[WGD] Ub Dragon Reanimator

[death]

JANUARY 19, 2015, BANNED AND RESTRICTED ANNOUNCEMENT

Announcement Date: January 19, 2015
Effective Date: January 23, 2015

Legacy: Worldgorger Dragon is no longer banned.

Worldgorger Dragon has a strange and powerful interaction with Animate Dead.
This used to be too powerful for Legacy. It is not clear that this is more powerful than animating Griselbrand,
and this interaction may add an interesting variant. Worldgorger Dragon is no longer banned.



3 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae¹

4 Entomb
4 Buried Alive
4 Animate Dead
4 Dance of the Dead

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Cunning Wish
4 Pact of Negation

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal

4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Duskmantle, House of Shadow

SB: Stroke of Genius


Whelp. There you have it. We need a quick, solid and consistent plan that doesn't rely on 1-offs like
Nephalia Drownyard, Piranha Marsh, etc. Buried Alive and Cunning Wish are solid. The latter works as
win condition and also provides some resilience to the deck once you factor in a working wishboard.

With infinite blue mana you can: Cunning Wish -> Stroke of Genius your opponent
With a second copy of Entomb -> Oona, Queen of the Fae: Exile opponent's library
With Buried Alive you can: 2 Worldgorger Dragon + Oona, Queen of the Fae in GY


I would rather have a little bit more stability and less glass cannon.

Those interested in a more traditional approach, from the list above you can swap

Buried Alive package:
4 Dark Ritual
4 Buried Alive
4 Cunning Wish

for

Intuition package:
4 Griselbrand
4 Careful Study
3 Intuition
1 Snapcaster Mage


In the list below, Intuition takes both roles of Buried Alive and Cunning Wish:

4 Griselbrand
3 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize

2 Ponder

4 Entomb
3 Intuition
4 Careful Study
4 Animate Dead
3 Dance of the Dead

4 Lotus Petal

4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Duskmantle, House of Shadow


This I believe feels closer to where Dragon wants to be, being the third variant of Entomb decks.
We run Animate Dead/Dance of the Dead +/- Necromancy in place of

Reanimate/Exhume (in Reanimator (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25733-Deck-Reanimator))
Shallow Grave/Goryo's Vengeance (TinFins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24104-TinFins-3-Return-of-the-Onion-Burst)).

Our reanimation spells in contrast are not susceptible to storm hate cards i.e. Envelop and Flusterstorm.

Furthermore,
we don't lose life to our reanimation spells
the effect isn't symmetrical unlike Exhume
we have five ways of binning our creatures
we have 2 instant-speed tutors in the deck
0 Dark Ritual means room for more spells
two Meddling Magi aren't going to stop us

Card Choices
a) Enablers
Entomb - primary enabler, can search for any card. Examples of cards that can be searched of value: Crippling Fatigue, Coffin Purge.
Careful Study - a loot card that supplements Entomb, for instances where you drew creatures or you just want to cycle lands.
Intuition - counts as Entomb 5-8. With Snapcaster Mage you can replay Intuition and find the other half of the combo.
Buried Alive - fulfills the role of Intuition + Snapcaster Mage, for budget reasons. However, unable to stop loop.
Nephalia Drownyard - you use this to find a creature that ends the loop or directly mill out the opponent.
Duskmantle, House of Shadow - cheaper to activate if you are trying to bin a card with Brainstorm.

b) Reanimation
Animate Dead - the first card printed in Magic the Gathering. Primary reanimation since the drawback is only -1/-0.
Dance of the Dead - secondary enabler, drawback is creature CIPT. You can run this into a counter spell first.
Necromancy - costly at CMC 3, the drawback is that it's sacrificed at the end of turn if used as an instant.

c) Creatures
Worldgorger Dragon + Oona, Queen of the Fae + Snapcaster Mage - see below

d) Protection
Force of Will is the only counterspell recommended.
We get more benefit from discard: Thoughtseize, Duress, Cabal Therapy, Inquisition of Kozilek and Unmask.

Sideboard
Chain of Vapor/Echoing Truth - as catch all bounce spells
Dystopia - deals with Deathrite Shaman, Containment Priest, white Leyline and Rest in Peace
Massacre - bring this in against any deck that plays Plains since they might be running hate bears
Engineered Explosives - deals with artifact hate: Grafdigger's Cage, Relic of Progenitus, Pithing Needle
Pithing Needle - use primarily against Sneak Attack/Dark Depths combo, Sensei's Divining Top and Grindstone



http://i.imgur.com/daPewqR.jpg

Worldgorger Dragon + Animate Dead lets you Enter an Infinite loop and "blink" all your permanents, this
is where you generate an absurd amount of mana off of lands since they come back into play untapped. You
can interrupt this loop only with an Instant spell or if Animate Dead ends up enchanting another creature.


First the Worldgorger Dragon needs to be in your graveyard (via Careful Study, Entomb, Buried Alive, or other such cards). Play Animate Dead, which turns into a local enchantment that pulls target creature out of any graveyard into play (meaning the Dragon). The Dragon comes into play, and summarily removes all of your other permanents from the game, including the Animate Dead and whatever lands (or Moxes) you have in play.

When Animate Dead leaves play, however, the creature it was enchanting is destroyed. The Dragon dies. And when the Dragon leaves play, all the permanents it had removed come back into play, including your lands (untapped), and the Animate Dead. Animate Dead pulls the Dragon back out of the graveyard, its comes-into-play ability triggers – at which point you can tap your lands for mana and then everything but the Dragon is removed from the game… again. Repeat. You net an amount of mana per cycle equal to what your mana sources can produce.


How Intuition piles work: 2 WGD + Snapcaster Mage
Opponent hands you SCM: loop with either Dragon, interrupt by casting SCM flashback Intuition.
Intuition for Oona + 2 Griselbrand. Animate Dead switching target to Griselbrand will stop the loop
and you can hardcast Oona. Or if opponent chose to bin Oona, you switch to her and win on the spot.

Opponent hands WGD: interrupt the loop with SCM in the yard, SCM enters play flashback Intuition.
Intuition for Oona + 2 Animate Dead. You can hardcast Oona with your infinite mana or animate her.
Snapcaster Mage can also break the loop if there's an Entomb in the graveyard ready to be recycled.
Flashback Entomb to search for Oona, Queen of the Fae or Griselbrand if Oona is already in your hand.
(The loop ends when Animate Dead enchants another creature in the graveyard instead of Dragon.)


EDIT – For those unaware of the combo, with infi :u:/:b: + Duskmantle, House of Shadow/Nephalia Drownyard
you can mill your deck until you bin Oona, Queen of the Fae. You can then interrupt the loop by switching
Animate Dead target to OQotF and exile your opponent's library using the absurd amount of mana.

You can also mill your opponent out and stop the combo on one of the creatures that ended up in their graveyard.

If you drew a creature, a single Brainstorm + fetchland (or Duskmantle) activation can fix that. Or Careful Study.

Below is the non-FoW/Unmask version of the first deck, Thoughtseize replacing Pact of Negation:

3 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Scholar of Athreos²

4 Brainstorm
4 Cunning Wish

4 Entomb
4 Buried Alive
4 Animate Dead
4 Dance of the Dead

4 Unmask
4 Thoughtseize

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal

4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Duskmantle, House of Shadow



Cunning Wish is miles better than Read the Runes for those still in the dark.
Do I still need to include a reason to play this uber cool classic deck, lol.
http://i.imgur.com/H7wYJND.png

[AngryTroll]

Why are you running 3 Worldgorger? Two seems like it would be plenty.

I can't imagine not running some numbers of Necromancy for the ability to go off at instant speed. Especially with Dark Ritual in the deck the single extra mana doesn't seem like a bad deal. I'm not sure what mix of Animate Dead, Dance of the Dead, and Necromancy I'd run, but it wouldn't be 4/4/0.

Your combo is:
Entomb
Animate Dead or Necromancy
Cunning Wish or a second Entomb
----or----
Buried Alive
Animate Dead or Necromancy

It seems like a few extra combo pieces to go alongside the first plan wouldn't hurt you. I'd want to fit in at least Ponder or Lim-Dul's Vault to help set up the combo, and a few extra combo pieces wouldn't hurt (the lands you mentioned, Piranha Marsh and Nephalia Drownyard, or Baleful Strix seem to me to be the best ones).

I like the Pacts of Negation, but are they better than Thoughtseize? They're certainly faster.

[apple713]

id recommend including a reason why people would play this over something else. Additionally, you have 0 answers main deck to a DRS or abrupt decay. 60% of the time you won't have FOW in your opening and probably even less because you only run 16 blue cards which is the bare minimum. No gitaxian probe to see if you will win the couter war and no discard. Back to the drawing board bro. You are practically unprotected and at that point might as well be playing something like belcher.

[death]

To answer a few questions, 3 WGD but you can downsize to 2. The advantage of 3 is that if you draw 1 or 2 without a Brainstorm in hand, the deck can still function. Also, 2 Deathrite Shamans can't beat Buried Alive -> 3 WGD in the yard. Necromancy as an instant reanimation spell is fine, although too expensive. With 3 mana (Swamp + Dark Ritual) you can just combo off with Entomb + Animate/Dance of the Dead.

4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Nephalia Drownyard

2 Nephalia Drownyard replacing 1 U Sea/1 fetch wouldn't hurt, so we don't have to rely much on finding a win con, Cunnning Wish or second Entomb. Four copies is too much since Nephalia Drownyard doesn't give colored mana and you don't want to draw this land too often. Piranha Marsh is just too slow (CIPT) in a format where you want to race other combo decks and Deathrite Shamans before they become online.

EDIT – For those unaware of the combo, with infi U/B mana + Nephalia Drownyard you can mill your deck until you bin Oona, Queen of the Fae. You can then interrupt the loop by switching the Animate Dead target from WGD to OQotF and proceed to exile your opponent's library using the absurd amount of mana created.


id recommend including a reason why people would play this over something else. Additionally, you have 0 answers main deck to a DRS or abrupt decay. 60% of the time you won't have FOW in your opening and probably even less because you only run 16 blue cards which is the bare minimum. No gitaxian probe to see if you will win the counter war and no discard. Back to the drawing board bro. You are practically unprotected and at that point might as well be playing something like belcher.

Do I still need to include a reason to play this uber cool classic deck, lol. There are 4 Cunning Wishes main deck that I count as answers since they can tutor up almost anything from the board, if you go via Buried Alive route you can just ignore DRS. Gitaxian Probe is not needed, it's poor practice to rely on it to see if it's safe to go off. It is better to anticipate what the opponent can possibly have and sculpt a hand that can beat it. You're also not going to draw Gitaxian Probe in every game, even if you do, the card doesn't offer protection by itself. If your opponent played with his/her hand revealed you still couldn't win if you don't have an answer.

That said, Gitaxian Probe + Cabal Therapy may be added in, in place of some Lotus Petal/Dark Ritual and Pact of Negation. It's also possible to run a discard suite like Unmask + Thoughtseize instead of Force of Will + Pact of Negation counter suite. With Pacts though the deck is much faster if you can just anticipate what the opponent have and sculpt a hand that can beat it. 4 Cunning Wish + Force of Will + Pact of Negation this deck is very far from Belcher bro, lol.

[Michael Keller]

Putrid Imp, perhaps? I mean, if speed is in the equation with Petals and Rituals, wouldn't that at least be a consideration in a shell with more reanimation targets?

[death]

I tested 2 Duskmantle, House of Shadow (functionally the same as Nephalia Drownyard) in place of 2 Misty Rainforest and it definitely helps. I notice the deck now feels much like a 2-card combo. Cunning Wish is miles better than Read the Runes for those still in the dark. Also, Buried Alive over Intuition because the former leaves behind Oona in the yard. This way all you need to do is animate the Dragon, switch target = GG, without having the need for a 3rd combo piece.


Putrid Imp, perhaps? I mean, if speed is in the equation with Petals and Rituals, wouldn't that at least be a consideration in a shell with more reanimation targets?

The more compact the creature package the better. I think that is one advantage of Dragon over traditional Reanimator, we can run less creatures and more spells that actually win the game.

[alphastryk]

Scholar of Atheros is a nice upgrade over Oona because it doesn't target. Props to whoever figured that one out.

I feel like we're getting close to a real list at this point.

[phazonmutant]

I tested 2 Duskmantle, House of Shadow (functionally the same as Nephalia Drownyard) in place of 2 Misty Rainforest and it definitely helps. I notice the deck now feels much like a 2-card combo. Cunning Wish is miles better than Read the Runes for those still in the dark. Also, Buried Alive over Intuition because the former leaves behind Oona in the yard. This way all you need to do is animate the Dragon, switch target = GG, without having the need for a 3rd combo piece.



The more compact the creature package the better. I think that is one advantage of Dragon over traditional Reanimator, we can run less creatures and more spells that actually win the game.

