Braids Stax

[owerbart]

Decklist as of December 2015

4 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Ophiomancer

2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Diamond
2 Bottled Cloister
2 Trading Post

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
5 Swamp
1 God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai
4 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

3 Toxic Deluge

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Helm of Obedience
7 Flex Slots


Braids Stax is a prison-oriented deck that aims to lock your opponent out of the game via disruptive artifacts such as Trinisphere and Chalice of The Void and pressure your opponents permanents through Stax effects in order to earn a concession. However, unlike other Stax decks that may recur to a stompy way of killing their opponents, that may get dealt with quickly or simply outclassed, Braids Stax plays a much more quiet role, not going for speed kills but grinding your opponents to the bone.

http://38.media.tumblr.com/8c2d0c1cf9527741b0691dbbda198a48/tumblr_inline_nblz48TgtT1qdnwju.png

Chalice of The Void: Due to the low costs of spells in Legacy, Chalice of The Void set on 1 will blank tons of regular spells. Cantrips like Brainstorm or Ponder are shut down, same as Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, Delver of Secrets, Dark Ritual, and so on. Also because you aren't running any CMC 1 spells you won't suffer a setback at all.

Trinisphere: Trini can really slow down other decks, specially because it will restrict them to one spell a turn for a long time. This, added to the Stax effects, can prove to be a deadly lock. Also it works as a pseudo-Defence Grid because people will need to leave 3 open mana in your turn to interact with your lockpieces.

Stax effects:

http://a2.res.cloudinary.com/csicdn/image/upload/c_pad,h_300,w_300/v1/Images/Products/mtg%20art/Urzas%20Saga/full/Smokestack.jpg

Smokestack: As you can read, Smokestack is a card that can get out of hand extremely quickly, and can clean boards in itself. A few activations can demolish an opponent running low on permanents, remember than ticking it up is optional, and you can stack both of it's abilities, so you can sacrifice 0 permanents, then add a counter. Depending on how your board + recursivity effects, knowing when to tick up or not is key. Also it dodges decay and not a lot of decks can take it out of the board G1.

http://tiendaitaca.com/90027442-large/trenzas-sicaria-de-la-cabala--braids-cabal-minion.jpg

Braids, Cabal Minion: A smokestack that hits for two, and the best card of the deck. Braids, although always staying on one permanent a turn, has the tremendous benefit that it starts to work as soon as you drop her, which means that your opponent won't be as prepared. However, Braids can get hit by Bolt and Swords to Plowshares, so be sure you have a lockpiece (Trini or Chalice) for those answers. Braids herself was a powerful demential Summoner from Otaria, but unlike other dementia summoners, she retained some degree of free-thinking, which helped her climb up in the Cabal hierarchy. Her cards represents what being close to Braids should feel like: Total pain for everybody.

However, you may ask, how are you gonna keep up with sacking permanents. This is where the recursivity engines appear. The main idea of the stax effects is that your opponent will eventually wear down and won't have permanents to sacrifice, while you can keep sacking the same stuff over and over again.

Crucible of Worlds: A staple in every Stax version. Crucible will allow you to bring sacrificed lands back to play, to keep sacrificing them. Also works wonders with Wasteland, as it will allow you to keep wasting a whole manabase.

Ophiomancer: This hidden commander gem works wonders in this deck. Just on its own, it can stop hordes of creatures creating Snake tokens, that mind you, have Deathtouch, which means that Tarmos, Anglers and Gooses won't be as effective. Also because it checks for the Snake in each upkeep, you can sac one to your Stax effect, get it back in your opponent's turn, block whatever they have, then get it back in your turn and sac it to the Stax again! Ophiomancer is also amazing as an attacker, because it provides two bodies hitting for 3.

Trading Post: A mini-planeswalker. You will indeed feel that you are in a market, getting the best bargain in each turn. It can feed your stax effects or make chump-blockers, it can also gain life, can recover itself previously destroyed/countered artifacts to the board, or can just "Recycle" a redundant artifact for a fresh new card!

To conclude the maindeck, a few other disruptive spells:

Toxic Deluge: A great sweeper to clear any board. Great against Pyromancer and Mentor decks.

Ensnaring Bridge: Some decks won't get past this card G1. It works great for you to hide behind it while you let your engine do the nasty work for you. Also gives you a decent matchup vs Eldrazi and Sneak and Show.

Bottled Cloister: An artifact that will net you an extra card each turn. Hiding your hand in your opponent's turn isn't that much of a drawback, since you don't play any instant-speed spells, and it has a beautiful synergy with Ensnaring Bridge, as you will have cards, but however, in your opponents turn, you will hide them away effectively "fooling the bridge" as having 0 cards in hand.

The Manabase:

Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors: Much needed Sol Lands. Will accelerate your mana so you can drop your stuff quicker.

Mox Diamond: Can get you Black mana, and will accelerate you too.

Swamp: Basic colored mana never hurts.

Wasteland: Destroying lands helps to the Stax effects, also great synergy with Crucible.

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth: Can fix your mana pretty smoothly, also make tombs tap without you getting hurt.

Cavern of Souls: Due to the only 2 creatures in your deck being Black and Human, you can bypass countermagic with them.

God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai: An amazing land for this kind of strategies. Even without a recursion engine, it will feed 2 turns of sacking itself, while also generating bodies. If you have a crucible out, you'll get insane value of it.


-------Sideboard / Matchups ------
------------Still in progress---------

[owerbart]

Matchup guide

Death and Taxes: Favorable

Against this creature heavy deck your best approach is to land a continuous stax effect, even if you dont have a way to keep feeding it. Your main concer are both Flickerwisp and Mangara G1, because those are their ways to beat Ensnaring Bridge. Crucible is an all-star to fight a wasteland battle. Set chalice in 1 to stop vial and swords to plowshares. Braids isnt at her best because they are running 3 karakas. If you can keep their lands short and them without vial, the game will probably be yours. At least in my experience the taxing effect of Thalia wont stop you that much unless theiy also pair it with ports and wastes.

Board out the trinispheres and some number of chalices, since on the draw they will look silly if your opponemt has a t1 vial. Board in virtues ruin if you have it, as well as phyrexian revokers


Miracles: Favorable

Chalice is a beat against them, since you will erase quite a lot of their stuff. The matchup changes dramatically depending if they have top or not. Counterbalance shouldnt be that hard to play against, their only true lock is to have jace on top,. The venser lists may have more chances to interact with you, so beware. Smokestack is an all star because they have a very difficult time taking it out of the game. Do not deploy your creatures if ou cant shield them behind a lockpiece. Miracles will probably realize thata they cant outgrind you and will try to land a mentor t3 and race you. If you already had something countered, go for toxic deluge, ALWAYS FOR more than 2, so he cant save it with prowess if not, try to land a trini or a bridge first to test the waters, then go for it. They will usually fetch basics so wastelands arent at its best. Trading post is also fine as you will be able to grind them out. If you already have chalice on one, set the next one in 3 to stop councils judgement.

Board out a trini or two, and some number of crucibles and bridges. Bring revoker, virtues ruin, engineered plague for monks.

Shardless BUG: Even tending to unfavorable

They run DRS which can be a pain for them to breeak through your mana barriers. Chalice isnt at its best since their only one mana spells are brainstorm, drs and a lone ponder. They wont be able to deal with Ophiomancer that well, your best cards in this matchup are bottled cloister,trading post and smokestack and braids, since they dodge decay. Their only counterspells are 4 fows so go for it landing your stuff.if you manage to get a stax effect plus recursivity, start to tick smokey up up up, they will have a worst time rebuilding than you. If they have a hand without drs try to cut them off green. If shardless is big in yomur meta go for a more heavy trading post build. Set chalices on 0 to stop ancestral.

Board out the chalices, you may try to bring the helm package in. Perish is also good so is Guardian.

Storm: Favorable

Keep a hand with either trini or chalice, they wont be able to beat it g1 unless they are going for a burning wish build, in that case try to waste all their red mana, and go for chalice on 2 too. Go for stax without recursivity to nuke the few lands they play and set them further behind. If you smell they are on TES your first chalice on zero to stop lines with Led and chrome mox.

Board out bridges, crucibles, cloisters, trading posts. Helm package in, revokers for LEd, thorn of ametyst. Keep deluges because they will try to for empty the warrens. Beware of rebuild and meltdown g2

Aggro Loam: unfavorable.

Probably this deck worst matchup. The stax effects arent that great and they have tons recursvity too. Your best bet is to try to land a trinisphere and tax them before they can get loam online. Be aware of their manabase and waste properly. Set chalice on 2 to stop loam and p. Fire.

Postboard aim for the helm kill. Out the chalices and trinis. MULLIGAN AGGRESIVELY to leyline.

Delver variants:

RUG: Chalice on 1 cripples them. So does ensnaring bridge. These are your two main tickets to win. Bait their counters with other stuff so you can safely deploy these. They dont run that many permanents so tick up smokestack, they wont be able to rebuild. Expect ancient grudge and loam from their sideboards. Board perish, take out some cloisters.

Grixis: again,chalice cripples them. Because they dont have Tarmo they are a bit slowr, but they play shaman and pyromancer can keep up with smokestack. Once again, bait the counter, then toxic deluge like a mofo. If you are expecting decays, bring guardian beast. Plague spitter and engineedpred are also good.

BUG: they can deal with chalice so thatts a problem. But because they cant go wide like shardless, your best strategy is to overload their decays. Keep the cloisters in to fight hymn to tourach and keep up with throwing spells. Perish is good, so is guardian beast.

Eldrazi: Favorable

G1 bridge will usually be lights out. Also they arent adequated to deal with your stax effects. Wasteland aggresively. Ophiomancer will hold the fort for a long time. If you have chalice, set it in two to stop mimic and jitte. Beware of worldbreaker and endbringer, so try to keep their mana off them. Go for stax without recursivity and it will be game.

Board the chalices and trinis, bring the helm package.

[Nuke is Good]

I can't think of other ways to break symmetry of Smokestack that are black. I never liked Bitterblossom the card kinda just kills you in the end. Especially since you got Ancient Tombs in there. White versions at least had Baneslayer/Timely Reinforcements to offset the life loss. Bottled cloister and ensnaring bridge are great. Also 8 smokestack effects is rather....heavy.

In EDH, I miss using Braids. I'm back to creating rage with Jhoira.

[Michael Keller]

Cavern of Souls is quite good with Nether Void, too.

[Nuke is Good]

Cavern of Souls is quite good with Nether Void, too.

This is a good idea for my Demon Stompy deck. Too bad it's an MTGO only thing.

[owerbart]

I can't think of other ways to break symmetry of Smokestack that are black. I never liked Bitterblossom the card kinda just kills you in the end. Especially since you got Ancient Tombs in there. White versions at least had Baneslayer/Timely Reinforcements to offset the life loss. Bottled cloister and ensnaring bridge are great. Also 8 smokestack effects is rather....heavy.

In EDH, I miss using Braids. I'm back to creating rage with Jhoira.

I'm ok with cutting the bitterblossoms for Crucible of Worlds, the problem is finding another wincon.

What about

-3 Bitterblossom
+3 Crucible of Worlds
-2 Nether Void
+2 Tombstalker

[Zirath]

You may want to look into Ophiomancer.

[owerbart]

You may want to look into Ophiomancer (http://magiccards.info/query?q=ophiomancer).

Nice!

To be honest I didn't even know that card existed. Since it's 3cc it's also nice for Trinisphere.

[Michael Keller]

Plague Spitter is also very good in this deck if you don't run Bitterblossom.

[Zupponn]

Bloodghast? Nether Spirit?

[owerbart]

Whelp, I was going to say that U/R Delver was a very tough matchup because of Treasure Cruise and their continuous card advantage eventually pushing out of my lock, but now that thing is less of a concern. Played some games last night in cockatrice, I went 2-1 vs Explorer Pod (once you stabilize, it's over), 2-1 vs BUG Delver (4 mana cost stuff like smokestack, Braids and Cloister hurt them, also wastelanding the so often nonbasic manabase) , 0-2 vs Goblins (t1 Lackey it's quite hard to respond), 2-0 vs Jund Depths, 1-2 vs the same Jund Depths again, and lost 1-2 to RUG Delver.

Losing games against unanswered Lackeys and early-flipped delvers made me realize we need Toxic Deluge in this deck.


Bloodghast? Nether Spirit?

Bloodghast costs is too mana intensive sometimes, and it need Crucible of Worlds or constant land feeding to keep it online, also he can't block which can be crucial at times where you really need to stabilize. Nether Spirit doesn't work here as well as in Jund Depths because you are already packing Braids too, so just one copy of Braids in the bin means Nether Spirit is out forever, since we don't have that many graveyard manipulation.

@Zirath Saying that Ophiomancer worked FANTASTIC is an understatement. The sinergy it has with Braids and Smokestack is insane, and because the little Snake has Deathtouch, it helps stabilizing against Goyfs, Mongoose, Kird Ape and Monastery Swiftspear, since if they trade for the Snake, you will get a fresh one to sac in your upkeep. Also being 2B means you don't need that much of black mana.

I've thought about cutting some of the stax effects but an early Braids can eat unprepared boards on her own. An unanswered T1 Peat Bog into T2 Braids into a T3 Crucible or Ophiomancer may give such an advantage that once the opponent gets free there's new lockpieces in the board. The card is really really nice.

[thefreakaccident]

This isn't really the same deck, but it has a very similar concept.

lands//23
4 marsh flats
4 scrubland
4 wasteland
3 karakas
3 cavern of souls
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth

spells//13
4 relic of progenitus
3 zealous persecution
4 aether vial
1 batterskull
1 umezawa's jitte

creatures//24
4 braids, cabal minion
4 stoneforge mystic
4 deathrite shaman
4 mangara of corondor
4 thalia, guardian of thraben
4 mother of runes

sideboard//
2 grafdigger's cage
2 surgical extraction
1 null rod
4 duress
3 phyrexian revoker
1 preacher
2 sundering growth

The lockpieces have a decent chance of going uncountered. It probably also wants flickerwisp. Haven't cut relics yet, I was running them in a lot of mainboards when treasure cruise was around, dunno if I wanna get rid of em.

[owerbart]

This isn't really the same deck, but it has a very similar concept.

lands//23
4 marsh flats
4 scrubland
4 wasteland
3 karakas
3 cavern of souls
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth

spells//13
4 relic of progenitus
3 zealous persecution
4 aether vial
1 batterskull
1 umezawa's jitte

creatures//24
4 braids, cabal minion
4 stoneforge mystic
4 deathrite shaman
4 mangara of corondor
4 thalia, guardian of thraben
4 mother of runes

sideboard//
2 grafdigger's cage
2 surgical extraction
1 null rod
4 duress
3 phyrexian revoker
1 preacher
2 sundering growth

The lockpieces have a decent chance of going uncountered. It probably also wants flickerwisp. Haven't cut relics yet, I was running them in a lot of mainboards when treasure cruise was around, dunno if I wanna get rid of em.

The idea of Thalia + Braids looks nice, specially since Braids is legendary too it will be a target for Karakas. Never thought about the idea of Karakas' her into your hand at end of opponent's turn, so you don't have to sac anything. FLickerwisp also may be good.

Still, it looks a lot like a death and taxes kind of game, much far away from Stax. Might be really interesting tho.

[Bosque]

I love the idea of a D&T-ish creature based stax, but how are you planning on breaking the symmetry of Braids other than Mangara? What about dropping the Relics and/or ZP for Bitterblossom, Ophiomancer, or even Voice of Resurgence?

[owerbart]

For anyone interested here is the current list I've been running.

3x Bottled Cloister
4x Chalice of The Void
3x Crucible of Worlds
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Lotus Petal
4x Mox Diamond
4x Smokestack
4x Trinisphere

4x Braids, Cabal Minion
3x Ophiomancer

1x Nether Void
2x Toxic Deluge

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
8x Swamp
1x Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Peat Bog

[TsumiBand]

I know you're not trying to run a Black D&T variant but isn't Lodestone Golem a natural include for a Braids/Smokestack-based deck? If one doesn't go for the white splash for Thalia or play stuff like Sphere of Resistance, I think that Lodestone still stands out as a card with a decent power-to-mana ratio and a compelling effect for a Stax pile.

Nice catch on Ophiomancer, I also had no idea that card was a card. It doesn't read very well but it clearly would fit right into Braids.dec.

[thefreakaccident]

I know you're not trying to run a Black D&T variant but isn't Lodestone Golem a natural include for a Braids/Smokestack-based deck? If one doesn't go for the white splash for Thalia or play stuff like Sphere of Resistance, I think that Lodestone still stands out as a card with a decent power-to-mana ratio and a compelling effect for a Stax pile.

Nice catch on Ophiomancer, I also had no idea that card was a card. It doesn't read very well but it clearly would fit right into Braids.dec.

This is a common misconception. Lodestone golem is actually unplayable beyond maybe a 1 of. You want all of your cost modifiers to have low manacosts, so that you can screw with the opponent's spells during the opening turns. This is because you want to follow up cost modifiers with manadenial to keep them relevant. If you simply try to add cost modifiers without following it up with any form of mana-denial, they can draw out of it with cantrips and lands naturally.

I moved thorn of amethyst back into the mainboard of my brew for tests, it and thalia seem to do a good job+mana denial.

[owerbart]

I know you're not trying to run a Black D&T variant but isn't Lodestone Golem a natural include for a Braids/Smokestack-based deck? If one doesn't go for the white splash for Thalia or play stuff like Sphere of Resistance, I think that Lodestone still stands out as a card with a decent power-to-mana ratio and a compelling effect for a Stax pile.

Nice catch on Ophiomancer, I also had no idea that card was a card. It doesn't read very well but it clearly would fit right into Braids.dec.

Both Lodestome Golem and Sphere of Resistance were cards that I would've loved to find any space for, but since you are also playing 10 colored spells, both of them kind of clunk you a little bit, while Trinisphere does not.

I played yesterday against Miracles, RUG Delver, Death and Taxes, and Reanimator. I'm still not sure on the sideboard, so I decided to go with 4 Leyline of the Void, 4 Helm of Obedience, 4 Pithing Needle, 3 Mindbreak Trap.

Miracles:

G1: He drops top T1, and I go T1 Chalice at 1 crippling his card draw and miracle engine, since Brainstorm and Ponder are no longer online. He drops a T2 Counterbalance, which is met by a T2 Ophiomancer. Since he fetched for his duals, I start to Hit him with ophiomancer while cashing my wastelands for his duals. Eventually I manage to jam a Nether Void which I didn't realize works great against Miracles. He supremes verdict through nether void (goddamn uncounterable) and I end up puting a crucible, while he's stuck in 4 lands unable to cast anything. His counterbalance+top always keep jace in the top so my Braids and Smokestack are sealed out of the game. Eventually I manage to put a Trinisphere and Wastelanding my own Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, to bring a spirit token and seal the deal.

G2: He keeps a lowland hand, he goes Volcanic into top, and I drop a Peat Bog. He tops in his upkeep, drops a tundra and passes. I go Peat Bog-> Lotus Petal-> Trinisphere which enters the battlefield. Then I wasteland his volcanic, and he's stuck with one land while I get a Smokestack T4.

RUG Delver:

G1: This game he doesn't drop single creature, and pretty much everything he does is counter, counter, and counter everything I have, while we also exchange wastelands. Eventually I manage to grind him out of countermagic in turn like 7 and I drop a Trinisphere while he only has two lands. by the moment he finds a third one my board is already developed and he scoops.

G2: I board the 4 Leyline of the Void to combat Tarmogoyfs and Mongoose. I board out a Crucible, the Nether Void, a Bottled Cloister and a Smokestack. (Probably this is a dumb idea, I'm still not sure in which cards should I have in sideboard nor how to proper exchange pieces)

I mull to 6 drop a T1 Leyline but no T1 lockpiece... which is met by T1 and T2 Kird Ape. My wastelands keep kird apes forestless while I jam a trinisphere, but eventually his countermagic eats my toxic deluge and I'm unable to get rid of the Kird Apes in time while also taking damage from my tombs.

G3: I mulligan to 6 again, I keep 4 land, petal and trinisphere. He FoWs my T1 trinisphere and from there I draw land the next two turns which keeps him without any real pressure. When I'm finally able to get a lockpiece, Kird Apes are presenting lethal.


Death and Taxes:

G1: I really thought that this was a really easy matchup, but then I realize that a quick vial or cavern of souls can bypass some of my hate. He drops T1 vial, I go T1 Chalice but a Cavern of souls and puts thalia and vial drops a Mom in my endstep. He swings while I put a trinisphere. He puts me to ten but at that time I manage to defend myself with bottled cloister + ensnaring bridge. By the time he gets a flickerwisp, his board is already dead from a previous Toxic Deluge.

G2: He opens with Vial, I have a good hand but no early pressure. He drops a mom from the vial, and starts to port my land, which sends me down a little bit. At some point I'm pretty sure I misplayed it since I should've waste the port that was driving me crazy, instead of his cavern of souls. He has two flickerwisps to swing through my Ensnaring Bridge with Batterskull two times, and I'm pretty much done.

G3: I drop a T1 peat bog which meets a T1 Vial. I drop a T2 Braids which goes unanswered, and she eats his board very very quickly. ( I had to play and sac lands for two turns before finding an ophiomancer to feed Braids with, tho)

Reanimator:

G1: T1 Chalice, sends him waaay too much behind. He spends his turns countering my stuff without being able to put any monster in his yard. Eventually I manage to jam a Braids which sends him even more behind.

G2: He mulls to five, and plays ponder T1, which is met by my turn 1 Trinisphere. T2 he can't do anything more but to pass, and from then a quick smokestack + ophiomancer seals the deal.

I'm really, really, really liking this deck. You guys who've suggested cavern of souls through Nether Void are right, as it also makes counterbalance look really silly. Against RUG I'm still optimistic about the matchup, but you need to keep the threat of a lockpiece every-single-time. Death and Taxes made me also think about running some Dread of Nights in the sideboard, also Brainstorming quickly, maybe the new Pyromancer + Delver + Monastery Swiftspear variants can be fought nicely with an Engineering Plague naming Human.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Bane of the Living! I vouche for this card, it will straight up win games (goblins, elves, delver?) on its own. T1 Chalice, T2 morph, go. Haven't played played Braids Stax in a phew years but I remember having great results with that creature in particular and players just scooping after it flipped in several tourneys.

[ReAnimator]

Coercive Portal
Is an upgrade to Bottled Cloister unless you expect discard effects to make a come back in the format.

[Ruckusmh]

Coercive Portal
Is an upgrade to Bottled Cloister unless you expect discard effects to make a come back in the format.

I believe Cloister was largely there to fuel Ensnaring Bridge.

[ReAnimator]

I believe Cloister was largely there to fuel Ensnaring Bridge.

Oh that makes sense. I'm an idiot.

[Daize]

Wondering: Besides Toxic Deluge, how do you deal with Young Pyromancer / Monastery Mentor fueled decks?

Also, how about instead of lotus petal, Chains of Mephistopheles? :p

[owerbart]

Coercive Portal
Is an upgrade to Bottled Cloister unless you expect discard effects to make a come back in the format.

As said by other people Bottled Cloister is there because of the nice sinergy with Ensnaring Bridge (most decks don't have a good way to deal with Bridge G1), and also I found out that most of the time, if they try to break the cloister, the already established locks eventually eat their boards.


@Mystical_Jackass
Wow, never thought about Bane of the Living. I know it can act as an amazing boardsweeper but it also takes two turns to activate and after some games it could become like telegraphed (also could kill your Ophiomancer and Braids). Still I'm gonna give it a try

@Daize I'm gonna be honest but I haven't played against many Monastery Mentor decks. But I've played against young pyromancer decks and a Trinisphere cripples them badly, because both token makers become much more unnefective. Also UWR decks that should take the Monastery Mentor way usually are very weak to Wasteland+Crucible. After playing some games against death and taxes I realized that the match isn't as good as I thought (I mean, you still have the advantage, but not the colossal advantage I thought) so I was thinking about putting some copies of Dread Of Night in my sideboard, which also functions against Monastery Mentor tokens. I guess we still need to see if Monastery Mentor ends up shaping the meta as much as Pyromancer did. You have more options, like jamming a Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale or more Toxic Deluges. I'm also thinking that @Michael Keller's Plague Spitter idea is quite good, since it's a constant token sweeper, although I'm not so sure how the lifeloss from tombs + plague spitter would fare. But yeah, Plague Spitter definitely spits over all the token strategies, and if Sacked to Braids or Smokestack it also works as a pseudo Pyroclasm.

