[SCD] Chains of Mephistopheles

[Begle1]

I can't wrap my head around what this card really does in a typical Legacy match.

So it shuts down multiple-card draw if the opponent has no cards in hand, or turns it into looting otherwise... But they still get at least one new card, it has no interaction with "place cards into your hand" effects and Brainstorm can be cast in response to it.

Are there really any match-ups where it's a killer card? Or is the price all because of EDH and people seeing it as anti-Treasure Cruise tech?

[Undomian]

The price of that card is because it's a Legends rare that sees occasional sideboard play. Decks like Jund use it against Brainstorm decks to punish those deck's reliance on those kinds of cards. Even the rares from that set that don't see any play are expensive due to their scarcity, though. Hell, I had to dish out $20 for a Tetsuo Umezawa for my Tiny Leaders deck, and I don't think that card has been played anywhere else but that format.

[FoolofaTook]

It's an answer for lists that would otherwise have few or no good options to handle massive card draw/cantrip engines. It's not worth the price you pay for it and it's not really that good a card but for Jund and a few other lists it's better than nothing.

If you've ever had a handful of blue draw when the opponent put a Spirit of the Labyrinth in play you'll understand the basic effect.

[rlesko]

The price is spiking a little bit lately and I'm not sure why since you would expect the opposite after a TC ban.

It is very powerful in the right match ups. Remember, a looting effect is card disadvantage.

[FoolofaTook]

The price is spiking a little bit lately and I'm not sure why since you would expect the opposite after a TC ban.

It is very powerful in the right match ups. Remember, a looting effect is card disadvantage.

A looting effect is only card disadvantage when you play a spell to make it happen. The only actual card disadvantage in Chains of Mephistopheles happens when you play it. At least in the current builds. If you can get the opponent to draw multiple cards with 2 of them in play, then it's a wicked effect but that's highly conditional.

Chains wasn't even really good in the old meta when people tried to play 4 of them to get that effect in play. Having to play Chains yourself is a card out of your hand for no immediate effect in most cases.

[rufus]

...

Chains wasn't even really good in the old meta when people tried to play 4 of them to get that effect in play. Having to play Chains yourself is a card out of your hand for no immediate effect in most cases.

Edge of Autumn,Gitaxian Probe, and Street Wraith could be useful follow-up effects in the right deck. Still bad though.

[Nuke is Good]

It never really did anything for me when I was running it in Jund. 90% of the time it was countered and the other times I had it in my hand Sylvan Library was already in play.

Most of the time people countered it because, no one wanted to read that flavor text.

[death]

You mean card text because Chains doesn't have any flavor text.

[Holiday]

http://imgur.com/UBs6lD9

I can't take credit for this, but this image helped me understand this card better.

[death]

http://i.imgur.com/UBs6lD9.jpg

Fixed.

[Meekrab]

The price is spiking a little bit lately and I'm not sure why since you would expect the opposite after a TC ban.

It is very powerful in the right match ups. Remember, a looting effect is card disadvantage.
Only if the card you discard is relevant to the game state. A fourth land in a Delver deck rarely is, for example.

[Holiday]

Thanks, Death.

[tescrin]

Only if the card you discard is relevant to the game state. A fourth land in a Delver deck rarely is, for example.

That's not true. Card advantage is only a measure of the cards in each person's hand/board state, not a measure of their usefulness. What you're saying is equivalent to saying that Treasure Cruise has less card advantage than Dig Through Time because DTT pushes up to 5 bad cards away; while cruise just draws them. It's akin to saying that letting someone draw an extra land with Bob isn't relevant, while forgetting it means their actual draw is better than it would have been.



As an aside, I meant to post something in here about the price and use:
-Uses are everywhere but it's mediocre since it doesn't affect board state. It helps lock out games you're ahead in, but is mostly win more
-SotL's effect is better, but the card is worse because it's so easy to remove and very easy to get 2-for-1'd

The price is spiking because:
-It's tax season (USA)
-It won't be reprinted (so it's a safe investment)
-The price only really goes up; just like duals.

Look at Tabernacle. Last year I could've gotten italian versions for $450. Now good quality are $600+. It's not like Lands is doing better than it was (though it did have that recent double-placing.)