Isn't that the same justification for TinFins? Except TinFins is a 2-card combo with getting Griselbrand in play, this is a 3-card combo where the third card can be a few different mediocre-to-crappy cards (Duskmantle? Yeah).

I guess you don't have to run as much mana acceleration because you can use lands to build mana once you combo, but those fast mana sources also give TinFins some of its explosive power. Buried Alive is a solid step in the right direction for making it a 2-card combo, that's more of what this deck needs. Although from experience with TinFins, Intuition does the same work Buried Alive does except that it pitches to Force, is an instant, and can find reanimation. I'd recommend that over Buried Alive.

[alphastryk]

...Although from experience with TinFins, Intuition does the same work Buried Alive does except that it pitches to Force, is an instant, and can find reanimation. I'd recommend that over Buried Alive.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure Intuition doesn't work out so well here - we need to get two specific and different creatures in the yard - we can't cast the second one, it needs to be in the graveyard to end the loop.

As far as I know, only Buried Alive and Gifts Ungiven can do that without including some other terrible card in the deck to get the second man back into the yard (Gigapede, Raven's Crime etc).


Edit - thinking about Gifts got me to a slow true 2-card combo list - Gifts and Buried -> Animate / Dance

Here's a really rough shot at it:


1 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Scholar of Athreos
4 Buried Alive
3 Gifts Ungiven
4 Animate Dead
3 Dance of the Dead

4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Marsh Flats

[jvmauck]

I posted this into the other WGD thread, but I figured I should post it here as well.

4 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
2 Griselbrand

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Entomb
4 Cunning Wish

2 Careful Study
3 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize

4 Animate Dead
3 Dance of the Dead
2 Necromancy

4 Lotus Petal

4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Swamp
1 Island
2 Nephalia Drownyard
2 Duskmantle, House of Shadow

SB:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pact of Negation
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Misdirection
1 Intuition
1 Scholar of Athreos

[death]

I think we are near towards a common build. 3-4 cards different but majority of the pieces are locked in.


Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure Intuition doesn't work out so well here - we need to get two specific and different creatures in the yard - we can't cast the second one, it needs to be in the graveyard to end the loop.

As far as I know, only Buried Alive and Gifts Ungiven can do that without including some other terrible card in the deck to get the second man back into the yard (Gigapede, Raven's Crime etc).


Those interested in a traditional approach, from my list in the OP try swapping out

Buried Alive package:
4 Dark Ritual
4 Buried Alive
4 Cunning Wish

for

Intuition package:
4 Griselbrand
4 Careful Study
3 Intuition
1 Snapcaster Mage


How Intuition works:
Intuition for 2 WGD + Snapcaster Mage
Opponent hands you SCM: loop with either Dragon, interrupt by casting SCM flashback Intuition.
Intuition for Oona + 2 Griselbrand. Animate Dead switching target to Griselbrand will stop the loop
and you can hardcast Oona. Or if opponent chose to bin Oona, you switch to her and win on the spot.
Opponent hands WGD: interrupt the loop with SCM in the yard, SCM enters play flashback Intuition.
Intuition for Oona + 2 Animate Dead. You can hardcast Oona with your infinite mana or animate her.

credit: Caleb Durward

[death]

4 Griselbrand
3 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize

2 Ponder

4 Entomb
3 Intuition
4 Careful Study
4 Animate Dead
3 Dance of the Dead

4 Lotus Petal

4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Duskmantle, House of Shadow

In this list, Intuition takes the place of Buried Alive/Cunning Wish. Having Griselbrand on the team makes for a formidable combination. The difference between this and traditional Reanimator is that this one has the option to win on the spot or ride Griselbrand to victory. Our reanimation spells are also less susceptible to storm hate cards i.e. Envelop and Flusterstorm.

[Jander78]

What's the advantage of reanimating Griselbrand over just winning with Dragon? Dedicating 4 more slots to an uncastable creature seems like overkill.

[L-Luck]

if you go via Buried Alive route you can just ignore DRS

Really, how? Seems like Tropical Island + Deathrite just counters your reanimation spell indepently on the number of Dragons in your grave since you most certainly can't run Exhume.

[Finn]

Pact of Negation and Oona in the same deck makes no sense. The whole point of Oona is that she can attack the next turn.

[death]

What's the advantage of reanimating Griselbrand over just winning with Dragon? Dedicating 4 more slots to an uncastable creature seems like overkill.

Dragon requires a 3rd combo piece which you might not have at the time you can reanimate. Griselbrand lets you find those missing pieces and do it all again, in addition it can find silver bullets and countermagic for hate cards, while being an active blocker or potential game ender.

In short, he gives you an option to win and not just draw with Dragon. I have seen the deck above in action but I haven't tested it myself and 3 might be the correct number. Against Show and Tell, putting him into play just lets you take over the game, a nice option when you don't have anything to stop the Dragon from looping.


Really, how? Seems like Tropical Island + Deathrite just counters your reanimation spell indepently on the number of Dragons in your grave since you most certainly can't run Exhume.

That's only possible if you have multiple reanimation spells available.


Pact of Negation and Oona in the same deck makes no sense. The whole point of Oona is that she can attack the next turn.

It doesn't in a deck with Griselbrands where Thoughtseize is better. In a dedicated Dragon deck however you almost never attack with anything.

[Finn]

It doesn't in a deck with Griselbrands where Thoughtseize is better. In a dedicated Dragon deck however you almost never attack with anything. Right. So you don't use Oona, who is there because she can attack, but she does not kill on the spot. Try one of the other kill-now creatures like Duskmantle Guildmage or the invoker.

[LennonMarx]

Right. So you don't use Oona, who is there because she can attack, but she does not kill on the spot. Try one of the other kill-now creatures like Duskmantle Guildmage or the invoker.

Oona does kill on the spot for all intents and purposes. You exile their entire library and pass the turn and they die in their draw step. If pact is the concern it will never come back around to your upkeep to matter. The fact that in some spots you can animate her "for value" is just bonus.

[death]

The latter doesn't pitch to Force of Will, the former just enables your opponent's DTT which can be used to find an answer like Trickbind. Scholar of Athreos is the second best creature since she doesn't target (value against white Leyline and Solitary Confinement) and doesn't die to cards like Sudden Shock.

[troopatroop]

Love the work you've done death, I respect your opinion alot on combo.

If you could, break down some reasons why the deck is good? Some idiosyncrasy that might not be obvious?

Also, is there a "best" list currently? Is it the top of the thread? Thanks, and Great work.

[death]

This is a collaborative effort from people here on The Source and I do not take sole credit. I'm just putting information that's already out there and prepping a foundation.

The deck is good because of the cheap and redundant pieces supported by a chain of cantrips. These factors dictate its speed, hence why I didn't include Necromancy. It can pack protection in the form of countermagic/ discard. The deck is fragile, but it is more resilient to discard than your average 2-card combo. Black being the default color means you have access to Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy and Duress. You kill hate bears with Massacre. For Deathrite Shaman, Rest in Peace and Leyline of Sanctity there's Dystopia. Blue gives access to bounce spells. These are exactly the tools you need to ameliorate its weakness.

Griselbrand is what I'm running now because of the reasons I previously posted.

[Jander78]

Dragon requires a 3rd combo piece which you might not have at the time you can reanimate. Griselbrand lets you find those missing pieces and do it all again, in addition it can find silver bullets and countermagic for hate cards, while being an active blocker or potential game ender.

In short, he gives you an option to win and not just draw with Dragon. I have seen the deck above in action but I haven't tested it myself and 3 might be the correct number. Against Show and Tell, putting him into play just lets you take over the game, a nice option when you don't have anything to stop the Dragon from looping.
Having one as a silver bullet is fine, but running four of them seems like overkill. If you want 3 against Show and Tell, I'd keep them in the sideboard, unless your environment is overrun with S&T.

[death]

Jander's 75

4 Baleful Strix
3 Worldgorger Dragon
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize

2 Ponder

4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
3 Intuition
4 Entomb
4 Animate Dead
3 Necromancy

4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Nephalia Drownyard
2 Duskmantle, House of Shadow

Sideboard:
1 Stroke of Genius
3 Massacre
1 Dismember
1 Wipe Away
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Pact of Negation
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Explosives

From your list, I would cut -4 Baleful Strix -2 Ponder -1 Probe -3 Necromancy for +4 Griselbrand +3 Careful Study +3 Dance of the Dead. Griselbrand is a solid Plan B.

Cunning Wish replaces Oona in this build. The Intuition piles will look like this: (2 WGD + Snapcaster Mage)
Opponent hands SCM: loop with either Dragon, interrupt by casting SCM flashback Intuition. Intuition for Cunning Wish + any 2 cards. Loop one time with Dragon to remove and then bring back SCM, this time SCM can target Cunning Wish (or you cast it) for a Stroke of Genius.
Opponent hands WGD: interrupt the loop with SCM in the yard, SCM enters play flashback Intuition. Intuition for 2 Cunning Wish + second SCM. This allows you to either cast Wish or replay it from the graveyard with Snapcaster Mage.
Snapcaster Mage can also break the loop if there's an Entomb in the graveyard. Flashback Entomb for Cunning Wish. Loop again and this time SCM can target Cunning Wish in the graveyard.

[death]

Here's the sideboard I've come up with for the main deck in the OP or post #12:

4 Surgical Extraction
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
2 Dystopia
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Engineered Explosives

I like that the last 3 overlap in function and they sort of protect each other from Pithing Needle, Gaddock Teeg and Chalice of the Void. I wanted to run Sadistic Sacrament or Cranial Extraction/Memoricide for ANT and Omni-Tell but I figure discard + extraction do the same. It's tempting to run Abrupt Decay and Pernicious Deed but that package requires 2 additional slots in the sb dedicated to lands. With Wasteland back, BUG and MUD on the rise, that seems like a bad idea.

Massacre is a narrow answer against decks that run Containment Priest/Meddling Mage in the sideboard since they also run Rest in Peace. Dystopia single-handedly takes care of those including Leyline of Sanctity as I mentioned before.

Only 2 Therapy since the deck has no Gitaxian Probe, no way of peeking outside of Thoughtseize/Duress and no cheap creature to enable flashback so I want it to be potent. Here are what you usually name with Cabal Therapy if it resolves based on whatever lands the opponent have on the board:

Tundra - Swords to Plowshares
Volcanic Island - Stifle
Underground Sea - Abrupt Decay

Another reason to have Griselbrand in the deck is that you can invalidate creature removal namely Swords to Plowshares. The advantage of our deck over Reanimator is that we don't have situationally dependent creatures like Iona and Elesh Norn. Worldgorger Dragon is non-legendary, ignores the combat phase and can win now so we don't lose to Karakas, Maze of Ith, Ensnaring Bridge, stuff that prevent damage i.e. Glacial Chasm, and we can race Marit Lage. It won't matter if an opponent has infinite life as Oona (library death) and Scholar of Athreos (infinite life loss) can deal with that.

[Searys]

Hello! I'm building the deck too since the deban of the dragon, and after playing with grisel i decided to cut it along with careful study, my actual list:

creatures:

4 snapcaster mage
3 worldgorger dragon
1 Oona

Enchants:

4 animate dead
4 dance of the dead

Sorcery:

4 cabal therapy
4 ponder
4 thoughseize

Instants:

4 brainstorm
4 entomb
3 intuition
4 pacts of negation (I'm thinking about a switch with FoW)

Lands (17):

2 Duskmantle, house of shadow
2 nephalia drownyard
4 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
4 underground sea
1 swamp
2 island

I decided not to play careful study, when i draw a dragon i can discard it with cabal/thoughseize but the best plan is generally to shuffle it with braintorm. I'm not sure of this plan, i tested a version with 4 grisels/3 dragons too and running 4 entomb/4 careful, the plan was to fully use careful study, BUT my problem was when i reanimated a grisel i couldnt reanimate the dragon the same turn, means i couldn't kill during the turn (and my list have been criticized for that)

The big advantage of playing intuition is, you cast it t3 eot and you can kill t4, with a lot of back-up, but i would like to create a list playing griselbrand (and i don't think intuition is necessary in this kind of lists)

[death]

Thanks for sharing your list. I think you lose explosiveness and flexibility though without Careful Study/Griselbrand. I'd rather have him eat Swords, Stifle and Decay than Dragon.

Thinking of revising my sideboard into this:
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
2 Massacre
2 Pithing Needle
2 Chain of Vapor

The previous sb I posted is geared towards grindy matchups but are poor top decks and do nothing on the spot compared to Massacre, Needle and Chain Vapor which are more efficient and can beat the clock.

[phazonmutant]

I'm not sure this is the right thread to post a tournament report with Carsten's control-combo list, but I didn't want to create yet another WGD thread. The quick summary is that I went 3-1 with the deck and it felt quite strong.

