[Article]Eternal Europe: Love//Hate [Archive]

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Mon,Goblin Chief

12-15-2014, 02:04 PM

well, a little more personal than my usual fare - let's see how you like it :)

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29918_Love-And-Hate-In-Legacy.html

Megadeus

12-15-2014, 03:07 PM

Fun article! My list is like:

Favorites:
Life from the Loam
Wasteland
Cabal Therapy

Hatred:
True Name Nemesis
Show and Tell
Deathrite Shaman

Maybe I'm just a pile of salt for hating these cards. Shaman I just hate because it weakened a lot of strategies I enjoy so maybe that one is irrational hatred, but the other two I feel are valid because whenever I lose to them I feel like my opponent won despite me sculpting a good game.

Richard Cheese

12-15-2014, 03:27 PM

One true love:
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/be/12.jpg

Now to sit back and see how long it takes this thread to get locked.

TheArchitect

12-15-2014, 03:44 PM

I enjoyed the article, it is nice hearing about peoples loves/hates in MTG.

Love:
Cabal Therapy
Sensei's Divining Top
Green Sun's Zenith
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

I like the skill testing and gambling/mindgame type of cards like force of will or brainstorm, but therapy is the most fun of these cards. I love consistency in my decks, top and GSZ give that, while also rewarding synergy with deck building. Tezzeret is a very fun card, but really I love most cards that reward you for building your deck around synergies rather than just piling a bunch of goodstuff together.

Hate:
Gitaxian Probe
Delver of Secrets/TNN
Show and Tell*

Limiting information makes for of those fun gambling/mindgames situations. Probe completely kills this fun aspect of the game at basically no cost, to a lot of decks. Delver (and to a less extent TNN) are just abominations that would be overpowered and unfun regardless of their color, but making blue just makes things even worse. Show and tell is currently a horrible card in legacy. However, pre-alara block it wasn't so bad and could actually make for a kind-of-fun minigame. *Really its not S&T that I hate, but the stupid yugioh monsters WoTC keeps printing that make the card unfun. Also the decks using it require no skill and do not create fun games. While all my hated cards are blue ones, blue is actually my favorite color.

Julian23

12-15-2014, 04:07 PM

Love:
Noble Hierarch
Vendilion Clique
Eternal Witness

Hate:
Terminus
Show and Tell

Emo

12-15-2014, 04:21 PM

Cards I hate:
TNN (Almost always ruins the combat interaction of the game)
Show and Tell (Most powerful combo enabler, least skill intensive combo card)
Treasure Cruise (Drawing 3 for the cost of U and delve feels too powerful in legacy. U/R which is a quintessiantial aggro deck can morph into a midrange deck)
Terminus (one W for a sweeper forces aggro decks to be almost exclusively blue)

Cards I love:
JTMS (powerful card in legacy but requires skill and 4 cmc is fairly costed)
Aether vial (Love the archetypes it enables)
dark confidant (great design)

M+1

12-15-2014, 04:48 PM

I enjoyed the article very much, especially this part about consistency:

I want games in which both players are able to implement their gameplans at full efficiency, where the game is a clash of the titans with both decks firing on all cylinders and throwing their punches as they're meant to be thrown. I don't want to lose because my opponent drew a bunch of powerful cards and I couldn't find answers, and I don't want to win because my opponent rattled of five lands in a row and never made a meaningful play all game.

Edited for Love/Hate:

Love:
Brainstorm
Ponder
Berserk
Lightning Bolt
every card ever printed with the old frame

Not sure:
Delver of Secrets. If I hate this, it is because of the stupid flip card mechanic.

Hate:
every card ever printed with the modern frame
Treasure Cruise - I am beginning to think this card is too good.
True-Name Nemesis
Council's Judgement, and everything else with the voting or any other multiplayer mechanic.
Griselbrand, and Omniscience.

Tourach

12-15-2014, 05:20 PM

Love:

Dark Confidant
Vedalken Shackles
Sylvan Library
Blood Moon
Hymn to Tourach
Snapcaster Mage

Favourite Card (design-wise):

River Boa

Hate:

Show and Tell
Liliana of the Veil
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Barook

12-15-2014, 05:23 PM

Cards I love
- Flickerwisp
- GSZ
- Knight of the Reliquary
- Cabal Therapy

Cards I hate:
- Brainstorm
- SDT
- Terminus
- S&T (and the dumb crap it enables, in particular Griselbrand)
- TNN
- Delver
- Treasure Cruise (Who right in their mind thought it was a good idea that interacting with your opponent punishes you because it makes it easier for them to reload?)

btm10

12-15-2014, 05:26 PM

In terms of good cards?

Love:

Deathrite Shaman - Maindeckable graveyard hate is one of those things that opens up a lot of deck design space while keeping the most abusive things in check; DRS is probably the biggest reason why 'unban Survival' is a defensible rather than insane position to take.

Sylvan Library/Brainstorm - Carsten's consistency argument basically says everything for Brainstorm, but I really like how BGx decks can use Sylvan not only as a consistency engine, but also as a card advantage engine in a lot of matchups (basically anything against a deck that doesn't aggressively attack the BGx player's life total). It's also similar to Top but without the sometimes tedious repeat spinning.

Zur's Weirding and Standstill - I really like the subgames that Weirding and Standstill create. Weirding takes bluffing out of the game, but when cast at or near parity, it also forces both players into a lot of potentially complex weighing of each other's draws. It does make games against Miracles considerably less fun (it's a one-card combo that beats them), but it makes for fascinating control mirrors. Standstill is a more recent card that I think should see more play in the UR Delver era as it really punishes high velocity decks while testing the opponent (and sometimes the caster) on when is the best time to break it. While "when the person drawing will have to discard the most cards" is frequently the right time, that isn't always the case and there's a good skill cap on identifying those moments.

Hate:

TNN/Mother of Runes - Total interaction kill. I generally don't enjoy playing with/against creature strategies, but these cards (and TNN in particular) mean that you need a sweeper - and usually a -X/-X or "destroy" effect at that - in order to interact at all.

Show and Tell - Basically the same reasoning as everyone else. As long WotC keeps printing absurd creatures (and they will), this will only get worse. At least Natural Order demands that you build around it to some extent.

Honorable Mention:

Transmute Artifact - The not-broken Tinker has always had a soft spot in my heart. I really want to see the card be good, because the deckbuilding possibilities are so cool. I tried to break it with Myr Enforcer years ago, but unfortunately nothing came of it.

Zombie

12-15-2014, 05:53 PM

Love:
Green Sun's Zenith
Past in Flames
Force of Will
Shardless Agent
Gaea's Cradle
Glimpse of Nature
Tidehollow Sculler
Cabal Ritual
Wurmcoil Engine

Value/drawing a shitton of cards, interesting conundrums, card selection/tutoring (Elf examples chosen because I enjoy the feel of their mechanics more), going broken in a big but complicated way that combines many cards into what feels like crime - you can't help but smile when that Llanowar Elves is actually Ancestral and Dark Ritual stapled together, you hardcast Hoof off a single land or flashback that Cabal Rit to up your mana pool to 14 (yes, feline, we all know it isn't very impressive).

Hate:
Griselbrand/Emrakul/Jin-Gitaxias/Omniscience/Enter The Infinite
Terminus
Dredge.dec
True-Name Nemesis/Council's Judgment
Rest in Peace
Leyline of Sanctity

Dumb cards, little else to say here. I don't mind cheating fatties into play - I love the strategy. I'd just sorely wish the huge bombs actually gave two fucks about matchup and game state the way they used to. I echo Carsten's comments on the sheer dumbness of S&T strats and Omni+EtI taking away the magic of playing combo.

TNN+Judgment are obvious affronts to sane and competent game design and should burn.

Dredge, I cannot stomach. In a way, it's beautiful that you can do it, but a deck that doesn't play in the same zones and with the same mechanics normal Magic is played in/with has no right to exist. It turns games into uninteractive snoozefests.

Rest in Peace because there are limits to hate after which it turns dumb the way S&T does. Leyline of Sanctity protects broken combo decks except hi guys, no mana investment, no vulnerable card here. It turns mulligans against S&T into a stupid lottery where discard-heavy hands can be insanely good or just full of complete blanks. Not my idea of fun gameplay. Trying to find time to play protection and then go for the kill - sometimes to even land the protection/hate piece itself - is my idea of fun.

Terminus is just The One Removal Spell To Rule Them All, and not in any interesting way - it's not even a card being astonishingly well-rounded, it's just insanely, superlatively good at everything to the point of complete stupidity and brain cancer.

Humphrey

12-15-2014, 06:05 PM

Hate: Brainstorm

Grand Superior

12-15-2014, 06:35 PM

Surprised not to see Griselbrand in your article, Carsten. Have you changed your opinion on the card?

My list:

Love:
Cabal Therapy
- Most skill-intensive card in the format IMO.
Green Sun's Zenith
- Fair nonblue variance-reducers. We need more of these kinds of cards.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
- Still one of the most awesome cards ever printed. It's absolutely demoralizing to be fatesealed out of the game, but I feel like most decks have tools to combat it.
Liliana of the Veil
- One of the best additions to the format in recent years. She gives black a tool that is subtly good against almost every matchup.
Force of Will
- Cliche, but it keeps Legacy afloat. I love that it is a terrible card until you need it to stop a combo, at which point it is the best card in the format.
Preordain
- Totally dumb reason, but I've gotten new appreciation for this card after spending a few months playing Modern and only having access to Serum Visions. I swear, I die a little inside every time I cast Serum Visions.

