Esper MentorBlade

[hobart]

Esper MentorBlade AKA Prowess Control


I have been getting my ass kicked on Cockatrice lately by this Monastery Mentor guy (in Legacy and Vintage) so I decided to start brewing up a control deck with him and other cards that I like:

Creatures: 10

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Baleful Strix

Spells: 29

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Dig Through Time
1 Supreme Verdict

Artifacts: 3

1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sensei’s Top

Lands: 18

2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra

Sideboard: 15

3 Meddling Mage
2 Disenchant
2 Duress
1 Flusterstorm
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction

So, this Mentor fellow is a big slow 3-drop, and as such is best in a control shell. Once you have board control, however, the army he develops can put massive pressure on the opponent and win very quickly.

Some personal preference based choices:

-Lots of cantrips, light on lands as a result. Cantrips are great with prowess, so we shouldn't have to run too many lands, but we still want to fetch basics against wasteland decks because we like our land drops to stick so that we can deploy our bombs on time.

-Baleful strix. Just a solid defensive creature that slows down most aggro on us and wears equipment. Underplayed IMO.

-A combination of discard and counters. I don't like losing to combo every game. A diverse set of disruption is strongest against this. These cards are almost never dead in any matchup either. Therapy is ofcourse synergistic with things that make creatures as well as Gitaxian Probe.


A few different directions we can take this:

1. SDT + Counterbalance. SDT has great synergy with Mentor, CB has great synergy with SDT, is it worth it to try jamming this in? At the moment only could fit one Top but maybe more is better.

2. Getting rid of the SFM package. Seems powerful, but may not be necessary. In general I think it's good in white decks with creatures.

3. Planeswalkers. Maybe we want less creatures/cantrips and more hard hitting stuff like Jace/Lili.

The sideboard is ofcourse Meta dependent but maybe some obvious ones I'm missing since I don't play this color combo often.

I could be way off base but I think this could develop into a strong control deck.


All criticism welcome.

[Deckerator]

At first i really like your idea of building a deck around Monastery Mentor.
I love this card and wanna find a home for him, too.

To your list. Have you already done some testings? This list looks solid but i think not strong enough to be competitive.
You told us you wanna play a "control" deck but i only see 4 Force of Will (card disadvantage counter) no Spell Pierce no Counterspell, no Counterbalance/Sensei's Divining Top lock. There are only 4 Force, 2 Thoughtseize and 3 Cabal Therapy.
Why did you choose that 2/3 split between Thoughtseize and Theraphy? Furthermore if you wanna play a control deck, you need more lands than 18. A control deck often contains of ~22/23 lands.

I think it is clear that Monastery Mentor isn't a card for Aggro but rather for control.
But what cards are a good shell for him?
Maybe we can create a list of all useful cards of a MM - control deck

[Leduendas]

I thought about this kind of deck and I can't find a place for SFM package.

First, this use a lot of space, in thoose 6 slots you can add 2 lands 2 counters and 2 kills instead on one kill package.

Second, SFM is unusable early game in a controle shell and needs 2 turns to set up so it's too slow for end game when MM will breack the game.

Last I think that with MM and without TC we'll need jace to make it work. You'll have to go to mid game to land MM and you'll ne cards to build up an army. But runing esper you'll use your hand in early game to disrupt your oponent and will probably have an empty hand when you'll need fuel.

So I came out with this kill package for an esper control MM deck:
3 MM
3 snap
2 tasigur
2 jace

That way you have more card advantage, more chances to trigger MM and more space for the counter package. I'd suggest you to go up to 20 lands, For myself I think 21 is good.

I won't post any list beause it's pointless atm. I didn't had the chance to make any tests but I can't wait for it.

[hobart]

So I did some testing with the initial list. Not bad, and plenty of things it did great. I did actually like the stoneforge package in my testing, simply because there are still decks that have a really hard time with batterskull, although it is quite slow. I also liked that every single creature in the deck represented card advantage. Many times you'll be left with just a prowess token on board, and so many draw steps pump him that the opponent is forced to use removal on the token. The idea behind the low land count is the huge number of cantrips and pretty low curve (see Grixis control). That being said the primary threat is a 3-drop (unlike in Grixis) and even then it's nice to have another mana open to cast a spell to trigger him the turn he's played. I never really had to cast the Verdict, so I could perhaps drop that and add another basic land. Against midrangey decks I brought in the planeswalkers out of the board and they were awesome. Also, as expected, if you can untap with a Mentor you pretty much win the game right there.

[Deckerator]

Like Leduendas said, maybe you can find time to test it without the SFM package.

Have you thought about testing Jace, TNN, Snappy, V-Clique?
Maybe some more of SdT would be interesting too. So you can create a kind of loop with two of them if you have some unused mana.

For Example:
Top#1 is in play, Top#2 is on top of the library.
You draw Top#2 with Top#1 and put Top#1 back on library.
Then play Top#2 and draw Top#1 and put Top#2 back on library.
And play Top#1 again and so on..

This would be great. We would generate a lot of tokens and pimp the others. :cool:
IMO SdT should be played more than once :wink:

[Leduendas]

I builded up a deck around this idea of esper mentor.

Thanks to another player ideas I came to run 3 MM 1 snap (cause of delve spells) 2 Tasigur 2 Jace 2 tops 3 cabals 1 thoughtsieze.
The other cards are 7 counters 14 cantrips (3 dtt) 20 lands.

I don't have the chance to play actual games ATM but goldfishing the deck shows how incredible tops are!

I didn't beleive it before testing. But the fact that you can draw with top then cantrip into top then recast it and loop is awesome. So top itselfs combo with 16 cards in the deck (including jace).

Tasigur is just awesome too!!!! you'll cantrip so much that your grave will fill with good cards while you'll stack lands on top the librairy to grave them with tasigur. And with a karakas you can even protect him!

Running cavern is a very good idea too as your creatures are all human.

