What should "define" the Legacy format?

[H]

This is an honest question, one to which I don't know if we have a clear and concise answer to.

We all know how Standard is defined, it is defined most often by it's current legal sets, not it's ban list. It's the "just new stuff" format, obviously.

Other formats have clear "identities" even if they aren't very good/liked. For example, Modern has a pretty clear identity, first, no cards are on the Reserve List. Second, (almost) every card was printed with the new frame. Third, the format is predicated on a pretty aggressive banning of most combo enablers (or at least, "fast combo").

Vintage is defined by it's use of both a banned and restricted list. Mostly by the restriction of very powerful cards that would be clearly banned in any other format. Indeed, it is the fact that "almost anything" goes in Vintage, just as a one-of. Indeed, as Wizards has posited, there are pillars as well, those being very powerful cards that define almost every type of deck in the format. They are Dark Ritual, Mana Drain, Null Rod, Mishra's Workshop and Bazaar of Baghdad. There are always meta game shifts and while Mana Drain (for example) is often used sparingly (or not at all) in decks that end up in that "pillar" the idea is really that of using these cards to give you an idea of meta-archetypes.

One could rephrase these pillars as Fast Combo (Dark Ritual), Blue (Mana Drain), aggro-control (Null Rod), artifact prison/aggro (Mishra's Workshop), and Graveyard combo (Bazaar of Baghdad). There can often be some melding, mixing, or amalgamation of these things, decks rarely only fit in to one "pillar," often because the "defining" cards are so powerful, most decks want access to as many as they can get. Vintage has so many powerful cards, often decks are defined or differentiated by what cards it doesn't run. For example, there are many Blue decks run in Vintage due to the power level of many cards in the color, for example, Tinker, Ancestral Recall, Mana Drain. The question becomes, for many of these decks, what not to run? No matter what your Blue deck wants to do, it probably wants to draw 3 at Instant-speed for :u:.

To me that is the defining point of Vintage: cards so powerful, you need good reasons not to run them. Indeed, a large criticism of Vintage is how homogeneous decks tend to look, since most decks begin with the same "core" of restricted card. Indeed, most do, but it's what is done in the margins that really "defines" what the deck is. For example, an Oath deck and a TurboTezz deck might only differ by 15 cards, but the way the deck plays is quite different. It's been likened to the difference in DNA, say from Humans to Chimpanzees. Sure, 99% may be the same, but that 1% makes a very big difference.

I think I have belabored what I see as defining Vintage enough, so lets look at Legacy.

This is where the problem I have comes in. I simply cannot find what should really "define" Legacy. Is it the card pool? The ban list? The meta-game?

What would become Legacy was originally called Classic Restricted. I believe the original announcement was in a Duelist magazine from sometime near May or June of 1996, but I don't own it/can't find it online. I didn't play competitively at this time, but the Banned and Restricted list was originally tied to both the Vintage (Type 1) and Standard (Type 2) lists:


OK... According to the new Duellist, Type 1.5 is going to become an
official tournament form (indeed, they're going to play it at Origins,
evidentally). Here's the question:

Is the "banned" list for Type 1.5:
1. The banned and restricted lists from BOTH Type 1 and Type 2 (so
Feldon's Cane and Black Vise are both banned in Type 1.5)
2. The banned and restricted lists from just ONE of Type 1 and Type 2
(so either Recall is banned and Black Vise isn't, or Black Vise is banned and
Recall isn't)
3. All cards that are banned or restricted in both Type 1 and Type 2 (so
Recall and Black Vise are BOTH legal, since at least one tournament form doesn't
restrict them).

In 1997, this was changed:


DCI CLASSIC-RESTRICTED (TYPE I.5) FORMAT

2.5 CLASSIC-RESTRICTED DECK CONSTRUCTION:

Classic-Restricted tournament decks may consist of cards from all editions of Magic, any extension of the basic set, all promotional cards released by Wizards of the Coast, Inc. and all limited-edition or stand-alone expansion sets.

2.5.1 Effective April 1, The Banned List for Classic-Restricted Tournaments

NOTE: Previously, cards that appeared by card title on the Restricted and Banned Lists for either Classic or Standard tournaments were also banned in Classic-Restricted play. This resulted in considerable confusion, and raised questions about the continued viability of this tournament environment. In order to both clarify the rule and maintain the viability of the Classic- Restricted tournament environment, the DCI will make changes to the Classic- Restricted Banned List independent from any other Restricted or Banned Lists. Black Vise and Strip Mine are therefore added independently to this list, and not as a consequence of their appearance on any other Banned or Restricted List. Consequently, they will remain on this list when Fourth Edition(TM) leaves the Standard environment and is replaced by Fifth Edition. Land Tax, however, will not appear on this list at that time.

The DCI will announce changes to this list four times per year, on March 1, June 1, September 1, and December 1. The Banned List for Classic- Restricted tournaments, effective April 1, 1997, is as follows:

Any card not specifically permitted by rule 2.5 Any ante card contained in any newly released card set Amulet of Quoz (IA) Ancestral Recall Balance Berserk Black Lotus Black Vise Braingeyser Bronze Tablet Candelabra of Tawnos (AQ) Channel Chaos Orb Contract from Below Copy Artifact Darkpact Demonic Attorney Demonic Tutor Divine Intervention (LE) Falling Star (LE) Fastbond Feldon's Cane (AQ) Fork Ivory Tower Jeweled Bird Library of Alexandria (AN) Maze of Ith (DK) Mind Twist Mirror Universe (LE) Mishra's Workshop (AQ) Mox Emerald Mox Jet Mox Pearl Mox Ruby Mox Sapphire Rebirth Recall (LE) Regrowth Shahrazad (AN) Sol Ring Strip Mine Tempest Efreet Time Walk Timetwister Timmerian Fiends (HM) Underworld Dreams (LE) Wheel of Fortune Zuran Orb (IA)

At some point that I am not clear about, the policy was changed again, back to having a link between the Type 1 and 1.5 lists.

Here is where Wizards announces actual Legacy in 2003 though, not 1.5:


“Type 1.5”

We finally split the B&R lists up, and gave “Type 1.5” its own banned list. I will state for the record that this list is a work in progress. I have no doubt that our efforts move the format in the direction we feel it needs to go, but at the same time I'm sure that all of our research, testing, and discussion did not nail down all the problems that a format with this many cards is bound to have. Creating a new format--which is basically what is happening here--will require time and effort, and with that we will need your understanding an patience. We will be revisiting this list over the next year as a metagame forms around it.

Players from all over the world have been calling for such a separation for years, claiming that a format cannot hope to have its own identity if the legality of its card pool is a slave to another (very different) format. In the past, we felt that the format would never be popular enough to necessitate burdeing players with another list of banned cards to memorize, so we were content to essentially manage both Vintage and “Type 1.5” with one list. But with the impending rotation of the Extended format next year, we felt the need to make sure there was a reasonable format available where players could use their old cards (everything from dual lands to Ice Age cards to Rebels) that was not just a toned-down version of Vintage. We tried to strike the fine balance between accessibility and, well, balance of play.

What are our plans for the format? Our Organized Play department is still sorting that out. We do hope to use “Type 1.5” more somehow, especially after Extended rotates in 2005. Exactly where and how often is still being discussed. In the meantime, I urge shop owners to give the format a try by running smaller tournaments at your stores. We'd love to hear about them.

