[SCD] Worldgorger Dragon Combo

[death]

That's cool and all, but I don't see where I would find the room without getting rid of a lot of stability. (Cunning wish) I would rather have a little bit more stability and less glass cannon.

Each card has its own merit. Careful Study is indeed cheaper but it requires you to draw the creature. Buried Alive on the other hand 1) tutors the creatures out of the library 2) bins them in the yard. From there half of the job is done.

A pair of Deathrite Shamans also can't race 3 WGD's in the yard.

[sjmcc13]

A pair of Deathrite Shamans also can't race 3 WGD's in the yard. Unfortunately they can just remove the one you target in response.

[kihachi]

I'm pretty sure this works, but confirmation would be nice before I start building with this in mind.


Baleful Strix in play.
Animate Worldgorger.
Dragon exiles all other permanents.
Dragon dies.
Permanents return.
Put Strix on the stack first followed by Animate Dead.
Dragon returns and starts the loop over again.


Assuming this works, you would be able to make infinite mana without drawing more than you want to (switch the stack order for Strix and Animate if you want to draw cards). You would still need to win at instant speed, but that is a non-issue really with a Wish build.

This seems to work to me. But it's a non-issue anyway, because you can just draw most of your deck and make a lot of mana and then Entomb something other than Dragon (like, say, Oona), play a Cabal Therapy, sac your Strix to Therapy, cast another reanimation spell for Dragon, and get infinite mana for the Oona win. There's almost no advantage to doing it one way or the other, so either one works.

[jvmauck]

Each card has its own merit. Careful Study is indeed cheaper but it requires you to draw the creature. Buried Alive on the other hand 1) tutors the creatures out of the library 2) bins them in the yard. From here half of the job is done.

A pair of Deathrite Shamans also can't race 3 WGD's in the yard.

That doesn't actually work. The deathrites will sit there and wait for you to cast say, animate dead, which targets. then it'll eat the target in response to the reanimation trigger. You would get nothing. Have someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm 95% certain that's how it works.

[Richard Cheese]

Reanimator has always been about "I win," however, it's never had an "I win this turn" combo.

Are you fucking kidding me!?

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24104-TinFins-3-Return-of-the-Onion-Burst

That's it, I'm done. Have fun reinventing the wheel.

[jvmauck]

Are you fucking kidding me!?

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24104-TinFins-3-Return-of-the-Onion-Burst

That's it, I'm done. Have fun reinventing the wheel.

That is Tin Fins, not traditional reanimator...

[alphastryk]

I posted this in the other thread, but I figured I'd share it here too. I was thinking about how to get this down to a true 2-card combo, and I found a way to do it. This might be too slow, but you can fit a ton of protection in this way.

Here's a really rough shot at it:


1 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Scholar of Athreos
4 Buried Alive
3 Gifts Ungiven
4 Animate Dead
3 Dance of the Dead

4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Marsh Flats

[EunB]

Are you fucking kidding me!?

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24104-TinFins-3-Return-of-the-Onion-Burst

That's it, I'm done. Have fun reinventing the wheel.

That's it boys, pack up the show, Legacy is over, Richard has found the unequivocal best deck in the format. No other brewing or discussion is allowed.

[LennonMarx]

I posted this in the other thread, but I figured I'd share it here too. I was thinking about how to get this down to a true 2-card combo, and I found a way to do it. This might be too slow, but you can fit a ton of protection in this way.

Here's a really rough shot at it:


1 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Scholar of Athreos
4 Buried Alive
3 Gifts Ungiven
4 Animate Dead
3 Dance of the Dead

4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Marsh Flats

Due to trying to cast gifts and/or buried alive, some number of Ancient Tombs might be better than some number of fetch lands (I was thinking 2, but 3 could be right). Also, if you are running gifts you should have at least 1 Necromancy in the deck so you can gifts for a reanimation spell.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Ok Di, I think you convinced me to try baleful strix. I didn't consider that all you needed to do was draw an entomb to break the loop and prevent yourself from decking.

One interaction I missed was that it just makes intuition into a win mid-combo. Grab 2 strix and oona and it doesn't matter which creature they let you keep.

The more I look at your list, the more I like it...except for the lotus petals. I get they give you added speed, but is that what we're going for?

To piggyback off your list, I want to try something along the lines of:



3 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
4 Baleful Strix

4 Animate Dead
3 Necromancy

4 Brainstorm
4 Entomb
3 Intuition
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pact of Negation

3 Cunning Wish? Not sure what else to run in the 3 open slots

4 Dark Ritual
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp


I really want the third pact, so I can intuition for them in a pinch.

[kihachi]

That's it boys, pack up the show, Legacy is over, Richard has found the unequivocal best deck in the format. No other brewing or discussion is allowed.

No need for that. When people say stuff like "there's no other two card instant win in the format," well, they deserve to be informed that Tin Fins is a deck. And to us competitive players, it's worth exploring Worldgorger if it can offer something Tin Fins doesn't, but the comparisons are relevant to that discussion.

[Jander78]

Ok Di, I think you convinced me to try baleful strix. I didn't consider that all you needed to do was draw an entomb to break the loop and prevent yourself from decking.

One interaction I missed was that it just makes intuition into a win mid-combo. Grab 2 strix and oona and it doesn't matter which creature they let you keep.

The more I look at your list, the more I like it...except for the lotus petals. I get they give you added speed, but is that what we're going for?

To piggyback off your list, I want to try something along the lines of:



3 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
4 Baleful Strix

4 Animate Dead
3 Necromancy

4 Brainstorm
4 Entomb
3 Intuition
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pact of Negation

3 Cunning Wish? Not sure what else to run in the 3 open slots

4 Dark Ritual
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp


I really want the third pact, so I can intuition for them in a pinch.
Good list. It's pretty close to what I've had the best success testing. I do agree that Baleful Strix is a great addition. I think you'd be surprised about running Drownyard and how it can be very useful pulling you out of situations and giving you wins you shouldn't have.

Here's where I'm at with my build:


4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize

4 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae

4 Animate Dead
3 Necromancy
4 Intuition
3 Entomb

2 Cunning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm

4 Dark Ritual
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Nephalia Drownyard


Sideboard:
1 Stroke of Genius
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Crop Rotation
2 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Entomb

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Gah. It just feels like I don't have room for drownyard and Ancient tomb! But I suppose drownyard does give you some easy wins, which I'm a fan of.

Also, what's with the 4/3 intuition/entomb split? I'd think that entomb is the better enabler?

Anyways, I've been spewing too much theory. I'll get to the LGS this weekend and put my money where my mouth is.

[Jander78]

Gah. It just feels like I don't have room for drownyard and Ancient tomb! But I suppose drownyard does give you some easy wins, which I'm a fan of.

Also, what's with the 4/3 intuition/entomb split? I'd think that entomb is the better enabler?

Anyways, I've been spewing too much theory. I'll get to the LGS this weekend and put my money where my mouth is.
Cunning Wish -> Entomb. Probably never relevant, but that's what I'm testing right now. By no means do I propose this as a correct list, still very much in testing.

[Amon Amarth]

I don't know if it has been brought up yet but if people start packing different kinds of hate, Pernicious Deed does work. Takes out all the permanent based hate and is pretty awesome if you're playing a more controlling list. Also sick with discard because Therapy and friends shore up the weakness of Surgical Extraction-esque hate cards AND is really good when you're playing a control game i.e. do they play into Deed or keep stuff in hand and vulnerable to discard? Twas good back in the day and and seems pretty good now though it and Abrupt Decay fight for MD/SB space.

Anyway, super excited about about WGD being back. Pretty interesting that there is a Dark Ritual-based non-Storm deck.

[Echelon]

Pernicious Deed seems a bit too slow to me for the current meta (I've been playing those things for years now). And not only that, but it can be stopped in multiple ways/on multiple moments. It just seems like a bad idea in such a blue-heavy environment.

[disc]

I've been toying around with Gifts Ungiven since it's just been unrestricted on the vintage side and after reading this thread wonder if there's any merit to it for legacy WGD. Sure legacy doesn't have moxen or drain to boost it out faster or access to the oops I win pile like timevault+BL+tutor+bazaar but since bazaar isn't an option it might work... I'm thinking along the lines of going more controlling and then gifting for dragon and your chosen kill card on opposing end step and then reanimating for the win. Then again I'm not sure if WGDecks could be in Legacys control deck slot as a better choice than miracles but maybe having a more midrange approach will help then trying to be fast like regular legacy reanimator or tin fins. The other idea using the four horseman monolith with mesmeric orb combo(or whatever it was) to dump everything into the GY. Both these ideas don't work unless you have one of the reanimat enchants in hand but I figured throwing in my two cents won't hurt.

Sent via phone forgive dumb grammer and spelling.

[Finn]

Jander, you need more mana, dude. The spells are not cheap and several require more than one color.

Disc, 4horesemen engine is not best here. You don't need everything in the yard, just a dragon. No need for the extra combo piece. That is -> 1 Entomb is better than 2 artifacts as setup.

[Noctalor]

Quick one.
I would suggest Hapless Researcher over Careful Study for those on that route, so we can break the loop much easier, i dont think this deck can go for a blind carefull anyways, so a draw1 should be as good as a draw2.

[Darkenslight]

So, remember how I was testing a list last night? For reference:



3 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Baleful Strix
1 Eternal Witness

4 Commune with the Gods
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Living Wish
4 Entomb
4 Abeyance
4 Silence
3 Crop Rotation
4 Animate Dead
4 Necromancy

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Tendo Ice Bridge
4 Bayou
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Nephalia Drownyard

Sideboard:

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Blood Artist
1 Karakas
1 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Well, it didn't quite go to plan. From findings against UR and Infect:

Gemstone Mine and Tendo: These were amazing all night long. The fact that they recharge after each loop is especially good.

Commune with the Gods: I'll likely change this in a BG list to Grisly Salvage, but it did good work all night. Not as impressive against Infect, which kept on killing me turn 2, but I think it might be a player.

Wishboard: Mildly useful, but not great. I didn't have the correct targets for the two decks I tested against. I know which cards I need to consider here.

[Di]

I've been actually coming to a similar conclusion about the Lotus Petals and feel that just having regular lands in their place would be better, along with at least the third Pact. I've also wanted to be able to Intuition for Pact, so it's a sensible move. This gives the deck some flexibility, albeit at some speed, but makes it more consistent as well. It also opens up options about a third color splash if needed. So I figure you could add 1-2 more lands, the third Pact, and then have a flex slot or two like Cunning Wish or something.

Drownyard is incredibly good and gives the deck some nifty options, so I wouldn't cut it, but the deck honestly can't support more than two reliably otherwise it occasionally chokes on colored mana. Piranha Marsh was a similar test spot, and virtually fills the same role. Ancient Tomb seems just weaker than Lotus Petal; there's very few instances where you'd need to boost in mana. If you did, you might as well run Petal instead for more potentially explosive turns. SNIP: I cannot remember the rules of the game and laugh myself off the DRS bandwagon.

[nodahero]

DRS, can't kill during the loop because he won't have haste Di.

As another thing I have been following this closely and I have come to a similar conclusion about why place this over reanimator or TinFins and I found a very interesting albeit untested reason.

May I present Mono-Black Dragon Stompy...

10 Swamp
2 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
5 Fetch

4 Trinisphere
4 Sphere of Resistance

4 Entomb
4 Buried Alive

2 Necromancy
4 Dance of the Dead
4 Animate Dead
3 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Oona

I haven't gotten to do ANY testing so this is entirely in theory however, it seems like an interesting game 1 design that has some serious strengths compared to the alternatives if we accept that we should play other decks if we don't want to merely reinvent the wheel.

[Daize]

Looks interesting.. I was thinking about something Chains of Mephistopheles / CotV, Smallpox myself, but seems the latter seems counterproductive... The best thing is that with 2 entombs and an animator in hand you can already have your T2 kill. If you're not on a clock, you can wait it out a bit with the Trinispheres.

Something I'm looking for myself is another kind of tutor. Whether it's to the graveyard or to the hand, preferably useful before and after having infinite mana. That way you don't need to have casted buried alive to switch animate dead to Oona, and if you get her tutored to your hand you can hardcast her..

[alphastryk]

I've been toying around with Gifts Ungiven since it's just been unrestricted on the vintage side and after reading this thread wonder if there's any merit to it for legacy WGD. Sure legacy doesn't have moxen or drain to boost it out faster or access to the oops I win pile like timevault+BL+tutor+bazaar but since bazaar isn't an option it might work... I'm thinking along the lines of going more controlling and then gifting for dragon and your chosen kill card on opposing end step and then reanimating for the win. Then again I'm not sure if WGDecks could be in Legacys control deck slot as a better choice than miracles but maybe having a more midrange approach will help then trying to be fast like regular legacy reanimator or tin fins. The other idea using the four horseman monolith with mesmeric orb combo(or whatever it was) to dump everything into the GY. Both these ideas don't work unless you have one of the reanimat enchants in hand but I figured throwing in my two cents won't hurt.

Sent via phone forgive dumb grammer and spelling.

I seem to be the only one playing around with Gifts, but it does let you turn this into a true 2-card combo by just using it as double Entomb.

No idea if you can fit a smaller package into a control deck - that would be interesting but what's the minimum slots it takes?
1 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Scholar of Atheros
x Gifts
x Animate Dead (package of 1 Necromancy, 1 Animate Dead, 1 Dance of the Dead so you can gifts for an out?)

Seems like a reasonably small package you could work into an existing UBx control deck. Although there's almost always a better Intuition setup.

[nodahero]

I simply wasn't a fan of casting Gifts in Legacy for as a double Entomb because you need at least 3 mana sources or 2 and a Ritual to cast it thus leading to a slower kill or card disadvantage. What further benefits do we get from playing this variant? I tossed around adding a fatty like Grisel and an Unburial Rights for another line to victory but then we are merely bloating the deck with excess cards because they don't make winning any easier really outside of having our plan A extracted.

[Daize]

The problem is that e.g. Sneak & Show has 2 alternatives for both wincons, and can back it up. What does WGD offer in return?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

So am I right that the main problem of this deck is the tons of hate that will come in game 2? They can let in their stp and decays bring some cages and gy hate an attack you from all angels. Not gonna win from there!

I have the solution^^
Transformational SB into Helm of the void combo!
Board out the dragons and the animate dead and bring in Leyline of the void and Helm of obedience!
Its really cute that you now doge all hate -> stp, decay(!), cage, rip/gyhate, torpor orb...
In an ideal word they might even cast their rest in peace asap just so you can ritual helm them right away!

[LennonMarx]

I seem to be the only one playing around with Gifts, but it does let you turn this into a true 2-card combo by just using it as double Entomb.

No idea if you can fit a smaller package into a control deck - that would be interesting but what's the minimum slots it takes?
1 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Scholar of Atheros
x Gifts
x Animate Dead (package of 1 Necromancy, 1 Animate Dead, 1 Dance of the Dead so you can gifts for an out?)

Seems like a reasonably small package you could work into an existing UBx control deck. Although there's almost always a better Intuition setup.

This is off the top of my head but might be worth testing.

4 Top
4 Counterbalance

2 Animate Dead
1 Dance of the Dead
1 Necromancy
1 WGD
1 Oona
1 Mulldrifter
4 Gifts

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 FoW
2 Dimir Charm
1 Crippling Fatigue
2 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Inquisition of Koszilek
1 Dismember

4 Polluted Delta
3 Blue Fetch
1 Black Fetch
3 Island
2 Swamp
4 Drownyard
4 Underground Sea

If the plan is to use Gifts, you might as well build the deck to use gifts. Countertop helps to break up a lot of the problem cards against you. Mulldrifter is an effort to make the animate effects not dead if you draw them early, but it might not be strong enough. The other fetches can be whatever colors are needed if there is a SB splash, and you could cut a few basics for the splash color duals. SB could be set up to either board into Obeyline combo like Cthulhu mentioned, or some kind of U/B control deck with Cliques, Jaces, sweepers (Deluge, The Abyss, Damnation), more removal, or whatever. I like Oona over the Scholar of Atheros because of being an OK plan-C of casting/Animating her and making faeries/beating down. I think I will test something like this at my LGS next week and see how it goes.

Edit: I suppose the lands could be optimized a bit. A snow-covered island and swamp are free to run, and there might be merit in playing a Duskmantle and a Piranha Marsh over 2 Drownyards so you could Gifts for a win-land if needed (and aren't splashing green, which the more I think about it is probably right, anyways).

[kihachi]

Looks interesting.. I was thinking about something Chains of Mephistopheles / CotV, Smallpox myself, but seems the latter seems counterproductive... The best thing is that with 2 entombs and an animator in hand you can already have your T2 kill. If you're not on a clock, you can wait it out a bit with the Trinispheres.

Something I'm looking for myself is another kind of tutor. Whether it's to the graveyard or to the hand, preferably useful before and after having infinite mana. That way you don't need to have casted buried alive to switch animate dead to Oona, and if you get her tutored to your hand you can hardcast her..

You can't hardcast her mid-loop, if that's what you're trying to do. Probably the closest thing to what you want is to have Intuition, which can grab your three other Entombs and give you one of those.

Anyway, here's what I've been goldfishing a million times, and it seems to go off pretty reliably with one or more blockers in play, and good hand disruption and/or counterspell backup:

4 Baleful Strix
2 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae

4 Lotus Petal
4 Entomb
4 Animate Dead
4 Dance of the Dead
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Intuition/Lim-Dul's Vault

1 Bayou
1 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea

Sideboard
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Delver of Secrets
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Young Pyromancer
1 Badlands


I honestly think the maindeck is close to tuned for this type of build (although I'm super intrigued by the prison variant and other builds I'm seeing here). What is probably more interesting though is the sideboard man-plan. You've already got Strix, which is a nice weapon, and alongside Delver, TNN and Young Pyro gives you a pretty decent beatdown plan, especially against a deck that just sided in a bunch of graveyard hate and became sub-optimal. Pyro could be Goyf if you have them and then you don't have to add red, but I think adding a land is prudent anyway when you become non-combo. The Decays also come in for creature removal, and you take out -4 Animate Dead, -4 Dance of the Dead, -4 Entomb, -2 Dragon, -1 Oona. Furthermore, if you only see permanent-based graveyard hate in game 2 and end up going to game 3, you can go back to the combo build but keep the Decays in the deck to deal with that.