Hate:
True-Name Nemesis
- One of the more egregious "rich get richer" printings I've seen. Blue should not be getting creatures as powerful as this. TNN may not be as big of a problem anymore but I still don't like the constraints it's put on the format. I thought that Legacy was almost perfect, balance-wise, before Commander 2013
Treasure Cruise
- I know it's early, but I don't think that easy Ancestral Recall effects are fair to have in the format. Especially in blue. It gives tempo decks a very easy way to get card advantage and thus removes one of their key weaknesses. Also pushes base-black decks out of the format because it makes hand disruption terrible.
Terminus
- Sweepers should not cost one measly white mana, especially when it is pretty easy to set up. This card single-handedly killed a lot of Legacy's aggro decks.
Deathrite Shaman
- Mana dork for Underground Sea decks that provides them reach and stability? 2 toughness to block Goblin Lackey all day? Ugh.
Umezawa's Jitte
- With the old legend rule this card was fine and fair because other copies could counter it. With the new legend rule, it makes mirrors super miserable because, without sideboard hate, the first one to connect with Jitte is at an absurd advantage.
Griselbrand
- Reanimator used to be an interesting deck in that you had one main target, Jin Gitaxias, that was generally good against most decks (but could still be interacted with) and a toolbox of interesting one-ofs for different matchups. Now it's just Griselbrand. Sneak and Show has a similar story.

Just to preface, I play Sneak and Show and Team America and still think that some of its components were terrible additions to the format.

Wanderlust

12-15-2014, 07:23 PM

Love:
Lion's Eye Diamond
Sensei's Divining Top
Any and all tutors and Wishes
Ancient Tomb / City of Traitors
Sylvan Library
Survival of the Fittest / Artificer's Intuition
Glacial Chasm

Hate:
Delver of Secrets
True-Name Nemesis
Surgical Extraction / Extirpate
The existence of Burn as a competitive deck

JamieW89

12-15-2014, 07:27 PM

I loved the article and agree on pretty much every point.

ankharlyn

12-15-2014, 07:42 PM

Love:

S&T
Omniscience
Treasure Cruise

Hate:

JTMS
Jitte
Terminus
Dark Confidant

thecrav

12-15-2014, 08:00 PM

I don't truly hate very many cards. Either I think they're dumb, like your Delver example, or I'm excited that someone wants to be playing them. I hate getting locked out by Stax style decks but I love that people are playing different strategies. That in mind:

Love:
Counterspell - A hard "no" that's well balanced - how well balanced? It's good enough to see play in legacy but not good enough that anyone wants it as a 4-of.
Dark Confidant - Along with stronger cards like Yawgmoth's Bargain and Necropotence, this card shows one of Black's longest-living traits, succinctly explained in the flavor text: Greatness, at any cost

Hate:
Delver of Secrets - Maybe if there was a condition that caused it to flip back, I would like it. As is, it's off-pie and a virtually guaranteed flip in the kind of deck that wants to play it. I might even give it a pass if it simply lost flying.
Lodestone Golem - My dislike for this card stems from having played it. This applies more to vintage when he's playable on turn one but in legacy, a turn 2 golem is not uncommon in the decks that can support the thing. As with Delver, if any part of it were reduced, I would like it. CMC 5, 4 power, 2 toughness, sphere effect applied to fewer types would all make him less annoying.

Nuke is Good

12-15-2014, 08:23 PM

Love:
Smokestack
Liliana of the Veil
Show and Tell
Exhume
Entomb
Punishing Fire
Divine Intervention
Umezawa's Jitte

Hate
Delver of Secrets
True Name Nemesis

TNN if it was white probably wouldn't bother me as much. Delver needs some kind of downside to the card. I wouldn't care if it was a 3/2 non flier. But the fact it's basically a blue lightning bolt with buyback annoys me.

Humphrey

12-15-2014, 08:53 PM

TNN if it was white probably wouldn't bother me as much. Delver needs some kind of downside to the card. I wouldn't care if it was a 3/2 non flier. But the fact it's basically a blue lightning bolt with buyback annoys me.

well in a world where R&D aka Maro would care about the colorpie and balancing TNN would be white, Snapcaster red, Treasure Cruise black and Delver probably green or :wg:

Norm

12-15-2014, 10:06 PM

Love:
Show and Tell
Dig through Time
Force of Will

Hate:
Delver of Secrets

I don't even really "hate" Delver, but I do find it amusing when Delver pilots complain about combo cards...

As long as legacy continues to feature a bunch of "fair" decks with room for combo to succeed, I'll be a happy guy.

TheArchitect

12-15-2014, 10:19 PM

For the people that say they love Show and Tell, could you elaborate? What is there to possibly love about this card?

Nuke is Good

12-15-2014, 10:30 PM

For the people that say they love Show and Tell, could you elaborate? What is there to possibly love about this card?

Putting a fatty/something I probably would never be able to hardcast into play is fun and in some cases many turns earlier. Can't really do that in Modern.

Norm

12-15-2014, 10:51 PM

For the people that say they love Show and Tell, could you elaborate? What is there to possibly love about this card?

Show and Tell is a really interesting card. Bad players are quick to make fun of it for various reasons that feel legitimate to them, but it's really just like any other top tier combo enabler. I always feel like matches against talented players are similar to games of chess where each turn is a smaller battle that eventually leads to a victory in the war.

Just because Show and Tell can be cast on turn 1 or 2 doesn't mean it should be. In most of my games, I don't attempt to win until several turns have passed because winning with a card like Show and Tell requires some understanding of your opponent's deck and preparation to ensure victory on your combo turn. I actually dislike hands that open with turn 2 Show and Tell -> thing and no cantrips because they're not as flexible. I pull the trigger with Show and Tell, but I definitely don't like shooting before I know my target a little better.

To answer your question simply and directly, I like the card because the decks that play it well suit my style of play. Contrary to popular belief, there's a very high skill cap on Show and Tell decks. It's certainly easy to pick up the deck and win 50% of your matches but to win 75-80% or better on a regular basis really takes a deep understanding of the deck, combo in general, and the format.

Megadeus

12-15-2014, 11:05 PM

Casting show and tell, forcing their force, then drawing 7 is pretty skill intensive

Norm

12-15-2014, 11:25 PM

Casting show and tell, forcing their force, then drawing 7 is pretty skill intensive

Playing delver, countering Show and Tell then drawing 3 for U to lock it up is pretty skill intensive...see I can do it too.

In all seriousness, creating positions that allow for Show and Tell + enough permission and mana to play through disruption is actually quite skill intensive. If you go for it and lose, there's a good chance that you lose that match against good players. If I wanted to roll dice for my wins then I'd play Belcher, Show and Tell just isn't that strategy. But because you seem to believe Show and Tell is so easy to beat everyone consistently, why not sleeve it up and share your first place tournament report for us after the next major event?

TheArchitect

12-15-2014, 11:36 PM

thecrav

12-15-2014, 11:37 PM

For the people that say they love Show and Tell, could you elaborate? What is there to possibly love about this card?

I like Show and Tell. I used to hate it but now I like it. The card itself gives a very Timmy feel. I get to cheat the rules and oops here's a giant thing. The stuff that makes Show and Tell no fun is the stuff that is more annoying. Cards like Grisselbrand and Omniscience which have absurd effects. Yes, I know that those cards are costed correctly for their effects but it's not Show and Tell that has them... It's kind of a round and round thing. I guess I like the idea of Show and Tell but it results in things I don't like as much. Many of the banned cards that tutor or cheat dudes are like that.

TheArchitect

12-15-2014, 11:47 PM

I like Show and Tell. I used to hate it but now I like it. The card itself gives a very Timmy feel. I get to cheat the rules and oops here's a giant thing. The stuff that makes Show and Tell no fun is the stuff that is more annoying. Cards like Grisselbrand and Omniscience which have absurd effects. Yes, I know that those cards are costed correctly for their effects but it's not Show and Tell that has them... It's kind of a round and round thing. I guess I like the idea of Show and Tell but it results in things I don't like as much. Many of the banned cards that tutor or cheat dudes are like that.

I can definitely see the Timmy appeal of show and tell, and like I said, pre-griselbrand (and even more so pre-progentitus) the card was pretty fun/bad. In the context of currently legacy though, I dislike show and tell.

Norm

12-15-2014, 11:58 PM

Show and tell is basically an extremely simplified combo deck. Instead of require a complex and always different chain of cards like storm, elves or high tide it is always just two of the same few cards. Don't get be wrong playing around hate, using cantrips/brainstorm/FoW correctly or knowing when to go for it are skill intensive things but are not things made any more interesting or skill intensive by show and tell itself. Any blue legacy deck can do those things. Ultimately any need for skill that exists in show and tell is just the basic skill that is required to play a blue based legacy combo deck.

I am actually not sure whats less skill intensive show and tell decks or delver decks. They are probably about the same. Both basically just require basic knowledge of the format, how to play around hate and how to use blue cards.

You asked why I enjoy the card, I answered. It would appear as though what you really meant to post was "I hate losing to Show and Tell and you should all hate it too!" to which I'd simply tell you to get over it and stop being ignorant. Legacy is a format of variety, Show and Tell is just another flavor of 2 card combo that you should learn to play optimally against. Many of my opponents play very well against Show and Tell, if you're unable to do the same then you have two choices:

1) Continue to complain about the card and pretend you only lose to it because it's too powerful for legacy.
2) Adjust your play style/sideboard in a way that allows for more wins against these decks. There are very clear angles of attack and learning to read the Show and Tell player better will help you decide the best routes to victory.

