[Primer] R/G Lands

[CovenantElite30]

Hello all. Here's a black-splash set. Despite the first game, and despite the matchups I faced (you might shit yourself when you see what they are), this wasn't a bad set.

Leagues #13 (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnKd4zx_gmR5z9NJ0-LlmqbblJNMN3CLM)

Takeaways: Thoughtseize rules and seems like the main reason to run the black splash. Abrupt Decays main, while nice on paper, didn't really seem to improve game one percentages as they should have. If you want to run the black splash, I actually suggest this list, rather than the one David Long pioneered: Lands (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=11875&d=267937&f=LE). I'd run four Ports instead of two (which I understand was a budget choice), but otherwise really like that 75.

Am going to do a straight RG set next, but with a sideboard configuration I haven't tried before.

Great video series again!

This is my nightmare playing lands and having to go up against Miracles that many times in a row.

It's safe to say though if Miracles is a huge part of your meta then splashing black is the way to go.

Have you had any thoughts of playing the blue splash?

[barcode]

Great video series again!

This is my nightmare playing lands and having to go up against Miracles that many times in a row.

It's safe to say though if Miracles is a huge part of your meta then splashing black is the way to go.

Have you had any thoughts of playing the blue splash?

The blue splash plays like a very different deck. It is truly a control/prison deck that has that combo finish. I don't mind playing Miracles with it since, baring death by creatures we can win by decking, through Jace ultimate, with Academy Ruins and Engineered Explosives.

[gigapatrick]

Great video series again!

This is my nightmare playing lands and having to go up against Miracles that many times in a row.

It's safe to say though if Miracles is a huge part of your meta then splashing black is the way to go.

Have you had any thoughts of playing the blue splash?

Do you mean splashing a Tropical Island and an Academy Ruins to recur artifacts? Or do you mean running Rug Lands?

In either case, the answer is yes. I've thought about doing both things. In the case of the former, I really don't see why you'd mess with your mana when you have a colorless option in Buried Ruin, which, though inferior to Academy Ruins, keeps your land configuration stable. In the case of the latter, I think RG is just better at winning. If it weren't, we wouldn't see lopsided results in favor of RG (and now RGb). Granted, there are considerations that would mitigate this result (as a cheaper deck, RG might just see wider play), but I'm not really convinced by arguments that use such lines. For example, when I got third place a while back at a Cincy Legacy SCG IQ, I noticed that Bobby Kovacs was also there piloting Rug Lands. Now, he could have had worse matchups than me, but I've got to think that he was just piloting a worse deck, since I imagine his skill with it is much greater than mine with RG. This is just an anecdote that proves nothing, but it is just one more thing that makes me think that RG is strictly better than Rug. It may be the case that we're seeing another shift similar to the one from Rug to RG; now the shift is from RG to RGb. Not sure how this shift will play out, if we'll end up with one being strictly better than the other or if we'll see two equally competitive variations of the deck. Right now, it is looking a little bit like the former. Most Lands lists that show up now are all running the black splash, so we might not be calling it the splash any longer.

[CovenantElite30]

Do you mean splashing a Tropical Island and an Academy Ruins to recur artifacts? Or do you mean running Rug Lands?

In either case, the answer is yes. I've thought about doing both things. In the case of the former, I really don't see why you'd mess with your mana when you have a colorless option in Buried Ruin, which, though inferior to Academy Ruins, keeps your land configuration stable. In the case of the latter, I think RG is just better at winning. If it weren't, we wouldn't see lopsided results in favor of RG (and now RGb). Granted, there are considerations that would mitigate this result (as a cheaper deck, RG might just see wider play), but I'm not really convinced by arguments that use such lines. For example, when I got third place a while back at a Cincy Legacy SCG IQ, I noticed that Bobby Kovacs was also there piloting Rug Lands. Now, he could have had worse matchups than me, but I've got to think that he was just piloting a worse deck, since I imagine his skill with it is much greater than mine with RG. This is just an anecdote that proves nothing, but it is just one more thing that makes me think that RG is strictly better than Rug. It may be the case that we're seeing another shift similar to the one from Rug to RG; now the shift is from RG to RGb. Not sure how this shift will play out, if we'll end up with one being strictly better than the other or if we'll see two equally competitive variations of the deck. Right now, it is looking a little bit like the former. Most Lands lists that show up now are all running the black splash, so we might not be calling it the splash any longer.

I like your insight on the differences between the current RGb and RUG lands lists.

I agree I think the RGb/RG is probably better then the RUG land lists.

With the addition of black aren't we just heading to the Jund Depths lists? I've seen some Dark Depths list that are looking closer and closer to the RGb lists we are playing.

Me as a noob to the RGb/RG lands what makes this RGb/RG the superior Dark Depths deck?

[gigapatrick]

I like your insight on the differences between the current RGb and RUG lands lists.

I agree I think the RGb/RG is probably better then the RUG land lists.

With the addition of black aren't we just heading to the Jund Depths lists? I've seen some Dark Depths list that are looking closer and closer to the RGb lists we are playing.

Me as a noob to the RGb/RG lands what makes this RGb/RG the superior Dark Depths deck?

Jund Depths and Dark Depths are two different decks.

Jund Depths is a Pox variant that trades the power of Exploration and Manabond for the disruption of Smallpox. I don't think that deck is bad, but I would say that it is strictly worse than our deck. Exploration and Manabond are just better than Smallpox, and Gamble is better than Entomb. It has a few more tricks and a few more outs, but so does Rug Lands. Time and time again the speed and consistency of Rg(b) prove better at winning than having tricks and outs. There's no out quite like a 20/20 made EOT. This is why I like to run all four copies of Depths. Why the heck wouldn't you want to "oops, I win" as many games as possible?

Dark Depths is just a straight combo deck. It trades our Loam engine (which provides us resiliency and inevitability) for speed and protection. Don't know much about this deck other than that it hopes to make a turn two or three Lage as often as possible with discard or Not of This World to keep the token from dying. Really couldn't tell you anything more about this deck.

[Rivfader]

With the addition of black aren't we just heading to the Jund Depths lists? I've seen some Dark Depths list that are looking closer and closer to the RGb lists we are playing.
Me as a noob to the RGb/RG lands what makes this RGb/RG the superior Dark Depths deck?

Blacksplashing in RG Lands doesn't essentially change the deck, it (just) adds more flexibility (at the cost of some synergy). Abrupt Decay is basically a maindecked Krosan Grip, with the benefit of being additional creature removal when your opponent isn't playing problematic artifacts or enchantments. Thoughtseize is great as it hits anything we have problems interacting with, as long it's in hand. It offers the flex of abrupt decay in a discard kind of way, especially versus combo and hate, but also versus any deck where the creaturecontrol doesn't really do much (Miracles, Enchantress, ... ). And Dark Confidant is postboard tech through opposing gravehate.

That's quite different from Junddepths, that's essentially a Punishing-Pox deck; Smallpox and Liliana with Pfire and Loam breaking the symmetry. Although many interactions are alike (Pfire-Grove, Loam-waste, Stage-Depths), this is a controldeck in a Poxish way. Black is this deck's primary color, as Liliana and Smallpox need double-B, which limits the amount of utility-lands.

EDIT: simultaneously posted with Gigapatrick ...


There's no out quite like a 20/20 made EOT. This is why I like to run all four copies of Depths. Why the heck wouldn't you want to "oops, I win" as many games as possible?

I very much agree with this; the added amount of control (in Rug or Jund) may add winpercentages against some decks, but the quick combopossibility of RG (b) adds winpercentages against any deck (especially relevant against bad matchups).

[gigapatrick]

Hello all. Just wanted to post a link to BBD's Lands video set (http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-bbd-legacy-lands/) at Channelfireball. Enjoy. He makes an interesting remark at the end comparing straight RG to the black splash, or what he calls "Dark Lands."

[CovenantElite30]

Hello all. Just wanted to post a link to BBD's Lands video set (http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-bbd-legacy-lands/) at Channelfireball. Enjoy. He makes an interesting remark at the end comparing straight RG to the black splash, or what he calls "Dark Lands."

Yeah I watched his series. After playing with vortex myself and watching videos of others playing it, I think it's a bad card main.

The card seems to be more card disadvantage where as P-Fire is more card advantage.

[gigapatrick]

Yeah I watched his series. After playing with vortex myself and watching videos of others playing it, I think it's a bad card main.

The card seems to be more card disadvantage where as P-Fire is more card advantage.

Yeah, I don't think Vortex is a good card. I'll have to watch again, but Punishing Fire seems like it would have been just as good in most of the scenarios BBD encountered.

[Dice_Box]

If you want to run the black splash, I actually suggest this list, rather than the one David Long pioneered: Lands (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=11875&d=267937&f=LE). I'd run four Ports instead of two (which I understand was a budget choice), but otherwise really like that 75.
Tried this tonight. Against Infect Bob was a god. I think he and Thoughtseize make that splash worth it. They helped against Omnishow greatly. (and some large amount of luck helped.)

[Chatto]

Sooo, basically straight RG Lands, with a SB to transform your deck into RGb Lands?

[Dice_Box]

Yes. With Bog moved to the main and a 3 Decay, 2 Grip Split.

[Djehuti]

Yeah, I don't think Vortex is a good card. I'll have to watch again, but Punishing Fire seems like it would have been just as good in most of the scenarios BBD encountered.

PF would probably just be better in at least 2 of the games. Needle and Revoker were pretty pesky in the D&T match, while vortex would just eat abrupt decay against shardless. For the stoneblade matchup, i don't think it makes much of a difference main board and post board both rest in peace and pithing needle are likely to come in.

[gigapatrick]

PF would probably just be better in at least 2 of the games. Needle and Revoker were pretty pesky in the D&T match, while vortex would just eat abrupt decay against shardless. For the stoneblade matchup, i don't think it makes much of a difference main board and post board both rest in peace and pithing needle are likely to come in.

Agreed.

All in all, though, I think the black splash may just be a necessary evolution for the deck. I am a known entity online, but I'm encountering a lot of trouble with the straight RG version. I think I'm going to run Ayers' 75 pretty soon (the one that runs P-Fire and a Bayou main to splash for discard and Abrupt Decays).

[Chatto]

Yes. With Bog moved to the main and a 3 Decay, 2 Grip Split.


Agreed.

All in all, though, I think the black splash may just be a necessary evolution for the deck. I am a known entity online, but I'm encountering a lot of trouble with the straight RG version. I think I'm going to run Ayers' 75 pretty soon (the one that runs P-Fire and a Bayou main to splash for discard and Abrupt Decays).

Curious on how your manabase looks like, guys. I'm finding it hard to find room for all the cards I want to play. I would like to fit a second Bayou in, perhaps Chasm back to the main.

@ Patrick: interesting thought, black splash getting neccesary. If this is really the case, then it would mean the manabase should get a decent make-over.

[fluuu]

Agreed.

All in all, though, I think the black splash may just be a necessary evolution for the deck. I am a known entity online, but I'm encountering a lot of trouble with the straight RG version. I think I'm going to run Ayers' 75 pretty soon (the one that runs P-Fire and a Bayou main to splash for discard and Abrupt Decays).

List please?

[filln]

List please?

I think Patrick is referring to the list in here (fourth one): http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-constructed-league-2016-03-18

[Adamovic]

I'm heading to a largish tournament tomorrow and will be trying out something similar to the Daryl Ayers list linked to above.
The main deck will be a little different as I'm definitely packing four ports into to an unknown meta.
The sideboard I'll probably copy mostly as I like the thoughts behind it and not having to bring chalice is a great upgrade i believe as it's sometimes hampered me against combo. Setting it on one to not lose and then drawing only tutors for a few turns while they go of with zero and two casting cost spells is sickening.
So high hopes for thoughtseize!

Probably going to scrub out, but what the hey. Will post tournament report if it turns out to be interesting for anybody but myself.
Everyone have a great weekend!

Danish guy over and out.

[StefN]

@ Adamovic: You playing at the Eternal Clash tomorrow? ;) Me too ;D

I will try a DarkLands list with Decay and PunishingFire Main. Was extremely strong in the testing sessions. I will report if I make Top8.

Edit: I thinck the meta tomorrow will be very Miracle heavy thats why I want to play Decay main.


Main:

4 Exploration
3 Crop Rotation
4 Life from the Loam

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
4 Gamble

4 Mox Diamond

1 The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Dark Depths
4 Thespian Stage
3 Maze of Ith
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillow
2 Thranquil Thickets
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Forest


Sideboard:

3 Dark Confidant
1 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
2 Krosan Grip
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Dark Depths

[gigapatrick]

Hello all. Just wanted to give everyone a heads up on some (probably) disappointing news. I'm going to retire Building a Fortress indefinitely to work on some academic projects that are pretty important to me (publishing my book and getting a Ph.D.). Hope this doesn't dishearten too many people. Maybe I'll see some of you at a paper tournament sometime down the road. In any case, have a good one and keep Lands strong.

[filln]

Hello all. Just wanted to give everyone a heads up on some (probably) disappointing news. I'm going to retire Building a Fortress indefinitely to work on some academic projects that are pretty important to me (publishing my book and getting a Ph.D.). Hope this doesn't dishearten too many people. Maybe I'll see some of you at a paper tournament sometime down the road. In any case, have a good one and keep Lands strong.

Sad to hear, but completely understandable. Your videos were a huge help as a new Lands player and I've learned a lot from your videos. Thanks so much for all your hard work and best wishes on your academic projects!

[CovenantElite30]

Hello all. Just wanted to give everyone a heads up on some (probably) disappointing news. I'm going to retire Building a Fortress indefinitely to work on some academic projects that are pretty important to me (publishing my book and getting a Ph.D.). Hope this doesn't dishearten too many people. Maybe I'll see some of you at a paper tournament sometime down the road. In any case, have a good one and keep Lands strong.

Thank you for your video content. I found it very helpful being a new player.

Good luck on your book and ph.D.

[Chatto]

Hello all. Just wanted to give everyone a heads up on some (probably) disappointing news. I'm going to retire Building a Fortress indefinitely to work on some academic projects that are pretty important to me (publishing my book and getting a Ph.D.). Hope this doesn't dishearten too many people. Maybe I'll see some of you at a paper tournament sometime down the road. In any case, have a good one and keep Lands strong.

Out of curiousity: in which field are you getting a Ph.D.? And don't say indefinitely... You will always need some sort of stress-relief :smile:

[Adamovic]

@stefn: yep, eternal clash precisely. i agree that miracles will probably be out in force, so stay out of that draw bracket! I don't like abrupt main myself as I believe I takes to much away from game 1 percentages against other matchups, but I'm probably going to rue my choice tomorrow.

@gigapatrick: good luck with your real world goals. Keep fighting the good fight in paper then! Thanks for content, it's helped me as well.

[Rivfader]

Hello all. Just wanted to give everyone a heads up on some (probably) disappointing news. I'm going to retire Building a Fortress indefinitely to work on some academic projects that are pretty important to me (publishing my book and getting a Ph.D.). Hope this doesn't dishearten too many people. Maybe I'll see some of you at a paper tournament sometime down the road. In any case, have a good one and keep Lands strong.
You will be missed, but then again you'll probably keep posting here even without the leagues, you were one of the first to pick up this deck!

[gigapatrick]

Out of curiousity: in which field are you getting a Ph.D.? And don't say indefinitely... You will always need some sort of stress-relief :smile:

Literature Theory. Not a real lucrative field, but it's what I love.

[Djehuti]

Hello all. Just wanted to give everyone a heads up on some (probably) disappointing news. I'm going to retire Building a Fortress indefinitely to work on some academic projects that are pretty important to me (publishing my book and getting a Ph.D.). Hope this doesn't dishearten too many people. Maybe I'll see some of you at a paper tournament sometime down the road. In any case, have a good one and keep Lands strong.

Best wishes! Thanks for the content :)

[Dice_Box]

Don't worry Pat, the back log is more than enough to help new players. I thank you for that.

[Chatto]

Literature Theory. Not a real lucrative field, but it's what I love.

Very interesting! Let us know when you finish your book, and where we can order it :smile: I for one always like to read scientific research, so I would definately like to hear from you. And as a historian and musician I can confirm that having passions don't always mean making money... But doing what you love is priceless, so there! (That's why I have a nice job at an office :laugh: :frown:)

[fluuu]

Let's focus in lands please.

Went 7-0 yesterday.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Let's focus in lands please.

Went 7-0 yesterday.Well thanks for giving us so much to talk about.

[Dice_Box]

Come on guys, please don't make me mod this thread. This is the one place above all I don't want to.

