[Article] Legacy Life After Treasure Cruise

[Einherjer]

Hey guys,

my new article (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30182_Legacy-Life-After-Treasure-Cruise.html) is up! Let me know how you liked it!

If you'd like more Legacy (also non-Miracle) content on SCG, let them know.
(https://sales.starcitygames.com/contactus/contactform.php?emailid=2)

Greetings

[Tammit67]

Hey guys,

my new article (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30182_Legacy-Life-After-Treasure-Cruise.html) is up! Let me know how you liked it!

If you'd like more Legacy (also non-Miracle) content on SCG, let them know.
(https://sales.starcitygames.com/contactus/contactform.php?emailid=2)

Greetings

As well written as this was, I can't help but find it... predictable(?). TLDR: "Decks that cruise pushed out, namely non-blue attrition strategies, will be back!" ...Obviously

The miracle piece focus was good: any chance to hear a good players discussing the philosophy of their deck is worth it.

[sdematt]

Overall, you did not talk about Junk enough, otherwise, good read ;)

[Einherjer]

Thank you very much for the feedback.

Tamnit, I wanted to write about something else, trust me. But it was made rather clear to me that people want to read this, from both players and SCG. So I wrote yet another of these articles that people want to read. I'd also like to explore new areas but as of now, they don't seem really open to me.

I hope you still enjoyed it and/or learned a little bit. :)

Greetings

[amalek0]

Thank you very much for the feedback.

Tamnit, I wanted to write about something else, trust me. But it was made rather clear to me that people want to read this, from both players and SCG. So I wrote yet another of these articles that people want to read. I'd also like to explore new areas but as of now, they don't seem really open to me.

I hope you still enjoyed it and/or learned a little bit. :)

Greetings

Honestly, I'd like to see a set of articles from you re-grounding classic theory articles from MTG's history, with miracles vs other decks as case studies.

[Einherjer]

Honestly, I'd like to see a set of articles from you re-grounding classic theory articles from MTG's history, with miracles vs other decks as case studies.

I'd love to write that!

But I'm not sure I can do that on SCG, unless they get enough E-Mails telling them that.

The other possibility is waiting for the new MTG Madness website, where I was promised a fixed/regular spot as a Legacy writer and, looking at the past, they have hardly any regulations on what I'm writing. We will see. :)

Greetings

[amalek0]

I'd love to write that!

But I'm not sure I can do that on SCG, unless they get enough E-Mails telling them that.

The other possibility is waiting for the new MTG Madness website, where I was promised a fixed/regular spot as a Legacy writer and, looking at the past, they have hardly any regulations on what I'm writing. We will see. :)

Greetings

The worst you can do is write the article, get it all nice and researched and drafted, then if ceddy boy doesn't want it, I'm sure there are websites that would. I feel like you have an advantage over a lot of other flash-in-the-pan MTG writers in that you have a thorough understanding and eloquence with respect to the actual nuts-and-bolts theory of how magic strategy pans out, not just the "these cards are good, these are bad, because they do/don't fit our gameplan" explanations that is all most writers can churn out. No disrespect to the accomplishments of others, but it's the theorists like you and Carsten (and Frank Karsten for that matter) that write the articles that maintain relevance over time, because they apply to more than just a given metagame or deck. We've all read "who's the beatdown" and "the philosophy of fire" even if we didn't agree with everything in them right?

[Einherjer]

Thanks for the kind and encouraging words!

As soon as I'm back from Hawaii at the beginning of March I might actually do just that. :)

Greetings

[Tammit67]

The worst you can do is write the article, get it all nice and researched and drafted, then if ceddy boy doesn't want it, I'm sure there are websites that would. I feel like you have an advantage over a lot of other flash-in-the-pan MTG writers in that you have a thorough understanding and eloquence with respect to the actual nuts-and-bolts theory of how magic strategy pans out, not just the "these cards are good, these are bad, because they do/don't fit our gameplan" explanations that is all most writers can churn out. No disrespect to the accomplishments of others, but it's the theorists like you and Carsten (and Frank Karsten for that matter) that write the articles that maintain relevance over time, because they apply to more than just a given metagame or deck. We've all read "who's the beatdown" and "the philosophy of fire" even if we didn't agree with everything in them right?

