck beeing really competative in the new meta without dig. I allready switched to BURG and must say it feels way better.

[kryllex]

I really wanted to keep playing this Deck. But it is incredible how big of a throwback the lack of DTT is. Switched to Jund, goodbye blue! :cry:

[Delvis]

So is there any chance this deck remains t1 after the ban? Any input about what route this strategy should take?

Build around Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas?

I suppose you could go back to playing the Thief card advantage engine, with Dack. If Jace starts seeing a lot more play, this becomes much more reasonable.

Either way, you basically need to rebuild it from the ground up. This deck revolved around DTT more than anything else in the format.

[jrsthethird]

I suppose you could go back to playing the Thief card advantage engine, with Dack. If Jace starts seeing a lot more play, this becomes much more reasonable.

But Dack doesn't even deal with Black Vise!

[Lightless]

Everyone just drops this deck and actually I did it aas well and played something else, but the Tolarian Community College video braught m back to the deck, with some idas
(for anyone interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1692pPUseA)

I don't think, that the list portraied in the video is anywhere near the right choice but I used it as a starting point.
Sadly the next local legacy tournament won't be available until tuesday so the decklist I'mgoing to post is not tested yet,
but anyway I want to discuss the list anyway :tongue:


//Creatures

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

//Spells

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Murderous Cut
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Reanimate

//Planeswalker

2 Dack Fayden
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy

//Lands

3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

//Sideboard

2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Duress
1 Notion Thief
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage


The main problem I got with the list shown in the video is the lack of hard removal, yes damage based removal is good, but especially with DTT out Murderous cut can be put into the list in multiples.
Another point is Sudden Shock, yes it's a verry good card at what it does, but i like my removal to be as mana efficient as possible, so i rather play 3 Bolts, then the split he opted for.

The rest of the list is pretty close to what he proposes.

So lets see if theres still anyone out there wanting to discuss this deck or if this thread is verry much dead :wink:

[AkTak]

Hey the list looks sweet! I've been wondering how the deck holds up with out an obvious CA engine like DTT, can't wait for the report.

That liliana looks a little suspect. Does the deck ever really want to spend three mana investing in lili or is she just going to be a slow edict effect? I used to run a singleton innocent blood and it worked great. Like you said the deck is all about being super efficient with its mana. I also only ran 3 cabal therapies main and one in the sb as my discard package so maybe with those duresses and a clutch K. Command you can make the strategy work a little better.

I would definitely not want to start cutting lightning bolts though. Bolt snap bolt closed out so many games for me and it is just such a versatile card.

Glad to see someone keeping things alive haha.

[Lightless]

Okay so today was our legacy-league-tournament we got 2 times per month,
sadly we only have been 8 players so there were only 3 round.

I changed some things about the list I got in my previous post.

-1 Cabal Therapy
-1 Liliana of the Veil

+1 Dimir Charm
+1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest

1st Round Vs Mud

I won the dieroll
In the first Game I countered his Chalice early. He wasted 3 of my lands but I drew alot of them. Later I resolved Dack Fayden that I had to set up with Dimir Charm. Dack stole his Wurmcoil Engine and with the help of some elementals they ended game 1.
In the second Game he resolved a Chalice of the Void on 1 and a Phyrexian Revoker naming Dack. But i had Kolaghan's Command in my opening hand and was able to handle both cards with the command in Turn4 after i had to counter a Wurmcoil Engine the turn before. Ancient Grudge and some Deathrite Shamans sealed the deal.

2-0

2nd Round Vs Slivers

Long Story Short, I never found any solution to this pesky "little" bastards and got pummled, without any actual chance.

0-2

3rd Round Vs NicFit

In the first game i got a good amount of Tokens in game and drop Edric, he didn't even want to try to fight against him and Young Pyromancer in play.
The second game was pretty grindy but him resolving Thrun, the last Troll and a late Garruk, Primal Hunter, spelled my doom.
The third game he kept a pretty loose hand and didn't draw a 2nd land for like 4 turns, needlessly to say, he didn't win that one.

2-1

So overall I went 2-1 and I start to gt the feling that Grixis-Controll isn't dead at all. Sure it is slower than in the DtT-era but so are other decks.

Saturday in a week there will be a bigger legacy tournament near me and I will play this deck for sure, with some minor changes. I will cut the Dimir Charm again
and add a second Kolaghan's Command for sure. And the sidboar still needs some fine tuning, but overall I still like the deck.

[Minniehajj]

So while this deck is effectively dead, seeing Painful Truths in action from Chapin's Esper Mentor deck this past weekend got me to thinking. Is a variant with Painful truths instead of DTT something to consider?

[One With Nothing]

I came here to say exactly that. Painful Truths seems to be our new 'draw 3' replacement, but I'm not sure that we can safely run more than 2 since the life loss can really add up quickly in Grixis at times. Any other options I can think of are too expensive. Though on the bright side to running 3, we can 'dial it in' to only 2 if we need to. Maybe hybridizing this strategy with the Grixis Delver decks to make a more midrange-y version?

[Minniehajj]

I came here to say exactly that. Painful Truths seems to be our new 'draw 3' replacement, but I'm not sure that we can safely run more than 2 since the life loss can really add up quickly in Grixis at times. Any other options I can think of are too expensive. Though on the bright side to running 3, we can 'dial it in' to only 2 if we need to. Maybe hybridizing this strategy with the Grixis Delver decks to make a more midrange-y version?

Precisely what I was thinking. Some number of deathrite shamans would be paramount perhaps?

[Lightless]

So while this deck is effectively dead...

Sorry but why do you even bother posting anything in here at all, if this is your mindset?



Okay to the topic I wanted to address in the first place.

Tournament-Result incoming.

First of all the list I played


//Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 True-Name Nemesis

//Spells
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Murderous Cut
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Reanimate
1 Fire Covenant

//PW
1 Dack Fayden
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy

//Lands
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn

//Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Duress
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ancient Grudge


I'm still not a big fan of the Fire Covenant, but righ now I don't know what else I should play in the slot. The 2nd Command as to slow and Covenant is just to expensive lifewise, but an instant "Mass-Removal" is much to hard to pass on.

1st Round VS Infect

He won the dieroll and dropped a first Turn Glistener Elf. On my first Turn i playd Gitaxian Probe and saw Force of Will, Blighted Agent, Brainstorm, Sylvan Library, Inkmoth Nexus. So I cast Cabal Therapy. He was a little wary when I casted it and was thinking some time so I asked "Does it resolve?" I don't know if this tipped himovr the edge but h then cast his Forc of will pitching the Agent, exactly what I waited for, I forced the Force and the therapy resolved. Here I made a mistake and took his Brainstorm instead of the library but it didn't change anything and he lost the first Game.

The second game he opend with a Glistener Elf as well. I played a Deathrite Shaman as blocker. I cannot say anything about this gam to be honest. He drew alot of creaturs but no pump and I flooded the board with the help of Young Pyromancer and some removal Spells. And so I won the 2nd game as well.

2-0

Sideboarding:
//In
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Duress

//Out
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Reanimate
1 Dack Fayden
1 Cabal Therapy

2nd Round VS Grixis Delver

He won the dieroll. First Turn Delver hammered me down to 11 until he found another crature a Deathrite Shaman. Now he made a fatal mistake. I casted my Tasigur to lure out the force of will I knew he had in his hand. And he forced him. At that point he had an airborne Delver and a Deathrite Shaman so he had a 5 Point swing to my 4 point Swing, and he was one 17 life whereas I was only on 11. So actually he shouldn't have countered the Tasigur, but he did.
And so I could play a Bolt to remove his Delver and a big Part of his clock. At some Point I reanimated a Pyromancer I killed before and started to produc Tokens. When he got me down to 5 with his Deathrite Shaman I was able to find my own to at least lock his for another turn. So I went down to 1. He tried to get me, by using his Shaman on my endstep and then on his turn. But I drew a timely Murderous Cut to destroy his plan and win the game.

On the second Game he kept a loose hand without pressure and lost to a resolved Tasigur.

2-0

Sideboarding:
//In
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Duress

//Out
4 Force of Will
1 Reanimate
1 Dack Fayden
1 Gitaxian Probe

3rd Round Vs Elves

I didn't win a single dieroll this day.

Overall I lost the match due to some stupid mistakes and some bad luck at the draws but 1 single play was like burnt into my mind. (It was so awesome :tongue:)

In game 1 with some with some removal and other stuff i managed to reduce his Board to 4 Lands(1 of them a Dryad Arbor), a Nettle Sentinel and an Elvish Visionary. He cast a Natural Order and I sadly had no counter for it, so Hoof came in, so with 3 cratures on board hoof and his friends attacked for 17. I was on 16 life had a tapped Deathrite Shaman a Young Pyromancer and a single token. So no-brainer Pyro and token were on jumpblock-duty, i went down to 1.
The following turn i cast another Pyromancer a Ponder and found my Reanimate. The first reaction was... "okay shuffle for sure". But then it hit me, i took the reanimate and casted it on his Dryad Arbor, this way i had 2 additional blockers(Arbor + token) and a green source for Deathrite Shaman and since Arbor has CMC 0 i don't loose any life. With this play I somehow managed to wiggle my way through game 1 but sadly lost games 2 and 3.

1-2

Sideboarding:
//In
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Duress

//Out
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Dack Fayden
1 Reanimate
2 Gitaxian Probe

4th Round Vs Miracles

Like I said I didn't won a dieroll the entire day :wink:. In the first game I tore apart his entire hand by drawing all three of my cabal therapys pretty early and Young pyromancer helpd alot with this task. When he was aable to find a Terminus I just refired the aggression with a 2nd Pyromancer and a Deathrite Shaman.
Game 2 he managed to get the old countertop out at turn 2 and a mentor on 3 so I just put my stuff back together.
Game 3 he kept a hand without alot to do and Duress and Therapy just shredded everything else. Tasigur and a Pyromancer did the rest.

2-1

Sideboarding:
//In
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Pyroblast
2 Duress
1 Pithing Needle

//Out
1 Fire Covenant
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Reanimate
2 Gitaxian Probe

5th Round Vs XXX

I was set to be in the Top8 with a draw and so was my opponent so why even bother I. D.
He was playing Death and Taxes and maybe I should haav played the match just to see what I have to change for the big tournament we got in a week :tongue:

ID 0-0-3

Top8 Vs RUG-landstill

I played one of my friends in the first round of the Top8 and I knew what he was playing. Stiflenought-standstill-stuff. Actually I like his deck but I think it is an easy matchup for my deck.
I got enough cards to handle Phyrexian Dreadnought and the rest of his deck is a pile of pretty neat but hard to establish card-combinations. The only thing I was realy afraid of, was him having an early Punishing Fire set up.
But he did not, in non of the games and so Pyromancer, Cabal Therapy and Tasigur, did what they are supposed to do.

2-0

Sideboarding:
//In

2 Pyroblast
2 Duress
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb

//Out
4 Force of Will
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Reanimate
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Fire Covenant

Top4 Vs ANT

It was pretty one sided match. Th first game we both ripped each others hand to shreds but he did draw alot better then me.
The second game I had to keep a loose hand on a mulligan to 6, that was promptly taken apart by probe therapy.

0-2

Sideboarding:
//In
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Null Rod
2 Pyroblast

//Out
1 Dack Fayden
1 Reanimate
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Murderous Cut
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Fire Covenant
1 Lightning Bolt

Recap

Overall the day was a blast. The deck performed pretty well and I had a lot of fun playing it. There were som mistakes in some matches I made and some minor issues with the content of the deck, but nothing big. Fire Covenant is a card I'm not very fond of, but to be honest I got no idea what else should be in the slot. Maybe the deck should just evolve into a dedicated hand-disruption-counter-deck, cause to be honest this is the way this deck wins most of it's games. Maybe the Duresses should be in the main board. Or there should be Thoughtseize in the MB, i don't know.

The banning of DtT hit the deck pretty hard, to be honest. It is the deck that suffered the hardest from the loss of the card. But I don't see any reason to not at least try to get this deck back on track.

//edit: Card Tags will be added in the following days

[Lightless]

Okay yesterday was the next big tournament (72 players). Sadly the 5 wins and 2 losses i had were not nearly enough to get into the top 8 so I had to settle for 17th place.This time I will put the report into the tournament report section of the forum so this thread doesn't become a big pile of me monologing. :tongue: but I will link the report later in this post.

*link to report* (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30159-Demons-of-the-alps-5-2-with-Grixis-control&p=917740#post917740)

[Minniehajj]

Sorry but why do you even bother posting anything in here at all, if this is your mindset?

The deck is effectively no longer a DTB, so perhaps I should've worded it less harshly, apologies. It cannot keep up with the rest of legacy without delve cards, hence why almost everyone is off of it and it hasn't placed well in an event in months. Painful Truths, I believe, is what it needs to come back, but it's still going to be more clunky without the delve spells, and I don't know if there's any way of getting around that.

[ironclad8690]

Do you guys think something like this could work?


4 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Painful Truths
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Counterspell
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Perish
1 Innocent Blood
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Darkblast
1 Terminate
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Envelop
1 Notion Thief


After seeing Chapin's GP SeaTac deck (can be found here (http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpsea15/legacy-mentors-2015-11-07)) I really feel like Painful Truths could be made to work in the dig through time slot for this deck. It is indeed worse, but who knows this could be fun to try out.

Need to cut something in sideboard for Pithing Needle though.

[Thumbs]

Hi,
I just recently acquired this deck, as I really like the combination of Young Peezy, Gitaxian Probe, and Cabal Therapy. I went 5-3-1 with it at this past weekend's SCG New Jersey Legacy Open. I beat Miracles twice, Shardless BUG, Infect, and Enchantress, while losing to MUD, Shardless BUG, and BUG Delver. I tied with RUG Delver when my opponent kept trying to kill Dack Fayden instead of me for 15 minutes in game 2, giving me time to win:) I would love to share ideas and thoughts about this deck here, as I live in a region with a lot of Legacy players, so I can experiment a lot in the near future!

[Lightless]

Hi,
It would be interesting to know the exact list you played and what card performed well and if you have ideas how to improve the deck and certain matchups. YBut anyway, welcome to the show ;)

There will be a big legacy tournament in Geneva this weekend and I will be there as well, piloting my list from the previous post.

The sideboard will be very different to the one I used before. I will be playing 3 Submerge and 2 Bloodmoons. Genevas metagame is verry Lands and Jund focused, thats why I will make this changes.

The SB will be:

3 Submerge
2 Bloodmoon
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast

If anyone has some better ideas, lets discuss them here

[carnifex]

@Ironclad:

I think the spirit of the painful-truths list is on point, though I think the costs we incur by playing 4 are too high. It seems to me that grixis control variants ought to play 2-3 copies and fill out the other slots previously given to dig through time with some combination of gurmag / murderous cut.

My current list, after much deliberation (and only some testing), looks as follows:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Island
1 Wasteland

4 Young Pyromancer
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Baleful Strix
1 Snapcaster Mage

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ponder
2 Painful Truths
1 Forked Bolt
1 Innocent Blood

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Counterspell
1 Murderous Cut
1 Spell Snare

SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Rakdos Charm
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Price of Progress
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Creeping Tar Pit
SB: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 1 Dismember

I might offer a more in-depth analysis of card choices later. I will be testing this at a local 1k today.

[atopebenidorm]

You must change hyped painful truths for read The bones or The best option in control for me: skeletal scrying.

[wizard_of_gore]

You must change hyped painful truths for read The bones or The best option in control for me: skeletal scrying.

Excuse me, but why are these two cards are better than truths? Before any discussion, Painful Truths is 3 for 1 at 3 mana. Now we look at this:

Read the bones - 2 for 1, at the same mana cost and also sorcery speed.
Sceletal scrying - to get out of best of it -3 for 1 (in comparison with painful truths), - you are playing black instant harmonize at 4 mana, shrinking your graveyard and loosing life. And difference in1 mana means a lot in legacy.

Painful truths is probably the best draw spell in legacy with reasonable casting cost and fine restriction.

[gamegeek2]

Hey! I haven't posted here in a few years. I've played mainly RUG Delver and Storm whenever I've had time to go to Legacy events away from school, so I figured I'd try something new. The deck I'm listing below is a bit unconventional, but I'll explain some of my choices:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Grim Lavamancer

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
1 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:

1 Mountain
3 Blood Moon
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pyroblast
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Darkblast
2 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Pithing Needle

Explaining some of my choices:

1) Dark Confidant/Grim Lavamancer over Delve Cards: I think Bob is really good in the current metagame. Against any deck that's not attacking your life total, he's generally going to be a must-answer bomb. Bob punishes you for expensive Delve cards, so I put a Grim Lavamancer in instead, since without the Delve guys you have a lot more fuel for the Lavamancer, especially if you play intelligently with Deathrite.
2) No planeswalkers: I'd rather play a slim, low-to-the-ground game and try to overwhelm the opponent with Bob or beat them down with Pyromancer. By not having expensive cards, you can play 17 lands maindeck.
3) Blood Moon: The Moon is just brutal against Lands and can get you a lot of auto-wins against decks with greedy manabases.
4) Abrupt Decay: I think this is pretty self-explanatory. Having one in the maindeck as a flex slot can get you out of a lot of sticky situations - it's not difficult to cast off 4 Deathrite/1 Trop and it can be shuffled away with Brainstorm/Fetch. Out of the sideboard, it's very good against Miracles and is in general a good removal option against decks that aren't attacking your mana.

My big questions are:

1) I'm really unsure about the 2 Daze in the maindeck. Daze is bad, but if I have 8 creatures that I want to be deploying on turn 2, I want to have some more ways to defend them. They're also easy sideboard fodder, which is kind of a crappy reason to put a card in, and if the opponent sees one they may play around it in the future.
2) Is the basic mountain worth putting in the sideboard? I really like the idea of having a solid source against D&T and Grixis so you can guarantee Lavamancer activations, and against Lands so you can make sure you land Blood Moon (though I'd only fetch it if I already had Island and Swamp).
3) What do you guys think about Jitte? Since the deck's relatively dude-heavy, I wanted to give it some more hitting power and have a bomb against Elves, D&T, and Delver.
4) Should I put the fourth Therapy in the sideboard? I'm afraid four would be kinda clunky.

Things I would consider adding to the main to replace the Dazes:
1 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
1 Vendilion Clique
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Snapcaster Mage

Thanks - feedback is hugely appreciated.

[jrsthethird]

You must change hyped painful truths for read The bones or The best option in control for me: skeletal scrying.

Sign in Blood is better than either of those. At least you can kill your opponent with it.

[Lightless]

Hey everyone,

just wanted to show you a decklist

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=11034&d=262823&f=LE

Someone won the Finnish Legacy Championship, a 109-player tournament, with Grixis-controll. I got the list send to me by a friend the evening bfore I went to a 100-person tournament myslf, so i gave it a try and I finished Top4. Cause we splitted prices in Top4 and it was close to 10 pm, we didn't play for the semifinals and finals, so cannot tell you if I would hav won or not, but I will write a detailed tournamentreport today. Hope your looking forward to reading it.

*Tournamentreport* (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30203-Top-4-at-GENEVA-legacy-VI-with-Grixis-controll&p=920179#post920179)

[snorlaxcom]

Hey! I haven't posted here in a few years. I've played mainly RUG Delver and Storm whenever I've had time to go to Legacy events away from school, so I figured I'd try something new. The deck I'm listing below is a bit unconventional, but I'll explain some of my choices:


Welcome back!

[Thumbs]

Hi,
It would be interesting to know the exact list you played and what card performed well and if you have ideas how to improve the deck and certain matchups. YBut anyway, welcome to the show ;)

There will be a big legacy tournament in Geneva this weekend and I will be there as well, piloting my list from the previous post.

The sideboard will be very different to the one I used before. I will be playing 3 Submerge and 2 Bloodmoons. Genevas metagame is verry Lands and Jund focused, thats why I will make this changes.

The SB will be:

3 Submerge
2 Bloodmoon
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast

If anyone has some better ideas, lets discuss them here
Hi Lightless, this was my list for the Legaxy Open:

Lands (19)
4 Scalding Tarn, 3 Flooded Strand, 2 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island, 3 Underground Sea
2 Island, 1 Mountain (I don't want to lose to Wasteland)

Creatures (10)
4 Young Pyromancer
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Snapcaster Mage

Spells (31)
4 Force of Will, 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Preordain
2 Counterspell
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Pyroblast
1 Forked Bolt
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard (15)
2 Pyroblast
2 Blood Moon
1 Sudden Demise
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Dack Fayden
2 Engineered Explosives

Cards I liked:
Dack Fayden - he's the reason I drew to RUG Delver and didn't lose. He eventually found the Jitte that gained me enough life to stabilize. Would love to have stolen my MUD opponent's Blightsteel Colossus both games he killed me with it. I will be putting 2 in my main deck next time.
Blood Moon - Seemed like a great way to beat Shardless BUG, 3+ color Delver, Infect, and MUD, which were 6 of my 9 rounds.
Umezawa's Jitte - If I have some mana, combat was always in my favor.
Gurmag Angler - When I delved properly, it stopped Tarmogoyfs and avoided common removal spells all day. I played against a lot of them, so with Dack Fayden helping to stock the graveyard, I want to try a 3rd main.

Cards I did not like:
True-Name Nemesis - Sometimes I didn't have 3 mana to cast him. Other times in this tourney, I got blown out by Toxic Deluge, Night of Souls' Betrayal, and Golgari Charm. Since Young Peezy + tokens also die to all of those, I don't want 2 TNNs anymore.
Kolaghan's Command - It's versatile, but too expensive for what I needed throughout the day.
Grim Lavamancer & Forked Bolt - I thought I'd face Delver and Deathrites and little white creatures all day. I instead lost to Tarmogoyfs.

Cards I want to try:
Baleful Strix & Murderous Cut - I want nice answers to Tarmogoyfs.
Notion Thief - Now that I want 2 Dack Faydens main deck, I gotta consider him somewhere in the 75, right? [emoji5]

I might be playing in a $1K legacy tournament on December 19th, so if I do, I'll ask some more questions leading up to that.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[LordOMJ]

Hi Lightless, this was my list for the Legaxy Open:

--snip--

Dack Fayden was already falling out of favor when Cruise and DTT were legal in the format. Without a substantial payoff spell I think he gets much harder to justify. I think the lessons from that era still apply. If more filtering and card selection is what you want then I think Preordain (or now Jace, Vyrn's Prodigy) are the cards you should be looking at. I like Command a lot as a sideboard card - it's where you want to be against D&T - but I get not wanting it maindeck. I think Strix and Murderous Cut are great replacements for TNN and Command. Neither helps with being soft to -x/-x effects, but GAngler helps with that. I've run a singleton JTMS in the past for exactly that reason. 4 is a lot of mana, but as a 1 of you can dig to it and don't end up with it early too often. Forked Bolt and Lavamancer are also valuable against elves, infect, and D&T - I feel like they'd compete for spots with EE, Demise, etc. from the board though, so I think cutting them is very defensible.

