Magic Origins

[TsumiBand]

Eh, :b::b: and two creatures? Considering we already have Ichorid , Bloodghast & Nether Spirit , not really a contender.

Ehhhhh but dat Ichorid doe. I would submit that they're in different wheelhouses. Ichorid always self-sacs at EOT, and can only return during your upkeep. This new guy can return at any time, so I believe it would be more tailored to a Black control approach -- not that one necessarily exists in Legacy, but if it did it would prefer this guy to Ichorid since it could theoretically be a one-time investment that kills over a few turns, instead of Ichorid's conditional return to the battlefield.

It's a fair control creature for a deck that doesn't exist, which probably means it doesn't matter ever. But no matter, it's cool as shit, I'll take 7

[Cire]

Ehhhhh but dat Ichorid doe. I would submit that they're in different wheelhouses. Ichorid always self-sacs at EOT, and can only return during your upkeep. This new guy can return at any time, so I believe it would be more tailored to a Black control approach -- not that one necessarily exists in Legacy, but if it did it would prefer this guy to Ichorid since it could theoretically be a one-time investment that kills over a few turns, instead of Ichorid's conditional return to the battlefield.

It's a fair control creature for a deck that doesn't exist, which probably means it doesn't matter ever. But no matter, it's cool as shit, I'll take 7

The Gate + Small Pox + This?

Edit:

Hangarback Walker {X}{X}
Artifact Creature — Construct
Hangarback Walker enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters on it.
When Hangarback Walker dies, put a 1/1 colorless Thopter artifact creature token with flying onto the battlefield for each +1/+1 counter on Hangarback Walker.
{1},{T}: Put a +1/+1 counter on Hangarback Walker.
0/0

How many thopter token generators are in this set?! :eek:

[Mr.C]

Yeah, that is an issue. I agree. I still think it is much better though. You just can't call this a wincon. You had to play Lightning Bolts because the engine took so long to set up, and I bet you no longer have to. That's a big deal. I bet you could make the deck run at a high percentage of capacity with two red sources - just enough for Devastating Dreams. You could probably splash a third color in also since you can keep the mana so much easier now. With Land Tax, you can fairly well have just one basic and call the color supported. The parfait guys will probably be talking about this more, but Parfait looks nothing like this atm.

Sunglasses of Urza ftw.

[Barook]

Evolutionary Leap seems interesting, although they made it too save. They're obviously trying to cash in on another Survival variant.

As already pointed out, it seems decent with token generators. It could also be interesting with recurring creatures, namely in some kind of Zombardment shell. Probably cut the white and abuse Gravecrawler, Bloodghast, Young Pyromancer and Bitterblossom to your heart's content. In that kind of deck, it should a serious CA engine.

It also turns spot removal into card disadvantage if you have the mana open.

I like Animist's Awakening, although it might be iffy to put it into existing shells like Lands or 12-Post.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I hope someone finds a nice modern combo with hangarback walker. Protean hulk into 4 disciple of the vault, 4 hangarback walker + 2CMC worth of something else is getting close.

Probably just worse than body double shenanigans though.

[phonics]

It's worth noting that the above isn't necessarily a terrible thing.

Yeah, but lets be real if it was blue it would have been broken.

[Barook]

I wonder how well Evolutionary Leap would fit into Nic Fit. It's another sac outlet (saccing Explorer into another Explorer for a massive mana explosion sounds like fun) and it could help you to sift further through your deck alongside GSZ. It doesn't play too well with Deed, though.

[Lemnear]

I wonder how well Evolutionary Leap would fit into Nic Fit. It's another sac outlet (saccing Explorer into another Explorer for a massive mana explosion sounds like fun) and it could help you to sift further through your deck alongside GSZ. It doesn't play too well with Deed, though.

Explorer & Co. sounds interresting, especially if you get also a fatty like Siege Rhino/Thragtusk or more Explorers into your hand that way. The point is that you basically render opposing removal useless.

[iamajellydonut]

I wonder how well Evolutionary Leap would fit into Nic Fit. It's another sac outlet (saccing Explorer into another Explorer for a massive mana explosion sounds like fun) and it could help you to sift further through your deck alongside GSZ.

I just vomited a little. Holy shit. That's absurd.

[Lemnear]

I just vomited a little. Holy shit. That's absurd.

Yeah, Sac Explorer, get two Forests, reveal cards and potentially hit the next Explorer, rinse and repeat with the two untapped Forests...

[iamajellydonut]

Yeah, Sac Explorer, get two Forests, reveal cards and potentially hit the next Explorer, rinse and repeat with the two untapped Forests...

I think the only major danger is running into a Dryad Arbor.

[Lemnear]

I think the only major danger is running into a Dryad Arbor.

May NOT run those then?

[iamajellydonut]

May NOT run those then?

Yeah, but then you can't turn your unwanted fetchlands into cash!

[Barook]

I think the only major danger is running into a Dryad Arbor.
Nic Fit hasn't run those since forever.

Might be interesting in builds that are also featuring Academy Rector.

I think people should stop looking down on it because it seems like shitty Survival replacement #23423. This thing is a different kind of beast. As an engine, it could very well be viable in the right deck. Blanking spot removal more or less is just an added bonus.

[Lemnear]

Yeah, but then you can't turn your unwanted fetchlands into cash!

Guess you are right. You can still convert the Dryad Arbor once again if you get it into your hand with Leap. Bearable if you can create a higher density of creatures to sacrifice in the deck by running Arbor(s) and Fetchlands

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Guess you are right. You can still convert the Dryad Arbor once again if you get it into your hand with Leap. Bearable if you can create a higher density of creatures to sacrifice in the deck by running Arbor(s) and Fetchlands

If you also run GSZ you want Dryad Arbor for the option to turn 1 ramp.

[maharis]

I could see testing it in nic fit. Trouble is playing VetEx into this into they swords VetEx or storm off or derp & tell or decay the enchantment....

[Crimhead]

Pretty cool if Nic Fit makes a comeback!

[CutthroatCasual]

Pretty cool if Nic Fit makes a comeback!

A deck has to have been successful for it to make a comeback.

[Rishadan]

A deck has to have been successful for it to make a comeback.

For a cutthroat, that was a little too close to the throat there.

[Blastoderm]

A deck has to have been successful for it to make a comeback.

It was extremely successfull during the RUG/Maverick days. It was basically impossible to lose vs those decks. Derp and Tell / Miracles didn't exist and storm wasn't that popular.

[rufus]

[Evolutionary Leap] has entirely unrelated functionality to either. It's just sheer fucking value out of sacrificing chaff.

Along with death triggers, one could use it with creatures that didn't come into play from the hand, ones that would leave anyway, or ones that will return on their own.

Veteran Explorer notwithstanding, I'm not sure how well legacy decks can manage the mana in the activation cost.

Edit:
It does make Earthcraft a bit more dangerous to unban.
You could chain druids with Seton, Krosan Protector. (Reedit - but not as well as I thought.)

[Darkenslight]

Some more spoilers are up - the biggest one:

Elvish Winnower :3: :b: :b:
Creature - Elf assassin (r)
Menace
When ~ ETB, destroy target non-Elf cretaure whose power and toughness aren't equal.
4/3

Not likely to see play anywhere but Standard, but it's an amusing Goyf hoser.

[Vicar in a tutu]

http://i.imgur.com/80lWOLs.jpg

Enchantments! (I wish it had hexproof or that it was pushed a little more so that enchantress could have used it.)

[Crimhead]

http://i.imgur.com/80lWOLs.jpg

Enchantments! (I wish it had hexproof or that it was pushed a little more so that enchantress could have used it.)Or if it simply were not a creature. :( I think WotC aren't too big on enchantments.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Even if it protected itself, it wouldn't be that great in Legacy Enchantress. The deck already produces a ton of mana and when "going off", its biggest problem isn't paying colorless (or White) mana (thanks Serra's Sanctum), but Green mana costs. This card does nothing to power out Growths, Groves, and Sprawls nor any of the non-Enchantment cards that one might be running.

If it had an Edgewalker-style effect, reducing Green mana costs, then it might merit testing. EDIT: Who am I kidding...that would be nuts. Probably the reason we don't see those effects often.

Being a 2/2 also makes it highly unappealing in Modern, where it won't stick around to fuel out pillow-fort vomits into Enduring Ideal or the new Opalescence-like.

Seems like a cute, nifty casual/EDH staple at best, maybe a Standard card for the short duration Theros block and Origins are concurrently legal.

[Darkenslight]

http://i.imgur.com/80lWOLs.jpg

Enchantments! (I wish it had hexproof or that it was pushed a little more so that enchantress could have used it.)

So far, Origins is almost as good as Theros and Urza's blocks for enchantments.

[Gheizen64]

There's a draw 12, gain 12 life for 5gg spell for twelvepost lol

[TheArchitect]

I think the only major danger is running into a Dryad Arbor.

As others have said, getting a land that gets destroyed by your deeds, or makes lightning bolt anything but a dead card, made arbor not worth running in nic fit.


A deck has to have been successful for it to make a comeback.

It was one of the top decks in the format in the RUG, esper, maverick days since all three of those decks were excellent matchups.

[Lemnear]

I'm sure NicFit needs to get rid of Deed in any case as a cardadvantage tool and equalizer if it opt to run Leap which also creates cardadvantage but enables you to top opposing permanents rather than destroying those.

[Finn]

You guys should all look again at Abbot of Kher Keep. That card looks to me like a winner in Burn or similar pure aggro. There is nothing whatsoever in red that has card advantage as good and as cheap.

Here, look:

Abbot of Keral Keep
1 R
Creature - Human Monk
Prowess
When Abbot of Keral Keep enters the battlefield, exile the top card of your library. Until end of turn, you may play that card.
2/1

[Lemnear]

You guys should all look again at Abbot of Kher Keep. That card looks to me like a winner in Burn or similar pure aggro. There is nothing whatsoever in red that has card advantage as good and as cheap.

Here, look:

Abbot of Keral Keep
1 R
Creature - Human Monk
Prowess
When Abbot of Keral Keep enters the battlefield, exile the top card of your library. Until end of turn, you may play that card.
2/1

No haste is a killer for this card. You also need at least 3 mana to gain cardadvantage with burn

[rufus]

No haste is a killer for this card. You also need at least 3 mana to gain cardadvantage with burn

You can play lands that are exiled (or Fireblast) so it could be used if there's some kind of topdeck knowledge in play. Not the best fit for conventional burn decks though.