The kill part of the deck runs very well, but without test I can't tell about the disrupt part. I'm a bit affraid of combo decks as the discard relys on probe (or skill when you know your matchup).

I still have to build the sideboard and I don't really know what to do ATM.

[Tormod]

I think the balesful strix should be lingering souls. That's 2 triggers for the Mentor, and more evasive bodies to carry equipment.

[Dr. No Face]

I didn't have time recently to test this, but using a similar list and making a few changes, it turned out like this:

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/04-02-15-esper-mentor-blade/

Any thoughts?

[hobart]

Been jamming at least a match or two a day when I have time and making some revisions, here's my updated list:

Creatures: 9

4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Monastery Mentor
2 Baleful Strix

Spells: 28

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Dig Through Time

Artifacts: 4

1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull
2 Sensei’s Top

Lands: 19

2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra

Sideboard: 15

3 Meddling Mage
2 Disenchant
2 Containment Priest
1 Flusterstorm
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction


I dropped a Mentor and the Verdict, and added a land in an attempt to bring the curve more in line with the land count. In several matchups (Stifle and/or Wasteland decks in particular) the main factor for success is sticking those land drops and getting those basics. The SFM is here to stay for me. I'll happily board a few out against combo if I have to, but against creature decks it's just too powerful. SFM wins games if they don't have an answer right away. I love Tormod's suggestion about Lingering Souls instead of Baleful Strix's, makes alot of sense, but the thing is I'm just not in the market for more 3-drops at this time. Perhaps with higher curve builds it would be better! I'm also stubborn, and pretty much never upset when I draw a Strix (I'm sure this is bias of some kind). The Cabal Therapies have been incredible. I'm quite experienced with the Legacy meta game at this point so even blind I can usually make a pretty good guess, and with Gitaxian Probe or Thoughtseize to lead the way it's ofcourse EZ-mode, and I love that every creature in the deck makes flashing back the therapy very efficient. The fast combo decks have not been much of an issue with all the disruption I'm packing, however, loam and counterbalance can be problematic. I can't even really come up with a good sideboard plan against counterbalance. In some of the grindy midrange matchups I want to bring in more Planeswalkers, perhaps I could squeeze a couple more into the board.

[Jasonam8]

Here is my list:

1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Batterskull
1 Armageddon
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Vindicate
1 Detention Sphere
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Lingering Souls
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Monastery Mentor
1 Life from the Loam
3 Dark Confidant
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
1 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mox Diamond
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Karakas
1 Tundra
1 Savanah
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest

I am still developing my sideboard.

[Kyle]

I threw this together yesterday and have been enjoying it overall, as it's got that classic UW control feel, and with Mentor, a pretty cool way to end the game.

Mentor, in this shell, is a late-game combo that mostly gets big from chaining cantrips on T6 or so on a clear or well-managed board. Casting him on T3 normally sucks and is a terrible play. I know most of you have come to this conclusion, but I feel it necessary to drive this home. Mentor is mostly worthless unless you cast him T4 or later. He needs to get a token (or two) as soon as he hits the board. Yes, the prowess triggers are only valid when he isn't sick anymore, but he really needs that token.

Here's my list. I'm still working on refining it. I love the Zealous Persecution + Mentor interaction, and Persecution can act as a mini-sweeper in some instances. I've considered running 1 or 2 Divert or a single Misdirection, since Abrupt Decay really sucks.

//INSTANTS
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Zealous Persecution
4 Dig Through Time
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
1 Flusterstorm

//SORCERIES
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Ponder
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

//CREATURES
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Monastery Mentor

//ARTIFACTS
2 Engineered Explosives

//PLANESWALKERS
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//LANDS
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Marsh Flats

//SIDEBOARD
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Meddling Mage
2 Containment Priest
1 Path to Exile
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Disenchant
2 Rest in Peace
1 Force of Will

[KazinMtg]

This is what I was thinking:


Creatures: 7
3 Monastery Mentor
3 Dark Confidant
1 Stoneforge Mystic


Spells: 29

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Lingering Souls
3 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Dig Through Time
2 Bitterblossom
1 Intuition

Enchantments: 1
1 Opposition

Planeswalkers: 2
1 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

Artifacts: 1
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

Lands: 20

2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland




The intuition is really cute since it can fetch 3 lingering souls, 3 cabal therapy, or a mix of the 2. It can also grab swords in a pinch. The opposition is something I'm testing, but seems promising. Not sure about how bob + dig through time will work, but I guess we will have to see. I think the deck has some promise, it can do a lot of powerful stuff.

[hobart]

I played MentorBlade at a recent FNM and had some good results! I ran this:

Creatures: 8

4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Baleful Strix

Spells: 29

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Dig Through Time
1 Lingering Souls

Artifacts: 4

1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull
2 Sensei’s Top

Lands: 19

2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra

Sideboard: 15

3 Meddling Mage
1 Disenchant
1 Seal of Cleansing
2 Flusterstorm
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Submerge

Similar to my most recent posted list except -1 Mentor +1 Lingering Souls simply because I only own 2 mentors, and some sideboard changes. I was very pleased with the deck's performance as I was able to go 3-1 in Swiss, won a top 8 match, and then split the top 4.

Round 1 lost to burn 2-1: On the draw my deck was just too slow, and I was on the draw games 1 and 3. I'm pretty sure Stoneforge into Batterskull is our only hope and game 3 I had it going but the Stoneforge got melted along with my face.

Round 2 beat Bant fish type tempo deck 2-0: Game 1 I'm getting tempoed out like crazy from weenies and batterskull beats with wastelands, but I'm finally able to stabilize with some fetched basics and a mentor at 1 life. I end up getting Jitte going on a spirit token, I get a shitload of Monk tokens in play, and he basically just has a batterskull. He realizes he can't win this game since I am generating counters on Jitte and he concedes even though he is at about 50 life. Game 2 he's playing creatures on the first few turns but I'm cantripping every turn, making land drops, and tightly clutching a Supreme Verdict. I cast the verdict when I hit the right mana and I think I about 6 for 1'd him. Easily won from there with a mentor as he's out of gas.

