Would legacy benefit from a restricted list?

[gainsay]

A restricted list running parallel to the banned list. What cards, currently banned or unbanned, could this theoretically make senses for?

[cab0747]

Island...

in all seriousness, I disagree with this idea. Legacy is fun for me (and I would imagine many other who play) because of the ability to play many powerful cards. Neutering the format, unless it has goes completely off the rails, does not seem like a good idea.

May I ask what sparked this?

[Lemnear]

A restricted list running parallel to the banned list. What cards, currently banned or unbanned, could this theoretically make senses for?

Doesn't make sense in the slightest. Vintage is defined by a Restricted list. Legacy is defined by a ban-list. Yu-Gi-Oh has both. pick one

[gainsay]

Island...

in all seriousness, I disagree with this idea. Legacy is fun for me (and I would imagine many other who play) because of the ability to play many powerful cards. Neutering the format, unless it has goes completely off the rails, does not seem like a good idea.

May I ask what sparked this?

But cards could be taken off the banned list and moved to the restricted list.

[Lemnear]

But cards could be taken off the banned list and moved to the restricted list.

... and more critical cards can become restricted like Brainstorm, LED or S&T. This is a two-edged sword.

[iGrok]

... and more critical cards can become restricted like Brainstorm, LED or S&T. This is a two-edged sword.

"I don't know why people say a double-edged sword is bad. It's a sword. With two edges."
—Kamahl, pit fighter

[Megadeus]

"I don't know why people say a double-edged sword is bad. It's a sword. With two edges."
—Kamahl, pit fighter

I'm glad I'm not the only one who had this exact quote in mind

[thecrav]

A restricted list running parallel to the banned list. What cards, currently banned or unbanned, could this theoretically make senses for?

Skipping the argument over whether we should or not, here's my restricted list:

Sensei's Divining Top - Reduce the dominance and associated time problems from Miracles while allowing non-Miracles decks to have the card selection if they want it
Delver of Secrets - This card is stupid. Remove it from most of the decks playing it and you'll find something to fill the void.
Mental Misstep - Much less scary when you can't play four of them.

If you went with these, you'd probably need to do something to neuter Elves. I'm not sure what that would be since neither Natural Order nor Glimpse are required for the deck to go off. Maybe Gaea's Cradle?

I also think it would be a interesting idea to restrict land bases such as restricting the fetches or ABUR duals.

[Lord Seth]

But cards could be taken off the banned list and moved to the restricted list.To what benefit? All this does is simply turn the game into more of a "did you draw your 1-of bomb?" (as well as make tutors even more powerful) That's why they got rid of restricted lists for everything besides Vintage in the first place. And the only reason Vintage has a restricted list is because the point of the format is to be a place where you can play cards no matter how broken they are, and the fact there are so many restricted bombs makes it all even out.

And more to the point, if you want to play with broken cards but have them be restricted, why not just play Vintage? Why try to force Legacy into being Vintage when you have Vintage?

[apple713]

A restricted list running parallel to the banned list. What cards, currently banned or unbanned, could this theoretically make senses for?

it would never work because legacy is a format that more or less revolves around consistency. Cards that would end up on the restricted list are cards like brainstorm, wasteland, S&T, at least i would guess that's what you're trying to accomplish. Changes like this would effectively kill off decks currently in the format and render it just an unfun version of vintage. The reason cards are not restricted in legacy is because if they were so powerful that they deserve to be restricted, we just ban them...and you end up with 2 formats.

lets say that they do restrict cards in legacy. at some point modern will become a more powerful / attractive format.

[from Cairo]

I don't think Legacy would benefit, it would just make the format Vintage-lite. Restricting cards would just increase the luck factor of having said overpowered cards and further encourage players to play 12-16 cantrip shells to dig for the more powerful options.

[davelin]

To what benefit? All this does is simply turn the game into more of a "did you draw your 1-of bomb?" (as well as make tutors even more powerful) That's why they got rid of restricted lists for everything besides Vintage in the first place. And the only reason Vintage has a restricted list is because the point of the format is to be a place where you can play cards no matter how broken they are, and the fact there are so many restricted bombs makes it all even out.

And more to the point, if you want to play with broken cards but have them be restricted, why not just play Vintage? Why try to force Legacy into being Vintage when you have Vintage?

+1

[FoolofaTook]

A restricted list won't fix anything. It'll just turn Legacy into a less powerful version of the best cards lists Vintage format fiasco.