Show and Tell is not a 1 card combo.

TheArchitect

12-16-2014, 12:16 AM

You asked why I enjoy the card, I answered. It would appear as though what you really meant to post was "I hate losing to Show and Tell and you should all hate it too!" to which I'd simply tell you to get over it and stop being ignorant. Legacy is a format of variety, Show and Tell is just another flavor of 2 card combo that you should learn to play optimally against. Many of my opponents play very well against Show and Tell, if you're unable to do the same then you have two choices:

1) Continue to complain about the card and pretend you only lose to it because it's too powerful for legacy.
2) Adjust your play style/sideboard in a way that allows for more wins against these decks. There are very clear angles of attack and learning to read the Show and Tell player better will help you decide the best routes to victory.

Show and Tell is not a 1 card combo.

I usually play miracles, stoneblade or tezzeret which effectively runs 8 ensnaring bridges, so losing to the show and tell is definitely not the issue (but good try!). I never said it was too powerful for legacy. It's hardly even a good deck right now and I definitely don't think it should banned or anything. I can see the Timmy appeal now, but otherwise the card has nothing good going for it. Until seeing this thread I did not realize anyone even enjoyed show and tell.

People can certainly play the deck well, but again, people can play any combo deck well. The actual combo of show/sneak and a big creature does not increase the skill required to play the deck in any way. Look at high tide for contrast: It has basically all the same enablers and protection as sneak and show, except the combo present in the DOES actually take skill in itself to win with.

Norm

12-16-2014, 12:21 AM

I usually play miracles, stoneblade or tezzeret which effectively runs 8 ensnaring bridges, so losing to the show and tell is definitely not the issue (but good try!). I never said it was too powerful for legacy. It's hardly even a good deck right now and I definitely don't think it should banned or anything. Just, besides the Timmy appeal, the card has nothing good going for it.

People can certainly play the deck well, but again, people can play any combo deck well. The actual combo of show/sneak and a big creature does not increase the skill required to play the deck in any way. Look at high tide for contrast: It has basically all the same enablers and protection as sneak and show, except the combo present in the DOES actually take skill in itself to win with.

I understand your position a little more now, you find it difficult to win (from a winning position) with decks like ANT and High Tide so there's a clear difference in that regard (for you) between Show and Tell and those. I've played all of these combo decks extensively and don't find any of them difficult to win when the coast is clear so it's all the same to me. That's not really an issue with Show and Tell, and the other combos are really quite easy when you understand the lines of play.

I'd actually argue that decks like ANT are more broken than any Show and Tell deck simply because some of the more "complicated" avenues are available. That's a privilege, not a burden.

Lord Seth

12-16-2014, 02:35 AM

I think True-Name Nemesis would be an awful card even if it was White. A color change does nothing to change the fundamental fact that it's a horribly uninteractive card that, rather than requiring something extra to be good, just gets better with the extra stuff. (and really, "protection from everything" with upside is something that I think requires all 5 colors rather than just one)

To explain: combo decks generally aren't interactive, but they require a bunch of other cards to work. For example, Tendrils of Agony requires a lot of other cards to be anything other than a 4-mana Syphon Soul. Show and Tell requires you have Griselbrand or Emrakul to be able to do anything. True-Name Nemesis requires... basically nothing to be decent, then gets even better when you have extra stuff like equipment.

Even Invisible Stalker, which is sort of True-Name Nemesis lite, required you to throw on some equipment or Auras to make it something better than a Curse of the Pierced Heart that can chump block. True-Name Nemesis offers all the uninteractivity of those cards but instead of requiring other cards to be good, it's already good and then becomes great with those other cards.

And the funniest thing is, the environment it was supposedly made for is one it's bad in. Even ignoring how unimpressive a 3/1 is in EDH, it's rather odd that what's supposed to be a "fun multiplayer card" gets worse the more players are involved. At least with something like Council's Judgment you can sometimes take out more cards if there are more players.

I do like Delver, though. It's a great card for tempo decks, and I'm a big fan of that archetype.

Megadeus

12-16-2014, 03:25 AM

Playing delver, countering Show and Tell then drawing 3 for U to lock it up is pretty skill intensive...see I can do it too.

In all seriousness, creating positions that allow for Show and Tell + enough permission and mana to play through disruption is actually quite skill intensive. If you go for it and lose, there's a good chance that you lose that match against good players. If I wanted to roll dice for my wins then I'd play Belcher, Show and Tell just isn't that strategy. But because you seem to believe Show and Tell is so easy to beat everyone consistently, why not sleeve it up and share your first place tournament report for us after the next major event?

I've never played the deck, but I'm fairly confident that I could at least top 16 an event with the deck if I ever really felt like derping some wins. You even admitted that any idiot can win half his games simply because of the ridiculous power level of the deck. The nature of the deck (dull and clunky at times) pushes people away from playing it though.

Norm

12-16-2014, 03:33 AM

I've never played the deck, but I'm fairly confident that I could at least top 16 an event with the deck if I ever really felt like derping some wins. You even admitted that any idiot can win half his games simply because of the ridiculous power level of the deck. The nature of the deck (dull and clunky at times) pushes people away from playing it though.

ig·no·rance
ˈiɡnərəns/
noun
lack of knowledge or information.

Any idiot can win half his games with a lot of legacy decks, it isn't saying much about the card at all. There's a reason we don't see Show and Tell in the finals too often and I assure you it isn't because there's some gentlemen's agreement to avoid "derping some wins". Easy to learn, difficult to master would describe it (and many combo decks) well. If you believe it's dull and clunky yet somehow manages to beat you on sheer power level with no credit toward the pilot who crushed you then you'll be disappointed very often in this game.

Fatal

12-16-2014, 04:15 AM

Love:
Cabal Therapy - its simple one of the best black card with raw power when you know format
GSZ - first fair and powerful tutor in Green for Legacy
Knight of the Reliquary - also very skill intensive card - not only big fat monster but also a solution to many situations
Sylvan Library - great CQ/CA for proper price
Intuition - probably more skill intensive then brainstorm - more fit to legacy with power level
Veteran Explorer - for many years underplayed in legacy - its basically bast ramp in legacy
LED - card which brings so many archetypes - so close to black lotus but with good downside - well balanced
Force of Will - this card keep turn 0/1 kills MD on bay - it's well balanced 2-1.
Engineered Explosives - its mostly SB card - but with so many applications that unless its mono-color deck I always find place for it
Imperial Recruiter - "Goblin Matron" for most creatures
Gaddock Teeg - Fair hatebear which can be 2/2 bear, or pain in the .. for almost every unfair combo deck in format
Survival of the Fittest - doesn't need explanations

Order here doesn't matter

Honor mention:
Morphing - one man army which is only 3/3 for 5 it goes out after M10 and changing dmg on stack.
Phyrexian Negator/Juzám Djinn - its essence of black

Hate in order:
TNN - Probably the most dumb and lazy design card ever printed - after it I sell most of my cards (had every deck in Legacy) - that was one of the reasons - after B&R keep it
Treasure Cruise/DTT - absurd of power creep - conditional Ancestral, which can be easy achive - Dev Team forgot to test cards - it shouldn't be printed.
Flash - Good design - bad testing - banned - good
Terminus - it breaks the rule which was legit since alpha - Sweepers in white are 4 CMC - miracle cost of W is absurd
Griselbrand - Printing Bargain with Legs which is better then original and keeping original banned - makes S&T/Sneak absurd - its not a problem of S&T - was fine before Griselbrand.
Mental Misstep - Next bad design - banned - good
Delver of Secrets - again bad design (power creep) with bad testing - should be 2/2 fly after flip

eays

12-16-2014, 04:44 AM

Love:

Smallpox/Pox
Life from the Loam
Living Wish
Green Sun's Zenith
Veteran Explorer
Cabal Therapy
Liliana of the Veil
Slaughter Games
Dark Confidant
Intuition
Notion Theif!

Dislike:

Treasure Cruise
True Name Nemisis
Griselbrand
Emrakul
Delver of Secrets
Gitaxian Probe
Terminus

Dosferra

12-16-2014, 06:35 AM

Love:
Loam/LED/Top/Vial - Any unique card that can single-handedly spawn decks or even archetypes on it’s own.
Intuition - Basically all tutors, as I think that is one of the defining aspects of the format, Intuition is certainly the most fun one though.
GSZ/Knight - I guess they could be clumped with tutors, but uhm, flavorful consistency tools outside of blue.

Hate:
Griselbrand/S&T - Two card combos that usually win/end the game once they resolve, great fun for everyone. Good examples of perfectly fine 2 card combos would be CounterTop, ThopterSword and PunishingGrove.
TNN/Terminus/RIP(/Delver?) - Cards that are simply too powerful at what they do and end up being oppressive. Can without assistance invalidate entire decks/archetypes.

And regarding the discussion about Show and Tell. From my LGS as well as from the twitch streams I usually watch, it’s obvious that Show and Tell decks are held in low regard. Much akin to Burn, sure it’s alright if you bring it to a tournament if you think the meta is weak to it, everybody want to win, or if you don’t want/can’t think too much..
Or maybe there is another reason hardly anyone plays it more than once in like every six months and whenever it’s mentioned people either frown or sneer?
It’s obviously not a sentiment directed against all combo, as it can be a real treat to watch a strong Storm pilot finagle their way through multiple hate cards or a Elves player fighting through massive amounts of removal.