[Delvis]

Am I to understand from this post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5460-DTBF-Philosophy-amp-Deck-Selection&p=921737&viewfull=1#post921737) that we're lumping all the Grixis Control and Grixis Delver lists together into a deck called 'Grixis Pyromancer' and then putting the Grixis Control thread into DTB, when in reality the Delver build is vastly more popular and is putting up far more results?

[Dice_Box]

Am I to understand from this post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5460-DTBF-Philosophy-amp-Deck-Selection&p=921737&viewfull=1#post921737) that we're lumping all the Grixis Control and Grixis Delver lists together into a deck called 'Grixis Pyromancer' and then putting the Grixis Control thread into DTB, when in reality the Delver build is vastly more popular and is putting up far more results?

Di PM'ed me for clarification but I was in bed. It will be fixed today.

[Delvis]

Di PM'ed me for clarification but I was in bed. It will be fixed today.

Thanks, I think this is to the benefit of the community.

[carnifex]

I'm still having success with this archetype. Lent a version (check my previous post) after going 7-2 in an event myself. My friend lost his win-and-in to eventual winner Dylan Donegan, with multiple harsh mulligans.

Check my friend's result here:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=97048

And check out a recent article by myself:

http://manadeprived.com/grixis-control-legacy/

[JosephK]

I'm still having success with this archetype. Lent a version (check my previous post) after going 7-2 in an event myself. My friend lost his win-and-in to eventual winner Dylan Donegan, with multiple harsh mulligans.

Check my friend's result here:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=97048

And check out a recent article by myself:

http://manadeprived.com/grixis-control-legacy/

I'd like to congratulate you for both your results and your very well written article.

Still, I'm not convinced. Painful truths is quite bad against Tempo decks, that's why you have 1 murderous cut 1 innocent blood 1 forked bolt as non bolt removals (I don't quote Kolaghan which can be used differently), among which only 2 deal with tarmogoyf (+jace if opponent = non tempo) and that you can't really find as you could have with dig.
These 3 cards are quite useless in the Miracle MU (as well as bolt to a certain extent). And unlike Dig, Painful is very hard to cast against Miracle, since you will most likely tap out and open yourself to Entreat/CB/Mentor. In my opinion, Grixis has to be a reactive deck as long as CB is in the metagame, which Painful Truths can't provide. My guess is that you will have hard time beating any decent Miracle player (I know how easy it is when the Miracle player doesn't know what he's doing - ie keeping stp postboard for instance, etc).

But, if you still have faith in this deck, which I can only support, I would suggest some sulfur elemental in the sideboard. Also I would play null rod instead of needle. I find Ob nyxilis a bit narrow (here mainly for shardless I assume ; I think you can have better - against Miracle, taping 5 for a threat that can be dealt with by Mentor doesn't seem great). You should also try grim lavamancer in the sideboard (if so, remove forked bolt main). I would also play more flusterstorm in the sideboard.

[Slayer89]

I'm still having success with this archetype. Lent a version (check my previous post) after going 7-2 in an event myself. My friend lost his win-and-in to eventual winner Dylan Donegan, with multiple harsh mulligans.

Check my friend's result here:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=97048

And check out a recent article by myself:

http://manadeprived.com/grixis-control-legacy/
Any idea what the 60th card was? Just curious since the list in the scg link only shows 59 cards.

Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk

[carnifex]

Thanks for the replies thus far. To respond to some criticism from you, JosephK

You write:

"Painful truths is quite bad against Tempo decks, that's why you have 1 murderous cut 1 innocent blood 1 forked bolt as non bolt removals (I don't quote Kolaghan which can be used differently), among which only 2 deal with tarmogoyf (+jace if opponent = non tempo) and that you can't really find as you could have with dig."

This is all true, though I haven't been convinced that the consequences are as you make them out. In the case of painful truths against tempo, I have been cutting them post-board. My friend's mistake in his win-and-in was to leave them in, where he was punished accordingly. That said, the pieces of spot removal go some distance and you up your interaction against delver variants post-board. Dismember is the removal-piece of choice precisely because of Tarmogoyf, and with respect to Tarmo the logic thus far has been that Young Pyromancer simply outclasses him once things get moving.

You then say:

"These 3 cards are quite useless in the Miracle MU (as well as bolt to a certain extent). And unlike Dig, Painful is very hard to cast against Miracle, since you will most likely tap out and open yourself to Entreat/CB/Mentor. In my opinion, Grixis has to be a reactive deck as long as CB is in the metagame, which Painful Truths can't provide. My guess is that you will have hard time beating any decent Miracle player (I know how easy it is when the Miracle player doesn't know what he's doing - ie keeping stp postboard for instance, etc)."

I can't speak to the skill level of the miracles opponents I've faced thus far, except that they've seemed relatively competent (of course that doesn't say much, especially given the skill requisite for strong legacy play). You're right that the spot removal is poor against them (murderous cut has a reasonable chance of killing a mentor under a CB, worst case scenario), and we cut most of it post board in order to bring in pyroblasts, Ob Nixilis, Tar Pit, Needle, and Clique. It's been a smooth transformation for me, most of the time. As for casting painful truths, I haven't found it to be a liability at all. You always need to be smart when you cast the card. Situations in which they go on to resolve a CB right afterwards can be (and should be) mitigated by waiting to cast PT until you have the prospect of holding up additional mana for a pre-emptive therapy or counter. Alternatively, save your forces as you normally would. Cabal Therapy simplifies the game state just by being played, and so the scenario in which your miracles opponent is resource-rich by the time you cast PT are not as ubiquitous as you might think, at least in my experience.

Finally:

"But, if you still have faith in this deck, which I can only support, I would suggest some sulfur elemental in the sideboard. Also I would play null rod instead of needle. I find Ob nyxilis a bit narrow (here mainly for shardless I assume ; I think you can have better - against Miracle, taping 5 for a threat that can be dealt with by Mentor doesn't seem great). You should also try grim lavamancer in the sideboard (if so, remove forked bolt main). I would also play more flusterstorm in the sideboard."

I do like sulfur elemental. I've opted for Staticaster because A) it pitches to force and B) has wider applications against other archetypes (and pyro mirrors). Finding room for both is a possibility, though I'm not sure what your thoughts would be in that department. Null Rod is a card I always love to find room for: Needle has been chosen because it has applications against Lands, which is a real consideration these days. Finding room for both, again, is a possibility for which I'm not too certain how to proceed. On Ob Nixilis, you note its manacost as the primary issue: I think JTMS is not so different in this regard, and if your opponent is going to slam a mentor right after, Nixilis can kill it on the untap (though not any tokens that may have been generated, hopefully without the double-top engine). If Mentor's already in play, then indeed you're just slamming Nixilis to kill it. The reason to play control is to prevent Mentor from being on board too frequently. Moreover, if mentor's already in play, slamming a Jace is perhaps equally poor, or worse.

Lastly, you say that we can jam more flusterstorms - my friend had similar misgivings about our fast combo matchups. Any suggestions on what to cut?


Also, @Slayer89, the final card is a mainboard JTMS.

[Pellenik]

*necro time*

I wanted to share the list I've 4-0'd the last 2 dailys with on modo, for reference:

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-daily-2016-01-28

I've been going back n forth between this, more controlling build, and another lower to the ground build featuring 4 drs and less countermagic, but the controlling version suits my personal playstyle a bit better.
Nothing groundbreaking by any stretch but though you lot might appreciate seeing that the deck can perform, even though it's tier 2 nowdays.

Also, the 2nd Mire should be 4th Tarn but was not been changed for budget reasons.
Just removed my basic Mountain for the 3rd Island, which led to switching 3rd U. Sea for Badlands to have access to 4 featchable red sources. Black is almost a "splashcolour" and one of the best axis of attack against the deck is going after the red mana, a little less so for this blueheavy build, but still..
Hopefully the deck will function without the basic Mountain but time will tell, but it's almost like playing 18 lands with it since it's not possible to keep a 1 lander with only Mountain.
The deck probably wants to 20th land as well, which should imply cutting Izzet Charm or 2nd Painful Truths, but I'm greedy... So greedy... ^^

[JosephK]

Nice to see some results from the deck.

My advice would be to completely cut the overrated painful truths and try a 1-of skeletal scrying instead. Also, I'm not a fan of Spell Pierce / Izzet Charm in the deck. What about Kolaghan's Command ? The card seems very good as a 1 of in a snapcaster deck. I could even see 2 in there.

[Pellenik]

Regarding your concerns JosephK.

- In my opinion Painful Truth is not overrated, I even go as far as considering it MVP in several MUs, especially Miracle, Shardless and midrange-ish decks.
I could see trying our Skeletal Scrying though, hav't tried that card for 7 or 8 years probably, might be good.

- I've been playing Kolaghan's Command though for the last 2 months and havn't been overly impressed to be honest. It has it's moments when it really shines, but those tend to be few and far between. Might be that the meta on modo is less favourable for it since you don't get to play against alot of fringier decks. It's really good value in the delver MUs but as a 3drops demands a great deal of setup. Sweet card though.

Have you had any experience with the changes you're suggesting..?

[HSCK]

Nice to see some results from the deck.

My advice would be to completely cut the overrated painful truths and try a 1-of skeletal scrying instead. Also, I'm not a fan of Spell Pierce / Izzet Charm in the deck. What about Kolaghan's Command ? The card seems very good as a 1 of in a snapcaster deck. I could even see 2 in there.

I haven't seen Skeletal Scrying be good in any deck in a very long time, and it's certainly not as good as Painful Truths has been.

[JosephK]

I have tested the deck since the banning of dig through time, obviously, especially since GP Seattle. I also tested Painful Truths as a 1, 2 or 3 of in different Grixis lists (with daze, even with ascension). My post is not a one liner since I already explained why Truths was not reliable vs Miracle (thanks for your input hsck btw).

My point is that Painful truths remains a conditional card : it is close to uncastable in several MUs, and goes against the "spirit" of the deck against combo and Miracle, which involves choices that you shouldn't make ; Truths into force on CB/Mentor is a lot worse than snap counterspell, just to give an example. Certainly, this 3 mana sorcery is great against Shardless, Jund, midrangy decks, but this isn't the whole metagame. Kolahgan s command is a grinding tool which has broader application in my opinion. Painful Truths needs Deathrite Shaman and Decay to be good in legacy.

Skeletal scrying can be cast versus delver (for 2 or 1) even if you end up boarding it out G2, is almost as good versus Jund/Shardless (sometimes better, when I need to hold a counerspell during their turn, sometimes worse), and is a lot better vs Miracle and Combo, which allows nice eot setups (into mainphase threat). You should test it.

[Pellenik]

Greetings :)

Just wanted to check back with some updates.
Ive been testing Skeletal Scrying over the weekend, was supposed to play in two live tourney but they fell through. But managed to play 4-5 DEs and 4 8mans on modo, and some random 1v1s, so some testing at least.
Thanks JosephK, the card has really been performing well, it suits the style of the deck very well and in the MUs where it shines it's incredibly powerful. Tha ability to consistently draw 4-5 cards EOT in the grindier MUs has proven powerful, very nice catch.

Cheers

[fluuu]

Greetings :)

Just wanted to check back with some updates.
Ive been testing Skeletal Scrying over the weekend, was supposed to play in two live tourney but they fell through. But managed to play 4-5 DEs and 4 8mans on modo, and some random 1v1s, so some testing at least.
Thanks JosephK, the card has really been performing well, it suits the style of the deck very well and in the MUs where it shines it's incredibly powerful. Tha ability to consistently draw 4-5 cards EOT in the grindier MUs has proven powerful, very nice catch.

Cheers


Post list pleasE?

[tescrin]

Personally, my friend and I have been running Sulfur's in the main. They're more relevant than they seem for dodging counterspells, killing D&T, getting around Counterbalance/trumping Mentor, and killing Planeswalkers with psuedo-haste (EoT casting.)

We've kept running it since it hasn't screwed us; although normally it's just an odd beater instead of a game-changer.

[Pellenik]

Post list pleasE?

Decklist is a few posts up for reference :)
Running the same list with the exeption of Skeletal over Painful and a Disfigure over the Ghaslty in board, due to not wanting to rely on graveyardsize while playing Skeletal.

[rubblekill]

I have tested the deck since the banning of dig through time, obviously, especially since GP Seattle. I also tested Painful Truths as a 1, 2 or 3 of in different Grixis lists (with daze, even with ascension). My post is not a one liner since I already explained why Truths was not reliable vs Miracle (thanks for your input hsck btw).

My point is that Painful truths remains a conditional card : it is close to uncastable in several MUs, and goes against the "spirit" of the deck against combo and Miracle, which involves choices that you shouldn't make ; Truths into force on CB/Mentor is a lot worse than snap counterspell, just to give an example. Certainly, this 3 mana sorcery is great against Shardless, Jund, midrangy decks, but this isn't the whole metagame. Kolahgan s command is a grinding tool which has broader application in my opinion. Painful Truths needs Deathrite Shaman and Decay to be good in legacy.

Skeletal scrying can be cast versus delver (for 2 or 1) even if you end up boarding it out G2, is almost as good versus Jund/Shardless (sometimes better, when I need to hold a counerspell during their turn, sometimes worse), and is a lot better vs Miracle and Combo, which allows nice eot setups (into mainphase threat). You should test it.

Can you post your current 75 please?

[cdsboy]

I've been playing around with grixis control for the past 6 months or so (absolutely love young pyromancer and cabal therapy), but I've found I've had issues with basically running out of gas with the deck. I decided to take a page out of Philipp Schönegger's book after his post about show and tell with stone blade last month. I've had pretty good results in playtesting on MTGO and at local tournaments with this deck and was wondering if you guys had any thoughts.

4 Young Pyromancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Griselbrand

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Counterspell
1 Spell Pierce

4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Show and Tell

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard:
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Null Rod
2 Pyroclasm
2 Blood Moon
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Murderous Cut

The manabase is suboptimal because I do not own Scalding Tarns at the moment and I'm not solid on the sideboard yet.

[sea]

hello there! longtime grixis/rug delver player here. id been playing grixis delver a lot recently, and have been having a pretty high level of success with that deck, which led me to want to try slightly new things. this deck has peaked my interest, due to its vastly improved matchup against lands due to the inclusion of the blood moons in the sideboard. i took a non-optimal list due my lgs a few weeks ago and ended with a 2-2 record.

this saturday, i took a what i consider complete list to the lgs and went 3-1. the list was very similar to the finnish masters (?) winner:

2x underground sea
2x volcanic island
2x tropical island
1x badland
4x polluted delta
4x flooded strand (should be steam vents, but i dont have them; in my 8 rounds of tournament play it hasnt mattered once)
2x bloodstained mire
1x island
1 x swap

4x young pyromancer
2x snapcaster mage
1x true-name nemesis
1x tasigur
4x deathrite shaman

4x ponder
4x brainstorm
3x cabal therapy
3x gitaxian probe
1x spell snare
4x force of will
4x lightning bolt
2x abrupt decay
2x painful truths

2x JTMS

SB:
1x pyroblast
1x REB
1x engineered explosives
1x diabloic edict
1x murderous cut
1x rakdos charm
1x pithing needle
1x null rod
2x blood moon
2x surgical extraction
1x flusterstorm
1x envelop
1x ob nixilis

R1- affinitty (with tezz) 2-1 [1-0]

Game one, im able to destroy his manabase with double abrupt decay and win pretty easily after. I think he also mulliganed. Game two was close, he pulls way ahead early. I stabilize and start to come back on low life with an active deathrite. He pulls a tezz and has just the right amount of artifacts (4) to get me even with a deathrite activation that turn. Game three, I get a YP going early and draw two cabal therapies before he can completely dump his hand and its game. I didnt side in blood moon game 2, but I think that was a mistake and they came in game 3 (though i didnt draw them).

R2- charbelcher 0-2 [1-1]

I dont know what hes on, and i draw a hand without force of will. He wins the die roll and goes off with belcher turn one. Game two I draw a pithing needle, Fow, envelop, and cabal therapy, so Im feeling pretty good. I open turn one with needle on belcher. His hand was amazing (which I see because he land grants). He had the perfect mana to keep me from disrupting his combo with a fow because he was holding pyroblast. He ends up with 16 goblin tokens, and i cant come back.

R3- burn 2-0 [2-1]

He comes out quickly and gets me low before he is hellbent and i stabilize. A deathrite shaman gains me 6-8 life over the course of this game and I win it at 1 life. He definitely should have killed the deathrite, and he made a couple other bad plays (i remember he searing blazed by deathrite for one when he had a steam vents in play). We ran out of creatures in the gy, but the turn before i can kill him i draw a jace and fateseal a bloodstained mire to the top of his library. It was a long one wherein we both drew a bunch of lands.

Game two

I get an early yp and draw a couple cabal therapies and wrap it up fairly quickly. Dont remember much about this one.

R4- Lands with EE main [3-1]

He draws two EEs and keeps my creatures off board for a bit. He makes a mistake and sets one of the EEs at 3 preemptively. I draw a YP and get 4-5 tokens which start beating him up. He has a punishing fire going, but it cant keep up with my YP who gets replaced, and his PF gets countered at least once. He was moving back into control of the game, but I snagged it before he could get rid of the YP tokens.

Game two, painful truths draws me into double FOW and surgical when he is about to go crazy with double loam. He goes hellbent with his loams removed and nothing that meaningful on board. I think some combination of YP and deathrite shaman finish him off relatively quickly after.

I wrote this without my notes, so I apologize for lack of detail/ any inaccuracy (if my opponents are reading this). hopefully ill have another one of these next week.

overall thoughts: painful truths did a lot of work for me this time around. it was even really good against affinity one of the games. i ran kolghans command the first tourney and liked the deck better without it. tasigur is neat in theory, but he was never activated in either tourney; i think i might sub him out for an angler or a strix. everything else felt pretty good. ob nixilis never did anything, but ive yet to play miracles, so i may keep him in the board. i think the deck is definitely weaker than the delver variants, as delver helps you steal a lot of games early, but the midrange/control build def has its advantages. JTMS, blood moon, and painful truths all make the grindier games much more advantageous.

[mkmeade]

I am playing a deverless delver list currently and would like some opinions. Have had pretty good success online, 50/50 Miracles and Shardless Matchup, Great delver/stoneblade matchup, no testing against Death and Taxes, horrible Lands Matchup, very little testing with Combo, but currently not looking very good haha!!! Any advice is very appreciated.
Creatures:
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x True-Name Nemesis
1x Gurmag Angler
1x Baleful Strix
Spells:
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Gitaxian Probe
1x Painful Truths
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
1x Kolaghan's Command
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Spell Snare
2x Terminate
Lands:
1x Badlands
2x Volcanic Island
2x Underground Sea
3x Island
1x Swamp
1x Mountain
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Polluted Delta
1x Ghost Quarter/Wasteland
Sideboard:
2x Grim Lavamancer
1x Izzet Staticaster
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Flusterstorm
1x Rakdos Charm
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Pyroblast
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Pithing Needle
2x Blood Moon

[cdsboy]

I would consider running a Jace, the Mind Scuptor or two. Its a great threat that can easily help you stabilize a bunch of board states. If you're having trouble with storm, I'd consider trying to working in an increased number of spell pierce, flusterstorm, and/or surgical extraction into your list. You should be able to easy land a single threat and then sit back with counter magic and therapies while your storm opponent fails to assemble a combo.

[Jon]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160517/5b89e954f4699a12d2c2c615191ea40d.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160517/c17e62118da45362c7b390f48f794428.jpg

This is my latest list, considering this for GP Columbus and E weekend, thoughts?

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[now]

What’s the card under the Jaces?

[Jon]

What’s the card under the Jaces?
Undermine

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[btm10]

Looks solid to me, but I have a few questions. How much better is Undermine than Countersquall from your testing? Is MD Pyroblast worth it? And what's your plan against Counterbalance? Has the 1-of Explosives out of the been enough alongside your counters?

[Jon]

I played 4-5 games tonight against a local miracles player looking to get better, won all except 1. Best card in the deck was Painful Truths. Probably want a 2nd card in the SB to beat CB.

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[btm10]

I played 4-5 games tonight against a local miracles player looking to get better, won all except 1. Best card in the deck was Painful Truths. Probably want a 2nd card in the SB to beat CB.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

That's good to hear, and it looks like you've got a solid plan against everything else. Painful Truths has been great in every UBx control deck where I've tried it except BUG, and I think that's mostly due to me not having enough 1-mana removal in those colors. Is the Unearth just there as a value play?

[sdematt]

How did you like my Unearth Tech?

[Jon]

I always like Unearth, it may be better as a reanimate but meh. Also need to put moons in the bosrd.

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[deaded]

I am considering buying into this deck and I was wondering how the Eldrazi match up goes? How is Blood Moon do in the SB?

Thanks guys!

[tescrin]

I am considering buying into this deck and I was wondering how the Eldrazi match up goes? How is Blood Moon do in the SB?

Thanks guys!

Young Pyros matter a lot. Dismembers are game changers. Daze is pretty alright. Gurmag Angler is quite good here.
I main a couple Kolaghan's to deal with Artifacts now myself, but someone may have a better solution. It's also decent against Shardless to undo their CA since you can nuke two obnoxious (non goyf) dudes in a go.

That's basically what it boils down to. You can add things like Liliana in the side to help grind, though Hymn may be better since their draws are terrible.

[Lormador]

I generally drift between decks, but I noticed that Gerry Thompson got 16th at GP Columbus with a Grixis control deck. I'm sure that wasn't the result he was going for, but (to my mind) variance plays a role, Gerry T has more than enough of a reputation to get a punter like myself to netdeck his decks, and it isn't (after all) a shabby finish.

I worked on Grixis Control a lot during the DTT era, but wasn't able to get it working. Somehow, Miracles always remained a tough matchup... so obviously I must have been doing something wrong. I figured that if I couldn't win with this thing when it was powered with DTT and had tier 1 status, I couldn't possibly win with it now.