Legacy was split from Vintage specifically with the notion that if cards became too prevalent at the top those cards would be banned and no cards would ever be restricted for power. WotC has fallen down on the job with Brainstorm and Force of Will. They've fallen down because a substantial number of players want to play with those cards and believe the game would be less enjoyable without them.

How this differs from the Survival of the Fittest situation is unclear to me, however I think it's pretty clear there's an institutional bias at the DCI towards highly interactive lists which preserve the appearance of the diminution of luck in the competition. Again, how this differs from the Survival of the Fittest situation is unclear to me...

[Gheizen64]

Restricted lists sucks because of the decreased consistency and increased swingyness of games, it's a game of "who drew this first?". It's 1994/95 sol ring format all over again (here in italy beta-unlimited didn't exist so the first format was effectively revised constructed, and Sol Ring was restricted and still dumb as shit).

[Finn]

Would-legacy-benefit-form-a-restricted-list?
No

[Sloshthedark]

A restricted list running parallel to the banned list. What cards, currently banned or unbanned, could this theoretically make senses for?

would make things very random... and after tutors get restricted too

[warfordium]

what if the restricted list was *exactly* one card: Mystical Tutor? (what, a man can dream!)

[FoolofaTook]

what if the restricted list was *exactly* one card: Mystical Tutor? (what, a man can dream!)

The Mystical Tutor ban is a perfect example of how you can ban a very strong card and not kill the archetypes that depend on it the most. ANT is still around and it found other solutions once tutor was gone.

If Brainstorm goes people will figure out good replacements for it depending on what their list wants to do. They won't have the raw power of Brainstorm but they're still going to be able to find what they need to make the lists work.

[wcm8]

A restricted list just adds unwanted variance to the game. The person who draws more of their broken cards is more likely to win against the person who doesn't draw as many copies. When everyone can play 4x copies of a particular card, variance is still present but it doesn't feel like as much of a lucky occurrence to have drawn it.

So no. It would not benefit.

[Tylert]

No

In addition to that great comment that summurize greatly the answer, I would add the following: No.

[Vicar in a tutu]

This thread is yet another display of more people becomming uneasy with the power of blue in legacy. Brainstorm is the obvious culprit, but Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time pushed blue even further over the top (certainly with the printing of Innistrad, blue got the best aggro-creature and then with Commander 2013 one of the best midrange creatures). I wish Wizards had printed real hate cards against card draw (like they did against a lot of unfair decks with Containment Priest), Spirit of the Labyrinth should have been 2/1 flash.

Now I just hope Wizards prints strong nonblue cards that you can't just jam into brainstorm-decks. This might include powerful cards for Goblin and Enchantress. Here are a few examples:

Eidolon of Rapture :wg::wg:
Enchantment Creature - Spirit
Exalted
Enchantment spells you cast cost 1 less to cast.
1/2

Goblin Kinsight:r:
Tribal Sorcery - Goblin
You may tap a Goblin you control instead of paying Goblin Insight's mana cost.
Exile the top three cards of your library. Until end of turn, you may play Goblin cards exiled this way.

Sentinel of Svartwald:b:
Creature - Zombie Giant Wall
Defender
Whenever a player draws a card, that player loses 1 life.
0/3

[Lemnear]

This thread is yet another display of more people becomming uneasy with the power of blue in legacy.

No, this and the other threads we had the last 3 weeks are just a testament that people don't understand that there is already a B&R thread and that their personal opinion doesn't deserve a sperate thread.

Those threads are pretty funny once you realize that the complaints are in fact not about format health, diversity or fun, but root on a bizaar image of color represenration and/or personal preferances

[Fatal]

I misses the poll - it should stay opened to see the results on higher spread of votes.

[nevilshute]

Off the top of my head I don't see the 'restricted list' concept being particularily beneficial in a Legacy context. The restricted list was bourne out of a need by some insanely powerful cards. Case in point being the Power Nine but also cards like the tutors, Sol Ring and others. I don't think the concept is transferable in a 1:1 way.

So, we restrict Brainstorm, Ponder, Lion's Eye Diamond, Entomb, Show and Tell, Natural Order? Stuff like that?

Restricting most cards in legacy, I think, would be tantamount to just banning them, as the cards themselves are not powerful enough to make up for the loss of consistently drawing them (I know, Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage). Having one Natural Order? And no realistic way to tutor for it? What deck would play it? The same for Show and Tell. The same for LED probably.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, that while having a restricted list works in Vintage, I think it only does because of the absence of a banned list the therefore extreme power level of the card pool altogether. Yes you can only play with one Brainstorm, but you also get to play with one of: Ancestral Recall, Mystical Tutor, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor etc. Not to mention unrestricted stuff like Gush.