[owerbart]

I'm also thinking that against decks that you aren't expecting a ton of graveyard hate (only crucible relies on the graveyard) , you can easily have a SB Radiant Fountain that with Stax effects + Crucible will net you some life gain, making Plague Spitter that more devastating, as it also creates a new "Broken Asymetry" your opponent has to find a solution to.

[Daize]

Plague Spitter sounds pretty amazing, since against these decks you can attack with it aggressively if you need to, do they block it it's a pyroclasm as well. Maybe considering Trinispheres, instead of Dread of Night in the SB?

Also yes, Radiant Fountain instead of the Gods' thing

[Technicolor Mage]

Deck looks fun to play. Where is the sideboard? Perhaps I missed it, but I just ported over your latest decklist and I didn't see it there

[owerbart]

Plague Spitter sounds pretty amazing, since against these decks you can attack with it aggressively if you need to, do they block it it's a pyroclasm as well. Maybe considering Trinispheres, instead of Dread of Night in the SB?

Also yes, Radiant Fountain instead of the Gods' thing

I wouldnt touch the trinis. In fact I do believe that an early trini is the best disruption since it shuts down countermagic and you can jam your pieces quote comfortably. 4 maindeck is a must

I wouldnt cut the gods eye from the MB, since its a nice way to get a 2 for one from stack effects if you arent able to get a continuous feeding yet. You can also wasteland your own gods eye if you have a crucible, which gets you a slow but continuously growing army of tokens that can make counterbalance look silly and plays really smoothly through all of your lockpieces, and is an uncounterable way to get pressure going. Plague spitter may be more of a sideboard choice, since it functuions strictly against death taxes and token based strategies, but wont kill shaman, nor taylor swiftspear, and against decks like reanimator or cloudpost it may not be the brightest star. Still I believe the card is amazing and will be staple card in our sideboards and maybe in the main if you can guess your meta. Radiant Fountain is also a nice card in the sideboard and i would bring it along the plague spitters against uwr and ur delver.

@technicolor mage my first run with that list, i didn't know exactly what i was going to face, so the idea are 4 pithing needles (shuts vial, shaman, sneak attack, top, misty, jitte, kuldotha), 4 leyline of the void (this was before treasure cruise getting banned, also shrinks goyf, mongeeseand shaman, as well as reanimator and loam), 3 mindbreak trap (belcher, maybe storm if you put chalice at 1, spanish inquisition) and 4 helm of obedience to combo with leyline.

A more realistic sideboard could be:

3 plague spitter
2 radiant fountain
2 ensnaring bridge (2 maindeck, two in the side)
3 pithing needle
4 leyline of the void
1 helm of obedience


I'm on the beach right now so i wont be able to test plaguespitter and MD Cavern of souls till next week. But i'm really looking forward to see plaguespitter devouering X/1 creatures

[Daize]

`Nah I was just saying they work well with Trinis, since they already cost 3.

Honestly, I find myself with an empty hand pretty soon, and Bottled Cloister is pretty expensive... I'd drop them, keep the Bridges maybe.

They don't really have synergy with Braids, nor Ophiomancer though :(.


Well, sideboard ideas?
Engineered Plague
Dismember (can be explosively cheap, but avoids CotV)
Phyrexian Revoker

[owerbart]

`Nah I was just saying they work well with Trinis, since they already cost 3.

Honestly, I find myself with an empty hand pretty soon, and Bottled Cloister is pretty expensive... I'd drop them, keep the Bridges maybe.

They don't really have synergy with Braids, nor Ophiomancer though :(.


Well, sideboard ideas?
Engineered Plague
Dismember (can be explosively cheap, but avoids CotV)
Phyrexian Revoker

Cloister has worked wonders for me, specially because it takes care of one of the most tipycal problems prison decks have, which is to run out of gas. It gives you card advantage while also hiding that toxic deluge or plague sputter you've been hiding.

I prefer needle over revoker, because its easier to cast t1. But revoker gives you a swinging body in itself, so both have their merits.

[owerbart]

For anyone still interested, I switched 4 swamps with 4 Cavern of Souls, since both Ophiomancer and Braids are human, and the colateral damage of having only 7 black mana source (without counting moxes and petals) doesn't hurt a lot since you only need them to cast Nether Void and Toxic Deluge.

[TraxDaMax]

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15811&iddeck=117765

Thought that might help.

[owerbart]

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15811&iddeck=117765

Thought that might help.

Thanks! I already saw that japanese list. Nice to know someone else also liked the idea of the deck :)
I'm not sure about bitterblossom still. I could see how they work to stop big creatures early in the game, but I don't like how they work with Toxic Deluge + Ancient Tombs.

Still I like that list a lot.

[TraxDaMax]

Jitte seems to be the glue of that deck. It serves as a lockpiece/clock. And it makes some matchups almost impossible to lose.

[Daize]

58 cards, what would the last two be?

[phonics]

What about Contamination as another lock? There are already a bunch of token generators, it costs 3.

[TLK]

I've been playing Angel Prison for a bit, but I came across this thread and the list posted in the link above looks awesome. Has anyone actually tested that list? Contamination seems like a nice black Blood Moon with Bitterblossom in play.

[TraxDaMax]

58 cards, what would the last two be?
I didn't notice that one. Hmm, maybe it's 3 lili's? 1 of lili seems kind of weird.
Possibly it is just Smokestack which would let the deck live up to it's name :)

Edit: nm 2 lili in the board, so I'm going with Smokestack.

Re-edit: on second thought, it may be a black card, because there don't seem to be a whole lot to support Chrome Mox.
Could be anything really. Enginereed Plague, Sinkhole, Smallpox, Damnation, Contamination...

[Blastoderm]

I didn't notice that one. Hmm, maybe it's 3 lili's? 1 of lili seems kind of weird.
Possibly it is just Smokestack which would let the deck live up to it's name :)

Edit: nm 2 lili in the board, so I'm going with Smokestack.

Re-edit: on second thought, it may be a black card, because there don't seem to be a whole lot to support Chrome Mox.
Could be anything really. Enginereed Plague, Sinkhole, Smallpox, Damnation, Contamination...

A quick google of the guys name + braids and I found it. http://mtglive.net/deckdb/viewer.php?id=1362&ckattempt=1#

Ob nixilis lol!

[TraxDaMax]

Wow haha that isn't what I'd expect. It is a clock though.

[TLK]

Has anyone played with Ob Nixilis or tested this list? I sleeved it up with Contamination instead of Ob Nix. Felt threat light.

[TraxDaMax]

All I've done is do the sample hand thing. And that didn't feel too impressive for me. I too had the feeling the deck was threat light. I don't like that Contamination wants you to have a Bitterblossom or the snake dude. The deck has no manipulation to find those if you need them.

[TLK]

That's kind of what I thought, too. I like the basic structure of the deck, as the Angel Prison list I was running was very successful with the same core lock pieces. I want to try to make this work. Perhaps something like Tombstalker in the Ob Nix slot as a finisher?

[TraxDaMax]

Tombstalker might be better but I'm doubting how we will get enough cards in the graveyard without our opponent helping us. There might be better options, though Ob Nix doesn't seem the worst. It brings a 5/5 flyer and after 1 tick up another one. Lifeloss is relevant but you can always opt to tick him up. If your opponent has no permanents he won't be winning fast anyway ;)

[TLK]

That's true. I figured that we run a fair amount of fetches/discard spells to aid in casting Tombstalker, but I have yet to test it. I really want to try to find a solid finisher for this deck...something similar to Baneslayer in Angel Prison.

[Daize]

Actually, Ob Nix doesn't seem too bad... it does give the opponent two cards to deal with, and pumps out an immediate blocker...

[TLK]

Would Ob Nix Unshackled or the Fallen be worth looking into as well?

[Quizzlemanizzle]

A mono black Braids POX/Staxx deck was my little pet deck for years.

However I did not play so many artifacts.

No mox diamond - don't see the point of this over Dark Ritual.
and chalice/trini only in the sideboard. Only 1 smokestack
no bridges or cloisters - they don't fit my gameplan which is that my opponent won't have a board presence so I don't need pillowfort card. If he has a creature make him sac it or force him to keep it back since I play more creatures myself instead of just 4 Braids.

Dark Ritual for fast Braids(4), Liliana(4), Crucible(2) or Phyrexian Obliterator(2).

Bloodghast(4)/Bitterblossom(2) to fuel my sacrifices.
Gatekeeper of Malakir for more card advantage.
Mishra's Factories(4).
Sinkhole(4), Wasteland(4), Smallpox(1-2)
Thoughtseize and later I played Dark Confidants simply to close the game faster.

[TLK]

Has anybody tested a red splash for Rabblemaster and Blood Moon? Rabblemaster is good with Braids and Blood Moon can potentially replace the more fragile Contamination.

Something like this:


4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Liliana of the Veil

2 Toxic Deluge

3 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Ophiomancer
4 Goblin Rabblemaster

2 Bitterblossom
2 Blood Moon

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
4 Swamp

[Sisyphos]

Played around a bit with the Japanese list and slightly modified it. The concept seems to inherit the usual problems of needing a combination of mana, lock piece and clock to function without any form of library manipulation, leading to inconsistency. I'm also prepared to argue that any list of this kind of deck that does not start with 4x Pack Rat is probably just build wrong. It presents a 3-turn-clock on an empty board, is hard to deal with through targeted removal even if you do not have Chalice/Trini and fuels both Braids/Contamination or anything else that requires the sacrifice of creatures/tokens

[TLK]

Played around a bit with the Japanese list and slightly modified it. The concept seems to inherit the usual problems of needing a combination of mana, lock piece and clock to function without any form of library manipulation, leading to inconsistency. I'm also prepared to argue that any list of this kind of deck that does not start with 4x Pack Rat is probably just build wrong. It presents a 3-turn-clock on an empty board, is hard to deal with through targeted removal even if you do not have Chalice/Trini and fuels both Braids/Contamination or anything else that requires the sacrifice of creatures/tokens

Mind posting your list?

[Blastoderm]

I think 4 contamination is necessary.

As the previous poster mentioned you need a clock, mana and threat.

This is the reason why mono red stompy is the most consistent as it has 16 fast mana cards, 16 lock pieces and the rest are threats.

4 Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
8 Sol lands

8 Moons
4 trinisphere
4 chalice of the void

The problem with other colors is that you don't have 8 blood moons (which win the game on their own by the way).

[Sisyphos]

Mind posting your list?

No I don't, but please keep in mind when considering the list, that it is in no way shape or form meant as a finished list that is ready to be taken to a big tournament. I put it together to playtest a couple of games against different decks to see how and if the concept could work and taking into considerations the changes that came to mind when seeing the original Japanese list. For example the split Mox Diamond/Chrome Mox is obviously not meant to be final, but I just wanted to see which drawback came up as being detrimental more often. Mox Diamond appears to be easier to use because you do not really want to pitch the black cards, but I did not get enough games in to come to a conclusion. Also no sideboard as the mainboard was not even done being finalized.

3 Braids, Cabal Minion
3 Ophiomancer
4 Bitterblossom
4 Pack Rat
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Mox Diamond
2 Chrome Mox
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 City of Traitors
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Swamp
5 black fetchies


As for Contamination:
I can see its appeal and it could be useful. If I continue working on the deck, I will try them out at some point. But the big difference between Blood Moons and Contamination is that the first is not dependent on other cards. 4 of the 8 Moon effects even double as a clock. Contamination on the other hand is only useful in conjunction with another specific card (and then you still need a third card to actually have a clock). Sure, my list runs 10 cards that can fuel Braids or Contamination, but I have my doubts that the simple equation 16 lock pieces = more consistency is true in this case. For example in Dragon Stompy an opening hand with three mana on the first turn and two Bloon Moons is fine. In a black deck an opening hand of three mana on the first turn and two Contaminations is garbage as you still need to draw a token producer and even if you do, the Contamination can only be played the turn after you play that and only if your token producer survives. Therefor as Contamination is only effectice in conjunction with another specific card, adding 4 Contaminations is not the same when talking about consistency as adding four cards that can disrupt on their own. If you play a deck without manipulation, you want your cards to work on their own. Adding additional two card combos can in a certain way even be an increase in inconsistency if this makes sense.

I'm not very good at math, so I have no idea how the exact probabilites would turn out. But I would guess that if you calculate the percentage of games you can disrupt your opponent in the first three turns with Contamination in the deck is slightly higher than without, but the difference between the two scenarios will not be as big as between a Red Stompy list with 4 Blood Moons and a Red Stompy list with 4 Blood Moons and 4 Magus of the Moon. And after doing the math, one would have to figure out if the difference is worth cutting the cards you have to remove to fit Contaminations in.

[Blastoderm]

Yes of course, I agree. Contamination is no way equivalent to Blood Moon. I was merely just thinking of a lock piece you could play in mono black... especially since this deck has lots of token generators. Our options are limited.

[Sisyphos]

There are actually a lot of disruptive cards black can play if you are not solely focused on limiting mana. Chains or Nether Void are often mentioned. I'd argue that even Lili represents disruption albeit in a very different way than what you see in Dragon Stompy. On the other hand when you compare this deck to Dragon Stompy, you probably should actually consider the Wastelands as lock pieces and not as lands. One Wasteland will not totally lock out your opponent like Contamination or Blood Moon might, but in conjunction with Braids, Crucible and Trini it can turn from a mild annoyance into a hard lock pretty quickly.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Here is the list I've been messing around with:

4 Ophiomancer
4 Braids, Cabal Minion

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
2 Bottled Cloister

2 Nether Void

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
6 Snow-Covered Swamp

Sideboard

3 Bitterblossom
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Leyline of the Void

After some initial testing, I made these changes:

-2 Nether Void
-1 Trinisphere
-1 Smokestack

+3 Liliana of the Veil
+1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

And in the sideboard:

-1 Liliana of the Veil
+1 Trinisphere

Nether Void under-performed significantly, and unlike Trinisphere is a double-edged sword (it often hurts us nearly as much as our opponent, or in some cases more). The mana-curve was also a little high, and I had some issues dying to dorks while trying to lose my hand to activate Ensnaring Bridge (this was a serious issue in the Death and Taxes matchup considering Vial and their slew of mana denial). Liliana fixes this issue in two ways - by lowering the curve and by shrinking your hand size with her +1. She is also excellent disruption in basically every matchup. I moved a Trinisphere to the board because you don't really need duplicates of that card. The fourth can come back in against Storm and other decks that fold to it. The extra Urborg makes casting Liliana more viable and pads out the land count. Even at 25 I felt the deck was a little land-light, especially considering Mox Diamond. One big plus of playing this deck is that (postboard) the Miracles matchup is insane.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Apologies for the DP, but it's tournament report time. I took 2nd at my local (3-1 record) with this list:

Braids Stax 2.0 (aka 3 Girls 1 Snake)

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
6 Snow-Covered Swamp

4 Ophiomancer
4 Braids, Cabal Minion

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
2 Bottled Cloister

3 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Bitterblossom
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Trinisphere



Round 1 was against BUG Delver. There was really little to see here, my opponent mulliganned and/or stumbled on lands in both games and I was able to lock it up quickly despite losing the die roll. Wasteland and Braids were MVP here.

Round 2 was another BUG Delver, and I lost the die roll again. I had thought my opponent was on Miracles, so I kept a slow hand of Trinisphere, 2x Braids, and 4 lands. I quickly died to his double Delver draw. Game two I mulled to a greedy six with turn one COTV off of City of Traitors. This shuts him off for a while but I only draw one additional land over the next 12 or so turns and eventually die to Goyf beats.

Round three was against Dredge (the one with lands). I finally win a die roll and open with turn one COTV at one, quickly followed up by double Ensnaring Bridge, a Trinisphere, and a Liliana. I sac a couple of Braids to themselves to exile Bridges. My opponent concedes as he has no maindeck answer to E Bridge. Game two I'm on the draw without Leyline, but I keep as my hand has 2x COTV, Trinisphere, Crucible, and lands including Wasteland. He Careful Studies and I respond with COTV at 0 and 1 off of Ancient Tomb. I then Wasteland him three consecutive times and play Trinisphere and Crucible which locked things up.

Round 4 was a nail-biter against Sneaky Show (I won the roll). Game one I mull to 5 which is 4 lands and Chalice. I turn one Chalice at one off of City of Traitors, which shuts off his cantrip-heavy hand. I draw Ensnaring Bridge a couple turns later, and slam it after he plays Sneak Attack. He has no Force and concedes to the Bridge. Game two I'm able to land Bridge and some other things, but am surprised by Omniscience out of the board. My opponent casts a couple of Emrakuls and eventually cantrips into Echoing Truth to bounce my Bridge. Game three I open with turn 1 Ophiomancer which resolves. My opponent cantrips twice (off of Island and Petal) and passes. I play Cavern naming Human, Braids. He sacs his one Island on upkeep and eventually concedes to the Braids lock.

So the deck performed quite a bit better than I expected. I was hoping to play against Miracles as that matchup is extremely favorable, but whatever. I definitely want more answers to Delver in the board, which probably means more copies of Rachet Bomb - I can't really think of a better cheap answer. The Miracles hate in the sideboard is way overboard, so I can probably cut a Bitterblossom and maybe a Chains as well to fit in more Ratchets. I may also cut Toxic Deluge as I haven't boarded it in yet. I found myself boarding Bottled Cloister out a lot since all my opponents were playing very fast decks. I assume it will be much better against slow matches so I'll probably leave it in for now. The creature combo of Ophiomancer + Braids (both uncounterable off of Cavern of Souls) is absolutely insane and is really the best part of the deck.

[bruizar]

I would consider:

+3 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
+1 / +2 Kormus Bell

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

I disagree 4 tabernacles is the correct number

[Kunfuzed]

I am loving this deck. I've played it in 3 local tournaments now, and pretty much gone 50/50 in matches. However, I really think the matches I lost were due more to sequencing mistakes and poor sideboarding strategy rather than the deck itself.

I haven't actually had any good testing against Miracles, BUG Delver, or Show & Tell decks, which I'd need to do before making any real conclusions about the viability of the deck, of course.

The one note I'd have is that against faster, creature-based decks, Ensnaring Bridge really ended up getting stuck in my hand rather than being useful. I lost a game against Goblins with 2 in my hand, and lost a long, grindy game against UR Delver with 3 in my hand. If those had been almost anything else, I could have pulled the win. Once I get some good testing against the higher-tier decks, I think the sideboard will get a makeover, and I might drop 1 or 2 Ensnaring Bridges from the main for either Bottled Cloisters or mainboard creature hate (Toxic Deluge? The Abyss? Batterskull?). Also, depending on how the Tier 1 blue matchups are going, it might be necessary to bring in some Chains of Mephistopheles.

I've actually been underwhelmed with Tabernacle as well, but need more experience with it before dropping it.

My list, for reference:

Maindeck:
4 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Ophiomancer

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Tangle Wire
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond

7 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard:
3 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Toxic Deluce
1 Perish
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Abyssal Persecutor

[Admiral_Arzar]

I am loving this deck. I've played it in 3 local tournaments now, and pretty much gone 50/50 in matches. However, I really think the matches I lost were due more to sequencing mistakes and poor sideboarding strategy rather than the deck itself.

I haven't actually had any good testing against Miracles, BUG Delver, or Show & Tell decks, which I'd need to do before making any real conclusions about the viability of the deck, of course.

The one note I'd have is that against faster, creature-based decks, Ensnaring Bridge really ended up getting stuck in my hand rather than being useful. I lost a game against Goblins with 2 in my hand, and lost a long, grindy game against UR Delver with 3 in my hand. If those had been almost anything else, I could have pulled the win. Once I get some good testing against the higher-tier decks, I think the sideboard will get a makeover, and I might drop 1 or 2 Ensnaring Bridges from the main for either Bottled Cloisters or mainboard creature hate (Toxic Deluge? The Abyss? Batterskull?). Also, depending on how the Tier 1 blue matchups are going, it might be necessary to bring in some Chains of Mephistopheles.

I've actually been underwhelmed with Tabernacle as well, but need more experience with it before dropping it.



The solution (I discovered) to your Ensnaring Bridge problem is to play Liliana of the Veil and Bottled Cloister alongside it. Also, Tangle Wire is actively bad with Bridge as it taps mana sources and slows your ability to play out your hand. In fact, I would argue that Tangle Wire is bad period, and the only reason I can think of to play that card is if my deck had a lot of Welders. Tangle Wire is great in Vintage because Vintage Shops decks vomit out lots of cheap artifacts starting on the first turn. We don't, and we need Mox Diamond mana to help play our expensive spells anyways. Tabernacle is anti-synergistic with our deck because we actually win with creatures (as well as not tapping for mana). I wouldn't play it at all unless your meta is infested with swarm aggro decks, and even then I doubt it's necessary. My advice for your maindeck is:

-4 Tangle Wire
-1 Trinisphere
-1 Smokestack

+1 Crucible of Worlds
+3 Liliana of the Veil
+2 Bottled Cloister

As for the sideboard, cut the Tabernacles and random one-ofs for 2-3 Chains and a playset of Ratchet Bomb (IMO this is the card every Stax sideboard should start with now). I don't much like the Abyss here because it kills our creatures and they are important to our strategy. A couple copies of Deluge in the board is fine if you feel the need for additional sweepers (Massacre is good if there's a lot of DnT and Stoneblade decks also). Bitterblossom is pretty good in slower matchups and also spits out blockers against Delver.

Matchup wise, you should crush Miracles. Pre-board the matchup is a joke, post-board they actually have a few outs so it's not quite as easy, but still pretty favored especially if you run Chains and/or Bitterblossom in the board. BUG Delver is favored if you win the die roll, can be iffy on the draw though. Abrupt Decay is rough, although you have so many targets for it they will likely be overwhelmed anyways (plus it can't target Braids which is very relevant). Show and Tell is an iffy matchup, really depends on whether you have Bridge and how quickly you can lock them out of permanents (I've done it as early as turn 2 before but it can be difficult).

[Kunfuzed]

The solution (I discovered) to your Ensnaring Bridge problem is to play Liliana of the Veil and Bottled Cloister alongside it. Also, Tangle Wire is actively bad with Bridge as it taps mana sources and slows your ability to play out your hand. In fact, I would argue that Tangle Wire is bad period, and the only reason I can think of to play that card is if my deck had a lot of Welders. Tangle Wire is great in Vintage because Vintage Shops decks vomit out lots of cheap artifacts starting on the first turn. We don't, and we need Mox Diamond mana to help play our expensive spells anyways. Tabernacle is anti-synergistic with our deck because we actually win with creatures (as well as not tapping for mana). I wouldn't play it at all unless your meta is infested with swarm aggro decks, and even then I doubt it's necessary. My advice for your maindeck is:

-4 Tangle Wire
-1 Trinisphere
-1 Smokestack

+1 Crucible of Worlds
+3 Liliana of the Veil
+2 Bottled Cloister

As for the sideboard, cut the Tabernacles and random one-ofs for 2-3 Chains and a playset of Ratchet Bomb (IMO this is the card every Stax sideboard should start with now). I don't much like the Abyss here because it kills our creatures and they are important to our strategy. A couple copies of Deluge in the board is fine if you feel the need for additional sweepers (Massacre is good if there's a lot of DnT and Stoneblade decks also). Bitterblossom is pretty good in slower matchups and also spits out blockers against Delver.

Matchup wise, you should crush Miracles. Pre-board the matchup is a joke, post-board they actually have a few outs so it's not quite as easy, but still pretty favored especially if you run Chains and/or Bitterblossom in the board. BUG Delver is favored if you win the die roll, can be iffy on the draw though. Abrupt Decay is rough, although you have so many targets for it they will likely be overwhelmed anyways (plus it can't target Braids which is very relevant). Show and Tell is an iffy matchup, really depends on whether you have Bridge and how quickly you can lock them out of permanents (I've done it as early as turn 2 before but it can be difficult).

I think you're right on the Tangle Wires. They would probably be better in a colorless Stax/MUD variant since you could develop your 12-post manabase while the game is paused for 2 turns, and come out well ahead of your opponent. Dropping at least 2 of those for 2 Cloisters seems right.

Has Liliana ever been tough given the double black requirement since you can't use Caverns like you can for Braids? I might up the Urborg count if I were trying to do that (as it seems you have in your list).