I sleeved it up, and feeling it was quite strong, took it to a local tournament with no practice at all. Went 3-0, ID'ed 2 rounds, and promptly misplayed myself into oblivion in the semifinals: having Angler vs. Goyf superiority 4/5 vs. 5/5, I Pyroblasted my opponent's Baleful Strix, putting his Goyf over the edge before suffering a Force on my Lightning Bolt when I attempted to block and kill it. Having Painful Truths in hand, and my opponent out of gas except for the Force (which I'd seen from a Therapy a few turns before)... there were numerous plays I could have made that would not have resulted in my losing the game.

It is a hard deck to play well, but I feel that the value is definitely there, with Pyromancer + Therapy walking me through many matchups. I don't know how this list seems to have escaped notice to a large extent because it takes a pretty special pile of cards to get a scrub like me shaking hands and slinging Modern into the top 8. I wish I could thank Gerry directly for releasing this sweet stack of expensive cardboard: it's a little like Shardless but with zero hoops to jump through for the value.

After all, what would you rather have for three mana, Shardless Agent into Hymn to Tourach or Young Pyromancer + Cabal Therapy.

EDIT BELOW

Well, it's been some time now and with school out for the summer (I'm a teacher), I've had time a jam a bunch of games against all kinds of folks. The deck is the real deal, and the top 8 was not a fluke at all. I have begun to personalize the deck in a way that might make it worse overall, as I'm no Gerry Thompson planning for a GP, but which may be better for my particular metagame.

Here's Gerry's original decklist: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/430174#online

...how anyone can look at that 75 and not be overcome with the desire to play it is beyond me.

Here's what's happened so far. I tried the singleton Daze, I really did. I played having no real clue what it was for, and I was not able to figure out what it was for during the course of play (unless it was just blue count, which can be an issue). As I'm trying to play Jace in this deck, the Daze came up as a candidate for removal.

Speaking of Jace, well, I love the guy and even won a few games with his ultimate (and of course plenty with his Brainstorm). I have enjoyed Unsummon on a stick as well, and I've pitched a few to Force of Will (with a sigh, of course). However, with Wasteland and the Daze, and of course no basic lands at all, I have sometimes struggled to get him into play at all. Against other tempo decks, he's been an all-star (winning more games than he got Dazed). Against Miracles, he's been nice but it's hard to keep him alive against a stream of Pyroblasts. Against Nic Fit, he's been hilariously overpowered, but who cares about that MU? I think it's a pretty mixed bag.

I am also of the opinion that 4 Wasteland in this deck may be a tad greedy, since it is running walkers and 3 mana sorceries. Savvy opponents aim for the black mana, and I have been threatened with being cut off the color a couple of times (one time actually cut off the color).

The first round of adjustments to the deck I've made are:
-1 Daze
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-1 Wasteland
+1 Cabal Therapy (freeing a SB slot)
+2 Liliana of the Veil
+1 Creeping Tar Pit
SB: +1 Garruk Relentless

My local meta has a lot of Miracles, DnT, and BUG Delver. The combo decks are Sneaky Show (mostly) and ANT (rarely).

A lot of people who don't know me very well see a few cards from this deck and assume that it's Grixis Delver and I just didn't draw my Delver yet. This causes them to play around Daze: so why should I bother to actually have the card that they're playing around? On the other hand, Cabal Therapy as a 4-of means I can freely fire the first one whenever I want, even T1 with Young Pyromancer in hand. While I'm no Gerry T, my Therapies usually do hit. Young Pyromancer and 1 Therapy (and no Probe) is going to take a key card, maybe 2 at the outside. Young Pyromancer and 2 Therapies, on the other hand, is a straight Mind Twist, I have yet to encounter a hand that has survived with anything relevant after I have done this to it. Furthermore, there's a ton of DnT in my meta, and Therapy can really take the wind out of their sails. I've beaten Mother of Runes draws via Shaman drains and Elemental army swings, the little white guys aren't so tough without their toys. The card was in the board anyway and already a 3-of in the deck, so I don't think this change it too extreme.

The exchange of Jace for Liliana, on the other hand, is more radical. Really, it was a mana cost issue as well as a Miracles issue. My meta is simply infested with Miracles, and they can deal with a Jace easily (especially if they have a Countertop active). She's far from dead against tempo as well, in which matchups she's arguably better. She can kill Eldrazi too, though I haven't had the pleasure of doing this yet. I think T2 Liliana is more backbreaking than T3 Jace, and I really didn't relish those hard choices of Wasteland or keep hitting land drops to play Jace.

The problem is that a lot of the deck's sideboard cards are very strong, reactive cards and Liliana's +1 is awkward. A hand of Pyroblast, Abrupt Decay, Deathrite Shaman is not a comfortable tick up against a Miracles player with lands, no hand, and a Top: but do you not want to threaten the ultimate and wipe out that frightening Entreat the Angels manabase? On the other hand, most other decks give plenty of -2 opportunities that can be used to stockpile a useless land or other card for the tick ups... and with Elemental tokens as well as Baleful Strix providing such great defense against tempo creatures (especially BUG) while Liliana ticks away, I still think she's worth it despite the pain.

The Garruk Relentless is a testament to just how many Miracles players I have to deal with on a daily basis, and this guy has won games all by himself against Top, Counterbalance, Blood Moon, and an active Jace (against an opponent with 5 life, but I digress). I'd always wanted to play this guy, and almost played Xenagos the Reveler instead, and received final inspiration from the Brainstorm Show's Shardless BUG episode: their Shardless list features a Garruk Relentless, and the episode explains all the matchups it's good in. It should probably not be here, and it's doubtful that a sideboard slot is warranted on such a ridiculous walker castable only off of the 1-of Trop. However, as I've yet to lose with him in play, and as he actively draws consternation from my endless series of Miracles opponents, he passes testing session 2.

Any advice or assistance on this deck would be highly appreciated. This thing is great!

[theMonster]

I, too, was inspired by Gerry's list and took a modified version of it to my FNM last night and 3-0d despite making potentially game-losing mistakes in each match - the deck bailed me out. I'll get to my list in a second, but I had questions for Lormador.

- This deck wants to cantrip and Cabal Therapy its way to victory with Young Pyromancer and/or beat down with Gurmag Angler. The Pyro kill requires a critical mass of spells in hand, so do you find that Liliana hinders your ability to hang onto resources to crank out Elementals? If you like Liliana - and I can definitely understand why - I might try shaving one Angler and running perhaps two Snapcaster Mages, especially with 20 lands. With Snapcaster you can run more fun-ofs, too.
- I've considered going down to 3 Wastelands as well. Do you find yourself activating Creeping Tar Pit very often? Even 20 lands with 3 Wastelands seems light to run a land that requires so much investment. Plus this deck has some tempo plays like T1 Shaman-into-T2 Pyro/Probe/Therapy, so an ETB-tapped land could severely hamper those openers. But if the juice is worth the squeeze, I'm all ears.
- I also thought about running Garruk Relentless. In which other matchups do you bring it in? I can imagine it being good against Shardless BUG, for example; it kills their non-Goyf threats, and you can sacrifice Wolves to find Gurmag Angler (or True-Name Nemesis, if you run it).
- Is Invasive Surgery worth it? Against Miracles, they're exiling or bottom-decking all your threats, so you'll rarely have creatures in the graveyard. With Lili, though, it's certainly easier to enable Delirium.

Anyways, here's what I ran last night to beat Death and Taxes, DeathBlade, and Eldrazi:


4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
3 Young Pyromancer
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Gurmag Angler

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
1 Painful Truths
1 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
4 Wasteland

// sideboard //

2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Pyroblast
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


Some thoughts:

- TNN was an absolute all-star last night. It single-handedly won me three games, including a game where my opponent landed his own Merfolk Rogue before me. And it makes for an easy one-for-one sideboard swap with Vendilion Clique against combo.
- 19 lands felt good, even when I boarded in the second Jace against DeathBlade; however, if I were to play the second Jace maindeck as well as the second Painful Truths, I'd run the 20th land.
- 13 threats in the maindeck (including Jace) also seemed solid. If I were to add one more, it would most likely be the fourth Pyromancer even though it's a poor topdeck. But I don't think it's necessary.
- The Spell Pierce was the 60th card and unimpressive in these (admittedly fair) matches. That's my flex slot right now. I'm open to all kinds of suggestions for it.
- Izzet Staticaster almost singe-handedly won me game 3 against Death and Taxes. I waffled over whether that should be a Fire Covenant, but, for now, the recursive pinger gets the nod. The sideboard in general was extremely powerful against last night's lineup, notably Ancient Grudge.

I'm considering a deeper green splash so I can run two Abrupt Decays maindeck instead of the 1/1 split. It did a lot of work for me yesterday, destroying everything from pesky creatures to Umezawa's Jitte to Chalice of the Void (and Endless One!). If so, I would make these changes:

-1 Wasteland, -1 Dismember (to sideboard), -1 Spell Pierce
+1 Tropical Island, +1 Abrupt Decay (from sideboard), +1 Sylvan Library

Losing a Wasteland makes Deathrite and Angler slightly worse, but the tradeoff would be opening up more green cards like Lormador's suggested Garruk Relentless. What do you guys think of that?

Thanks for reading!

EDIT: After some testing, the two Tropical Island/two maindeck Abrupt Decay plan is too greedy, so I'm going to return to my 1/1 split with one Trop. I will indeed shave a Wasteland, though, and replace it with a ninth fetchland.

[deaded]

Gerry talks a little about his list on his podcast, The GAM Podcast. It's episode 4.

Edit: listened again, he doesn't say much. He basically says that the 1 daze is wrong, and that he probably should have just played another deck.

[sdematt]

I'm working on a list still, I'll post tomorrow when I get back home. I think the deck still has tons of potential.

[btm10]

I haven't played this deck much lately, but Pyromancer Ascension is an insane sideboard card against Chalice and Counterbalance and is almost certainly worth two slots. I've considered CounterTop in this shell, but then you look a lot like a worse Mentor Miracles.

[sdematt]

I'm working on a list still, I'll post tomorrow when I get back home. I think the deck still has tons of potential.

So again, no results to really say yet, but I'll be trying it.

4 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Grim Lavamancer
10

2 Jace, TMS
1 Keranos, Gott dur Sturms
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
4

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Terminate
2 Fire/Ice
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Fire Covenant
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Painful Truths
25

3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Riptide Laboratory
20

2 Flusterstorm
2 Null Rod
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Sudden Demise
2 Pithing Needle
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Blood Moon
1 Slaughter Games
15

I still have a maindeck slot available. Might cut a Ponder for two Thoughtseize/interaction.

Foreseeable problems include 43 Lands.deck, and dealing with a Marit Lage. I don't have time this second to reason the list with choices, but I will later today.

-Matt

[maharis]

I love Keranos in this deck, flipping a bolt then bolting them is so sweet.

This is a Thing in the Ice version I was working on a while back that had an Intuition/Reanimate/Keranos package as another way to grind out wins.

I really like Reanimate in Baleful Strix decks. Have you considered that?

Honestly, with Snapcaster, Unearth is probably kind of better since you can cycle than Snap it, but you can't get Keranos or dudes that you Thoughtseize out of their hand with it so it's a balance.

Anyway, I don't think this is incredible, but I gave it a shot. Needs some more work.

4 Thing in the Ice
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Keranos, God of Storms

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Thoughtseize
2 Reanimate
2 Intuition
1 Murderous Cut
1 Kolaghan's Command

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire

[H]

So again, no results to really say yet, but I'll be trying it.
I still have a maindeck slot available. Might cut a Ponder for two Thoughtseize/interaction.

Foreseeable problems include 43 Lands.deck, and dealing with a Marit Lage. I don't have time this second to reason the list with choices, but I will later today.

-Matt

I like the look of the list, 2 Counterspells? Be still my beating heart!

However, I really don't care for Ashiok. I know at times it could be good, but I still feel like it's often just not relevant. Maybe it's good verses Eldrazi? One thing to consider here could be Dack Fayden. With two Fire//Ice, his ultimate could be hilariously good here, it would be quite funny versus Lands decks, were you able to get it to go (most Lands decks seem to be cutting Decay of late).

[Lormador]

I, too, was inspired by Gerry's list and took a modified version of it to my FNM last night and 3-0d despite making potentially game-losing mistakes in each match - the deck bailed me out. I'll get to my list in a second, but I had questions for Lormador.

- This deck wants to cantrip and Cabal Therapy its way to victory with Young Pyromancer and/or beat down with Gurmag Angler. The Pyro kill requires a critical mass of spells in hand, so do you find that Liliana hinders your ability to hang onto resources to crank out Elementals? If you like Liliana - and I can definitely understand why - I might try shaving one Angler and running perhaps two Snapcaster Mages, especially with 20 lands. With Snapcaster you can run more fun-ofs, too.
- I've considered going down to 3 Wastelands as well. Do you find yourself activating Creeping Tar Pit very often? Even 20 lands with 3 Wastelands seems light to run a land that requires so much investment. Plus this deck has some tempo plays like T1 Shaman-into-T2 Pyro/Probe/Therapy, so an ETB-tapped land could severely hamper those openers. But if the juice is worth the squeeze, I'm all ears.
- I also thought about running Garruk Relentless. In which other matchups do you bring it in? I can imagine it being good against Shardless BUG, for example; it kills their non-Goyf threats, and you can sacrifice Wolves to find Gurmag Angler (or True-Name Nemesis, if you run it).
- Is Invasive Surgery worth it? Against Miracles, they're exiling or bottom-decking all your threats, so you'll rarely have creatures in the graveyard. With Lili, though, it's certainly easier to enable Delirium.

I was getting super results, similar to yours, against Delver, Miracles, and Eldrazi. DnT matchups weren't too bad either, about even. The problem I ran into, and it's a brick wall, is Punishing Fire decks. The Fires kill almost everything this deck brings on to the field.

Liliana was a mixed bag, she's only good when there's a steady stream of things to Edict. In those MUs where you just get to tick her up forever, like Miracles where she's normally so boss, there's a lot of pain as those +1s can often involve losing solid, reactive spells like Pyroblast against an opponent who is empty handed with a Top. Not good, I don't think it's worthwhile. I don't think Snapcaster would help either, that's just another card I would want to hold in hand until I can get full value from it.

Tar Pit, on the other hand, worked out pretty well and got in for the last 3-9 points in quite a few games. ETB tapped was not a liability because that card had been a Wasteland before: and not much in the deck uses Wasteland for spell mana. Mostly Tar Pit is making mana, but look at it this way, after you clean the enemy hand with Therapy the Tar Pit becomes safe to activate and close out the game with.

Garruk Relentless I'd bring in against Shardless, certainly. I take that page out of their very own playbook, where they bring it in for the mirrors. They can't do the same to us, haha, because we just bolt their walkers.

I don't think Invasive Surgery is worth it, because this deck should really be on 2+ Surgical Extractions to get those cursed Punishing Fires. Jund is just a super annoying deck to face, it really crushes this. It's an interesting creation and faces off beautifully against the whole DTB section, but I think against the rest of the field it has some problems. I must admit that I'm not entirely mature about this either, and I have been playing UG Cloudpost. My meta has so much Miracles and DnT that I feel the need to get absolutely prehistoric on them.

Where I left off in testing was seriously considering a Rakdos Charm in the SB as an extra way to get enemy Jittes and Batterskulls and backup grave hate for Fires and whatever else. There's Ancient Grudge, but the single green source is unreliable against DnT, the format's premier equipment deck. Batterskull is easy to face down in the early turns, just Therapy it away along with every other problem, but if it enters the action late in the game it can deal with nearly all the deck's threats by itself.

I didn't like the idea of Dack in this deck, as much as I love the card. It requires bad-ish cards to run in addition, and we don't Delve like we used to in the DTT days. His win con doesn't necessarily do that much since removal tends to be lethal in the first place, and stealing equipment is not as good as it sounds when you look into it.

[sdematt]

I like the look of the list, 2 Counterspells? Be still my beating heart!

However, I really don't care for Ashiok. I know at times it could be good, but I still feel like it's often just not relevant. Maybe it's good verses Eldrazi? One thing to consider here could be Dack Fayden. With two Fire//Ice, his ultimate could be hilariously good here, it would be quite funny versus Lands decks, were you able to get it to go (most Lands decks seem to be cutting Decay of late).

Ashiok is sub-par a few times, but it is a control walker and a win-con against Miracles. Mill is pretty good, and getting Tarmogoyfs out of other decks has been pretty good. I could easily see Dack here to feed Grim and Snap, though. Or, just another Keranos to shit all over midrange and control. Fire/Ice has also been VERY solid for tapping down attackers/blockers and nuking small dudes.

[H]

Ashiok is sub-par a few times, but it is a control walker and a win-con against Miracles. Mill is pretty good, and getting Tarmogoyfs out of other decks has been pretty good. I could easily see Dack here to feed Grim and Snap, though. Or, just another Keranos to shit all over midrange and control. Fire/Ice has also been VERY solid for tapping down attackers/blockers and nuking small dudes.

Haven't gotten a chance to try this list yet, but in thinking more, Ashiok does seem like it could even be OK versus Lands, but certainly not great. I think if you really want to beat Lands, two "extraction" effects are a much more certain way. I really like Slaughter Games here, because it is much easier to hit Fires with that, meaning you can easily use something like Surgical on Loam.

One reason I was considering Dack is that his filtering can be crucial in sideboarded games with decks like Lands, where you only have a few key pieces of hate that you pretty much need to be able to win. His ultimate could also just be gravy with all the Bolts and Fire//Ice, which versus 'Goyf holding them at bay with Strix then stealing them with Dack would just be too funny not to try to pull off. The other reason is that I traded my Ashioks a long time ago when people were playing it in Standard, :tongue:

I am on a different deck for tonight and probably Tin-Fins for the next week if a pending trade works out, but I am definitely looking to get this going soon.

[Vandalize]

Sup guys, I don't know if this list is considered Grixis Control, but I think it is. I've been playing with Dack Fayden maindeck for a while, since my meta is loaded with Death and Taxes, but I guess that's not the correct choice for an unknown meta.

My list, for reference:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Young Pyromancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Baleful Strix
1 Gurmag Angler
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Painful Truths
//61

SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Izzet Staticaster
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Dack Fayden
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Hydroblast
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Terminate
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
//15

This list has been working fine, but sideboard is a mess. I haven't tried it at all, just threw some random good cards in grixis colors. Any suggestions?

[Narcind]

So this just got spoiled:

http://mythicspoiler.com/kld/cards/saheelirai2.jpg

What do you guys think? Seems pretty good with pyromancer, snapcaster and strix in my opinion, I'm definitely going to try this one out.

[chaosjace]

Is this deck strong? or better in small shops?
I see Grixis Tempo in the "decks to beat" section, and I have found a few results from a control list but nothing too outstanding.

I like this version more I think because of the non basic land hate running around, I love Keranos and having fun, but I also like the idea of stifle + daze + wasteland.

I see no real way to deal with a 20/20 in this deck.

My meta is D+T, Miracles, Lands, Eldrazi, Delver, storm, and Reanimator.

I would like to see more development on this though.

[chaosjace]

I made a deck, a lot of things I like, a lot of bad things. Needs tuning. I was thinking Bituminous blast in the dragon slot, because cascade is a wonderful ability, it could also put a jace into play.
Instants 22
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
2x Terminate
2x Counterspell
1x Izzet Charm
1x Fire Covenant

Sorceries 7
1x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
2x Cabal Therapy

creatures 10
3x Young Pyromancer
3x Thing in the Ice (could become Anglers, but I like the option to board wipe)
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Keranos
1x Stormbreath Dragon

Planeswalkers 2
2x Jace the Mind Sculptor

Lands 19
1x Swamp
4x Polluted Delta
3x Volcanic Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Mountain
1x Flooded Strand
3x Island
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Tropical Island (for SB cards)
2x Scalding Tarn

I mainly want green for Decay in the SB, i can probably be persuaded out of it though.

[Leonardo77]

Hello Guys ,
this is a list that I'm testing from two weeks :

1 Badlands
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Baleful Strix
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
1 Dismember
1 Fire // Ice
4 Force of Will
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Painful Truths
4 Ponder
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
Sideboard:

1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dismember
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sudden Shock
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I have chosen not to play the combo Cabal terapy + Youg .... the strategy is based on control of the board .
This Deck (main 61 cards) has answers at more decks present in my meta game (Miracles , D&T , Delver deck , Grixis , esper , Eldrazi ) .



Ciao

[theMonster]

Anyone see this list and/or know the pilot?

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=13556&d=279764&f=LE

The week prior I had actually theory-crafted a list very similar to this, so I'm glad to see a Dack Fayden shell go 5-0.

What do y'all think? At first glance, the E.E./Academy Ruins loop looks a little slow and clunky; even Miracles abandoned that strategy long ago. But I could be wrong. Maybe I'd play something like Toxic Deluge instead or move the Sudden Demise to the maindeck. With three Dacks, Notion Thief perhaps graduates from cute to contender. I have zero experience with the card, so I'm curious how reliable it is. I also wonder how well-positioned Jace is right now. My (paper) meta contains a preponderance of DnT, so I don't think I'd rely heavily on him as a win condition. But, I mean, it's Jace ... he's pretty good.

The Unearth looks awesome and makes me want to play a third Snapcaster. And call me greedy, but a part of me wants to sleeve up a Delve creature, too, seeing as Dack will dump a bunch o' cards into the 'yard. Maybe Tombstalker is viable with four black sources, but I'm sure Angler would be fine. Adding two more creatures reliant on the graveyard would make the deck softer to Rest in Peace, but at least the deck runs Decays to deal with that need be.

Would love to hear from the pilot about his/her choices and how the deck performed. Great brew!

[theMonster]

After being inspired by this 5-0 list (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=13556&d=279764&f=LE) from earlier this week, I ran the following at FNM last night:

3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Tombstalker

3 Dack Fayden
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Brainstorm
1 Unearth

1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

// sideboard //

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
1 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Negate
1 Go for the Throat
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Fire Covenant
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Notion Thief

I got steamrolled by Eldrazi, lost a super close match to Lands (he had to topdeck exactly a Dark Depths and a second Maze of Ith to beat me in game 3 with Loam exiled with Surgical), drew against RUG Delver (our game 2 was about 35 minutes), and beat Slivers 2-0. The deck did powerful things, but it definitely can be optimized. Here were some takeaways:

- Jace was horrible. I always wanted to be doing something else with my mana, and the format seems to be favoring faster strategies. He would've been overrun. I'm not in the market for :2::u::u: Brainstorms.
- I think three Dacks is one too many. He was more impressive than I thought he'd be, rifling through the deck for the right business spells; however, three mana is a lot, and there were a few too many times when playing him would yield only a "double loot." Stealing Aether Vial was gas, though. I still want what he offers, but maybe one less copy.
- The curve in general was a little too high. There were too many turn 1 "land, go"s for my liking, making me want to play one or two Ponders or a couple Thoughtseizes and then swap out a piece of countermagic.
- The deck could use a little more pressure. Tombstalker was absolutely insane when I cast it, so perhaps I need one or two more beaters. I could play, say, two Goyfs and take out 'Stalker. That synergizes better with Unearth (which was amazing), yet it makes the mana worse by going deeper on the green splash. Playing Goyfs would probably prevent me from playing basic lands.

