Magic Origins

[Lemnear]

http://i.imgur.com/Cj2HIz0.jpg

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/136/512/635589947137975285.jpg

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/136/511/635589947093602006.jpg

I guess, most of you have already heared of this sneaky announcement this weekend. It looks like this expansion will not only give more insight about the past of Nissa/Jace/Gideon/Liliana/Chandra, but throws up the question why there are two artworks of each planeswalker available (one pre-spark, one post-spark).

For me, this smells like a second coming of the double-face-cards for this expansion

[Lt. Quattro]

I was excited when I thought this was a throwback set based on magic's origins. Then I realized it was just another set based on the same group of jabroni planeswalkers not fit to hold urza's jock.

[Dice_Box]

Card's aside since I play Legacy, I have no great expectation of card's that effect me, I love a good story and this looks like a great time for that part of me.

[Finn]

I do not know if the movie comes out soon, but I have contended that the film simply must be about planeswalkers for it to have any hope of not sucking. My guess is that they are gearing up.

[apple713]

I do not know if the movie comes out soon, but I have contended that the film simply must be about planeswalkers for it to have any hope of not sucking. My guess is that they are gearing up.

speaking of movies and such, does anyone know anything about Magic: The Gathering - The Musical (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2553096/?ref_=nv_sr_1)?


EDIT***

I Found the video on youtube here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmIPqgMD8us&feature=share&list=UUzhdX0toYg7BztJuWswWroQ)

[Sylphnir]

Chandra*, no Garruk so far.
Hope they go out with a bang.

[Lemnear]

Chandra*, no Garruk so far.
Hope they go out with a bang.

Fixed. Thanks

[iamajellydonut]

Are we still expected to take this concept art direction seriously?

http://i.imgur.com/QzFKH35.jpg

[Ace/Homebrew]

For me, this smells like a second coming of the double-face-cards for this expansion
I struggle to think how this can be done in a way that 'feels' natural and is balanced...

You're thinking you cast them as a Legendary creature and then something triggers a flip?

[Lemnear]

I struggle to think how this can be done in a way that 'feels' natural and is balanced...

You're thinking you cast them as a Legendary creature and then something triggers a flip?

Not unlikely. We saw permanent-type changing flipovers in Kamigawa block as well. We also already saw a Flip-Walker in Garruk.

[H]

I think it is unlikely that they will be flip cards. Wizards already said the biggest impediment to doing more flip cards is the cost factor. A whole sheet just for 5 cards? Doesn't seem likely at all, plus the issue with how to collate them.

I am thinking more toward Legendary creatures, possibly with some sort of ability that lets you tutor for a Planeswalker of them?

[Dice_Box]

Or we might just see some Jaya Ballard, Task Mage style creatures come back with powers that hint at what they can do by not quite fully formed.

[TsumiBand]

I am thinking more toward Legendary creatures, possibly with some sort of ability that lets you tutor for a Planeswalker of them?

Grandeur confirmed in Magic Origins? :D

Jace the Ice Cream Vendor :1::u::u:
Legendary Creature - Human Chav

:u::u:: Put an ice counter on target permanent. It doesn't untap until it finishes its supper.

Grandeur - Discard another card named Jace the Ice Cream Vendor: Search your library for a Jace card and put that card onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library.

2/1

Man that wording sucks. "A Jace card". But it's the wording same as Goblin Matron, or any card that searches for a subtype. Also that reminds me, is Cateran Summons broken yet? Don't say Chameleon Colossus, swear to God

[Barook]

Are we still expected to take this concept art direction seriously?

http://i.imgur.com/QzFKH35.jpg
WTF is wrong with his hand? Immediately reminded me of this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHHB00Nu3Ak


I think it is unlikely that they will be flip cards. Wizards already said the biggest impediment to doing more flip cards is the cost factor. A whole sheet just for 5 cards? Doesn't seem likely at all, plus the issue with how to collate them.

I am thinking more toward Legendary creatures, possibly with some sort of ability that lets you tutor for a Planeswalker of them?
There are supposed to be two new mechanics. There's some kind of level up mechanic involved (not necessary the level up mechanic itself).

Question is how they're going to turn the legendary creatures into Planeswalkers. Take Liliana for example - she turned from a modest white healer to a black zombie hooker.

My money is still on flip cards, but I wouldn't be suprised if Wizards came up with a new, retarded mechanic to pull it off.

[iamajellydonut]

WTF is wrong with his hand? Immediately reminded me of this:

Oh, Jesus. I didn't even notice his hand. I was just focused on his looks-like-a-joke head. Where the hell is his pinky going?

[warfordium]

WTF is wrong with his hand?

(...)

My money is still on flip cards, but I wouldn't be suprised if Wizards came up with a new, retarded mechanic to pull it off.

uhm, excuse me sir, but if you look deep into the history of magic artwork there are many precedents in the lore for spell-casting having a transmogrifying effect on the body parts of the caster. in fact, i have reason to believe that the new mechanic will be a kind of level up system where various body parts ascend to planeswalker status one at a time while being tracked by a system of squish counters. frankly the community is finally sophisticated enough to handle multiple counter types on the same permanent and unless WOTC starts down this road they're going to run out of development space far too quickly. good day. /comicbookguy

[Barook]

Oh, Jesus. I didn't even notice his hand. I was just focused on his looks-like-a-joke head. Where the hell is his pinky going?
His pinky is one thing, but his way too short stick arms are a way bigger issue. Unless people from Jace's plane derive from a T-Rex.

[rufus]

His pinky is one thing, but his way too short stick arms are a way bigger issue. Unless people from Jace's plane derive from a T-Rex.

His left arm is (apparently) full length though... Maybe he's carrying a hidden midget on his back.

[Ace/Homebrew]

His left arm is (apparently) full length though...
That is an illusion due to perspective. His left arm actually attaches to his body at the hip, so both arms are the same length.
He is proportionate, just not symmetrical. :tongue:

[Sylphnir]

Pleasenodoublefacedcardspleasenodoublefacedcardspleasenodoublefacedcards...
Hate them. With passion.

[LOLWut]

I haven't even owned a video game system in a decade and a half, and I'm utterly burned out on video game art. Thanks, modern Magic. Bang-up job.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

All this art reminds me of late 90's PC adventure games

[Bed Decks Palyer]

All this art reminds me why I'm so much missing the old times.

Also, will they never stop with the Jacelilianachandraterezzetesperthgarruck bullcrap? It's more annoying than music in Tesco and quite similarly there's nowhere to run from it.
So dear WotC, would you just fuck off with Jace and co.? Got it?
Because I'm really, really, really tired of this whole Magic: the 90210.

[Barook]

All this art reminds me why I'm so much missing the old times.

Also, will they never stop with the Jacelilianachandraterezzetesperthgarruck bullcrap? It's more annoying than music in Tesco and quite similarly there's nowhere to run from it.
So dear WotC, would you just fuck off with Jace and co.? Got it?
Because I'm really, really, really tired of this whole Magic: the 90210.
Walkers are popular, so no.

Although there's at least some Jace fatigue (which even Maro admitted) - doesn't suprise me afte they shit out crappy versions after JMS.

[sjmcc13]

Unfortunately popular does not equal good, and some of them are definitely over used

There are 57 different planeswalker cards which include :
6 Garruk's
5 Jace's
5 Ajani's
4 Chandra's
3 Liliana
3 Elspeth's
3 Sarkhan
3 Sorin
2 Gideon's
2 Nissa
2 Tezzeret

Garruk Jace and Ajani have all been used to much, I would rather see then develop some of the less used (1-2 version walkers) over another Jace or Garruk.

[Sylphnir]

Neither Garruk nor Ajani are part of the next core set as far as we know; and they mentioned the intention to "replace" Jace with Tamiyo in the future as blues iconic pw.
At the end of the day it doesn't matter that much what name/artwork the new planeswalker has if it's unplayable regardless though.

[phonics]

Everyone and their mom is a planeswalker now. Might as well have grandma Betty from down the street be the next planeswalker for the core set.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Everyone and their mom is a planeswalker now. Might as well have grandma Betty from down the street be the next planeswalker for the core set.

They'd have to give Betty suspend because it takes all day to get to the battlefield from down the street with that bad hip.

[Ellomdian]

At the end of the day it doesn't matter that much what name/artwork the new planeswalker has if it's unplayable regardless though.

You grossly underestimate the popularity of ALL Planeswalkers with the casual/kitchen table/edh/whateverthehelltheyplaynow crowd. Most of the stores around town have pretty much every walker they have on display in a case, and they move a LOT of the 'bad' ones (I was just talking about this with one of the owners right after new years - they are putting together a 3rd case just for 'Casual' cards, because they move often enough.)

Granted, at the current print runs, they aren't worth very much, and if they're not playable in constructed formats, they won't be for a long time. But they will still sell sealed product.

[Barook]

and they mentioned the intention to "replace" Jace with Tamiyo in the future as blues iconic pw.
They mentioned that a while a go, yet here we are, with yet another Jace and still no other Tamiyo.

[Barook]

PAX spoilers are out, the planeswalker are legendary flip creatures that have a trigger condition to get flickered and return as PW. They also showed Liliana, which seemed quite playable, although she has to compete with her Veil version.

[H]

http://i.imgur.com/drEnqVH.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/DiTnq9m.png

[MD.Ghost]

http://i.imgur.com/drEnqVH.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/DiTnq9m.png Great for “Walking Dead “, works also with pox for value. Note that we get Walkers as Creatures, so Vial, Show & Tell, Zenith, Natural Order or Pod (remember modern ban) get new toys

[iamajellydonut]

Great for “Walking Dead “, works also with pox for value. Note that we get Walkers as Creatures, so Vial, Show & Tell, Zenith, Natural Order or Pod (remember modern ban) get new toys

Given that she's exactly the same cost as our current Queen, I can't see her having much application. I think I'd like her much more if she triggered off any creature dying.

That being said, 'walkers as creatures does present very interesting possibilities. Though there's a good chance they'll all be lackluster (crosses fingers for playable red 'walker) and not even worth GSZing.

[Dice_Box]

You would think that they could really push the power seeing as you have to do something to get to that power.

[thecrav]

Repeal just got lolzy

[iamajellydonut]

Repeal just got lolzy

It only gets lolzy if the planeswalkers don't suck and actually get run.

[maharis]

I <3 Repeal

I also <3 this new Liliana. Yes, I will play SFM, therapy, therapy, return SFM, thank you very much.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Vampire nighthawk gets played in the gate! This could really make the deck a... well tier 3 deck xD

[Meekrab]

PAX spoilers are out, the planeswalker are legendary flip creatures that have a trigger condition to get flickered and return as PW. They also showed Liliana, which seemed quite playable, although she has to compete with her Veil version.
Is there some flavor reason why they get exiled and return to the battlefield instead of just flipped? I haven't paid any attention to the story elements since back when the players were supposed to be Planeswalkers...

[Namida]

Is there some flavor reason why they get exiled and return to the battlefield instead of just flipped? I haven't paid any attention to the story elements since back when the players were supposed to be Planeswalkers...

I like the flavor of her just popping out of the plane and showing back up, but I think the reality of the situation is that if the card just flipped, it's a planeswalker card with zero loyalty counters on it and it immediately goes into your graveyard.

[Barook]

That being said, 'walkers as creatures does present very interesting possibilities. Though there's a good chance they'll all be lackluster (crosses fingers for playable red 'walker) and not even worth GSZing.
I didn't think about GSZ. That's an interesting possibility, but then again, it's Nissa, so I don't expect much from it since her flavor is Elf Hitler.


Repeal just got lolzy
So is Abrupt Decay. Garruk Relentless already had that problem with his flipped version.

[iamajellydonut]

it's Nissa

And the ship was lost with all hands on deck.

[Meekrab]

I like the flavor of her just popping out of the plane and showing back up, but I think the reality of the situation is that if the card just flipped, it's a planeswalker card with zero loyalty counters on it and it immediately goes into your graveyard.
"Transform lily, rebellious teenager and put X loyalty counters on her" would work just fine.

[Namida]

"Transform lily, rebellious teenager and put X loyalty counters on her" would work just fine.