[rlesko]

A looting effect is only card disadvantage when you play a spell to make it happen. The only actual card disadvantage in Chains of Mephistopheles happens when you play it. At least in the current builds. If you can get the opponent to draw multiple cards with 2 of them in play, then it's a wicked effect but that's highly conditional.

Chains wasn't even really good in the old meta when people tried to play 4 of them to get that effect in play. Having to play Chains yourself is a card out of your hand for no immediate effect in most cases.

Um, obviously? How else are we drawing cards without casting spells?

[Anen]

Um, obviously? How else are we drawing cards without casting spells?

Jace? (among hundred of others)

[rlesko]

Jace? (among hundred of others)

Jace, Top, Sylvan. I'll wait for the 97 other Legacy relevant cards.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Horizon Canopy, Tranquil Thicket, Sofi, Cephalid coliseum 93 more to go!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

93 more to go!
Jayemdae Tome.
Oh, I read it "93/94 way to go", sorry.


The prices of these cards are insane. I remember selling Moat back in the not-so-far-past and it was umm... 20% of what I had been given today? What's wrong with people, do they not eat? I guess, yeah, if you want to play TL and there's no other Grixis leader than Tetsuo, you go with him and swallow the fact that it's 20 USD worth of cardboard. But what about the 4 Tabernacles lists? Why Invoke Prejudice costs so much when it's not even good? I do understand the basics of collectible-crap-hobbies, but the price cannot be determined solely by scarcity, it must have a lot to do with playability, lest we'd be paying vulgar amount of money for the fetches from the World Championship decks; yet we're not. Speaking of that, two thngs come to my mind: I need to buy as many gold-bordered Heaths as possible to support the many GW decks I plan to build, and there's a question how much would IP cost if it would have been a useful card.
Also, the old illustrations were so interesting, people like Guay, Hoover, McNeill, RKF, Tucker, they all had their distinct style, one that is hard to see in the flood of nowadays undistinguishable conveyor-produced art. Is that the most important reason for some price tags sticked to crap like the mentioned IP (or any other wanna-be rares) that in terms of playability stand below Sylvan Library?

[death]

The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Chains of Mephistopheles, Moat, Nether Void, The Abyss

I was toying with the idea of trading my Tabernacle for 2 Chains of Mephistopheles but nah, fuck that. Chains doesn't win me the game or prevent me from losing than for example Crop Rotation > Tabernacle. In Pox, Sinkhole + Smallpox + Nether Void = opponent stops playing spells. Moat and The Abyss aren't that effective anymore and they compete with Jace TMS for CMC 4 slot in Uw/Ub(x) control decks, guess which card wins? Chains of Mephistopheles really is just an annoying effect. It is for weak decks afraid of losing to a perfect Brainstorm and without Treasure Cruise I don't expect an increase in demand. Tabernacle OTOH is just nuts, its effect on the game state is quite huge (YP, MM, EtW?) and at the cost of just a land drop it's quite cheap and is tutorable.

If you still have Legends lying around get rid of them now and do yourself a favor get a Tabernacle. I got mine for $175 back in 2011 when it was a $250 card. Would I need a second Tabernacle? Nope, Crop Rotation is still in the format.

[death]

Anyone else tinkered with the card, like in B/G Crop Rotation shell namely loam/hexdepths/12-post?

I'd like to hear some of the merits before I completely toss out the idea.

[apple713]

Anyone else tinkered with the card, like in B/G Crop Rotation shell namely loam/hexdepths/12-post?

I'd like to hear some of the merits before I completely toss out the idea.

the card is just bad. it doesn't do anything by itself. to make it useful you have to pack the deck full of crap. then you are looking at running a really bad 2 card combo that doesn't win you the game.

[jungleman3955]

It's decent in a deck like jund where you heavily attack their hand and apply pressure on the board. Aside from that, I agree that it's not great.

[FoolofaTook]

The only list I've ever seen Chains be really good in was a BW9 artifact list back in the day that used to run Howling Mines and Chains as a 4-of each and 4 Winter Orbs and 2 Relic Barriers and 2 Icy Manipulators and Land Tax and Armageddon and Balance. It had the power 9 also and it basically locked you down really quickly with Howling Mines and Winter Orbs both tappable to turn off their effect when it would hurt you and when it would help the opponent. The win-con was The Rack and it was the equivalent of Death and Taxes in the Legacy meta today. It was inconsistent but extremely powerful.