Proxy Vintage Event Stopped

[alastair]

A local games store and a few players recently put the effort in to set up a 10-card proxy non-sanctioned Vintage competition. The first two events were well received, the community was positive with plans for a regular quarterly programme, and then the series was cancelled. I understand the cancellation was at the request of WoTC, ‘proxy events are not permitted’.

For years I’ve seen numerous proxy Vintage events advertised, including dozens on this site, on Facebook, and other forums. I thought this was pretty much the norm, put on by big established shops and TO's….….. anyway, to the point…….

Have any TO’s been requested by WoTC to stop proxy Vintage events?

Is this a new policy, is there a notice / article about stopping proxy Vintage?

Is this unique to the UK, does WoTC policy vary country to country?

[Higgs]

Sounds like Wizards being dcks and picking on a single store as stores in the States organize and advertize proxy Vintage events without repercussions. When did this happen and which store?

[Teluin]

The only reason I can think they would do this is they were sanctioned events using proxies. Otherwise, WotC has always been fine with the use of Vintage proxy events. You should talk to the organizers/store and see if that's the case.

[alastair]

Sounds like Wizards being dcks and picking on a single store as stores in the States organize and advertize proxy Vintage events without repercussions. When did this happen and which store?

It was a few months ago now, the third event was planned for January. The stores is a local games store, does a lot of good work promoting MTG and the community in general.


The only reason I can think they would do this is they were sanctioned events using proxies. Otherwise, WotC has always been fine with the use of Vintage proxy events. You should talk to the organizers/store and see if that's the case.

It was un-sanctioned. I suspect the majority had fully powered proxy-free decks ironically. Its just a useful stepping stone of allowing a small number of proxies to encourage people to join up.

[Teluin]

It was un-sanctioned. I suspect the majority had fully powered proxy-free decks ironically. Its just a useful stepping stone of allowing a small number of proxies to encourage people to join up.

I don't think WotC can actually stop non-sanctioned events..

[Higgs]

Ok, I know of one other store in the UK who shared a similar fate for casual, unsanctioned proxy Vintage being played alongside sanctioned, no-proxy Standard/Modern.

Wizards can quite convincingly shut down non-sanctioned events btw by threatening the store with banning them from running any sanctioned events in the future, and they have. Try mentioning the "p-word" to the major stores in London and see how they'll react. I don't know why this happens in the UK though and not anywhere else.

[alastair]

I don't think WotC can actually stop non-sanctioned events..

That's true. But if a Store is reliant upon MTG for a proportion of its business, I suspect WoTC have quite a bit of influence on how the Store conducts itself. The Events will move to a pub / other venue, the progress made on getting people off proxys will be lost, and the income stream to the games shop will be lost (which we'd prefer to support).

Its the approach taken to proxys in the UK, as opposed to those I see (and have been to) in the US, Europe, and further afield. I was wondering if it was just us who are prevented from running non-sanctioned proxy Vintage in a store?

[barcode]

The store in question definitely needs to contact its WPN rep to clear the situation up. Obviously proxies can't be used in sanctioned events but for any non-sanctioned event you can do whatever you want -- the MTR and IPG don't necessarily apply.

[alastair]

The store in question definitely needs to contact its WPN rep to clear the situation up. Obviously proxies can't be used in sanctioned events but for any non-sanctioned event you can do whatever you want -- the MTR and IPG don't necessarily apply.

I understand the TO was in contact with their WPN rep when they were asked to stop the event, and other assisting with the event but separate to the store have tried. I understand the issue is using proxies (for any format) in a WPN affiliated store.

Has no one else anywhere in the world had the same 'no proxy' ruling on Vintage events?

[JPoJohnson]

Would love if we could get more details about the store so that it isn't just hearsay about "some store at some point in time that something happened".

[Kayradis]

As a recently retired TO, this is the FIRST time I heard such thing. I was running Proxie'd and advertised Win-A-Dual (20 Proxies) Legacy Tourney last year and never got shit from my WPN rep.

Still.