EDIT:

So am I right that the main problem of this deck is the tons of hate that will come in game 2? They can let in their stp and decays bring some cages and gy hate an attack you from all angels. Not gonna win from there!

I have the solution^^
Transformational SB into Helm of the void combo!
Board out the dragons and the animate dead and bring in Leyline of the void and Helm of obedience!
Its really cute that you now doge all hate -> stp, decay(!), cage, rip/gyhate, torpor orb...
In an ideal word they might even cast their rest in peace asap just so you can ritual helm them right away!

This is a pretty hilarious idea that might also be a good idea! I imagine with a build like mine that you'd take out the same cards I take out for the man-plan, your splash color would be white, and your sideboard would be:

4 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
3-4 Enlightened Tutor
3-4 Serum Powder


You might want more mana for this more mana-intensive plan though, so maybe the Serum Powders are Sol lands instead... but Serum Powder does help you get Leyline into play for free.

The only problem I see right off the bat is that both the Dragon combo and Helm/Void combo are enchantment based, so any enchantment hate they may bring in will do splash damage. However, I think you're a lot more likely to see Abrupt Decay than Krosan Grip, and the Helm/Void combo totally dodges Decay, which is sweet. Not sure if I like this more than the man-plan, but either way, good thinking!

[Damiles]

I think this was already recommended... but grindstone works really well for a self
mill card.

[Daize]

Might as well go painter sb plan then instead of helm..

[codethulu]

I think this was already recommended... but grindstone works really well for a self
mill card.

If the goal is to get dragon in the yard, why not play a card that does that instead of a card that might occasionally do that?

[Damiles]

It works when Worldgorger is looped. From what I can tell it's a better replacement for a bazaar of baghdad effect rather than Nephalia Drownyard, or Duskmantle, House of Shadow.

[pfiremc13]

This is off the top of my head but might be worth testing.

4 Top
4 Counterbalance

2 Animate Dead
1 Dance of the Dead
1 Necromancy
1 WGD
1 Oona
1 Mulldrifter
4 Gifts

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 FoW
2 Dimir Charm
1 Crippling Fatigue
2 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Inquisition of Koszilek
1 Dismember

4 Polluted Delta
3 Blue Fetch
1 Black Fetch
3 Island
2 Swamp
4 Drownyard
4 Underground Sea

If the plan is to use Gifts, you might as well build the deck to use gifts. Countertop helps to break up a lot of the problem cards against you. Mulldrifter is an effort to make the animate effects not dead if you draw them early, but it might not be strong enough. The other fetches can be whatever colors are needed if there is a SB splash, and you could cut a few basics for the splash color duals. SB could be set up to either board into Obeyline combo like Cthulhu mentioned, or some kind of U/B control deck with Cliques, Jaces, sweepers (Deluge, The Abyss, Damnation), more removal, or whatever. I like Oona over the Scholar of Atheros because of being an OK plan-C of casting/Animating her and making faeries/beating down. I think I will test something like this at my LGS next week and see how it goes.

Edit: I suppose the lands could be optimized a bit. A snow-covered island and swamp are free to run, and there might be merit in playing a Duskmantle and a Piranha Marsh over 2 Drownyards so you could Gifts for a win-land if needed (and aren't splashing green, which the more I think about it is probably right, anyways).

I really like this list, though I would do a few things differently.

One, add some snapcasters. They are great without the combo, help you turn the combo into a kill, AND give you some value gifts options.

I also think you should add a loam/raven's crime package as a backup plan for gifts. Loam is relevant with the combo, and it's just a great gifts pile in general. And since you're splashing green, add some decays.

I'd cut an animate dead, the discard spells, the mulldrifter, the crippling fatigue, and the dismember.

Why are you running dimir charm?

[LennonMarx]

I really like this list, though I would do a few things differently.

One, add some snapcasters. They are great without the combo, help you turn the combo into a kill, AND give you some value gifts options.

I also think you should add a loam/raven's crime package as a backup plan for gifts. Loam is relevant with the combo, and it's just a great gifts pile in general. And since you're splashing green, add some decays.

I'd cut an animate dead, the discard spells, the mulldrifter, the crippling fatigue, and the dismember.

Why are you running dimir charm?

All valid ideas, though I don't like having a backup plan that is susceptible to a lot of the same hate as the main plan. The green splash is something I think is probably correct, at least in a build like this as you get access to Abrupt Decay which is way better than the removal I currently have in the list + Deeds and maybe swarms out of the board. Dimir Charm, along with Fatigue and Dismember, were there as outs to Deathrite Shaman. Charm specifically has 3 good modes for this deck so it seems worth testing. I also think you need some number of discard spells to make sure you can get to the point in the game where you can combo out and/or strip threats early.

I do agree with you that the 2nd Animate Dead and the Mulldrifter are very cutable, though. I could see making those Snapcasters or Baleful Strixes, and then swapping some of the discard spells for Therapys like a few of the other lists in the thread have been doing.

[jvmauck]

This is my current deck that I am testing. More of a reanimator deck with the option to instakill with dragon if you desire. I personally love it, but it needs some testing. Thoughts?


4 Griselbrand
1 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Ashen Rider
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae

3 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
3 Careful Study
4 Entomb
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Animate Dead
4 Reanimate
4 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacomb
4 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard
1 Scholar of Athreos
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Pithing Needle
2 Massacre
2 Show and Tell
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Dark Ritual

[xdavisx]

has anyone come with a straight b/r version?

[UB Control]

I like the idea of this deck very much. I started to think as soon as the unban was announced. First I started with an UB list. After a few games I saw that green is also necesary. My current list is:

4 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Entomb
2 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition

4 Careful Study
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize

4 Animate Dead
3 Dance of the Dead
1 Necromancy

4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Nephalia Drownyard
2 Piranha Marsh

SB:
4 Abrubt Decay
1 Flusterstorm
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Intuition
1 Dark Ritual
1 Crop Rotation
2 Dures
2 Massacre
2 Toxic Deluge

There ar surely some cards to change mostly in the SB but it is working!

[death]

has anyone come with a straight b/r version?

Eh, someone did: Mono-Black Dragon Reanimator (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29093-WGD-Mono-Black-Dragon-Reanimator). well not entirely....

[Finn]

I would love to hear ideas on making Leechridden Swamp work. You can fetch it with Polluted Delta and such, so it makes the combo much more stable. But...the darn dragon is not black, just the enchantment. It seems like a zero sum game, but I wonder if there is a simple way to have a second black permanent around. Don't say Strix.

EDIT: When I see World Gorger Dragon in the same deck with Reanimate, I just want to facepalm.

[Opterown]

I would love to hear ideas on making Leechridden Swamp work. You can fetch it with Polluted Delta and such, so it makes the combo much more stable. But...the darn dragon is not black, just the enchantment. It seems like a zero sum game, but I wonder if there is a simple way to have a second black permanent around. Don't say Strix.

EDIT: When I see World Gorger Dragon in the same deck with Reanimate, I just want to facepalm.

Doesn't the Leechridden Swamp come into play tapped ie you can't use its ability?

[Finn]

Yes it does! I found out last night :(
Poopie, but I never found a way to have the second permanent anyway.

I had this list locally last night.

1 Cunning Wish
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Baleful Strix
4 Force of Will
4 Entomb
2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Animate Dead
4 Necromancy
3 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Kederekt Leviathan
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Duskmantle, House of Shadow

sb:
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Pact of Negation
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Defense Grid
2 Thoughtseize
1 Evacuation
1 Sunder
1 Piracy Charm
3 Drown in Sorrow

Well, almost. I could not find my Duskmantles, so I went with both Drownyards. Did not matter.

notes:
This is not the version to play. The deck needs more search. Ponder is required. Either the Strixes must go or the Force of Wills.

Oona is useless. I don't know why I listened to these guys. Stuck in my hand frequently. Never once valuable. Snapcaster is the kill against Eldrazi.

The Unearth ability on the Leviathan is actually an important detail.

[death]

Too many protection: 4 Probe 4 Therapy 2 Thoughtseize 4 FoW? I'd recommend -2 Thoughtseize -1 Therapy +3 Cunning Wish. I don't understand why you are running what seems like a wish board with 1 miser's Cunning Wish in the main. Are you jamming those wish targets in game 2 and hope you win from those? Isn't CWish into Stroke the better option?

Oona getting stuck in your hand means Baleful Strix is not doing a decent job of killing, for you to have another Animate Dead target in the yard to stop the loop and hardcast Oona. Without Buried Alive, Intuition is better than Cunning Wish here.

I'm intigued at how many times you are able to resolve Necromancy without walking into a Daze or Spell Pierce. And if the game has gone far too long to the point where you are able to use Kederekt Leviathan's unearth ability you deserve an award.

[Finn]

Too many protection: 4 Probe 4 Therapy 2 Thoughtseize 4 FoW? I'd recommend -2 Thoughtseize -1 Therapy +3 Cunning Wish. I don't understand why you are running what seems like a wish board with 1 miser's Cunning Wish in the main. Are you jamming those wish targets in game 2 and hope you win from those? Isn't CWish into Stroke the better option?

Oona getting stuck in your hand means Baleful Strix is not doing a decent job of killing, for you to have another Animate Dead target in the yard to stop the loop and hardcast Oona. Without Buried Alive, Intuition is better than Cunning Wish here.

I'm intigued at how many times you are able to resolve Necromancy without walking into a Daze or Spell Pierce. And if the game has gone far too long to the point where you are able to use Kederekt Leviathan's unearth ability you deserve an award.

I have little idea what the best sideboard is yet. What you see is a random attempt.

Oona is stuck in my hand because she does nothing to help me go off and is entirely superfluous afterward. She may as well be any random card.

Obv, you use unearth after you have unlimited mana. I bounced a Spirit of the Lab and a Revoker on Oona with it, plus Snapcaster and Animate Dead. I still lost because I had no way to mill that game, but it let me maneuver an extra creature on the board. There is probably an application for that.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Might as well go painter sb plan then instead of helm..

What? The plan was to dodge creature hate and abrupt decay...

And what about a discardguy as random creature? Mesmeric fiend?

[Jander78]

Finn, I've come around as well to find Oona as redundant and not needed. The lack of Intuition (Search + Graveyard) in your list is why you're having issues finding components. I've found Force of Will (or any reactive spells) to not be that effective or even castable when trying to go off. Therapy/Thoughtseize have proven to be enough protection most of the time.

Here's where I'm at with the deck.


4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize

4 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Worldgorger Dragon

4 Animate Dead
3 Necromancy
4 Entomb

2 Cunning Wish
3 Intuition
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Nephalia Drownyard
2 Duskmantle, House of Shadow


Sideboard:
1 Stroke of Genius
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Misdirection
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Crop Rotation
3 Pithing Needle
3 Pernicious Deed

[death]

Finn, if I'm right, the problem was you didn't find your mill lands or Cunning Wish. Animate Dead should've been your "I win now" button. You've proven that Kederekt isn't too good and as reanimation target is even moot. Having a redundant Animate Dead target (Scholar of Athreos or Duskmantle Guildmage) could have won that game.

Jander, if I wanted to play a CMC 3 reanimation spell I'd just pick up TinFins.

[Darkenslight]

Finn, if I'm right, the problem was you didn't find your mill lands or Cunning Wish. Animate Dead should've been your "I win now" button. You've proven that Kederekt isn't too good and as reanimation target is even moot. Having a redundant Animate Dead target (Scholar of Athreos or Duskmantle Guildmage) could have won that game.

Jander, if I wanted to play a CMC 3 reanimation spell I'd just pick up TinFins.

Necromancy allows you to win at instant-speed, something that TinFins can't do. That's a part of the reason why I like a G/B list: you can go off in response to their hate, and you have access to cheap, effective counters to removal in Ranger's Guile and Vines of Vastwood. The risk you take with that approach, however, is that you're not necessarily consistent enough, as you lack the card filtration of the Blue version.

[EunB]

1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
2 Worldgorger Dragon
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Baleful Strix

4 Entomb
4 Animate Dead

4 Force of Will
2 Cunning Wish
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Dig Through Time
1 Intuition
4 Brainstorm

2 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Underground Sea
1 Nephalia Drownyard
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard:
1 Pact of Negation
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Lim-Dûl's Vault
2 Pithing Needle
1 Echoing Truth
2 Massacre
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Thoughtseize

Played this list last night at a local tournament and was crushed. Round 1 vs Deathblade I had a very difficult time sculpting to a perfect hand when he had multiple Brainstorms, Spell Pierces, Swords to Plowshares, Force of Will, Deathrite Shaman and Thoughtseize. I just did not have enough tools to fight through all of his hate.

Round 2 vs Lands (should've been a bye IMO) I ripped his hand apart with Therapy then tried to go off the next turn -- his draw? Abrupt Decay. The Force of Will in my hand laughed silently at me.

Given that maindeck creature hate, Decay, DRS and all the sideboard graveyard & creature hate completely hoses us I'm probably giving up on this deck until someone on the SCG circuit brews something better.

Granted, what I played probably was suboptimal -- I was trying to go for a controlish deck that can combo off when it has the resources -- if I stuck with this line I would probably add Pernicious Deed to control the board a bit more rather than just dying to any creature or being forced to combo too soon. As a Reanimator player this deck seems a lot more difficult to build and play -- I like the challenge of it but it really does seem like trying to jam a round peg into a square hole.

To elaborate a bit more on some of my choices:

- given that the advantage of this deck over reanimator is it takes less space in the deck so can fit more cantrips/hate I ran a very low amount of Dragons and only 4 Animate Dead effects. Replacing Dance of Dead et al with cards like Dig Through Time and Abrupt Decay allowed me (at least I thought) to play a longer game and ensure the combo can win instantly and undisrupted

- decay maindeck was a hedge vs Deathrite Shaman and also allowed us to control the board long enough to combo off -- also good with Snapcaster. I had answers in the board via Cunning Wish but that seemed slow and very vulnerable to countermagic

- Dig Through Time was there to find a wincon after beginning the combo and also to find the combo during the early game

[pfiremc13]

I have little idea what the best sideboard is yet. What you see is a random attempt.

Oona is stuck in my hand because she does nothing to help me go off and is entirely superfluous afterward. She may as well be any random card.

Obv, you use unearth after you have unlimited mana. I bounced a Spirit of the Lab and a Revoker on Oona with it, plus Snapcaster and Animate Dead. I still lost because I had no way to mill that game, but it let me maneuver an extra creature on the board. There is probably an application for that.

Oona/duskmantle/whatever help you win with just an extra entomb. If you have a snapcaster out but can't mill your library, that is quite important.

Say more about what you use leviathan for. If you break the loop with it, you can't win from there unless you have another creature in the yard, right? If you mill your library, what hate cards are you getting around?

[Jander78]

Oona/duskmantle/whatever help you win with just an extra entomb. If you have a snapcaster out but can't mill your library, that is quite important.
You can Entomb for Cunning Wish and win with a Snapcaster Mage in play or in hand. You can also Brainstorm your entire deck with one in the graveyard and a Snapcaster in play.


Jander, if I wanted to play a CMC 3 reanimation spell I'd just pick up TinFins.
As stated before, Necromancy allows this deck to win at instant speed, in response to hate. I don't think anyone is saying this is better than TinFins, it's a different style deck that may or may not work as of yet in Legacy. Time and testing will tell.

[pfiremc13]

You can Entomb for Cunning Wish and win with a Snapcaster Mage in play or in hand.


Fair enough, but it's still nice to be able to win if all you have is an entomb.

[EunB]

You can also Brainstorm your entire deck with one in the graveyard and a Snapcaster in play.

Snapcaster will still exile the Brainstorm, so that won't work.

[death]

Except, Jander, that wouldn't work in Finn's case. He would need 2 SCM + 2 CWish + X Intuition and a Stroke in the sideboard. With an Oona build, you free up 2 slots in the main deck and 1 in the sideboard.

Regarding the FoW/Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy split, I can't argue on that. I guess that depends on what decks you're up against and only the pilot can figure out the perfect mix. My sb includes discard.

I'd like to hear reports from those rocking Baleful Strix, which to me the card is comparable to Coiling Oracle in Aluren. I'm on the Griselbrand camp.

[Jander78]

Snapcaster will still exile the Brainstorm, so that won't work.
Right! My mistake.


Except, Jander, that wouldn't work in Finn's case. He would need 2 SCM + 2 CWish + X Intuition and a Stroke in the sideboard. With an Oona build, you free up 2 slots in the main deck and 1 in the sideboard.

Regarding the FoW/Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy split, I can't argue on that. I guess that depends on what decks you're up against and only the pilot can figure out the perfect mix. My sb includes discard.

I'd like to hear reports from those rocking Baleful Strix, which to me the card is comparable to Coiling Oracle in Aluren. I'm on the Griselbrand camp.
I'm not sure why you would need 2 Snapcaster and 2 Cunning Wish (1+1 works fine too), but you're right that Oona frees up some space. Snapcaster and Cunning Wish are nice because they are actually functional when drawn, but there are good points on Oona stopping the loop with Entomb and saving deck space, so definitely needs more testing.

In the limited testing I've done with Strix, I've really liked it. It provides an early blocker giving you a longer game against certain decks, it's fuel to flashback Therapy, and gives you a decent combo enabler.

