SCD: Grisly Salvage and Deck: Jund

[AngryTroll]

Although blue clearly has the best card selection and card advantage engines of the format, Elves! highlightes that in the right deck, green can offer card advantage engines that are even better than Brainstorm. Even blue decks like Team America splash some number of Sylvan Library(ies) to complement the blue cantrips, and Maverick, Nic Fit, and Sylvan Plug all often run some number of Libraries in the 75. Green Sun's Zenith is fantastic in Nic Fit and Elves.

I recently saw Mental Note and Thought Scour mentioned as possible inclusions in UR Delver because they fuel Treasure Cruise and Young Pyromancer. I've seen Vision Charm used to set up Tombstalkers and Phyrexian Dreadnought This got me thinking about another card that always seemed to be almost playable: Grisly Salvage. The only catch is that Grisly Salvage isn't ideal in a Delver deck, because those decks are light on creatures and lands, heavy on instants, and heavy on cantrips.

Grisly Salvage is fantastic at setting up Deathrite Shaman, Grim Lavamancer, Tarmogoyf, and Tombstalker. I've been playing with this Jund deck lately, and I thought it's far enough along to present and ask for ideas:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Huntmaster of the Fells

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Grisly Salvage
3 Sylvan Library

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Engineered Explosives

2 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
3 Bayou
1 Badlands

-----Sideboard-----
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Thoughtseize
3 Slaughter Games
1 Gaddock Teag
2 Krosan Grip
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

I originally had two Tombstalkers in the maindeck, but that makes every threat dependent upon the graveyard. I figured the Tombstalkers would be boarded out every game two, so I eventually cut them to free up maindeck and sideboard slots.

Tarmogoyf is huge in this deck; it has lots of instants, lands, and creatures, a handful of sorceries (CSZ and Therapy) which occasionally end up in the yard, even without Grisly Salvage, 3 high-impact enchantments, and a single artifact and planeswalker. I don't feel like the deck was diluted to fit in the artifact, enchantment, and planeswalker cardtypes, and they make Tarmogoyf massive.

Grisly Salvage and Grim Lavamancer have been very good together so far. The Lavamancer kills everything in the format (including players) except True Name Nemesis, Tarmogoyf, and deployed Batterskulls. Tarmogoyf is conveniently large enough to handle opposing germ tokens, and Grim Lavamancer paired with a Tarmogoyf kills opposing Tarmogoyfs. This all depends upon a stocked graveyard for the Lavamancer. Salvage also finds Cabal Therapies, which makes the 4 disruption spells go a little bit further than they would otherwise. Deathrite obviously appreciates the extra graveyard cards.

Scryb Ranger might not be worth a slot, but it's very synergistic with DRS, Grim Lavamancer, and Dryad Arbor. It's even good at granting Tarmogoyf pseudo-vigilance. Scooze is similarly fine but unexciting; when it's good, it's really good, but it's often mediocre.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the deck? My metagame is short on Combo, so I've been rewarded by setting up the deck to pray on fair decks. Should I make room for Thoughtseizes maindeck? Is Grim Lavamancer better than Punishing Fire? I think it's worth playing, at least; without the Groves the straight Jund Mana is much more stable, and I trade a weakness for targeted graveyard removal (Surgical) to a weakness for blanket graveyard removal (Nihil Spellbomb). On the plus side, Grisly Salvage helps recover from a Tormod's Crypt.

Are there any other decks that could benefit from Grisly Salvage? It's narrow in that it's not ideal in any Delver Shell, but I was impressed with how strong it's been in a deck designed to benefit from the card selection and the graveyard filling.

[Richard Cheese]

Man I love Grisly Salvage. I've been trying to build something around it since it came out, but haven't tried in Jund yet. Curious why you wouldn't run Punishing Fire/Grove though, just seems so good with Salvage, and generally very strong in the meta right now.

FWIW, I tried it in BUG right when it came out, and it was really good but eventually just got outclassed by other cards, and in an odd Junk brew with Bloodghast, KotR, Tombstalker, Therapy, and Lingering Souls. There was some cool synergy but it was too clunky and really susceptible to grave hate. Speaking of, you've touched on one of my biggest gripes with the format: the amount of excellent grave hate that's been printed recently. Decks that abused the yard like Aggro Loam and Dredge used to be able to prey on Blue decks, because even the almighty Brainstorm can't keep up with the amount of card advantage those decks can generate.

