Dice to keep track of power and toughness.

[Star|Scream]

Hi, I got really cool dice to keep track of power/toughness of Goyfs, but then was reading on some really old threads that this may not be a good idea from a rules perspective.

I'm still really confused about it because I know SCG uses one on their feature matches, but some people were saying you shouldn't use them.

What's the story?

[danyul]

SCG uses them to make it easier for the viewers to see what's going on. Most friendly players will use regular dice anyways to show their Goyf's Power and also avoid confusion. You don't technically have to use dice since it's inferred info and your opponent can check for him/herself by looking at all the Graveyards. The only reason not to use dice is if you just don't wanna make life easier for your opponent, which is a legit reason not to. However, the competitive edge you gain by doing this is very marginal and anyways, I think it's lame to win a game just because your opponent misread the graveyard/Goyf size. From a rules perspective, you don't have to spell things out for your opponent by showing the P/T at all times. And also, if you forget to tick it up/down, you could possibly get pegged for misrepresenting the gamestate? If your opponent is an ass, that could possibly happen? However, for most people I think it's just a courteous way to more quickly show the game state rather than having both players constantly pawing through graveyards to check P/T all the time, although you will likely have to do that anyways to constantly update the die.

TLDR: there shouldn't be any rules reason not to use the die. However, there may be a slight competitive edge gained by *not* using them. Personally, I think it's a gentlemanly gesture (and it's cool that those dice exist) but I have no strong feelings either way.

[TsumiBand]

You have to be at a "semi-serious" REL for it to matter, since there is no distinction between free information and derived information at Regular REL, but if you're in a tournament where derived information matters and you're using dice to indicate a */* creature's P/T, you could get dinged if some confusion arises. It's no different than using face-down cards to represent tokens when there may be a face-down creature with Morph or Manifest in play; you can't just cross the streams like that. The same is true of dice, especially those used to indicate a creature's total power and toughness; after all, +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters annihilate each other, precisely so that they cannot be confused when calculating total PT, right? There are a *lot* of different counters a creature could have on it; +1/+1, -1/-1, gold counters, charge counters, third-degree-burn counters, divinity counters, spore counters, and so on.

Again, at a low enough REL this should never be an issue because the information is always considered either free or private, never derived. But I'd do it with some caution at higher RELs, regardless of how SCG does or what it allows.

[Julian23]

What I dislike about dices is how some people expect YOU to correct THEIR dice when they actually made a mistake in calculating their Tarmogoyf's size. They feel the dice suddenly became part of the game and not notifying them about their mistake would be Cheating. It is not. If you wanna put whatever to the table and start rolling it around that's your business; I will take the correct amount of damage from Goyf once it matters. But until then I will silently let you live with the illusion that your guy is still 4/5 when in fact he's just 3/4.

[alphastryk]

I actually find dice for Goyfs (or swiftspears or anything that doesn't have counters on it) to be really annoying / confusing.

I'd prefer that nobody ever used them. There was a point in time (might still be true?) where you'd actually have to not use them if your opponent asked.

I know I might be in the minority though - I'm really picky about being precise.

[AngryTroll]

If I put a die with a 3 on my Goyf to represent it being a 3/4, but I miss a fourth card type going to a graveyard, could I get in trouble for misrepresenting the game state? I have heard that this is the case, but I've never seen it happen.

At my local shop I use dice, but at SCG Opens I do not.

[Meekrab]

If I put a die with a 3 on my Goyf to represent it being a 3/4, but I miss a fourth card type going to a graveyard, could I get in trouble for misrepresenting the game state? I have heard that this is the case, but I've never seen it happen.

At my local shop I use dice, but at SCG Opens I do not.
Only if you let you opponent take the wrong amount of damage; or kill a creature that shouldn't be killed or whatever.

[Star|Scream]

What I dislike about dices is how some people expect YOU to correct THEIR dice when they actually made a mistake in calculating their Tarmogoyf's size. They feel the dice suddenly became part of the game and not notifying them about their mistake would be Cheating. It is not. If you wanna put whatever to the table and start rolling it around that's your business; I will take the correct amount of damage from Goyf once it matters. But until then I will silently let you live with the illusion that your guy is still 4/5 when in fact he's just 3/4.