[fluuu]

How do u guys beat show and tell?

[Dice_Box]

How do u guys beat show and tell?

Prime Time, Chalice (to stop them finding the combo) and Port. In Black, Thoughtseize.

[Chatto]

Never had a problem with SnT: fast combo and Karakas, together with manadenial. With a black splash TS and Duress should come in handy.

[barcode]

Sneak & Show: Pithing Needle, Chalice of the Void, Primeval Titan, Krosan Grip. Deny the mana and advance your plan.

Omniscience: Sphere of Resistance, Primeval Titan, Chalice of the Void, Krosan Grip. Denying mana is hard since they play so much dig. Try and kill quickly and be conscious about being wrecked by your own spheres.

[Goose]

Hello, lands has a new player. I've been playing aggro loam for a little while now and finally finished gathering all the cards I need for lands. The build I'm probably going to start off playing is the RG with all the black cards in the board that was linked a couple pages back piloted by Daryl. I've made the adjustments to include 4 Ports but I was wanting to try to get some feedback on an inclusion of Karakas somewhere in the 75. I get to play local about once a month and in the past two months I've played against Reanimator and Show & Tell once each. Would would opinions be on what to cut or is it even worth it?

[barcode]

Hello, lands has a new player. I've been playing aggro loam for a little while now and finally finished gathering all the cards I need for lands. The build I'm probably going to start off playing is the RG with all the black cards in the board that was linked a couple pages back piloted by Daryl. I've made the adjustments to include 4 Ports but I was wanting to try to get some feedback on an inclusion of Karakas somewhere in the 75. I get to play local about once a month and in the past two months I've played against Reanimator and Show & Tell once each. Would would opinions be on what to cut or is it even worth it?

You should have Karakas in your 75. What to cut? Don't play 4 Crop Rotation or 4 Dark Depths.

[filln]

Hello, lands has a new player. I've been playing aggro loam for a little while now and finally finished gathering all the cards I need for lands. The build I'm probably going to start off playing is the RG with all the black cards in the board that was linked a couple pages back piloted by Daryl. I've made the adjustments to include 4 Ports but I was wanting to try to get some feedback on an inclusion of Karakas somewhere in the 75. I get to play local about once a month and in the past two months I've played against Reanimator and Show & Tell once each. Would would opinions be on what to cut or is it even worth it?

Karakas also nice in the mirror too, if your meta has other Lands players.

[Philipp2293]

Karakas is not bad to have in the mirror, but nothing your oponent can't play around.

Took down a local tournament qualifier for a mixed format 16 player invitational at the end of the year with a Dark Lands list with Punishing Fire, basically this list with the following modifications:

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=20117&iddeck=153330

MD -1 Karakas + 1 Crop Rotation
SB - 1 Tireless Tracker - 2 Sphere of Resistance + 1 Karakas + 1 Dark Depths + 1 Krosan Grip

My rounds were:

4C Delver (2-1)
Elves (2-0)
UR Omnishow (2-0)
Jund (ID)
Miracles (great player, wanted to play it out for standings) (1-0)

T8: BUG Delver (2-0)
T4: Elves (2-0)
Finals: Conceede by the miracles player, since he is already qualified anyway.

MVP was definitely Dark Confidant. Brought him in in every matchup and caught at least my Delver oponents with it. The Miracles game I only won because of being on the Dark Lands list. A timely Decay allowed my to take out his CB and resolve one more Loam and an Exploration, which gave me the ressources to Port his white sources and make a Token eot a few turns afterwards. Most annoying card I faced was Pithing Needle (out of Elves and Delver), but being on Dark Lands was fine also in this regard. I could theoretically run back this list today, but I'm considering running another deck, since there were a lot of not so great MUs represented (multiple Burn, Enchantress and Omnishow decks).

[barcode]

I played the white splash at a 1k today to test it out. Some highlights:


Chalice into Gaddock Teeg was great vs Storm
I killed UR Delver with Punishing Fire under Glacial Chasm lock at 1 life when he had bolt in hand. There were 3 cards left in my deck.
Got the Chalice for 1 in play vs Miracles, but had my Teeg blind countered by Counterbalance with Wear//Tear. Lost with Thrun in my hand because I drew no lands.


Knight of the Reliquary was merely okay this outing since it only came up in the Storm matchup and really was just another attacker when he was locked out (with chalice 0 and teeg) at 2 from his Bob.

I lost to Death & Taxes while I failed to have any acceleration in game 3. I lost to Miracles (see above) and to Landstill having drew 0 sideboard cards.

Today wasn't my day. I felt crummy all day and had 2 GRVs, including shuffling my graveyard into my library during a fetch. I was on feature match twice, which was interesting.

All in all, a fun day finishing 3-3. The only reason I went out was to try and trade up my UL Mox Pearl for a Beta one but the store guy didn't show up so it was a bust. I will continue to test out the white cards and might try more creatures, maybe go back to a Rabblemaster.

[barcode]

So I found myself on camera. Game 1, they miss that I'm dead if a Chasm ever goes away because Hugo reveals a Lightning Bolt while I'm at 1 (graphics said 3 but that's a mistake on their side).

https://www.twitch.tv/facetofacegames/v/62571150?t=55m55s

I misplayed in game 1: I should have rotated for the last Stage but I wanted more mana so I got the Riftstone Portal.

I got wrecked in game 2 (mulligan to 4) and then got there in turns for game 3 misplaying along the way (should have rotated the forest).

[hyp3r1on]

I've said it to barcode and I'll say it again...

Nothing warms my heart quite like seeing brainless aggro decks that dont play wasteland get a good old fashioned Glacial Chasm locking : )

[Chatto]

So I found myself on camera. Game 1, they miss that I'm dead if a Chasm ever goes away because Hugo reveals a Lightning Bolt while I'm at 1 (graphics said 3 but that's a mistake on their side).

https://www.twitch.tv/facetofacegames/v/62571150?t=55m55s

I misplayed in game 1: I should have rotated for the last Stage but I wanted more mana so I got the Riftstone Portal.

I got wrecked in game 2 (mulligan to 4) and then got there in turns for game 3 misplaying along the way (should have rotated the forest).

Could you post your deck? How were the SoR for you? Still as awesome as always? G3 he was tapped out, right? Rotating your Forest, while still being good, wasn't neccesary.

So much awesome cards to play and so much untested, good to see you rocking the white splash!

[barcode]

Could you post your deck? How were the SoR for you? Still as awesome as always? G3 he was tapped out, right? Rotating your Forest, while still being good, wasn't neccesary.

So much awesome cards to play and so much untested, good to see you rocking the white splash!

Maindeck is something like:

4 Exploration
4 Fetches
4 Loam
4 Port
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
1 Forest
3 Depths
3 Crop Rotation
4 Stage
4 Mox Diamonds
4 Grove
3 Punishing Fire
1 Tabernacle
1 Karakas
1 Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Riftstone Portal
2 Maze
4 Gamble
4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy


Sideboard

2 Primeval Titan
1 Thrun
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Chalice of the Void
3 Sphere of Resistance
4 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Did Thrun ever hit the battlefield? He always seems like he doesn't really fit no matter what deck he is in and with all your other dudes I could see him being a bit redundant.

On the other hand I love gaddock teeg when splashing white in RUGx or playing Aggro Loam. Chalice into that guy is a big problem for a lot of decks.

[barcode]

Did Thrun ever hit the battlefield? He always seems like he doesn't really fit no matter what deck he is in and with all your other dudes I could see him being a bit redundant.

On the other hand I love gaddock teeg when splashing white in RUGx or playing Aggro Loam. Chalice into that guy is a big problem for a lot of decks.

Thrun is in there to deal with Miracles. He never resolved (I never drew land #3 and my opponent blind flipped Wear//Tear to counter Teeg after Chalice for 1 resolved). I need to test him more.

[CovenantElite30]

Did anyone get a chance to see David's Long updated lands list?

He won a tournament on Saturday that SnapCasters were streaming.

Apparently he was talking about how he found a good build with Grove and Decay in the main.

I haven't been able to find the list, if anyone finds it could you post it here.

If David is on this forum could you posted your list here? Thank you.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Thrun is in there to deal with Miracles. He never resolved (I never drew land #3 and my opponent blind flipped Wear//Tear to counter Teeg after Chalice for 1 resolved). I need to test him more.Yeah I figured it was targeting miracles. I've only played him in nic fit way back and that's a matchup where they don't usually board out terminus so it's a bit different but he still won some games there along with thragtusk.

[barcode]

So there's some wacky ideas for hard to interact with creature win conditions:

Dragonlord Dromoka (white splash)
Akroma, Angel of Fury (this is tough to cast with RRR)
Gaea's Revenge
Great Sable Stag

They're worth looking at, I imagine Gaea's Revenge is probably the best of the bunch.

[Rivfader]

Did anyone get a chance to see David's Long updated lands list?

He won a tournament on Saturday that SnapCasters were streaming.

Apparently he was talking about how he found a good build with Grove and Decay in the main.

I haven't been able to find the list, if anyone finds it could you post it here.

If David is on this forum could you posted your list here? Thank you.

I searched for Snapcasters on Twitch and found the tourney you mentioned: https://www.twitch.tv/snapcasters/v/62340643. It seems he's back on Punishing Fire indeed. There are probably more vids of this tourney, but only watched this one. Didn't saw him talk about his list though (nor saw the list itself).

[CptHaddock]

I searched for Snapcasters on Twitch and found the tourney you mentioned: https://www.twitch.tv/snapcasters/v/62340643. It seems he's back on Punishing Fire indeed. There are probably more vids of this tourney, but only watched this one. Didn't saw him talk about his list though (nor saw the list itself).

At the end of the tournament he talks a little about the changes that he made. I'll find the exact time later, but for the most part he got rid of the molten vortexes and discard and is back on punishing fire and spheres.


edit: found it (https://www.twitch.tv/snapcasters/v/62422553?t=04m58s)

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Haha, picked a random spot in the video to try and find something and found this beautiful play.

https://www.twitch.tv/snapcasters/v/62340643?t=6h34m

EDIT: Looks like the stream ends in the last match so if he was talking about it after that it may not have been recorded.

[CovenantElite30]

At the end of the tournament he talks a little about the changes that he made. I'll find the exact time later, but for the most part he got rid of the molten vortexes and discard and is back on punishing fire and spheres.


edit: found it (https://www.twitch.tv/snapcasters/v/62422553?t=04m58s)
Thanks for finding the video.

Dumb question for the forum, is 3 maze of ith the required standard? I feel like 3 is too much?

[barcode]

Thanks for finding the video.

Dumb question for the forum, is 3 maze of ith the required standard? I feel like 3 is too much?

In a death and taxes heavy meta I'd want 3.

[Rivfader]

At the end of the tournament he talks a little about the changes that he made. I'll find the exact time later, but for the most part he got rid of the molten vortexes and discard and is back on punishing fire and spheres.


edit: found it (https://www.twitch.tv/snapcasters/v/62422553?t=04m58s)

Thanks for the exact link, here he talks about the sideboard, which consists of
3 Confidants
4 Spheres
2 Thorns
1 Chalice
2 KGrips
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Karakas
1 Depths
And he cut a taiga, fetch and Thicket for the 3 Groves in the main.

[Chatto]

Thanks for the exact link, here he talks about the sideboard, which consists of
3 Confidants
4 Spheres
2 Thorns
1 Chalice
2 KGrips
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Karakas
1 Depths
And he cut a taiga, fetch and Thicket for the 3 Groves in the main.

Mr. Long is on maindeck AD, and no discard, correct?

Right now I'm trying the straight RG-build, with AD and discard in the SB. I was thinking about dropping Bob in favor of SoR (along 4 TS and 1 Duress), basically the opposite of this SB.

[Rivfader]

Mr. Long is on maindeck AD, and no discard, correct?

Right now I'm trying the straight RG-build, with AD and discard in the SB. I was thinking about dropping Bob in favor of SoR (along 4 TS and 1 Duress), basically the opposite of this SB.

We ran Lands so long without alternate cardadvantage, so I think you definitely can brew without Bob.

And yes, it seems there's no discard anymore in David Long's build. Having black for firstturn discard is very taxing for the manabase indeed. But his current build only differs in 1 less black source in comparison to his previous build. So, for example, swapping the one-off thicket for an additional bayou would balance it out again (alas, at the cost of some utility).
I like the discard very much, as the spheres are only really good versus Storm, and it seems that deck got hit hard by Eldrazi. So I'd prefer the flex of discard to handle other combo (or any other non-creature-based-strategy where you don't need all Pfire or maze).

[Emrakul503]

Does David ever posts his lists or tournament reports anywhere?

[Jaytron]

Hi all,

I'm super new to the deck. I started playtesting with Dark Lands in an effort to learn how to really stop the deck. That being said, the power of the deck has been sucking me in. :tongue: For a newer player to the deck, is the basic RG Lands build better, or is Dark Lands fine?

Anther question: Most high level magic players mention Lands as one of, if not the, most powerful deck in legacy. If that's the case, why does it seem to miss out on DTB often? Is it just the cost of the deck that keeps it back? Tabernacle on paper, Ports in modo?

[Chatto]

Does David ever posts his lists or tournament reports anywhere?

In the past, he has put a report up here, but other than that...


Hi all,

I'm super new to the deck. I started playtesting with Dark Lands in an effort to learn how to really stop the deck. That being said, the power of the deck has been sucking me in. :tongue: For a newer player to the deck, is the basic RG Lands build better, or is Dark Lands fine?

Anther question: Most high level magic players mention Lands as one of, if not the, most powerful deck in legacy. If that's the case, why does it seem to miss out on DTB often? Is it just the cost of the deck that keeps it back? Tabernacle on paper, Ports in modo?

Prices are high, and perhaps the biggest issue. I think that the black splash gives you more outs, and makes you more proactive (due AD, and discard). You probably trade in some explosiveness, but I like it so far. Not sure what build is best, both have their merits.

[Rivfader]

For a newer player to the deck, is the basic RG Lands build better, or is Dark Lands fine?
Anther question: Most high level magic players mention Lands as one of, if not the, most powerful deck in legacy. If that's the case, why does it seem to miss out on DTB often?



Prices are high, and perhaps the biggest issue. I think that the black splash gives you more out, and makes you more proactive (due discard). You probably trade in some explosiveness, but I like it so far. Not sure what build is best, both have their merits.

I see Abrupt Decay (which is preboard the difference between both) as a maindecked Krosan Grip (while it's still usable vs creatures). Dark Lands will be better against almost all matchups where you would postboard bring in Kgrips, matchups with gamedeterminating artifacts and enchantments. That's Miracles and Chalicedecks on top of my list.
But there's less overall synergy (no manabonds, Decays do not recur from the yard), making Dark Lands less explosive, which makes it a bit worse against the rest of the field.
As for why it isn't a DTB, I think it's price in combination with cards being not very transferrable to other decks. No blueshell fetches or duals, and Tabernacle isn't played in any other Tierdeck. And there is also a big gap in playstyle between other nonblue decks and this, as it's about the only prison-like tierstrategy left in Legacy.

[gigapatrick]

Just watched Long's interview about his new list. Have to say I do not get it. Discard seems like the absolute best thing about the black splash, and without it I definitely don't think Abrupt Decay is worth it.

[Rivfader]

Just watched Long's interview about his new list. Have to say I do not get it. Discard seems like the absolute best thing about the black splash, and without it I definitely don't think Abrupt Decay is worth it.

Maindeck Abrupt Decay also frees up slots in the 75 (in comparison to the 4 slots devoted to Krosan Grip in stock RG). In contrast, both Punishing Fire and Discard are demanding in slots, because the first demands Groves and the second sufficient black.
So if you want both Pfire and discard, you have to reconcile 3 Groves and 8 black lands (personally I even feel 9 is more appropriate) in the 75, and you have to cut down other utilitylands.

I am fan of discard, and have been experimenting with no spheres, 8x discard. But I did have to cut down a thicket and a maze for sufficient black...

[filln]

Haha, picked a random spot in the video to try and find something and found this beautiful play.

https://www.twitch.tv/snapcasters/v/62340643?t=6h34m

EDIT: Looks like the stream ends in the last match so if he was talking about it after that it may not have been recorded.

Wow. For those who haven't, watch the entirety of Game 2 against Sneak and Show. Long (on the draw) comes back from a Turn 1 Griselbrand that draws his opponent over half the deck: https://www.twitch.tv/snapcasters/v/62340643?t=6h23m

[CovenantElite30]

Side note and maybe this isn't the correct place to ask.