[kirkusjones]

http://cdn.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Magmatic-Insight.png
This seems cool with life from the loam.

[wcm8]

http://cdn.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Magmatic-Insight.png
This seems cool with life from the loam.

I can imagine a URx Delver deck playing this card as well. Seems quite powerful in a deck that doesn't really need many lands beyond the second. Jund, RG Lands and similar decks will likely enjoy it as form of card filter/advantage.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

I can imagine a URx Delver deck playing this card as well. Seems quite powerful in a deck that doesn't really need many lands beyond the second. Jund, RG Lands and similar decks will likely enjoy it as form of card filter/advantage.

A land light hand with this would suck! A topdeck of this without a land too! You really want your cantrips to help in every stage of the game...

[Rishadan]

I'm sure NicFit needs to get rid of Deed in any case as a cardadvantage tool and equalizer if it opt to run Leap which also creates cardadvantage but enables you to top opposing permanents rather than destroying those.

If there is one thing that nic fit wants to keep, it's the Deeds. No ifs, ands, or buts.

[wcm8]

A land light hand with this would suck! A topdeck of this without a land too! You really want your cantrips to help in every stage of the game...

I am thinking a URx Delver deck would play 2-3 copies, unless 4 somehow ends up being correct.

In tandem with Daze, it wouldn't be too difficult to have this enabled as you enter the midgame, where a virtual Draw 2 for 1 is powerful.

A tempo deck *could* simply run 20 Lands instead of the usual 18-19 in order to A) minimize mulligans and increase likelihood of on-time land drops, and B) further enable playing 3-4 copies of MI.

I am not sure which variation of URx would be the ideal configuration. Green benefits because it fuels Mongoose and Goyf while also providing access to Loam; straight UR would love to refill its hand with more Burn to close out the game (and cheap cantrips are very effective with Swiftspear and Pyromancer); White is able to play more of a midrange game thanks to the staying power of SFM, TNN, CJudgement, universal removal, etc. and would benefit from a midgame refueling Spell; and Grixis lists are fairly similar to straight UR with the addition of having Delve creatures (perhaps enabling additional copies of Angler and/or Tasigur).

Beyond Delver decks, combo decks and perhaps even UWr Miracles might consider playing this card. It is admittedly less powerful (and Blue) than DTT, but that card might end up being banned.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

If there is one thing that nic fit wants to keep, it's the Deeds. No ifs, ands, or buts.Eh, pod builds often trim them already and if there is another great reason to not run them it's definitely a justifiable cut. There has to be some configuration of toxic deluge, maelstrom pulse, and decay that is playable without deed.

The new red draw spell is awesome too. I'm going to be playing it in modern loam pox for sure.

[rufus]

http://cdn.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Magmatic-Insight.png
This seems cool with life from the loam.

Or land tax, or storm combo decks that draw cards or Alhammarret's Archive.

[Cire]

Or land tax, or storm combo decks that draw cards or Alhammarret's Archive.

The hypothetical Land Tax + Molten Vortex LFTL deck is looking better and better

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Wow with land tax this seems pretty good. You dont have to play the slow scroll rack to turn lands into gas!
And yep with daze this seems ok... maybe uwr? Daze also helps to trigger the tax!

[Richard Cheese]

Eh, pod builds often trim them already and if there is another great reason to not run them it's definitely a justifiable cut. There has to be some configuration of toxic deluge, maelstrom pulse, and decay that is playable without deed.

The new red draw spell is awesome too. I'm going to be playing it in modern loam pox for sure.

I don't think you really have to cut Deed to run it. An early activation or two could be a huge value in that deck, and blowing up your own stuff has always been a possibility with Deed.

I think the bigger problem is how many and what you replace. It's definitely something you'd rather see early than late...or alternatively how do you maximize the mid/late game value?

[Holiday]

I'm not sold Magmatic Insight. Unless you want the land in your graveyard this card might as well read "R, Sorcery. Draw one card." It doesn't produce card advantage. I know we're hypothetically playing this in decks with Land Tax or Loam where you'll have a lot of land in your hand. Wouldn't you be better off holding that land and using it to scroll rack or fling it for 2 damage with Molten Vortex?

Instead you'd be better off playing a card that actually does something productive instead of netting you 0 cards. It's not a cantrip because cantrips have some other beneficial effect and then replace themselves. So unless your deck needs to get land in the GY this card isn't very useful.

[Lemnear]

I don't think you really have to cut Deed to run it. An early activation or two could be a huge value in that deck, and blowing up your own stuff has always been a possibility with Deed.

I think the bigger problem is how many and what you replace. It's definitely something you'd rather see early than late...or alternatively how do you maximize the mid/late game value?

Why would you blow things up anymore if you can drop Siege Rhinos in the face of Delver and shit? Sweeping was good to gain time till you topdeck a fatty or GSZ or SDT, but with Leap that's no longer an issue

[GenghisTom]

There's so many cube cards in this set my head's about to burst.
I don't know how I'm gonna make room...

Magmatic Insight is the one I'm most excited about, especially at the possible revival of Loam strategies outside of Lands.
I may even play in my first modern tourney with a deck like this (although not having cycle lands does suck)

[Gheizen64]

Magmatic Insight seems an actually good card. Compare to compulsive research, this is slightly worse but for 2 less mana. Loam decks surely want this, as stated, but i think it can find space somewhere else too.

EDIT: the hidden bonus of Magmatic insight is that if you run a couple more lands in your lists, you'll be much less likely to get manascrewed and you can use this as a pseudo-brainstorm, dumping extra lands for chaff. Think of how RDW used 24 lands as fuel for Lavamancers and to ensure to get that 3 mana point to cast pillages consistently. I feel like i'm gonna test this card a lot.

[GenghisTom]

I'm not sold Magmatic Insight. Unless you want the land in your graveyard this card might as well read "R, Sorcery. Draw one card." It doesn't produce card advantage. I know we're hypothetically playing this in decks with Land Tax or Loam where you'll have a lot of land in your hand. Wouldn't you be better off holding that land and using it to scroll rack or fling it for 2 damage with Molten Vortex?

Instead you'd be better off playing a card that actually does something productive instead of netting you 0 cards. It's not a cantrip because cantrips have some other beneficial effect and then replace themselves. So unless your deck needs to get land in the GY this card isn't very useful.

The thing is though, 60 cards is the minimum deck size and you need to fill up that space either with redundancy or draw engines. You don't always draw the nut hand with mox, land tax, loam, scroll rack etc.
As a 4-off this adds extra movement in a deck that needs certain pieces set up in order to win.

That being said, since Legacy already has Gamble and cycle lands I don't think this will make an impact.

Modern, however, which lacks both of those AND has no deathrite shaman to worry about, is the better candidate for a revival of loam strategies (revival... were they ever a thing in that format in the first place?)

[rufus]

...
That being said, since Legacy already has Gamble and cycle lands I don't think this will make an impact.
...
Don't forget Brainstorm.

[MGB]

Remember that Magmatic Insight is uncastable if you don't have lands in your hand.

So it's basically an epically bad topdeck in a land-light deck.

[Gheizen64]

Remember that Magmatic Insight is uncastable if you don't have lands in your hand.

So it's basically an epically bad topdeck in a land-light deck.

That's why u always keep a land in hand, for this and Cursed Scroll.

EDIT: and obv to fake a removal spell.

[Scott]

I'm not sure what the MTG set equivalent of Blood on the Tracks is, but this set is looking like it deserves "best Dylan album since Blood on the Tracks" kind of praise.

[Finn]

Magmatic Insight is a terrible card.

And remember that I told you so when you discover that Abbot of Keral Keep is expensive and you did not pick any up early.

[Richard Cheese]

Why would you blow things up anymore if you can drop Siege Rhinos in the face of Delver and shit? Sweeping was good to gain time till you topdeck a fatty or GSZ or SDT, but with Leap that's no longer an issue

Deed still hits more than just creatures, but with Decay around you may be right. It was a lot better when Maverick was a DTB, since you could deal with the equipment, the Knight, and all the little support guys at the same time. Still pretty good against D&T for those reasons, but Explorer invalidates practically half of that deck.

[Infinitium]

I'm not sure what the MTG set equivalent of Blood on the Tracks is, but this set is looking like it deserves "best Dylan album since Blood on the Tracks" kind of praise.

This set looks like the best standalone set since Ravnica: City of Guilds. Plenty of fringe playable cards with no obvious preexisting analogues.

Edit: Wait, Time Spiral was the best set since Ravnica. God that was such a clutch standard. Anyhow set is good. I approve.

[Barook]

I agree the set is looking pretty good, especially after the underwhelming start. Lots of interesting cards.

My personal favorite is probably Evolutionary Leap. So much potential. Speaking of Leap, how about token producers and Gaea's Cradle?

[sjmcc13]

Tragic Arrogance
3WW
Sorcery
For each player, you choose from among the permanents that player controls an artifact, a creature, an enchantment, and a planeswalker. Then each player sacrifices all other nonland permanents he or she controls.

Anyway to actually cast this in Legacy?

[firebadmattgood]

It's a more expensive cataclysm that doesn't kill planeswalkers.

[MGB]

You guys should all look again at Abbot of Kher Keep. That card looks to me like a winner in Burn or similar pure aggro. There is nothing whatsoever in red that has card advantage as good and as cheap.

Here, look:

Abbot of Keral Keep
1 R
Creature - Human Monk
Prowess
When Abbot of Keral Keep enters the battlefield, exile the top card of your library. Until end of turn, you may play that card.
2/1

I mean, essentially it's a 2/1 that can grow bigger that cantrips, all for only two mana.

Definitely going to be a Type 2 powerhouse and maybe more.

[Amon Amarth]

This set looks like the best standalone set since Ravnica: City of Guilds. Plenty of fringe playable cards with no obvious preexisting analogues.

Edit: Wait, Time Spiral was the best set since Ravnica. God that was such a clutch standard. Anyhow set is good. I approve.

Super agree. I like the mechanics, love the reprints, dig the flavor and it looks a ton of fun to draft! They reprinted Goblin Piledriver, awesome! A ton of cool looking elves and a Sylvan Messenger reprint too. And there are really pushed cards like Day's Undoing and Dark Petition. Even something like Goblin Glory Chaser is freaking awesome, best one-drop this side of Goblin Guide. So good.