It would work, but would it be a better design? I feel like it's awkward to have to print text on the card that is basically only there to make the card work correctly. There are any number of different flavor justifications you could give for the exile part, and blinking your card can actually have an effect on the game like saving it from removal, compared to loyalty counter text that would basically just say "You're a planeswalker card, now act like one."

[Sylphnir]

Double-faced cards... =( There goes all my hype down the drain.

[Meekrab]

It would work, but would it be a better design? I feel like it's awkward to have to print text on the card that is basically only there to make the card work correctly. There are any number of different flavor justifications you could give for the exile part, and blinking your card can actually have an effect on the game like saving it from removal, compared to loyalty counter text that would basically just say "You're a planeswalker card, now act like one."
I was wondering if there was a flavor reason for it because invoking the Exile zone to transform a flip card seems heavy-handed.

[TsumiBand]

Interesting non-functional change - this card refers to itself as 'her'. Compared to, like, Norin the Wary which says "it" in reference to itself.

Is this just the first time I've noticed cards using gender pronouns in reference to themselves. Heh.

Anyway, this is a flavor win IMHO and these cards have the benefit of being subject to whatever creature synergy they inherit - GSZ, Cavern of Souls, etc. Triggering them consistently may be another story, will have to see all the cards to know for sure, but already they are seated well in t erms of easy adoption.

[sjmcc13]

I was wondering if there was a flavor reason for it because invoking the Exile zone to transform a flip card seems heavy-handed.She is experiencing her first planes walk? leaving that world temporarily and coming back. So from other people's perspectives she is blinking out of existence and coming back

[Quizzlemanizzle]

I am expecting rules clarification for these new planeswalkers.

It should not be possible to have Liliana on the same side of the battlefield as a creature and her planeswalker side. I understand that you can't change the rules for other cases where the cards are completely separate like Karn Silver Golem and Karn Liberated or the new Liliana and LoTV or Teferi and Teferi planeswalker but when we are talking about the same card 1 side legendary creature and other side planeswalker than the legendary/planeswalker rules should be clarified to not allow both states at the same time.

[MD.Ghost]

I am expecting rules clarification for these new planeswalkers.

It should not be possible to have Liliana on the same side of the battlefield as a creature and her planeswalker side. I understand that you can't change the rules for other cases where the cards are completely separate like Karn Silver Golem and Karn Liberated or the new Liliana and LoTV or Teferi and Teferi planeswalker but when we are talking about the same card 1 side legendary creature and other side planeswalker than the legendary/planeswalker rules should be clarified to not allow both states at the same time.

I don't expecting rules clarification for these new planeswalkers. It can be difficult to flip the Walker-Creatures into the real Walker (and that is the goal!) Liliana can trigger herself with multiple "Legends", so it is a way to use more copies from the card and still profit. Note that she can't reanimate herself. So if you cast Liliana as a creature (and a 2/3 Lifelink for 3 isn't so powerfull!) and manage to flip her to a Planeswalker, i don't see why you can't profit from the possibility to cast a later drawn "Lili-Creature" and have both on the field.

For me it feels ok, to gain access to a medicore creature, try to flip it to a hopfully useful walker and than still (as a upside to the older walkers) be able to use additional drawn copies on the battlefield (and not hold them back in hand). Liliana's discard itself seems also much better, if you can use both parts simultaneously on the battlefield.

Otherwise i don't see the value in playing the new Liliana (and we talk only about a few decks) over the established one.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Just to clarify: What happens if my opponent wraths my lilli + another guy?

[Kathal]

@HdH_Cthulhu, nothing happens. Lilliana has to trigger, but since she is also dead she can't do it.

Greetings,
Kathal

[Begle1]

I think it blinks to make the transition cleaner, and avoid confusion when she has auras on her, is in the middle of combat, is being targeted by a spell, is affected by effects with memory, has +1/+1 counters, etc.

I like it.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

@HdH_Cthulhu, nothing happens. Lilliana has to trigger, but since she is also dead she can't do it.

Greetings,
Kathal

I am 99.99% sure that you are wrong. This is not how Grim Haruspex, Blood Artist, Glissa or the Necromancer work. When you sweep the board they still see that and trigger. So Liliana definitely still triggers. In fact if you have 4 creatures plus Liliana she should put 4 triggers on the stack

The questions are:

1. Can the trigger resolve since it basically targets Liliana herself?
I would think yes, Liliana would be exiled instead of going to the graveyard and then ETB on her planeswalker side along with a zombie token.

2. If the trigger goes 4 times on the stack what happens?
1st trigger brings back Liliana as PW plus a 2/2, 2nd trigger can't return her on her planeswalker side anymore? Do you still get the tokens from the other triggers?

Theoretically if the opponent sweeps the board you should get a Liliana PW plus X tokens. Translation: Do NOT sweep the board against this Liliana or you are toast, unless you use Terminus or Anger of the gods.

[Tylert]

I am 99.99% sure that you are wrong. This is not how Grim Haruspex, Blood Artist, Glissa or the Necromancer work. When you sweep the board they still see that and trigger. So Liliana definitely still triggers. In fact if you have 4 creatures plus Liliana she should put 4 triggers on the stack

The questions are:

1. Can the trigger resolve since it basically targets Liliana herself?
I would think yes, Liliana would be exiled instead of going to the graveyard and then ETB on her planeswalker side along with a zombie token.

2. If the trigger goes 4 times on the stack what happens?
1st trigger brings back Liliana as PW plus a 2/2, 2nd trigger can't return her on her planeswalker side anymore? Do you still get the tokens from the other triggers?

Theoretically if the opponent sweeps the board you should get a Liliana PW plus X tokens. Translation: Do NOT sweep the board against this Liliana or you are toast, unless you use Terminus or Anger of the gods.

I played Glissa for a very long time in standard.
When you wrath with glissa on the battlfield, Every creature goes to the graveyard including Glissa, but she sees other creatures going to the graveyard and triggers.
However, the trigger doesn't go on the stack before the wrath resolution, so glissa is in the graveyard.
That would be the same for Liliana. She is definitely in the graveyard when her trigger is put on the stack.

So the question would be more something like this: does the trigger resolves partially? (meaning it puts a 2/2 zombie on the battlefield). As the 2/2 is only put when you exile lilian and put her on the battlefield, that won't happen.

[Dice_Box]

Everything goes to the grave, but when State based actions are checked they check last based information.

Lily will only trigger once, when she flips she makes a token, she only flips once. It will not matter if four creatures die, you only get that one token.

Also wiping the board should flip her, that's why her text states "Another non token creature dies".

[Quizzlemanizzle]

Everything goes to the grave, but when State based actions are checked they check last based information.

Lily will only trigger once, when she flips she makes a token, she only flips once. It will not matter if four creatures die, you only get that one token.

Also wiping the board should flip her, that's why her text states "Another non token creature dies".

Why would she only trigger once? Even if the other triggers do not resolve anymore she should still trigger multiple times.
That would mean if you have 4 grizzly bears and lily and your opponent casts Wrath of God, he could then Stifle the trigger.

When you have Blood Artist and 4 Grizzly Bears and your opponent casts Wrath he loses 5 life, not 1. In my understanding he could not stifle to prevent the full 5 life loss. He could only stifle to prevent 1 life from my understanding.

[Dice_Box]

I mean the token trigger not the Transform trigger and it will only happen once because the token triggers on the resolution of the Transformation.

[MD.Ghost]

It seems that it isn't the problem that Liliana will trigger, the problem is - what happens with liliana, while the trigger is on the stack?!

If you sweep the board with Liliana and other dudes, the "whenever another creature dies" effect will trigger - but it is connected with "exile Liliana" BUT if Liliana gets already killed, she can't be exiled if her trigger resolves, because she already dies (or is exiled = swords to plowshards).

So it seems, the trigger will resolves, but checks that Liliana can't be exiled anymore and the effect will fail (no token, no multiple token, no planeswalker).

Right?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

I dont know. The trigger says exile her. I can exile her if she is in her graveyard xD, it doesnt say exile her from the battlefield or something. But yeah I really dont know!

[sjmcc13]

I dont know. The trigger says exile her. I can exile her if she is in her graveyard xD, it doesnt say exile her from the battlefield or something. But yeah I really dont know! The ability would need to state the graveyard in order to be able to affect a card in it.
Once it enters the yard it becomes a new object, and the ability can not see it to exile it.

It also states other creature so she will not trigger off herself dying, as that would not work, and the trigger could allow for shenanigans to be played.

[aluisiocsantos]

The art makes me want to puke.

[Kathal]

So, my answer was quit unclear (and also a little bit incorrect), so here again:

When a Wrath gets played, everything dies. Lilli sees that and triggers. Since she changes zones, she basically becomes a "new card" (see 400.7 (400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence.)). There are some exception to this rule, which aren't relevant in this case. So the trigger will resolve but it can't find original Lilli anymore, hence no flip.

Greetings,
Kathal

[TsumiBand]

The ability would need to state the graveyard in order to be able to affect a card in it.
Once it enters the yard it becomes a new object, and the ability can not see it to exile it.

It also states other creature so she will not trigger off herself dying, as that would not work, and the trigger could allow for shenanigans to be played.

See, I thought that was the case, but I looked at things like Karmic Guide and everything with Haunt and now I just have no idea.

I want to say that it should be considered a new card when it changes zones and so it shouldn't apply because the only time it could have triggered was while it was on the battlefield. So it didn't trigger when *it* died and was therefore in the graveyard (like Karmic Guide et others) but its trigger would occur for its "in play" instance and not its "in graveyard" instance. That's not really a great way to word it, but I'm leaning towards that as being the way it would work.

[Spam]

Still hope for "Jace the Ice Cream Vendor" to see the light of day.
As for Lilly, I don't see that big of a problem, is actually nice to see back some creatures that aren't just super unfair from the start. (Siege Rhino, TNN anyone?!)

[Sylphnir]

I'm aboard the hype train again! :o

senatorofinnistrad asked: Will there be other double-faced cards in Origins, or will it be limited to the plabeswalkers?

MaRo: The five planeswalkers are the only double-faced cards in Magic Origins.
[source] (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/113619337618/will-there-be-other-double-faced-cards-in-origins)

[TsumiBand]

I think this tidbit is already making its rounds on the Internets, but I just had to facepalm a little when I realized the non-bo that is "Humans that transform into Planeswalkers" and Moonmist.

Coincidentally, I was sorting some Magic cards over this weekend and I came across Soul Seizer (probably on March 15th, now that I think about it... HOLY SHIT) and I realized that it's kind of a goofy mechanic fail to put text that's only relevant to the back side on the front of the card. That whole "If this transforms, attach it to target creature" thing. It could be my noob-level programmer showing but like... that's not very good separation of concerns :/

I mean Huntmaster of the Fells -- "Whenever this creature transforms into CARDNAME" is on either side of the card, so when it turns into HotF its own ability is on the 'right side', not the opposite side. Just using the word "As" instead of "Whenever" would let an Origins walker flip without all the exile and return-with-loyalty-counters stuff. Even some reminder ability like "Firstspark (this gets loyalty counters equal to its starting loyalty as it transforms into a planeswalker)" or just... anything that keeps a dumb Innistrad common from being a creature removal spell.

The real problem is probably acting like the back of the card has in-game real estate, right -- the back of the card is really great for hiding information (in-hand, or becoming a 2/2 Grey Ogre), not very good for containing it. And my gripe isn't severe, really -- I don't envy the folks who have to try and make things work within the established rules of the game after hearing creative folks and/or other influences say silly shit like "no, only planeswalkers get to create emblems even though things like Stigma Lasher would be a lot simpler if they could". It's more of a random observation than anything, that and the whole idea that a card to make Werewolves transform also makes Planeswalkers die a horrifying, state-based death is funny to me. Liliana be like "oh look it's a full moon *poof* AUGH *POOF*"

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Double-faced cards are crime against humanity, Moonmist or not.

[Lord Seth]

I kinda like double faced cards. Don't understand why some people seem to despise them so much.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Appreciation of the game's early art and hatred of DFC are probably the only areas BDP and I share common ground. :tongue:


RE: Soul Seizer - I find it stupid that the front of the card 'targets' the creature the back side enchants... Shouldn't this work like Bound in Silence when a Rebel tutors for it? (the card enters the battlefield and attaches to a creature without ever targeting it, which I believe gets around hexproof and protection)

DFC are bad and you should feel bad...