I actually love Abyssal Persecutor against nonwhite Delver as it can't be Spell Pierced, they can't attack through it, and they've probably already Forced/Dazed an earlier lock piece. Would Chains actually be better? At some point, I wonder whether Chains has a place.

Is Ratchet Bomb just a catch-all for problem permanents? Or are you using it specifically for Pyromancer tokens and flipped Delvers? I used to play it in Legacy MUD but it rarely did anything.

A big issue I tend to have is what to sideboard out without ruining the gameplan

RUG Delver: Smokestack (though, maybe Braids since 4x Lightning Bolt > 2x Spell Pierce), Bottled Cloister(?)
BUG Delver: Smokestack/Braids (depending on Disfigure/Liliana), Bottled Cloister(?)
Patriot Delver: 1 or 2x Crucible
Miracles: Ensnaring Bridge, then some combination of Crucible/Ophiomancer?
Shardless BUG: Chalice on the Draw(?) Otherwise, no idea
Stoneblade: No idea. Trinispheres?
Omni-Tell: 4x Ensnaring Bridge, then maybe a Wasteland/Ophiomancer/Smokestack?
Elves: Liliana
Sneak & Show: Not much to side in (unless you're running Revoker for Sneak Attack), so make Smokestacks because they're slow? Bottled Cloister?
Storm: Ensnaring Bridge
Death & Taxes/Maverick: Braids (if they're running Karakas)
Burn: 2x Crucible? Not much comes in.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I think you're right on the Tangle Wires. They would probably be better in a colorless Stax/MUD variant since you could develop your 12-post manabase while the game is paused for 2 turns, and come out well ahead of your opponent. Dropping at least 2 of those for 2 Cloisters seems right.

Has Liliana ever been tough given the double black requirement since you can't use Caverns like you can for Braids? I might up the Urborg count if I were trying to do that (as it seems you have in your list).

I actually love Abyssal Persecutor against nonwhite Delver as it can't be Spell Pierced, they can't attack through it, and they've probably already Forced/Dazed an earlier lock piece. Would Chains actually be better? At some point, I wonder whether Chains has a place.

Is Ratchet Bomb just a catch-all for problem permanents? Or are you using it specifically for Pyromancer tokens and flipped Delvers? I used to play it in Legacy MUD but it rarely did anything.



I upped the Urborg count (as you noticed) and haven't really had issues casting Lili. Persecutor is interesting, although I feel like the role he is playing for you can easily be played by Ratchet Bomb considering it is our most efficient answer to Delver. That card is also a Swiss army knife that allows you to answer all sorts of problematic permanents. Stax slows the game down, so you generally have time to tick up bombs in order to kill Goyfs or TNN for example. Sometimes you just need to get rid of enchantments or even planeswalkers as well and there aren't many better answers in mono-black. Chains isn't really for the Delver matchup, it is for Miracles, Blue Combo, and Ancestral Visions. It doesn't do enough against Delver as they tend to just kill you with dudes.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I played this deck to a first place finish at my weekly local.

4 Ophiomancer
4 Braids, Cabal Minion

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
2 Bottled Cloister

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
6 Snow-Covered Swamp

Sideboard

2 Bitterblossom
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Ratchet Bomb
1 Trinisphere
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Spine of Ish Sah

I beat Storm in a very ugly three (I drew like crap but my opponent made a key play mistake in game one). I got wrecked by mulligans + discard game 2, and then managed to stall an army of 14 goblins with Braids + Ophiomancer game 3. Round 2 I beat Lands in 3. I found it difficult to beat Sphere + multiple Ports postboard but got there eventually. The final round I wrecked RUG Delver in 2 as my opponent drew countermagic-heavy hands that didn't have a lot of early pressure. Ophiomancer is pretty good against Tarmogoyf.

My overall impression of this deck is that it seems really bad while playing it, but it wins anyways despite the mulligans and terrible clunky draws. I'm considering going up to 61 cards to add an additional basic land, as I mulled for lands a ton. The Leylines might actually be cutable for something else as aside of one Lands player there is very little graveyard in my meta.

[owerbart]

Nice to see people still toying around with Braids Stax :) makes me really happy to actually read people piloting this deck and their stories.

My current list is:

4 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Ophiomancer

3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Diamond
3 Bottled Cloister

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Peat Bog
4 Swamp
1 God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai
4 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

3 Toxic Deluge

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Helm of Obedience
7 Flex Slots

Has any of you friends tried peat bog? I know it looks kind of clunky but if it goes unchecked it can lead to degenerate turn twos.
I haven't tested Liliana yet. Bottled Cloister is amazing because sometimes you put a lockpiece but you need to find a Braids or Smokestack for them to start sacking stuff so they are kept locked, also the synergy with Bridge is fantastic.

Two days ago I defeated a board which had a T2 Emrakul + Omniscience + Griselbrand + Elesh Norn + Blood Moon. He SNT for Omniscience and I jammed Ensnaring Bridge, he didn't have an answer mainboard. Then a Trini resolved which crippled his Omni, and from then I started to do land drop after land drop after land drop and then managed to jam a smokestack and a crucible. From then, I had to tick the Smokey to 4, and eventually I grinded his board because he sacked 4 permanents per turn but the asymetry crucible made was devastating. It was awesome to see even so many big monsters and an omniscience dissapear into oblivion, and then a triumphant Braids hitting 10 times :)


Trini is the nightmare of Omni Tell

God's Eye gate to the Reikai is also an amazing card. It feeds your stax effects twice without any help, and is great when you have the tax effect but not a constant feeder. Also I've won many matches against Miracles where after he terminused my braids and ophiomancers, I wastelanded my own God's Eye (I had crucible) and I slowly built an uncounterable army of spirit tokens that Miracles couldn't answer

BUG might look like a better matchup than RUG because neither Braids nor Smokey get hit by Abrupt Decay. But if you don't apply a quick clock deathrite shaman can drain you pretty easily when you are taking so much Ancient Tomb damage. RUG on the other side, can't win if you land a chalice on 1, while BUG can still make you pay with Liliana of the Veil. Pithing Needle should be a 4 of in the sideboard, as it answers way too many threats you can't immediately tax. The 4 Leylines in the sideboard help a lot and because you play so much mana it's possible to also cast them. They help a lot against Delver decks and they never expect the Helm Kill. NEVER.

Witchbane Orb I hadn't tried it but it looks pretty good :)

Also if you want to literally kill elves, Plaguespitter is amazing.

[bruizar]

i really like this list, although I haven't had the chance to play it myself, I did experiment with black variants and played espresso stax in vintage.

Peat Bog and Mox Diamond look subpar. What are the best replacements for it in your opinion? Chrome Mox at least allows you to play it without imprinting so you can feed it to Braids, but the artifact density makes it a bad choice. As a stax/mud player, I know that Spell Pierce on Mox Diamond can mana screw you out of the game even if you have crucibles. Any alternatives that allow you to ramp into BB?

If you play with Engineered Plague or Plaguespitter, I would seriously consider Kormus Bell (yes, really) and extra Urborg's either as a way to quickly close out the game or to eliminate lands all together.

Also, I would consider sideboarding Goryo's Vengeance if you expect TinFins and Reanimate in your meta. Those decks are normally too fast to beat without quick lock components like Chalice followed with Lodestone Golem.

[Raystar]

I like the deck a lot and I'm thinking to give it a try. I have a question for you, though: wouldn't Coercive Portal be better than Bottled Cloister?

[jhhdk]

Bottled Cloister is there to break Ensnaring Bridge symmetry i think.

[Raystar]

Bottled Cloister is there to break Ensnaring Bridge symmetry i think.

Got it, thank you.

[bruizar]

This deck needs some Sundial of the infinite

[owerbart]

This deck needs some Sundial of the infinite

Sundial of the Infinite isn't that great in Braids Stax as we are not afraid of sacking permanents. Sundial would just bypass the Smokestack but won't develop your board. Both Ophiomancer and Crucible let you feed your Braids/Smokestack also let you develop you board by deploying more hate cards.

Played a very interesting game against Miracles last night. G1 I went T1 Ophiomancer followed by a trinisphere who got the best of him. Because Braids Stax mana costs are so high + caverns, even though he thought he had the board stabilized with a top+balance, the fact that he had to get a Jace as his only option to counter the smokey, i was able to continue the pressure. Even when he managed to play through so many hate and generate a lethal ammount of Angel Tokens, I already had a toxic deluge that didn't have a way to counter. I think the key card against Miracles is by far Bottled Cloister, as it's a great way to generate a card advantage that miracles won't be able to handle. G2 I had a quick chalice and again a bottled cloister, which led to a Smokestack getting resolved. Eventually he had to entreat for 1, but i was able to tick smokey to 2 without even having a feeding effect, as the cloister provided extra permanents that i played just to feed smokey until his board was nuked.

I had another interesting game against Omni-Tell where Trinispheres were amazing, and one lone Braids was able to secure the kill as he had no lands and braids assured he will never have more than one. G2 he made a T1 omniscience and I held a Trinisphere. Because he went Petal+Tomb, a T1 Wasteland on the tomb meant I had 2 turns at least to build enough hate to contain him. he played land go, and I played Peat Bog. He played another land and i jammed our favorite girl next turn. once again even though i didn't have a way to feed Braids, we went both sacking lands until braids killed herself. once again we had a clear board except I had a trinisphere staring his omniscience. he stumbled to find a second land (no cantrips, he also probably sandbagged one till i had to sac braids to itself) while the fact that i play 24 lands made the impact. i collected land after land until i managed to put a smokey into play which ate his omniscience and forced a concession.

back into retrospective, maybe I rushed a little bit with jamming the braids, as I could've taken the gamble and try to develop a little bit and gave him a window to cast some spells, because trini would've still managed to slow him down. I thought at the time that playing braids implied me not taking any guesses, but it ended up being me outdrawing my opponent when neither of us had lands.

Another g3 against Reanimator, a deck I play a lot IRL too, I've found that mulliganing aggresively for the leylines was pretty helpful, because they slowed him down enough to the point where once they solved the leyline issue they already have other lockpieces making their life miserable.

The point i'm trying to make is that comparing it to other Stax variants in the format where smokestack was useless unless you could feed it, this deck can actually hurt himself with smokey and braids, because both your opponent will suffer, but he will suffer more and die first.

[MGB]

Could you play the new Demonic Pact card in this deck?

It clearly has ways to remove it before the "you lose the game" trigger, and it can provide a ton of value until it comes to that.

[TLK]

Can someone please explain the Bottled Cloister/Smokestack interaction that the poster above was talking about in his matchup against Miracles? I think I'm missing something.

[ESG]

I'm considering going up to 61 cards to add an additional basic land, as I mulled for lands a ton. The Leylines might actually be cutable for something else as aside of one Lands player there is very little graveyard in my meta.

This is because two-thirds of your lands don't make black. I think 4 Cavern of Souls is excessive. How often do you need to see multiples? If they Wasteland it, you'll often have Crucible to grab it right back. I would recommend turning one Cavern into another Urborg so that double black is easier to achieve. I would also consider a one-of Cabal Pit as an additional, recurrable source of removal that also makes black mana. Have you considered some number of fetchlands? They would combo with your Crucibles, but I don't know if the life loss would be worth it vs. tempo decks. Seems attractive vs. control decks. The Leylines are one aspect I like because you can hard-cast them pretty easily even if you don't find them in your opening hand, but if you don't face graveyard decks, then maybe sub them for something else. Marsh Casualties could be a consideration if you up your black mana sources slightly. Other options could be Toxic Deluge or Engineered Plague. I don't really like Deluge due to losing Ophiomancer, but if you're OK with that, Deluge is definitely the stronger removal spell. I'm a big fan of Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, too. I probably would cut a Cavern or a spell for it. Peat Bog is a high-risk, high-reward card. It's great if your opponent isn't playing tempo. I also like the Helm kill and the Ratchet Bombs.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Can someone please explain the Bottled Cloister/Smokestack interaction that the poster above was talking about in his matchup against Miracles? I think I'm missing something.

Cloister draws you extra cards which allow you to play more permanents to sacrifice to Smokestack. That's it.

[owerbart]

This is because two-thirds of your lands don't make black. I think 4 Cavern of Souls is excessive. How often do you need to see multiples? If they Wasteland it, you'll often have Crucible to grab it right back. I would recommend turning one Cavern into another Urborg so that double black is easier to achieve. I would also consider a one-of Cabal Pit as an additional, recurrable source of removal that also makes black mana. Have you considered some number of fetchlands? They would combo with your Crucibles, but I don't know if the life loss would be worth it vs. tempo decks. Seems attractive vs. control decks. The Leylines are one aspect I like because you can hard-cast them pretty easily even if you don't find them in your opening hand, but if you don't face graveyard decks, then maybe sub them for something else. Marsh Casualties could be a consideration if you up your black mana sources slightly. Other options could be Toxic Deluge or Engineered Plague. I don't really like Deluge due to losing Ophiomancer, but if you're OK with that, Deluge is definitely the stronger removal spell. I'm a big fan of Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, too. I probably would cut a Cavern or a spell for it. Peat Bog is a high-risk, high-reward card. It's great if your opponent isn't playing tempo. I also like the Helm kill and the Ratchet Bombs.
I tried a couple of fetchlands in the developmental stages of the deck, not only the lifeloss hurts you, but transforms stifle, which is usually a dead card against you, into something your opponent can trade it for. The other problem is that fetches would still not be able to grab tons of swamps since you are packing tons of non swamp lands. But by far, the biggest issue I had with fetches in this deck is that it's free mana for opposing deathrite shamans, who can use it to breakthrough the trinisphere jail sooner than what you would like. I haven't tried cutting caverns, but for me the reason to play a full playset is the fact that when they matter, they make a backbreaking difference. Sometimes you REALLY need to land an ophiomancer, or you really need to start to tax with Braids, and one counterspell in one of the creatures could make the whole difference. Miracles suffers big time against them too, which is quite a popular choice nowadays. To be honest, most of my mulligans with this deck weren't because i didn't have a way to produce black mana, but due to the fact that I couldn't put any pressure until T3. Cabal Pit is a nice option that can of course function as a mini-snipe engine, the problem for me is that to be fair this deck isn't the best at achieving threshold, all the sacking effects might give the idea you could, but I played very very grindy games where I ended with 5 cards at best in my graveyard. Against quick decks I could see Cabal Pit taxing damage having a much more protagonical role that it's utility. But this brings me to a point that popped into my head while revisiting Pox Stax: Maybe we can run a Dakmor Savage, which itself functions as a constant feeding, but the constant dredging might flip cards you aren't supposed to mill into your graveyard, while also not providing any card advantage.


About other boardsweepers, I've been running 3 copies of Toxic Deluge (see my decklist a few posts before) and I love them, because how well they fit into our mana-curve. Most of the times you cast it you will only be paying 2-3 life, and if you have to cast your Toxic Deluge, probably is because Ophiomancer was useless in that position. I like a ton the idea of upping the count on Wrath effects, maybe some damnations in our sideboard? God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai functions spectacularly in this deck, I wish I could run multiple copies, but having two in your opening hand could probably give this deck too much of clunky draws and also create embarassing positions. Still I love it as a one of, as it can be wastelanded by yourself if you have a crucible to create an uncounterable supply of creatures, but also the fact that it replaces itself with a stax effect online gives you so much value, as even if you don't have a feeding effect you are basically trading a land for 3 permanents of them. Peat Bog is quite a great card that if dropped T1 puts too much pressure in your opponent, as either they wasteland it or they play with the fear that you will untap with BB + whatever mana you drop, which can prove to be devastating, like a T2 Braids or a T2 smokestack, without losing life. I'll agree with you and say that peat bog is at it's best in the Miracles matchup too.

Demonic Pact indeed looks sweet. It could be amazing if Braids could let you sac enchantments, so I can imagine a situation of having a Pact stuck in hand and you don't cast it because you don't have a clear way of getting rid of it. Still I find the card amazing and I'm 100% enthusiastic in giving it a try. Ratchet bomb hasn't been in my radar but I know that people here play it with notable success. I would like to know specially in which matchups you bring it in? Finally, yes, the Helm Kill is amazing coming out of the sideboard. They NEVER, EVER, EVER see it coming. And the beauty of it is that if your opponent plays against you sometimes and kind of knows that avenue of attack, you can easily cut the Helms from your sideboard entirely and Leyline will still be a potent card on it's own to sideboard in, so maybe your opponent sees the leyline and plays the whole game afraid of a Helm Kill which isn't there at all.

Overall what I like about the deck is that it has tons of sweet synergies together, but every card can be very potent on it's own. @Admiral_Arzar @ESG do you guys want to share your decklists?

I'm really confident on where this deck is going :cool:

[Admiral_Arzar]

Ratchet bomb hasn't been in my radar but I know that people here play it with notable success. I would like to know specially in which matchups you bring it in? Finally, yes, the Helm Kill is amazing coming out of the sideboard. They NEVER, EVER, EVER see it coming. And the beauty of it is that if your opponent plays against you sometimes and kind of knows that avenue of attack, you can easily cut the Helms from your sideboard entirely and Leyline will still be a potent card on it's own to sideboard in, so maybe your opponent sees the leyline and plays the whole game afraid of a Helm Kill which isn't there at all.

Overall what I like about the deck is that it has tons of sweet synergies together, but every card can be very potent on it's own. @Admiral_Arzar @ESG do you guys want to share your decklists?

I'm really confident on where this deck is going :cool:

My decklist hasn't changed from the post on 6/03 as I haven't been playing the deck in the last few weeks. As for Ratchet Bomb, I board it in against decks that have Delver, Token hoards (ETW primarily), and random noncreature permanents that cause blowouts like Rest in Peace. It's a Delver killer that happens to be a Swiss army knife against low-cost permanents. I've even killed Planeswalkers with it in the past. I've never played Helm simply because of space issues in the sideboard, although I might try it out at a later date.

[Qweerios]

What do you guys think of this deck?


4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mardu Strike Leader
4 Ophiomancer
4 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Master of the Wild Hunt

4 Abrupt Decay

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
2 Choke
4 Nether Void

2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
4 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest


The idea is to lock the opponent out with Nether Void + any combination of Trini/Choke/Chalice. For example, Trini and Nether Void makes sure that every spell your opponent plays costs him a minimum of 6 mana. Chalice + Nether Void makes sure that every spell your opponent can cast cost at least 4 mana. The beauty of this deck lies in its ability to cast spells through these lock pieces via Cavern of Souls because it allows us to ignore Nether Void altogether. The same goes for Abrupt Decay regardless of Cavern.

[lilevo]

@Qweerios: I think you are trying to play Sylvan Plug

[Blastoderm]

What do you guys think of this deck?


4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mardu Strike Leader
4 Ophiomancer
4 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Master of the Wild Hunt

4 Abrupt Decay

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
2 Choke
4 Nether Void

2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
4 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest


The idea is to lock the opponent out with Nether Void + any combination of Trini/Choke/Chalice. For example, Trini and Nether Void makes sure that every spell your opponent plays costs him a minimum of 6 mana. Chalice + Nether Void makes sure that every spell your opponent can cast cost at least 4 mana. The beauty of this deck lies in its ability to cast spells through these lock pieces via Cavern of Souls because it allows us to ignore Nether Void altogether. The same goes for Abrupt Decay regardless of Cavern.

With that many token producers why not Contamination? Or Bitterblossom?

[Admiral_Arzar]

What do you guys think of this deck?


4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mardu Strike Leader
4 Ophiomancer
4 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Master of the Wild Hunt

4 Abrupt Decay

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
2 Choke
4 Nether Void

2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
4 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest


The idea is to lock the opponent out with Nether Void + any combination of Trini/Choke/Chalice. For example, Trini and Nether Void makes sure that every spell your opponent plays costs him a minimum of 6 mana. Chalice + Nether Void makes sure that every spell your opponent can cast cost at least 4 mana. The beauty of this deck lies in its ability to cast spells through these lock pieces via Cavern of Souls because it allows us to ignore Nether Void altogether. The same goes for Abrupt Decay regardless of Cavern.

First off, Nether Void is bad. I've played it in multiple decks, and the card is a double-edged sword. If you don't draw Cavern it's awful. If your opponent draws more lands than you, it's awful. If you draw it in multiples, it's awful. I'm also not a fan of Noble here, it doesn't tap for black or allow us to make degenerate turn one plays. Otherwise the idea is sound (I'm a big fan of Master of the Wild Hunt) but testing will be needed to see if it's worth playing your list over mono-black Stax or Sylvan Plug, which it seems to be an amalgamation of. I would also like to see Sylvan Library in there somewhere if you are playing green.

[owerbart]

I've been toying a lot with Trading Post lately. The card looks super efficient in the sense that it does a lot of the things this deck wants to make. The Goats are food for the stax effects, and the lifegain has been to me at least very relevant. The ability of getting back lock pieces from the graveyard also seems relevant, and the sinergy it has with Ophiomancer is ridicoulous. I'm still not sure what I would like to cut, but I just wanted to give a little update.

[Redkid43]

The Master of the Wild Hunt list could easily play Library over Void.

[owerbart]

Hi. So after further testing Trading Post gives the deck a new angle of grinding that has been very pleasant. The card does everything the deck wants to make, it gives a new recurring food for our stax effects, also the Goats function as great chumpblockers. The synergy with Ophiomancer is amazing to keep getting lockpieces back from the graveyard in case they got countered, the gaining life ability has worked fantastic for me, as not only is extremely good with Bridge (reducing your hand size) but also because it gives you life which is objectively what you want to keep up against decks that you want bridge. The artifact sac outlet to draw cards has also been proven to be nice lategame when you draw redundant lockpieces (like double trini)

Sideboard wise, I ran across a very nice fellow in Cockatrice that told me about Damping Matrix as a card for this deck. Basically it works as a Pithing Needle but it plays smoothly through chalice. I've also been running Phyrexian Revokers in the board, the synergy the card has with Trading Post has been amazing.

I have cut a Bottled Cloister and a Crucible of Worlds and replaced them with Trading Posts. I still wanted to keep the card advantage cloister has, but unlike T.Post, I've become afraid of casting the card in the dark, specially because it's not that good against SnT (it's great in the Miracles MU tho). Cutting the 3rd Crucible for T.Post also made the deck a tad bit smoother, as you won't get stuck with multiple crucibles that often, and T.Post is always active doing something, while Crucible isn't that good if you don't establish a sac lock.

[TLK]

Hi. So after further testing Trading Post gives the deck a new angle of grinding that has been very pleasant. The card does everything the deck wants to make, it gives a new recurring food for our stax effects, also the Goats function as great chumpblockers. The synergy with Ophiomancer is amazing to keep getting lockpieces back from the graveyard in case they got countered, the gaining life ability has worked fantastic for me, as not only is extremely good with Bridge (reducing your hand size) but also because it gives you life which is objectively what you want to keep up against decks that you want bridge. The artifact sac outlet to draw cards has also been proven to be nice lategame when you draw redundant lockpieces (like double trini)

Sideboard wise, I ran across a very nice fellow in Cockatrice that told me about Damping Matrix as a card for this deck. Basically it works as a Pithing Needle but it plays smoothly through chalice. I've also been running Phyrexian Revokers in the board, the synergy the card has with Trading Post has been amazing.

I have cut a Bottled Cloister and a Crucible of Worlds and replaced them with Trading Posts. I still wanted to keep the card advantage cloister has, but unlike T.Post, I've become afraid of casting the card in the dark, specially because it's not that good against SnT (it's great in the Miracles MU tho). Cutting the 3rd Crucible for T.Post also made the deck a tad bit smoother, as you won't get stuck with multiple crucibles that often, and T.Post is always active doing something, while Crucible isn't that good if you don't establish a sac lock.

Mind sharing your current list?

[owerbart]

Mind sharing your current list?

Sure. It's still very similar to the decklist I posted a page ago:

Artifacts: (25)
2 Bottled Cloister
4 Chalice of The Void
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
2 Trading Post
4 Trinisphere

Creature (9)
4 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Ophiomancer
1 Mardu Strike Leader

Sorcery (2)
2 Toxic Deluge

Lands (24)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
1 God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai
2 Peat Bog
4 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland


As you can see only 3 new cards have appeared, the aforementioned Trading Post and I replaced a Toxic Deluge for a Mardu Strike Leader, which in theory should be pretty good to close out games. Unfortunately, after all my testing, I still haven't managed to draw the card a single time. Overall the deck feels waaay more smoother, trading post really feels comfortable and you will always have a reason to use one of it's 4 abilities. And although I'm just playing in cockatrice, I keep a record of the decks I play against and I have a healthy win rate against a big chunk of the tier 1 decks.