[Mr. Safety]

Eh, pod builds often trim them already and if there is another great reason to not run them it's definitely a justifiable cut. There has to be some configuration of toxic deluge, maelstrom pulse, and decay that is playable without deed.

The new red draw spell is awesome too. I'm going to be playing it in modern loam pox for sure.

Replacing Faithless looting possibly? Its a way to depend slightly less on graveyard synergy I guess. If it were an instant to save loam it would be infinitely better.

[sjmcc13]

It's a more expensive cataclysm that doesn't kill planeswalkers.

True, but unlike Cataclysm, they do not choose which card they keep from each type, so they get the worst option for each category, while you get your best...

So you get plays like Keep the 1/1 elemental, sac you pyromancer and delver, I will keep my gofy and sac the rest...

[mrjumbo03]

Tragic Arrogance
3WW
Sorcery
For each player, you choose from among the permanents that player controls an artifact, a creature, an enchantment, and a planeswalker. Then each player sacrifices all other nonland permanents he or she controls.

Anyway to actually cast this in Legacy?

Doesn't hit lands though which was such a huge plus for Cataclysm.

[cheerios]

Red draw spell:

http://www.cardkingdom.com/media/images/products/standard/201770_1.jpg

[Dice_Box]

It's very conditional in a format that has a habit of running on the leanest mana margins it can. I am happy it exists but I feel it's unlikely to do much.

[swoop]

How is this card different to the one we're already talking about?

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

[Di]

It's not. If there's anything to be learned during spoiler season, it's that people do not actually read the thread they are posting in and throw the same damn card in it without realizing it's already been a discussion topic for the last two pages.

[testing32]

I know it's spoiler season and everyone is excited but so far I see one legacy playable: Dark Petition.

Anyone that is thinking Nic Fit is "coming back" or Tezzerator will be good, due to some of these cards, is fooling themselves.

[aluisiocsantos]

http://cdn.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Magmatic-Insight.png
This seems cool with life from the loam.

In LED Dredge this is better than Faithless perhaps?

[Echelon]

In LED Dredge this is better than Faithless perhaps?

B/c this one works so much better with LED..? Yeah, LED Dredge would probably be thrilled to get rid of "crack LED, discard hand, flashback Looting, dredge twice".

You can't even use it to discard dredgers stuck in your hand, another thing Looting does do.

[QBChaz]

In LED Dredge this is better than Faithless perhaps?

Have you ever flashed back Looting using LED mana?

[aluisiocsantos]

Sure, that's the good part about Faithless, but this one allows more consistent play? Not having to flush the hand at once, for example.. post board should be better, I think, where you gotta keep some answers to hate.

[Dice_Box]

I have forgotten, what is the standard land count in Dredge? Was it 12, with 4 of them taping for Blue only? So a card that makes you discard land to cast it... how useful would that be in a deck with 12 lands, only 8 of them on colour?

[maharis]

I know it's spoiler season and everyone is excited but so far I see one legacy playable: Dark Petition.

Anyone that is thinking Nic Fit is "coming back" or Tezzerator will be good, due to some of these cards, is fooling themselves.

I agree. Unfortunately, Legacy is simply too fast for most synergy- or attrition-based decks to compete.

[rufus]

I agree. Unfortunately, Legacy is simply too fast for most synergy- or attrition-based decks to compete.

Yeah, I was wondering about Elemental Bond since there are lots of good creatures with power >=3, but it seems like the only way it could find play in legacy is as a combo component.

[emidln]

Have you ever flashed back Looting using LED mana?

Yes. I've won all of those games.

[T-101]

Sure, that's the good part about Faithless

Faithless also lets you discard Dredgers, which is almost as important as the bonus draws you get. Like most people here, I really don't see this being played at all in Legacy Dredge.

It DOES look interesting for some kind of Loam strategy in Modern. Without Cycling lands, Loam in Modern has trouble turning the Loamed lands into other cards. Again, Faithless probably does the job better, but I could see running some number of these in addition to Faithless.

[iamajellydonut]

Yes. I've won all of those games.

He wasn't actually asking. He was pointing out that Magmatic Insight cannot be flashbacked, and that having flashback is a big fucking deal.

[bruizar]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/75/821/635032490975821761.jpg

The only proper way to play!

[GenghisTom]

Great, I just racked my brain for an hour over that puzzle just to find out the rules of Magic were different back then which is why I found no solution.

"During your upkeep, use Seasinger to gain control of Scarwood Bandits, then use Musician to give bandits a cumulative upkeep and choose not to pay, therefore sacrificing it and getting back your artifacts it stole."

Uh, no...?

[sjmcc13]

Great, I just racked my brain for an hour over that puzzle just to find out the rules of Magic were different back then which is why I found no solution. Oh they were different all right.
This if from back when we had Interrupts....

[Humphrey]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/75/822/635032490977069777.jpg

[Lord Seth]

I remember a puzzle that required you to drop to below 0 life because back then, you didn't lose the game for having 0 or less life until the end of the phase.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I'm very excited about Evolutionary Leap. At first I just thought it was a shitty replacement for Survival of the Fittest, but it's just completely different. Maybe it won't be able to find a home in Legacy, but Modern has been looking for a good sac outlet for forever. The Zombie Bombardment type decks of Legacy are missing Cabal Therapies and even stuff like Carrion Feeder, but Evolutionary Leap's card advantage engine may be a great fit.

At the very least it's incredible with Persist stuff, which already exists there. Even evoke creatures could be pretty fun. Welcome back Shriekmaw.

[iamajellydonut]

Even evoke creatures could be pretty fun. Welcome back Shriekmaw.

Holy shit. I didn't even think of evoke. Step aside, Punishing Fire.

Jesus...

[Barook]

Even evoke creatures could be pretty fun. Welcome back Shriekmaw.
Nice catch. That's pretty sexy.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

At the very least it's incredible with Persist stuff, which already exists there. Even evoke creatures could be pretty fun. Welcome back Shriekmaw.

It almost seems like a "fixed" Birthing Pod. It's a little better at getting value (w/ Evoke, Persist, Unearth, maybe even Dash dudes), but removes the dangerous tutor aspect of Pod. I can definitely see an archetype in Modern forming around this card very quickly.

[LOLWut]

It almost seems like a "fixed" Birthing Pod. It's a little better at getting value (w/ Evoke, Persist, Unearth, maybe even Dash dudes), but removes the dangerous tutor aspect of Pod. I can definitely see an archetype in Modern forming around this card very quickly.

Decisions and tutoring -> value, like everything else now. Still, cool enough card and cool enough set. Pitchfork in the holster for now.

[Cire]

Calculated Dismissal
2U
Instant
Counter target spell unless its controller pays 3.
Spell mastery — If there are two or more instant and/or sorcery cards in your graveyard, scry 2.

I know a three mana soft counter probably won't be even close to cutting it - but the Spell mastery gives me some pause as this acts as a counter and pretty good card quality at the same time. Good enough - probably not, but modern should love this?

Edit - it's a slightly more efficient condescend if cast for 3 without the option to cast for 2 or 4+

[CutthroatCasual]

Modern can't afford to run it. Any counter that's 3 mana or more in Modern should be a hard counter. It'll be a nice Dissolve replacement though. As much as I don't like the idea of Standard, it's much more interesting than Modern right now.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Decisions and tutoring -> value, like everything else now. Still, cool enough card and cool enough set. Pitchfork in the holster for now.

True, true. Tutoring for specific answers IS value. But this new card can do some Instant-speed shenanigans that Pod was incapable of, letting it eek out maybe a smidgen more value.


I know a three mana soft counter probably won't be even close to cutting it - but the Spell mastery gives me some pause as this acts as a counter and pretty good card quality at the same time. Good enough - probably not, but modern should love this?

Seems more like Limited fodder.

Modern would need an incredibly strong upside to running what is, as you said in the Edit, Condescend with less flexibility. A conditional Scry 2 just doesn't cut the mustard. If it bounced a creature or drew a card, we might be talking.

I don't play Standard, but from my many Tarkir block drafts, I've seen a pretty good countermagic suite in Standard. Silumgar's Scorn is effectively Counterspell in control decks that choose a Hexproof, Flying dragon as their finisher (like Dragonlord Ojutai or Silumgar, the Drifting Death. And then there are a bunch of strong strong, situational counterspells to round out the suite in things like Ojutai's Command, Disdainful Stroke, Stubborn Denial, and Stratus Dancer. I don't Calculated Dismissal would be worth it in Standard but, again, I don't play Standard....just mouthin' off for fun.

[Zombie]

Calculated Dismissal
2U
Instant
Counter target spell unless its controller pays 3.
Spell mastery — If there are two or more instant and/or sorcery cards in your graveyard, scry 2.

I know a three mana soft counter probably won't be even close to cutting it - but the Spell mastery gives me some pause as this acts as a counter and pretty good card quality at the same time. Good enough - probably not, but modern should love this?

Edit - it's a slightly more efficient condescend if cast for 3 without the option to cast for 2 or 4+

Reminds me of Sage's Dousing, which did some work in Standard back in the day.

[Barook]

True, true. Tutoring for specific answers IS value. But this new card can do some Instant-speed shenanigans that Pod was incapable of, letting it eek out maybe a smidgen more value
It's also better at converting tokens into actual creatures while Pod has to follow the casting cost curve.

[Cire]

It's also better at converting tokens into actual creatures while Pod has to follow the casting cost curve.

Leap plus mogg war marshal? Three searches off one card?

[iamajellydonut]

So, going to bed last night I was scoping out a potential preorder from SCG. Go to bed with Evolutionary Leap at $3.99. Go to work and go online to make preorder and find it now at $6.99.

The hype is real.

[lyracian]

Full set is up. Psychic Rebuttal looks interesting but a little restrictive.

Psychic Rebuttal 1U
Counter Instant/Sorcery that Targets you
Spell Mastery copy that spell

Sword is also probably too slow for Legacy.

Sword of the Animist 2
Equip 2
Gives +1/+1
Search for a BASIC land when Creature attacks.

[QBChaz]

Sword is also probably too slow for Legacy.


And too shit.

[Barook]

http://media.wizards.com/2015/origins_askdf9aj2399v/en_NbvScAhNlt.png
I would rather have Jitte than this crap. Or SoFaI. If the costs were :1: and :1:, we could talk about it.