I'm in the process of "pimping" out my lands deck.

Could you guys post images of your "pimped" out lands deck?

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I know there have been a few gorgeous RUG decks posted in the pimp thread in the last couple of months. I was getting ready to try and convert to beta duals for RG but the RGb build has interrupted my plans because I definitely should not try and buy beta bayous and I can't have mismatched lands. It's the worst thing about the Dark Lands build!

[zombie_sky_diver]

Just watched Long's interview about his new list. Have to say I do not get it. Discard seems like the absolute best thing about the black splash, and without it I definitely don't think Abrupt Decay is worth it.

I have to agree with you here, even IF Discard isn't worth while, adding Black for just Decay doesn't seem to make it any better then strait up GR. Yea, Black is also there for Bob, but you have Sylvan Library in green if you need card advantage.

Its sounds like Long's argument against the Discard was not that it isn't worthy; that he mainly pointed out its very Taxing if you are in need of a T1 Discard... and I can agree. We need to find a balance.


I have a question that may sound silly, and something I have not tried. For the players who run Chalice in the SB, have you considered bringing it in VS. Miracles.

I know that sounds stupid, but after watching gigapatrick's videos this week (4 Miracle MU's, good god) I thought that if, IF you can land it before they assemble they're CounterTop Lock you put them is a worse position then yourself. After all, if they have the Lock out your not casting anything CMC 1 anyway. At least if you have a Chalice on 1 not only do you KO half their deck but stop their Swords.

Any thought on that? I plan to try it next I get to play. It would also make the SB Chalice more useful outside of the Storm MU.

[Djehuti]

I have to agree with you here, even IF Discard isn't worth while, adding Black for just Decay doesn't seem to make it any better then strait up GR. Yea, Black is also there for Bob, but you have Sylvan Library in green if you need card advantage.

Its sounds like Long's argument against the Discard was not that it isn't worthy; that he mainly pointed out its very Taxing if you are in need of a T1 Discard... and I can agree. We need to find a balance.


I have a question that may sound silly, and something I have not tried. For the players who run Chalice in the SB, have you considered bringing it in VS. Miracles.

I know that sounds stupid, but after watching gigapatrick's videos this week (4 Miracle MU's, good god) I thought that if, IF you can land it before they assemble they're CounterTop Lock you put them is a worse position then yourself. After all, if they have the Lock out your not casting anything CMC 1 anyway. At least if you have a Chalice on 1 not only do you KO half their deck but stop their Swords.

Any thought on that? I plan to try it next I get to play. It would also make the SB Chalice more useful outside of the Storm MU.

Bring it in. I've played miracles against chalice and the card is crippling, especially if SDT hasn't been deployed yet. The only card selection/advantage that is still available after a chalice on 1 is Jace and Predict.

[djxstream]

Wow. For those who haven't, watch the entirety of Game 2 against Sneak and Show. Long (on the draw) comes back from a Turn 1 Griselbrand that draws his opponent over half the deck: https://www.twitch.tv/snapcasters/v/62340643?t=6h23m

i always liked the spheres over discard. that game just proved it.

[barcode]

i always liked the spheres over discard. that game just proved it.

Assuming we play literally infinite discard spells we won't be able to prevent them from topdecking cards of relevance. Modern Jund players can attest to this in the Scapeshift matchup.

Spheres and Thorns, on the other hand, mean they can never place those spells on the stack in the first place.

Sign me up for Team Sphere.

[Chatto]

Give me both! T1 discard, T2 Sphere, some manadenial... Living the dream :laugh:

[Rivfader]

i always liked the spheres over discard. that game just proved it.
This was a beautiful match too see. But lets be honest, hardly proof of how good sphere is in the S&T matchup, because David Long was very lucky here.


Assuming we play literally infinite discard spells we won't be able to prevent them from topdecking cards of relevance. Modern Jund players can attest to this in the Scapeshift matchup.

Spheres and Thorns, on the other hand, mean they can never place those spells on the stack in the first place.

Sign me up for Team Sphere.
Both Thoughtseize and Sphere are alike, they gain us time to combo first. And both cards will eventually loose the game if you don't pare it with a quick token. Both cards also have different qualities, which makes them better depending the matchup. Spheres are great as they stall sculpting, and tax stormcount. And they have great synergy with the maindeck manadenial.

But they are not very good against S&T. Because S&T needs less sculpting than others, due to running 8 fatties and 8 enablers, and because it runs mana acceleration in sollands and petals to cast a single gamewinning spell that only costs 3 or 4. Manascrewing S&T is way less efficient than it is to lock up Storm. And besides their combo, they have bloodmoon, up to 3 pieces these days, which is pretty much a 1-card-combo against us. And as al combodecks, they have some bouncespells that will take care of a quick token as well.

THat's why discard is so good here, as it's versatility can tackle many opposing gameplans, whereas spheres are all-in on the manadenial. As Chatto states, you can run them both, depending on your meta. Many Storm, go for spheres. But if it lacks Storm (which looks to be the case right now), I think you should try the discard as well.

[gigapatrick]

I have a question that may sound silly, and something I have not tried. For the players who run Chalice in the SB, have you considered bringing it in VS. Miracles.

I know that sounds stupid, but after watching gigapatrick's videos this week (4 Miracle MU's, good god) I thought that if, IF you can land it before they assemble they're CounterTop Lock you put them is a worse position then yourself. After all, if they have the Lock out your not casting anything CMC 1 anyway. At least if you have a Chalice on 1 not only do you KO half their deck but stop their Swords.

Any thought on that? I plan to try it next I get to play. It would also make the SB Chalice more useful outside of the Storm MU.

Definitely bring in Chalice against Miracles. No question about it. An option would be to also board out some number of one drops (specifically Manabond and Crop Rotation) to make Chalice more asymmetrical.

[barcode]

Definitely bring in Chalice against Miracles. No question about it. An option would be to also board out some number of one drops (specifically Manabond and Crop Rotation) to make Chalice more asymmetrical.

Yep. This specifically.

Chalice helps protect Marit Lage from Plow. It also stops Top and dig spells.

Of course, every Miracles player everywhere always seems to find their Wear//Tear(s) so do expect to get 2-for-1'd when they destroy an Exploration and Chalice. Try to kill them before that happens.

[gigapatrick]

Yep. This specifically.

Chalice helps protect Marit Lage from Plow. It also stops Top and dig spells.

Of course, every Miracles player everywhere always seems to find their Wear//Tear(s) so do expect to get 2-for-1'd when they destroy an Exploration and Chalice. Try to kill them before that happens.

Yeah, I'd say that Wear / Tear is the main reason that RG's sideboard plan against Miracles no longer seems that great to me. Before Miracles players caught on to the fact that Wear / Tear wrecks us, Chalice and Choke destroyed them--but now you get quonked every time.

[Kuma]

I've been playing the RGB version and I can't figure out where the Dark Confidants are good. When do they get boarded in and for what cards?

[fluuu]

Played yesterday the standard RGB version and i think i preffer the explosiveness of RG

[baboontilt]

That's my list. The Tracker was a last minute fun-of that I wanted to try out - if I were to keep a creature in that slot in the future it'd be the 4th Confidant or a Primeval Titan. What did you add over the 4th DD in the main?


Karakas is not bad to have in the mirror, but nothing your oponent can't play around.

Took down a local tournament qualifier for a mixed format 16 player invitational at the end of the year with a Dark Lands list with Punishing Fire, basically this list with the following modifications:

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=20117&iddeck=153330

MD -1 Karakas + 1 Crop Rotation
SB - 1 Tireless Tracker - 2 Sphere of Resistance + 1 Karakas + 1 Dark Depths + 1 Krosan Grip

My rounds were:

4C Delver (2-1)
Elves (2-0)
UR Omnishow (2-0)
Jund (ID)
Miracles (great player, wanted to play it out for standings) (1-0)

T8: BUG Delver (2-0)
T4: Elves (2-0)
Finals: Conceede by the miracles player, since he is already qualified anyway.

MVP was definitely Dark Confidant. Brought him in in every matchup and caught at least my Delver oponents with it. The Miracles game I only won because of being on the Dark Lands list. A timely Decay allowed my to take out his CB and resolve one more Loam and an Exploration, which gave me the ressources to Port his white sources and make a Token eot a few turns afterwards. Most annoying card I faced was Pithing Needle (out of Elves and Delver), but being on Dark Lands was fine also in this regard. I could theoretically run back this list today, but I'm considering running another deck, since there were a lot of not so great MUs represented (multiple Burn, Enchantress and Omnishow decks).

[CovenantElite30]

So I just got my butt kicked by d and t. I made a turn one token, yes a turn one. He had plow in hand. I then lost to a beat down with him having mom on board so even when I drew a removal it was pointless. Game 2 was just as bad, never got to make a token and he bet me down with creatures with mom backup. What exactly is the strategy in betting this deck? What are good sideboard cards and what should I take out?

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk

[Emrakul503]

I've been playing the RGB version and I can't figure out where the Dark Confidants are good. When do they get boarded in and for what cards?

Bob is really good when you are going to go for a longer game. Great against Miracles or other non combo blue decks, also Maverick (in my experience). Against Miracles, I usually take out Wastelands, maybe a gamble/loam/exploration and 1x Pfire. I've had bad experiences with counterbalance landing and me just drawing those.

[hyp3r1on]

So I just got my butt kicked by d and t. I made a turn one token, yes a turn one. He had plow in hand. I then lost to a beat down with him having mom on board so even when I drew a removal it was pointless. Game 2 was just as bad, never got to make a token and he bet me down with creatures with mom backup. What exactly is the strategy in betting this deck? What are good sideboard cards and what should I take out?

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk

Obviously, there's no real way you can mulligan a hand capable of doing a T1 Marit Lage but the matchup is all about board control. You should focus on locking the game up with Punishing Fire/Mazes/Tabernacle over aggressively going for the combo because DNT does and will have answers to the token. Once you have the game state locked up - winning is elementary. You should be boarding in Grips and don't be afraid of taking down a Vial with it especially when they're light on actual mana. Death and Taxes is a favourable matchup for Lands - you just need to establish your role as the control deck.

[Rivfader]

So I just got my butt kicked by d and t. I made a turn one token, yes a turn one. He had plow in hand. I then lost to a beat down with him having mom on board so even when I drew a removal it was pointless. Game 2 was just as bad, never got to make a token and he bet me down with creatures with mom backup. What exactly is the strategy in betting this deck? What are good sideboard cards and what should I take out?

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk

What you can do, is Pfire Mom in your opponent's turn. He'll tap it to protect itself, and then in your turn you can fire again.

[J0n]

Hey guys!

Just a short question regarding the RGB / Dark Lands list: In which MUs do you normally board the Dark Confidant and how do you use it? Would you also board it when you see that the opp boards out all his Swords to plowshares? Or is it just a back-up wincon?

Cheers;
Jon

[gigapatrick]

On Bob:

Typically speaking (though it seems counterintuitive), you probably want to board Bob in against white decks, since Rest in Peace is a beating. Of course, people aren't boarding out their Swords against us, so he's got a target on his head, but at least that's one less plow for Marit. I think boarding him in against combo decks is also feasible, since those are the matchups where you really want to draw nonland cards. Still, he does seem awful slow in those scenarios. You might also board him in against Deathrite decks, but not against tempo decks, so that really only means Shardless Bug.

On Death and Taxes:

Definitely second the notion that we are the control deck. The matchup is probably something like fifty-three to fifty-five percent in our favor, depending on each build--but they have so many tricks for a Marit that you absolutely have to just control the game with Punishing Fire. Of course, at that point, if you've got Fire going, you're a heavy favorite and your opponent should concede, but a lot of Death and Taxes players think their tricks will get them further than they actually can in that scenario. Draws you lose to will be turn one Mom, turn two Revoker on Mox or Thalia with Port and Waste back up. Not much you can do in those cases. You just get your ass kicked and it feels like it.

[CovenantElite30]

I saw a lands deck on camera today that had warping wail in the sideboard. What do you guys think playing 3 in the side?

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk

[Dice_Box]

Would rather use my mana to control Lands. If I have a port free I would rather use it then hold up two mana.

[Chatto]

Hey guys,

I made a playlist of RG Lands MU's (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUN_4sBR03zBc0Sd48GuBswf_OWulsOZK). It only contains paper MU's (SCG, Snap Casters, and Atomic Empire to name a few), and will be updated as time goes by.

Just another source for information.

EDI: I know it hasn't all MU available, and I need to sort them.

[barcode]

Hey guys,

I made a playlist of RG Lands MU's (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUN_4sBR03zBc0Sd48GuBswf_OWulsOZK). It only contains paper MU's (SCG, Snap Casters, and Atomic Empire to name a few), and will be updated as time goes by.

Just another source for information.

EDI: I know it hasn't all MU available, and I need to sort them.

Well done! This should be on the front page.

I'll see if I can get permission to upload my UR Delver matchup to YouTube for the playlist.

[J0n]

On Bob:

Typically speaking (though it seems counterintuitive), you probably want to board Bob in against white decks, since Rest in Peace is a beating. Of course, people aren't boarding out their Swords against us, so he's got a target on his head, but at least that's one less plow for Marit. I think boarding him in against combo decks is also feasible, since those are the matchups where you really want to draw nonland cards. Still, he does seem awful slow in those scenarios. You might also board him in against Deathrite decks, but not against tempo decks, so that really only means Shardless Bug.


Thanks for the explanation, Patrick!
What I still don't fully understand is why we dedicate three SB slots for a match-up which we will will anyway. I think that shardless BUG is one of our best MUs (as they can't really handle our token). I've never really lost against this deck and thought that Bob might be good against other decks as well. But if we don't board it against tempo, not against combo (=too slow) and only in a MU which we will win very likely anyway - what is it actually good for?

Thanks;
Jon

[gigapatrick]

Thanks for the explanation, Patrick!
What I still don't fully understand is why we dedicate three SB slots for a match-up which we will will anyway. I think that shardless BUG is one of our best MUs (as they can't really handle our token). I've never really lost against this deck and thought that Bob might be good against other decks as well. But if we don't board it against tempo, not against combo (=too slow) and only in a MU which we will win very likely anyway - what is it actually good for?

Thanks;
Jon

I've had the same misgivings about Dark Confidant as well. He's great when he's unanswered, but he's usually answered--and I can't think of too many matchups where we actually need him. Shardless Bug is definitely not a match where we need him--and the matches where we do (that is, white decks), he probably dies to Swords anyway.

[Chatto]

Well done! This should be on the front page.

I'll see if I can get permission to upload my UR Delver matchup to YouTube for the playlist.

Thanks and let me know! And if you find vids you like me to include, just let me know (that goes for everyone).

[barcode]

I've had the same misgivings about Dark Confidant as well. He's great when he's unanswered, but he's usually answered--and I can't think of too many matchups where we actually need him. Shardless Bug is definitely not a match where we need him--and the matches where we do (that is, white decks), he probably dies to Swords anyway.

I want Bob in matchups with severe graveyard disruption and decks without a way to easily answer it. This includes Storm! A quick clock that gives card advantage can sway the sideboard games.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

It sounds like I'm using Bob a lot more than other people are. I basically treat it as a sideboard package and will bring it against any deck that I suspect will bring land or graveyard disruption unless they are burn-heavy and then as barcode said I'll bring it in against combo and use it draw into additional spheres/discard while hopefully providing a little bit of pressure. Usually I'll shave unnecessary creature-control stuff and then possibly a crop rotation or gamble or two. I've personally felt pretty comfortable shaving a gamble for Bob which isn't something I used to ever side out so I'm curious how other people are bringing him in.

[barcode]

I've been thinking about sideboard for a while as people can tell from my recent posts about white cards and I've got transformational sideboards on the mind:

Painter:

2 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
3 Pyroblast
2 Goblin Welder

Creatures (RG):

4 Inferno Titan
4 Primeval Titan
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Cavern of Souls


And there's more, of course.

The point is to radically switch up the game plan. As our deck becomes more mainstream we should take care to keep our plans of attack fresh. Always keep them guessing. I have no idea if any of these are reasonable, I need to find time to test them.

[Lysandros]

I can't take the non stop surgical extraction parade that is going on on modo anymore. I've literally been surgicaled around 3/4 of post board games according to my records over the past three weeks. It's ridiculous. It's been fun Lands players.

[barcode]

I can't take the non stop surgical extraction parade that is going on on modo anymore. I've literally been surgicaled around 3/4 of post board games according to my records over the past three weeks. It's ridiculous. It's been fun Lands players.