And if no one takes it, post it here

[Einherjer]

I just asked the person in charge over at MTG Madness and it seems as nothing would stand in contradiction to these article(s), starting around March as soon as I'm back. :)

Well, these things are a lot of work to just post them on an open forum, though. :)

Greetings

[lyracian]

But I'm not sure I can do that on SCG, unless they get enough E-Mails telling them that.
The other possibility is waiting for the new MTG Madness website, where I was promised a fixed/regular spot as a Legacy writer and, looking at the past, they have hardly any regulations on what I'm writing. We will see. :)
Where ever you end up I am sure there will be a crowd of readers willing to follow. You do have some strong opinions; but at least you back them up with results. I also agree that Wasteland will be on the rise again.

[Einherjer]

Where ever you end up I am sure there will be a crowd of readers willing to follow. You do have some strong opinions; but at least you back them up with results. I also agree that Wasteland will be on the rise again.

Thank you very much, Sir. :)

Greetings

[wcm8]

Are the UWr Miracles players I'm facing in tournaments just bad, or is BUG Delver a much harder matchup for this deck than you seem to let on? I'm not trying to brag here, but I'm fairly certain I'm undefeated against this deck in tournament rounds with BUG Delver. Hymn to Tourach gets me ahead on cards, Abrupt Decay deals with Counterbalance and Rest in Peace, and resolving a Sylvan Library pretty much seals the deal. Granted I have a sideboard that's pretty strong against UWr and have also played the matchup enough to know the correct lines of play, and it also seems like the Miracles players in my meta aren't running as many copies of Entreat the Angels as you recommend. But overall I've never felt like this was an 'impossible' matchup for me.

I can see how other Delver strategies suffer a lot more from not having an out to a resolved Counterbalance, but I doubt that BUG is as simple of a matchup for Miracles.

[nitewolf9]

Yeah, Miracles has a rough time against BUG. I think the only time I've lost to that deck is when they stick a blood moon I'm not ready for or I keep a weak hand and Jace resolves and goes unanswered for a few turns.

[Einherjer]

My experience is quite the opposite, good Sirs. For example, when I heard from a friend that my R15 opponent at GP Paris was BUG Delver I was very happy, like very very happy. I already felt like I was in the Top8, what could possibly go wrong? It's not as autowin-ey as Patriot, but still incredibly positive and very hard to lose. I think it's just you being outstandingly well experienced in BUG and therefore crushing a MU, that would otherwise be bad or you prepare exceedingly well for it while your opponent doesn't even bring Disenchant. Unless you load up very aggressively on Null Rods, Bitterblossoms, Pithing Needles, Sylvan Library... well - unless you pack like all of them, you're falling prey to the good old Disenchant, Snapcaster Disenchant. I am sorry for my short response, I'm just gathering all my stuff before Im leaving for Hawaii, but I might write something more later, in a few days or maybe a week.

Greetings

[wcm8]

I would be pretty happy if Miracles brought in Disenchant against me, as that's an incredibly narrow answer to a very small portion of the deck. I'd also prefer if a Miracles opponent forgoes Rest in Peace for Snapcaster Mage, this just means my Deathrites and Goyfs remain suitable threats.

It's not an auto-win for BUG either, but I'd rather face a durdling control deck like Miracles instead of some sort of midrange Aggro.

I just don't find UWR Miracles to be quite the juggernaut you claim it to be. Maybe it has to do with the US metagame being so different? It seems like the deck struggles against stuff like Jund, DnT, Junk/Nic Fit, Eldrazi Ramp, MUD, Shardless BUG, Elves (to an extent), Infect (again, to an extent), UBx planeswalker type decks, etc... Fast combo even has a fairly good shot of just getting there. Idk, mostly it just seems like Miracles ends up in the draw bracket and fails to top 8 consistently.

[Einherjer]

I am sorry if I appear disrespectful. But when you don't bring in Disenchant and don't understand its value from the Delver side of the board, then you have no, literally no, idea how this match-up plays out. I am sorry.

Greetings

[btm10]

I would be pretty happy if Miracles brought in Disenchant against me, as that's an incredibly narrow answer to a very small portion of the deck. I'd also prefer if a Miracles opponent forgoes Rest in Peace for Snapcaster Mage, this just means my Deathrites and Goyfs remain suitable threats.

It's not an auto-win for BUG either, but I'd rather face a durdling control deck like Miracles instead of some sort of midrange Aggro.

I just don't find UWR Miracles to be quite the juggernaut you claim it to be. Maybe it has to do with the US metagame being so different? It seems like the deck struggles against stuff like Jund, DnT, Junk/Nic Fit, Eldrazi Ramp, MUD, Shardless BUG, Elves (to an extent), Infect (again, to an extent), UBx planeswalker type decks, etc... Fast combo even has a fairly good shot of just getting there. Idk, mostly it just seems like Miracles ends up in the draw bracket and fails to top 8 consistently.