If there is something WotC is consistent in,
it's fucking it up!

[TsumiBand]

Apart from yourself, is there a corroborating source for this story?

Not that I don't believe you, just -- it's typically a little more complex than WotC dropping a banhammer for shits. There's almost always a compelling reason for this kind of action.

For example, I know that they've sent C&Ds to LGSs on the basis that providing custom proxies as prizes was verboten, sanctioned or not -- the rationale basically being "it walks like a duck", therefore it's forgery. Even if it's "force of will riker" with Jon Frakes's image from his guest appearance on Cybil, if it plays like Force of Will and reads like Force of Will, it's a counterfeit. (...apparently. :/ )

As the number of proxies allowable in the average Vintage tournament has escalated from 5 (when I started) to 10, to 20, and now you see unlimited proxy events - I wouldn't be surprised if it's more and more to do with regaining their IP wherever it lays. The Rp list has nothing to do with it; the game is alive and kicking and unless I am mistaken no aspect of it can enter public domain until its copyright has long since expired (probably not in anyone's lifetime here, if memory serves it's the life of the copyright purchase + 75 years or some Very Long Time).

I wish I could remember the specifics of who was specifically sent a cease/desist due to altered proxies as prizes - want to say it was the one known as Eastman on themanadrain.com, but this is me accessing dusty parts of my brain so please don't hold me to that. I do recollect that it was A Real Thing That Happened though.

[H]

Yeah, there is definitely more to this story than we are being told/is known. I lived in the North East US for a long time and we had tons of proxy events at all sorts of store. Like everyone has said, there was probably sanctioning going on, or something else for Wizards to feel they needed to be involved.


I wish I could remember the specifics of who was specifically sent a cease/desist due to altered proxies as prizes - want to say it was the one known as Eastman on themanadrain.com, but this is me accessing dusty parts of my brain so please don't hold me to that. I do recollect that it was A Real Thing That Happened though.

I think it was actually ELD, but you might be right, it was someone in the Boston area IIRC.

[Higgs]

For the guys who are curious to hear more about the specifics, I can say that I know the name of the store and I know of one more place in the UK who was shut down for holding proxy events. The reason to keep the names anonymous is that Wizards gives these places lots of shit and obviously the players don't want to upset the store owners by going public on behalf of them.

[alastair]

Yeah, I don't want to name the store without their consent as I understand the conversation with WoTC / WPN was not in the slightest constructive, and I don't want further action taken against them. I was at the event, knew almost all of those there, and in no way was the Store selling proxies or anything like this. This store is a singles trader, has a vested interest in selling cards, and sold cards to remove proxys from decks.

The event does not show on my account, and we were told it would not be sanctioned; so no it was not sanctioned.

I asked to see if there was a wider move against proxy vintage events. From responses, it appears not. We seam to have a different policy imposed on stores in the UK.

[TsumiBand]

Well that's understandable.

My limited understanding of any such action from WotC was that it was always predicated on the idea that proxies meant some kind of loss in any given oblique or non-descript ethereal zero-sum game someone was playing somewhere. As if my scribbling "Time Walk" on a Wind Sail meant that someone somewhere magically lost thousands of dollars, and that the COO of Hasbro woke in their sleep with a splitting pain in their wallet. Going after events which only use proxies to play a format which is legitimately prohibitively costed starts to feel like the FBI actually following up on those warnings that appear in the front of every VHS movie that's been copied and re-copied; I have a hard time believing they could put out every brush fire.

[nedleeds]

I find it hard to believe that a store was C&Ded for running proxy vintage events. There has to be something else in play. We have dozens advertised on sites, that are run in WPN stores, some that run back to back with non proxy events. The only thing that I have ever heard from a TO (GP DC and GP Nashville) is that at GPs WotC doesn't allow /encourage the running of proxy side events at GPs. I'm not sure how strictly that is enforced.

[ankharlyn]

Well that's understandable.