So I'm cutting the Jace and one Dack for sure and adding one Ponder to start. Cards I'm considering in the 75:

- two Goyfs
- Collective Brutality: can Escalate with Punishing Fire(?). (Rules question: can you Escalate if you flash it back with Snapcaster?)
- Kolaghan's Command: get back Snapcasters, kill Chalices and Batterskulls, two-for-one for days
- Izzet Charm: all three modes are useful, and it's blue for Force
- Intuition + Life from the Loam: make piles like Loam/Wasteland/Creeping Tar Pit, Snapcaster/Unearth/any spell, Loam/Grove/P. Fire, etc. Loam would also allow me to get back fetchlands to discard to Dack.

Open to any and all ideas. Thanks!

[Whitefaces]

Going to give this a spin at my LGS tonight. It's taken mostly from a 5-0 list on MTG Goldfish that I can't seem to find now. Just a few tweaks like adding a Dack and Reanimate because I think they're cool!

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage

1 Dack Fayden

4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Reanimate

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Murderous Cut
2 Kolaghan’s Command
2 Counterspell

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp

SB
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Dread of Night
1 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Blood Moon
1 Flusterstorm

[Whitefaces]

So I went 4-0 at my LGS tonight with the above list, it feels great.

Dack was Decayed, Judged by a Council and Forced on sight so didn't get to do much. I didn't draw the Reanimate, but the rest of the deck performed very well. I added a last minute Painful Truths to the SB and it felt especially powerful in this shell, much more so than from Delver SBs.

2-0 vs Junk.
2-0 vs Food Chain.
2-1 vs Elves. The loss was from a mull to 4.
2-1 vs Miracles. The loss was G1 that I threw and didn't Therapy a CB thanks to missing no lands in GYs for a DRS to eat.

[mistercakes]

Anyone see this list and/or know the pilot?

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=13556&d=279764&f=LE

The week prior I had actually theory-crafted a list very similar to this, so I'm glad to see a Dack Fayden shell go 5-0.

What do y'all think? At first glance, the E.E./Academy Ruins loop looks a little slow and clunky; even Miracles abandoned that strategy long ago. But I could be wrong. Maybe I'd play something like Toxic Deluge instead or move the Sudden Demise to the maindeck. With three Dacks, Notion Thief perhaps graduates from cute to contender. I have zero experience with the card, so I'm curious how reliable it is. I also wonder how well-positioned Jace is right now. My (paper) meta contains a preponderance of DnT, so I don't think I'd rely heavily on him as a win condition. But, I mean, it's Jace ... he's pretty good.

The Unearth looks awesome and makes me want to play a third Snapcaster. And call me greedy, but a part of me wants to sleeve up a Delve creature, too, seeing as Dack will dump a bunch o' cards into the 'yard. Maybe Tombstalker is viable with four black sources, but I'm sure Angler would be fine. Adding two more creatures reliant on the graveyard would make the deck softer to Rest in Peace, but at least the deck runs Decays to deal with that need be.

Would love to hear from the pilot about his/her choices and how the deck performed. Great brew!

this is one of the guys from the mediocre league. i know he streams a lot, or at least did when i last spoke to him a few months ago. he's the guy who was playing reanimator in that league.

[Whitefaces]

this is one of the guys from the mediocre league. i know he streams a lot, or at least did when i last spoke to him a few months ago. he's the guy who was playing reanimator in that league.

Yep, that's Tim “ziggy stardust” Akpinar (http://s623881501.online.de/meet-players-ziggy). From watching his stream a fair bit he seems very nice and enthusiastic so I'm sure would answer some questions if you message him.

[ziggy_stardust]

Yep, that's Tim “ziggy stardust” Akpinar (http://s623881501.online.de/meet-players-ziggy). From watching his stream a fair bit he seems very nice and enthusiastic so I'm sure would answer some questions if you message him.

Hey guys, I'm on vacation right now but I was actually planning to pen a guest post on Hipsters of the Coast on this deck when I get back, sometime next week (edit: I see that the link is still in my sig, but I am no longer a regular contributor because "adulting" got too hard and serious to maintain that commitment lol). Just to answer a few initial questions, the EE-Ruins engine might seem a little clunky, but I like having some spicy one-ofs because you see a ton of cards if Dack ever gets going. An earlier iteration of the list had Intuition in the 75 (which I may yet go back to) so you could do things like bin your p.fires or set up goofy packages where you always get what you want (e.g. ruins, crucible/loam, EE or any sb artifact you want; snappy, true-name, unearth). The matchups I faced en route to the 5-0 were: White Eldrazi, UR Delver, Elves, Miracles, and Shardless.

Lastly, I like the inclusion of K-command, suggested above, and may need to give that a try.

[MXG]

I was missing the iteration of Grixis Control that was so powerful during the TC/DTT days, so I brewed up a list reminiscent of those decks, adapted to the lack of overpowered Blue Delve spells. I built and took it to a weekly event last night, going 4-0, 8-0 in games. The deck felt so insane that I figured it was worth sharing.

I decided to eschew Deathrite, Abrupt Decay, and any other Green from the deck due to the sizable amount of Price of Progress and Blood Moon in my local meta. Going pure Grixis allowed me to run basics while maintaining the low land count that I desperately wanted. I built the list like this:

4 Young Pyromancer
3 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Innocent Blood

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Counterspell
1 Kolaghan's Command

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp

Sideboard:

2 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Dread of Night
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Flusterstorm
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Surgical Extraction

I took down Miracles (Predict), Dredge, Miracles again (Predict), and Burn. The only close games were Game 1 of Dredge and a Probe-heavy Game 1 hand against Burn. Against Miracles, as long as I kept CB off of the table, winning felt pretty trivial, as the YP + TNN easily overload their Termini, while Strix and SCM cantrip. Speaking of Strix and SCM, the high count of both of these are effectively what I'm using as the DTT/TC analogue. Instead of creating card advantage in large chunks with DTT/TC, creating many small bits of card advantage with Strix/SCM works almost as well. The Painful Truth is that I don't think Painful Truths is good in this deck. The 3 mana at sorcery speed is significant, and the life loss can be a huge liability.

If you have any questions or disagreements about card choice, or want more detail on how any games played out, please reply and I'd be happy to discuss.

[lilevo]

Do you think painful truths would be a good addition to the deck?

[MXG]

Do you think painful truths would be a good addition to the deck?

Some people swear by Painful Truths. However, I think the card can be a huge liability, and is especially bad in the matchups where you're already struggling. In matchups where Painful Truths is good, I think the deck is already favored.

[chaosjace]

Why not pieces of the puzzle

[Whitefaces]

Why not pieces of the puzzle

I do like the card and think it has potential in some combo decks, but not here, Truths is just better if you want raw card advantage.


Some people swear by Painful Truths. However, I think the card can be a huge liability, and is especially bad in the matchups where you're already struggling. In matchups where Painful Truths is good, I think the deck is already favored.

I by no means swear by Truths, I haven't played with it since it first came out and experimented with it in a BUG Delver SB. The first time I played this deck I had one in the SB and it was brutal against Miracles, but I think you're right, we're already fine in that matchup. I also play Decays for CB and Dread of Night for Mentor so have almost too many cards for them.

I'm playing in the main Legacy Showdown event this Saturday at GP London and will register something close to this. I like the MD for the most part, I want to try a Pia and Kiren Nalaar but the event is probably the wrong place to test things!

My other thought is the third Underground Sea vs a Badlands. Has it been awkward for you at all?

MXG, I will take your advise and cut the Truths from the SB leaving one more slot. I'm honestly not sure what the bad matchups for this deck are, it feels incredibly powerful. Maybe Eldrazi could be tough? We have all the tools to beat them, but their nut draws can be silly. I was considering Ensnaring Bridge last week. Or maybe a sweeper, Marsh Casualties or Sudden Demise. Now I think of it there is no answer for TNN if it resolves.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Young Pyromancer

4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Unearth
2 Counterspell
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Force of Will
2 Murderous Cut

4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
2 Dread of Night
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Blood Moon
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Flusterstorm
1 X - Ensnaring Bridge? Marsh Casualties?

[btm10]

Has anyone considered Sudden Shock as a 1 or 2-of out of the board? It's pretty great against Infect and Delver strategies and is by far the best answer to Mentor (other than countering it, obviously). Not that those matchups are horrible, but it's an effect I like having access to as the deck becomes more controlling.

[Whitefaces]

Has anyone considered Sudden Shock as a 1 or 2-of out of the board? It's pretty great against Infect and Delver strategies and is by far the best answer to Mentor (other than countering it, obviously). Not that those matchups are horrible, but it's an effect I like having access to as the deck becomes more controlling.

I hadn't considered it actually, but I think the Infect and Delver matchup is good already with what's in the MD and a couple of SB slots. And I prefer Dread of Night to fight Mentor as it answers any future ones too, a good card to have on the radar though, thanks for bringing it up.

Moving on, I'm going to try Arc Trail in the SB for creature decks, especially Grixis Delver. In theory it seems great, but may end up being worse than Sudden Shock would be :tongue:

This is where I'm at at the moment - https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/481855

[MXG]

My other thought is the third Underground Sea vs a Badlands. Has it been awkward for you at all?

In general, Badlands is not a good land. It says so right there! However, with the way I have the manabase built, there are 15 sources of Blue in the deck, which gives you an 88% chance of having a blue source in your opening 7 (same as a 19-land Delver deck). What Badlands allows me to do is keep hands of Basic Island + Fetchland, and have all 3 colors of mana available early, for plays like T1 Bolt + T2 Strix, or what have you. There are times that my UU felt a little strained, but I think the Badlands is still the right call since is makes unplayable hands into playable ones, as opposed to just making playable hands a little smoother, like the third USea would.


MXG, I will take your advise and cut the Truths from the SB leaving one more slot. I'm honestly not sure what the bad matchups for this deck are, it feels incredibly powerful. Maybe Eldrazi could be tough? We have all the tools to beat them, but their nut draws can be silly. I was considering Ensnaring Bridge last week. Or maybe a sweeper, Marsh Casualties or Sudden Demise. Now I think of it there is no answer for TNN if it resolves.

I like Marsh Casualties for your build. My plan against TNN was my own TNNs + going wide with Pyromancer, and over with Strix, while Gurmag discourages them to attempt racing. The Jittes in the sideboard were mercilessly plagiarized by Friedman's 4c Delver list, and they play very well with the maindeck TNN. I actually bring one of them in for the Miracles matchup, which allows me to get rid of their Snapcasters & threat of Mentors without spending a card each time to do so.

What's your rationale on Sulfur Elemental vs Dread of Night? I've liked them both (hence the 1-1 split), but I'm curious your thoughts since you are on the 2 Dread side of things.

[Whitefaces]

In general, Badlands is not a good land. It says so right there! However, with the way I have the manabase built, there are 15 sources of Blue in the deck, which gives you an 88% chance of having a blue source in your opening 7 (same as a 19-land Delver deck). What Badlands allows me to do is keep hands of Basic Island + Fetchland, and have all 3 colors of mana available early, for plays like T1 Bolt + T2 Strix, or what have you. There are times that my UU felt a little strained, but I think the Badlands is still the right call since is makes unplayable hands into playable ones, as opposed to just making playable hands a little smoother, like the third USea would.

I was asking some of my friends about this earlier and while typing up the pros and cons I convinced myself of the Badlands. As you say it makes turn one into turn two plays so much smoother. Agree with your reasoning!


I like Marsh Casualties for your build. My plan against TNN was my own TNNs + going wide with Pyromancer, and over with Strix, while Gurmag discourages them to attempt racing. The Jittes in the sideboard were mercilessly plagiarized by Friedman's 4c Delver list, and they play very well with the maindeck TNN. I actually bring one of them in for the Miracles matchup, which allows me to get rid of their Snapcasters & threat of Mentors without spending a card each time to do so.

What's your rationale on Sulfur Elemental vs Dread of Night? I've liked them both (hence the 1-1 split), but I'm curious your thoughts since you are on the 2 Dread side of things.

Yeah, you have a much more proactive plan so TNN is less of a problem. I'll give your build a spin next opportunity at my LGS, I like it a lot too!

Jitte is phenomenal in this deck, even without TNN as you have plenty of random bodies to equip it to (YP tokens, strix and snaps mostly), I've been considering a second as well but simply don't own another. It's great to control Mentor with a TNN like you say so bringing it in vs Miracles makes sense.

The decks I bring Dread/Sulfur in vs both have StP, Dread is simply much harder to remove and DnT now plays enough x/2s that pumping their power is a legitimate concern (3/1 Crusaders are scary!). I played 4C Delver at GP Prague and had two Sulfurs in my SB for Mentor and DnT, they went farming too many times for my liking.

[MXG]

The decks I bring Dread/Sulfur in vs both have StP, Dread is simply much harder to remove and DnT now plays enough x/2s that pumping their power is a legitimate concern (3/1 Crusaders are scary!). I played 4C Delver at GP Prague and had two Sulfurs in my SB for Mentor and DnT, they went farming too many times for my liking.

Totally reasonable. I played 4c Delver at GP SeaTac and ran Sudden Demise in that slot.

Something I really enjoy about Sulfur Elemental is the surprise factor can straight up win a game. For example, last week against a Miracles player, I had an unequipped Jitte with 2 counters on it. My opponent played a Mentor, and purposely left up mana to invalidate my Jitte. On his end step, I used one -1/-1 effect on Mentor, which he let resolve. I then played Sulfur Elemental, and took over the game. With a Dread of Night, he probably would have waited to find a Wear//Tear before playing the Mentor (which would be coming in anyway, and opens me up to 2-for-1s with Pithing Needle or Jitte + Dread of Night). Against D&T, however, Dread is certainly better, so no argument there.

[McFluffyStuff]

For some reason, I just can't stop playing Grixis Control in Legacy. The night before every Legacy tournament I go to, I normally sleeve up Grixis Control. This is my current deck list as of today and I will go into detail about some of my "odd" choices and see how you feel. It's time to make Grixis Control great again!

Planewalkers - 3
1x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1x Dack Fayden
1x Saheeli Rai

Creatures - 10
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Baleful Strix
4x Young Pyromancer

Spells - 29
1x Spell Pierce
1x Spell Snare
1x Dreadbore
1x Terminate
1x Painful Truths
1x Kolaghan's Command
1x Murderous Cut
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Gitaxian Probe
4x Brainstorm
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Ponder
4x Force of Will

Lands - 18
4x Bloodstaind Mire
4x Polluted Delta
4x Volcanic Island
4x Underground Sea
2x Badlands

Sideboard - 15
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Pithing Needle
1x Hydroblast
1x Pyroblast
1x Flusterstorm
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Rakdos Charm
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Kolaghan's Command
1x Notion Thief
1x Painful Truths
1x Perish
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Virtue's Ruin
1x Massacre

Now I will explain some of the "odd" choices in the deck a little bit.

Saheeli Rai - This one is a newer deck addition that has been doing some work so far, not fully sure if it's worth it. The Scry 1 and 1 damage has been okay in a grind game and the copy effect has been great. Being able to get a free Snap or double Pyromancer tokens has been bomb. Still not sure she is worth it but time will tell.

Ashiok - Has been okay the last two tournaments I ran it. Haven't disliked it but I also need more testing.

No Jace, the Mind Sculptor. The last few tournaments I went to, he just felt to slow. When it did land, it netted me a Brainstorm and that was about it. Just not worth it and haven't been missing it.

Dreadbore - The reason for the Dreadbore was to deal with Planeswalkers. To many time they would stick a Liliana or a Jace and you have no threats to get it off the board. The Sorcery speed makes me a little sad(can't deal with Mutavault or Mishra's Factory)but it has been a big help in some of the real bad match ups.

Running No Basic Lands - My reason for this was the fact that most of the cards in this deck need a specific color source, so being stuck on a basic land never feels good. I've ran basics before but they always feel bad to me so I cut them for the Badlands.

Badlands - Has been okay so for. Not the best land in the deck(far from it)but it rarely gets hit by a Wasteland so you normally have R/B most of the time. Normally only search it out when I already have a Sea and Volcanic already.

[JosephK]

Hi guys,

I'm surprised noone mentionned this : http://mtgkmc.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-425.html
8th place, featuring 4 Bedlam Reveler. I like the Daretti + Dack/Strix Interaction. Interesting list.

[NegatorITA]

Little activities it seems?
Yet the deck still seems quite powerful.
Found a Build online, totally different, here is the latest link
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/535649#paper

And the build before ha decay and deluge
Here
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/516715#paper



Gave this deck a try in November, when I first saw it, deck felt good, but mana base felt a bit off for running so many (I should mention I run terminate and still would over murderous cut)

General thoughts?
My biggest fear is to drop decay totally vs miracle in the second list, even if I guess the swan song are there for that, also, opposite tnn may be hard to deal with without any deluge at all

[itrytostorm]

Little activities it seems?
Yet the deck still seems quite powerful.
Found a Build online, totally different, here is the latest link
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/535649#paper

And the build before ha decay and deluge
Here
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/516715#paper



Gave this deck a try in November, when I first saw it, deck felt good, but mana base felt a bit off for running so many (I should mention I run terminate and still would over murderous cut)

General thoughts?
My biggest fear is to drop decay totally vs miracle in the second list, even if I guess the swan song are there for that, also, opposite tnn may be hard to deal with without any deluge at all

I'm thinking about a version with Vial Smasher.

4x Deathrite
4x Baleful
3x Bedlam Reveler
2x Vial Smasher
2x Snapcaster

4x Ponder
2x Toxic Deluge

1x Dack Fayden
1x Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1x JTMS

4x Brainstorm
4x FoW
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Kolaghan's Command
1x Spell Snare
1x Murderous Cut
1x Terminate

4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Scalding Tarn
3x Volcanic Island
2x Underground Sea
2x Badlands
1x Island
1x Swamp

3x Blood Moon
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Surgical
2x Pyroblast
2x Flusterstorm
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyrokinesis

[HSCK]

Lordofthepit 5-0'ed with a variant of GerryT's invi deck here (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2016-12-31)

[NegatorITA]

Lordofthepit 5-0'ed with a variant of GerryT's invi deck here (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2016-12-31)

that's tomas'mar Ovino X winning list (actually, the updated one he played at mkm series one month ago)

original for reference here
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21382&iddeck=163887

played this deck for a while, good, but I don't like running two goyf only, at times it loses "punch" when you have on board only strix...
also, I question the effectivness of no sweeper (lost to a couple of aggro like soldier stompy due to that) and some friends wondered why a lonlye jace.

Online recently a differest list made 5-0, here is, which I could try out
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/534696#online

more daze/waste/goyf basically

Also, it should be noted these are more looking like midrange/control than pure control build but whatever

[HSCK]

O0o0o, thanks for the correction and info. There was another deck today (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-01-03)that looked interesting with a huge host of countermagic.

[H]

So again, no results to really say yet, but I'll be trying it.

4 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Grim Lavamancer
10

2 Jace, TMS
1 Keranos, Gott dur Sturms
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
4

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Terminate
2 Fire/Ice
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Fire Covenant
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Painful Truths
25

3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Riptide Laboratory
20

2 Flusterstorm
2 Null Rod
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Sudden Demise
2 Pithing Needle
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Blood Moon
1 Slaughter Games
15

I still have a maindeck slot available. Might cut a Ponder for two Thoughtseize/interaction.

Foreseeable problems include 43 Lands.deck, and dealing with a Marit Lage. I don't have time this second to reason the list with choices, but I will later today.

-Matt

Finally got a chance to try the list at FNM, adding in a Diabolic Edict to the main, and playing Dack Fayden over Ashiok. Also went to 3 Strix, 3 TNN, 2 Tombstalker and 1 Lavamancer as my creatures (play less into Fatal Push).

I went 2-1-1, but games felt very winnable.

I drew versus a BUG Midrange deck. Both games were very grindy and both games were very back and forth. I won game 1 despite a brutal Hymn exchange but I manage to win off a Ponder, into a Snapcaster on K.Command and getting back a TNN. Game 2 he draws multiple 'Goyf and TNN and I try to race, but can't. Just not time for a real 3rd game.

I won versus a White Stax deck. It's a weird homebrew and games are usually winnable versus it as long as you are selective on your countermagic use. Game 1 takes forever, but I win off random TNN beats and Bolts, plus Terminate on his Wurmcoil Engine to deny the lifegain (and Force to counter his Helm+RiP). Second game he resolves RiP and so has to burn a Council's Judgement on my Null Rod, so I Jace him. Takes a while, but I win even though he has Top (like I said, it's a brew).

I lost versus Dega Tokens. Game 1 I get ran over by Cabal Therapy and double Mentor. Game 2 I do my thing, plenty of removal, True-Name and Jace. Game 3 I mull 7 (no lands), 6 (no lands), keep 5 and draw 4 Brainstorms over the game, yet despite shuffling away 6 lands, I can't stop drawing them for any removal and lose.

I won versus Br Reainimator. New kid, borrowing the deck. He kept some OK hands, but I had answers every time.

Deck is decent. I think it could be tuned a bit more, but the 2 Tombstalkers where great (except when you opponent plays 4 maindeck RiP, :laugh:). Deck seems pretty good if you are seeing lots of Fatal Push/other spot removal kind of decks. Also, I love Counterspell, it was gas all night.

[nimkee]

Hey guys, I'm on vacation right now but I was actually planning to pen a guest post on Hipsters of the Coast on this deck when I get back, sometime next week (edit: I see that the link is still in my sig, but I am no longer a regular contributor because "adulting" got too hard and serious to maintain that commitment lol). Just to answer a few initial questions, the EE-Ruins engine might seem a little clunky, but I like having some spicy one-ofs because you see a ton of cards if Dack ever gets going. An earlier iteration of the list had Intuition in the 75 (which I may yet go back to) so you could do things like bin your p.fires or set up goofy packages where you always get what you want (e.g. ruins, crucible/loam, EE or any sb artifact you want; snappy, true-name, unearth). The matchups I faced en route to the 5-0 were: White Eldrazi, UR Delver, Elves, Miracles, and Shardless.