[owerbart]

I played some matches in cockatrice and I confirmed my suspicions about Trading Post. The card is definitely where we want to go.

Match 1 vs RUG Delver

G1: I assemble a Esnaring Bridge T1 and he scoops instantly
G2: I assumed that the auto scooping against Bridge meant he was on some kind of Sneak and Show, so I boarded out the Toxic Deluges and put Damping Matrixes and Phyrexian Revokers in, which after he went T1 goose became instant dead cards
G3: My first chalice and a Trini get destructive relveried, my ophiomancer gets bolted but the snake token is left behind. After I resolve bridge I'm pretty sure that he's out of artifact removal, and he concedes as he can't win from there.

Match 2 vs Merfolk:

G1: He's on the play and lands T1 Vial. I go T1 chalice which looks silly. I keep drawing into trinis and more chalices and he kills me through vial before I can establish a lock, but not before I see he has Chalices of his own, so I board them out.
G2: My ensnaring Bridge goes unanswered and Trading Post comes next, + a revoker on vial. Between gaining Life and reducing my hand size to bridge I'm able to lock him before a braids shows up and eats his board
G3: He goes island go. I go all in and jam trini T1, which resolves. He never finds a 3rd land and I'm able to lock him from there

Match 3 vs 4cc Delver

G1: He goes t1 shaman go, my chalice gets dazed but after he lands delver y set a Smokestack T2 which resolves. His delver helps without flipping and he stifles my smokestack twice while I jam crucible and ensnaring bridge, and he scoops when he sees the inevitability of his permanents getting cleaned.
G2: I play around a possible Ancient Grudge, so I set a chalice in 1 expecting it to get grudged, which it does. I follow it with a trini but he managed to play around it and Grudges my ensnaring bridge, then decays my trini and he cashes in a ton of cantrips. Eventually it resumes to him having a young pyromancer and some tokens and I casting Toxic deluge, which trades for his last two cards that are fow+blue card, and he kills me before i can lock him again.
G3: I land T1 chalice, we trade some wastelands, but i manage to sweep some of his remaining lands with braids, he starts to accumulate cards in hand so he can discard grudge to hand size and destroy my chalice, but I land trinisphere and that option is erased, and he concedes.

Match 4 vs Reanimator

G1: Chalice and Trini set him way too much behind and he concedes before I can see he's on reanimator, so I don't board anything G2
G2: I have an Ophiomancer G1 but he entombs eot for Tyrant and I can't do a lot from there.
G3: I open with Leyline of the void and a chalice. Smokestack + Trading Post seal the deal.


Match 5 vs Punishing Maverick

G1: I land a T1 chalice and a T2 Trini, he lands a Sylvan Library to decay my Trini, but a smokestack backed by crucible starts killing his lands and locking him out of the game.
G2: I really feel I punted this one hard. I have an ophiomancer, bridge and the snake token against to big big big KOTR (I didn't board in the Leylines) and eventually some nice maneuvering of him involving mazes of ith and timely decays take me out.
G3: My opening hand has leyline and Helm of obedience but only 2 swamps. I decide to go for it. I draw a cavern that gets wasted, but I draw waste and tomb in a row and manage to cast and activate helm for the kill in the face of a Liliana :)

Overall the deck felt really really good and I like the fact that you can get tons of stuff countered but the deck keeps being resilient. I highly encourage you fellow Braids Stax pilots to try Trading Post, the card outperformed greatly for me. On the other hand, even though I checked twice, I haven't managed to draw Mardu Strike Leader not even once in a single game :(

[Wotkenmendo]

I like the trading post! Going to run a list very close to yours at my LGS, maybe this Sunday. What's your sideboard looking like now? Do you still have 3 Spines/can you speak to their usefulness? I may try to fit in one, though I imagine they are just for Show and Tell decks.

4x Braids, Cabal Minion
4x Smokestack
4x Ophiomancer
4x Mox Diamond
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere

3x Crucible of Worlds
3x Ensnaring Bridge

2x Toxic Deluge
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Trading Post

4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Wasteland
8x Swamp
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

4x Leyline of the Void
4x Helm of Obedience
3x Witchbane Orb
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Desecration Demon/Abyssal Persecutor

[owerbart]

I like the trading post! Going to run a list very close to yours at my LGS, maybe this Sunday. What's your sideboard looking like now? Do you still have 3 Spines/can you speak to their usefulness? I may try to fit in one, though I imagine they are just for Show and Tell decks.

4x Braids, Cabal Minion
4x Smokestack
4x Ophiomancer
4x Mox Diamond
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere

3x Crucible of Worlds
3x Ensnaring Bridge

2x Toxic Deluge
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Trading Post

4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Wasteland
8x Swamp
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

4x Leyline of the Void
4x Helm of Obedience
3x Witchbane Orb
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Desecration Demon/Abyssal Persecutor

I like your list. I went 4-1 yesterday with some slight modifications to the list I posted in this page. My sideboard right now has the Helm Combo, and the 7 other slots are varying from time to time. I found that 3 Bridges were too much sometimes, I think I'll add one to the sideboard and maybe get another card in. Also SnT decks aren't present in my meta that much, so I took all of the Ashen Rider-esque effects. I also recommend you to get some Perish in as it helps to cope against GSZ, that card can really wreck you. I can see your point of getting two Urborgs to help you fix your mana, but I've never really had a problem with the 4 Caverns. But then again, I don't play Liliana so my need for black for anything other than the creatures is just for deluge.

A card that really performed for me in testing was Seal of Doom. The card can work as a creature-kill but i can also play the role of a sacking permanent.

Right now a cool sideboard could be:

8 Combo pieces
1 Plague Spitter
1 Notorious Assassin
2 Thorn of Ametyst
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Perish
1 Virtue's Ruin

[GrimoirePath]

I have been tinkering with a similar concept. Current list is this:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
4 Aether Vial
4 Black vise
4 Mox opal
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Winter Orb
3 Braids Cabal Minion
3 Bitterblossom
1 Bad Moon
1 Underworld dreams
1 replenish
2 cranial plating

4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Scrubland
1 Bayou
4 Fetchland
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Karakas


Not exactly the same concept, but a lot of similar tech. I love braids, karakas, and vial. Turn one black vise can actually sometimes end up pushing the opponent down ten or so life, especially in concert with wasteland or winter orb. Meanwhile, tick a vial up to four. So many peoples hands are jammed with removal and counters, that doing nothing at all with a vise or two in play can hilariously jam them up.

Bitterblossom online and making tokens can hit hard with no answers. Bad moon synergizes so well, too (even pumping braids and deathrites out of punishing fire range.) Moms chump block goyfs and keep DRS and braids alive. Cranial plating turns Vises, Orbs, etc. into lifelink goodness and can ride a rogue faery to victory.

Basically, this started as a slow, durdle deck i made for fun, but I have come to really like it.

[owerbart]

I have been tinkering with a similar concept. Current list is this:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
4 Aether Vial
4 Black vise
4 Mox opal
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Winter Orb
3 Braids Cabal Minion
3 Bitterblossom
1 Bad Moon
1 Underworld dreams
1 replenish
2 cranial plating

4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Scrubland
1 Bayou
4 Fetchland
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Karakas


Not exactly the same concept, but a lot of similar tech. I love braids, karakas, and vial. Turn one black vise can actually sometimes end up pushing the opponent down ten or so life, especially in concert with wasteland or winter orb. Meanwhile, tick a vial up to four. So many peoples hands are jammed with removal and counters, that doing nothing at all with a vise or two in play can hilariously jam them up.

Bitterblossom online and making tokens can hit hard with no answers. Bad moon synergizes so well, too (even pumping braids and deathrites out of punishing fire range.) Moms chump block goyfs and keep DRS and braids alive. Cranial plating turns Vises, Orbs, etc. into lifelink goodness and can ride a rogue faery to victory.

Basically, this started as a slow, durdle deck i made for fun, but I have come to really like it.

I like your list, however, how do you fare yourself against combo decks? Discard in the sideboard? I think a good thing the core list has are the trinis and the chalices.

For the people playing Liliana: How are you doing with it? Does it fill your expectations? I've been wanting to try her again but my current manabase wouldn't be able to support it. I feel that Chalice + Liliana could be a non-bo, since it's +1, if you have chalices or Trinis down, wouldn't be that good considering they will have junk to discard. The -2 is of course amazing, and the -6 of course it's good but we already have 8 effects doing it.

Also I've trimmed the Mardu Strike Leader and went back to the 3 Toxic Deluges.

I've been trying Pack Rat lately. Not only it does create feeding for stax effects, but also seems amazing post-board if people are going to cut down their creature removal spells.

I've been toying around with Null Brooch and Uba Mask too. Mask was a vintage staple that felt out of favor. On the good side it stops people from miracling things, and lowers the impact of counterspells, but it doesn't stop dredge. Null Brooch is great when you have a bottled cloister down. You get a free negate each turn. I feel the card could be good even if you don't have a cloister. An active trading post could bring your pieces back, or an active crucible could bring the lands. It's not as good to defend your lockpieces, however, since decay is uncounterable and grip has split second. It counters council's, wear/tear, and disenchant though.

Contamination is a card I just feel is like a win-more. Giving only black mana isn't as devastating as having only Red mana (Blood Moon effects). BUG decks can still cast shaman and fix their stuff, and you should already have a very favorable matchup vs Miracles, RUG and Patriot.

[GrimoirePath]

Have tried it against combo. Trinis and chalices should slow them well, and if Braids can get online, hopefully force them to eat their land. But yeah, it could go either way. They could be fast and give no shits about what i do and just go off over my head.

[owerbart]

Have tried it against combo. Trinis and chalices should slow them well, and if Braids can get online, hopefully force them to eat their land. But yeah, it could go either way. They could be fast and give no shits about what i do and just go off over my head.

Yeah makes sense.

Also, I've been thinking about adding Gloom to my sideboard as a way to battle Miracle if they start to lean heavily on Mentors, as well as the Virtue's Ruin. Also the card would completely rekt DnT if you can keep a revoker or two in your board for the Vials. I've been agressively boarding in the Leyline Helm Combo too, with decent success for now.

[owerbart]

I made top 8 in today's argentina's legacy league.

after toying a lot with Uba Mask, Gloom and other goodstuff I decided to try a more basic approach and went with the classic list (3 toxic deluges)

Sideboard:

4 Leyline
4 Helm of The Void
1 Virtue's Ruin
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Plague Spitter
2 Perish


R1 = Merfolks

G1: I get a quick lock with Smokey and Crucible
G2: I get another quick lock with an Ophiomancer and Smokey.

R2 = Grixis Control

G1: He therapies away my trinisphere and I have a slow start with no realistic lock pieces. Tokens beat me to the death
G2: I have a quick chalice which gets decayed, a smokey gets discarded but I manage to Trading Post, getting the smokey back, which forces a concession
G3: He has a quick start and although i have a chalice he manages to play through it. I never really manage to draw a Deluge in 3 games, unfortunately.

R3 = BUG Loam

G1: I have a chalice and eventually an ohpiomancer, and he deploys a Pernicious Deed, I cast braids in my turn to keep him off 4 mana, but he gets a nether spirit and with a bad judge call he gets recursivity when he shouldn't be able to.
G2: I lock him really, really fast fast
G3: He goes to 6 and I keep a one-lander with Leyline and Helm. I tank about it and decide to keep it, mostly because it was basic swamp so I was at least unwastelandable. The game is just land-go for 3 turns until he taps out for a deed and I cast and activate helm, milling him

R4 = Reanimator

G1: I assemble a Trini T2 on the play and chalices on 3 (I knew he played show and tell) and 2. We play draw go for a while until i manage to get a second black source to jam braids, and it's game.
G2: I try to mull to leyline, but I can't. My chalices get decayed and I can't present a decent clock at all. Eventually he show and tells Griz and it's game.
G3: I open with Leyline and Chalice in 1 which gets decayed. I have the chance to cast Smokey or Bottled Cloister, with Helm in my hand. I put Smokey trying to test a FoW, but also because I suspect that he was all-in on show and tell, so bottled cloister would be a nonbo. In his turn he shows and tells, He puts Griselbrand and I jam the helm :)

R5 = Reanimator

We were both locked for top 8 so we take ID.

Top 8 is:

1. Aggro Loam
2. Sneak and Show
3. Miracles
4. Death and Taxes
5. Reanimator
6. Braids Stax ---> me :)
7. Reanimator
8. Shardless BUG

Top 8 = Miracles

G1 = He has a pretty good hand with the one-of council's judgement for my chalice, my braids and ophiomancer get plowed, and I need to draw some gas while he's stuck in two lands. But I keep drawing land for 5 turns in a row, which is unfortunate and he eventually manages to keep jace on top to counter my stuff
G2 = I lock him really fast
G3 = We both mull to 6, I have a chalice t1 and a hand full of gas, but I don't draw any land for a long time and when I do he has an active mentor and 3 swords for all my answers

Overall a pretty fun tournament, I really liked my list but losing to both elemental and monk tokens made me feel like I really wanted a 4th deluge in the deck, at least SB. Perishes and Engineered Plague would also be good answers. Stealing two games with the Helm+Void Combo really makes me feel like I want the two playsets in every sideboard variation of this deck.

[owerbart]

Ali Aintrazi wrote an article on our deck :)

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=13004&writer=Ali+Aintrazi

On another point, I'm thinking about Guardian Beast as a way to protect our cards post-sideboard.

[Admiral_Arzar]

For the people playing Liliana: How are you doing with it? Does it fill your expectations? I've been wanting to try her again but my current manabase wouldn't be able to support it. I feel that Chalice + Liliana could be a non-bo, since it's +1, if you have chalices or Trinis down, wouldn't be that good considering they will have junk to discard. The -2 is of course amazing, and the -6 of course it's good but we already have 8 effects doing it.


I haven't commented in this thread in forever so I figured I'd address some things. Liliana is INSANE and I highly recommend her. Her -2 is great to kill early threats, and her +1 (while you currently point out it's not great with Chalice) serves as an additional thumbscrew to put pressure on your opponent. An upticking Lili is super scary for an opponent who lacks creatures or is locked behind Ensnaring Bridge, because losing half your board when you're already under pressure from Wasteland and various Smokestack effects is crippling. This deck generally goes hellbent quickly anyways, so her +1 is rarely a drawback. At the very worst she eats a counter or removal and allows you to force through other bombs.




Overall a pretty fun tournament, I really liked my list but losing to both elemental and monk tokens made me feel like I really wanted a 4th deluge in the deck, at least SB. Perishes and Engineered Plague would also be good answers. Stealing two games with the Helm+Void Combo really makes me feel like I want the two playsets in every sideboard variation of this deck.

Engineered Plague is an excellent sideboard card and is worthy of at least 2 slots IMO. It's great against tribal decks, Mentor decks, Pyro decks, and also Death and Taxes (naming human). I've been tempted to play Night of Soul's Betrayal here, I just don't like the nombo with glorious Ophiomancer.


Ali Aintrazi wrote an article on our deck :)

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=13004&writer=Ali+Aintrazi

On another point, I'm thinking about Guardian Beast as a way to protect our cards post-sideboard.

It's good to see this deck getting a bit of exposure, considering I can probably count the number of people that play it on one hand.

[owerbart]

I made Top4 in the last Legacy event of the year.

I was until the last second to add Revokers main and Cloisters to the side, but I figured out I wanted to consolidate the list to wrap up the year.

R1: Miracles (very skilled player) - No mentors in main 1-1-1

G1 I lock him super fast
G2 takes forever. I land a chalice and a smokey that get Wear n' Teared and a Smokey getting judged by the council. However I manage to rebuild and start to beat him with a revoker and a spirit token, and I realize he's having pretty poor draws. Eventually I get him to one life but he manages to stabilize. At this point there's close to 15 minutes on the clock, I probably should've conceded and shuffle for game 3, but goddamn he was at 1 life...:cry: I get ultimated by jace and we pack it up for game 3 with 1 minute in the clock, given that neither deck could kill that fast, a draw was agreed.

R2: Deathblade 2-1

G1 I lock him really fast, and then smokey and ophio finish him off.
G2 Somehow brainfarted and thought I was playing against Miracles again, so i've boarded pretty wrong and a T2 Liliana turned out to kill me.
G3 I lock him super fast and i'm able to play through some wastes, eventually I kill him with Pack Rat that couldn't grow as I didn't had black mana :laugh:

R3: Infect 2-1

G1 He's on the play and leads with trop-go. I knew that my opponent was on infect and I could make a Bridge T1, but I test the waters first with a Trinisphere that fortunately gets in, which means that the T2 bridge is good to go. T4 i slam the cloister locking his infectors.
G2 We both mull to 6, he doesn't seem happy with his 6 so I take the shot with a hand with no T1 play but a T2 Trini. Unfortunately he leades with Glistener Elf, and G2 he infects me for 9. On my turn if i draw black mana I could cast Perish to get some breathing space, but I don't and the trini wouldn't help at all.
G3 I lock him super fast :smile:


R4: Miracles (some mentors in main) 2-0

G1: I have the nut opening hand with trini, smokey and recursion, and i keep drawing good stuff. Pretty lopsided game.
G2: My first 3 or 4 lockpieces get countered but he's stuck on lands, and I'm holding the fort with an ophiomancer, until i trade the snake token against the mentor and the ophio gets sent to the farm. Eventually a braids starts to nuke his stuff while i'm recovering with crucible. I take some monk token's hits but a Smokey appears and in concert with braids nukes the entire board except for a swamp and the crucible, and he concedes :smile:

R5: Grixis Delver ID

We see the standings and both get to top8 if we draw, so we take it, really happy I'm able to make the Top8 again, this time undefeated :cool:

Top8 Standings: (can't remember the correct order)

Grixis Delver
Braids Stax :smile:
UW Stoneblade with back to basics
Jund
Miracles
Sneak and Show
Miracles
Infect

Top8 vs Miracles (4 Mentors + Daze)

G1 I have a chalice + ophio + Braids eating his board, he tries to hold on with a mentor and throwing spells to the chalice to get some tokens but eventually he concedes.
G2: I have some lockpieces and I punish his duals, eventually I just need to find some action and I have it. But, tough luck, I draw like 10-12 lands in a row, he gets free from the lockpieces and kills me.
G3: I just lock him superfast and kill him with a revoker.

Top4 UW Stoneblade.

G1: I have a trini T1 but I make a obscene mistake with which land to pitch to the mox, which doesn't allow me to lock him and I die.
G2: I have chalice and he concedes after I have an online cloister + bridge and already nuked his creatures twice.
G3: Sadly I mull to 5 and can't get anything going :cry: Should've taken the time to pile shuffle :(

Overall again, a pretty nice tournament and I'm really glad to had good results against every variation of Miracles, be it with or without mentor Also first time I played against Infect IRL (had some experience against it on cockatrice, which helped a lot), and that match got recorded, so if it gets uploaded to youtube I'll post the link for you guys to take a look :)

Also this was the first tournament ever where I never boarded in neither the Helms nor the Leylines.

Cheers, happy holidays and have a great year!

[owerbart]

What do you guys think of the new Eldrazis for this deck?

I'm particularly excited for Warping Wail

1<>

Instant

Choose one:

. Exile target creature with power or toughness 1 or less
. Counter Target Sorcery Spell
. Put a colorless eldrazi Scion Token 1/1 with "Sac: Add <> to your mana Pool"

I'm really happy about this one. First of all, it's a counterspell that could take out Council's Judgement or other malicious sorceries. Can work to snipe a creature, and also in desperate cases, can work as food for Braids or Smokey :)

[chalice]

I love the lists posted in this forum, but I'm also interested in what an aggro version of braids stax would look like. I like the idea of being aggro in the main board and having the sideboard transform into control. When I played nearly creatureless armageddon stax, some matches seemed unwinnable simply because the damage clock was too slow (some decks given enough time can break the lock). Plus resource denial and aggro go well together. Here's my mainboard:
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 mishra's factory
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 cavern of souls
4 mox diamond
4 smokestack
4 trinisphere
4 crucible of worlds
4 chalice of the void
4 ophiomancer
4 braids, cabal minion
4 mardu strike leader
2 nekrataal
2 umezawa's jitte

And my sideboard:
4 ensnaring bridge
3 toxic deluge
2 trading post
2 bottled cloister
2 leyline of the void
2 lodestone golem

Nekrataal, uncounterable with cavern, can kill Emrakul, tarmogoyf, delver, etc. It's untested but I'm really excited about it.

As I see it, there are two roads these aggro lists can go down. All humans, all uncounterable with caven of souls, but because of cavern unable to have enough black to cast things like Liliana. Or non humans, like the japanese list posted a while back with bitterblossoms, Ob nixilis of the black oath, batterskull, bane of the living, etc. I played two tournaments with a list similar to it and did poorly, but a list might work if it was built around playing four bloodgift demon instead.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I think if you're trying to go agro with this deck you should look into the new Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet. He dodges bolt and decay, has lifelink, hoses dredge, and makes a dude everytime your opponent sacrifices one.

[darkgh0st]

Hi owerbart,

I've been reading this forum as I was looking for a MUD stax splash black and found this very useful. Congratz on your success.

I'm a couple cards short of your list. The card that I find useful in this deck, maybe sideboard first as a trial, is Bearer of Silence.

[Malchar]

@chalice
I like the idea of playing a more aggressive list. The deck will have more threats which is crucial for a deck with limited card draw and card selection. However, I don't think that we should rely on cavern of souls to dictate which threats we use. Mardu strike leader looks so much worse than bitterblossom that I can't believe it is a worthwhile trade. Even if our threats are countered, they still trade one for one. This deck often has enough mana and time to cast multiple threats. Using cavern of souls also weakens the manabase to wasteland when it could otherwise be a basic swamp. The deck can lose to tempo decks if our mana is disturbed.

[chalice]

Malchar, I think you're right. The non-cavern route seems best. For those also interested, here's Ishikawa Teruhito's list that originaly inspired me to run higher mana cost threats, more creatures, and equipment. I love all the odd choices, even the ones I don't agree with:
3 Polluted Delta / 오염된 삼각주
4 Ancient Tomb /
3 City of Traitors /
2 Marsh Flats /
1 Phyrexian Tower /
3 Swamp / 늪
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth / 야그모쓰의 무덤 우르보그
2 Verdant Catacombs /
4 Wasteland /
-----
대지 총 25 장

4 Ophiomancer /
3 Braids, Cabal Minion /
-----
생물 주문 총 7 장
2 Toxic Deluge /
4 Bitterblossom /
4 Chalice of the Void /
4 Chrome Mox /
3 Umezawa's Jitte /
2 Crucible of Worlds /
2 Phyrexian Totem /
4 Trinisphere /
1 Liliana of the Veil /
2 Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath /
-----
주문 총 28 장

사이드보드
2 Chains of Mephistopheles /
1 Nether Void /
1 Engineered Plague /
2 Ensnaring Bridge /
2 Gate to Phyrexia /
4 Leyline of the Void /
1 Dismember /
2 Liliana of the Veil /
-----
사이드보드 총 15 장
right now I'm looking at
bitterblossom
umezawa's jitte
ob nixilis of the black oath
batterskull
bloodgift demon
bane of the living
There's not enough room for them all, so I have some tough decisions to make. On a sidenote, I highly recommend mishra's factory. As someone who has played white stax, I often look at the differences and think, 'is there any reason we don't play this card too?' The same goes for the tabernacle at pendrel vale, although not for aggro versions of the deck obviously. You really have to play with it to understand how strong it is. Basically, they have to sac something in order to play something.
Edit: (I don't actually own a tabernacle. what I mean is I've played magus of the tabernacle, roughly $600 to $800 cheaper.)

[Malchar]

One other card that I think is worth mentioning is tomb of urami. This is purely speculation, but if you play moxes and crucible of worlds, it can be a nice uncounterable threat. It also adds a threat to your deck without competing for spell slots.

I'd also like to see dark ritual in more decklists. The fast mana gives you significantly better goldfishing for chalice and trinisphere turn one. It's obviously bad if you already have either of those artifacts in play, but so are moxes. I figure if you resolved a lock piece already, then you're doing pretty good regardless. This kind of plays counter to the "more creatures" idea because you're banking on the strength of the lock pieces, but it is an important debate to have.