Round 3 beat Affinity 2-1: Game 1 he's on the play and empties his hand, swings for like 17 turn 2 and I have nothing relevant to do on my 2nd turn. Game's 2 and 3 he doesn't have the nuts and I'm able to remove the relevant permanents with STP and disenchant effects and easily win with card advantage.

Round 4 beat UR Delver 2-1: Game 1 he has super aggro draw with the right mix of Daze and burn for an easy win. Games 2 and 3 I'm able to grind him a bit with STPs and Zealous Persecution before he gets me too low and I stabilize with Batterskull.

Top8: beat the Monastery Mentor mirror match 2-1: This guy's deck was all over the place and it was awesome. Basically 4 color good stuff with Mentor and Dark Confidant and Jace and it was nuts. Come to think of it the deck looked a lot like one of the posters above, Jasonam8. I'd be shocked if it wasn't him. Anyway, 3 really long grindy games where we killed each other's shit over and over again and raped each other's hands with Cabal Therapies. I somehow came out on top game 3. I think I'm going to credit the basic lands I was able to fetch as he was showing Wastelands all game and they were pretty much worthless. My overall conservative manabase and cantrip style we agreed makes my deck a bit more consistent than his.

This is a strong deck guys. Stoneblade strategies are good again in this meta, and Monastery Mentor is for real. I will be running this deck for at least a few more events. If the results continue to be strong I may consider running it over my beloved Shardless at the next big event I attend.

[Jasonam8]

Esper MentorBlade AKA Prowess Control


I have been getting my ass kicked on Cockatrice lately by this Monastery Mentor guy (in Legacy and Vintage) so I decided to start brewing up a control deck with him and other cards that I like:

Creatures: 10

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Baleful Strix

Spells: 29

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Dig Through Time
1 Supreme Verdict

Artifacts: 3

1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sensei’s Top

Lands: 18

2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra

Sideboard: 15

3 Meddling Mage
2 Disenchant
2 Duress
1 Flusterstorm
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction

So, this Mentor fellow is a big slow 3-drop, and as such is best in a control shell. Once you have board control, however, the army he develops can put massive pressure on the opponent and win very quickly.

Some personal preference based choices:

-Lots of cantrips, light on lands as a result. Cantrips are great with prowess, so we shouldn't have to run too many lands, but we still want to fetch basics against wasteland decks because we like our land drops to stick so that we can deploy our bombs on time.

-Baleful strix. Just a solid defensive creature that slows down most aggro on us and wears equipment. Underplayed IMO.

-A combination of discard and counters. I don't like losing to combo every game. A diverse set of disruption is strongest against this. These cards are almost never dead in any matchup either. Therapy is ofcourse synergistic with things that make creatures as well as Gitaxian Probe.


A few different directions we can take this:

1. SDT + Counterbalance. SDT has great synergy with Mentor, CB has great synergy with SDT, is it worth it to try jamming this in? At the moment only could fit one Top but maybe more is better.

2. Getting rid of the SFM package. Seems powerful, but may not be necessary. In general I think it's good in white decks with creatures.

3. Planeswalkers. Maybe we want less creatures/cantrips and more hard hitting stuff like Jace/Lili.

The sideboard is ofcourse Meta dependent but maybe some obvious ones I'm missing since I don't play this color combo often.

I could be way off base but I think this could develop into a strong control deck.


All criticism welcome.

Good games, fun too. I was impressed by the positive interaction of SDT+MM. Spin top for 1 mana to try and find a non-creature spell, draw it with top, cast it for the triggers and you have a guaranteed prowess+MM trigger next turn for 1 colorless mana (with the possible upside of knowing if you have another possible trigger to draw with SDT again).

My revised list for my Abzan, Brainstorm and Jace deck

1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

1 Batterskull

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vindicate
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Monastery Mentor

4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Life from the loam
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 abrupt decay

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Swords to Plowshares

4 Mox Diamond

1 Scrubland
1 Marsh Flats
1 Savanah
1 Windswept Heath
1 tropical island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Tundra
1 Flooded Strand
1 Underground Sea
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bayou
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan port

Sideboard
1 Zealous Persecution
1 carpet of Flowers
1 pithing needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 sylvan library
1 Sword of fire and ice
2 leyline of the void
1 mirran crusader
1 Sword of feast and famine
1 true-name nemesis
1 containment priest
1 leyline of sanctity
1 kor firewalker
1 Flusterstorm

I've enjoyed some fun and interactive games with this legacy deck so far.

To KazinMtg : opposition seems like it could be very good , but I discourage using dig through time and dark confidant simultaneously.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

I know this isn't the blade version but this is what I've been working on:

Creatures: 7
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Baleful Strix

Spells: 22
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Dig Through Time

Artifacts: 5
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives

Enchantments: 3
3 Counterbalance

Planeswalkers: 4
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

Lands: 19
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard: 15
3 Meddling Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Duress
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Cursed Totem
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Path to Exile
1 Disenchant
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

[Jasonam8]

chaos;870584']I know this isn't the blade version but this is what I've been working on:

Creatures: 7
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Baleful Strix

Spells: 22
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Dig Through Time

Artifacts: 5
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives

Enchantments: 3
3 Counterbalance

Planeswalkers: 4
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

Lands: 19
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard: 15
3 Meddling Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Duress
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Cursed Totem
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Path to Exile
1 Disenchant
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

I like less strix and more dig. Easy to fuel delve with the deck.