[Higgs]

We don't have tutors so restricting would be the same as banning imo

[Sloshthedark]

Off the top of my head I don't see the 'restricted list' concept being particularily beneficial in a Legacy context. The restricted list was bourne out of a need by some insanely powerful cards. Case in point being the Power Nine but also cards like the tutors, Sol Ring and others. I don't think the concept is transferable in a 1:1 way.

So, we restrict Brainstorm, Ponder, Lion's Eye Diamond, Entomb, Show and Tell, Natural Order? Stuff like that?

Restricting most cards in legacy, I think, would be tantamount to just banning them, as the cards themselves are not powerful enough to make up for the loss of consistently drawing them (I know, Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage). Having one Natural Order? And no realistic way to tutor for it? What deck would play it? The same for Show and Tell. The same for LED probably.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, that while having a restricted list works in Vintage, I think it only does because of the absence of a banned list the therefore extreme power level of the card pool altogether. Yes you can only play with one Brainstorm, but you also get to play with one of: Ancestral Recall, Mystical Tutor, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor etc. Not to mention unrestricted stuff like Gush.

the problem is restriction run into more restriction and less diversity - the day you restrict BS -> all deck play 4 SDT 1 BS - restrict -> 1SDT, 1BS, 4x Enlightened tutor (for UWx) ... restrict E tutor -> restrict ... at this point a lot of things like Bargain, Mystical and others are also "only" restricted and we end up with bizzare highlander Storm/reanimator Combo in vein of Tin Fins and Miracle/landstill style control which share the same mandatory "evil cantrip-tutor cartell" vs happy playsets of creatures... and here we have a poor crippled brother of vintage

[Fatal]

It's not logical:
How does changing decks to run more different cards makes them - less diversity ?

[Vicar in a tutu]

No, this and the other threads we had the last 3 weeks are just a testament that people don't understand that there is already a B&R thread and that their personal opinion doesn't deserve a sperate thread.

Those threads are pretty funny once you realize that the complaints are in fact not about format health, diversity or fun, but root on a bizaar image of color represenration and/or personal preferances
People are frustrated, so they start to vent. Much of this has "boiled over" and started pouring out of the B&R-thread. This frustration is made worse by Wizards' neglect to unban cards that most people feel would be perfectly safe, like Black Vise. And then: Bam, another release with overpowered blue cards. Also, it's no use trying to pretend that a person's personal magic-preferances isn't important to that person's stand in the B&R-debate. Wizards is fine with legacy being dominated by blue, that springs out not only of many personal preferences of Wizard-employees, but also of many players elsewhere. I personally prefer unbannings, as well as agressive new printings that target the overpowered draw-cards.

[Lemnear]

People are frustrated, so they start to vent. Much of this has "boiled over" and started pouring out of the B&R-thread. This frustration is made worse by Wizards' neglect to unban cards that most people feel would be perfectly safe, like Black Vise. And then: Bam, another release with overpowered blue cards. Also, it's no use trying to pretend that a person's personal magic-preferances isn't important to that person's stand in the B&R-debate. Wizards is fine with legacy being dominated by blue, that springs out not only of many personal preferences of Wizard-employees, but also of many players elsewhere. I personally prefer unbannings, as well as agressive new printings that target the overpowered draw-cards.

I'm not here to debate about cards like Vise for obvious reasons. If People want WotC to fix the problem, they should put some work into a balances and founded essay and send it to Aaron. Opening the 4th thread about bannings within a week here on this small microuniverse of Legacy has no effect and is even less relevant if the arguments are that bad.

Or have you heared someone ever complain that all non-dredge Vintage decks start with SoLoCryMoxen and this stifles diversity?

I'm aware of peoples complaining about blue and the B&R management since my re-entry of the format in 2005

[Vicar in a tutu]

I'm not here to debate about cards like Vise for obvious reasons. If People want WotC to fix the problem, they should put some work into a balances and founded essay and send it to Aaron. Opening the 4th thread about bannings within a week here on this small microuniverse of Legacy has no effect and is even less relevant if the arguments are that bad.

Or have you heared someone ever complain that all non-dredge Vintage decks start with SoLoCryMoxen and this stifles diversity?

I'm aware of peoples complaining about blue and the B&R management since my re-entry of the format in 2005
I agree that the discussion of this should be constrained to the B&R-thread (strangely enough, I'm still posting here on this thread). I hope Wizards prints strong new draw-engines in colours other than blue in the near(ish) future.