NilsH

12-16-2014, 06:36 AM

Cards I like:

Brainstorm: I don't like to win because my opponent draw badly, and I certainly don't like losing because of my own bad draws. This card ensures some level of consistancy.
Sylvan Liberary: I like this for the same reasons as Brainstorm.
Life from the Loam: For the same reasons as Carsten listed in his article.
Dark Confidant: I like drawing extra cards, and Confidant be used in a wide range of strategies.
Intuition and Gifts Ungiven: Gifts is unfortunatly to slow for the format, but a truely skill intesive card for both players. Both cards are great to setup further turns, but Intuition used as a tutor is boring.
Jace the Mindsculptor: Without Jace TMS there wouldn't be any true control decks in the format (much like Modern).

I like conditional tutors. They are in general not to overpowered and they require some skill, both in building and playing a deck. To name a few: Trinket Mage, Knight of the Reliquary, Green Sun's Zenith, Imperial Recruiter, Crop Rotation, Enlightened Tutor and Survial of the Fittest.

Cards I don't like:

Gitaxian Probe: I like the game to have elements of bluffs and reading your opponent. This card take that away.
Show and Tell: For the same reasons as Carsten listed in his article. The card is basicly a super ritual for either 15 colorless or BBBB4 for only U2. Compare that to Dark/Cabal Ritual you'll understand why the card is overpowered.
True-Name Nemesis: For the same reasons as Carsten listed in his article.
Bloodbraid Elf: I don't like the random element that comes with the cascade mechanic. This card is fair in Legacy, but back in old Alara Standard this card was very dominating (BBE -> Blightning = Discard 2 cards and kill your Jace/Planeswalker and then attack you for 3).

Lemnear

12-16-2014, 07:54 AM

Love
cards with unique effects to build a deck around and which needs other cards to unlock their potential (Like Cabal Therapy, LED, Glimpse, Miracles-mechanic, 12-Post)

Hate
All Kinds of expensive I-win-button or lazy total-package design (TNN, S&T, SFM, NO, etc.)

Hopo

12-16-2014, 08:13 AM

Sloshthedark

12-16-2014, 08:24 AM

I like the article, we share the view of full efficiency gameplay, however colorshifting BS is something I don't like in theory, there should be more/better tutors in Legacy for everyone but with up/downsides according to it's color, raw cardmanipulation should be exclusive to blue imo

LOVE

Brainstorm
Gamble
Senseis Divining Top
Maze of Ith
Life from the Loam
Smokestack
Past in Flames
Recurring Nightmare
Painter's Servant
Karakas
Cabal Therapy
Sylvan Library

Survival of the Fittest

Neutral - S+T - I kind of like the card itself but dislike implications to the game, with so many I win cards it's juts stupid

HATE
- new border - everlasting trauma of feeling raped

Batterskull - spoils SFM
Treasure Cruise - too random, swings attrition wars
Thalia - +other "cards on creatures" and hard hatebears in general
Heritage Druid - elves as a combo is just ridiculous idea for me
Surgical Extraction - should not be colorless fx imo
Planeswalkers - I'm from the 90ties, slowly getting used to it

Honorable mentions of hate - creatures>spells design, "When ~ you win the game" cards, Commander aimed development in legacy, powerscreeped creatures pf modern time - Eldrazi, Grizzly, Titans, Delver (metagame effects)

Barook

12-16-2014, 08:24 AM

It's a bit surprising that people who actively play legacy dislike the most powerful and distinct cards the most. I tend to think that those cards are the reason to play legacy over less powerful formats.
Said cards either allow to win the game with little to no interaction (e.g. S&T, TNN) or are ridculously undercosted (breaking general design guildlines) to the point where they invalidate alot of decks (e.g. Delver, Terminus).

It's not hard to see why alot of people hate these cards.

Echelon

12-16-2014, 08:26 AM

It's a bit surprising that people who actively play legacy dislike the most powerful and distinct cards the most. I tend to think that those cards are the reason to play legacy over less powerful formats.

It's not that people dislike playing those cards, people dislike playing against those cards.

Nobody likes the guy that brings the gun to the knife fight, but boy is it good to be the guy with the gun at the knife fight.

I myself have a weakness for anything that lets you do silly, broken stuff without running the standard (blue) cantrip shell. More specifically Glimpse of Nature and Bridge from Below.

Stuff I hate? Meh, the 20 card core for AnyDelver.deck. Most of it is a necessary evil, but it gets old.

Julian23

12-16-2014, 08:27 AM

It's a bit surprising that people who actively play legacy dislike the most powerful and distinct cards the most. I tend to think that those cards are the reason to play legacy over less powerful formats.

To me, the biggest draw to Legacy is that it feels like the deepest and most rewarding format. The things I dislike about it have only been introduced to it in the recent years.

Sloshthedark

12-16-2014, 08:34 AM

To me, the biggest draw to Legacy is that it feels like the deepest and most rewarding format. The things I dislike about it have only been introduced to it in the recent years.

true for me too

Quasim0ff

12-16-2014, 08:38 AM

To me, the biggest draw to Legacy is that it feels like the deepest and most rewarding format. The things I dislike about it have only been introduced to it in the recent years.
Stuff like Deathrite shaman is just stupid design, printing a 1CMC planeswalker.

:cool:

Zombie

12-16-2014, 08:55 AM

It's a bit surprising that people who actively play legacy dislike the most powerful and distinct cards the most. I tend to think that those cards are the reason to play legacy over less powerful formats.

Because cards can never be just plain Dumb. Being brokenly powerful and remaining interesting is a fine line to walk. Some cards succeed, some step over the line. Little else to it.

Or, as someone put it about SF4's new Omega Mode: "There's 'Fun Game' broken and 'Dead Game' broken."

Teluin

12-16-2014, 09:12 AM

I don't want to make a list, but I'm surprised no one mentioned Fact or Fiction yet. That card is so fun!

Lemnear

12-16-2014, 09:53 AM

Said cards either allow to win the game with little to no interaction (e.g. S&T, TNN) or are ridculously undercosted (breaking general design guildlines) to the point where they invalidate alot of decks (e.g. Delver, Terminus).

It's not hard to see why alot of people hate these cards.

If design guidelines suggest that threats are more cost-efficient than answers, they are flawed from the start. You can't print Young Pyromancer at 2cc but shift wrath-effects to 5+ mana. You can't print 3cc+ counterspells, but let people draw 3 for U.

wcm8

12-16-2014, 11:14 AM

Love:

Lots of things. Especially things that encourage back-and-forth interaction; games that require multiple choices.

Hate:

Lots of the things. Specifically, things that skew Legacy towards non-interaction, e.g. linear combo decks, prison strategies, stuff that's just not fun or drags games out too long.

Treasure Cruise (mistake)
Delver of Secrets (mistake)
Show and Tell
Omniscience
Stifle
Natural Order (when the best option was Verdant Force, fine. But after Progenitus, this card became just as bad as Show and Tell)
Chalice of the Void
Trinisphere
Crucible of Worlds
Smokestack
Lodestone Golem
Blood Moon / Magus of the Moon / Choke / Back to Basics
Price of Progress (Burn.dec in general isn't very fun to play against)
Grindstone
Batterskull (broken)
Umezawa's Jitte (broken)
True-Name Nemesis (should have been a White card)
Gitaxian Probe / Dismember (Phyrexian Mana in general)
Counterbalance (un fun)
Jace, the Mind Sculptor (broken)
Terminus (broken)
Sensei's Divining Top (drags games out, and is broken with Miracle cards and counterbalance)
Emrakul
Griselbrand
Bridge from Below (Dredge in general)

That's just me though.

btm10

12-16-2014, 11:50 AM

If design guidelines suggest that threats are more cost-efficient than answers, they are flawed from the start. You can't print Young Pyromancer at 2cc but shift wrath-effects to 5+ mana. You can't print 3cc+ counterspells, but let people draw 3 for U.

A minor quibble - Young Pyromancer isn't pushed for Standard play, and the 5cc Wrath 'rule' only applies to new sets. It's not like they're likely to ban Wrath or Damnation in Modern, and Pyromancer is only as powerful as he is in Legacy and Vintage because of the confluence of extremely low mana curves and a lack of large creatures. Otherwise, yes.

That being said, I think Pyromancer is great design. He's great in UR because that deck is constantly playing cheap spells, but I don't think the design space around him has been fully explored yet.

JamieW89

12-16-2014, 11:53 AM

I'll post a list too.

Love:
Brainstorm
Sensei's Divining Top
Cabal Therapy
Doomsday
Gifts Ungiven
Dig Through Time
Force of Will
Gitaxian Probe
Stifle/Waste (despite destroying some games)
Liliana
Life from the Loam
Sylvan Library
Green Sun's Zenith

Hate:
True-Name Nemesis
Delver of Secrets
Treasure Cruise
Show and Tell
Batterskull
Ad Nauseam
Natural Order
Griselbrand (& other Derp)
Chalice of the Void
Lodestone Golem
Blood Moon
Hymn to Tourach
Terminus
Counterbalance
Dredge-related things

.dk

12-16-2014, 12:12 PM

My short list...