[death]

In situations where you are able to go off with Intuition (2 WGD + SCM) and Animate Dead. With WGD in hand, SCM in the yard, loop ends with SCM flashing Intuition back (2 CWish + second copy of SCM).

Shameless plug: [WGD] Ub Cunning Dragon (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29078-WGD-Ub-Cunning-Dragon&p=862653&viewfull=1#post862653).

[Whippoorwill]

Have we considered forbidden alchemy? Or is Intuition just better?


How well can playing for instants from the graveyard instead of a conventional mill permanent work? There's some engine potential:

...
Forbidden Alchemy
...

Two people have brought up this card in the thread, but I don't think anyone responded to it.

I ended up starting with a Grixis build on paper then built UB when I put the actual deck together. I wasn't happy with the result so I went back to Grixis. So far I'm much happier with the results. The deck can win fast, but it also doesn't need to.

Grixis Dragon:
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Shivan Gorge
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta

3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Scholar of Athreos
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
2 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Kederekt Leviathan

3 Thoughtseize

4 Entomb
4 Brainstorm
4 Izzet Charm
3 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Force of Will
2 Dig Through Time

3 Dack Fayden

2 Animate Dead
2 Dance of the Dead
2 Necromancy

Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyroclasm
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sire of Insanity
4 Other

I've only goldfished with the deck at this point, but Forbidden Alchemy has been quite good. I can use it to put things in the graveyard while finding what I may need. It also has Flashback which is useful when comboing off to find another creature or more instants. It also goes quite well with Dig Through Time.

Izzet Charm is there for all 3 modes. It acts as an early counter, kills problematic creatures (Deathrite, Thalia, etc) and filters cards, potentially putting more creatures in the grave.

Dack is there for the looting, but he isn't that important. If I were to cut him, I would replace him with 2 Intuition and 1 Dig Through Time.

6 reanimation spells and 2 Dragons may seem low, but I haven't really had trouble finding them with all the draw/search.

[Finn]

Jander's 75

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize

4 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Worldgorger Dragon

4 Animate Dead
3 Necromancy
4 Entomb

2 Cunning Wish
3 Intuition
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Nephalia Drownyard
2 Duskmantle, House of Shadow


Sideboard:
1 Stroke of Genius
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Misdirection
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Crop Rotation
3 Pithing Needle
3 Pernicious Deed

I like Jander's list a heckuvalot. Jander, I am relieved to hear that you were able to do well without Force of Will. I will gladly cut it. Whippoorwill, your list does basically the same thing, but it is slower at everything. I am not sold on the green splash, but then what the hell do I know. It hinges on a single dual land with such a heavy influx of cards using it, and the land base is so taxed already. Crop Rotation may be better served as Living Wish though. I dunno. Lot of mana needed. Oh, and a Pact of Negation in there maybe. It is hard to know because the combo has weak spots where you don't have access to the board at the right time. I need more experience. But yeah. This looks like how my deck should have been.

[Amon Amarth]

Janders deck looks fucking sweet but the SB seems a bit heavy on the removal.

[Jander78]

I like Jander's list a heckuvalot. Jander, I am relieved to hear that you were able to do well without Force of Will. I will gladly cut it. Whippoorwill, your list does basically the same thing, but it is slower at everything. I am not sold on the green splash, but then what the hell do I know. It hinges on a single dual land with such a heavy influx of cards using it, and the land base is so taxed already. Crop Rotation may be better served as Living Wish though. I dunno. Lot of mana needed. Oh, and a Pact of Negation in there maybe. It is hard to know because the combo has weak spots where you don't have access to the board at the right time. I need more experience. But yeah. This looks like how my deck should have been.
The sideboard definitely needs work. I like the green splash, but if there's better alternatives in U/b, then we should look into those. It's really hard to replace Abrupt Decay, it's just a very strong card to bring in for a lot of matchups. This Misdirection should probably be a Pact of Negation, good call there. I'm definitely open to sideboard suggestions as it needs work. Need more testing to understand matchups and cards that we're weak against and what cards are best suited to handle them. Crop Rotation was in there to win mid-combo against cards like Spirit of the Labyrinth, but that may be a too specific situation to include it.

[Vacrix]

Janders deck looks fucking sweet but the SB seems a bit heavy on the removal.
Not sure if its worth the slot but Entomb and Cabal Therapy means x1 Narcomoeba turns an extra Entomb into +1 Therapy. Also could be in certain situations a surprise blocker for things .. namely Goblin Lackey and unflipped Delver.

[Amon Amarth]

The sideboard definitely needs work. I like the green splash, but if there's better alternatives in U/b, then we should look into those. It's really hard to replace Abrupt Decay, it's just a very strong card to bring in for a lot of matchups. This Misdirection should probably be a Pact of Negation, good call there. I'm definitely open to sideboard suggestions as it needs work. Need more testing to understand matchups and cards that we're weak against and what cards are best suited to handle them. Crop Rotation was in there to win mid-combo against cards like Spirit of the Labyrinth, but that may be a too specific situation to include it.

There is also Slaughter Pact if you wanted to diversify your removal. Stifle is good against Crypts-like effects but unneeded most likely. Coffin Purge is pretty sweet too if you're wanting (not sure Dragon does) wishable GY hate that also has synergy with Intuition.The manabase does look greedy too. An extra Tropical in the MD or SB would help but if you still want to have protection against Surgical Extraction, Bayou might be better.

[Cybey]

I've been very excited about the unbanning of WGD, and have been reading the various threads here, trying to abuse him. Mainly, I'm wondering how we cope with a surgical extraction. Is there still a path to victory when the dragons are in exile? I remember that in Tin Fins (in the earlier days) we were experimenting with Pull from Eternity, which could in fact be a Cunning Wish target. However, that would require a white splash of course, which I don't think the current manabase can support without being too greedy.

[Darkenslight]

I've been very excited about the unbanning of WGD, and have been reading the various threads here, trying to abuse him. Mainly, I'm wondering how we cope with a surgical extraction. Is there still a path to victory when the dragons are in exile? I remember that in Tin Fins (in the earlier days) we were experimenting with Pull from Eternity, which could in fact be a Cunning Wish target. However, that would require a white splash of course, which I don't think the current manabase can support without being too greedy.

You can change 8 lands out of the manabase for 4 Gemstone Mines and 4 Tendo Ice Bridge, which have an added bonus during the combo turn, as neither ETBT, which gives you added flexibility in the combo turn, but are slightly weaker until you go off. Then you can go a BUG base with Wishable targets in the board, such as KGrip and Wipe Away and Pull from Eternity, or Silence. IT's an interesting thing to do, to be sure.

[Finn]

RE: 2 colors vs 3 colors

I think we are going to be using Gemstone Mines all up more often than the decks that find that card useful. Plus, fetchlands are very important in the world of Brainstorm. I think that if you go three colors, you are opening yourself to getting owned by Wasteland and company, and there is no way around that. Even with Jander's post-board splash only (which is a part-time splash), you saw us poking at the manabase for being closer to solid game 1 at the expense of teetering on the edge post-board.

Considering that we are leaning heavily on having the third piece of the combo be a happenstance sort of card (a.k.a. "a land"), and I feel pretty strongly that this is the best approach, I think you have to sell your soul to accommodate three colors with such a design. Death and Taxes is nearly certain to destroy this deck no matter what, but with three colors, you open the deck up to random game 1 victories by Goblins and Lands and whatever.

Deed and Decay are really the top rung of removal, but if this is where we start in the meta (losing commonly to mana denial), I think the deck is already out of tier 1 before other weaknesses are even discussed. And forget eschewing blue. You would be bringing a knife to a gun fight if you do that. So I suspect that we will have to explore options within those colors.

RE: Extirpate and company
I suppose you could Cunning Wish for Living Wish and have the 4th Dragon in the board. And frankly, Living Wish in the main deck seems kinda handy come to think of it, but, omg no. I bet we have to treat these cards just like Stifle, STP, Abrupt Decay, other instant-speed answers. You simply must force the opponent to discard these cards before going off. Honestly though, it is not a big deal. Look at the build we are fooling with at the moment. There is a whole lot of discard in there. Remember that the Therapies should average nabbing two cards per use when you consider flashback, Probe, etc. It's a lot.

[Surfinbird]

WGD combo made top16 in a 81 players tournament!

list here: http://www.eternalcatala.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=2711

[Kagehisa]

Fair enough, but it's still nice to be able to win if all you have is an entomb.

Entomb for Mystical Teaching.
Mystical Teaching for Cunning Wish (or Snapcaster Mage).
Cunning Wish for the kill.

[pfiremc13]

Entomb for Mystical Teaching.
Mystical Teaching for Cunning Wish (or Snapcaster Mage).
Cunning Wish for the kill.

I'm talking about Finn's list, which doesn't have mystical teachings

[Kagehisa]

I am suggesting Mystical Teachings, that's all.

[Jander78]

RE: 2 colors vs 3 colors

I think we are going to be using Gemstone Mines all up more often than the decks that find that card useful. Plus, fetchlands are very important in the world of Brainstorm. I think that if you go three colors, you are opening yourself to getting owned by Wasteland and company, and there is no way around that. Even with Jander's post-board splash only (which is a part-time splash), you saw us poking at the manabase for being closer to solid game 1 at the expense of teetering on the edge post-board.

Considering that we are leaning heavily on having the third piece of the combo be a happenstance sort of card (a.k.a. "a land"), and I feel pretty strongly that this is the best approach, I think you have to sell your soul to accommodate three colors with such a design. Death and Taxes is nearly certain to destroy this deck no matter what, but with three colors, you open the deck up to random game 1 victories by Goblins and Lands and whatever.

Deed and Decay are really the top rung of removal, but if this is where we start in the meta (losing commonly to mana denial), I think the deck is already out of tier 1 before other weaknesses are even discussed. And forget eschewing blue. You would be bringing a knife to a gun fight if you do that. So I suspect that we will have to explore options within those colors.

RE: Extirpate and company
I suppose you could Cunning Wish for Living Wish and have the 4th Dragon in the board. And frankly, Living Wish in the main deck seems kinda handy come to think of it, but, omg no. I bet we have to treat these cards just like Stifle, STP, Abrupt Decay, other instant-speed answers. You simply must force the opponent to discard these cards before going off. Honestly though, it is not a big deal. Look at the build we are fooling with at the moment. There is a whole lot of discard in there. Remember that the Therapies should average nabbing two cards per use when you consider flashback, Probe, etc. It's a lot.
Honestly, I think sticking to U/b is probably the way to go. Green adds some nice removal options, but drawing that Trop (and / or Bayou) is always annoying in opening hands of Trop + Drownyard x2. I think switching out Deed / Decay for Engineered Explosives / Massacre, might be a good start. Also, Living Wish is a sorcery, so there will be no CWishing for it! :)

Something like this:
1 Stroke of Genius
3 Massacre
1 Dismember
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Wipe Away
1 Pact of Negation
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Explosives

[kihachi]

Unlike the other builds I've posted here, this one comes in with zero testing. However, it struck me that since the combo doesn't take up too many cards in the deck at a minimum, a "Young Frankenstein"-type build might be possible. I couldn't fit Young Pyro or any red at all into the deck since green is such a better 3rd color for the sideboard, but here it is:

Creatures (14)

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Baleful Strix
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 Griselbrand

Spells (28)

4 Entomb
4 Animate Dead
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Daze

Land (18)

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard (15)

4 Abrupt Decay
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Pithing Needle
3 Cabal Therapy

Basically you are U/B tempo and beat down with Delver and Tasigur, but you can instant-win with either double Entomb + Animate Dead, or with Entomb + Animate Dead + (Strix in play or Tasigur in play or Tasigur in graveyard). Or you can pull a quick Griselbrand reanimation if you don't have the Dragon win. Post-board you can either sideboard out your 11 reanimator cards for decays, TNNs, Deeds and a Therapy, or you can side in any of the non-TNN cards as anti-hate cards if you're going to need to win with the reanimation plan.

It kind of reminds me of a Vintage-style deck that can win via multiple avenues utilizing a few powerful cards, but I'll have to wait until I can get home and test it to see if it even feels viable. I just like that Tasigur gives you an infinite-mana-dump that can win after the Dragon loop comes on, or he does a decent impression of Tarmogoyf otherwise.

[leegoo]

Not sure if anyone mentioned it, but playing around with Vintage Dragon last night it came up that Dig Through Time let's you stop the combo after making ~ mana.

[death]

Any instant actually, but one must also assess each card's value pre-mana infinitum.

[Amon Amarth]

Honestly, I think sticking to U/b is probably the way to go. Green adds some nice removal options, but drawing that Trop (and / or Bayou) is always annoying in opening hands of Trop + Drownyard x2. I think switching out Deed / Decay for Engineered Explosives / Massacre, might be a good start. Also, Living Wish is a sorcery, so there will be no CWishing for it! :)

Something like this:
1 Stroke of Genius
3 Massacre
1 Dismember
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Wipe Away
1 Pact of Negation
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Explosives

Toxic Deluge is probably better than Massacre unless all you expect is D&T. Deluge is faster and hits bigger creatures and much easier to cast and the lifeloss is negligible.

[Finn]

Any instant actually, but one must also assess each card's value pre-mana infinitum.

I think he means that you can eat the dragon. Cool observation.

[leegoo]

Any instant actually, but one must also assess each card's value pre-mana infinitum.

right, but not any instant lets you stop the loop.

The situation I was in was that I had Oona in hand, dragon in gy, animate in hand, but no Bazaar/loot effect. So making ~ mana then stopping the combo to hardcast/use Oona got there.

It's corner case for the most part, but Dig is a card I'm not embarrassed to have in my deck other times so extra value is extra value.

[death]

It eats Dragon, right, that's precisely why it's a nonbo, uncastable pre-combo but if your testing shows otherwise then maybe I'm wrong. I'm saying Intuition (and Cunning Wish) is better. If you have 4 non-Dragon creatures in the deck you can make Intuition piles.

In my opinion, DTT is too narrow. In that situation, true, it's applicable, you stop the loop, dig for Nephalia and that's all she wrote. But how good is it pre-combo?

[leegoo]

It eats Dragon, right, that's precisely why it's a nonbo, uncastable pre-combo but if your testing shows otherwise then maybe I'm wrong. I'm saying Intuition (and Cunning Wish) is better. If you have 4 non-Dragon creatures in the deck you can make Intuition piles.

In my opinion, DTT is too narrow. In that situation, true, it's applicable, you stop the loop, dig for Nephalia and that's all she wrote. But how good is it pre-combo?

well, I think 100% of the time I'd rather have dig than wish in my 75... intuition is about on the same power level. I think a 3 mana spell that eats up sideboard slots and is pretty bad when you're losing isn't worth a spot, but YMMV. Intuition is probably about as useful as dig a good portion of the time, but again if we're assuming this isn't an "all in" deck then I'd rather pick 2/7 as opposed to getting 1/3 in times I'm not comboing. If it is an all in build, I'd suggest not running many of any of them.

[Finn]

It eats Dragon, right, that's precisely why it's a nonbo, uncastable pre-combo but if your testing shows otherwise then maybe I'm wrong. I'm saying Intuition (and Cunning Wish) is better. If you have 4 non-Dragon creatures in the deck you can make Intuition piles.

In my opinion, DTT is too narrow. In that situation, true, it's applicable, you stop the loop, dig for Nephalia and that's all she wrote. But how good is it pre-combo?
Wait. Dig Through Time is uncastable pre-combo? What? In what world? Careful Study is not good right now, but it is possible that a build with Digs and Studies might be good.

[death]

Dig is antisynergistic in a deck that wants creatures/spells in the yard for their reanimation spells or Snapcaster Mage to work.

At this point I want to quote Philipp: That's not how deckbuilding works.


Toxic Deluge is probably better than Massacre unless all you expect is D&T. Deluge is faster and hits bigger creatures and much easier to cast and the lifeloss is negligible.

Massacre is free to cast and lifeloss matters in his deck, he runs 4 Probes and 4 Thoughtseizes.

[MaximumC]

Dig is antisynergistic in a deck that wants creatures/spells in the yard for their reanimation spells or Snapcaster Mage to work.


That's a load of hooey. You don't delve away your Worldgorger, and you can afford to remove just about everything else. This deck isn't trying to load up the yard with a million cards, just get one particular card into the yard. Dig is no more "anti-synergistic" with Dragon combo than Treasure Cruise or Dig were "anti-synergistic" with themselves.

[Finn]

Dig is antisynergistic in a deck that wants creatures/spells in the yard for their reanimation spells or Snapcaster Mage to work.

At this point I want to quote Philipp: That's not how deckbuilding works.



Massacre is free to cast and lifeloss matters in his deck, he runs 4 Probes and 4 Thoughtseizes.
You have to get past that perception because it is not true. Tarmo and Deathrite are fine together. So are Lavamancer and Tombstalker. Good decks use good cards. That fact trumps most cases of apparent antisynergy. I learned this the hard way.

Dig can be made to work with some proper card choices.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

You have to get past that perception because it is not true. Tarmo and Deathrite are fine together. So are Lavamancer and Tombstalker. Good decks use good cards. That fact trumps most cases of apparent antisynergy. I learned this the hard way.

Dig can be made to work with some proper card choices.

Yeah but if you have to make it work with bad cards -> Careful Study; its no longer "Good decks use good cards"

Imho DTT is just a bit overkill. By the time you can cast DTT you already played a bunch of cantrips, so you should have found your missing combo piece already!
Still it might be good to come back if everything got countered BUT If you face graveyard hate and you want to search for an answer I rather have some ponders...

[death]

Er, Goyf and DRS belong to entirely different decks and interact differently. They're cheap permanents and neither one use delve.

If DTT is such a good card, then why aren't we seeing it in Reanimator and TinFins?

[rufus]

...