1 Griselbrand
2 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
3 Entomb
4 Animate Dead
2 Necromancy
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Dig Through Time
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
2 Cunning Wish
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea

// Sideboard
1 Dig Through Time
2 Flusterstorm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Academy Ruins
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Echoing Truth
1 Entomb
1 Misdirection
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Lightning Bolt

The differences from Carsten's list:
-1 Island, +1 Sea : I know from traditional reanimator that it's very color intensive, especially with black, so I was pretty sure 2 basic Islands would screw me more than help.
-1 Necromany, +1 Animate Dead : Most of the permission costs mana (Thoughtseize / Duress, Flusterstorm postboard), so having the cheaper effect is likely to be way more relevant than instant speed. For the most part I think this is correct, although a couple times I drew an Animate Dead and wished it was Necromancy.
-1 Pact of Negation, +1 Pyroblast : Pact of Negation just isn't a very good card, and there are plenty of counterspells in the board already. The deck doesn't need to go all-in against permission, but Pact forces you to. Pyroblast should help out with Counterbalance, something I was expecting to be a problem.

R1 Reanimator with Deathrite Shaman 1-2. Weird brew but he's done well with it before. He ripped like a champion in games 1 and 3. Deathrite was a problem in game 3, so having Bolts and Necromancy in the deck gave me plenty of live draws. I boarded down a basic here, seemed fine.
R2 Jund Pox 2-0. I #yolod against a couple of cards in hand and open mana, and fortunately he Abrupt Decayed my Animate Dead with its reanimate trigger on the stack instead of with Dragon's cip trigger. I cantripped some and drew another before he killed me. Game 2 he Surgicaled my Griselbrand, but Loothouse was great and drew me into the combo again.
R3 Esper Monastery Mentor 2-1. Mentor was incredibly good. I tried Bolting it, he Forced, then made the mistake of Snapcastering Brainstorm instead of Bolt. I had another Snapcaster in hand and wanted to make land drops. I'm pretty sure my late game was better, but died in short order to Mentor. Game 2 was drawn out. I had the EE-Ruins combo, but he Surgicaled that away. He also Surgicaled a Griselbrand I went for before Dragon. Then he had Clique-Karakas when I had Dragon in bin. He tapped all but one land EoT to recast Clique, I responded with Necromancy, and won from there. Loothouse was again stellar here. The third game he was mana screwed and I won by beating down with a Snapcaster and Mentor that I Thoughtseized and Animated.
R4 Grixis Control 2-1. Game 1 I Entombed for Griselbrand because he was leaving mana open. He stuck and pretty much won the game. Game 2 he had Cage, Hymn, Rakdos Charm, and several Digs. Long game, and I almost won despite all the disruption. Game 3 I Thoughtseized him a couple times, but then he Rakdos Charm for my attempt for Griselbrand. So I just made land drops and hard-cast Oona. He did kill it with two Bolts, but I just Animated it again. Oona won pretty quickly too.

My takeaway from the night was that the deck could play a powerful combo-control game. This style of deck could go toe-to-toe with the control decks in the format and just find a little window even going late to win the game. Lighthouse was great, and Animating their creatures was very solid. Cunning Wish did a lot of work, I'm tempted to find room for another. I think this was much better than more traditional balls-to-the-wall style reanimator decks because my deck was just better than my opponents' at going long, not typical for a combo deck. Definitely going to play this deck some more.

[Searys]

There is one fundamental reason why i doesn't like his list, why red??? Man he only plays lightning bolt who is probably the WORST card for killing creatures... And desolate lighthouse, he can argues as long as he wants but it takes you 4 manas for draw one discard one, if he wants something like that why not playing Dack fayden (the planeswalker)?

Dack is the ONLY reason, with pyroblast eventually, i could splash red in this deck... Gives you a careful study per turn and can take away relic of progenitus and tormod crypt.

Green gives you xanthid swarm, eventually the enchantment aura for lands (draw when it comes into play, mana fixer, cost only G).

White gives you orims cantic/silence, abeyance, STP! (even if i don't like the idea), for a control plan you even have replenish (not fully serious here but in late game eventually...)

Except the splash, i like the idea of your list, i also think mana boost is clearly not the best option with WGD combo, a more control version is the best, if you play VS combo you can disrupt it then killing before it and VS control you can just wait to have a window to kill.

You play 22 lands too, maybe it's too much? i don't like Cunning wish, prefer intuition, same cost, may search the same things except if it's game 1, but in game 1 your opponent just pack DRS against the grave, and you can search bolt against it (and 2 more in you grave, thanks snapcaster!)

[death]

Nice finish phazonmutant! Re: Lightning bolt, it gives you reach when attacking with a Griselbrand, burn makes him a 2-turn clock. Killing creatures without removing them from the game also makes it possible to stop the loop on their creature and hardcast Oona.

My takeaway from Carsten's article (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30214_Enter-The-Dragon.html) is that yawg. bargain + infinite mana is scary enough that jamming the 12-13 card package into Grixis shell is a viable option. The deck certainly loses speed and might be terrible against combo decks optimized to beat control since it doesn't have creatures to put them on a fast clock outside of assembling the combo.

[BTY]

There is one fundamental reason why i doesn't like his list, why red??? Man he only plays lightning bolt who is probably the WORST card for killing creatures... And desolate lighthouse, he can argues as long as he wants but it takes you 4 manas for draw one discard one, if he wants something like that why not playing Dack fayden (the planeswalker)?

Dack is the ONLY reason, with pyroblast eventually, i could splash red in this deck... Gives you a careful study per turn and can take away relic of progenitus and tormod crypt.

Green gives you xanthid swarm, eventually the enchantment aura for lands (draw when it comes into play, mana fixer, cost only G).

White gives you orims cantic/silence, abeyance, STP! (even if i don't like the idea), for a control plan you even have replenish (not fully serious here but in late game eventually...)

Except the splash, i like the idea of your list, i also think mana boost is clearly not the best option with WGD combo, a more control version is the best, if you play VS combo you can disrupt it then killing before it and VS control you can just wait to have a window to kill.

You play 22 lands too, maybe it's too much? i don't like Cunning wish, prefer intuition, same cost, may search the same things except if it's game 1, but in game 1 your opponent just pack DRS against the grave, and you can search bolt against it (and 2 more in you grave, thanks snapcaster!)

After playing some games with this I definitely like the red splash. I don't think the deck is interested in a saturation of loot effects like dack fayden, or faithless looting and the loothouse gives you a kill with the combo and a reasonable way to grind when games go long. Since the combo is reasonably fragile because of abrupt decay games go long a lot of the time so you generally have time to get value out of the loot house. Bolt, while not necessarily stellar, it gets the job done of killing their delvers, deathrites, SFM, etc. Sure it misses goyf but that is the only creature I can think out that sees consistent play in the format that it doesn't kill. Sure eventually someone will play something like KotR or maybe even Siege Rhino or something ridiculous like that but otherwise bolt has been fine. Even if someone taps out for a goyf or something you can always just answer it with the combo and kill them. I think loothouse is a lot better than the other options in other colors since it is a combo piece with utility. It will also sometimes eat wasteland instead of one of the duals.

I'm not sure the deck wants things like xantid swam or silences, with the counters and discard you do a pretty good job of disrupting their defenses (or offense which neither swam nor silence deal with) that they just seem like overkill.

On cunning wish I think that it is great, the flexibility is fine sure, but the ability to leave dedicated combo pieces in the board is a distinct advantage. Sometimes Oona takes one for the team and pays for force of will and you need to wish for a BSZ or whatever draw spell you prefer to kill the opponent.

[Searys]

I think i was not clear, my problem with bolt is that it's not as efficient as another card could be, there is much better anti-creature in black, so why splash red to run bolt? Adding the fact that lighthouse is different from duskmantle and nephalia but unless these two, it's not a kill (you will say it's the same, but not totally)

Playing control is, i think, a good idea, playing more efficient card and less careful effect (careful study, faithless looting...) reducing the "combo" package at it's minimum, but th fact is, why playing this so?

the combo cost B + 1B (basically with no careful effect the only efficient way to put WGD into the grave is entomb) and is a 2 card combo

If we look at omnitell, the combo cost 2U (monocolor) and kill almost instantly with a tutor

I was thinking, why playing WGD over omnitell in a control version then? the cost is almost the same (thus in WGD combo you can cast entomb EOT diminuating the cost to 1B for the actual turn, that's true) the number of cards required in the deck is quite the same too (4 omni 4 show for omnitell 4 entomb 2 dragon 5/6/7 reanimation spell)

This is a true question, in a "combo" version of the deck, you have 3/4 WGD and careful study OR intuition (or the two of them) multipliying the probabilities of activating the combo (comparing it to omnitell, again)

But not in the control version, so why playing this combo on top of omnitell with a control shell ? And why playing (again) cunning wish over intuition, when they search for the same cards (main deck g1 you only need to kill DRS, eventually other threats but that's rare so intuition can search for bolt/STP/other anti-creature.) and post sideboard too. But intuition can put the dragon into the grave without using intuition wich can be good (better than cunning wish.)

(Sorry if i'm not clear enought, i'm french and even if my english is not so bad it's quite hard to give an opinion.)

[death]

The only efficient black anti-creature cards I can think of are Ghastly Demise, Vendetta, Dismember and Muderous Cut. The first two doesn't hit Deathrite Shaman, the third costs 4 life and the last eats away your graveyard. The latter two also don't pair well with Snapcaster Mage. I guess you could run Innocent Blood but you could miss taking a DRS since it doesn't target. There is Go for the Throat which is worse than Abrupt Decay.

Omni-Tell is a 3-card combo that is soft to Hymn to Tourach and pinpoint discard unless played perfectly. Reanimator is more resilient and can avoid taking splash damage from Storm hate i.e. red blasts, Envelop, Flusterstorm, including Surgical Extraction.


Adding the fact that lighthouse is different from duskmantle and nephalia but unless these two, it's not a kill (you will say it's the same, but not totally)

In Carsten's defense, Desolate Lighthouse is used mainly as utility. Since it counts as land it frees up slot for Careful Study in the main deck, not that you'd need it often though but it's a nice feature in case you draw WGD/GB or if you just want card selection. Loot house can enable a kill because it bins Oona. In instances where Oona is removed from the game, remember the deck still have Cunning Wish which you can also Entomb for/Loot house and flashback via Snapcaster Mage. SCM in hand can flashback Entomb, one cycle with the Dragon and SCM returning back can target whatever is there on each iteration.

[phazonmutant]

Agreed with what Death has to say. Loothouse is surprisingly good as a way to make sure that my late game is better than actual control decks'.

Bolt is really not that bad. If you're draw is looking like Goyf will kill you before you kill them, then just Force it. Otherwise Bolt kills everything. One example, against Pox Bolt definitely was worse than Swords at removing his Nether Spirit. But I Bolted it twice, and that bought me enough time to go for the kill twice.

The other big thing that red gets you besides Lighthouse is Red Blast. That's almost reason enough to be in red. It's tough to play a control deck without red.

A big reason to prefer this to Omnitell is that Animate Dead on their guys is actually just insane. If you've ever done cube drafts, you'll know what I'm talking about. Animate Dead and Necromancy are high picks even in non-combo decks just as value - you discard or kill their creature and then borrow it. Winning games with Snapcaster and their creatures is very realistic. Show and Tell and Omniscience are both pretty awful drawn by themselves.

[ShiftyKapree]

current list:
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Worldgorger Dragon
4 Animate Dead
4 Dance of the Dead
4 Brainstrom
4 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
4 Careful Study
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Thoughtseize
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Undergound Sea

Sideboard:
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Extirpate
1 Hibernation
1 Misdirection
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Wipe Away

Deck is very resilient to many things, only problem i had was Lands, still in the work of it not completely happy with the list. Wins on turn two very consistently, hand hate allows us much needed protection only problem is drs

[Holden1669]

@phazonmuant: thanks for the report. I have played only a couple of matches with Carsten's list but i like it so far. I posted my early thoughts in another Worldgorger thread:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29072-SCD-Worldgorger-Dragon-Combo&p=865865&viewfull=1#post865865

I'm tempted to try something other than red but I do like the Loothouses (good name) and want to keep trying them for a while.

[death]

@ShiftyKapree: any reason why you don't have Entomb/Cabal Therapy/mill land? I personally would not cut 3 Worldgorger so Intuition never fails in case I draw WGD, saves the hassle of going for Careful Study in the pile, in cases where Counterbalance/Chalice is set at 1.

Therapy and Probe goes well together like eggs and bacon, strips away drs too.

[Searys]

Agree with death, no entomb? Just 2 dragons when you run intuition? Seems dangerous...

Personnaly i play 2 dragon AND intuition but i play griselbrand too, so when i cast intuition there is alway a big guy in the grave.