Lastly, I like the inclusion of K-command, suggested above, and may need to give that a try.
Hi there! Is there a link you could share?

Sent from my SM-G935S using Tapatalk

[maharis]

Lost every die roll tonight and went 2-2 with grixis thing in the ice control. 2-1 D&T, 2-1 BUG, 1-2 Grixis Delver (stifle), 1-2 deathblade. 2-6 in games on the draw, which i think can turn around with some luck.

Best sequence of the night was against D&T. He had an empty hand. a vial on 3, and had just vialed in a flickerwisp, only other creature was a revoker. On my turn I did this:

1) Cast thing in the ice
2) Bolted his revoker
3) Ponder
4) Reanimate revoker, name aether vial
5) Cabal Therapy. Thing flips and goes to bounce everything, but Revoker is a horror so I get to keep it. His flickerwisp goes back to hand then Therapy goes to resolve. He can't vial it back in because of his own revoker. I name flickerwisp and 9 him to death over a couple turns.

Against every other deck, though, I boarded out two Things. Makes me think I should probably just have two in the deck. Board was -4 Force, -2 Thing, -2 Thoughtseize, +2 Forked Bolt, +2 Jace, +2 Pyroblast, +1 Clique, +1 Edict. Against deathblade I also cut Unearth for Null Rod. So maybe I just play 2 cliques main and an 18th land.

4 Baleful Strix
4 Thing in the Ice
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Thoughtseize
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Unearth
1 Reanimate

4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Swamp

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Forked Bolt
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Null Rod
1 Hydroblast
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Vendilion Clique

[Agrippa91]

Currently brewing on a Grixis list that plays more down-to-the-ground tempo than the usual control lists. Reason being that 1-for-1 removal right now seems to get played a lot, so I have creatures that one the one side have to be answered and on the other side get 2-for-1 effects (outside of DRS who is just good).

16 creatures:
4 drs
4 pyromancer
4 strix
2 clique
2 tombstalker

24 spells:
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 probe
4 bolt
4 therapy
4 force of will

20 lands:
4 wasteland
4 polluted delta
4 scalding tarn
2 u-sea
2 badlands
1 volcanic
1 tropical
1 island
1 swamp

sideboard:
2 pithing needle
2 surgical
2 pyroblast
2 flusterstorm
2 ancient grudge
2 diabolic edict
2 izzet staticaster
1 repeal (not sure, I just don't really need this sideboard slot, maybe a hydroblast or blood moon. Repeal is there for now against fast Marit Lage decks)

Notable with this list:

1. There's no snapcasters. I have tried them and found them to be too durdly, if I wanted to go full 20 turns control I'd play czech pile. I wanted my creatures to be must-answer-threats for aggro decks not expensive spells in disguise.

2. No K-command: It just is surprisingly bad without snapcasters. My plan g1 vs elrazi is clogging the ground with creatures and fly over them, I found ancient grudge way better postsideboard vs. eldrazi as well as D&T.

3. There's no Jaces. I play 4 wastelands and a rather aggressive deck. Sure Jace is a great topdeck and we have tons of ways to protect him, but when playing the deck I found that it's just too expensive to be coherent with the deck that wants to stay low to the ground similar to delver and wasteland to keep everyone on 2-3 lands as long as possible.

4. Only 4 removal spells. This is not a lot. On the other side Strix blocks a lot of creatures while DRS keeps other DRS in check. Card advantage ensures this deck stays ahead on cards so that even if I don't draw removal I can at least threaten to race them.

5. Wastelands and basics. This deck plays just enough basics to make Blood Moon, Path, Veteran Explorer and Ghost Quarter bad against you. You don't need more imo since your mana is rather tight.

6. Not a single non-fow counterspell preboard. I see this deck similar to BUG Hymn Delver as a tap-out deck. Even Clique taps out on their turn if you play it on their upkeep.

7. Deathrite Shaman. I find the upside vs. gy-decks to be too high to not play this card. Not only is this deck weak to P-Fire, a single tropical is enough to give reanimator, dredge and burn a serious headache while also being great against storm and lands. Since I'd propably have to play 18 (nonwasteland-) lands without these guys I chose to rather play 16 with them.

Why I play the deck: It plays a tempo-strategy similar to BUG (Hymn) Delver: It doesn't win by winning quickly, but by punching through an early advantage quickly similar to Hymn to Tourach. Other than Hymn Bug though it's good against combo g1 and doesn't lose to edict effects which have become quite popular.
Therapy is great with the bodies from Elemental Tokens, Strixes and the looks from Clique.
The real beater of this deck is Tombstalker: Non-STP decks can really only beat this card via Toxic Deluge (but we pressure their life total quite quickly) or Jace (pretty bad against a bunch of free creatures). STP-decks on the other hand nowadays plays stoneforge which is horrendous against the 4-therapy 2-clique decks with 2 grudges in the sb. You see, it's win-win.


So yeah, just wanted to bring this out there because every Grixis deck I see seems to think it has to start with 4 snapcasters 2 k-commands 2 jaces just because that's what Czech Pile plays.

[wcm8]

Here's the Grixis list I'm working on:

// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Creature
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Vendilion Clique

// 20 Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Daze
2 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell

// 20 Land
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Wasteland
1 Tropical Island
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Island
2 Bloodstained Mire

// 3 Planeswalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

// 5 Sorcery
2 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Painful Truths


// 15 Sideboard
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Baleful Strix
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Hydroblast

Notes on the main 60: the creature configuration could be played around with a bit, but it's been fine in testing. I like the disruption mixture, so for now I wouldn't change the spells. The Badlands was previously a 3rd Volcanic Island; I'm not sure if it really matters. Kolaghan's Command is absurd against fair decks, and not too shabby elsewhere.

Sideboard cards to consider: a 2nd Blood Moon or other non-basic hate would be good if you expect to run into Lands. If you expect more DnT, consider running a Dread of Night or Kozilek's Return. I haven't missed Abrupt Decay so far. I tested Keranos as a pet card, and actually he's pretty busted against matchups where you end in Draw-Go topdeck mode.

I think a deck very similar to this will make its way into Tier 1 as the meta begins to settle down more.

[FZA]

Here's the Grixis list I'm working on:

// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Creature
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Vendilion Clique

// 20 Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Daze
2 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell

// 20 Land
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Wasteland
1 Tropical Island
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Island
2 Bloodstained Mire

// 3 Planeswalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

// 5 Sorcery
2 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Painful Truths


// 15 Sideboard
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Baleful Strix
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Hydroblast

Notes on the main 60: the creature configuration could be played around with a bit, but it's been fine in testing. I like the disruption mixture, so for now I wouldn't change the spells. The Badlands was previously a 3rd Volcanic Island; I'm not sure if it really matters. Kolaghan's Command is absurd against fair decks, and not too shabby elsewhere.

Sideboard cards to consider: a 2nd Blood Moon or other non-basic hate would be good if you expect to run into Lands. If you expect more DnT, consider running a Dread of Night or Kozilek's Return. I haven't missed Abrupt Decay so far. I tested Keranos as a pet card, and actually he's pretty busted against matchups where you end in Draw-Go topdeck mode.

I think a deck very similar to this will make its way into Tier 1 as the meta begins to settle down more.

I have a few comments this list, it does seem pretty sweet.

1) Daze does not seem to get along with your deck's curve. You have 10 cards that are 3 CMC+, this is a pretty hefty amount. I would personally cut the dazes and replace them with Inquisition of Kozilek, Spell Snare, or Counterspell.

2) I'm not a big fan of Tasigur in Legacy, since he randomly gets owned by Karakas. I'd just run a Gurmag in that slot.

3) You are a bit cold to opposing creatures that don't die to Bolt/Push, since you have no Strixes. I would try to squeeze a Toxic Deluge or maybe even a Diabolic Edict in.

4) Overall I would just think more about the number of each card you are running, you have a lot of 1-ofs which I think means your deck could be better tuned. Test, find what works and stick with it! :)

[Jsang]

Anyone still playing/ working on this deck?

Legacy is now the remaining format where Probe+Therapy+Pyromancer can be played as 4of each.

Lejay's two recent lists are intriguing.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/670708#paper
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/652816#paper

Is this deck still a top tier choice in current meta?

[nimkee]

Anyone still playing/ working on this deck?

Legacy is now the remaining format where Probe+Therapy+Pyromancer can be played as 4of each.

Lejay's two recent lists are intriguing.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/670708#paper
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/652816#paper

Is this deck still a top tier choice in current meta?
It just placed 11th at the legacy challenge. I played a very similar version once and it did pretty well. I ran a one of EE plus an ancient ruins for value with it and stryx

3 Dack Fayden
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Notion Thief
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Collective Brutality
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Punishing Fire
2 Badlands
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
2 Arcane Laboratory
1 Blood Moon
2 Flusterstorm
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pulse of Murasa
3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge

Sent from my SM-G935S using Tapatalk

[Jsang]

It just placed 11th at the legacy challenge. I played a very similar version once and it did pretty well. I ran a one of EE plus an ancient ruins for value with it and stryx

3 Dack Fayden
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Notion Thief
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Collective Brutality
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Punishing Fire
2 Badlands
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
2 Arcane Laboratory
1 Blood Moon
2 Flusterstorm
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pulse of Murasa
3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge



Thanks for the response. It seems the trend is moving away from 'Grixis Pyromancer', a more tempo approach to a more grind-ish style, focusing on value.

I believe it is a meta call, pyromancer is very good in dealing with combo (& midrange). Below is my current list.

Land (17)
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Swamp
2x Underground Sea
4x Volcanic Island

Creature (8)
2x Gurmag Angler
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Young Pyromancer

Instant (15)
4x Brainstorm
2x Fatal Push
1x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt

Sorcery (16)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
4x Preordain

Artifact (2)
2x Engineered Explosives

Planeswalker (2)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard (15)
2x Blood Moon
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Kolaghan's Command
2x Pyroblast
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
2x Arc Trail
1x Darkblast

[nimkee]

The deck is called grixis thieves...it makes me sad when there are no actual thieves in the deck. Is grixis thieves and grixis pyromaster control considered the same thing?

Thanks for the response. It seems the trend is moving away from 'Grixis Pyromancer', a more tempo approach to a more grind-ish style, focusing on value.

I believe it is a meta call, pyromancer is very good in dealing with combo (& midrange). Below is my current list.

Land (17)
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Swamp
2x Underground Sea
4x Volcanic Island

Creature (8)
2x Gurmag Angler
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Young Pyromancer

Instant (15)
4x Brainstorm
2x Fatal Push
1x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt

Sorcery (16)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
4x Preordain

Artifact (2)
2x Engineered Explosives

Planeswalker (2)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard (15)
2x Blood Moon
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Kolaghan's Command
2x Pyroblast
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
2x Arc Trail
1x Darkblast


Sent from my SM-G935S using Tapatalk

[Jsang]

The deck is called grixis thieves...it makes me sad when there are no actual thieves in the deck. Is grixis thieves and grixis pyromaster control considered the same thing?



Sent from my SM-G935S using Tapatalk

Both of them are considered as Grixis control, even some lists in the primer does not play the singleton so whether having thieves won't substantially matter.

I observe most of lists were pyromancer version in a few pages earlier but more recent ones become more controllish; I wonder why so it change and want to test if pyromancer version, eg Lejay's lists, are still a viable choice in current field.

[JDK]

Lejay's two recent lists are intriguing.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/670708#paper
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/652816#paper

Is this deck still a top tier choice in current meta?

The greed is strong in this one. Holy smokes.

[LarsLeif]

Is there any possibility to rework this thread into a new one named Grixis Control and gather all discussions about those decklists here? The primer for this deck right now includes 4 Treasure Cruise, while newer version are performing really well at tournaments.

[Theonlyone]

Long time I didn't play a real control deck. Pierre Dagen's list built by Lejay at the Gp Vegas feels pretty sweet. The deck felt strong during my last playtest session and was really interesting to play with many choices to make. I feel the deck is like old miracles, it is rewarding the more you play it!
The list fyi :

1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Gurmag Angler
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Island
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Polluted Delta
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Thoughtseize
2 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
4 Young Pyromancer

2 Baleful Strix
2 Blood Moon
2 Counterspell
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Painful Truths
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge

[Jsang]

LSV has streamed with an older version of Lejay's Grixis too. https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-lsv-legacy-bedlam-pyro/

The GP Grixis looks good, the only 1 thing I feel uncomfortable with is playing 4 Gurmag Angler. I recognise the grave fill-up very fast, but wouldn't 4 be too chunky? I start testing with playing a snapcaster mage in the slot of the 4th Angler.

[sheik80]

I feel the same about the four Gurmags, when i first tried the list I felt really unconfortable about them. I tried yesterday for the first time the version with 4 Deathrites and a single Trop, went 4-1 in a League beating Maverick, BR Reanimator, Death&Taxes and Miracles, losing to 4 color Leovold with multiple atrocious mistakes by me (i'm still pretty new to the deck, used to play Miracles since 2015). List felt great, the Deathrites really adds a lot to the deck. And here comes my question, sorry if you already discussed this, as I said i'm still pretty new to the deck, i played 5 or 6 Leagues with the GP version and just this one with the Deathrites: why most of the lists i see play without them? It's not a rhetorical question, i'm really trying to understand the pro and cons of the two lists, the one with Deathrites and the one with a smoother manabase/4 Gurmags. :)

I'm still tuning my sideboard, i LOVED the Null Rods, they basically won me all my D&T MUs and stealed a couple games against Storm. I'm playing Staticaster AND 2 Deluges because i just don't want to lose to any creature-based deck (Elves, D&T), but playing all 3 is probably overkill. Moving forwand i'll probably cut one of the Deluges for... what? Maybe another Thoughtseize, but i'm still no really sure of what the decks really need in SB games, i probably need to play another 50/60 games to figure it out.

List:

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Thoughtseize
3 Flusterstorm
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Null Rod
3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Toxic Deluge

[klaus]

I've been testing and tweaking this baby recently, and am quite happy with the results:

4 DRS
4 Delver
3 Strix
2 TNN
2 Clique
1 Angler
1 Tombstalker

4 BS
4 FoW
4 Bolt
2 Pierce
1 Command

4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize

4 Delta
4 Tarn
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
1 Tropical Island

SB
3 Firespout (!)
2 Edict
2 Flusterstorm
2 Hydroblast
2 Pyroblast
2 S.Extraction
1 EE
1 Needle

Let me know what you think!

[Whitefaces]

And here comes my question, sorry if you already discussed this, as I said i'm still pretty new to the deck, i played 5 or 6 Leagues with the GP version and just this one with the Deathrites: why most of the lists i see play without them? It's not a rhetorical question, i'm really trying to understand the pro and cons of the two lists, the one with Deathrites and the one with a smoother manabase/4 Gurmags. :)

This might help answer your question - http://www.hareruyamtg.com/article/en/category/detail/136

[Patrunkenphat7]

This thread needs a serious update. The original concept was a cool fringe brew in an entirely different meta. Now we are seeing Grixis "Control" variants (often plays more like a midrange deck) place highly, and the archetype is solidly tier 2. The concept of "Thieves" no longer exists in the mainstream. Just putting this out there because it would be cool to do an update and get more traction on the discussion here. Dropping my list since I'm posting:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Baleful Strix
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
1 Dismember
2 Kolaghan’s Command
4 Force of Will

1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire

SB
3 Blood Moon
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Duress
2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
1 Darkblast
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Ancient Grudge

[Manipulato]

This thread needs a serious update. The original concept was a cool fringe brew in an entirely different meta. Now we are seeing Grixis "Control" variants (often plays more like a midrange deck) place highly, and the archetype is solidly tier 2. The concept of "Thieves" no longer exists in the mainstream. Just putting this out there because it would be cool to do an update and get more traction on the discussion here. Dropping my list since I'm posting:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Baleful Strix
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
1 Dismember
2 Kolaghan’s Command
4 Force of Will

1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire

SB
3 Blood Moon
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Duress
2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
1 Darkblast
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Ancient Grudge

Totally agree on that! I'm shocked there is no right thread for a Grixis Control/Midrange deck, especially after Counterbalance is dead...
I'm planning on running the deck because it looks super sweet & is quite well positioned atm.

This is the list I'm planing to play:

4*Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4*Snapcaster Mage
2*True-Name Nemesis

4*Brainstorm
4*Ponder

4*Force of Will
2*Counterspell
2*Thoughtseize

3*Fatal Push
2*Lightning Bolt
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Kolaghans Command

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3*Underground Sea
2*Volcanic Island
1*Tropical Island
1*Badlands
4*Polluted Delta
4*Scalding Tarn
2*Bloodstained Mire
2*Island
1*Swamp


SIDEBOARD
3*Surgical Extraction
2*Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
2*Vendilion Clique
2*Toxic Deluge
2*Blood Moon
1 Thoughtseize
1*Engineered Explosives

FoW Count 26

Its quite 4c Czech pile just with a more solid manabase and Blood Moon in the SB. It replaces 2 Leovold with 2 TNN and 2 AD with a 3rd Push + 1 Explosives...Not sure if I should cut 1 Strix 1 SCM for 2 Angler, would give the deck a bit more punch.
Nothing is set in stone and I have to work on the SB for sure.

[JosephK]

If you need another thread, you can create a grixis midrange one.This one ist drs free, for the greater good.

[Patrunkenphat7]

If you need another thread, you can create a grixis midrange one.This one ist drs free, for the greater good.

It's not clear to me that a requirement of this thread is to be DRS-free because the OP is outdated, and the deck name of "Thieves" is based on a card in the deck that essentially no longer sees play. It would be great if we had a DRS-free Grixis Control thread and a separate DRS Grixis Midrange thread though.

[JosephK]

It would be great if we had a DRS-free Grixis Control thread and a separate DRS Grixis Midrange thread though.

Absolutely ! Historically, Most lists discussed here were drs free. It is the thread that was used for grixis Control during treasure Cruise and Dig Through time eras.
I am aware that drs lists are more played now. I wouldn t ne against a Common thread if the primer is true to the history of the Deck, personnally.

[Fra_44]

Does some thread for Grixis Pyromancer midrange/control, that top16-ed GP Vegas in the hands of Pierre Dagen and put up some results on MTGO, exist?

I'm talking about this kind of deck: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/696182#online

[pinkfrosting]

Does some thread for Grixis Pyromancer midrange/control, that top16-ed GP Vegas in the hands of Pierre Dagen and put up some results on MTGO, exist?

I'm talking about this kind of deck: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/696182#online

That list took first in last Sunday's challenge.

I'm also surprised at the lack of discussion for this deck. Someone should write a primer. I've been grinding it on mtgo but I only have about 7 matches with it so I'm definitely still learning. You get to play the most broken combo in legacy though (git probe + therapy), it feels extremely powerful.

[NegatorITA]

Unsure if people know it, but here grixis control is played a lot

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=24009
Last league of the season in Milan saw three in top8, winner is the new deathrite-less list, while the other two are the build I play too, basically chez-pile less versions.

I like the deck a lot, still debating if angler or Tnn should be the better beater, I guess it comes down to the metà tuoi would expect to meet.
Another point is the number of discard maindeck/side:
Tipically the deck runs 4 between main and side, here they run only three maindeck and split between TS and IoK, personally I've been running the deck with Though seize only, but I recognize the life loss matters, also the numbers: two seize seems not enough at times, but thrree felt too much for me maindeck... Yet sideboard is indeed crowded.

ATM I run:

4 deathrite
4 strict
3 snapcaster
2 gurmag angler
1 vendilion clique

4 FoW
2 counterspell
2 TS

2 Jace, TMS

3 fatal push
2 lightning bolt
2 kolaghan's command
1 toxic deluge

4 ponder
4 bs

20 lands

Side
2 flusterstorm
2 REB
1 thoughtseize
1 vendilion clique
2 diabolic edict
2 engineered explosives
1 toxic deluge
2 surgical extraction
2 blood moon

Still unsure about how much GY hate is enough and if I really want the vendilion maindeck, storm at times is still painful to deal with when they goes off after a duress AND a cabal theraphy...

[Fra_44]

That list took first in last Sunday's challenge.

I'm also surprised at the lack of discussion for this deck. Someone should write a primer. I've been grinding it on mtgo but I only have about 7 matches with it so I'm definitely still learning. You get to play the most broken combo in legacy though (git probe + therapy), it feels extremely powerful.

Exactly, I started playing it myself and it feels really great. I crushed basically any deck I faced except for New Miracles, and I wrote here because I was in fact looking for help in that match up. Did you face it? My problems were that we have many more dead cards than them. Discard spells are bad when your opponent has always a full grip of 7 thanks to Predict and Snapcaster Mage, they have Terminus to answer Peezy and we have nothing to answer Mentor. They have many more incidental +1 than we do.. I don't know it felt like an uphill battle to me, but Pierre Dagen wrote in his article he felt favored.. I really don't know!

[Drzed]

Exactly my feeling. This deck can do so many powerful things. It creates huge holes and can capitalize on them really fast. It's pretty difficult to pilot but it's a blast to play. The French list is the superior one imho as it is more focused and consistent than the drs or the other midrange builds.

Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk

[Fra_44]

Ok guys, I'm gonna try this plan going forward against New Miracles. Of course I'm talking about the French version.
- 4 anglers
- 2 bolt
+ 2 pyroblast
+ 3 counterspell (I added one cutting Strixes)
+ 1 painful truths

Bolt is very bad but at least frees our pyroblasts a bit answering Jace. Pyroblast is super important to stop value countering Snapcaster Mage. Angler is super bad, it gets answered by literally anything in their deck.

I also believe the French version is vastly superior to any other version. DRS is super bad without Wasteland, Strix is super clunky and too narrow, useless against combo and Miracles. Fatal Push is committing too much against Delver, will be a dead card vs combo and Miracles. The French list with its proactive game plan has a decent match up against any deck. Stix and Push are really not needed to beat Delver decks when you can clog the board with Angler and Peezy or even turn the corner with them and win a race

[beta]

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16224&f=LE

3 grixis control lists in the top 8 of a 70 man event in Japan. All of them eschewed deathrate shaman for a more streamlined version.

Has anyone played this list compared to the current czech pile list running around? As a guy who just got my grixis cards recently, would like to know the difference between grixis control and czech pile, strategy wise and how grixis control is positioned in the current metagame.