I try to verbally confirm with my opponent so we are both on the same page, regardless of who controls the creature. Yes, I get that they are not obligated to help me derive the power/toughness of my (or their) creature, but a little common courtesy to make the game flow more smoothly would be nice.

[iamajellydonut]

There's nothing that's necessarily "in da rules", but I do feel using dice for p/t sets up both players for for a certain amount of liability.

Personally I've stopped using dice because the next person who interrupts me midway through my second Loam with "I'm pretty sure Knight is a 6/6 now instead of a 7/7" is going to get a fork in the eye.

[Julian23]

Cleaning up some misconceptions.


Only if you let you opponent take the wrong amount of damage; or kill a creature that shouldn't be killed or whatever.

That's not true. He mentiones messing up and accidentally misrepresenting Goyf's size. In that case both players would actually get a warning because they are both responsible for not Goyf dealing the correct amount of damage (assuming the opp also accidentally miscalculated). It would be different if he intentionally misrepresented Goyf's size, which would get him at least DQ'ed.


I try to verbally confirm with my opponent so we are both on the same page, regardless of who controls the creature. Yes, I get that they are not obligated to help me derive the power/toughness of my (or their) creature, but a little common courtesy to make the game flow more smoothly would be nice.

What you call a smooth flow of the game is actually just about making life slightly easier for the player who feels he needs to confirm the size of Goyf as it allows him to have a better focus on the game. I sometimes mumble to myself about the size of a Goyf on the field while checking, but expecting your opponent to confirm it is somewhat selfish as that would hold him liable to what he said while helping you out in the process of making sure your analysis of the board situation is correct.


There's nothing that's necessarily "in da rules", but I do feel using dice for p/t sets up both players for for a certain amount of liability.

That's the attitude I was referring to earlier. Being continously aware of Goyfs size is - for the lack of a better term - skill. To some people this can be more challenging, to other's it's easy. If you want to use a dice AND expect your opponent to be liable for your mistakes in calculting the current size of the Goyf, you are doing nothing else than expecting your opp to not capitalize on your mistakes. That's unfair and selfish, honestly.

[sdematt]

If someone puts dice on my Russian Goyfs, I just say the line, "I will break you...." and move the dice away. If my SCG footage from ages ago is still up, I repeatedly move the dice away and try to not use it. There's an edge to you paying attention and your opponent not paying attention.

-Matt

[Technics]

If someone puts dice on my Russian Goyfs, I just say the line, "I will break you...." and move the dice away. If my SCG footage from ages ago is still up, I repeatedly move the dice away and try to not use it. There's an edge to you paying attention and your opponent not paying attention.

-Matt

I wonder if anyone has brought it up with the judge that someone off camera keeping track of the goyf size is "outside assistance" and thus unless one of the players is the one updating it, then that dice can not be used. I know if I ever get in a feature match I will be making that argument.

[TsumiBand]

Here's the thing though, is if derived information directly affects free information, it's considered free.

It's one thing to casually ask what Goyf's inseam is before deciding to attack into it or not, but if the opponent casts, like... Wretched Banquet on your Tarmogoyf, and it wouldn't destroy it, you can't just shrug your shoulders and say "its power is equal to the number of different card types in our graveyards, DUH" because now the game (and the players) need to know whether or not the creature is actually dead. That's free information, and Goyf's P/T directly plays into that in this instance, so it is treated as free information in this context.

Worth noting is that you're under no obligation to divulge the power/toughness until it matters, so you can stay oblique-but-honest while they're casting the spell, but once it resolves you have to state the actual value.

[Star|Scream]

What you call a smooth flow of the game is actually just about making life slightly easier for the player who feels he needs to confirm the size of Goyf as it allows him to have a better focus on the game. I sometimes mumble to myself about the size of a Goyf on the field while checking, but expecting your opponent to confirm it is somewhat selfish as that would hold him liable to what he said while helping you out in the process of making sure your analysis of the board situation is correct..

Okay, fair enough, but say your opponent's graveyard isn't neatly laid out, do you ask to see their graveyard? Do you ask what card types they have in it?

[TsumiBand]

Maybe this will provide some context.


There are three categories of information: free, derived and private.