I'm playing bicolor and decided not to splash, because i love the stability of playing only two color, i'm now sure that playing careful study is a bad idea, intuition x2/3 and entomb x4 is enough, my version is not as control as the red one, but is still really resilient (4 fow/pact , 8/9 discard, 3/4 snapcaster) i'm thinking about playing DTT but i'm short in places. :frown:

[Kobal]

Asking those of you that already tried Carsten's controllish version:

Similarly to the more direct combo approach I am wondering what makes this better than the same list with more Griselbrands instead of Worldgorger Dragon and Oona. Basically a controllish Reanimator list. Your plan would not change much, but you could afford to reanimate griselbrand even when there's the real risk of an opposing removal spell, simply to draw 7 cards and try again next turn while with Worldgorger Dragon you have to be really sure that the coast is clear.

Actaully hardcasting Oona can be a viable plan if the game goes long against BUG, but is that reason enough?

[BTY]

Asking those of you that already tried Carsten's controllish version:

Similarly to the more direct combo approach I am wondering what makes this better than the same list with more Griselbrands instead of Worldgorger Dragon and Oona. Basically a controllish Reanimator list. Your plan would not change much, but you could afford to reanimate griselbrand even when there's the real risk of an opposing removal spell, simply to draw 7 cards and try again next turn while with Worldgorger Dragon you have to be really sure that the coast is clear.

Actaully hardcasting Oona can be a viable plan if the game goes long against BUG, but is that reason enough?

There is the instant kill factor and you aren't weak to karakas. I haven't played the deck enough so I don't know well enough to tell you if it is actually better than griselbrand, I can say it is cooler which is a big reason why I have been preferring WGD to griselbrand reanimator decks.

[alphastryk]

Asking those of you that already tried Carsten's controllish version:

Similarly to the more direct combo approach I am wondering what makes this better than the same list with more Griselbrands instead of Worldgorger Dragon and Oona. Basically a controllish Reanimator list. Your plan would not change much, but you could afford to reanimate griselbrand even when there's the real risk of an opposing removal spell, simply to draw 7 cards and try again next turn while with Worldgorger Dragon you have to be really sure that the coast is clear.

Actaully hardcasting Oona can be a viable plan if the game goes long against BUG, but is that reason enough?

The fact that you win immediately instead of just making a man is a huge difference. I wouldn't want to try this the other way.

[Svknoe]

Being able to win instantly in their end step, and if needed try again on your own turn is pretty good. In control mirrors it becomes pretty difficult for them to ever tap out.

[Searys]

Testing word of command right now, i think about cutting my 4 cabal therapy for that, my disruption is now 4 fow (or pact, i'm not sure), 4 thoughseize, 4 word of command 1 duress (and 4 snapcaster, eventually)

I was frankly not aware of the potential of the card (i didn't even now the card until a few hours.) but in a bicolor version it seems like the best possible and polyvalent protection you can play (and, i can't think another deck can run it so perfectly)

Now, why playing a BB card over a simple discard?

There is a lot of reasons, first is preparation for the big turn, the Word of command (WoC) can be cast EOT of your opponent, allowing you to cast entomb+reanimation spell t3 (impossible with a classic discard) More than that, if the opponent plays creatures AND anti-creatures, you can simply cast an anti-creatures in one of these creatures (we only play 3/4 snapcaster mage, he generally will have some creatures disruption in his hand!) it's a counter against DRS/ooze main deck, depending of your opponent hand, it's possible to use up all of his mana (EOT he has 2 lands untapped and a DRS, that's bad for you, you just have to cast a spell of him with a CCM of 2, now your opponent can't activate DRS!) THAT is the point, depending of his hand you can force him to pass the turn with no lands untapped, wich means in G1 you just have to fear FOW!

The second real power of Word of command is, information. First you see his hand the turn before your Big turn, wich is basically like a gitaxian probe for BB, but you can see his sideboard!! Meaning if you cast it and it resolves you can see every hate the opponent will use against you G2/G3, and can adapt to it without surprise! (what?? He played extirpate g2? i'm fucked... If only you knew that before eh?)

It's hard to explain in english but the power and potential of this card is incredible, i fell in love. It can from my point of view can be seen as a "tap all lands your opponent control EOT and look at his hand and sideboard" or "kill a creature an opponent control with his own spell and look at his hand and sideboard" this card can even completely fuck up a brainstorm!

[dte]

Word of Command does not half the thing you think it does. Sure, in some situations, it can be amazing, but generally it is a bad card. Why do you think you never saw a copy in any other combo deck?
It does nothing against counterspells, clock or whatever and is often CD. Against DRS, DRS ability is not a mana ability, so you can't tap it for mana.


Otherwise, in a control deck featuring entomb and lighthouse I would play a lone copy of deep analysis. And I really think that there is no better kill for this deck than Tasigur.

[VeniVidiVici]

Asking those of you that already tried Carsten's controllish version:

Similarly to the more direct combo approach I am wondering what makes this better than the same list with more Griselbrands instead of Worldgorger Dragon and Oona. Basically a controllish Reanimator list. Your plan would not change much, but you could afford to reanimate griselbrand even when there's the real risk of an opposing removal spell, simply to draw 7 cards and try again next turn while with Worldgorger Dragon you have to be really sure that the coast is clear.

Actaully hardcasting Oona can be a viable plan if the game goes long against BUG, but is that reason enough?

Often conventional Reanimator finds itself in positions where it can't convert a win despite getting Griselbrand in play and drawing a bunch of cards. Having a deterministic kill in your deck gives you a lot more room to maneuver in those situations.

[Searys]

Word of Command does not half the thing you think it does. Sure, in some situations, it can be amazing, but generally it is a bad card. Why do you think you never saw a copy in any other combo deck?
It does nothing against counterspells, clock or whatever and is often CD. Against DRS, DRS ability is not a mana ability, so you can't tap it for mana.


Oh yes it does these things, i think this card is not well known, even some referee have some trouble determining the possible actions. Nothing against clock? But we don't care about that, the goal of casting it is reducing the opponent mana to the closest possible to 0 most of the time, or to let him use only the land he doesn't need (oh you wanna use DRS? Too bad i use up all you G for casting one of your spells!)

Nothing against counterspells? I remind you, again you use it BEFORE the big turn and during your opponent turn, wich means basically, if he plays something (anything) you can in response cast WoC and counter it, unless he counter WoC himself (in fact having it countered is the worst possible option, and that's not that bad.) the result is the same, one less counter for him.

I test it actually and i honestly think this card is almost perfect for WGD, the closest possible to silence/orim's chant the turn before, without splash, but on top of it it allow you to see your opponent hand/sideboard, or to use STP/ Abrupt decay on one of his creatures/permanent (even better because we don't play that much creatures/permanent before we go, snapcaster, that's all) in the WORST case, we make him play something irrelevant using up his mana ressources, it seems really good to me.

I will test for myself, but imho this card is clearly underrated.

[Jander78]

Oh yes it does these things, i think this card is not well known, even some referee have some trouble determining the possible actions. Nothing against clock? But we don't care about that, the goal of casting it is reducing the opponent mana to the closest possible to 0 most of the time, or to let him use only the land he doesn't need (oh you wanna use DRS? Too bad i use up all you G for casting one of your spells!)

Nothing against counterspells? I remind you, again you use it BEFORE the big turn and during your opponent turn, wich means basically, if he plays something (anything) you can in response cast WoC and counter it, unless he counter WoC himself (in fact having it countered is the worst possible option, and that's not that bad.) the result is the same, one less counter for him.

I test it actually and i honestly think this card is almost perfect for WGD, the closest possible to silence/orim's chant the turn before, without splash, but on top of it it allow you to see your opponent hand/sideboard, or to use STP/ Abrupt decay on one of his creatures/permanent (even better because we don't play that much creatures/permanent before we go, snapcaster, that's all) in the WORST case, we make him play something irrelevant using up his mana ressources, it seems really good to me.

I will test for myself, but imho this card is clearly underrated.
I'm not sure you're fully interpreting the card correctly. You only get to cast 1 spell from the opponents hand and tap the mana to cast only that spell. If it's a counterspell or a couple of counterspells, it does nothing. If they have a bunch of one mana spells and 3 mana, you only get to use one mana and they still could use DRS. It's not like Mindslaver and generally doesn't get you much of an advantage at all. Are there situations where it's extremely powerful... sure, but most of the time it's not very effective disruption.

[MaximumC]

I'm not sure you're fully interpreting the card correctly. You only get to cast 1 spell from the opponents hand and tap the mana to cast only that spell. If it's a counterspell or a couple of counterspells, it does nothing. If they have a bunch of one mana spells and 3 mana, you only get to use one mana and they still could use DRS. It's not like Mindslaver and generally doesn't get you much of an advantage at all. Are there situations where it's extremely powerful... sure, but most of the time it's not very effective disruption.

What he's saying is that, pre-combo, you wait for them to cast a spell, then respond with WOC. This will allow you to pull at least one counterspell from their hand. It's no Duress, sure, but it has utility this way. Since your opponent is unlikely to do nothing at all until you try to combo, chances are you will get at least one chance to use WOC in this way before you try to combo out.

EDIT: Say it's Miracles. Turn 1, you lay a land and pass, they play top. Turn 2, you land and pass, they Brainstorm. You can respond with WOC. Now, if they have any countermagic in their hand, you can force them to point it at the Brainstorm. If they have a Force, this is particularly devastating since you can make them pitch something (you control them). So in this way you get to "value WOC."

Alternatively, against something like Delver, you can hit them during the beginning of their main phase. They have to tap out to counter it or let you tap them out to cast a dork, giving you a clear way.

It's not the best thing ever, no, but it certainly can be used to clear the way for a win.

[Jander78]

What he's saying is that, pre-combo, you wait for them to cast a spell, then respond with WOC. This will allow you to pull at least one counterspell from their hand. It's no Duress, sure, but it has utility this way. Since your opponent is unlikely to do nothing at all until you try to combo, chances are you will get at least one chance to use WOC in this way before you try to combo out.

EDIT: Say it's Miracles. Turn 1, you lay a land and pass, they play top. Turn 2, you land and pass, they Brainstorm. You can respond with WOC. Now, if they have any countermagic in their hand, you can force them to point it at the Brainstorm. If they have a Force, this is particularly devastating since you can make them pitch something (you control them). So in this way you get to "value WOC."

Alternatively, against something like Delver, you can hit them during the beginning of their main phase. They have to tap out to counter it or let you tap them out to cast a dork, giving you a clear way.

It's not the best thing ever, no, but it certainly can be used to clear the way for a win.
Those are still very narrow use cases compared to proactive disruption like Duress, Thoughtseize, and Cabal Therapy.

[Searys]

I perfectly get the card i'm on it since 2 days (with some help of referees :smile: ) i'm just saying, in most situations, when it's game 1, casted at the end of your opponent turn, it will create for you a perfect window to kill that's all (and i don't ask Woc more than that.)

It's this ability to tap lands + to potentially use a removal on his own hate/creatures + the potentiel use of it on discards + informations you gain from his hand/sideboard.

Versatility (don't know if it's the good word in english) is for a deck who fear nearly everything (all removals instants, discard, counterspells...) a really good solution.

I will see for myself, but for me the ++ of Woc is to potentially get the opponent with not enough mana to cast the most annoying spells, and seeing how much a manabase can impact a game, i'm pretty sure you can disable some spells just by paying with G with a tropical island instead of bayou.

But again, i'll see for myself, pretty easy, when i'll cast it i'll ask myself "would have it better with cabal/force/pierce/misdirection..."

[Jander78]

But again, i'll see for myself, pretty easy, when i'll cast it i'll ask myself "would have it better with cabal/force/pierce/misdirection..."
This pretty much sums it up. Don't get me wrong, Word of Command is one of my favorite cards. It's just not very effective and bombs out more than you would like. Fetchlands put this card in a very inopportune situation most of the time.

[Tammit67]

I'm not sure you're fully interpreting the card correctly. You only get to cast 1 spell from the opponents hand and tap the mana to cast only that spell. If it's a counterspell or a couple of counterspells, it does nothing.

You can't cast a counterspell targeting word of command? :eyebrow:

[Jander78]

You can't cast a counterspell targeting word of command? :eyebrow:
No, it's already resolved if you're looking at their hand.

[Searys]

In fact it's resolving when you're looking at the hand of your opponent, but you can cast Woc in resp to anything played by your opponent, wich force him to counter woc (using a counter then) if he doesn't, you just have to counter the first spell with his own counterspell (and note his hand sideboard :tongue: )

[Jander78]

In fact it's resolving when you're looking at the hand of your opponent, but you can cast Woc in resp to anything played by your opponent, wich force him to counter woc (using a counter then) if he doesn't, you just have to counter the first spell with his own counterspell (and note his hand sideboard :tongue: )
If your opponent has the mana available, not counting Fetchlands. Word of Command has been tried many times, in different decks, and because it can be very situational, it's not always a reliable disruption piece and often times dead in your hand.