The full banned list for “Type 1.5”:

Amulet of Quoz
Ancestral Recall
Balance
Bazaar of Baghdad
Black Lotus
Black Vise
Bronze Tablet
Channel
Chaos Orb
Contract from Below
Darkpact
Demonic Attorney
Demonic Consultation
Demonic Tutor
Dream Halls
Earthcraft
Entomb
Falling Star
Fastbond
Frantic Search
Goblin Recruiter
Grim Monolith
Gush
Hermit Druid
Illusionary Mask
Jeweled Bird
Land Tax
Library of Alexandria
Mana Crypt
Mana Drain
Mana Vault
Memory Jar
Metalworker
Mind Over Matter
Mind Twist
Mind's Desire
Mishra's Workshop
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Necropotence
Oath of Druids
Rebirth
Replenish
Skullclamp
Sol Ring
Strip Mine
Tempest Efreet
Time Spiral
Time Walk
Timetwister
Timmerian Fiends
Tinker
Tolarian Academy
Vampiric Tutor
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Worldgorger Dragon
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will

What's on there:

Ante cards and dexterity cards: These two categories include cards like Contract from Below and Chaos Orb. It is generally accepted that cards such as these have no place in tournament Magic.

The Power Nine and other cards that are restricted in Vintage on their own merits: This section includes stuff like fast mana (Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Channel, Tolarian Academy, etc.), card drawing (Wheel of Fortune, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Windfall, Necropotence, etc.), and lots of other cards that have proven to be problematically strong, such as Strip Mine, Dream Halls, Mind Twist, Balance, Mind's Desire, and Yawgmoth's Will.

Dominant cards that have been considered for restriction in Vintage: Here's where the list departs from what it was previously. Some cards exist at power levels that are on the brink of acceptability for even Vintage, which makes them dominant in “Type 1.5.” Worldgorger Dragon, Bazaar of Baghdad, Mishra's Workshop, Mana Drain, and Illusionary Mask all fit into this category. Note, too, that the power level of many of these cards, combined with their scarcity, presented a major barrier to entry to the format for many players.

Cards that are/were banned in Extended: Not every card that has ever been banned in Extended is banned in this new format, but we felt the most powerful ones had no place here. These include Earthcraft, Goblin Recruiter, Hermit Druid, Land Tax, Oath of Druids, Replenish, and newly exiled Skullclamp and Metalworker. With “1.5” now a little less like Vintage and a little more like Extended, it makes sense that the banned list is a compromise between the two. Most of these cards are very cheap combo enablers that are hard to defend against.

What's not on there:

The second-tier fast mana cards: We left off cards like Ancient Tomb, Dark Ritual, Mox Diamond, and Lotus Petal to give aggressive creature and combo decks the tools they'd need to battle control. Time will tell if this is too much fast mana, but it is a good place to start.

The second-tier tutors: Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor, and Demonic Consultation may be banned, but Mystical and Enlightened Tutor are both legal.

Various other powerful cards: Fact or Fiction, Survival of the Fittest, Regrowth, and Goblin Lackey are all extraordinarily powerful cards that we decided to make legal. We want to keep the format healthy and balanced without making it overly weak and without having a banned list that is five pages long. These cards (as well as a few others) will be on our radar as this new format finds its legs. Hopefully they will add excitement without upsetting the proverbial apple cart.

There you have it. Hopefully these changes make you happy and tempt you to give one or more of these formats a second look. Our goal is long-term health for all of our formats, and I believe we've taken some great steps in accomplishing that with this announcement.

So, there still remains the main question. What should define Legacy? Is it the ban list? What should be our guide? Even though it's been a pretty long time we've had Legacy, what is our format's identity and how should it be defined?

[Anen]

Legacy : the only format where you can play the full playset of Brainstorm.

[Bobmans]

Legacy: the only format where you can legaly cheat in the walking Yawgmoth's Bargain (thanks WotC for that awesomeness) and still loose.

[H]

Legacy : the only format where you can play the full playset of Brainstorm.

Thanks for contributing.


Legacy: the only format where you can legaly cheat in the walking Yawgmoth's Bargain (thanks WotC for that awesomeness) and still loose.

I've seen it and had it happen to me before in Vintage. I also imagine it's happened in Modern too, although I don't play that enough to know.

[death]

ABU dual lands with occasional Maze of Ith, Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, The Abyss, Candelabra of Tawnos and Chains of Mephistopheles.

Last but not least, legacy will not be legacy without the broken cards from Urza block.

Basically any awesome card with old card frame would be a cornerstone, anything that isn't reprinted in Standard that is on the Reserved list.

[Dice_Box]

I think what defines Legacy is the ability to play with Duals, old mistakes and answers all while having the most egregious mistakes spoken for. I think what defines Legacy is its ability to answer its own problems with the cards it has on offer. Its ability to self regulate and rotate, to change and grow all while offering a chance to play with some of the best and worst printings of Magic's history.

What defines Legacy? It's self regulating nature.

[Bobmans]

I've seen it and had it happen to me before in Vintage. I also imagine it's happened in Modern too, although I don't play that enough to know.

I forgot those are formats to. Altough Modern i cant imagine even playing it. Since Legacy allows me to play with cards from sets when i started mtg (Urza Block). The same kinda counts for vintage but somehow power 9 is still out of grasp, number of tournaments and players are extremely low and vintage kinda forces you in playing the same type of deck.

[iamajellydonut]

Last but not least, legacy will not be legacy without the broken cards from Urza block.

Even though their use is a relatively recent "innovation" and can be more credited to the other halves of the combo, but ok.

[H]

Basically any awesome card with old card frame would be a cornerstone, anything that isn't reprinted in Standard that is on the Reserved list.

Huh? So Moxes? It seems to be your definition of Legacy is just cards you like, which doesn't really give me much insight in to the format itself.


I think what defines Legacy is the ability to play with Duals, old mistakes and answers all while having the most egregious mistakes spoken for. I think what defines Legacy is its ability to answer its own problems with the cards it has on offer. Its ability to self regulate and rotate, to change and grow all while offering a chance to play with some of the best and worst printings of Magic's history.

What defines Legacy? It's self regulating nature.

Well, what defines "egregious?" Is Mystical Tutor egregious?

I think all the non-rotating formats are to some degree self-regulating. In fact, I think Vintage is the most self-regulating, since Workshop is a pretty hard punisher of any deck that wants to durtle around.

[nedleeds]

The formats defining feature is: no restricted list and only a banned list.
The a/b dual lands are the defining cards of legacy because they provide the base to build decks of any color, they are so special they even dragged them through extended despite the rest of revised rotating. After that they were left in legacy (1.5) and vintage (1) alone.

The first distinction is the most important because it fundamentally changes the way you build decks in legacy vs. vintage. If you accept the concept of vintage you accept the presence of a couple of dozen cards that are absurdly powerful, you accept that many of those cards if drawn may make it very difficult to lose (or win if your opponent has them). This impacts vintage deck building in an overt way, the cards are so absurd you are handicapping yourself by not playing at least some of them (Black Lotus, you can argue that you should be playing it even in a deck with 4 Null Rods). There are whole deck building frameworks that prey on the fact that most other decks will play these absurd tutors, accelerants and draw effects.

Legacy isn't burdened with the restricted list. It shouldn't be a format with such obvious inclusions in deck building that are so powerful you are handicapping yourself by not playing them. This informs deck construction in legacy and is what differentiates it from vintage. Legacy deck building should be a 60 card exercise. Not a ~48-55 card exercise.

[death]

Huh? So Moxes? It seems to be your definition of Legacy is just cards you like, which doesn't really give me much insight in to the format itself.

Banned is banned obv. Yeah that's how legacy should be defined, it's eternal. No restrictions, no 1-off broken stuff like Ancestral Recall, Black Lotus or Strip Mine. Legacy shouldn't be defined by labels like Vintage where you have Workshop vs Bazaar vs Drain vs Gush Aggro vs Combo.

[H]

The first distinction is the most important because it fundamentally changes the way you build decks in legacy vs. vintage. If you accept the concept of vintage you accept the presence of a couple of dozen cards that are absurdly powerful, you accept that many of those cards if drawn may make it very difficult to lose (or win if your opponent has them). This impacts vintage deck building in an overt way, the cards are so absurd you are handicapping yourself by not playing at least some of them (Black Lotus, you can argue that you should be playing it even in a deck with 4 Null Rods). There are whole deck building frameworks that prey on the fact that most other decks will play these absurd tutors, accelerants and draw effects.

