[Tiny Leaders] Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo

[Aggro_zombies]

For those not aware, a (semi-)new version of Commander is making the rounds right now, called Tiny Leaders. You can read more about it here (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30000_The-Best-New-Format-In-Magic.html), and see the Banned list here (http://tinyleaders.blogspot.com/p/ban-list.html). The gist of it is that you're playing 1v1 with 25 starting life, no Commander damage, a 49 card deck plus general, and normal Commander deckbuilding rules with the added stipulation that no card in your deck can cost more than three mana. There is also an option for a ten card sideboard.

My first take on a deck for this format is based on the recently spoiled Shu Yun (http://www.mythicspoiler.com/frf/cards/shuyunthesilenttempest.html), and is patterned off of UR/x Delver lists:

General: Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest

Delver of Secrets
Grim Lavamancer
Monastery Swiftspear
Phantasmal Image
Seeker of the Way
Snapcaster Mage
Spellstutter Sprite
Young Pyromancer
Brimaz, King of Oreskos
Geist of Saint Traft
Mantis Rider
Monastery Mentor
Vendilion Clique

Jeskai Ascendancy
Threads of Disloyalty

Brainstorm
Ponder
Preordain
Desperate Ravings
Izzet Charm
Sphinx's Revelation

Lightning Bolt
Path to Exile
Swords to Plowshares
Cyclonic Rift
Lightning Helix
Electrolyze

Spell Pierce
Spell Snare
Mana Leak
Remand

Distortion Strike

Volcanic Island
Tundra
Steam Vents
Hallowed Fountain
Plateau
Arid Mesa
Flooded Strand
Scalding Tarn
Misty Rainforest
Polluted Delta
Command Tower
Wasteland
3 Island
Plains
Mountain

Sideboard:
Tormod's Crypt
Relic of Progenitus
Oblivion Ring
Flusterstorm
Counterspell
Boros Charm
Disenchant
Wear / Tear
Pyroclasm
Anger of the Gods

The plan is pretty standard: tempo beatdown. Not having Force is a bummer, and I'm not convinced Daze is all that good in this format as a one-of, but the counters I did include should be sufficient to keep the opponent from doing anything too devastating while I clock with Shu Yun and friends. I may want to add another Distortion Strike-style card at some point if Strike itself turns out to be good (and with Shu Yun, D-Strike represents 20 damage over two turns).

Since I couldn't just load up on Delvers and Swiftspears and call it a day, my creature selections may look a bit off. Generally, I wanted my creatures to do at least one of three things: provide disruption, hit above their weight, or generate additional bodies. Some, like Brimaz, fill more than one role. It's possible that I should be running Stoneforge plus an equipment package (since equipment will trigger prowess when cast), but Clamp and Jitte are banned and the legal Swords of X and Y are probably too slow for this style of deck. That leaves...Bonesplitter and I don't know what else.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Interesting foramt nad decks, i like how this is different from usual EDH monstrosities with high cmc stuff and such.
I guess the Swords are solid choices, especially as they protect the dude and can win the game on their own.

[Aggro_zombies]

SoFF is probably the best legal Sword. It gives you protection from black, which is huge because black is very good in this format, and can provide double discard with Shu Yun's double strike-granting trigger. SoFI is probably the second best Sword but I'd prefer not to give my creatures protection from my general. The other two legal Swords seem not great.

Doing a quick search for equipment, the following seem playable:

Adventuring Gear - build your own Steppe Lynx.
Bonesplitter - cheap, useful bonus.
Silver-Inlaid Dagger - gets Shu Yun to six power. Casting a spell gets him to a 7/3 double strike.
Manriki-Gusari - not sure how relevant equipment destruction would be in this format, but getting Shu Yun to 5/4 is fine.
Swiftfoot Boots - probably less relevant here than in regular EDH
Grafted Wargear - free equip is a big deal since it makes it more likely you can cast the equipment, pay for double strike, and then equip
SoFF

Of those, I consider Bonesplitter and SoFF to be realistic options, which makes it tough to justify also including SFM.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

SoFF is probably the best legal Sword. It gives you protection from black, which is huge because black is very good in this format, and can provide double discard with Shu Yun's double strike-granting trigger. SoFI is probably the second best Sword but I'd prefer not to give my creatures protection from my general. The other two legal Swords seem not great.

Doing a quick search for equipment, the following seem playable:

Adventuring Gear - build your own Steppe Lynx.
Bonesplitter - cheap, useful bonus.
Silver-Inlaid Dagger - gets Shu Yun to six power. Casting a spell gets him to a 7/3 double strike.
Manriki-Gusari - not sure how relevant equipment destruction would be in this format, but getting Shu Yun to 5/4 is fine.
Swiftfoot Boots - probably less relevant here than in regular EDH
Grafted Wargear - free equip is a big deal since it makes it more likely you can cast the equipment, pay for double strike, and then equip
SoFF

Of those, I consider Bonesplitter and SoFF to be realistic options, which makes it tough to justify also including SFM.

Yeah, SoFI is not exactly good due to the pro:blue. I think that SoLS is an interesting option too. It gives protection from Terror and Swords and it also gives you back life lost, which can be important in a format without general's damage, where every life point is equally important.

[Davran]

Is True-Name Nemesis worth inclusion? It doesn't really fit the prowess theme I suppose, but it is a threat.

Are things like Mental Misstep, Gut Shot and Gitaxian Probe worth it as "free" prowess/pyromancer triggers? Probe in particular seems like it could be good since it gives you fairly decent information for your tempo plan.

[TsumiBand]

Mmmmm, a 1v1-aimed EDH variant... nice. Dat banlist tho. Sword of Body and Mind?! Goblin Recruiter with no combo pieces (no Ringleader)? Efficient Black tutors are out but Top is in? Heh sure fine :P

I should like proxy up a list for this format or something, I wouldn't be opposed to a miniaturized version of EDH.

[Aggro_zombies]

TNN could be fine, but without equipment to carry I suspect he'll just be fine. He could be better than Mantis Rider, though.

