(Chapin on) Monastery Mentor

[klaus]

Here's how Carsten evaluates MM:
"I'm gonna say it right now: Monastery Mentor is better than True-Name Nemesis (and also more interesting to play with and against). Yes, it's easier to kill but usually not without leaving some value behind. At the same time though, it similarly dominates the board (by flooding it with tokens) while fixing True-Name Nemesis' biggest weakness because it also provides a reasonable (or rather unreasonable, given how fast this can kill) clock on its own. Monastery Mentor basically has all the utility of Young Pyromancer in how flexible you can use the tokens with the huge difference that your army usually will be large not only in number but also in size.

I don't know how exactly that'll play out in Standard, but I expect Monastery Mentor to be a major player in the Eternal formats. If you manage to play three more spells the turn the Mentor is cast, another four the next turn bring things from twenty to zero in one fell swoop. In Vintage, this is actually reasonably easy to do between Gush, Gitaxian Probe, Mental Misstep, Force of Will, and all the artifact mana - which also triggers Mentor! - but even in Legacy it shouldn't be too hard to guarantee two tokens sitting in play if you plan for it (though it might depend on the opponent giving us a Daze target). That would make Mentor's leftovers after removal into basically a doubleMonastery Swiftspear draw, and I'm reasonably sure we all know by now how those play out.
[...] To cut all this a little short, I think Monastery Mentor is gonna be a big player, and it fuels exactly the kind of strategy Treasure Cruise has already given a push, though with enough of a midrange twist that we might see things moving from all out aggression with Delver to a slightly higher curve velocity deck that tries to faux-combo its opponents with its token generators."

Chapin also nicely sums up his dynamic impact here (though not with a Legacy focus):
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30012_Exclusive-Preview-Monastery-Master.html

Yes, this dude is bonkers.
Patrick already suggested UWx Control as a shell (my go to archetype for a decade) and obviously you try to squeeze him in prevalent lists first. So yeah:
"Miracles": -2 EtA, -1x // +3 Mentor?
--> why the hell not, he certainly has a similar effect, but is less dependent on Top to function, cannot be Pierced / Flusterstormed, is more resilient against EE/Ratchet Bomb etc., can be cast off of way less mana to own a game, etc.

"Blade Control": heck yes! Equipment + a Bitterblossom on steroids sounds fun.

The list of powerful applications goes on and on.
How do you guys evaluate MM?
---

PS, an experimental list off the top of my head:

4 MM
4 Delver
2 YP

4 BS
4 Ponder
4 TC

4 FoW
2 CS
3 Pierce
2 REB
4 STP
2 Bolt

2 EE

SB:
3 Fluster Storm
2 Pyroblast
2 Wear/Tear
1 Needle
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Jitte
1 Supreme Verdict

[Lemnear]

Except he's not talking about it in Eternal Formats but Standard.

[klaus]

Except he's not talking about it in Eternal Formats but Standard.

Thanks for y̶̶o̶̶u̶̶r̶̶ i̶̶n̶̶s̶̶p̶̶i̶̶r̶̶i̶̶n̶̶g̶̶ c̶̶o̶̶n̶̶t̶̶r̶̶i̶̶b̶̶u̶̶t̶̶i̶̶o̶̶n̶ pointing out the obvious, Lemnear. Way to start a discussion.

Anyway, I'm sure most people on the Source will agree that the description of his applications & dynamic impact holds true for any format.
Yes CMC2 VS 3 (YP VS. MM) does make a bigger difference in Legacy VS Standard/Modern, but it will certainly not keep deck builders from thoroughly testing this beast, and rightfully so.

[Barook]

Mentor is good and all, but why do we need an extra thread for this when we already have the spoiler thread?

[rufus]

I'm not sure that Monestary Mentor is going to work as a drop-in replacement for Entreat the Angels because MM really wants proactive spellcasting to be dangerous. You want to drop mentor, and then ride the added value of other spells to victory or use him as a combo element.

[klaus]

Mentor is good and all, but why do we need an extra thread for this when we already have the spoiler thread?

I thought about where to post, but then read the "Format & Article Discussion" description again and thought it'd be a good fit:
"For discussion related to innovating and advancing the Legacy metagame. Includes article discussion, metagame prediction and analysis, and new card discussion."

