[Blog Post] Thoughts on B&R updates

[lordofthepit]

I recently started a new blog with the intention of posting format attendance figures there, but a surprisingly eventful January B&R update prompted me to commit my first thoughts elsewhere: http://lordofthepit23.blogspot.com/2015/01/january-2015-b-update.html

Some comments about Vintage and Modern as well, the latter of which I will never return to again with the loss of Birthing Pod.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Some comments about Vintage and Modern as well, the latter of which I will never return to again with the loss of Birthing Pod.

The thing I'm most surprised about is how people thought Pod was fair or not worthy of a ban. Not getting to play your pet deck I understand, but there was no world where Birthing Pod existed in Modern and didn't take over its entire branch of aggro/aggro-control. Phyrexian Mana just doesn't produce well balanced cards.

[DLifshitz]

Some comments about Vintage and Modern as well, the latter of which I will never return to again with the loss of Birthing Pod.

I feel for you, Pod was a deck I'd always wanted to try, even if I probably couldn't master the very many lines of play with its namesake card.

On the other hand, for a long time WotC has been very uncompromising, ruthless even, about Modern and its predecessor formats - remember how they replaced Old Extended with Double Standard, and then replaced the latter with Modern? And the very beginning, they banned a bunch of cards because they felt like it. I don't mean it like 'You should have seen this coming,' more like Modern has been one drastic change after another, and the best thing is to take it stoically even when they ban something from your favourite deck.

[MrShine]

I'm also sad to see Pod go, never felt like it was totally dominant, especially since Twin was a pretty bad MU, and I share your feelings that BGx is just going to dominate now. Hopefully there will be some silver lining to all this... I personally haven't given up hope for Modern... yet.

I like your thoughts about how Pod actually kept an interesting and non-comparable "engine" deck alive in at least one of the Eternal Formats... now everything does sort of seem a little bit more like Legacy Lite :P

@ Pheonix - I think the fact that both Pod and BGw Midrange existed together, in exactly the same colours, is pretty good evidence that there were multiple viable midrange choices available at the same time. Now I feel like there is only one: quad-Goyf/Rhino/Decay/Liliana.dec

[Dragonslayer_90]

This B&R Update was really disappointing in terms of Modern imo. Feels like a wasted opportunity by Wizards to craft a powerful diverse format without the shackles of the Reserved List via unbanning cards. Call this hypothetical format Legacy lite if you want, but I think a higher powered format drawing on the Modern card pool would still be a different, though similar in some ways, to Legacy. I think I've given up most hope for Modern. By that I mean I'll probably still work towards getting a playset of Shocks for when I do feel like playing Modern again, but at this rate I'm probably not playing the format for at least two years. It's just one ban of the best deck(s) after the other. Thank God I still have Legacy. Otherwise I would have quit Magic a long time ago.

As for the matter of Treasure Cruise in Legacy, I have mixed feelings about it. I think there's valid arguments to be made for and against keeping the card legal, but whatever. Just glad I can continue casting Brainstorm. Long live legacy and Brainstorm.

[Lemnear]

This B&R Update was really disappointing in terms of Modern imo. Feels like a wasted opportunity by Wizards to craft a powerful diverse format without the shackles of the Reserved List via unbanning cards. Call this hypothetical format Legacy lite if you want, but I think a higher powered format drawing on the Modern card pool would still be a different, though similar in some ways, to Legacy. I think I've given up most hope for Modern. By that I mean I'll probably still work towards getting a playset of Shocks for when I do feel like playing Modern again, but at this rate I'm probably not playing the format for at least two years. It's just one ban of the best deck(s) after the other. Thank God I still have Legacy. Otherwise I would have quit Magic a long time ago.

As for the matter of Treasure Cruise in Legacy, I have mixed feelings about it. I think there's valid arguments to be made for and against keeping the card legal, but whatever. Just glad I can continue casting Brainstorm. Long live legacy and Brainstorm.

Moderns problems are housemade and will never go away because of the fact that the formats complete card-history is identical with MaRos creature powercreep focus and the ban-list crafted to keep control & Combo in check. What remained is inevitably the BGx goodstuff we got in the last 10 years and the bannings of Deathrite, P.Fire, Bloodbraid and Pod are just a sign that the BGx midrange core is just miles better than the rest.

But instead of giving control more options to keep these decks and combo in check, they keep banning the greatest offender time and time again and narrow the format. It's totally pointless, as Thoughtseize, Tarmogoyf and Liliana are still the colors backbones. It doesn't matter if they get backed up by Rhino or Bloodbraid at this point.