Love:
Gifts Ungiven
Sensei's Divining Top
Lion's Eye Diamond
Doomsday
Brainstorm
Any kind of tutor or tutor engine (mystical, enlightened, burning wish, survival, etc)
Sylvan Library

Hate:
Delver of Secrets
Deathrite Shaman
True Name Nemesis
Griselbrand
Omniscience
Show and Tell

Lord_Mcdonalds

12-16-2014, 01:50 PM

It would be easier to list my dislikes honestly (I like a lot of things)

Dislike:
Show and tell: whether this card is broken or not (I feel it is), I just hate how it takes so much away from the game, instead of trying to out think your opponent, you instead cantrip into counter spells and business and just win, with elves/storm there is quite a bit of thought that goes into the lines of play, for both you need to sequence spells correctly to preserve your resources, show and tell merely needs a, b and counter magic and simply brute force its combo through

True Name nemesis: I just hate the design and avoid using it unless I feel it is essential to the deck

Zombie

12-16-2014, 02:45 PM

It would be easier to list my dislikes honestly (I like a lot of things)

Dislike:
Show and tell: whether this card is broken or not (I feel it is), I just hate how it takes so much away from the game, instead of trying to out think your opponent, you instead cantrip into counter spells and business and just win, with elves/storm there is quite a bit of thought that goes into the lines of play, for both you need to sequence spells correctly to preserve your resources, show and tell merely needs a, b and counter magic and simply brute force its combo through

Objection: Natural Order can be almost as dumb - there are mitigating factors like merely trying costing board presence, getting hit by Teeg, Progenitus being smalltime compared to the ludicrosities S&T puts into play and Hoof needing not-sick stuff on the board (NO? resolves. In response to Hoof trigger, Golgari Charm. Have fun). Even then, it can be a pretty dumb card pretty often.

btm10

12-16-2014, 03:36 PM

Objection: Natural Order can be almost as dumb - there are mitigating factors like merely trying costing board presence, getting hit by Teeg, Progenitus being smalltime compared to the ludicrosities S&T puts into play and Hoof needing not-sick stuff on the board (NO? resolves. In response to Hoof trigger, Golgari Charm. Have fun). Even then, it can be a pretty dumb card pretty often.

Aren't those mitigating factors basically the reasons that people generally dislike NO less than S&T? Are you trying to say that they're not legitimate?

Zombie

12-16-2014, 03:58 PM

Aren't those mitigating factors basically the reasons that people generally dislike NO less than S&T? Are you trying to say that they're not legitimate?

I'm listing them because they're legit. I'm just trying to say we're still talking about a deck that plays four (more costly) copies of Tinker. The deck does everything proactive pretty much. It does the smartypantsy spell chains and precise technical operation, it does the absurd (hardcasting 8-drops qualifies right?) and sometimes it goes to Dumb Town ^^

btm10

12-16-2014, 04:23 PM

I'm listing them because they're legit. I'm just trying to say we're still talking about a deck that plays four (more costly) copies of Tinker. The deck does everything proactive pretty much. It does the smartypantsy spell chains and precise technical operation, it does the absurd (hardcasting 8-drops qualifies right?) and sometimes it goes to Dumb Town ^^

Yeah, that's fair. But every deck in Legacy goes to Dumb Town sometimes. Delver decks can blind-flip Delver into Wasteland+Stifle people out of games on turn 2. Miracles can lock people without Abrupt Decay (and undiversified mana costs) out of the game on turn 2. Storm and Show and Tell decks both have potential turn 1 blowouts - Belcher and Oops! All Spells! exist solely because they can turn 1 people. Painter can turn 1 Blood Moon/Magus people out of the game quite reliably. Of all of these options, I (and many others) find the way in which Show and Tell decks can go to Dumb Town the most egregious because they basically face none of the deckbuilding or hate constraints that other combo decks do. They're base-blue so they get their own free protection in Force of Will. They're monocolored or two-color so they can not only run basics to dodge Wasteland on their non-Sol Lands, but they also get their own nonbasic land hate in Blood Moon or Back to Basics. They're also not as vulnerable to faster combo as many other combo decks because they get to run counterspells as their protection suite. They can even use redundant enablers as protection in ways that Reanimator, the most similar combo deck, can't because the graveyard is a known zone and your hand isn't.

And while Show and Tell decks aren't as mindless as some have suggested, let's not pretend they're anywhere near as dependent on technical play or have the same skill cap as Storm and Elves or face hate as powerful as Dredge or Reanimator out of people's sideboards. I realize that you're just pointing out that Elves can do broken things too, but Show and Tell's brokenness is different in both kind and degree.

Not saying it should be banned (I don't think it should be), just that I don't like it.

Helga

12-16-2014, 04:37 PM

ITT: Frustrated Elves/Storm players who deem S&T players dumb to cope with their never ending losses to Sneak & Show and Omnitell.

Get off your elitist high horse and stop masturbating on the high "skill-intensity" of your decks.

To quote PVDDR, someone who actually knows something about this game:

The second misconception is that you should play a more complicated deck to make use of your superior skill. It is true that good people can play more decks and will have more choices, including some complex decks that other people can’t play, but it’s not because you can play something that other people can’t that you should; sometimes a simple deck will win more than a complicated deck, and it’s not because other people will win as much with it as you will that it’s not the better choice. Basically, if you are an 8 with a deck that everyone is a 5 with, or an 8.5 with a deck everyone is an 8 with, well, 8.5 is still the better choice for you.

People also seem to think that a deck being more complicated is a quality. They think it sets them apart as an elite class of players who can play it and they use the fact that they chose that deck for bragging rights. This is silly; being more complicated is not a quality, it’s a downside. A deck like Doomsday is worse to play because it’s complicated, not better.

TheArchitect

12-16-2014, 05:04 PM

This is silly; being more complicated is not a quality, it’s a downside.[/B] A deck like Doomsday is worse to play because it’s complicated, not better.[/I]

Normally, I would welcome people to The Source, but since boring, simplified gameplay is what you value, let me redirect you to a message board more suited to your interests: Battle.net Hearthstone Discussion (http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/12492997/?abt=nav1&utm_expid=68589644-24.yOgsCsWhSz-gOSDIbl82Wg.1&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fus.battle.net%2Fhearthstone%2Fen%2Fforum%2F%3Fabt%3Dnav1).

The complaints about show and tell are not just from soreloser, master-race doomsday players. I have literally lost to a show and tell deck twice in the past 2 years and still hate the card (one of those times was reanimator)

btm10

12-16-2014, 05:24 PM

thecrav

12-16-2014, 05:34 PM

Just wanted to point out that the question was not what cards are bad design, no fun, etc. The question was what do you love and hate, which frequently results in answers that maybe aren't so easy to rationalize. There's no need to get upset that someone dislikes the thing you like or vice versa.

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/3c/3c76e21b39e09b8992e9b92f7f387501e99cd90b8ea709357c819942808377d4.jpg

Megadeus

12-16-2014, 05:35 PM

Agreed. I beat show and tell with dead guy regularly. It's just not an interesting or complicated deck in any way. I just disagree with the deck being a skill testing deck. It's fine to play a simple 2 card combo deck if you just want to win. Whatever. I just think it's a dull card that is slightly, but not overly, oppressive.

Pastorofmuppets

12-16-2014, 06:09 PM

Great article. I feel like it's hard to write a fair-sounding, opinion-oriented article about a game with an objectively-focused community. My only gripe is that you don't like Hymn for its variance. The real thing that makes Hymn awesome is the kind of shells that usually play it. Granted, it's been approached with a less-obtuse design before with cards like Gerrard's Verdict and Blightning, but Ritual-Hymn-Duress is probably my favorite turn 1 play outside of Christmasland grips for Ad Nauseam decks.

Lemnear

12-16-2014, 06:41 PM

mikek

12-16-2014, 08:42 PM

As an intermittent player of Patriot, I play four of the most hated cards in Legacy: Delver, TNN, Gitaxian Probe (who knew?), and, of course, Brainstorm. Maybe we should redub it 'Hatriot'?

On the other hand, as someone who learned Legacy (insofar as I know it at all) playing Merfolk, I would propose we give the most infamous merfolk of all some, er, 'silvergills': "As an additional cost to cast True-Name Nemesis, reveal a Merfolk card from your hand or pay {3}." Merfolk would still be Tier 1.8 (if that?) and everyone else would be spared the least interactive fish of all.

Lemnear

12-16-2014, 08:52 PM

maharis

12-16-2014, 09:34 PM

I love two-for-ones, engines, high-value cards and breakable symmetric effects. Cabal Therapy, Zealous Persecution, Innocent Blood, Lightning Helix, Lingering Souls, Bloodghast, Veteran Explorer, Gatekeeper of Malakir, Green Sun's Zenith, Young Pyromancer and Thalia are some of my favorites. I'm a sucker for most Charms.

Hitting on both sides of a Therapy is an incomparable feeling in Magic. Actually, my ideal play is dredging a Darkblast into Souls and Therapy with a Pyro in play.

I love deceptively underpowered cards that are in fact total hellions. Mother of Runes, Siege Rhino, Repeal, Courser of Kruphix. I'm also obsessed with buildarounds. Would love to build a deck that can cast Mystical Teachings to find Notion Thief, or abuse Ion Storm.

