Announcing Exalted Triggers

[Valtrix]

I think that I understand this correctly, but given that it's highly important to a deck I'm playing in modern I thought it best to double check. As I understand the "new" trigger rules, I only have to demonstrate that an exalted trigger has happened at the first point it matters (usually combat damage). So, for example, I can just say, "Swing with Qasali Pridemage" and not have to announce/resolve the exalted trigger right after attackers are declared. Then when it gets to the combat damage step, I can say "Take 3 because of exalted," thereby indicating that the exalted trigger happened.

Confirmation that my understanding of the new trigger rules would be great. I believe the relevant judge ruling is in 4.4 of the Tournament rules:


Triggered abilities are considered to be forgotten by their controller once they have taken an action past the point
where the triggered ability would have an observable impact on the game. Triggered abilities that are forgotten are
not considered to have gone onto the stack

And there was an article I found on Wizards discussing the new trigger rule a bit more which seems to indicate that my understanding of exalted is correct.

[cdr]

You're correct, exalted is "non-visible" so it only has to be acknowledged when it has a visible impact on the game - eg, a life total is affected or a creature takes lethal damage.

You actually want to look at the Game Play Error - Missed Trigger section of the IPG:


The point by which the player needs to demonstrate this awareness depends on the impact that the trigger would
have on the game:
• A triggered ability that requires its controller to choose targets (other than 'target opponent'),
modes, or other choices made when the ability is put onto the stack: The controller must announce
those choices before they next pass priority.
• A triggered ability that causes a change in the visible game state (including life totals) or requires a
choice upon resolution: The controller must take the appropriate physical action or make it clear what the
action taken or choice made is before taking any game actions (such as casting a sorcery spell or explicitly
moving to the next step or phase) that can be taken only after the triggered ability should have resolved.
Note that casting an instant spell or activating an ability doesn’t mean a triggered ability has been forgotten,
as it could still be on the stack.
• A triggered ability that changes the rules of the game: The controller must prevent an opponent from
taking any resulting illegal action.
• A triggered ability that affects the game state in non-visible ways: The controller must take physical
action or make it clear what the action is the first time the change has an effect on the visible game state.

[Claymore]

As a followup, even Swiftspear triggers are "non-visible", since they don't have an impact on the game until combat damage. I saw this ruled a few times at the GP.

[Warden]

I always say "declare attacks, exalted" to cover my ass. It's also worthwhile to point out all the exalted triggers (ie; QPM and 2 Nobles on field): "declare attacks, exalted-exalted-exalted". As pointed out, you can easily point out a missed trigger should your opponent "miss" formal declaration of non-visibles. It's nit-picky, sure, but spelled out for competitive players to adhere to.

[cdr]

I always say "declare attacks, exalted" to cover my ass. It's also worthwhile to point out all the exalted triggers (ie; QPM and 2 Nobles on field): "declare attacks, exalted-exalted-exalted". As pointed out, you can easily point out a missed trigger should your opponent "miss" formal declaration of non-visibles. It's nit-picky, sure, but spelled out for competitive players to adhere to.

I'm not sure I'm understanding your post. Announcing every trigger is the most sporting thing to do, and probably the safest, but not the most competively advantageous. You can't be "easily" penalized for not announcing your non-visisble triggers, you just have to demonstrate awareness that they happened when something occurs that makes them relevant.

[Dice_Box]

I'm not sure I'm understanding your post. Announcing every trigger is the most sporting thing to do, and probably the safest, but not the most competively advantageous. You can't be "easily" penalized for not announcing your non-visisble triggers, you just have to demonstrate awareness that they happened when something occurs that makes them relevant.

So would that mean that you can pass over the triggers and first bring them up at Damage step since that's when they are most likely to have a relevant impact?

[cdr]

So would that mean that you can pass over the triggers and first bring them up at Damage step since that's when they are most likely to have a relevant impact?

That's exactly what the rule on non-visible triggers means. You don't have to acknowledge they happened until they affect the visible game state.

[Dice_Box]

Ok, do you mind if I ask for the rule number on that? Got a feeling I am going to be quoting this one in the not to distant future.

[cdr]

Ok, do you mind if I ask for the rule number on that? Got a feeling I am going to be quoting this one in the not to distant future.

The Infraction Procedure Guide, Game Play Error - Missed Trigger. Quoted above. The relevant of the four categories of triggers is:

A triggered ability that affects the game state in non-visible ways: The controller must take physical
action or make it clear what the action is the first time the change has an effect on the visible game state.

[Maagler]

I have a situation question that I feel might help clarify this for me:

If I have a Monastery Swiftspear on the board and I play a ponder without announcing the trigger. I go to combat and my opponent plays sudden shock on Swiftspear.

does the Swiftspear die in this situation because the trigger wasn't announced?

[cdr]

I have a situation question that I feel might help clarify this for me:

If I have a Monastery Swiftspear on the board and I play a ponder without announcing the trigger. I go to combat and my opponent plays sudden shock on Swiftspear.

does the Swiftspear die in this situation because the trigger wasn't announced?

