Which card(s) do you want unbanned? (No discussion, only voting)

[LOLWut]

We don't need another Banned List discussion thread, but we can have a poll. Therefore, I ask everyone not to reply to the thread. The ban poll is old, but we don't have an unban one at all, so let's do that.

The maximum number of options is 10, so I went with the 9 cards that I think the community would most like to see unbanned, and a None of the Above option, whether that means you want a different card unbanned or you want no cards unbanned. You may select multiple options.

And again, no discussion, or take it to the Banned List discussion thread, so the poll can stay.

[Ellomdian]

I don't want to discuss the function, intent, or actions of past or future BnR announcements - I want to discuss what the motivation behind having a poll in the first place is.

"I think they should unban Survival because I don't know what a Vengevine is" is a completely different discussion from "They should unban Vice because the powerlevel of the format has grown significantly and it does not provide a particularly powerful effect in abstract" is completely different from "Ban Brainstorm, because the only true path is Green cards, death to the Blue Infidels."

The context of the opinion, in this case, holds significantly more merit than the actual opinion itself.

Might as well have a thread in GD asking which Dark Ritual art is the best...

[Aggro_zombies]

Mod note: This was run by the mods and okayed PROVIDED that it not degenerate into a clusterfuck. Vote in the poll if you want, but if this thread starts to shit itself it will get killed.

EDIT: For clarity - it was decided that unbanning discussions were different enough from banning discussions that we could allow this post outside the B&R Quarantine Thread. This is not to say that people should rush to make a million "[SCD] Why Is Survival Not Legal Yet?" threads because dear god please no, just that a thread with a poll and dealing only with unbans was approved this one time.

[Finn]

Voted for Black Vise specifically because it has the potential to be the centerpiece of a kind of deck that currently does not exist.

[Undomian]

Voted for Frantic Search because I believe the power level of the card is low enough to not wreck the format and high enough to actually enable certain archetypes to be major competitors once again.

[amalek0]

If I'm out of line, let me know. Unbanning is obviously a topic that the legacy community looks at with interest in that it can shake up the format without altering the power structure of the format greatly, but what categorizes a card that is safe to unban?

We recently had an unban of worldgorger dragon, with the defense that it's not likely to screw tournaments over by forcing drawn games, and it's much more easily disrupted than in past years. Yet, I think most people would agree that cards like black vise would behave even more benignly than worldgorger dragon in terms of how you can disrupt it and interactions with the format? What quality is it that makes the dragon a candidate for an unban and not black vise?

[death]

What quality is it that makes the dragon a candidate for an unban and not black vise?

Graveyard strategies weren't well represented during the Treasure Cruise era. It was noted that blue-red Delver was overperforming/hurting format diversity. Black Vise if unbanned could easily go in UR Delver/Burn decks and possibly make a negative effect on the said TC ban.


Unbanning is obviously a topic that the legacy community looks at with interest in that it can shake up the format without altering the power structure of the format greatly, but what categorizes a card that is safe to unban?

They may already have a list of a few "safe" cards ready to be unbanned. But like you said, they can't unban all of them at once unless necessary. The format needed a shake up after Treasure Cruise and they rationalized that WGD is the one that is safe enough to come out of the list. I'm sure Black Vise, Mind Twist and Earthcraft will have their time too.

Memory Jar, Mind's Desire, Windfall, Yawgmoth's Bargain and Frantic Search are all draw engines. Remember we just got rid of a cheap draw spell. When Griselbrand and Show and Tell are legal, I don't expect/wish any of those to be unbanned soon.

[Teveshszat]

Voted for other card . Because if we really talking about all these busted cards to unban I want Manadrain for my Control Deck.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It's strange to have a vote thread where you cannot support your opinion. Thererefore I'm not sure what's the real idea behind this thread, especially considering that we are forced to chose from the ten or what choices. Thus I abstain and simply return to wehre I was hiding till now.

Unban Windfall.

edit:

Might as well have a thread in GD asking which Dark Ritual art is the best...
Oops yeah, that.

[phonics]

Unban everything on that list.

[Julian23]

The question of asking what the "motivation" behind this thread was is based on the assumption that just knowing how people feel is of not enough value. In fact, this is what this thread is about: find out what people think. You guys are to obsessed with why people have certain opinions; this thread is not for the why.

[Ellomdian]

The question of asking what the "motivation" behind this thread was is based on the assumption that just knowing how people feel is of not enough value. In fact, this is what this thread is about: find out what people think. You guys are to obsessed with why people have certain opinions; this thread is not for the why.

At the risk of falling on the bad side of a mod I respect quite a bit -

If the method of data collection had any basis in reality, it might serve a purpose. But as an anonymous, very abstract opinion poll, if people aren't able to discuss the 'why', the 'what' is of little to no empirical value.

Is the author going to use this poll to write an article discussing the merits of individual cards based on popular opinion? Already done, many times over. Is the author secretly a WotC insider looking for opinions? I hope not, that's just a horrific idea both from a bias perspective and from the above mentioned issues.

While I respect that I may just not be seeing the worth of this exercise, I remain fundamentally skeptical to the value of any data without context or controls.

Then again, I suppose I am free to put my Dark Rit Art Discussion poll up and see how quickly it's nailed to the floor outside the given pretext of this one.

[Julian23]

See, that's where your assumptions just cloud your logical thinking. There is a clear context to it: registered members of The Source voting in a poll on how they feel.

We don't know whether this data will be used for anything. If you see it appear somewhere else, you can always bring up your concerns then. For now, it's just "Hey, how do you feel about xyz? That way? Ok, cool, now I know how you feel."

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Ok, cool, now I know how you feel."

I'm like 100% sure that if I'd make a thread about how do you feel about Mystic Enforcer, it'll be dead in a minute.
So yeah, it's all pointless, but lets wait till tomorow.