Git Probe is actually a good inclusion, I'm surprised I missed it. I have Spellstutter in there as a MM that can attack, but maybe actual MM is also worth including, at least in the side as an answer to the likes of StP, Thoughtseize, and Inquisition. I don't know how many x/1s I should expect to face, so I don't know how good Gut Shot would be. It does kill Bob for free, though, which is nice.

So far I've had second thoughts about 17 lands in this deck. 17 lands is roughly 20 lands in 60-card-land, and given that I want to cast spells and pay two mana to grant double strike I may need a higher proportion of lands to guarantee getting to at least five. I'll cut Cyclonic Rift and go up to 18 lands with an eye to potentially going to 19 lands (23 in 60 cards) if I feel too mana-light.

[Ace/Homebrew]

The gist of it is that you're playing 1v1 with 25 starting life, no Commander damage, a 49 card deck plus general, and normal Commander deckbuilding rules with the added stipulation that no card in your deck can cost more than three mana.


Just like Commander, your commander starts in the command zone, can be cast as if it was in your hand, and if it would die or be exiled, can return to the command zone at your option, where it will cost two more to cast for each time it's been cast from the command zone that game. Similarly, "Commander damage," combat damage dealt to your opponent by your commander, is tracked, and if you've been dealt 21 damage or more by any one general, you lose regardless of your life total.

There would have to be commander damage. Otherwise lifegain.dec is too good.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I finally got down to the comments section where someone informs the SCG writer of his mistake.

So it seems like lifegain.dec is the way to go then?

[Aggro_zombies]

There would have to be commander damage. Otherwise lifegain.dec is too good.
The FAQ (http://tinyleaders.blogspot.com/p/tiny-leaders-magic-gathering-format.html) on the home site for Tiny Leaders says it ignores Commander damage. I'm not entirely sure about life gain, either, especially given that Ambassador Laquatus is legal and makes for a pretty saucy mill deck. I do kind of want to try Lin Sivvi with an infinite life combo thrown in, but I suspect it would be very Tier II.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Actually mill seems like a doable strategy in a 1v1 format where you start with a 42 card library. :really:
Unfortunately :u::b:'s only legal Tiny Leader is Sygg, River Cutthroat. But if you jam every awful mill card into a deck, you could conceivably leave them unable to draw from their library by turn 8...

T1: Island > Hedron Crab
T2: Fetch for Swamp > Glimpse the Unthinkable. Opponent mills 16.
T3: Land > Mind Sculpt. Opponent mills 10.
T4: Mind Funeral. Let's say opponent mills 8.
T5: Land > Tome Scour

Not to mention any cards the opponent draws naturally for their turn.
Probably still awful.


Sorry, didn't intend to derail.

[Aggro_zombies]

No worries, it's fine.

As I understand it, there's two approaches to mill in this format. The first is a High Tide deck involving Brain Freeze (required storm count often being only 12 or so, but your untap options aren't great) and the second is a Power Artifact / Basalt Monolith or Grim Monolith deck with Laquatus as the general. Neither deck runs tons of mill cards per se; they're mostly disruptive combo-control decks looking to blow you out in a big finish. I feel like the Laquatus deck is going to be better most of the time just because you're guaranteed access to a mill piece even if you can't resolve or don't find the mana combo, and of course the only ways to fight mill specifically in this format are either on-board Feldon's Cane-style things (that don't work versus Laquatus plus lots of mana) or Gaea's Blessing.

I mostly just plan to race a deck like that while using countermagic to keep the opponent off of the win. A Gilded Light in the sideboard might be worth it, though. Grapeshot is also legal in this format, but who knows how good a Grixis storm deck would be...

[Davran]

TNN could be fine, but without equipment to carry I suspect he'll just be fine. He could be better than Mantis Rider, though.

Git Probe is actually a good inclusion, I'm surprised I missed it. I have Spellstutter in there as a MM that can attack, but maybe actual MM is also worth including, at least in the side as an answer to the likes of StP, Thoughtseize, and Inquisition. I don't know how many x/1s I should expect to face, so I don't know how good Gut Shot would be. It does kill Bob for free, though, which is nice.

So far I've had second thoughts about 17 lands in this deck. 17 lands is roughly 20 lands in 60-card-land, and given that I want to cast spells and pay two mana to grant double strike I may need a higher proportion of lands to guarantee getting to at least five. I'll cut Cyclonic Rift and go up to 18 lands with an eye to potentially going to 19 lands (23 in 60 cards) if I feel too mana-light.

TNN vs. Mantis Rider is actually a somewhat interesting question. I suppose it depends on whether Electrickery and/or Pyroclasm effects are popular enough in the format to make 1 toughness a liability. TNN doesn't die to Bolt while Mantis does, and I suspect Bolt is pretty strong given the deck construction rules.

I agree that 17 lands seems a little light - maybe stick a Celestial Colonnade in as your 18th land that's also a mid to late game attacker? Coming into play tapped is a bummer, but I think the benefits outweigh the number of times it'll be an awkward draw.

Thinking about this format has actually gotten me interested, so thanks for that. Time to see if I can get my playgroup on board...

[Ace/Homebrew]

TNN vs. Mantis Rider is actually a somewhat interesting question. I suppose it depends on whether Electrickery and/or Pyroclasm effects are popular enough in the format to make 1 toughness a liability.

True-Name Nemesis doesn't care about Electrickery and/or Pyroclasm effects.
They deal damage even though they don't target. (TNN reads: This creature can't be... dealt damage... by anything controlled by that player.)

[Davran]

True-Name Nemesis doesn't care about Electrickery and/or Pyroclasm effects.
They deal damage even though they don't target. (TNN reads: This creature can't be... dealt damage... by anything controlled by that player.)

Reasons why posting shit to forums before 10am is a bad idea.

[Aggro_zombies]

Well, one toughness versus three is relevant for the like of Toxic Deluge, Black Sun's Zenith, and other Infest variants.