[owerbart]

Hi owerbart,

I've been reading this forum as I was looking for a MUD stax splash black and found this very useful. Congratz on your success.

I'm a couple cards short of your list. The card that I find useful in this deck, maybe sideboard first as a trial, is Bearer of Silence.

Thanks a lot darkgh0st :) indeed I feel bearer of silence can be a pretty good card for this deck.

@Chalice

Hi! Thanks for the responses, indeed I think an aggro-er version of Braids Stax could be playable, the problem I had in testing is that even if you managed to sneak some guys in, most of the time they are going to get outclassed by things like Goyf or even Baleful Strix. I was never a fan of Crucible of worlds as more than a 2-of, as the card is pretty much dead once you already have the first one in play. However I think that Mardu Strike Leader is a good card and I'm really struggling in putting him in my lists, but I'm pretty sure it has to be excellent in yours. I always liked the transition from control->aggro post board rather than viceversa, because at least from my experience, if you can give the feeling to your opponent that G1 was just about imprisoning him and then beating him with an Ophio, he'll board some removal out. However if you whack him quickly G1 he's gonna still have removal but also board in goodies against you. I really like the idea of nekrataal too. I highly suggest you try Plague Spitter then, the card is amazing to shorten clocks, and also can kill any weenies they throw in your way. Bloodgift Demon is a card I also wanted to try in my lists, but at least in my experience, this deck is great at getting to 4 mana quickly but not so good at getting to 5.

@Malchar I can really see your points about Cavern of Souls, but they really justify themselves everytime I have them. I think that if you are going to splash more non-human black cards it could make sense to cut some of them. Tomb of Urami is a sweet one, but then again, if you want uncounterable stuff, just play Cavern. About Dark Ritual, I completely HATE the card in these type of decks, because what these decks want is a continuous supply of accelerated mana (Sol-Lands and Moxes) and not just a one-shot thing. Also, after T1, Dark Ritual literally reads "You skipped your Draw Phase", and because we aren't playing any card selection, there's no way to filter them. I'm open to try any variation/cards in this deck, but I'm 99,99% (you never truly know) that Dark Ritual should be played in Storm decks and has no place here. Also Bitterblossom was cut because the lifeloss hurt a lot in the end, specially when you add Tombs to the equation. Mishra's Factory is still in my to-test list, I really like it and could be great to mitigate flood, and also must have good synergy with Trading Post. Tabernacle I tried but eventually didn't like the interaction between it and Ophiomancer.

Anyways I'm ready to be proven wrong, keep rocking with Braids Stax!

[hofzge]

4 Chrome Mox /


Are you sure this is exactly his list? Chrome Mox makes little sense with 25 lands and 15 colored spells.

[hofzge]

Went 3-1 yesterday with German Bustamante's list, but as I only have 3 Toxic Deluges I swapped the one in the sideboard for a Night of Souls' Betrayal.

4 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Ophiomancer
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
3 Toxic Deluge
3 Trading Post
4 Trinisphere
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
2 Peat Bog
4 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

SB

1 Bottled Cloister
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Plague Spitter
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal


The deck is a blast to play! It feels great to play draft cards (Braibs, Ophiomancer, Plague Spitter, Peat Bog, gods' Eye) and win against the hyperefficient combo decks ;)
The rounds were against Lands (2-1), Esper Stoneblade (2-0), Reanimator (2-1) and Aggro Loam (0-2).

I am unsure of the maindeck Revokers, but the rest performed admirably. I never needed the Toxic Deluges, but I guess that was more due to the matchups than them not being necessary. All the games against Lands and Reanimator were won via Helm-Line and I also boarded it in against Loam, but got outgrinded.

[caprino]

Went 3-1 yesterday with German Bustamante's list, but as I only have 3 Toxic Deluges I swapped the one in the sideboard for a Night of Souls' Betrayal.

4 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Ophiomancer
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
3 Toxic Deluge
3 Trading Post
4 Trinisphere
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
2 Peat Bog
4 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

SB

1 Bottled Cloister
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Plague Spitter
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal


The deck is a blast to play! It feels great to play draft cards (Braibs, Ophiomancer, Plague Spitter, Peat Bog, gods' Eye) and win against the hyperefficient combo decks ;)
The rounds were against Lands (2-1), Esper Stoneblade (2-0), Reanimator (2-1) and Aggro Loam (0-2).

I am unsure of the maindeck Revokers, but the rest performed admirably. I never needed the Toxic Deluges, but I guess that was more due to the matchups than them not being necessary. All the games against Lands and Reanimator were won via Helm-Line and I also boarded it in against Loam, but got outgrinded.

What would play instead of Revoker of main?

[square_two]

Quick aside: I just read about a cute interaction with Sundial of the Infinite and Smokestack. Would work with Braids as well. Has it ever been tested? I'm assuming it not playing well with Trinisphere and Chalice would be the greatest setback. And it not doing much of anything except when you have it out with Braids or Smokestack. And useless in multiples.

Looks like you could save City of Traitors from being sacrificed. Ditto with Mox Diamond. Combo with Phyrexian Dreadnaught? Probably way too cute.

For the record, you'd just be milling the opponent out. End your turn with your own sacrifice trigger(s) on the stack.

[owerbart]

Went 3-1 yesterday with German Bustamante's list, but as I only have 3 Toxic Deluges I swapped the one in the sideboard for a Night of Souls' Betrayal.

4 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Ophiomancer
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
3 Toxic Deluge
3 Trading Post
4 Trinisphere
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
2 Peat Bog
4 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

SB

1 Bottled Cloister
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Plague Spitter
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal


The deck is a blast to play! It feels great to play draft cards (Braibs, Ophiomancer, Plague Spitter, Peat Bog, gods' Eye) and win against the hyperefficient combo decks ;)
The rounds were against Lands (2-1), Esper Stoneblade (2-0), Reanimator (2-1) and Aggro Loam (0-2).

I am unsure of the maindeck Revokers, but the rest performed admirably. I never needed the Toxic Deluges, but I guess that was more due to the matchups than them not being necessary. All the games against Lands and Reanimator were won via Helm-Line and I also boarded it in against Loam, but got outgrinded.

I'm Germán Bustamante (they mispelled my last name xD)

Really happy for your results. Revokers main can be great to resucitate beaters, and also you'll have somewhere cool to name in each round. If you are lacking a 4th Deluge, you can always go with Perish or Engineered Plague, those cards are a blast to play against Token Decks. Right now I'm working on a 4-Post build where Revokers could shine a little bit more. Against Aggro Loam, you NEED to mulligan to the Leyline. Other way you will lose. (The matchup is pretty much in our favor if you get leyline down)

The card I'm really trying to get my hands in is Warping Wail, looks like it could be great vs so many decks. However due to the international purchasing politics here in Argentina, not a single shipment of Oath of The Gatewatch has arrived :(

[owerbart]

What would play instead of Revoker of main?

Bottled Cloisters usually occupy the spots that Revokers fill.

[owerbart]

Hi, on a quick note if anyone asks, I've played a huge amount of matches against the new Eldrazi deck and we completely outclass them, i'd even to say that I've never seen an easier matchup. They play no countermagic so all our stuff is good, the Stax lock hurts them so much and just a couple of wastelands on itself can shut their engine. Ensnaring Bridge is almost an auto-win unless they are running world breaker, and for them to play through Ophiomancer's tokens is just so clunky that it will give you the time to set up your next lockpieces. Post-board, just board out 4 Chalices and Trinis, and get in the full Helm-Void package. Things like engineered plague won't help you since they are going to be huge anyways.

[caprino]

Hi, on a quick note if anyone asks, I've played a huge amount of matches against the new Eldrazi deck and we completely outclass them, i'd even to say that I've never seen an easier matchup. They play no countermagic so all our stuff is good, the Stax lock hurts them so much and just a couple of wastelands on itself can shut their engine. Ensnaring Bridge is almost an auto-win unless they are running world breaker, and for them to play through Ophiomancer's tokens is just so clunky that it will give you the time to set up your next lockpieces. Post-board, just board out 4 Chalices and Trinis, and get in the full Helm-Void package. Things like engineered plague won't help you since they are going to be huge anyways.
Write me decklist and side you play in this moment. Thanks

[darkgh0st]

Hi owenbart. I was playing Eldrazi these past weeks. Not my kind of play style. Im off to completing this deck, picking up my 2nd and 3rd Crucibles. Gna pick the Helm package next. Having black compared to MUD Stax gives a lot of very useful options. I would like your updated list as well. Would you be able to update the primer? Thanks.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Hi, on a quick note if anyone asks, I've played a huge amount of matches against the new Eldrazi deck and we completely outclass them, i'd even to say that I've never seen an easier matchup. They play no countermagic so all our stuff is good, the Stax lock hurts them so much and just a couple of wastelands on itself can shut their engine. Ensnaring Bridge is almost an auto-win unless they are running world breaker, and for them to play through Ophiomancer's tokens is just so clunky that it will give you the time to set up your next lockpieces. Post-board, just board out 4 Chalices and Trinis, and get in the full Helm-Void package. Things like engineered plague won't help you since they are going to be huge anyways.

Yeah, Eldrazi's Achilles heel is basically any kind of prison deck. It auto-loses to Ensnaring Bridge and is very soft to Wastelock, Moon effects, and Smokestack.

[owerbart]

Hi owerbart,

I've been reading this forum as I was looking for a MUD stax splash black and found this very useful. Congratz on your success.

I'm a couple cards short of your list. The card that I find useful in this deck, maybe sideboard first as a trial, is Bearer of Silence.

thanks man!

Hello fellow Braidstaxers :) Sorry for the late response, I started a new job and was kinda out of time (i have a quick report however)

I was indeed testing Bearer of Silence this month. The card seems supersweet as a way to answer creatures, specially if you already locked them out but one dude managed to sneaked through your barriers. However, the more I tested it, the more it felt that a card that wanted to battle in an angle we weren't supposed to battle (combat). However it was excellent in post-board games where you board more creatures to try to establish a softlock and steal quick wins.

The other card I'm super-duper hyped up for is Tamiyo's Journal. 5 mana in this deck is a little bit different than 4, but the fact that it can itself feed to a stax effect or generate card advantage can be huge. However the big question is what to cut for it. Cloisters seem like the candidate, but i'd however still like the synergy they generate with bridge. Tamiyo's however has the ability that it doesn't interfere with Bridge, as we could just simply lay down the clue tokens and cash them in in the adequate moment.

Bridge was another kind of card i wished to cut to a two-off but the arise of Eldrazi decks makes them superstars right now.

@Caprino I'm still playing the same list as before, just with this sideboard:

4 leyline
4 helm
1 perish
2 bearer of silence
1 plague spitter
1 thorn of ametyst
2 phyrexian revoker

a quick report too:

R1: Eldrazi

G1 I have like the dream 7, T1 Trini, into T2 Braids, into T3 Ophio. My opponent makes the critical mistake of playing an eldrazi temple, so I already know that he's on the spaghetti monters.

out: 4 Chalices, 4 Trinis. In: 4 Leyline, 4 Helm

G2 isn't particularly close. I have leyline in my opener and ophiomancer stalls his army for enough time until I find helm and helm him out of the game

R2: Miracles
G1 he lands top and I have chalice in 1. A ophiomancer starts beating him while his counterbalance doesn't help him, so he has to setup a terminus for just 1 card. I land braids too and he starts throwing things into the chalice for mentor triggers. My first bridge gets FoWed but after a smokey joins braids and the mentor can't keep up, so my second bridge is good to go and he scoops, since i have God's Eye (MVP, creating tokens for blocking mentors) crucible, braids and smokey in 2 and his lone mentor can't keep up with it.

out 2 crucible, 1 trini, 1 mox, in 2 revoker, spitter, ametyst

G2 he ponder t1 and i have sweet chalice. he lands a t2 rest in peace (not a particularly good card against us, since only crucible depends on it and i usually take it out vs miracles) i have a t2 trini and t3 smokey. he lands a mentor but i just deluge it away. eventually a lone plague spitter finishes him off.

R3: Burning Reanimator.

G1: T1 trini is just disgusting for him. on his turn he just discards griselbrand and t2 he plays a badlands, so he gives me the free information that he's on the turbo plan. eventually he concedes to the tons of i hate i have.

out: 2 crucible, 2 trading post, 2 trading post, 3 toxic deluge, 2 bottled cloister, +4 leyline, +4 helm, +1 thorn, +2 revoker

G2: i mull to 6 that has leyline and a t1 chalice. i slam the leyline and he blurbs some insults so i know i have time. he burning wishes t2 for shattering spree, and he shatters my chalice and mox. great, since i have a trini in hand waiting to get deployed. a braids eats his few lands to take him back to 0 permanents, and like 6 turns later i helm him out.

too bad it was just 3 rounds though. bearer of silence is definitely a card i wish to have in my sideboard moving on.

due to the rise in thorns and chalices in eldrazi decks people are packing more artifact hate that hurts us, though. a pure value card that tamiyo's journal could be excellent.

what cards would you cut to make space, though?

[TLK]

Wouldn't Gatekeeper of Malakir just be better than Bearer if you're running Urborg? Not sure of your land configuration, but it's one less mana, albeit a bit more color intensive.

[square_two]

It's taken me about a week of fairly consistent online play to really get this deck down. Or start to, at least. The mulligan decisions can be really difficult, as well as the lines of play for land drops. Several times I've screwed myself by using Wasteland too early and then not getting to 4 mana. The rewarding early locks come fairly often enough though.

I tried a version initially very similar to owerbart, with Trading Posts, Bottled Cloister, and Wasteland/Crucible package. I feel like we really do have a strong game against grindy matchups - eventually we will land a stax effect plus the ability to continually feed it. This made me feel like the Trading Posts were a bit unnecessary. Perhaps it is my limited experience, but I found that Wasteland/Crucible also weren't the most effective. Too many times I really hated to lose land drops, even if there has been the occasional lock just from those two pieces alone. It also does make graveyard hate more effective against us, even if it is a small percent. Again, it could be that I've only had a week or so of daily leagues.

Here is what I'm experimenting with now. I've just switched to it from a build with Crucible/Bridge/Bitterblossom/Jitte and it is further down the Human/Jitte aggro plan.

4 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Mardu Strike Leader
4 Ophiomancer
4 Dark Confidant

3 Smokestack
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Bitterblossom
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Liliana of the Viel
3 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Tomb of Urami
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
6 Swamp

SB
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Helm of Obedience
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Trinisphere
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Ensnaring Bridge

The Dark Confidant idea came from the Demon Stompy thread, and it just might be crazy enough to work. Yes, there is the potential for some pain, but it is a cheaper version of the constant card draw that something like Bottled Cloister gives, but this can be uncounterable and can carry a Jitte as well as attack in. Decks with counterspells really try a lot to kill this guy or counter him. Plus there are plenty of ways in this list to sacrifice him in case things get risky.

I have tried Eureka Order and Sylvan Plug type decks, with stompy lock pieces, and in green there is a huge jump in deck power once you get Sylvan Library online. Heck, especially more in the Sylvan Plug area, once you add in Green Sun's Zenith and Courser, your card selection goes way up and it is an amazing compliment to the lock pieces already in play. I'm hoping that Bob will be able to provide a similar boost here. All we sometimes need is to draw a stax effect or something to repetitively sac to it.

So far I'm satisfied with the Strike Leader, his dash is unexpected for sure. Needs more testing for him in particular.

List like this is most likely better suited to deal with creature decks - if I find myself really struggling with Eldrazi or other decks where Bridge shines then I'll have to rethink some things. Elves at least, seem to just ignore Bridge with Rec Sage and then I die. Hoping the Jitte + 3 Deluges will help here.

Nice to see this discussion ongoing.

[darkgh0st]

The rest of my missing pieces are coming in the mail next week. I have an LGS invitational that Im bringing Braids Stax to. Hoping to make it.

[Wotkenmendo]

square_two I saw your match against Joe! As soon as Bitterblossom was cast my eyes widened. Then to realize it was in fact this deck I was quite amused. I supported most of your decisions though I felt you could've played a bit more aggressive (the idea of your version to some degree) and ticked up the Smokestack to 3 when facing down the angels, possibly try to reset the game. Of course I was watching from Joe's perspective and you probably had good reasons.

I love Bitterblossom but for me I think it's best as a one of main or some in the board, as I am playing a list closer to Germán's. Trading post being decay-proof and non-creature is a big plus for me in my meta. I am back to including Liliana despite the lack of synergy with Chalice. She does provide occasionally needed synergy with Bridge while buying us time or killing stuff. With her inclusion I am going to risk excluding Toxic Deluge from the main. I'm also going to try running a few fetches to compliment Crucible, also opening up the possibility of a Bayou for a Sylvan Library/Abrupt Decay of our own (or Underground Sea for Meditate!?). I'm not worried about Stifle but Port can make us look foolish sometimes and fetches help there (I see a lot of Lands/DnT). Will know more after more testing.

4 Smokestack
4 Ophiomancer
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere

3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Braids, Cabal Minion
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trading Post

2 Crucible of Worlds

1 Nether Void

4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Bloodstained Mire
6 Swamp
1 Mishra's Factory
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Helm of Obedience
1 The Abyss
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Engineered Plague
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Tsabo's Web

[square_two]

Ah, nice! I didn't realize who I was playing against, and if I remember correctly, the miracles player seemed to be unusually quick about setting up the Countertop lock. I haven't come across too many Miracles matches online where they get it up so fast. Usually Miracles matches revolve around 1 lock piece (chalice or sphere) plus sac outlet plus stax effect, gg. I may have punted my game 2 (if I'm remembering correctly) by not hammering out a T1 Chalice on 1. I had lands, Chalice, Mox, Braids, Strike Leader in hand I believe, and I did not want to lose either of those pieces. I groaned a bit when he T1 Top. I need to keep in mind that leading with chalice would have protected any other creatures I played from Swords.

I've been thinking about cutting my single Toxic from the main - since I'm so creature heavy it might not be as effective for me. I'd love to experiment with Nether Void (though I also groan at the thought of buying one in paper). I may also drop a land in favor of another lock piece, I seem to be flooding out often...will probably wait until I get more feeling for that.

[square_two]

https://i.imgur.com/StxuaFc.jpg

New card spoiled for SoI.

I could see this as a 1 or 2-of for the decks that choose to not run Crucible. I wouldn't mind getting a single stax effect out plus this land while I'm waiting for more action to be drawn. Not sure if the Wasteland/Crucible versions would really need to bother though.

[Esper3k]

For those of you guys who play the Helm package in the board, what matchups are you bringing it in against? The only one I could think of where I'd really want it is vs Lands / Aggro Loam where the opponent has as many permanents as we do, but they can't really stop Helm.

[square_two]

For those of you guys who play the Helm package in the board, what matchups are you bringing it in against? The only one I could think of where I'd really want it is vs Lands / Aggro Loam where the opponent has as many permanents as we do, but they can't really stop Helm.

Anything using the graveyard I think is fairly obvious - Reanimator, Dredge. I side into the combo also against anything where both Trinisphere and Chalice are not very good, like various stompy decks. I usually cut down on Smokestacks (since they take an extra turn to get going), Jittes, and couple of token makers (like Bitterblossom) if I'm up against Storm. I want to be as quickly disruptive as possible and Smokestacks is a tad slow there. Sneak n Show I also try to put the combo in, since it ups our speed and Trinisphere isn't as hot here. I want to live the dream and put in Helm off of a Show and Tell and win that way - came very close to doing that last night :tongue:

But yes, Lands and Loam are good for the combo, plus you don't want to just die to recurring Wastelands.

I have been very hesitant to side it in against regular blue decks like Delver, Shardless, etc. I might put in a few Leyline of the Void if they seem very heavy on Goyfs and Gurmag Angler etc. Most blue decks I just try to grind out. Although the combo is tempting most of the time :smile:

I enjoy hearing others' thoughts though.

[owerbart]

Personally I used to board it in against Loam decks and other Graveyard dependant decks like Reanimator or Dredge. But over the time I got used to board it in against anything not packing blue. It's great in grindy Stax mirrors since it can give you a kill out of nowhere, and also against things like Goblins which is also a poor matchup. I don't bring it in vs DnT due to Revokers and Maverick because of the tutorable Qasali.

Helms on their own are a beast against Sneak and Show >:)

Also against things like Eldrazi where you already have a favorable matchup, you can side in 4 Chalice and 4 Trinis for the whole combo package, because they'll do more than the lockpieces.

Currently I'm getting my laptop fixed and I'm writing from an old spare netbook, but when I get my gear back I'll probably update the Primer and do a Matchup-Guide.

I've always been a fan of course that can recourse themselves and Drownyard temple really catches my eye. The only problem is that it requires a full 3 mana to keep feeding it (Crucible and Ophio are free, T. Post costs only 1) and DRS can interact pretty easily with it.

[owerbart]

The rest of my missing pieces are coming in the mail next week. I have an LGS invitational that Im bringing Braids Stax to. Hoping to make it.

Tell us how did you do!

[owerbart]

Quick aside: I just read about a cute interaction with Sundial of the Infinite and Smokestack. Would work with Braids as well. Has it ever been tested? I'm assuming it not playing well with Trinisphere and Chalice would be the greatest setback. And it not doing much of anything except when you have it out with Braids or Smokestack. And useless in multiples.

Looks like you could save City of Traitors from being sacrificed. Ditto with Mox Diamond. Combo with Phyrexian Dreadnaught? Probably way too cute.

For the record, you'd just be milling the opponent out. End your turn with your own sacrifice trigger(s) on the stack.

Sundial of the infinite is indeed a sweet card, but the main problem I find with that card is that it works well only with Smokestack (Braids is quicker but can't multiply itself like smokey does), and has zero synergy with the rest of the deck. Also in an actual tournament environment Sundial is way too slow to win a game, let alone a match. And against Emrakul decks where they can't mill themselves the card is dead. Also it doesn't work with Mox Diamond, because of the errata it has: If you don't discard a card, Mox won't even enter the battlefield

[darkgh0st]

Tell us how did you do!

Super Games Inc. screwed up my order. The deck didn't make it for the tourney. =(

[owerbart]

Sorry to hear that Darkgh0st :(

I'll try to update the OP tomorrow, and maybe write a matchup guide.

[owerbart]

Primer updated

[owerbart]

Apparently someone named Jeff Chen ran Braids Stax in the a GPT. If someone can contact him fir him to tell us his experience, that would be great!

[hofzge]

Here is his deck:
http://asgardgames.net/category/magic-the-gathering/

I like the try to run as many Lilianas as possible even if Trading Post is easier to cast. The 4th Liliana might be a bit overkill and could be better of something a bit more gentle on the mana:

How about:
Artifact
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Crucible of Worlds
4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Mox Diamond
3x Smokestack
3x Trinisphere

4x Braids, Cabal Minion
4x Ophiomancer

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
4x City of Traitors
6x Swamp
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland

3x Warping Wail

3x Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
4x Helm of Obedience
4x Leyline of the Void
1x The Abyss
3x Toxic Deluge
1x Trinisphere
1x Warping Wail

This is very basic and I am unsure of how good the Warping Wails are. I played them in Eldrazi and they were always ok, but seldomly great. Here they have the advantage of handling Deathrite Shaman, which is one of the most annoying and devastating creatures if you try to lock your opponent out of the game.

[Esper3k]

Apparently someone named Jeff Chen ran Braids Stax in the a GPT. If someone can contact him fir him to tell us his experience, that would be great!

Hah that was me. Scrubbed out at 0-2 drop, although I usually do pretty decently at our local Legacy events (usually 12-20 players). I don't know if you looked at the meta, but it was about 15% D&T.

Lost to Burn in r1. Opponent had Fireblast and maindeck Sulfuric Vortex to get through my Trinisphere, Chalice @1 & 2 in g1. I won g2 off of Leyline / Helm. He got G3 off of Smash to Smithereens + PoP.

Lost to D&T in r2. I got g1 with triple Ensnaring Bridge (with plenty of lands to cast anything I drew). Let my opponent know I was going to deck him if he didn't concede the game, so he scooped. G2 I mulled to 4, still almost got there. G3 I was about to lock the game out but he hit every land drop of either plains or Flagstones and had just enough mana to play Mirran Crusader then equip a Batterskull on it. I couldn't find Bridge or Virtue's Ruin in time.

I still love the deck overall and would play it in a large event again, but our meta just has too much D&T right now for me to really feel comfortable unless I pack my board with more hate.

