[Article]Eternal Europe: Yet Another Ten To Play

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Well, I got to the cards on my mind threshold again :)

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29875_Ten-Cards-You-Should-Be-Playing-In-Legacy.html

[nedleeds]

What are some cards to play to ensure I always have these cards in hand when they are right for the current game state? Any thoughts on how I could maybe exchange them for other cards if they currently do nothing? How can I see more cards in my deck to make sure I can find these cards when I need them.

Thanks.

[Aggro_zombies]

What are some cards to play to ensure I always have these cards in hand when they are right for the current game state? Any thoughts on how I could maybe exchange them for other cards if they currently do nothing? How can I see more cards in my deck to make sure I can find these cards when I need them.

Thanks.
Please do not turn this thread into a rant about Brainstorm with the first fucking comment.

[amalek0]

Please do not turn this thread into a rant about Brainstorm with the first fucking comment.

Calm down... I'm sure he was only referencing Gamble, Intuition, Trinket mage, Tolaria West, Enlightened Tutor, and Green Sun's Zenith.

Incidentally, I really like life from the loam, and playing that works best when you have Intuition and Enlightened tutor in your deck. Alongside some wastelands, explorations, thespian's stages, and dark depths.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

What do you look for with E-Tutor in LftL deck?

[Hopo]

What do you look for with E-Tutor in LftL deck?
What an odd question as it could be absolutely anything from EE to Spirit of the labyrinth, but I would go with any artifact or enchantment that you included in your deck that suits your immediate in-game needs the best.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

What an odd question as it could be absolutely anything from EE to Spirit of the labyrinth, but I would go with any artifact or enchantment that you included in your deck that suits your immediate in-game needs the best.

Thanks for sharing the tech. I can has reading, though, so it's not exactly surprising what does the ET do, I was interested what is the usual package.
Flames removed. -zilla

[Hopo]

I was interested what is the usual package.
What "usual package" do you mean? It's not like "LftL decks" are some homogenous carbon copies of each other. Try Seismic Assault, Exploration or Manabond for starters and continue with any silver bullets imaginable.

Flames removed. -zilla

[HSCK]

I thought the closing statement was the best part, "there are holes to exploit in the format" vs. the narrative of about 6 posters here which is, "Brainstorm is killing the format! Ignore strategic diversity and attendance!"

[amalek0]

First off, the e-tutor splash in loam decks is usually just in 4 color loam or as a splash in RUG lands, RG lands rarely makes the splash for e-tutor when they already have gamble.

My usual targets are pithing needle, crucible of worlds, ensnaring bridge, (mox diamond, exploration), chalice of the void, trinisphere. Any/all of those are usually options to find with e-tutor out of the board. Also ethersworn canonist is fairly common in the white splash.

Also, HOPO, while I approve of baiting the trolls, I'm OK with answering legitimate questions from them. BDP isn't *always* a source of nonsense, he can be quite intelligent when he forgets about hating brainstorm while writing his posts.

[Pastorofmuppets]

ScOoze seems like it could have some trouble playing nice with your DRS, depending on what deck you're up against. Personally, I just want to see people start running Root Maze or Tsabo's Web. I'd also love to see some mention of the Snapcaster/Surgical Extraction lists that have been popping up around the New Deck forums.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

First off, the e-tutor splash in loam decks is usually just in 4 color loam or as a splash in RUG lands, RG lands rarely makes the splash for e-tutor when they already have gamble.

My usual targets are pithing needle, crucible of worlds, ensnaring bridge, (mox diamond, exploration), chalice of the void, trinisphere. Any/all of those are usually options to find with e-tutor out of the board. Also ethersworn canonist is fairly common in the white splash.

Also, HOPO, while I approve of baiting the trolls, I'm OK with answering legitimate questions from them. BDP isn't *always* a source of nonsense, he can be quite intelligent when he forgets about hating brainstorm while writing his posts.
Thanks, that's what interested me.

I tried the UGB Intuition Loam in MWS some time ago, and I played Aggro Loam regularly, although long before KotR and stuff changed the deck.

I wanted to ask if you find it reasonable to splash white into a few builds and I also wanted to ask about your opinion on some cards, but then I reread the rest of your post and kinda lost any interest in further discussion.