[hobart]

chaos;870584']I know this isn't the blade version but this is what I've been working on:

Creatures: 7
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Baleful Strix

Spells: 22
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Dig Through Time

Artifacts: 5
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives

Enchantments: 3
3 Counterbalance

Planeswalkers: 4
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

Lands: 19
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard: 15
3 Meddling Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Duress
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Cursed Totem
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Path to Exile
1 Disenchant
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


I like the idea of Counter Top and no blades, I do think, however, that it needs more wrath effects if you are going to play this style. One of the main benefits of the SFM is that it holds down the fort during the early to midgame creature battles (in this sense I do like the addition Strixes). Miracles of course handles this with Terminus, but any board wiping effect would be considerable for this type of philosophy. Wrath, Verdict, maybe even more EEs or the before-mentioned Terminus. Seems like a good list to test though. Let us know how it plays out.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

That's the main idea behind the high strix count, bridge the gap between getting mentor or countertop online. I'll definitely try and see if something can be cup for a toxic deluge into the main as another sweeper. But I'll be playing this or something very close at a local tournament this saturday and report back how it does.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

Quick rundown, I went 3-3 at a local this past weekend.

Round 1 lost to Dragon Stompy 1-2. Didn't use FoW on the turn 1 Blood Moon because I had my swamp and Island in hand and thought that was good enough.

Round 2 beat Maverick 2-1. Game 1 Mentor came down on turn 6 and took over. Game 2 got blown out by turn 2 choke into thalia. Game 3 was able to use Jace to bounce his KotR 3 times until mentor was able to get online.

Round 3 lost to BWR 0-2. Game 1 he led with 3 discard spells into bob and lingering souls and eventually stoneforge. Game 2 was similar but he had all 4 wastelands to go with bob/stoneforge/grim lavamancer.

Round 4 lost 1-2 to Scapewish. Had pretty much every game in hand then a late flurry of discard into scapeshift lost game 2. Then game 3 had him on 0 cards with jace ticking up and he had 2 burning wish in a row while I couldn't find Force will after top fetch brainstorm.

Round 5 beat the guy that didn't show up!

Round 6 beat 12 Post 2-0. Game 1 a turn one probe into therapy ripped two brainstorms out of his hand leaving him with two eldrazi. That crippled him long enough to where I was able to get Jace up to ultimate before he was able to cast Ulamog. Game 2 he mulled on the play and I FoW'd his brainstorm in response to a thoughtseize taking away his candle. That slowed him down enough to let Jace and lili take over and lili's ultimate sealed the game.

Overall I feel like the deck was pretty strong. Mentor definitely flashed signs of dominance whenever he hit the table and there was a few questionable plays by me that cost me some games. I was also thrown off by the amount of non blue decks I faced, most of my sideboard was dedicated to fighting Miracles (which there are always a lot in my area), and other blue tempo and combo decks.

Here's the list for reference:

Creatures: 7
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Baleful Strix

Spells: 22
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Dig Through Time
1 Toxic Deluge

Artifacts: 5
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives

Enchantments: 3
3 Counterbalance

Planeswalkers: 4
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

Lands: 19
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard: 15
3 Meddling Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Path to Exile
1 Disenchant
1 Flusterstorm
2 Submerge

[Krimson Viper]

Looks like a pretty interesting deck! I really like Mentor and am looking for a deck where he shines, and Esper seems to be it, really. Is the SFM package really needed though? What match ups have you guys been noticing as far as favoring and not? Would Dark Confidant of Snapcaster Mage be more appropriate?

[mgrinshpon]

This is my completely untested, untuned list but thoughts? There are a few potential interactions that are potentially quite cute. The Cabal Ritual/Baleful Strix/Academy Ruins dream might very well be real! I can't find space to jam Gitaxian Probes in although lands could very well be cut. The Counterspell is definitely wrong but it's a strange, personal fetish of mine to include at least one in every blue deck I run. I'm not sure if the Zealous Persection is good choice, either, as it's not pitchable to Force of Will but it can be an absolute blowout. This particular version might want Jace in the place of Zealous Persecution in the main and the Zealous Persecution in the board.


//Creatures (9)
3 Baleful Strix
3 Monastery Mentor
3 Stoneforge Mystic

//Instants (17)
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
3 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Zealous Persecution

//Sorceries (10)
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Ponder
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Thoughtseize

//Artifact (4)
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte

//Land (20)
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

//Sideboard
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Meddling Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Disenchant
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Back to Basics
1 Rest in Peace
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

[hobart]

This is my completely untested, untuned list but thoughts? There are a few potential interactions that are potentially quite cute. The Cabal Ritual/Baleful Strix/Academy Ruins dream might very well be real! I can't find space to jam Gitaxian Probes in although lands could very well be cut. The Counterspell is definitely wrong but it's a strange, personal fetish of mine to include at least one in every blue deck I run. I'm not sure if the Zealous Persection is good choice, either, as it's not pitchable to Force of Will but it can be an absolute blowout. This particular version might want Jace in the place of Zealous Persecution in the main and the Zealous Persecution in the board.


//Creatures (9)
3 Baleful Strix
3 Monastery Mentor
3 Stoneforge Mystic

//Instants (17)
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
3 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Zealous Persecution

//Sorceries (10)
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Ponder
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Thoughtseize

//Artifact (4)
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte

//Land (20)
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

//Sideboard
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Meddling Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Disenchant
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Back to Basics
1 Rest in Peace
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


I like this list quite a bit (it's similiar to mine). I think Zealous Persecution is a bit too situational to maindeck. But if it's great in your meta then go for it. It certainly has great synergy with Mentor and his monks. The counterspell seems rough on the mana, but hey if you don't have a problem casting it in your games then more power to ya. Can't really go wrong with jace though, and he's great in this deck as expected. As far as Gitaxian probes, I'm not saying it's absolutely necessary, but I couldn't drop it. So great with mentor, cabal therapy, and it feeds dig through time. I like running a little lighter on mana as well and that helps enable it.

[hobart]

Looks like a pretty interesting deck! I really like Mentor and am looking for a deck where he shines, and Esper seems to be it, really. Is the SFM package really needed though? What match ups have you guys been noticing as far as favoring and not? Would Dark Confidant of Snapcaster Mage be more appropriate?