[Gheizen64]

It also give +1+1 and put the Basic into play tapped. Probably a bit too slow but it's a nice card for standard and it trigger off attack not damage to players or damage in general, meaning they have to kill ur creature before combat or you just trigger it.
Another cute card is the :2::r: 1/3 creature that put a 1/1 thopter with flying into play and give all your artifact creatures haste, working as a pseudo-fires of yavimaya for artifact creatures that also give you 2 bodies to work with.

Vintage also got a 4/3 :3: mana juggernaut if Shop still exist.

Black got also a cute combat trick into Touch of Moonglove , instant :b: give a creature +1+0 and deattouch, if a creature get killed this turn, deal 2 damage to ur opponent too. In aggressive strategies this kill an annoying blocker (goyf, Tasigur, Angler ) and deal 2 to ur opponent.

Best cards were already spoiled, but i think the set's looking good.

[Barook]

http://media.wizards.com/2015/origins_askdf9aj2399v/en_uSlMKHaFaT.png

Elves could now run a one-sided sweeper in the board if they wanted to. :eyebrow:

[rufus]

Psychic Rebuttal looks like it's got 2 for 1 potential since it counters and copies. Pretty nice for black discard spells and maybe some other stuff. Probably too slow to be relevant in legacy.

[iamajellydonut]

Pretty nice for black discard spells and maybe some other stuff.

"Other stuff" doesn't actually exist. It's basically just targeted discard.

[Finn]

Rebutt is rather interesting. In principle it should be a lot like a redirection spell of the Misdirection sort. I find this new take intriguing. Is it better in Legacy than just redirection? (if the duplicate were an option, it would be superior against Show and Tell? - are there any prominent cases where recasting the spell is different from just redirecting it? Burning Wish perhaps? Or Thoughtseize?) If it is not a considerable difference than I would think that Misdirection and similar spells have it beat.

[Zombie]

Thoughtseize is actively worse for being recast, it'll be you who loses the life :P

[rufus]

"Other stuff" doesn't actually exist. It's basically just targeted discard.

There's some other odds and ends like Forked Bolt and Lightning Bolt, Gitaxian Probe and Diabolic Edict.


are there any prominent cases where recasting the spell is different from just redirecting it?

Recasting would be a *huge* deal because of storm triggers, but this just copies. It's significantly different because you become the controller - so you're the one that gets to name the card for Cabal Therapy or choose the card for Thoughtseize. There are also cards that target an opponent rather than a player (e.g. Duress).

Edit: Ninja'd - I think paying the life is worth the privilege of picking the card for thoughtseize.

Edit: I missed that Intuition targets!

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/ori/cards/orbsofwarding.jpg

Seems good in MUD, at least in the Workshop variants, as an alternative to Witchbane Orb. How important is the additional mana?

[Scott]

It's no Qasali Pridemage, Reclamation Sage, or Leonin Relic-Warder, but I think it's worth noting that this is the only 1 CMC artifact/enchantment destruction on a creature, even if only for trivia, and never for turn 2 GSZ/turn 3 activation purposes.

http://media.wizards.com/2015/origins_askdf9aj2399v/en_fIE8eNUxRB.png

[Infinitium]

Excellent set. Plenty of potentially playable cards yet no strict upgrades to existing ones as far as I can see. Speculating through the spoiler;

Chief of the Foundry: Another lord for artifact stompy decks, which imo are the best of the bunch what with (artifact) manlands allowing a higher IMS count. Much worse than Master of Etherium though, and probably doesn't make the deck competitive still.

Ramroller: 4/3 for 3 with a playable drawback makes this one of the better artifact 3-drops. Of course, this says more about the state of artifact creatures than anything.

Archangel of Tithes: Linvala, Keeper of Silence sees some play in D&T. Then again, Linvala has a far more powerful effect than attacking/bloking shenanigans. Pass.

Hallowed Moonlight: Well, in addition to reanimate effects it does hose S&T and token generators (eg Batterskull). Still too narrow for competitive play.

Kytheon, Hero of Akros: So it's a 2/1 for W with an ability. Once in a blue moon it flips into an indestructible 4/4 that is still somehow easier to remove than the creature side (albeit the flip condition ensures it will have at least 1 blocker as it flips). Not sure an upgrade to Isamaru is something D&T wants, albeit the opportunity cost for including it as a one-of is pretty low. I like how his mechanics hints at him being a demigod (being erzats classical greek hero boy guy and all).

Relic Seeker: Stoneforge Mystic is better. It will see play in Soldier Stompy (with Kytheon's Irregulars), but SS doesn't see competitive play at all. Yay pet deck?

Vryn Nightmare: As Thalia teaches us, being 1 mana more expensive is a big deal. Angel Stompy yay?

Day's Undoing: Gut instinct tells me the drawback is too severe for it to see play, Leyline of Anticipation and Serum Powder nonwithstanding. See: Temporal Mastery.

Harbinger of Tides: Decent Merfolk 2-drop is decent. Still waiting for the deck to drop the 3-mana lords and start running BS. Maybe this could have a spot then?

Jace, Vryn's Prodigy: So basically you give up JtMS in order to play a shitty looter that eventually turns into a planeswalker threatening to recur spells. Twice. Over 4 turns. Nope.

Psychic Rebuttal: Conditional 2-mana spell to sometimes redirect 1-mana spells. No.

Thopter Spy Network: "Hey, this looks bretty good in Stax".

Dark Petition: It's like Demonic Tutor in combo decks! Exept, you know, too expensive to cast before your acceleration spells. Which is usually ah, after you've played out your disruption and solution spells. So I guess if you want to pay 2 mana to find the engine spell of your choosing this is the premium spell in the game. Unless you also want to play Ad Nauseum that is. Or the opponent plays GY-hate. Overhyped.

Liliana, Heretical Healer: Possibly better than Liliana of the Veil in decks packing Aether Vial. Then again, those decks tend to appreciate versatile creature removal. Maybe.

Shadows of the Past: I like this one. Aggressively costed. Not really playable unfortunately as Zombardment has better things going but I like it nonetheless.

Abbot of Kheral Keep: So, this is potential card advantage on a decent body for 2 mana. Assuming that you have at least another mana available. And preferrably haven't played your landdrop for the turn. And can account for 2cc. So, ah, turn 4? If you made your first 3 landdrops? Maybe as an alternative to Snapcaster in UR decks packing Brainstorm. Probably not.

Avaricious Dragon: It's a draw engine for creature decks that somehow leaves you worse versus mass removal. Pass.

Chandra, Fire of Khalesh: No.

Magmatic Insight: Cycling surplus lands mid to lategame, allowing you to run a few extra comfortably? Not a 4-of outside Lands, but at such a low opportunity cost this looks like a pretty good way to reduce variance in a variety of nonblue red decks to me.

Pia and Kiran Nalaar: It's a pretty good fit for WR D&T packing Vial and Karakas (and Imperial Recruiter). And Cavern of Souls naming human. Stalling and inevitability and reach all in one package. No idea if that's a good enough deck to actually see play though.

Scab-Clan Berserker: Fuck yes. This is maindeck material in RDW.

Thopter Engineer: Another playable 3-drop in artifact stompy decks. Hmm.

Caustic Caterpillar: Reclamation Sage and Qasali Pridemage are both better. This is a 1-mana alternative though. In b4 Ranger of Eos/Proclamation of Rebirth rules format?

Dwynen, Gilt-Leaf Daen: Lifegaining lord that blocks Delver and survives Bolt/Decay. Silver bullets with general applications can be good, albeit 4 mana pushes it. Testable in Elves for Delver MU's.

Evolutionary Leap: Fixed Survival of the Fittest? Curiously, despite not tutoring and requiring one to actually play creatures this looks stronger in some respects. It's a one-sided Fecundity if you have spare mana for one, and allows you to abuse Vengevines and token generators for card advantage. It also protects recursive creatures from exile. Slots into Zombardment and Elf shells easily enough, and imo has excellent prospects of turning into a format staple overnight.

Managorger Hydra: Conditionally large 3cc creatures without utility have a track record of nope in this format. Meh.

Nissa, Vastwood Seer: Again, how the fuck does one end up making a 3cc Elf planeswalker unplayable in every single competitive elf deck in every format ever conceived?

Shaman of the Pack: Meh. Doesn't really add anything to existing Elf decks. If you have Symbiote and a GSZ you're still better off bouncing Visionaries nine times out of ten. I guess it is the best win condition available for Evolutionary Leap versions at the time being though.

So, looking through that again I'd say Scab-Clan Mauler and Evolutionary Leap are the subjectively strongest cards, with Magmatic Insight being a lowkey inclusion in RDW and Lands type decks and a few conditional cards seeing fringe play besides that. Not really as many playables as I initially thought.

Still, this is the best Dylan album since Blood on the Tracks as far as I'm concerned.

[Barook]

I'd say the top 5 cards in the set are, in no particular order:

Vryn Wingmare
Dark Petition
Scab-Clan Berserker
Evolutionary Leap
Shaman of the Pack

Other cards appear pretty playable, too.

@Infinitium:
I'll try out Pia and Kiran Nalaar in Imperial Taxes as tutor target. Being 4cc and the intensive red requirements are a problem, though.

[jrsthethird]

http://mythicspoiler.com/ori/cards/orbsofwarding.jpg

Seems good in MUD, at least in the Workshop variants, as an alternative to Witchbane Orb. How important is the additional mana?

I don't know, but blanking Young Pyromancer tokens sounds pretty good right now.

[(nameless one)]

http://mythicspoiler.com/ori/cards/orbsofwarding.jpg

Seems good in MUD, at least in the Workshop variants, as an alternative to Witchbane Orb. How important is the additional mana?

Turn 4 Humility to turn 5 this

[Barook]

Turn 4 Humility to turn 5 this
Orim's Prayer does the same thing, except cheaper.

[thecrav]

Orim's Prayer does the same thing, except cheaper.

Or Caltrops?

[Asthereal]

Turn 4 Humility to turn 5 this
What makes you think you will live to see turn four? :wink:

[LOLWut]

Decisions and tutoring -> value, like everything else now. Still, cool enough card and cool enough set. Pitchfork in the holster for now.
True, true. Tutoring for specific answers IS value. But this new card can do some Instant-speed shenanigans that Pod was incapable of, letting it eek out maybe a smidgen more value

What I said wasn't clear; I was saying that Pod being replaced by this is representative of WotC's likes and dislikes now. Disliking tutoring and decisions, and printing pure value cards instead.