Btw, I don't hate Brainstorm.
I'm ambivalent about Brainstorm, because I acknowledge its extreme power, yet I'm not sure it should be banned already.

[TsumiBand]

If I grok it correctly, between this article and the other one, Karsten makes the argument which roughly translates to "the cards you guys sleeve up are the ones that define the metagame. Here are a bunch of cards you could be playing instead of parroting decklists someone told you were Tier 1."

In a sense, there's a logic to that - if you build to hate out the cursed Blue lists, then they can't flourish. If you can do it while also rocking a sweet rogue deck, you're officially not Part Of The Problem.

It may very well be the case that there's a confirmation bias at play when it comes to how high on the totem pole BS and friends actually are. If the meta is lousy with Thomas the Tank Engine decks, you'll be sadmad when you eventually get 1L even if you had 3W, and you'll say "ah! there it is. that busted-ass Blue engine running roughshod over me again". Even though it's your first loss of the day and yes, your other opponents had their Blue splash decks on the table and you won against them, your loss means more to you than your win, and you'll incorrectly point to the match in a vacuum instead of going, "oh, sure I lost to a deck playing Brainstorm. 7 of 10 decks apparently have 4 Brainstorm in them these days."

I mean it's possible that there's a great deck just sitting lying in wait and nobody is playing it, right -- we could all be delusional and operating under a false premise about some ancient card from Prophesy that smears the windshield of every Brainstorm parrot, but we don't actually see the deck because cards tend to be subjectively strong or weak, not objectively. And the more time people spend falling in line and pissing into the wind, the longer it'll take for us to collectively "discover" the deck. Like monkeys trying to write a novel or whatever, only with Magic cards. (maybe that's a bit more like the flawed '747 in a junkyard tornado' argument, but I'm trying to see the other side of the coin here)

Now, if it is true that cards are better measured by their subjective power (power in a metagame, power in their deck, power in any given deck, and so on) as opposed to some objective measure that may or may not exist (as if it were always better to draw three cards than to deal three damage -- which 40/20 list wins first, Lightning Bolt/Mountain or Brainstorm/Island) then it doesn't matter whether a metagame is in an "artificial" state or not - it's whatever it is, it's just "the decks people played that day".

[Ace/Homebrew]

If I grok it correctly...

I believe you either grok something or you don't. I don't think you can grok something "correctly".
By definition - if you grok it, you do so correctly...

Either way, you wrote a perfectly cromulent post. :wink:

[H]

I am not disagreeing with the idea, but the opposite side of this "hidden technology" is that it can possibly exist or not exist. I don't think either of these things is a given. There may well be some hidden deck out there that can out-preform Brainstorm based decks in the long-term, but I think the odds are against that.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Hmm . . . I like Boseiju . . . particularly in Maverick (Hello Thalia! Thanks for helping Boseiju get my noncreature nonlands through ^_^) and Nic Fit (similar, except probably a better fit due to typically having less creatures and more noncreatures).

[Richard Cheese]

Hmm . . . I like Boseiju . . . particularly in Maverick (Hello Thalia! Thanks for helping Boseiju get my noncreature nonlands through ^_^) and Nic Fit (similar, except probably a better fit due to typically having less creatures and more noncreatures).

Pretty sure Boseiju has no interaction with Thalia. Her effect doesn't actually counter anything, just changes the total cost. It can push things through Nether Void though.

[Megadeus]

What "usual package" do you mean? It's not like "LftL decks" are some homogenous carbon copies of each other. Try Seismic Assault, Exploration or Manabond for starters and continue with any silver bullets imaginable.

Flames removed. -zilla

I played a Junk loam deck with tutors for Exploration, crucible, EE, and even a spicy Smokestack. Needless to say I didn't win much with that deck

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Pretty sure Boseiju has no interaction with Thalia. Her effect doesn't actually counter anything, just changes the total cost. It can push things through Nether Void though.

That's the thing: she makes the total cost one colorless more, and Boseiju provides only one colorless mana. Thus, in exchange for making your own spells more expensive, they can't be countered unless you didn't use Boseiju to pay for it.

[TsumiBand]

Pretty sure Boseiju has no interaction with Thalia. Her effect doesn't actually counter anything, just changes the total cost. It can push things through Nether Void though.