[iamajellydonut]

Man I love Grisly Salvage. I've been trying to build something around it since it came out, but haven't tried in Jund yet. Curious why you wouldn't run Punishing Fire/Grove though, just seems so good with Salvage, and generally very strong in the meta right now.

Because he's looking to have Grim Lavamancer serve the same role. However, I'm fairly confident that Punishing Fire is the correct choice.


There are three major problems with this plan unfortunately.
It forces you to over-invest in the graveyard, which makes already potent hate just that much stronger.

Grisly Salvage is limited to creatures and lands and things that interact with the graveyard such as Punishing Fire. This means you can't search up necessary tools such as Liliana of the Veil or Abrupt Decay.

It costs more than Brainstorm. All five colors have decent filter effects. Unfortunately, the general problem is that they all cost more than you're able to pay. There's an awfully large difference between 1cc and 2cc. And, unfortunately, because of this, Grisly Salvage will always be supplementary to cards like Sylvan Library.
I do like Grisly Salvage (and if you do manage to get it a home, I will be ecstatic), but I don't believe it's possible beyond Modern.

[Lemnear]

Grisly Goyf
Grisly Tombstalker
Grisly Loam

I think it has potential in a world of small creatures and Lightning Bolts especially for the non-blue decks like Jund :)

[Megadeus]

Grisly Goyf
Grisly Tombstalker
Grisly Loam

I think it has potential in a world of small creatures and Lightning Bolts especially for the non-blue decks like Jund :)

Sounds like the beginning to a sweet Sui Black deck.

[FoolofaTook]

You need to get more out of Grisly Salvage than just a turn 3 pick of creature or land off the top 5 of your library. Using it on either turn 2 or turn 3 at opponent's end of turn means that you did not tap mana on your own turn and thus gave up tempo to establish the card selection you're enjoying at that point. Most lists that would include Grisly Salvage have to tap out on turn 2 and turn 3 or they're going to get critically behind, particularly against the blue shell.

My suggestion would be that it works best in lists that proactively want to put powerful cards in the graveyard, particularly early on. I don't think it's best in a delve list because you gave up a lot of tempo to set up the 4 cards in the yard for your turn 3 play.

Punishing Fire, Life from the Loam, Cabal Therapy, Dread Return (Grisly Salvage can put Dread Return and it's target in the GY at the end of opponent's turn), Lingering Spirits, Worm Harvest, etc.

I think you want to use Grisly Salvage as a combo piece that also gives you good card selection early on in two key areas, lands and creatures.

If the primary purpose of Grisly Salvage is to setup your combos then you can accept it as a fixer of bad draws if that's what it comes too. Then even the B option on it is of value.

[Richard Cheese]

Oh, I was also trying it in a weird Necrotic Ooze deck. A lot of value creatures for Ooze to mimic like Mom, Fauna Shaman, DRS, Unburial Rites, and a singleton Griselbrand and Borborygmos for a combo kill. Kinda seemed like it had potential, but was slow and too easily disrupted.

I could see Salvage in Punishing Nic Fit too, you have plenty of mana to use it during your turn, Therapy, P. Fire, and Top gives you a better idea of what you'll potentially be losing. Problem (as usual) is what you'd cut from those lists. GSZ is just a better tutor, and you usually don't need to grab a land.

[(nameless one)]

You can also Grisly Salvage into Eternal Witness to Regrowth any card you didn't get from Salvaging

[FoolofaTook]

Oh, I was also trying it in a weird Necrotic Ooze deck. A lot of value creatures for Ooze to mimic like Mom, Fauna Shaman, DRS, Unburial Rites, and a singleton Griselbrand and Borborygmos for a combo kill. Kinda seemed like it had potential, but was slow and too easily disrupted.

I could see Salvage in Punishing Nic Fit too, you have plenty of mana to use it during your turn, Therapy, P. Fire, and Top gives you a better idea of what you'll potentially be losing. Problem (as usual) is what you'd cut from those lists. GSZ is just a better tutor, and you usually don't need to grab a land.