[ESG]

I kinda like double faced cards. Don't understand why some people seem to despise them so much.

Because having to remove your card from a sleeve and return it to the sleeve multiple times per game is really annoying and detracts from the game experience. It also renders most lightly colored sleeves useless because you can see through the back enough to tell which cards are double-faced and which aren't. Clear sleeves are obviously out entirely. Then there's the whole part about how the cards backs don't fit in with each other. One of the great things about Magic was that all the card backs were the same, which was iconic design and concealed the identity of the card. Plus, drafting with double-faced cards is awful. I don't see how anyone could enjoy checklists more than the real cards.

[Star|Scream]

Because having to remove your card from a sleeve and return it to the sleeve multiple times per game is really annoying and detracts from the game experience. It also renders most lightly colored sleeves useless because you can see through the back enough to tell which cards are double-faced and which aren't. Clear sleeves are obviously out entirely. Then there's the whole part about how the cards backs don't fit in with each other. One of the great things about Magic was that all the card backs were the same, which was iconic design and concealed the identity of the card. Plus, drafting with double-faced cards is awful. I don't see how anyone could enjoy checklists more than the real cards.

I just use the regular cards in my deck and have extra versions in perfect fits that i use to denote flipping. I actually use foil versions for those which I think is kinda cool.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Because having to remove your card from a sleeve and return it to the sleeve multiple times per game is really annoying and detracts from the game experience. It also renders most lightly colored sleeves useless because you can see through the back enough to tell which cards are double-faced and which aren't. Clear sleeves are obviously out entirely. Then there's the whole part about how the cards backs don't fit in with each other. One of the great things about Magic was that all the card backs were the same, which was iconic design and concealed the identity of the card. Plus, drafting with double-faced cards is awful. I don't see how anyone could enjoy checklists more than the real cards.
My original reply made all the good points you mentioned, but I decided against posting it because some smart ass would point out Wyvern backed Fallen Empires exist. Turns out I'm that smart ass. :rolleyes:

[phonics]

I just use the regular cards in my deck and have extra versions in perfect fits that i use to denote flipping. I actually use foil versions for those which I think is kinda cool.

This should be how all transform cards should be played, it is really the only 'elegant' solution to the design that wotc came up with.

[Ace/Homebrew]

This should be how all transform cards should be played, it is really the only 'elegant' solution to the design that wotc came up with.
Isn't this a problem for large scale events? I remember being told at GP NJ that your deckbox can only contain your 60-75 cards and the inclusion of any other cards would... I dunno, mean your deck list isn't accurate or something. I half payed attention because it didn't apply to me.

[Cire]

I think this tidbit is already making its rounds on the Internets, but I just had to facepalm a little when I realized the non-bo that is "Humans that transform into Planeswalkers" and Moonmist.

I reacted the same way. At first I was like "OOH, Cool maybe there will be a PW that makes Moonmist playable" and then I realized. . . and was "Ha, a spell that turns some people into Werewolves, but god forbid you have the spark - cause then it kills you."

[Barook]

I reacted the same way. At first I was like "OOH, Cool maybe there will be a PW that makes Moonmist playable" and then I realized. . . and was "Ha, a spell that turns some people into Werewolves, but god forbid you have the spark - cause then it kills you."
I think the notion that you can literally gas the new Flipwalkers is pretty hilarious. That's some Nazi shit right there.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I kinda like double faced cards. Don't understand why some people seem to despise them so much.
Because they invalidate/violate one of the traits/rules of a card game. They are also fuck ugly.
Plus what ESG wrote.

[Lord Seth]

Because having to remove your card from a sleeve and return it to the sleeve multiple times per game is really annoying and detracts from the game experience. It also renders most lightly colored sleeves useless because you can see through the back enough to tell which cards are double-faced and which aren't. Clear sleeves are obviously out entirely. Then there's the whole part about how the cards backs don't fit in with each other. One of the great things about Magic was that all the card backs were the same, which was iconic design and concealed the identity of the card. Everything you just listed is solved by simply using the checklist cards.


Plus, drafting with double-faced cards is awful. I don't see how anyone could enjoy checklists more than the real cards.I'll give you drafting, but even that I don't see as more than a minor annoyance.

I can see people sorta disliking them, but the sheer hatred some people have baffles me.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Everything you just listed is solved by simply using the checklist cards.


I'm not in the extreme hate camp, but checklist cards are like using sharpied proxies. Even if they're legal in the tournament they're definitely not flavorful or fun to play with. Flavor means a lot in games like this, no one would play this game if it only had the numbers and replaced all flavor-words like "graveyard" with "discard Pile" and every card just had +/-# on it.

[Dice_Box]

It's a mechanical answer to a mechanical problem.

[Lord Seth]

I'm not in the extreme hate camp, but checklist cards are like using sharpied proxies. Even if they're legal in the tournament they're definitely not flavorful or fun to play with. Flavor means a lot in games like this, no one would play this game if it only had the numbers and replaced all flavor-words like "graveyard" with "discard Pile" and every card just had +/-# on it.

Yeah, but that's why you have the copy of your card with you (either unsleeved or in a clear sleeve), to put it on top of the sleeved checklist card while playing. This arrangement solves the problems listed. You don't have to remove it from the sleeve and put it back if it transforms (you can simply flip it over), and you don't have to worry about the the card's back showing through the sleeve because the actual card isn't in the regular sleeves. I suppose you do have to reach into your deck box to get the requisite card after you cast the checklist card, but that's no more cumbersome than pulling out a token.

You cite flavor, but if anything, the flavor is a point in favor of double-faced cards compared to the old flip cards, because you get the full-art illustrations for both parts of the card rather than them trying to shove two pictures into one frame that's already smaller than usual.

I don't know, I just don't get the extreme hatred some people have towards double faced cards. Yeah, they have a few annoyances, but the stuff you can do with them that you couldn't do otherwise (have the aforementioned dual illustrations, but from a more functional view just have room to put the card text for the more complicated ones) seems to me to make up for their idiosyncrasies. I can understand someone thinking the stuff you couldn't do without double-faced cards isn't worth the minor annoyances they bring, but that's a far cry from the seething anger it seems to inspire in some players.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I mean, I enjoy the mechanics they tried to bring to the game, it's just a hassle to really play with them. They aren't like tokens in that having extras in my deckbox is considered cheating. Money isn't really a barrier, so I would prefer just having 1 unflipped card in my deck and a flipped version in a different sleeve in my deckbox. But even then it's worse than tokens since swapping the unflipped version with a flipped one in a different sleeve isn't legal (at least, I think it isn't). So then I have to probably do something more along the lines of attaching the unflipped version to my flipped version so that it isn't ambiguous what's going on.

But even that's pretty cluttered and tapping/untapping could lead the way to them becoming slightly unattached and misrepresenting that you have both a flipped and unflipped on the board.

I generally just remove it from my sleeve to flip my card, but taking my perfect fitted card out of the second sleeve makes me cringe as a general rule (and even worse for players who don't double sleeve). It seems like a poor solution to make people unsleeve anything during tournament play. Maybe if they made the flipped version of something like Delver of Secrets into one of those tokens similar to the Morph and Manifest tokens, it could solve the problems. That's kind of a crappy solution though if you couldn't find the token but had the unflipped version of the card.

[Tylert]

Everything you just listed is solved by simply using the checklist cards.

I'll give you drafting, but even that I don't see as more than a minor annoyance.

I can see people sorta disliking them, but the sheer hatred some people have baffles me.

Drafting? I liked how it changed a little bit the dinamycs of a draft by being able to read signals a little bit more clearly.
I liked also how it changes the CMC of a card. I mean, it's a nice design with obvious disadvantages for a paper game... However, you can just not play a delver decks and never have a problem with those DFC (and aslo not Nic fit which plays sometime Garruk the relentless?).

[TsumiBand]

While Limited is a neat environment and I've come to appreciate it more and more over the last few years, I don't know why every set has to appeal to every format.

I mean I understand why this board would evaluate them all for their potential in Legacy, obviously. But the way people talk, it's almost as if they want every set to hit this magical sweet spot between being viable and exciting in Old Eternal, EDH, Limited, and maybe Modern if they're professional drunkards. Double-faced cards go a long way towards showcasing that, as a design goal, to try and hit that mystical sweet spot is a bit like painting a bullseye on a pigeon in Arkansas and hitting it with a spitball shot from the Space Needle.

[Tylert]

While Limited is a neat environment and I've come to appreciate it more and more over the last few years, I don't know why every set has to appeal to every format.

Because brewing is the most interresting part of the game and that we need new cards playable in each format to do that? :)

[Richard Cheese]

I agree with both sides of this argument. On the one hand, brewing is awesome. Especially for people like me, that can't seem to stick to one deck for more than a few weeks at a time.

OTOH, I don't think you want every set to have a bunch of new Legacy staples. Part of the appeal of eternal formats is the slower pace of change. I actually like it from a brewing perspective too, because while it's a very tough puzzle to solve, you have plenty of time to tweak and test incremental changes. Nobody's shaking the etch-a-sketch every 6 months.

I think the best case is when Legacy gets a couple strong cards and a few fringe playables in ever block. It keeps the pace of change bearable without things getting too stale. A lot of people are probably just antsy right now because we got a few bombs in RTR, then a bunch of really boring sets in a row.

[Star|Scream]

Isn't this a problem for large scale events? I remember being told at GP NJ that your deckbox can only contain your 60-75 cards and the inclusion of any other cards would... I dunno, mean your deck list isn't accurate or something. I half payed attention because it didn't apply to me.

No, not at all. You are allowed to have flip cards in your deckbox as well as token cards as long as they are distinguishable (i.e. different sleeves, no sleeves, perfect fits) from your main and sideboard.

I specifically asked the head judge at GP DC about this 2 years ago.

[GenghisTom]

Space Needle.

Go hawks!

Anyway, flip cards are fine. They just fixed the Kamigawa flip cards by giving each version a full side of art.
I love taking my delver out of the sleeve, flipping it, putting it back in, then attacking for 3. It's the highlight of every match.
There's only a few in existence and that's fine - if half of the cards ever printed were flip cards the game would be a nightmare to play.
But a dash of something odd never hurt anyone.
Wizards knows how to test the environment before doing more of something.

Just like wasabi, a little bit spruces things up, but if the whole meal is wasabi, well...

[TsumiBand]

Because brewing is the most interresting part of the game and that we need new cards playable in each format to do that? :)

That's pretty subjective though, right - some folks never brew or have no strength in that area of Magic, so they are content to netdeck and just try and play well.

I realize it's hard to put into words but, ultimately you've got to concede that consistently designing sets that would do well in every "Major Format" in Magic would be an incredibly difficult task without subjecting the game to all kinds of power creep and/or narrow printings. Like, we can't just see an Abrupt Decay in every set; it's a well-designed card that fits a very, very narrow trench wherein the nature and speed of Standard as of late has been to enable that midrange to the point where AD is pretty good but not dominating, in Modern it hits a bunch of efficient things and is quite good, and in Legacy where everything is at a cost-to-effect ratio of the highest order (maybe I mean lowest order? who fucken knows) AD will hit just about anything worth hitting.

OH BUT WAIT ITS NOT VERY GOOD IN EDH BECAUSE EVERYTHING COSTS 12. You might gank a Sol Ring but who gives a shit. Of course there are "good targets" for it, but it's not nearly as widely applicable in EDH as it is in Legacy. So it's "passable" and very very metagame dependent. Really there are no fantastic spot removal spells in multiplayer; when player A kills player B's permanent, that's card advantage for player C and they didn't have to do a damn thing.

I mean truly, what a daunting task that would be, to ensure that everyone got their wish for every format. So DFCs screw up draft; lame sauce. But in Constructed it provides a legitimate mechanic that shapes the game, if only via Delver of Secrets for Legacy (Huntmaster of the Fells was a real guy in Standard for a hot minute, maybe Modern too, I have no clue).