[MaximumC]

If your opponent has the mana available, not counting Fetchlands. Word of Command has been tried many times, in different decks, and because it can be very situational, it's not always a reliable disruption piece and often times dead in your hand.

This deck is a little different; if you've got Taz going off, then it's a win con because you get to control your opponent forever. So thats... something.

[ShiftyKapree]

@ShiftyKapree: any reason why you don't have Entomb/Cabal Therapy/mill land? I personally would not cut 3 Worldgorger so Intuition never fails in case I draw WGD, saves the hassle of going for Careful Study in the pile, in cases where Counterbalance/Chalice is set at 1.

Therapy and Probe goes well together like eggs and bacon, strips away drs too.

I don't like the mill lands bc of SnT and the deck is now seeing an increase in play again bc of the banning of Treasure Cruise. I did cut thoughtsieze for Cabal Therapy now. I used git probe to see if I can combo off without worries of a counterspell to ruin my plan. The deck needs work but I feel we do need cunning wish maindecked as we can win turn two more consistently. Also with intuition in our hand allows us to win aswell being able to find Oona. As far as other wish targets my team and I are working on a list. I may go grixis to add faithless looting alone to help with discard and draw outlets for the deck, the flashback ability on faithless looting also helps us dig deeper and risking on getting more of a win chance by hitting Oona, Cunning Wish, or Intuition while in combo. Also drawing a brainstorm off of Faithless Loothing while digging for a win con helps too.

[Tammit67]

No, it's already resolved if you're looking at their hand.

Well, no it is resolving and still on the stack right? Similarly to how I can Misdirection a Force of Will to the misdirection during the resolution of Misdirection?

You don't put a spell into the graveyard until you've followed the directions of the card. Until then it is still on the stack


601.2a The player announces that he or she is casting the spell. That card (or that copy of a card) moves from where it is to the stack. It becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has all the characteristics of the card (or the copy of a card) associated with it, and that player becomes its controller. The spell remains on the stack until it's countered, it resolves, or an effect moves it elsewhere.


608.2k As the final part of an instant or sorcery spell's resolution, the spell is put into its owner's graveyard. As the final part of an ability's resolution, the ability is removed from the stack and ceases to exist.

And with Taz you don't get to control them forever. You'll eventually have to empty your mana pool of the infinite mana when you change steps, so you can't cast word of command then. It is certainly not a win condition

[Searys]

In fact you can't counter a spell when he started to resolve, i don't have the rules but i'm pretty sure it's not possible.

But the right comparison we can do is, WoC is much like Mana Short:

:2::u: : Tap all lands target player controls and empty his or her mana pool.

Fetchlands are the only exception. (wich can be problematic i admit)

[EunB]

Well, no it is resolving and still on the stack right? Similarly to how I can Misdirection a Force of Will to the misdirection during the resolution of Misdirection?

You don't put a spell into the graveyard until you've followed the directions of the card. Until then it is still on the stack



Sorry, but you're wrong. Misdirecting a cspell onto MD highlights why you're wrong because MD changes the target of the spell, finishes resolving, then the cspell fizzles due to its target disappearing.

With WoC the spell would have already finished resolving and be removed from the stack by the time you would want to declare any targets for the cspell you want your opponent to cast.

If you want to counter a spell you need to do so before it begins to resolve (see Cabal Therapy). As someone already mentioned, by the time you're looking at their hand the opponent has given up the chance to counter it.

[rufus]

In fact you can't counter a spell when he started to resolve, i don't have the rules but i'm pretty sure it's not possible.
...

You can't counter it, but you can target it with a counterspell. Similarly, you can use Misdirection to change the target of a counterspell to misdirection itself.

It seems like you can try to clip the opponent by hitting them with Word of Command during their Main 1 phase after they pass, but, even then, they can respond with instants.

I imagine it has the same sort of 1-of potential as Teferi's Response where your opponent is stuck considering the possibility even if you don't have it.

[Searys]

I didn't even realise that but, considering the gatherer:

"During the resolution of this spell (WOC), that player plays the chosen card."

That means it's possible to target Woc with a counterspell (woc is still in the stack during his resolution) oh man, that's even better than what i though at first! :eek:

And i want to play WoC EOT before the combo, it seems (not absolutely sure for the moment but it seems) you can force your opponent to play any sorcery speed spell even if it's normally not possible (Actually it was said by a lvl 2 referee so...) meaning you can play any irrelevant spell for taping their lands.

[snurly]

I didn't even realise that but, considering the gatherer:

"During the resolution of this spell (WOC), that player plays the chosen card."

That means it's possible to target Woc with a counterspell (woc is still in the stack during his resolution) oh man, that's even better than what i though at first! :eek:

And i want to play WoC EOT before the combo, it seems (not absolutely sure for the moment but it seems) you can force your opponent to play any sorcery speed spell even if it's normally not possible (Actually it was said by a lvl 2 referee so...) meaning you can play any irrelevant spell for taping their lands.

Also from Gatherer:
"Your opponent can't counter the Word of Command after letting you look at his or her hand, but they can attempt to counter the spell you force them to cast."

I believe this is simply because you cannot respond to individual actions during resolution of a spell. Looking at the hand and forcing the opponent to play a card are all part of resolution. Similar to Brainstorm, you can't draw 3, resolve another game action, then put 2 cards back.

Also I don't see how this card changes the timing rules to allow a sorcery to be cast outside of a main phase.


The only way to truly force a counterspell out of their hand is to cast anything, hold priority, and cast WoC, then point their counterspell at your original spell...

Don't get me wrong, I wish Word of Command was playable, simply for the fact that it has the worst art I've ever seen.

[Searys]

No your quotation means when the spell start to resolve they can't counter it (wich is logical) but you can clearly target the spell in the stack (woc) with a counterspell, the counter when you will resolve it will just be countered by the rules. For me this evidence is a clear application of the rules:

The gatherer say that the spell is played while woc is resolving.

A spell resolving is still in the stack.

A counterspell need a target to be cast, any spell in the stack can be a target unless this spell can't be countered.

So, you can target woc in the stack with a counterspell, it's a valid target.

What i mean is, there is a difference between "counter the spell" and "targeting the spell in attempt to counter it" for me, the target is legal, but you can't counter it.

For the bypass of the sorcery rule a lvl 2 referee told that:


In general yes. It will bypass the timing restrictions of spells, if it didn't the player could never cast the spell since normally you could not cast a spell during the resolution of another spell or ability, however it will not bypass other restrictions. For instance if a player has already played a land for turn then they will not be able to play another, or if word of command was not cast on that players turn the would not be able to play a land either since a player can never play a land when it's not their turn.

So yes you could force the player to cast a sorcery or enchantment during their draw step.

[ShiftyKapree]

Ok so for a wish board what should we play?
Wipe Away
Hurks Recall
Hibernation
E truth
Stroke of Genius
Extirpate
Surgical Extraction
Chain of Vapors

[snurly]

No your quotation means when the spell start to resolve they can't counter it (wich is logical) but you can clearly target the spell in the stack (woc) with a counterspell, the counter when you will resolve it will just be countered by the rules. For me this evidence is a clear application of the rules:

The gatherer say that the spell is played while woc is resolving.

A spell resolving is still in the stack.

A counterspell need a target to be cast, any spell in the stack can be a target unless this spell can't be countered.

So, you can target woc in the stack with a counterspell, it's a valid target.

What i mean is, there is a difference between "counter the spell" and "targeting the spell in attempt to counter it" for me, the target is legal, but you can't counter it.

For the bypass of the sorcery rule a lvl 2 referee told that:

Seems that you are indeed correct.

Probably need to do some more in depth comparisons and decision trees with this card and others that could fill that slot to know if it's better or not.

[rufus]

...
For the bypass of the sorcery rule a lvl 2 referee told that:

It obviously has to bypass the sorcery rule, but I'm not sure how it interacts with the restrictions on playing lands.

[Searys]

For the wish board (wich i'm against but, it's as everyone wish!) i would think about playing chain fo vapor, really the most polyvalent card (and can for U bounce your own snapcaster, wich is cool in a lot of situations :tongue: ) i'm playing it in my SB without cunning wish (i don't like it, intuition seems a lot better and i have no place for a 3 ccm spell who do nothing by itself, dangr of cool things but...)

For WoC, again, the more i test it, the more i want to keep it, the use of it before your big turn get you generally a win.

++ of the card:

It's an instant

It disable: counters/discard/removal (unless you don't have SCM into play and he doesn't have any creatures, very unlikely), like a discard spell instant.

It occasionnaly: Tap all the opponent lands for your big turn, Put the opponent in a situation who he doesn't have the mana he needs anymore for your big turn (G for a DRS for exemple)

It gives you: informations about the hand of your opponent (like a discard) the sideboard of your opponent (the real ++ of the card for me.) Allowing you to react/side perfectly for g2.

The not so anecdotic funny plays: killing somebody with a spell using lifepoints as alternative cost, fucking up a Show and tell, fucking up a hymn to tourach, in resp to a wasteland stifling his own waste effect (done that one time, rare but powerful), toying with surgical extraction...

The -- of the card:

Costs BB, i only play 3 of them for this reason.

In some situations, your opponent can greatly diminish the power of the card, if he has no card in hand, if he has a removal without any creatures/permanent into play (thinking of miracle for exemple) i did not run into this kind of situations a lot, but it can be a threat.

For the moment, i really like the card :cool:

[cdr]

Since I was asked, just to be clear, you can indeed target Word of Command with a counterspell that Word of Command chose. Spells don't leave the stack until they're completely resolved.

As the Gatherer tips note, you can make your opponent play a land only if they haven't played a land yet for the turn (or haven't used up extra land drops from effects, if any).

Searys, there's a reason your keyboard has a shift key.

[drude1]

Hi, new to thread. Carsten's article peaked my interest. I've tried his list online and it's pretty cool. Couple of issues though as I read through this thread. First, why play dig through time over intuition? I understand you get the extra card in hand but intuition just seems to enable the combo so much better. Also, I've had a lot of problems with tempo matchups as I get beat down before getting the combo off. Wouldn't vendilion clique be good, like over the duress? It acts like discard. It serves as a potential blocker. It pitches to force. And it enables you to find any card you need in your deck if you are looping its effect with Dragon Combo. Just seems like an auto-include in a Control version of this deck. Thanks for any input.


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[Searys]

Problems against tempo mu eh? Maybe some people forgot that playing 3 colors with specials lands is particularly bad against tempo.deck :frown:

That's why the deck MUST play only 2 colors imho, and that is why the deck must be able to go fast (wich the full control version is unable to do, unless you're lucky.)

Vendilion is good in a control shell, really good, it can be use as a half-tutor too (each time he came back you can draw/ put bottom a card)

[phazonmutant]

I played the same list in another local. Went 2-2, both losses to Delver with Stifle and Wasteland (RUG and UR). 3 of 4 games I lost, my manabase just didn't function despite mulligans for lands. I think my draws were on the low end, and a normal draw would have won, but still that matchup seems one of the more difficult ones. I think that I need to mulligan more aggressively - if my hand doesn't cast a cantrip or kill them after getting Wasted, I need to mulligan.

I won against Miracles and I believe Chris Anderson's Esper Thopter control http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=79338
Very interesting games against both. Miracles, I played the control game better than he could. Game 2 I won with Counterbalance on the stack, 9 lands in play to his 5, through Swords and Wear (with a Pyroblast in hand just in case :cool:). This deck has a seriously good lategame.
Against the thopter deck, he didn't interact game 1. Then game 2 was super interesting. I EE'd a Counterbalance and Strix with a Nihil Spellbomb in play, but he untapped and played Humility. My only outs were Snapcaster for a Wish in graveyard (somehow dodging Spellbomb), the other Wish, or beatdown. So I decided that I would win by beating down. Snapcaster traded with one of his, the turn before I would have died to Creeping Tar Pit I drew Wish and Bolted it, and then he had literally no ways to win left in the deck. He conceded to my fearsome board of a 1/1 Worldgorger Dragon.

So moving forward I want to try adjusting the manabase and bringing in the EEs maindeck. I think I can trim on the combo package and add more sweepers to the board. I feel that my lategame is unbeatable, especially since my opponents' decks are so diluted with combo hate, so I just have to make it to that point. I'm also interested in trying Tasigur over Oona. Seems like it supplements the control plan quite well.

[drude1]

I played this deck a lot online yesterday (very tedious clicking BTW) and found very similar results. Getting the mindset of switching to control mode is difficult but effective. I actually play with 2 v. Clique main and added 2 true-name nemesis board to go ultra-control and use the dragon combo as plan B sometimes. I don't understand the Tasigur plan though. How does he win on the spot like Oona does? You just flip your whole deck into the yard and eventually have your opponent give you all your cards and win with wish? I certainly could NOT do that online but just curious if that's the plan.