This is very much my experience as well. One guy at my local has put together a Miracle list that I consider to be about even against me when I'm playing BUG Delver, but I'm something like 10-2 against UWr Miracles in sanctioned matches. And partially seconded on Disenchant and Wear/Tear - the things they hit are awesome in the matchup, but spending the turn dealing with them isn't great for Miracles, either. Miracles just has so few relevant cards in the matchup, and the BUG player has a lot of redundant answers to them. It's not that I've found that the BUG Delver/Miracles matchup is far off of even - the relevant cards that Miracles has are extremely powerful and end the game quickly if unanswered - but I've found the matchup to be slightly (though meaningfully) in my favor.

[Koplinchen]

Most Miracles players are bad - but that does not mean the deck is bad.

[Dragonslayer_90]

As someone who has played both Miracles and Team America extensively and have played the MU many times, I am still not 100% sure how to exactly classify the MU. To determine this for sure I would have to do dedicated playtesting. As much as I would like to do that I probably don't have enough time due to school. Anyways, I am inclined to agree with Ein that this MU is at least somewhat positive even if not autowin as Patriot given that both Pilots are an equal level of experience with the deck. HOWEVER, I think the Miracles side is HIGHLY Pilot dependent. Like if the Miracles Pilot is not at least an above average at playing Miracles well then I would put the MU in favor of BUG because the nature of the latter allows one to take advantage pretty easily when the Miracles player stumbles because of misplays. Overall, my experience with this MU has been rather mixed. When I face someone who doesn't have as much experience with BUG as I do Miracles, I pretty much just crush them. If they are more even with me games are often close and can go either way. If the BUG player has more experience with their deck or might just be a better player than me overall, then games usually finish out in their favor but can still be close.

As for why Miracles does not Top 8 as much in the U.S., It seems to me that its for a similar reason that Storm was doing better in Europe than in the States pre-Treasure Cruise: 1. Different preferences among players in a given part of the world will yield different metagame compositions. People in Europe seem to really love combo and control decks which is why you will see a higher penetration of Storm and Miracles. Really though, this is not something that's hard to figure out if you even have an inkling of how to compare different cultures. 2. This might seem slightly offensive but I'm starting to believe it's actually true. I think that Europe probably just has a higher number of proficient to excellent Miracle players. In America, on the other hand, this doesn't seem to be the case still, which is why the amount of people who Top 8 with Miracles is not as much. This is probably only because the deck has not been played here in the states as long as Europe has so there not enough good pilots for it to Top 8 as much in America as it does in Europe. Would Americans finally see the light and find out that Miracles is the best deck once they played it enough? I have no fucking idea because I am not entirely sure Miracles is the best deck. Personally I don't think such deck can exist in Legacy. One thing I can say for sure it certainly is that Miracles is one of legacy's greatest decks, and it is extremely rewarding for a pilot provided they play tightly. But even if we had as much good Miracle players as Europe we can't really say how much percentage of the meta it would occupy since our metagame certainly is different from Europe due to different preferences between the player bases.

[AngryTroll]

My experience is quite the opposite, good Sirs. For example, when I heard from a friend that my R15 opponent at GP Paris was BUG Delver I was very happy, like very very happy. I already felt like I was in the Top8, what could possibly go wrong? It's not as autowin-ey as Patriot, but still incredibly positive and very hard to lose. I think it's just you being outstandingly well experienced in BUG and therefore crushing a MU, that would otherwise be bad or you prepare exceedingly well for it while your opponent doesn't even bring Disenchant. Unless you load up very aggressively on Null Rods, Bitterblossoms, Pithing Needles, Sylvan Library... well - unless you pack like all of them, you're falling prey to the good old Disenchant, Snapcaster Disenchant...


I would be pretty happy if Miracles brought in Disenchant against me, as that's an incredibly narrow answer to a very small portion of the deck. I'd also prefer if a Miracles opponent forgoes Rest in Peace for Snapcaster Mage, this just means my Deathrites and Goyfs remain suitable threats...


I am sorry if I appear disrespectful. But when you don't bring in Disenchant and don't understand its value from the Delver side of the board, then you have no, literally no, idea how this match-up plays out. I am sorry.

I think what happened here is that Einherjer mentioned the cards he most fears out of BUG's sideboard, including Null Rod, Bitterblossom, Pithing Needle, and Sylvan Library, but wcm8's sideboard isn't chock full of those. Look at wcm8's sideboard from page 69 of the BUG Delver thread:

My list is fairly standard, but it's the tried-and-true list of what works.
...
SB:
3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
2 Envelop
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 V. Clique
1 Dread of Night
1 [flex] -- currently it's a 2nd Clique
...