[Dice_Box]

I don't see the value in Leap. The card goes to your hand, you get no say in what you draw and it takes another external force to acure value. I mean you can build around it sure, but this is no Pod.

[rufus]

... I mean you can build around [Evolutionary Leap] sure, but this is no Pod.

Yeah, it's a very different card. The facts that you can use it at instant speed, and aren't constrained by the CMC curve are significant advantages.

In practical terms, this 'pull off the top and shuffle' mechanic is also faster than shuffling the whole deck for every search.

[Phoenix Ignition]

What I said wasn't clear; I was saying that Pod being replaced by this is representative of WotC's likes and dislikes now. Disliking tutoring and decisions, and printing pure value cards instead.

Why are people trying to read this much into the card? They didn't want to reprint some card, so they made a new card. This card doesn't say "search your deck" and therefore we can immediately surmise WotC's entire gameplan from now on like we're the stereotypical math genius of a Hollywood movie watching the stars align?

[iamajellydonut]

I mean you can build around it sure, but this is no Pod.

Outside of "build around me", I see Leap mostly as a Modern Sylvan Library more than anything else. And I think its generic effect would make it a pretty ok one.

[LOLWut]

Why are people trying to read this much into the card? They didn't want to reprint some card, so they made a new card. This card doesn't say "search your deck" and therefore we can immediately surmise WotC's entire gameplan from now on like we're the stereotypical math genius of a Hollywood movie watching the stars align?

You are arguing that in recent years WotC hasn't been averse to tutoring, and hasn't been in favor of more goodstuff or random value? It's less Hollywood math genius surmising the future, and more preschooler playing connect-the-dots of the past and present. Also, I said
Still, cool enough card and cool enough set.

[Phoenix Ignition]

You are arguing that in recent years WotC hasn't been averse to tutoring, and hasn't been in favor of more goodstuff or random value? It's less Hollywood math genius surmising the future, and more preschooler playing connect-the-dots of the past and present. Also, I said

Is the preschooler making up facts? I just searched the last 16 sets of magic released and there are roughly 4-6 "tutor" effects in each of them, with the exception of fetchland reprints which just happened and are indeed tutor effects.

[Dice_Box]

I really like Orbs for Shops. It's better than Witchbane thanks to having an effective that helps shut down decks and is not just a single effect on its own. One extra mana is not the biggest issue but you might lock yourself out of casting it. I want two though, right now.

[Amon Amarth]

I really like Orbs for Shops. It's better than Witchbane thanks to having an effective that helps shut down decks and is not just a single effect on its own. One extra mana is not the biggest issue but you might lock yourself out of casting it. I want two though, right now.

From what I've seen, it looks like there are lots of YP decks and Orb seems good against them. Stopping tokens and burn is sick.

[phonics]

Leap might be good in super heavy creature deck with collected company and aether vial to keep pooping out dudes while being sort of resilient to sweepers.

[Dice_Box]

No, it would not be. To use Coco you play a large mass of creatures and then an extra way to tutor them. (Cord or GSZ) Adding in more dead weight is not a good plan. If your running Cord and Vial, you don't have the space to then add this.

Add on top of that it's complete lack of choice on what you fetch and I can say I am not a fan. I guess if you had a combo going like you get in modern where you are sacing Finks and have a way to stop the counter then it's not bad, but in such a situation would you not just want a way to go infinite?

[rufus]

Gather the Pack seems more synergistic with Collected Company than Leap.

Maybe there's some way to make Leap work well with cards like Bloodghasts and Veteran Explorers.

[Dice_Box]

Digging though the ful spoilers I am really impressed about this set. The list of cards I find interesting is high, there is a least one in every colour as well as an artifact. This has proven to be a fruitful printing. I am very impressed.

[Darkenslight]

Gather the Pack seems more synergistic with Collected Company than Leap.

Maybe there's some way to make Leap work well with cards like Bloodghasts and Veteran Explorers.

I heard Sneak Attack is a card...

[phonics]

No, it would not be. To use Coco you play a large mass of creatures and then an extra way to tutor them. (Cord or GSZ) Adding in more dead weight is not a good plan. If your running Cord and Vial, you don't have the space to then add this.

Add on top of that it's complete lack of choice on what you fetch and I can say I am not a fan. I guess if you had a combo going like you get in modern where you are sacing Finks and have a way to stop the counter then it's not bad, but in such a situation would you not just want a way to go infinite?

Well of course it wouldn't look or play like the lists that exist now, especially any combo lists where the tutoring is needed. The combo needs the tutor which then allows for silver bullets which would not work well with the random aspect of Evolutionary Leap, especially since lots of your creatures are just stinkers by themselves. I only mentioned vial since one of the problems Leap has is putting the cards in hand and not in play. Without a combo then the individual power of your creatures goes up, which would allow you to apply more pressure with less creatures on the board making you less susceptible to sweepers, their casting costs are all similar because of Collected Company which would make Vial more viable. Not saying its definitely going to be a thing, but if Leap is going to be played, it is going to be played in a value/ grinding deck.

[Barook]

Leap + Tangleroot + tons of Kobolds/:0: mana creatures?

[TsumiBand]

Yeah I feel like I don't see a ton of appeal in Evolutionary Leap either. Isn't Legacy a little too tuned to consistency to tolerate such a random tutor? This is one of those cards that is going to just poop on you sometimes; you'll sac a dude to get the same dude or something lesser, and you'll headdesk and wish you'd just played like Worldly Tutor or something.

Like seriously - Worldly Tutor is a thing. Eladamri's Call is a thing. Neither one really makes much of a splash and both get What You Want When You Want It. So unless you're going fully Johnny Combo and trying to luck-sack your way to each W, it's weird to compare this thing to even a Sylvan Library.

[rufus]

Leap + Tangleroot + tons of Kobolds/:0: mana creatures?

It looks fun, but that's three cards and still no win con.

[Darkenslight]

It looks fun, but that's three cards and still no win con.

Purphuros, God of the Forge or Impact Tremors seem like a legitimate plan. But that's a four-card combo. You can also use token-makers and Sneak Attack to build your deck in such a way as to guarantee a certain creature in your hand.

[LOLWut]

Is the preschooler making up facts? I just searched the last 16 sets of magic released and there are roughly 4-6 "tutor" effects in each of them, with the exception of fetchland reprints which just happened and are indeed tutor effects.

Did you happen to notice the quality (and quantity, too, actually) of the tutors when you did your search?

New cards that come up for the last block: Ainok Guide, Embodiment of Spring, Map the Wastes, Renowned Weaponsmith, Sarkhan Unbroken, Sarkhan's Triumph, Sidisi, Undead Vizier, Trail of Mystery.

New cards that come up for Invasion block: Captain Sisay, Diabolic Intent, Eladamri's Call, Elfhame Sanctuary, Frenzied Tilling, Gaea's Balance, Lay of the Land, Manipulate Fate, Planar Portal, Primal Growth, Quirion Trailblazer, Scouting Trek, Skyship Weatherlight, Sterling Grove, Terminal Moraine, Wild Research

New cards that come up for two blocks ago: Burnished Hart, Disciple of Deceit, Font of Fertility, Karametra, God of Harvests, Ordeal of Nylea, Peregrination, Plea for Guidance.

New cards that come up for Mirage block: Buried Alive, Doomsday, Enlightened Tutor, Goblin Recruiter, Grinning Totem, Kyscu Drake, Llanowar Sentinel, Mangara's Tome, Mystical Tutor, Natural Order, Rampant Growth, Tithe, Urborg Panther, Vampiric Tutor, Worldly Tutor, Zirilan of the Claw (and Mirage fetch lands if we're counting those).

By all means, compare other newer sets and their tutors to other older sets and their tutors. Again, a preschooler could see that the place of tutors in the game is weakened in the modern game, and facts wouldn't have to be made up.

[sjmcc13]

Purphuros, God of the Forge or Impact Tremors seem like a legitimate plan. But that's a four-card combo. You can also use token-makers and Sneak Attack to build your deck in such a way as to guarantee a certain creature in your hand.

Token Maker + Polymorph/Proteus Staff does the same with less cards needed as it finds the creature and puts it directly into play.

[Lemnear]

If you look at Evolutionary Leap as a tutor any try to find similarities to Survival of the Fittest , you are simply on the wrong track. Leap is a value sac outlet first and foremost. It also delivers some Form of cardadvantage against removal if you leave a green mana open. That's it. Abuse this niche or not, but don't call the card crap just because you confuse the card with another enchantment for the same cost or wish it was

[Richard Cheese]

If you look at Evolutionary Leap as a tutor any try to find similarities to Survival of the Fittest , you are simply on the wrong track. Leap is a value sac outlet first and foremost. It also delivers some Form of cardadvantage against removal if you leave a green mana open. That's it. Abuse this niche or not, but don't call the card crap just because you confuse the card with another enchantment for the same cost or wish it was

/discussion

[rufus]

Excellent set. Plenty of potentially playable cards yet no strict upgrades to existing ones as far as I can see. Speculating through the spoiler;

Quoted for truth.

I do wonder about a couple of other marginal cards, but it's silly stuff like Disciple of the Ring + Millikin

[nedleeds]

Eladamri's Call is a thing. Neither one really makes much of a splash and both get What You Want When You Want It.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-TC0optD7Jeo/VZq7Uhg2YGI/AAAAAAAAFEI/-8qbi_D8mxA/s912/call.png

I think Call is pretty good right now. Calling for Iona and staring at Omniderp isn't bad. Or finding your game one Containment Priest vs. Reanimator is real good. Shuffling after Brainstorm or resetting your library is just gravy. I think the card is good but people are slaves to whatever BVP is pimping over at SCG.

[iamajellydonut]

So, verdict is in. Origins is a fun set to play in a Limited environment. The first in a long, long time. I'll take it as a good sign.

[jrsthethird]

Agreed. I went 2-3 but I had a blast each game. Even when I didn't find the right lands or something.

New Chandra is harder to flip in Limited than you'd expect. Opened her as my Prerelease card in the Red pack and only flipped her once.

[raudo]

I preordered some stuff for the first time in ages.

4x molten vortex
4x magmatic insight
4x vryn wingmare
4x starfield of nyx
4x abbot of keral keep
4x relic seeker
4x hangarback walker
4x harbinger of the tides
4x mizzium meddler

All were quite cheap at least for now. Lets see if any of those cards is good enough to see play in legacy or modern.