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[Baum]

Regarding Carsten’s List, has anybody considered cutting the Lightning Bolts and use just a light red splash for Loothouse? I didn’t have the opportunity to test the deck so far, but while goldfishing, the manabase looked really weak to Wasteland/Stifle (as Phazonmutant already pointed out) so basically staying U/B might help.
We could use either Disfigure for the early game or Baleful Strix and Explosives to get max value. Strix can even act as a combo part to draw our deck while looping the Dragon, if we have a way to kill it before we deck ourselves.

[Atari]

has anybody tried Contagion?

[death]

Darkblast seems like a good fit. It can hit DRS twice assuming your first attempt gets countered, if timed perfectly when shaman is 1) sick or 2) tapped for mana. If can take care of Mom and her friends, copies of Delver, Young Pyromancer and 1/1 tokens.

The card also turns Brainstorms into Careful Studies, you can search for it through Intuition and dredge it back if necessary.

Point is, if Darkblast is as good as Bolt or better then we can avoid a third splash and run a more stable mana base.

[Searys]

Another alternative is Vision charm, it deals with tormod/relic, can cut the G for ooze/DRS or be used to dump a creature in the grave. (more like a side tech but smartly used i think it can be good.)

[Redkid43]

I did a little digging for Word of Command rulings. If you use Taz, the line "you control that player while WoC finishes resolving" doesn't let you dump your mana into Taz and essentially make the decisions for it under WoC. The current oracle wording ensures that the targeted player doesn't gain priority during the time you "control" them. You basically make all the decisions for said spell--the only thing you can control is how the spell resolves and what lands/mana is used to cast it. So you can't, say, kill your opponent by activating their Griselbrand for 21 life you can with Mindslaver. You can however Mana Short them to cast their Show and Tell during their draw step for a land, all while peeking at their hand.

It's certainly an odd option for discard and protection, as it basically hobbles them for a turn. I can't really imagine a situation where it would be handy, as stuff like Duress and Therapy do 75% of the same thing, without all the messy oracle text and judge headaches. I've seen WoC used like 1 time with stuff like Chains of Meph and Anvil of Bogarden to turn Brainstorm into Mind Twist, but that's a whole other can of wurms.

It certainly had it's merrits. When used correctly, it's a black Time Walk that can potentially get them pretty good. But I think the variance on it is too high. Say you WoC a Lands player--now what? Don't they want to cast their spells to get then in the graveyard? Or you see a hand full of lands?

TL,DR-WoC is weird, but maybe worth it?

As for Tasigur, I think he's good but I feel like Oona may just be a cleaner kill? Someone want to enlighten me as to why him over her? I'm open for new ideas.

[death]

WoC doesn't solve issues involving StP, Stifle, Abrupt Decay/Golgari Charm without valid targets. I think Vision Charm is quite good, it's like Abeyance/Contamination for :u:. You shut off Swords turning Plains into Swamp, multiple Abrupt Decay/DRS/Ooze by turning Forest into Plains, then Massacre becomes a free Toxic Deluge killing spree. You can also turn off Stifle during your combo turn.

[Searys]

WoC can shut down any responses if the other play have something to play, anything that drain his mana, and it's quite rare not having any target, unless he's playing miracle.

[Redkid43]

"Swords your guy."
"Response, Word of Command." (Durdle)
"Okay. Swords still resolves"
Unless they have a counter that you can steal, swords still happens.

"Word of Command?"
"Response, Swords your Dragon."
Swords resolves first, then Word. Awk.

/discussion.


The only way I can see this happen is the fact that Word is so hipster the other player doesn't know how to respond to it.

[Searys]

Eeeeh you would be dumb enough not to play WoC BEFORE you go? :confused:

It's not a spell meant to be played "in resp" it's like a discard instant! (and basically the best moment to use it is EOT before your big turn)

Ex: Opponent as 3 lands open, you play it EOT and depending what he can do you can:

If he has a stp, play something cutting his W sources.

If he has a counter, "discarding" it.

If he has DRS, playing something to cut of G sources (or trgetting it with one of his anti-creature)

If he has Abrupt decay, reducing his lands to 1 only, or cutting G/B sources.

If he has antigrave spells, you can just exile a random card in a grave.

BTW bonus you can see his hand AND his sideboard, it's not to be neglected imho.

[Redkid43]

>Play Dragon
>Fuck entomb plus protection for set up.
>Use WoC
>IDGAF.jpg


That's assuming there are legal targets for all of those.

I can understand the removal spell situations. Then yes you are correct.

Wouldn't just straight discard be better anyways? Convince me I'm open to anything.

Also, is BB to egregious for the deck?

[Searys]

Clearly BB is the big problem of the card, but i'm running 2 urborg (because of the lands who produce :1: , so...) the fact is discard is good, but Woc can get rid of DRS/ooze and on other hand, knowing your opponent sideboard is really awesome.

Another thing is, you can play it the turn before, wich can "save" mana to go (eot T2) you can play entomb/reanimation spell on the T3

You can compare it to vision charm, a really polyvalent card.

But definately, the deck lack something, i would love an instant for 1 (B or U) to return a permanent ccm 2 or less into play, i searched for it but doesn't exist, too bad!

[Redkid43]

That's smart. (Golf clap)

Draw step Word you could be awesome.

[Searys]

Yeah an unearth instant for enchants/permanents would be so awesome :eek: ... Maybe they will create this sort of card one day (they did create abrupt decay so, why not!...)

But for the moment, i'm thinking about running some vision charm MD too, i already adopted Woc in 2/3 main deck, i will test vision charm.

Basically, WoC during draw step can end in a time walk if he has the righ spells in hand.

[jvmauck]

Split first in a small Legacy tournament with this list. Never lost or drew a single game, outside of ID'ing into 1st/2nd.

4 Griselbrand
1 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae

2 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Careful Study
4 Entomb
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Animate Dead
4 Reanimate
4 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacomb
2 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard
1 Scholar of Athreos
1 Empyrial Archangel
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
2 Pithing Needle
1 Massacre
2 Show and Tell
3 Dark Ritual


Round 1: Burn - Won (0-0)
Both games reanimated Iona and won the game. Pretty straight forward.

Round 2: Pod-Fit (Nic-Fit) - Won (1-0)
Game one, I kept a fairly sketchy hand, but I already mulliganed down to five. I kept a hand of griselbrand, Oona, petal, careful study, animate dead. Petal -> Careful study, didn't find a land. Luckily, my opponent was a little slower and within two turns I animated dead -> Griselbrand. Used Griselbrand to draw cards to get dragon + Animate Dead and combo off.
Game two, I turn two reanimated Iona name green. LUCKILY I chose reanimate and not animate dead because he was armed to the teeth with ways to deal with animate dead. Lesson learned = Reanimate is still the best, but animate dead will do in a pinch.

Round 3: Dredge - Won (2-0)
Game one, I was able to turn two WGD combo. Game two, my opponent slammed down Leyline of the Void, but within two turns, I drew my Chain of Vapor that I had boarded in and bounced it to combo off with WGD combo again.

Round 4: I ID'ed into 1st/2nd place. (3-0-1)

The deck felt extremely tight and I was extremely happy with the addition of Worldgorger Dragon Combo in the deck. It adds an "I win NOW" combo without diluting your deck down with less than stellar cards. The only changes I might make is -3 Dark Ritual, +2 Chain of vapor +1 Wipe Away in the SB.

[lordofthepit]

Against the thopter deck, he didn't interact game 1. Then game 2 was super interesting. I EE'd a Counterbalance and Strix with a Nihil Spellbomb in play, but he untapped and played Humility. My only outs were Snapcaster for a Wish in graveyard (somehow dodging Spellbomb), the other Wish, or beatdown. So I decided that I would win by beating down. Snapcaster traded with one of his, the turn before I would have died to Creeping Tar Pit I drew Wish and Bolted it, and then he had literally no ways to win left in the deck. He conceded to my fearsome board of a 1/1 Worldgorger Dragon.

Unless I'm missing something, Snapcaster wouldn't really be an out with Humility in play. Unless you're referring to doubling the clock you had with the 1/1 Worldgorger.

[Mastikor]

Yesterday I played a funny Dragon deck with a Storm transformational sideboard (inspired by nedleeds in the pimp thread) in a small local tourney. I finished 3rd with a decent 4-1-1 score. The deck was super fun to play and worked surprisingly well. I can share the list and details here if anyone is interested, or just PM me.

[jvmauck]

Yesterday I played a funny Dragon deck with a Storm transformational sideboard (inspired by nedleeds in the pimp thread) in a small local tourney. I finished 3rd with a decent 4-1-1 score. The deck was super fun to play and worked surprisingly well. I can share the list and details here if anyone is interested, or just PM me.

I would be moderately interested in seeing this list in the thread.

[phazonmutant]

I played the list I was describing in my earlier post to a pretty miserable 2-3 drop at a larger tournament last Saturday. I certainly made some mistakes that cost me games, but the strategy as a whole just didn't feel especially powerful and actually felt a lot like why I gave up on Golddigger. To illustrate what I mean, I'd describe both Miracles and ANT as objectively powerful and difficult to play. Miracles has the tools to regain control from basically any board state at low mana cost, then win quickly. It can also play a powerful haymaker (Counterbalance, Jace) that puts the opponent on the back foot. It's hard to play because the deck has some clunky parts that require sequencing over several turns, but mistakes are recoverable because of the aforementioned control tools. ANT has the ability to play a more controlling or more aggressive role depending on the draw and matchup, and the variety of lines gives it resiliency. It puts the onus on the opponent to play correctly from mulligans on or they're just dead. Mistakes are punishing, but there is plenty of opponent hand information to make decisions easier.

In contrast, this control-combo deck's control plan is mediocre and so is the combo plan. The control cards are meant to buy time until the combo can happen with protection, but the manabase is too fragile and the answers too expensive to actually do that against moderate disruption. Similarly, the combo plan is not fast or redundant enough to win through hate, so the control plan must work to buy time. Basically just like Golddigger, you're constantly on the back foot and struggling to survive. Although there are some free wins, for the most part peoples' disruption for our haymakers is cheaper and more potent. For example, in round 1 UWR beat down with Pyromancer while holding up Pierce and Swords. A timely Wasteland prevented me from playing and popping EE in the same turn, giving him a turn to bring me to double-bolt range. Paying 4 mana for a partial wrath isn't good enough, and the combo couldn't come together well enough to make the creatures irrelevant. I was staring at a couple of Animate Deads with no creature in my graveyard and not enough time to cast my cantrips to find them.

If my bitching about the deck hasn't driven you away, here's my decklist and a quick report:
3 Animate Dead
2 Necromancy
1 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Griselbrand
2 Entomb
2 Cunning Wish
3 Dig Through Time
2 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
3 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Academy Ruins

// Sideboard
2 Entomb
1 Animate Dead
1 Electrickery
1 Pyroclasm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Misdirection
1 Echoing Truth
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Dig Through Time
1 Blue Sun's Zenith

I have to go now, I'll edit this post to include the round-by-round later.

[Allcoin]

I played the list I was describing in my earlier post to a pretty miserable 2-3 drop at a larger tournament last Saturday. I certainly made some mistakes that cost me games, but the strategy as a whole just didn't feel especially powerful and actually felt a lot like why I gave up on Golddigger. To illustrate what I mean, I'd describe both Miracles and ANT as objectively powerful and difficult to play. Miracles has the tools to regain control from basically any board state at low mana cost, then win quickly. It can also play a powerful haymaker (Counterbalance, Jace) that puts the opponent on the back foot. It's hard to play because the deck has some clunky parts that require sequencing over several turns, but mistakes are recoverable because of the aforementioned control tools. ANT has the ability to play a more controlling or more aggressive role depending on the draw and matchup, and the variety of lines gives it resiliency. It puts the onus on the opponent to play correctly from mulligans on or they're just dead. Mistakes are punishing, but there is plenty of opponent hand information to make decisions easier.

In contrast, this control-combo deck's control plan is mediocre and so is the combo plan. The control cards are meant to buy time until the combo can happen with protection, but the manabase is too fragile and the answers too expensive to actually do that against moderate disruption. Similarly, the combo plan is not fast or redundant enough to win through hate, so the control plan must work to buy time. Basically just like Golddigger, you're constantly on the back foot and struggling to survive. Although there are some free wins, for the most part peoples' disruption for our haymakers is cheaper and more potent. For example, in round 1 UWR beat down with Pyromancer while holding up Pierce and Swords. A timely Wasteland prevented me from playing and popping EE in the same turn, giving him a turn to bring me to double-bolt range. Paying 4 mana for a partial wrath isn't good enough, and the combo couldn't come together well enough to make the creatures irrelevant. I was staring at a couple of Animate Deads with no creature in my graveyard and not enough time to cast my cantrips to find them.