[Phoenix Ignition]

@ Pheonix - I think the fact that both Pod and BGw Midrange existed together, in exactly the same colours, is pretty good evidence that there were multiple viable midrange choices available at the same time. Now I feel like there is only one: quad-Goyf/Rhino/Decay/Liliana.dec

My division of the format may be arbitrary, but a pile of goodstuff isn't as good as a pile of goodstuff + Pod. Pod was broken, it allowed 2 card combos, endless recursion, and worst of all there was no real answer to it to make people think about not playing it. You could easily play it on turn 2 and the only card that could answer it that early is something like Naturalize (terrible). If they were afraid of a removal they could just wait for an extra mana and play it slightly later to get their value out of it anyway. You can't punish the life loss without an extremely aggressive deck (burn only?), and usually the life loss was made back by kitchen finks-> Rhino. Counterspells aren't good enough in the format to really punish it (Spell Pierce isn't good overall and that's about the only way you'd hope to answer it).

Abzan's pretty good in every format, but it doesn't have the unanswerability + isntakills of Pod.

[Humphrey]

why are you guys discussing modern on a legacy forum?

i think it was a pretty stupid move to ban tc in legacy. it was just another powerful card. And why unban WGD and nothing else?

[lordofthepit]

why are you guys discussing modern on a legacy forum?

i think it was a pretty stupid move to ban tc in legacy. it was just another powerful card. And why unban WGD and nothing else?

I participate in a Facebook chat with a group of local players, mostly about Magic, but often other off-topic stuff. One guy loves to read Bitcoin threads after a big crash and copy and paste sob stories about people who have become financially ruined through poor decisions to commit to Bitcoin. Bitcoin isn't anything that ever interests me or really anyone else in the thread, but humans are naturally fascinated by train wrecks and want to see how they play out.

Modern is Bitcoin in this story, and after years of swearing never to play it, I made a bad decision to do so last month. I guess discussing the Modern B&R change is more interesting than discussing Legacy, just like discussing Bitcoin was more interesting than discussing the dollar or the Euro, because of how hard the format got wrecked.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Moderns problems are housemade and will never go away because of the fact that the formats complete card-history is identical with MaRos creature powercreep focus and the ban-list crafted to keep control & Combo in check. What remained is inevitably the BGx goodstuff we got in the last 10 years and the bannings of Deathrite, P.Fire, Bloodbraid and Pod are just a sign that the BGx midrange core is just miles better than the rest.

But instead of giving control more options to keep these decks and combo in check, they keep banning the greatest offender time and time again and narrow the format. It's totally pointless, as Thoughtseize, Tarmogoyf and Liliana are still the colors backbones. It doesn't matter if they get backed up by Rhino or Bloodbraid at this point.

Thanks for response Lemenear. I find many of your posts more erudite than most, and this one is a great example of that as I think you hit this subject on the nail. This trend is you refer to is something I've also noticed, even if only intuitively. I abandoned Modern a while ago because of it. When Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time came out I was excited at the prospect of Modern going a different direction. But looks like Wizards is continuing the same bull shit. Good riddance. Can't understand how people can continue to support this format. I bet either at the next announcement or within a year Liliana of the Veil gets banned if BGx proves to be "too dominating".


why are you guys discussing modern on a legacy forum?

Because the OP's blog post had some comments about modern? Even if this is primarily a legacy forum, I don't see why we can't generally talk about modern. I think the occasional discussion of it allows for us to engage in eternal format comparison, a topic I find can sometimes be really interesting.

[amalek0]

@dragonslayer_90
More to the Point, what happened in the past of legacy can inform the future of modern, or the difference between the way WOTC handles them can be used to project what at least WON'T happen in modern.

[FoolofaTook]

@dragonslayer_90
More to the Point, what happened in the past of legacy can inform the future of modern, or the difference between the way WOTC handles them can be used to project what at least WON'T happen in modern.

I don't think this is likely to be true though. WotC only has one eternal format that they really care about at this point and that's Modern. That's the format that makes them a lot of money as well as allowing their partners to make a lot of money as well.

They're in custodian mode with both Vintage and Legacy at this point. They might fix outrageous breaks in either format but they won't do anything else. Modern they have a firm hand on and they'll keep banning things that constrict the metagame too heavily. Vintage and Legacy are on their own, at least that's the message I take from the last 5 years or so of bans.

[Lemnear]

@dragonslayer_90
More to the Point, what happened in the past of legacy can inform the future of modern, or the difference between the way WOTC handles them can be used to project what at least WON'T happen in modern.

Pardon? You mean that we see blue, powerful cards legal to fuel control or combo? The color distribution within the Modern banlist is horribly one-sided and most cards had never the Chance to be played in the format.

I could create an extreme example and look at SFM+Jitte+Jace, cards which obviously got preemptively banned because of the previous Domination in STANDARD, but WotC ignored the fact that the deck had to deal with significantly more powerful enemies in MODERN.

[Backseat_Critic]

As for legacy, I am ambivalent on the TC banning. It was, in my estimate, a 50/50 proposition. It was only with us briefly, and it was a common. Basically, like mental misstep, it was best to do something quickly, even if the merits were just debatable (although I feel misstep was basically a slam dunk). I'm not even sure why they bothered with worldgorger. My guess is that they will roll back a card or two each announcement to slowly prune down the ban list.