After boarding, Disenchant hits 2 Sylvan Libraries and 2 Null Rods. They're highly relevant targets, but there aren't a ton of them. Envelop and Vendilion Cliques are extremely good against Miracles but don't die to Disenchant; if instead of the 2 Envelops and 2 Cliques wcm8 ran more Null Rods, Needles, and Bitterblossoms, you'd both agree about how important Disenchant is in the matchup.

Rest in Peace, on the other hand, neuters DRS, Goyf, and the singleton Tasigur, leaving only Delvers and Cliques as threats until the RiP can be destroyed. That's much more of a speed bump than Disenchanting a Sylvan Library, especially if the BUG Delver player gets a draw step with the Library in play.

[Shawon]

The article was a thoroughly informative read. I like the expansive list of configurations you suggest for different metagames and their reasoning, which shows that you think in more than one perspective. Thank you.

[btm10]

Most Miracles players are bad - but that does not mean the deck is bad.

This may not have been directed at me, but I'll respond anyway. First off, most Magic players are bad. Really, all of us are. I can't think of a tournament or testing session in the last two years where I walked away thinking I played perfectly, and post-event self criticism is one of the hallmarks of a good playgroup. You might argue that Miracles is less forgiving of mistakes than BUG (and you're likely right about this), but that's not particularly relevant to this discussion.

I think Miracles is a very good deck; indeed, it's one of the best in Legacy. However, I also think (and will expand on this below) that Miracles' relative merits are perceived as greater in Europe than they are in the US and I'm not totally sure of the reason for this.


As someone who has played both Miracles and Team America extensively and have played the MU many times, I am still not 100% sure how to exactly classify the MU. To determine this for sure I would have to do dedicated playtesting. As much as I would like to do that I probably don't have enough time due to school. Anyways, I am inclined to agree with Ein that this MU is at least somewhat positive even if not autowin as Patriot given that both Pilots are an equal level of experience with the deck. HOWEVER, I think the Miracles side is HIGHLY Pilot dependent. Like if the Miracles Pilot is not at least an above average at playing Miracles well then I would put the MU in favor of BUG because the nature of the latter allows one to take advantage pretty easily when the Miracles player stumbles because of misplays. Overall, my experience with this MU has been rather mixed. When I face someone who doesn't have as much experience with BUG as I do Miracles, I pretty much just crush them. If they are more even with me games are often close and can go either way. If the BUG player has more experience with their deck or might just be a better player than me overall, then games usually finish out in their favor but can still be close.

This may be right in an idealized world of both decks playing the perfect lines every time. That being said, our playtesting around the time of GP NJ showed how much play there is to the matchup, especially postboard. It was especially helpful to rewind the game states when we did so to see how each of us taking different lines would've changed the outcome.




As for why Miracles does not Top 8 as much in the U.S., It seems to me that its for a similar reason that Storm was doing better in Europe than in the States pre-Treasure Cruise: 1. Different preferences among players in a given part of the world will yield different metagame compositions. People in Europe seem to really love combo and control decks which is why you will see a higher penetration of Storm and Miracles. Really though, this is not something that's hard to figure out if you even have an inkling of how to compare different cultures.


I agree that this is the case empirically, but I'm still somewhat surprised that with all the attention that gets paid to Legacy now we still see such large regional metagame variations. I big part of this might be cost and the relatively lower frequency of big events in Europe, but we still see large variations within the US as well, with the relatively high popularity of decks like Lands and Imperial Painter in parts of the US and their almost total absence in others. Even in our region, I see far fewer Stoneforge Mystics at local weeklies (and this is across several stores) than seem to turn up in the Pacific Northwest.



2. This might seem slightly offensive but I'm starting to believe it's actually true. I think that Europe probably just has a higher number of proficient to excellent Miracle players. In America, on the other hand, this doesn't seem to be the case still, which is why the amount of people who Top 8 with Miracles is not as much.

This doesn't surprise or offend me, though one could make the same argument about having fewer extremely proficient BUG players in Europe and I don't think the difference in skill cap between the two decks is particularly large. The main reason I've stuck to BUG over Miracles (aside from the 'I sold my Tundras' issue; I could get Tundras pretty easily if I wanted them) is that while both decks have good and bad matchups, Miracles' bad ones seem to be much more polarized (Post, MUD) than BUG's (Painter, Burn), especially in the case of BUG Delver.