[Lemnear]

Thanks for y̶̶o̶̶u̶̶r̶̶ i̶̶n̶̶s̶̶p̶̶i̶̶r̶̶i̶̶n̶̶g̶̶ c̶̶o̶̶n̶̶t̶̶r̶̶i̶̶b̶̶u̶̶t̶̶i̶̶o̶̶n̶ pointing out the obvious, Lemnear. Way to start a discussion.

Anyway, I'm sure most people on the Source will agree that the description of his applications & dynamic impact holds true for any format.
Yes CMC2 VS 3 (YP VS. MM) does make a bigger difference in Legacy VS Standard/Modern, but it will certainly not keep deck builders from thoroughly testing this beast, and rightfully so.

My comment contributed as much to the topic of "Monastery Master in Legacy" as Patricks elaboration which doesn't have to consider printings like Plows, Bolts or Pyroclasms but consider Doomwake Giants and Hero's Downfall the formats prime removal. The relation between the cost for the threat and the solution is a big one completely left out from Patrick, excusable because it's a Standard article, but strickly misleading if brought up here. How would you like to profit from the Token-producing if you need to tap out for it turn 3 and it dies to anything? How would you like to build a Spell-heavy deck to chain cantrips to produce tokens (starting with turn 4!) if your manacurve for MM Tops @ 3 and Daze being a card? It has no immediate impact, no evasion, no protection and has to rival TNN for the cost which is a better Carrier for Equipment and for defense overall

[klaus]

Dear Lemnear,


My comment contributed as much to the topic of "Monastery Master in Legacy" as Patricks elaboration which doesn't have to consider printings like Plows, Bolts or Pyroclasms
"This creature dies to removal, so it's a no-go", is on-par with slippery slopes such as "this spell pitches to FoW, so it rocks in my Delver.dec". Nuff said.


The relation between the cost for the threat and the solution is a big one completely left out from Patrick, excusable because it's a Standard article, but strickly misleading if brought up here.
I daresay anyone on the source is capable of bridging this intellectually - why would you underestimate our community?
Excluding card analyses / evaluations from Source discussions, just because the related article doesn't herald "#legacy" appears rather narrow-minded to me. Besides his article does offer quite a bit of food for thought for any Eternal lover, who's looking for a new toy to tinker with.


How would you like to profit from the Token-producing if you need to tap out for it turn 3 and it dies to anything? How would you like to build a Spell-heavy deck to chain cantrips to produce tokens (starting with turn 4!) if your manacurve for MM Tops @ 3 and Daze being a card?
1.) Nobody forces you to tap out on turn three.
2.) "it's a three-drop, so Daze makes it unplayable" - really? I normally value your input, but why would you fuel your naysayer boat with such arguments?


It has no immediate impact, no evasion, no protection and has to rival TNN for the cost which is a better Carrier for Equipment and for defense overall
All valid points, but: just the prospect to untap with him online in the midgame and just let loose an army of sledgehammers is too appealing not to at least test a bit.
And that's exactly what imma do now :-P

[Lemnear]

Dear Lemnear,

"This creature dies to removal, so it's a no-go", is on-par with slippery slopes such as "this spell pitches to FoW, so it rocks in my Delver.dec". Nuff said.

"it dies to removal x" is in fact no argument. "It dies to EVERY COMMON played removal and it is a horrible tempo play" however is a bit different and that's what I was trying to highlight pointing at Bolt & Co. Let's face it: Monastery Master is a very aggressive card for a total non-aggressive manacost and therefore paradox itself. Building your deck to support 3cc cards which trade 1-for-1 with 1cc cards isn't getting you anywhere.


I daresay anyone on the source is capable of bridging this intellectually - why would you underestimate our community?
Excluding card analyses / evaluations from Source discussions, just because the related article doesn't herald "#legacy" appears rather narrow-minded to me. Besides his article does offer quite a bit of food for thought for any Eternal lover, who's looking for a new toy to tinker with.

Without the intent to piss on some peeps shoes potentially reading this: the B&R thread reminds me at times that setting things in context isn't as common as I thought it is, therefore I'm on the fence of drawing parallels between the formats in general and especially in that particular case, because deploying MM as a threat is usually as costy as it's solution in Standard unlike Legacy, a format in which "tempo" is a concept, unlike in Standard.


1.) Nobody forces you to tap out on turn three.
2.) "it's a three-drop, so Daze makes it unplayable" - really? I normally value your input, but why would you fuel your naysayer boat with such arguments?