[Julian23]

I'm like 100% sure that if I'd make a thread about how do you feel about Mystic Enforcer, it'll be dead in a minute.
So yeah, it's all pointless, but lets wait till tomorow.

That's because Mystic Enforcer is not entertaining/interesting.

[Aggro_zombies]

I wasn't the mod who was messaged about this thread, so I can't say for certain, but my guess is that the user asked for no discussion simply because the B&R list has historically proven to be a contentious issue and anything relating to it often devolves into a cesspool of complaints, one-liners, and general headaches. It's possible that this is simply data gathering for the user's curiosity, or perhaps for an article, or maybe something else.

It's kind of irrelevant. Just vote in the poll and try not to get into fights with each other. If you feel your choice in particular needs a justification, as in, "I voted for X because I think..." then that's fine. Just don't come into the thread, quote someone making a potentially controversial choice, and say, "well u r dumb cuz that card is borken also Brainstorm" because those posts will get deleted for being flamebait.

[TsumiBand]

Shahrazad.

Its banning was never about power level, tournament results, or undue exchange of property like ante or a physical skill like dexterity. It was strictly theoretical; subgame.dec always sucked and the m10 change of RFG to exile arguably made the deck much worse (because Wishes no longer operated on cards exiled during a subgame, because exile isn't outside the game). It was a total non-starter cheesedick deck, with a silly card in the middle of it that just didn't actually do a hell of a lot.

Its biggest issue was its notoriety, basically, which shouldn't ever be cause to ban anything - results first and foremost, imho. And there weren't any.

[DarthVicious]

Voted for Black Vise because it's Black Vise. That is all.

Also voted for Mind Twist because it's my favorite card ever printed. And I'm obviously biased towards black.

[Plague Sliver]

I like this thread. No bullshit, no 20-page Brainstorm treatises going nowhere, just vote. Voted.

[tescrin]

Unban Brainstorm!

I'd be happy with Frantic Search and really* happy with Mind Twist. The latter is an iconic discard spell and one of my favorite cards. We still have a draw three for 1 and a draw 3 for 2 in Legacy; lots of anti-discard cards to be used and plenty of things like Brainstorm and Spell Pierce to keep it in check (if anyone is worried about it.)

[death]

Of the top 4 most popular (Black Vise, Mind Twist, Earthcraft, Survival) the one that poses a positive impact is Earthcraft. It will make Enchantress tier 1 and more non-blue in the top 8 is alright. Right?

Voted for Earthcraft.

[Amon Amarth]

Voted for all but Bargain and a part of me wonders if that is OK too.

[Bobmans]

People vote for Black Vise and Mind Twist?? BOORING... Survival of the Fittest has my vote, always have, always will. But i do NOT like Vengevine wasting the awesomeness of various other decks that where and will be if SotF would be unbanned. Full English Breakfast!!

[Lemnear]

People vote for Black Vise and Mind Twist?? BOORING... Survival of the Fittest has my vote, always have, always will. But i do NOT like Vengevine wasting the awesomeness of various other decks that where and will be if SotF would be unbanned. Full English Breakfast!!

This sounds like arguing that unbanning Necropotence is a good idea because it would make awesome decks like Necro Knights playable! Yey! Ignore the tier 1 abuse/potential for all the cards!

/sarcasm

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Voted for Black Vise, Frantic Search and Mind Twist.

I have 46 Black Vises.
I have 108 Frantic Searches.
I have 11 Mind Twists.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Voted: Black Vise Earthcraft Mind Twist Survival of the Fittest

I dont like the storm-cards!
And I dont think Earthcraft is good in Enchantres.


Dark Ritual:
http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/051/a/d/extended_art_dark_ritual_by_fnhalteration-d4qcgkt.jpg

[Darkenslight]

I voted for Vise, Craft, Search and Twist,

Of those four, the least likely to be unbanned is Frantic Search, because of what it does after the filter effect.

[apple713]

I voted for all of the following because in a even if the unbanning of all of these resulted in a few months of utter chaos(until the next ban/restrict list announcement), deck statistics would clearly indicate which were a mistake and which were not. Such a circumstance would not be much worse if at all worse than a world where wizards prints a card such as Treasure cruise and then subsequently ban it at first opportunity. (Treasure cruise was only used as a reference and I neither agree or disagree with its banning)

Black Vise - at best turn 1 its a lightning bolt. With further deck dedication the strengths of this card can be increased. It is no more or less degenerate than an all in deck such as goblin charbelcher, and a strategy that is used to take life from opponent over several turns does not seem like an over powered strategy.
Earthcraft - far more degenerate combos exist for the mana cost of 1G and 1GG such as to be combined with squirrel nest.
Frantic Search - although potentially abusable in a deck such as high tide, the result is -1 card disadvantage. Potential combination with a deck like survival which abuses madness would warrant close watch
Memory Jar - since the color pie is arguably losing clear lines this card is no more powerful than a delayed time reversal. time reversal saw no play while this could due to its accessibility to other colors. 5 mana is a large commitment for most legacy decks. Outside of mud and 12 post most decks would not be able to play such a card to an advantage.
Mind Twist - Currently this card exists with an increased mana cost of BBX and has seen 0 play in competitive legacy decks. Would reducing that mean that mind twist becomes a rapid degeneration to the format? Probably not. at cmc 2 this card is terrible and hymn would be played over it. at cmc 3, this card is a hymn. at cmc 4 this card has greater potential to tear apart control decks who are sculpting their hands. While liliana comes down a turn earlier and has a more permanent effect on hand sculpting this card outside of acceleration is clearly inferior to current card choices in the format. When combined with acceleration this clearly has a more disastrous effect but would then result in a deck with discard and acceleration which are both very week in late game.
Mind's Desire - With the power level of ANT/ current storm variants, adding a card that costs 1 more mana and has a greater chance for random failure seems ok to release to the format. The greatest concern of this card would be in the consumption of time it takes to resolve, having to shuffle between each iteration.
Survival of the Fittest - grave strategies have become increasingly weak due the the natural inclusion of cards like DRS into normal deck construction. Several decks have been created since its banning and it deserves another chance in the format.
Yawgmoth's Bargain - this card I did not vote for and is significantly more powerful than griselbrand. Being able to piecemeal life for cards is the dream of any magic player. life gain as become easily accessible to all colors with batter skull and wurmcoil engine. Although i would love to play with this card again i would not want my opponents to ever have this in play.


please if you have any comments on my reasoning for fear of having the thread locked, private message me your comments.