Imho DTT is just a bit overkill. By the time you can cast DTT you already played a bunch of cantrips, so you should have found your missing combo piece already!
Still it might be good to come back if everything got countered BUT If you face graveyard hate and you want to search for an answer I rather have some ponders...

I'd think it depends on the approach you take to filling the graveyard. DTT should be stronger in decks that use bulk graveyard fillers like Faithless Looting or Breakthrough and less synergetic with tutor-like stuff along the lines of Entomb or Gamble.

[leegoo]

If DTT is such a good card, then why aren't we seeing it in Reanimator and TinFins?

I'd ask you the same on intuition or cunning wish ;)

But to actually answer, it's because you are comparing this deck to reanimator/tinfins, when you should be comparing it to something like omnitell. Just because you use reanimating a dragon to win doesn't mean you are a reanimator deck.

- again, I'm not saying I have the optimal build, or that intuition (or possibly even wish) aren't fine in the deck... just that I'd have to have a very good reason not to play with cards that are better a good portion of the time as opposed to cards that are a little better when I'm winning.

[EunB]

Er, Goyf and DRS belong to entirely different decks and interact differently. They're cheap permanents and neither one use delve.

If DTT is such a good card, then why aren't we seeing it in Reanimator and TinFins?

Reanimator and Tin Fins are both looking to "go off" turn 1 or turn 2, they don't have the ability to stock the graveyard to take advantage of DTT.

If you're playing the Dark Ritual / Lotus Petal version of Worldgorger than you also wouldn't want DTT, but I think we've pretty clearly established that that version is pretty much worse than both the aforementioned decks.

If we're building toward the idea that our combo is compact and thus can fit into a shell, we're acknowledging the game is going to move beyond the first few turns and can include cards like DTT which take advantage of the fact that we're filling our GY with things like cantrips and fetchlands.

Dig serves the same role in our deck as it does in Omnitell -- acts as another spell that works towards assembling the combo while also providing a fairly reliable method of finding the wincon after your combo is up and running. DTT has completely revitalized Omnitell, so I don't think it should be so quickly dismissed in a deck like ours that also seeks to sculpt a perfect hand for a one-turn win.

[death]

LOL. WGD is soft to removal but it's not strictly worse. Each has merits and I'd pick WGD over the other two anytime.

Now Omni-Tell, again, it's a combo deck that doesn't need resources in the graveyard. Different decks, different strokes.

This is my last post. In case you want to try my builds feel free to drop by the other threads. I already broke Worldgorger since last week. Good luck and happy deck building.

Let us let the results speak for themselves. Thank you.

[leegoo]

I already broke Worldgorger since last week. Good luck and happy deck building.

Let us let the results speak for themselves. Thank you.

They say you can't have a discussion if one person has all the answers ;) But yes, congrats on breaking the card.

[Koby]

If DTT is such a good card, then why aren't we seeing it in Reanimator and TinFins?

I'll bite. Because DTT is too slow for these decks. Entomb is one helluva card. It doesn't need or want to commit to long-term plans when it can just win you the game. Right here. Right now. For a single :b: mana.

[Richard Cheese]

I already broke Worldgorger since last week. Good luck and happy deck building.

Let us let the results speak for themselves. Thank you.

http://media0.giphy.com/media/149R89yoMrIFgI/giphy.gif

[nodahero]

Has anyone considered Noxious Revival et. al as a way to turn Entomb into a pseudo vampiric tutor? Not ideal, I know however, it is an avenue to explore I think.

[rufus]

Has anyone considered Noxious Revival et. al as a way to turn Entomb into a pseudo vampiric tutor? Not ideal, I know however, it is an avenue to explore I think.

You'd have to be holding Noxious Revival and Entomb to make that work, that seems like a big investment. I think something like Mystical Teachings or Snapcaster Mage seem like better ways to do that sort of thing that also fit well with the rest of the deck.

[Zupponn]

I've been thinking about WGD in some kind of Jund list. You can have access to Punishing Fire and Grove combo for both value early and it could be your kill during the Dragon loop. Maybe add Crop Rotation and Shivan Gorge too? Depths/Stage as an additional combo plan? I have little idea what kind of shell would be best, but I would find it funny if someone just pulled the kill out of nowhere in a grindy matchup or something.

[leegoo]

This is what I've been messing around with. I don't think it's broken anything, but it's pretty consistent with a non-gy dependent SB strategy. You're looking at being a pretty consistent T3 deck with occasional t2's.
The goal is to play the minimum amount of "bad" cards, with Study probably being the worst.


*This list was made with PAPER magic in mind. (that is, drawing the game is an option, which isn't possible on MTGO) Although I think it's fine for online as well. You have 11 ways to stop your combo + 4 brainstorm to search for entomb or dig which can stop the loop after making ~ mana. If you're on that plan (online) make sure you don't play a land if you don't have to, as that opens up Dig<Drownyard as a kill.

SB'ing... bring in all 15, with the obvious 14 cuts + a drownyard/study.

Again, just another place to start brewing. Cheers.

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s300/leegoocrap/dragon_zps8bc8077b.jpg

*edit for list
Land (19)
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Nephelia Drownyard
1 Temple of Deceit

Creatures (4)
1 Oona
3 Worldgorger Dragon

Protection (10)
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will

Reanimation (6)
2 Animate Dead
2 Dance of the Dead
2 Necromancy

Setup (21)
4 Entomb
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Careful Study
3 Dig Through Time
2 Gitaxian Probe

SB
4 Doomsday
4 Dark Ritual
4 SDT
1 Emrakul
1 SDI
1 Lab Man

[Finn]

With the ability of Dig to both end the Dragon loop and look at 7 for a wincon, it starts to look like a wincon itself. It is also a strong card to set up the combo anyway, so I am starting to think we seriously need to have some in the deck. That means a design that makes little effort to go off on turn 2.

Leegoo, I can't entirely make out what all those cards are, but I see four Drownyards. Did you get enough testing in to see if those are fwacking your manabase? ANd did you have any trouble delving Digs?

[leegoo]

Being straight U/B you get pretty good mana even running 4 colorless lands. Wastelands are never good for combo decks, but being as this deck isn't balls to the wall fast to start with it's reasonable to fetch basics. Sea + Drownyard is enough (if tedious online) to combo off. The Temple looks odd but I wanted another land that had an effect and produced U/B. Stacking the top card of your library isn't useless as it turns brainstorm/dig in hand into an entomb guaranteed. It's worth noting that it does cipt so you need another (non-drownyard) land to make the mana loop work.

As for dig, in *fast* games you have unlimited mana, so it does a (admittedly slightly worse) job imitating intuition/cunning wish. In long games you have more than enough fetches/cantrips to fuel multiple digs.

[Jander78]

Being straight U/B you get pretty good mana even running 4 colorless lands. Wastelands are never good for combo decks, but being as this deck isn't balls to the wall fast to start with it's reasonable to fetch basics. Sea + Drownyard is enough (if tedious online) to combo off. The Temple looks odd but I wanted another land that had an effect and produced U/B. Stacking the top card of your library isn't useless as it turns brainstorm/dig in hand into an entomb guaranteed. It's worth noting that it does cipt so you need another (non-drownyard) land to make the mana loop work.

As for dig, in *fast* games you have unlimited mana, so it does a (admittedly slightly worse) job imitating intuition/cunning wish. In long games you have more than enough fetches/cantrips to fuel multiple digs.
Temple of Deceit enters the battlefield tapped and doesn't work with the combo to generate mana. It's a dead draw if it's your only color producing source.

EDIT: I failed to read that you mention this in your post. I still wouldn't play it due to the fact that it can make Wasteland extremely strong against you.

[btm10]

This Misdirection should probably be a Pact of Negation, good call there...

I get wanting a Pact, but it seems like Misdirection is important to going off against BGx decks unless you're trying to kill at TinFins speed. Getting hit by Abrupt Decay is so bad that I feel like specific hate is required. I realize that the deck packs plenty of discard, but discard doesn't protect you from topdecked Decays, Brainstorm in response to the exile trigger, or Snapcaster Mage on Decay while you're milling them. I feel like you at least want a Divert, but I could be totally wrong in my assumptions here. Is it just too hard to cast MisD? Or is it too narrow? With Strix around (and being good with the loop) it seems like ensuring that a second Decay target is present wouldn't be an issue.

[leegoo]

Temple of Deceit enters the battlefield tapped and doesn't work with the combo to generate mana. It's a dead draw if it's your only color producing source.

EDIT: I failed to read that you mention this in your post. I still wouldn't play it due to the fact that it can make Wasteland extremely strong against you.

you may be right, but I think 4 land that help you win the game is a little low and I'd prefer a land that is good pre-combo (as opposed to the other mill land) you're right it's bad vs. wasteland, but wasteland is going to be something you have to play around regardless if you're using your lands to win/set up a win.

What we will have to test more is whether the corner cases where wasteland gets it are more important than the corner cases it sets up a win with brainstorm/dig... both being rare I would guess.

[Jander78]

I get wanting a Pact, but it seems like Misdirection is important to going off against BGx decks unless you're trying to kill at TinFins speed. Getting hit by Abrupt Decay is so bad that I feel like specific hate is required. I realize that the deck packs plenty of discard, but discard doesn't protect you from topdecked Decays, Brainstorm in response to the exile trigger, or Snapcaster Mage on Decay while you're milling them. I feel like you at least want a Divert, but I could be totally wrong in my assumptions here. Is it just too hard to cast MisD? Or is it too narrow? With Strix around (and being good with the loop) it seems like ensuring that a second Decay target is present wouldn't be an issue.
Good point, but I would never go off blind (no Duress/Therapy/Probe) against an opponent that has G/B available, which is why I don't buy into reactive disruption in this deck. The combo is really too fragile to go off blind most of the time in the face of removal / bounce.


you may be right, but I think 4 land that help you win the game is a little low and I'd prefer a land that is good pre-combo (as opposed to the other mill land) you're right it's bad vs. wasteland, but wasteland is going to be something you have to play around regardless if you're using your lands to win/set up a win.

What we will have to test more is whether the corner cases where wasteland gets it are more important than the corner cases it sets up a win with brainstorm/dig... both being rare I would guess.
I just don't like having a 5th dead land in my deck. Hands of Temple + Drownyard, that have the combo pieces, would normally be a decent hand with a fetch or USea, but with Temple you're forced to mulligan.

[leegoo]

yeah there's certainly a downside.

I don't think with the dig in this deck (and the scry itself) I'd mulligan those two lands in hand though... you're still fine for t3, but if you don't like it don't play it. It's certainly 1 card that doesn't have a huge impact either way. Also this list has ~15 games in... there's no way most/any of it is optimal.

[Di]

I get wanting a Pact, but it seems like Misdirection is important to going off against BGx decks unless you're trying to kill at TinFins speed. Getting hit by Abrupt Decay is so bad that I feel like specific hate is required. I realize that the deck packs plenty of discard, but discard doesn't protect you from topdecked Decays, Brainstorm in response to the exile trigger, or Snapcaster Mage on Decay while you're milling them. I feel like you at least want a Divert, but I could be totally wrong in my assumptions here. Is it just too hard to cast MisD? Or is it too narrow? With Strix around (and being good with the loop) it seems like ensuring that a second Decay target is present wouldn't be an issue.

That's still a bit narrow, and the card disadvantage is tough. If you're looking for an answer that's narrow, odds are it's always weaker to an additional discard spell. Does anyone even run a full set of Therapy/Seize in the 75 yet?

Otherwise, there's still Xantid Swarm. They can waste their Decay on that, or they can just lose.

[Finn]

Re: Leegoo's list, I could not figure out how he fit everything until I realized that he does not have any support creatures. I can't see going that route in the long run. Cabal therapy really wants some creatures. Both Snappy and Strix have merit beyond that, so I am pretty sure I would just trim out the Forces for some and admit that we are depending on discard. Also, with three Digs, we can afford to diversify. The deck seriously wants a Careful Study effect so that Dragons are not dead in hand. Two of these seems wise. The card advantage won't feel bad if you are holding Dig. I bet there is something else, a one-of that we could dare to include with such powerful search capability.

[LennonMarx]

Re: Leegoo's list, I could not figure out how he fit everything until I realized that he does not have any support creatures. I can't see going that route in the long run. Cabal therapy really wants some creatures. Both Snappy and Strix have merit beyond that, so I am pretty sure I would just trim out the Forces for some and admit that we are depending on discard. Also, with three Digs, we can afford to diversify. The deck seriously wants a Careful Study effect so that Dragons are not dead in hand. Two of these seems wise. The card advantage won't feel bad if you are holding Dig. I bet there is something else, a one-of that we could dare to include with such powerful search capability.

I have been playing a 1-of Crippling Fatigue (without Digs) but I'm not sure I have enough games in to know if it's worth it. It gets boarded out a lot, but it's an Entomb-able card that can create windows to go off through a Dreathrite Shaman. It could be that just having a 3rd Necromancy is better at that, though.

Also, last night I played something very close to Jander's main deck (-1 Dragon +1 Crippling Fatigue) in my local weekly. Ended up going 3-1. Beat Death and Taxes, Goblins, and Elves, lost to AnT. The only match up with DRS was elves and I was able to discard them before I had to try to play through them. Of note, though, the Intuitions and Cunning Wishes are painfully slow. I think I used Intuition as a set-up card once all night, and never as a tutor for 3 Animate spells (I had the ability to do that against Elves, but I just died that turn instead :frown:). Cunning wish was only ever was used to win the game, and I used Intuition as a win card a few times (for Snapcaster, Wish, X while looping). I plan on doing some MODO testing of something like leegoo DTT list tonight (my take on it posted below). My concerns are 1) Are 4 Entombs enough to get Dragons into the yard from the library; 1a) With only 2 dragons + Oona, are 2 Careful Study worth playing; 2) Once we go off how hard is it to actually win; 3) 6, 7, or 8 animate spells.

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Nephelia Drownyard

1 Oona
2 Worldgorger Dragon
4 Baleful Strix

3 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Crippling Fatigue

2 Animate Dead
2 Dance of the Dead
2 Necromancy

4 Entomb
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Careful Study
3 Dig Through Time
4 Gitaxian Probe

SB
1 Tropical
1 Bayou
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Pithing Needle
3 Chain of Vapor

[nodahero]

Small knitpick, did we determine last night in talking Lennon that Scholar of Athreos would be strictly better than Oona?

Additionally, address your concern about Entomb and 2 Dragons, isn't it possible that is simply better to play an Inution then? Fetch 2 Dragon and X and go off that way? In this instance I suppose your build from last night is just better then the list you posted however, the inution then fights with Dig Through Time... so Yea, I'm not really sure where to go.

[LennonMarx]

Small knitpick, did we determine last night in talking Lennon that Scholar of Athreos would be strictly better than Oona?

Additionally, address your concern about Entomb and 2 Dragons, isn't it possible that is simply better to play an Inution then? Fetch 2 Dragon and X and go off that way? In this instance I suppose your build from last night is just better then the list you posted however, the inution then fights with Dig Through Time... so Yea, I'm not really sure where to go.

Regarding the nitpick, yes, Scholar is better at the combo kill, but in a version of the deck with Careful study there is some chance that you just end up reanimating Oona as a 6/6 (or 5/6 or 7/7) that beats down and makes friends. That seems more likely than losing to Leyline of Sanctity, though I could be wrong.

Regarding Intuition vs. Dig, that's what I want to try out with that build. Having 5 slots in the deck set aside for Intuition + Wish, and then some snapcasters felt kind of clunky. But I could see just playing like 2 Intuitions as some extra redundancy.

[leegoo]

the deciding factors on scholar vs. Oona (to me)

Scholar is better against Leyline of Sanctity specifically (outside possibly some corner enchantress shenanigans.) and I suppose the situation where burn is tapped out on your turn but can kill you before they draw a card the next turn.

Oona is better if you just need to reanimate something and beat down. It's also pitchable to FoW, and while I think that's normally a weak excuse, it will eventually come up if you play both.

So... test both!

[leegoo]

After playing some more games last night, I think splashing Red is necessary. Currently on -4 study +4 izzet charm in the main, with some land cuts to add Volcanic and lighthouse > temple.

Reason: Game 1 is very tough against a resolved Deathrite. Charm does a good job as looting and kills a resolved shaman. Unless there is a U/B card that does a good impersonation that I'm not thinking of.

[FakeSpam]

After playing some more games last night, I think splashing Red is necessary. Currently on -4 study +4 izzet charm in the main, with some land cuts to add Volcanic and lighthouse > temple.

Reason: Game 1 is very tough against a resolved Deathrite. Charm does a good job as looting and kills a resolved shaman. Unless there is a U/B card that does a good impersonation that I'm not thinking of.

Dimir Charm.

[nodahero]

Dimir Charm does an eh impersonation of Izzet Charm.

[Searys]

Yep but it's b/u when izzet charm is r/u, imho the deck can only be viable playing two color, more than that and he becames a prey to wasteland (and to unstability, you play 4 lands who only produce :1: ...)

If we play the deck like a reanimator, we have some solution for a tutor, either we play intuition (wich is far better than cunning wish), either we play lim-duls vault (but, a list packing vault need to play probe/ponder/brainstorm imo) or dig through time, but this one need a more control version i think (6 cards in your grave is not that low plus if we play cabal therapy and snapcaster it's anti-synergic.)

The other solution i found was to play 3 grisel/3 dragons (or 4 it's how you feel it) 4 entomb/ 4 careful study without other tutors (and it was working pretty smoothly) but the problem is you can't kill during the turn you reanimate griselbrand (but 99% chances to kill the turn after)

[leegoo]

Dimir Charm does an eh impersonation of Izzet Charm.

I'm willing to try Dimir Charm in the spot. Looting effect on Izzet is a lot better than Dimir's mode though, as is the counter mode. May still not be worth it vs. adding a 3rd color though.