Then forgive me that I did not immediately outline the problems within the widespread use of Daze, it being a 3cc card and despite of both, still a very aggressive card itself. Get me right: compared to stuff like Jace, TNN or Liliana which are intendend to roll over the field once the first dust settled and the game goes into the midgame and topdecking, Monastery Master is a proactive card which comes online once hands are usually emptied (or packed in case of combo), which is totally different to Swiftspear or even Pyromancer, not to talk about the gap of tempo-loss suffered if either Swiftspear gets answered or Monastery Master killed by a Bolt/Plow. In that context, the metagame presence of Daze and the cmc was relevant to mention imo. Sorry if MY CONTEXT was also lacking to make it clear


All valid points, but: just the prospect to untap with him online in the midgame and just let loose an army of sledgehammers is too appealing not to at least test a bit.
And that's exactly what imma do now :-P

Valid. As mentioned before, take a close look on your hand and options once it comes online: do you really have cantrips left during your turn 4 and ongoing to profit from the tokens and prowess or does it mirror my own experience with decks like Deathblade, that you are left with reactive cards or no hand at this point.

[somethingdotdotdot]

I don't think mentor is the best fit for a delver shell. Even though he is a 3 cc creature, he is best suited for later turns when you have the mana open to cast and trigger him. He is also different from pyromancer in that the best card that pairs with mentor is sensei's top which tends to be too slow in delver shells. I think the most apt comparison for mentor is to knight of the reliquary--a mid-late game card that will dominate on the board if he sticks as opposed to pyromancer which is an earlier threat that you try to protect with cheap countermagic.

[Lemnear]

I don't think mentor is the best fit for a delver shell. Even though he is a 3 cc creature, he is best suited for later turns when you have the mana open to cast and trigger him. He is also different from pyromancer in that the best card that pairs with mentor is sensei's top which tends to be too slow in delver shells. I think the most apt comparison for mentor is to knight of the reliquary--a mid-late game card that will dominate on the board if he sticks as opposed to pyromancer which is an earlier threat that you try to protect with cheap countermagic.

The question is: would you really want to play a card at that point of the game (aka players going into topdeck mode) which totally relies on your remaining hand?

[Aggro_zombies]

This thread is fine as-is. Also, Lemnear and klaus, please keep it civil.

As for the card itself: it would so much more powerful as a red card. Not being in the same color as burn (and Young Pyro) really dampens its prospects. White doesn't usually have much to contribute to tempo decks since its best cards in this format either don't play well with the cheap spells shell (hatebears) or are geared more toward a midrange or control deck (cards like StP and Stoneforge).

That said, I think the relevant point of comparison for this guy is Geist of Saint Traft. Both are somewhat flexible finisher-type cards that need additional support to enable them but are quite strong when that support is present. In Geist's case, you want equipment and/or ways to keep the board clear for the 2/2 main body; in Mentor's case, you want cheap spells. As there are many cheap spells that also keep the board clear, like Path, StP, Lightning Bolt, Forked Bolt, and so on, Mentor could potentially see play in a UWR midrange deck running Stoneforge, Delvers, and some combination of cantrips, cheap one-for-ones, and red Blasts. Actually, now that I think about it, Mentor probably replaces Geists in a lot of applications simply because it's harder to stonewall a mentor by sticking a resilient body in front of it (like, say TNN). Unfortunately, TNN replaced Geist for all intents and purposes in most decks that would be interested in this sort of thing, and it's not clear to me that Mentor has enough upsides to make it better than TNN.

[somethingdotdotdot]

@ Lemnear

That's why I think sdt is the best card to pair with mentor since sdt doesn't really matter upon the cards in your hand. With 2 tops you basically turn every mana you have into another token+prowess trigger. Even with one, you can reliably get in 5 power on the next turn as well as an additional token every turn (assuming mentor lives of course).

[Finn]

3 mana at sorcery speed is a heckuva lot of mana. You are going to tap out for a Pearled Unicorn rather often only to see your opponent do something more impressive and use a single mana to take care of it.

Also, you are in blue and white, yes? And presumably another color with noncreature spells that actually do something. You will be playing Mystic I presume, because it is a better card. That does not leave a lot of room for your required spells to make this work. Ahh, sure you can shave and cut corners to squeeze it all in, but this diminishes the card considerably.

I would be very surprised if this card goes anywhere in Legacy. I mean, Vindicate is too expensive. How can this conditional not-nearly lethal creature be?