SFM is great vs creature decks, and kind of shit vs combo decks. In those matchups some number of them get boarded out for Meddling Mages, Containment Priest, and other specific hate. That being said, I don't think SFM is needed, but in it's place I'd play some combination of sweepers and/or Planeswalkers in the main deck (generally also shit vs combo). I just don't think Dark Confidant or Snapcaster do enough to help out against the creature decks. Snapcaster could possibly work well, but Dark Confidant dies too often before it has a chance to offer card advantage (unlike SFM), and with Force of Wills and Dig Through Time's in the deck he's got a good chance and hitting you hard, which sucks when you are trying to stabilize and you are possibly also taking self inflicted damage with gitaxian probe and thoughtseize.

[klaus]

Just my 2 Pence:

3 Bob
3 strix
3 MM
2 SFM
2 SCM

4 BS
4 Ponder
3 Probe
3 Thoughtseize
3 Therapy
4 FoW
4 STP
1 Vindicate
1 Jitte
(40)

4 Strand
4 Delta
4 Sea
4 Tundra
1 Scubland
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
(20)

SB:
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Supreme Verdict
2 RiP
2 Canonist
2 Clique
1 Disenchant
3 Flusterstorm

[Krimson Viper]

SFM is great vs creature decks, and kind of shit vs combo decks. In those matchups some number of them get boarded out for Meddling Mages, Containment Priest, and other specific hate. That being said, I don't think SFM is needed, but in it's place I'd play some combination of sweepers and/or Planeswalkers in the main deck (generally also shit vs combo). I just don't think Dark Confidant or Snapcaster do enough to help out against the creature decks. Snapcaster could possibly work well, but Dark Confidant dies too often before it has a chance to offer card advantage (unlike SFM), and with Force of Wills and Dig Through Time's in the deck he's got a good chance and hitting you hard, which sucks when you are trying to stabilize and you are possibly also taking self inflicted damage with gitaxian probe and thoughtseize.
Sitting here thinking about what you said, you're right. Taking so much damage from your own spells and DTT is just a better spell and triggers your win con is a lot better than not playing DTT and having Bob die before value. I think playing a Lili and a Jace is good though, to tag along as an additional win con. SFM probably throws the deck into over drive now that creature decks are taking off again. Snap as a one or two of might be a decent idea. Hold equipment as well.

Something like this would be what I would pilot at my next small tournament.
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Monastery Mentor

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
1 Dig Through Time

2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Batterskull

1 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
i want the second Batterskull because Brian Braun Duin has a solid point about something happening to your one Batterskull is terrible. A second on the battlefield is a quick end game as well as absolutely destroying aggro decks. The only reason I wanted to include planeswalkers is to help attack on different axis. It helps that they trigger prowess. I didn't bother with trying to build a sideboard as I don't have a clue how the deck really operates.

[mgrinshpon]

Ran the following list at an unlimited proxy Legacy event tonight for the first time ever.


//Creatures (9)
3 Baleful Strix
3 Monastery Mentor
3 Stoneforge Mystic

//Instants (16)
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
3 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

//Sorceries (10)
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Ponder
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Thoughtseize

//Artifact (4)
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte

//Planeswalker(1)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Land (20)
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

//Sideboard
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Meddling Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Disenchant
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Back to Basics
1 Rest in Peace


Match 1: Zombartment-esque Tokens featuring Lingering Souls, Goblin Bombardment, Blood Artist, and Young Pyromancer among others

Game 1: I never draw a single Brainstorm, Dig Through Time, or Force, get a single Stoneforge Mentor, and 1 Swords to Plowshares after close to 15 turns. Discard was pretty bad here. I lose after Blood Artist lands, I'm unable to draw anything that searches for anything, and I scoop to tokens sacrificing themselves before Batterskull's lifegain comes into play.

Game 2: +1 Zealous Persecution, +1 Nihil Spellbomb, +1 Disenchant, -2 Thoughtseize, -1 Cabal Therapy (likely a mistake, should have been -4 Force of Will instead and +1 Back to Basics). He brings in Wear//Tears, Humility, and Pithing Needle among other cards. After Mentor landed and made 3 tokens, Humility came down from my opponent. I quickly assemble an Academy Ruins/Nihil Spellbomb/Batterskull/Jitte/Engineered Explosives lock with 6 lands in play and prevent my opponent from ever doing anything ever again as my 1/1 Batterskulled, Jitted germ token inexorably marches forward and crushes him. I win on the last turn of time.

If there was a game 3, I think I'm heavily favorited. 0-0-1 although the opponent graciously gives me the win.

Match 2: BUG Delver

Game 1: I keep a hand of something like Cabal Therapy/Swords/Stoneforge/Land/Land/Ponder/Fetch. Once again, I don't draw any cantrips after my turn 1 Ponder and die. Maybe should mulliganed here?

Game 2: Board -1 Counterspell, +1 Back to Basics. I draw out his Stifles, Dazes, and Force of Wills in the opening turns losing a Stoneforge activation in the process. Thoughtseize also hits Abrupt Decay, two flipped Delvers get blown up by an EE, and another Abrupt Decay hits a Back to Basics. Then, I drop Mentor and followup with a Swords to Plowshares on my opponent's turn hitting his Goyf. Two turns later, I'm swinging with 4 4/4 monks and a 5/5 Mentor. Mentor absolutely dominated this game.

Game 3: Board -1 Counterspell, +1 Back to Basics. I mull to 6 and my opponent to 4. I open with a blind Cabal Therapy hitting a Brainstorm as time is called. I think I win from here. I give my opponent the win so he can get some cash.

0-0-2 (unofficially)

Match 3: Miracles
Game 1: We only play 1 game and split the maybe $5 total we're getting before talking about how to improve the deck. He's on a Myth Realized Miracles (oh yes) think taking out 2 Entreats and something else. I discard his Counterbalance and Jace in the opening turns. I try to play for EE and keep up Swords to Plowshares as his Myth Realized ticks up. He attacks, I sword, he counterspells. Game.

Game 2: I would have boarded in +1 Clique, +2 Meddling Mage, +1 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Disenchant?