[Esper3k]

Here is his deck:
http://asgardgames.net/category/magic-the-gathering/

I like the try to run as many Lilianas as possible even if Trading Post is easier to cast. The 4th Liliana might be a bit overkill and could be better of something a bit more gentle on the mana:

How about:
Artifact
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Crucible of Worlds
4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Mox Diamond
3x Smokestack
3x Trinisphere

4x Braids, Cabal Minion
4x Ophiomancer

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
4x City of Traitors
6x Swamp
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland

3x Warping Wail

3x Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
4x Helm of Obedience
4x Leyline of the Void
1x The Abyss
3x Toxic Deluge
1x Trinisphere
1x Warping Wail

This is very basic and I am unsure of how good the Warping Wails are. I played them in Eldrazi and they were always ok, but seldomly great. Here they have the advantage of handling Deathrite Shaman, which is one of the most annoying and devastating creatures if you try to lock your opponent out of the game.

Warping Wail has been amazing for me. As you said, it kills DRS, which is a huge problem creature for us, but also gets Bob and Pyromancer. It makes our combo matchup (which was already good before), even better, and even generates us a permanent in a pinch if we need it!

[owerbart]

I tried warping wail but eventually the card didnt convince me. It just felt too reactive for a deck that wants to have proactive disruption. The the sorcery counterspell was its biggest selling point but was in my testing the one i used the most, different try by him with the toxics in the sideboard.

I would probably cut the Warping wails fir the 4th smokestack and 2 trading posts, to better the engine.

Still props to him for trying the deck!

[owerbart]

Also jeff did you bord the helm kill vs DNT?

[Esper3k]

Also jeff did you bord the helm kill vs DNT?

No, I left it out because Thalia + Revoker + their mana disruption makes it tough for us to get down a 4 mana artifact was my reasoning.

I boarded:

-3 Trinisphere
-2 Chalice

+1 Liliana
+1 Warping Wail
+2 Engineered Plague
+1 Virtue's Ruin

I'm not a huge fan of Deluge since we tend to take a lot of damage from getting beat up + Ancient Tombs so I just play a split of Perish / Virtue's Ruin instead.

[shadowgripper]

Hey Jeff, what do you feel is the weakest or least influential card in your take on the deck? Or list a couple of cards if one doesn't stand out.

For example, chalice is great in many matchups so it tends to always be powerful, but maybe lily under performs in some matchups but excels in others?

[owerbart]

Hey guys, matchup guide in first page updated

[Esper3k]

Hey Jeff, what do you feel is the weakest or least influential card in your take on the deck? Or list a couple of cards if one doesn't stand out.

For example, chalice is great in many matchups so it tends to always be powerful, but maybe lily under performs in some matchups but excels in others?

It depends on the matchup for me.

Trinisphere isn't very good against DRS decks or decks that have a lot of lands, especially when you're on the draw, for example.

Crucible and Ophiomancer suck vs combo, etc.

Smokestack can be too slow vs aggressive / creature heavy decks.

Btw, I believe D&T is a poor matchup for us. Any deck that has a lot of permanents like they do is bad because when we are in attrition mode, they can keep up with us (or get ahead with SFM, Aether Vial, Flagstones) in terms of Permanent advantage. Aether Vial also lets them accelerate out more permanents and get around Chalice / Trinisphere. Flickerwisp resets counters on Chalice / Smokestack, lets them alpha in vs Bridge. Thalia / mana disruption hurts us because like any Stompy deck, our lands are fairly fragile.

[owerbart]

It depends on the matchup for me.

Trinisphere isn't very good against DRS decks or decks that have a lot of lands, especially when you're on the draw, for example.

Crucible and Ophiomancer suck vs combo, etc.

Smokestack can be too slow vs aggressive / creature heavy decks.

Btw, I believe D&T is a poor matchup for us. Any deck that has a lot of permanents like they do is bad because when we are in attrition mode, they can keep up with us (or get ahead with SFM, Aether Vial, Flagstones) in terms of Permanent advantage. Aether Vial also lets them accelerate out more permanents and get around Chalice / Trinisphere. Flickerwisp resets counters on Chalice / Smokestack, lets them alpha in vs Bridge. Thalia / mana disruption hurts us because like any Stompy deck, our lands are fairly fragile.

I respectfully disagree. At least from what I played DnT is a very manageable matchup, even favorable. TradingPost is amazing against them, and having toxics main help a lot. They have no card advantage whatsoever, so i've been finding quite easy to execute the attrition plan against them.

I'd gladly play this deck if my meta was infested with DnT.

[Esper3k]

I respectfully disagree. At least from what I played DnT is a very manageable matchup, even favorable. TradingPost is amazing against them, and having toxics main help a lot. They have no card advantage whatsoever, so i've been finding quite easy to execute the attrition plan against them.

I'd gladly play this deck if my meta was infested with DnT.

Interesting that you have a very different experience than I do. I'm curious how others have felt in the matchup.

What about Trading Post do you find so amazing in that matchup? None of the modes really do much against them on top of it being a 4 mana artifact that they can Revoker.

Maindeck Deluge will be great against them, I agree.

They actually have some card advantage in the form of SFM (getting to make a Germ every turn to sacrifice), Flagstones to sacrifice, Revokers turning off things like Liliana (or Trading Post), Thalia + mana disruption to shut out our higher cost cards. On top of that, they play almost as many permanents as we do, so each draw they have feeds to sacrificing.

Braids is even iffy against them since Karakas is horrible if we don't have a Wasteland for it.

[owerbart]

Interesting that you have a very different experience than I do. I'm curious how others have felt in the matchup.

What about Trading Post do you find so amazing in that matchup? None of the modes really do much against them on top of it being a 4 mana artifact that they can Revoker.

Maindeck Deluge will be great against them, I agree.

They actually have some card advantage in the form of SFM (getting to make a Germ every turn to sacrifice), Flagstones to sacrifice, Revokers turning off things like Liliana (or Trading Post), Thalia + mana disruption to shut out our higher cost cards. On top of that, they play almost as many permanents as we do, so each draw they have feeds to sacrificing.

Braids is even iffy against them since Karakas is horrible if we don't have a Wasteland for it.

T. Post plays a jack of all trades kind of game, making chumpblockers, feeding stax or just gaining life. I could see a list with no Toxics main having a harder time, but overall my experience against them was simply to drop bridge, put a stax effect online and just wait till they die. If they are running high on permanents, you can just tick stax higher. Flickerwisp is the only card that you really care about, and the best way I found to play around it is to preemptively deluging their board so they can't alpha strike you. I wrote my notes for the matchup in the first page. The Waste+Port game they play is only good if they have a vial to back it up, and the moment you hit crucible you are going to eventually waste them away.

And about them playing as many permanents as we do, they will still draw a card (that permanent) for the turn. Which means that if their whole drawstep is nullified by the stax effect, we are in good shape.

[hofzge]

T. Post plays a jack of all trades kind of game, making chumpblockers, feeding stax or just gaining life.

I like Liliana way more than Trading Post as she only costs 3. She does make you change your manabase quite a bit, but i think overall she has many upsides like killing creature when you need to, also being relevant against combo and having an ultimate that totally locks the game with any for of Stax effect.

Sure: I am comparing apples to cars, but I like Liliana more and think somethink like 3 Liliana and 1 Trading Post would be a sensible split.

[square_two]

I like Liliana way more than Trading Post as she only costs 3. She does make you change your manabase quite a bit, but i think overall she has many upsides like killing creature when you need to, also being relevant against combo and having an ultimate that totally locks the game with any for of Stax effect.

Sure: I am comparing apples to cars, but I like Liliana more and think somethink like 3 Liliana and 1 Trading Post would be a sensible split.

Might be able to shave 1 Ensnaring Bridge for another Trading post, or just have a flex spot. I've grown to appreciate Mardu Strike Leader. The dash can be sneaky sometimes :cool:

4 Ensnaring Bridge is nice to help find faster, and multiple means you might be decay-safe, but it can sure be clunky having multiple in hand when you don't need it.

[square_two]

Hey all. Found this list on mtggoldfish and found it pretty interesting (credit to user Plainness). Link (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/402092#online).

Basically it is Sylvan Plug but with Tireless Tracker + Smokestack. Plenty of ways to get lands back, and for each land drop you get a token to sacrifice to the Engine. Seems a bit untuned but the Tracker synergy could be nice. And hey, any additional card draw source is always a big positive in Stompy. Sometimes you just have to dig one or two cards deeper to find something you need.

Big plus is that the guy is a Human, so he works well with the 4-Cavern versions of Braids stax. If 4 Smokestack effects are nice, how about the full 8? :laugh:

Potential idea here for a BG Braids Stax version. Removing maindeck Toxic Deluges (since we are more creature heavy now) for Lilianas and Abrupt Decays. Decays could be a huge boon for us. Shedding Wasteland+Crucible combo for the BG landbase since we want to be consistently making land drops. Might as well have Sylvan Library if we are green, that is also a huge source of advantage (or just stick with Bottled Cloisters since that works much better with Bridge). Tracker here is sort of like Ophiomancer, easy to remove but has potential to allow the Engine to flow as well as grindy card draw when we need it.

Probably don't need full 28 mana sources since we don't have Wastelands, but I wasn't sure which (probably 1) land to cut. Maybe go down to 3 Moxes and add...something. I really like the idea of Drownyard Temple in a deck without Crucible. Tracker + Drownyard Temple by itself allows Smokey to be at 2 easily (granted you have 3 mana available).

Haven't retooled sideboard much in light of green splash, but there are good options. How would you like to run Tsunami in stax??? I know I would. Would be huge against Shardless where Chalice is mediocre and they can quickly outvalue and overwhelm us. And probably better against Miracles than Trinisphere (which seems less ideal without Wastelands).

21
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library

11
4 Ophiomancer
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Braids, Cabal Minion

28
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Drownyard Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
4 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

side:
4 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Plague Spitter
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Toxic Deluge

I'd like to test this online, but I'm kinda annoyed Tracker is around 8 tix or so.

Edit: I think -1 Mox Diamond, +1 Garruk Relentless could work. Still have 16 (20 for creatures) black sources. 13 (17 for creatures) green sources. Might try Garruk as additional small creature killer and token producer, I've been really in favor of him in some other stompy lists I've been running.

[HNana]

I've been having issues with delver/young pyro decks and decks that can cast a jace. Is there anything in particular you guys recommend, I'm using the generic list owerbart runs.

[Esper3k]

I think with Tireless Tracker, you want Crucible or Life from the Loam to make sure you keep hitting your land drop every turn with it out.

Against the Delver decks, I think DRS (which attacks our graveyard, gets around Ensnaring Bridge, generates them more mana to counter our mana denial) and Pyromancer (quickly generates many permanents to sacrifice to our Stax effects) are the biggest threats.

Other than that, land heavy hands are stronger since they're going to Daze / Wasteland you.

[fullmetal030]

Hey all. Found this list on mtggoldfish and found it pretty interesting (credit to user Plainness). Link (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/402092#online).

Basically it is Sylvan Plug but with Tireless Tracker + Smokestack. Plenty of ways to get lands back, and for each land drop you get a token to sacrifice to the Engine. Seems a bit untuned but the Tracker synergy could be nice. And hey, any additional card draw source is always a big positive in Stompy. Sometimes you just have to dig one or two cards deeper to find something you need.

Big plus is that the guy is a Human, so he works well with the 4-Cavern versions of Braids stax. If 4 Smokestack effects are nice, how about the full 8? :laugh:

Potential idea here for a BG Braids Stax version. Removing maindeck Toxic Deluges (since we are more creature heavy now) for Lilianas and Abrupt Decays. Decays could be a huge boon for us. Shedding Wasteland+Crucible combo for the BG landbase since we want to be consistently making land drops. Might as well have Sylvan Library if we are green, that is also a huge source of advantage (or just stick with Bottled Cloisters since that works much better with Bridge). Tracker here is sort of like Ophiomancer, easy to remove but has potential to allow the Engine to flow as well as grindy card draw when we need it.

Probably don't need full 28 mana sources since we don't have Wastelands, but I wasn't sure which (probably 1) land to cut. Maybe go down to 3 Moxes and add...something. I really like the idea of Drownyard Temple in a deck without Crucible. Tracker + Drownyard Temple by itself allows Smokey to be at 2 easily (granted you have 3 mana available).

Haven't retooled sideboard much in light of green splash, but there are good options. How would you like to run Tsunami in stax??? I know I would. Would be huge against Shardless where Chalice is mediocre and they can quickly outvalue and overwhelm us. And probably better against Miracles than Trinisphere (which seems less ideal without Wastelands).

21
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library

11
4 Ophiomancer
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Braids, Cabal Minion

28
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Drownyard Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
4 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

side:
4 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Plague Spitter
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Toxic Deluge

I'd like to test this online, but I'm kinda annoyed Tracker is around 8 tix or so.

Edit: I think -1 Mox Diamond, +1 Garruk Relentless could work. Still have 16 (20 for creatures) black sources. 13 (17 for creatures) green sources. Might try Garruk as additional small creature killer and token producer, I've been really in favor of him in some other stompy lists I've been running.

Was not a fan after I decided to test this online. I can tell you that the plug version with some tweaks was great. Tracker in that shell was just bonkers. But in all honesty Ive had way more success with mono black over the green splash.

[Scopeye]

Has anyone tried some whitesplash? There are enough non-creature spells to feed monastery mentor, even without braids/stack it can help hold the board or add a nice clock. And Thalia can be very annoying and a good blocker as well.

4 Braids, Cabal Minion
3 Ophiomancer
4 thalia
3 monastery mentor

2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Diamond
2 Bottled Cloister

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Scrubland
1 karakas
1 God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai
4 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

[Bosque]

I feel like there are so many non-creature spells that Thalia is not a great match to pair with Mentor. With that mana base I'd probably run Lodestone Golem before I would run Thalia.


Has anyone tried some whitesplash? There are enough non-creature spells to feed monastery mentor, even without braids/stack it can help hold the board or add a nice clock. And Thalia can be very annoying and a good blocker as well.

4 Braids, Cabal Minion
3 Ophiomancer
4 thalia
3 monastery mentor

2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Diamond
2 Bottled Cloister

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Scrubland
1 karakas
1 God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai
4 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

[square_two]

Was not a fan after I decided to test this online. I can tell you that the plug version with some tweaks was great. Tracker in that shell was just bonkers. But in all honesty Ive had way more success with mono black over the green splash.

I would love to hear what tweaks you tried with the Sylvan Plug version. That deck looks like a lot of fun.

Was the green splash really that bad online? I've tried a lot of Braids Stax and other stompy lists and I'll say that green is by far the best color - Library plus fetches is so important for seeing more cards, and I can't help but think that Abrupt Decays go a long way as well (too bad green sun's zenith isn't good here). Sometimes killing an early goyf or delver is all the breathing room you need to get pieces in place - and Deluge can just be too painful sometimes, at least without Baloth or Rhino to gain back life.

Maybe the Liliana's could go in order to reduce the color requirements. 4th Decay, 3rd Library might work.

@Scopeye:

Mentor...I could -kind of- see. Looks so darn funky in a list with Trinisphere though. I think for creature/fuel slots, we really want stuff that just starts growing on its own. Opiomancer is simply superb, but Mardu Strike Leader also gets the job done (providing he can attack in ). I agree that Thalia is just a bigger nonbo - everything you need to jam is going to be more costly, and if your opponent is Wastelanding you or disrupting in other ways, it will compound the negative effect.

Sorin, Lord of Innistrad is also great card to splash white for - although there is no Cavern synergy there.

I wonder what other token producers are unexplored though...Icatian Crier? Pack Rat probably better. Jade Mage. Teysa, Orzhov Scion is humorous with Ophiomancer. Ok, I'm cringing at these. If you want to go more creatures, I'd say try the Bitterblossom/Dark Confidant/Umezawa's Jitte version. Good cards on their own, it's the consistency we need without having access to good card draw/filter.

[owerbart]

Hi, sorry for not replying before, i was on a trip!

Going for white splash was something i thought in the very first iterations of the deck, although not put as much thought on it as you guys. I think a great card you could splash white for is Armageddon. If you want more token producers, I've had a pretty good experience with Pack Rat, mostly because it is an engine in itself, and unlike other token generators, it can multiply itself, so it's quite resilient. However, you would need to change the manabase in order to have a constant Black mana feed.

[square_two]

Hi, sorry for not replying before, i was on a trip!

Going for white splash was something i thought in the very first iterations of the deck, although not put as much thought on it as you guys. I think a great card you could splash white for is Armageddon. If you want more token producers, I've had a pretty good experience with Pack Rat, mostly because it is an engine in itself, and unlike other token generators, it can multiply itself, so it's quite resilient. However, you would need to change the manabase in order to have a constant Black mana feed.

What do you feel are the matches we struggle the most against, owerbart?

I can check my excel sheet once I get home - I keep track of all my online matches and can reference my history playing different versions of Braids Stax in the past several months. I've a feeling that storm and miracles tend to be easier, storm being almost a bye due to the large and quick amounts of hate we have mainboard. Miracles struggles with both Chalice and Stax effects - landing either Bitterblossom or Smokestack and they have a very hard time answering it. Ensnaring Bridge heavy versions of our deck tend to have an easier time against Reanimator and Sneak/Show, possibly Eldrazi (Eldrazi lot better if you are running both Bridge and Wasteland). Reanimator and graveyard strategies additionally kept in check due to having Leyline/Helm combo in the side.

The primary reason for splashing, in my opinion, is going to be to increase consistency/card advantage/card selection. It's about the one thing really holding us back. There are times when it's "well I lost since my stuff just doesn't affect them" like against Elves (not drawing Deluge, and ugh the times they seem to be fine even after Chalice/Sphere) but 90% of the time it's "my own draws aren't lining up".

How can we shore up our selection? I'm thinking that green may have the best tool in Sylvan Library.

I've tried Dark Confidant and he may warrant more testing - the aggro human shell was certainly interesting. Plucky guy drew a lot of counters/hate so that lock pieces could come down.

owerbart, you've probably played the most with Bottled Cloister in here - am I undervaluing it? I admit I haven't played much with it, but it is a source of advantage. I just keep thinking that I'd rather have something that comes down sooner. Trading Post just seems conditionally good - if you have the resources to utilize it then I think you are already ahead.

I'm wondering if it is worth it to cut the Caverns and have some Libraries. I'm so much more annoyed/afraid at not having what I need than for Ophio or Braids to be countered. Using your list on the first page primer, you could replace 2 Trading Posts and 1 Cloister with 3 Sylvan Libraries.

Change the manabase to something like...
4 Mox Diamond
3 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
5 fetches
2 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Maybe I'm just spinning my wheels. Columbus is a month away and I still haven't settled on a deck for it yet, and I've had a string of sub-par results on legacy leagues lately. I'm not going to commit to 9 matches in a day if the deck I'm playing isn't going to be consistent. 2-2 right now in a league using that Tracker Stax/Sylvan Plug list. Tracker + Stax is indeed a great pair. Had a deathblade player concede while he was at 45 life and me at 1 life, thanks to 2 Smokestacks blowing the board (and his Batterskull/SFM) and then me drawing lands into Trinisphere, with Loam/wastelands available in my grave.

[owerbart]

What do you feel are the matches we struggle the most against, owerbart?

I can check my excel sheet once I get home - I keep track of all my online matches and can reference my history playing different versions of Braids Stax in the past several months. I've a feeling that storm and miracles tend to be easier, storm being almost a bye due to the large and quick amounts of hate we have mainboard. Miracles struggles with both Chalice and Stax effects - landing either Bitterblossom or Smokestack and they have a very hard time answering it. Ensnaring Bridge heavy versions of our deck tend to have an easier time against Reanimator and Sneak/Show, possibly Eldrazi (Eldrazi lot better if you are running both Bridge and Wasteland). Reanimator and graveyard strategies additionally kept in check due to having Leyline/Helm combo in the side.

The primary reason for splashing, in my opinion, is going to be to increase consistency/card advantage/card selection. It's about the one thing really holding us back. There are times when it's "well I lost since my stuff just doesn't affect them" like against Elves (not drawing Deluge, and ugh the times they seem to be fine even after Chalice/Sphere) but 90% of the time it's "my own draws aren't lining up".

How can we shore up our selection? I'm thinking that green may have the best tool in Sylvan Library.

I've tried Dark Confidant and he may warrant more testing - the aggro human shell was certainly interesting. Plucky guy drew a lot of counters/hate so that lock pieces could come down.

owerbart, you've probably played the most with Bottled Cloister in here - am I undervaluing it? I admit I haven't played much with it, but it is a source of advantage. I just keep thinking that I'd rather have something that comes down sooner. Trading Post just seems conditionally good - if you have the resources to utilize it then I think you are already ahead.

I'm wondering if it is worth it to cut the Caverns and have some Libraries. I'm so much more annoyed/afraid at not having what I need than for Ophio or Braids to be countered. Using your list on the first page primer, you could replace 2 Trading Posts and 1 Cloister with 3 Sylvan Libraries.

Change the manabase to something like...
4 Mox Diamond
3 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
5 fetches
2 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Maybe I'm just spinning my wheels. Columbus is a month away and I still haven't settled on a deck for it yet, and I've had a string of sub-par results on legacy leagues lately. I'm not going to commit to 9 matches in a day if the deck I'm playing isn't going to be consistent. 2-2 right now in a league using that Tracker Stax/Sylvan Plug list. Tracker + Stax is indeed a great pair. Had a deathblade player concede while he was at 45 life and me at 1 life, thanks to 2 Smokestacks blowing the board (and his Batterskull/SFM) and then me drawing lands into Trinisphere, with Loam/wastelands available in my grave.

Bottled Cloister has been pretty good for me specially against the deck that we struggle the most: Decay/Loam decks since most of them don't have agreat way to stop Cloister as a source of advantage. In all the matches I've played I can recall only one time my opponent taking the cloister away and me losing my cards.

About the green splash, I just don't see it. Already playing a mono-color version you are already cutting edges to make sure you have available black mana, with two colors that has to be even worse, also making you much more weak to wasteland. The other problem I had with Library was that only against deck that don't pressure your life you will be able to get juice from it, and also because of how redundant this deck is, having 3 card-selection and life paying with library over blinddrawing two a turn with cloister doesn't look that nice. I tried tireless tracker a little bit and although I'm not expert in the BG lists I wasn't able to get a lot of value from him because I wasn't able to guarantee myself a land-drop every turn.

About Caverns, I know a lot of people don't like to play with them, and i agree that if you want to splash a second color you should probably forego them, but sneaking an ophiomancer/braids through dazes and fows saved too many games to cut them.

About your manabase, i would NEVER, EVER cut any of the 8 sol lands. The first-turns acceleration mana is what will tell you how good a hand can be.

Also, I took 2nd in a 5 round tournament today; little report:

R1: Elves

G1: My opponent opens on bayou->DRS, and I have the T1 chalice, followed by a quick smokestack and crucible. He manages to sneak a natural order for behemoth but he can't swing for lethal. I just tick smokey up in my turn, waste him away and it's game over.

in: 2 Perish, 2 Plague Spitter, 1 Revoker
out: 2 Trading Post, 3 Ophiomancer

G2: He opens with a very weak hand, T1 Dryad go. I respond with a T1 Trinisphere. I have an ophiomancer to stop some beats and feed Smokestack, but when he commits too much of a board i just deluge it away and smokey finishes the job.

R2: Eldrazi

G1: I mull to 5 on the play. I play tomb go, and he plays Eye-Go. I guess he is going for the T2 TKS so i hide my hand behind a cloister, and then an ophiomancer stops his army while Smokey eats his permanents. He has a phyrexian mimic to copy my cloister, but my deck has more answers to his stuff than he has for mine. Eventually I stabilize at 4 life with a Trini, Smokey, Crucible against him with zero permanents.

in: 4 Leyline, 4 Helm
out: 4 chalice, 4 Trini

G2: I keep a pretty good seven with a T2 Ophiomancer, T3 smokestack. eventually he makes a small army and the mimic copies my ophiomancer so i'm not nuking his permanents, although he's somewhat screwed on mana, while i have plenty and 3 more lands in my hand. I waste a tomb, and in response he dismembers my ophiomancer and warping wails my snake token, which turns out pretty good for me since my deluge + a smokestack sends him to stone age. Eventually i swipe his board and he concedes after i land a bridge

R3: Elves

G1: We both mull to 6 with me on the draw. I have a t2 trini, followed it up with a Toxic Deluge after he fetches for dryads, and Braids finishes the job.

sideboard same as before

G2: I keep a sketchy 7, which turns out to be pretty good since i draw the black mana i needed. I have Chalice, Trini, Smokey, and plague spitter.