[Hoojo]

Demonic Consultation, Black Vise, Earthcraft, Frantic Search, Goblin Recruiter, Mind Twist, Survival of the Fittest. I would have included Windfall too.

[Whippoorwill]

It's never going to happen, but I voted for Mind's Desire. I just like doing stupid things.

[Richard Cheese]

Shahrazad.

Its banning was never about power level, tournament results, or undue exchange of property like ante or a physical skill like dexterity. It was strictly theoretical; subgame.dec always sucked and the m10 change of RFG to exile arguably made the deck much worse (because Wishes no longer operated on cards exiled during a subgame, because exile isn't outside the game). It was a total non-starter cheesedick deck, with a silly card in the middle of it that just didn't actually do a hell of a lot.

Its biggest issue was its notoriety, basically, which shouldn't ever be cause to ban anything - results first and foremost, imho. And there weren't any.

I thought Shahrazad was just banned to try and streamline tournament play, assumption being that it would drag out rounds and result in a bunch of draws. Clearly they aren't as worried about that anymore since we got Karn.

Also I voted for Black Vise just because I have one in almost every language it was printed in.

[TsumiBand]

I thought Shahrazad was just banned to try and streamline tournament play, assumption being that it would drag out rounds and result in a bunch of draws. Clearly they aren't as worried about that anymore since we got Karn.

There's a ton of room for ambiguity in the idea that a card should be banned for its capacity to "drag out rounds". And unlike other cards which can be used to stall - too many to mention, in fact, anything from Thalia to Smokestack to Moat to Solitary Confinement and all things in between - Shahrazad is probably the only one that can be countered on resolution by simply conceding the subgame. Which effectively turns it into ":w::w:: Target opponent loses half their life. Both players shuffle their libraries." Potent, but not damning - and the proof is in the performance. This just didn't happen on a wide-enough scale to warrant the ban, IMHO.

And you're right, Karn can do something that's functionally very very similar. If the concern is to avoid restarting the game state then Karn should be principally banned as well. Nothing says that Karn will ever actually put anything in play, and if he does, nothing says that it will be creatures, and if they are, nothing says the controller has to attack with them. If someone builds a terrible horrible no good very bad TurboKarn deck that can prove itself to function on the basis of restarting the game ad dorkium, does it need baninating? Even if the deck is balls-tastically bad?

Like it isn't even on a par with Four Horsemen or infinite Time Walk recursion or any of those bad things; it's literally just a "well, this *could* happen", not "this card/this deck is continually wrecking tournament structure".

[Ace/Homebrew]

Shahrazad
Tsumi, u r dumb cuz that card is borken.

Voted for Goblin Recruiter because it has the most potential to add something to a struggling archetype without radically altering the meta game.

[Mr Miagi]

I like the no discussing part of this topic :smile:

[TsumiBand]

Tsumi, u r dumb cuz that card is borken.

You punched my feels in the dick! It's super effective!


Voted for Goblin Recruiter because it has the most potential to add something to a struggling archetype without radically altering the meta game.

See I would love to say Recruiter (especially because (a) I've been rocking Goblins for like 10 years and I would play the shit out of some Recruiters (b) who the fuck am I kidding, unbanning Shah does nothing because the deck really is as bad as I said it is) but I cannot help the feeling that letting Goblins stack its deck and combo off only makes Goblins into Yet Another Combo Deck, only with far less points of failure and a maindeck transformational sideboard. Pretty sure that in concert with Cavern of Souls and Aether Vial the deck goes from a struggling archetype to a horribly resilient combo deck that can also play aggro pretty well. I don't even mean Food Chain Goblins, with the proper deck stack all you really have to have is a Prospector + series of War Marshals and a couple Warchiefs.

And there are stacks for everything; your 'play around X Force of Wills' stack, your 'win before stupid S&T player gets there' stack, your 'attacking sucks right now so let's poop out a combo win' stack, and so on. So in addition to having a combo/aggro hybrid that's suddenly making Elves! look like Elves? but it's now got a means of deciding which combo/which aggro it's going to draw into. Bwoah.

I mean unless you're just trolling and you're trying to make Shadow of Doubt into a good card :) I'd love to play Goblin Recruiter again! I might even still have some lying around.

[Searys]

Eeeeh i don't get the "overpowered" stack of gobelins you can do with recruiter i must be lacking some knowledge of goblins combo :laugh:

[tescrin]

I think Recruiter could do alright for a short time, but Elves, Storm, S&T, and other combo decks could still beat it up pretty good. Goblins would still be stuck with it's primary issue of "I can't cast 4-mana guys and I can't swing with Lackey."

The idea behind having a second "Elves" deck would be nice. I think that it's cool there there's Dredge, Storm, Big-dude Combo, Helm/Painter/etc., and Elves; but Elves could instead be "aggro-combo" with Goblins; which would expand the subset.