Necrotic Ooze just seems like it should be so good but it costs :1: too much. At :1::b::b: it would be playable in eternal formats, at :2::b::b: it is not.

I did what you did but in Jund colors and it was just a turn slow. Was going with Putrid Imp, Fauna Shaman, Phyrexian Devourer and Triskelion and was just that consistent turn slow to the win. Had Goyfs and Bobs as shaman bait and aggro plan B and it just didn't matter.

[FoolofaTook]

You can also Grisly Salvage into Eternal Witness to Regrowth any card you didn't get from Salvaging

Yeah, in the absence of Aether Vial that's kind of slow and you can only fit so much into the shell. It's probably better to have cards that you can just play out of the GY to avoid the tempo loss of playing a card to get another card back and then having to wait a turn to play the recovered spell.

[maharis]

Here is a deck I was tooling around with a bit after Khans came out. The idea was to turbo out delve creatures and blow up the board underneath them with deed. I also put in Chalice for STP. I think Lotus Petal made its way in because it's 2 mana towards delve in one turn or makes a turn one Chalice, and doesn't get blown up by Deed like mox diamond. Of course, Deed blows up Chalice too, which I believe was the "duh" moment that made me give this up.

Oh wait, Seal of Removal/Primordium might have been better than Deed because they get dug up by Commune and how many creatures are they landing with Chalice on one? Or even Wave of Terror. Ugh, I suck at this game. But hey, maybe there's something workable here.

2x Ancient Tomb
3x Bayou
1x Forest
4x Marsh Flats
2x Swamp
2x Treetop Village
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland

4x Commune with the Gods
3x Hymn to Tourach
1x Life from the Loam

1x Eternal Witness
4x Hooting Mandrills
4x Tombstalker

3x Abrupt Decay
4x Grisly Salvage

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Lotus Petal

4x Pernicious Deed
1x Strands of Night

Sideboard
1x Abrupt Decay
3x Bitterblossom
1x Deathmark
4x Faceless Butcher
2x Krosan Grip
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Toxic Deluge

[maharis]

Anyway, I also like this card.

On GY hate, if there's ever a time to go all in on it, now is it because RiP has to be low. You can play around Tormod's Crypt effects and Deathrite Shaman/Scooze a lot easier.

Deck in the OP needs some work, but seems mostly fine.

Richard Cheese, did you try a Haakon package in your deck?

[Richard Cheese]

Anyway, I also like this card.

On GY hate, if there's ever a time to go all in on it, now is it because RiP has to be low. You can play around Tormod's Crypt effects and Deathrite Shaman/Scooze a lot easier.

Deck in the OP needs some work, but seems mostly fine.

Richard Cheese, did you try a Haakon package in your deck?

No, but it is definitely a card I've looked up the price on many times. I did try Commune with Animate Dead and Necromancy, but it just felt like a slower, more disruptable Reanimator.

Really my favorite shell for Salvage so far was BUG Delver. I think I was running it as a 2 or 3-of right after RTR came out in a list with Deathrite, Tombstalker, and Snapcaster. I may have to go back and revisit that with Treasure Cruise now in the mix. Sucks that the best option is probably still Blue, but if you're going to bin 5 cards, I think you're going to be hard pressed to find something better to do with them than draw 3 more.

[rufus]

... Sucks that the best option is probably still Blue, but if you're going to bin 5 cards, I think you're going to be hard pressed to find something better to do with them than draw 3 more.

If you salvage a fetchland it could easily be 6.

Salvage only gets you creatures and lands, so it's unlikely to find Abrupt Decay or any of the other utility elements. That seems like it could leave you 'digging dead' regularly.

Street Wraith or Retrace, Flashback, or even Unearth might help with that.

[Megadeus]

You can also Grisly Salvage into Eternal Witness to Regrowth any card you didn't get from Salvaging

Found my new modern deck. Sounds sweet

[Fatal]

I would think about Shriekmaw as searchable removal

[TsumiBand]

The problem with "on-purpose" Delving for profit is that invariably the setup spells don't do anything on their own. There are only so many Taigam's Schemings or Grisly Salvages you can draw before you realize that your deck doesn't actually do anything. Compare this to the usual cantrip suite, which is at least actively digging for non-specific cards and probably getting you to throw fetchlands and other Delve-food into the bin as an incidental effect instead of "because I decided to durdle".