This happens all the time, or at least for as long as I've been playing. Morph was widely regarded as slow and clunky and an attempt to capitalize on Yu-Gi-Oh's rising star ("I play Grinning Demon in defense mode -- oh I mean as a morph") but once people realized that it was really good against Mana Drain and that a 4/5 lifelink flyer was actually really really good against aggro -- most lifelink-style strategies were not costed to be considered playable at the time -- so Exalted Angel started showing in Vintage and Legacy. And it was perfect for limited - it was pretty much impossible to not have a turn 3 play in Onslaught draft. Last time I checked though, it's horse-ass in Commander because small things die and Morphs are real small, and for all that mana you can almost always get a much better creature that's already awesome instead of a face down dork.

So I guess tl;dr I don't think it matters if a set hits every format because I don't think it should try, because not only will it be beyond frustrating to conceive of such a set but then you have to follow that set with something else, and the minute a set is notably dragging behind the most recent one in terms of speed or power, the fanbase just flays everyone at R&D. "OMG this set is ballstastic compared to [insert mystical set for everyone] I can't believe these guys think this shit is acceptable fuck wizards i hope they die in a fire" and so on. Who the hell wants to deal with that shit? Better to give sets focus, or at least, *try* to give sets focus, and if you bail then at least you meant well.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Everything you just listed is solved by simply using the checklist cards.

Yeah, humans are really good at overcoming problems.
Saying that, I kinda like how Wizards solved the problem they themselves created.

Aslo, stop with the "extreme hatred" phrase, please, it's becoming a minor hindrance. Simply read what ESG wrote and acknowledge that there are people who (dis)like the mentioned aspects of DFC. Something something gusto, but you cannot tell that the DFC did not bring additional ballast/futility/shit into a game that's already turning to shit.

What I dislike about DFCs is that they are gaming pieces that simply do not work alone in a context of a card game, more specifically in context of MtG, a game with uniform backside that prevents the cards from being recognizable... stop with Alliances right now!
DFCs are a stuff that's not only perfectly stupid design and one that opens space for far far too many possibilities - seriously, I don't think we need a card with two modes and six different abilities -, but they also need additional tools to function in a normal deck, even more tools than the blooddy sharpied-proxy. Be it chekcbox card or proxy or Italian foil or w/e else that's hiding in your cardbox waiting to be used, it's not the actual card that can function in a MtG game/deck, at least not on the very basic level. And yeah, even if that's something as minor as "use proper sleeves", it still makes the card functionless, or annoyance or however-you-name-it.

Like if there is not already enough of secondary "playing" and additional ballast with all the necessary tokens, emblems, flipcards/DFC. Magic lost lots of its elegance (although one may argue that the old sets were stinky piles of weird, and sure they were) and DFC are the prime example of what should IMAO being avoided in a damned card game with otherwise uniform backs.

I like the old Magic, one that ended with Alliances at latest, and I'm pretty fine with the whole old frame Magic as well. But what I namely dislike about new MtG are those pushed things that sell the cards to Your Usual Nerd, be it PWs and any other crappy stuff, but this is still debatable and frankly it doesn't change how the game fundamentaly works/looks. (Although the rules garbage linked to PWs is what I surely could live without. And contrary to PWs, what plus the DFCs brought is so minor for so much of a hassle, that I cannot justify their existance, at least, again, in context of MtG.)

DFCs are just another part of the set of mechanics (both gaming and/or rulings) that turned this game that I once liked into something that I simply cannot really appreciate anymore. Back when I started, MtG was about being a powerful warlord that leads an amazing army, or a mage that summons a force of nature to aid in his cause, etc., while nowadays Magic is more like an excercise in shuffling technics and a con artist training in shell game "where is BS, here is BS, look the BS is here, can you find the BS?"

Do not like.

Back to Dragons of Tarkir?

[Cire]

I think the notion that you can literally gas the new Flipwalkers is pretty hilarious. That's some Nazi shit right there.

That's pretty freaking dark.

[TsumiBand]

Not a spoiler, just -- interesting to note, I guess.


tsumiband asked:
Does it bug you at all that Moonmist - a card apparently intended to work very well with Innistrad - is a weird sort of planeswalker kill spell regarding what's currently known about Magic Origins? Is there a weird sort of flavor fail going on there, where something that is good for lycanthropic humans is actually pretty terrible for humans with a latent spark?


Magic is going to have quirky card interactions. It’s a nature of being a trading card game. I see it more of a feature than a bug.

So a two-mana insta-jib for Origins walkers is NBD. Eh, meh.

Come to think of it I think people were like "mirrodin sucks because Shatterstorm is a card" or whatever, and that didn't actually end up being the case, so who the hell knows.

[Barook]

There are so many flavor fails in the vastness of MtG, I wouldn't bother about that one.

Stuff like Birds of Paradise wielding a Batterskull, or X Mountain Goats being as scary as a huge X/X monster, or Emmara Tandris.

[thecrav]

First non-DFC card was spoiled today. (http://i.imgur.com/GiUk9E7.jpg) Almost certainly not legacy playable at 3CC for a creature. I guess this means we should start learning more very soon.

[iGrok]

Oh man, are we getting "Legendary Matters" back as a theme? I can't wait!

/s

[MGB]

Interesting... so he's essentially an AEtherspouts on a body.

The problem is that he only triggers when the creatures have already damaged you. I would have liked to have seen this trigger on creatures simply "attacking" you, so you could flash this in before combat damage is resolved and really create a massive tempo swing.

As it stands, he provides an interesting (if slow and clunky) way to deal with True Name Nemesis.

[Barook]

Oh man, are we getting "Legendary Matters" back as a theme? I can't wait!

/s
They throw in more legends in general into their sets since Commander became a thing. I wouldn't read too much into that.

[YamiJoey]

Interesting... so he's essentially an AEtherspouts on a body.

The problem is that he only triggers when the creatures have already damaged you. I would have liked to have seen this trigger on creatures simply "attacking" you, so you could flash this in before combat damage is resolved and really create a massive tempo swing.

As it stands, he provides an interesting (if slow and clunky) way to deal with True Name Nemesis.

If it wasthe latter, it'd be pretty absurd. Ætherspouts, but it exiles everything and makes a body.

[MGB]

If it wasthe latter, it'd be pretty absurd. Ætherspouts, but it exiles everything and makes a body.

It wouldn't be absurd in Legacy. It'd be *decent* in Legacy, but it would still be a 3WW dude nonetheless, which is really stretching it cost-wise for playability.

Of course, with my wording, it would probably be absurd in Standard and be played in every Type 2 deck - and that's what Wizards really cares about: how do their new cards interact in Standard, Block, Limited, and Draft?

[Barook]

Article was up early, should be up in about 1.5 hours again. (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/evergreen-eggs-ham-2015-06-08)

Prowness and Scry are now reusable evergreen keywords. Expect them to show up more often.

Also the "must be blocked by two or more creatures" is now keyworded as Menace.

Especially the scry thing is interesting. Maybe they're going to print good card selection in nonblue colors. Just kidding, they're going to bring us more broken blue shit, as usual.

[iamajellydonut]

Scry being evergreen should hopefully shore up some issues with consistency in other colors. I'm worried about its long term effects though.


Also the "must be blocked by two or more creatures" is now keyworded as Menace.

This is the dumbest fucking keyword ever. It's also a terrible replacement for Fear, and there is definitely no reason for Prowess to be evergreen. Also, RIP Protection. Though I dunno why they didn't put Regenerate down there with an asterisk, too.

[Kathal]

This is the dumbest fucking keyword ever. It's also a bad sign that they're keywording such an uncommon feature and there is definitely no reason for Prowess to be evergreen.

Read the article, he explains there why it got a keyword and why Prowess got promoted to evergreen.

@All, I'm more happy for scry, because maybe he print some playable scry cards in the near future (for modern, for legacy they are obviously to weak).

Greetings,
Kathal

[MGB]

Prowess is actually a very clean, flavorful mechanic that seems worthy of evergreen status. In fact, I'm kind of surprised that the (roughly) Quirion Dryad effect hadn't been fleshed out and keyworded many years ago. It's a pretty obvious jump to make from "+1/+1 counters on X-colored spells" to "+1/+1 until EOT for each noncreature spell".

[iamajellydonut]

Read the article

I edited my post as you quoted me. It's still a dumbass substitution that shouldn't be used frequently enough to get keyworded and I still don't see the need for Prowess to stick around. Want to use their effects on cards? Great. But being keyworded implies that we're going to get far more cards than actually necessary.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Scry is a great mechanic, but I fear it is going to promote lazy design in the next few sets.

"Let's just add Scry to all our classic spells! What's old is new again." :frown:

[Ace/Homebrew]

It's a terrible replacement for Fear.
You mean Intimidate, which was a terrible replacement for Fear. :tongue:

[iamajellydonut]

You mean Intimidate, which was a terrible replacement for Fear. :tongue:

Same diff. I can't honestly say I was a fan of either of the previous iterations, but the third time isn't necessarily the charm. At a certain point, can't it just be accepted that an idea is shit and that it needs to be scrapped rather than try to hobble it along?

[Ace/Homebrew]

At a certain point, can't it just be accepted that an idea is shit and that it needs to be scrapped rather than try to hobble it along?
You'll never get a job working for Wizards with THAT attitude!

[iamajellydonut]

You'll never get a job working for Wizards with THAT attitude!

"What do you mean they don't like Nissa?! Try it again!"

[TsumiBand]

It's a little weird to keyword Two-Headed (Menace) but whatever. Would have preferred it be Menace X since the occasional "three or more" sneaks in there, but sure keyword it.

I'm glad they put protection on the backburner though - it was this weird ability that kept showing up on small White creatures even though Blue was clearly much better at it. It makes room for far more interactive abilities, like hexproof and indestructible.

:/

[sjmcc13]

I can not read the article at work, but I am ok with Scry, would be more OK wit it if I did not think it would just be used as an enabler for sloppy design.

Prowess I am not Ok with, There is what 3 prowess creatures that see and real amounts of play? 1 because it is undercosted for its base stats (1/2 haste for 1) and anther because it is one of their stupidly broken "I win the game if you can not remove me" cards. It is a horrible mechanic, that only makes sense to them because they have no clue what interaction really is, and have echo chambered themselves into believing that creature combat is all that matters. It is the most anti blue ability they have ever tried to shoehorn into blue. Blue is the color of trickery and stealth, which prowess does not pull off. blue did not need a combat keyword, it needs them to remember that the game is not about nothing but the red zone and blue is supposed to be the color that stalls and sneaks through a damage a little at a time.

Protection depends on how rarely they use it. The ability should be something that pops up regularly.

The problem with these changes is it is just more down the path to magic being 100% focused on creature combat, With no interaction other then buffing your creatures and hindering/removing your opponents. They have all but killed stack interaction, and if they had not given thoughtseize a reprint to drop the price and sell packs I would not be surprised if there was next to no discard/hand interaction in Standard.

[Shawon]

Grafted Skullcap lives on, in power creep

http://media.wizards.com/2015/origins_askdf9aj2399v/en_oiCrCm5i6g.png

[Cire]

Some sort of card advantage for dragon stompy seems neat?

[iamajellydonut]

Grafted Skullcap lives on, in power creep

Time to pre-order sixteen of them.

Hoooly shit that fucker is good.

[Lemnear]

Grafted Skullcap lives on, in power creep

http://media.wizards.com/2015/origins_askdf9aj2399v/en_oiCrCm5i6g.png

would be sooooo awesome as 3R for Vintage UBA Staxx

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Scry as an evergreen keyword isn't a bad thing, but I'm a little disappointed that Cycling still hasn't been promoted to that status yet. It serves a similar purpose in allowing for more consistency, but also opens up a lot more design space (see when-you-cycle-effects in Onslaught, Time Spiral, and Alara or the different kinds of cycling).

Menace is kind of weird. It doesn't really fit Black at all, being traditionally Red (Two-Headed Giant/Dragon); there's only one Black creature (Kederekt Creeper) that has ever had the mechanic with the rest being overwhelmingly Red with a couple Green critters and Wind Spirit (because blue is always sticking its fingers in the pie). Moreover, it's going to cause some awkward growing pains as designers adapt to it, especially in Limited. Madcap Skills shows that this effect at Common can be rather harsh, even if that may have been a peculiarity of that format.