Works okay with Blood Funnel. vOv

[FoolofaTook]

I am not disagreeing with the idea, but the opposite side of this "hidden technology" is that it can possibly exist or not exist. I don't think either of these things is a given. There may well be some hidden deck out there that can out-preform Brainstorm based decks in the long-term, but I think the odds are against that.

I think there already is one archetype out there that is nearly as consistent as the blue shell and loses less often. That's Lands, especially the Punishing Fires version. The problem is that while it loses less often than the best lists in the blue shell it also wins less often because it goes to time so often in anything resembling a control mirror. It's also really hard to play and frequently costs you games due to play errors that would be easily correctable in a good blue shell list.

The final strike against it is that when the opponent has graveyard hate that they can stick through a fair amount of removal you're dead in the water so when it runs into a blue shell with GY hate and counters it will often lose the untimed wars at the end of the tourney. This assuming that it managed to avoid an accidental draw early on and that the guy playing it doesn't make a crucial error that he can't recover from against an opponent who can easily find the win after that point.

All of these factors combine to make Lands one of the least played archetypes in Legacy. It's slow, it demands a lot of attention and when you screw up you're toast most of the time. And of course a good list opposite you will find the GY hate to ruin you at the end.

Oh, and Show and Tell. Most people hate playing a list that has a virtual DoA matchup and the only thing Lands can handle out of Show and Tell is Emrakul. Everything else is a nightmare.

[sco0ter]

What are the reasons for "an all-time low of a number of cards that have dominated much of the format since Return to Ravnica - Hymn to Tourach, Deathrite Shaman, Abrupt Decay, and Wasteland foremost among them."?

I don't follow the format much anymore, but especially a decline of Wasteland made me wonder.:confused:

[Quasim0ff]

What are the reasons for "an all-time low of a number of cards that have dominated much of the format since Return to Ravnica - Hymn to Tourach, Deathrite Shaman, Abrupt Decay, and Wasteland foremost among them."?

I don't follow the format much anymore, but especially a decline of Wasteland made me wonder.:confused:

Because treasure cruise speeds the format up, and makes missing lands very much non-existing, as people play a ton of cantrips, to make their TC better.

Also, the best delver deck is a two-color deck now, rather than a three-color one.

[H]

I think there already is one archetype out there that is nearly as consistent as the blue shell and loses less often. That's Lands, especially the Punishing Fires version. The problem is that while it loses less often than the best lists in the blue shell it also wins less often because it goes to time so often in anything resembling a control mirror. It's also really hard to play and frequently costs you games due to play errors that would be easily correctable in a good blue shell list.

The final strike against it is that when the opponent has graveyard hate that they can stick through a fair amount of removal you're dead in the water so when it runs into a blue shell with GY hate and counters it will often lose the untimed wars at the end of the tourney. This assuming that it managed to avoid an accidental draw early on and that the guy playing it doesn't make a crucial error that he can't recover from against an opponent who can easily find the win after that point.

All of these factors combine to make Lands one of the least played archetypes in Legacy. It's slow, it demands a lot of attention and when you screw up you're toast most of the time. And of course a good list opposite you will find the GY hate to ruin you at the end.

Oh, and Show and Tell. Most people hate playing a list that has a virtual DoA matchup and the only thing Lands can handle out of Show and Tell is Emrakul. Everything else is a nightmare.

Well, I have played against Lands an inordinate amount of times, due to our local group of about 15-20 players having 4 people who often (usually at least once a month) play Lands. It's not uncommon for me to play a FNM and face lands in two of four rounds or even three out of five. Hell, even I can build Lands, but I choose not to (I have only liked running Loam in a dedicated Blue shell).

I agree that the deck is pretty unforgiving of errors, although draws where it get Loam unmolested generally make the deck smooth out. However, the lack of Brainstorm or any other consistency engine means that Lands can often have some really weird and just plain bad draws. Add to it the general softness to grave-hate and I really don't think Lands is even on the same plane as Blue cantrips in the consistency area.

Most Lands builds are also soft to Burn, since Price is often game over after a few hits from Guides/Bolts/whatever. Lands is a fine deck, but it has far more holes in it than almost any Blue deck.

[amalek0]

zuran orb and glacial chasm provide PLENTY of game against burn.