I mean I want to do the Instant speed Threshold dance and punch face with like Junk Thresh and have like Mystic Enforcer and Werebear getting real pissed off at the opponent. I super badly do. It's awful. Just, it's a tough row to hoe if you're on-purpose throwing a bunch of cards in the trash and you just keep drawing into more graveyard dumpster cards and realize that they aren't actually business spells.

I agree with the idea about Retrace though, in fact I think I favor it over Delve spells. Really a few Mandrills is probably okay but after a while you just realize your deck is a moving car and you're tossing your deck out the window; in Christmas Land, with something like LtfL + Raven's Crime you can force the opponent into topdeck mode and they can't really do anything about it. At least if you're going to make the graveyard a resource, it should probably be on repeater instead of the one-shot Delve thing unless you're actually just winning by Delving that turn (see also, drawing 3 or drawing the best 2 of the top 7...)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Taigam's Schemings

At first I thought that it's some kind of joke, that it's someone's nickname or what, similar to say Biggus Dickus. Part of the problem might be that I read it like [ʃiːminz]...

I'm afraid that Tsumi is right, it might be too much of a do-nothing card, and I also dislike the idea to fill your grave just to eat it. I'd try something different, like centering the deck around retrace mechanic, LftL and such. Not that the delve is bad per se, but having your Mandrils StPed right after you played a cmc2 "cantrip" and the ape ate your gy seems pretty bad.
Also, contrary to Ux decks you have no way how to prevent RiP (at least topdecked) or Bojuka Bog, and it owns you hard.



I mean I want to do the Instant speed Threshold dance and punch face with like Junk Thresh and have like Mystic Enforcer and Werebear getting real pissed off at the opponent. I super badly do. It's awful. Just, it's a tough row to hoe if you're on-purpose throwing a bunch of cards in the trash and you just keep drawing into more graveyard dumpster cards and realize that they aren't actually business spells.
This is so true. Namely the Mystic Enforcer part.
With retrace spells you'd be playing a deck that has a solid plan and uses an extended library, a bit akin to what Friggorid used to do. You won't be extremely dependant on grave, but you may use it as an additional library. Once the post-board hate shows up, you need to have some alternative plan (mabye not exactly transformational sb), with some ugly trick in sleeve. Riftsweeper?

[ironclad8690]

Do you guys think we could board into a natural order package to counter the yard hate that comes in g2 and 3?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Do you guys think we could board into a natural order package to counter the yard hate that comes in g2 and 3?

Grafdigger's Cage. I'm not sure.

[Richard Cheese]

Since the main problems with Salvage are being restricted to certain card types and binning everything else, it might be worth looking at it in lists that really focus on those card types, especially decks that traditionally take advantage of the yard. GWb Maverick is primarily creatures and lands, RG Combo lands is almost all lands, and both get huge value out of their graveyard. The problem, as always, is what to cut...especially when jamming in Salvage means cutting some of the cards it could find.

[rufus]

Since the main problems with Salvage are being restricted to certain card types and binning everything else, it might be worth looking at it in lists that really focus on those card types, especially decks that traditionally take advantage of the yard. GWb Maverick is primarily creatures and lands, RG Combo lands is almost all lands, and both get huge value out of their graveyard. The problem, as always, is what to cut...especially when jamming in Salvage means cutting some of the cards it could find.

I wonder about taking the same sort of approach, but with a 'BG Enchantments' game plan using Commune with the Gods and Kruphix's Insight, but that list looks very different.

[Barook]

If you run multiple copies of Sylvan Library and GSZ, you must run at least one Courser of Kruphix (two would be better, though). Both parts are good on their own and take over the game rather quickly if both are together.

I also agree with running PF in that kind of shell over Lavamancer.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

I would guess that's a Modern thing. It sounds like some powerful manipulation though. I'll probably proxy up something akin to this to mess around with.

[apple713]

its possible the cards you are missing that could add significant value to a grisly salvage strategy are loyal retainers and treasure cruise

salvage drops 5 cards into grave and replaces itself so thats almost an instant treasure cruise.