Plus, I still don't understand why Wizards has shitcanned Landwalk, Fear, and Intimidate for non-interactivity yet continues to print plenty of unblockable critters or effects that make things unblockable.

Ambivalent on Prowess. It's not a bad mechanic, but it's kind of underwhelming. I guess it's kind of cool that it changes up the way people play spells, giving an incentive to play non-creature spells in the first main phase to shake up combat math, but I don't think it has a ton of depth.

Really like the new dragon. It's an interesting design that is powerful, but doesn't jam in every deck with Mountains, having a serious drawback; not the blatant power-creep we've gotten so used to seeing. No reason for it to be Mythic, of course, but I think it's long since become obvious that Wizards doesn't give a damn about the original outline for Mythics they put out in Alara.

[MGB]

Grafted Skullcap lives on, in power creep

http://media.wizards.com/2015/origins_askdf9aj2399v/en_oiCrCm5i6g.png

I posted this in the Dragon Stompy thread...


I think this guy could be an auto 4-of in Dragon Stompy and really improve the deck. It's basically a card draw engine on a big flying body for a reasonable mana cost. Yes, the "discard your hand" clause is technically a drawback, but Dragon Stompy is a deck that doesn't want to keep stuff in its hand past Turn 4 anyway. Just build the deck so you can easily dump your permanents in play, and reap the benefits of a flying red 4/4 Dark Confidant!

[Barook]

The dragon is AD-immune and bolt-proof. Combine him with Chalice and it should be extremely solid.

Prowness was made an evergreen since Wizards wanted to give blue an evergreen mechanic that influences the combat because flying is pretty non-interactive if your opponent doesn't have any creatures with it. I'm just suprised it happened that fast since it basically completely ignored player feedback, given the set was made before players could even give feedback. Prowness was pretty unpopular during Khans before it become the most popular clan mechanic during Fate Reforged.

On a slightly off-topic note: How can I prevent that PoS site of Wizards to automatically switch to German every time? It irritates me greatly and drives me insane.

[Julian23]

On a slightly off-topic note: How can I prevent that PoS site of Wizards to automatically switch to German every time? It irritates me greatly and drives me insane.

This! A 1.000 times this!

[Kathal]

This! A 1.000 times this!

Welcome in the club :frown:

@Dragon, he looks cute, good in Dragon Stompy but utterly bad every where else. Wont see Modern play (which influences the price).

Greetings,
Kathal

[Barook]

@Dragon, he looks cute, good in Dragon Stompy but utterly bad every where else. Wont see Modern play (which influences the price).
It's probably going to see alot of Standard play. Expect it to be expensive for a while.

[iamajellydonut]

It's probably going to see alot of Standard play.

It may very well be solely responsible for getting me back into Standard. Now I just have to see what the rotation schedule looks like...

[Darkenslight]

It may very well be solely responsible for getting me back into Standard. Now I just have to see what the rotation schedule looks like...

It'll be around for 12 months or so. I can easily see a BR Dragons list being the bomb for the early rotation stuff.

[Lormador]

That Dragon is so awesome that I forgot what I came in here to complain about.

If only this happened more often, we could save the Internet!

[Cire]

Enthralling Victor 3R
Creature - Human Warrior U
When Enthralling Victor enters the battlefield, gain control of target creature an opponent controls with power 2 or less until end of turn. Untap that creature. It gains haste until end of turn.
3/2

Maybe some potential? It only costs 4 (not 5 like Zealous Conscripts)? What would it steal that could be potentially useful? Combine with sac effects?

[iamajellydonut]

I'd jam it all day if the card itself had haste or something, but vanilla he's mediocre.

[Cire]

I'd jam it all day if the card itself had haste or something, but vanilla he's mediocre.

So it's not going to live and die so it can live again :tongue:

[iamajellydonut]

So it's not going to live and die so it can live again :tongue:

You, know, I almost finished that in all caps.

[Barook]

I'm suprised nobody has talked about Jhessian Thief yet:

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/71/456/200/283/635693394274569660.png

Yes, Mentor might be better in decks running white, but thing is: Unless you slam down a fatty, it makes combat math really tricky since it can kill smaller creatures with spell support, generating CA even when it isn't connecting. But when it connects, it feeds you with more spells, making it in return more effective. While it's hard to say how good it actually is in games (let alone Legacy), I would definitely keep an eye on this since it's an engine that synergizes with itself - and those kinds of cards tend to be on the strong side historically.

[iamajellydonut]

I'm suprised nobody has talked about Jhessian Thief yet:

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/71/456/200/283/635693394274569660.png

Yes, Mentor might be better in decks running white, but thing is: Unless you slam down a fatty, it makes combat math really tricky since it can kill smaller creatures with spell support, generating CA even when it isn't connecting. But when it connects, it feeds you with more spells, making it in return more effective. While it's hard to say how good it actually is in games (let alone Legacy), I would definitely keep an eye on this since it's an engine that synergizes with itself - and those kinds of cards tend to be on the strong side historically.

I mean, it's a Cold-Eyed Selkie that is subject to opponent choice. There's not too much to get excited about.

[thecrav]

I mean, it's a Cold-Eyed Selkie that is subject to opponent choice. There's not too much to get excited about.

It's far worse in terms of card draw than Selkie. Selkie is unblockable against most of the format. Selkie draws extra cards if it's been pumped somehow.

But yea, agreed that it's not too exciting.

[bruizar]

I'm suprised nobody has talked about Jhessian Thief yet:

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/71/456/200/283/635693394274569660.png

Yes, Mentor might be better in decks running white, but thing is: Unless you slam down a fatty, it makes combat math really tricky since it can kill smaller creatures with spell support, generating CA even when it isn't connecting. But when it connects, it feeds you with more spells, making it in return more effective. While it's hard to say how good it actually is in games (let alone Legacy), I would definitely keep an eye on this since it's an engine that synergizes with itself - and those kinds of cards tend to be on the strong side historically.

Haters be damned, this card is nuts

[Darkenslight]

Haters be damned, this card is nuts

There's a home for it in Modern, sure, but I can't find myself too excited about it in Legacy. If it was a 1/4, then maybe, as it can block both Tasigur and most Goyfs to some reasonable success.

[Kathal]

There's a home for it in Modern, sure, but I can't find myself too excited about it in Legacy. If it was a 1/4, then maybe, as it can block both Tasigur and most Goyfs to some reasonable success.

I doubt it will see play in Modern, since the body is to small compared to Goyf and co and it brings not enough value. The only modern deck where I see it playable is Grixis Midrange, since it offers you another value card besides Pyromancer (and I doubt even there it would be good).

Greetings,
Kathal

[Lemnear]

It's three mana and draws 1 card if it connects with an opponent ... meh. If it drew one for attacking instead of damahe, was 1U or drew cards equal to the damage dealt to a player, I would be more interrested :wink:

[Cire]

[Name currently untranslated] 2U
Creature - [?] U
Flash
When ~ enter the battlefield，Change the target of target spell or ability to ~.
1/4

Blue Spellskite that doesn't give you the option of free activation, only works once, has 1 power and flash.

[MGB]

[Name currently untranslated] 2U
Creature - [?] U
Flash
When ~ enter the battlefield，Change the target of target spell or ability to ~.
1/4

Blue Spellskite that doesn't give you the option of free activation, only works once, has 1 power and flash.


This + Cavern of Souls in Vintage!

[sjmcc13]

It's three mana and draws 1 card if it connects with an opponent ... meh. This.
the problem with Prowess is you need a card advantage engine to make it work, since you need to have strong selections of Creatures and Non-creature spells in order to trigger prowess, with tlands that means splitting your deck into 3 sections.

If you already have an active card advantage engine, then this does little. if you do not it is a 1/3, sometimes a 2/4, that gets blocked by the bigger things your opponent has in play since you opponent it likely to have a 3+ toughness blocker so only bluffing 1 trigger it not enough.

All the "when I get through draw a card" creatures that are "good" have some form of evasion, so they have a real chance of the ability triggering.

This gal will be a 1/3 prowess for 3 too often, and that is to much mana when there is already a 1/3 prowess for 2.

[Cire]

This + Cavern of Souls in Vintage!

Current Translation seems to be Vedalken Wizard for its creature type. . .

Honestly it might not be bad in modern. It plus Spellskite would really annoy Twin decks. . .

[bruizar]

This.
the problem with Prowess is you need a card advantage engine to make it work, since you need to have strong selections of Creatures and Non-creature spells in order to trigger prowess, with tlands that means splitting your deck into 3 sections.

If you already have an active card advantage engine, then this does little. if you do not it is a 1/3, sometimes a 2/4, that gets blocked by the bigger things your opponent has in play since you opponent it likely to have a 3+ toughness blocker so only bluffing 1 trigger it not enough.

All the "when I get through draw a card" creatures that are "good" have some form of evasion, so they have a real chance of the ability triggering.

This gal will be a 1/3 prowess for 3 too often, and that is to much mana when there is already a 1/3 prowess for 2.

Although I'm not a storm player, this is what I envision it doing. Doubles as a grapeshot and a way to refuel hand over turns when it doesn't go according to plan. Good or bad, this is the context from which I viewed the card. Sideboard card against control and slow combo.

I don't like the heuristic approach to trope cards like 'connect-draw-a-card creatures are bad' because it leads to generalizations that are simply not universally true.

[iamajellydonut]

'connect-draw-a-card creatures are bad' ... generalization

Ignoring the atrocious formatting of your post, no one has stated or alluded to this. The common criticism, aside from those of the prowess mechanic, is the big "if it connects". If you choose to play Jhessian Thief, you're not doing it for the 1/3 prowess. You're doing it for the card draw, and it's kind of hard to draw those cards without some sort of inherent evasion or protection,

Fact of the matter is that there's no reason to pretend to draw cards with Jhessian Thief when you can actually draw cards with Cold-Eyed Selkie.

[Tokugawa]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/139/925/635698239820776519.JPG

Pictures of Jace and Nissa were posted on MTGS. None of them seems like Legacy cards.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Kind of a bummer, I was hoping the green one would be something decks would want to zenith for. Nic fit is always a maybe I guess, depending on how good the token is.

Are there any pictures where the mana cost is visible?

EDIT: Just saw it was 2G. Come on wizards, just make it wood elves.

[Barook]

At least post the text versions, since the forum doesn't display Jace and Nissa:

Jace, Vryn's Prodigy 1U
Legendary Creature - Human Wizard (M)
T: Draw a card, then discard a card. If there are five or more cards in your graveyard, exile Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, then return him to the battlefield transformed under his owner's control.
0/2
#60
-----
Jace, Telepath Unbound
Planeswalker - Jace (M)
+1: Up to one target creature gets -2/-0 until your next turn.
-3: You may cast target instant or sorcery card from your graveyard this turn. If that card would be put into your graveyard this turn, exile it instead.
-9: You get an emblem with "Whenever you cast a spell, target opponent puts the top five cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
5
#60



Nissa, Vastwood Seer 2G
Legendary Creature - Elf Scout (M)
When Nissa, Vastwood Seer enters the battlefield, you may search your library for a basic Forest card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library.
Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, if you control seven or more lands, exile Nissa, then return her to the battlefield transformed under her owner's control.
2/2
#189
-----
Nissa, Sage Animist
Planeswalker - Nissa (M)
+1: Reveal the top card of your library. If it's a land card, put it onto the battlefield. Otherwise, put it into your hand.
-2: Put a legendary 4/4 green Elemental creature token named Ashaya, the Awoken World onto the battlefield.
-7: Untap up to six target lands. They become 6/6 Elemental creatures. They're still lands.
3
#189

Chandra seems at least playable for Standard.

Same goes for Nissa if green ramp becomes a thing again with Zendikar. But 7 lands is still a lot. I agree she should have been a Wood Elf at least instead this crap we got (Karakas shenanigans woooooo!). Basic Forest to the hand - for what purpose? It's like Wizards loves to shit on her.

Jace is terribly unimpressive, despite being easy to flip.

Given how meh those cards are, I don't get my hope up for Gideon.

For the "faces" of the set, they fail to get me excited.

[rufus]

...
Chandra seems at least playable for Standard.
...