Dunno how relevant those will be, though. BUG seems like the best control colors but they're also the colors without a general, meaning you have to play the Rules Committee-approved Grey Ogre (just a legendary BUG 2/2). Being the only remaining color combination that doesn't have a real general is shitty, but oh well.

[Davran]

Well, one toughness versus three is relevant for the like of Toxic Deluge, Black Sun's Zenith, and other Infest variants.

Dunno how relevant those will be, though. BUG seems like the best control colors but they're also the colors without a general, meaning you have to play the Rules Committee-approved Grey Ogre (just a legendary BUG 2/2). Being the only remaining color combination that doesn't have a real general is shitty, but oh well.

Unfortunately there are some fairly large holes in terms of generals when you get into various color combinations. Grixis only has one, UB has one, UG has one since Edric is banned...the list goes on. The more I think about this format the more I like the idea of it, but at the same time the restriction on "commander" cost seems to keep things very samey. Hopefully WotC prints some more cheap legendary creatures in the near future.

Junk (abzan or whatever) is right up there in terms of power level too. You can essentially play Rock with Doran as your commander...almost all of that deck is legal in this format, and much of it is quite strong.

Back on topic, I think Toxic Deluge and BSZ get you no matter which creature you choose, so Infest is probably the card to beat in this scenario (assuming you even care about an Infest). There's Council's Judgement too I suppose, but again, that's getting you either way. Do people play Engineered Plague in their sideboards? I assume elf-ball is a thing in this format, so maybe that's something that gets TNN too (regardless of the value of siding in a card to beat one card in your deck)?

Crazy thought - have you considered Sulfuric Vortex at all? I know you're not really a burn deck per se, but it seems like a dedicated lifegain strategy might be tough for you to beat.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Have you had an opportunity to try out your list? I realize several cards are not available currently (including the most important one...), but proxies are a thing so I'm not considering that a true barrier to playing.

I am curious to hear how much/quickly your local group adopts this as a legitimate format.

Years ago peasant EDH caught on in my area because a local shop was holding tournaments with 1st place getting a foil version of their deck. That format died immediately after the shop stopped hosting tournaments. It just wasn't as much fun as EDH or Legacy...

[Aggro_zombies]

I got the chance to test it tonight against two...not exactly real decks: Marath tribal Slivers and Animar Heartbeat combo. Marath is actually a huge beating just by itself (the Slivers were easily answerable by the board plan) since it kills most of this deck's creatures on the first cast and will kill all of them and survive on subsequent castings. I was able to roundly beat this deck mostly because the Slivers weren't all that great and they didn't have shroud to save them from my removal. I think I may want a Pithing Needle or Suppression Field in the side to answer commander abilities.

The Animar deck was interesting and contains the germ of an idea: Reiterate and Early Harvest net you infinite mana with a Heartbeat/Mana Flare, at which point any X spell will win. Accordingly, it included both Burning and Cunning Wishes (to find X spells) and a few in the main, like Comet Storm. The rest of the cards were ramp, dig, ways to prevent interaction (Defense Grid and the like), and sweepers. I think with a different draw suite and a more focused main, the deck could have been a competitive combo-control deck; as it was, I was able to easily dismantle it mostly because this deck can put out absurd amounts of damage in short order. I brought in Flusterstorm, Counterspell, and Wear / Tear, although Flusterstorm ended up not having much to do while a second Disenchant effect would have helped. I sided out white removal because it couldn't hit Animar and there didn't seem to be other creatures in the deck.

There's a few issues with the deck. Happily, I didn't feel a particular need for an equipment package with Stoneforge, so that's not something I want to add right now. The following cards didn't really pull their weight: Spellstutter (irrelevant body, paying two to counter one is not good), Spell Snare (narrow), Threads of Disloyalty (better in the board, maybe? Kinda pricey and low-impact in the main, but it may be an artifact of my testing), Geist of St. Traft (main body is so fragile). Think Twice seems like it would be excellent, perhaps in place of Spellstutter. Monastery Mentor is an absolutely absurd card, as is Jeskai Ascendancy (hooooly hell how did this card see print as-is?!). I'm wondering if Azorius Guildmage or perhaps New Prahv Guildmage would be worth it; the former has two useful abilities on an okay body while the latter grants evasion and has another ability that may be okay in a long game. Izzet Guildmage giving me double cantrips seems like gas but it may be too pricey.

[Davran]

There's a few issues with the deck. Happily, I didn't feel a particular need for an equipment package with Stoneforge, so that's not something I want to add right now. The following cards didn't really pull their weight: Spellstutter (irrelevant body, paying two to counter one is not good), Spell Snare (narrow), Threads of Disloyalty (better in the board, maybe? Kinda pricey and low-impact in the main, but it may be an artifact of my testing), Geist of St. Traft (main body is so fragile). Think Twice seems like it would be excellent, perhaps in place of Spellstutter. Monastery Mentor is an absolutely absurd card, as is Jeskai Ascendancy (hooooly hell how did this card see print as-is?!). I'm wondering if Azorius Guildmage or perhaps New Prahv Guildmage would be worth it; the former has two useful abilities on an okay body while the latter grants evasion and has another ability that may be okay in a long game. Izzet Guildmage giving me double cantrips seems like gas but it may be too pricey.

What about Stifle if you're looking for an Azorius Guildmage effect? Is Isochron Scepter worth it instead of Izzet Guildmage? Maybe Fire | Ice too?

[Aggro_zombies]

Stifle is a possibility, but I'm leery about it for two reasons: first, I don't want to cut too many bodies, and second, just having a random one-of Stifle doesn't seem all that good. That's actually sort of the logic why I'm not running Daze: since I can't run four copies of the card plus four copies of Brainstorm to make it likely I'll find one in the first few turns where it's most relevant, it seems a lot more loose. Azorius Guildmage at least beats for two and can tap a blocker on a critical turn, none of which is great but all of which is basically functional.

Scepter could be interesting. Scepter-Chant, anyone? Not sure how good it would be, though, since I'm not sure how much artifact hate to expect on average. Still, it's nice that activating Scepter will trigger prowess and Shu Yun's double strike ability.