[TsumiBand]

In fairness, I don't think Goblins is inherently "overpowered" and I'm really sure I didn't say that. I do think Goblins + Recruiter is resilient and varied in its tactics, though, which would make it a very tough deck to actually attack effectively.

Recruiter by itself is actually pretty rad, right -- giving yourself the best topdeck ever for 20 turns in a row is solid, the only other card that does half as much work is Doomsday and that thing requires most of your deck and your life. But in addition to that there are multiple paths to victory with multiple cards that cross each other in ways that make certain cards real difficult to just attack on their face value. Siege-Gang Commander works real well with Sharpshooter and Prospector, but it also aggros out with Piledriver and a Goblin Lord or two (or five). Lightning Crafter + Kiki-Jiki exists as an infinite damage engine that requires no mana, and while Lightning Crafter is not fantastic on its own Kiki-Jiki requires no introduction and does work with every creature in the deck.

That's not an exhaustive list of Goblin.dec's bag of tricks -- the point I'm trying to make is that you can't just evaluate a certain kind of Goblin play and go, like, "oh, my opponent is leading with Siege-Gang Commander, he must be going for the aggro kill" because it can serve multiple roles. I'm not saying it's broken, it's just insanely hard to assume you're hating against the right strategy. There aren't really very many other decks that can make that claim AND play a card that lets them put their 20 favorite spells on top of the deck.

[Ace/Homebrew]

...that's suddenly making Elves! look like Elves?
Hah! :laugh:

Assuming a classic Goblins list with 4 Recruiters jammed in, you'd be forced to cut 4 cards. Most likely you would lose the toolbox (Stingscourger, Anti-Artifact Gob, Sharpshooter, and removal/S-GC) and focus on assembling Ringleader into Prospector, Warchief, Piledriver, Piledriver FTW. Even then you'd need Lackey to connect, 4 mana, or Vial on 4 to cast the Ringleader in the first place plus more mana to get the Warchief in play. Plus you probably have to make a cut for Prospector...
My point is jamming Recruiter into a Goblins list allows a combo kills at the cost of something (in this case versatility).

Making Food Chain Goblins would weaken the manabase and you'd have to cut 4 additional threats. And you still don't combo faster than real combo decks.

I just don't see Recruiter turning Goblins into a turn 1 or 2 combo deck. And if it is a turn 4 combo deck, who cares? "Lackey --> S-GC, play Piledriver" kills on turn 3 right now and Goblins isn't a DTB...

[Ellomdian]

Yey! Ignore the tier 1 abuse/potential for all the cards!

It's virtually impossible to have this discussion without people choosing to ignore the sickest, most abusive use of a card that they just want to have funsies with.

Having said that - Unban Academy. At least I am honest about the terrible, despicable things I want to do with it.



Dark Ritual:
http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/051/a/d/extended_art_dark_ritual_by_fnhalteration-d4qcgkt.jpg

Sickness...


I thought Shahrazad was just banned to try and streamline tournament play, assumption being that it would drag out rounds and result in a bunch of draws.

Based on the discussion I was privy to at the time, it was banned not because of time concerns, but because of space ones. Subgames require 2 gamestates to be maintained, while just restarting the game does not.

[Searys]

I didn't even knew that goblin recruiter was banned and honestly, if it was unbanned that will have absolutely no effect on legacy (imho) the chain goblin deck is so bad it's hilarious anybody can even think playing it seriously (some peoples laughted about playing WGD combo, the combo is clearly more powerful than just... that.)

The card itself is indeed good, but goblin would still be a tier 3 deck with no chances to go higher.

[Tourach]

I didn't even knew that goblin recruiter was banned and honestly, if it was unbanned that will have absolutely no effect on legacy (imho) the chain goblin deck is so bad it's hilarious anybody can even think playing it seriously (some peoples laughted about playing WGD combo, the combo is clearly more powerful than just... that.)

The card itself is indeed good, but goblin would still be a tier 3 deck with no chances to go higher.

Goblins is Tier 2 even now. In the hands of a competent pilot it has even to positive matchups against Miracles as well as most fair decks and game against the unfair decks. Its strength lies in explosiveness coupled with the ability to recharge after removal. Even a Terminus won't do unless you follow up with an Entreat soon after.

That being said, the question in this thread is wether Recruiter helps the deck too much. I don't see it helping much in the bad matchups like Storm. It is too slow for that. It might however make good matchups even better.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I don't see it helping much in the bad matchups like Storm. It is too slow for that. It might however make good matchups even better.
Very much this.

DRS and SFM made good matchups worse for Goblins. Unbanning Recruiter seems like it would let Goblins gain back some ground.

[MaximumC]

Very much this.

DRS and SFM made good matchups worse for Goblins. Unbanning Recruiter seems like it would let Goblins gain back some ground.

I think the initial problem was not getting value out of your Ringleaders or any such silliness, but that Recruiter is an instant-kill with Belcher in a Goblin deck. Are we comfortable giving Goblins a combo finish like that?

[Dice_Box]

I think the initial problem was not getting value out of your Ringleaders or any such silliness, but that Recruiter is an instant-kill with Belcher in a Goblin deck. Are we comfortable giving Goblins a combo finish like that?

It costs more mana than the Food Chain kill but is easier to set up. I do not see an issue with Belcher hear, plus Food Chain is a better card if you draw it without the Recruiter.

[maharis]

I think the initial problem was not getting value out of your Ringleaders or any such silliness, but that Recruiter is an instant-kill with Belcher in a Goblin deck. Are we comfortable giving Goblins a combo finish like that?

the deck has to find and resolve a 4-mana artifact, then resolve recruiter, then activate belcher. They would be just as well off running RIP-helm.

I think the real reason was the amount of time it takes to resolve Recruiter. The card is now the only non-ante creature on the legacy banned list and both it and Worldgorger are more annoying than dangerous.