I agree with you here, I feel the same way about Vintage and the Restricted list.


Legacy isn't burdened with the restricted list. It shouldn't be a format with such obvious inclusions in deck building that are so powerful you are handicapping yourself by not playing them. This informs deck construction in legacy and is what differentiates it from vintage. Legacy deck building should be a 60 card exercise. Not a ~48-55 card exercise.

This is definitely a problem I am seeing. There are cards that are just plainly better than others in Legacy, which leads right back to why Vintage looks the way it does.


Banned is banned obv. Yeah that's how legacy should be defined, it's eternal. No restrictions, no 1-off broken stuff like Ancestral Recall, Black Lotus or Strip Mine. Legacy shouldn't be defined by labels like in Vintage where you have Workshop vs Bazaar vs Drain vs Aggro vs Combo.

How is the dichotomy different there then in Legacy, excepting that the names and the decks are different? You have tempo versus Combo, versus Control, versus Mid-range?

[nedleeds]

This is definitely a problem I am seeing. There are cards that are just plainly better than others in Legacy, which leads right back to why Vintage looks the way it does.


Well I would have mentioned the instant who should not be named but it would drag the thread to the same place it always goes. I think the problem is obvious enough that it's not worth arguing about. I like Vintage for the reasons I stated, it just feels powerful and broken and expensive and awesome. I want Legacy to be a format of limitless options unconstrained by moxes, draw3s for 1, draw7s for 3, 12/12s for u2, bargains for 1g, fucking balance.

[H]

Well I would have mentioned the instant who should not be named but it would drag the thread to the same place it always goes. I think the problem is obvious enough that it's not worth arguing about. I like Vintage for the reasons I stated, it just feels powerful and broken and expensive and awesome. I want Legacy to be a format of limitless options unconstrained by moxes, draw3s for 1, draw7s for 3, 12/12s for u2, bargains for 1g, fucking balance.

Well, I am a Vintage player, first-and-foremost. I only play Legacy more now because where I happened to move to.

I think part of the "problem" we have in Legacy is that the ban list is pretty wishy-washy and the player-base reflects that. Or maybe it's the reverse. I think the reason the format gets little "official" respect now-a-days, is exactly the issue I am asking about. I don't think Wizards has a good idea what the answer to this question is actually.

I mean, when people's honest response to B&R discussions is to call everyone a "newb" because they have creatures in their deck, or a similar non-sense "argument," something is seriously wrong.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'd say that Legacy format is defined by original ABUR duals, ONS+ZEN fetchlands, no restricted list and heavy emphasis on color blue.

[death]

How is the dichotomy different there then in Legacy, excepting that the names and the decks are different? You have tempo versus Combo, versus Control, versus Mid-range?

I wasn't delving into dichotomy, rather into the "pillars" of Vintage. That is not the case with legacy, in Vintage you basically have 5 models from which you build a competitive deck.

Combo in Vintage may mean 2 things: Oath or TPS. In legacy however, it may be a dozen of things: LED-based combo, Show and Tell, Reanimator and what have you. Same goes for control, aggro and others.

[Lemnear]

I wasn't delving into dichotomy, rather into the "pillars" of Vintage. That is not the case with legacy, in Vintage you basically have 5 models from which you build a competitive deck.

Combo in Vintage may mean 2 things: Oath or TPS. In legacy however, it may be a dozen of things: LED-based combo, Show and Tell, Reanimator and what have you. Same goes for others.

Well, you can force "Pillars" in Legacy as well: Brainstorm, Aether Vial, Chalice, Green Sun's Zenith.

Legacy for me is defined by Duals, Fetches and a banned list.

[rufus]

I tend to think that the whole '4-of-everything' approach speaks to a certain range of deck reliability and consistency.

[death]

Well, you can force "Pillars" in Legacy as well: Brainstorm, Aether Vial, Chalice, Green Sun's Zenith.

Well it's not the same
Brainstorm - the possibilities are endless
Aether Vial - Death and Taxes, Merfolk, Goblins

Yep I stop here before it turns into another B&R discussion thread.

[H]

I wasn't delving into dichotomy, rather into the "pillars" of Vintage. That is not the case with legacy, in Vintage you basically have 5 models from which you build a competitive deck.

Combo in Vintage may mean 2 things: Oath or TPS. In legacy however, it may be a dozen of things: LED-based combo, Show and Tell, Reanimator and what have you. Same goes for control, aggro and others.

I don't know if I am willing to really follow you through that. In Vintage there are numerous kinds of Combo. Time Vault, Tinker/Robot, Storm, Dragon, Oath, even the rarely played, but still present Helm/Leyline. Hell, even 2nd place in the 132 player MTGO Vintage event was a mono-Blue Belcher deck. I've even played against Vintage Survival before (no, not in the Snapple bracket, it's actually pretty good).

Is that less than combo in Legacy? I guess, maybe. The difference is that there are tons of different ways to make a Time Vault or Tinker deck. There are even different Storm decks, TPS, Gush, Burning Oath, etc. You have not sold me that it's markedly less though, sorry.


Legacy for me is defined by Duals, Fetches and a banned list.

That's reasonable to me. However, if the banned list is part of what defines Legacy, what should the banned list be defined by?

[death]

Thing is you can jam Key/Vault or Tinker/Robot basically into anything, even control. Re: storm, I'm not sure how by switching a few cards makes it a different deck. Gush was unrestricted, it makes perfect sense to use the card in storm, for example, but giving the deck a new name or simply because a few cards were left out i.e. Y. Bargain/Necropotence is beyond me.

Re: fetchlands define the format? Onslaught fetchlands were reprinted and reprinted again, officially. Welcome to 2014.

[GenghisTom]

First and foremost,
1). Access to a card pool extending back to Alpha - including sets such as P3K, Conspiracy, Commander, etc.
2). A banned list not exclusive to Ante or physical dexterity cards such as Chaos Orb.
3). No restricted list.

Meta defining characteristics include:
1). Combo - Possibility of a turn 1 kill.
2). Counter Magic - Force of Will.
3). Mana acceleration - Dark Ritual, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, City of Traitors, Ancient Tomb, Grim Monolith, Metalworker, etc.
4). Mana Fixing - Duals and Fetches.
5). Lock pieces - Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Thalia, Gaddock Teeg.
6). Discard - Thoughtseize, etc.
7). Consistency - Brainstorm, Green Sun's Zenith.
(I would have made a shorter list but I didn't have enough time)

In my opinion, the health of legacy (any format for that matter) relies on being rewarded through skillful game play and knowledge of the meta as well as a variety of deck options, which I think is prevalent at the moment.

[H]

Thing is you can jam Key/Vault or Tinker/Robot basically into anything, even control. Re: storm, I'm not sure how by switching a few cards makes it a different deck. Gush was unbanned, it makes perfect sense to use the card in storm, for example, but giving the deck a new name or simply because a few cards were left out i.e. Y. Bargain/Necropotence is beyond me.

Gush is unrestricted in Vintage, so I don't understand your point.


