What other stores could/would stream Legacy events?

[Teluin]

With SCG's decision to barely stream Legacy for (at least) the first half of 2015, I was wondering what other stores are actually capable of hosting and streaming decent Legacy events regularly. Obviously CFB is one of the first that comes to mind, but perhaps other retailers such as TCGplayer or MTGDeals are able to as well.

It also occured to me that a more likely scenario would be if one store didn't want/wasn't able to finance a tour, perhaps a few retailers could host local tournaments on a rotating schedule. If each store could get butts in seats for a monthly event, then maybe something could be organized stream-wise. Obviously this sort of thing would take a lot of voiced support from people for the big stores to consider doing, but do you think they'd even consider it?

[Teluin]

Bah, this probably should've been posted in the Community board.

[Sloshthedark]

MTGDeals used to stream around 2012, TCG invitational or whatever it was also had videocoverage, so it's possible

[negativeview]

It's tiny compared to SCG events, but one of my local stores streams Legacy on Wednesdays. Once I get done putting together my deck, I'll be potentially on the stream.

http://www.twitch.tv/themeadery/

[Koby]

MTGDeals used to stream around 2012, TCG invitational or whatever it was also had videocoverage, so it's possible

Unfortunately they stopped streaming and running lucritive events. All of them lately have been Store Credit events and are OK, but not great.

[Tammit67]

Tales Of Adventure I think is trying to run with the hole opened up. Caffrey's previous events had video coverage even if the last one I attended didn't.

It isn't a once a week or once a month thing, but it should help

[nedleeds]

Why? Unless it candrive people to actually buy cards from their website I can't imagine any benefit and I doubt anyone is going to frequent a particular store because they stream 4 rounds of legacy once a week.

[thecrav]

I'll have a more detailed post in the next day or so but the short answer is basically anyone.

To stream live paper magic, you need an okay camera capable of outputting live to a computer (<$100) and an internet connected computer, which most stores already have. There's already a couple stores that do stream but most of them lack the thing that really makes a good stream stand out - commentary. Commentary is a pain because you're likely more-than-doubling your equipment cost and you have to have one or more person who knows the format well enough to comment BUT ALSO have that person not play.

The number of stores streaming paper magic has been increasing recently. With the lack of streamed Sunday legacy, I expect many more stores will start streaming, especially legacy. It will be interesting to see which ones become most popular and how they handle the commentary issue.

One idea that's been floated locally is to record the matches then add commentary later. This allows everyone to play, cuts dead time to near-zero, and allows you to timeshift the stream to whatever will garner the most viewers / ad impressions.

[thecrav]

Why? Unless it candrive people to actually buy cards from their website I can't imagine any benefit and I doubt anyone is going to frequent a particular store because they stream 4 rounds of legacy once a week.

This is the problem most LGS will face. While the investment involved with streaming is relatively small, unless you've got a quite large selection singles available for purchase online, it's almost certainly not worth it.

[nedleeds]

This is the problem most LGS will face. While the investment involved with streaming is relatively small, unless you've got a quite large selection singles available for purchase online, it's almost certainly not worth it.

I would ask Atomic Empire, they stream their weekend quarterlies. It's a nice gesture, but I'm not sure how it makes them money. They have the benefit of being a big store with a dedicated room in the back for streaming ... I believe they do only the players voices and no commentary.

[Humphrey]

there are enough streaming people out there who make a living with that. you dont need to make streaming professional as scg to satisfy the watchers. streaming on twitch is for free, all you need is a camera (pretty cheap these days)
connect this with a link to your shop and give 5% discount and sell this followerprogram and it should be worth it

[Richard Cheese]

I'll have a more detailed post in the next day or so but the short answer is basically anyone.

To stream live paper magic, you need an okay camera capable of outputting live to a computer (<$100) and an internet connected computer, which most stores already have. There's already a couple stores that do stream but most of them lack the thing that really makes a good stream stand out - commentary. Commentary is a pain because you're likely more-than-doubling your equipment cost and you have to have one or more person who knows the format well enough to comment BUT ALSO have that person not play.