Despite my B&R rantings, I'm ambivalent towards Brainstorm, Delver, Ponder, Treasure Cruise. In fact I play Delver in Modern and love flipping the little guy. Cards I really hate are:
Tarmogoyf — I am more than comfortable admitting that this is partially related to its price. But I also hate how it dominates other 2cmc and 3cmc creatures and pushes more interesting cards to the fringes.
True-Name Nemesis — Similar to Goyf, but even more annoying at times. Takes all the interaction and gamesmanship out of combat.
Counterbalance — Compare to Chalice of the Void. This is way undercosted, overpowered, and unfun. Even without SDT it's a nightmare because sometimes they just have it.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor — It's a brainless I win button.

I think Natural Order is perfectly fine. Requires two colored mana, that you have a creature with certain characteristics on board, as well as one with certain characteristics in your library. I loathe Wirewood Symbiote though, but for no reason other than Elves is annoying to play against.

Julian23

12-17-2014, 05:02 AM

People also seem to think that a deck being more complicated is a quality. They think it sets them apart as an elite class of players who can play it and they use the fact that they chose that deck for bragging rights. This is silly; being more complicated is not a quality, it’s a downside. A deck like Doomsday is worse to play because it’s complicated, not better.[/I]

He is right though. Except for the part about it being a downside. It's neither good nor bad.

Especially for a deck like Doomsday, you get relatively little out of your mastery of the deck these days. It used to be different but the deck just doesn't provide as much relative value for mastering as it was the case 5-10 years ago. One could say that a person who thinks he/she is a good competitive player because he/she has mastered Doomsday and brought it to an important tournament...has actually actually shown to be a rather weak competitive player because he/she selected an underpowered deck.

cab0747

12-17-2014, 11:46 AM

Love:
- Life from the Loam
- Intuition
- Goblin Welder
- Thalia

Hate:
- Counterbalance
- Griselbrand
- Show and Tell (I go back and forth on this)

tescrin

12-17-2014, 01:36 PM

Hm.. I think I love:
-Cabal Therapy
-GB staples: Bob, Lily, TS, Abrupt Decay, DRS

in general because of the ways the shell interacts with itself.
I also love:
-Sensei's Divining Top
-Thopter Foundry/Pyro (all the tokens!)
-Life from the Loam (good luck playing Nerd!)

I hate:
-TNN. It's just an obnoxious design. TNN just makes the game so "Who can get double-beaters faster and race" or "who can equip and race first"
-BSK. This was the derpiest card designed before TNN. What a pile of derp.
-Terminus..
-Counterbalance..
-TC. I don't think it's ban-worthy; but it helped get rid of Tombstalker (who is cool as hell) and makes Bob much worse.
-Thalia. I use her a lot in the side, but what a pile of obnoxious.
-Griselbrand

You can probably tell I'm really really tired of miracles. Also, I think Sneak Attack is meaner than S&T. SA allows top-deck wins and is the real "problem" in S&T that is difficult to solve. You can't Karakas your way through it, you can't Lily it, you can't decay it, you can't counter the dudes. I think it's a weaker card in general, but the real reason SneakShow wins so much is that black decks can strip their entire hand and still lose to a single topdeck if they squirted a SA out.

Tammit67

12-17-2014, 02:22 PM

-BSK. This was the derpiest card designed before TNN. What a pile of derp.

BSK? :eyebrow: What's that?

Bosque

12-17-2014, 02:49 PM

While not all Legacy playable anymore...

Love:
Nevinyrral's Disk
Counterspell
Meekstone
Icy Manipulator
Winter Orb
Serra Angel
Stasis
Mana Barbs
Armageddon
Rishadan Port
Wrath of God
Aether Vial
Mangara of Corondor
Hymn to Tourach
Hypnotic Specter
Terminus
Sensei's Divining Top
Birthing Pod
Green Sun's Zenith
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Mother of Runes
Back to Basics
Blood Moon
Wasteland
Eidolon of the Great Revel

I enjoy playing cards that allow for complex choices, toolboxing, cards that lock up the game, or that punish particular strategies or greedy manabases. While I miss the days of yore sometimes, I also appreciate that one can now play control decks with creatures in them, which can be fun. Really I hate very few individual cards, but would rather play against (or with) a prison deck any day of the week than against solitaire playing combo decks. But people can play those decks, as long as other decks have the tools to deal with them I have no complaints. Based on the above, it's probably pretty easy to guess what decks I currently play :)

tescrin

12-17-2014, 02:52 PM

BSK? :eyebrow: What's that?

Batterskull

eays

12-17-2014, 04:21 PM

Batterskull

Which makes me think...I don't actually dislike stoneforge mystic, in fact the card is cool and has the design potential to allow for a lot of different options and is a pretty useful tutor effect.

I like cards that allow for this sort of decision making in game...cards that allow you to say "which card to I need to get out of my deck to deal with this board state and what I predict as the future board state" and then make that play.

The problem is when they print these cards like batterskull...griselbrand...legendary eldrazi...that are head and shoulders better than anything else that could fill their role and that pander to the lowest common denominator of magic player.

Now, instead of stoneforge being a nifty tutor effect that allows the player to make a decision, you know exactly what they are going to pull out of their deck 99% of the time...batterskull. Nothing else even compares.

Just like with reanimator or show and tell...you know everytime...here comes griselbrand...here comes emrakul...here we go again. There are lots of other examples of this type of card design and power creep recently with all types of cards, not just creatures, but I would say this is a clear design path that I "hate". It makes for such stale and repetitive game play.

The funnest type of decks to play and play against are the toolboxes, the synergistic decks, and the decks where the games are won through incremental advantage in my opinion. Not the "does this spell resolve? OK I probably win" experience or the generic goodstuff decks.

Pastorofmuppets

12-17-2014, 05:42 PM

Now, instead of stoneforge being a nifty tutor effect that allows the player to make a decision, you know exactly what they are going to pull out of their deck 99% of the time...batterskull. Nothing else even compares.

I've gotten to the point where I'm running 2 Batterskull and tutoring them up when I combo out on turn 2/3 with Modern Relic Quest because it's near-impossible to race and a BS'd Skyfisher shuts down 90% of my meta. Granted my meta's almost all aggro, but it's insane that I'm getting more consistent wins with BS than Argentum.

Bed Decks Palyer

12-17-2014, 06:21 PM

Now, instead of stoneforge being a nifty tutor effect that allows the player to make a decision, you know exactly what they are going to pull out of their deck 99% of the time...batterskull. Nothing else even compares.
Stonehewer Giant is nice. It'll be bett... I mean interesting, if SFM worked similarly to Giant. Well, but there are 20k bad cards already so maybe SFM is good as it is.

Just like with reanimator or show and tell...you know everytime...here comes griselbrand...here comes emrakul...here we go again. There are lots of other examples of this type of card design and power creep recently with all types of cards, not just creatures, but I would say this is a clear design path that I "hate". It makes for such stale and repetitive game play.
I'd add "boring" somewhere into the last sentence, but yeah...

Cards I like:
Mystic Enforcer
Knight of the Reliquary
Green Sun's Zenith
Windswept Heath
Swords to Plowshares

GoblinZ

12-18-2014, 12:01 AM

I'd add "boring" somewhere into the last sentence, but yeah...

[/cards]

I think we can play any interactive games in other format, but only legacy or vintage allows people to do such crazy things, which may be appealing to some playeres like me...

love: Daze, Nimble Mongoose, Dark Confidant, Hymn to Tourarch, Goblin Matron, Imperial Recruiter, Rishadan Port, Blood Moon, Sinkhole, Cursed Scroll

As for hate, I can make a list that I used to hate:

Tarmogoyf (stupid design)
Wild Nacatl (I really hated this card in the past, but when zoo was gone I really miss it now)
Deathrite Shaman (too strong for one mana)
Griselbrand (stupid but when I began to play SNT I get used to it）
TNN （ cannot describe how stupid it is）
Any planeswalkers ( cannot get used to this kind of thing when I was back to mtg in 2010 after a 4 years break)

And I don't hate delver, although it is stupid enough, it revived gro archetype like Canadian Thresh in 2011...but now it is over flooded in the meta...

ESG

12-18-2014, 02:18 AM

I love the article, Carsten, and it inspired me to similarly reflect. In the process, it brought to the foreground what kind of player I am.

I'm a Johnny-Spike. I like to win, but I prefer to win on my own terms. I like build-around-me cards and multi-card combos. I like to have a lot of freedom and creativity in designing a deck, and sometimes my stubborn Johnny impulses lead me to play brews that are less competitive. My favorite color in Magic is green. My least-favorite color in Magic is probably white, although the color that irks me most often is blue. I love the tools that blue gets to wield, but it has always struck me as tragically unfair that other colors don't come close in terms of the power level of their mechanics. Healing Salve vs. Ancestral Recall is the classic comparison. As far as my personal favorites, well, if you designed a card at 1G, you'd likely be part of the way there.

LOVE
Survival of the Fittest

This is my favorite card in all of Magic. It incentivizes playing with lots of creatures rather than lots of spells, and it allows you lots of room for customization, to the point that you can run lots of 1-of creatures. This adds a lot of variety to the games, even though your primary gameplan is going to revolve around locating and resolving your Survival. It plays well with enter-the-battlefield abilities, which are my favorite kinds of creatures in Magic, and the graveyard, which is my beloved sandbox.

Cabal Therapy

Cabal Therapy is a gem. Its power level scales with your ability as a player, and I adore the Brainstorm-Therapy dance where each player can try to next-level the other. The card also interacts with the graveyard, which is icing on the cake.