[death]

I think the real reason was the amount of time it takes to resolve Recruiter. The card is now the only non-ante creature on the legacy banned list and both it and Worldgorger are more annoying than dangerous.

Recruiter and Hermit Druid.

[Ace/Homebrew]

the deck has to find and resolve a 4-mana artifact, then resolve recruiter, then activate belcher. They would be just as well off running RIP-helm.
I agree with you here. :smile:


I think the real reason was the amount of time it takes to resolve Recruiter.
Can you support this statement with anything from Wizards? Cause it really doesn't sound right.
There are only about 10 different goblins in a Vial Goblins deck...

If you cast a Recruiter, you have a pile in mind. A goblin player using Recruiter probably takes less time stacking goblins in a round than a Miracles player spends spinning Top. :rolleyes:

[from Cairo]

RE: Goblin Recruiter


Can you support this statement with anything from Wizards?

This is what I could dig up on Recruiter from the times of the format split and it's banning in old Extended:


What's on there [the banned list]:
...
Cards that are/were banned in Extended: Not every card that has ever been banned in Extended is banned in this new format, but we felt the most powerful ones had no place here. These include Earthcraft, Goblin Recruiter, Hermit Druid, Land Tax, Oath of Druids, Replenish, and newly exiled Skullclamp and Metalworker. With “1.5” now a little less like Vintage and a little more like Extended, it makes sense that the banned list is a compromise between the two. Most of these cards are very cheap combo enablers that are hard to defend against.
...

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/september-br-list-update-2003-09-03


Goblin Recruiter
Goblin Recruiter's ability to stack an arbitrarily large portion of your deck allows goblin-based combo decks to kill as early as turn 2. That's too fast for a healthy environment and the Recruiter is one of several casualties of our effort to eliminate realistic turn 2 kills from the environment.

http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/feature/189


Goblin Recruiter

Goblin Recruiter
Goblin Recruiter plays a completely unique role in two different combo decks: Food Chain and Goblin Charbelcher decks both required him before they could pull off their combo. In addition, its synergy with Goblin Ringleader was remarkable and probably could still be abused in some other way even if Food Chain and Charbelcher didn’t exist. Thus, we all agreed pretty quickly that the Recruiter had to go. We talked about the fact that it’s still possible to build Charbelcher decks–-in fact, it was the Mana Severance/Charbelcher decks that did the best in New Orleans, not the Recruiter/Charbelcher versions. However, we took Tinker, Ancient Tomb, and Grim Monolith out of the Mana Severance decks and we think that’s enough to knock them down to size. Without Tinker, Severance plus Charbelcher costs a total of nine mana, and it requires seven on the same turm if you want to play around artifact removal spells. Maybe it’ll still be good, but without Monolith or Tinker or Ancient Tomb I don’t think those decks will be overpowered. (Note that this is by no means the only 2-card “I win” combo in Extended. Pandemonium plus Saproling Burst has been sitting there for years and no one has managed to do much with it.)

http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/rb100

Nothing about the time consumption, though the Extended Announcement does reference "stacking an arbitrarily large portion of one's deck". The conversation is interesting, maybe someone else can dig up more on it.

[Julian23]

"That's too fast for [...] our effort to eliminate realistic turn 2 kills from the environment."

>10 years later:

http://res.cloudinary.com/urbandictionary/image/upload/a_exif,c_fit,h_200,w_200/v1395991705/gjn81wvxqsq6yzcwubok.png

[LeoCop 90]

I voted for recruiter too because i'm pretty sure it is safe, it would give new life to an archetype that a lot of people love, and , most importantly, because goblins is my favorite deck and i don't want to spend the rest of my life looking at spoilers and waiting for wizard to print a new overpowered goblins to make the archetype good again :cool:

[Lemnear]

I voted for recruiter too because i'm pretty sure it is safe, it would give new life to an archetype that a lot of people love, and , most importantly, because goblins is my favorite deck and i don't want to spend the rest of my life looking at spoilers and waiting for wizard to print a new overpowered goblins to make the archetype good again :cool:

And I want to play Necro Trix again because I enjoyed it so much like many old school players and Mind's Desire was a popular Extended deck people enjoyed...

Sometimes I wonder if you guys actually ever played against Recruiter in a tournament or if this is the mere talk of people who start after Ravnica and never saw the decks of old and interactions that fed those decks, which think Griselbrand is fine but Bargain is broken which is laughable. I doubt those people were ever forced into a draw by Sharazard or Goblin Recruiter if their opponent counted cards, looked through yards, took notes, stacks 15 cards, looks at notes again, adjust pile, shuffles ... just to repeat the procedure right the next turn and you keep discussing with half the store and the Judge why they don't kick the guy for slowplay.

Edit: mind that Doomsday can't be really used to Stack the deck several times within a game and does create much smaller piles.

[LOLWut]

Just a reminder to play nice so we can have nice things :smile: If that can't be done, shhhhhhhhh :cool:

[Chatto]

Voted for Goblin Recruiter, because I just like the little Green Men.

EDIT; and no, I haven't played it on a tournament, and yes, slowplay is killing... But hey, give me a chance to play it and perhaps I really hate it and won't play Goblin Recruiter at all.

[M+1]

I doubt those people were ever forced into a draw by Sharazard or Goblin Recruiter

http://www.savethestudent.org/uploads/mythbustersinnit.jpg

[Searys]

The slowplay argument is stupid... Let's ban lim duls vault, doomsday, sensei's divining top because 3 players out of 1000 actually slow play with it... Please...

For shahrazad it's different, it's actually too long to make sub games, that's a fact.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Isnt it odd that they unbanned WGD who has a greater potential to draw/drag out games?

[Sandro95]

Isnt it odd that they unbanned WGD who has a greater potential to draw/drag out games?