Do you have a moment to talk about Primeval Titan?

[J0n]

It sounds like I'm using Bob a lot more than other people are. I basically treat it as a sideboard package and will bring it against any deck that I suspect will bring land or graveyard disruption unless they are burn-heavy and then as barcode said I'll bring it in against combo and use it draw into additional spheres/discard while hopefully providing a little bit of pressure. Usually I'll shave unnecessary creature-control stuff and then possibly a crop rotation or gamble or two. I've personally felt pretty comfortable shaving a gamble for Bob which isn't something I used to ever side out so I'm curious how other people are bringing him in.

Exactly... I tested Bob against Miracles today and think that's the first MU where he was really helpful. Against Combo I wish I had something like gaddock teeg in the 2-mana slot ;-)

[gigapatrick]

I can't take the non stop surgical extraction parade that is going on on modo anymore. I've literally been surgicaled around 3/4 of post board games according to my records over the past three weeks. It's ridiculous. It's been fun Lands players.

The online meta has felt a fair bit hostile to Lands recently. I thought it was because everybody always knew what I was on, but I guess other Lands players are having trouble as well. Kinda sucks. Prime Time and Bob are reasonable answers to Extraction, though, and I'd try them before quitting the deck.

[barcode]

The online meta has felt a fair bit hostile to Lands recently. I thought it was because everybody always knew what I was on, but I guess other Lands players are having trouble as well. Kinda sucks. Prime Time and Bob are reasonable answers to Extraction, though, and I'd try them before quitting the deck.

Increasingly hostile adaptations to Lands is why I've been considering wacky off the wall sideboard strategies.

[Chatto]

Personally, I think Prime-time is the best choice. It can get your combo-pieces, while being a solid threat on his own. Being very optimistic, is there a chance that the MODO-meta is different from the paper-meta?


I like the idea of an all-transformation SB as well, but will stay with the Black splash for now.

[CovenantElite30]

Personally, I think Prime-time is the best choice. It can get your combo-pieces, while being a solid threat on his own. Being very optimistic, is there a chance that the MODO-meta is different from the paper-meta?


I like the idea of an all-transformation SB as well, but will stay with the Black splash for now.

How many Prime-Times would you play in the sideboard?

My current sideboard is 3 Bobs, 3 Sphere of Resistance, 2 Choke, 1 Karakas, 1 Dark Depths, 2 Krosan Grip, 1 Ancient Grudge, 1 Chalice of the Void, 1 Zuran Orb.

Not sure what I would cut to get Prime-time in.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Personally, I think Prime-time is the best choice. It can get your combo-pieces, while being a solid threat on his own. Being very optimistic, is there a chance that the MODO-meta is different from the paper-meta?


I like the idea of an all-transformation SB as well, but will stay with the Black splash for now.The meta is fairly different and price plays a huge role so miracles (one of the cheapest legacy decks online) is everywhere while D&T and other Lands decks are essentially absent because port is more expensive than black lotus (for now...). I feel like I run into far fewer people playing pet decks than I do when playing in paper too.

[barcode]

Personally, I think Prime-time is the best choice. It can get your combo-pieces, while being a solid threat on his own. Being very optimistic, is there a chance that the MODO-meta is different from the paper-meta?


I like the idea of an all-transformation SB as well, but will stay with the Black splash for now.

I know this sounds odd coming from me but Primeval Titan isn't a panacea. Sometimes we never get to six mana. That's why it's important to consider all options.

[J0n]

That's my current sb:

4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Dark Confidant
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip
3 ThoughtSeize
1 Karakas
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Boseiju, who shelters all

(After realizing that the Bobs are primarily good against miracles, I replaced one of these slots with Boseiju)

[Chatto]

I know this sounds odd coming from me but Primeval Titan isn't a panacea. Sometimes we never get to six mana. That's why it's important to consider all options.

Blasphemy! :laugh:

I understand what you mean, but I like it when Primeval Titan comes down, and also nets me my combo-pieces. I like how it just immediately gives you value, whereas Bob must survive a turn. Granted, if Bob lives, he'll outvalue PT most of the time. Six cmc is indeed a bit harsh, though, but when we get there...

Other creatures to consider? I saw some names, but haven't tested them yet.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Tireless tracker was being thrown around a little bit ago and it doesn't seem like the worst idea to me when not running black.

[CovenantElite30]

I'm looking for a sideboarding guide for the "Dark Lands" variant.

Do you guys have any suggestions?

Thank you.

[filln]

Just bought a pair of Primeval Titans to test out. All aboard the Primetime Train! Choo choo!

[Emrakul503]

I've been thinking about sideboard for a while as people can tell from my recent posts about white cards and I've got transformational sideboards on the mind:

Painter:

2 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
3 Pyroblast
2 Goblin Welder

Creatures (RG):

4 Inferno Titan
4 Primeval Titan
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Cavern of Souls


And there's more, of course.

The point is to radically switch up the game plan. As our deck becomes more mainstream we should take care to keep our plans of attack fresh. Always keep them guessing. I have no idea if any of these are reasonable, I need to find time to test them.

I would be interested in hearing about how these pan out. I think the most important thing is finding a strategy that synergizes/doesn't cut off our primary game plan. The thought being that with Dredging, milling Painter pieces could be bad. But if we could like sneak an Academy Ruins in the deck, it may not be so bad. Or something along those lines. Maybe run a single Unburial Rites or something in the creature sb. I understand the idea is to be fighting against GY hate, but wanted to toss some ideas out there. I have been having some trouble lately, not so much with GY hate, but wouldn't mind heading it off.

[filln]

I would be interested in hearing about how these pan out. I think the most important thing is finding a strategy that synergizes/doesn't cut off our primary game plan. The thought being that with Dredging, milling Painter pieces could be bad. But if we could like sneak an Academy Ruins in the deck, it may not be so bad. Or something along those lines. Maybe run a single Unburial Rites or something in the creature sb. I understand the idea is to be fighting against GY hate, but wanted to toss some ideas out there. I have been having some trouble lately, not so much with GY hate, but wouldn't mind heading it off.

For grabbing creatures out of the graveyard maybe Volrath's Stronghold? It's super slow but it sort of works with the Loam dredge plan and it's recurrable. Would be so great if only it added black mana.

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

Would be so great if only it added black mana.

That card exists, it is called a Swamp =)

[Crimhead]

That card exists, it is called a Swamp =)Urborg, Tomb Of Yawgmoth.

[CovenantElite30]

So I played again last night went 3-1.

My overall record with the deck against burn is 0-3 and 2-6 in games. :-(

I currently play 1 chalice in the side and considering going up to 3.

What do you guys think?

I know it's a race but I seem to always be on the losing end of the race.

[Djehuti]

So I played again last night went 3-1.

My overall record with the deck against burn is 0-3 and 2-6 in games. :-(

I currently play 1 chalice in the side and considering going up to 3.

What do you guys think?

I know it's a race but I seem to always be on the losing end of the race.

I don't like chalice in this matchup since gamble and crop rotation have alot of value and i'd rather not turn them off. Plus the scariest spell is price of progress, and they'll bring in smash to smithereens for your chalices anyways. I've brought in spheres before and didn't feel strongly either way about it.

For a local meta where you're expecting burn, you could add 1x zuran orb in the sb (Hopefully it doesn't get smashed).
Its another line to gamble for if Fast witch or chasm loop aren't optimal.

Burn is a combo deck, you bring in extra depths if you have them to maximize the chances of an early kill.

Be careful about going into chasm lock, all it takes is one opening for burn to kill you at instant speed. you may not be able to exit the loop to swing with lage if your life total is too low so you need to keep some number of punishing fire in the deck to kill them with your chasm in play. Sulfuric vortex turns off grove, you'll need some number of enchantment destruction effects between Abrupt decay and Kgrip. Loaming will demolish your library so you need to close quickly with PF to avoid decking yourself. Speaking of decking: kill goblin guide on sight, even though chasm stops the damage the attack triggers add up and you'll have fewer turns to dredge to maintain chasm lock.

Mulligan aggressively and keep your fingers crossed that its good enough.
Other than that, there's not much else to say that Dice hasn't already said in the primer. Good Luck :wink:

Edit: all of your kgrips and AD should come in anyway. between eidolon, pyrostatic pillar, ensnaring bridge, pithing needle, and sulfuric vortex, there is no shortage of targets.

[CovenantElite30]

I don't like chalice in this matchup since gamble and crop rotation have alot of value and i'd rather not turn them off. Plus the scariest spell is price of progress, and they'll bring in smash to smithereens for your chalices anyways. I've brought in spheres before and didn't feel strongly either way about it.

For a local meta where you're expecting burn, you could add 1x zuran orb in the sb (Hopefully it doesn't get smashed).
Its another line to gamble for if Fast witch or chasm loop aren't optimal.

Burn is a combo deck, you bring in extra depths if you have them to maximize the chances of an early kill.

Be careful about going into chasm lock, all it takes is one opening for burn to kill you at instant speed. you may not be able to exit the loop to swing with lage if your life total is too low so you need to keep some number of punishing fire in the deck to kill them with your chasm in play. Sulfuric vortex turns off grove, you'll need some number of enchantment destruction effects between Abrupt decay and Kgrip. Loaming will demolish your library so you need to close quickly with PF to avoid decking yourself. Speaking of decking: kill goblin guide on sight, even though chasm stops the damage the attack triggers add up and you'll have fewer turns to dredge to maintain chasm lock.

Mulligan aggressively and keep your fingers crossed that its good enough.
Other than that, there's not much else to say that Dice hasn't already said in the primer. Good Luck :wink:

Edit: all of your kgrips and AD should come in anyway. between eidolon, pyrostatic pillar, ensnaring bridge, pithing needle, and sulfuric vortex, there is no shortage of targets.


Thanks for the advice!

My current sideboard is 3 Bobs, 2 Sphere of Resistance, 2 Choke, 2 Krosan Grip, 1 Prime Time, 1 Karakas, 1 Dark Depths, 1 Ancient Grudge, 1 Chalice of the Void, 1 Zuran Orb.

Against burn I brought in 3 Bobs, 2 Grip, 1 Depths, 1 Grudge, 1 Chalice, 1 Orb.

Maybe that is not the correct sideboard plan?

[Admiral Nobeard]

A couple of questions: I finally have time to play again and I see that people are adding black to the mix; does this open the viability of playing Cabal Pit? Also, how many Bobs is best to run, and would it be a good idea to run them mainboard, liek 4C Loam does?

[Layalouhamesh]

I personally went 3-0 against three burns in a recent tournament I attended. I had 4 chalices sb, and casting it on turn 1 brought me a free victory! (I think 4 is too much however)

To my mind, apart from chalice, there are two plans that can lead to victory agians burn:
1°) Uber-fast Marit Lage.
2°) Assemble a chasm lock, and kill it with recurring punishing fires so that you never break the lock to attack with Marit Lage.

In any case, remember that making a token will prevent you from taking 4 damage in case of a PoP

[barcode]

A couple of questions: I finally have time to play again and I see that people are adding black to the mix; does this open the viability of playing Cabal Pit? Also, how many Bobs is best to run, and would it be a good idea to run them mainboard, liek 4C Loam does?

Before Lands players remembered that Punishing Fire existed we used Cabal Pit. Punishing Fire is more versatile.

[Admiral Nobeard]

Before Lands players remembered that Punishing Fire existed we used Cabal Pit. Punishing Fire is more versatile.

But why do the Jund Lands run Molten Vortex over P-Fire? Every match I'm seeing now with black is using the enchantment instead of the Fire. Is it because it comes down earlier and is a permanent instead of an instant?

[filln]

But why do the Jund Lands run Molten Vortex over P-Fire? Every match I'm seeing now with black is using the enchantment instead of the Fire. Is it because it comes down earlier and is a permanent instead of an instant?

Has some benefits over P-Fire, besides the ones you mentioned it's also slightly less graveyard dependent, less clunky to recur, and perhaps more importantly allows you to cut Grove of the Burnwillows to free up space. That being said, some players have already gone back to the Grove/P-Fire combo even in the black splash builds.

[Djehuti]

Thanks for the advice!

My current sideboard is 3 Bobs, 2 Sphere of Resistance, 2 Choke, 2 Krosan Grip, 1 Prime Time, 1 Karakas, 1 Dark Depths, 1 Ancient Grudge, 1 Chalice of the Void, 1 Zuran Orb.

Against burn I brought in 3 Bobs, 2 Grip, 1 Depths, 1 Grudge, 1 Chalice, 1 Orb.

Maybe that is not the correct sideboard plan?

Grip, Depths, and orb are solid.
Chalice is a wash for me, feel free to keep it in if you like it.
Without knowing an opponent's sideboard plan, you can keep ancient grudge out game 2. If you see artifacts that need to be answered and still win G2, you can bring it in G3.
Bob is weird since he makes you lose life but he can eat an attack or a removal spell. I'd also opt not to play him because the black color requirement may force you to fetch a bayou instead of basic forest which could be the 2 damage from price of progress that kills you.

[Admiral Nobeard]

Has some benefits over P-Fire, besides the ones you mentioned it's also slightly less graveyard dependent, less clunky to recur, and perhaps more importantly allows you to cut Grove of the Burnwillows to free up space. That being said, some players have already gone back to the Grove/P-Fire combo even in the black splash builds.

Why did they go back? And would running both be an option to possibly cut down on the hate of both? Or would it reduce the chances of getting either combo online?

[Dice_Box]

I went back. In short I run a single Bayou main and have access to Black in the side. I feel like if your going to run Black, that's the way to do it.

My side right now is:
3 Decay
2 Grip
2 Dark Confident
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sphere of Resistance

I find its decent, sadly I have no space for Karakas. That of late has not been an issue locally.

[Guardian Beast]

I recently went X-2 at scg mke. I played stock rg main deck list. Karakas main, bog main. No Urborg, no rift stone portal. Never missed the cards. Deck felt pretty good. One of my losses involved getting turn one comboed, and then mulling into oblivion. The other involved not finding a mana source over 4 turns with diamond in hand.

I sb'd:
4 cotv (amazing)
3 sphere of resistence (ok)
1 molten vortex (good)
3 Krosan grip (amazing, wouldn't play less)
2 Pithing needle (good, wouldn't cut it)
2 warping wail (basically just another removal spell, high hopes but not thrilled with it)

I wouldn't really consider replacing p fire with vortex, simply because fow and daze are real cards, and p fire doesn't care about them. I would consider playing a second vortext in the sb though.

I'm all about the 4 cotv sb. If you don't play it turn one against storm ur dead or it's getting duressed. 2 balls help buy you time against storm, but you need something else going on. Against burn the cotv comes in, but it often gets smashed to smithereens. They also have a variety of casting costs honestly. I just like to try and close that match out asap.

I've played al lt of miracles for years personally, and relied on that experience to snake out a win in that match up. Needle is great there if you wanted more I'd sb some chokes or more needles. Awkward I know.


Everyone probably already knows this who posts here regularly. But the most important skill for playing the deck is knowing when to stop dredging Loam and just draw off the top.

Was looking at black lists, and I'm just not sold yet.

[Chatto]

I went back. In short I run a single Bayou main and have access to Black in the side. I feel like if your going to run Black, that's the way to do it.

My side right now is:
3 Decay
2 Grip
2 Dark Confident
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sphere of Resistance

I find its decent, sadly I have no space for Karakas. That of late has not been an issue locally.

What does your manabase look like? I don't feel comfortable without Karakas in the SB.


I recently went X-2 at scg mke. I played stock rg main deck list. Karakas main, bog main. No Urborg, no rift stone portal. Never missed the cards. Deck felt pretty good. One of my losses involved getting turn one comboed, and then mulling into oblivion. The other involved not finding a mana source over 4 turns with diamond in hand.

(...)

Everyone probably already knows this who posts here regularly. But the most important skill for playing the deck is knowing when to stop dredging Loam and just draw off the top.

Hi GB, and welcome! Congrats on your result. I highlighted your remark, because it is rarely brought up, and yet is indeed an important aspect of playing this deck.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

What does your manabase look like? I don't feel comfortable without Karakas in the SB.


What are you bouncing with Karakas honestly? Most legendary creatures you could bounce either die to punishing fire (Thalia, Clique, Venser) or the damage is already done (again Clique but Griselbrand as well), if you're expecting reanimator, it's alright, but Tidespout Tyrant is still the problem in that MU (and Bog is generally better anyways).