Fact or Fiction

One great feature of Fact or Fiction is how it involves the opponent, allowing him or her to split the piles. Magic needs more cards like this: ones that involve both players.

Argothian Enchantress, Life from the Loam, and Dark Confidant

Card-drawing effects, or a reasonable substitute, that aren't blue. When card advantage means so much in the outcome of a game, it's prudent to bleed that effect into other colors unless you want blue to be the dominant color in a format.

Krosan Grip, Abrupt Decay, and Slaughter Games

Hard counterspells have been overpowered for much of Magic's history due to their efficiency at answering any type of spell, and they have long been miscosted -- Force of Will laughably so -- which is why there is no Counterspell or even Mana Leak in modern-day Standard. Split second is a clever way to circumvent countermagic. Uncounterability is a little ham-fisted, but it opens up new opportunity. In Legacy, the tempo plan of sticking a threat and protecting it with soft permission was a lot more bedeviling before the existence of Abrupt Decay. Ditto for the way-overpowered combination of Sensei's Divining Top plus Counterbalance. Slaughter Games is the card that Cranial Extraction always should have been, and Slaughter Games is still barely played in this format.

Maze of Ith

Amazingly flavorful: Your creature gets lost in the maze. Not being able to produce mana is a reasonable drawback.

Smokestack

Plotting ahead and judging when to tick up the Smokestack can be a nice skill-tester. Plus, I love blowing up permanents. I'm not a huge fan of prison archetypes -- I like both players to be able to play Magic -- so I hope I can carve out a new and different home for this card in the future.

Wall of Roots and Shield Sphere

I like Walls. I often wish Walls were better, but these are excellent. Wall of Roots is ramp and a formidable blocker. It plays well with Survival of the Fittest and effectively has haste and vigilance. Shield Sphere requires zero investment, saves your hide for many turns, and has been an unassuming combo piece in the past. All in all, if a creature doesn't have the ability to attack, it can be pushed a bit.

The Sword cycle
Equipment is a good thing. Enchantments were frustrating because they let you get 2-for-1'd all the time. Having a piece of weaponry remaining on the battlefield to be picked up by another creature is a very flavorful game mechanic. I do think Batterskull is considerably overpowered and definitely should not have a bounce ability, and there's no way Jitte needs three abilities. I like the Sword cycle due to the rich mythology of swords (Excalibur, The Sword in the Stone, etc.). Sword of the Ages and Runesword were cool-looking but lacked the power befitting a legend. The Sword cycle has just the right power level, I feel: epic but not busted.

Ball Lightning

More amazing flavor from maybe the most flavorful set in Magic: The Dark. The trample was perfect, leaving your opponent with a jolt even when blocking. All right, I'm getting all nostalgic now. Let's move on to the cards I loathe and my arguments for why they detract from the game.

HATE
True-Name Nemesis

This creature has my vote for the most uninteractive, feel-bad creature in all of Magic. It takes combat out of the equation and renders the majority of removal spells irrelevant. Most offensively, there is no real cost or drawback attached to it, meaning that it outclasses other creatures in virtually every situation. True-Name face-offs are typified by playing more True-Names than the other guy or by equipping yours first. There's also the disgusting display of both players equipping True-Names with a Batterskull and often a Sword and/or a Jitte: Life totals swing back and forth, hardly mattering, and the game comes down to whichever player dies of boredom first -- or, OK, who draws a way to destroy the equipment.

Council's Judgment

Council's Judgment is the patch for the virus that is True-Name Nemesis, and the way it contorts the rules to target without targeting is embarrassing. Two wrongs don't make a right, WOTC. Just ban True-Name in one-on-one formats and move on.

Rishadan Port

This card is an abomination, and I say that as someone who loves, loves, loves land destruction. It often functions as an uncounterable, replayable Silence and results in one player tapping lands (and not otherwise playing spells) to prevent the other player from doing anything. I like that Rishadan Port can cut someone off a color or coax someone to crack a fetchland, but I strongly dislike how multiple Ports lock someone out of playing Magic. Basic lands already harbor the disadvantage of producing only one color of mana, so they really ought to be exempt from the Port. Rishadan Port also slows the game down, adding lots of extra repetitive and irritating actions.

Iona, Shield of Emeria

Now we're on the big, dumb, overpowered creatures category. Part of an enjoyable game of Magic involves both players being able to cast spells. Iona prevents the opponent from casting most, or all, of their spells. See the problem? Due to WOTC's obstinacy/obliviousness, Iona was one in a string of ridiculously overpowered fatties that had the minor drawback of being legendary. This left people scrounging for answers, and Karakas was the best one. Unfortunately, that has been the case with almost all of these big, dumb, overpowered creatures, which is why Karakas is a $150 card now. Creating problems that need to be fixed with a card printed a decade and a half earlier and which can't be reprinted is just poor game management. Containment Priest is a step in the right direction.

Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur

So Necropotence and Mind Twist are banned, but this card does both? Hmmm. Oh, wait, it's legendary: Must be safe! The fact that this card was in the same environment as Mental Misstep and Force of Will was extremely problematic.

Mental Misstep

Thank goodness this spell goosed the format for only three months. Misstep battles were insipid and immediate, and part of the joy of deck building is variety. Having to automatically include Missteps, or really go out of your way to blank opposing Missteps, was perverse.

Griselbrand

Once upon a time, there was a card called Necropotence. It was awesome but OP. It got banned. Yawgmoth's Bargain was the fixed version. It was similarly awesome but similarly OP. It also got banned. Time went by and WOTC again ventured into the buncha-cards-for-life design space with Griselbrand. A killable Yawgmoth's Bargain seems OK in theory, but wires must've gotten crossed, because Griselbrand came out with the stats a regular fatty would have at such a mana cost. 7/7 flying and lifelink for 4BBBB is the kind of monster made for a core set. And then somehow Yawgmoth's Bargain found itself reincarnated within. Also, no one seemed to realize that if paying life to draw a bunch of cards is too powerful, then gaining the life right back afterward ... would obviously be even more -- nah, let's just print a ridiculously broken demon.

Progenitus

"Protection from everything" is an extremely lazy wording and a blatantly excessive ability. Progenitus is like an Unglued card that somehow was made legal. I'm OK with Emrakul and like the flavor of the annihilator ability, but annihilator six is too excessive. Four would have been plenty. I also don't feel it needs the protection from colored spells ability.

Enter the Infinite

From those who brought you big, dumb, overpowered creatures, this is the big, dumb, overpowered spell. Once again, this reads like an Unglued card. The fact that this was printed so soon after Omniscience was inexcusable.

Terminus

A one-mana Wrath of God. It's conditional, sure, but it happens to fit perfectly with cards you're playing already: stuff like Brainstorm and Ponder and Sensei's Divining Top. WOTC can be so exasperating. They say that creatures got a raw deal and need to be powered up on par with spells, and then they print a nuke for creatures that even hits cards that used to prey on control decks, like Ichorid and Bloodghast and Thrun, the Last Troll. The Miracle mechanic is a lousy one in itself, making topdecks even more impactful, and the "in hand but not obviously in hand" aspect adds unnecessary confusion. At least the mechanic is leagues better than flip cards.

Jace, the Mind Sculptor

I don't find Jace heinous like the other cards on this list, but fate-sealing is overpowered, and it's BS that he has four abilities. Killing a Jace is one of the most gratifying things for me. I personally think that Jace either should not have had the Brainstorm ability or should not have had a win-the-game ultimate, because if you are Brainstorming every turn, you are probably winning the game anyway.

Admiral_Arzar

12-18-2014, 02:53 AM

Some things I like:

LED
Dark Ritual
High Tide (& Time Spiral, of course)
Aluren
AEther Vial
Life from the Loam
Cabal Therapy
Smokestack
Moat
Misthollow Griffin
Hymn

And plenty more. I like a lot of things in Legacy, which is why I keep coming back despite the obvious flaws in the format. As for things I hate:

Delver of Secrets
Counterbalance
Griselbrand/Emrakul/Omniscience
Gitaxian Probe
Terminus
True-Name Nemesis
Jace

Delver is the most overpowered offensive one-drop ever, and it's blue. Enough said. I have always hated Counterbalance, the lock is too easy to assemble and unlike Chalice/Trinisphere it doesn't force you to abstain from playing the best cards the format offers. Griselbrand and the other dumb high-cost bullshit printed lately turned a fun and interesting card (Show and Tell) into a boring, derpy combo deck that dodges most of the hate traditional combo decks have issues with while being far easier to pilot. IMO it is better for the format if strong combo decks are difficult to pilot. Gitaxian Probe has removed the mystery from Legacy. As someone who likes to play fringe decks, it's pretty difficult to surprise your opponent when they often have perfect information for next to no cost on turn one. Terminus and TNN together put the final nails in aggro's coffin. Aggressive decks need intense amounts of disruption and usually blue to have a shot against this nonsense, not to mention color pie arguments for TNN. While I have played plenty of Jace in my day, I hate that he has functionally pushed non-blue control decks out of the meta. Most such strategies are very good at killing creatures but have very few answers to Jace and thus fold to him.

Bed Decks Palyer

12-18-2014, 03:35 AM

I think we can play any interactive games in other format, but only legacy or vintage allows people to do such crazy things, which may be appealing to some playeres like me...
That's why it's sad that the format looks like it looks.