3 Dack Fayden
3 Young Pyromancer
1 Fastbond
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Brainstorm
3 Dig Through Time
1 Fire/Ice
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Gush
3 Mental Misstep
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
4 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Flooded Strand
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Island

Sideboard:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Mountain
4 Ingot Chewer
2 Nature's Claim
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Engineered Explosives


Mana
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria

Creatures
1 Blightsteel Colossus // 1 Inkwell Leviathan // 1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind (Pick your bot based on the expected metagame)

Acceleration
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual

Disruption
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
4 Mental Misstep

Cantrips
1 Ponder
2 Preordain

Broken
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

Additional Tutors
2 Grim Tutor

Bombs
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind's Desire
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar

Finisher
1 Tendrils of Agony

Other
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Sideboard
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
4 Yixlid Jailer
3 Defense Grid


4 City of Brass
4 Forbidden Orchard
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Tolarian Academy

2 Simian Spirit Guide

1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth’s Bargain

1 Ancestral Recall
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Chain of Vapour
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Vampiric Tutor

4 Burning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Duress
1 Mind’s Desire
1 Ponder
1 Regrowth
1 Timetwister
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall

1 Black Lotus
2 Chrome Mox
1 Lion’s Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring

Sideboard
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Balance
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ravenous Trap
4 Xantid Swarm

You are saying these are not different decks? How are these decks less differentiated than say TES and ANT are in Legacy?

[Lemnear]

Re: fetchlands define the format? Onslaught fetchlands were reprinted and reprinted again, officially. Welcome to 2014.

Yeah, Duals + Fetches define all of Legacy's manabase and make 3-/4-colored decks and cherrypicking options no matter the color possible. Neither Modern or Standard can provide such mana-flexibility without mayor drawbacks (unlike Shocklands).

That was not that hard to get, no?


You are saying these are not different decks? How are these decks less differentiated than say TES and ANT are in Legacy?

For some people only black and white exist, I guess ;)

[death]

You are saying these are not different decks? How are these decks less differentiated than say TES and ANT are in Legacy?

Gush was unrestricted and it makes perfect sense to use it in Storm. Gush Storm is basically an updated TPS.


Combo in Vintage may mean 2 things: Oath or TPS.

I should have said Gush Storm, TPS is pretty much dead. Oath is still Oath whether you kill via beatdown or storm.


That was not that hard to get, no?

How do you define something? When you define something it should be a unique feature right? What differentiates Vintage from any other format? They rely heavily on fetchlands too, is Vintage defined by fetchlands? Onslaught fetchlands were unique to Vintage and Legacy pre-2014.

Both Ferrari and Lamborghini, or any car for that matter have doors, but how do you define a Lamborghini? It has "scissor" doors also called lambo doors. It's part of what makes a Lamborghini a Lamborghini.

Sometimes things can be quite as simple as black and white.

[H]

Gush was unrestricted and it makes perfect sense to use it in Storm. Gush Storm is basically an updated TPS.

I should have said Gush Storm, TPS is pretty much dead. Oath is still Oath whether you kill via beatdown or storm.

Sorry again, I played a great deal of Oath in my time and both decks play out quite differently. Indeed, my good friend Greg is the man responsible for the Oath build which won Vintage Champs this year and a top 8 last year, he knows Oath and I've worked with him before and since. I would not call myself an Oath expert (that is Greg) but I do have enough reps to know how different builds play out.

Gush storm does not play out like TPS does. TPS is also not dead. It's not well positioned, but it is still an absolutely playable archetype if you can dodge Workshops/craft a good enough sideboard. I also didn't mention other Gush based storm decks like those that use Doomsday, but I have a feeling you'd just look to discredit those on some arbitrary basis too. I really hope your Vintage experience is more than you reading decklists on a forum, because I am starting to get a feeling it might be.

[M+1]

Legacy is where you can play with any card ever printed, except for a reasonably short list of banned cards that are deemed so powerful that each of them, if unrestricted, would single-handedly 'break' the format and lead to an undesired state by forcing everyone to either play 4 of that card, or play some anti-deck that specifically 'hates' the card.

[death]

Sorry again, I played a great deal of Oath in my time and both decks play out quite differently.

What I didn't know is that deck names in Vintage are a huge deal maybe because of its entry cost or the amount of ego attached to decks. Every Survival deck plays quite differently but it's really not a BFD just sticking with its namesake.

In my own opinion, whether it's ICBM, GWS, Tyrant Oath, Rune-Scarred, Griselbrand or Burning Wish Oath.. it's still an Oath deck.


Gush storm does not play out like TPS does. TPS is also not dead. It's not well positioned

They do play out differently, only slightly. Both utilize the same "storm" mechanic. Re: Doomsday, if we're talking about Menendian's Lab Maniac build then that would be an entirely different deck, and it's not quite dead yet like TPS.

[H]

What I didn't know is that deck names in Vintage are a huge deal maybe because of its entry cost or the amount of ego attached to decks. Every Survival deck plays quite differently but it's really not a BFD just sticking with its namesake.

In my own opinion, whether it's ICBM, GWS, Tyrant Oath, Rune-Scarred, Griselbrand or Burning Wish Oath.. it's still an Oath deck.



They do play out differently, only slightly. Both utilize the same "storm" mechanic. Re: Doomsday, if we're talking about Menendian's Lab Maniac build then that's an entirely different deck, and it's not quite dead yet like TPS.

Your original point was that there was a critical lack of diversity in Vintage because of Pillars. I was arguing that there was still a good deal of diversity between and amongst them. You've actually just proved my point for me by describing all the different types of Oath decks, plus admitting that although decks may rely on Storm mechanic, they are not all the same, so I thank you for thinking progressively.

As a final point, there are more Doomsday decks than just ones that use Laboratory Maniac.

To progress this past arguing the Vintage decks are not all the same, for those who feel that Legacy is defined by the banned list, I want to follow that logic through. If the banned list defines Legacy, what defines the banned list? Not simply, "cards that are too good" because there are some really debatable choices on there that do not seem to follow that logic at all.

[btm10]

I want Legacy to be a format of limitless options unconstrained by moxes, draw3s for 1, draw7s for 3, 12/12s for u2, bargains for 1g, fucking balance.

So how do we decide what the reasonable constraints are? The argument usually used in support of Brainstorm is that it enables decks to be highly consistent, so that it drives decks that don't run it and aren't either highly redundant (Death and Taxes, Burn) or capable of running a different consistency engine (Elves) out of competition. But there are a lot of decks that would be better positioned/put up more results if they weren't constrained in some other way by another card or archetype. Fast combo for instance drives out tons of consistent midrange decks. I don't have a clear answer to these questions myself, but I'd like to hear what you think.



I think part of the "problem" we have in Legacy is that the ban list is pretty wishy-washy and the player-base reflects that. Or maybe it's the reverse. I think the reason the format gets little "official" respect now-a-days, is exactly the issue I am asking about. I don't think Wizards has a good idea what the answer to this question is actually.


I think part of this is the format's half-breed history coupled with Wizards' slowness in catching up to where Legacy actually is. You highlighted some of this in your initial post, but obviously your quotes are from ten years ago. I do think that Legacy has moved beyond being defined solely by the ABUR duals, though. They're an essential ingredient, but we also have cards like Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Lion's Eye Diamond (as a 4-of) that separate the format from both Modern and Vintage.



To progress this past arguing the Vintage decks are not all the same, for those who feel that Legacy is defined by the banned list, I want to follow that logic through. If the banned list defines Legacy, what defines the banned list? Not simply, "cards that are too good" because there are some really debatable choices on there that do not seem to follow that logic at all.

I think the banned list serves four purposes: first, it should be used to keep any single deck from being dominant (i.e., Hulk Flash). This usually takes the form of banning combo pieces/enablers. The second is making it possible to run events smoothly. Aside from obvious problems like Shaharazad and dexterity cards, there are things like Worldgorger Dragon and Goblin Recruiter that aren't there for power reasons, but are likely to remain there because they create the potential for serious abuse, especially in the case of Worldgorger. The third is keeping Legacy a distinct format, so banning things like SoLoMoxen while leaving Stoneforge Mystic untouched allows it to be differentiated from Vintage and Modern, respectively. The fourth is tricker, and that's keeping the format fun. This is the category into which all the judgement calls go, and why I think B/R debates become ao rancorous. Unfortunately, I don't think there are likely to be objective, one-size fits all criteria for this category because we all value different aspects of the game. There are some decisions im this category that have very broad-based support (Mental Misstep) but there are also much more comtroversial bans out there like Survival pf the Fittest.