[Esper3k]

I've played Grisly Salvage in an Eva Green shell with Necropolis Fiend, Bloodghasts, and Cabal Therapy. I'm not quite certain how great it is but it was a heck of a lot of fun.

[AngryTroll]

Thanks for all the feedback!

I tried Grisly Salvage as a casual card to set up Evershrike, and filled the deck with Shriekmaws and Commune with the Gods and other terrible things, and it was rough even for a casual deck. That's part of what shaped my thinking for this deck; I've been holding Grisly Salvage as the last card in my hand and using it to grab either a Goyf or Lavamancer or to find a land to allow me to GSZ for a Huntmaster of the Fells. I don't think I've ever tried to cast it on turn two, because the tempo loss is too steep.

Punishing Fire might be much better than Grim Lavamancer. I like the improved manabase the Lavamancer allows you to run, and Lavamancer is much less expensive (except in terms of cards in the graveyard), but Punishing Fire might just be better because it doesn't have summoning sickness and isn't so fragile. That also allows you to run Golgari Charm without killing half of your creatures.

Is Courser of Kruphix good enough for Legacy? I had it in here originally but ended up cutting it for higher-powered creatures. It seemed super strong with Sylvan Library but otherwise only alright.

If the Lavamancers get cut, I'd be tempted to run a Nimble Mongoose as a GSZ-able threat, or a pair of Tombstalkers to finish the curve.

[AngryTroll]

I've actually had pretty great success with the deck in my local shop for the last month. My shop is what I like to think of as a small store Legacy scene: All of the major decks are represented, but all of the tier two and tier three decks are played as well. With 11-14 people each week, there will usually be 10-12 different decks, including UR Delver, Elves, ANT, High Tide, multiple flavors of Stoneblade, Death and Taxes, and everything else: Zoo, Deadguy, Merfolk, Ru burn, you name it. I'm 9-2 with the deck (which, admittedly, doesn't mean anything except that it can beat random stuff), but it's been playing really well.

Here's the list I'm running:
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sylvan Library
3 Grisly Salvage

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Huntmaster of the Fells

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
3 Taiga
1 Badlands
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp

-----Sideboard-----
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Zuran Orb (Ru burn and Ur Delver are running Price of Progress)
4 Duress
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Engineered Plague
2 Krosan Grip
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

I'm still hunting for a fourth Sylvan Library, but I'm honestly not positive that the fourth one is needed maindeck. I like that with Lavamancer over Punishing Fire my manabase does not need Groves, and the Lavamancer is a body for Therapy and demands removal. Grisly Salvage has actually been very good-it's not a turn two play, but it's a great turn three play after a Goyf or a Lavamancer, it's a great topdeck, and it helps dig for Therapy. Four was overkill, but three seems pretty solid.

Does anyone have any suggestions for the list?

[FoolofaTook]

@AngryTroll

Find a way to get to 60 cards, there are 61 in your list. I'm guessing this is because you've been tuning it a lot and some of the cards float in and out and you just accidentally left an extra floater in when you posted it.

I'd pull a Grim Lavamancer or a Huntmaster of the Fells I think.

[AngryTroll]

@AngryTroll

Find a way to get to 60 cards, there are 61 in your list. I'm guessing this is because you've been tuning it a lot and some of the cards float in and out and you just accidentally left an extra floater in when you posted it.

I'd pull a Grim Lavamancer or a Huntmaster of the Fells I think.

Yup, I'm still tuning it, so I want to draw some of the cards more often to evaluate if they're actually good or only good as situational GSZ targets. The 61st card is either Courser #2, Huntmaster #2, Salvage #3, Lavamancer #4, or the Explosives (especially if Young Pyromancer stops being a major player in the metagame). If I were forced to cut a card right now I'd go with Courser #2. I don't play Standard or Modern, so I'd never cast Courser and only cast Huntmaster a few times before I started working on this deck, but they come with solid pedigrees.

Huntmaster has been particularly good, especially with all of the instants and alongside DRS and Lavamancer. Huntmaster was much, much worse in my Nic Fit build, which was jam packed with sorcery-speed spells.