[KobeBryan]

card is bonkers in bant. you have the mana dorks in nobles and drs. you can run a counter top /sensei's build.

The gsz recycles itself for more prowess and tokens, even when you dont fetch a creature with gsz

[Aggro_zombies]

Also, you are in blue and white, yes? And presumably another color with noncreature spells that actually do something. You will be playing Mystic I presume, because it is a better card. That does not leave a lot of room for your required spells to make this work. Ahh, sure you can shave and cut corners to squeeze it all in, but this diminishes the card considerably.

I would be very surprised if this card goes anywhere in Legacy. I mean, Vindicate is too expensive. How can this conditional not-nearly lethal creature be?
It's worth noting that Mentor triggers on "noncreature spell," so if you find a Jitte with SFM and then cast it, the Jitte will trigger both ends of Mentor, netting you a token and a 3/3. Similarly, casting Counterbalance or SDT will get a token and +1/+1. I think that makes it an easier sell in Esper Stoneblade-type decks that are a bit slower and noncreature-heavy. Actually, SFM and Mentor play decently with each other since Mentor can provide a steady stream of tokens for equipment, although if your plan is to find and cheat in Batterskull every time it might not be as good.

[Barook]

card is bonkers in bant. you have the mana dorks in nobles and drs. you can run a counter top /sensei's build.

The gsz recycles itself for more prowess and tokens, even when you dont fetch a creature with gsz
But is that better than the SFM + TNN plan?

[Lemnear]

But is that better than the SFM + TNN plan?

Given that MM has no evasion, no protection, does nothin on it's own and is a horrible Blocker and Equipment Carrier compared to TNN, I have my doubts. Even if you can turn Countertop into a win-con with MM on the table, it remains a fragile one (Decay, Pithing Needle, etc.) compared to Entreat which is miles more powerful if teaming with SDT, because you turn every mana spend into a 4/4 flyer instead of a 1/1 prowess.

I feel that there are huge steps for the card to make to enter Blade or Miracles, while the manacost is too clunky for really aggressive decks like UWR. I have no clue if the card has a home in Legacy. I can see it working in Vintage because of the additional mana acceleration and decks not being THAT packed with creature removal which you can also fight with Mental Misstep.

[Rizso]

But is that better than the SFM + TNN plan?

Its a diffrent plan that requires a diffrent way to attack it. Can swarm the board with dudes while opponent sits with his anti equipment cards in hand / play.

[Wordslinger]

To be fair if you do tap out on turn three for this, you do get value out of protecting it with force/daze or gitaxian probe, so it's not completly valueless to just run this out on three.

[Meekrab]

I can see this replacing Talrand in Vintage decks or playing alongside YP; if there's any format to get excited about spamming out Prowess dorks, it's the format where 80% of the average deck triggers them.

[Tammit67]

I'd love to loop tops with this guy in play. Is that too magical christmas land? I'm not sure

[JanoschEausH]

I think Monastery Mentor will be very good in each constructed format there is.

[Finn]

I'd love to loop tops with this guy in play. Is that too magical christmas land? I'm not sureprobably. If it is an unlimited loop, why not just play Brain Freeze? Or Grapeshot? That idea was bad ten years ago.

[emidln]

probably. If it is an unlimited loop, why not just play Brain Freeze? Or Grapeshot? That idea was bad ten years ago.

It doesn't need to be unlimited. It would function very similar to the way that Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek works. For each mana, you get a 1/1 and all of your existing dudes get +1/+1. This means on your 3 lands, the turn after you play the Mentor you're theoretically attacking for 4, and the following turn attacking for 16. The flip side is that you now have a three card combo, although a single top and sufficient cantrip density works pretty closely.

[klaus]

It doesn't need to be unlimited. It would function very similar to the way that Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek works. For each mana, you get a 1/1 and all of your existing dudes get +1/+1. This means on your 3 lands, the turn after you play the Mentor you're theoretically attacking for 4, and the following turn attacking for 16. The flip side is that you now have a three card combo, although a single top and sufficient cantrip density works pretty closely.

Ah emidln :laugh:
Nice of you dropping by!

I actually haven't found the time to test this dude, despite hyping him (on paper). I know, I know...
Did anybody else get any live action?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

It doesn't need to be unlimited. It would function very similar to the way that Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek works. For each mana, you get a 1/1 and all of your existing dudes get +1/+1. This means on your 3 lands, the turn after you play the Mentor you're theoretically attacking for 4, and the following turn attacking for 16. The flip side is that you now have a three card combo, although a single top and sufficient cantrip density works pretty closely.