[ShawnWilliams]

Here are a few other cards I've experimented with in Vintage Dragon we might want to consider:

Dimir Guildmage, Duskmantle Guildmage; Both can be placed in the graveyard and Animated back as a win condition, like Oona, Queen of the Fae. Duskmantle as a win condition can be used as an instant, where Dimir would make someone draw their whole deck as a sorcery. The only slight advantage of these 2 is they could be hardcast early and be used as chump blockers or even though the Dimir abilities are fairly expensive it could offer some minor utility in a game before a dragon loop.

Squee, Goblin Nabob; Works best with Legacy banned Bazaar of Baghdad, but with enough Careful Study type cards I could see Squee being used to keep card disadvantage to a minimum.

Street Wraith; It can be cycled early and then be in the yard as a creature to Animate and break the dragon loop if needed, say if Oona or something is in your hand and needs to be hardcasted or some sorcery speed win condition needs the dragon loop to be broken to work.

Mulldrifter; Same as Street Wraith, it can be Evoked early to draw a few cards and then be an Animation creature target to break a dragon loop. And if Mulldrifter is in play and the dragon loop is started it is also a strong draw engine that can find Entomb or other win conditions. In drawn out games I've also occasionally Evoked Mulldrifter then Animated it just to draw a few cards.

Deep Analysis; Another card that works well with Bazaars, but they also ain't bad with Careful Study and can be pretty strong with Intuition.

[Searys]

To speak franckly i don't think one of those cards could be used, it's clearly suboptimal, the sole who could be discussed is duskmantle guildmage, but oona is better because it's a big body you can reanimate.

Generally you prefer not playing it before the combo because a STP on it and you have no kill left...

It depends of your list but with mine it's extremely rare to have difficulties for breaking the loop.

[ShawnWilliams]

Possible decklist:

(20)
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
2 Swamp

4 Lotus Petal

(12)
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
3 Worldgorger Dragon

4 Baleful Strix
4 Dark Confidant

(6)
2 Animate Dead
2 Dance of the Dead
2 Necromancy

(22)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Entomb
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Careful Study
4 Gitaxian Probe


SB
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Gravecrawler
3 Hymn to Tourach



For a transformational sideboard I could see:
-4 Entomb
-3 Worldgorger Dragon
-1 Oona
-6 animate cards
-1 Careful Study

The deck above is probably too light on disruption, but Dark Confidants could push for a stronger late game, and useful in games 2 and 3 - transformational or not.

[LOLWut]

Carsten Kotter on SCG site: Enter the Dragon (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30214_Enter-The-Dragon.html)


And then, suddenly, I knew what Dragon wanted to be: the way a combo control deck ends the game.
Desolate Lighthouse
Snapcaster Mage
Dig Through Time
Lightning Bolt
Entomb
Thoughtseize
Cunning Wish
Griselbrand
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Necromancy


In short, just from playing a couple of games with what should by all rights still be a rough brew, Enter The Dragon felt not just viable but actually like a top tier deck. It just exploits the inherent dynamics of a Legacy game exceedingly well in spite of being built around an interaction that seems both clunky and extremely vulnerable. I'm super excited to get to play more with the deck, and if it keeps playing out the way it has, there's a good chance it might even displace Storm as my deck of choice for important events (and if you follow this column, you all know how unlikely that is to happen).

Boom.

[leegoo]

interesting read... lighthouse just has to be wrong though. Drownyard is your primary win condition against most decks. Having to add extra win condition cards to run lighthouse doesn't make much sense though.

Crazy you can remove dragon with dig to break up the combo right ;)

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Didn't want to write anything here before to not spoiler the content of my article today ;) A couple of things I'm quite convinced of:

1) Going for speed with WGD pretty much leaves you with a worse Tin Fins (or possibly Reanimator) list by default. While it might produce a viable deck - what you're doing is close enough to Reanimator that it should win a reasonable amount after all - I don't see it ever being an optimal deckchoice as long as big daddy demon is still legal.

2) Not having at least a single Griselbrand in any WGD deck is foolhardy at best. The loop is super vulnerable so you want an alternative if you have the pieces for an early reanimation attempt but no way to make sure it's safe. Griselbrand provides that while also often winning the game when you're missing the third piece to actually take advantage of your infinite mana loop.

3) Because of those vulnerabilities and the fundamental inferiority of the speed strategy to other decks, you want to build this deck as close to a control deck as possible while maintaining enough speed to force the opponent to respect the t2-3 kill for the leverage it provides (which also allows you to goldfish decks that can't interact a reasonable amount of the time).

4) Building this close to a control deck means running removal because let's face it, Legacy has enough creature threats worth caring about when you need to deal with every single piece of your opponent's interaction. I'd love to just make those cards Baleful Strix (awesome find!) but Deathrite Shaman in particular is a huge headache if you plan to give your opponent's some amount of turns in the majority of games seeing as the deck can't even play around it because every single reanimation effect we can run targets. That means we need at least a couple of pieces of actual removal imo.

Going into more detail and talking about my implementation of these ideas in the article (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30214_Enter-The-Dragon.html), but those are the fundamental points I think we need to keep in mind if we want to actually try and break WGD. I'm reasonably sure any list that doesn't fulfill these requirements will just end up being inferior to existing other archetypes.

/edit: Well, others posting about the article here before I'm even done writing this post requires the ninja-edit ;)


lighthouse just has to be wrong though. Drownyard is your primary win condition against most decks. Having to add extra win condition cards to run lighthouse doesn't make much sense though.
I like Loothouse much more than Drownyard exactly because it's much more than just a wincon. It's a great utility card to help you set up and play control in the first place, which I think is the way this deck needs to be approached. Even the extra wincons I've added are actually great utility cards for the deck with Snapcasters being nutty good anyway and Cunning Wish a little clunky but a good tool to deal with unexpected situations. We could have the same ability to safely exile Oona by running a single additional wincon maindeck and cutting the Wishes, too, if they feel bad enough after more testing.

[leegoo]

As far as wish goes... what scenario are you casting it that it's going to progress the game that just maindeck stroke of genius (i'm not supporting maindeck stroke btw) won't do? It's pretty ambitious to expect to resolve wish<entomb against any relevant matchup I would think. Maybe if it could find both halves of the combo (I guess that's an argument for intuition in the board? But then you're spending 6+ mana) but I think as it stands it's just making your SB worse for no real benefit.

I'm fine having lighthouse in the deck if you want it, but alongside drownyards. Expecting to loot very often when you aren't comboing just doesn't seem likely. This deck can play the control game a fair amount, but I don't think you have time to durdle around the same way a "real" control deck does.

[YamiJoey]

If you go Grixis, your Win should be 4 Burning Wish and a Past in Flames, right?

[H]

If you go Grixis, your Win should be 4 Burning Wish and a Past in Flames, right?

How do you figure? You can't cast any of those with your infinite mana unless you have broken the loop and if you broke the loop, you should have won already...

[YamiJoey]

So in this Grixis deck are you expecting your win to be Animate Dragon, Loothouse, Oona? (Just so I'm perfectly clear.)

Because adding "5, t: Don't do anything" seems just as bad as any of the other suggestions. At least the UB ones are A) On colour, and B) Kill any non-Eldrazi wielding opponent on the spot. I get that Faithless Looting and Izzet Charm are both also cards, but being 3-colours and attempting to cast Izzet Charms and Black Spells is pretty ambitious in a format where Wasteland and Stifle are actually not terrible options again.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

As far as wish goes... what scenario are you casting it that it's going to progress the game that just maindeck stroke of genius (i'm not supporting maindeck stroke btw) won't do? It's pretty ambitious to expect to resolve wish<entomb against any relevant matchup I would think. Maybe if it could find both halves of the combo (I guess that's an argument for intuition in the board? But then you're spending 6+ mana) but I think as it stands it's just making your SB worse for no real benefit.

I'm fine having lighthouse in the deck if you want it, but alongside drownyards. Expecting to loot very often when you aren't comboing just doesn't seem likely. This deck can play the control game a fair amount, but I don't think you have time to durdle around the same way a "real" control deck does.

So just during the rather short event I cited alone, I Cunning Wished for Dig Through Time, Misdirection and Lightning Bolt as utility targets as well as Stroke for the win a couple of times. When I say this is a control deck, I mean it. Nearly half my games went to the very lategame, with me grinding my opponents totally out of relevant resources before ever attempting to use my graveyard for anything but delving away cards to feed DTT or the occasional Snapcaster Mage. In the games against blue decks, I had two games in which I manually (non-combo) activated Loothouse a bunch of turns in a row just to filter non-interactive cards (lands, reanimation effects, Entombs and Dragons) into more disruption and carddrawing and would have had a third (game 2 against Miracles) if my opponent hadn't given me an opening to just win by spending mana on my endstep when I knew their hand.

My early-midgame game discard hits Force of Will to protect my DTTs and cards aimed at progressing their gameplan (Sensei's Divining Top, Tarmogoyf, Deathrite Shaman, Delver of Secrets, Brainstorm) a lot more often than their ways to interact with my combo because those don't matter with how the deck is built. Once I've taken control, I'll be able to take care of those eventually so unless I see a safe opening or they have an overwhelmingly aggressive draw (which should leave them low on interaction), I sculpt the whole game around taking control, not setting up the combo. Heck, I willfully ignored Grafdigger's Cage being cast with double active Force of Will in hand in the last game of the day because trying to combo out early is a waste of resources when people have countermagic, removal (especially AD) and a ton of graveyard hate in their deck. Much better to kill their stuff and draw cards. That's why I love this list so much. You threaten a combo kill at the turn of a hat and warp their whole gameplan by doing so. The whole mana usage thing from the article aside, can they really afford Forcing DTT when there's a Dragon in the yard? Is allowing DTT to resolve not just a sure recipe for losing in the future? Is that Entomb I'm casting a set up for the kill/Grisel they need to fight over or am I just baiting out the counter that could hit my Dig? Can they even ever win the game if I have both Entomb for Griselbrand plus animation spell and DTT in hand to follow up if they fight that attempt?. In short, you threaten to kill them on turn two but you're perfectly set up to win on turn twenty should they (unsurprisingly) have the tools to make you decide trying to go in early on is too much of a risk.

@H: I think that's more a reference to how awesome Burning Wish for Legacy Yawgmoth's Will is (and my love for storming) than a serious suggestion ;)


edit: (stop posting while I'm writing, darn it ;) )

So in this Grixis deck are you expecting your win to be Animate Dragon, Loothouse, Oona? (Just so I'm perfectly clear.)

Because adding "5, t: Don't do anything" seems just as bad as any of the other suggestions. At least the UB ones are A) On colour, and B) Kill any non-Eldrazi wielding opponent on the spot. I get that Faithless Looting and Izzet Charm are both also cards, but being 3-colours and attempting to cast Izzet Charms and Black Spells is pretty ambitious in a format where Wasteland and Stifle are actually not terrible options again.

What's the thing that costs five plus tap to activate? Loothouse is 1UR plus itself (four mana). The win is generally either looting into Oona (or CWish with cards in hand, or Wish plus Snappy to the yard, switch to Snappy target Wish with no cards in hand) or involves having drawn into a non-land third card to take advantage of the infinite mana the loop generates. Also my list has neither Izzet Charm nor Faithless Looting anyway. There's a reason we don't put those into our control decks.

[leegoo]

I will take your word that cunning wish doesn't sit there looking terrible a vast majority of games. Same with multiple times looting. What did you play against exactly? Not many decks just sit there letting you spend time doing what you will without interacting. 3 Bolts and some discard is enough to keep you from getting out tempo'd vs delver? I just don't see it. I'm very curious what your board state exactly was vs. Miracles... control shell or not, you have a horrible matchup against an even moderately sentient miracles opponent in the late game, correct?

[LennonMarx]

I will take your word that cunning wish doesn't sit there looking terrible a vast majority of games. Same with multiple times looting. What did you play against exactly? Not many decks just sit there letting you spend time doing what you will without interacting. 3 Bolts and some discard is enough to keep you from getting out tempo'd vs delver? I just don't see it. I'm very curious what your board state exactly was vs. Miracles... control shell or not, you have a horrible matchup against an even moderately sentient miracles opponent in the late game, correct?

At this point, I would suggest playing games with the deck instead of theory crafting. I have been testing something similar, though with probe + therapy over Forces (and a few other numbers differences) and the ability to go long with the deck is extremely potent. If you read the article he talks about what he played against, but it's not that decks are sitting there not interacting, it's that you are really good at interacting back. In my experience against delver they need a fairly specific band of cards to "just tempo you out," and those are the hands that beat everything (Delver, daze your spell, blind flip, pierce the next spell, etc). Short of that, if they have a hand that can apply a lot of pressure to your life total, you can go into turbo mode and just kill them (and IRL you have some draw options if need be), and if they have a super controlling hand you can just wait for them to tap some mana for something and use that as a window, or build up multiple disruption spells and then push, or whatever. And against Miracles the only thing that actually matters is CB + Top, the rest is stuff that any deck is going to have that you are equipped to fight through.

[leegoo]

Ahh I remember why I stayed off the Source for so long now.

Good luck everyone brewing.

[LennonMarx]

Ahh I remember why I stayed off the Source for so long now.

Good luck everyone brewing.

My response wasn't meant as a "shut up n00b," so I apologize if it read that way. However, the questions you are asking are very easily answered by playing a few games. It's not like this deck is the best thing ever, it obviously does get interacted with by pretty much everything, but just to say "Oh, you get tempoed out by delver" or "Oh, Miracles obviously beats you" is way oversimplification. The deck has a ton of tools to fight through hate and buy time on top of the ability to take extreme advantage of an opposing mistake. When Carsten is saying this is a "combo control" deck, he is speaking in the vintage sense of the term. You play to stay alive, interact where you have to interact, and then they are dead.

[leegoo]

fair enough. I probably took it too personally besides.

On the same note after re-reading my above post it sounds like I'm trying to be combative as well, which I wasn't. I was merely pointing out some things that my playtesting (yes I've played this deck, and moreso when it was extended legal, and even some in vintage) shows that a long game is just more difficult in my experience with a similar list. Player skill was more what I was pointing out in the miracles matchup, as Carsten is a pretty good player playing a so far under the radar deck. I was simply saying that if your opponent knows what you are doing, you aren't beating miracles long game, too many of their cards are good against dragon... they run dig through time too ;)

But nonetheless, no hard feelings and none intended on my end. Just discussion.

[LennonMarx]

Fair enough and no worries, it's hard to convey tone in text.

My testing against miracles has been pretty good so far, but a small sample size (4 matches on MODO, gone 3-1 against it). Going long against them has been fairly okay provided you can keep counterbalance off the table, but you do probably want to push sooner than later. Admittedly, I don't know if they were running Dig or not (they never cast one against me, obviously doesn't mean it wasn't there) and certainly that card is very good at finding answers.

For what it's worth, I agree with a lot of your points specifically regarding dragon on MODO. Drownyard is a much faster win condition if they actually make you click all the buttons, and often gives them incentive to scoop sooner so I don't see more cards of their deck. The loothouse into Oona/snapcatser -> wish with 1000 mana plan is very time consuming.

[VeniVidiVici]

Repeating what I said in the SCG comments: thoughts on a Firestorm in the Wishboard? It's good against boards with multiple hatebears, buys you a ton of time against Elves/D&T (and sometimes against Delver), can be a discard outlet in a pinch, and likes how the deck is constructed - you often have redundant Entombs/Animates, and discarding a bunch of cards cheaply fuels Dig.

Also, as Glenn Jones pointed out, why is Oona necessary when you have the Animate Snapcaster -> Wish -> Stroke line? If you want an Animate target for when you haven't cycled through your deck (and therefore don't have something to Snapcaster for), how about Tasigur (which seems perfectly fine in the deck anyway, especially against stuff like Cage or in drawn-out control games)?

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Here's what I answered to Firestorm on SCG again for completeness sake: I've considered it but I think the nature of DTT card advantage makes it rather unlikely to be worth it. Feel free to test it, though, I'm sure it'll be a blow out some of the time.

Concerning Oona (once again just citing from SCG): You want Oona for when you have Entomb but no other pay off mechanisms for infinite mana (so no Loothouse or CWish). Snapcaster can conditionally do the job by hitting a DTT or something similar and Griselbrand can likely do it if you still have enough life but both of those things are exactly that - based on certain conditions. Having something like Oona means Entomb actually leads to a definite safe kill, which seems like a reasonable way to spend a slot (especially given that hardcasting it as a control finisher is a surprisingly realistic option).

Now, that leaves Taz instead of Oona, I thought about that possibility yesterday evening, too, in fact, which in and off itself might be a sign that that's the wincon we want simply because he's so much easier to hardcast. The only thing I don't like about him as the wincon is that he isn't blue and therefore won't be useful as FoW-fodder (the deck is somewhat low on blue cards given the rate at which you spend your cantrips and Digs) but I could easily see that not being enough to make up for the ability to go 1-3 mana 4/5 instead of having to set up a six mana hardcast when necessary.

[Zombie]

You made me want to play heavily blue combo o_o

You made me want to play a Griseltard deck o_o

...

You made me want to play a Griseltard deck o_o




Damn you, Carsten. Damn you.

Real talk, though, unlike most of the abominations that have seen print in recent years, this deck speaks to just about everything I love about the game of Magic. Can't wait to shuffle it up.

[MaximumC]

Now, that leaves Taz instead of Oona, I thought about that possibility yesterday evening, too, in fact, which in and off itself might be a sign that that's the wincon we want simply because he's so much easier to hardcast. The only thing I don't like about him as the wincon is that he isn't blue and therefore won't be useful as FoW-fodder (the deck is somewhat low on blue cards given the rate at which you spend your cantrips and Digs) but I could easily see that not being enough to make up for the ability to go 1-3 mana 4/5 instead of having to set up a six mana hardcast when necessary.