Not a lot of spotlight on this deck :(

[deaded]

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16224&f=LE

3 grixis control lists in the top 8 of a 70 man event in Japan. All of them eschewed deathrate shaman for a more streamlined version.

Has anyone played this list compared to the current czech pile list running around? As a guy who just got my grixis cards recently, would like to know the difference between grixis control and czech pile, strategy wise and how grixis control is positioned in the current metagame.

Not a lot of spotlight on this deck :(

Here's an excerpt from the Czech Pile primer:




Why should I play Czech Pile?
Czech Pile is the ultimate value deck. If you enjoy out-grinding your opponent and getting 2-for-1’s, this is your deck. It is slow, methodical, and has answers for almost every situation. Players of the old Shardless BUG archetype will enjoy this playstyle, but Czech Pile is far less clunky and has stronger sideboard options.

Someone considering Czech Pile might also be considering one of the various other control decks in Legacy. The most common being Grixis Control, BUG Control (Reid Duke style), Shardless BUG, Stoneblade, and Miracles. Below is a comparison with each of these decks.

Grixis Control – Grixis Control is the most similar to Czech Pile. It runs Kolaghan’s Command, Jace, and Snapcaster Mage, and a very similar removal suite. It eschews green so no Leovold, Abrupt Decay, and usually no DRS. It also typically cuts down on Baleful Strixes, though recent builds have been seen to include them. Instead it incorporates more proactive threats like Gurmag Angler, Young Pyromancer and True-Name Nemesis. This allows the deck to switch gears between aggro and control more easily, making it more flexible and better at racing. It also provides sturdier threats vs. Punishing Fire decks. Dropping green means it has a slightly stronger manabase, but is offset by the lack of DRS, which helps our mana considerably. The disadvantage is that it has 0 maindeck answers to enchantments, fewer answers to artifacts and other nonland threats. Leovold is also a very strong hatebear against a range of strategies. In addition to helping our manabase, DRS also provides MD graveyard hate, and some lifegain for sustain. In fact, many of the more recent Grixis Control lists are starting to look more and more like Czech Pile, replacing Leovold with Gurmag Angler-here the boundaries really begin to blur.


Definitely agree with the ability of Grixis Control to beat down quicker than Czech Pile. Pyromancer and Angler can lay down some fast beats. A better mana base allows you to play Blood Moon in the sideboard which should help with some match ups.

[Fra_44]

Also, Grixis control has a way way better combo match up.

[Ayiluss]

Also, Grixis control has a way way better combo match up.
I wouldn't say Grixis control has so much better combo match up, if at all.

[Fra_44]

I wouldn't say Grixis control has so much better combo match up, if at all.

Lol, have you even played the deck?? Are we talking about the deck which has 4 Probes 4 Cabal Therapies 4 Peezy 2 Thoughtseize/Inquisition and 4 Force of Wills vs the deck which has 4 Forces some Leovolds and nothing else? Come on...!

[Ayiluss]

Lol, have you even played the deck?? Are we talking about the deck which has 4 Probes 4 Cabal Therapies 4 Peezy 2 Thoughtseize/Inquisition and 4 Force of Wills vs the deck which has 4 Forces some Leovolds and nothing else? Come on...!

Version with Therapies and probes does have a bit better combo much up indeed but lists not playing these two cards don't. Czech pile doesn't have bad combo matchup as well; if you think it does you don't know what are you talking about. The only exception is Storm which is "only" about even or slightly unfavoured for Czech pile because it has slow clock and Elves which isn't good for Grixis Control either. Furthermore Czech pile plays more than just 2 Thoughtseize, Leovold and 4 Force of Wills to fight combo decks.

[geeklazer]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

So I'm fortunate enough to live in an area where paper legacy fires 4 times a week minimum, so I've been experimenting with various grixis control lists. The meta is pretty diverse where i am, and very competitive. with that being said, I find myself having issues sideboarding with grixis control in almost every game that isn't combo. I normally play sneak and show, elves, grixis delver, bug delver, UWx control, and red stompy. The grixis control deck is so streamlined and intricate, its hard to take cards out. I'm having issues sideboarding against fair matchups, IE delver, stoneblade, and other control decks.

Does anyone have any success running this deck, and how does the deck shift when it comes to fair matches? Is it correct to go down on therapies? It seems bad when that is the main engine.


The list that I'm currently running is Dagen's list, except no baby jace.

4 Gurmag Angler
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Swamp
2 Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
Sideboard
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Baleful Strix
2 Blood Moon
2 Counterspell
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Painful Truths
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge


After playing this deck for a couple weeks now, I must admit it's much more difficult to pilot properly than it looks on paper. It would be nice to get a thoughtful primer in addition to the tournament report we have from vegas.

[Fra_44]

I've gone through a few leagues with the deck and can confirm it's way less easy than it seems. What I learnt is that the deck must be played more tempo oriented than most control decks because it seems to me that we haven't a proper source of inevitability. How we win games is disrupting the opponent's hand in the first turns and then place an Angler or going crazy with a Peezy.
That happens because most decks have the inevitability over us: I played Cartesian on Aluren and I figured my best plan was being the beatdown with Anglers and Peezy because I wouldn't have been able to overcome the value his deck generates.

Czech Pile has a good combo mu. I'm done.

[Fra_44]

SIN top8ed the Legacy Challenge yesterday with Grixis Control "therapy list". Notable changes are a single TNN maindeck, and in the sideboard, where he has 1 more Blood Moon, 1 Echoing Truth and 1 Notion Thief instead of 2 Stixes and a Painful Truths. Would be interesting if he would like to leave a feedback, especially on how Echoing Truth and Notion Thief worked for him.
Another one was in the top32, I can't remember the nick nor the position.

Great job guys!

[EJexpresss]

Does anyone have any success running this deck, and how does the deck shift when it comes to fair matches? Is it correct to go down on therapies? It seems bad when that is the main engine.


I've been running this deck at my locals to some success (4-0 last night, many 3-1s). Basically Dagen's, but with -1 Angler, -2 Preordain, +3 Snapcaster, which does help grind better.

6 discard is overkill against fair decks, IMO. Post-board, I usually run 0-4, depending on whether I think I need to "get them" with therapy in order to win. In matchups where you have inevitability (i.e. Delver), I like cutting discard entirely -- you want your deck to be all cantrips, threats, and removal b/c you win by watching your opponent topdeck blanks (daze, stifle, their own therapies, etc.) while you draw 100% gas. For fair matchups where you don't have inevitability (BUG TNN, Stoneforge decks, Maverick), I like keeping in some amount (2-4), depending on how well you feel you can answer their threats with the rest of your deck and how many SB cards you have.

So basically,
1) Can you win the matchup trading 1-for-1?
2) Can you handle their threats with the other cards in your deck?
3) Do you expect the game to go long?
4) Do you have SB cards that help you do this?
Therapy is rarely "bad", but the more you're answering "yes" to those questions, the more discard you can shave.

[Kyuuri117]

Been messing around with a Grixis Control list inspired by the Mengucci Vial Smasher deck. I thought that he definitely went way too far in trying to maximize the smasher, and I didn't like his list, but I think smasher definitely has a place in grixis control. Turns your reactive control spells into proactive win cons, and turning the corner and putting this clock on the opponent is so fast it's unreal. It's also a ton of fun, which I know isn't super important to a lot of spikes, but I love having a deck that's both great AND fun, so i'm definitely enjoying this. Here's the list:

Lands: 20

1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta

Creatures: 12

4 Baleful Strix
4 Vial Smasher the Fierce
4 Gurmag Angler

Planeswalkers: 2

2 JTMS

Noncreature Spells:

1 Toxic Deluge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Inquisition of Koz
1 Thoughtseize
2 Night's Whisper
2 Kologhan's Command
3 Fatal Push
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

Sideboard

2 Pyroblast
2 Counterspell
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Blood Moon
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Extripate
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm

Some thoughts so far:

The Thirst for Knowledge is interesting. It's not great in the opening hand, and it's not great in a super grind where both you and your opponent have nothing in hand. But in the mid game, if you've managed to get some minor card advantage rolling, casting it really cements your lead. So yes, it's a little win more. But it does have the advantage of triggering smasher on your opponents turn, and it does put 2-3 cards into the graveyard for the gurmag anglers which is great. Definitely a flex slot though, and could be replaced.

Surprisingly, I haven't been loving the JTMS's in the deck. He's obviously good, but he feels like the worst card in the mainboard (well, second worst, Thirst is prob the worst). Might trim down to 1 copy.

I think the deck really wants a badlands in the list, and I sometimes think the deck wants a 21st land, but I don't know what land/spell i'd cut for it. Maybe the Thirst, maybe a JTMS, not sure. Were I to trim a JTMS, then I wouldn't want the second basic Island, and could run a badlands there, and that gives a second free slot. Might try out Kess in that spot, but with the 4 gurmags, not sure if she's gonna be good enough. Hell, could run a Notion Thief :)

Snapcasters mages and DRS - don't miss em. At all. Deck can't support snapcaster mages and 4 gurmag's, and I think casting gurmag anglers is one of the best things you can be doing in legacy right now. And while DRS would be nice, definitely don't think he's a necessity, or fits the gameplan here.

As far as running 4 vial smashers, obviously running 4 of a legendary permanent can be awkward. But even if you can't get rid of one with a brainstorm, it's not going to be completely dead in hand as you can still get in three damage by casting it. Not the best, but the card is good enough that I think you definitely want 4.

Also want to find a spot in the board for a Pyrokinesis as I think i'm running enough red spells to support one, and it's fantastic vs. elves, goblins, dnt, delver in decks that can support it. Would probably take Marsh Casualties slot.

Anyway, would definitely love some criticism/suggestions!

[keys]

IDK... Vial Smasher is cool, but for 3 mana TNN just seems like the better investment to me.

I'm currently testing out Kess, Dissident Mage in Dagen's list. I really like the 3/4 flying body. She's difficult to remove without Swords to Plowshares or revolted Push, and blocks Delvers all day long.

4 Pyromancer
2 Gurmag
2 TNN
2 Kess

The rest of the list is pretty standard with 4 Probe/Therapy and more value cards.

[meffeo]

Mengucci featured the best combo deck in the format (https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-mengucci-legacy-grixis-pyro-2/). It looks like he decided to push Elemental tokens to the top -> 4 Preordain and therefore only 1 copy of JTMS.

[geeklazer]

I've been running this deck at my locals to some success (4-0 last night, many 3-1s). Basically Dagen's, but with -1 Angler, -2 Preordain, +3 Snapcaster, which does help grind better.

6 discard is overkill against fair decks, IMO. Post-board, I usually run 0-4, depending on whether I think I need to "get them" with therapy in order to win. In matchups where you have inevitability (i.e. Delver), I like cutting discard entirely -- you want your deck to be all cantrips, threats, and removal b/c you win by watching your opponent topdeck blanks (daze, stifle, their own therapies, etc.) while you draw 100% gas. For fair matchups where you don't have inevitability (BUG TNN, Stoneforge decks, Maverick), I like keeping in some amount (2-4), depending on how well you feel you can answer their threats with the rest of your deck and how many SB cards you have.

So basically,
1) Can you win the matchup trading 1-for-1?
2) Can you handle their threats with the other cards in your deck?
3) Do you expect the game to go long?
4) Do you have SB cards that help you do this?
Therapy is rarely "bad", but the more you're answering "yes" to those questions, the more discard you can shave.



This is very helpful. I've gotten frustrated with the deck and have been jamming dark bant deathblade and grixis delver instead, but today I'm putting the list back together for a important legacy event tonight. Watching that mengucci video from yesterday was inspiring.

[geeklazer]

I played the mengucci list at the local event tonight, 4 rounds cut to top 4, and then the top 4 split.

Round 1 UB reanimator 2-0

My first round was against UB re-animator which went very well. Game 1, I tore apart his hand with cabal therapy and thoughtseize followed by a gurmag while he tried to play through force of wills. Gurmag finished the game quickly. Game 2 I had force, fluster, and surgical and 4 lands in my opening hand, and kept. I drew into thoughtseize, cabal therapy, and eventually found a pyromancer which i chained a bunch of cantrip into for a fast clock.

Round 2 Doomsday 2-0

My good friend was my opponent, and it went very similarly to round 1. Tons of disruption, followed by a threat. He almost won game 2, but lost to himself when he burning wished for a draw spell instead of a doomsday from the side. Sad. I always hate playing my friends in an important event, but he went 3-1 and made top 4.

Round 3 12post eldrazi 2-1

This match up was fine as long as I saw blood moon in the sideboard games. Game 1, I saw a bunch of discard and force of wills with a gurmag on the field, and he couldnt land any threats. I ended the game quickly with a gurmag, and going bolt snap bolt on his end step, untapping and swining for 7 damage, then casting another bolt from hand for exact lethal of 16. Game 2 he cast an ulamog through a blood moon since I didnt present a clock, and made a land drop every turn. Game 3 I saw blood moon again and this time had a fast clock.

Round 4 UR delver 2-1

Game 1 He went delver, delver, stormchaser, and I did not see any removal. Game 2, I sided in every piece of removal I had, and dragged the game out until I eventually had him in top deck mode and captripped my way to victory with young pyromancer. Game 3 was very close, he had me down to 8 life with an unflipped delver. All I had was 6 lands on the field and flusterstorm in hand. I drew into a preordain, that allowed me to cantrip chain into 6 elemental tokens and finally tapping out my last red source for a pyroblast targeting delver that I found with a ponder. He had no cards in hand, and I had lethal on the board. He scooped.

Overall, I had some very favorable matchups. I was also very fortunate with my draws, but I also don't think I made any glaringly obvious misplays. I used the advise from EJexpresss that was posted above, and ended up siding out 2-3 handhate spells in the delver match, which helped a lot.


Andrea Mengucci
Lands
4 x Scalding Tarn
4 x Polluted Delta
2 x Underground Sea
3 x Volcanic Island
1 x Bloodstained Mire
1 x Badlands
1 x Swamp
2 x Island
Creatures
3 x Gurmag Angler
4 x Young Pyromancer
2 x Snapcaster Mage
Spells
4 x Gitaxian Probe
1 x Inquisition of Kozilek
4 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Preordain
1 x Kolaghan's Command
4 x Force of Will
4 x Brainstorm
1 x Thoughtseize
4 x Ponder
4 x Cabal Therapy
1 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 x Fatal Push

Sideboard
2 x Pyroblast
2 x Flusterstorm
2 x Blood Moon
2 x Baleful Strix
2 x Diabolic Edict
1 x Painful Truths
1 x Kolaghan's Command
1 x Toxic Deluge
2 x Surgical Extraction

Also, I went down on a volcanic for a basic mountain, as I hate to get wasted off of a color.

[cdnza]

Has anyone in this thread played much with Miracles? I've played maybe 10-20 matches with it and it made me wonder a bit about this deck - the other cantrip/jace deck of the format. There are obvious comparisons to draw between pyro/mentor and bolt/swords and such, but I wondered if anyone had any firsthand insights. Having access to discard is probably the biggest difference, for instance, but I'm unsure how big a difference that makes from matchup to matchup. Anyone in here played both decks?

[Fra_44]

Has anyone in this thread played much with Miracles? I've played maybe 10-20 matches with it and it made me wonder a bit about this deck - the other cantrip/jace deck of the format. There are obvious comparisons to draw between pyro/mentor and bolt/swords and such, but I wondered if anyone had any firsthand insights. Having access to discard is probably the biggest difference, for instance, but I'm unsure how big a difference that makes from matchup to matchup. Anyone in here played both decks?

Hey!
I'm friend with Claudio Bonanni and I had the chance to play some games against him running his Mentor Daze Miracle list. I felt pretty much unfavored for many reasons: 1. Discard spells are not so great in the match up, due to the huge amount of cantrips and card advantage he has. 2. Our deck is built mainly around 1 for 1 spells (I was running the Dagen list as I think Snapcaster Mage is not great in this deck) while his is full of card advantage: playsets of both Snap and Predict are huge. 3. Kolaghan's command is pretty bad bc our creatures never reach the graveyard. 4 Mentor outpowers Peezy 5. Gurmag Angler is pretty bad. 6. Post sideboard Pyroblast is great, but we only have two. Snapcaster might be worthy just for the reason of having more than 2 pyroblasts available post sideboard.

Meanwhile I texted Andrea Mengucci, as I know him a little bit, and he told me he likes the matchup against Miracles, even when he was playing the original Dagen list. He says he happens to grind them out most of the time. Dagen himself in his article says he feels slightly favored.
So it might be we are doing something wrong or we just need to practice more :smile:

[mike1987]

Hey!
I'm friend with Claudio Bonanni and I had the chance to play some games against him running his Mentor Daze Miracle list. I felt pretty much unfavored for many reasons: 1. Discard spells are not so great in the match up, due to the huge amount of cantrips and card advantage he has. 2. Our deck is built mainly around 1 for 1 spells (I was running the Dagen list as I think Snapcaster Mage is not great in this deck) while his is full of card advantage: playsets of both Snap and Predict are huge. 3. Kolaghan's command is pretty bad bc our creatures never reach the graveyard. 4 Mentor outpowers Peezy 5. Gurmag Angler is pretty bad. 6. Post sideboard Pyroblast is great, but we only have two. Snapcaster might be worthy just for the reason of having more than 2 pyroblasts available post sideboard.

Meanwhile I texted Andrea Mengucci, as I know him a little bit, and he told me he likes the matchup against Miracles, even when he was playing the original Dagen list. He says he happens to grind them out most of the time. Dagen himself in his article says he feels slightly favored.
So it might be we are doing something wrong or we just need to practice more :smile:


Have you tried the Grixis lists that the japanese are running now:

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD08501W/

They are playing snapcaster mages for the mid to late game grind which i think adds an extra dimension of viability in case your pyro and angler just get plowed.

[Fra_44]

Have you tried the Grixis lists that the japanese are running now:

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD08501W/

They are playing snapcaster mages for the mid to late game grind which i think adds an extra dimension of viability in case your pyro and angler just get plowed.

I think this deck is severely weakened by cutting preordains and adding reactive cards. The principle behind the initial list is to have a few reactive cards and use cantrip to select wether you want your counterspells or your removal spells. By cutting cantrips and adding fatal pushes you'll draw removal spells vs combo more often and it's not really safe either with just 19 lands.
Also snapcaster in my opinion is only good to flashback pyroblasts, it's not worth it to waste slot to flash back cantrips or bolts.

This version you posted is strictly worse than 4C Czech Pile in my opinion, whereas Grixis Pyro just has a different gameplan so you can't really compare it to Czech Pile. This Japanese list adjusts its game plan to be more similar to Czech Pile but, in fact, worse.

[geeklazer]

Has anyone in this thread played much with Miracles? I've played maybe 10-20 matches with it and it made me wonder a bit about this deck - the other cantrip/jace deck of the format. There are obvious comparisons to draw between pyro/mentor and bolt/swords and such, but I wondered if anyone had any firsthand insights. Having access to discard is probably the biggest difference, for instance, but I'm unsure how big a difference that makes from matchup to matchup. Anyone in here played both decks?


I would tend to agree that the match feels unfavored. I'm running 2 snaps in the main (the mengucci list) and it still feels like they have crazy advantage in the match with terminus, portent, predict, and snaps. I'm not sure I have an answer on how to deal with UWx control, but I can say the times that I won I went turn 1-probe/cabal turn 2-cabal or other discard/ turn 3 angler with force back up.

[keys]

strictly worse than 4C Czech Pile in my opinion

Think that's a bit harsh. This deck is a lot more aggressive than 4C. Snapcaster doesn't always have to be used reactively when you have Bolts and cantrips in your graveyard.

Does anyone have any results testing Kess?

[Fra_44]

Back from holydays I started grinding the deck on mtgo again yesterday. 4-1ed a league where I beat RW Death&Taxes, Grixis Delver, 4C Leovold and Burn and lost a very close one against 4C Leovold again. List was very close to Dagen's. No snapcaster mages nor the new 3/4 which I don't like that much. At 4 mana I'd much rather play Jace tms most of the time.

I got the footage of the league on YouTube but unfortunately it's in Italian, might record in English next tims so I can share it here.

[polski]

Back from holydays I started grinding the deck on mtgo again yesterday. 4-1ed a league where I beat RW Death&Taxes, Grixis Delver, 4C Leovold and Burn and lost a very close one against 4C Leovold again. List was very close to Dagen's. No snapcaster mages nor the new 3/4 which I don't like that much. At 4
mana I'd much rather play Jace tms most of the time.
I got the footage of the league on YouTube but unfortunately it's in Italian, might record in English next tims so I can share it here.

Can you share your list with the changes you Will do?

[Fra_44]

Can you share your list with the changes you Will do?

Of course I can! It's like that:

4 Angler
4 Peezy

4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Probe
4 FoW
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition
1 Engineered Explosives
1 K-Command
2 Jace TMS

4 Delta
4 Tarn (I have Misties on mtgo because I can't afford Tarn but obv you want to run Tarns! :tongue: )
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Volc
2 U-Sea
1 Badlands
2 Island
1 Swamp

---

2 Pyroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Blood Moon
2 Counterspell
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Flusterstorm
1 Painful Truths
1 K-Command
1 Pyroclasm
1 Toxic Deluge

Baby Jace wasn't bad by any means but I found the bigger Jace (Tms) to be better in grindy games, where you really want him. Against fair decks baby Jace rarely sticks, but he has the upside of being less bad against combo decks.
Faerie Macabre was included over Surgical Extraction because we don't run any Snapcaster Mage and Faerie is better against Reanimator (bypasses Chancellor even OTD) and Dredge (takes away 2 dredgers instead of just 1 if he discards 2 with a Looting effect). Surgical is better against Lands and Show&Tell tho. They both have their upsides against Storm.

[VERTUK]

Think that's a bit harsh. This deck is a lot more aggressive than 4C. Snapcaster doesn't always have to be used reactively when you have Bolts and cantrips in your graveyard.

Does anyone have any results testing Kess?

I play 1x of her in a Jace TMS slot. I only played her once and she ate a pyroblast. The rest of the time i saw her with cantrips and i never felt she was useful. 4 cmc were too high in an eviroment full of wastelands. I will keep testing her but she's probably not worth it.

[maCHOOga]

I was inspired by the Vial Smasher list when I initially saw it. Since then I've built it on paper and mtgo. In the process I've tuned it a little to me liking. I've been really struggling with a few matchups. How do you beat graveyard combo decks, BR Reanimator, BU Reanimator, Dredge. I really only have counters, therapies (which aren't even great) and a pair of sideboard surgical extrctions.