Generally speaking, Miracles seems brutally difficult for this deck. I want to put in another Engineered Explosives in the board for the matchup taking out maybe the Disenchant? Disenchant hits Batterskull, however, and that's a cut I'm hard pressed to make.

Overall, another Divining Top seems spicy although I'm unsure where the cut is. Counterspell is a good target but it's blue and great Force fodder. The creature package as is seemed great all evening. Bizarrely, I never saw a single Dig Through Time in 7 very long, grindy matchups. The ties are from me playing glacially slow- I normally play Lands and am very slow with decks that have Brainstorm. With some faster gameplay, Esper Mentorblade seems like a real thing.

[Alix444]

I dont understand playing SFM and MM. They both come online on turn 3, and start having impacts on turn 4. Also it seems like you want a playset of therapies with MM. Heres what I would play and be greedy. Don't mind the land base its thoughtless.

Creatures - 12
4 DRS
3 Bob
2 Snap
3 MM

Spells - 31
4 Brainstorm
4 G. Probe
4 Ponder

4 FoW
4 Daze
2 Counterspell

4 Swords
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Hymm

Lands - 17
4 Delta
4 Strand
3 Seas
3 Tundra
1 Trop
1 Island
1 Swamp

[hobart]

I dont understand playing SFM and MM. They both come online on turn 3, and start having impacts on turn 4. Also it seems like you want a playset of therapies with MM. Heres what I would play and be greedy. Don't mind the land base its thoughtless.

Creatures - 12
4 DRS
3 Bob
2 Snap
3 MM

Spells - 31
4 Brainstorm
4 G. Probe
4 Ponder

4 FoW
4 Daze
2 Counterspell

4 Swords
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Hymm

Lands - 17
4 Delta
4 Strand
3 Seas
3 Tundra
1 Trop
1 Island
1 Swamp

I would argue that MM comes on line later than turn 3, since it's pretty terrible as a 3 drop tap out play. But that does not invalidate your other points. With DRS/Daze though I'd love to see some wastelands as well.

[Hanni]

I was considering creating a new thread, but decided to necro this one instead. Anyway, it looks like all interest in this archetype died out when DTT was banned; that’s unfortunate.

I’ve been trying to put together a list that maximizes Monastery Mentor for a little while now, and I believe that Esper Mentor Blade is the best shell for Mentor.

I know that people have tried and failed to make Mentor work in Legacy, outside of the Miracles shell. I believe the biggest reason for that is because of Sensei’s Divining Top; a card which should be a 4-of in any Mentor list, with or without Counterbalance.

The most recent attempt that I can recall, post DTT ban, was the Chapin list with Deathrite Shaman. I dislike that list, for multiple reasons, but I won’t go into detail about that right now. However, I will explain why I think that this is the best shell.

First of all, I believe that Mentor works best in a proactive control deck, as opposed to a reactive control deck. Proactive tap-out spells like Cabal Therapy and Counterbalance work better synergistically than hold-open cards like Spell Pierce and Counterspell.

Secondly, Mentor wants a deck that is low-curve, with lots of cheap spells that can be chained together. It is a misconception that Mentor needs a large volume of cards in hand to go off. With the correct cantrip engine, it is entirely possible to “go-off” with little to no cards in hand. I don’t think the deck wants nor needs clunky cards like Painful Truths or Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

Thirdly, Mentor itself is a 3cc threat that ultimately requires additional mana investment. In other words, Mentor is a midrange strategy. For this reason, I believe that a stable manabase is essential. This is another reason why I believe that Mentor has failed outside of the Miracles shell. The deck ideally wants to hit 4 land drops. Playing a healthy amount of fetchlands and basics helps get to that point against decks with Wasteland. I believe that going into 4 colors with Deathrite Shaman is a trap.

Fourthly, I believe that the proactive gameplan benefits from having a large enough density of high impact threats. A powerful line like a turn one Probe + Therapy is much stronger when it is followed up with a high impact threat. Stoneforge Mystic, and to a lesser extent, Counterbalance, are high impact threats.

Without further ado, my list:

U/W/b Mentor Blade

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (8)
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Monastery Mentor

Spells (34)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull

Sideboard (15)
2 Meddling Mage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Path to Exile
1 Disenchant
1 Vindicate
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Perish
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Containment Priest
1 Rest in Peace
1 Back to Basics
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle

About a month ago, I took an unrefined list to my LGS and ended up going 2-1. After that experience, I tuned the list to my current 75, and went 4-0 with it the following week. I then decided to try an experimental list with 4 Predict and 2 Terminus instead of the Stoneforge package the week after that, which felt horrible (ended up 1-1-2). I swapped back to Stoneforge for the week after that, and went 4-0 again.

I realize these results are a tiny sample size, but regardless, the deck feels really strong. Strong enough to necro this thread and post about it, at any rate.

For reference, my matchups for the two 4-0’s were:

Dragon Stompy 2-0
Merfolk 2-0
Miracles 2-1
BUG Delver 2-1

Br Reanimator 2-1
UG Infect 2-1
Dragon Stompy 2-1
Miracles 2-1

[hobart]

I was considering creating a new thread, but decided to necro this one instead. Anyway, it looks like all interest in this archetype died out when DTT was banned; that’s unfortunate.

I’ve been trying to put together a list that maximizes Monastery Mentor for a little while now, and I believe that Esper Mentor Blade is the best shell for Mentor.

I know that people have tried and failed to make Mentor work in Legacy, outside of the Miracles shell. I believe the biggest reason for that is because of Sensei’s Divining Top; a card which should be a 4-of in any Mentor list, with or without Counterbalance.

The most recent attempt that I can recall, post DTT ban, was the Chapin list with Deathrite Shaman. I dislike that list, for multiple reasons, but I won’t go into detail about that right now. However, I will explain why I think that this is the best shell.

First of all, I believe that Mentor works best in a proactive control deck, as opposed to a reactive control deck. Proactive tap-out spells like Cabal Therapy and Counterbalance work better synergistically than hold-open cards like Spell Pierce and Counterspell.