The issue isn't with drawing individual games, but matches going to time and ending up a draw. If you draw the game on turn 2 with a reanimator deck, you're still propably fine time-wise.

Resolving a Goblin Recruiter shouldn't take too long when you're free to combo kill your opponent. Resolving one properly while trying to play around multiple combinations of disruption that your opponent could have would be much more time consuming.

[keys]

Mana Drain

[Humphrey]

I voted for all but Recruiter. I think all of them are ok right now, but Recruiter is too timeconsuming.

[(nameless one)]

I voted Memory Jar because I just love my Goblin Welders. It could also push Daretti into the "red planeswalker". We have Elspeth, Jace and Lilliana. Why can't red have that. (Though green doesn't have one too)

[death]

Can't get over the fact that Hermit fuckin Druid is not on the list. Every deck has a main deck answer to it Jesus F. Christ: Swords, Bolt, Decay. The same can't be said about Bargain (or Desire) yet people are still voting for these jeez.

Without Mana Vault and Tinker, I think Jar can safely come off the list. Unfortunately, I have already voted for Earthcraft :(

[TsumiBand]

Sometimes I wonder if you guys actually ever played against Recruiter in a tournament or if this is the mere talk of people who start after Ravnica and never saw the decks of old and interactions that fed those decks, which think Griselbrand is fine but Bargain is broken which is laughable. I doubt those people were ever forced into a draw by Sharazard

At least for my part I've been playing Goblins on and off since Goblin Piledriver was printed. With/without Food Chain, with/without Recruiter. I would love to sleeve that little scamp up again. Especially if I were playing with a bunch of people who don't recognize just what it means for a deck with such tight and varied tribal synergy as Goblins to find its 20 favorite cards and assemble them in the right order.

As for Shah.dec sure I've seen it, just virtually never in the Top 16. The only thing it does is prevents decks that would have folded to combo anyway from going to game 2. It's pretty hard to nest subgames when your opponent doesn't GAF about they life total and concedes, then untaps and wins. vOv

[DoorDie]

Black Vise is harmless. Frantic Search and Goblin Recruiter offer promising opportunities without degenerating the format. Slow play can be reprimanded with losses and as such is not generally a good reason to ban cards.

Mind Twist doesn't appear to be threatening unless a worthwhile strategy can be developed that properly trumps a cascade into Hymn.

I'm not sure about Earthcraft. Memory Jar needs a good case made for what it brings to the table besides a one-sided Wheel, which is also banned. Mind's Desire I have no clue. Survival is still too strong.

Bargain is different enough from the 7/7 flying, lifelink, legendary version (in terms of viable answers, activation granularity, and setup cost) that it deserves to remain banned. However, I have no personal attachment to any Bargain-style effect (despite playing the creature myself) and would be equally happy with all versions banned.

[rufus]

...
As for Shah.dec sure I've seen it, just virtually never in the Top 16. The only thing it does is prevents decks that would have folded to combo anyway from going to game 2. It's pretty hard to nest subgames when your opponent doesn't GAF about they life total and concedes, then untaps and wins. vOv

In my mind, Shahrazad could see legitimate use in matchups where a deck is playing the aggro role since something like :W::W: and 1 card for 6 damage is a pretty decent deal, even by legacy standards. And, if the opponent has good incentive to actually play out the subgame, you could get 10 sub-games in one game just from a 4-of.

[btm10]

Can't get over the fact that Hermit fuckin Druid is not on the list. Every deck has a main deck answer to it Jesus F. Christ: Swords, Bolt, Decay. The same can't be said about Bargain (or Desire) yet people are still voting for these jeez.


A better reason might be how good graveyard hate has gotten. He would actually make Oops a little more reliable (they may even run a singleton Bayou!), but while that makes a bad deck still-not-good-enough, the deck it improves is so obnoxious I don't think we want to see more of it. Druid can also set up more dangerous combos, but they're all also sort of meh. It's probably safe.



Without Mana Vault and Tinker, I think Jar can safely come off the list. Unfortunately, I have already voted for Earthcraft :(

There's an argument here. I'm not totally convinced that Jar is safe given how much mana decks like Belcher and Storm can generate, but it might be worth looking at. If it didn't push Belcher over the top I think it might be ok because ANT usually gets more than 7 cards from Ad Nauseam and you probably can't run Jar in an Ad Nauseam deck. As it stands now, if MUD is casting 7 mana spells, they're probably winning.

I'd actually be more interested in unbanning Mana Vault both for MUD and combo applications on a look-and-see basis.


Mana Drain

Drain would almost surely make Blade and other midrange-control decks way too good. The biggest drawback to SFM is that you usually need both of its abilities to steal games, so everyone has a chance to interact with it either with discard, leaving the Blade player with a vanilla 1/2 until they naturally draw another equipment, or removal to kill the Mystic and force the Blade player to hardcast the equipment or throw it back with Brainstorm. Giving those decks Drain means that all SFM is is a card-neutral tutor on legs, with killing it being a pretty poor out to your opponent putting Batterskull or Jitte into play. Drain even provides a layer of protection against midgame discard to get the equipment because something as simple as Draining a Tarmogoyf with four lands in play means that the Drain player can untap, play SFM, find, cast, and equip Jitte. It also enables things like turn 3 Jace through Daze if a 2 mana spell is Drained.

For the record, I voted for Vise, Earthcraft, Survival, Mind Twist, and Frantic Search. I'm a little hesitant on Search and Survival, but I'd like to seem them unbanned to see what happens. As the most powerful cards that I think are probably safe, they're the ones to look to for metagame shakeups. Earthcraft would make Enchantress competitive, but it wouldn't significantly shift the meta beyond that.