[Dragonslayer_90]

This may be right in an idealized world of both decks playing the perfect lines every time. That being said, our playtesting around the time of GP NJ showed how much play there is to the matchup, especially postboard. It was especially helpful to rewind the game states when we did so to see how each of us taking different lines would've changed the outcome.

I agree there is a lot of play in the MU. I've had some of my best games of legacy playing this MU from both sides whether I was on BUG Delver or Miracles. With that said, I also enjoy testing with you so if you ever have time in the future, hit me up and I'll try and make time to test on Cockatrice. Probably a good idea since I won't seeing you at locals anymore...:cry:





I agree that this is the case empirically, but I'm still somewhat surprised that with all the attention that gets paid to Legacy now we still see such large regional metagame variations. I big part of this might be cost and the relatively lower frequency of big events in Europe, but we still see large variations within the US as well, with the relatively high popularity of decks like Lands and Imperial Painter in parts of the US and their almost total absence in others. Even in our region, I see far fewer Stoneforge Mystics at local weeklies (and this is across several stores) than seem to turn up in the Pacific Northwest.

I'm pretty sure cost coupled with playerbase preferences are the biggest determining factors in what gets played where. Sure SCG results have a significant influence on players in the U.S. at least, but you said it yourself even then there are still huge metagame variations between regions in the U.S. The financial barrier of entry is just too high for most people to afford having more than one or two decks. I wish the legacy meta could be more organic in paper but I think this is just the result of: 1. A format shackled by the reserve list 2. One of the essential ideas of an eternal format is that you can play the decks you want to play for a very long time, which is what many people do 3. Not only Magic but Legacy in particular is HARD. I think this is another reason most people stick to a limited number of decks rather than trying to be a jack of all trades. Many legacy decks are complicated in and of themselves compared to decks in other formats and so are the games as well.




This doesn't surprise or offend me, though one could make the same argument about having fewer extremely proficient BUG players in Europe and I don't think the difference in skill cap between the two decks is particularly large. The main reason I've stuck to BUG over Miracles (aside from the 'I sold my Tundras' issue; I could get Tundras pretty easily if I wanted them) is that while both decks have good and bad matchups, Miracles' bad ones seem to be much more polarized (Post, MUD) than BUG's (Painter, Burn), especially in the case of BUG Delver.

If I'm understanding what you mean by "skill cap", I disagree on the skill cap between the decks. Miracles seems to take more practice to get proficient with than BUG Delver since the former is just inherently more complex than the latter. This is why I think I've only recently gotten to a point where I can consider myself an "above average" Miracles player. After SCG Columbus last year where I Top 64'ed with Miracles, I just lost most of the time, even at locals. Other factors aside, I was still learning how to play the deck proficiently. With that said, I can understand your decisions to stick with BUG based on MUs, but I'm pretty sure Painter and Burn see more play than 12 Post and MUD still. Either way, there's no problem saying you like BUG more overall as I gravitated towards Miracles because I thought I'd like it more, and that is how it is now. Metagame considerations did factor into my decision as I wouldn't play something that is almost or completely unplayable, but they were only secondary to what I thought would make legacy more fun for me:cool:

[twndomn]

After boarding, Disenchant hits 2 Sylvan Libraries and 2 Null Rods. They're highly relevant targets, but there aren't a ton of them. Envelop and Vendilion Cliques are extremely good against Miracles but don't die to Disenchant; if instead of the 2 Envelops and 2 Cliques wcm8 ran more Null Rods, Needles, and Bitterblossoms, you'd both agree about how important Disenchant is in the matchup.

Rest in Peace, on the other hand, neuters DRS, Goyf, and the singleton Tasigur, leaving only Delvers and Cliques as threats until the RiP can be destroyed. That's much more of a speed bump than Disenchanting a Sylvan Library, especially if the BUG Delver player gets a draw step with the Library in play.

RiP is really really bad in BUG Delver match-up if you play Snapcaster build. Fundamentally, if you successfully resolve creature removal on DRS, Goyf, Delver, and Clique, BUG cannot win, doesn't matter even if null rod is on board. I would understand RiP if you're fighting Loam/PFire/reanimator decks.

Most of the BUG Delver loss I have experienced is because BUG's explosive start. Thoughtseize, Hymn, then Threats. That's very tough. While I am looking for removal, BUG's looking for Stifle or Counter to try to trip up my eventual removal spells.

Hence this MU is certainly dynamic and I would slightly favor Miracles. There're worse MU Miracles should pay attention to, this is not one of them.