What is the win with Taz? In Vintage, infinite mana with Taz kills with Ancestral Recall or Time Walk pretty easily. What do you kill with in Legacy?

[Zombie]

What is the win with Taz? In Vintage, infinite mana with Taz kills with Ancestral Recall or Time Walk pretty easily. What do you kill with in Legacy?

Taz mill into Wish => Stroke => You died.
You can also recur Lightning Bolts until he's dead.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

You made me want to play heavily blue combo o_o

You made me want to play a Griseltard deck o_o

...

You made me want to play a Griseltard deck o_o




Damn you, Carsten. Damn you.

Real talk, though, unlike most of the abominations that have seen print in recent years, this deck speaks to just about everything I love about the game of Magic. Can't wait to shuffle it up.

Buahahhaha! ;)


Taz mill into Wish => Stroke => You died.
You can also recur Lightning Bolts until he's dead.

Actually, thinking about it, the fact that Taz can win with the maindeck Bolts might mean that it's totally reasonable to run just Taz as our wincon if we conclude that the Cunning Wishes actually are a little too clunky to be worth it. I'd want two Taz at that point (that way you can easily just throw one out early as a 4/5 and not care if it gets Swordsed) but that still would leave room for the fourth Entomb in the main, at which point I'd mainly be looking to free up one more slot for the fourth Dig. Definitely something to consider, though I've been quite happy with the Wishes' flexibility so far.
/edit: actually, that would mean we can't win without a red land any more. That's pretty damning for that plan - maybe a Taz and an Oona to mill into if necessary?

[Holden1669]

I said some of this in the comments after Carsten's article but this seems like a better place for long-term discussion so to reiterate:

- I think that playing this as a control deck with a combo finish is a great idea on Carsten's part and it makes the deck a meaningful alternative to traditional reanimator.

- I have played two (count them!) matches with this deck on MTGO and I like being able to take my time and establish some control before winning. It is also awesome that we can win at instant speed with Narcomancy.

- Snapcaster Mage is a great magic card.

- I have had some opening hands where I've regretted having Lighthouse but I think it is overall a good inclusion. It makes sense in a control deck, helps to loot away fatties, and is generally a good choice for part 3 of the three card combo.

- I obviously want to play more with the deck before I make too many changes but I'm not sold on Cunning Wish. I think that two seems like a good number if it is in the deck because more would often be very clunky, but I don't like how it restricts sideboard slots because of the wishboard yet doesn't show up reliably enough for me to depend on it. I know it seems weird that I say that after having said that I don't want to draw it most of the time, but that's how I feel. I wonder if moving the Dig maindeck and eliminating the wishboard would be a good move.

- I like Lighthouse but other than that I'm not loving the red in the deck. Lightning bolt is a 1 for 1 and since I'm playing a control deck I would prefer to get a better return on my removal spells. Especially since I am seldom going to want to send Bolt at my opponent. Since I don't care about their life total I might try replacing red with white for Swords to Plowshares (still a 1 for 1 but hits more things) and maybe Supreme Verdict. I might try one or two Enlightened Tutors in a build like this as well. The other third color seems less likely, but green would be good for Abrupt Decay or even Pernicious Deed. Either way, I would obviously miss Lighthouse, however. Drownyard is not nearly as good if we're playing the control game as it does very little until you're ready to win.

I'm going to keep playing the Grixis version for a while. I think it's good and this feels like a couple of steps in the right direction. The more I think about Esper the more tempted I am, however.

[MaximumC]

This was kind of the whole thrust of my question. I still like Drownyard as a win condition, but Taz seems tailor-made for this deck as an additional win con provided we have some way of winning with him. It has to be a card that's good anyway. That's why Time Walk and Ancestral Recall are so key in Vintage for this purpose.

Some cards that win with Taz are poop on a stick before winning: Stroke, Wish, etc.

Some cards that win with Taz require you to be in a third color and do not help your Plan A in the meantime: Bolt.

So, what CAN win with Taz while helping Plan A?

1. Thought Scour works just fine, but you have to be simultaneously casting something like Regrowth to keep a card in your library at all times. This is probably an OK plan if you are using a Regrowth effect anyway.

2. Compulsive Research / Consult the Necrosages /Pilfered Plans / Wistful Thinking would work too, but it's slow and crappy as a draw engine.

3. Deep Analysis works and its not too shabby in this kind of deck to begin with.

4. Predict is an awesome card that Ive never seen actually do work, but could be good here.

5. Sapphire Charm kills next upkeep, but interacts with nothing else in the meantime.

6. Sign in Blood works pretty well, and possibly puts you in a more black shell.

[Namida]

I would go with Sapphire Charm only because I want to live the dream of phasing out a Germ token. It's also a (bad) cantrip at the very least, and I like that it doesn't draw your opponent into disruption as you're going off (even though you should actually have your entire deck in your hand at this point, you never know?)

The only other ideas my friend and I could come up with were Geth's Verdict and Ebony Charm, but I don't know that those are any better.

[VeniVidiVici]

Deep Analysis is good and has applications outside the combo (turning a spare Entomb into DA is really nice), but it doesn't work if you're going off at instant speed with Necromancy.

Honestly, even if you don't want to play Cunning Wish it might make sense to have one copy as your kill card with a Stroke or w/e in the SB, alongside whatever instants happen to be there anyway (not a deliberate Wishboard).

I know the arguments against Drownyard, but not requiring red is really big if you're going for a fast combo (it works in T1 Entomb into T2 [Drownyard], Animate where Lighthouse does not)

[LennonMarx]

Deep Analysis is good and has applications outside the combo (turning a spare Entomb into DA is really nice), but it doesn't work if you're going off at instant speed with Necromancy.

Honestly, even if you don't want to play Cunning Wish it might make sense to have one copy as your kill card with a Stroke or w/e in the SB, alongside whatever instants happen to be there anyway (not a deliberate Wishboard).

I know the arguments against Drownyard, but not requiring red is really big if you're going for a fast combo (it works in T1 Entomb into T2 [Drownyard], Animate where Lighthouse does not)

At that point isn't it just better to have the stroke in the main? It's not like the card is amazing, but I could see casting it at some point in this deck, and then it doesn't eat up a SB slot. The only other card I can think of that is in our main colors that could let us win at instant speed with Taz is Misery Charm.

[VeniVidiVici]

I'm assuming you might have cards like Pyroblast or Echoing Truth in your board anyway, and randomly having access to them could be helpful.

Soul Spike is better than Misery Charm. Sapphire Charm is the best suggestion I think, removing DRS/Ooze/Containment Priest for a turn is great and it's the only kill card that cycles afaik. The delay on the kill could be awkward, but with Tasigur you have infinite FoWs for their spells and Charms for their creatures.

[Darkenslight]

I'm assuming you might have cards like Pyroblast or Echoing Truth in your board anyway, and randomly having access to them could be helpful.

Soul Spike is better than Misery Charm. Sapphire Charm is the best suggestion I think, removing DRS/Ooze/Containment Priest for a turn is great and it's the only kill card that cycles afaik. The delay on the kill could be awkward, but with Tasigur you have infinite FoWs for their spells and Charms for their creatures.

That's a point - for an on-color burn spell, try Psionic Blast. If you're using the Tasigur kill, I'd also look into the Delve spells (Murderous Cut/Dig Through Time.)

[LennonMarx]

I'm assuming you might have cards like Pyroblast or Echoing Truth in your board anyway, and randomly having access to them could be helpful.

Soul Spike is better than Misery Charm. Sapphire Charm is the best suggestion I think, removing DRS/Ooze/Containment Priest for a turn is great and it's the only kill card that cycles afaik. The delay on the kill could be awkward, but with Tasigur you have infinite FoWs for their spells and Charms for their creatures.

You're probably right. My main complaint with Tasigur is that you can't really kill with him on MODO so actually testing him is going to be challenging. Also, and this is super minor, but Misery Charm does kill containment priest, and I would love to blow someone out with a random 15th pick from 13 years ago.

[Searys]

I was bitching about bolt but misery charm... Man that's probably the worst card you can pack, i'm testing Word of command right now and that card is absolutely awesome, maybe the best protection you can cast EOT before your big turn :tongue:

[Vacrix]

Ahh I remember why I stayed off the Source for so long now.

Good luck everyone brewing.
My thoughts exactly. I can't believe nobody has mentioned the obvious Phage tranformational sideboard.


Honestly, this variation on reanimator has little to offer. Its advantage is with all the right pieces, you win the game immediately. The disadvantage is all the rest of the pieces leave you standing with your dick in your hand while your opponent does things. Griz, Iona, and friends have the advantage of inevitability...... and you can actually drop them when your opponent plays Show and Tell (common much?). That also means its harder to justify playing SnT in the sideboard. The question is.. does winning the game immediately (assuming your protection stops removal) outweigh the advantage of playing a deck that plays safer (better) creatures? Frankly, trying to play with dragon is like selling your m16 for a musket... just cause you like the bayonet. It got unbanned because its outdated tech, not because wizards wanted you to break the format. They probably put together a great list and said, ok, this isn't better than reanimator. leegoo already posted a well put together list.. and despite it being well put together.. it doesn't look like its going to be better than your standard reanimator list. Thats not to say its not playable.. it could actually be quite good.. but if you can already afford Underground Sea, Entomb, Polluted Delta, etc. don't you want to play something that has a better shot at making the most of your entry fees?

[VeniVidiVici]

WGD actually has a lot more inevitability than Griselbrand and Iona do. If you are able to get through their disruption WGD is a guaranteed kill, whereas the game will eventually progress to a point where Griselbrand/Iona/Elesh Norn/whatever won't be good enough. A fast, unmolested Griselbrand is good enough in most situations - though so is WGD - but when the game drags on and you're trying to fight through resistance it's nice to know that your kill is definitely a kill and not a painful spin of the wheel.

[death]

Honestly, this variation on reanimator has little to offer. Its advantage is with all the right pieces, you win the game immediately. The disadvantage is all the rest of the pieces leave you standing with your dick in your hand while your opponent does things. Griz, Iona, and friends have the advantage of inevitability...... and you can actually drop them when your opponent plays Show and Tell (common much?). That also means its harder to justify playing SnT in the sideboard. The question is.. does winning the game immediately (assuming your protection stops removal) outweigh the advantage of playing a deck that plays safer (better) creatures? Frankly, trying to play with dragon is like selling your m16 for a musket... just cause you like the bayonet. It got unbanned because its outdated tech, not because wizards wanted you to break the format. They probably put together a great list and said, ok, this isn't better than reanimator. leegoo already posted a well put together list.. and despite it being well put together.. it doesn't look like its going to be better than your standard reanimator list. Thats not to say its not playable.. it could actually be quite good.. but if you can already afford Underground Sea, Entomb, Polluted Delta, etc. don't you want to play something that has a better shot at making the most of your entry fees?

It's easy to see it that way. There have been new printings since the last version of this deck was played (utility lands, creatures, cantrips and tutors) so technically not outdated. You could say the same thing about Survival of the Fittest and Yawgmoth's Bargain which are still strong. Pretty much still banned. What makes Dragon infinite mana engine better than say Basalt Monolith + Power Artifact combo is that the first card printed in Magic (Animate Dead) interacts well with newer, powerful creatures namely Griselbrand. I mean.. given the power that is Animate Dead to bring life to any chosen creature, how people often think Worldgorger and Griselbrand go separately is beyond me. Did R&D screw up not thinking the two might eventually be paired together? I'd take both, because why not? Obviously the demon is OP. Assembling the combo is not an improbable task when the kill cards are 1) lands and 2) enablers or tutors that double up as win cons. Those pieces you can draw/play naturally as long as you keep making land drops, they effortlessly link up as you progress. No one is dissuading you from playing TinFins, Solidarity or Spanish Inquisition (if those are your perceptions of "cutting edge" decks). Before spewing garbage play a few games to find out what Animate Dead/Dance of the Dead can do when an opponent casts Show and Tell once a creature is in our yard or we're sandbagging Intuition/Entomb with backup or.. Griselbrand. We've heard stories how Grixis combo-control fare, it's a matter of time until a dedicated Dragon reanimator breaks open the format.

Edit: I kinda like tweaking Carsten's list, I kinda not. Like I said in the other thread, it could be difficult going up against combo decks optimized to beat control without a fast clock outside of the combo since you are slower than full-blown Reanimator.

[Vacrix]

Yes there are new printings, and new unbanned options, namely Entomb and Dig Through Time. Dragon conveinently also dodges Karakas. And yes, if you manage to get Dragon into your yard when or before your opponent plays SnT then you can get the combo going.

And yet the deck still has the same problem Reanimator has; graveyard hate. Only now you are exposing the creature to swords to plowshares.. and Animate Dead to removal. Things have also been printed since Animate Dead was good.. Qasali Pridemage (GSZ) and Abrupt Decay being good examples that see a lot of play.

Correct me if I'm wrong..

- Animate Dead ETB, and its first ability triggers
- Dragon ETB, and it's first ability triggers
- A competent opponent destroys the Animate Dead in response.
- Abrupt Decay, Pridemages ability, etc. resolves and Animate Dead's sacrifice ability triggers
- Animate Dead's sacrifice ability resolves and Dragon's ability to return everything triggers on top of the first ability to exile everything.
- Dragon's ability to return everything resolves, but nothing has yet been exiled so nothing happens
- Dragon's ability to exile everything resolves. There goes everything.

If I got this right.. then you're exposing an otherwise unexposed strategy. Reanimator tends to play Shroud dudes, Iona, and Griz. These creatures preclude disruption or provide inevitability.. and ultimately force opponents to attack the deck from the graveyard.


As far as TinFins, Solidarity, and SI go.. I don't think I need to defend the niches these decks occupy in the metagame. Go to the deck's respective thread and I'm sure each has a 'why play this?' sort of section.

The point I'm making is that Dragon Reanimator is seeking some kind of adaptive advantage within the Reanimator archetype, much like the aforementioned TinFins. So then.. does the auto-win aspect of the Dragon variation outweigh its vulnerability? I would like to mention that did I say this deck could be quite good.. I'm just not sold on it.

[LOLWut]

Vacrix, how much testing of Carsten's list have you done?

[Daize]

Hehe. I wonder really how many people did test his list, and thought loothouse was really sub-par...

[EunB]

Hehe. I wonder really how many people did test his list, and thought loothouse was really sub-par...

On the flip side until the deck puts up a solid tournament result it's not immune to criticism. I don't think most people would consider a 4-round event that Carsten played in was sufficient, especially since 2 of his games he had an Entomb, Reanimate, CWish draw despite only having 2 Cunning Wish in the deck. With that kind of luck any deck would look unstoppable.

[leegoo]

Hehe. I wonder really how many people did test his list, and thought loothouse was really sub-par...

Honestly quite a few lists, including his, and I still think loothouse is mediocre at absolute best.

[Richard Cheese]

On the flip side until the deck puts up a solid tournament result it's not immune to criticism. I don't think most people would consider a 4-round event that Carsten played in was sufficient, especially since 2 of his games he had an Entomb, Reanimate, CWish draw despite only having 2 Cunning Wish in the deck. With that kind of luck any deck would look unstoppable.

If those are the standards we judge cards/decks by, then I already broke Siege Rhino since two weeks ago.

[Hoojo]

I guess I'm missing the why people consider Desolate Lighthouse mediocre. Is this in comparison to Nephalia Drownyard? Considering the deck goes infinite, they both fill the graveyard; is it that you can't mill the opponent out on turn two?

[Richard Cheese]

I guess I'm missing the why people consider Desolate Lighthouse mediocre. Is this in comparison to Nephalia Drownyard? Considering the deck goes infinite, they both fill the graveyard; is it that you can't mill the opponent out on turn two?

No, it's that it's a key part of the argument for running red over green, which would get you Decay over Bolt, and possibly Crop Rotation so you don't have to run as many colorless mana sources. The argument against is that it's not good enough on it's own to justify running over Drownyard, but proponents say the looting is actually very relevant.

[Darkenslight]

If those are the standards we judge cards/decks by, then I already broke Siege Rhino since two weeks ago.

That's funny, because I broke it with Whip of erebos. :tongue:


I guess I'm missing the why people consider Desolate Lighthouse mediocre. Is this in comparison to Nephalia Drownyard? Considering the deck goes infinite, they both fill the graveyard; is it that you can't mill the opponent out on turn two?

Lighthouse's Looting effect allows you to find a second creature (eventually), regardless of whether you have it in hand or not. For example, the Oona kill can also be hardcast, and that's a part of the reason I like the Duskmantle Guildmage as an alt-kill or even Shivan Gorge, dependent on the build. Note that the Gorge doesnt' target, so it gets around Leyline of Sanctity once on the field.

[Svknoe]

I'm not entirely convinced that decay is even better than bolt. In addition to the extra cost, bolt goin to the face is not irrelevant. There have been a few games where my opponent has been stacked with GY hate and I have killed them with snapcaster and bolts.

[Finn]

Messed around with Tasigur this weekend. It seems pretty clear to me that this card has a place in this deck. Unfortunately, while you do get all the nonland cards of the deck in your hand, and all the lands in the graveyard, you still need a wincon. For me atleast, that still means a single copy of Cunning Wish. If there is a better card here I am all ears.

[death]

If there is a better card here I am all ears.

Oona is a cleaner kill, though Tasigur is janky I finally get to use


http://i.imgur.com/CAEiROr.jpg

[Cire]

Messed around with Tasigur this weekend. It seems pretty clear to me that this card has a place in this deck. Unfortunately, while you do get all the nonland cards of the deck in your hand, and all the lands in the graveyard, you still need a wincon. For me atleast, that still means a single copy of Cunning Wish. If there is a better card here I am all ears.

Or just run Bolt maindeck?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Or just run Bolt maindeck?