Going back to bodies, I'm looking to replace Spellstutter and Geist. Geist can become TNN pretty safely, I think. Spellstutter can become one of the following: Serra Avenger, Azorius Guildmage, Izzet Guildmage. I don't think any of those guys are particularly good or anything, but they are warm bodies that are either reasonably sized or which have decent abilities. I can replace Threads in the main with Think Twice and replace Relic in the side with Threads or Needle. I don't think I'll have time to test the deck more until mid-next week, but that sounds like a good round of changes for now.

[Davran]

Stifle is a possibility, but I'm leery about it for two reasons: first, I don't want to cut too many bodies, and second, just having a random one-of Stifle doesn't seem all that good. That's actually sort of the logic why I'm not running Daze: since I can't run four copies of the card plus four copies of Brainstorm to make it likely I'll find one in the first few turns where it's most relevant, it seems a lot more loose. Azorius Guildmage at least beats for two and can tap a blocker on a critical turn, none of which is great but all of which is basically functional.

You make a good point here about random 1-of cards, but doesn't Guildmage also fit that description? Given Prowess, are you going to have 3 mana floating around for part of a Stifle and/or Benalish Trapper if/when you need it?


Scepter could be interesting. Scepter-Chant, anyone? Not sure how good it would be, though, since I'm not sure how much artifact hate to expect on average. Still, it's nice that activating Scepter will trigger prowess and Shu Yun's double strike ability.

My thinking exactly. I'm sure there's some amount of dedicated artifact hate out there, but at the very least you should expect Abrupt Decay.


Going back to bodies, I'm looking to replace Spellstutter and Geist. Geist can become TNN pretty safely, I think. Spellstutter can become one of the following: Serra Avenger, Azorius Guildmage, Izzet Guildmage. I don't think any of those guys are particularly good or anything, but they are warm bodies that are either reasonably sized or which have decent abilities. I can replace Threads in the main with Think Twice and replace Relic in the side with Threads or Needle. I don't think I'll have time to test the deck more until mid-next week, but that sounds like a good round of changes for now.

Is Jeskai Elder a consideration at all? It's objectively worse on its own, but given that you're fully on the prowess plan it might be able to equal or outclass the other options while either forcing a block or providing some card selection.

[AngryTroll]

From good to bad:
Meddling Mage seems like a no-brainer in those colors somewhere in the deck or sideboard.

I was surprised that Fire/Ice and Chain Lightning weren't in your list.

Is Goblin Rabblemaster good enough to play?

I wish Goblin Legionnaire and Mogg Fanatic were good enough to play, but they're both a bit underpowered now that damage doesn't use the stack.

[Aggro_zombies]

You make a good point here about random 1-of cards, but doesn't Guildmage also fit that description? Given Prowess, are you going to have 3 mana floating around for part of a Stifle and/or Benalish Trapper if/when you need it?
Well, my thinking was that Stifle and Daze specifically are Time Walk cards, and thus are at their best in the first three-ish turns when being forced to skip a turn is most punishing and most difficult to avoid. Their value drops off very quickly after that, though, so not being able to load up on enough of that effect to guarantee seeing it early makes me less likely to want to run any of it. Perhaps I am wrong and Stifle and/or Squelch are good here, but I also want to avoid running too many purely reactive cards.

Here's my current pros and cons on the various two-drop options:

Serra Avenger
Pros:
Has better than Bear stats
Vigilance and evasion mean it will have something to do on most board states
Cons:
Can't be cast until turn four and can't attack until turn five, making it slow
3/3 seems to be less durable than I thought initially

Meddling Mage
Pros:
Keeps people off their generals
Is good against specific 2+ card combos
Cons:
Is a 2/2 for two
Not all that good versus decks with a lot of redundancy and which don't rely heavily on the general

Azorius Guildmage
Pros:
Tapping a blocker in a key combat can potentially force through a lot of damage, forcing an opponent to hold back more
Good at stonewalling specific big threats
The Squelch ability can be randomly useful
Cons:
Is a 2/2 for two
None of its abilities are particularly backbreaking
Can be mana-intensive in the midgame

Izzet Guildmage
Pros:
Double Bolts, Paths, Swords, and cantrips can be extremely powerful
Powerful way to set up big turns by filling your hand with cards
Cons:
Is a 2/2 for two
Potentially more cute than good - double Ponder would be 2UR, for example
Competes with Shu Yun for mana on big turns

Jeskai Elder
Pros:
Looter and prowess effect
Probably one of the less threatening creatures that will be attacking, so more likely to get through
Cons:
Is not even a 2/2 for two
No evasion means it virtually requires a spell to be cast in order to attack or block effectively


I was surprised that Fire/Ice and Chain Lightning weren't in your list.
I could go more burn-heavy, to be honest. I want to prioritize cantrips first, but I could definitely see adding at least Chain Lightning.


Is Goblin Rabblemaster good enough to play?
...maybe? It does fit the general theme of creatures that are generally threatening on their own (through their ability to generate board presence), but I have the sneaking suspicion being a base 2/2 for three might sink it. 2/2s without evasion seem like they are very, very easy to outclass in this format, and Rabblemaster doesn't generate tokens at a huge rate or anything.

[Aggro_zombies]

Okay, I think for my next playtesting session I'm going to try the following:

Delver of Secrets
Grim Lavamancer
Monastery Swiftspear
Izzet Guildmage
Phantasmal Image
Seeker of the Way
Snapcaster Mage
Young Pyromancer
Brimaz, King of Oreskos
Mantis Rider
Monastery Mentor
True-Name Nemesis
Vendilion Clique

Distortion Strike
Jeskai Ascendancy

Brainstorm
Ponder
Preordain
Desperate Ravings
Izzet Charm
Think Twice
Sphinx's Revelation

Lightning Bolt
Path to Exile
Swords to Plowshares
Lightning Helix

Spell Pierce
Spell Snare
Counterspell
Remand

Volcanic Island
Tundra
Steam Vents
Hallowed Fountain
Plateau
Sacred Foundry
Arid Mesa
Flooded Strand
Scalding Tarn
Misty Rainforest
Polluted Delta
Command Tower
Wasteland
3 Island
Plains
Mountain

I want to try out Izzet Guildmage in the two-drop slot in part because I think it's the most fun of the options under consideration. If it doesn't work out (and I don't suspect it will), I'll swap it over to Chain Lightning.