Free information is so called because all players are entitled access to this information without contamination or omissions made by their opponent. If you’re ever unable or unwilling to provide free information to an opponent that has requested it, you should call a judge and explain the situation.
Free Information includes:

Details of current game actions and past game actions that still affect the game state.

The name of any object in a public zone.

The physical status (tapped/flipped) and current zone of any object.

Player life totals and the game score of the current match.

Derived information is information to which all players are permitted, but which your opponents are not obliged to assist you in determining and may require some skill or calculation to determine.
Derived Information includes:

The number of objects present in any game zone.

All objects in public zones and any of their characteristics that are not defined as free information.

Game Rules, Tournament Policy, Oracle content and any other official information pertaining to the current event. Cards are considered to have their Oracle text printed on them.

Private information is so called because players have access to this information only if they are able to determine it from the current visual game state or their own record of previous game actions.

Any information that is not free or derived is automatically private information.

The following rules govern player communication:

Players must answer all questions asked of them by a judge completely and honestly, regardless of the type of information requested. They may request to do so away from the match.

Players may not represent derived or free information incorrectly, improperly, or falsely.

Players must answer completely and honestly any specific questions pertaining to free information.

At Regular REL, all derived information is instead considered free.

Judges are encouraged to help players in determining free information, but must avoid assisting players with derived information about the game state.

[Plague Sliver]

If someone puts dice on my Russian Goyfs, I just say the line, "I will break you...." and move the dice away. If my SCG footage from ages ago is still up, I repeatedly move the dice away and try to not use it. There's an edge to you paying attention and your opponent not paying attention.

-Matt

FWIW, I also think that them putting a die on your card, Goyf or not, is oppressive. Maybe SCG could invest in doing a Goyf P/T overlay for their coverage.

[Quasim0ff]

You are, afaik, not allowed to remove the dice if the opponent puts it next to the playmat, as a representation of P/T of Goyf.

Obviously, you are allowed to move the dice if they actively puts it ON your card.

[Ahtii]

I think time is main reason for dice being used. I dont feel like goyf die is needed , but I think its smart communicating fairly with opponent. Everytime when he / she asks about goyfs power , its smart to co-operate with counting it together. (same with kotr)

(I have creature , land , instant , sorcery... Anything from your side? Yea , i have planeswalker and artifact! 6/7)

If you just answer that "its power is equal to different card types in all graveyards" I think you have no right to be mad when opponent picks up graveyard piles 7 times per turn , and spends 20 minutes looking graveyards durring match. I dont think that favours really anyone.

Offcourse you could just skip all this and agree to use the die together (and let actual decissions durring game decide the outcome)

[Julian23]

If you just answer that "its power is equal to different card types in all graveyards" I think you have no right to be mad when opponent picks up graveyard piles 7 times per turn , and spends 20 minutes looking graveyards durring match. I dont think that favours really anyone.

You're acting as if always being aware of Tarmogoyf's wasn't a skill. If your opponent needs to pick up both graveyards a lot and spends a lot of time with that, that is in no way different than him taking a lot of time to think about a decision. There's an easy fix: you call a judge to watch for slowplay.


Offcourse you could just skip all this and agree to use the die together (and let actual decissions durring game decide the outcome)

See above.


Okay, fair enough, but say your opponent's graveyard isn't neatly laid out, do you ask to see their graveyard? Do you ask what card types they have in it?

My opponent can do whatever he wants with my graveyard. If he doesn't make a play within 30 seconds I will inform him that I am about to call a judge. If he still hasn't made one at about 45 seconds, I call a judge and explain what has been going on. It doesn't matter whether he spent his time trying to figure out Tarmogoyf's size or thinking about his next play.
With regards to me, I am fairly confidant in my ability to keep mental track of Tarmogoyf's size over the course of several turns.

[Jacob]

There is every rule in the book against putting a die on/next to goyf to represent its p/t. Try it on day 2 of a GP and count exactly how many seconds before a judge tells you to move it. High level judges agree that it is a source of confusion, highly problematic and something to be discouraged.

You cannot put random game objects onto the battlefield willy-nilly.

If you want to keep track of something on your notepad or with a die to the side, that is your choice. You and your opponent have no responsibility to keep each other's notes and reminders up to date, except life totals. If your opponent asks you goyf's p/t you do not have to answer.