[Chatto]

What are you bouncing with Karakas honestly? Most legendary creatures you could bounce either die to punishing fire (Thalia, Clique, Venser) or the damage is already done (again Clique but Griselbrand as well), if you're expecting reanimator, it's alright, but Tidespout Tyrant is still the problem in that MU (and Bog is generally better anyways).

Well, it has won me MU's by doing exactly what you describe. I know it is not as good as it used to be, and maybe I should drop it. Call me old-fashioned, because I know I am :smile:

I've been tinkering on several Black Splash-builds, with one Bayou main. Still, I feel like I want a second Bayou, but I have come to the conclusion that it would mean diluting the manabase too much. Perhaps Karakas should make room for a Bayou in the SB.

[fluuu]

Can someone post The standard rgb list?

[Dice_Box]

When we have one, I will. Right now there is no hard and fast list.

Will post my 60 when I am free.

[barcode]

Many pages ago I posted a list of legendary creatures we want to bounce game 1. The opportunity cost is minimal. Slow down, take your time. You don't need 4 Dark Depths or 4 Crop Rotations.

[Chatto]

Why did they go back? And would running both be an option to possibly cut down on the hate of both? Or would it reduce the chances of getting either combo online?

I never felt comfortable with Vortex, so I 'went back' to PuFi. I laugh in the face of counters.


Many pages ago I posted a list of legendary creatures we want to bounce game 1. The opportunity cost is minimal. Slow down, take your time. You don't need 4 Dark Depths or 4 Crop Rotations.

I think we actually need four CR. It can get us the utility land we need, including Karakas. Four DD would be nice, but isn't that necessary, I agree, especially when we are packing four CR.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Many pages ago I posted a list of legendary creatures we want to bounce game 1. The opportunity cost is minimal. Slow down, take your time. You don't need 4 Dark Depths or 4 Crop Rotations.

Lets examine that list for a moment


Karakas bounces:


Thalia
Merit Lage
Vendilion Clique
Griselbrand
Emrakul
Mangara
Venser
...and so on...


It's such a low investment. The return on the fourth Dark Depths is much lower than the return on the first Karakas.

In the case of Thalia, Venser and Vendilion Clique, your answer to all 3 is simply killing them with punishing fire, Two of these are value creatures with flash that your opponent actually wants you to bounce (In the case of Clique, I would argue bouncing it would be a horribly bad idea for the Lands player), and Thalia is usually accompanied by AEther Vial (effectively giving her flash). Mangara is basically not played anymore, and even so, the combo for it is so slow and resource intensive that it should be a non-factor in any game you play against D&T, it's likely fair to say that games with Mangara being relevant, are games that you are not going to win. With Griselbrand, Karakas bouncing it is not enough, the damage has been done, they've drawn 7 cards. It should be nothing for them to find and put into play their Karakas answer at that point.

With Emrakul and Marit Lage, Karakas is a fine answer there, but with Sneak//Show being such a small part of the meta now, I doubt we're seeing too many Emrakuls now, and how often do you reasonably expect to see the mirror? Going by MTG Goldfish and the numbers used in the DTB forum, it's pretty reasonable to expect to see it once in a tournament, but in my experience, the mirror is mostly about getting the Loam engine going and building a bigger board presence (and it's easily answered with port and wasteland as well)

Given Crop Rotation is your best card for finding any one-ofs immediately, which you would need to do in the MUs where you actually want to Karakas bounce something, why would you cut it, it would stand to reason that Karakas gets worse with fewer crop rotations.

[Chatto]

Aah, but SnT is still a deck played in my meta, and the mirror isn't uncommon as well, perhaps packing Karakas is a meta-call? Still, in an unknown meta I would pack Karakas.

[Emrakul503]

Can someone post The standard rgb list?

What Dice_Box said about no standard list, but here is the one I play:

1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Rishadan Port
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Crop Rotation
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
4 Exploration
4 Mox Diamond

SIDEBOARD
3 Dark Confidant
1 Dark Depths
1 Duress
1 Karakas
2 Krosan Grip
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Thoughtseize
1 Zuran Orb

The Thorns will be Spheres someday, and the Duress may become a 3rd Thorn/Sphere soon. I do like the idea of PrimeTime, and for the sake of additional data, may test with him soon. I played Vortex for a bit, but was dredging them so often that I made the switch back and have not regretted it. I think there are merits to both, but unlessI had a Vortex in my opening hand, I never ended up playing with it. Where as PFire shows up when it is useful all of the time. If I went back to RG, I would consider a split of some kind.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Still, in an unknown meta I would pack Karakas.

In an unknown meta, I'd want the leanest main deck possible. If any of my individual opponents are just as likely to tendrils me, Counterbalance lock me out, Delver me or play an AEther Vial, I'd want to be trying to make the 20/20 as quickly as possible. They can't kill you if they're dead.

[filln]

What Dice_Box said about no standard list, but here is the one I play:

1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Rishadan Port
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Crop Rotation
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
4 Exploration
4 Mox Diamond

SIDEBOARD
3 Dark Confidant
1 Dark Depths
1 Duress
1 Karakas
2 Krosan Grip
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Thoughtseize
1 Zuran Orb

The Thorns will be Spheres someday, and the Duress may become a 3rd Thorn/Sphere soon. I do like the idea of PrimeTime, and for the sake of additional data, may test with him soon. I played Vortex for a bit, but was dredging them so often that I made the switch back and have not regretted it. I think there are merits to both, but unlessI had a Vortex in my opening hand, I never ended up playing with it. Where as PFire shows up when it is useful all of the time. If I went back to RG, I would consider a split of some kind.

My list isn't too far off, biggest difference in the main is +1 Bayou, +1 Crop Rotation, -1 Urborg, -1 Tranquil Thicket. Can I ask your thoughts on playing Urborg vs. a second Bayou? I've wanted to test Urborg for a while but haven't gotten around to it.

[Guardian Beast]

For reference this was my main deck. Nothing special or unique.

Rg lands
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
4 Rishadan Port
3 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
1 Manabond
4 Mox Diamond
3 Punishing Fire

[Emrakul503]

My list isn't too far off, biggest difference in the main is +1 Bayou, +1 Crop Rotation, -1 Urborg, -1 Tranquil Thicket. Can I ask your thoughts on playing Urborg vs. a second Bayou? I've wanted to test Urborg for a while but haven't gotten around to it.

I really like the the idea of having Maze of Ith, Dark Depths or Tabernacle tapping for mana at some point if I needed it. Being able to tap DD, Urborg and Stage to and Pfire or whatever has been relevant for me. I have never tutored for Urborg, but every time I have had it in my opening hand, it has been great.

[Chatto]

In an unknown meta, I'd want the leanest main deck possible. If any of my individual opponents are just as likely to tendrils me, Counterbalance lock me out, Delver me or play an AEther Vial, I'd want to be trying to make the 20/20 as quickly as possible. They can't kill you if they're dead.

All true words, let's just agree to disagree. I'm not saying I will cling on Karakas forever, but it has served me well.

[Dice_Box]

What does your manabase look like? I don't feel comfortable without Karakas in the SB.
Full list as it is in front of me.

4 Mox
4 Crop
4 Gamble
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
4 Punishing Fire
4 Loam

1 Forest
1 Bayou
2 Taiga
3 Fetch

1 Bog
1 Chasm
1 Tabernacle
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Maze of Ith
3 Depths
4 Stage
4 Grove
4 Port
4 Waste

Side:
3 Decay
2 Grip
2 Dark Confidant
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sphere of Resistance

In short, I do not have a ton of Black but I feel I have yet to have it be a major issue. I do not at this moment miss Chalice but at the same time, combo has somewhat vanished in my Local Meta and I am not often under large amounts of early pressure. If I was going into an event blind I would cut a Decay, add in a second Utility land (Karakas or Bog maybe) and I would cut the 2 Bonds. In place of the Bonds I would add a Fetch and free slot in which Bond, Decay, Depths or Urborg would occupy.

I am not sure this is better than the straight R/G build but I have not yet had any issues with it. I did beat to death an infect player with a Bob while firing his board clean. Bob is really good when you have an average CMC around .46

[chaosjace]

Not that my input is too valuable but I have never had an instance where Karakas did any good for me. My buddy plays SnT and reanimator and tinfins and i pretty much lose immediately or he Shows/sneaks griselbrand.

[Emrakul503]

Not that my input is too valuable but I have never had an instance where Karakas did any good for me. My buddy plays SnT and reanimator and tinfins and i pretty much lose immediately or he Shows/sneaks griselbrand.

All data is helpful, so thanks for contributing.

Edit: I am wrong and have nothing to contribute on the topic of Karakas :-p

[Dice_Box]

Most useful card in the mirror is Exploration/Manabond not Karakas.

[barcode]

Most useful card in the mirror is Exploration/Manabond not Karakas.

Anyone saying otherwise is trying to sell you something. Next most important is Forest and then Bojuka Bog.

[Crimhead]

Anyone saying otherwise is trying to sell you something. Next most important is Forest and then Bojuka Bog.
Followed by Ghost Quarter and Wasteland - not just to kill your opponent's green sources, but also to loop your Bog.

[barcode]

Full list as it is in front of me.

4 Mox
4 Crop
4 Gamble
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
4 Punishing Fire
4 Loam

1 Forest
1 Bayou
2 Taiga
3 Fetch

1 Bog
1 Chasm
1 Tabernacle
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Maze of Ith
3 Depths
4 Stage
4 Grove
4 Port
4 Waste

Side:
3 Decay
2 Grip
2 Dark Confidant
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sphere of Resistance

In short, I do not have a ton of Black but I feel I have yet to have it be a major issue. I do not at this moment miss Chalice but at the same time, combo has somewhat vanished in my Local Meta and I am not often under large amounts of early pressure. If I was going into an event blind I would cut a Decay, add in a second Utility land (Karakas or Bog maybe) and I would cut the 2 Bonds. In place of the Bonds I would add a Fetch and free slot in which Bond, Decay, Depths or Urborg would occupy.

I am not sure this is better than the straight R/G build but I have not yet had any issues with it. I did beat to death an infect player with a Bob while firing his board clean. Bob is really good when you have an average CMC around .46

I'm going to be testing the black splash (white is good, but losing game 1 to turn 1 top, turn 2 counterblance is not good). Your list is a good start! I will cut a Manabond for Karakas to have access to that card main deck. I'll also cut a Crop Rotation for the 4th fetch.

[Dice_Box]

I am not really sold on Karakas any more. I mean I will not go out and sell my copy, but I am not sure it really has a home in my deck any more. It might just be my local meta that has warped my views but I very rarely use it for much of anything. I have played against the mirror twice without it and not missed it either time. (Having main Bog really is what I depended on)

Karakas is the cleanup crew. My plan is to make sure there is no party. If the other guy can not party, I do not need to clean.

[Chatto]

What are the main-reasons for not playing Abrupt Decay main?

[Dice_Box]

It's unnecessary. Sure, it's useful, but I like to play a bit like Dredge. You play game one with your game plan as streamlined as you can make it, then game two, after you side out the Manabonds and what not, you can play a more hateful game.

I do like upping the sideboard slots dedicated to hating out Moon and other shit though. Since our own way to get one outside of a natural draw is to literally Gamble for it, having more to draw as the deck becomes a bigger target is handy. I am not sure a card with a double colour cost should be that card, not when we can't make one of those without a Moxen under a Moon, but I do think it's a start.

Also, Counterbalance can die in a fucking hole. Moon and Counterbalance. You know, just Miracles in general... As I type that, I like Decay just that little bit more.

[barcode]

It's unnecessary. Sure, it's useful, but I like to play a bit like Dredge. You play game one with your game plan as streamlined as you can make it, then game two, after you side out the Manabonds and what not, you can play a more hateful game.

I do like upping the sideboard slots dedicated to hating out Moon and other shit though. Since our own way to get one outside of a natural draw is to literally Gamble for it, having more to draw as the deck becomes a bigger target is handy. I am not sure a card with a double colour cost should be that card, not when we can't make one of those without a Moxen under a Moon, but I do think it's a start.

Also, Counterbalance can die in a fucking hole. Moon and Counterbalance. You know, just Miracles in general... As I type that, I like Decay just that little bit more.

I feel that most Miracles players know how to defeat Lands in a game 1 with the types of competitive hands they're likely to keep. Because of this I think Abrupt Decay (or K-Grip if that's your thing) is a requirement for maindeck. Sacrificing lands in the main deck hurts a lot but it's for the greater good. Plus, there's bonus splash wins for playing Abrupt Decay (X more answers to DRS and Delver, for instance!).

I understand about the streamlined game one but there's nothing saying we can't play a more patient game. I mean, look back since I've started posting in this thread! I've loudly claimed that 4 Depths and 4 Crop Rotation isn't needed if we're just patient. With X game one uncounterable answers to threats we have more of a controlling game.

P.S., Thrun is the business against Miracles.

[Emrakul503]

I will probably be testing without Karakas for a bit, as I do not use it super ofter. I like MB Decay because T1 Blood Moon/Chalice are not uncommon where I play. In a less known meta, I'd feel comfortable moving it to side.

[barcode]

The top 8 of Bazaar of Moxen (http://www.bazaar-of-moxen.com/en/urlrw,40.html?event=18&evt=18) is pretty hostile to lands.

1 Grixis Delver
1 Eldrazi
2 ANT
1 Belcher
1 Miracles
1 Elves (with Ruric Thar! Pack your Karakas!)
1 BUG Thing in the Ice brew

I don't know about you all but I only want to play against Grixis Delver and the random BUG deck.

Keep this in mind for GP Columbus as people will be looking to BoM for ideas even though it's the European metagame.

[gigapatrick]

On abrupt decay:

Just wanted to say that in my last set of videos i faced miracles four times and didn't win a single first game, even with abrupt decay maindeck. Straight rg still feels better to me. I've been running three pyroblast as part of my anti combo package and have really liked it. Good against Miracles too.

[barcode]

On abrupt decay:

Just wanted to say that in my last set of videos i faced miracles four times and didn't win a single first game, even with abrupt decay maindeck. Straight rg still feels better to me. I've been running three pyroblast as part of my anti combo package and have really liked it. Good against Miracles too.

What was the shortcoming(s) against Miracles game 1? In what way did Abrupt Decay fail to get there?

I played REB in the past, during Dig OmniTell era and it was reasonable. How is it these days?

[hyp3r1on]

About Pyroblasts - I think they were a fine sideboard option during the dark OmniTell era where Miracles and OmniTell were literally everywhere. Now, I wouldn't want to run them. They're pretty bad versus non-Miracles blue decks because most of the spells that Lands cares about are non-blue such as Deathrite, Surgical and various hate pieces like Blood Moon, Null Rod, Winter Orb, Needle etc. The issue with Pyroblasts against Miracles is they're super dead draws after a Counterbalance hits. With access to Green and Black I think there are much better hate cards and high impact cards against Miracles than Pyroblast - not to mention Pithing Needle, which I always like running.

Regarding Karakas - although I personally run it, in my opinion it's the most "cut-able" utility land from the 75. It's pretty weak versus Show and Tell/Reanimator and it really only helps out with keeping creatures like Thalia and Gaddock Teeg out of your face without investing more than a simple Karakas activation. Yeah you can Punishing Fire them too, but it wastes more of their time recasting/revialing them in hoping to slow you down. It's also helpful versus the "Lost Legends" of Legacy that randomly show up from time to time, like Tasigur, Ruric-Thar and Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. Overall though - I wouldn't go out of my way to run Karakas.

Lastly, about the "Belcher Resurgence". It's actually not that unfavourable matchup as most people would think. Yeah they can sometimes just Belcher you on T1 with you having no recourse but the way the deck is constructed you can easily Glacial Chasm lock out that deck and 50% of their hands are Empty Hands which can be dealt with easily with Tabernacle.

A friend of mine (who has access to essentially every competitive Legacy deck) was bragging to me how he just finished buying up the pieces for Belcher and how he would steamroll me on Lands. I debated that it was not as bad a matchup as he would believe so we made a dinner bet that I could win at least 5/10 complete best 2/3 matches. I won 6/10 by the end of the night and dinner was sweet : )

[CovenantElite30]

The top 8 of Bazaar of Moxen (http://www.bazaar-of-moxen.com/en/urlrw,40.html?event=18&evt=18) is pretty hostile to lands.

1 Grixis Delver
1 Eldrazi
2 ANT
1 Belcher
1 Miracles
1 Elves (with Ruric Thar! Pack your Karakas!)
1 BUG Thing in the Ice brew

I don't know about you all but I only want to play against Grixis Delver and the random BUG deck.