[apple713]

legacy is defined by the delicate balance that exists between cards being efficient but no so efficient that they warp the format, such as the power 9 and the cards on the banned list.

[Aggro_zombies]

Thanks for contributing.
His answer is flippant, but essentially correct. Legacy provides something unique from WotC's PoV:

1) It has a deep card pool spanning the game's history, unlike Modern or Standard;

2) It excludes some of the more truly egregious power level mistakes, unlike Vintage;

3) It gives players who want to play a fast-paced, low-variance format someplace to play.

The thing that sets Legacy apart from all of Wizards' other tournament formats is that it's up to its eyeballs in cheap card advantage without also being broken beyond repair. Brainstorm is of course the poster child for this, though Ponder, Preordain, and now Treasure Cruise contribute to it. Basically, if you want to play a format where cheap, powerful cantrips allow you to execute a single game plan very well, Legacy is your format.

[TokenMaster]

I think that saying that the format is defined and balanced around Brainstorm/Force of Will is fair to say. Those two cards interact in many different ways, to countless different things in the format, creating several different decks that live and die on them, and those cards have an impact even on builds that don't run them.

[wonderPreaux]

I think that saying that the format is defined and balanced around Brainstorm/Force of Will is fair to say. Those two cards interact in many different ways, to countless different things in the format, creating several different decks that live and die on them, and those cards have an impact even on builds that don't run them.

That logic also applies fairly well to Wasteland. In a broader sense, the number of all-in combo decks in the conceptual way is also a factor, since they tug at the use of Force of Will.

[death]

That logic is pretty narrow and one-sided. How about decks that don't really care about countermagic? Like Dredge, all it cares about is generating tokens with Bridge from Below, Breakthrough and loot cards are just icing on the cake.

Dredge, Affinity, and MUD also don't play fetchlands, do they not count as part of legacy? MUD and Stax play redundant lock pieces, Chalice/3Sphere, these ignore cards like Brainstorm and FoW, but are not necessarily their main goal.

[Teveshszat]

Death
That logic is pretty narrow and one-sided. How about decks that don't really care about countermagic? Like Dredge, all it cares about is generating tokens with Bridge from Below, Breakthrough and loot cards are just icing on the cake.
Dredge, Affinity, and MUD also don't play fetchlands, do they not count as part of legacy? MUD and Stax play redundant lock pieces, Chalice/3Sphere, these ignore cards like Brainstorm and FoW, but are not necessarily their main goal.

Nope the logic is correct. it is neither one sided nor narrow. To define a format you look for iconic cards and strategies. This means you look for things which are played by the most people in the format. Because most of the time these are the most popular cards and well known to everyone and therefore representing the format to the outside world. Also you look for unique things in the format.

So just looking into Legeacy under this circumstances, Brainstorm, FOW, Duals and Fetchlands are the cards which come to my mind. The reason for that are the unique ways of interaction they provide and ofcourse the number of times they are played in the different decks. Also we can take into concideration that Legeacy is the only format were you can play Brainstorm as 4 off.

In contrast to that you can play dregde in 2 formats and not only one. Also while the decks are exsisting they are less popular than any deck with FOW and Brainstorm.

So in fact his logic is not saying that the decks you mentioned are not part of the format but not popular enough to count as defining elements of the same.

[death]

In that context you are right. But is it correct that an eternal format is defined by only 2 cards sharing one color?

[frafen]

That logic is pretty narrow and one-sided. How about decks that don't really care about countermagic? Like Dredge, all it cares about is generating tokens with Bridge from Below, Breakthrough and loot cards are just icing on the cake.

Dredge, Affinity, and MUD also don't play fetchlands, do they not count as part of legacy? MUD and Stax play redundant lock pieces, Chalice/3Sphere, these ignore cards like Brainstorm and FoW, but are not necessarily their main goal. I think that it's not true that dredge don't really care about countermagic because the main reason behind the creation of manaless dredge is to minimize the impact of Daze and Force of Will on dredge's gameplan.

I agree with those who say that Force of Will is the "glue" that holds legacy together. For me it's the only real pillar of the format, without it legacy would collapse into something completely different and unrecognizable.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

So just looking into Legacy under this circumstances, Brainstorm, FOW, Duals and Fetchlands are the cards which come to my mind.
Next is Wasteland, but this is debatable. Otoh, it's the main and quite often the only card that holds the lands in check.

[dionykos]

Thanks for opening this topic H, and trying to lead it in a smart way.
The question about what defines the ban list (as this ban list defines legacy) is very interesting.


I think the banned list serves four purposes: first, it should be used to keep any single deck from being dominant (i.e., Hulk Flash). This usually takes the form of banning combo pieces/enablers. The second is making it possible to run events smoothly. Aside from obvious problems like Shaharazad and dexterity cards, there are things like Worldgorger Dragon and Goblin Recruiter that aren't there for power reasons, but are likely to remain there because they create the potential for serious abuse, especially in the case of Worldgorger. The third is keeping Legacy a distinct format, so banning things like SoLoMoxen while leaving Stoneforge Mystic untouched allows it to be differentiated from Vintage and Modern, respectively. The fourth is tricker, and that's keeping the format fun. This is the category into which all the judgement calls go, and why I think B/R debates become ao rancorous. Unfortunately, I don't think there are likely to be objective, one-size fits all criteria for this category because we all value different aspects of the game. There are some decisions im this category that have very broad-based support (Mental Misstep) but there are also much more comtroversial bans out there like Survival pf the Fittest.

1 - It's diversity and probably your most valid point. WotC would not let Legacy have a dominant deck, even if the format could maybe adapt to this deck on the long run. That explains SotF. I personally think this is WotC priority, way before power level (hello Show and Tell), to a point that I wonder if they want Legacy to have a metagame at all. Imo they want people to play a lot of different cards in this format, even if they're all backed up by brainstorm and FoW. This may be influenced by the economics of the game (sellers need volumes). This may also explain to some extend why Misstep was banned as it was killing fast strategies.

2 - Ok but it's quite narrow. It has been an argument to ban Sensei top for a while.

3 - This is highly subjective and not my interpretation at all tbh.

4 - Again highly subjective and I doubt that WotC think in these terms when it comes to banning. It's more an R&D thing, ie for new prints/mechanics. At best we could say that they monitor the number of legacy events/players and might take action if they drop.

[mlschuma]

Things that define the Legacy environment:

1. Access to tier one mana selection: ABU duals + Fetches

2. Access to tier two fast mana: Rituals, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, LED

3. No arbitrary turn limit for how fast a deck can be.

4. The ability to consistently win from any zone: Stack, Graveyard, or on the Battlefield

5. Decks designed and relying on exploiting internal synergies more than any other format.

6. A mana curve that is low by default.

7. Answer cards are more closely related to the cost of threats than any other format.

8. A hands-off approach to the banned list. Usually only in cases of a single card's archetype fueling a single dominant deck (i.e. Flash, Survival) and also the occasional ban for ubiquity and overwhelming negative player morale (Mystical Tutor, Mental Misstep). This hands-off approach has caused a lot of powerful, but potentially safe, cards to languish on the list past their prime.

----
These are the precepts a player must embrace in order to do well in the format.

While there are obvious exceptions to all the above, but those are almost all fringe or unconventional decks that give casual Legacy the greatest amount of format diversity and appeal. Without the above, the format loses it's identity that just turn it into Modern with some extra old cards.

[btm10]

Thanks for opening this topic H, and trying to lead it in a smart way.
The question about what defines the ban list (as this ban list defines legacy) is very interesting.