[Aggro_zombies]

The slowplay argument is stupid... Let's ban lim duls vault, doomsday, sensei's divining top because 3 players out of 1000 actually slow play with it... Please...

For shahrazad it's different, it's actually too long to make sub games, that's a fact.
It only takes three players out of a thousand to grind every round out for an extra ten minutes well into the tournament. Especially at large tournaments where rounds are already running behind, this added time can get pretty miserable. I would not want to be at a GP-sized event with 75+ minute rounds every round on day one, for example.

For my choice: I voted Mind Twist but in retrospect I probably should have voted for Black Vise too. I think those are the ones most likely to come off the list next, though Wizards seems to be saving unbans to sweeten ban announcements, and I'd hope we don't have too many of those in the future. As for cards not voted for:

Earthcraft, Mind's Desire, Goblin Recruiter, Frantic Search: These are probably fine (probably?), but they're not the lowest-hanging fruit. The best home for each of these (except perhaps Desire) is in a marginalized deck, so that's a plus.

Bargain, Jar: These are pretty much exclusively combo cards, and I don't feel like combo really needs the boost in the format. Bargain is a pretty strict upgrade to Ad Naus, I think, and Jar would probably spawn its own deck alongside something like Past in Flames (it might be what makes straight UR Storm viable).

Survival: People are jonesing to have this card come off and I'm pretty sure 90% of that is nostalgia rather than a desire to see a cheap, repeatable tutor engine in the format. I'd imagine the nostalgia would wear off mighty quick when people start tutoring for Griselly Bear as part of some Tin Fins-style combo engine, for example, or reanimating Emrakul with Loyal Retainers and then swinging after pitching to bin an Anger. Fun times ahoy!

Cards Not Listed: There are only a couple cards left that are even remotely close to being acceptable in the format. Druid is the hero Oops All Spells needs, but it's certainly not the hero the format deserves; I think the card would be incredibly strong, and perhaps only effectively checked by Abrupt Decay since you can fill the deck with a lot of protection since the combo package only takes seven or so slots plus four Druids. Mana Drain would be interesting in midrange Stoneblade-style decks, but combo decks using Drain to fuel broken turns might end up being better homes for the card, and I'm not a huge fan of making non-interactive strategies better when they're already good. Mystical Tutor is a combo card, though most of the good spellss filtering into the format these days mostly end up in midrange decks that care about the card disadvantage.

[Amon Amarth]

@AZ: Jar would be pretty sweet in MUD, especially in conjunction with Metalworker. It certainly has applications there since MUD tends to run out of gas pretty fast. Also Welder. Yum!

[Finn]

I don't know how we can have a discussion thread that insists upon no discussion, so I wish to discuss.

Before it was banned, I worked Shahrazad into Burn and Affinity. I remember wanting to put it into Dredge, but I can't recall if the banning was before Bridge from Below. I suspect that it was since I never used them together. The card needs to stay banned or bad people with no sense of ethics will get hold of it...people like me. :)

Some of you may recall that quaint little combo that I made involving infinite, but indefinite number of loops with Emrakul, Dread Return, a creature and Goblin Bombardment in Four Horsemen. The headaches that combo caused are nothing compared to what I did locally with Shahrazad.

In Affinity, it was simply a means to prevent game 2 from ever finishing. Affinity had a great game 1 and an awful postboard problem, sort of like Dredge has always had. So this made sense.

But in "Concuburn". Oh hell it was awesome. You play red/white with 4 Shahrazads. If it is in your opening 7, you did not ever cast a spell on turn 1. You went t2 Shahrazad, and opened up a new game. If you could get another Shahrazad in that 7, you basically have the match won. At that point, and especially if you are always choosing to go second, your opponent is down by about 20 cards. Most Legacy decks could not operate quite well enough to keep up, with their fetchlands nerfed and their numbers a bit wonky, to prevent even-keeled Burn from taking them to zero just once. The interior games are easier with every layer you go. ( The movie Inception made me think of these games the whole time I was watching it.)

If you do that, every containing game is far simpler because the opponent is returned to it with like 9 or 10 life (and remember, you chose not to zap them on turn 1). And you aren't going to complete a game 2. The only real issue was deciding when to wait and when to go traditional Burn. But Shahrazad is a great topdeck in Concuburn too, especially in game 2 when your plan is simply to not let the game end.

Best burn spell ever.

Don't even get me started on Shahrazad Dragon aggro. I can't imagine it would be good, but a Dragon deck that actually seeks the infinite loop without a wincon just feels wrong. The card says you both lose the life in case of a tie!

[Richard Cheese]

Shahrazad stuff

That's actually really interesting. I totally forgot that it's a subgame rather than a restart like Karn.

[rufus]

Before it was banned, I worked Shahrazad into Burn and Affinity. I remember wanting to put it into Dredge, but I can't recall if the banning was before Bridge from Below. I suspect that it was since I never used them together. The card needs to stay banned or bad people with no sense of ethics will get hold of it...people like me. :)


I didn't think Shahrazad had a window of legality in legacy. When was that?

I also have to say that part of me really likes the idea of a card that punishes people for playing deck-thinning game plans by somehow restarting the game.

Edit: Someone silly could infinitely stack subgames with Research // Development. Can a player 'mulligan to survive' if there are fewer than 7 cards in his or her library?

[Lemnear]

That's actually really interesting. I totally forgot that it's a subgame rather than a restart like Karn.

I admit I did not thought of the effect the card has on current deck design starting with all the tuned Fetch/Dual manabases which suddenly can't find the right lands in subgames, up to all the Tutor stuff like SFM or Infernal Tutor which's targets may end up stranded in one of the subgames.