The number of stores streaming paper magic has been increasing recently. With the lack of streamed Sunday legacy, I expect many more stores will start streaming, especially legacy. It will be interesting to see which ones become most popular and how they handle the commentary issue.

One idea that's been floated locally is to record the matches then add commentary later. This allows everyone to play, cuts dead time to near-zero, and allows you to timeshift the stream to whatever will garner the most viewers / ad impressions.

Do people really like the commentary? Best I can tell, it's just a source of amusement and/or frustration around here. Doing commentary at an LGS just seems so awkward, since you basically don't want the commentator(s) within earshot of the participants.

Maybe a good compromise would be to have someone streaming their desktop, with video of the match in a window, and separate windows to show what's in each player's hand, maybe one for the board state?

[nedleeds]

there are enough streaming people out there who make a living with that. you dont need to make streaming professional as scg to satisfy the watchers. streaming on twitch is for free, all you need is a camera (pretty cheap these days)
connect this with a link to your shop and give 5% discount and sell this followerprogram and it should be worth it

You can also charge for your stream on Twitch no?

[cdr]

I see legacy tournaments streamed all the time. They just don't generally have expensive production values / commentators, or many viewers. Saito's store in Japan streams legacy at least once a month, usually interesting to watch.

[Scott]

I see legacy tournaments streamed all the time. They just don't generally have expensive production values / commentators, or many viewers. Saito's store in Japan streams legacy at least once a month, usually interesting to watch.

It's sort of a different topic than if another store will pick up the mantle of regularly broadcasting large Legacy tournaments, but I'd be into a jumble thread for people to post when any store is currently streaming a Legacy tournament, like Saito's store, or Tales of Adventure, or any of the tons that do it but not enough to warrant their own thread.

[tescrin]

This is the problem most LGS will face. While the investment involved with streaming is relatively small, unless you've got a quite large selection singles available for purchase online, it's almost certainly not worth it.

I don't think people are that un-inventive. If a store has $10 legacy and only $8 goes into the pot from each person, it's an easy $40 or so that costed them nothing other than keeping their doors open. If the people buy drinks, sleeves, deck boxes, cards, or anything else; so much the better (and they will.)

The real point is whether that $40 is any better than what they could be doing that night; which may be "no" depending on how active the standard/drafting scene is there.

That said, there is money in streaming (if meagre) that if you can get enough viewers you could easily build a business model out of "milking" your local players just to play; akin to college sports. The players want to play and have recognition, the people broadcast it and make money because it's popular.

[negativeview]

Do people really like the commentary? Best I can tell, it's just a source of amusement and/or frustration around here. Doing commentary at an LGS just seems so awkward, since you basically don't want the commentator(s) within earshot of the participants.

Maybe a good compromise would be to have someone streaming their desktop, with video of the match in a window, and separate windows to show what's in each player's hand, maybe one for the board state?

Personally I'm torn. When you see the serious players who say nothing all match and just make hand gestures to pass priority, then commentary makes sense.

But sometimes we see the players chatting and laughing and smiling and I find myself wanting to hear the table noise. The problem is that an organizer doesn't know before hand which kind of personalities they are going to be.

[Teluin]

Why? Unless it candrive people to actually buy cards from their website I can't imagine any benefit and I doubt anyone is going to frequent a particular store because they stream 4 rounds of legacy once a week.

I think it could act as a sort of 'free' advertising for the business, as well as attract players who want to compete on camera or just enjoy the tournament format. I mentioned big businesses because them showing support for the format could get people to buy from them because of it, not to mention that their the ones who can host larger tournaments enough to be even somewhat relevant.

[nedleeds]

I don't think people are that un-inventive. If a store has $10 legacy and only $8 goes into the pot from each person, it's an easy $40 or so that costed them nothing other than keeping their doors open. If the people buy drinks, sleeves, deck boxes, cards, or anything else; so much the better (and they will.)

Almost any store will sanction any 8+ person event it's patrons ask them to sanction and if players are willing to make up the prize support there's almost no downside. But no event will grow without the store owner promoting it, pushing it, and in the beginning maybe going in the hole a little to grow the attendance. The primary Legacy supporter for almost 6-8 years finally cancelled its weekly Wednesday legacy about a month ago because attendance was hardly 8 people. Their model was $5 entry, $100 store credit (with an extensive stock of almost anything). They also tried free $100 credit. Over the past 3 years attendance has gone from (roughly), 30-35, 20-25, 10-15, to less than 8.