It's got me wondering whether some kind of mono-R shaman thing could work.

[Amon Amarth]

Those are all pretty cool, honestly. Not Legacy playable but pretty interesting. I wish Nissa did a bit more when she wasn't flipped. Also, what's with the black face/negative thing on the PWs again? I thought they only did that for the special set of 'walkers from San Diego awhile ago?

[Barook]

Displacement Wave X:u::u:
Sorcery
Return all nonland permanents with converted mana cost X or less to their owners' hands.


Interesting effect, although in what Legacy deck would it fit in?

[bruizar]

Ignoring the atrocious formatting of your post, no one has stated or alluded to this. The common criticism, aside from those of the prowess mechanic, is the big "if it connects". If you choose to play Jhessian Thief, you're not doing it for the 1/3 prowess. You're doing it for the card draw, and it's kind of hard to draw those cards without some sort of inherent evasion or protection,

Fact of the matter is that there's no reason to pretend to draw cards with Jhessian Thief when you can actually draw cards with Cold-Eyed Selkie.

except selkie doesn't double as a grapeshot

[bruizar]

Jace might become expensive, its basically a reusable, slower snapcaster mage

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Nissa could be a very good card advantage machine! But 7 lands is prolly edh only.

Ill just say it: jace is mega bad! Its so similar with snappy but you actually have to do stuff. Snappy is just 1u go for it. This is sorcery speed plus you have to wait a turn.
And whats left behind? A 2/1 guy or a PW with 2 loyalty (with a kinda useless +1)...

[bruizar]

Nissa could be a very good card advantage machine! But 7 lands is prolly edh only.

Ill just say it: jace is mega bad! Its so similar with snappy but you actually have to do stuff. Snappy is just 1u go for it. This is sorcery speed plus you have to wait a turn.
And whats left behind? A 2/1 guy or a PW with 2 loyalty (with a kinda useless +1)...

Jace cost is spread over turns, full cost of snapcaster + spell is immediate. More problematic is Jace's sorcery speed activation, but still im sure that, Jace frequently flashbacks 2 cards instead of 1, and the loot also helps. Also, there will be times that like Liliana of the Veil, Jace is unanswered and just ramps into powerful flashback triggers like additional ponders, brainstorms, thoughtseize or swords to plowshares. I guess the similarities with Snapcaster Mage end with the mana cost and the ability to flashback cards. Def not the same card.


Chandra can flip after playing one spell if you just attack with it, which is nice

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Ok you are right... If not dealt within 1 turn jace lets you loot and flashback. Then he annoys your opponent and maybe you get a second flashback out of it. Yup i compared it too hard with snapcaster...

[Rizso]

Ok you are right... If not dealt within 1 turn jace lets you loot and flashback. Then he annoys your opponent and maybe you get a second flashback out of it. Yup i compared it too hard with snapcaster...

Snapcaster mage is a really pushed card tho :P

[TsumiBand]

I'm okay with Jace being awful for once.

Like seriously, before he was a Planeswalker he was a goddamn Looter?! I feel like now that his past is known the other walkers are just going to kick his penis in and steal his lunch money between planes. "omfg Gideon STAHP i have to get to Lorwyn" "lol wutever bitch, meet me in the playground at recess so i can kick your entire ass"

Speaking of Gideon, wheretf his spoiler is

[Dice_Box]

So far, Liliana looks to be the best. Not great for Legacy but I do want her for Company in Modern.

[TsumiBand]

So far, Liliana looks to be the best. Not great for Legacy but I do want her for Company in Modern.

I agree. Nessa looks like ass-in-a-hat and Chandra is a little too little kiddish, even for me. Jace is a bad Snapcaster. Gidds better be a fucking Zangief or else this is a one-card cycle which feels like a poor way to sell the set.

[bruizar]

I can't shake the thought of trying Liliana with Vexing Devil. Probably too crappy but I like it still. Perhaps for modern..Given the reprinting of Shivan Dragon, Nightmare, Sengir Vampire, Serra Angel and Mahamoti Djinn, I'm pretty positive Gideon is going to be an amazing Veteran Bodyguard.

[Barook]

Speaking of Gideon, wheretf his spoiler is
The spoiler dude obviously didn't have him.

I wonder how Gideon turns out. Given the information from the other Planeswalkers, he's most likely going to be a 2/X for :1::w::w: (or :w::w:) with an extra ability that might synergize with his flipping ability. Since the other two Gideons have been all about combat (and opposing creatures), I assume his flipping condition is either about combat or something about your creatures. Although, IIRC, he got his Planeswalker spark by meditating alone, so that could go either way.

[rufus]

Interesting effect, although in what Legacy deck would it fit in?

It could work a bit like a second rate mono-color Engineered Explosives with potential against cc-less tokens, flipped delvers, Chrome Mox, and true-name nemesis.

[iamajellydonut]

except selkie doesn't double as a grapeshot

I'm sure you'd have an equally shitty time if you tried to shove Grapeshot into a URx Delver build.

[Dice_Box]

I'm sure you'd have an equally shitty time if you tried to shove Grapeshot into a URx Delver build.

Regardless of how you choose to do it, sleve up Deliver and your going to have a shitty time.

When Chandra was spoiled (Around a week back) there was a few people who thought about using her in Modern Storm. She can deal 5 damage herself and that's not a small thing.

What do people think of this? I mean its unlikely to see a lot of play, but it is interesting space to work in and I like where it is going. Lets you fetch and save a creature, not sure how often that is worth a non dual, ETB Taped non basic.

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Melmonic-the-Secret-Isle.jpg

[bruizar]

I'm sure you'd have an equally shitty time if you tried to shove Grapeshot into a URx Delver build.

Probably right. Its a shitty card and I wont defend it further, though I wouldn't be surprised to see it in a combo sideboard.

So, any bets on dual lands this set?


Regardless of how you choose to do it, sleve up Deliver and your going to have a shitty time.

When Chandra was spoiled (Around a week back) there was a few people who thought about using her in Modern Storm. She can deal 5 damage herself and that's not a small thing.

What do people think of this? I mean its unlikely to see a lot of play, but it is interesting space to work in and I like where it is going. Lets you fetch and save a creature, not sure how often that is worth a non dual, ETB Taped non basic.

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Melmonic-the-Secret-Isle.jpg

I absolutely love the card design and art. Obviously will play nicely with Snapcaster Mage.

[mrjumbo03]

^That card is most probably fake. Lots of red flags.

Jeff Simpsom? Not to mention its using the wrong font for the artist name.
Tapping for U should be in reminder text similar to shocklands or Murmuring Bosk.
Full card name is used twice in the text box.

[bruizar]

Reserved Gilded Drakes just in case. if that thing is real, it will be the end of aggro strategies, MUD and reanimate would also be dead lol.

EDIT:

Confirmed fake

1. Copyright text is in Beleren, should be Plantin.
2. Collector number & set code look to be Arial, should be Gotham Medium
3. No idea what the hell that is between the set and language codes, but it's not a dot or star
4. The card itself is implausible; it has no upside, the drawback is the only thing about it.
5. It has the subtype Island, the mana ability should be reminder text.
6. Artist name misspelled (and the wrong artist).

-Annorax

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

"4. The card itself is implausible; it has no upside, the drawback is the only thing about it."

Is this guy on the Sally smoking some dank shit? This card is almost all upside; it's a fetchable Unsummon for cryin' out loud! Something beating you down under the protection of 3Sphere, Lodestone, or some other Stax effect? No problemo, just lay a fetch, crack it and PRESTO! Threat temporarily neutralized! Thalia getting Storm down? Well now that Delta drawn off of AN isn't so useless.

Also I think this design is believable. Allied fetches are in Standard now, and a lot of folks are almost certain the enemy fetches will see reprints in the upcoming Battle for Zendikar. Fetchable lands with effects are an interesting design space that Wizards might want to explore, and you can never put it past them to not make the Blue fifth of a cycle head-and-shoulders above them.

Food for thought: Origin's Chandra was spoiled about two months ago, yet everyone called it fake at the time because of the typical reasons (bad mockup), but the spoiler was right on point. This could be a similar case.

[Dice_Box]

Yea sorry, I have found it is confirmed fake. But fuck this is a space to play in. Really, I hope they Wizards does something in this space.

[Zombie]

Preferably something that is not an Island. Like, I don't know, good green lands that actually do something?

[LOLWut]

I'm not into blue fetches grabbing that thing, but in general, why are the cards from WotC shittier than the ones from the shitty card creation thread and from fakes? :confused:

[rufus]

I'm not into blue fetches grabbing that thing, but in general, why are the cards from WotC shittier than the ones from the shitty card creation thread and from fakes? :confused:

Got to make people chase dem rares.

[sjmcc13]

I'm not into blue fetches grabbing that thing, but in general, why are the cards from WotC shittier than the ones from the shitty card creation thread and from fakes? :confused:

because those are made by people who care about more then just selling crap to the kitchen table casuals?

[KIP_NZ]

Preferably something that is not an Island. Like, I don't know, good green lands that actually do something?

No good green lands?

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=10422&type=card

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=109755&type=card

[rufus]

No good green lands?...

I think he meant special non-basic forests so that they could be fetched. More like Dryad Arbor or Murmuring Bosk.

[ESG]

Displacement Wave XUU
Sorcery
Return all nonland permanents with converted mana cost X or less to their owners' hands.


Interesting effect, although in what Legacy deck would it fit in?

12-Post/Turbo Eldrazi

[Zombie]

No good green lands?

These are far back in the past. If you'd note:


Really, I hope Wizards does something in this space.


Preferably something that is not an Island. Like, I don't know, good green lands that actually do something?


The point is to get new interesting cards, not that good green lands don't exist.


I think he meant special non-basic forests so that they could be fetched. More like Dryad Arbor or Murmuring Bosk.

Almost, but a bit off. Ideally I'd want lands that do not produce blue. If fetchable, make them monocolored.

The idea came from seeing that land and a bit in one recent article by Ross Merriam. He noted that far from wanting less lands, ramp decks actually want more so the ramp actually matters. This of course leads to nasty manafloods that make you brick games, which you need mana sinks to mitigate. The best kind of sink is obviously a land because you have to play a lot of them. Couple that with green's color pie shares traditionally being about ramping with mana generators and all manner of shenanigans related to lands - hell, their draw spells typically can only ever find creatures and lands (thanks WotC -_-). It would make so much sense to have a part of green's card share just be lands that do stuff. It would emphasize the color's unique character and help give an alternate angle at consistency across formats.

[iamajellydonut]

^That card is most probably fake. Lots of red flags.

Surprised no one pointed out the red flag of "legendary land".

[bruizar]

Surprised no one pointed out the red flag of "legendary land".

Why is that a red flag?

[iamajellydonut]

Why is that a red flag?

Because it has been repeatedly been stated by Wizards and reflected in their design that legendary lands are unhealthy and unfun.

Fuck if I agree with it, but it's their policy.

[Dice_Box]

Because it has been repeatedly been stated by Wizards and reflected in their design that legendary lands are unhealthy and unfun.

Fuck if I agree with it, but it's their policy.

They have said this, but Nykthos has shown they are willing to do it anyway.

[iamajellydonut]

They have said this, but Nykthos has shown they are willing to do it anyway.

Yeah, sure, once every four years. And only after skipping over things like Valakut.

Hell, they couldn't even be bothered to make the shitty Dragon cycle legendary.

[bruizar]

Because it has been repeatedly been stated by Wizards and reflected in their design that legendary lands are unhealthy and unfun.

Fuck if I agree with it, but it's their policy.

Hasbro/WotC really sucks at making magic imo :-) so much latent potential.

IMO Legendary cards serve the purpose of restricting the number of copies people are willing to put in their deck. Given that only vintage has a restricted list, legend cards fill this rule gap nicely. Unhealthy and unfun card design is because of bad designers.. The rules are fine.

[iamajellydonut]

IMO Legendary cards serve the purpose of restricting the number of copies people are willing to put in their deck. Given that only vintage has a restricted list, legend cards fill this rule gap nicely. Unhealthy and unfun card design is because of bad designers.. The rules are fine.

But it shouldn't just be about restricting the number of copies that can be preset. Flavor fucking matters.