Keep this in mind for GP Columbus as people will be looking to BoM for ideas even though it's the European metagame.
I would say Lands is favored against Eldrazi but I guess I could be wrong. GP columbus will probably be a ton of Miracles and a ton of Eldrazi, I would expect ANT to be good in that's meta.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

The top 8 of Bazaar of Moxen (http://www.bazaar-of-moxen.com/en/urlrw,40.html?event=18&evt=18) is pretty hostile to lands.

1 Grixis Delver
1 Eldrazi
2 ANT
1 Belcher
1 Miracles
1 Elves (with Ruric Thar! Pack your Karakas!)
1 BUG Thing in the Ice brew

I don't know about you all but I only want to play against Grixis Delver and the random BUG deck.

Keep this in mind for GP Columbus as people will be looking to BoM for ideas even though it's the European metagame.

I wouldn't mind Elves but that matchup is fucking annoying. I'm also the masochist that enjoys playing the Miracles MU, it's usually pretty grindy and interesting post-board.

[Chatto]

The top 8 of Bazaar of Moxen (http://www.bazaar-of-moxen.com/en/urlrw,40.html?event=18&evt=18) is pretty hostile to lands.

1 Grixis Delver
1 Eldrazi
2 ANT
1 Belcher
1 Miracles
1 Elves (with Ruric Thar! Pack your Karakas!)
1 BUG Thing in the Ice brew

I don't know about you all but I only want to play against Grixis Delver and the random BUG deck.

Keep this in mind for GP Columbus as people will be looking to BoM for ideas even though it's the European metagame.

Well, I don't like ANT, and of course I like some fairer MU's, but it doesn't look like a complete shit-storm.

Oh, you guys saw who won? Absolutely insane!

EDIT: and to give you a hint: look at the picture, not at the results.

[gigapatrick]

To barcode:

Not saying that Abrupt Decay failed or anything. Just saying that having three maindeck isn't enough to give us a good game one against Miracles. We'd need four maindeck and good ways to get them into our hand.

To Hyp3rion:

It is true that Pyroblast isn't great if Counterbalance hits the field, but if it does, we've got K-Grip to make it live again. It is also true that REBs aren't great against non-blue combo decks like Belcher and BR Reanimator, but I'm willing to have a little less game against these decks (which I would consider rare) to have a card that is good at hitting a slew of things that give us trouble. And I'm not sure why I'd want my anti-combo pieces to hit Blood Moon or Deathrite Shaman. I'm using them instead of Thorn effects, not Abrupt Decay--but that's actually why I like Pyroblast. They fit into the board as part of the seven (or eight) anti-combo pieces, but you can also bring them in to hits things like Counterbalance or Meddling Mage. Not saying they're what I'll always play, but so far I've liked them.

[barcode]

I would say Lands is favored against Eldrazi but I guess I could be wrong. GP columbus will probably be a ton of Miracles and a ton of Eldrazi, I would expect ANT to be good in that's meta.

In my testing with Eldrazi I found the match to be very slightly in favour of Eldrazi. The reason is they don't need to cast Endless One as a 2/2. Once they start making creatures with toughness >2 Punishing Fire isn't as good. THE MOST important part of the matchup is a quick combo that doesn't rely on 1-drops (they play 4 Chalice). Punishing Fire can't be sided out at all. They have Wasteland too so don't lean heavily on Chasm lock or you could be a sad panda when they alpha you after wasting it. Eldrazi is definitely winnable but it's not easy.

[Djehuti]

I would say Lands is favored against Eldrazi but I guess I could be wrong. GP columbus will probably be a ton of Miracles and a ton of Eldrazi, I would expect ANT to be good in that's meta.

I would not recommend bringing ANT to a room full of eldrazi. Chalice, TKS, and thorn of amethyst are a nightmare for them. If the eldrazi deck scares people off of ANT, belcher and TES may be the storm decks of choice which might be a tad easier for lands to fight. I think Grixis delver may be a popular choice for the foreseeable future since its got game against miracles and eldrazi, and we can prey on that deck while still having game against the other two :)

[Dice_Box]

I would take us over Eldrazi every time in that matchup. They are a dog to Wasteland, have issues with Maze, Port and Tabernacle and they are while able to be fast, not great at dealing with someone that can roadblock their mana.

I like that Eldrazi is in the Meta, they really do help attack our worse matches while giving us a very winnable one in replacement.

Something to note about that matchup. Tabernacle gives the cost to the creature, it becomes an effect of that creature. Due to this, Temple can be tapped to pay for two Eldrazi under a Tabernacle.

[barcode]

Something to note about that matchup. Tabernacle gives the cost to the creature, it becomes an effect of that creature. Due to this, Temple can be tapped to pay for two Eldrazi under a Tabernacle.

This is not correct.

Eldrazi Temple says it can be used to pay for activated abilities. Tabernacle's granted ability is a triggered ability and not an activated one. Remember, activated abilities look like Cost:Ability with a colon notably between the two pieces.

[UnsungHero]

I've been testing R/G Lands against Eldrazi and its not a bad matchup, however it can be really nasty depending if they are running wastelands, or if they are running the W based version with Eldrazi Displacer. Ive also been testing Ghost Quarter again, and its been pretty solid. I also bring in Primeval Titan in this match as well, in case they have Displacer or Karakas. Sometimes Titan is win more, but there have been instances where Primeval Titan won me the game for me against Eldrazi.

I also had a hilarious game against Reanimator where they played Show and Tell, and dropped Tidespout Tyrant, and I dropped Primeval Titan and got Two Wastelands, Wasted both his lands, swung on my turn and got a Tabernacle and another wasteland. It was pretty sweet.

Currently My list is 61 cards (Standard R/G list + Ghost Quarter, Might Cut Riftstone Portal to bring down to 60)

Board Looks Like:
4 Chalice of The Void
4 Krosan Grip
3 Sphere of Resistance
2 Primeval Titan
1 Boseju ,Who Shelters All
1 Karakas (Flex Slot, Could Be Phyrexian Revoker or Pithing Needle)

I've also considered running 2 Phyrexian Revokers in the Boseju/Karakas slots, mainly to stop Top, as well as stopping LED in the Storm Match. It also is pretty good against DRS & Sneak Attack I considered needle, but I like the fact that Revoker can come down with Chalice @1 and as a former painter player I know a single Revoker can go the distance against miracles, and having them use a STP or Terminus on it is fine by me. Boseju is only decent in the Miracles match, and Karakas is only decent in the SnT & Reanimator Matchups. Revoker is good in Multiple Matchups. But with anything, it warrants testing. Also in testing Primeval Titan has been really good.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

This is not correct.

Eldrazi Temple says it can be used to pay for activated abilities. Tabernacle's granted ability is a triggered ability and not an activated one. Remember, activated abilities look like Cost:Ability with a colon notably between the two pieces.

What I thought although I haven't found anyone that says that you can't pay for two like that (nor have I found much of anything regarding that)

[CovenantElite30]

Is it just me or does it seem like Lands is falling in popularity?

Or maybe it's just the overall meta pushing this deck out of the format?

I rarely see it on camera.

[Dice_Box]

Opps. My bad.

It's not easy to play right. I have been playing Jund Depths or Combo Lands for over 2 years and I still fuck up. Its also not cheap. (What is really) I think Lands is more popular in some locations than it is others but I don't think it's popularity is dropping.

I mean, I don't seen many people put the deck down once they own it, we see the same names playing it and the same names posting here. It's not like Delver where you can pick it up and the switch to something else, then come back. It's a deck you have to want to play, have to enjoy playing and have to be driven to Master. (Don't I sound portentous)

[barfly]

Opps. My bad.

It's not easy to play right. I have been playing Jund Depths or Combo Lands for over 2 years and I still fuck up. Its also not cheap. (What is really) I think Lands is more popular in some locations than it is others but I don't think it's popularity is dropping.

I mean, I don't seen many people put the deck down once they own it, we see the same names playing it and the same names posting here. It's not like Delver where you can pick it up and the switch to something else, then come back. It's a deck you have to want to play, have to enjoy playing and have to be driven to Master. (Don't I sound portentous)
Lands is popular in Toronto. I like to think because I've played it for so long and have inspired people. :)

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[Chatto]

Is it just me or does it seem like Lands is falling in popularity?

Or maybe it's just the overall meta pushing this deck out of the format?

I rarely see it on camera.

Check my sig, there are still MU's to find. I know some can only be found on Twitch, and of course I could copy-paste them, but you know: copyrights. Overall, if I find a new vid on YT I will add it to the playlist.

About populair or not: it's just you pour a lot of money into this deck, but you can't really transport them to another deck. Nothing to do with popularity, rather the lack of 'family tree', like Delver for instance. Friends of my like to play the deck (some can), but to commit is a different story. I was fortunate enough to have some staples because of other 'fringe' decks, and was able to affort a Tabernacle before the Great Spike.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Lands has always been somewhat fringe due to Tabernacle. Prior to the RG build becoming a thing, you might see it once in a blue moon, you see it more now but it's still a remarkably small % of the meta game at any given point.

[non-inflammable]

Not sure if this was mentioned, but mr. Yu has another spicy list that did well:
2 ghost quarters, 2 groves, 3 ports, 2 vortex, 2 punishing fires and 2 manabond.

The list looks like a nice compromise but i like the devastating dreams in the sideboard.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=102608

[Djehuti]

Not sure if this was mentioned, but mr. Yu has another spicy list that did well:
2 ghost quarters, 2 groves, 3 ports, 2 vortex, 2 punishing fires and 2 manabond.

The list looks like a nice compromise but i like the devastating dreams in the sideboard.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=102608

He also played savannah and karakas main to support 4 containment priests post board. Really interesting choices for sure.

[Alexeezay]

speaking of white:
Nahiri, the Harbinger might be a good sideboard choice. Deals with all of the troublesome enchantments and +2 is good with Loam and lands to discard.
The card might be too cute.

[barcode]

If you expect tons of gravehate in your local meta, especially surgical extraction, DRS and Ooze, do you think boarding "Ground Seal" could make sense? Or is it too narrow for a SB slot? What are your experiences with this card?

Read Ground Seal and Life from the Loam. Let me know what you think. :)

[J0n]

Read Ground Seal and Life from the Loam. Let me know what you think. :)

Oops, sorry for the silly question. Did not remember the card correctly. Thought it would only count for the opponent...

Plz ignore ;-)

[gigapatrick]

Not sure if this was mentioned, but mr. Yu has another spicy list that did well:
2 ghost quarters, 2 groves, 3 ports, 2 vortex, 2 punishing fires and 2 manabond.

The list looks like a nice compromise but i like the devastating dreams in the sideboard.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=102608

Just wanted to point out that this list was piloted by Eric Yu, not Jarvis Yu. Now, I'm certain Eric is a fine, wonderful fellow, but that does not make him the same person that won a Gran Prix with RG Lands.

[Jon]

Which means his opinion is invalid because he didn't run hot at a GP. Maybe you should know a player before disregarding their changes and ideas as less because they aren't a "internet grinder pro"

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

[jarvisyu]

I actually looked at Eric's build, because someone wanted to know if I was related to him. (No, I'm not).

There's some very interesting ideas in there.

[jarvisyu]

Which means his opinion is invalid because he didn't run hot at a GP. Maybe you should know a player before disregarding their changes and ideas as less because they aren't a "internet grinder pro"

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

what is an 'internet grinder pro', and how can i be paid to be one?

[Chatto]

Which means his opinion is invalid because he didn't run hot at a GP. Maybe you should know a player before disregarding their changes and ideas as less because they aren't a "internet grinder pro"

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

I think you're misreading Patrick here. He just pointed out the fact that this isn't Jarvis Yu. Relax, nobody is disregarding anyone. In any case, I welcome people who are willing to think outside the box. Keeps things interesting, if you know what I mean.

[CovenantElite30]

what is an 'internet grinder pro', and how can i be paid to be one?

Do you stream legacy or post any YouTube videos playing lands?

Are you currently on your lands build from the GP or has your list evolved a lot (Splashing Black or White)?

I'm only asking because I was considering playing lands at the GP and wanted to see what success you've had with the list since your GP win.

[jarvisyu]

Do you stream legacy or post any YouTube videos playing lands?

Are you currently on your lands build from the GP or has your list evolved a lot (Splashing Black or White)?

I'm only asking because I was considering playing lands at the GP and wanted to see what success you've had with the list since your GP win.

I played RG/b for a little, and it was fine, although I didn't love the mana.

I played straight RG in a Super Sunday Series trial on Friday of GP Toronto, and chopped the finals with hyp3rion (who was playing Miracles).

I haven't had time to stream or record any videos, given 40 hour work weeks and only time after work to figure out what i'm doing for certain tournaments.


I do think RG/b is very good if you're willing to risk a shakier manabase, but straight RG runs so smoothly. I've moved off Choke, and moved onto 2 Boil + Boseiju, Who Shelters All.

[AnziD]

Boseiju, Who Shelters All.

boseiju... who shelters AAAAAAAAAAAALLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

anyways, eric yu is an extremely competent lands player and i would seriously consider any deckbuilding decisions he makes

[CovenantElite30]

I played RG/b for a little, and it was fine, although I didn't love the mana.

I played straight RG in a Super Sunday Series trial on Friday of GP Toronto, and chopped the finals with hyp3rion (who was playing Miracles).

I haven't had time to stream or record any videos, given 40 hour work weeks and only time after work to figure out what i'm doing for certain tournaments.


I do think RG/b is very good if you're willing to risk a shakier manabase, but straight RG runs so smoothly. I've moved off Choke, and moved onto 2 Boil + Boseiju, Who Shelters All.


I haven't had any luck with Boseiju seems very meta specific. I however been getting my butt kicked by several burn decks in my local meta.

It's gotten to the point I'm considering running 4 leyline of sanctity in my sideboard.

How do you feel lands is positioned in the Eldrazi filled meta? I can see how Eldrazi can push out some of our really bad matchups from the meta (ANT) but I find eldrazi to be rather annoying to play against as a lands player, especially if I don't know there on eldrazi game one. They seem to always have chalice on 1 which makes the game miserable but not unwinable.

[barcode]

I played straight RG in a Super Sunday Series trial on Friday of GP Toronto, and chopped the finals with hyp3rion (who was playing Miracles).

He's going to have to turn in his Lands cards soon since he's been playing Miracles for months now! :eek::eek::confused:

[gigapatrick]

I think you're misreading Patrick here. He just pointed out the fact that this isn't Jarvis Yu. Relax, nobody is disregarding anyone. In any case, I welcome people who are willing to think outside the box. Keeps things interesting, if you know what I mean.

Yes thanks chatto. Not trying to insult anyone. It's just that the original post made it seem like the new list was jarvis yu's, which it isn't.

In either case, i agree with j. Yu that rg feels smoother than rgb, though i'm not totally convinced boseiju plus two boils is better than running three chokes.

[hyp3r1on]

In either case, i agree with j. Yu that rg feels smoother than rgb, though i'm not totally convinced boseiju plus two boils is better than running three chokes.


You'll have to rip my Tabernacle from my cold dead hands before I ever get my Lands card revoked.

While I'm not the biggest fan of the Boseiju/Boil package you do need to have a Miracles hate strategy in the board. In my opinion, Chokes aren't that effective and wouldn't go in that direction. They're usually very easy to deal with and are a card that is literally on every Miracles players radars. With the amount of Chalices floating about the format right now, I wouldn't want to devote more of a Lands sb to vulnerable permanents like Choke.

[gigapatrick]

You'll have to rip my Tabernacle from my cold dead hands before I ever get my Lands card revoked.

While I'm not the biggest fan of the Boseiju/Boil package you do need to have a Miracles hate strategy in the board. In my opinion, Chokes aren't that effective and wouldn't go in that direction. They're usually very easy to deal with and are a card that is literally on every Miracles players radars. With the amount of Chalices floating about the format right now, I wouldn't want to devote more of a Lands sb to vulnerable permanents like Choke.


All fair points. I've been owned by wear tear once or twice.

[CovenantElite30]

All fair points. I've been owned by wear tear once or twice.

I have a heavy burn meta where I am, I'm thinking about playing 2 or 3 Courser of Kruphix out of the side.

Have you ever tested with this card?

[barcode]

I have a heavy burn meta where I am, I'm thinking about playing 2 or 3 Courser of Kruphix out of the side.

Have you ever tested with this card?

Kitchen Finks might be better for you, or going a bit bigger for Obstinate Baloth.