[(nameless one)]

I don't get why everyone is raving about Vryn Wingmare. Glowrider has existed for more than a decade now and sees little to no play in eternal.

[Gheizen64]

I don't get why everyone is raving about Vryn Wingmare. Glowrider has existed for more than a decade now and sees little to no play in eternal.

Cause flying is a big deal as you can actually attack with it in a world of 1/1 tokens and even trade delvers in a pinch

Plus equipments

[Phoenix Ignition]

It's the first glowrider in modern, and can tag team with Thalia to make previously great cards (like collected company and chord of calling) much worse to play. It doesn't have a spot yet necessarily but I think it will in the near future. Flying helps a bit.

[bruizar]

I preordered some stuff for the first time in ages.

4x molten vortex
4x magmatic insight
4x vryn wingmare
4x starfield of nyx
4x abbot of keral keep
4x relic seeker
4x hangarback walker
4x harbinger of the tides
4x mizzium meddler

All were quite cheap at least for now. Lets see if any of those cards is good enough to see play in legacy or modern.

[Darkenslight]

I don't get why everyone is raving about Vryn Wingmare. Glowrider has existed for more than a decade now and sees little to no play in eternal.

Vryn annoys the everloving shit out of decks with less creatures. It has a relevant combat ability, like Thalia, and can still prod things in a pinch.

[Richard Cheese]

Agreed. I went 2-3 but I had a blast each game. Even when I didn't find the right lands or something.

New Chandra is harder to flip in Limited than you'd expect. Opened her as my Prerelease card in the Red pack and only flipped her once.

Set is definitely a lot of fun in limited. Cracked Pyromancer's Goggles and burned my way to top 4.

Although after looking at the card:

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ori/236.jpg

I'm not sure if pyromancers are trying to protect their eyes, or if they're just extremely skeptical people.

http://popjoust.com/images/jousters/slab-cropped-jouster-4012-frymeme.png

[Bosque]

Origins limited was in fact pretty great and the cards I think might be useful in the set for eternal formats are dirt cheap.

[TsumiBand]

Set is definitely a lot of fun in limited. Cracked Pyromancer's Goggles and burned my way to top 4.

Although after looking at the card:

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ori/236.jpg

I'm not sure if pyromancers are trying to protect their eyes, or if they're just extremely skeptical people.

http://popjoust.com/images/jousters/slab-cropped-jouster-4012-frymeme.png

http://www.mtgcardmaker.com/mcmaker/createcard.php?name=Pyromancer's+Goggles&color=Gold&mana_r=0&mana_u=0&mana_g=0&mana_b=0&mana_w=0&mana_colorless=5&picture=tempimages%2F302678482.png&supertype=Legendary&cardtype=Artifact&subtype=&expansion=Tenth+Edition&rarity=Mythic&cardtext=%7Bt%7D%3A+Add+%7Br%7D+to+your+mana+pool.+When+that+mana+is+spent+to+cast+a+red+instant+or+sorcery+spell%2C+copy+that+spell+and+you+may+choose+new+targets+for+the+copy.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%22Why+couldn't+she+be+the+other+way+around%2C+with+the+fishpart+on+top+and+the+woman-part+on+the+bottom%3F%22+-+Fry%5D&power=&toughness=&artist=Matt+Groening&bottom=™+%26+©+1993-2013+Wizards+of+the+Coast+LLC&set1=236&set2=272&setname=

[iamajellydonut]

http://www.mtgcardmaker.com/mcmaker/createcard.php?name=Pyromancer's+Goggles&color=Gold&mana_r=0&mana_u=0&mana_g=0&mana_b=0&mana_w=0&mana_colorless=5&picture=tempimages%2F302678482.png&supertype=Legendary&cardtype=Artifact&subtype=&expansion=Tenth+Edition&rarity=Mythic&cardtext=%7Bt%7D%3A+Add+%7Br%7D+to+your+mana+pool.+When+that+mana+is+spent+to+cast+a+red+instant+or+sorcery+spell%2C+copy+that+spell+and+you+may+choose+new+targets+for+the+copy.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%22Why+couldn't+she+be+the+other+way+around%2C+with+the+fishpart+on+top+and+the+woman-part+on+the+bottom%3F%22+-+Fry%5D&power=&toughness=&artist=Matt+Groening&bottom=™+%26+©+1993-2013+Wizards+of+the+Coast+LLC&set1=236&set2=272&setname=

A+

[Richard Cheese]

I need this alter and a reason to play this card so bad.

[Barook]

http://www.mtgcardmaker.com/mcmaker/createcard.php?name=Pyromancer's+Goggles&color=Gold&mana_r=0&mana_u=0&mana_g=0&mana_b=0&mana_w=0&mana_colorless=5&picture=tempimages%2F302678482.png&supertype=Legendary&cardtype=Artifact&subtype=&expansion=Tenth+Edition&rarity=Mythic&cardtext=%7Bt%7D%3A+Add+%7Br%7D+to+your+mana+pool.+When+that+mana+is+spent+to+cast+a+red+instant+or+sorcery+spell%2C+copy+that+spell+and+you+may+choose+new+targets+for+the+copy.%0D%0A%0D%0A%5B%22Why+couldn't+she+be+the+other+way+around%2C+with+the+fishpart+on+top+and+the+woman-part+on+the+bottom%3F%22+-+Fry%5D&power=&toughness=&artist=Matt+Groening&bottom=™+%26+©+1993-2013+Wizards+of+the+Coast+LLC&set1=236&set2=272&setname=
Awesome, but I wait for the version that has the right frame and set symbol.

[TsumiBand]

Yeahhhh, so I'm inept when it comes to self-hosting images (or anything else, which is stupid because I'm okay enough with Python/Flask/weblang garbage to just like... have a website...) - I could have done this all in gIMP but instead I just did the Fryomancer part and then uses an online card generator for the rest. I was bummed about the border color but I didn't have much lunch break left to go hunting for a more different website.

SORRY U GUYS

[tescrin]

Evolutionary leap seems good against miracles. Put a dude or two out, leave a mana open, sac at least a guy when they terminus. What's more, it's an enchant, which is nice.

Let's note that you could conceivably tutor with this, as mentioned by others, especially in decks that have a difficult time finding creatures (Delver.)

Imagine BUG Delver where you replace a dude with this; maybe 2. Then whenever (for the rest of the game) someone would kill your guy, you search for a guy.

Notice that it works well with Bitterblossom and Lingering Souls, Pyromancer, Monestary Mentor, and similar.

[iamajellydonut]

Evolutionary leap seems good against miracles. Put a dude or two out, leave a mana open, sac at least a guy when they terminus. What's more, it's an enchant, which is nice.

Done better by Sylvan Library.

[Cire]

Done better by Sylvan Library.

Why not both? Green decks that don't run blue need all the CA they can get.

[bruizar]

And Jace is on the rise.. Went from 8 euros to 15 euros already, almost doubling in a week. Told you :-)

[Scott]

Magic Origins watch: 1 Shaman of the Pack in 1st place Elves, 3 Day's Undoing in 6th place Affinity, 2 Day's Undoing in 8th place OmniTell, and 2 Dark Petition in 15th place Storm or Ad Nauseam-less ANT, whatever it's called, in Chicago (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/3429_top_32_legacy_decklists.html).

[lyracian]

Magic Origins watch: 1 Shaman of the Pack in 1st place Elves, 3 Day's Undoing in 6th place Affinity, 2 Day's Undoing in 8th place OmniTell, and 2 Dark Petition in 15th place Storm or Ad Nauseam-less ANT, whatever it's called, in Chicago (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/3429_top_32_legacy_decklists.html).

Also Disciple of the Ring in the Reanimator (20th place) sideboard - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=87970
Then Harbinger of the Tides in Merfolk (4th place) sideboard - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=87943

I did not see anything else.

[Scott]

Also Disciple of the Ring in the Reanimator (20th place) sideboard - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=87970
Then Harbinger of the Tides in Merfolk (4th place) sideboard - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=87943

I did not see anything else.

Not Origins related, but 2 Snapcaster Mages and a Sire of Insanity in that Reanimator list are interesting too.

[rufus]

I need this alter and a reason to play [Pyromancer's Goggles] so bad.

The casting cost is problematic in legacy. That *might* work as a virtue if it's a sideboard card against counterbalance.

That said, it's not game-winning but I like the synergy with Molten Psyche. Trash for Treasure, Conflagrate and Firecat Blitz are also cute.

[Richard Cheese]

Forget all that, I just want to cast a massive Epic Experiment off it.

[rufus]

Forget all that, I just want to cast a massive Epic Experiment off it.

It occurs to me that if you can 'recycle' the goggles (like with Goblin Welder) it can provide additional copies of spells.

Gamble is another fun option to cast with it.

[sjmcc13]

The casting cost is problematic in legacy.
Who said anything about casting it?
Welder it in to play, and maybe Transmute Artifact as well.

[Dice_Box]

If I am casting something with Goggles, it would be Price of Progress.

[bruizar]

If I am casting something with Goggles, it would be Price of Progress.

Suicide button?

[rufus]

Forget all that, I just want to cast a massive Epic Experiment off it.

If you can copy it, then you could actually chain them with fork effects.

My memory is a bit fuzzy but it seems like Wort, the Raidmother has a largely similar effect and hasn't had much impact.

[Darkenslight]

If you can copy it, then you could actually chain them with fork effects.

My memory is a bit fuzzy but it seems like Wort, the Raidmother has a largely similar effect and hasn't had much impact.

Wort also requires creatures. This is an artifact, which you can bin on turn 1, get back with Welder and make more shenanigans with.

[Fox]

Who said anything about casting it?
Welder it in to play, and maybe Transmute Artifact as well.

Or just don't cast it; wait for opponent to cast show and tell and suddenly you have a mox ruby on steroids. Double pyro anyone?

[Humphrey]

http://www.5colorcontrol.com/noshyfts/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Magic-Origins.png

[Lemnear]

awesome comic

Same here... *ShedsATear*

[lyracian]

Same here... *ShedsATear*
I agree; I was hoping for a few classic reprints (at least the Urza-Tron lands) as a nod to the actual Origins. At least we get this great comic :laugh:

[bruizar]

Jace to €19, foil to €40. Up up up
$40, foil $60 out of stock

Also, most expensive card in the set... Basking in 'told you so' right now

[Barook]

Jace to €19, foil to €40. Up up up
$40, foil $60 out of stock

Also, most expensive card in the set... Basking in 'told you so' right now
It's just in Standard. Nobody cares about your little #mtgfinance adventures.