R4: UR Delver

G1 My T2 trini gets forced and I'm always behind until he burns me for exactsies.

in: 1 Thorn of Ametyst
out: 1 Crucible of Worlds

G2: T1 Trini, i have the smokey and T. Post. He never gets to play a spell.

G3: He opens up with island go. My t1 thorn sticks, so does my T3 Trini, but he lands a quick swiftspear and I can't find answers, while he PoPs me out of nowhere for a lot. I feel I could've played this game a tad bit sharply than i did, specially with my smokestack/chalice setups.


R5: Lands

G1: He is on the play and has T1 Manabond + Ports and Loam. I never achieve a lot in this game, other than landing a T. Post but Marit Lage kills me.

in: 4 Leyline 4 Helm
out: 4 Ophiomancer , 3 Toxic Deluge, 1 Braids

G2: I have a T1 crucible and set the chalice on 2. He crop rotates TWICE for Rishadan Ports, but I'm able to land a Leyline. In his turn he taps out for making Marit Lage in his turn and play around a wasteland, but his ports free my mana and I'm able to Helm him out of the game.

G3: I have the T0 leyline and by the looks of his face it's going to pull some weight. He plays fetch go, I play waste. He wastes my waste in my turn, and lays down a Mox. I play Swamp. Eventually i have Swamp + Tomb and City being ported. I have more land but I keep them in my hand to pair with moxes. Eventually I manage to land a Bridge and a Trini through the ports. In my EoT he K-Grips the bridge, and on his turn he once again makes the Marit Lage Token. Same song and dance, now he isn't porting me anymore, and I'm free to cast and activate my Helm.

/report

Back on topic: I feel like Cloisters were super good today when they mattered. Given the fact that you will need the same ammounts of mana ratio to make something out of Tracker, I think you can give it a try.

[square_two]

Thanks owerbart, that does make me feel a lot better about Bottled Cloister, I will give it more of a try. Idea of turn 2 Bottled in order to prevent Thought-Knot just sounds sweet. Any recent changes to your list?

[owerbart]

Bottle to stop the TKS is a cheeky interaction, but overall the matchup is very lopsided in your favour.

I'm still playing the same list, I'm still trying to see what could I cut to jam some Tamiyo's Journal

[Hellraiser157]

Hello fellow Legacy Fans,

this is actually my first post here. I've been a reader of this forum for many years.
I'm originally from Germany, but i'm living/working in Canada (Vancouver, BC) right now.
I've been playing Magic since 1996 and i always had an affinity towards black and green decks.

Owerbarts List got me interested, because i always wanted to play a Stax deck. I just recently discovered, that i'm playing a lot of chalice-decks. (MUD, Eldrazi, Stax, UBg Tezzeret)
I guess, i just wanna stop players from casting those brainstorms and swords! ;-)

I took Braid Stax to 2 local game nights on thursday at magic stronghold to give it a try.

That is my recent list, after a first revision:

CREATURES:
4 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Ophiomancer
2 Hangarback Walker

ARTIFACTS:
3 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere
4 Mox Diamond
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void

PLANESWALKER:
3 Liliana of the Veil

SOCERIES:
2 Toxic Deluge

LANDS:
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Phyrexian Tower
7 Swamp
2 Polluted Delta

SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Dystopia
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Cursed Totem
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Bottled Cloister
SB: 1 Winter Orb

Game 1: 1-1 (Shardless BUG)
- Dystopia out of the SB was my MVP

Game 2: 0-2 (BG Turbo Depth)
- Hymns and Abrupt Decyas are good cards ;-)

Game 3: 2-0 (Grixis Pyromancer)
- Chalice and Toxic Deluge

Game 4: 0-2 (Mentor Miracles)
- Trinisphere and Winter Orb are good here

_____________________________________________________

+ T1 ophiomancer, T2 Braids on the play ;-)
+ Ophiomancer holding off everything on the ground
+ Hangarback Walker: first test, fits into the game plan of being a permanent that creates more permanents when it dies (Braids, Stax, Toxic Deluge)
+ Dystopia against Shardless BUG, Maverick, D&T
+ Opponents Faces when they ask themselves how and what they should board

-- awkward opening draws with no ways to fix it (but that is what we signed up for)
-- still looking for a way to draw cards and apply more pressure (i have to test bottled cloister more)
-- loses against itself some time ;-)
-- what to do when opponents are playing basic lands?!?! I mean, WTF!! ;-)

____________________________________________________

Thoughts moving forward:
- i want to try the more "aggressive" route with +1 Hangarback Walker and Jitte
- SB Tech (thanks to Colin for the idea): 2x Apostle's Blessing to protect my stuff against Decay, Swords, Bolts, Wear/Tear....
- maybe moving the Bridges to the SB, eventhough they are soooo good sometimes
- 3 Toxics main?
- maybe bitterblossom, but i'm afraid the lifeloss would be too much

Thanks for reading.
- Philip

[Hellraiser157]

a quick follow up on my Braids Stax List v03:

CREATURES:
4 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Ophiomancer
4 Hangarback Walker

ARTIFACTS:
3 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
3 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Opal
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte

SOCERIES:
2 Toxic Deluge

PLANESWALKERS:
3 Liliana of the Veil

LANDS:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
7 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 City of Traitors
2 Cavern of Souls

SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Winter Orb
SB: 2 Dystopia
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Trading Post

stuff i've tested:
4x Hangarback Walker - hard to tell, they died a lot to STP, but i was always happy to see one
1x Mox Opal - easy to unlock with 23 artifacts, but sometimes awkward with trinisphere in play
2x umezawa's jitte - a flex spot, maybe replaced with more lock pieces/card draw, move to SB?

stuff i wanna test:
2x warping wail Mainboard - counters Terminus, gets rid of DRS


Match 1: 2 - 1 (Dredge)
- i got lucky with T0 leyline in both games

Match 2: 1 - 2 (Miracles)
- i hate SDT and Terminus!!! ;-)
- brought in 2x pithing needle, 1x Plague, 2x Winter Orb -> next maybe 3x pithing needle

Match 3: 0 - 2 (Dredge)
- this time no luck with the leyline, dread return got there, i didn't see any bridges

Match 4: 2 - 0 (Storm)
- MB hate is good


A little bit off topic, but Stax related:
i have seen this sweet Eldrazi Stax Deck from Valentin Mackl in Prague last week. i really like the combination of lock pieces and pressure here:

4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
4 Smokestack
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Trinisphere

SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction


thanks for reading.
- philip

[owerbart]

Hi. Sorry for the late reply, I've been doing a lot of work and got loaded with study from the uni.

I took the classical list for 4 rounds of legacy today.

R1: Miracles

G1 I have the T1 trinisphere, he gets stuck in two lands and I just lock him.

IN 3 Revoker, out 1 Toxic, 2 Bridge

G2 I have a T1 chalice but i draw like 10 lands in a row and he eventually breaks free.

G3 My lockpieces get countered, but my Braids goes unchecked long enough to swallow his permanents.


WIN 2-1


R2: UR Eldrazi (with cantrips)

G1 He plays Eye and Mimic + Endless. I have a turn two Bridge but i'm wary of the T2 TKS (he's on the play) so I waste him, take 6, but he doesn't have two sol-lands to power the T2 TKS. I hide behind my bridge + Trading Post winning life, which locks him out of the game. With no pressure at all I'm able to comfortably develop my board.

IN + 8 Helm Combo pieces, out the 4 trinis, 4 COTV

G2 He gets too quickly and my bridge gets bounced.

G3 I have a T2 Ophiomancer that holds the fort, with T0 leyline. Eventually I get to resist enough beatings to find the Helm and take the game.

WIN 2-1


R3: UW Stoneblade (with MD back to basics)

G1 I have a T1 chalice, and although I have the wasteland + crucible lock he plays so many wastelands it does nothing. Even though he plays two spells into the COTV, he gets a couple of Aven Mindcensors that laugh at my Ophiomancer :(

OUT 2 Crucible, in 1 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Virtue's Ruin

G2 Is a blast. I have a quick chalice that gets countered, I keep drawing smokestacks and he has a Meddling Mage naming it. I keep taking hits until he commits a second creature, and then I cast Virtue's Ruin. I fight through Hurkyll's Recall x 2 but eventually I have 3 Smokestacks in 3 that sweep his board before he can Ultimate with Jace.

G3 My chalice gets dazed, but my Smokey gets in and it eventually sweeps his board.

WIN 2-1


R4: Miracles

G1 My T2 on the draw Trini gets spell pierced, although that means that he has to draw with his T1 top and miss his third landrop. My second trini sticks, and he topdecks land just in time to get rid of my braids. I do however manage to land a crucible to keep his miracles in check with wasteland on his fetches, + a chalice on 1. He has a Jace but keeps brainstorming into 1 CMC spells and my creatures through cavern do the job.

In: 3 Phyrexian Revoker, out 2 Bridge, 1 Toxic

G2 He plays top go. I have COTV on 1. He tops in his upkeep and concedes.

WIN 2-0


Overall a fun event. I seriously felt better about our Miracles matchup, I think my win percentage is about 80% against miracles by now.

[TLK]

Owerbart what's your current list?

[owerbart]

Owerbart what's your current list?

I'm still playing my stock list. I didn't included it in the report, but Trading Post literally was the MVP the whole event. The card has so many good interactions it's beyond insane.

@Hellraiser157 I know that like a lot of people in this thread, you favor Liliana over Trading Post, and although I can see your point, believe me that if you want to jam Liliana in this deck, then definitely Trading Post isn't the card to cut. I've been playing this deck for something like two years, and Lili was in my initial builds, but I can count with just one hand how many times I'd rather have Lili than T.Post.

I've been experimenting with a Ghost Quarter in the sideboard if decks with a shit ton of basics keep appearing, and is also nice vs Miracles and Delver decks with no basics.

I've been planning on having the Guardian Beasts in the sideboard but never managed to draw it unfortunately.

[owerbart]

I still need to see it on my own eyes in a real game, but Guardian Beast would be a beating against Decay decks, since you are both nullifying Decay and K. Grip (beast dodges both).

The thing about decay is that it's so flexible, thats why bug decks have it as their permanent removal/ creature killer spell. The more they rely on it, the more Beast becomes. Other creature removal they usually run are disfigure post board (beast survives it) and edict effects from lili or the 2cmc cards, so that they should be covered through Ophiomancer and our favorite Goat generator :)

[square_two]

I still need to see it on my own eyes in a real game, but Guardian Beast would be a beating against Decay decks, since you are both nullifying Decay and K. Grip (beast dodges both).

The thing about decay is that it's so flexible, thats why bug decks have it as their permanent removal/ creature killer spell. The more they rely on it, the more Beast becomes. Other creature removal they usually run are disfigure post board (beast survives it) and edict effects from lili or the 2cmc cards, so that they should be covered through Ophiomancer and our favorite Goat generator :)

And your current sideboard? Opening post lists the 8 Helm/Leyline pieces and then 7 flex. And ouch for Guardian Beast's pricetag in paper. Probably one of the most expensive oddball sideboard cards, at least from a playability-to-cost ratio. I like it though.

[TLK]

And your current sideboard? Opening post lists the 8 Helm/Leyline pieces and then 7 flex. And ouch for Guardian Beast's pricetag in paper. Probably one of the most expensive oddball sideboard cards, at least from a playability-to-cost ratio. I like it though.

Guardian Beast skyrocketed because of 93/94. It didn't carry that hefty of a price tag a number of months ago. That said, I do like the application here.

[Wotkenmendo]

I still need to see it on my own eyes in a real game, but Guardian Beast would be a beating against Decay decks, since you are both nullifying Decay and K. Grip (beast dodges both).

The thing about decay is that it's so flexible, thats why bug decks have it as their permanent removal/ creature killer spell. The more they rely on it, the more Beast becomes. Other creature removal they usually run are disfigure post board (beast survives it) and edict effects from lili or the 2cmc cards, so that they should be covered through Ophiomancer and our favorite Goat generator :)

I have resolved him a couple of times to hold off the Krosan Grips of the lands player I test with frequently. Quite strong! Definitely worth running 1 or 2 in the board I think.

[owerbart]

I have resolved him a couple of times to hold off the Krosan Grips of the lands player I test with frequently. Quite strong! Definitely worth running 1 or 2 in the board I think.

I resolved it against Deathblade

Chalice protecting Guardian Beast from STP

Guardian protecting Chalice from Decay :)

[HNana]

I resolved it against Deathblade

Chalice protecting Guardian Beast from STP

Guardian protecting Chalice from Decay :)

I'm now $100 poorer because this thread made me buy a guardian beast. I can't wait, especially because against shardless in the finals of a local weekly, i lost match 3 because he maelstrom pulse'd my bottled cloister, and then cast 2 decays on both of my ensnaring bridges. I need that guardian beast in my life lol.

[non-inflammable]

I'm gonna put this together once I get the ophiomancer's...

The green splash with Tireless Tracker plays well with Smokestack; you can sacrifice clues to stax and TT grows by +1/+1

Also, gonna run one Inventor's Fair when it's legal to play!

[non-inflammable]

Gonna run this next week.
Just gotta get the last few cards and maybe a guardian beast!

4 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Ophiomancer
4 thalia

3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Diamond
2 Bottled Cloister
1 Vindicate

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Scrubland
1 Mishra's Factory
2 Horizon Canopy
1 karakas
1 God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai
4 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold

[square_two]

Gonna run this next week.
Just gotta get the last few cards and maybe a guardian beast!

Which Thalia are you referring to?

1W oldschool Thalia doesn't work so well with Trinisphere.

I would be really hesitant to run lands such as Factory, Volrath's Stronghold, Canopy, and Gods' Eye if you want to splash a second color. Can be surprising how important having access to basics can be. Or if you splash, access to more dual colors.

[hofzge]

Gonna run this next week.
Just gotta get the last few cards and maybe a guardian beast!

4 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Ophiomancer
4 thalia


I assume you mean Liliana and not Thalia...

[non-inflammable]

nope, gonna run that list, when i can, with old school thalia.
first turn mox diamond, cavern of souls, and you have a thorn of amethyst that stings with first strike and can be protected with karakas. seems good?
I decided on this list to always have a first turn play that needs to be answered or fall way behind.

My local meta is mostly tempo and lots of card drawing.
I have a visceral enmity towards brainstorm and consider it my personal duty to make any one that thinks it is a fair card to play me...

granted, i haven't played the list yet but it is totally built sitting next to me as i type this.
my goal for every Legacy event at my LGS was to come with a very different deck for every event.
Every deck i play would be evaluated and either altered or retired.

Sure, liliana of the veil IS my favorite card, but for now she will stay in my binder...

[non-inflammable]

So I went 2-1-1 and top 4'd for split.
Stomped out storm, lost badly to D&T, beat eldrazi and went to time with thopter foundry sword of the meek tezz.

I did encounter several games where I had multiple Thalia in hand and needed something else.
I also had vindicate stuck in my hand too often, never cast bottled cloister and some games I never saw a single wasteland.
If i make this again, I might go mono-black and include Lili like suggested...

Lots of fun and most opponents read ophiomancer wrong: MVP :}

[knopfler]

I've been planning on having the Guardian Beasts in the sideboard but never managed to draw it unfortunately.

Sorry for reply late this quote but there are other alternatives to Guardian beasts for stax decks:

Hanna's Custody
Karmic Justice

You also could try Enlightened Tutor if you didn't cast a chalice of the void with 1 mana cost.

As you are using Braids, Cabal Minion and Smokestack, why don't you use Paradox Haze in your deck? I'm using it in another stax deck version but imagine the cabal minion and Smokestack powered their effects.

Regards

[bmscully]

I took an older list of Braids Stax 3-2 in the old friendly legacy leagues. It's a really fun deck, and I'm currently testing this list on MODO in the tournament practice room getting ready for another run:


4 Ancient Tomb
1 Drownyard Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
1 Inventors' Fair
5 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

1 Bottled Cloister
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ghirapur Orrery
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
1 Trading Post
4 Trinisphere

4 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Ophiomancer

3 Toxic Deluge


Sideboard

1 Bottled Cloister
3 Helm of Obedience
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Plague Spitter
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale


I like Drownyard Temple for recursive sacrificing. I played against Nic Fit with Deathrite Shaman today, and with 5 additional mana sources, I was able to keep it from getting exiled while their lands got sacrificed.

I've had Ghirapur Orrery come online as early as turn 3 under a Trinisphere with Trading Post in play. I managed to draw 6 cards over 2 turns, which earned a concession. I'm not sure if this card is good or bad yet. It seems like opponents don't come close to drawing nearly as many cards as I do, but they do get to play an extra land every turn which sets the plan back a little bit, especially against Miracles. The good news is that some of the more aggressive decks I tend to lose to (Burn) have lower land counts, which helps to offset the problem. I also like that you get card draw about equal to Bottled Cloister but there's no risk of losing your hand to artifact destruction. There's still a trade between accelerating yourself and your opponent, and having discard protection.

Inventors' Fair is awesome. It's very easy to be on 3 artifacts, and the life gain mitigates some of the damage from Ancient Tomb. Being able to search multiple artifacts with Crucible of Worlds can be handy, but I wish there was a more proactive artifact to go get in the main. I've toyed with the idea of vehicles side or main. The Crew 2 works well with Ophiomancer and Braids, Cabal Minion that occasionally end up sidelined when they manage to keep a creature in play. It also acts as your fourth Helm of Obedience in the sideboard.

If I had to cut anything it would be Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai. It's nice that you get two sacrifices out of it, and it's powerful with Crucible of Worlds, but I've been underwhelmed. I'd replace it with another black source most likely.

The sideboard is fine. The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is great even with a low creature count because of how many lands you wind up killing. I used Contamination and really liked it the first turn. It was bugged on MODO, so you couldn't sacrifice a creature to it. With Ophiomancer in play, it really sets some decks back. Plague Spitter has been ok, but I wish it did more, especially against Deathrite Shaman and Insectile Abberation. Bottled Cloister may come out for something else. I've really liked Warping Wail in the side and main, so that's a possibility. Also would like something against Eldrazi since I wind up boarding out Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere, usually for helmline.

[bruizar]

If this build could include either tangle wire or vehicles, i think king macar would make an excellent addition to the deck. It produces a permanent that can be sacked for smokestack/braids, exiles creatures, and serves as a win condition + ramp

Also, when running tabernacle and plaguespitter, up the amount of urborgs and run a kormus bell

[square_two]

If this build could include either tangle wire or vehicles, i think king macar would make an excellent addition to the deck. It produces a permanent that can be sacked for smokestack/braids, exiles creatures, and serves as a win condition + ramp

Also, when running tabernacle and plaguespitter, up the amount of urborgs and run a kormus bell

The copter adds a lot of gas to Dragon Stompy (I ran it in main Eternal Weekend event and the filtering was huge), but there is also an absurd amount of bodies to pilot it in that deck. 8 Rabblemasters + tokens, Magus, Pia + tokens...

I really do love the idea of having some looting in Braids Stax but you'd have to guarantee the creature base can support that one. Ideas I think could make it work would be Hangarback Walker, overloading on Bitterblossom, or trying for a more human-centric build with some combination of those + Dark Confidants which I tried earlier in the year.

Over the weekend I played against the Inventor's Fair Stax deck and saw Tanglewire do a lot of work. With Ophiomancer + Bitterblossom we have the ability to flood the board early with even more permanents which makes that card further in our favor. Think I would try it before the Copter + creatures idea which to me sounds like it could take too many key spots in the deck. Tanglewire hasn't had much esteem in legacy but that stax deck is making it work well.

[bmscully]

If this build could include either tangle wire or vehicles, i think king macar would make an excellent addition to the deck. It produces a permanent that can be sacked for smokestack/braids, exiles creatures, and serves as a win condition + ramp

Also, when running tabernacle and plaguespitter, up the amount of urborgs and run a kormus bell

I like the concept of The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale with Plague Spitter, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Kormus Bell. With Spitter, you're dealing 3 a turn (if they have no blockers) until they get mana back on line, and with Tabernacle you're probably tapping down 60% of your lands (and taking a fair amount of damage) whereas they're likely tapping down more. If you get out a Crucible of Worlds you're ahead. If Ghirapur Orrery is out with the crucible, you're way ahead.

The other nice thing about Ghirapur Orrery I've noticed in testing is its interaction with Bottled Cloister. If you stack Cloister -> Orrery, Orrery resolves to draw you 3 cards, then you get a card from Cloister, then you get your hand back.

[Admiral Nobeard]

I recently found this thread, so I'm not sure if this counts as necro'ing a thread, but I've been working on my own list. Does it look okay to ya'll?

4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
1x Drownyard Temple
4x Ghost Quarter
1x Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
1x Karakas
2x Scrubland
4x Swamp
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Volrath's Stronghold

4x Chalice of the Void
3x Crucible of Worlds
3x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Ghirapur Orrery
4x Mox Diamond
4x Smokestack
1x Trading Post
2x Trinisphere
3x Toxic Deluge

4x Braids, Cabal Minion
4x Ophiomancer
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Sideboard
1x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Helm of Obedience
1x Leonin Arbiter
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Plague Spitter
3x Recruiter of the Guard

I decided to go with a more toolbox sideboard, almost like a D&T shell, but avoiding anything with double white since we only have a splash of white anyway. I've also changed out all four Wastelands for a set of Ghost Quarters, for the sole reason that they can hit basics.

[kinda]

I'd cut Thalia and shave 2 other cards for bitterblossom and contamination. Probably 3 of each as you're already running 4 ophiomancer. I would want some factories too as crucible plus factory plus contamination works.

[Admiral Nobeard]

I like the Bitterblossom idea and Contamination to lock out opposing colours. I've since updated my list to more resemble a Pox list in the side, cutting out all white and replacing with a splash of green for Life from the Loam, as a backup to Crucible. Here's my current list.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/20-02-17-black-stax/

[kinda]

I like the Bitterblossom idea and Contamination to lock out opposing colours. I've since updated my list to more resemble a Pox list in the side, cutting out all white and replacing with a splash of green for Life from the Loam, as a backup to Crucible. Here's my current list.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/20-02-17-black-stax/

Any tournament results yet?

[owerbart]

I posted another 3-0 last tuesday, which means i'm 11-1 with this deck since the start of the year in IRL playing.

I've been toying around with inventor's fair, and the card looks promising. Gaining life is extremely relevant, although i found out that the tutoring ability isn't that great since if you have 3 artifacts already down it means you are already ahead. still, a nice addition. I didn't know what to cut for it, and after some hours of testing i've decided to add it as card 61 in the deck. Which means that now I'm running 25 lands.

Last tuesday i went:

R1: Bye
R2: Miracles (Easy lock)
R3: Manaless Dredge: G1 i had bridge and cloister out with fair, but one turn before i tutored up trini and locked him out of everything he dredges into the combo. G2 and 3 is just Leyline T0
R4: Storm. G1 i have a chalice and an ophiomancer and he can't get out. G2 I have Leyline + Revoker + a Braids cutting him off lands. Eventually I run a chalice and the game ends.

Question for you guys: Do you like bringing Leyline against Storm or other Non-GY combo?

[TLK]

What's your current list?

[Serapha]

What's your current list?

I would love to know as well!

[kinda]

I posted another 3-0 last tuesday, which means i'm 11-1 with this deck since the start of the year in IRL playing.

I've been toying around with inventor's fair, and the card looks promising. Gaining life is extremely relevant, although i found out that the tutoring ability isn't that great since if you have 3 artifacts already down it means you are already ahead. still, a nice addition. I didn't know what to cut for it, and after some hours of testing i've decided to add it as card 61 in the deck. Which means that now I'm running 25 lands.

Last tuesday i went:

R1: Bye
R2: Miracles (Easy lock)
R3: Manaless Dredge: G1 i had bridge and cloister out with fair, but one turn before i tutored up trini and locked him out of everything he dredges into the combo. G2 and 3 is just Leyline T0
R4: Storm. G1 i have a chalice and an ophiomancer and he can't get out. G2 I have Leyline + Revoker + a Braids cutting him off lands. Eventually I run a chalice and the game ends.

Question for you guys: Do you like bringing Leyline against Storm or other Non-GY combo?