Wild Nacatl (I really hated this card in the past, but when zoo was gone I really miss it now)
Any planeswalkers ( cannot get used to this kind of thing when I was back to mtg in 2010 after a 4 years break)
Before anything else: I share your view on PWs.
Thing I hate about Nacatl is that it's one more daft creature - cat warrior. There are only so many creatures - cats without the added malus of being anthropomorphic/genic buxom half-cat, half-punkess. I wanna play with cats, I'd even resign on old frame, but most of them are ugly, all the Leonin Shinkanzen and Leonin Pikatchu, etc.

Cats! Speaking of them, I like these cats:
Jungle Lion
Loam Lion
Fleecemane Lion
Pride of Lions (lol, all the lions...)
Noble Panther
Fleetfoot Panther (for the effect only, though)

Ok, but lets move to Eternal pool (not that we cannot play Slash Panther or Steppe Lynx):

I like (in no particular order):
- fetchlands. There's something sooo elegant about them, and they allow so many things and decks. I believe that they are too easy to use, and they should have been made with "2life, tap, sac:" instead, but they're still beautiful. I'm glad that WotC finished the cycle of enemy fetchlands back in ZEN. I also wish that they'd finish the Mirage cycle.
- non-blue draw engines. I mean... also non-Griselbrand draw engines. Simply put: anything that isn't exactly easy to build, be it LftL (durdly, depends on graveyard), Enchantress/AdN (needs to build the deck around it), Dark Confidant (toughness of 1!), Phyrexian Arena (takes a whole eternity before it does something), Sylvan Library plus Abundance (two card combo that won't win the game on spot), Thieving Magpie (or rather Ophidian or even Ohran Viper) that needs to connect, Sword of the Respective Ability, Lifeopotence, stupid cmc5+ tomes in MUD, of course: Howling Mine*.
- symmetrical mass destruction used in asymmetrical decks, like Rack Balance, Creaturegeddon, Tings, Wildfire, *cough*Cascabalance*cough*. I consider Tings as one of the most elegant and interesting decks in all of Magic, and I especially like the usage of the otherwise awful cipt lands; speaking of the non-basic lands...
- ...I'm a great sucker for non-basic lands, namely those with Alexander's art and/or those that allow some interesting strategy. Not that the INV cipt commons are Legacy playable, but lets say Sol lands, Grove of the BWs, Wasteland, Cavern, etc. I love them all.
- big dudes. Ok, Goyf is stupid, I admit it, but I still like it. And there are many more I love(d) to play with, be it KotR, Terravore, Erhnam Djinn, Werebear, Mystic Enforcer, Exalted Angel, Serra Angel, Eternal Dragon, Countryside Crusher,
- I love interesting decks like DnT (I'm a great fan of prison decks, although this is platonic love, and I also don't really enjoy playing against them) or Dredge. Seriously, Dredge is nice.

I won't write what I dislike. "Flamewars rarely start with the post on how much you love something. On the other hand, posts on how much you hate something rarely end up in anything else than flamewar."
Lets say I won't write a lot about Griselbrand, Emrakul or TNN.

_________________
*) Ahh... the memories. I remember when we were young (and I'm serious, this happened two decades ago) when we played a four-men Magic and three of us had RG Zoo. Every time we played Kird Ape, attacked with Kird Ape, played Giant Growth or Blood Lust on Kird Ape, burned down opponents Kird Ape or had our Kird Ape burned, we've screamed like a monkey "uh-uh-uh-uh-aaah-aaah-aaah, uh-uh-uh!" until the lgs owner threatened to throw us out.
There was something sick about drawing seven to ten cards due to all the Howlnig Mines... and being immediatelly hit all across the board by double Storm Seeker, triple Fork.

edit:

The Sword cycle
Equipment is a good thing. Enchantments were frustrating because they let you get 2-for-1'd all the time. Having a piece of weaponry remaining on the battlefield to be picked up by another creature is a very flavorful game mechanic. I do think Batterskull is considerably overpowered and definitely should not have a bounce ability, and there's no way Jitte needs three abilities. I like the Sword cycle due to the rich mythology of swords (Excalibur, The Sword in the Stone, etc.). Sword of the Ages and Runesword were cool-looking but lacked the power befitting a legend. The Sword cycle has just the right power level, I feel: epic but not busted.
This. All of it.
edit edit: That whole post i brilliant, esp. the "hate" part.

mlschuma

12-18-2014, 02:01 PM

Not at all current or up-to-date, but Legacy format cards that are my likes/dislikes shortened for brevity or uniqueness:

Favorites:

Stifle - Flexible utility card that has a target in against almost every deck and a surprising power level. I've probably won more games off this card for off-the-wall deployments than any other card in Magic.

Parallax Tide - A card obsoleted by the sands of time, it's pretty much faded out of existence with better 4cmc blue stuff. But I get a perverse joy out of weird prison effects and land destruction, which Parallax Tide offers both. Usually the most important thing brought back by any Replenish I've ever casted.

Replenish - Oh, Attunement + Replenish, ye olde broken card advantage of yore. How I wish that was a viable deck.

Wild Mongrel - Make cards change zones at will? Flashy Arrogant Wurms? 1cmc counterspells? Beef with Life from the Loam? Too much fun.

Lion's Eye Diamond - Broken build-around that makes two of my favorite decks (storm and dredge) just sing.

Seismic Assault - Lands into value! Incredible fun with Life from the Loam.

Life from the Loam - Wonky build-around card that rewards a player for using lands to grind value and makes a deck difficult to interact with.

Sundering Titan - Mega robots smashing everything? I'll take it. Swapping Titans with Goblin Welder? Hilarious. My fatty of choice for as long as it's been printed.

Tangle Wire - See: Parallax Tide

Disciple of the Vault - Aggro to combo in the blink of an eye, I'm going to throw robots at you until you die!

Dislikes:

Any current S&T piece - Flying Lifelinking Bargains? While Bargain is illegal, un-fun. 15/15 flying, pro-spells, and annihilator? Man, I sure do love all that interactive creature combat, wizards.

Tarmogoyf - Single-handedly invalidated almost every creature printed prior to him. Huge and cheap with the only investment being: play magic.

True-Name Nemesis - Like Tarmogoyf, only dumber. I'm not one to really care about creature combat, but this fish ruins that whole axis of the game if he gets past the stack.

All planeswalkers - probably the number one thing keeping the game from being fun. Multi-faceted, recurring advantages that can finish a game on their own. You used to actually build whole decks around to get that kind of value, usually at a cost or with a drawback. Now you can just drop a 3cmc Bottomless Pit/Smokestack/Whims of the Fates or a 4cmc repeatable Fateseal/Brainstorm/Unsummon/Leyline-Helm Combo.

Rivfader

12-19-2014, 05:12 AM

I like flavourfull decks. Decks that unite cards that aren't particularly good on their own.
So basically here's a list of cards, which have a deck built around them. And which I like very much, because they produce unique decks.

- Painter's Servant. because non blue combo is cool and original. And this one preys on blue spells and nonbasics which give it extra points. If I had the money, monored Painter would be the deck i'd put together.
- Life from the Loam: A 1-card engine that provides cardadvantage. Specific, as it forces you to play lots of lands. But it's plain evil to wastelock your opponent (and have a Tabernacle follow up).
- Goblin Recruiter: I love the fact that it gives red some form of carddraw, and that it fueled a red Tier 1 archetype. Cause lets be honest, red's options are mostly limited to burn.
- Chalice of the void: a card that forces you to break the symmetrie to gain advantage. Locking your opponent out of playing 1cc spells is just plain sadistic, but the drawback of avoiding all of legacy's 1cc powerspells is painful as well.
- Green Sun's Zenith: way to go wizards. It feels like being on the same powerlevel as brainstorm, but with restrictions (green creatures) which forces you to build around it. More cards like this please.
- Gamble / Infernal Tutor: Legacy had most of it's tutors banned, except those with huge drawbacks. But if you bend this in your favor (-> lands/storm), you basically have a 1or2-mana demonic tutor.
- Glistener Elf: Actually the infect mechanic in general. and how this noncompetitive mechanic was turned around in one of Legacy's Tier 1 decks. I also like decks that abuse old cards from Legends or Revised, in this case Berserk.
- Primeval Titan: this card is simply busted, 6 mana for a 6/6 trampler and two lands out of the library. And again and again, each attack phase over. Manaramping into this Giant and Eldrazi Legends feels reminds me of Urza's Mine, Tower and power Plant.

I do not like overpowered cards with nonspecific effects. You can combine them in some configurations and end up with a strong deck, but they all feel very similar and lacking creativity, and in the end, become boring to play against. Unfortunately, they make up for a very large piece of the meta.

- Blue shell cards: brainstorm / ponder / gitaxian probe / force of will / daze / Treasure Cruise / Delver.
- Stoneforge Mystic / batterskull / Umezawa's Jitte
- True-Name Nemesis
- Tarmogoyf
- Young Pyromancer

I the combo-area, I respect Belcher, Storm, Elves, they all are pretty tightly built and are flavourfull because of that. Infernal tutor combined with Lion's eye diamond is simply sweet. I have less love for these following cards:

- show and Tell: insert random fatty, usually Grizzlebrand and Emrakul. Or Omniscience / Enter the Infinite, which are in my opinion incredibily uncreative.
- entomb / reanimate: insert random fatty, usually Grizzlebrand. If it werent for Emrakul's reshuffle effect, he'd be here too.