[gigapatrick]

I have a heavy burn meta where I am, I'm thinking about playing 2 or 3 Courser of Kruphix out of the side.

Have you ever tested with this card?

Yeah, back in UR Delver Cruise meta, I tested Courser. Decent card, though I don't think it would be enough against Burn. If you want lifegain, you could try Finks or Baloth, as suggested by barcode. You could also run a miser's copy of Zuran Orb, which sounds pretty great with an Exploration or Manabond on board. That's actually what I'd run, probably, though you will get scrag-dogged by Smash to Smithereens on occasion.

[Emrakul503]

I have nothing but good things to say about Zurab Orb, and plan on keeping one in my 75 for a while. I would reccomend it, as it has been great for me in keeping burn in check.

[hyp3r1on]

Zuran Orb also provides awesome utility as a sac outlet. For example in the Lands mirror or against something like dredge you can repeatedly sac Bojuka Bog to the Orb and recur it every turn.

Back in the days before Stage/Depths you always wanted to have Zuran Orb against decks with Swords to Plowshares to protect your one manland like Tarpit or Factory from being exiled.

[jarvisyu]

Frankly, before Daryl Ayers yelled at me on how to play against burn, I did think it was a bad matchup.

A few simple pieces of advice turned it around completely for me:

a) don't play unnecessary lands
b) mulligan your slow hands

I don't think Zuran Orb is necessary.

[Emrakul503]

Frankly, before Daryl Ayers yelled at me on how to play against burn, I did think it was a bad matchup.

A few simple pieces of advice turned it around completely for me:

a) don't play unnecessary lands
b) mulligan your slow hands

I don't think Zuran Orb is necessary.

I would generally agree with this. I have never had many problems with Burn, even without Zuran Orb. We can be faster than them, but any deck can lose to Burn, if it stumbles.

Try playing around with your numbers on utility lands against them.

[Dice_Box]

Crop Rotation, Glacial Chasm, Thespian's Stage, go away Burn.

[Rivfader]

A Glacial Chasm shield is hard to pull of though. You should arrive in a situation where you don't loose life from chasm, and where your number of lands grows over turns (because beside the shield, you still need to kill your opponent with 2 Punishing Fires, which costs you 2RRR+Grove)
For such a shield (no life loss, growing lands over turns), you need 5 cards besides the mana: chasm, loam, exploration, and 2 Stages. You don't need all 5 cards from the very start, and especially the stages you could dredge into.

Personally Chasm won me games because my opponent scooped, or died from his own Vortex. But I think I only established an eternal Shield followed by Punishing Fires once, and I think if burnplayers would force their landsopponent to play it out, they would often still take the game.

So I usually mull for a token with some acceleration. Ideally exploration for a T2 token and T3 kill, or mox for T3 token and T4 kill, as I usually get killed by burn on their T4 or T5. I'll also keep hands that lack something but with substantial chance of getting there, especially with croprotation as it can be both Stage or Depths, or Chasm when the quick comboplan fails. Like exploration, croprotation and manaproducing lands; which means you still need to draw into a Stage, or a Depths, or another croprotation, or a gamble.

[hyp3r1on]

The Glacial Chasm shield isn't that hard to pull of in my experience. Exploration is the key card in the burn matchup for sure though. Post board I wouldn't ever try to set up the shield though unless you're forced into it because the burn player will have some element of gy hate. The typical plan after board is to disrupt long enough with things like chalice and quickly combo out or just fast combo them.

[Rivfader]

Agreed on the importance of exploration, and I do not mean to depict a too harsh picture of glacial chasm.
But I do think it's important to realise it's not a silverbullet card against Burn, but rather a piece in a puzzle of multiple cards you have to pull off in a limited timeframe.

[barcode]

I played the black splash last night at a local Legacy event and got wrecked. I mulliganed six times in four games because the mana was awful. I'll be playing it through the weekend as its last chance before it's changed. Changed to either be Abrupt Decays in the sideboard, conceding Miracles game 1, or back to testing white or maybe just back to straight RG.

[CovenantElite30]

I played the black splash last night at a local Legacy event and got wrecked. I mulliganed six times in four games because the mana was awful. I'll be playing it through the weekend as its last chance before it's changed. Changed to either be Abrupt Decays in the sideboard, conceding Miracles game 1, or back to testing white or maybe just back to straight RG.

Could you post your list?

I'm curious because I'm also playing the black splash and haven't had any issues with the mana.

I play 3 abrupt decay and 3 PFire main with 1 Bayou and 2 Taiga.

[Varal]

Agreed on the importance of exploration, and I do not mean to depict a too harsh picture of glacial chasm.
But I do think it's important to realise it's not a silverbullet card against Burn, but rather a piece in a puzzle of multiple cards you have to pull off in a limited timeframe.

It's often a near silver bullet. You can pay some life to gain land drops if you get it early enough. I think a single Punishing Fire is sufficient for the kill, you don't have to dredge every turns if you've multiple Thespian's Stage. Graveyard hate can wreck the plan but they usually only have a few pieces.

[Rivfader]

It's often a near silver bullet. You can pay some life to gain land drops if you get it early enough. I think a single Punishing Fire is sufficient for the kill, you don't have to dredge every turns if you've multiple Thespian's Stage. Graveyard hate can wreck the plan but they usually only have a few pieces.

Well, I usually play the chasmplan against burn as part of a 5-card sequence in the back of my head, but if you can shield and win with less, I'd be very interested to learn how.

EDIT: I am not pushing this to be an ass or a troll. I just have the feeling we're overly convinced of chasm's effectiveness, without taking into account the complexity of pulling off a chasmshield.
Take for example a scenario without exploration. 2 stages copying eachother will keep chasm in play forever, if you dredge each turn. That puts you on a clock though, on about 16-17 turns (as you'll dredge out of your library). Pfiring for 1 each turn will take you 20 turns. Granted, there are some deviations as having an additional stage (1 single extra turn), if the burnplayer already lost life (less pfires needed), but also take into account that burn will have chipped away a large amount of life, if you want to loose some life to chasm to gain landdrops.
For your scenario, you need 9 lands (2 stages, 2 mana, 1G for loam and 1R+Grove). No matter when chasm enters play, there will be lots of life to pay (wether to burn because of a late chasm, wether to chasm because of the lifeloss for extra landdrops).

That's why I am pushing a bit on the subject. Maybe I am not seeing something in the possible sequencing of chasm (and somebody should literally show me step by step how it's done more efficiently), or chasm is not the silverbullet it is sometimes depicted.

[Djehuti]

I played the black splash last night at a local Legacy event and got wrecked. I mulliganed six times in four games because the mana was awful. I'll be playing it through the weekend as its last chance before it's changed. Changed to either be Abrupt Decays in the sideboard, conceding Miracles game 1, or back to testing white or maybe just back to straight RG.

Been thinking the same as of late. I went back to a punishing fire build and decay hasn't felt spectacular in it but i like having a mainboard hedge against miracles/eldrazi. I know other people here have recommended worm harvest and i have said not so nice things about it before but i tested it again over the last few weeks with good results. The card was great against eldrazi and shardless BUG and ok against D&T. Unfortunately i have 0 miracles players in my meta at the moment so i have no way of testing its effectiveness. Can anyone attest to how good worm harvest is against miracles here?

[Chatto]

I played the black splash last night at a local Legacy event and got wrecked. I mulliganed six times in four games because the mana was awful. I'll be playing it through the weekend as its last chance before it's changed. Changed to either be Abrupt Decays in the sideboard, conceding Miracles game 1, or back to testing white or maybe just back to straight RG.

Straight RG for me, I'm done testing. You just confirmed my feelings about RGb-manabase.

[Dice_Box]

Barcode, did you run the splash with a Black sideboard or with things like Decay main?

[Sibelius]

On the subject of Lands Metagames, the UK is full of it.

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/2016/05/11/axion-april-23rd-2016-decklists-and-meta/

:wink:

Sib

On Belcher, it is an ok MU, try to win the die roll and have a Gamble or Crop in hand. You should be ok. Empty gives you 2 turns to find an answer. Mulligan aggressively. Any hand without hate and you will loose.
Eldrazi is a great MU, havn't lost yet to it I don't think. Aim for a wastelock and Tabernacle plan and you should be fine. The highlight of BOM for me was beating Eldrazi on camera, Game one, turn 2 I cropped into Tabernacle, just lovely.

[barcode]

Barcode, did you run the splash with a Black sideboard or with things like Decay main?

Decays main. As a result there's 34 lands. It's awful.

[Dice_Box]

Decays main. As a result there's 34 lands. It's awful.

Yea, don't do that. You need to cut the Fires for space. One step forward, two back. Just sure up the sideboard.

[barcode]

I played the same 75 from last night tonight at my usual LGS and went 3-0 and hyperion scooped to me since I was the only x-0 and 4-0 gets a Plateau tonight. We played for fun to test the match and he beat me, both times on the back of Entreat the Angels. Against him on Miracles my strategy was to lean hard on Rishadan Port to hopefully pin his mana and then get there but I failed to draw cards of relevance in time.

This is the 75:

Main:

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
4 Punishing Fire
4 Gamble
4 Mox Diamond
3 Dark Depths
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Maze of Ith
3 Crop Rotation
2 Taiga
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Sideboard:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Primeval Titan
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Thrun, the Last Troll


The 60 is missing Tranquil Thicket and it hurts. It might be right that a Punishing Fire becomes a Tranquil Thicket, which raises the maindeck lands to 35.

The sideboard needs more work for Miracles, or I need a better answer to Entreat the Angels.

On the night:

Beat UR Delver
Beat Tin Fins (go Cage!)
Beat Grixis Delver
Concession and then the playtest.

[Chatto]

@ barcode: what kind of Miracles-build did you play against? How did you board and did AD had any impact? I noticed no discard, would it make any difference?

[Zombie]

Barcode's list is missing Loam.

[barfly]

Barcode's list is missing Loam.
Whoops. They're in there!

The miracles was a normal entreat version. Nothing fancy.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[Layalouhamesh]

@Barcode : Never had any titan revealed with the confident? Do you side them in in different match-ups, or to have an aggro plan?

[barcode]

@Barcode : Never had any titan revealed with the confident? Do you side them in in different match-ups, or to have an aggro plan?

They're for different matchups in general, but when I bring them all in it won't matter to reveal Primeval Titan. You can't have the fear with Bob! I've played him in Vintage before Dig and Cruise ban and yes I've killed myself with Bob but it's alright! Greatness at any cost.

[hyp3r1on]

@ barcode: what kind of Miracles-build did you play against? How did you board and did AD had any impact? I noticed no discard, would it make any difference?

I was playing Ponder Miracles with Entreats and no Mentors. Thrun is pretty solid versus the build I was playing but am dubious of how good he is vs a build with mentors.

[barcode]

I was playing Ponder Miracles with Entreats and no Mentors. Thrun is pretty solid versus the build I was playing but am dubious of how good he is vs a build with mentors.

Very bad. The goal of Thrun is to apply a quick clock that is hard to interact with. Mentor can just crap out blockers or go wider and bigger. I don't think I would use Thrun against a Mentor version. I'm also not sure Thrun will make the final cut, there might be a better card that fits that bill.

[Chatto]

@ barcode: overall, how did the black splash feel to you?

Personally, I tried and liked Dice and Pactrick's take on the Black Splash. It was a bit better, but I still have my doubts.

On the subject of second wincon, I had some creatures I would like to discuss:

- Goblin Rabblemaster:
Pro: doesn't care if there is a BM out, can be rather quick 'GG' if going unchecked.
Con: a real 'all-in'-card, perhaps pretty easy to deal with.

- Batterskull:
Pro: lifelink, 'easy to save, aka bounce'.
Con: manasink.

- Scavenging Ooze/ Tarmogoyf:
Well, perhaps too cute, but it has crossed my mind.

I would like to hear your opinions.

[barcode]

@ barcode: overall, how did the black splash feel to you?

Personally, I tried and liked Dice and Pactrick's take on the Black Splash. It was a bit better, but I still have my doubts.

On the subject of second wincon, I had some creatures I would like to discuss:

- Goblin Rabblemaster:
Pro: doesn't care if there is a BM out, can be rather quick 'GG' if going unchecked.
Con: a real 'all-in'-card, perhaps pretty easy to deal with.

- Batterskull:
Pro: lifelink, 'easy to save, aka bounce'.
Con: manasink.

- Scavenging Ooze/ Tarmogoyf:
Well, perhaps too cute, but it has crossed my mind.

I would like to hear your opinions.

Abrupt Decay isn't enough against Miracles. Surprisingly they have thought about this angle of attack. :) It's alright, though, to push through a Life from the Loam. Dark Confidant is worth it, though. It is a must answer card advantage engine which forces their Swords (opening up Marit Lage to win). Where Abrupt Decay shines is in the sideboard to answer Pithing Needles and crap like that. However, the RG version already has that covered with Krosan Grip.

Last year I was playing Rabblemaster and it's very fast when unanswered but I found it was easy to answer. It's pretty good in the mirror because it's normal to take out most Punishing Fires.

The next iteration for me may be to take out Abrupt Decays and put more lands back in the main, I want to go back to 4 Krosan Grips (bye Thrun). I want to keep the black for Dark Confidant. I'm not interested in discard spells because lands isn't quick enough to capitalize on that temporary advantage.

I've now played white and black splashes but I think the white is much better for disruption whereas black is better for getting an advantage.

[CovenantElite30]

I saw this weekend for the MTGO championship a player had Tireless Tracker as a 2 of in the sideboard. In game 2 he played it and get instant value with it playing a fetch land and fetching. Seems like a great sideboard card in the RG lands list. I'm not sold if it's better then Bob, but it is a threat that can get out of hand really fast. What's your thought on this in the side?

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I've been wanting to try tireless tracker for a while and finally pulled the trigger on some. I'll let everyone know how they do for me.

[Chatto]

Abrupt Decay isn't enough against Miracles. Surprisingly they have thought about this angle of attack. :) It's alright, though, to push through a Life from the Loam. Dark Confidant is worth it, though. It is a must answer card advantage engine which forces their Swords (opening up Marit Lage to win). Where Abrupt Decay shines is in the sideboard to answer Pithing Needles and crap like that. However, the RG version already has that covered with Krosan Grip.

Last year I was playing Rabblemaster and it's very fast when unanswered but I found it was easy to answer. It's pretty good in the mirror because it's normal to take out most Punishing Fires.

The next iteration for me may be to take out Abrupt Decays and put more lands back in the main, I want to go back to 4 Krosan Grips (bye Thrun). I want to keep the black for Dark Confidant. I'm not interested in discard spells because lands isn't quick enough to capitalize on that temporary advantage.

I've now played white and black splashes but I think the white is much better for disruption whereas black is better for getting an advantage.

So, basically it's a choice between card-advantage or disruption. Interesting, never thought about it like that. Would you drop AD entirely? And what kind of answer does Miracles have against AD? I can't think of any right now.


I saw this weekend for the MTGO championship a player had Tireless Tracker as a 2 of in the sideboard. In game 2 he played it and get instant value with it playing a fetch land and fetching. Seems like a great sideboard card in the RG lands list. I'm not sold if it's better then Bob, but it is a threat that can get out of hand really fast. What's your thought on this in the side?

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk


I've been wanting to try tireless tracker for a while and finally pulled the trigger on some. I'll let everyone know how they do for me.

Tireless Tracker sounds like a threat and card-advantage, all in one. It's also a green card, so no need for splashing. It's definitely a fast clock when going unchecked. Bob, however, gives you immediate card-advantage. I'm curious, and will look for a playset myself.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I think the normal play with tracker will be to try and wait until you can immediately play a land so that you at least get a clue if she resolves. I'm curious to see how fast the clues can be used while still doing the normal lands stuff and think that will probably make or break her.

[Chatto]

I could be wrong, but I got a feeling that it could turn out to be a manasink.

[barcode]

So, basically it's a choice between card-advantage or disruption. Interesting, never thought about it like that. Would you drop AD entirely? And what kind of answer does Miracles have against AD? I can't think of any right now.

I don't know. Abrupt Decay is way more versatile than Krosan Grip. It is a good answer to Delver, Young Pyromancer, Deathrite Shaman. It can be tough to beat Deathrite with Punishing Fire if they have a counterspell and then eat the Fire, but Decay is uncountable. Maybe Decay a one or two-of in the maindeck.

The most threatening thing Miracles can do in the face of Abrupt Decay is to just play lands. Jace and Entreat don't really care about Decay and it is with those cards that Miracles wins, not Counterbalance. Perhaps it's Worm Harvest we need to be leaning on. That's next to test.