There are any number of things that can go wrong with it. The die could roll over to a different number. It may be pushed onto a permanent. It may no longer be accurate. It may have never been accurate to start. (Bitterblossom is a card that can mess BOTH players up.) You may need to put actual counters on goyf. You may be using dice to track tokens.

To quote one high level judge, "Don't. Just don't."

[apple713]

Okay, fair enough, but say your opponent's graveyard isn't neatly laid out, do you ask to see their graveyard? Do you ask what card types they have in it?

yes you ask to see their graveyard. you have the right to do that as long as you are not doing it so often that you are causing slow play. I would always check goyf and rarely trust anything my opponent has marked. They miss cards that go to grave and sometimes he changes many times in a turn. With DRS, delve cards, and instants it changes so often that marking it rarely does any good.

[Shovel Knight]

How does this relate to using dice as reminders for things such as:

- Putting dice on top of your library to remind you of an aether vial trigger
- Using dice to denote extra turns (after time is called)
- Using dice for storm count, floating mana, etc.

I tend to not use dice for goyf because his p/t can change often and it's usually only relevant for one step of the turn (so many times I've seen people laboriously count his p/t on resolution only to have it STP'd or abrupt decayed EOT.

[Jacob]

Putting something small enough that it does not obstruct your library (like a die) to remind you to take actions before you draw is perfectly acceptable. It helps limit out of order sequencing. The only restriction is that whatever it is has to be smaller than a card. On top of your library is clearly not on the battlefield and the die is not keeping track of a number. There is no question of keeping the number correct or misrepresenting anything.

Judges often use the extra turns die if they are sitting at the table. While it is not mandatory, it may be a good way of reminding both players. You are actually obligated to announce floating mana in your mana pool every time you pass priority. That is a game rule, not a tournament rule. But, it is kept clearly outside the battlefield (sometimes in the no man's land in the center.) It is not representing any game object and represents free information which players are obligated to help each other informed about at all times.

The problem with a goyf die is that (a) it is on a permanent (b) representing derived information (c) in a way that the game uses to depict other things. None of those problems apply here.

Just as an additional note: If you ask your opponent what card types are in his graveyard, he doesn't have to answer and doesn't have to answer completely. So, if Bitterblossom is in the yard, he could just say Enchantment and omit Tribal. He can't lie to you, like he can about hidden information like the contents of his hand. If your opponent calls out types, they have to be there. He doesn't have to call out all or any of them.

[Star|Scream]

There is every rule in the book against putting a die on/next to goyf to represent its p/t. Try it on day 2 of a GP and count exactly how many seconds before a judge tells you to move it. High level judges agree that it is a source of confusion, highly problematic and something to be discouraged.

You cannot put random game objects onto the battlefield willy-nilly.

If you want to keep track of something on your notepad or with a die to the side, that is your choice. You and your opponent have no responsibility to keep each other's notes and reminders up to date, except life totals. If your opponent asks you goyf's p/t you do not have to answer.

There are any number of things that can go wrong with it. The die could roll over to a different number. It may be pushed onto a permanent. It may no longer be accurate. It may have never been accurate to start. (Bitterblossom is a card that can mess BOTH players up.) You may need to put actual counters on goyf. You may be using dice to track tokens.

To quote one high level judge, "Don't. Just don't."

Thank you for this. I have only really played online, where this is not an issue. I didn't know. I also had no idea that knowing Goyf's P/T was a skill! I just figured it was in everyone's best interest to always know what it was! Sorry.

[Technics]

So I just checked in with an L2 and we came to the following conclusion. If your opponent want's to maintain a "goyf dice" next to your card/play they are allowed to do so. You are not required to let them know to update it, or do anything else except you must maintain the game state and thus whenever Goyf deals damage or takes damage you must have it deal the correct damage and or die if it dies (this all should be no surprise to anyone).

However let's say you get two players who neither want the Goyf Dice. It is considered outside assistance for a third party to track derivied information at Competitive REL. However, even though having a SCG member track the power is considered outside assistance, and against "Da Rules" I was told "Star City will do what it wants at it's events" "But that's against what you just said is in the rules" "Star City will do what it wants at it's events..."

So there we go. It would be interesting if we could get two players to make this argument while on camera and see if SCG really would try to "override the rules".