[Allcoin]

I was thinking about playing this deck, but was thinking of also running Stoneforge mystic, and e-tutor, try to optimize the deck as much as I can to the legacy cards that I have I suppose...

[Aggro_zombies]

SFM is probably fine. I'd run Bonesplitter, Runechanter's Pike, and SoFF as your equipment options.

[Davran]

SFM is probably fine. I'd run Bonesplitter, Runechanter's Pike, and SoFF as your equipment options.

SoFI seems fairly good too given what I assume will be a whole ton of low toughness dudes running around. There's also Grafted Wargear - I don't think the "downside" is really all that bad since if you're trying to re-equip your guy probably ate a Doom Blade already anyway. That said, I think the options you listed are definitely where I would start.

[Aggro_zombies]

I would want to run SoFI, but it gives the creature protection from my general at just the time I really want to grant that creature double strike. Spell, double strike, equip is usually going to be a five mana play, which is really, really mana-intensive in this deck.

I could see building a counter-control version of Shu Yun that's less explosive and more focused on playing the best cards in these colors, but I don't feel like Jeskai is the right color combination for that - at least, not with Shu Yun. I could see a Tetsuo Umezawa build like that, though. I think Shu Yun's strength is that he can produce a lot of damage very quickly so focusing on high-quality threats and stringing them together with cantrips and light disruption to maintain a lead is probably the best thing you can do with him.

That said, r/tinyleaders convinced me to shave out some of the middling dorks for more instants and sorceries, so I'm moving to this:

Delver of Secrets
Grim Lavamancer
Monastery Swiftspear
Phantasmal Image
Snapcaster Mage
Young Pyromancer
Brimaz, King of Oreskos
Monastery Mentor
True-Name Nemesis
Vendilion Clique

Distortion Strike
Jeskai Ascendancy

Brainstorm
Gitaxian Probe
Ponder
Preordain
Desperate Ravings
Izzet Charm
Telling Time
Think Twice
Sphinx's Revelation

Lightning Bolt
Path to Exile
Swords to Plowshares
Fire / Ice
Lightning Helix

Spell Pierce
Spell Snare
Counterspell
Mana Leak
Remand

Volcanic Island
Tundra
Steam Vents
Hallowed Fountain
Plateau
Sacred Foundry
Arid Mesa
Flooded Strand
Scalding Tarn
Misty Rainforest
Polluted Delta
Command Tower
Mystic Monastery
Wasteland
2 Island
Plains
Mountain

Sideboard:
Tormod's Crypt
Suppression Field
Flusterstorm
Mental Misstep
Boros Charm
Disenchant
Wear / Tear
Timely Reinforcements
Bonfire of the Damned
Pyroclasm

To my unending embarrassment I seem to have lost my Chain Lightnings, so I'm going with Fire//Ice instead even though I think CL is the superior card here. I could also see myself shaving Desperate Ravings for another counterspell, possibly either Daze (ugh) or Miscalculation.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Fire / Ice
Wear / Tear



Sorry to comment on something completely unrelated, but you have no idea how much time I've wasted failing at linking split cards. Really happy to figure this out, even if I rarely post magic stuff!

[Davran]

To my unending embarrassment I seem to have lost my Chain Lightnings, so I'm going with Fire//Ice instead even though I think CL is the superior card here. I could also see myself shaving Desperate Ravings for another counterspell, possibly either Daze (ugh) or Miscalculation.

I like the list.

What about Impulse over Telling Time? They're more or less equivalent, but Impulse does get you one card deeper when you're really trying to dig into a counter or that game winning Bolt.

Not sure I agree about Chain Lightning over Fire / Ice because CL is a sorcery. My personal philosophy is to play cards that give me as many options as possible, so things like Izzet Charm, Fire / Ice and Turn / Burn generally get the nod over "better" spells.

I'd probably play Miscalculation over Daze. Worst case you cycle the Miscalculation away if it's really terrible.

[Sturtzilla]

I really like the look of the initial list. It seems like there is some real potential for this deck. One card that seems to have been overlooked Disrupting Shoal. In a format of CMCs 1-3, this seems very easy to hard cast not to mention the alternate casting cost.

[Aggro_zombies]

The list in the OP is an acceptable starting point, but testing has brought me to this:

Delver of Secrets
Grim Lavamancer
Monastery Swiftspear
Snapcaster Mage
Young Pyromancer
Brimaz, King of Oreskos
Monastery Mentor
True-Name Nemesis
Vendilion Clique

Distortion Strike
Jeskai Ascendancy

Brainstorm
Gitaxian Probe
Ponder
Preordain
Desperate Ravings
Izzet Charm
Telling Time
Think Twice

Lightning Bolt
Path to Exile
Swords to Plowshares
Fire / Ice
Lightning Helix
Bonfire of the Damned

Spell Pierce
Spell Snare
Mental Misstep
Counterspell
Mana Leak
Remand

Volcanic Island
Tundra
Steam Vents
Hallowed Fountain
Plateau
Sacred Foundry
Arid Mesa
Flooded Strand
Scalding Tarn
Misty Rainforest
Polluted Delta
Command Tower
Mystic Gate
Cascade Bluffs
Wasteland
Island
Plains
Mountain

Sideboard:
Suppression Field
Flusterstorm
Monastery Siege
Boros Charm
Disenchant
Wear / Tear
Timely Reinforcements
Pyroclasm
2 Flex Slots