Blood Moon? What the heck do you actually bring them in against? With the pending rules update, it seems awful to bring in against lands.

[FiliusIcari]

I've been playing the Vial Smasher list, and changed it by adding 3 DRS in the Portent slot because it felt like the deck only started doing anything on turn 3, which is a bit too slow. DRS probably also helps the graveyard matchup, although I haven't played it yet, and I might want to include a single trop in the list in the badlands slot to eat creatures from the graveyard.

Not sure about lands though. Beats me, and I don't have any local lands players so I don't have to worry about it haha.

[maCHOOga]

I've been playing the Vial Smasher list, and changed it by adding 3 DRS in the Portent slot because it felt like the deck only started doing anything on turn 3, which is a bit too slow. DRS probably also helps the graveyard matchup, although I haven't played it yet, and I might want to include a single trop in the list in the badlands slot to eat creatures from the graveyard.

Not sure about lands though. Beats me, and I don't have any local lands players so I don't have to worry about it haha.

After I lost my first game to portent being a bad magic card, I cut them. Miracling a Temporal Mastery isn't the same as a terminus! I turned 3 Portent into 1 Murderous Cut and 2 Jace, TMS. Both of the cards have pulled their weight, but I can definitely see a reason to play DRS. Having another lightning rod will increase the chances of vial smasher living. I've starting to question the temporal mastery(s), they are only good when you are ahead on board and basically a blank draw in an empty board. I'm going to make some updates and collect more data.

[Zllig]

How do people feel about Chart the Course in the deck? Seems like Nights Whisper is viable in this deck and chart just seems better. I might test 1 or 2, being blue and losing no life seems like great upside.

[Hrothgar]

This deck don't need Chart for now.
After two months of playtest, imho the free slot are very few and, with Pyromancer, maybe a simple cantrip like Preordain is better then Chart...anyway i don't think who we need other cantrip in add to Brainstorm, Ponder and Probe.
My two cents.

[FiliusIcari]

After I lost my first game to portent being a bad magic card, I cut them. Miracling a Temporal Mastery isn't the same as a terminus! I turned 3 Portent into 1 Murderous Cut and 2 Jace, TMS. Both of the cards have pulled their weight, but I can definitely see a reason to play DRS. Having another lightning rod will increase the chances of vial smasher living. I've starting to question the temporal mastery(s), they are only good when you are ahead on board and basically a blank draw in an empty board. I'm going to make some updates and collect more data.

I disagree about temporal mastery, honestly. Its interaction with brainstorm is pretty great, and being able to pitch it to force makes it so much better than thunderous wrath. I actually ended up cutting wrath, and switching it to bonfire. It's not as bursty(obviously) but it's very very relevant in a lot of matchups even without miracle. I also put it in the board, and have 2 strix in the main.

Basically, while I think skewing the deck too far for smasher is wrong, I also think that some card choices are just not bad at all, like temporal mastery and potentially bonfire. I'm looking to move away from strictly combo pieces(wrath) and more towards things that have incidental value outside of vial smasher. I'll post another list in a few days once i've nailed things down a bit more.

[RobNC]

Has anyone had any luck with Kess actually playing her? She did alright on camera at EE a few weeks ago, and I saw the Brainstorm Show list has her as a 1x. The 4 mana and not immediately affecting the board or doing anything (unless you have 5+ lands) makes me hesitant to pick up one or two.

[HammerAndSickled]

Has anyone had any luck with Kess actually playing her? She did alright on camera at EE a few weeks ago, and I saw the Brainstorm Show list has her as a 1x. The 4 mana and not immediately affecting the board or doing anything (unless you have 5+ lands) makes me hesitant to pick up one or two.

I'm the one who played it on camera at EE, I posted my report in the Czech Pile thread. I LOVE the card in any non-combo matchup. I've only played at weeklies since then but it's been overperforming against Delver, mirrors, Blade decks, DnT, etc.

[FiliusIcari]

Here's my current list right now. My friends had a faux intervention and finally got me to stop playing temporal mastery, which I'm still very sad about. I think the deck is in a much better place though.

Land (18)
1x Badlands
1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Swamp
2x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island

Creature (13)
2x Baleful Strix
3x Deathrite Shaman
4x Vial Smasher the Fierce
4x Young Pyromancer

Instant (16)
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
2x Kolaghan's Command
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Logic Knot

Sorcery (13)
2x Bonfire of the Damned
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder


Sideboard
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Darkblast
1x Dread of Night
2x Flusterstorm
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Kess, Dissident Mage
2x Murderous Cut
1x Pithing Needle
2x Pyroblast
1x Toxic Deluge


Here's my reasoning on some card choices:

DRS - Before I added it, the deck felt like it also just started doing things on turn 3, which is fine sometimes but often too slow. In addition, in some matchups, DRS can be a pretty decent threat all by itself or add enough to your clock to get there. I tried 4 for a while, but it just felt like having more than 1 was pretty often absolutely terrible, and that it was better to see 0 than to see 2.

Strix - Replaces itself, can sometimes get some damage in, and stalls when necessary. Perfect.

Logic Knot - Usually counterspell with the upside of 11ing people in the late game if they let you stick a vial smasher. If I ever play the deck without Vial Smasher, obviously this just becomes regular counterspell, but as for now the upside is pretty large and the downside is usually not relevant.

Bonfire of the Damned - I ended up playing this over Thunderous Wrath because even with the wombo combo of Vial Smasher plus Wrath, the game was often not over, and the card was just absolutely dead outside of that context. Instead, Bonfire is a mainboard board wipe which is relevant against a lot of the field, can still be cast from hand if you draw it and can't miracle it, and it's also still crazy when you have the Smasher, turning all of your lands past the first one into a bolt, and probably wiping any creatures they have. This is part of my ongoing effort to include cards that are good with Vial Smasher but have value outside of the ideal situation, and turn the deck back towards a control deck and away from a bad combo deck.

Kess in the sideboard - As HammerAndSickled mentioned, the card is just crazy value, and that's important against Leovold and Delver. That being said, I'm only playing her in the side because the deck already has a lot of higher cost spells, and the deck needs at least a little game against combo.

Murderous Cut in the side - Just more removal for matchups where it's relevant, our graveyard is often full, and the upside of fiveing someone and it being unconditional is worth more imo than fatal push

[DemolitionColorScheme]

I created this thread 3 years ago and I must say, it's cool to see it's still up and running!

[ThiefSlayer]

Have someone here tested search for azcanta?

People are enjoying it at miracles, as I am. I played it for 2 leagues and liked how it worked. I think it would be even nicer here, since it's problem in miracles is doing nothing for at least 1 turn in the early game when you are usually trying not to die.

I think this deck is much more suited for holding the early game and less suited for the late, comparing to miracles. I think it could be good here to get some late game advantage, as this deck is more suited to not die in the early turns. I'm thinking of giving it a try but I will be able only next week, if someone could give me some advice if it works or not I would appreciate.

[LarsLeif]

Have someone here tested search for azcanta?

People are enjoying it at miracles, as I am. I played it for 2 leagues and liked how it worked. I think it would be even nicer here, since it's problem in miracles is doing nothing for at least 1 turn in the early game when you are usually trying not to die.

I think this deck is much more suited for holding the early game and less suited for the late, comparing to miracles. I think it could be good here to get some late game advantage, as this deck is more suited to not die in the early turns. I'm thinking of giving it a try but I will be able only next week, if someone could give me some advice if it works or not I would appreciate.

I've been having a lot of fun with this deck actually!

CREATURES (7)
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 True-Name Nemesis

ENCHANTMENTS (2)
2 Search for Azcanta

SORCERIES (8)
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Ponder

INSTANTS (21)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Kolaghan’s Command
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
1 Fatal Push
1 Diabolic Edict

PLANESWALKERS (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

LANDS (20)
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire

SIDEBOARD (15)
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flusterstorm
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Forked Bolt
1 Emrakul, the Promised End

Azcanta is great is this shell :)

[Grizzly_Bear]

Would this thread be the appropriate place to discuss the deck that Triztan Polzl used to top 8 the MKM in Frankfurt? (If not, please point me in the right direction).

(For reference: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=26222&iddeck=205900, 2 preordains are missing from the list at TC decks I believe)

My queries are as follows:
While I think the maindeck looks pretty goddamn spot-on, the 3 counterspells in the SB stands out to me...
Versatile to be sure, but not exactly niched to combat any specific deck among the decks to beat. Or am I wrong?!
The way I see it, they are not particularly strong against combo compared to alternatives (flusterstorm etc), they are to clunky against aggro, and overall not on a powerlevel (1-for-1) able to beat the constant 2-for-1s from 3-4C Midrange feat. Leovold, Hymn, Kolaghan's Command, etc.

I would like to know more of the intention behind this SB design. If Mr. Polzl himself, any of his friends and/or co-designers, or any other wise man or woman would like to enlighten me, please go ahead. Specific sideboard plans against specific matchups would be even better.

Thanks!

[Lejay]

I am pretty sure they were 2 kolaghan's command and for sure he had at least one and he found them expensive. He liked abrade a lot more. He built the decklist in a hurry, his trip was improvized the day before going to mkm, so don't expect too much from his list. He faced a lot of combo decks so that helped.

[Grizzly_Bear]

Thanks Lejay,
As you seem to be quite the master of this deck as well, I'd love to hear more general thoughts from you about the deck.
Looking at this deck from just a week ago, you are rocking some counterspells as well.
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=26465&iddeck=207765
Any advice on how they are meant to be used?

Also, the single stifle... Is that there only to show the opponent every now and then, to make them scared and play around more stifles for the rest of the game?
Or is there anything in the meta right now that you really want to stifle =)

[Lejay]

I don't think this is the right place to talk about the deck but I will at least answer your questions. My reasoning behind the 3 counterspells idea is that it was doing what I want to do vs combo and control decks (stopping their big spells) with only a few slots (discard is already kinda at a max). I still like 3 a lot but I splitted with an unsunbstantiate right now with other tweaks as a concession to turbodepths which is popular online.
Stifle idea was to just have one as an appreciated situational time walk effect (temporal mastery is ok too) which is likely to be played perfectly given how you always have information about your opponent's hand. In addition to that it can do other things if window didn't come up or it came late and it will seriously mislead your opponent on what you're playing. One stifle signals stifle but also daze and wasteland, so it can bring dividends in the first and even post sb games. I currently have a bounce (crosis's charm/echoing truth) in the slot right now though.

[sikariok9]

Hello Lejay,

Where do you think it is the correct place to discuss about this decklist? My friend have been playing A LOT a pretty similar list, and he has some questions about some of your choices.
Thanks in advance

[korstructure]

Agree, I'd love to ask some questions, as well! Planning to take this as my GP deck in April.


Hello Lejay,

Where do you think it is the correct place to discuss about this decklist? My friend have been playing A LOT a pretty similar list, and he has some questions about some of your choices.
Thanks in advance

[LarsLeif]

For you Grixis-draw-go-lovers out there - I top 8:ed a local legacy tournament here in Stockholm last weekend with this list:

CREATURES (8)
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Baleful Strix
1 Keranos, God of Storms

ENCHANTMENTS (2)
2 Search for Azcanta

SORCERIES (6)
4 Ponder
2 Night’s Whisper

INSTANTS (20)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Kolaghan’s Command
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
2 Diabolic Edict

PLANESWALKERS (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

ARTIFACTS (2)
2 Engineered Explosives

LANDS (20)
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire

SIDEBOARD (15)
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Forked Bolt
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Night’s Whisper
1 Snapcaster Mage

I built the deck to be favored vs other blue grindy decks like miracles, blade, Pile, TNN-decks, but to also have a good shot vs delver etc.

My matchups where:

Swiss:
Grixis Delver 2-1
4c Delver 0-2
Infect 2-0
UW Taxes 2-0
Grixis Delver 2-1

ID into top 8

Quarters: 0-2 against lands.

Overall very happy with the deck, I think I have a good plan for most opposing strategies. Sad to go out vs lands as I think that matchup is quite favorable, but had I won I would have faced Eldrazi in the Semis I think which is probably the worst matchup for the deck as it is tuned right now.

Deck is a lot of fun and quite powerful, I recommend it! :)

[LarsLeif]

Still working on Grixis Control and getting good results - made the finals of a 32+ man tournament here in Stockholm today with this list:

CREATURES (6)
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Baleful Strix
1 Keranos, God of Storms

ENCHANTMENTS (2)
2 Search for Azcanta

SORCERIES (6)
4 Ponder
2 Night’s Whisper

INSTANTS (22)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Kolaghan’s Command
2 Counterspell
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Spell Snare
2 Flusterstorm

PLANESWALKERS (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

ARTIFACTS (2)
2 Engineered Explosives

LANDS (20)
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire

SIDEBOARD (15)
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thing in the Ice
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Forked Bolt
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Night’s Whisper
1 Snapcaster Mage

Waded through a real swamp of delver decks, these were my matches:

Swiss
2-0 UR Delver
0-2 Grixis Delver
2-1 RG Lands
2-1 BUG Delver
2-0 UW Blade
ID

Quarters: 2-1 UR Delver
Semis: 2-1 UR Delver (same guy as swiss)
Finals: 0-2 BUG Delver (same guy as swiss)

The deck feels very good, in hindsight another strix would have been nice (probably instead of the third Nights whisper). Thing in the Ice was pretty good, certainly won me some games.

[JackaBo]

Great run LL!
You certainly seemed to have a favourable UR match-up.

[LarsLeif]

Great run LL!
You certainly seemed to have a favourable UR match-up.

Thanks!

Heh, yes so it would seem, though some on the games were very tight. Thing in the Ice bailed me out several times ^^

[Hrothgar]

Hi guys!
The Deathrite Shaman’s ban destroy the classic Grixis Delver archetype and the 4c Control Czech Pile archetype.
Many players, after ban, trying to use the Grixis colors with good feedback from test. Here we all can talking about the possible evolutions of the Grixis colors in competitive Legacy.

In this Discord now we have two different sections:

- MIDRANGE (similar to old Czech Pile decks)
- DELVER (similar to old Grixis Delver decks)

Each gameplay variant of Grixis gets its own channel based of 2 subchannels from now on: “General” and “Decklist”. If the subchannels are being used more often and we feel like too many people joined or actively post, we will think about extending it.

If you miss anything or feel like we should add something, please let me know!

I hope you like this and will be good for all of us!

All of you can use this link that will not expire, to invite other players / share the chat

https://discord.gg/GuBX4wd

You’re also free to create new invite.

[LarsLeif]

In this Discord now we have two different sections:

- MIDRANGE (similar to old Czech Pile decks)
- DELVER (similar to old Grixis Delver decks)



What about the Control version? I've been playing that nonstop since even before the ban, and it seems to be the strongest by far post ban as it is the least impacted by losing DRS.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

As far as I'm concerned, we're all in the same boat. So, anything Grixis / BUG midrange or control is something we'd all be interested in.

[H]

4 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Grim Lavamancer
10

2 Jace, TMS
1 Keranos, Gott dur Sturms
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
4

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Terminate
2 Fire/Ice
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Fire Covenant
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Painful Truths
25

3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Riptide Laboratory
20

2 Flusterstorm
2 Null Rod
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Sudden Demise
2 Pithing Needle
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Blood Moon
1 Slaughter Games
15

I had tried a slightly modified version of this list from sdematt over a year ago and it was quite good. I think it would be a good starting point going forward, with some minor changes, of course. I think Lavamancer is probably still a good inclusion, except now to fight D&T rather than Deathrite. I still don't think Ashiok is a good card, but there is Dack and Chandra, TOD now. Still plenty of options and directions to take a midrange-esque list like this.

[diablo4488]

Hello guys

After DRS ban, i was searching for a new control deck (before i played BUG variants).
I don't wanted to start with Miracles, i wanted something new.
So a friend of mine sent me a spicy list, i changed 2-3 cards and i gave it a try:

2 Badlands
4 Baleful Strix
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Island
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Polluted Delta
4 Ponder
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Flusterstorm
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Marsh Casualities
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 True-Name Nemesis

It makes a lot of fun, and i believe K-Command is nuts in this new Stoneforge/Creature meta.

[polski]

Hello guys

After DRS ban, i was searching for a new control deck (before i played BUG variants).
I don't wanted to start with Miracles, i wanted something new.
So a friend of mine sent me a spicy list, i changed 2-3 cards and i gave it a try:

2 Badlands
4 Baleful Strix
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Island
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Polluted Delta
4 Ponder
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Flusterstorm
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Marsh Casualities
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 True-Name Nemesis

It makes a lot of fun, and i believe K-Command is nuts in this new Stoneforge/Creature meta.

I like it a lot. why true-name in the side?

[diablo4488]

I like it a lot. why true-name in the side?

Because Angler gets easily sworded, and Sword is everywhere right now.
If they see Angler game 1, they leave them probably in, if they only see Strix and Snap, they will take some out.
Sure i could play TNN main but i like to close some games fast (Combo etc.) and therefore Angler is huge.

[JackaBo]

Because Angler gets easily sworded, and Sword is everywhere right now.
If they see Angler game 1, they leave them probably in, if they only see Strix and Snap, they will take some out.
Sure i could play TNN main but i like to close some games fast (Combo etc.) and therefore Angler is huge.

With graveyard synergies being the name of the game, since deathrite's ban, i believe a second liliana is in order. She is bonkers with strix and snappy. The awesome thing about lili and kcommand is that they are strong even if the graveyard is hated out.

[Scott]

In their most recent episode (http://www.thebrainstormshow.com/podcasts/episode-040-the-winners-and-losers-in-the-new-world/), the Brainstorm Show talked about a Grixis Control list that they're excited about. The discussion starts at around 1:49.

// Instants
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Kolaghan’s Command

// Sorceries
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

// Enchantments
1 Blood Moon
2 Bitterblossom

// Creatures
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Gurmag Angler

// Planeswalkers
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Lands
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Spell Snare
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Painful Truths
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique

[NedB37]

Without having listened to the episode (time reasons, will come back to it), i'm a little unsure of Bitterblossom without a way to remove it. Decay etc.. I'd tend to agree with previous posts, in that i'd rather have Lilly. Not totally convinced by going Blood Moon heavy when it looks like there are more basics floating around, either. I will listen to the 'cast later though.

[Narcind]

After not having played this deck for ages I've been looking at a few different lists and put this together, heavily inspired by the brainstorm show's list:

Main:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Mountain

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Baleful Strix
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Fatal Push
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Diabloic Edict
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Counterspell

SB:
3 Blood Moon
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Engineered Plague
1 Hydroblast

Sideboard isn't well thought out at all, I haven't done any sideboard mapping, and is just something I threw together and will have to adapt as I play the deck more.

The most notable thing about this list would probably be the choice to not play jtms or liliana, the last hope, and instead playing chandra, torch of defiance and keranos.

My reasoning for playing keranos is that, even though it's a bit weaker, does nothing the turn you play it, and is an additional mana to cast, is that it's much harder to interact with, as aside from countering it, the only cards that really do and see any play are council's judgment and unexpectedly absent, as opposed to the pyroblasts (once in play), punishing fires, revokers, bolts, hexmages, and other random crap that might kill for example a jtms. As a bonus, it also dodges spell pierce and gaddock teeg.

The reason I like chandra is that you're using a plus ability to get value out of her, making her a bit more resilient than jtms, even if she's not quite as powerful of a magic card. She also dodges pyroblast completely, which I think is pretty strong.

Both of these cards obviously dodge abrupt decay as well, and are also considerably easier to cast through blood moon, which I think is significant enough to warrant a mention, since that's something you're actively looking to land vs a lot of decks post sideboard.

Thoughts?

[EronRelentless]

Anybody considered The Scarab God in this Deck since DRS is not a concern anymore?

[Yeaux]

Cross-posting from the Czech Pile thread:

Yesterday I ran the Grixis Control list that the Brainstorm Show podcast guys talked about through a League and went 5-0. The list is:

4 Baleful Strix
2 Gurmag Angler
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Bitterblossom
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Blood Moon
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Fatal Push
3 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Badlands
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
2 Blood Moon
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Snare
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Engineered Plague
1 Painful Truths
1 Vendilion Clique

I really liked Gurmag and Bitterblossom. Sticking an early BB against most control decks or even decks you generally have a hard time closing out allowed me to have the constant pressure that control decks like this can lack sometimes. Sometimes fetching the basics to play around wastelands was awkward, but without any main deck hymns, it's not too bad. The amount of wastelands that were invalidated from my opponents I miss hymns, but this deck having four MD targeted removal makes up for it a bit. Next time I run it through a league, I'll likely move the MD moon to the side for another JTMS or other sticky threat.

[Hrothgar]

Hi guys!
The Deathrite Shaman’s ban destroy the classic Grixis Delver archetype and the 4c Control Czech Pile archetype.
Many players, after ban, trying to use the Grixis colors with good feedback from test. Here we all can talking about the possible evolutions of the Grixis colors in competitive Legacy.

In this Discord now we have two different sections:

- MIDRANGE (similar to old Czech Pile decks)
- DELVER (similar to old Grixis Delver decks)

Each gameplay variant of Grixis gets its own channel based of 2 subchannels from now on: “General” and “Decklist”. If the subchannels are being used more often and we feel like too many people joined or actively post, we will think about extending it.

If you miss anything or feel like we should add something, please let me know!

I hope you like this and will be good for all of us!

All of you can use this link that will not expire, to invite other players / share the chat

https://discord.gg/GuBX4wd

You’re also free to create new invite.

[Misersoneof]

I made a similar post in the Czech Pile thread but I want to post here to get the most attention. I have been looking at Wilson Hunter's new Grixis Control list and I think it's a good underdog choice for the current meta. It has answers to a lot of things other decks will be doing and I can't help but feel that very few opponents will see it coming.

For reference, the list is:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Kolaghan’s Command
1 Blood Moon

2 Bitterblossom
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

SB:
2 Blood Moon
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Snare
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Engineered Plague
1 Painful Truths
1 Vendilion Clique


However, there are a couple of card choices that I don't really understand and I want to know if someone can help explain them to me.

1. Bitterblossom

This card seems to be making rounds in Grixis Delver and Control lists. I have heard a lot of people talk about how Miracles has such a hard time against it but how strong is it against them? How is it against decks like delver or Death & Taxes?

2. Blood Moon

With the change in the meta, there has been a shift away from greedy manabases and more basics have been coming out. The list above runs 1 Moon in the main and 2 in the SB. I can see Moon being effective against something like RUG delver but how good is it against the rest of the meta?