The upside to Thopter/Sword is that only 1 part of the Mentor/cantrip combo is a bad on its own... Plus sometimes you have to deal with some problems (playing a StP or a counter) Then you didnt invest 1 mana into the engine, you get him for free, as bonus!
I mean if you untap with him, play a counterbalance and leave 1 mana up for your brainstorm, you didnt waste your turn making some tokens + you still get the value!

So dont overfocus on Mentor triggers, just play normal magic and get your reward from him! (Kinda like dont play tarfire to boost tarmogoyf)

[Captain Hammer]

The deck where I'm most excited to try him out is...

(Baneslayer) Angel Stompy
or Armageddon Stompy

Sol Lands that let you cast this guy on turn 1, Chalice that prevents your opponents from StPing it, Trinisphere and Armageddon that choke off any hope of your opponents being able to deal with your threat all together etc.

Tons of disruption/lock pieces plus a powerful threat that will end the game in a couple of turns is a match made in heaven.

[death]

With 3 mana accessible, I would lead off with 3sphere, followed by Chalice, then Mentor.

[klaus]

Edited Carsten's input in the OP.

[HugSeal]

The upside to Thopter/Sword is that only 1 part of the Mentor/cantrip combo is a bad on its own... Plus sometimes you have to deal with some problems (playing a StP or a counter) Then you didnt invest 1 mana into the engine, you get him for free, as bonus!
I mean if you untap with him, play a counterbalance and leave 1 mana up for your brainstorm, you didnt waste your turn making some tokens + you still get the value!

So dont overfocus on Mentor triggers, just play normal magic and get your reward from him! (Kinda like dont play tarfire to boost tarmogoyf)

Not entirely sure if I would call top bad on it's own though.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

The Mentor is a cool and good card but I think that Young Pyromancer and Monestary Swiftspear are better simply due to mana cost.

The comparison to TNN is pointless if you ask me. TNN often can't be dealt with, Mentor can be answered and many of the cantrip effects are sorcery speed. I can't understand why someone would prefer Mentor over TNN in a BladeX style deck as TNN is the best equipment carrier by far.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

Its a diffrent plan that requires a diffrent way to attack it. Can swarm the board with dudes while opponent sits with his anti equipment cards in hand / play.

Young Pyromancer does this better, Prowess is the only upside of Mentor but that is not worth going from 2cmc or 3cmc.

[klaus]

Young Pyromancer does this better, Prowess is the only upside of Mentor but that is not worth going from 2cmc or 3cmc.

Have you tested him yet?

[ivanpei]

Unfortunately True Name is just better at the 3cc slot. Being blue, true name also pitches to force against combo since he is too expensive and requires taping out.

True name is also usually game over with equipment. The barrier to entry for MM is simply the existence of TNN. MM may be interesting in a spell dominant BWR deck like team Italia?

Would be interesting to have a deck with Bitterblossoms, Yp, Mm, lots of discard, removal, equipment and cabal therapy. MM gives it the raw power the deck needs.

[MGB]

Yes, this dude is bonkers.
Patrick already suggested UWx Control as a shell (my go to archetype for a decade) and obviously you try to squeeze him in prevalent lists first. So yeah:
"Miracles": -2 EtA, -1x // +3 Mentor?
--> why the hell not, he certainly has a similar effect, but is less dependent on Top to function, cannot be Pierced / Flusterstormed, is more resilient against EE/Ratchet Bomb etc., can be cast off of way less mana to own a game, etc.


Huh. Patrick Chapin (and klaus!) turns out to be right about nearly everything Magic-related in the end.

Looks like the people who saw this coming kind of predicted it would eventually find its home in UWx (Miracle) control.

[iamajellydonut]

Looks like the people who saw this coming kind of predicted it would eventually find its home in UWx (Miracle) control.

Was there anyone who actually disputed that a potential home was Miracles?

[MGB]

Was there anyone who actually disputed that a potential home was Miracles?

Most people around here and anywhere else generally thought it was inferior to Entreat + whatever else Miracles already plays.

[iamajellydonut]

Most people around here and anywhere else generally thought it was inferior to Entreat + whatever else Miracles already plays.

I mean, it's still not strictly better by any interpretation of the term. Mentor has some very good strengths, but it also comes with quite a few weaknesses. They're two different kills.