For modern, this really well sums it up:

"While I have the cards available to play these decks, the GBx-dominated midrange derp-fest that put 6 copies into the top 8 of GP Detroit was a miserable one that I wanted no part of back in 2013, and it's one that I want no part of anymore."

This has been pretty obvious since the earliest days of modern. I think that there will be a lot of gbx midrange mirrors with the occassional combo sprinkled in. The former will be like glorified standard, and the latter will be an abrupt decay check or simple, non-interactive race. Yum. Maybe pod was too good, but it definitely represented a truly modern archetype. I think the main problem is the lack of a decent counterspell that is good against combo, but worse at protecting it. Remand, leak, pierce, and definitely pact are all just as good, if not better, in combo decks than control or tempo. I hate to get all card creation forum, but something like UU counter target spell, split second, this spell can not be played on your turn. That's probably what it would take, but as that's nearly better than counterspell, it would never happen.

Alas, there's always legacy.

Cheers,
Backseat Critic

[FoolofaTook]

I agree on the problem with no Modern counterspells better at defending against midrange combo than protecting it. They just need to reprint Counterspell and they'll put Blue non-combo midrange on the map and probably Blue aggro control into midrange as well. It's the fact that an early breakout with aggro control can't be sustained into the midgame that's the problem. You don't want perfect options to sustain but just a hard no for 2 mana would do wonders in making midrange combo unpredictable enough that it wasn't the clear best choice in the meta.

[ESG]

Modern is Bitcoin in this story, and after years of swearing never to play it, I made a bad decision to do so last month.

Good thing we can learn from our mistakes, eh?

[tescrin]

why are you guys discussing modern on a legacy forum?

i think it was a pretty stupid move to ban tc in legacy. it was just another powerful card. And why unban WGD and nothing else?
A local RUG player (who had played with several variants of Delver and Storm throughout TC) was nearly insulted when Kird Ape started being used in the last couple weeks. His explanation of the situation was poignant:

"When a card is so good it that it's better to run sub-optimal cards next to it; there's a problem"

[DudeItsCorey]

I used to play modern when the format was first being introduced. Then no one played it and I sacked up and purchased a Legacy deck. Best decision ever. I can't understand why someone would play a format where the best cards printed are banned. Then instead of fixing that issue, they keep expanding the gap of what is classified as "one of the best cards". Pod for example is not very good/too slow in legacy, so here is a great card that will never see true competitive play. This is criminal to me. Especially since this is the "eternal format" that wizards is jamming down the player's throats when there is a perfectly great and superior format in Legacy. They would just have to go back on their promise by eliminating the reserve list and reprint the duals and some other cards. Release a set called "Legacy Masters" and embrace the format for what it is. The best magic constructed format. It not like very many decks are that much more expensive than modern decks anyways. Boggles my mind. Also, this is a card game, not the stock exchange. They shouldn't be worried about functional reprints. Just don't reprint Power 9 as those cards aren't even legacy playable. Everyone wins, we get a better format as well as better tournament support and coverage (as the pros would be playing it at GPs and PTs).

Regarding Treasure Cruise ban in legacy. I'm on the fence about it. At first I was clamoring to see it banned. However, after the meta shift you saw more fringe and lower tier decks make a comeback. Storm was better positioned, same with Maverick. MUD and Landstill got top 8 at GP NJ. The only issue was that half of the room is/was playing UR/UWR. I can see how they would like delver players to be evenly spread between BUG/RUG/UWR/UR. However, I'm not too excited that Miracles will possibly become the number 1 deck again. We will have to see the Meta shift and go from there.

[Star|Scream]

I'm actually about $100 (Not counting my refusal to spend $30 for Stone Rain on legs) worth of cards short to get into BGw in Modern, but I'm worried that they'll just ban Lilly or Goyf or something

[Mortox]

I'm actually about $100 (Not counting my refusal to spend $30 for Stone Rain on legs) worth of cards short to get into BGw in Modern, but I'm worried that they'll just ban Lilly or Goyf or something

I wouldn't worry about Lili or Goyf ever getting banned. Historically they go after combo-enablers or cards with too many functions for too cheap a price (DRS for example.) I don't think Goyf or Lili are close to meeting either of those criteria; Lili is maybe the closer of the two but it's still a very "fair" card.

[ESG]

Especially since this is the "eternal format" that wizards is jamming down the player's throats when there is a perfectly great and superior format in Legacy.

Officially, Modern is not classified as an eternal format, although it is a non-rotating format. Cards from Commander and similar supplementary sets aren't legal in Modern, for instance.

[sloppyjoe]

Here's and idea concerning legacy and wizards eternal format monitization/ participation problem...