There's a few things worth noting about this deck: first, you are slightly slower to kill than GoST in this build specifically (some builds run equipment to circumvent this). You make up for it by not being dependent on Geist, or in this case Shu Yun, to win because you have more creatures, token generation capability, and some burn. Second, you don't want to run more than six to seven maindeck counters. SY really wants you to cast spells at sorcery speed prior to combat, and running too many counters means there will be too many hands where you can't feed SY in your main and you have to move to attack with just a 3/2. I think if you want to run a bunch of counters you should probably be on GoST. As for Shoal specifically, the two-for-one nature is rough and the fact that it requires exactly the right cmc makes it worse, I think. I could see it in the sideboard if you wanted more permission but the counter suite in the main has been fine as-is. Third, I think the main can still use some tweaks. I'm souring on Ravings since you tend to pare your hand down to just business spells pretty quickly, and the +1 card advantage on the front end (and flashback on the back end) are just okay. I feel like I could do better in this slot, perhaps with bounce, perhaps with another burn spell. I really wish there were a competent GoST or Merieke Ri Berit player with an optimized list around here for testing purposes, but oh well. I suspect this deck has a hard time with Esper Control because GoST has a hard time with Esper Control and the decks are similar in terms of how to attack them.

[AngryTroll]

Are Think Twice and Telling Time better than Serum Visions, Portent, and Magma Jet? Telling Time seems underwhelming, and although you can cast Think Twice, well, twice, it seems mediocre both times. The cards I suggested don't seem wildly better than Think Twice and Telling Time but seem to be at about the same power level.

I did just see your comment about Chain Lightning-would you replace Fire / Ice with it, or something else?

[Esper3k]

Sensei's Divining Top seems great too. It even triggers Prowess!

I feel like you want to use Ajani, Caller of the Pride as well. Planeswalkers are so few and rare in TL (only 7 legal ones) that any decent planeswalker is very powerful, imo.

Also, since you're in the colors... no Geist of St. Traft?

I feel like you can probably trim Desperate Ravings, Telling Time, and Think Twice for something better?

[Aggro_zombies]

Are Think Twice and Telling Time better than Serum Visions, Portent, and Magma Jet? Telling Time seems underwhelming, and although you can cast Think Twice, well, twice, it seems mediocre both times. The cards I suggested don't seem wildly better than Think Twice and Telling Time but seem to be at about the same power level.
Flashback spells in general are very good with the prowess mechanic, since they give you prowess triggers on two separate turns (or twice in one turn if you're trying to win). I don't think Portent is a playable card just in general, and Serum Visions is thoroughly mediocre. Jet could be okay but I'd want to have more "three damage for one mana" spells before I started running "two for two" spells, so Chain Lightning would go in over it. I could see cutting Fire/Ice for Jet but F/I is just so versatile.


Sensei's Divining Top seems great too. It even triggers Prowess!
I only have five shuffle effects.


I feel like you want to use Ajani, Caller of the Pride as well. Planeswalkers are so few and rare in TL (only 7 legal ones) that any decent planeswalker is very powerful, imo.
Ajani is maybe kind of mediocre, but I could see both Dack and Jace being good in this deck. Dack has the better plus mode, and stealing equipment is groovy, though Jace is a pretty consistent card advantage engine. Also, I have a Jace but not a Dack, and Dack is still $20ish, so...


Also, since you're in the colors... no Geist of St. Traft?
This comes up quite often and I'm not sure why - is my experience with this card just different than every other person alive? Geist is three mana for a four damage burn spell with the additional text, "Your opponent must block with a 2/x or better." I started out with the guy in my list and that was literally all he ever was. Sometimes he wasn't even a burn spell because my opponent had cast Lingering Souls or had Thopter Foundry going and Geist was just a three mana do-nothing. Is the argument that I should run Geist because he's good in the abstract and that I should then run equipment and more removal to make Geist good in context? But I think if you're doing all this stuff to make Geist good you should just build Geist, The Deck, since loosing red is well worth having guaranteed access to your build-around.

Sorry if that came off a bit rant-y, I didn't intend it aggressively or anything. It's just that the first comment people have is literally always, "Where's Geist?" and then they're confused when I say he's not good.

[mrjumbo03]

So as is, what would you cut for Chain Lightning, Dack Fayden and maybe Jace Beleren?

[Aggro_zombies]

Chain Lightning can go in over either Fire/Ice or Desperate Ravings. Ravings could also just become Impulse, in which case F/I would become CL.

Dack...is harder. I think he's better than Jace overall, but Jace may still be worth considering as an anti-control sideboard option since being able to outdraw the opponent seems pretty sweet and they're not usually in a great position to kill a planeswalker. Either way, they'd probably replace a draw spell, possibly Telling Time even though that card has been pretty solid in testing.

It's possible that Dack is just better in the board in one of the flex slots. I haven't particularly felt the need for continuous draw effects, and both planeswalkers cost three.

[AngryTroll]

Flashback spells in general are very good with the prowess mechanic, since they give you prowess triggers on two separate turns (or twice in one turn if you're trying to win). I don't think Portent is a playable card just in general, and Serum Visions is thoroughly mediocre. Jet could be okay but I'd want to have more "three damage for one mana" spells before I started running "two for two" spells, so Chain Lightning would go in over it. I could see cutting Fire/Ice for Jet but F/I is just so versatile.

Yup, that sounds super reasonable. I don't think any of the things I suggested are actually better than what you had, but they all seemed to be at a reasonably similar power-level. That probably means they're the worst cards in the deck, which is already kind of obvious-Telling Time is no Ponder, Brainstorm, or Bolt.

[Esper3k]

I only have five shuffle effects.

6 with Ponder!

The experience that I've had with the format so far is that:

1) Barring combo decks, it's not super fast so you get a lot of time to take advantage of the constant card selection that Top gives you.
2) Because it's a format of 1-ofs, getting to control what you draw is even more important to gain as much consistency as possible.



Ajani is maybe kind of mediocre, but I could see both Dack and Jace being good in this deck. Dack has the better plus mode, and stealing equipment is groovy, though Jace is a pretty consistent card advantage engine. Also, I have a Jace but not a Dack, and Dack is still $20ish, so...

I actually think Ajani is one of the stronger Planeswalkers available in the TL format (only 7 currently legal). I think since you're on the tempo plan, giving your guys evasion + double strike or boosting them might be good?