+1

and yeah if you run green instead use crop rotation

[Searys]

Tasigur is awesome if you run bolt yep, crop is clearly a bad idea what Will y ou do if All your kill lands are into the grave?

[Finn]

Or just run Bolt maindeck?

Talk to me like I am a noob here. Bolt? Huh?

[Philipp2293]

Assuming that your statement was not sarcastic: Once you have infinite mana and Tasigur in play, you can replay Bolt as often as you want, so it's a kill condition on it's own.

[death]

+1

and yeah if you run green instead use crop rotation

I'll give you a C+ for creativity. Consider Hornet Sting which kills DRS, our most problematic creature pre-board. And yeah you can kill the opponent with a thousand Touch of Death or Hornet Stings.

[Finn]

Assuming that your statement was not sarcastic: Once you have infinite mana and Tasigur in play, you can replay Bolt as often as you want, so it's a kill condition on it's own.
Thanks. I really should have seen that on Sat. That was the missing piece, and it got me thinking.

I don't see how Hornet Sting kills Deathrite Shaman. But since we are discussing it, how about Psychic Purge because it is in color?

Also,
Ebony Charm
Dimir Charm
Sapphire Charm


...all have merit now as wincons. Dimir Charm is almost excellent here, as you can respond to the Emrakul graveyard trigger with activating Tasigur again and casting the spell again and again. But you would need an instant card that forces the opponent to draw a card. These cards exist, but I could not find any that I would stick in the main of this deck.

[Searys]

The really good thing with tasigur is, you can use nearly anything to kill your opponent (even vision charm do the job!) plus it's a pretty good creature by itself, the beating plan is better than ever imho, i even think of cutting some of the special lands, to play more tasigur (after all it's a 4/5 for virtually 1 or 2 mana at best!)

[Di]

I've found that with a Tasigur kill (plus a non-blue/black win condition like Lightning Bolt) the deck requires at least one Lotus Petal. Otherwise you are forced to wait until you have the colored source. It's not a huge deal, as Lotus Petal is useful in the deck anyway, but it's still a slot.

[Searys]

We have fetchlands, so finding a red land is not that hard (according you play a red splash) if not, you can use a lot of card for the kill, even vision charm can do that :)

Oh, i just thinked about that but it's possible to use vision to turn a land type into red, rego into combo, and have infinite red mana, and vision charm is way more useful than lotus petal :)

[MaximumC]

I don't know that we're quite there yet with Taz. I love the creativity, but if he's going to get into the deck he has to justify the fact that killing with him takes more slots than Oona. So far, I don't know that we're there yet. If we're breaking into red for Loothouse, then Lightning Bolt is probably the best way to go. Otherwise...

..mostly what we're discussing are sideboard cards. And that's interesting. Can you build a serviceable sideboard using only cards that will win with Taz? That could be interesting.

Dimir Charm - Hands down the best option, I think. It kills Deathrite, elves, goblins, merfolk, etc, etc. Any early game creature can be iced by it. At the same time, if stops the win conditions of most other combo decks. If you were going with Taz, I think you maindeck this thing.

Psychic Purge - Ten points to whoever remembered this card. It's kind of awkward, though. Sure, it does stop 1 drop creatures pretty cold. But does not kill Deathrite (little bastard is a 1/2, remember). Could be better than Dimir Charm against Delver, Elves, Goblins. Might be important that it's cheap if you want to kill Thalia. The discard rattlesnake effect is kind of meh, because you're not trying to kill through damage anyway. It requires a very rare combination of circumstances for the life loss to matter much. They'll keep pointing Duresses at you anyway.

Sapphire Charm - Cantrips and thus costs you a turn instead of deck space, which is cool. Phasing out creatures is not a bad thing, but it really just buys you time to draw that next card anyway. I can't really see a situation in which you'd rather use a card than regular removal, like Dimir Charm. Giving your Taz flying is only very rarely going to matter. I don't think this one cuts the mustard.

Vision Charm - This one seems much better than Sapphire. Phasing out artifacts can be QUITE relevant, as some hate cards you might see (Defense Grid, Cursed Totem) and many combo pieces (Grindstone, Helm of Obedience, Basalt Monolith) are artifacts. It won't save you from being run over by a flipped Delver, but it will act as more hindrance for an opposing combo deck. The last mode is really what makes this card sing like a bird, though: you can preemptively shut down countermagic when you're going off. This makes this card at least as good as Dimir Charm, in my opinion, and usually better. The middle mode isn't dead before you combo off, either, as filling your yard with 4 cards is not a bad thing. Particularly if you set it up with a Brainstorm or Ponder.

Ebony Charm - This is much more narrow. I can only see this as a sideboard card to bring in against Dredge and opposing reanimator decks.

Of all the options, I think it's reasonable to do something like this:
3 Taz
2 Vision Charm

With a board including:
2 Dimir Charm
2 Funeral Charm

The idea here would be that Taz inches you closer to being able to play an aggro game on top of your control and combo elements. Vision Charm is maindecked because blasting past countermagic is that good. It can swap out for Funeral Charm against reanimator and for Dimir Charm against creature heavy decks. Dimir Charm can also come in for countermagic against decks like Elves and Goblins that won't try to counter your stuff.

Is this worth it? It depends on whether Taz offers more role flexibility without making the deck weaker as a result.

[Searys]

In fact he takes not more slots than oona.

The cards you will use to kill will not be "dead" slots, but control slots (as vision charm/dimir charm), that means he takes the same number of slots than oona, especially in a version with red (where he is even better than oona, by killing immediatly)

The ultra +++ side of Taz is, it's a 4/5 for basically 1 or 2 mana, wich means it's a kill, playing it with snapcaster and vendilion, you could clearly win with just that. Another + is it takes the anti-creatures instead of WGD, wich is cool.

I honestly think that Taz is far better than oona, i didn't get the fact that he could allow you to play the same spell again and again, and after getting this point there is no real reason not to play him instead of oona (i will not hesitate to play 2 of it, even maybe 3)

Edit: Basically you can kill with a planeswalker too if you have any bounce main deck

[Finn]

MaximumC, I am not sure you are seeing how the charms will be used.

Dimir Charm
Ebony Charm
Sapphire Charm
Vision Charm

You cast the charm over and over. Ebony does an infinite impression of Drain Life. Sapphire Charm cycles, sure. But when it comes to killing, the opponent draws infinite cards on their upkeep. Vision Charm is kinda meh because it is the same wincon as the lands we are using, so I did not include it.

A good solution for the Emrakul graveyard trigger is actually found on Ebony Charm, as you can remove Emrakul with his trigger on the stack. Ebony Charm is actually kinda useful as a maindeck answer to graveyards in general while also being a wincon. But is that worth a slot in the deck? By including it, we validate the reason to run Oona over Tasigur. I have to believe that there is a better solution than that. Oona sux, but she is a single card where this is at least two.

[Di]

We have fetchlands, so finding a red land is not that hard (according you play a red splash) if not, you can use a lot of card for the kill, even vision charm can do that :)

Oh, i just thinked about that but it's possible to use vision to turn a land type into red, rego into combo, and have infinite red mana, and vision charm is way more useful than lotus petal :)

Finding the land isn't hard, no. However I was referencing the fact that it does come up that you have the ability to go off turn two but don't happen to have a fetchland or red source, or a turn or so later but already made your land drop. It's rather annoying, and this would navigate around it. I suppose Vision Charm solves that problem, but again if Vision Charm is in the deck you won't need red sources in the first place.

[Searys]

Yeah, if we assume that emrakul is not in the opponent deck, and we must assume that the kill with bolt/fire ice is better!

[MaximumC]

In fact he takes not more slots than oona.

The cards you will use to kill will not be "dead" slots, but control slots (as vision charm/dimir charm), that means he takes the same number of slots than oona, especially in a version with red (where he is even better than oona, by killing immediatly)


This is ONLY TRUE if the cards he kills with are as useful on their own merits as the cards you would otherwise be running with Oona. That's the whole point of my discussion above. I think only two - Vision and Dimir Charm - fit the bill as possibly as good as other cards you could be running in those slots. Funeral Charm has merit as a sideboard option. The rest do not.



The ultra +++ side of Taz is, it's a 4/5 for basically 1 or 2 mana, wich means it's a kill, playing it with snapcaster and vendilion, you could clearly win with just that. Another + is it takes the anti-creatures instead of WGD, wich is cool.

I honestly think that Taz is far better than oona, i didn't get the fact that he could allow you to play the same spell again and again, and after getting this point there is no real reason not to play him instead of oona (i will not hesitate to play 2 of it, even maybe 3)


That's the concept. If you can find a card that makes Taz work as a finisher without diluting your deck otherwise, then you might end up with a deck that could play the control, aggro, or combo roles depending on the situation. That's potentially really cool, but it remains to be seen whether you can pull it off without making the deck too clunky.



Edit: Basically you can kill with a planeswalker too if you have any bounce main deck

That's a good point. Which Blue or Black Planeswalkers can win you the game if you keep recycling their non-ult abilities?


MaximumC, I am not sure you are seeing how the charms will be used.
.

Sure I do. I know they all function as wincons. My point is that the only ones worth playing must have utility BEFORE you are going for a win. If they do not, then Taz is eating up slots in the deck that Oona does not, and the argument for him is worse.

[Finn]

Vision Charm is the worst of all the charms, from what I can tell. Am I wrong about this?

In fact, I might have it now. I think that Surgical Extraction is actually the card we want.

It has clear uses when drawn before the combo, especially in a deck with discard and Probes. It can eat Emrakul with his shuffle on the stack, and it actually might be a wincon in and of itself when paired with Tasigur. This last one seems painful if the opponent does not concede, and I do not know that it is necessary.

[MaximumC]

Vision Charm is the worst of all the charms, from what I can tell. Am I wrong about this?

In fact, I might have it now. I think that Surgical Extraction is actually the card we want.

It has clear uses when drawn before the combo, especially in a deck with discard and Probes. It can eat Emrakul with his shuffle on the stack, and it actually might be a wincon in and of itself when paired with Tasigur. This last one seems painful if the opponent does not concede, and I do not know that it is necessary.

I don't see how surgical extraction wins with Taz. You only get to remove copies of cards in their yard from the game.

Re: Vision Charm

I think it's potentially very good because:
1. Mode 1 has some (very marginal) utility to slow down or stop combo decks or decks relying on artifact disruption, like MUD.
2. Mode 2 is a win condition with Taz.
3. Mode 3 is a pre-emptive counterspell along the lines of Duress. During your upkeep, cast charm to deny them the mana they need to stop you (blue for counterspells, white for StP, etc) and then you are free to go nuts. Indeed, if you do cast this on your upkeep and the player is wise, they have no choice but to counter it out of fear that you will go off otherwise.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Why not just Predict? We play enough cantrips to make it a 2 mana draw 2!

It randomly can bring you back from nothing -> Milling the dragon and drawing reanimation + Taz xD

And yeah it can mill quite well with infinite Taz.

EDIT: DAMMIT you have to draw! forget it...

[MaximumC]

Why not just Predict? We play enough cantrips to make it a 2 mana draw 2!

It randomly can bring you back from nothing -> Milling the dragon and drawing reanimation + Taz xD

And yeah it can mill quite well with infinite Taz.

EDIT: DAMMIT you have to draw! forget it...

Yeah, Predict works but only if you have a way to keep dumping something on top of your library. So you could go this route if you add a Noxious Revival to the mix. I'm not sure that using slots for Revival AND Predict is the best idea, though. I'd have an easier time swallowing dropping some number of Duress effects for Vision Charm or removal for Dimir Charm before I drop Brainstorm/Ponder for Predict.

Again, it remains to be seen whether Taz adds enough to the deck to make him worth doing all this with. Here's the kind of shell I'm thinking of:

Worldgorger Tasigur

Creatures (8)
------------
2 Worldgorger Dragon
3 Tasigur, Banana Man
3 Snapcaster Mage

Walkers (2)
-------------
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Cantrips (8)
-------------
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

Tutors (4)
-------------
4 Entomb

Animate Effects (5)
------------
3 Animate Dead
2 Narcomancy

Countermagic (9)
------------
4 Force of Will
3 Pact of Negation
2 Spell Pierce

Removal (4)
-----------
3 Dimir Charm
1 Chain of Vapor

Mana (20)
------------
4 N. Drownyard
4 P. Delta
1 S. Tarn
1 F. Strand
4 U. Sea
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Lotus Petal

So there's a lot going on here. The idea is that this deck can decide what it wants to be based on what the matchup is. With Snapcaster, Jace, and Taz in the maindeck, it can play an aggressive role easily. Fetches into cantrips gives you access to quick Tasigur for the beatdown plan. With 7 free counterspells and five more conditional spells, plus four decent removal spells, you are doing OK in the control department as well.

You win in variety of ways:

1. Taz in play, cantrip in yard or hand:
Entomb in hand, or Entomb in yard + snapcaster in hand = Dragon in yard
Animate Dead / Narcomancy = Infinite mana
Taz can now recast any cantrip from your yard to draw your deck.
Cast Dimir Charm infinity times for the win.

2. Taz in the yard:
End your dragon loop with Taz and do as above.

3. No Taz anywhere, but Drownyard in play:
Win with drownyard's ability.

4. No Taz, no Drownyard:
Try to go off. Chances are you have a few cantrips or a snapcaster to give you access to cantrips so you can cast things during the loop This should let you dig decently far. All you need to do is hit an Entomb (4 copies), another cantrip effect (14, counting Snappy), Taz (3) copies or a Drownyard, if you havn't had a land drop (4) copies, for a total of 25 cards that either win or allow you to keep going. If you find Chain of Vapor but none of the win conditions, you can bounce the Animate Dead to preserve your ability to try again next turn.

5. No Entomb / Animate Spell.
Welcome to aggro control. You have lots of disruption and a 4/5 beatstick to work with. You also have Jace.

[Searys]

Ashiok can kill but it's not reaaaally good :/

charm is cool, it's a main deck for me, at least one.

[MaximumC]

Ashiok can kill but it's not reaaaally good :/

charm is cool, it's a main deck for me, at least one.

Yeah, I was looking at Black / Blue Walkers and the only ones who could kill if you recurred them are Ashiok, original Sorin, and Ob Nixilis. None of those are really worth playing in a vacuum.

Also, since you need to be comboing with Taz to win with a walker anyway... and once you combo with Taz it's likely you can recur cantrips to draw your deck anyway... I don't see the need for a more potent win condition. Dimir Charm makes sense because it functions as removal, countermagic, a cantrip, AND a win-con. Vision Charm maaaybe out of the board against Miracles or Delver.

[Teveshszat]

Dimir Charm can´t win you the game imidiatly because it leaves 1 card at his libary all the time. The reason is the wording which says put one back and the rest into his graveyard. If he only has 1 card left the you will put this card back and 0 cards in the graveyard. So the Opponent will get 1 more turn which is not really good.

[Finn]

I don't see how surgical extraction wins with Taz. You only get to remove copies of cards in their yard from the game.

Re: Vision Charm

I think it's potentially very good because:
1. Mode 1 has some (very marginal) utility to slow down or stop combo decks or decks relying on artifact disruption, like MUD.
2. Mode 2 is a win condition with Taz.
3. Mode 3 is a pre-emptive counterspell along the lines of Duress. During your upkeep, cast charm to deny them the mana they need to stop you (blue for counterspells, white for StP, etc) and then you are free to go nuts. Indeed, if you do cast this on your upkeep and the player is wise, they have no choice but to counter it out of fear that you will go off otherwise.
Re Vision Charm: Ok, got it. So it is the worst one. In particular, the wincon is something the lands of the deck already do. That is - it does not do the one thing that the card in this slot is necessary for. And the incidental effects of the other two modes are not nearly good enough to warrant inclusion.

Ebony and Sapphire can both win through Emrakul. This is the only purpose of this card slot. But it matters not, because I am pretty sure that Surgical is the card we want here. It fills a disruption/defense slot while incidentally outmaneuvering Emrakul.


1 Surgical Extraction
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Dimir Charm
2 Dig Through Time
4 Entomb
3 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Animate Dead
4 Necromancy
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Baleful Strix
3 Worldgorger Dragon

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Nephalia Drownyard
2 Duskmantle, House of Shadow


EDIT: Eh, this is flawed. I was building as if Cunning Wish was still present.
EDIT: fix'd

[MaximumC]

Re Vision Charm: Ok, got it. So it is the worst one. In particular, the wincon is something the lands of the deck already do. That is - it does not do the one thing that the card in this slot is necessary for. And the incidental effects of the other two modes are not nearly good enough to warrant inclusion.

Ebony and Sapphire can both win through Emrakul. This is the only purpose of this card slot. But it matters not, because I am pretty sure that Surgical is the card we want here. It fills a disruption/defense slot while incidentally outmaneuvering Emrakul.


Surgical is amazing on its own, no doubt. You're missing the point about having a Charm as a win-con, though. If you have Taz out or in the yard when you start to Dragon, or if you can find him off of cantrips as you Dragon away, then you can use Taz to win on the spot if your win con is a non-land. The point is not to diversify win-cons, but that's certainly a good thing. The point is that Taz can't recur Drownyard / Lighthouse, so if you plan to include him he needs an alternative win condition.

Or not; you could just plan on infinity cantripping your way to a Drownyard, but then you need to have a land drop available that turn or pass the turn.

[Finn]

MaximumC, you can't pass the turn. You just decked yourself.

I looked at the decklist you posted and I realize that we are building different decks. You want him as a sort of bonafide second deck mode. I am using him strictly as a replacement for Oona that I can cast and do stuff with. I am using a single Tas as a replacement for Oona. I can't use many because I want Dig Through Time. And they are legendary, after all. I won't be having Tasigur out incidentally with dragon mana available. I will have to get to him via Entomb or one of the grave fillers the deck already has. If that is the case, I will be able to mill the opponent anyway. Put another way, I am using the extra Tas slots to increase my chances of getting one of the other methods to work.