No, this is the "the first time the change has an effect on the visible game state", so you just point out that its a 2/3 because the ability triggered and resolved off the Ponder.

Your opponent could ask you what its toughness is before deciding to play Sudden Shock (derived information, you can answer honestly or decline to answer) or ask how many times it's triggered this turn (free information, you have to answer and answer honestly).

Obviously he can't be responding to the Swiftspear trigger if the Ponder has already resolved.

[slikwilly]

How does this work with respect to a Delver trigger. At the GP I had an opponent move to his upkeep with an unflipped Delver, cast a Brainstorm and then attempt to flip the Delver after I resolving Brainstorm. I called a judge and it was ruled a missed trigger, but the way I read this, it seems like he should have been able to flip his Delver.

[iamajellydonut]

How does this work with respect to a Delver trigger. At the GP I had an opponent move to his upkeep with an unflipped Delver, cast a Brainstorm and then attempt to flip the Delver after I resolving Brainstorm. I called a judge and it was ruled a missed trigger, but the way I read this, it seems like he should have been able to flip his Delver.

While this is entirely unrelated to anything within this thread, I am actually interested in an opinion from someone like cdr as to why this was the case. His post is kind of unclear, but as I see it, the trigger was never missed. Never strictly declared, no, but there was never a point of no return. Never a point where Delver's trigger could not have possibly been on the stack any longer. Not like resolving Gitaxian Probe without putting out an Elemental token for Young Pyromancer. Not like putting a charge counter on Aether Vial while your opponent has a Sulfuric Vortex.

[cdr]

How does this work with respect to a Delver trigger. At the GP I had an opponent move to his upkeep with an unflipped Delver, cast a Brainstorm and then attempt to flip the Delver after I resolving Brainstorm. I called a judge and it was ruled a missed trigger, but the way I read this, it seems like he should have been able to flip his Delver.

You're right, it shouldn't have "been ruled a missed trigger". Note that Delver of Secrets's trigger is in the second category of triggers, as it requires a choice. The other triggers we've been discussing in this thread have been non-visible, category four.

The description of the second category tells you exactly what you need to know: "The controller must take the appropriate physical action or make it clear what the action taken or choice made is before taking any game actions (such as casting a sorcery spell or explicitly moving to the next step or phase) that can be taken only after the triggered ability should have resolved. Note that casting an instant spell or activating an ability doesn’t mean a triggered ability has been forgotten, as it could still be on the stack."

If an instant is cast in the same phase/step as a trigger, it's assumed the instant is going on the stack above the trigger. Your opponent did not have to acknowledge the trigger until he resolved it.

[Richard Cheese]

How does this work with respect to a Delver trigger. At the GP I had an opponent move to his upkeep with an unflipped Delver, cast a Brainstorm and then attempt to flip the Delver after I resolving Brainstorm. I called a judge and it was ruled a missed trigger, but the way I read this, it seems like he should have been able to flip his Delver.

I would think that Delver's trigger is "non-visible" since it requires action on the part of one of the players. That said, I don't know how you determined he was past the point of that trigger occurring before Brainstorming. As long as he didn't move to his draw step, it seems very nebulous to argue that the beginning of the upkeep past, we're now knee-deep in upkeeps, and Delver doesn't get to flip.

[TsumiBand]

Per cdr's quote from the IPG -- How are life totals part of the "visible game-state", but power/toughness aren't? It seems like checking creatures for nonzero toughness would require a nod; otherwise if life totals were treated the same there'd be no need to announce changes in life total until you were either expressly prompted to do so, or when you actually lose the game.

Perhaps there's a reference for what qualifies as "visible". I feel like power and toughness are definitely a visible aspect of the game.

[Tammit67]

Per cdr's quote from the IPG -- How are life totals part of the "visible game-state", but power/toughness aren't? It seems like checking creatures for nonzero toughness would require a nod; otherwise if life totals were treated the same there'd be no need to announce changes in life total until you were either expressly prompted to do so, or when you actually lose the game.

Perhaps there's a reference for what qualifies as "visible". I feel like power and toughness are definitely a visible aspect of the game.

Life totals are free information. Power and toughness are not.

Check the section on player communication for details: http://www.wizards.com/ContentResources/Wizards/WPN/Main/Documents/Magic_The_Gathering_Tournament_Rules_PDF1.pdf

[TsumiBand]

Life totals are free information. Power and toughness are not.

Check the section on player communication for details: http://www.wizards.com/ContentResources/Wizards/WPN/Main/Documents/Magic_The_Gathering_Tournament_Rules_PDF1.pdf

The list of things that fall under "physical status" seem arbitrary. Tapped, flipped, unattached and phased?? Is that comprehensive? Like, as a recent example, what sets Monstrous apart from Phased? Besides their in-game effect of course.