I like Dack more than Jace for you, especially if you're playing the flashback spells. Swords are a pretty popular part of this format as well so Dack's steal equipment ability is actually relevant. With little Jace, I'm just not a fan of giving my opponent cards.



This comes up quite often and I'm not sure why - is my experience with this card just different than every other person alive? Geist is three mana for a four damage burn spell with the additional text, "Your opponent must block with a 2/x or better." I started out with the guy in my list and that was literally all he ever was. Sometimes he wasn't even a burn spell because my opponent had cast Lingering Souls or had Thopter Foundry going and Geist was just a three mana do-nothing. Is the argument that I should run Geist because he's good in the abstract and that I should then run equipment and more removal to make Geist good in context? But I think if you're doing all this stuff to make Geist good you should just build Geist, The Deck, since loosing red is well worth having guaranteed access to your build-around.

Sorry if that came off a bit rant-y, I didn't intend it aggressively or anything. It's just that the first comment people have is literally always, "Where's Geist?" and then they're confused when I say he's not good.

Don't worry, I didn't take it that way. I was just curious about it is all. If your opponent has Lingering Souls / Thopter Foundry going, that negates most of your other guys anyways, right? It just feels to me that if you're in the colors to play Geist, one of the boogeymen of the format, you might as well play it?

[Aggro_zombies]

I guess the one thing about Top I discounted is that I can always use it to draw a card EoT and then recast it on my turn to trigger prowess and Shu Yun's ability. Thinking about it that way, it may be worth testing. It also digs deep for Jeskai Ascendancy, a card that has been an enormous beating every single time I've resolved it.

The thing about Jace is you minus, minus, plus him, or just minus three times for three extra cards. He's probably worse than Monastery Siege if that's what you're doing with him, though, since Siege also does very well against decks with a lot of targeted one-for-ones.

RE: Geist: I brought up Souls/Foundry interaction because that allows them to chump the angel, completely invalidating Geist. In a lot of cases, Geist is just a Flames of the Blood Hand that forces them to block, but he's also very blockable. Sometimes I can get the main body to trade with whatever it's blocking if I cast a spell and grant double strike, but it's unusual for Geist to just outright survive a combat step without pants. I guess I could run Mom? She's good against removal spells as well, generally, but I don't know what I would cut for her.

I'm also considering cutting Wasteland from the main. There's three lands that naturally tap for colorless in the build right now, and there's been a number of games where that's come back to bite me. Wasteland is probably worse than either filter land since the deck is color-intensive and I haven't found myself particularly hurting for a Stone Rain, so I may just switch it to Mana Confluence or something.

[Davran]

I guess the one thing about Top I discounted is that I can always use it to draw a card EoT and then recast it on my turn to trigger prowess and Shu Yun's ability. Thinking about it that way, it may be worth testing. It also digs deep for Jeskai Ascendancy, a card that has been an enormous beating every single time I've resolved it.

I've been playing a list that's quite similar to yours and I honestly never considered Top as a means to trigger prowess and/or Shu Yun. I'm wondering if it's just better than Desperate Ravings for that reason?


I'm also considering cutting Wasteland from the main. There's three lands that naturally tap for colorless in the build right now, and there's been a number of games where that's come back to bite me. Wasteland is probably worse than either filter land since the deck is color-intensive and I haven't found myself particularly hurting for a Stone Rain, so I may just switch it to Mana Confluence or something.

I haven't found Wasteland to be particularly useful either. Maybe it's just my meta, but the combination of the cheap spells that make up the format and a fair number of basic lands has been making it difficult to keep someone off of a color or get rid of some problem land. Maybe it's just better to drop Wasteland and stick a Molten Rain or something in the board for the odd Tabernacle (which is a beating BTW), Glacial Chasm or Boseiju that we might want to deal with?

[Aggro_zombies]

I'd want Wasteland for: Tabernacle, Maze of Ith, Gaea's Gradle, Grove of the Burnwillows (if they have P. Fire), Nephalia Drownyard (out of Esper), and Academy Ruins. I haven't seen Maze yet, and the other lands tend to cluster in certain decks - Esper and WU Control, mostly. So yeah, Wasteland could be a sideboard option, but I feel like there are better anti-control options.

It's worth noting that Suppression Field also (sort of) answers Maze, Drownyard, and Ruins. Tabernacle is not hard to play around with Brimaz, Nemesis, and Shu Yun.

EDIT: Has anyone tried Soulfire Grand Master? It seems interesting with all the one-mana spells the deck runs...

[Sturtzilla]

EDIT: Has anyone tried Soulfire Grand Master? It seems interesting with all the one-mana spells the deck runs...

Admittedly I have not finished my list and have not begun to play test my configuration, but I think Soulfire Grand Master will turn out to be mediocre. I would guess that it will turn out to be a 2/2 with Lifelink for :1::w:. I guess there may be infrequent cases wherein you get to live the dream of paying 5 to effectively cast a 1 CMC spell and have it returned to your hand. Four additional mana for this effect seems a bit steep to me. I could be wrong. I will say that it warrants testing (especially if you are playing a burn heavy build) but is probably a bit win-more or Magical-Christmas-Land-y.

EDIT: Getting closer to finishing my build. Promo foil Shu Yun, foil Ravnica Lightning Helix, foil Distortion Strike, judge foil Command Tower, and foil Seeker of the Way all arrive today. I think I am only a few cards off at this point. I will probably look to pick up the last odds and ends I need this weekend while working the GP in Cleveland.

[Unassigned]

EDIT: I have a foil addiction

Fixed that for ya, Ben. :-D

BTW, bring TL the next time you come up on Tuesdays. A lot of us jam TL between Legacy rounds.

[Sturtzilla]

Will do. Your edit is spot on. I am only 5 cards off of my maindeck at this point and may just buy them tonight (the roommate and I have been drafting). The funny part is that 4 of the 5 are lands and not duals. I should be able to start posting some actual testing results here soon.

[mrjumbo03]

Any updates on the list?