1 - It's diversity and probably your most valid point. WotC would not let Legacy have a dominant deck, even if the format could maybe adapt to this deck on the long run. That explains SotF. I personally think this is WotC priority, way before power level (hello Show and Tell), to a point that I wonder if they want Legacy to have a metagame at all. Imo they want people to play a lot of different cards in this format, even if they're all backed up by brainstorm and FoW. This may be influenced by the economics of the game (sellers need volumes). This may also explain to some extend why Misstep was banned as it was killing fast strategies.

2 - Ok but it's quite narrow. It has been an argument to ban Sensei top for a while.

3 - This is highly subjective and not my interpretation at all tbh.

4 - Again highly subjective and I doubt that WotC think in these terms when it comes to banning. It's more an R&D thing, ie for new prints/mechanics. At best we could say that they monitor the number of legacy events/players and might take action if they drop.

The second aspect is narrow, but it's really the only way (other than inertia) to rationalize something like WGD staying banned. The arguments for banning Top under this criterion are reasonable, but I think they ultimately do more harm than good. As it currently stands, the fact that poor Top mechanics (both in terms of when to activate and the actual moving of the cards between looking and sitting on top the library) lead to frequent unintentional draws serves as a useful check on Top's draw-fixing power and the overall power of Miracles.

The third aspect is indeed subjective, but I think that most Legacy players agree that keeping the overall power level of Legacy positioned roughly between that of Vintage and that of Modern is important to the long-term health of the format. This sort of overlaps with the first goal, but it also includes the fact that lots of cards that are banned in Modern or Restricted in Vintage aren't banned in Legacy despite the fact that they have large effects on the metagame. Prior to the printing of Treasure Cruise, Deathrite Shaman was probably the best example of this on the Modern side, and LED on the Vintage side.

I think you're definitely undervaluing the fourth aspect as a factor in B/R decisions. To quote from what is probably the second-largest B/R update ever:



[I]n the past three months R&D and the DCI have been reminded that Magic is not a series of balanced equations, spreadsheets of Top 8 results and data of card frequencies. Magic is a game played by human beings that want to have fun...

Now that [Trinisphere] has been floating around for a while, the Vintage crowd understands that the card does good things for the format, and bad things to the format. While it does serve a role of keeping combo decks in check, it also randomly destroys people on turn one, with little recourse other than Force of Will. And those games end up labeled with that heinous word—unfun. Not just “I lost” unfun, but “Why did I even come here to play?” unfun. The power level of the card is no jokes either, which is a big reason why I don't feel bad about its restriction.

The game is ultimately about having fun, and while the other factors I mentioned definitely play into fun, they ultimately don't capture everything. Competitive contexts are the only places where B/R lists really matter and while winning is the principal concern of competitive players, that doesn't mean that having the competition itself be enjoyable isn't one of the WotC's goals.

[death]

Things that define the Legacy environment:

1. Access to tier one mana selection: ABU duals + Fetches

2. Access to tier two fast mana: Rituals, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, LED

3. No arbitrary turn limit for how fast a deck can be.

4. The ability to consistently win from any zone: Stack, Graveyard, or on the Battlefield

5. Decks designed and relying on exploiting internal synergies more than any other format.

6. A mana curve that is low by default.

7. Answer cards are more closely related to the cost of threats than any other format.

8. A hands-off approach to the banned list. Usually only in cases of a single card's archetype fueling a single dominant deck (i.e. Flash, Survival) and also the occasional ban for ubiquity and overwhelming negative player morale (Mystical Tutor, Mental Misstep). This hands-off approach has caused a lot of powerful, but potentially safe, cards to languish on the list past their prime.

+1. Just nitpicking. ESG/SSG, Land Grant, Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors belong to #2. There should be a subcategory for enablers like: Exploration, Crop Rotation, Exhume, Show and Tell etc.

Force of Will/StP falls under #7.

I wouldn't describe the mana curve as low by default. #5-#7 are the result of Legacy's vast card pool. And there's always a choice between Counterspell over Cancel.

Since we're going into details, I find one aspect missing: The full access to blue cantrips Brainstorm and Ponder in particular, both banned/restricted in Modern/Vintage but have legacy as their home. There is no question these two tremendously improve performance of otherwise mediocre decks, their ubiquity and dominance in the competitive scene is proof.

The community, in general, believes they are perfectly safe and consider them as part of the pillars.

[ahg113]

The community, in general, believes they ([sic] Brainstorm & Ponder) are perfectly safe and consider them as part of the pillars.

That's very, very, debatable, and in fact a dubious comment. The observation about Legacy being the safe house for all blue cantrips is very valid though.

[from Cairo]

Legacy to me is defined by the cards that aren't legal in Modern (or legal at 4x of in Vintage): Brainstorm, Ponder, Stoneforge Mystic, Green Sun's Zenith, Deathrite Shaman, and Sensei's Divining Top.

[Fatal]

One category is missing:

9. Access to tier 2 tutors like Grim Tutor, Intuition, GSZ, Enlightened Tutor, where tier 1 tutors: Imperial Seal, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Mistical Tutor are banned.

Big question is: Brainstorm is Tier 1 Tutor or Tier 2 ? In Vintage it counts as Tier 1 Tutor where they are restricted same for Ponder.

Since Brainstorm can Tutor multiple cards for U on instant I would call it tier 1 so its much different to Ponder. On the other side those are cantrips they doesn't search too deep like banned tutors - its random for example:

Conditions:
4 same cards in deck none of them on hand, turn 2 brainstorm after playing fetchland turn 1 (on play), and pass we have chance to draw from brainstorm that specify card:
53 cards in deck on start, after fetch and draw 51 cards in deck we draw additional 3 more mean we have chance to draw one of them:
7,8% in first draw, 8% in second and 8,2% in third. It's not so much but there is an other factor which should be looked - even if it failed you change quality of cards of your hand. When we take to compare non-brainstorm deck we should consider that changing 3 cards in hand will find specify card much quicker then non-brainstorm deck. I'm probably too lazy to do the math here but there is a task for you for experiment:

2 Decks, 2 players seeking card which is 4-of in his deck, compare probability draw them in first 3 turns.

First deck contains:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
10 fetchlands
4 Key Card - this need to be drawn
12 Islands
24 Other cards which aren't important

Second deck contains:
4 Preordain
4 Ponder
10 fetchlands
4 Key Card
12 Island
24 Other cards which aren't important

Its difficult task to count. Good luck ;)

[dionykos]

@btm10: thanks for the follow up.

I agree with you on 1 and 2.

On 3: I think it's more a consequence of the ban list that a criteria for it. I mean WotC decides what Legacy should be, and because it's a different definition than Vintage and Modern, it leads to specific bans. Maybe I just need a specific example to be convinced. DRS isn't a good one as there was no reason to ban it according to our points 1 and 2: it was played in a lot of different decks (Tempo, Midrange, Control, even combo Elves). LED isn't dominant either. And we should be careful when comparing to Vintage banlist: we're trying to define Legacy, Vintage may have its own reasons.

On 4: you may be right, in a sense WotC need players to have fun so that they keep playing.

[dragonwisdom]

Things that define the Legacy environment:

1. Access to tier one mana selection: ABU duals + Fetches

2. Access to tier two fast mana: Rituals, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, LED

3. No arbitrary turn limit for how fast a deck can be.

4. The ability to consistently win from any zone: Stack, Graveyard, or on the Battlefield

5. Decks designed and relying on exploiting internal synergies more than any other format.

6. A mana curve that is low by default.

7. Answer cards are more closely related to the cost of threats than any other format.

8. A hands-off approach to the banned list. Usually only in cases of a single card's archetype fueling a single dominant deck (i.e. Flash, Survival) and also the occasional ban for ubiquity and overwhelming negative player morale (Mystical Tutor, Mental Misstep). This hands-off approach has caused a lot of powerful, but potentially safe, cards to languish on the list past their prime.

----
These are the precepts a player must embrace in order to do well in the format.

While there are obvious exceptions to all the above, but those are almost all fringe or unconventional decks that give casual Legacy the greatest amount of format diversity and appeal. Without the above, the format loses it's identity that just turn it into Modern with some extra old cards.