[Crimhead]

Because it has been repeatedly been stated by Wizards and reflected in their design that legendary lands are unhealthy and unfun.

Fuck if I agree with it, but it's their policy.

This policy predates the last legend rule change, and I think it has since been relaxed.

I could be wrong, but I think WotC feels that LD period is bad for the game. With the Kamigawa Legend rule, a Legendary land could be used to nuke your opponent's copy of the same land. This means LD that is free and cannot be responded to. I don't think WotC feels that there Standard base could handle that.

I also had the feeling that the legend rule was changed because they were making a new legend themed block, and they didn't want standard players freaking out when their permanents get removed.

All in all, I think the days of "no Legendary lands" are behind us. We got Urborg in last year's core set too. So here's hoping for some cool new land tech!

[ESG]

Flavor fucking matters.

It's been a while since that was true. How about this atrocity?

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/m14/60.jpg

[Barook]

The card is meh, but the Spell Master mechanic sounds interesting:

Ravaging Blaze X:r::r:
Instant
Ravaging Blaze deals X damage to target creature.
Spell Master - If there are two or more instant and/or sorcery cards in your graveyard, Ravaging Blaze also deals X damage to that creature's controller.

[iamajellydonut]

but the Spell Master mechanic sounds interesting

"Interesting" in the sense that it has the potential to deliver some pretty broken cards? (Or overcosted heaps of shit.)

Because, I mean, the mechanic itself is extremely boring considering how easy it is for any deck to dump spells. The text "Spell Master" (which is, by the way, on par with Megamorph) had might as well not even exist.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

I'm almost certain there will be a busted Blue card, in non-rotating formats at least, with "Spell Master" (lol at that name btw).

[Barook]

I'm almost certain there will be a busted Blue card, in non-rotating formats at least, with "Spell Master" (lol at that name btw).
Well, that's the sad part about that it's going to feed the blue bullshit machine even further.

[Lemnear]

Well, that's the sad part about that it's going to feed the blue bullshit machine even further.

I cannot disagree here. This "mechanic" is hilariously pointless. Instants/Sorceries which get stronger if you play Instants/Sorceries? What kinda bullshit is this? Jesus Christ, why not balancing this by really limiting the mechanic to pure spell decks, but make the requirement "two instants/sorceries" only, so the mechanic can be splashed into Tempo and midrange decks

I take bets that we will see a red direct damage spell which grows to a full lightning bolt with spellmaster and a counterspell-variant.

[bruizar]

Given that this is the last core set, and the fact that they are reintroducing cards that it all started with, I am actually anticipating that origins will feature a new power-9 like broken card(s) at least in terms of power level. A Spellmaster card is probably it. Mechanic aside, the word spellmaster immediately brings to mind Ancestral Recall, Time Walk and Timetwister.

[Ace/Homebrew]

"Spell Master" is on par with Megamorph.
It's worth noting that it is actually Spell Mastery. Not quite as bad as Spell Master.

The mechanic itself is also questionable as far as power level in eternal formats. As a thought experiment, would Spell-Mastery-Shock see play over Lightning Bolt? Sure by turn 2 it could be live, but not always. It's like how people evaluate Delver as a 3/2 flyer when it's actually a 1/1 groundling.

[mishima_kazuya]

At what mana cost is a spellmaster Concentrate not bannable in Legacy?

Concentrate is very powerful in Limited and would probably be a Standard staple if DTT and TC rotate out. Obviously Concentrate is unplayable in Modern and Eternal formats.

Divination got better 1UU
Sorcery
Draw two cards.
Spell Master - ...Draw three cards.

My idea doesn't seem playable in Legacy but would certainly spice Modern up.

1R
~ deals three damage to target creature.
Spell Master - ... Exile target red card in your graveyard. Until the end of turn, you may cast the exiled card.

[rufus]

At what mana cost is a spellmaster Concentrate not bannable in Legacy?

Concentrate is very powerful in Limited and would probably be a Standard staple if DTT and TC rotate out. Obviously Concentrate is unplayable in Modern and Eternal formats.

Divination got better 1UU
Sorcery
Draw two cards.
Spell Master - ...Draw three cards.
...

So it draws 5 cards for 1UU? That's only slightly OP.

[mishima_kazuya]

So it draws 5 cards for 1UU? That's only slightly OP.

Draw three cards instead.
My bad :tongue:

[Crimhead]

Wow - we haven't even seen the set, but folks are complaining about the blue cards in advance! I admire the dedication.

[Tylert]

Wow - we haven't even seen the set, but folks are complaining about the blue cards in advance! I admire the dedication.

Just be honest to yourself once plz. It is obvious that WotC may make some big mistake with such a keyword.
It is not as if blue legacy decks could not fill completely their graveyard with spells easily...
However, I guess, there will be no cost reduction and that the spells will be overcosted (Or i hope so).

[Zulabnar]

Wow
Spellmastery is fucking amazing

Spell Mastery - If there are two or more instant and/or sorcery cards in your graveyard, Ravaging Blaze also deals X damage to that creature's controller.

Legacy decks are all overfilled of brainstorm, ponder, probe, bolt/thoughtsize, rite and on and on...

a Blue card will sure be printed to kick others colors ass as usual

[bruizar]

I'm waiting for some fuck up like this

Treasure Safari
Sorcery
U
Draw a card
Spell Mastery Draw a card

[dte]

Just be honest to yourself once plz. It is obvious that WotC may make some big mistake with such a keyword.
It is not as if blue legacy decks could not fill completely their graveyard with spells easily...
However, I guess, there will be no cost reduction and that the spells will be overcosted (Or i hope so).

Prowess is another keyword which seems to work especially nicely with blue cantrips.
However, did they made the best prowess creatures blue, while it was a URW mechanic?
No, the best is a red creatures (MS) and then a white one (MM).

The red one is even so powerful that it is playable in a non-U deck!

In the same way, the best miracles spells are white (terminus, the EtA), then Red (BotD) ahead of the blue ones.
Of course you need to play blue around to make them playable, it does not change the fact that these mechanics, which are highly synergetic with U, have been used with more success to design non-U cards.

[Lemnear]

I'm waiting for some fuck up like this

Treasure Safari
Sorcery
U
Draw a card
Spell Mastery Draw a card

or a Duress with spellmaster for cantripping xD

[Fatal]

Little fixed Brainstorm:

U - Sorcery
Draw 3 cards, then put 3 cards on top of library in any order.

Spell Mastery - Draw 3 cards, then put 2 cards on top of library in any order instead.

Without Spell Mastery active it's card disadvantage, also big change - sorcery speed.

[bruizar]

Little fixed Brainstorm:

U - Sorcery
Draw 3 cards, then put 3 cards on top of library in any order.

Spell Mastery - Draw 3 cards, then put 2 cards on top of library in any order instead.

Without Spell Mastery active it's card disadvantage, also big change - sorcery speed.

I think the proper fix is to reverse it.



Brainmelt:

U - Sorcery
Draw 3 cards, then put 2 cards on top of library in any order.

Spell Mastery - Draw 3 cards, then put 3 cards on top of library in any order instead.


Now, blue decks should actively get rid of their graveyards to enjoy the cantripping effects of brainstorm. Brainstorm is particularly good late game, when graveyards are full. Casting this card early will (1) be a waste of Brainstorm and (2) fill the graveyard which would probably enable Spell Mastery the next time you try to play a copy of Brainmelt.

This would make Relic of Progenitus, Delve cards, Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Peace much more interesting.

[Lemnear]

This would make Relic of Progenitus, Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Peace much more interesting.

Do we see any increase of these counterstrategies to yard-shenanigans with DTT in 55%+ of Legecy decks? No, we do not. Draw your conclusion

[bruizar]

Do we see any increase of these counterstrategies to yard-shenanigans with DTT in 55%+ of Legecy decks? No, we do not. Draw your conclusion

Comprehension is key. I was not referring to using counterstrategies. I was referring to strategically using Relic of Progenitus on yourself or delving away instants and sorceries with Dig Through Time to enable a follow up Brainmelt (Lots of tension between Dig Through Time and Brainmelt as DTT fixes, but also requires a big graveyard). That's mostly unexplored, yet interesting design space.

The requirement to enable Spell Mastery is a joke and should be a drawback instead of a bonus effect.

[Lemnear]

Comprehension is key. I was not referring to using counterstrategies. I was referring to strategically using Relic of Progenitus on yourself or delving away instants and sorceries with Dig Through Time to enable a follow up Brainmelt (Lots of tension between Dig Through Time and Brainmelt as DTT fixes, but also requires a big graveyard). That's mostly unexplored, yet interesting design space.

You have a point. My bad for misinterpreting here. I however am not the biggest fan of cards that reward you for running DTT at this point

[Barook]

That's mostly unexplored, yet interesting design space.

The requirement to enable Spell Mastery is a joke and should be a drawback instead of a bonus effect.
I was about to say that, too. But in the end, it leads "bad" gameplay since you feel bad for being punished by the Spell Mastery drawback - or whatever similiar bullshit Maro would spout out.

Powerful effects that get weaker with Spell Mastery would be an interesting design space, but considering it's called Spell Mastery instead of Spell Backfire, I wouldn't get my hopes up.

[bruizar]

Oh I'm absolutely sure they will manage to fuck up this mechanic. I just hope the cards I speculate on won't be banned this time, like with Treasure Cruise.

[Lemnear]

Oh I'm absolutely sure they will manage to fuck up this mechanic. I just hope the cards I speculate on won't be banned this time, like with Treasure Cruise.

I doubt that. The mechanic is simply too obvious to strap on anything that is nearly Legacy playable. Not even a monkey would come up with the idea to print reasonable card- or mana-advantage cards with this keyword.

[bruizar]

Valid point; although remember Bonfire of the Damned? That card started off really low too.

If they manage to not fuck up Spell Mastery, it's going to be another card. You can't stop the continuation of core sets with a terrible set. This set is so obviously a take on where it all began, and where it began was with the biggest misjudgments in terms of power level ever. I'm telling you I have my wallet ready to speculate because broken cards are coming.

[Tylert]

Valid point; although remember Bonfire of the Damned? That card started off really low too.

If they manage to not fuck up Spell Mastery, it's going to be another card. You can't stop the continuation of core sets with a terrible set. This set is so obviously a take on where it all began, and where it began was with the biggest misjudgments in terms of power level ever. I'm telling you I have my wallet ready to speculate because broken cards are coming.

It really depends on the cost of the card.
I can't see the blaze, but if it's a fireball like card, it's probably not broken if the cost is RX or RRX.
I really hope they put some cost according to the fact that the spell can be better under some conditions...
If it's not the case, we may indeed have new broken cards for eternal formats (Legacy / vintage at least).

[MGB]

I'm waiting for some fuck up like this

Treasure Safari
Sorcery
U
Draw a card
Spell Mastery Draw a card

I think it will be some broken blue creature with Spell Mastery a la Snapcaster Mage of the new set:


Spellmaster Sage
Creature - Wizard
2U

Flash
When Spellmaster Sage enters the battlefield, target instant or sorcery in your graveyard gains flashback until end of turn.

Spell Mastery - If there are two or more instants or sorcery cards in your graveyard deals, all instant and sorcery cards in your graveyard gain flashback until end of turn.

2/1

[sjmcc13]

I doubt that. The mechanic is simply too obvious to strap on anything that is nearly Legacy playable. Not even a monkey would come up with the idea to print reasonable card- or mana-advantage cards with this keyword. So was delve and they made Treasure Cruise, which was so obviously a problem card that only way to not see it was to have 0 understanding of any of the non-rotating formats other then EDH. wizards track record with "accidentally" making cards that are broken in Legac/modern and then scapegoating their imcompotence with "We only test Limited and Standard" is horrible.


The requirement to enable Spell Mastery is a joke and should be a drawback instead of a bonus effect.
It is not a joke if you are playing in a format where you desk is likely to be at most 20% non-land, non-creature cards, which is common for Draft, non-control Std decks. and those are the only formats wizards "tests"

[iamajellydonut]

It's sometimes tough to read tones on here. Is that Spellmaster Sage supposed to be a joke?

[Lemnear]

So was delve and they made Treasure Cruise, which was so obviously a problem card that only way to not see it was to have 0 understanding of any of the non-rotating formats other then EDH.