Very interresting POV

[Richard Cheese]

I still think it was mostly an event-management issue that got it banned. Keeping track of board state in a parent game when moving in/out of a sub game sounds like a massive pain, and it's got to be a huge table real estate hog. Still interesting to think of the practical implications of the card though. Seems like it could be really powerful in fast combo where your opponent basically has to mull to hate or lose.

[sjmcc13]

Keeping track of board state in a parent game when moving in/out of a sub game sounds like a massive pain, and it's got to be a huge table real estate hog. It was. Back before it was banned, the location I played Vintage at had 1 guy with a WW Shahrazad deck, it would consistently go to 2+ subgames and we basically needed to leave an entire table just for that 1 player.

If you had the space board state was not that hard, you could leave the cards as they were and move down the table, or to another one. but you needed extra tools to keep track of things like life.

[Finn]

I didn't think Shahrazad had a window of legality in legacy. When was that?

I also have to say that part of me really likes the idea of a card that punishes people for playing deck-thinning game plans by somehow restarting the game.

Edit: Someone silly could infinitely stack subgames with Research // Development. Can a player 'mulligan to survive' if there are fewer than 7 cards in his or her library?

OK. Now I am in full reminisce mode.
It was legal from the very beginning. (table space and organization was always an issue) It was quietly banned probably before the format was a year old though. I may have been the only person mourning its passing. I do recall that card in particular as being part and parcel of what made the format amazing in the beginning. The idea that it was this novel way of screwing Angry Tradewind Survival by trapping their cards in some erstwhile undefined zone that they could not access with Survival was stupendous. And on the occasion when I got beat in the subgame, the opponents would frequently comment that the whole enterprise was little more than a counterspell since the life loss for me was not important when facing Landstill, ATS, or Solidarity.

The best part of Shahrazad was definitely the mental state you put the opponent into. And I could not help but mention when I cast it that I wanted to "tell you a story" to push it. Especially when I Forked it.

Ahh. Those were the days. Dragon combo has brought some of that nostalgia back. I hope we get some more of these cards back in the years to come.

[rufus]

...
It was legal from the very beginning. ....

Ah, OK. It was banned back when the formats were called "Type 1" and "Type 2". I didn't realize that they unbanned it in the transition.

[Jander78]

Ah, OK. It was banned back when the formats were called "Type 1" and "Type 2". I didn't realize that they unbanned it in the transition.
Shahrazad was legal from 1999 - 2007 for Type 1, 1.5, Legacy, and Vintage.

Edit - Source (http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Timeline_of_DCI_bans_and_restrictions)

[Richard Cheese]

Maybe they should just unban it for Regular REL events.

[feline]

I voted Mind Twist because I don't understand how that's still on the banned list as it is. People dump their hands with rituals early to play things like Tendrils / Belcher / etc for lethal, if you dump your hand to hit all the cards in their hand and pass the turn, that's weaker, so why that's still banned I don't know.

[Julian23]

Clicked on the thread fully expecting you to call for Frantic Search. Now I am sad :cry:

[Admiral_Arzar]

I voted for everything but Yawgmoth's Bargain, and I'm only iffy on that one, not super against it.

Black Vise - This one has been argued and explained to death here and it seems like a ton of people think it's safe so I won't say much about it. I just want an excuse to play Shrapnel Blast in burn again.

Mind Twist - Kind of the same I feel. It may find a home in Veteran Explorer type ramp decks, or perhaps some MUD-type abomination. I feel like if you're running a lot of accel to make the card good, you're just making your deck bad so it doesn't worry me that much.

Earthcraft - I doubt Elves would even play this card, and infinite Squirrels on turn 4 or so is a heck of a lot less broken than a bunch of combos that already exist in the format. Would at least make Enchantress playable again, and that's a cool deck.

Frantic Search - High Tide is my favorite deck in the history of Legacy, and it could use a shot in the arm as the meta has really passed it by. The legality of Search would also dramatically lower the barrier of entry to play the deck, as you could easily play 4 Search, 3 Turnabout and not have to worry about paying an arm and a leg for Candelabra of Tawnos.

Goblin Recruiter - Goblins could use the help, and I feel like judge calls can solve most of the problems that people really worry about it with this card. I'm still a tiny bit iffy about it though.

Memory Jar - Ad Nauseam is infinitely better than this card. Time Reversal, Diminishing Returns, and Reforge the Soul are all legal and see basically zero play (for those who worry about Belcher, Reforge is on color and is rarely played in that deck). MUD could use the card draw, and I feel like there are a lot of fun angles with Welder, Daretti, etc. that could open up.

Mind's Desire - I feel like this card has a stigma attached to it despite the fact that it has never been legal in Legacy. It was fine in Extended and spawned some interesting decks there. In Legacy, I think it is inferior to both Ad Nauseam and Time Spiral, but would still be interesting to play with. It's far more random than Storm's other kill-cons, and is much harder to cast. Full disclosure: this is my favorite card in Magic ;).

Survival of the Fittest - I'm a little iffy about this one, but it could always be re-banned if it dominated again. With the proliferation of cheap (and often maindeck) yard hate that's occurred since the ban, the argument can be made it would be much less powerful than it was before. Anyways, it's a fun card that spawns interesting decks.

The only card I didn't vote for was Bargain. This has more to do with Griselbrand already being a thing (and being obnoxious) than with Bargain itself being particularly over-powered.

[Finn]

Re Earthcraft: Forget squirrels. I am not taking a side on Earthcraft, because I just don't know in today's meta. But I had an Enchantress deck that could go infinite on turn 3 every game. Maybe I could get it to turn 2 with today's cards. It has never been legal in Legacy.

[mlschuma]

I voted for Memory Jar because I want to live in a world where I can chain Lion's Eye Diamonds and Memory Jars until my opponent is bored and dead.

I also voted for pretty much everything on the list except Mind's Desire, but Memory Jar is what I want most for my own selfish motivations.