If all the store does is say, "We'll Sanction It and Pay Back in Credit" - I don't anticipate much interest. Maybe streaming would draw a few more people, but how many people really have a hard on to have the top of their heads shown on a stream garnering 50-200 anonymous viewers?

Legacy locally has pretty much died, IMO because the format is stale as a 5 day old fart. Some people have sold out but more people have bought in since. Tons of people stay home with their legacy stuff and just aren't that interested in the format.

Or maybe I just pissed that many people off ...

[tescrin]

Legacy locally has pretty much died, IMO because the format is stale as a 5 day old fart. Some people have sold out but more people have bought in since. Tons of people stay home with their legacy stuff and just aren't that interested in the format.

Here it seems to be slowly growing; though there's only the one shop that does it regularly (which is helping to make it focused and draw people in.)
Even in the cold of the fall we're regularly firing with a good 12-20 people; and not always the same faces (about 75% are regulars each time I'd say.)

Often there will be a new burn/dredge guy popping in now and then; there are more people showing up before local Opens/IQs or the GP for practice.


That said, I think Legacy is tough and expensive; which grinds a lot of people out. It makes you feel stupid and eventually you succumb to "well I can make all my money back +25%. May as well get out now." It's also a format targeted (really) at 20-30 year olds who start having kids, buying houses, etc.. and then lose the ability to continue participating. One of our locals (our only true Miracles player week-in week-out) is having a kid soon and he probably will be lucky to come once/twice a month.

The format seems stale to a vet who does well I'm sure; but when you look at the GP's top 16 you pretty much have to take that opinion and stuff it. [Unless you mean innovation; sure; a lot of lists are relatively static; but the sheer diversity of the format still exists.] I think you're just too knowledgeable of the format and nostalgic for that "I've never seen/fought this!" feeling. Eventually you've seen every strategy and know every card in their hand and if you still want that excitement you have to wait for a release to shake things up or you have to enjoy the mastership you've achieved.

I think it's more that even when you see a new list; you can guess 90% of it via the colors it runs and the first 3 spells it casts (or if you get to look at their hand.) Since you know a white creature deck is supposed to have SFM; it's not interesting. Since you know a green list will have Goyf (or maybe KotR) or something that's just worse; the feeling of surprise is gone.

[thecrav]

there are enough streaming people out there who make a living with that. you dont need to make streaming professional as scg to satisfy the watchers. streaming on twitch is for free, all you need is a camera (pretty cheap these days)
connect this with a link to your shop and give 5% discount and sell this followerprogram and it should be worth it

You're saying it's free and then in the same sentence saying that it's not.

My argument is that the discount you're talking about won't be enough for most stores. At least in my experience, a lot of stores don't have the kind of singles inventory to make such a thing worth it. You have to:

1. Convert the viewer into a potential customer
2. Have the cards they want (not a cheap or easy task when you're talking about eternal formats)
3. Have them at prices that make it worth ordering from you.

Again, this may just be my experience at stores with relatively small inventory.


Do people really like the commentary?

I like commentary because

* If I'm watching Magic as my primary activity, I'm not going to be captivated if every play is followed by 15+ seconds of absolutely nothing. Commentary kills the dead air and helps keep me interested.
* If I'm watching Magic and doing something else, the commentators provide play by play so I can still know what's happening without switching focus.


You can also charge for your stream on Twitch no?
AFAIK, you can't charge but you can put up donate links and if you average enough viewers, people can "subscribe." A portion of that subscription goes to the streamer. I don't stream enough to know exactly how this works though.


I think it could act as a sort of 'free' advertising for the business, as well as attract players who want to compete on camera or just enjoy the tournament format. I mentioned big businesses because them showing support for the format could get people to buy from them because of it, not to mention that their the ones who can host larger tournaments enough to be even somewhat relevant.