[Aggro_zombies]

Any updates on the list?
Oh, no. I stopped playing Tiny Leaders once I realized there wasn't much point to playing the format unless you were on Esper combo/control, Ezuri, or GoST.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Oh, no. I stopped playing Tiny Leaders once I realized there wasn't much point to playing the format unless you were on Esper combo/control, Ezuri, or GoST.
Can you expand upon that? TL sounded interesting, but not enough to convince me to participate. Why are those decks so oppressive? Which cards/combos were dominant?

[Aggro_zombies]

Can you expand upon that? TL sounded interesting, but not enough to convince me to participate. Why are those decks so oppressive? Which cards/combos were dominant?
Those three are probably the top three decks in the format. In order, I'd rank them Esper, Geist, and Ezuri. Everything else in the format is weak against at least one of these, or weak against one or more of the top Tier II decks.

Esper: Both Merieke and Sydri are good, though MRB is the better of the two. The deck can be built to have robust board control, it can sideboard into robust stack control, and it has two powerful combos in Thopter-Sword and Doomsday into Lab Man. If you build it with MRB as the general you can steal their best creature and win that way. Geist just straight-up never beats this deck and Ezuri can only beat it if it skimps on sideboard hate.

GoST: It's very difficult to interact with Geist the creature directly, and only some colors can do it - notably, white and black. This deck runs very few creatures but can run a bunch of counterspells, draw, removal, and other ways to force GoST through, and can be built either as tempo or control. You generally lose to Esper because they can interact with your general easily and combo you out, and you can beat or lose to Ezuri depending on each deck's sideboard. You beat most other decks in the format by virtue of having an non-interactive general and countermagic.

Ezuri: This is just a Legacy Elfball deck where your general is your Craterhoof. Notably, Ezuri himself gives you protection from damage-based sweepers, so non-black decks will have trouble dealing with all the bodies you can put out. You have the option to play explosively and race aggro decks if you want - they generally can't out-damage an active Ezuri - or you can play conservatively and have one explosive combo turn. The latter approach shields you from mass removal but the cost is that other decks can grind you out. Notably, an Esper deck that can deal with Ezuri directly can punish you for patient play by comboing you out with Lab Man and punish you for reckless play with sweepers like Black Sun's Zenith, Perish, and Engineered Plague. I don't know if this format got rid of tuck since I stopped following it before the rules change in normal EDH, but if it hasn't, getting Ezuri tucked hurts because you really need him to win against most opponents.

Most other decks in the format I've seen are either worse versions of one of these decks or they're just cold to one or more of these decks. Shu Yun, for example, is just a worse Geist, since they both want to beat down with their generals while lightly controlling the stack and the board, but the extra color isn't worth having to do more to protect Shu Yun himself from interaction (plus, Shu Yun is much more mana-intensive). You still lose to Esper, you can still only kinda-sorta beat Ezuri, but you also don't auto-beat a lot of the other decks in the format the rapidly lose to a Geist with a Sword of X and Y equipped, or an aura that makes him unblockable. I could just run Geist in Shu Yun, but I can't guarantee seeing him every game on turn three like I could if Geist was just the general.

More generals could help, I guess, but the format is far Spike-ier than what I want out of EDH. I like formats where I can pursue pet decks and cool things and not get overly punished for it, but this format is definitely not that.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Thank you. :smile:


The format is far Spike-ier than what I want out of EDH. I like formats where I can pursue pet decks and cool things and not get overly punished for it, but this format is definitely not that.
I figured TL wasn't eating into the traditional EDH/Commander space, but was competing directly with French/1v1 EDH.

Do you believe the format can be salvaged?
Would bannings from the creators fix the problems or would it just create new dominating top tier TLs?
Would the format be more fun as a multi-player game? Or does that defeat the purpose?

[Aggro_zombies]

I think it's the attitude about the format.

The creators are pretty clear that this is meant to be a competitive format, which just doesn't jive with being a fun, screw-around format. When you show up with your EDH deck minus all the 4cmc+ cards, you're bound to get crushed by the guys showing up with Tier I singleton Legacy decks who want to play "serious Commander." I honestly don't know how they could fix that. More generals just means that something else would end up being the best deck, and that the tiers may get shuffled around, but they'll still exist and you'll still get punished for not bringing the best deck you can. More bans, or different bans, will have the same effect. Not treating the format as a competitive format would help, but then why play it over regular EDH? It has a more restrictive card pool, less diversity of commanders, and some strategies (such as combo) are very dominant.

I think the format was interesting as a though experiment, and as an alternative to French 1v1 as side event fodder I think it's generally better because it's so obvious that a normal EDH deck won't be allowed (unlike in French, where normal EDH players can sometimes forget that things like Sol Ring are banned and Prime Time not banned). It might be cool for WotC to do a round of precons aimed at the format. Past that, meh.

[Davran]

I think it's the attitude about the format.

The creators are pretty clear that this is meant to be a competitive format, which just doesn't jive with being a fun, screw-around format. When you show up with your EDH deck minus all the 4cmc+ cards, you're bound to get crushed by the guys showing up with Tier I singleton Legacy decks who want to play "serious Commander." I honestly don't know how they could fix that. More generals just means that something else would end up being the best deck, and that the tiers may get shuffled around, but they'll still exist and you'll still get punished for not bringing the best deck you can. More bans, or different bans, will have the same effect. Not treating the format as a competitive format would help, but then why play it over regular EDH? It has a more restrictive card pool, less diversity of commanders, and some strategies (such as combo) are very dominant.

I think the format was interesting as a though experiment, and as an alternative to French 1v1 as side event fodder I think it's generally better because it's so obvious that a normal EDH deck won't be allowed (unlike in French, where normal EDH players can sometimes forget that things like Sol Ring are banned and Prime Time not banned). It might be cool for WotC to do a round of precons aimed at the format. Past that, meh.

This is where I am with this format too. I had a deck that was really similar to this one, and it was fun for a while until things started getting stale. So I built a couple of wacky concept decks that just ended up being rolled over whenever I played them, and the format quickly lost its appeal.