Secondly, Mentor wants a deck that is low-curve, with lots of cheap spells that can be chained together. It is a misconception that Mentor needs a large volume of cards in hand to go off. With the correct cantrip engine, it is entirely possible to “go-off” with little to no cards in hand. I don’t think the deck wants nor needs clunky cards like Painful Truths or Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

Thirdly, Mentor itself is a 3cc threat that ultimately requires additional mana investment. In other words, Mentor is a midrange strategy. For this reason, I believe that a stable manabase is essential. This is another reason why I believe that Mentor has failed outside of the Miracles shell. The deck ideally wants to hit 4 land drops. Playing a healthy amount of fetchlands and basics helps get to that point against decks with Wasteland. I believe that going into 4 colors with Deathrite Shaman is a trap.

Fourthly, I believe that the proactive gameplan benefits from having a large enough density of high impact threats. A powerful line like a turn one Probe + Therapy is much stronger when it is followed up with a high impact threat. Stoneforge Mystic, and to a lesser extent, Counterbalance, are high impact threats.

Without further ado, my list:

U/W/b Mentor Blade

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (8)
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Monastery Mentor

Spells (34)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull

Sideboard (15)
2 Meddling Mage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Path to Exile
1 Disenchant
1 Vindicate
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Perish
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Containment Priest
1 Rest in Peace
1 Back to Basics
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle

About a month ago, I took an unrefined list to my LGS and ended up going 2-1. After that experience, I tuned the list to my current 75, and went 4-0 with it the following week. I then decided to try an experimental list with 4 Predict and 2 Terminus instead of the Stoneforge package the week after that, which felt horrible (ended up 1-1-2). I swapped back to Stoneforge for the week after that, and went 4-0 again.

I realize these results are a tiny sample size, but regardless, the deck feels really strong. Strong enough to necro this thread and post about it, at any rate.

For reference, my matchups for the two 4-0’s were:

Dragon Stompy 2-0
Merfolk 2-0
Miracles 2-1
BUG Delver 2-1

Br Reanimator 2-1
UG Infect 2-1
Dragon Stompy 2-1
Miracles 2-1

Thanks for the thread revival! I'd say that conceptually what you are trying to achieve is exactly what I was going for almost 2 years ago (proactive control, cheap spells, stable manabase). And in that regard I'd like to believe my thread is still appropriate.

Of your match wins, the miracles wins are most impressive. Problems against miracles along with the DTT banning did drive me away from the deck. Counterbalance is obviously great in the matchup, but is there any other secret sauce you got going on that in your list that you like against miracles? I remember back then I struggled to even find good sideboard cards against them.

[Minniehajj]

Thanks for the thread revival! I'd say that conceptually what you are trying to achieve is exactly what I was going for almost 2 years ago (proactive control, cheap spells, stable manabase). And in that regard I'd like to believe my thread is still appropriate.

Of your match wins, the miracles wins are most impressive. Problems against miracles along with the DTT banning did drive me away from the deck. Counterbalance is obviously great in the matchup, but is there any other secret sauce you got going on that in your list that you like against miracles? I remember back then I struggled to even find good sideboard cards against them.

I'm the Miracles player that he's beaten. What usually happens is that I mess up, and I anticipate that I'll be able to compete with an untapped mentor with angels or some such, but the issue that winds up happening is that he goes cantrip crazy and forces my Angels to chump. However, I still have a very good record overall against him, as he only seems to have documented his wins rather than his losses.

The main angles of attack that he utilizes are Probe/Therapy and CounterTop. All of these things are very well equipped to dealing with how slow and durdly Miracles is these days, myself included.

I will make note that he almost exclusively wins because of my misjudgments and not necessarily because of anything regarding the matchup in any way whatsoever. It's a weird deck and I'm not 100% comfortable playing against it, unlike every other Legacy deck.

EDIT: He basically has a lot of stuff that I'm forced to interact with. If I whiff on even one moment of proper interaction, it's really dicey for me. So, to answer your question, the Counterbalance lock is actually a big deal and the deck comes at you from a lot of different angles. That is the gist of it.

[Hanni]

The Miracles matchup is still tough, but I never felt uncomfortable against it.

Probe + Therapy is incredibly powerful against Miracles. I also believe that Stoneforge Mystic dramatically improves the matchup. Basically, I just keep jamming threats that trade 1 for 1 or better with their answers until the Miracles player is unable to find another answer, and then I close the game out.

Most of the time, I feel ahead on cards for most of the game, thanks to Stoneforge, Therapy, Counterbalance, and my lower land count and curve.

One thing to be aware of is that their Counterbalance is better against us than ours is against them. I believe the best way to approach this is to treat Counterbalance like a threat... don't spend a heavy amount of resources protecting it... instead, save your Forces to counter their Counterbalances.

At any rate, I feel like the matchup is slightly in my favor, but my friend on Miracles believes that Miracles is heavily favored, so I honestly don't know. The sample size is too small. I'll post more as I get more experience with it.

EDIT1: My friend is Min, who ninja posted above me. I don't really disagree with anything he said.

EDIT2: I didn't post about my losses like Min said. I've played against him each week that I've piloted this deck. The first week, with the untuned list, I went 1-2 against him in 3 super close games. I also lost 1-2 with the 4 Predict 2 Terminus list, but that list was awful so that loss feels less relevant. My total experience against Miracles still falls in line with my response above.

EDIT3: My ability to mostly blank their postboard plan of of 4 Pyro/Red Blasts is also a huge boon. They still bring them in, as I do have FoW and Counterbalance, but I've won several games where he has had Blasts in hand that did nothing. As far as my board plan goes, I keep it simple. Nothing dramatically changes postboard, other than bringing in answers to Entreat and Counterbalance.

[Minniehajj]

The Miracles matchup is still tough, but I never felt uncomfortable against it.