If my bitching about the deck hasn't driven you away, here's my decklist and a quick report:
3 Animate Dead
2 Necromancy
1 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Griselbrand
2 Entomb
2 Cunning Wish
3 Dig Through Time
2 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
3 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Academy Ruins

// Sideboard
2 Entomb
1 Animate Dead
1 Electrickery
1 Pyroclasm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Misdirection
1 Echoing Truth
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Dig Through Time
1 Blue Sun's Zenith

I have to go now, I'll edit this post to include the round-by-round later.

I was your round 1 opponent actually, that EE just couldn't quite get there, and I think it was a force and swords in hand.

[ESG]

Unless I'm missing something, Snapcaster wouldn't really be an out with Humility in play. Unless you're referring to doubling the clock you had with the 1/1 Worldgorger.

Maybe he means flashing in Snapcaster with Humility on the stack?

[death]

Maindeck:
4 Griselbrand
2 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize

4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
2 Ponder
4 Entomb
3 Intuition
4 Animate Dead
2 Dance of the Dead
1 Necromancy

4 Lotus Petal

4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Duskmantle, House of Shadow

Sideboard:
2 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Echoing Truth
1 Massacre
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Here is where I am and the sideboard that I recommend. Vision Charm looks good in paper but against BUG with discard effects + Wasteland, churning out 1UBB to pull off a 4-card combo is quite daunting. It is also narrow compared to Chain of Vapor, however Chain of Vapor doesn't work on Priest with Mom out and multiple hate cards. Ratchet Bomb can eat an Abrupt Decay before going active so that leads us back to EE and Echoing Truth. Avacyn is there mainly for decks playing Abrupt Decay/Golgari Charm/Krosan Grip: BG(x), Jund, Elves, and ANT. Iona is also there to cut off white/black removal and mono-colored. All the best.

[death]

Made a couple of runs on Cockatrice without the Dragon and all I can say is, that resulted to a string of losses. After tweaking my strategy, ran a few more games this time never left without 1 Dragon. Show and Tell was mediocre, a singleton Necromancy (replacing 1 DoD) was impressive. Won straight 4 rounds.

BUG delver: 2-0
Miracles: 2-0
12-post: 2-0
Goblins: 2-0

With minor tuning, I can see this deck replacing Reanimator because of its ability to combo off with reanimation spells, less reliance on life totals and on Entomb (unlike TinFins).

Re: Force of Will. It is still the nuts, stops their hate while on the draw or if they top deck. I didn't bring in additional discard in any of the games.

Re: Careful Study. I usually cut 1 for a sideboard card. I don't feel comfortable going any lower than that.

Re: Intuition. It's possible to cut 1, this assembles half of the combo oftentimes. I'm happy when I see it.

[Atari]

I have the cards to build this deck except Iona, Avacyn 1.0, 2x Show and Tell but they don't come cheap.

[Darklingske]

I must be missing something, but I can't seem to find how you kill on T2. Can anyone explain it?

[Weapon X]

Turn 1: underground, entomb dragon
Turn 2: "mill land" animate dead dragon. Make infinite mana, mill opponent or mill self ->oona win.

[Mastikor]

Or turn 1 if you run acceleration (Ritual, Petal). Like, Sea->Ritual->Entomb (WGD) + Animate/Dance->million U/B mana->break the look with another Entomb/Intuition/Wish for the win.

[Darklingske]

Turn 1: underground, entomb dragon
Turn 2: "mill land" animate dead dragon. Make infinite mana, mill opponent or mill self ->oona win.

Okay, forgot the mill-land. I'm stupid! :)

[drude1]

You don't need the mill land either if you have cunning wish, intuition, or can find pieces with dig through time , etc. I've been running a list closer to Carsten's with Tasigur instead of Oona and a couple v.clique main and it has been performing quite well. The best thing about this version is that it has several lines of play and if they have all kinds of grave hate I can just switch to control mode and beat down with Tasigur, clique and snapcaster. I actually added another Tasigur to the board just to lean on that strategy more when I have to. I've even taken the dragon combo out in games where I knew they were heavy on hate. Also remember that you can strip or kill opponent's creatures and reanimate them with your reanimation spells. Finally I will say the instant speed of necromancy is the nut and I would play at least 3.
This deck is not easy to play well but there is no one card or strategy it just folds to, making it much more resilient than either reanimator or ANT. Last night I won against ANT after they had discard on turn one and two and tried to go off turn 3. I drew dig and hit force plus blue card. I also won a game against MUD through a chalice of the void on 1 and 2 (although my secret tech right now is 2 Crosis charm in the S.B.). Ended up undefeated on the night, losing only one game to MUD, Don't give up on this deck yet.
Also, Tasigur is the real deal. A 4/5 for 1 is some good and I would get my play set now.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mtg13579]

Hi everyone,

First time poster, and new to Legacy. I've been reading through this thread and I thought I should finally post. :laugh: I decided to jump in with the Worldgorger Dragon Reanimator deck. I've put my deck together and wondering if anyone has any tips for the 75?

WGD Reanimator
2x Worldgorger Dragon
2x Scholar of Athreos

4x Buried Alive
2x Cunning Wish
4x Dark Ritual
4x Entomb
4x Pact of Negation
2x Ponder
4x Swan Song
4x Thoughtseize (may -2 for +2 Duress?)

4x Animate Dead
4x Dance of the Dead
2x Necromancy

4x Underground Sea
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
3x Piranha Marsh
1x Duskmantle, House of Shadow
1x Island
1x Swamp

Sideboard
4x Chain of Vapor
1x Dig Through Time
1x Echoing Truth
1x Intuition
1x Pithing Needle
4x Stifle
1x ?
2x Surgical Extraction


Should I be running Lotus Petal, or Intuition main deck? Or any other thoughts?

Thanks everyone!

EDIT: Apparently I don't know how to link cards, so any help on that would be appreciated :)

Thank you Jander78 for fixing this… :)

[Namida]

Thoughtseize is better than Duress not only since it hits Containment Priest and other creature hate, but also can put an in-hand Dragon into your graveyard.

Pithing Needle doesn't seem very good here since you exile your permanents with the Dragon Loop. If Pithing Needle is on Deathrite Shaman or Top or anything, your opponent has an opportunity to use it while your permanents are gone.

I'm also not entirely sure about how Chain of Vapor works with Animate Dead effects. If you cast Animate Dead, and with it's ETB ability on the stack your opponent puts in a Containment Priest or something you have to Chain, and when you Chain they copy it and bounce Animate Dead, what happens? In any case, Chain also seems to be an issue because you might want to Animate your opponent's cards and Chain lets them return their own cards back to their hand.

[mtg13579]

Namida,

Thank you very much for the reply.

I do see now how Thoughtseize is the better choice all around. Regarding Pithing Needle, is there anything else that is a consideration for handling Deathrite Shaman?

Also, the reason I was considering Chain of Vapor was to use it the turn before trying to combo out (so no Animate Dead would be on table yet) in case Chalice of the Void, or something like Containment Priest was in play. Is there a better 1 drop (U or B) to consider that can return/remove a permanent from play that I might be missing? I do see the major downside of this card though so I'm not so sure now.

Thank you!

[drude1]

Is there a reason you aren't playing brainstorm? Seems like an obvious inclusion for any combo deck that runs blue.
You also don't have a way to dare cards once you combo off. As far as I can tell you have to have two copies of entomb or buried alive for all of your creature combo pieces ahead of time with the buried alive. This just seems more fragile than most of the lists using snapcaster and the lighthouse.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mtg13579]

Hi drude1, thanks for the reply. About brainstorm, I probably just don't know better. Also, what do you mean by dare cards once I combo off?

I think I see what your saying about Buried Alive...is that due to it being a sorcery and not an instant? Since I can't use it during the combo? Is it better to have Intuition main instead?

I'll have to figure out what to cut to fit in Brainstorm...is that a 2-of or 4-of typically? I'll have to take a look at some lists and see. Thanks again for the response! :)

[mtg13579]

Hi guys,

I've updated my list:

WGD Reanimator
2x Worldgorger Dragon
2x Scholar of Athreos

4x Brainstorm
4x Buried Alive
4x Careful Study
4x Dark Ritual
4x Entomb
4x Intuition
4x Pact of Negation
4x Thoughtseize

3x Animate Dead
3x Dance of the Dead
2x Necromancy

4x Underground Sea
2x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
2x Piranha Marsh
2x Duskmantle, House of Shadow
1x Island
1x Swamp

Sideboard (?)
Chain of Vapor
Dig Through Time
Echoing Truth
Pithing Needle
Stifle
Surgical Extraction

I'd be curious your thoughts on my main deck. I feel much happier with it right now! Not sure about the sideboard, but can deal with that later once I've settled in on the main. My question is, how do you deal Abrupt Decay... seems to be a show stopper.

[siqatzi]

Hi drude1, thanks for the reply. About brainstorm, I probably just don't know better. Also, what do you mean by dare cards once I combo off?

I think it was a typo for 'draw cards' ;). You probably want something that allows you to draw a way to actually kill when you combo, either by tutoring at instant speed or allowing you to draw your deck. The obvious options are Cunning Wish/Intuition (tutor for a kill at instant speed), Baleful Strix (if you have one the battlefield when you combo, it draws you your deck as it flickers), Tasigur (with infinite mana it can put all non-land cards from your deck into your hand) and Desolate Lighthouse (loot through your whole deck as it flickers with the combo).


I think I see what your saying about Buried Alive...is that due to it being a sorcery and not an instant? Since I can't use it during the combo? Is it better to have Intuition main instead?

I'll have to figure out what to cut to fit in Brainstorm...is that a 2-of or 4-of typically? I'll have to take a look at some lists and see. Thanks again for the response! :)

It is indeed normally played as a four-of.

[Emrakul503]

How is this deck poat DTT ban? I am considering putting it together.

[TheG]

Hi everyone, i'm a beginner with this deck. I like the deck 'cose playing x8/x12 of each combo piece seems insane, but it is stilo fragile when paried with ubg decks with mainboard gy distruption, removals and counters.

This is my current deck

2 w dragon
1 scholar
1 snapcaster
4 animate dead
4 dance of the dead
4 entomb
4 buried alive
4 intuition
---------------- 24
4 force of will
4 unmask
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 preordain
----------------- 18
4 underground sea
4 polluted delta
4 ancient tomb
2 swamp
2 island
2 duskmantle

I forego to run dark riuals in place of tombs to better fuel intuitions and b.alive but i can fit back in if i need more speed. But the department that i feel lacking is the protection one. Despite the narcisism of playing 8 0mana protection (unmask are for decays, mostly) i cant manage multiple theats or a resolved hate piece... Can you help me with some advice?

Edit: how does che tasigur wincon work?.. You draw the deck and?

[Atari]

Tasigur (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Tasigur,%20the%20Golden%20Fang) mills your deck and bounces non-lands from your graveyard to hand. You can play Bolt, opponent bounces it back with every Tasigur activation. Repeat.

[Fox]

I don't think there is much reason to run a white critter (scholar of athreos). Seems like this deck is much better off with Kalastria Healer. It doesn't pass the bolt test, but you also don't have to reanimate it.

[death]

Kalastria Healer

The combo doesn't work that way. And we're not casting a reanimation spell on a second target, we switch in order to stop the loop.

@TheG I never tested the deck with both Intuition and Buried Alive, seems clunky. But let us know how that's working for you.

[DoorDie]

Well your mana is kind of there with 4x Ancient Tomb, but you need more accelerants for 8x 3-drops. Either that or add more Worldgorgers and split some of the 3-drops with Careful Study/Hapless Researcher.

I hate to say it, but 1x Griselbrand is a stellar plan B.

Also, the bolt test is a Modern thing, where Lightning Bolt is way more prevalent.

[TheG]

@TheG I never tested the deck with both Intuition and Buried Alive, seems clunky. But let us know how that's working for you.

I feel its very consistent to assemble a 3card combo, and resilent to discard, despite the low number of permissione spells.

@doordie: ad a last minute thinking, i was guessing to make those changes

+2 city of tr./ -2 duskmantle, +2 cunning w. / -2 preordain

And maybe -4 unmask/+4 thoughtseize

Cunning w give more answers and its a possible 3rd card for the combo. And the 10 cmc3 cards could be reasonally supported by 6 double mana lands

[Emrakul503]

Is anyone playing a Grixis version of this list?

[Weapon X]

I played strictly UB. It makes our "3 card combo" into a "2 card combo" as our mana base easily becomes a combo piece. I also like that it makes it easy to shift the combo a little bit towards instants where you can win in response to something.

It does have me curious as to why intuition, necromancy, and read the runes don't seem to be as common as I would expect.

[DoorDie]

Agree with Weapon X, particularly on Necromancy, which allows you to go off at instant speed (e.g. kill with a Deathrite Shaman activation on the stack).



I forego to run dark riuals in place of tombs to better fuel intuitions and b.alive but i can fit back in if i need more speed. But the department that i feel lacking is the protection one. Despite the narcisism of playing 8 0mana protection (unmask are for decays, mostly) i cant manage multiple theats or a resolved hate piece... Can you help me with some advice?