This answer is correct. well written.

To put in in short

LED, brainstorm, original duals and force of will and wasteland are the cards that define legacy

[btm10]

On 3: I think it's more a consequence of the ban list that a criteria for it. I mean WotC decides what Legacy should be, and because it's a different definition than Vintage and Modern, it leads to specific bans. Maybe I just need a specific example to be convinced. DRS isn't a good one as there was no reason to ban it according to our points 1 and 2: it was played in a lot of different decks (Tempo, Midrange, Control, even combo Elves). LED isn't dominant either. And we should be careful when comparing to Vintage banlist: we're trying to define Legacy, Vintage may have its own reasons.


No problem. Thank you, too.

As for 3 - you have good points here, and maybe the only clear examples of this outlook at work are Ponder and Brainstorm. Then again, you probably don't need an explicit rule to differentiate Legacy from Vintage and Modern in order to achieve that differentiation in practice.


One category is missing:

9. Access to tier 2 tutors like Grim Tutor, Intuition, GSZ, Enlightened Tutor, where tier 1 tutors: Imperial Seal, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Mistical Tutor are banned.

Big question is: Brainstorm is Tier 1 Tutor or Tier 2 ? In Vintage it counts as Tier 1 Tutor where they are restricted same for Ponder.


This is an interesting idea, and (sort of) follows from what I was writing above. While I don't really consider Ponder and Brainstorm tutors, their function in Legacy is similar to the tutors' function in Vintage in that they form the backbone of the format's consistency tools.

[wonderPreaux]

Brainstorm does not Tutor for cards, nor does Ponder. They examine the top 3 cards of your deck, which is rarely a majority/all of your library. Further, they are not treated as teir-1 tutors in Vintage, their restriction is related to their cantripping ability, which is something the vintage b/r list has targeted before (example: the Gush engine being banned/unbanned).

[mlschuma]

+1. Just nitpicking. ESG/SSG, Land Grant, Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors belong to #2. There should be a subcategory for enablers like: Exploration, Crop Rotation, Exhume, Show and Tell etc.

Force of Will/StP falls under #7.

I wouldn't describe the mana curve as low by default. #5-#7 are the result of Legacy's vast card pool. And there's always a choice between Counterspell over Cancel.

Since we're going into details, I find one aspect missing: The full access to blue cantrips Brainstorm and Ponder in particular, both banned/restricted in Modern/Vintage but have legacy as their home. There is no question these two tremendously improve performance of otherwise mediocre decks, their ubiquity and dominance in the competitive scene is proof.

The community, in general, believes they are perfectly safe and consider them as part of the pillars.

Your fast mana examples are all spot on, I just didn't list every possible thing for brevity's sake.

"Powerful engine cards are allowed" could easily have its own point, but I believe my point about synergy encompasses that aspect because the engine cards (Ad Nauseum, Survival, GSZ, Counterbalance/Miracles) all require decks to be optimized to their internal synergies, often ignoring powerful cards that the decks would potentially want: Treasure Cruise in storm combo for instance.

I do believe the mana curve is low by default for the reason you listed. Legacy possesses all the cheapest options, and requires using the cheapest available options in sacrifice of some swingy abilities. Reasons powerful cards like Cryptic Command has virtually no format presence.

As pointed out by you and some other posters, there should be one more point about Cantrips/Tutors/Consistency tools. I probably didn't give them enough space but believe that they also fall under the Synergy category to a large degree.

[amalek0]

His answer is flippant, but essentially correct. Legacy provides something unique from WotC's PoV:

1) It has a deep card pool spanning the game's history, unlike Modern or Standard;

2) It excludes some of the more truly egregious power level mistakes, unlike Vintage;

3) It gives players who want to play a fast-paced, low-variance format someplace to play.

The thing that sets Legacy apart from all of Wizards' other tournament formats is that it's up to its eyeballs in cheap card advantage without also being broken beyond repair. Brainstorm is of course the poster child for this, though Ponder, Preordain, and now Treasure Cruise contribute to it. Basically, if you want to play a format where cheap, powerful cantrips allow you to execute a single game plan very well, Legacy is your format.

I would like to elaborate somewhat on his points here--I think most people are looking at the question in terms of cards, when in reality I see it as a diversity of available tools--Vintage is defined more than anything by its fast mana and powerful raw card advantage--Draw 7's and Moxen. Legacy, with those tools unavailable, is a format defined by its card pool (similar to vintage) but then differentiated from vintage by being a more consistent, card-quality centric format, rather than the raw speed and card advantage of vintage.

[H]

Sorry for lobbing this topic out there and being less than fully present, but I have a bunch on my real-life plate.

One thing that I am noticing about this discussion though is the near unanimous agreement on Vintage's definition, but nothing even close to that for Legacy. That is one of the reasons I made the topic, was because it was easy for me to conceptualize a definition for Modern and Vintage, but nearly impossible for me to formulate a clear one for Legacy.

[Richard Cheese]

Maybe you missed it, but the correct answer was on the very first page:


The formats defining feature is: no restricted list and only a banned list.
The a/b dual lands are the defining cards of legacy because they provide the base to build decks of any color, they are so special they even dragged them through extended despite the rest of revised rotating. After that they were left in legacy (1.5) and vintage (1) alone.

The first distinction is the most important because it fundamentally changes the way you build decks in legacy vs. vintage. If you accept the concept of vintage you accept the presence of a couple of dozen cards that are absurdly powerful, you accept that many of those cards if drawn may make it very difficult to lose (or win if your opponent has them). This impacts vintage deck building in an overt way, the cards are so absurd you are handicapping yourself by not playing at least some of them (Black Lotus, you can argue that you should be playing it even in a deck with 4 Null Rods). There are whole deck building frameworks that prey on the fact that most other decks will play these absurd tutors, accelerants and draw effects.

Legacy isn't burdened with the restricted list. It shouldn't be a format with such obvious inclusions in deck building that are so powerful you are handicapping yourself by not playing them. This informs deck construction in legacy and is what differentiates it from vintage. Legacy deck building should be a 60 card exercise. Not a ~48-55 card exercise.

[rufus]

Brainstorm does not Tutor for cards, nor does Ponder. They examine the top 3 cards of your deck, which is rarely a majority/all of your library...

It's easy to underestimate the searching power of those cards. If you're looking for a 4-of card, are willing to chain brainstorms or ponders with 4 of each in the deck, and have a fetch for a free shuffle, your odds of finding the card are something like 1 in 3.

[wonderPreaux]

It's easy to underestimate the searching power of those cards. If you're looking for a 4-of card, are willing to chain brainstorms or ponders with 4 of each in the deck, and have a fetch for a free shuffle, your odds of finding the card are something like 1 in 3.

So if I have an undefined multiple number of cantrips, and another card to optimize their use, I will have a, likely made-up or oversimplified 1/3 chance? that doesn't sound like a tutor at all, given that a tutor, on it's own, has a 100% chance of finding a card.

[Lemnear]

So if I have an undefined multiple number of cantrips, and another card to optimize their use, I will have a, likely made-up or oversimplified 1/3 chance? that doesn't sound like a tutor at all, given that a tutor, on it's own, has a 100% chance of finding a card.

Funny. I ever refered to Ponder as a "Soft-Tutor" since the B&R explanation after it was chopped in Vintage ( which hinted at Ponder making it too easy to grab restricted bombs) as a homage to the relation between Counterspell and spell Pierce. "cheaper but less guarantee to do what you expect from it".

XD

[H]

Maybe you missed it, but the correct answer was on the very first page:

Believe me, I didn't miss that at all. I already know that most of Nedleed's ideas are in line with my own. That doesn't mean I can't attempt to foster further discussion.

[rufus]

... that doesn't sound like a tutor at all, given that a tutor, on it's own, has a 100% chance of finding a card.