Scrap this - modern
Quit - trying to bridge standard and legacy with a lame format that you hope people will play so that they will be duped into thinking that buying standard cards won't sink the value of their collections after rotation.
Start - viewing eternal formats and standard like two separate products with different consumer demographics.
Print this - island/swamp etc. when this comes into play reveal the card at the bottom of your library.
Ban this - everything on the reserve list.
Reprint this - every card NOT on the reserve list.
Every year create this - "legacy masters" with 25% brand new eternal format legal cards.
Sell a shit ton of these - packs of "legacy masters".
Host these - legacy Grand Prix every other event.
Stop - banning cards
Start - printing solutions and upgrades that would slot right into tier 2 and 1.5 decks.
Start - printing red/black/green/white cards that make people consider not playing brainstorm.
Start - printing powerful cheap spells to go along with the powerful cheap creatures that we know have been printed/ are in the pipeline.
Print this - a card that makes mono brown viable, something staxish (personal request)
Support - legacy from the ground up by helping people transition from younger standard players to older "eternal" players.
Build - larger arenas to host all of the new players.
Profit!

[Ellomdian]

but I'm worried that they'll just ban [Magic Card] or something

I think this is the big hesitation for a lot of Legacy players in regards to Modern - they just made the most significant banning in years, they unbanned a card that has been on the list for years, and the average value and playability of our collections shifted... nada.

I know a number of people who have pod decks that are effectively worthless from a playability standpoint, and it does not easily translate into another archetype.

Having said that, I think that banning Cruise and Pod in Modern will lead to a short period of 'Innovation' where people will inevitably just play what the pros play at the PT, and that at least they unbanned Grave Troll, easily the Black Vise of the Modern list.

Speaking of which, I am obliged to quote a judge-friend from Canada:


I feel like every time the ban committee talks about unbanning Black Vise, there's some painfully stereotypical man hiding in the corner yelling, "that card is cursed. Cursed I tell ya!" Because he remembers playing against 4 Strip Mine / 4 Black Vise when there were less than a dozen good cards that cost less than 2.

[HSCK]

Here's and idea concerning legacy and wizards eternal format monitization/ participation problem...

Scrap this - modern
Quit - trying to bridge standard and legacy with a lame format that you hope people will play so that they will be duped into thinking that buying standard cards won't sink the value of their collections after rotation.
Start - viewing eternal formats and standard like two separate products with different consumer demographics.
Print this - island/swamp etc. when this comes into play reveal the card at the bottom of your library.
Ban this - everything on the reserve list.
Reprint this - every card NOT on the reserve list.
Every year create this - "legacy masters" with 25% brand new eternal format legal cards.
Sell a shit ton of these - packs of "legacy masters".
Host these - legacy Grand Prix every other event.
Stop - banning cards
Start - printing solutions and upgrades that would slot right into tier 2 and 1.5 decks.
Start - printing red/black/green/white cards that make people consider not playing brainstorm.
Start - printing powerful cheap spells to go along with the powerful cheap creatures that we know have been printed/ are in the pipeline.
Print this - a card that makes mono brown viable, something staxish (personal request)
Support - legacy from the ground up by helping people transition from younger standard players to older "eternal" players.
Build - larger arenas to host all of the new players.
Profit!

This sounds like a really fast way to just kill all of Magic.

[FoolofaTook]

WotC can't ban every card on the reserve list. That would destroy the value of MTG as a collectible game because very few of those cards would meet the definition of game anymore since there'd be no place to actually play with them. Vintage doesn't count because only a small handful of players who will ever play Magic will play Vintage in a competitive game.

Yes, there is a big problem with having both Legacy and Modern around at the same time, that problem being that Legacy makes Modern look pale by comparison and the two formats are essentially competing for the same player base.

There are three paths WotC can go on with the formats and the most likely one is the one we're currently on, which is they support Modern heavily and referee the metagame there and they give lip service to Legacy occasionally by banning truly broken things that they "accidentally" print.

The second path would be to recognize that the reserve list was an error, not in principle but in scope. The dual lands would be reprinted under that path, with some way of compensating collectors and players who own them built in, and become Modern legal. WotC could pick from a selection of Legacy staples on the reserve list and reprint those also, with the understanding that truly rare cards like rare cards that never made it out of Unlimited, Arabian Nights, Antiquities and Legends would remain on the list and still be illegal in Modern play. Legacy would now essentially become an unsupported format while Modern picked up many but not all of it's card options, allowing Legacy and Modern players to play the same game and giving WotC a single eternal format to worry about.

The third path probably follows the one we'll be on in a few years but it happens sooner. WotC announces that Legacy is no longer officially supported by the DCI and that whoever runs Legacy tournaments is free to set their own rules sets in terms of card eligibility as long as they acknowledge that the competition is not supported or sponsored by WotC. This would include allowing the use of proxies in a store run tournament without penalty by the DCI. It lets WotC off the hook in terms of Legacy since they're not killing the format, just not actively involved with it any more. They don't have to worry about bans and restrictions or anything else in regards to what they choose to print moving forward. Legacy becomes a player-run format at that point.

I think we're eventually going to wind up on path three no matter what but I expect it to look like path one for an indeterminate period of time.