I missed this question earlier. You've got plenty of disruption, and switching Unmask to Thoughtseize is a good move.

Protection isn't your problem. No deck does it all; hell, we're privileged (Reanimator, TinFins, Worldgorger) to have access to such potent disruption. Maybe post your sideboard, a proper plan can alleviate (not eliminate) the hate.

[Fox]

The combo doesn't work that way. And we're not casting a reanimation spell on a second target, we switch in order to stop the loop.

@TheG I never tested the deck with both Intuition and Buried Alive, seems clunky. But let us know how that's working for you.

Cant you just recur a resolved Kalastria Healer as the infinite loop begins as the wincon, without need to use the excess mana? Seems like the wincon can be diversified with speed gained.

[DoorDie]

Cant you just recur a resolved Kalastria Healer as the infinite loop begins as the wincon, without need to use the excess mana? Seems like the wincon can be diversified with speed gained.

If you're planning on casting it, then you need more than 1 copy. The point of Scholar is you already have 8x tutors in the deck to find it, 4 of which do double duty by hitting the Dragon in the same spell.

I'm not sure where the speed gain would come from with the healer, as you're adding 1B to the combo which will likely eat up a turn cycle. Scholar gets reanimated using the Animate Dead which was already cast after enough mana has been generated by Worldgorger, sort of a clean gymnastic finish.

Personally I ran Grixis and the Shivan Hellkite, who does some real work on his own as a reanimation target.

[death]

With Healer or creatures with CIP abilities like it, we would need to devote resources getting the creature into play and protect it before the actual combo process because post-combo it does nothing i.e. once we use Healer to stop the loop after making a zillion mana. This in effect translates to wasted turns.

With Oona or creatures like it, we only need to worry about assembling Animate Dead + Worldgorger Dragon. Creatures like Oona don't need to be in play pre-combo. Assuming we used Intuition/Buried Alive to get 2 WGD + Oona, then to finish it off we simply switch (change Animate Dead target) to Oona for the kill. See "How Stuff Works" in the primer.

Intuition acts as both enabler and finisher that is why cards like Cunning Wish/Read the Runes that were previously in Vintage Worldgorger are no longer necessary. The addition of newly printed "mill lands," naturally drawn copies of Entomb (for Oona) and Snapcaster Mage (recursing Entomb) all work incidentally as finishers here as well once we go infinite. So really, efficiency is the theme of this deck.

[death]

@TheG
You need 2 Griselbrand in the deck so you can go off of a single Intuition (2 WGD + SCM). SCM flashback Intuition > Scholar + 2 non-Dragon creatures (to break the loop). Otherwise you can be stuck without a mill land in play and if there isn't any creature in an opponent's yard to target with Animate Dead.


My question is, how do you deal with Abrupt Decay... seems to be a show stopper.

A well-timed Thoughtseize. Cabal Therapy from the sb. Griselbrand helps soak up a lot of hate too. Since Dragon requires a 3rd card which might not be available at the time you can Entomb + reanimate, Griselbrand is a nice option when you can draw 7, find those pieces and do it all again, or find silver bullets or countermagic and win, while being an excellent blocker.

[Emrakul503]

If you're planning on casting it, then you need more than 1 copy. The point of Scholar is you already have 8x tutors in the deck to find it, 4 of which do double duty by hitting the Dragon in the same spell.

I'm not sure where the speed gain would come from with the healer, as you're adding 1B to the combo which will likely eat up a turn cycle. Scholar gets reanimated using the Animate Dead which was already cast after enough mana has been generated by Worldgorger, sort of a clean gymnastic finish.

Personally I ran Grixis and the Shivan Hellkite, who does some real work on his own as a reanimation target.

Would you mind posting a list? The Grixis manabase may be more vulnerable, but I like the red splash!

[DoorDie]

Would you mind posting a list? The Grixis manabase may be more vulnerable, but I like the red splash!

Sure, I actually had some Reanimator/Dragon hybrid abomination where the Dragon was relevant in 1/100 games. Here's a list more dedicated to the combo, maybe it will give some inspiration.

Some random thoughts on Grixis and the choices here:

Izzet Charm is really flexible and a great metagame response to Containment Priest
Lim-Dul's Vault works with the combo by 'fetching' the last piece, also need Brainstorm/Izzet Charm though
As a standalone fattie, Shivan Hellkite dodges Karakas and is great against Elves/Infect

4 Entomb
2 Buried Alive
4 Animate Dead
4 Dance of the Dead
2 Necromancy

4 Thoughtseize
4 Izzet Charm
2 Lim-Dul's Vault

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

2 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Shivan Hellkite
1 Griselbrand

4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn


I'm thinking of running this list now, the Dragon combo just feels too fun. :D

[death]

2 Worldgorger Dragon
3 Griselbrand
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize

4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
2 Ponder
4 Entomb
4 Intuition
4 Animate Dead
3 Necromancy

4 Dark Ritual

4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
2 Nephalia Drownyard

Sideboard:
2 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Echoing Truth
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Massacre
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

I did some tweaking to the UB list. I have a little more faith in this going forward.

[TheG]

Just a random thought to talk about with you.

Why running Griselbrand? there are other decks that optimize him better (tin fins and standard reanimator), yes it's a draw 7-14 for 1entomb+1animate dead...but i think that's like splashing the standard reanimator for a subpar gameplan
Why seeking for speed? dark ritual - entomb - animate dead is a great play but for the dragon kill it needs at least a 3rd card, instead is good for griselbrand. our combo is vulenrable to removals, counters and gy hate, isn't better to aim to a more control/combo approach, being prepared to face or prevent also a double threat (bug)? in this case we would be one of the few decks that can run 8copies of both the two pieces of the combo ( intuition/buried alive + animate dead/dance of the dead/necromancy), splitting the uneasy cost in 2 turns but controlling the opponent along the way.

[mistercakes]

i think you're underestimating the turn 1 griselbrand. anyway, death i like the list. i would consider squeezing in a lim-dul's vault.

[death]

Thanks for the feedback.


Why running Griselbrand?

Our combo is vulnerable to removals and gy hate, isn't it better to aim to a more control/combo approach

That is the point of G-daddy. You run him out first and let him eat removal (when you don't have perfect information). If their hand is blank then the 7/7 flyer will take the cake. I've done it many times after I lost my mill land to Wasteland. Same with Iona.

As for building the deck towards combo-control (red splash), I think once you let games drag on you put yourself at risk of being overrun by spot removal and hate cards like DRS (hence Necromancy) or Counterbalance (hence Nephalia Drownyard) going online.

Also, getting steamrolled by mediocre combo decks while holding onto Lightning Bolts I imagine isn't fun. Speed is never irrelevant. Since Buried Alive is telegraphic and can be dead in multiples (with Intuition) I haven't tried running 8x copies. #doesntpitchtoforce

[Weapon X]

This was the list I was using before, not sure what to do for changes now

2 necromancy
3 dance of the dead
4 animate dead

1 oona, Queen of the fae
3 worldgorger dragon
1 vendillion clique
1 snapcaster Mage

1 dig through time
2 cunning wish
4 entomb
4 careful study
3 read the runes
2 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
3 pact of negation

4 polluted delta
4 underground sea
4 gemstone mine
1 swamp
1 island
2 duskmantle, house of shadow
3 nephalia drownyard

Sideboard
4 pack rat
4 voids snare
1 intuition
1 slaughter pact
1 pact of negation
1 read the runes
1 echoing truth


I found the strength of the deck over the years/variations I played it was that it is aggressive. Because of the redundancy of pieces I find it better to ask questions and see if the opponent has the answer. It makes for a single choke point making the counterspell option more attractive then thougthseize.

[death]

Vendilion Clique would pair well with discard, specifically Cabal Therapy to clear the path.

[Weapon X]

I like it as a castable creature and a way to filter my hand while in the loop.

[mtg13579]

@TheG
You need 2 Griselbrand in the deck so you can go off of a single Intuition (2 WGD + SCM). SCM flashback Intuition > Scholar + 2 non-Dragon creatures (to break the loop). Otherwise you can be stuck without a mill land in play and if there isn't any creature in an opponent's yard to target with Animate Dead.



A well-timed Thoughtseize. Cabal Therapy from the sb. Griselbrand helps soak up a lot of hate too. Since Dragon requires a 3rd card which might not be available at the time you can Entomb + reanimate, Griselbrand is a nice option when you can draw 7, find those pieces and do it all again, or find silver bullets or countermagic and win, while being an excellent blocker.

death - thanks for the suggestions on this. I've recently just put a 1x Griselbrand in. I'm also going to try 4x Force of Will and 4x Swan Song (in place of the 4x Thoughtseize). I'm thinking I'll try this route as it also gives me 4 additional I can pitch to Force of Will as well... Not sure how it will work, as I'm still new to Legacy. Thanks!

[LMental]

I want to give this a spin:

4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae

4 Entomb
3 Intuition
4 Animate Dead
2 Necromancy

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe

4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Lotus Petal

4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Nephalia Drownyard


Intuition + Animate Dead / Necromancy is a 2 card combo: you Intuition for 2 Worldgorger Dragon and a Snapcaster Mage. If they put Mage and Dragon in the yard, you cast Animate Dead / Necromancy on the Dragon, make a billion UB mana, and then animate the Mage, targeting Intuition. You then play Intuition for Oona and 2 more Animate Deads, and kill them. Or, if they give you Snapcaster (but why would they?) you make infinite mana, cast Snapcaster targeting Intuition, play Intuition for 3 Entombs, cast Entomb and grab Oona, and then reanimate Oona instead of Dragon to break the loop, and kill them.

Other wins are Entomb for Dragon with Animate Dead / Necromancy and Snapcaster in hand, and Animate Dead / Necromancy on Dragon with Drownyard in play. So, there are a lot of angles. Intuition for 3 Cabal Therapy also seems like a strong defensive play, when needed. I might want to fit in one Crippling Fatigue or one Darkblast — certainly in the sideboard. F U Deathrite Shaman!

Speaking of the sideboard, I'm tempted to play a transformational manplan but I also feel like that's a big risk (no game against faster combo decks, for example). Such a plan could be something like: -4 Entomb, -2 Dragon, -4 Animate Dead, -2 Necromancy, -1 Intuition, +4 Deathrite Shaman, +4 Delver of Secrets, +4 Tarmogoyf, +1 Tropical Island. But I'd also be interested in trying to beat graveyard hate the more conventional way, with things like Dispel, Abrupt Decay, Krosan Grip, Divert, etc. That seems slow, however. So I'm not loving either angle.

Any thoughts on this list? I was psyched to realize that Intuition + Animate Dead / Necromancy opens us up to a 2 card combo, and I'm also psyched about the utility of SCM in this deck — seems far superior to playing Cunning Wish, which is slow and often useless until you combo. Here, you can play SCM to flashback whatever and still win if you reanimate Dragon with it in play. (In fact, if we splash red, we could even let SCM die, and then reanimate it with infinite mana floating, breaking the loop, and entomb for some spell that deals XR with flashback, which I'm pretty sure exists. But that would require a red splash, and I'm not sure it's necessary since this might end up being a corner case. Then again, it'd be nice to just let SCM block without worrying about it too much. I'll check this option out. Can anyone think of an option in black or blue that we could entomb for with infinite UB floating and then kill with (remembering that our Animate Dead / Necromancy would be enchanting SCM so that it can't switch to enchanting Oona)? I can't.)

Edit: The red card is Devil's Play. That would take some setting up, however, and would be dead a lot of the time.

Edit 2: Mystical Teachings! Hell yeah! So the change I'd make is -1 Gitaxian Probe, +1 Teachings, and -1 Cabal Therapy, +1 Thoughtseize cause I'm a noob who doesn't want to play 4 Therapy without a bunch of Probes to back them up.

[Weapon X]

I'm not sure what you are saying with intuition. The deck is a two card combo: reanimation spell + dragon. That gives us a draw or win.

Stoke of genius is the blue card. And I don't feel petal has a place in the list.

I don't like how you seem to lack consistency with your deck. The list I posted before yours was aimed at being very focused. 9 ways to reanimate the dragon. 13 ways to put it in the yard. Many of the filtering cards function as ways to win alongside lands. I do feel being able to play as many instants as you can is a huge benefit to the deck. The choke point is when we reanimate as we should win there. It would then seem that we want reactionary answers and ways to preserve our life. I really like pack rats in the deck to the point I think they should be main decked. They allow us to present pressure while also helping the main dragon plan.


I feel like this became a rant of sorts so I'll leave it alone for now. I feel like a lot of stuff is running through my head and it won't be coherent.

[Atari]

Found this article on gatheringmagic.com (http://www.gatheringmagic.com/carlosgutierrez-01262016-daily-deck-list-dragon-reanimator).