Come back to brag when it sees some competitive Legacy play.

[Julian23]

I don't even speculate for the money, I speculate because it's nice to say 'I told you so' in a world where too many opinions (including my own) drown signal with noise.

Please don't be that guy. "Being right" is something once can be proud of, but the moment someone feels the need to demand outside recognition for it, is the moment dealing with that person becomes a pain in the ass, because they are always so insecure about whether or not they are recognized as "right". It also hurts discussion when people think they need to constantly "rub it in". Especially when there's nothing to rub in for since from the very beginning, you and Barook were discussing different things (Legacy vs Standard playability).

It's just really annoying because it makes me as an outsider feel that you care more about recognition than the actual topic at hand. Only in bad arguments does one person end up "winning" anyways.

[bruizar]

It's just in Standard. Nobody cares about your little #mtgfinance adventures.

Come back to brag when it sees some competitive Legacy play.

Sure, don't go around complaining that MTG is prohibitively expensive to play though!


Please don't be that guy. "Being right" is something once can be proud of, but the moment someone feels the need to demand outside recognition for it, is the moment dealing with that person becomes a pain in the ass, because they are always so insecure about whether or not they are recognized as "right". It also hurts discussion when people think they need to constantly "rub it in". Especially when there's nothing to rub in for since from the very beginning, you and Barook were discussing different things (Legacy vs Standard playability).

It's just really annoying because it makes me as an outsider feel that you care more about recognition than the actual topic at hand. Only in bad arguments does one person end up "winning" anyways.

I get it and yes you are right. Like I said before, my recognition comes mainly from the profits, because some people will never believe you anyway and I'm not trying to be some mtgfinance prophet converting people on the source. If the opinions of others mattered to me I would have believed that Jace was among the worst walkers of the set, as many of you here said.

Barook and I were indeed discussing different things. He was talking about legacy, I was talking about Jace being a multiformat staple (Standard, Modern, Legacy and perhaps Vintage).

If you are SOLELY looking at legacy, you will more often than not miss the boat on new cards. The truly expensive newly printed cards are exclusively multiformat staples so not taking into account the financial effect of every format on a single card will burn you every time you try to purchase cards.

Mark my words, Jace will shine in standard. Ojutai's Command will be everywhere. People will notice that the type of cards you flashback are stronger, more game defining cards than you would flashback with Snapcaster Mage (because of summoning sickness vs flash), and then it will spill over to other formats trying to flashback bigger spells than the ones available in standard.

[rufus]

...
Come back to brag when it sees some competitive Legacy play.

I don't think any of the transform-walkers will see serious play in legacy - they're just too conditional or expensive to cast.

[bruizar]

I don't think any of the transform-walkers will see serious play in legacy - they're just too conditional or expensive to cast.

I agree that most of them are difficult. However, the condition on Jace is on par with enabling Tarmogoyf or Delve cards.

[jrsthethird]

my recognition comes mainly from the profits

Ladies and gentlemen, the Donald Trump of The Source.


I don't think any of the transform-walkers will see serious play in legacy - they're just too conditional or expensive to cast.

I disagree. It'll take some time, though. Chandra and Nissa are no brainers. Liliana suffers in most decks as being at the same part of the curve as LOTV, but in a deck with sacrifice outlets, a 2/3 lifelink beater that turns into a walker, leaving a body behind, is a lot of value. Especially if your outlets are instant speed, blanking any creature removal thrown at her (you sacrifice another creature to your effect in response to the Bolt at Liliana). Evolutionary Leap comes to mind in Standard/Modern, but Birthing Pod seems like a sick choice for Legacy.

Kytheon is a shoe-in if any sort of traditional White Weenie or Zoo strategy becomes viable again. Doubtful, but this is a strong addition. I played against a Legacy Esper deck on MTGO that played Jace and it was a really interesting build. I wish I could remember what else was in it, but I thought it had some potential.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I don't see the Origin Walkers breaking into Legacy, but I do see several with Modern potential. Specifically I like Nissa and Liliana in a Death Cloud build. The problem with Lili is that she competes with her 'of the Veil' version. But turn 2 Sakura-Tribe Elder, turn 3 Liliana, Heretical Healer seems pretty strong, especially since you can -2 her to get Steve back. And getting to 7 lands is doable to flip Nissa.

[sjmcc13]

Ladies and gentlemen, the Donald Trump of The Source. Not true until his avatar is an equivalent for a horrible and ugly wig...

[menace13]

Sure, don't go around complaining that MTG is prohibitively expensive to play though!
But it is.

[bruizar]

But it is.

It is, but even more so if cynical towards every new card only to have to purchase it at the $ high.

[bruizar]

First legacy appearance in reanimator

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=10200&d=258590&f=LE

[Darkenslight]

Jace was played and flipped in Omni-Tell today. Jace is the Real Deal, apparently.

[Cire]

Jace was played and flipped in Omni-Tell today. Jace is the Real Deal, apparently.

Is their a list for this? It sounds interesting - but I only saw the Jace-Reanimator list.

[iamajellydonut]

Is their a list for this? It sounds interesting - but I only saw the Jace-Reanimator list.

iirc, it was against Lands and didn't end up mattering in the slightest.

[Cire]

iirc, it was against Lands and didn't end up mattering in the slightest.

The omnitell list? Was this in a tourney or just in a playgroup on these boards? I wonder if the player ever felt jace mattering for any other game?

[ESG]

The omnitell list? Was this in a tourney or just in a playgroup on these boards? I wonder if the player ever felt jace mattering for any other game?

It was on the stream at SCG D.C. yesterday. Rudy Briksza brought it in after sideboarding.

[Darkenslight]

iirc, it was against Lands and didn't end up mattering in the slightest.

Not just against Lands, apparently; the PW side is relevant for being an AWC if your Omniscience gets Extracted, for example. The emblem allows you to get rid of most non-Eldrazi-playing decks, just by playign the game you already play.

[bruizar]

just by playign the game you already play.

* Criteria for good cards

[bruizar]

And Jace made its way to vintage. Like I said, Jace is good in every format

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=47811.60

[Lemnear]

And Jace made its way to vintage. Like I said, Jace is good in every format

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=47811.60

I suspect you should read further in this posted thread

[bruizar]

I did, tournament results are what counts. 13-3-1. The critics are solely people who haven't even tried him out.



Chubby Rain:
@Dragon - I don't know what to say other than, based on the past three tournaments and a combined record of 13-3-1, Jace has earned his spot in the decks I've played him in. Yes, infanticide of Jace makes me sad but the times the opponent doesn't have one of their 3-4 removal spells or I have a Misstep, Thoughtseize, etc to protect him, his impact is incredibly high for a two drop. I've actually won two game 1's against Dredge on the draw because I played a turn 1 Jace and went completely nuts with him the next turn(s).

@Lotus - At two mana, he is an incredible bargain if he lives. The +1 ability is never "bad" as it enables you to flashback a second spell the next turn - any value you get out of shrinking a creature is just icing on the proverbial cake. Jace does not replace Snapcaster as they are different cards: having to cast Snapcaster the turn you play the spell incentivizes running cheaper spells and having flash allows you to play a more reactive game. Jace is best with more expensive and more impactful spells, sorcery forms of disruption (i.e. Thoughtseize and Balance), and in decks that would otherwise lack an early play like Gifts. It will definitely create something new (and did...my list from yesterday is a bit of a doozy) - the card is incredibly busted for what it does.

After testing, my evaluation of Jace is 5/5 based on LSV's criteria from Channelfireball set reviews: he's a multiformat all star the dramatically changes the playstyle and card selection in the decks that run him.


In bold relevant points

And the list..

4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Snow-covered Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Jace, Vryn’s Prodigy
1 Monastery Mentor

4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
1 Mana Drain
1 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Balance
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Dig Through Time
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ponder
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

Sideboard:
1 Plains
2 Disenchant
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Devout Witness
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Flusterstorm
2 Containment Priest
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Rest in Peace


Note how Jace is the only 4-off alongside Force of Will and Flooded Strand

[Lemnear]

I did, tournament results are what counts. 13-3-1. The critics are solely people who haven't even tried him out.



In bold relevant points

And the list..

4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Snow-covered Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Jace, Vryn’s Prodigy
1 Monastery Mentor

4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
1 Mana Drain
1 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Balance
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Dig Through Time
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ponder
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

Sideboard:
1 Plains
2 Disenchant
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Devout Witness
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Flusterstorm
2 Containment Priest
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Rest in Peace


Note how Jace is the only 4-off alongside Force of Will and Flooded Strand

"Went undefeated in a 12-man event at the Player's Guild..."

You are making points based on that? For real? You are aware that he ran Jace alongside Ancestral, Lotus, Will and wincons like TimeKey and Tinker and that these cards sure were more game deciding than Jace? I beg to pardon!

There is no fucking evidence the card is better than the Mindsculptor, Gush, Gifts, Bob, Remora or Snapcaster.

[bruizar]

Obviously Jace is as strong as the spells he is going to flashback. Just like brainstorm is as strong as the spells you get to see off the top of your library.

The guy performed well in 3 consecutive tournaments. Yes, those were small tournaments but that doesn't make the match-ups in any given vintage tournament any easier. The power level in vintage decks is enormous. I mean, what do you expect? 500 man vintage tournament results? It's a near-dead format.

Jace was able to power through 2 game 1 dredge match-ups, something that is incredibly hard to do in vintage given the blistering speed of bazaar of baghdad. If anything, it only goes to show that Jace is easily flipped early in the game and that the critique in this thread does not gel with reality.

[Cire]

I guess the real issue with Baby Jace is that (as was stated) he is only as good as the spells he flashbacks. . . seeing as he doesn't replace snap caster any shell with Jace that isn't a combo deck like reanimator will be doing something like the following:

12 Cantrips
4 DTT
4 FOW
4 Snapcaster
22 Lands
2-4 Baby Jace
10-12 Other

So you only really have 10-12 other spells (outside DTT) to make Baby Jace useful. The questions are (1) whether those 10-12 other spells are better than Young Pyromancer and Delver (since they naturally go well with the cantrip shell); or, (2) whether traditional spells like Abrupt Decay, Lighting Bolt, or Thoughseize are good enough to run at 10-12 although that leaves you without a big win condition.