[LOLWut]

WotC can't ban every card on the reserve list. That would destroy the value of MTG as a collectible game because very few of those cards would meet the definition of game anymore since there'd be no place to actually play with them. Vintage doesn't count because only a small handful of players who will ever play Magic will play Vintage in a competitive game.

Yes, there is a big problem with having both Legacy and Modern around at the same time, that problem being that Legacy makes Modern look pale by comparison and the two formats are essentially competing for the same player base.

There are three paths WotC can go on with the formats and the most likely one is the one we're currently on, which is they support Modern heavily and referee the metagame there and they give lip service to Legacy occasionally by banning truly broken things that they "accidentally" print.

The second path would be to recognize that the reserve list was an error, not in principle but in scope. The dual lands would be reprinted under that path, with some way of compensating collectors and players who own them built in, and become Modern legal. WotC could pick from a selection of Legacy staples on the reserve list and reprint those also, with the understanding that truly rare cards like rare cards that never made it out of Unlimited, Arabian Nights, Antiquities and Legends would remain on the list and still be illegal in Modern play. Legacy would now essentially become an unsupported format while Modern picked up many but not all of it's card options, allowing Legacy and Modern players to play the same game and giving WotC a single eternal format to worry about.

The third path probably follows the one we'll be on in a few years but it happens sooner. WotC announces that Legacy is no longer officially supported by the DCI and that whoever runs Legacy tournaments is free to set their own rules sets in terms of card eligibility as long as they acknowledge that the competition is not supported or sponsored by WotC. This would include allowing the use of proxies in a store run tournament without penalty by the DCI. It lets WotC off the hook in terms of Legacy since they're not killing the format, just not actively involved with it any more. They don't have to worry about bans and restrictions or anything else in regards to what they choose to print moving forward. Legacy becomes a player-run format at that point.

I think we're eventually going to wind up on path three no matter what but I expect it to look like path one for an indeterminate period of time.

If I agree to have a This Person Is an Asshole disclaimer automatically put at the end of my posts, can we get a This Person Doesn't Know What He/She's Talking About and Talks a Lot disclaimer automatically put at the end of FoolofaTook's posts? I legitimately don't want new or easily-swayed people giving weight to the proclamations. I will sign for that trade right now.

[Ellomdian]

Yes, there is a big problem with having both Legacy and Modern around at the same time, that problem being that Legacy makes Modern look pale by comparison and the two formats are essentially competing for the same player base.

Typical Legacy Elitism makes the rest of your argument invalid. It's much easier to support Modern at the LGS level, and the formats offer enough of a different experience to make both appealing. Modern is a great place to fool around with your Midrange deck and have fun with a legitimate chance of winning - try that in legacy and you are going to get curbstomped. It's also idiotic to suggest that the natural progression from standard should be legacy - if you don't have more than 2-3 seasons worth of standard cards, you probably shouldn't even show up to a Legacy event - but you can comfortably play modern, and we have many, many players who do.

Legacy players who say stuff like this make the rest of us look like idiots. Please stop... :frown:

[Barook]

I wouldn't worry about Lili or Goyf ever getting banned. Historically they go after combo-enablers or cards with too many functions for too cheap a price (DRS for example.) I don't think Goyf or Lili are close to meeting either of those criteria; Lili is maybe the closer of the two but it's still a very "fair" card.
Lili has lots of functions, as you said yourself. It's actually pretty high on my list of "Stuff that gets banned in Modern next because Wizards is too retarded to manage the format".


Officially, Modern is not classified as an eternal format, although it is a non-rotating format. Cards from Commander and similar supplementary sets aren't legal in Modern, for instance.
Modern would benefit alot if they introduced new cards via supplementary product, even they're just reprints of old cards that are too powerful Standard, but exactly right for Modern.

Legacy can cope with alot of stuff way better due to the deeper card pool and thus better answers. As long as they don't introduce alot of anwers to a whole bunch of things into the format, it's doomed to jump from one banning to the next. That doesn't make a good, stable format - all it does is scaring people away.

[twndomn]

The third path probably follows the one we'll be on in a few years but it happens sooner. WotC announces that Legacy is no longer officially supported by the DCI and that whoever runs Legacy tournaments is free to set their own rules sets in terms of card eligibility as long as they acknowledge that the competition is not supported or sponsored by WotC. This would include allowing the use of proxies in a store run tournament without penalty by the DCI. It lets WotC off the hook in terms of Legacy since they're not killing the format, just not actively involved with it any more. They don't have to worry about bans and restrictions or anything else in regards to what they choose to print moving forward. Legacy becomes a player-run format at that point.

I think we're eventually going to wind up on path three no matter what but I expect it to look like path one for an indeterminate period of time.

Wizard has not done any Type 1 events in GP for years, that hasn't stopped Wizard for making banning/unbanning decisions. So I'm not sure what you meant by officially supported. Type 1 and Legacy work, Legacy is especially a functional and alive format, we have Legacy GP attendance to support that claim. I doubt Wizard would ever drop Legacy, since the problem is clearly not Legacy the format's fault, rather the inadequacy of Modern.