Probe + Therapy is incredibly powerful against Miracles. I also believe that Stoneforge Mystic dramatically improves the matchup. Basically, I just keep jamming threats that trade 1 for 1 or better with their answers until the Miracles player is unable to find another answer, and then I close the game out.

Most of the time, I feel ahead on cards for most of the game, thanks to Stoneforge, Therapy, Counterbalance, and my lower land count and curve.

One thing to be aware of is that their Counterbalance is better against us than ours is against them. I believe the best way to approach this is to treat Counterbalance like a threat... don't spend a heavy amount of resources protecting it... instead, save your Forces to counter their Counterbalances.

At any rate, I feel like the matchup is slightly in my favor, but my friend on Miracles believes that Miracles is heavily favored, so I honestly don't know. The sample size is too small. I'll post more as I get more experience with it.

EDIT1: My friend is Min, who ninja posted above me. I don't really disagree with anything he said.

EDIT2: I didn't post about my losses like Min said. I've played against him each week that I've piloted this deck. The first week, with the untuned list, I went 1-2 against him in 3 super close games. I also lost 1-2 with the 4 Predict 2 Terminus list, but that list was awful so that loss feels less relevant. My total experience against Miracles still falls in line with my response above.

EDIT3: My ability to mostly blank their postboard plan of of 4 Pyro/Red Blasts is also a huge boon. They still bring them in, as I do have FoW and Counterbalance, but I've won several games where he has had Blasts in hand that did nothing. As far as my board plan goes, I keep it simple. Nothing dramatically changes postboard, other than bringing in answers to Entreat and Counterbalance.

FWIW I didn't actually die with blasts in hand =P I have never actually had a Blast early on when I needed it :(

[Hanni]

Let me rephrase. There have been games where you have had Blasts (that I saw from Probe or Therapy) that did not have any impact on the game, or the impact was minimal.

[TheArchitect]

Thanks for the revival of this thread. I have tested this archtype a ton in the dig era, but the banning killed the deck for me for a while. I also recently tried to make it work again. My approach is different though. I agree that the 4c deathrite versions are an abomination, but I am also not a fan of CB and top in this deck. Once you add CB/Top I have always felt like the deck becomes basically just Miracles that's better against combo, and worse against everything else. I am also not a big fan of stoneforge here. I do like that it can be a 2 drop threat. But if mystic dies, the equipment is near useless since there are no other little creatures to pick it up.

In my experience the miracles matchup is about 45-55 in miracles favor. This archtype attacks at some awkward angles, but their CB is very strong and hard to interact with

Like I said my approach is much different, more like esper stoneblade, but cut the stonblade part for mentors. This is list I have been playing lately on Cockatrice and am planning to paly at the SCG Worcester 5k after I scrub out of the main event while playing miracles:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
//20 lands

1 Baleful Strix
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Council's Judgment
1 Counterspell
1 Esper Charm
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Ponder
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Toxic Deluge

//Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Meddling Mage
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Serenity
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Perish

[Hanni]

I disagree with your assessment of Stoneforge. If Mystic dies, the Batterskull is still a card, whether you play another Mystic to be able to cheat it out, Brainstorm it away, or hardcast it.

I've won games against Miracles where I equip a Jitte to a Stoneforge after my opponent has killed several other threats, including Wear//Tear on my Batterskull, and Jitte closes the game out. 8 creatures may seem creature light for equips on paper, but it works out just fine in practice. I actually won one of my Infect games due to equipping Jitte to a monk token.

If nothing else, I think Stoneforge is much better than Gurmag, especially against Miracles.

As far as CB/Top is concerned, I can respect not wanting to maindeck CB, but it definitely takes away a powerful tool in a great deal of matchups, from Lands to Burn to Storm to you name it. However, Top is what makes the deck. You're running a suboptimal Mentor deck if it doesn't include 4 Top. Of course, once you're on 4 Top, you should have some amount of CB in the 75.

I also disagree that CB/Top makes this deck a worse Miracles deck. CB/Top is stronger in Miracles, for sure, but it still does alot if work here. Regardless, the deck differs dramatically from Miracles. I have yet to feel like this deck is a strictly worse deck. There are certainly matchups that are worse for me than they are for Miracles, but the reverse is true as well.

I also dislike JTMS right now with all of the Blasts floating around, but that's another discussion altogether.

At any rate, if you get a chance, try out my build before you dismiss it completely.

[Hanni]

Scrubbed put at my LGS tonight, 1-3. My matchups:

Burn 1-2
Miracles 0-2
Br Reanimator 1-2
Turbo Depths 2-1

The Turbo Depths matchup was not actually part of the event (I had a bye, and played against someone who had never played the deck before).

It just didn't feel like my night this week. Of the 8 sanctioned games I played tonight, I had to mulligan 6 out of 8 of them. I had to mulligan to 5 twice. The hands were either all lands or no lands, it felt bad. I also made some misplays, but live and learn.

In the Miracles matchup, in game 1 I mulled to a mediocre 6, he had a turn 2 Counterbalance that I didn't have an answer for, and a turn 3 Top. I put up a good fight, slipped several threats through, but he had removal for them.

G2 I kept a really shaky hand that panned out. I feel like I lost this one due to misplays, as I had an early CounterTop lock, but I spent a FoW on a Counterbalance which he played as bait (it wasn't relevant at the time), and he followed up with a Jace I didn't have an answer for. I flooded super hard, hitting a land drop every turn for the first 8 turns, and shuffled a billion times with Top only to find more lands and other crap. I didn't find my first creature until turn 7 or 8. I feel like the key to winning this matchup is to keep jamming threats... not seeing a creature until turn 8 is almost certainly a loss.

However, he did have a Council's Judgement that I didn't have an answer for, assembled his own CounterTop, and had Entreat on top to deal with my Vindicate. Ultimately, I believe this happened as a result of burning my FoW on his Counterbalance earlier.

Oh well, a bad beat night is a bad beat night. I still believe this deck is extremely strong, and will continue to play with it and hopefully get better at it.