Question (2) kinda brings us to the realization that we still need to run a "win condition" so really that 10-12 is really more like 6-8 . . .

[bruizar]

I think running Snapcaster and Jace is excessive. They serve different roles. Jace can flashback powerful cards like Gifts Ungiven, whereas Snapcaster can flash into Dig Through Time to pull a Force of Will out of nowhere and seize the stack. Both are very strong and unique. The type of cards that favor Jace are generally more powerful spells due to the mana requirements. I'd be tempted to compare Jace to Goblin Welder for spells instead of to Snapcaster Mage. I think therefore that Jace does not belong in aggro type decks using Pyromancers and Delvers.

[Cire]

Even if you're not running Snap - you will still be running the Cantrip suit as it is necessary to reliably flip Baby Jace. If you're running the Cantrip Suit I am not sure why you wouldn't run Snap as it lets you make plays at what you just described. But lets say you are not going to run it, you still only have room for 10-12 high value spells. The question is whether those spells would rather be YP or Delver, if those spells don't justify Snap Caster and if they're worth it overall. (I know he doesn't belong in a YP/Delver deck, that's why I said you need to find a way to justify those high value spells as being better than YP/Delver, as they take the same spots) Really the starting point is finding 8 high value spells you really want to flashback with Baby Jace.

For example:

12 Cantrips
4 DTT
4 FOW
0-4 Snapcaster/DRS
22 Lands
2-4 Baby Jace
0-4 Win (?)
0-4 Abrupt Decay
0-4 Hymn to Torach
0-4 Removal
0-4 Thought Seize

Could be a decent starting point - but you really have to consider whether replacing all those black spells with YP/Delver would not just be a better deck.

[bruizar]

Well, I don't really think you need to build around Jace as, if things go well, you get several uses out of him and fuel delve with the loot. That means that Jace is a threat that must be dealt with, which Snapcaster isn't. Once Snapcaster resolved you have plenty of time to deal with the 2/1 because the real damage has already happened. Jace keeps giving the pain until you do something about it. That is the crucial distinction in my opinion. There's more to blue decks than delver. The card would be good in Omniscience by forcing an additional Show and Tell. Reanimator was already discussed. For non-combo decks, off the top of my head, I'd say a bug control list can naturally fit Jace in with targets like Toxic Deluge, Hymn to Tourach, Abrupt Decay, innocent blood and Maelstrom Pulse. Flashbacking those would be enough card advantage to pull ahead. The damage soaking and the low mana cost also improve bug control lists.

I do think that it will take some careful deckbuilding to place Jace into legacy, but it's definitely not the power level that prevents him from seeing play.

[Philipp2293]

I've been theorising a bit about Baby Jace, and I think you want to play him in a UBx shell. I think you'd like to run discard, since it clears the path for Jace, and is almost definitely a spell you can immediately flash back after the transformation against most decks. The second reason is Tasigur. I think he is an excellent finisher in this deck, and after his activation, even if they deny you spells, you can still flashback milled stuff with Jace, so I think they interact highly favourable. Aside the usual stuff (at least 8 cantrips, 3 Digs, 4 Forces) the other questions should be the splash colour:

Red: You get Pyromancer, Bolts, Blasts und SB options like Blood Moon. I think Bolt is in a sense the best removal together with Jace, since you can always flash it back to the dome. Also Kolaghan's command seems playable as value tool. Still you have to run some other removal to deal with bigger threats, Terminate, Toxic Deluge, Diabolic Edict come to mind.

White: You get Monastery Mentor, (maybe Stoneforge Mystic), Swords, Councils's Judgment and all the SB hatebears. You obviously have a very powerful threat and the better removal, but Jace seems to do lesser work, since you will often be stuck with situational stuff in the GY in comparison to bolt. I think I'd also run a singleton Unearth in this shell.

Green: You get Abrupt Decay, Pernicious Deeds and Goyfs. I don't think he belongs in a BUG shell, since compared to red and white you loose out on so many powerful options for a controllish deck, maybe I'm wrong, but in a Deed shell I'd run big Jace anyway.

[ESG]

@Philipp2293: Good ideas, and thanks for posting. I could see Thoughtseizes and Bolts pairing very well with the flip Jace. Possibly Vapor Snag, too.

[snorlaxcom]

Jace sounds sweet for combo decks combating discard where removal is sparce g2/3 and combining with thought scour could be a thing.

[Fox]

One of the main questions your deck needs to answer when deciding on Flip-Jace is whether or not you want a DTT instead. Best way to experiment would be for 4x dig decks to put jace in the 4th slot and see how it works; I think you'll be pleasantly surprised when your opening hand has a dig slot [jace] you can cast on turn 2, loot with [while pulling off the block+exile], and then planeswalker.

As far as Omnitell goes, it's a pretty good hedge vs StP decks as they'll generally only have blasts and counterspells post-board and Jace quickly becomes -1 FoW either being countered as cast/blasted or recasting the Show and Tell. If you're a deck that already commits to the board, DTT may be safer.

Always good to keep in mind that Jace doesn't actually give spells flashback, so you can fire off graveyard FoWs for alternate cost - though my favourite is double Massacre for 0 mana [pretty good vs entreat the angels].

[bruizar]

http://www.twitch.tv/cardtitan

jeskai jaceblade now live on eternal weekend. Hopefully jace gets some camera time

[ActionJunkie]

I'll go as far to say there are PLENTY of decks/setups where Jace, Vryn's Prodigy is better than Snapcaster Mage. The big disadvantage for Jace is recasting counterspells, but like someone mentioned, you can actually still do that if you are combo and somehow are running Jace. A big advantage of Jace that like everyone, including those who have actually tested him, seem to overlook is how easy it is to use Jace as a 1creature fog as you block and then flip when they attack. Also not having to add 1U to your flashback cost CAN NOT be over-stated especially in a format like Legacy.

New Jace made top8 @ Legacy Championship and the user said it was his best card in his main deck on his interview profile. If you haven't thoroughly tested new Jace in any deck, any format, full of instants and sorceries, you are doing yourself a huge disadvantage. And like Liliana of the Veil who almost always forces you to discard (+1), Jace loots so not only can you filter dead cards, but there is more incentive to playing multiple Jace though I do like the split of x2 Jace/x1 Snapcaster Holland used (but would go 3 Jace if there's room).

[Darkenslight]

I'll go as far to say there are PLENTY of decks/setups where Jace, Vryn's Prodigy is better than Snapcaster Mage. The big disadvantage for Jace is recasting counterspells, but like someone mentioned, you can actually still do that if you are combo and somehow are running Jace. A big advantage of Jace that like everyone, including those who have actually tested him, seem to overlook is how easy it is to use Jace as a 1creature fog as you block and then flip when they attack. Also not having to add 1U to your flashback cost CAN NOT be over-stated especially in a format like Legacy.

New Jace made top8 @ Legacy Championship and the user said it was his best card in his main deck on his interview profile. If you haven't thoroughly tested new Jace in any deck, any format, full of instants and sorceries, you are doing yourself a huge disadvantage. And like Liliana of the Veil who almost always forces you to discard (+1), Jace loots so not only can you filter dead cards, but there is more incentive to playing multiple Jace though I do like the split of x2 Jace/x1 Snapcaster Holland used (but would go 3 Jace if there's room).

It seems that people have forgotten just how good a 2-mana Merfolk Looter effect with upside is.

[bruizar]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/legacychamp15/top-8-player-profiles-2015-08-22

As an aside, the thought of running Unearth and Jace, Vryn's Prodigy makes me happy

[HSCK]

I will definitely be testing him in Grixis control this week.

[bruizar]

I'll go as far to say there are PLENTY of decks/setups where Jace, Vryn's Prodigy is better than Snapcaster Mage. The big disadvantage for Jace is recasting counterspells, but like someone mentioned, you can actually still do that if you are combo and somehow are running Jace. A big advantage of Jace that like everyone, including those who have actually tested him, seem to overlook is how easy it is to use Jace as a 1creature fog as you block and then flip when they attack. Also not having to add 1U to your flashback cost CAN NOT be over-stated especially in a format like Legacy.

New Jace made top8 @ Legacy Championship and the user said it was his best card in his main deck on his interview profile. If you haven't thoroughly tested new Jace in any deck, any format, full of instants and sorceries, you are doing yourself a huge disadvantage. And like Liliana of the Veil who almost always forces you to discard (+1), Jace loots so not only can you filter dead cards, but there is more incentive to playing multiple Jace though I do like the split of x2 Jace/x1 Snapcaster Holland used (but would go 3 Jace if there's room).

Being able to pitch a blue card to a Force of Will in the graveyard is very strong for combo because you protect your hand for 0 mana unlike Snapcaster Mage that would cost 3 mana at the minimum to protect a spell (via spell pierce) since Snapcaster gives flashback and Jace does not..

Perhaps Unmask can make its way into the legacy scene with Jace backup.

[TsumiBand]

I feel like paying mana for any other reasonable discard spell is still better than Unmask, even with Jace 12.0. Or whatever he's called. Jace-Vern. JV Allstar. Something dumb.

Isn't it the same boat as any Threshold card or Tarmogoyf - enabling it isn't a question, we're all cracking fetchlands and casting efficient spells and so it doesn't really require special means to make it work. The only thing you should ask is which card is it actually better than, and just replace that card.

[Richard Cheese]

I feel like paying mana for any other reasonable discard spell is still better than Unmask, even with Jace 12.0. Or whatever he's called. Jace-Vern. JV Allstar. Something dumb.

Isn't it the same boat as any Threshold card or Tarmogoyf - enabling it isn't a question, we're all cracking fetchlands and casting efficient spells and so it doesn't really require special means to make it work. The only thing you should ask is which card is it actually better than, and just replace that card.

ManBoyJace is real. Super cereal.

[Barook]

I've seen Ghirapur Aether Grid used as wincon in Lantern Control and now in Modern Affinity.

Maybe it could have a place in Legacy as well?

[MGB]

I feel like paying mana for any other reasonable discard spell is still better than Unmask, even with Jace 12.0. Or whatever he's called. Jace-Vern. JV Allstar. Something dumb.

Isn't it the same boat as any Threshold card or Tarmogoyf - enabling it isn't a question, we're all cracking fetchlands and casting efficient spells and so it doesn't really require special means to make it work. The only thing you should ask is which card is it actually better than, and just replace that card.

Maybe Werebear will make a comeback?