I hadn't thought of the appeal of trying to get on camera but I disagree with the advertising portion. My reasoning is that, based on stores that currently stream, they're not getting that many viewers. The odds of one of those viewers being within driving range to go play is pretty low. (Though I recognize that the lack of SCG streaming may also change the streaming numbers making my point void)

Now if they're doing something like running a series, that's different. Maybe I'll decide to take a 3 day weekend to $city and stop by to win that lotus they're giving away.

[TheArchitect]

Jupiter games use to stream back they did the NELC. I know KDM (Eli Kassis, and friends) want to stream their quarterly 40 duals events but the current venue, a Christian men's club, apparently has not heard of the internet yet. I bet some of the other local stores near me like Mythic Games or Tales of Adventure could stream their big legacy events with a little more of a push.

[Megadeus]

Here it seems to be slowly growing; though there's only the one shop that does it regularly (which is helping to make it focused and draw people in.)
Even in the cold of the fall we're regularly firing with a good 12-20 people; and not always the same faces (about 75% are regulars each time I'd say.)

Often there will be a new burn/dredge guy popping in now and then; there are more people showing up before local Opens/IQs or the GP for practice.


That said, I think Legacy is tough and expensive; which grinds a lot of people out. It makes you feel stupid and eventually you succumb to "well I can make all my money back +25%. May as well get out now." It's also a format targeted (really) at 20-30 year olds who start having kids, buying houses, etc.. and then lose the ability to continue participating. One of our locals (our only true Miracles player week-in week-out) is having a kid soon and he probably will be lucky to come once/twice a month.

The format seems stale to a vet who does well I'm sure; but when you look at the GP's top 16 you pretty much have to take that opinion and stuff it. [Unless you mean innovation; sure; a lot of lists are relatively static; but the sheer diversity of the format still exists.] I think you're just too knowledgeable of the format and nostalgic for that "I've never seen/fought this!" feeling. Eventually you've seen every strategy and know every card in their hand and if you still want that excitement you have to wait for a release to shake things up or you have to enjoy the mastership you've achieved.

I think it's more that even when you see a new list; you can guess 90% of it via the colors it runs and the first 3 spells it casts (or if you get to look at their hand.) Since you know a white creature deck is supposed to have SFM; it's not interesting. Since you know a green list will have Goyf (or maybe KotR) or something that's just worse; the feeling of surprise is gone.
basically your last two paragraphs. I mean I haven't played near as long as a lot of people on here but I know the feeling just because, based on my opponents very first turn, I could probably guess 65/75 of his cards or so.

[HammerAndSickled]

My opinion on commentary is that bad commentary is worse than no commentary, but good commentary is priceless. I hate the SCG syndrome of the commentators not knowing what they're talking about, misunderstanding rules or the game state or anything like that, in addition to just bad jokes and dickriding their stable of players. Or worse is just narrating the gameplay without any added content or original thought. Good commentary is insightful, teaches players about what matters in matchups and how to play cards strategically, points out several possible options and explains their outcomes, while still being fun and accessible. It's cool to tell stories and relate bits of personal information or Magic lore but the ultimate goal should be discussing the strategy.

[Teluin]

I hadn't thought of the appeal of trying to get on camera but I disagree with the advertising portion. My reasoning is that, based on stores that currently stream, they're not getting that many viewers. The odds of one of those viewers being within driving range to go play is pretty low. (Though I recognize that the lack of SCG streaming may also change the streaming numbers making my point void)

Now if they're doing something like running a series, that's different. Maybe I'll decide to take a 3 day weekend to $city and stop by to win that lotus they're giving away.

By free advertising, I just meant bringing some notoriety to the store itself. I know I'm a lot more likely to buy from a retailer online if they're promoting Legacy. Then again, they could also do one of those news banners at the bottom ala CFB used to do on their Magic TV shows.

To me, the ideal solution would be 4-5 big stores parcitipating; one in each corner of the US - North East US (there's several cities with stores that could do this), Atlanta, California and Seattle areas for example. The stores would rotate streaming 1 weekend a month on the same website and could even cross promote. That way, the stores don't have to pay for tours or even renting out venues but attract large-ish crowds. Legacy players in those areas could come to the big tournaments, it would provide streaming each weekend for the format/vendors, and no one store would have to worry about 'burning out' the people in their area from Legacy events. It's just an idea.