[cdr]

The list of things that fall under "physical status" seem arbitrary. Tapped, flipped, unattached and phased?? Is that comprehensive? Like, as a recent example, what sets Monstrous apart from Phased? Besides their in-game effect of course.

It's not arbitrary; statuses are the the things that are physically represented by manipulating the card.

110.6. A permanent's status is its physical state. There are four status categories, each of which has two possible values: tapped/untapped, flipped/unflipped, face up/face down, and phased in/phased out. Each permanent always has one of these values for each of these categories.

(I was wrong above about the face of a double-faced card being a state.)

It's worth noting that whether a permanent is monstrous is free information even though it's not a status or part of the visible state of the game; it's a "detail of a past game action that still affects the game state".

Whether an object has counters on it is free information, and you are required to accurately represent the number of counters on an object, but the number of counters is technically derived information (a characteristic of the object).

[Ace/Homebrew]

Your opponent could ask you what its toughness is before deciding to play Sudden Shock (derived information, you can answer honestly or decline to answer) or ask how many times it's triggered this turn (free information, you have to answer and answer honestly).

'Declining to answer' seems interesting... This is going to sound like I'm being a smart ass, but I'm seriously asking here:

To decline to answer, do I state "I am declining to answer."? Do I just sit mute? Is there any requirement on my part to even acknowledge the question I am declining to answer?

Is there a whole category of questions I can decline to answer? :eyebrow:

If my opponent asks me a question I can decline to answer, and I'm declining to answer, and he calls a judge, what would happen?

Again... these are serious questions.

[Tammit67]

'Declining to answer' seems interesting... This is going to sound like I'm being a smart ass, but I'm seriously asking here:

To decline to answer, do I state "I am declining to answer."? Do I just sit mute? Is there any requirement on my part to even acknowledge the question I am declining to answer?

You can do that or just shrug your shoulders and say "you tell me". You can say whatever except mislead an opponent.


Is there a whole category of questions I can decline to answer? :eyebrow:

Yeah, anything pertaining to derived information or hidden information. Note if someone is asking you from the capacity of a judge, you MUST answer when asked (you can do so away from the table) as outlined in my link


If my opponent asks me a question I can decline to answer, and I'm declining to answer, and he calls a judge, what would happen?

Again... these are serious questions.

Judge should tell him that you are under no obligation to answer. Simple as that.

You have a lord of atlantis and a cursecatcher out and i ask what is curscatcher's P/T? You can say nothing or otherwise decline to answer. A judge gets called, opponent states his case. Judge should say "he doesn't have to answer" and the game should continue

[Ace/Homebrew]

just shrug your shoulders

Thanks Matt! :laugh:

[Di]

For another semi-related question, albeit in Standard:

If a player has a Seeker of the Way and then plays Lightning Strike, but doesn't announce any Seeker trigger, would I then be able to Abzan Charm it?

[iamajellydonut]

For another semi-related question, albeit in Standard:

If a player has a Seeker of the Way and then plays Lightning Strike, but doesn't announce any Seeker trigger, would I then be able to Abzan Charm it?

Yes.

This can actually be answered without involving visible/non-visible confusion. There is no "may" involved with Prowess. Either Seeker of the Way gets +1/+1 and you Abzan Charm it, or your opponent tries to make it a missed trigger and you choose to put the trigger on the stack anyway.

[Richard Cheese]

For another semi-related question, albeit in Standard:

If a player has a Seeker of the Way and then plays Lightning Strike, but doesn't announce any Seeker trigger, would I then be able to Abzan Charm it?

I would think so, since Prowess is not a "may" ability. Not sure how it would work with something like Ajani's Pridemate though. I think you always have the option to point out triggers to your opponent?

[iamajellydonut]

Not sure how it would work with something like Ajani's Pridemate though.

Ajani's Pridemate receives a +1/+1 counter when its ability resolves. There is no unknown middle ground with that card. Either Ajani's Pridemate got a +1/+1 counter, Ajani's Pridemate's controller chose not to put a +1/+1 counter on it, or the trigger was missed.

A quick Google search and a skim through some guidelines says that anything related to "may" and otherwise non-visible triggers, such as Akoum Battlesinger, would have to be acknowledged as there is a choice to be made. Which is to say that they can be missed.

[cdr]

Yes.

This can actually be answered without involving visible/non-visible confusion. There is no "may" involved with Prowess. Either Seeker of the Way gets +1/+1 and you Abzan Charm it, or your opponent tries to make it a missed trigger and you choose to put the trigger on the stack anyway.

Not sure what you meant by "tries to make it a missed trigger", but deliberately "forgetting" a trigger because it's advantageous to you = cheating, DQ.


A quick Google search and a skim through some guidelines says that anything related to "may" and otherwise non-visible triggers, such as Akoum Battlesinger, would have to be acknowledged as there is a choice to be made. Which is to say that they can be missed.

Yes, any trigger with "may" falls in the second category (has a choice). The trigger has to be acknowledged before you do something that requires the stack to be empty - move to the next step/phase, play a sorcery, play a land, etc.