[DemolitionColorScheme]

Yeah, I've listened to that Podcast (was a good one!) and how one of them (the guy that created it) went pretty in depth about his configuration.
There are a few points I'd like to address when looking at lists that lean more on 1CMC discard, 1CMC permission and drop Hymn altogether:

- I've found out that while it does make the deck a lot leaner - which is better vs RUG (for example), it does drain a lot of the power out of the deck itself. Hymn is still one hell of a card and outside of RUG Delver and UR Delver (which was never a T1 thing), there aren't really decks out there that run Daze.

Even with manadenial being out there, just getting to 2 mana and slamming Hymn still feels extremely powerful and something we should think about utilizing, since it plays into our gameplan of grinding them out of resources while we're gathering ours.

I'm not saying 1CMC discard is bad, not at all - but, I do feel that it might play a roll next to 2 to 3 Hymns (and maybe a few in the Side).

- Blood Moon:
When reading their Sideboard Mapping section, the extra Blood Moons actually only come in vs RUG Delver, BUG Delver (not even a thing at the moment), Eldrazi , Loam and Lands. I think that's pretty narrow, even though I can think of stuff like MUD and BUG Control, if that's ever going to be a thing.

The costs of playing with Blood Moon is pretty heavy. Not only is that list running 6 basics, including a mountain - which I feel is just wrong - it also turns off your own fetches which we usually run 10 to 11 of. Besides, a T3 Blood Moon in Legacy is just ... bleh. I dunno, this isn't Modern. People can also telegraph Blood Moon when they see you fetching basics when they're not even on Wasteland and while we're not 4C anymore, the color requirements are definitely still there. Besides, it's also a slight non-bo with the Gurmags, since the fetches do actually matter with powering them out.

I think running with an Island + Swamp is still correct - maybe a 3rd basic; depends on the build and the meta. I can see a list running on Spell Pierce, Counterspell and Jace running with double island or a build leaning on Hymn's and Liliana running with double swamp. Not a huge fan of it, but it's definitely a possibility.

- Bitterblossom:
I've always thought of Bitterblossom as a real threat and I know Grixis Delver was experimenting with it at the end of the last meta. I can definitely see merits in running it, but it's extremely slow and there is no way to stabilize our life total with DRS now being gone. I don't really know how I feel about this. Great vs Miracles and control decks, always has been and while - in theory - it's great vs RUG Delver due to the tokens chumping for days, it also is an extremely tempo-negative card and plays towards their gameplan a bit. From their sideboard mapping, it comes out vs RUG anyways.(edited)
The upside is that it's a threat that, while anemic at first, doesn't require any further investment and enables you to keep on clocking (slowly) while digging for permission and discard.

[Narcind]

Having played this deck both with and without blood moon in the past, I feel like even though it's not amazing in the deck, you more or less need it to have any hope of winning vs lands, at least in my experience.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

Having played this deck both with and without blood moon in the past, I feel like even though it's not amazing in the deck, you more or less need it to have any hope of winning vs lands, at least in my experience.
I don't really agree. I mean, I'm not packing 4 Blue Blast to make Burn a more winnable matchup, for example. The new lists can put on a bit more pressure via Gurmag and I've experienced a better Lands matchup - but, that might also be 'cause I'm running 2x Wasteland, 2x Needle and 3x Surgical in the Side; those feel a lot less narrow than Blood Moon.

[Narcind]

I don't really agree. I mean, I'm not packing 4 Blue Blast to make Burn a more winnable matchup, for example. The new lists can put on a bit more pressure via Gurmag and I've experienced a better Lands matchup - but, that might also be 'cause I'm running 2x Wasteland, 2x Needle and 3x Surgical in the Side; those feel a lot less narrow than Blood Moon.

I think blue blast vs burn is a poor comparision, something like chill is probably closer, or warmth out of a white deck, in the sense that while the card might be a bit narrow, resolving it is almost game over in the matchups where you want it, and since lands is a deck I'd really not sit across from, I'm fine with having it in my sideboard. And it's also not bad vs delver, which is nice.

[MEWTU]

Hey guys, I just wanted to let you know that the Czech Pile thread in DTB (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31871-DTB-Czech-Pile/page25) is still currently active with Grixis Control discussion. There's some good stuff going on in there too so I just wanted to give you the heads up! I think that thread will end up being changed or consolidated so we can work toward one thread eventually. I think the deck is still very good.

edit: well I see that was already alluded to in a few posts above, but I'll leave this to reiterate and post some thoughts below!


Because Angler gets easily sworded, and Sword is everywhere right now.
If they see Angler game 1, they leave them probably in, if they only see Strix and Snap, they will take some out.
Sure i could play TNN main but i like to close some games fast (Combo etc.) and therefore Angler is huge.

I'm not in love with TNN in this deck. I feel like he kind of has to be alongside equipment right now. It pitches to Force of Will and I guess blocks decently and that's all it has going in my opinion. The clock isn't particularly fast and he doesn't generate any value coming into play. Sword isn't really everywhere, it's basically in two archetypes, Miracles which can already Terminus/Verdict/Judgement your TNNs and Death and Taxes which I think is a positive matchup. So I'm not super worried there and the clock is just so much better with Angler. I'm currently on 2 Angler 0 TNN in the 75 and liking it but I am definitely open minded so if enough people keep coming back to TNN I can give it a shot.

In my opinion it would be better to have extra Planeswalkers in the sideboard if you need more threats there, since they are harder to deal with even than TNN IMO, and have additional utility in other matchups.

I think our deck is so value driven that we don't need to "play games" or try to gambit our opponent by sideboarding in TNNs when we think the opponent will leave StP, siding them out when we think they'll cut etc. I'm happy to play against Swords, I can't tell you how good it feels when your Strix or Snapcaster Mage gets StP'd.


With graveyard synergies being the name of the game, since deathrite's ban, i believe a second liliana is in order. She is bonkers with strix and snappy. The awesome thing about lili and kcommand is that they are strong even if the graveyard is hated out.

Exactly. A second Lili in the sideboard is a very good choice if you want another threat IMO. It's basically insta GG against Elves/Goblins, very good against DnT, and also fine against grindy matchups where you can get to Ulti. I ultied my Lili 3 times(!) in the last tournament I played, it was sweet (find a writeup in the Cz Pile thread if you're interested)



After not having played this deck for ages I've been looking at a few different lists and put this together, heavily inspired by the brainstorm show's list:

List

Sideboard isn't well thought out at all, I haven't done any sideboard mapping, and is just something I threw together and will have to adapt as I play the deck more.

The most notable thing about this list would probably be the choice to not play jtms or liliana, the last hope, and instead playing chandra, torch of defiance and keranos.

My reasoning for playing keranos is that, even though it's a bit weaker, does nothing the turn you play it, and is an additional mana to cast, is that it's much harder to interact with, as aside from countering it, the only cards that really do and see any play are council's judgment and unexpectedly absent, as opposed to the pyroblasts (once in play), punishing fires, revokers, bolts, hexmages, and other random crap that might kill for example a jtms. As a bonus, it also dodges spell pierce and gaddock teeg.

The reason I like chandra is that you're using a plus ability to get value out of her, making her a bit more resilient than jtms, even if she's not quite as powerful of a magic card. She also dodges pyroblast completely, which I think is pretty strong.

Both of these cards obviously dodge abrupt decay as well, and are also considerably easier to cast through blood moon, which I think is significant enough to warrant a mention, since that's something you're actively looking to land vs a lot of decks post sideboard.

Thoughts?

Hmm. I am pretty dubious on Chandra and Keranos. Chandra is just a worse Jace that doesn't pitch to Force in my eyes (and Jace is on pitch to Force duty quite a decent amount, I've found). And Keranos costs a million mana at sorcery speed which is tough vs Wasteland/Port decks. I could see it being good once it resolved against like DnT and Miracles, but I just don't see that happening very often (due to land hate our counterspells). How has he been in testing? You make some fine points about Blood Moon, not dying to Pyroblast etc but I think Jace is just better enough that it's not worth it. And Lili Last Hope is amazing in a lot of matchups, would highly recommend running one.

I also am very low on Inquisition of Kozilek, in Legacy in general I basically think it is just incorrect to play over Thoughtseize 99% of the time. There are too many blockbuster 4+ spells that we have to get rid of (Jace, Ad Nauseam, Force of Will, Sneak Attack, etc etc) and the lifeloss isn't super consequential given that we aren't playing with shocklands


Anybody considered The Scarab God in this Deck since DRS is not a concern anymore?

Hmm, seems a bit too expensive/not enough immediate impact. I'd probably just rather have another Jace if I needed a big expensive threat, or a Gurmag Angler for an easier to power out fatty.


Yeah, I've listened to that Podcast (was a good one!) and how one of them (the guy that created it) went pretty in depth about his configuration.
There are a few points I'd like to address when looking at lists that lean more on 1CMC discard, 1CMC permission and drop Hymn altogether:

- I've found out that while it does make the deck a lot leaner - which is better vs RUG (for example), it does drain a lot of the power out of the deck itself. Hymn is still one hell of a card and outside of RUG Delver and UR Delver (which was never a T1 thing), there aren't really decks out there that run Daze.

Even with manadenial being out there, just getting to 2 mana and slamming Hymn still feels extremely powerful and something we should think about utilizing, since it plays into our gameplan of grinding them out of resources while we're gathering ours.

I'm not saying 1CMC discard is bad, not at all - but, I do feel that it might play a roll next to 2 to 3 Hymns (and maybe a few in the Side).

- Blood Moon:
When reading their Sideboard Mapping section, the extra Blood Moons actually only come in vs RUG Delver, BUG Delver (not even a thing at the moment), Eldrazi , Loam and Lands. I think that's pretty narrow, even though I can think of stuff like MUD and BUG Control, if that's ever going to be a thing.

The costs of playing with Blood Moon is pretty heavy. Not only is that list running 6 basics, including a mountain - which I feel is just wrong - it also turns off your own fetches which we usually run 10 to 11 of. Besides, a T3 Blood Moon in Legacy is just ... bleh. I dunno, this isn't Modern. People can also telegraph Blood Moon when they see you fetching basics when they're not even on Wasteland and while we're not 4C anymore, the color requirements are definitely still there. Besides, it's also a slight non-bo with the Gurmags, since the fetches do actually matter with powering them out.

I think running with an Island + Swamp is still correct - maybe a 3rd basic; depends on the build and the meta. I can see a list running on Spell Pierce, Counterspell and Jace running with double island or a build leaning on Hymn's and Liliana running with double swamp. Not a huge fan of it, but it's definitely a possibility.

- Bitterblossom:
I've always thought of Bitterblossom as a real threat and I know Grixis Delver was experimenting with it at the end of the last meta. I can definitely see merits in running it, but it's extremely slow and there is no way to stabilize our life total with DRS now being gone. I don't really know how I feel about this. Great vs Miracles and control decks, always has been and while - in theory - it's great vs RUG Delver due to the tokens chumping for days, it also is an extremely tempo-negative card and plays towards their gameplan a bit. From their sideboard mapping, it comes out vs RUG anyways.(edited)
The upside is that it's a threat that, while anemic at first, doesn't require any further investment and enables you to keep on clocking (slowly) while digging for permission and discard.

I'm pretty high on four 1CMC discard spells right now. The meta got a bit more combo oriented with the loss of DRS in my eyes, and Thoughtseize is just so much better than Hymn in those matchups. We already have a pretty strong game against grindy matchups, as well, and I think getting the extra percentage points vs combo while leaving a couple Hymns in the board is the right idea. It's also easier on the manabase and better vs Wasteland/Port, and lastly gives us some more stuff to do T1 than just Ponder (since Brainstorm T1 isn't really where you want to be at -- I'm also running a couple Preordain for that reason as well).

Blood Moon I don't have enough of a read on. I played two in my sideboard at the event I won last weekend and it was a game ender in one match, but a weird one vs Steel Stompy so not exactly a tiered list. I would be fine cutting them, as playing one is kind of awkward and it would just free up some slots. I think I'll try that in the next event and see if I miss them. I don't at all think you need any more than three basics (2 Island 1 Swamp) to play Blood Moon though. 6 basics is bonkers. And I think T3 Blood Moon in a deck that's able to control the board and hand until then is fine. But yeah I'll try swapping them out for maybe a Bitterblossom and another K Command or something (got a fair amount of DnT in my meta) and see how that works.

Bitterblossom also not enough read on, I love the card though. I think it's pretty much only good vs Miracles or mirror and that maybe we can do better in the slot. What else would you bring it in for? Seems bad vs RUG Delver, too slow, hurts us, and just playing it to get to chump block is unattractive to me. The only thing is that if another deck brings IN Bitterblossom against us, we're going to have a hard time dealing with it basically save for Engineered Explosives. So if it does somehow get popular might be right to run 1 or 2 somewhere.


I think blue blast vs burn is a poor comparision, something like chill is probably closer, or warmth out of a white deck, in the sense that while the card might be a bit narrow, resolving it is almost game over in the matchups where you want it, and since lands is a deck I'd really not sit across from, I'm fine with having it in my sideboard. And it's also not bad vs delver, which is nice.

Agreed. From my experiences Lands is a very tough matchup. I can't really see how we would win consistently in anywhere near an acceptable % without Blood Moon. Maybe my sideboard is just not fully equipped to handle it. Burn is so much less of the meta than Lands that I would be okay dedicating a couple anti-lands slots (with utility elsewhere) whereas I wouldn't burn (I'm not even on any Hydroblasts at all anymore now that Moon itself isn't that great against us)

[GoblinZ]

I took quite some time to find this thread, wonder why no one posts anything recently although this deck is very hot now.

I am new to this deck and play it in small tournament twice recently.

Here is my result:

2-0 vs Steel Stompy
2-1 vs Sneak&show
2-1 vs Eldrazi Post Ramp

2-0 vs Esper Bladecontrol
2-0 vs Burn
2-0 vs Infect

Seems very sweet.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

It's because most people are posting on Discord and not a lot of us seem to be using forums anymore.
Here's the Discord:
- https://discord.gg/GuBX4wd

[Poron]

Because Grixis wasn’t already good enough
https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/271/32/636727930493179482.png

Oh yes it’s flashbackable and doesn’t require you counter the first like Surgical Extraction.

Dulcis in Fundo: it gets lands. Dark Depths, Karakas and so on

[Michael Keller]

Day 2'd the SCG Legacy Open in Baltimore with Grixis Control.

Report to come.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Because Grixis wasn’t already good enough
https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/271/32/636727930493179482.png

Oh yes it’s flashbackable and doesn’t require you counter the first like Surgical Extraction.

Dulcis in Fundo: it gets lands. Dark Depths, Karakas and so onI'm not sure this is good enough...

[Leenus]

How come no one plays grixis control with 2 counterbalance instead of 2 hymns. less aggro on turn 2 Black Black and seems pretty high value all around

[Cave]

#Unmoored ego is just slightly better than Lost Legacy, a card that nobody plays and it gets lands too. Grixis control is a deck packing a lot of permission: you don't really need to tap out for 3 sorcery when you can remove instant-speed with Surgical Extraction or maybe maaaaybe Extirpate. This card does not keep up with format average power level.

#Counterbalance requires too much setup. In fact, many UWx Miracles are dropping it, let alone playing it here. You ain't miracles, you tend to tap out, you play less Jaces (1-2 opposed to 2-3) and cantrips (8 instead of 10-12): no way you can constantly keep track of what's on top. Moreover, you speak about t2 hymn and how it's prone to hate/wasteland. Well, t2 counterbalance could be less prone to aggro, except it literally timewalks the opponent and you're left with a blind flip wondering what's on the top of your deck. Miracle decks can sometimes do that because they allow problems to happen and then they fix them later. Grixis control does not play like that, that's why you play discard instead of cb. Also playing cb>hymn while still packing other 4 selective discard spells is a bit of a nonbo.

[Sinkhole]

New to Grixis Control and brewing a list up right now and not sure about a maindeck choice. I thoughted of playing one Blood Moon in the main deck and one in the side, due to budget reasons I am heavy on Basics, but not sure, if it is good enough especally as random 1-of. Blood Moon destroys a few decks alone, but also can be completly dead. So not sure, if Moon makes sense and if I should play 1 main. That`s the mana base I would like to play:

2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Island (maybe + 1 if 21 lands total is better)
2 Swamp
1 Mountain

[LarsLeif]

New to Grixis Control and brewing a list up right now and not sure about a maindeck choice. I thoughted of playing one Blood Moon in the main deck and one in the side, due to budget reasons I am heavy on Basics, but not sure, if it is good enough especally as random 1-of. Blood Moon destroys a few decks alone, but also can be completly dead. So not sure, if Moon makes sense and if I should play 1 main. That`s the mana base I would like to play:

2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Island (maybe + 1 if 21 lands total is better)
2 Swamp
1 Mountain

I think you should look at legacy superstar Yuta Takahashi's manabase in his Grixis Control list from PT 25, I think that it's a really good take on a manabase and it also allows you to play Moon/B2B if you want to.

Link: https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/pt25a/pro-tour-25th-anniversary-legacy-decklists-2018-08-05

[Sinkhole]

I think you should look at legacy superstar Yuta Takahashi's manabase in his Grixis Control list from PT 25, I think that it's a really good take on a manabase and it also allows you to play Moon/B2B if you want to.

Link: https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/pt25a/pro-tour-25th-anniversary-legacy-decklists-2018-08-05

Thank you. I have tried the mana base with Blood Moon main, mana base was solid, but works better with more duals. Also Blood Moon in the main was really underwhelming it doesn`t fit the game plan and most of the time it was dead in hand. Maybe moon is worth 1 or 2 slots in the sideboard for improving the Eldrazi and Lands matchup, which are difficult for Grixis.

[silinhateamtop]

What is the worst hate card against us in Delver / Shadow Decks, other than Liliana, the last Hope? Winter Worb, Biterblossom, TNN, Liliana, Sulfuric Vortex, any others?

[CptHaddock]

What is the worst hate card against us in Delver / Shadow Decks, other than Liliana, the last Hope? Winter Worb, Biterblossom, TNN, Liliana, Sulfuric Vortex, any others?

Last hope/darkblast are the best way to fight through grixis control with delver/shadow. You're better off killing strixes and pushing damage through than trying to fight them in the long game. I think that BB is too slow and it's too easy to control now that everyone is running last hope, it doesn't do anything if you aren't getting it down early. I haven't run into vortex in a while but I can see it doing some work, it seems like kind of a liability though against a deck that can pressure really fast with bolt snapcaster bolt and angler.

[btm10]

What is the worst hate card against us in Delver / Shadow Decks, other than Liliana, the last Hope? Winter Worb, Biterblossom, TNN, Liliana, Sulfuric Vortex, any others?

The number of times I've killed my opponents with their Bitterblossoms is comparable to the number of times their Bitterblossoms have killed me. It's much scarier maindeck alongside Pyromancer than it is out of the board, when Control ia going to have more sweepers and probably more Liliana, the Last Hope (if they aren't maindecking two to begin with). A 3 Bolt/2 Push split (rather than the stock 3 Push/2 Bolt) is pretty reasonable if you aren't seeing many Shadows or Tarmogoyfs, and is a very good way to steal games against a Bitterblossom.

[Kofurea]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-sultai-control-60679#paper

This deck felt really close to what grixis is trying to do. How do people feel it compares to grixis?

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

[DemolitionColorScheme]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-sultai-control-60679#paper

This deck felt really close to what grixis is trying to do. How do people feel it compares to grixis?

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
The consensus is; unfavorable. Pyroblast and K-Command are just superior tools; especially the Blasts.

[NegatorITA]

I've not played against lands since a while... actually since A LOT, (probably when deathrite was still legal) since in my local area only one player used to play that deck and dropped it for a while.
Now the nightmare is back, and it's me or game one is almost unbeatable?
even post board I struggle...:rolleyes:

[kubalonek]

Generally it is about 20/80 pre board. Post board if you run Blood Moon and Surgical it can be like 40/60. Beware of Choke post board ;)

[NegatorITA]

Generally it is about 20/80 pre board. Post board if you run Blood Moon and Surgical it can be like 40/60. Beware of Choke post board ;)

Nice numbers we got :(

[NegatorITA]

I see that the GP list pretty much all had the same sideboard plan
so blood moon (pretty obvious), a lonely spell pierce and 2 bitterblossom

What are the indication of these choices?
I never liked the lonely pierce, seems weak running a lonely "early/mid game counter" in a deck that is slow as grixis
What about bitterblossom? I personally run Engineered plague in the board, so I don't fear that much, I can't remove the blossom, they can't remove the plague /mirror match speaking/ I win
It's also blanked by Liliana the last hope, wheter we are speaking of the mirror or against grixis delver.
Surely it's helpful against miracle, but, is that the only real application or I am missing other uses?

[Merrioc]

When did this thread just off and die - Is Grixis Control still a DTB?

[DemolitionColorScheme]

When did this thread just off and die - Is Grixis Control still a DTB?
I think barely anyone uses forums these days to discuss decks. Most people tend to prefer Discord. Grixis Control is very much still a DTB, though. It's steadily putting up results and the last few months it's always in the top 5 decks (check TCdecks, for example). Anyways, if you've got Discord, I'm one of the mods there (Arafúra) and you're absolutely welcome to join us:
- https://discord.gg/GuBX4wd
(https://discord.gg/GuBX4wd)

[NidStyles]

I think barely anyone uses forums these days to discuss decks. Most people tend to prefer Discord. Grixis Control is very much still a DTB, though. It's steadily putting up results and the last few months it's always in the top 5 decks (check TCdecks, for example). Anyways, if you've got Discord, I'm one of the mods there (Arafúra) and you're absolutely welcome to join us:
- https://discord.gg/GuBX4wd
(https://discord.gg/GuBX4wd)

More so that you lose money when tech gets stolen by posting it on forums.

There are so many rats and thieves in the world these days that trusting even the owner of the board is impossible. Like seeing some e-celebrity shuffling your exact 75 because you left the list somewhere, before you had a chance to surprise somebody with it.

Discord is just as bad.

[meffeo]

Any thoughts on Bob Huang's 25th place on the Legacy Challenge of two weeks ago?


2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Narset, Parter of Veils

4 Dreadhorde Arcanist
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Ponder
2 Preordain
2 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
2 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Liliana's Triumph

1 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Prismatic Vista
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

2 Thoughtseize
2 Back to Basics
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Hydroblast
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Plague Engineer
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast


I personally like the less-boring approach to the deck, and Arcanist is the real value machine. I'd play a slight different manabase, though, and maybe replacing B2B with Moons.