Wizard's strategy is pretty clear. Even though Modern and Legacy have the similar players' base. Not the entire population of that players' base can afford to own dual lands. Wizard's intention is to slowly convert Legacy's players' base to Modern, since Wizard will not reprint dual lands, FoW, and cards on reserve list. However, as we all know, Wizard has failed that rather spectacularly by these horrible Modern bannings.

I have to argue the opposite, if you are a Modern player and you have purchased DRS and Pod in the last couple years, it's time for you to see the light, ditch that format and just buy your dual lands and/or FoW once for all. At least you are free from Wizard's periodic banning terror.

[GoblinSettler]

Thanks for an interesting write up on this B/R update. I feel your Pod pain.

In the past, I haven't given modern much thought. Most of my games in the format have been played with budget brews fueled by cards that I already owned. Most cards that interest me are not Modern legal or are already banned. It was not something I planned on spending time or money on.

That changed recently. Legacy has been looking down and Modern up. What had looked, on the outside, to be a trend of banning the current top deck was slowing down. Pod miraculously continued to survive! I became convinced that Pod would always exist as a #PillarOfTheFormat. As, really, it is a cool deck that can't thrive in any other environment.

So, like many others it seems, I finally sucked it up and purchased the random one-ofs to play some variant. In my case, Kiki-Pod.

I understand that some flavor of Pod has been a top deck for some time. I expected it to be banned a year ago. So it finally happening comes as a sudden shock.

I only had a few months with the deck. Thanks for the memories.

See ya, Modern.

[sdematt]

I see you know Max Knowlan as well. He is the judge at the store I play at.

[ReAnimator]

Pod miraculously continued to survive! I became convinced that Pod would always exist as a #PillarOfTheFormat. As, really, it is a cool deck that can't thrive in any other environment.

So, like many others it seems, I finally sucked it up and purchased the random one-ofs to play some variant. In my case, Kiki-Pod.

I understand that some flavor of Pod has been a top deck for some time. I expected it to be banned a year ago. So it finally happening comes as a sudden shock.


Convinced it would exist why? if anything the history of modern should have led you to the opposite conclusion. So you thought it was going to be or worthy of a ban a year ago, then you just decided that since it hadn't got there yet it was never going to, even though it won almost half the GP's? and you got angry about it after you had bought in? This is some crazy rose coloured glasses buyers confirmation bias.

I don't even understand this thought process at all.

[Barook]

Quite a few Modern players would probably be interested in Legacy as well, but the price barrier scares them away. If the Chinese ever got their shit together to flood the market with quality RL fakes to actually dent the prices, things could turn out different.

As it stands, Modern is mismanaged format that thrives on legions of ex-Standard players who don't know any better. That, and price support. I wouldn't be suprised if it was killed off at some point to be replaced with something different like "New Modern" with M15 frames onwards.

[GoblinSettler]

Convinced it would exist why? if anything the history of modern should have led you to the opposite conclusion. So you thought it was going to be or worthy of a ban a year ago, then you just decided that since it hadn't got there yet it was never going to, even though it won almost half the GP's? and you got angry about it after you had bought in? This is some crazy rose coloured glasses buyers confirmation bias.

I don't even understand this thought process at all.

I'm not angry, didn't mean to give that impression.

It seemed like Pod was going to be banned at several points and yet it wasn't. Over time this adds up, to me, to the conclusion that perhaps it has longevity. Akin to a certain card in Legacy that I don't expect to see go, now.

I'm not rage quitting, I just don't see anything else as a special draw for Modern format. Perhaps getting to play the Urza land again?

[ReAnimator]

I'm not angry, didn't mean to give that impression.

It seemed like Pod was going to be banned at several points and yet it wasn't. Over time this adds up, to me, to the conclusion that perhaps it has longevity. Akin to a certain card in Legacy that I don't expect to see go, now.

I'm not rage quitting, I just don't see anything else as a special draw for Modern format. Perhaps getting to play the Urza land again?

Ah, ok i get ya.

[lyracian]

Quite a few Modern players would probably be interested in Legacy as well, but the price barrier scares them away. If the Chinese ever got their shit together to flood the market with quality RL fakes to actually dent the prices, things could turn out different.Sad but true. Most non-Goyf Modern decks are in the $400-$700 range as opposed to Legacy decks being in the $1500-2500 range. I know plenty of players who are happy to borrow my decks but are either not willing or unable to afford to buy Legacy decks of there own. Personally if I did not already own most of the Legacy staples I would not be spending that sort of money on cardboard. Additionally Wizards are trying to keep the price of Modern down with regular reprints of key cards. A few cards like Fetches and Vial are cross format staples but for the most part this does not help Legacy players.


As it stands, Modern is mismanaged format that thrives on legions of ex-Standard players who don't know any better. That, and price support. I wouldn't be suprised if it was killed off at some point to be replaced with something different like "New Modern" with M15 frames onwards.Modern has a pro-tour and three times as many GP's as Legacy which when combined with the deck price all help to make the format look more attractive. Wizards wanted to create a format about creature combat where you could not win the game before turn 3. While I applaud those goals they ended up with a format with even more stupid combo decks than Legacy thanks to the lack of answers.