I think that the 3-color version that Carsten favors is over-reaching on mana, but also on its ability to control the game.

[MaximumC]

That's fair. You're looking to stick to the combo but use Taz instead of Oona because you're scared of losing to Emrakul, right? I don't think he's worth it in that role. You can run surgical either way. By swapping him with Oona, all you do is turn Oona into a Regrowth, essentially (you can get extraction in the yard going off either way, but Taz puts it in your hand). In exchange you lose the ability to reanimate a bona fide game-ender in a pinch or pitch to Force.

So, assuming you go Taz at all, I wonder whether he's best suited to taking this deck in an aggro direction.


MaximumC, you can't pass the turn. You just decked yourself.

Probably not, actually. So let's assume you Dragon-off and you have a Taz in play or in the yard and a Brainstorm / Dimir Charm in the yard. Generate 1000000 black and 1000000 blue mana. Now you can either use Taz' ability in response to Dragon's ETB trigger (if hes on the field) or end your combo and Animate him from the yard. You can now cast and recur the cantrip as much as you need to to draw whatever you need. So once you hit a Drownyard, if thats what you need, why, you stop drawing cards. Assuming you have a land drop, you now win. If not, you draw into enough disruption to bend over your opponent for a turn and drop it next turn.

The more I think about it, the more I suspect we actually plain don't need anything special to win with Taz. Taz+Cantrip+Combo is a super Grislebrand.


Dimir Charm can´t win you the game imidiatly because it leaves 1 card at his libary all the time. The reason is the wording which says put one back and the rest into his graveyard. If he only has 1 card left the you will put this card back and 0 cards in the graveyard. So the Opponent will get 1 more turn which is not really good.

True, but if you've "gone off" with Dimir Charm + Tas you don't have to deck yourself (for the reasons explained above), you control the opponent's last topdeck, you've been able to draw infinity cards to remove and control them.... I don't see them winning even though they get that extra turn.

[Finn]

I don't know. I will say that I had two at first, and I drew them often enough that I was having to make hard decisions what to delve away, wait on more mana, etc. when paired with Dig through Time. And Dig is just excellent in this deck, so I find myself shying away from anything that will inhibit my ability to cast it. That said, I paid heed to your words and I edited my above decklist. I realized that I messed up my ability to win with birds as the engine with the build I posted. I swapped a Ponder for a Dimir Charm, while keeping the Extraction. Extraction gets around the problem with Dimir Charm as your wincon too.

Many complicated interactions going on. Needs moar testing.

[MaximumC]

I don't know. I will say that I had two at first, and I drew them often enough that I was having to make hard decisions what to delve away, wait on more mana, etc. when paired with Dig through Time. And Dig is just excellent in this deck, so I find myself shying away from anything that will inhibit my ability to cast it. That said, I paid heed to your words and I edited my above decklist. I realized that I messed up my ability to win with birds as the engine with the build I posted. I swapped a Ponder for a Dimir Charm, while keeping the Extraction. Extraction gets around the problem with Dimir Charm as your wincon too.

Many complicated interactions going on. Needs moar testing.

Well, one big change to support Dig and Taz -- or multiple Taz -- is going big on the cantrips. It might be correct to just plain give in and run the Delver package of 4x Brainstorm, 4x Ponder, 4x Gitaxian Probe and go on from there.

[Finn]

How are you recurring the cantrip as often as you like when you are not decked?

[Searys]

The fact is, if you're not playing red, maybe oona is slightly better.

But if you run some red cards (fire/ice and bolt come to my mind.) taz is clearly better.

[MaximumC]

How are you recurring the cantrip as often as you like when you are not decked?

Ah! You're correct, almost. Since Taz mills you as he recurs cards, you can't just recur stuff as much as you please. Whoops. Looks like the only way to get infinite with Taz is to be happy milling yourself to death.

[Daize]

Hmm I'm confused: does the second part of the ability fizzle if the first part doesn't happen? In other words, if your library is already in your graveyard, can't you just keep activating that ability until all your cards are in your nonland cards from your graveyard are in your hand, cast lightning bolt, use his ability again, cast lightning bolt?

Yes you can.

[Finn]

Yes. That was not the issue.

Also, with so many options and versions being floated about, each with bonuses and flaws, it seems likely that the first one of these to place will be the one the masses of mindless SCG grinders pick up. And not necessarily the one we agree upon here, whatever the logic.

[Jander78]

Here's where I'm at with this deck. I'm not going to claim this is the best version, just the best I have been testing with so far.


4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize

3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae

3 Animate Dead
1 Dance of the Dead
3 Necromancy

4 Entomb
3 Intuition

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm

2 Dimir Charm
2 Cunning Wish

4 Dark Ritual

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Nephalia Drownyard
2 Duskmantle, House of Shadow


Sideboard (Still a work in progress):
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Intuition
1 Dismember
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Pithing Needle
1 Echoing Truth
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Hibernation
1 Misdirection
1 Stifle


Some of the questionable slots:

Dark Ritual - I haven't seen this used too many lists. It's not only in here for speed, but having access to Ritual -> Necromancy after baiting a DRS activation or any other hate is huge.

Baleful Strix - This card was good in testing, but not good enough to justify all of the slots it took up. It didn't do enough on it's own to really help this deck out.

Oona, Queen of the Fae - I'm still choosing to run this over Tasguir. Taz is a great card, but it honestly convolutes the deck and requires more of an investment in deck space.

No third color - I tested a green splash, and a red splash, and came to the conclusion that this deck really wants to be two colors tops. The third color really sets you up to be disrupted very easily. I do think Desolate Lighthouse is a great card for this deck, but the fact that it's in two off colors, doesn't make it worth the splash in my opinion.

Dimir Charm - This is a good card, not great by any means, but it does three mediocre things and the versatility gives you the most bang for the deck space.

Intuition - I feel like this card got lost in the mix. It's an instant speed tutor that puts the cards exactly where you want them or gets you a redundant piece into your hand. I'm not sure I would run DTT over this.

[Searys]

Bicolor as my list, i don't like:

Cunning wish: My though is it costs 3, and do nothing on it's own, i rather play intuition only, and win/go the next turn :/ (it's a choice, i personally never liked cunning wish.)

Dark ritual: Personnal choice again, i doesn't run necromancy so, i doesn't need it.

7 "protections" 9 with dimir charm , only discards: Not enough for me, clearly.

Dimir charm: I like the idea, and with my taz list it's a kill (i explain after.)

Gitaxian probe: like the card, i played it but cut it after, i have not enough places...

Intuition: 100% right, better than DTT for me, it's your n5/6/7 entomb, can look for a disruption.


Now my list is more control less explosive (i run 2 dragon 1 grisel) no mana accelerator, 19 lands and, 12 "protections" (14 with charm) slots.

WIth taz and charm, i mill the opponent library to 1 card, any card able to draw, and during hiw draw phase, i cast WoC and cast the draw card (at first i destroyed his hand to 0 cards, it's just to kill the opponent at his turn.)

I runned oona at first, but i would like to try taz, the possibility of turning the deck into an aggro control (vendilion/snap/taz) the list is really, really close to an aggro/control UBR, cut the rea spells and the dragons and "voila" plus, the rea spells are not out of the beating plan, you can rea opponents creatures (it's a plan on itself after all)

I will test without the specials lands and 2 taz, maybe i will find something interesting?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

WIth taz and charm, i mill the opponent library to 1 card, any card able to draw, and during hiw draw phase, i cast WoC and cast the draw card (at first i destroyed his hand to 0 cards, it's just to kill the opponent at his turn.)



I dont get it. So you try to make them play their brainstorm? What if you play vs goblins or D&T! Does this work against emrakrul? You have to be very careful because your library is empty!

[Tammit67]

WIth taz and charm, i mill the opponent library to 1 card, any card able to draw, and during hiw draw phase, i cast WoC and cast the draw card (at first i destroyed his hand to 0 cards, it's just to kill the opponent at his turn.)


This doesn't seem to beat an eldrazi unless I am missing something, while forcing you to run suboptimal cards like dimir charm (which is w/e as the card is rarely dead) and Word of Command which is awful.

[Finn]

Jander, I like the idea that Dig can end the dragon recursion. I get that Intuition can do the same if you arrange things that way. But you reduce your options that way. Like if I really need a mill land while I'm in a dragon loop, Intuition can not get it for me unless I already have a way out if the loop. It does feel strange to make this deck without Intuition though.

I realize that there is a lot of noise in here, but...

Surgical Extraction <--- will be an all-star in your deck.

-Ends the dragon loop in a pinch
-Gets around Emrakul recursion. With Tasigur or Snapcaster you do not even need it in your hand when you go off.
-decent generic disruption in this deck
-main deck graveyard hate and random hoser

That is, it occupies a disruption slot in the deck and makes your secondary wincon get around Emrakul.

[Jander78]

Jander, I like the idea that Dig can end the dragon recursion. I get that Intuition can do the same if you arrange things that way. But you reduce your options that way. Like if I really need a mill land while I'm in a dragon loop, Intuition can not get it for me unless I already have a way out if the loop. It does feel strange to make this deck without Intuition though.
I'm not sure I get this, but help me understand how stopping the loop to get a Mill land wins you the game? Don't you have to restart the loop anyway to win once you play the land?



I realize that there is a lot of noise in here, but...

Surgical Extraction <--- will be an all-star in your deck.

-Ends the dragon loop in a pinch
-Gets around Emrakul recursion. With Tasigur or Snapcaster you do not even need it in your hand when you go off.
-decent generic disruption in this deck
-main deck graveyard hate and random hoser

That is, it occupies a disruption slot in the deck and makes your secondary wincon get around Emrakul.
I agree. Surgical Extraction is a great card with the Tasigur loop. If I were running Taz, I would MD at least one as well or keep a Cunning Wish to be able to grab one.

[Finn]

I'm not sure I get this, but help me understand how stopping the loop to get a Mill land wins you the game? Don't you have to restart the loop anyway to win once you play the land?


I agree. Surgical Extraction is a great card with the Tasigur loop. If I were running Taz, I would MD at least one as well or keep a Cunning Wish to be able to grab one.

Sorry, Jander. So busy. No time to run my mouth. There are corner cases where you can do well without the loop. But I don't know how often that will come up.

[Jander78]

Sorry, Jander. So busy. No time to run my mouth. There are corner cases where you can do well without the loop. But I don't know how often that will come up.
No problem. I thought I was missing another combo aspect in there somewhere.

[n0ct3m89]

So, i got a chance to tinker around with the deck a bit at a local legacy tourney. Here are my thoughts and round matchups.

First off, decklist. This was carsten kotters list that i amended and tweaked to suit my style.

4x polluted delta
4x scalding tarn
3x desolate loothouse
2x island
1x mountain
1x swamp
3x underground sea
2x volcanic island
1x badlands

3x snapcaster mage
2x worldgorger dragon
1x griselbrand
1x oona

4x brainstorm
3x lightning bolt
3x thoughtseize
3x entomb
4x ponder
4x animate dead
1x necromancy
2x cunning wish
4x force of will
3x dig through time
1x misdirection

Sb
3x young pyromancer
2x flusterstorm
2x red blast
1x slaughter pact
1x pact of negation
1x echoing truth
1x hurkyls recall
1x lightning bolt
1x stroke of genius
1x surgical extraction
1x misdirection

I cut the explosives/academy ruins package for young peezy. I want a non-graveyard way to interact with the opponent for grindy matchups. Everything else was just tweaks to fit my playstyle.

Round 1 esper3k. Mirror
Game 1
Mull to 6 on the play, keep thoughtseize animate dead ponder brainstorm force swamp.
Lead off with swamp seize. See necromancy bolt ponder and other things. Proceed to laugh. I missed land drops for the next 4 turns and scoop when he thoughtseizes me

Sb -3 bolts + 2 fluster +1 blast

G2 on the play. Thoughtseize into entomb and animate dead with perfect mana and flusterstorm +fow backup. Feels good. Opp boarded in explosives so i figured he was on karstens 75. Went back to the board game 3 so i did as well

-1 oona -1 necromancy -1 dig -1 something +3 pyromancer +1reb

Game 3 on the draw i knew it was going to be more grindy so i wanted pyromancer. I landed t2 pyromancer with forces tseize and reb in hand. Kept on being reactive while opponent spun his wheels. Won with cunning wish for bolt plus attacks.

Round 2 vs rb turbo reanimator.
G1 he flashed me dark rit and sneak attack so i knew he was on some combo. Kept a hand with lands cantrip wish and entomb/animate but no black source. Lost the roll. Got seized t1 lost entomb. He misses his land drops until the end of the game while i brick on black sources. He entombs a griselbrand and with rit animate on the stack i wish for extraction. Feels good. I finally hit black and combo.

He boards a bunch of cards so i trim a bunch of combo pieces.
-1 dragon -1 animate dead -3 bolt +3 peezy +2 flusterstorm.

G2 on the draw i keep a well rounded hand no combo pieces but lots of protection. He leads mountain tormods crypt. I attempt to force he blasts. Ooookay. He makes all his land drops while i cantrip and loothouse. He eventually crypts me to keep me off of dig. I eot loothouse a dragon. Untap pass. He exhumes. Whelp. Aparently exhume is a requirement. He gets griselbrand i get dragon and lose my stuff. Back to my turn i finally draw animate dead. No flinch attack into griselbrand. He blocks and draws a bunch. I get my stuff back and combo.

R3 vs infect
Lose the roll. My opponent has a creature heavy hand with minimal intrraction. I thoughtseize 3 times, get dragon in the yard, cantrip 3 times. He pecks me to death as i never see a bolt or animation spell
On the play game 2 i just want to combo fast.
-1 oona -1 necromancy -1 snapcaster +2 flusterstorm +1 bolt

Lead tseize into ponder. He has a disruptive hand not much pressure so i take glistener elf. This gives me enough time to animate griselbrand. Griselbrand draws me into combo with a bunch of countermagic.

G3 on the draw. I was thinking about bringing in pyromancer but decided against it. After discussing with my opponent after the match it was probably correct as he aparently boarded out blighted agent.

Keep entomb ponder bs 4 lands. Seems good. Opp goes t1 elf. He dazes my ponder. Attack for 1 poison go. He pierces my brainstorm. Whelp. At this point ive drawn nothing relevant so i just pass. He draws, attacks, invigorate bezerk. Good stuff.

Round 4 vs uwr delver. Seems like a bad matchup and opp drew like hot fire.
Lose die roll. Keep cantrips and lands. He leads delver go. Daze first cantrip. I sequence incorrectly and play bs before fetch. He dazes again. I miss my land drop and try entomb. He pierces. He finally flips delver and brainstorms into dig. He aparently dug into 2x force to go with the 2 blue cards still in his hand. Yep

-2 dragon -1 oona -1 necromancy -1 tseize
+3 pyro +2 blast

G2 on the play i mull to a sketchy 6 and lead with ponder. He has t2 mystic i let resolve then bolt. He has a follow up mystic that i force. His 3rd mystic sticks and that plus bskull bring beats. He finds rip the turn before i find dig. Yep.

So 2-2. Not the biggest sample size but it gave enough basic info on the deck. It feels like the decks isnt controlling enough, nor is it fast enough to be true combo. Im perfectly fine with the latter but the former is unacceptable. I want to use snapcaster more in this deck. Probably move the 4th bolt main, and run some number of terminates main. Also, this deck really wants jace. Its an alt wincon, plus gives you staying power. Young peezy was sweet in the board, plus with jace main it gives you a complete transformation board. Also, the mana was aweful. More duals less basics.

Heres where i would go next

3x snapcaster
1x dragon
1x griselbrand
2x jace

4x brainstorm
3x ponder
4x bolt
3x thought seize
3x entomb
4x animate dead
1x terminate
3x cunning wish
4x force of will
3x dig through time

4x polluted delta
4x scalding tarn
1x bloodstained mire
2x desolate lighthouse
4x underground sea
3x volcanic island
1x badlands
1x island
1x swamp

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

LOL. WGD is soft to removal but it's not strictly worse. Each has merits and I'd pick WGD over the other two anytime.

Now Omni-Tell, again, it's a combo deck that doesn't need resources in the graveyard. Different decks, different strokes.

This is my last post. In case you want to try my builds feel free to drop by the other threads. I already broke Worldgorger since last week. Good luck and happy deck building.

Let us let the results speak for themselves. Thank you.

Yo dawg, can I get your list?

[Richard Cheese]

Yo dawg, can I get your list?

11/10 would necro again.

[Admiral_Arzar]

11/10 would necro again.

11/10 would Necromancy again.

[jamie7keller]

Check out Gathering Magic. They just had a new list and very very short deck tech on a worldgorger deck.

I want this to work so so bad.

[sjmcc13]

Check out Gathering Magic. They just had a new list and very very short deck tech on a worldgorger deck.
Thanks, will have a look after work.

I want this to work so so bad. you are not the only one. The combo has always been a personal Fav. I just suck at deck optimizing, and there is no Legacy scene in the remote community I live in (Only way in or out is Air Travel or a long Ski-doo trip).

[jamie7keller]

Thanks, will have a look after work.
you are not the only one. The combo has always been a personal Fav. I just suck at deck optimizing, and there is no Legacy scene in the remote community I live in (Only way in or out is Air Travel or a long Ski-doo trip).

Well our into to Legacy podcast has touched on, and will devote an episode eventually, on how to start up a local scene. My theory is that if you have 2 experienced players, you have 2 players who like Legacy and just don't know it yet. ;)

Also, Lee Sharpe at Wizards said they are currently working on Legacy Leagues and that they are coming. (apparently no one noticed his announcement so out podcast got to "spoil" it without realizing that's what we were doing). So soon everyone with an internet connection will have a local Legacy scene!