I wrote that that the Brainstorm/Ponder was a powerful way to find cards, not that they were 'per se' a tutor. I should also like to point out that unreliable and limited tutor effects like Demonic Consultation or Infernal Tutor can still be very potent.

[tescrin]

I think the manabases describe the formats best:
-Moxes, Duals
-Duals (and basics?)
-Shocks and (Scar?)lands

EDIT: They all use fetches, so they were omitted.

The lack of restricted list and use of only a banned list is a feature, but it's only a defining feature from Vintage. Everything else about the formats revolves around the manabases (and it makes sense they should.)

There is some bit of (flame-war prompting) discussion of Legacy being the Brainstorm format; which may be part of the reason it's everywhere (aside from power level.)

[wonderPreaux]

Funny. I ever refered to Ponder as a "Soft-Tutor" since the B&R explanation after it was chopped in Vintage ( which hinted at Ponder making it too easy to grab restricted bombs) as a homage to the relation between Counterspell and spell Pierce. "cheaper but less guarantee to do what you expect from it".

XD

I think the issue with a phrasing like that is that "guarantees" are binary, they are or they aren't, and I feel tutors are the same way. Either you have perfect access to the card or you don't. I've had Brainstorms that gave me the win, and I've had Brainstorms that weren't worth casting. I've had opponents who topped a Terminus before I even get an attack in, and I've had people spin tops, crack fetches and Brainstorm for two turns only to concede when we move to declare blockers. Cantrips reduce variance, but can't eliminate it on their own and I get tired of the people in this or the other of too-damn-many "ban cantrips" threads who speak in absolutes like Brainstorm magically gives everyone a broken hand, sets every play in place and provides insurmountable advantages.

Compared to something like "soft counter"/"hard counter", I think that phrasing is more appropriate because, at some level, no counter can provide guaranteed safety. Even against actual "counterspell" or "force of will", I can make a play happen, it's just that the effect to play around is more or less harsh. You can interact with it in either eventuality, just more or less so. In the case of cantrips vs tutors, tutors actually do guarantee you a card, sometime you dig and dig and don't find a card with cantrips.


I wrote that that the Brainstorm/Ponder was a powerful way to find cards, not that they were 'per se' a tutor. I should also like to point out that unreliable and limited tutor effects like Demonic Consultation or Infernal Tutor can still be very potent.

The ability to look through some number of cards or have conditional tutors IS potent, and jury-rigged tutor effects like Infernal Tutor are, tutor effects in the cases that they are tutor effects. However, I don't think I'm underestimating the effectiveness of Brainstorm/Ponder when I say they are NOT tutors.

[joven]

For me Legacy is a format where you can play cards from the Eternal pool especially with the original dual lands.
I actually don't like all those broken cards. If it where for me the ban list would be a lot longer. Maybe there should be an extra format for people like me. ;)

[twndomn]

To simply summarize Legacy as Brainstorm, I understand that argument, but it's not inclusive enough. Yes, it's on a playmat, it's on the sleeves, but to generalize as Brainstorm, you are ignoring Painter, Elves, DnT, Lands, MUD, and many more.

Hence, Legacy is a non-rotating format such that the barrier is low enough to take in cards in a new set and it is capable of self-adjust. You can see this when TNN came to the scene.

There're very little meta-game shift you see in Vintage; most card slots are locked, takes in very few cards if any, when a new set comes out.

Modern is a format that is incapable of self-adjust. Sure it takes in new cards, but the existing decks are simply powerless once people figured out how to abuse certain aspect of allowable cards. This happened in thopter foundry, in DRS, and many other examples.

[Final Fortune]

To me it's Vintage light, where the game winning singletons are banned, the mana bases are based on just Fetch/Duals and color quality instead of mana acceleration and all of the cards that shouldn't be restricted aren't - Brainstorm, Ponder etc. - while maintaing the wide depth of archetypes like Storm, Sneak Attack, Dredge, Reanimator, Elves, D&T etc.

[rufus]

...

The ability to look through some number of cards or have conditional tutors IS potent, and jury-rigged tutor effects like Infernal Tutor are, tutor effects in the cases that they are tutor effects. However, I don't think I'm underestimating the effectiveness of Brainstorm/Ponder when I say they are NOT tutors.

The "is it a tutor?" question is uninteresting, but I'm pretty sure that the Brainstorm/Ponder/SDT shell can be a more efficient and versatile card finder than many of the topdeck tutors. (Otherwise, Miracles would play Personal Tutor, right?) With the exception of Green Sun's Zenith we really only see full tutors in decks which run them with 1-of game plans like storm strategies and reanimator.

It's a topic for another thread, but I wonder if there's a sensible way to compare the 'card finding power' of one shell with another.

[HPB_Eggo]

I would have to say that Legacy, as a format, is most defined by its ability to be very consistent (by far the most consistent of all formats, IMO), and the methods of gaining that consistency - specifically, card quality, powerful/reusable engines, and stable multi-color mana bases.

Compare this to the other formats...

Vintage has tons of powerful cards, but is very swingy because of the restricted list. It also has fewer of the best CQ cards, as a result of them making it far too easy to make decks that consistently find cards on the restricted list. It does have very consistent mana bases and utilizes many (often broken) engines, but is differentiated from Legacy because of its lack of consistency.

Modern has fewer powerful cards than Legacy, and generally relies more on having functional duplicates to achieve consistency. Where functional consistency isn't possible, the deck usually has to have more than one method of winning the game (see Birthing Pod combo lists, for instance). It lacks ridiculous CQ and many of the engines available in Legacy and, as such, is generally less consistent.

Standard has the same issues as Modern, but they are (usually) more exaggerated. It being (generally) a slower format means the issues can be masked by the speed, so it can often be very consistent as a result of the metagame, but I find that it usually is not.

IMO, this is what makes Legacy the most competitive format.

A great example of how consistency is viewed differently between formats is the Thopter Foundry 'combo' - as both pieces aren't good on their own, the combo is not consistent enough to put up top-tier results in Legacy. However, it is banned in Modern because its power level is much too high and the threshold for a competitive level of consistency is significantly lower than it is in Legacy. Similary, Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage because it pushes the consistency threshold too high - that is, the decks that want it can do broken things more consistently than is desirable when they have access to four of them.

[H]

Well, I think we have found at least one, somewhat, common denominator, in that the banned list is a major part of what defines Legacy. Not only what is on it, but also what isn't on it.

That being said, and in light of the recent banning of Treasure Cruise and unbanning of Worldgorger Dragon, what do people feel is the character of the banned list?

[nedleeds]

Hilariously under groomed.

[H]

Hilariously under groomed.

I have to say that at least they took off something we all pretty much knew shouldn't have been on there for a long time.

[btm10]

Hilariously under groomed.


I have to say that at least they took off something we all pretty much knew shouldn't have been on there for a long time.

I'll second both of these. I think I'd like to see a slightly more active ban policy as a way to force changes on Legacy but they shouldn't be nearly as aggressive as they are with Modern, and the easiest way to be aggressive now is to remove some potentially dangerous cards.

I'd rather have a hilariously broken metagame for 3-6 months than just keep playing Miracles vs. Blade vs. Delver vs. Elves vs. Show and Tell forever. Cruise fixed that a bit and Dig and Swiftspear might keep some of the URx decks strong enough to still compete, but UR Delver has the only even sort of new playstyle of those decks, with Grixis playing a lot like the BUG decks and UWR Blade playing like all of the other Blade decks. I'd like them to bypass probably-unplayable cards like Mind Twist and Black Vise and instead bring back things like Survival, Earthcraft, Frantic Search, and Mana Vault despite the risks they pose. At worst they reban the problematic cards, and Vault and Search aren't likely to suffer from availability problems, meaning unbanning followed by rebanning isn't likely to alienate players with price fluctuations.