[Richard Cheese]

Modern is a great place to fool around with your Midrange deck and have fun with a legitimate chance of winning - try that in legacy and you are going to get curbstomped.

As someone who made top 8 in Legacy last week with 4x Siege Rhino, I take issue with this statement.

YOU CAN DO ANYTHING [IN LEGACY] AS LONG AS YOU BELIEVE IN YOURSELF!!!w#!!$!@!

Edit: Would have still rather had Cruise than Delver, but oh well. Sometimes change for the sake of change can be good.

[AgrusKos,EnforcerofTruth]

I used to play modern when the format was first being introduced. Then no one played it and I sacked up and purchased a Legacy deck. Best decision ever. I can't understand why someone would play a format where the best cards printed are banned. Then instead of fixing that issue, they keep expanding the gap of what is classified as "one of the best cards". Pod for example is not very good/too slow in legacy, so here is a great card that will never see true competitive play. This is criminal to me. Especially since this is the "eternal format" that wizards is jamming down the player's throats when there is a perfectly great and superior format in Legacy. They would just have to go back on their promise by eliminating the reserve list and reprint the duals and some other cards. Release a set called "Legacy Masters" and embrace the format for what it is. The best magic constructed format. It not like very many decks are that much more expensive than modern decks anyways. Boggles my mind. Also, this is a card game, not the stock exchange. They shouldn't be worried about functional reprints. Just don't reprint Power 9 as those cards aren't even legacy playable. Everyone wins, we get a better format as well as better tournament support and coverage (as the pros would be playing it at GPs and PTs). This guy gets it. The whole "why do people player Modern when Legacy is about the same price" thing is a little weird though. While it is true that Modern and Legacy decks do come quite close in price sometimes, there are a few distinct differences that keep people out of Legacy. (1) It is easy to trade Polukranos or Elspeth for Birthing Pods and Shocklands, but it is very hard to trade those same cards for Duals and Forces, and (2) Legacy isn't as popular, so while there are few areas that don't have any modern players, there are many areas that don't have a vibrant legacy scene.

Back to the Banlist though, I think Treasure Cruise could have gone either way, but the saver move is banning it. If they hadn't the meta would have likely gone through a parasitic cycle of ridiculous amounts of Delver hate/no Delver hate, and the thing did quite warp the format. I kind of wish it could have stayed because it did bring out some awesome decks, but for the long term health of the format, it makes sense. Dragon is just so Wizards looks like they still care (but they don't), it really won't make an impact, just like the GGT unban in Modern.

[Grand Superior]

I started playing Modern in the middle of last year and this B&R announcement banned my favourite Modern deck (Birthing Pod) and left me with a bunch of untradeable Pod pieces. I can transition very easily to Junk Midrange for that format because I already have the pieces but Modern won't be the same for me without Pod. It's the only Modern deck that truly felt like a Legacy deck and it was also "uniquely Modern." It's a shame it had to go.

I'm very happy with the Legacy changes, though. Treasure Cruise is not a card that I will be missing at all in Legacy and I'm overjoyed that I can play Team America with discard spells/Liliana again.

[lyracian]

This guy gets it. The whole "why do people player Modern when Legacy is about the same price" thing is a little weird though. While it is true that Modern and Legacy decks do come quite close in price sometimes, there are a few distinct differences that keep people out of Legacy. (1) It is easy to trade Polukranos or Elspeth for Birthing Pods and Shocklands, but it is very hard to trade those same cards for Duals and Forces, and (2) Legacy isn't as popular, so while there are few areas that don't have any modern players, there are many areas that don't have a vibrant legacy scene.
That is the reason I built some Modern decks; while it is great playing Legacy it becomes difficult without other players. We had weekly Legacy events at one local shop for almost 4 years but between a few players graduation and others moving on to Net Runner there was not enough players to fire events over the summer so the store owner changed it to Proxy Modern. Fortunately we with the organised play changes another store is now running FNM Legacy and I shall start going to that this week.

[lordofthepit]

Good thing we can learn from our mistakes, eh?

In my defense, I didn't go to that Modern at Card Kingdom tournament back in 2013, which you and several others did.

I suppose facing the mirror five times in six rounds is enough to make anyone quit for good.

[Ace/Homebrew]

If I agree to have a This Person Is an Asshole disclaimer automatically put at the end of my posts, can we get a This Person Doesn't Know What He/She's Talking About and Talks a Lot disclaimer automatically put at the end of FoolofaTook's posts? I legitimately don't want new or easily-swayed people giving weight to the proclamations. I will sign for that trade right now.

Hah! :laugh:
This is actually a very good idea. To be fair I would probably require "This Person Thinks He is Funnier Than He Actually Is" disclaimer, but it would be worth it to get that added to the bottom of Took's posts.