My limited understanding of any such action from WotC was that it was always predicated on the idea that proxies meant some kind of loss in any given oblique or non-descript ethereal zero-sum game someone was playing somewhere. As if my scribbling "Time Walk" on a Wind Sail meant that someone somewhere magically lost thousands of dollars, and that the COO of Hasbro woke in their sleep with a splitting pain in their wallet. Going after events which only use proxies to play a format which is legitimately prohibitively costed starts to feel like the FBI actually following up on those warnings that appear in the front of every VHS movie that's been copied and re-copied; I have a hard time believing they could put out every brush fire.

That logic is even more insane (not saying it's not widely utilized, just insane) when you consider that the "thousands" in "lost" revenue doesn't really exist for WotC, but would be going to a random third party, since it's not like WotC sells singles directly, or ever really even sees a portion of the singles retail profits. Someone buying a Lotus for ~$5k today is not giving any money to Hasbro, and all Hasbro ever made on it was the standard $2/pack for Alpha or whatever when it was released.

Regarding "forgeries" or the claim that any proxied card is a forgery, I seriously doubt that would hold up in court, especially given that WotC themselves post all the images, card text etc of every card onto a public webserver.

It's a bit more difficult to claim "forgery" when someone is merely referencing material you yourself published, without any restrictions, publicly onto the internet for anyone to access.

[TsumiBand]

That logic is even more insane (not saying it's not widely utilized, just insane) when you consider that the "thousands" in "lost" revenue doesn't really exist for WotC, but would be going to a random third party, since it's not like WotC sells singles directly, or ever really even sees a portion of the singles retail profits. Someone buying a Lotus for ~$5k today is not giving any money to Hasbro, and all Hasbro ever made on it was the standard $2/pack for Alpha or whatever when it was released.

Regarding "forgeries" or the claim that any proxied card is a forgery, I seriously doubt that would hold up in court, especially given that WotC themselves post all the images, card text etc of every card onto a public webserver.

It's a bit more difficult to claim "forgery" when someone is merely referencing material you yourself published, without any restrictions, publicly onto the internet for anyone to access.

Well first off - and pardon the proof by Wikipedia - the practice is very commonplace in particular wherein IP infringement is involved. The very short wikipedia entry for cease and desist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cease_and_desist) states and provides sources which verify this.

Here's the thing about a C&D; it doesn't amount to much on its own, but it's typically spooky enough to rattle the 'little guy' enough that they back off. It's just a promise that someone, somewhere, will Do Something About that offensive action you're taking.

My friend's father, a lawyer by trade, refers to these as "hot rockets". Anyone can send one to anyone else. Anyone. A 7-year old can send one to their teacher for failing them in math class. I can send one to my dad if he rides my ass about not going to college, again. It's a piece of paper.

The problem -- without totally derailing the conversation and making it about something it's not -- it that it's a fairly old tactic to threaten legal action against someone who cannot afford to engage, knowing that if they are logical they must withdraw. It isn't about whether or not the case can be made; it's about whether the target can even begin to invest in the action. It's rather like a fully-powered deck engaging a budget deck, truth be told. Whichever player "deserves" the win as a result of their game knowledge, or shows the higher overall prowess, doesn't necessarily win if the opponent has bought and paid for their W ahead of time. Unlike Magic, however, there is not often a great way to enter a courtroom regarding a copyright dispute and leave a winner for under $500.00 (unless Feline's written a primer for that as well).

Anecdotally, I have been on the wrong end of such a C&D, and the free (thankfully) legal advice I was given was to simply accept the terms of the C&D - I wasn't wrong, in fact I could probably have won, but at a dollar amount which was (at the time) untenable. (no, it was not Magic related whatsoever.)

FWIW -- I agree with you and of course do not subscribe to the notion of zero-sum as it applies to that situation (or really most situations, but that's yet another sidebar for yet another thread). It's just, this is the system. Bienvenidos a la machina.

[TokenMaster]

Maybe the locations were giving out sanctioned prizes/rewards for the tournaments? If the event was unsanctioned you're not supposed to be handing out promos/taking DCI registrations.