Yes on bringing in lotv against storm. Unless you have 60 better cards. I would also like to see this list!

[owerbart]

I'm still playing the same list as ever. Just with an Inventor's Fair as card 61.

4 Braids
4 Ophio

4 Trini
4 Chalice
4 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
3 Bridge
2 Crucible
2 Trading Post
2 Bottled Cloister

3 Toxic Deluge

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 God's Eye, Gate to Reikai
1 Inventor's Fair
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Peat Bog

SB:

4 LOTV
4 Helm
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Perish
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Plague Spitter
1 Notorious Assassin

[kinda]

I'm still playing the same list as ever. Just with an Inventor's Fair as card 61.

4 Braids
4 Ophio

4 Trini
4 Chalice
4 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
3 Bridge
2 Crucible
2 Trading Post
2 Bottled Cloister

3 Toxic Deluge

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 God's Eye, Gate to Reikai
1 Inventor's Fair
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Peat Bog

SB:

4 LOTV
4 Helm
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Perish
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Plague Spitter
1 Notorious Assassin

List looks really great. How is your delver matchup?

[fluuu]

List looks really great. How is your delver matchup?

Up

[owerbart]

Sorry I didn't see these messages nor they appeared on my alerts :(

Delver matchup is fine. BUG Delver is probably the most complicated because of the MD Decays. Chalice is always nice against Grixis or RUG, they can't play a whole lot after it resolves. Ophio is great to stop Anglers and Goyfs, and as long as you have a prison effect for the YP Shenanigans they'll eventually die to a Stax effect.

Probably the most terrible matchup is Aggro Loam, since your lockpieces won't do a whole lot unless you manage to stick a COTV in 2 and they don't find decay.

[toletole]

Sorry I didn't see these messages nor they appeared on my alerts :(

Delver matchup is fine. BUG Delver is probably the most complicated because of the MD Decays. Chalice is always nice against Grixis or RUG, they can't play a whole lot after it resolves. Ophio is great to stop Anglers and Goyfs, and as long as you have a prison effect for the YP Shenanigans they'll eventually die to a Stax effect.

Probably the most terrible matchup is Aggro Loam, since your lockpieces won't do a whole lot unless you manage to stick a COTV in 2 and they don't find decay.

Belive in this guy... he made me buy Seeds of Innocence to try against this deck. It's not an all in deck at all, it grinds very well.

[fluuu]

Belive in this guy... he made me buy Seeds of Innocence to try against this deck. It's not an all in deck at all, it grinds very well.

Any experience with this dewck?

[square_two]

We got a strict upgrade! :laugh:

Dunes of the Dead

Making a 2/2 as opposed to a 1/1 is nice, yeah?

[owerbart]

We got a strict upgrade! :laugh:

Dunes of the Dead

Making a 2/2 as opposed to a 1/1 is nice, yeah?

Indeed :)

Also the fact that it's not legendary could makes us consider running more than one MD. I'll definitely test with this thing. Good find!

[fluuu]

Indeed :)

Also the fact that it's not legendary could makes us consider running more than one MD. I'll definitely test with this thing. Good find!

What are the impressions with this deck in the new meta?

What are the most recent deck lists?

[R3ndr0c]

@Owerbart

hey Cockatrice buddy,

how do you sideboard?

and is that Helm the Helm of Obedience??

I tried running your list and it's not the easier to figure out sideboarding. Like against infect for instance.

[square_two]

FINALLY finished building this deck in paper at Eternal Weekend. Required a couple of Crucibles that I still hadn't gotten around to acquiring.

Played owerbart's primary list for one of the trials, although I wasn't able to find Plague Spitters in time :( Managed Thurs night event 3-2 to win half a box.

Entered the main event with this list:

4 Braids
4 Ophio

4 Trinisphere
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
4 Chalice
4 Smokestack
3 Bridge
2 Crucible
2 Trading Post

3 Toxic Deluge

4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
5 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Dunes of the Dead
1 Inventor's Fair
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
1 Peat Bog

SB:

4 LOTV
4 Helm
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Collective Brutality
2 Perish
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Bottled Cloister

Ok so quick words on the list. Most of it is owerbart's tried and true list. I was impressed with Spyglass and so I put it in replacing the Cloisters. This helps increase the number of T1 lock plays, deals with Deathrite and other stuff. I opted to keep in double Trading Post since Post can get rid of dead cards, gain life (this was HUGE over the weekend), do all kinds of awesomeness. Still wanted a Cloister in the side for those grindy games, although I really like Spyglass and a 3rd wouldn't be a bad idea somewhere.

Brutalities in the side were an experiment that absolutely punted. You only would want them very early, and you simply can't rely on having a black source right when you need to play them. Figured duress would be nice and it would be helpful to ditch cards for a Bridge, but it just didn't help the matches I brought them in for. Should have just been 2 Thorns which would have really helped against TES. Thats about the only change I have in mind, was very happy with the 75.

Round 1 vs Mike on Deathblade
Game 1 he gets down T1 delver, forces my chalice, and lays down a T2 stoneforge grabbing batterskull. My timely deluge on my T2 sweeps his two guys, and my followup Chalice -> Braids -> Ophiomancer gobbles up his board.

Game 2 Inventor's Fair saves my ass. He gets down deathrite and sfm for jitte. I've gotten down crucible, sphere, and a smokestack ticking up with a bridge. Unfortunately I can't find a black source to get rid of my stupid BRUTALITY and so he gets in with stoneforge + jitte. On the last turn before I die, I'm able to sacrifice dunes and make a zombie. He punts by not killing the zombie and swinging sfm and drs for 2 (I got down to 2). Because of that, I'm able to block with zombie, go to 1, and smokestack sweeps his board next turn and he concedes.

1-0

Round 2 vs Cameron on Miracles
Game 1 I have T1 Chalice, T2 Trinisphere (god my favorite card), T3 Braids. My life total shows ancient tomb bringing me down to 12, his life total decreases by 2 (braids) until I find an Ophiomancer to join in the beats.

Game 2 He T1 ponders, keeps stuff on top. I go T1 Spyglass, see his hand of Counterspell, Predict, Flooded Strand, Terminus, Search for Azcanta, Jitte. I name Flooded Strand. Turns out he kept another Strand on top of his library. My next plays are T2 Sphere, followed by Smokestack and Trading Post. I don't think he did anything else besides his first Island and two fetches.

Deck is still a miracles crusher, I see.

2-0

Round 3 vs Sahaj on Lands
Game 1 I don't recall too much. I -almost- had him locked out of green mana to cast loam, with him only having a maze in play. Unfortunately he draws into a fetchland and grabs basic forest. From there his manabond overwhelms me and I'm unable to find a bridge to hide under before I'm hit with a 20/20.

Game 2 I kept a T1 Chalice hand, but then got wasted out and was unable to cast crucible before he k-grips the chalice and lays out exploration + loam. Similar fate as previous game but with less mana this time.

2-1

Round 4 vs Max on Miracles
Game 1 has me taking a lot of tomb damage. That's due to my T1 chalice (resolves), my T2 attempt at a chalice on 2 (forced). I then lay down Ophiomancer on T3 followed by her best friend Braids on T4. He conceded to that.

Game 2 I don't remember my early plays but he get out an entreat for 3 angels and then counters my followup deluge.

Game 3 was quite the slog. I've got a lot of permanents, including sphere, crucible, smokestack, trading post. He's able to entreat for 3 angels again, but I get bridge out and smokestack starts ticking up. I'm able to make a goat each turn and sacrifice a land in order to keep it fed, and I'm just keeping him off of 6 mana so that snapcaster can't get back a used disenchant. He eventually does find another, destroys my bridge and I go from 24 down to 12 (poor braids was plowed twice earlier). At the end of turn, I trading post make a goat, and then on my turn I'm able to sacrifice a goat to get back bridge and replay. He doesn't have a way to overcome that, and I keep making goats and let stax slowly eat his board while I try to maintain my own. He finally tries for Mentor but I have a followup deed which he concedes to.

3-1

Round 5 vs Mark on Big Red
Game 1 I don't have much, he drops a ton of lands and takes what looks like Ophiomancer attacks for several turns. I don't find a bridge. He lands sneak and throws in griselbrand, pays 7 down to 2 life, goes to town.

Game 2 I helm him out on turn 3. Fairly certain that I topdecked an ancient tomb to be able to play and activate it the same turn. Nasty. Love that sideboard plan against other chalice decks.

Game 3 Ok here is where Brutality does have its one VITAL moment. I'm able to T2 brutality away his shattering spree. This means that after he plays out sneak attack, my bridge is able to save my ass. He sneaks in griselbrand, draws FOURTEEN cards and goes to 4. He furrows his brow, doesn't look like he found any removal for bridge. He does seething song stuff, sneaks in 4 inferno titans (doming me for 12 damage down to 8) along with a worldspine wurm. He ends the turn with 3 5/5's in play, sneak attack, and a full hand. Hm. My turn I play out Helm (no leyline in play) and pass back. He draws for turn, and hardcasts Spirit Guide for some beats while my hand is still not quite empty. At the end of his turn, I have mana to spare to activate helm for 2, finding oh god an ASHEN RIDER. I grab the thing, exile his sneak attack. On my turn I play trading post, sacrifice my bridge, and swing for lethal. Felt good.

4-1

Round 6 vs Alex on TES
Game 1 I kept a slower hand :/ He duresses me and goes off easily on T3.

Game 2 my notes show me with T1 sphere, T2 chalice on 1, T3 chalice on 2. He conceded. Need to better lay down chalice on 0, that mattered for game 3.

Game 3 I'm able to start with a leyline in play. Unfortunately he bounces my sphere and goes off on the turn before I activate lethal helm. Storm players with hurkyls recall are terrifying.

4-2

Round 7 vs Alex on MUD (see his reddit-linked report, also it might be on here - he went on to place 22nd)
Game 1 I have a great hand if my opp was on a brainstorm deck. Turns out T1 chalice doesn't do much against the likes of lodestone golem. I really have to rely upon Wasteland/Crucible/stax lock here, but both of those didn't come through.

Game 2 was pretty similar. He played out his own crucible which left me almost entirely hinging on Leyling/Helm combo, unfortunately I have to keep a hand without a leyline. He accelerates with metalworker, plays out lodestone, and all I can really do is helm-steal another of his golems. Shoot - was hoping for something big to race the ulamog he promptly lands.
He's able to exile my library before I assemble anything else. Great guy to meet and play against and I'm glad he did so well after beating me.

4-3

At this point, I'd played 7 rounds, was definitely feeling tired. Decided to drop and take a break before attempting a later side event. Total of 7-7 in matches across the weekend, including both side events I played this in. Could have changed based on my mulligan choices, I really could have used more experience in some of the more tricky decisions I was faced with.

Really enjoyed the list, I encourage anyone else to give it a go. Having 4 more stax effects with Braids is great fun (for you, not for opponent) and locks can be surprisingly quick to setup. Only change I'd make, as I stated at the beginning would be to put 2 Thorns in the side (but of course, tailor it to whatever your meta is). Main seemed great.

[ClimbGneiss]

Hello All:

I have some questions about this deck. Where does it struggle? I would have to imagine that it hurts that, like Turbo Moon, we don't have card selection, so we have to rely on the consistency of the prison pieces to choke out our opponent. That being said, I have a couple of random idea that I'm curious to hear your thoughts:

If we run less of the cards at the end of the 60 (like, Trading Post, or shave copies of certain artifacts) could we run more black spells and Unmask? Considering that this deck operates a little like a first 3 turn combo deck, having some sort of protection could be worthwhile.

Even if we didn't think Unmask was worthwhile, what about Wretched Confluence. It might be too expensive, but our cousin Moon Stompy is able to play the 4 CMC Fiery Confluence to fairly good effect.

Finally, is there any upside to adding green? I've seen some brief discussion on that in the posting before, but I wonder if Tireless Tracker isn't a possible upgrade to Ophiomancer? The deathtouch of the Ophiomancer tokens is relevant, but Tireless Tracker both draws cards and is a MUCH faster win condition on it's own, especially when we lay down a Chalice for 1 and no other lock pieces. Downside is that it turns off our Ensnaring Bridges OR we turn off our trackers - just a nonbo. Maybe we could run Sylvan Library if we ran green and it would help the card selection issue?

I think I prefer the idea of staying mono-colored, but just trying to spitball some ideas.

[AmokPL]

Hello All:

I have some questions about this deck. Where does it struggle? I would have to imagine that it hurts that, like Turbo Moon, we don't have card selection, so we have to rely on the consistency of the prison pieces to choke out our opponent. That being said, I have a couple of random idea that I'm curious to hear your thoughts:

If we run less of the cards at the end of the 60 (like, Trading Post, or shave copies of certain artifacts) could we run more black spells and Unmask? Considering that this deck operates a little like a first 3 turn combo deck, having some sort of protection could be worthwhile.

Even if we didn't think Unmask was worthwhile, what about Wretched Confluence. It might be too expensive, but our cousin Moon Stompy is able to play the 4 CMC Fiery Confluence to fairly good effect.

Finally, is there any upside to adding green? I've seen some brief discussion on that in the posting before, but I wonder if Tireless Tracker isn't a possible upgrade to Ophiomancer? The deathtouch of the Ophiomancer tokens is relevant, but Tireless Tracker both draws cards and is a MUCH faster win condition on it's own, especially when we lay down a Chalice for 1 and no other lock pieces. Downside is that it turns off our Ensnaring Bridges OR we turn off our trackers - just a nonbo. Maybe we could run Sylvan Library if we ran green and it would help the card selection issue?

I think I prefer the idea of staying mono-colored, but just trying to spitball some ideas.

I just started with it cause I have most of the cards from my MUD deck and I wanted to try something else. Confluence is way too expensive and bear in mind, Moon deck plays SSG and Songs to power it up early enough. Also where would you take second B from? Braids can use Caverns mana, black noncreature spells can't. As for Unmask - we don't have enough B cards to play it and those that we have are too important to waste them on it.

I haven't played it long enough but I don't think attacking opponent's hand is a way to play Stax. Force your pieces and force them to deal with it. When they don't have lands to play their spells or creatures to harm you + they are taxed or Chaliced let them have their full hand :D

[ClimbGneiss]

Fair points. Whatabout a green splash? Specifically, I am thinking of the addition of Tireless Tracker. Now, I can see the argument of adding a color reduces stability in the face of wasteland or blood moon, but we are already very weak to both of those. There must also be games where our lock pieces are countered or destroyed somehow, but a Tracker sticks around. A Tracker + a Chalice is very powerful as our Tracker will likely be more powerful than many creatures and dig us to our next lock pieces faster than they get to their piece of interaction. If we have to Deluge, there's at least some chance that Tracker is big enough to survive it. And, Sylvan Library could be played somewhere in the 75, if we need.

Other than those two cards, I can't think of anything I'd realllyyy want off the top of my head. I prefer Crucible to Life From the Loam.

[ClimbGneiss]

Fair points. Whatabout a green splash? Specifically, I am thinking of the addition of Tireless Tracker. Now, I can see the argument of adding a color reduces stability in the face of wasteland or blood moon, but we are already very weak to both of those. There must also be games where our lock pieces are countered or destroyed somehow, but a Tracker sticks around. A Tracker + a Chalice is very powerful as our Tracker will likely be more powerful than many creatures and dig us to our next lock pieces faster than they get to their piece of interaction. If we have to Deluge, there's at least some chance that Tracker is big enough to survive it. And, Sylvan Library could be played somewhere in the 75, if we need.

Other than those two cards, I can't think of anything I'd realllyyy want off the top of my head. I prefer Crucible to Life From the Loam.

To argue against myself, I suppose that Ophiomancer triggers next upkeep no matter what.

[Admiral Nobeard]

To argue against myself, I suppose that Ophiomancer triggers next upkeep no matter what.

Yes, Ophiomancer still triggers whether there's a snake in play or not. However, you can still stack the triggers where you sack the token to Smokestack, then immediately make another one.

[square_two]

Yes, Ophiomancer still triggers whether there's a snake in play or not. However, you can still stack the triggers where you sack the token to Smokestack, then immediately make another one.

This is incorrect. If you have a snake in play at start of upkeep, then Ophiomancer's ability never goes on the stack. You can't sac a snake and then still get another replacement on the same turn, have to wait until opponent's upkeep to get a new one.

"Ophiomancer’s ability checks if you control a Snake at the beginning of each upkeep. If you do, the ability won’t trigger."

It's still a great card, but a bit less so now that goyf isn't the premier threat to be blocking. It's really the combination of Ophio/land recursion/deck full of permanents that makes the stax effects work and be able to tickup.

I've tried adding a second color but it severely hampers the manabase. You could try going with less/no caverns since Miracles is no longer in force, but you'll find yourself needing to resolve Braids and Ophio against stuff like Daze and will be wanting them back I imagine.

[R3ndr0c]

What about just straight Black Human Stax?

// Black Stompy


// 60 Maindeck
// 15 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
4 Chrome Mox

// 18 Creature
4 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Ophiomancer
4 Mardu Strike Leader
4 Priest of Gix
2 Graveborn Muse

// 8 Enchantment
4 Contamination
4 Bitterblossom

// 19 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
6 Swamp
4 Cavern of Souls

// 15 Sideboard
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Engineered Plague
2 Massacre
1 Unmask


Priest of Gix is the weakest link here, but not sure what to replace it with. I think Xathrid Necromancer is better, even Doomed Dissenter.
yeah I'll replace it with 4x Necromancer for sure. Also, I suppose a couple Trading Post could fit in there.

[square_two]

What about just straight Black Human Stax?

// Black Stompy


// 60 Maindeck
// 15 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
4 Chrome Mox

// 18 Creature
4 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Ophiomancer
4 Mardu Strike Leader
4 Priest of Gix
2 Graveborn Muse

// 8 Enchantment
4 Contamination
4 Bitterblossom

// 19 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
6 Swamp
4 Cavern of Souls

// 15 Sideboard
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Engineered Plague
2 Massacre
1 Unmask


Priest of Gix is the weakest link here, but not sure what to replace it with. I think Xathrid Necromancer is better, even Doomed Dissenter.
yeah I'll replace it with 4x Necromancer for sure. Also, I suppose a couple Trading Post could fit in there.

Can certainly try it. Not sure why you don't just go with Bob for card draw though, guy's a human. I have an earlier post in this thread that outlined some experience trying out 3-4 Strike Leader and a playset of bobs. Jittes were used to suppliment the life loss. It really ravaged miracles back in the day, but I'm not sure how it would line up now. After playing at Eternal Weekend with Trading Posts, I'd be really hesistant to forego them, they are extremely versatile and I was always happy to draw one. So if you can find a way to include them (and not have too many other 4-drops), then great.

[R3ndr0c]

Can certainly try it. Not sure why you don't just go with Bob for card draw though, guy's a human. I have an earlier post in this thread that outlined some experience trying out 3-4 Strike Leader and a playset of bobs. Jittes were used to suppliment the life loss. It really ravaged miracles back in the day, but I'm not sure how it would line up now. After playing at Eternal Weekend with Trading Posts, I'd be really hesistant to forego them, they are extremely versatile and I was always happy to draw one. So if you can find a way to include them (and not have too many other 4-drops), then great.

The deck already has enough lifeless, and Bob is not good in decks with high CMC cards, for card draw I've used a couple copies of Graveborn Muse but I recently removed it... for now.
Bottled Cloister would be better than Bob too. Bob is uncounterable, but still not worth it.

I've added Xanthrid Necro and yes I also added Trading Post, since it's very useful in the deck.

I played only 2 matches recently vs. 4c Leo and Eldrazi Stompy and I won both.

Here's the updated list:

// Black Stompy

// 60 Maindeck
// 17 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
4 Chrome Mox
2 Trading Post

// 16 Creature
4 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Ophiomancer
4 Mardu Strike Leader
4 Xathrid Necromancer

// 8 Enchantment
4 Contamination
4 Bitterblossom

// 19 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
7 Swamp
4 Cavern of Souls

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 2 Sorcerous Spyglass
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Virtue's Ruin
SB: 1 Unmask


Contamination is what I like more about this deck. It's the black Blood Moon and many times Contamination is strictly better than Blood Moon in this deck. This deck can lock opponents out of the game so easily.

I'm looking forward to playing and tuning it more.

Any suggestions welcome, I'm not convinced my sideboard is correct.

[owerbart]

How do you guys feel dropping the Ensnaring Bridges?

[AmokPL]

The deck already has enough lifeless, and Bob is not good in decks with high CMC cards, for card draw I've used a couple copies of Graveborn Muse but I recently removed it... for now.
Bottled Cloister would be better than Bob too. Bob is uncounterable, but still not worth it.

I've added Xanthrid Necro and yes I also added Trading Post, since it's very useful in the deck.

I played only 2 matches recently vs. 4c Leo and Eldrazi Stompy and I won both.

Here's the updated list:

// Black Stompy

// 60 Maindeck
// 17 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
4 Chrome Mox
2 Trading Post

// 16 Creature
4 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Ophiomancer
4 Mardu Strike Leader
4 Xathrid Necromancer

// 8 Enchantment
4 Contamination
4 Bitterblossom

// 19 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
7 Swamp
4 Cavern of Souls

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 2 Sorcerous Spyglass
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Virtue's Ruin
SB: 1 Unmask


Contamination is what I like more about this deck. It's the black Blood Moon and many times Contamination is strictly better than Blood Moon in this deck. This deck can lock opponents out of the game so easily.

I'm looking forward to playing and tuning it more.

Any suggestions welcome, I'm not convinced my sideboard is correct.

Strong Considerations:
Liliana of the Veil
Is 4x Helm really necessary in the sideboard? what about Lilly?

how does Contamination work with Cavern and Tomb? Am I right thinking I wouldnt take 2 damage from Tomb but also would also lose the uncounterability of Cavern? I like your version.

EDIT Nevermind. Googled it and found out Contamination only changes amount and color of mana lands are producing. So Tomb still hurts but for B, and Cavern makes B with uncounterability (if thats even a word)

[R3ndr0c]

how does Contamination work with Cavern and Tomb? Am I right thinking I wouldnt take 2 damage from Tomb but also would also lose the uncounterability of Cavern? I like your version.

EDIT Nevermind. Googled it and found out Contamination only changes amount and color of mana lands are producing. So Tomb still hurts but for B, and Cavern makes B with uncounterability (if thats even a word)

Can you provide a link?

[AmokPL]

Can you provide a link?

All I could find was this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveEDH/comments/4mdnui/need_ruling_on_mishras_workshop_and_contamination/

[R3ndr0c]

All I could find was this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveEDH/comments/4mdnui/need_ruling_on_mishras_workshop_and_contamination/

It's definitely a strange a unique card so it's hard to find clear answers. I couldn't find anything helpful googling it myself.

It's a replacement effect it seems, that only changes color and amount of mana, as it clearly states. It does not replace the entire ability.

[non-inflammable]

Fair points. Whatabout a green splash? Specifically, I am thinking of the addition of Tireless Tracker.

the "sacrifice" requirement of smokestack will trigger the clue that a tracker makes so you do not draw a card but do put a +1/+1 on the tracker.

i played a similar list last year and like it enough to try this again but i'd squeeze in a crucible of worlds and a mutavault (human interaction)...


EDIT: If you sacrifice a Clue for another card’s cost or effect, such as that of Angelic Purge or Tamiyo’s Journal, you can’t also pay 2 and sacrifice it to draw a card.

[LoveAndLockPieces]

the "sacrifice" requirement of smokestack will trigger the clue that a tracker makes so you still draw a card and put a +1/+1 on the tracker.

i played a similar list last year and like it enough to try this again but i'd squeeze in a crucible of worlds and a mutavault (human interaction)...

Tracker's ability triggers whenever you sacrifice a clue. So it could get a +1/+1. But the draw comes from an activated ability of the clue. You cannot draw a card by sacrificing a clue to Smokestack.

[Lord_Dunsparce]

I'm getting ready for an event in a month and thought I'd dust off the ole stax and update it before looking to other options. kaldheim gave us a fun new toy in Tergrid, God of Fright.
With tegrid we can more agressively tick up the smokestack. Here is a quick 60 I threw together:

Creatures
4 Ophiomancer
4 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Tergrid, God of Fright

Sorceries
2 Toxic Deluge

Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
3 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack


Enchantments
1 Chains of Mephistopheles

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
1 Dunes of the Dead
1 Inventors' Fair
2 Peat Bog
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Waste Land