[DudeItsCorey]

This guy gets it. The whole "why do people player Modern when Legacy is about the same price" thing is a little weird though. While it is true that Modern and Legacy decks do come quite close in price sometimes, there are a few distinct differences that keep people out of Legacy. (1) It is easy to trade Polukranos or Elspeth for Birthing Pods and Shocklands, but it is very hard to trade those same cards for Duals and Forces, and (2) Legacy isn't as popular, so while there are few areas that don't have any modern players, there are many areas that don't have a vibrant legacy scene.

I guess I am just fortunate enough to have a thriving legacy scene in southern California. Modern is struggling to have more than 16 people at any given event. Next month we are dubbing Legacy month as we have 3 great tournaments three weeks in a row. It's too bad SCG couldn't host a legacy Open. I guess I will settle for the 5k. At least I have a chance to get a Mox Jet at MTGDeals.

[btm10]

I started playing Modern in the middle of last year and this B&R announcement banned my favourite Modern deck (Birthing Pod) and left me with a bunch of untradeable Pod pieces. I can transition very easily to Junk Midrange for that format because I already have the pieces but Modern won't be the same for me without Pod. It's the only Modern deck that truly felt like a Legacy deck and it was also "uniquely Modern." It's a shame it had to go.

I'm very happy with the Legacy changes, though. Treasure Cruise is not a card that I will be missing at all in Legacy and I'm overjoyed that I can play Team America with discard spells/Liliana again.

I also just built the Junk Midrange Modern deck, but that's because I had to spend less than $100 to get Shocks, Rhinos, and random Modern cards (Path, Slaughter Pact) to finish the whole deck. I'm still missing Rain of Tears on a 2/2 guy, but I can wait on that.

As a fellow Team America player though, I'm actually a little disappointed that they banned Cruise. I don't like BGx being the best thing to be doing in every non-Vintage format, even if it makes deckbuilding easy. I think we could do with a slightly more frequent bannings and unbannings in Legacy (though not as often as it happens to Modern) if only to shake the format up. I'll have fun playing TA again for another...3-6 months, but I'll want to move on sooner rather than later, and the tier 1 of Legacy, if it stays the way it is now, is basically TA, Elves, Miracles, and decks that are worse than those.

[Dragonslayer_90]

I also just built the Junk Midrange Modern deck, but that's because I had to spend less than $100 to get Shocks, Rhinos, and random Modern cards (Path, Slaughter Pact) to finish the whole deck. I'm still missing Rain of Tears on a 2/2 guy, but I can wait on that.

As a fellow Team America player though, I'm actually a little disappointed that they banned Cruise. I don't like BGx being the best thing to be doing in every non-Vintage format, even if it makes deckbuilding easy. I think we could do with a slightly more frequent bannings and unbannings in Legacy (though not as often as it happens to Modern) if only to shake the format up. I'll have fun playing TA again for another...3-6 months, but I'll want to move on sooner rather than later, and the tier 1 of Legacy, if it stays the way it is now, is basically TA, Elves, Miracles, and decks that are worse than those.

BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR... While I think much of the meta will return to the previous status quo from earlier at least initially, not exactly sure that this trend will persist as time goes on since they left Dig Through Time legal. Due to this, I think UWR Stoneblade will continue to be a thing actually, though only in its control shell form (Rudy Brikza Dig lists basically) since all the Pyromancer versions go extinct or are at least significantly worse without Treasure Cruise in the format. I wonder if Show and Tell is actually better due to Dig Through Time. Maybe not Sneak but Omnitell might be a contender. I am willing to admit I might be wrong as well. Maybe Dig, while good, isn't good enough to shake up the meta really and we'll just return to a meta very similar if not the same to pre-KTK legacy.

[btm10]

BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR... While I think much of the meta will return to the previous status quo from earlier at least initially, not exactly sure that this trend will persist as time goes on since they left Dig Through Time legal. Due to this, I think UWR Stoneblade will continue to be a thing actually, though only in its control shell form (Rudy Brikza Dig lists basically) since all the Pyromancer versions go extinct or are at least significantly worse without Treasure Cruise in the format. I wonder if Show and Tell is actually better due to Dig Through Time. Maybe not Sneak but Omnitell might be a contender. I am willing to admit I might be wrong as well. Maybe Dig, while good, isn't good enough to shake up the meta really and we'll just return to a meta very similar if not the same to pre-KTK legacy.

I think we'll still see Omni, and that UR Delver will remain reasonable (even without Cruise) due to Swiftspear, and that people will play various shades of Blade. I'm not sure if that's enough to really shake things up though. Some of the middle tier decks of the pre-Khans metagame will improve, but I wouldn't be surprised if the biggest lasting change we see is the weakening of Elves due to UR sticking around and adding yet another deck against which -1/-1 effects, Forked Bolt, and Pyroclasm are good to the already long list.

As for being careful what I wish for, I don't see WotC being nearly as activist with their ban policy in Legacy as they are in Modern, even if they stepped up their activity.