This is funny as I remeber a lot of members of this forum calling TC and DTT bad and also not understanding the potential of the card either and if Legacy enthusiasts manage to misjudge cards like those or call "DRS bad because it is conditional manaacceleration and Noble Hierarch is strickly better because of Exalted". How can you be mad at MaRo and his morrons after looking at that?

[Finn]

This is funny as I remeber a lot of members of this forum calling TC and DTT bad and also not understanding the potential of the card either and if Legacy enthusiasts manage to misjudge cards like those or call "DRS bad because it is conditional manaacceleration and Noble Hierarch is strickly better because of Exalted". How can you be mad at MaRo and his morrons after looking at that?

I have to agree with Lemnear here. I clearly remember the thread mocking Carsten for proposing that Cruise was even playable. Also, it was only a few sets before that when players complained that all of the mechanics were creature-centric.

There is just no satisfaction to be had, Me. Jagger.

[Dice_Box]

Because it is there job, they are paid to get this right. Not too many of the Legacy crowd get paid to either a) Develop Magic or b) Spend day in, day out testing it. Sure they can overlook shit, but why should they be held to a higher standard than us? Because it's them printing the fucking cards.

[iamajellydonut]

I have to agree with Lemnear here. I clearly remember the thread mocking Carsten for proposing that Cruise was even playable. Also, it was only a few sets before that when players complained that all of the mechanics were creature-centric.

Another ridiculer of Carsten's article here (still willing to call him out for a severe case of "smug"). But while I did underestimate the amount of people who would flock to UR Delver, I still don't feel like Dig Through Time has achieved anything beyond what was initially called.

[MGB]

It's sometimes tough to read tones on here. Is that Spellmaster Sage supposed to be a joke?

Doesn't it just look like something they'd print?

[Lemnear]

Another ridiculer of Carsten's article here (still willing to call him out for a severe case of "smug"). But while I did underestimate the amount of people who would flock to UR Delver, I still don't feel like Dig Through Time has achieved anything beyond what was initially called.

I suspected it reshaping OmniTell and the S&T supertype and it did just that after I was laughed at. That it slipped into Delver and shit was only a logic step after TCs ban and displayed potential

[rufus]

Because the condition is so easy to achieve, even in limited, I expect that any overpowered spell mastery card will be more on par with delver and goyf than treasure cruise.

Something like this is probably outside their current policies, but could be interesting:


Burning Ritual
R
Instant
Add RR to your mana pool
Spell Mastery - If there are two or more instant and/or sorcery cards in your graveyard add an additional R to your mana pool.

[bruizar]

I suspected it reshaping OmniTell and the S&T supertype and it did just that after I was laughed at. That it slipped into Delver and shit was only a logic step after TCs ban and displayed potential

I was also on the DTT train immediately, heck, I still think DTT is more powerful than Treasure Cruise but I guess that's because I think Delver is a glorified burn deck unworthy of tier 1 status.



DrainLeak
UU
Instant
Counter target spell unless it's controller pays 3.

Spell Mastery: Add x colorless mana to your pool, where x is that spell's converted mana cost.


@Rufus: Red ritual sounds highly playable.

[Lemnear]

I was also on the DTT train immediately, heck, I still think DTT is more powerful than Treasure Cruise but I guess that's because I think Delver is a glorified burn deck unworthy of tier 1 status.

@Rufus: Red ritual sounds highly playable.

Hahaha ... I share the same sentiment about linear aggro decks as you know ;)

I dare WotC to hand me more Rituals of any color ...

[wcm8]

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Melmonic-the-Secret-Isle.jpg

So I realize this card must be fake, *but if it wasn't*, pretty much every deck would be playing 4x copies of it. The 'downsides' don't matter when you consider that you'd be playing like 8-12 copies of instant speed, uncounterable Unsummon.

But I think it *would* be cool if there were some fetchable lands that had ETB effects. Like, if they made Bojuka Bog an actual Swamp, perhaps weakening it so that it could only exile a single target card instead of an entire graveyard.

Maybe the Blue fetchable Island could be 'fixed' by making the effect symmetrical like Curfew -- this way, it would still be extremely powerful against some strategies (Reanimator, SnT, etc), but would be a bit weaker against dedicated Creature-centric decks since they could just choose to bounce their weakest threat (or gain advantage since many of their creatures have ETB effects as well).

These sort of effects could be very maindeck worthy, but could also be quite nice as sideboard cards. Every deck would have access to some form of tutorable answers to narrow strategies without having to dilute everything else.

Another possibility: perhaps tack on a price to the ETB effect, e.g.: "When ~this~ ETB, you may pay [cost]. If you do, [effect]." Thus, the Unsummon and Bojuka Bog effects would still require color and mana investment to be slightly more fair.

In any case -- I am excited to see what this set will bring to the table. I fully expect for there to be some Eternal playables with the new mechanics.

[Zombie]

Someone on Salvation made a bot make Magic cards. I'm sure he's bullshitting because these clearly came from R&D:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHkBl3PUwAAArjm.jpghttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHkBl37UwAARFxC.jpg

[Cire]

Someone on Salvation made a bot make Magic cards. ]

That bot came up with the mechanic fuseback . . . a flash back that lets you cast a split card fused. . . . which is BRILLIANT. . . . .

We're a couple years away from just having an AI generated set. :laugh:

[bruizar]

That was hilarious. The training set is so horribly biased in favor of blue that it results in cards like this :-)

[H]

That was hilarious. The training set is so horribly biased in favor of blue that it results in cards like this :-)

Man, that thread is full of gold.

https://i.imgur.com/vrjHeNq.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/2nNWWNy.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/AWTQ0bM.jpg

[bruizar]

Man, that thread is full of gold.

https://i.imgur.com/vrjHeNq.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/2nNWWNy.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/AWTQ0bM.jpg

They should honor this guy by immortalizing Slidshocking Krow as an invitational card. Blue gets all the goodies again :-).

Slidshocking Krow is bizzarly balanced. If you chump with 1/1's, Slidshocking Krow deals 3 damage to the attacker lol.

WotC should call these randomly generated cards Contraptions. That would make Steamflogger Boss so awesome. LITERALLY a card from the future.

[iamajellydonut]

https://i.imgur.com/2nNWWNy.jpg

The point at which I lost it.

That's fucking gold.

[H]

They should honor this guy by immortalizing Slidshocking Krow as an invitational card. Blue gets all the goodies again :-).

Slidshocking Krow is bizzarly balanced. If you chump with 1/1's, Slidshocking Krow deals 3 damage to the attacker lol.

Who knows, maybe Mointainsplock is really a bad thing? It seems the AI thought it's effect was so obvious that it didn't even need reminder text!

Another gem:
http://i.imgur.com/7pfQYRu.jpg

[Barook]

That's fucking gold.
Obviously, since it's multicolored. :really:

But can we stop with the mock cards, please?


I was also on the DTT train immediately, heck, I still think DTT is more powerful than Treasure Cruise but I guess that's because I think Delver is a glorified burn deck unworthy of tier 1 status.
I'm still of the opinion that DTT is more powerful than TC - just because everybody was busy rubbing their dick to UR Delver with TC doesn't mean that DTT isn't the stronger card, hence it seeing way more play than TC and pushing blue decks to a new all-time high.

[MGB]

I would love to cast that green card in a Professional REL tournament.

Tapping my Trop for green... I name "Snapcaster Mage"!! I gain ONE life! Pass turn!

opponent: O_o

[eostby]

So, back on topic, if the Gideon spoiler I've just seen is legit, he might actually fight for a spot in Death and Taxes. Apologies if the images are huge; they're the only ones I've seen so far.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHqOuzyUEAEPOfW.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHqOu1BUEAE5-WP.jpg

[Barook]

Just because it's a white creature doesn't mean it fits into D&T.

In the end, it would take the spot of a beater. Legendary Savannah Lion is not where you want to be at. Flipping it with D&T isn't going to be that easy and the PW mode is rather unimpressive.

[iamajellydonut]

Just because it's a white creature doesn't mean it fits into D&T.

Tell that to Serra Avenger and Brimaz.

But yeah, no, this probably has actually zero place in Death and Taxes.

[bruizar]

Total flavor win. Love Gideon. It will make waves in other formats. Flipping it aint easy though

[Sylphnir]

If fast zoo ever makes a resurgence (which it certainly won't just because of him), he can be the warden with the muckrake.

[Lemnear]

@Gideon
I really like the design even if I consider the 3-creature-clause a total no-go in Legacy and with Terminus around.

@Red Ritual
You know that this is a straight upgrade to Rite of Flame? Given that red based storm is a thing in Modern and Legacy, I doubt we see any kind of Ritual for years

[Darkenslight]

Just because it's a white creature doesn't mean it fits into D&T.

In the end, it would take the spot of a beater. Legendary Savannah Lion is not where you want to be at. Flipping it with D&T isn't going to be that easy and the PW mode is rather unimpressive.

I think you're underestimating that +1, and the fact that PW Gideon can attack into most things not named Emrakul and come out decently enough. Having an indestructible dude is weaker in Legacy, where we send things Farming, but outside of that, the core removal spell is Bolt, which struggles with the PW Gideon.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Hmm he transforms at end of combat. So i think there this small time window when he transforms with 3 loyalty and you cant use his +2 (sorcery speed) but he can be bolted.

[bruizar]

They should have put the transformed Gideon on a Savannah Lions though.

[Barook]

I think you're underestimating that +1, and the fact that PW Gideon can attack into most things not named Emrakul and come out decently enough. Having an indestructible dude is weaker in Legacy, where we send things Farming, but outside of that, the core removal spell is Bolt, which struggles with the PW Gideon.
Not only are things sent farming, but also getting Terminus'ed, Jace-bounced, Lili-sacced or killed by various quality -X/-X-effects, making the indestructible ability on the non-flipped creature not really relevant.

And unless you're playing a shell that has tons of creatures that swing, it's pretty unlikely that you're going to flip him anyway. And I don't see the point to waste a beater slots in D&T when I could run Mirran Crusaders and Serra Avengers instead. That might work better in something like Modern Zoo.

If I wanted a 1-mana beater with Karakas shenanigans, I would run Isamaru instead.

[lyracian]

For Legacy Gideon seems to be a good card without a home. At 3 mana to activate I do not see Kytheon's "I am Indestructible" being of much use. Maybe a Deadguy or Tokens list could make use of the new Gideon but I think he is more likely to slot into Modern than Legacy.

[TsumiBand]

Hmm he transforms at end of combat. So i think there this small time window when he transforms with 3 loyalty and you cant use his +2 (sorcery speed) but he can be bolted.

You might be right, but is there ever a time when you would allow this to happen that you wouldn't have just Bolted him as a 2/1 without getting all fancy with the stack and shit?

[Lemnear]

You might be right, but is there ever a time when you would allow this to happen that you wouldn't have just Bolted him as a 2/1 without getting all fancy with the stack and shit?

Gideon makes Forked Bolts better ;)

[Zombie]

You might be right, but is there ever a time when you would allow this to happen that you wouldn't have just Bolted him as a 2/1 without getting all fancy with the stack and shit?

If the opponent has 3 mana open and can make Gideon indestructible? The whole point is that there's a short while when the critter cannot make itself indestructible at all.

[sjmcc13]

If the opponent has 3 mana open and can make Gideon indestructible? The whole point is that there's a short while when the critter cannot make itself indestructible at all.Having an active Mother of Runes would also work.

[TsumiBand]

I guess I could see that, but that implies a certain kind of board state - you had a 3-damage spell, the opponent had three creatures, and somehow the best way to deal with an incoming Gideon transformation was to let all three creatures attack then Bolt Gideon after his ability resolved but before second main.

It's good to recognize that it's a possible line of play if it would come up, but I am tempted to say that most board states will reveal more optimal lines of play from the get-go.

[Finn]

Kytheon, Hero of Akros

-Wants three creatures to attack in Legacy. Check
-It's apparent home is a deck that falls all over itself to limit its exposure to -1/-1 effects. Check
-Turns into one of the worst Planeswalkers ever. Check
-Isamaru exists and is unused. Check


These are not the droids you are looking for. Move along.