[UnsungHero]

Took 17th out of 147 at the SCG Classic in Indianapolis and went 5-2-1. Ran a Standard R/G list with 61 cards. I think I might cut Riftstone Portal. I ran the SB I posted a few pages back.
I never got to use Primeval Titan, but may cut them for 2 Needles or Revokers. I also considered going back to 2 boils as well. I really want a solid card that is good against storm and miracles, as those are the matches I seem to do the worst against. Storm is also super popular where I am at. Ive played against it against the last 4 tournaments I played in. Ghost quarter was good all day. I'm glad I had it.

1. Infect-W
2. Burn-W
3. Shardless Bug-W
4. Elves-W
5. ANT-L (This one was a really close game against the person I drove with, he eventually made top 8.)
6. DNT-L (I felt really bad about this game. Very easy match up and kept some risky hands, and didn't realized people still played Mangara)
7. Dredge-W
8 ANT-ID (He knew I was on Lands, and kindly offered the draw so we would both remain in the t32, We played a game for fun and I actually ended up taking it.)

[Chatto]

I've been testing R/G Lands against Eldrazi and its not a bad matchup, however it can be really nasty depending if they are running wastelands, or if they are running the W based version with Eldrazi Displacer. Ive also been testing Ghost Quarter again, and its been pretty solid. I also bring in Primeval Titan in this match as well, in case they have Displacer or Karakas. Sometimes Titan is win more, but there have been instances where Primeval Titan won me the game for me against Eldrazi.

I also had a hilarious game against Reanimator where they played Show and Tell, and dropped Tidespout Tyrant, and I dropped Primeval Titan and got Two Wastelands, Wasted both his lands, swung on my turn and got a Tabernacle and another wasteland. It was pretty sweet.

Currently My list is 61 cards (Standard R/G list + Ghost Quarter, Might Cut Riftstone Portal to bring down to 60)

Board Looks Like:
4 Chalice of The Void
4 Krosan Grip
3 Sphere of Resistance
2 Primeval Titan
1 Boseju ,Who Shelters All
1 Karakas (Flex Slot, Could Be Phyrexian Revoker or Pithing Needle)

I've also considered running 2 Phyrexian Revokers in the Boseju/Karakas slots, mainly to stop Top, as well as stopping LED in the Storm Match. It also is pretty good against DRS & Sneak Attack I considered needle, but I like the fact that Revoker can come down with Chalice @1 and as a former painter player I know a single Revoker can go the distance against miracles, and having them use a STP or Terminus on it is fine by me. Boseju is only decent in the Miracles match, and Karakas is only decent in the SnT & Reanimator Matchups. Revoker is good in Multiple Matchups. But with anything, it warrants testing. Also in testing Primeval Titan has been really good.


Took 17th out of 147 at the SCG Classic in Indianapolis and went 5-2-1. Ran a Standard R/G list with 61 cards. I think I might cut Riftstone Portal. I ran the SB I posted a few pages back.
I never got to use Primeval Titan, but may cut them for 2 Needles or Revokers. I also considered going back to 2 boils as well. I really want a solid card that is good against storm and miracles, as those are the matches I seem to do the worst against. Storm is also super popular where I am at. Ive played against it against the last 4 tournaments I played in. Ghost quarter was good all day. I'm glad I had it.

1. Infect-W
2. Burn-W
3. Shardless Bug-W
4. Elves-W
5. ANT-L (This one was a really close game against the person I drove with, he eventually made top 8.)
6. DNT-L (I felt really bad about this game. Very easy match up and kept some risky hands, and didn't realized people still played Mangara)
7. Dredge-W
8 ANT-ID (He knew I was on Lands, and kindly offered the draw so we would both remain in the t32, We played a game for fun and I actually ended up taking it.)


Congrats! Any chance you will write a report?

[UnsungHero]

Congrats! Any chance you will write a report?

I'll do my best :)

1. Infect-W
G1- I see Early Hierarch and immediately put him on Infect. I am right. He is about to go off with Agent, and Crop Rot into Chasm, Keep chasm lock going, and kill his dudes with fire and waste him out. And he scoops.
G2- G2 he puts more of a fight, I crop rot into Chasm again, and start building up my board. I'm able to loam into a tabernacle, and grove/fire. I eventually get combo, and he crop rots into Karakas! He bounces the token but I'm able to waste the Karakas and try and combo again, and he STP's the the token, so I just decide to run chasm down, burn all his dudes, destroy all his lands, and token him to death.
This is the 2nd SCG ive played infect round 1. Sweet.

2. Burn-W
G1- Goblin guide beats into a bunch of burn spells, I'm able to make token but he kills me with double chain lightning and fire blast.
G2- Im able to Mox Diamond, pitching Riftstone portal, exploration, dropping stage and depths. I make combo next turn and kill him.
G3- He suspends Riftbolt, I Play Diamond, Exploration, Port and Stage, and drop Sphere. He never hits another land and I find combo and kill him.

3. Shardless Bug-W
G1- Deathrite opener, which worries me, but the Deathrite never really takes anything valuable, and I just eventually draw into combo.
G2- Manabond drops 5 lands, 2 of which are combo. He dies very fast.

4. Elves-W
G1- He GSZ's to Dryad Arbor, I waste the Arbor and get tabernacle with crop rotation. I have full control of the board destroying his lands and burning his guys, but I didn't end up killing him with combo super quick, because I wanted to see if he was on the Chaos elves or not.
G2- Similar to game one. Except I just kill him faster.

5. ANT-L (This one was a really close game against the person I drove with, he eventually made top 8.)
G1- I die to the typical storm nuthand.
G2- He plays git probe, and then cabal therapies me and gets rid of my exploration. I rip manabond off the top and drop the combo in play, he cant kill me so its on to g3!
G3- I put chalice at 1, and he eventually decays it. I find combo, and he ends up getting a very lucky ad nausem and kills me.

6. DNT-L (I felt really bad about this game. Very easy match up and kept some risky hands, and didn't realized people still played Mangara)
G1- I get a nutty Mox Diamond to Manabond drop, I have combo + a wasteland and riftstone in the yard. He dies very fast.
G2-I have to mull to 5, and my only green source gets wasted and I die to batterskull.
G3- He gets stoneforge early on with a batterskull, and my dredges are terrible. I eventually find combo, but he vials in managara and removes the stage and I die to a SoFI equipped Batterskull. I had a chance to gamble for a maze, but he hits the maze with the gamble.

7. Dredge-W
G1-He does dredge things and I keep his Colosseum tapped down and hes never able to activate it and when his yeard gets too wild I crop rot into bog. I find combo and kill him.
G2- I have Bog opening hand and he gets half is deck into the yard. I bog him and eventually draw into combo and kill him before he can re-stabilize.

8 ANT-ID (He knew I was on Lands, and kindly offered the draw so we would both remain in the t32, We played a game for fun and I actually ended up taking it.)
G1- He gets the quick kill on me. Not much to see here.
G2- I'm able to get double sphere, and find combo.
G3- I get chalice at 0 1 and 2. I also have 2 spheres. He scoops and we talk a bit about different legacy decks.

Not the best report, but hey I tried.

I get $75 in store credit, and use it to buy a Japanese Dark Depths and some other small things. Only need 2 Groves, 2 Depths and 4 Wasteland to have a all non foil japanese deck! Also have 29/60 of the deck signed as well.
I really enjoy playing this deck alot! I have been having alot of success in the tournaments I've played in with RG. I need to continue to test the most effective board cards that would be decent against Storm & Miracles. Both of those are super good decks and are very popular and I always manage to see atleast 1 or both of them whenever I play in larger tournaments. I think I might try 2 boil instead of the primevals, and maybe cut Karakas. I think you could even bring in a boil against Storm, not because its that great, but because you have so many dead cards against them. I did cast a boil against a storm player and got 2 lands, which was nice. But like everything, it warrants testing.

Also anyone going to GP Columbus next month? It would be nice to meet up with some fellow lands players!

[barcode]

6. DNT-L (I felt really bad about this game. Very easy match up and kept some risky hands, and didn't realized people still played Mangara)

I tried to warn people. This is why we should have Karakas maindeck. It always sucks losing to D&T. You'll get it next time!

[gigapatrick]

Also anyone going to GP Columbus next month? It would be nice to meet up with some fellow lands players!

Congrats on the finish. Good report, too.

I might make it to GP Columbus, though with a daughter and a pregnant wife, I can't say for sure. I'll post later if it's definite.

[Skyl3lazer]

I don't know. Abrupt Decay is way more versatile than Krosan Grip. It is a good answer to Delver, Young Pyromancer, Deathrite Shaman. It can be tough to beat Deathrite with Punishing Fire if they have a counterspell and then eat the Fire, but Decay is uncountable. Maybe Decay a one or two-of in the maindeck.

The most threatening thing Miracles can do in the face of Abrupt Decay is to just play lands. Jace and Entreat don't really care about Decay and it is with those cards that Miracles wins, not Counterbalance. Perhaps it's Worm Harvest we need to be leaning on. That's next to test.

For what it's worth I've been running Worm Harvest main (I have a moderately goofy list at the moment) and against miracles that card is straight gas.

[Djehuti]

Top 4ed a 1k this saturday.

Here's a link to the report: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30681-Satellite-Tales-of-Adventure-1K-at-T-O-G-I-T-Top-4-split-with-RG-Lands&p=949600#post949600

@djxtream I hope i got the details right on our match. let me know if i need to edit.

Worm harvest has been gas for me too. Anecdotes can be found in the aforementioned report.

Enjoy yall.

[djxstream]

Top 4ed a 1k this saturday.

Here's a link to the report: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30681-Satellite-Tales-of-Adventure-1K-at-T-O-G-I-T-Top-4-split-with-RG-Lands&p=949600#post949600

@djxtream I hope i got the details right on our match. let me know if i need to edit.

Worm harvest has been gas for me too. Anecdotes can be found in the aforementioned report.

Enjoy yall.

sounds entirely accurate...I also forgot a ton of details about our G3, I will say your Ghost Quarter was MVP and knowing I lacked one was the difference maker.

I was playing a 3x punishing fire/3x abrupt decay main list with spheres and bob in the board...and my spice a single Centaur Vinecrasher.

I'll shine some light for my matchups that day too, i dont keep very good notes.

Round 1) LED Dredge 2-1 win, bog is king. Wasting it and bringing it back just feels so wrong and so right. There was even a period in g3 where I had board control and he had an empty GY with a city of brass in play...and instead of wasting it, i just kept porting it. i think i did 4 times before getting the kill via marit lage.

Round 2) Esper Thing in the ice. 2-0 G1 opponent never shows a threat besides an FoW exile'd jace and 2 snap casters...i notice his deck box had mentor tokens so i go into game 2 with that in mind. G2 he plays 2 thing in the ices as I'm just setting up my board. I have the combo ready to go, but he has both things with one counter left on them, so i dont make a move. He eventually plays a 3rd one and then flips the others. He plays a karakas and passes. my untapped wasteland was waiting for that, so i waste it, make my combo and hope to fly over his things unless he can play 2 instants...which he doesnt.

Round 3) Lands 0-2. as @Djehuti mentioned, we knew going into the match it was the mirror, but neither knew of the exact build. I draw miserable hands with no action and just get owned rather promptly. ghost quarter was the mvp as if I was able to keep my forest in play, we may have had a game g2..but anyways

Round 4) Eldrazi w/ some Mud flavor. 1-2 G1 is over quick by playing multiple grim monolith and double reality smasher, maze of ith slows 1 down..but its not enough. G2 Wasteland / tabernacle is king. G3 He gets early threats on the board, thought knot..losing that crop rotation hurt ALOT...I get down to 1 more swing from what he has showing kills me, i dredge into chasm, pass to my opponent...he goes "come on wasteland" and tops deck it. He mentioned that people working with that deck only play 2 wastelands. he played 4 and now will never change that.

Round 5) Shardless BUG 2-0. my record is 2-2 at this point, my opponent is 2-1-1, I figure if i win this i should make tie breakers for top 8. and it goes just about as well as a shardless bug match can go. bobs were great even in just attacking, got him down to 9 life that when he played sylvan library, i didnt care.

So end up 3-2 with 9 points, they show the standings. I'm at 8th place while 2 others have 9 points under me and that at #1 is my fellow lands player....bring on the rematch mirror match
game 1) i just had the nuts. loam, exploration, wasteland, bog and fetch and 2 other cards i cant recall, maybe 1/2 of the combo...even joked with my opponent before we started I was blind keeping 7 cause of my mulligans previously.

game 2) we both go down to 6, scry shows me bog. and we have a chess match. I recall bog'ing a gambled worm harvest and wasting his karakas and bogging it away. and it basically came down my opponent making all 3 of on board stages forests (that he knows i cant touch cause we shared deck tech in rounds) and yeah you can read his report for the interactions that ended the game, i'm unsure I had another method that would of had a different outcome, i really needed one more port. my plan was make him lose all 3 of his stages, I make a copy of depths as well and hope he doesnt realize to copy my karakas, after he made that last stage copy my karakas, i knew there i was done and we moved to g3

game 3) stage, loam, no exploration but a crop rotation. and i know that crop rotation could be the entire difference maker..so i always kept a green up (in the form of an uncracked fetch...ghost quarter defense) waiting for the right chance to either ruin his day or go for my own kill....and has a loam in the yard but a green mana up as well, so i dont chance it...but then has he dredged, stage, stage, stage. when he tries to get them back I go for the bog...I still think it was the right move...but then he had the exploration/wasteland train going and i basically had an empty board as the game ended.

[Qujibo]

Had the dream scenario at my LGS this past Friday where a timely decay allowed me to hit is counterbalance and loam into a game 1 win.

That being said I still am unsure if it is good enough. I am running a list similar to giga's and only took the game because of a very complicated board state and a misplay on his end.

G2 was lost to bloodmoon - He forced my Mox diamond in G2 and i lost the game w/ decay in hand.

I just feel that if we are making such a big change to our explosiveness / consistency it should feel better then "kind of" getting there.

[barcode]

Had the dream scenario at my LGS this past Friday where a timely decay allowed me to hit is counterbalance and loam into a game 1 win.

That being said I still am unsure if it is good enough. I am running a list similar to giga's and only took the game because of a very complicated board state and a misplay on his end.

G2 was lost to bloodmoon - He forced my Mox diamond in G2 and i lost the game w/ decay in hand.

I just feel that if we are making such a big change to our explosiveness / consistency it should feel better then "kind of" getting there.

This is exactly my experience! I think the biggest win is Dark Confidant in the sideboard. Abrupt Decay is kind of a "freebie" so long as they're not overloaded on. Like I said a page or so back: Black is for the card advantage and white is for the disruption. If our goal is to break up Miracles we're focusing on the wrong colour.

[CovenantElite30]

This is exactly my experience! I think the biggest win is Dark Confidant in the sideboard. Abrupt Decay is kind of a "freebie" so long as they're not overloaded on. Like I said a page or so back: Black is for the card advantage and white is for the disruption. If our goal is to break up Miracles we're focusing on the wrong colour.

If you were to splash white what cards would you replace Bob and Abrupt Decay with?

[Dice_Box]

Gods, when this deck runs hot I love it. Still playing my same list as before, thinking about some changes but Decay makes me happy. 4-0 tonight, did not drop a game.

I think I am going to move the Bayou to the side, cut the Thoughtseize and look at some other combo hate. Maybe Chalice again when I get them back. The reason is that while I like Thoughtseize, I can not aways depend on having Black early enough to cast what I want early enough to be disruptive.

Keeping Decay and Bob, I am finding 3 Decay 2 Grip to be very strong. As long as someone doesn't start dropping Leylines on me I think I will stick with it.

[barcode]

If you were to splash white what cards would you replace Bob and Abrupt Decay with?

Gaddock Teeg is an extremely efficient hatebear. He stops:

JTMS
Entreat the Angels
Past in Flames
Empty the Warrens
Tendrils of Agony
Sneak Attack (being cast)
Green Sun's Zenith
Terminus

And so on.

Decay reverts to 4 K-grips and maybe even Swords to Plowshares as an efficient way to deal with creatures. You could also replace Bob with Crucible of Worlds, although I don't love that plan because there should be graveyard hate coming in and if it's Rest in Peace then Crucible is kind of a waste.

[CovenantElite30]

Gaddock Teeg is an extremely efficient hatebear. He stops:

JTMS
Entreat the Angels
Past in Flames
Empty the Warrens
Tendrils of Agony
Sneak Attack (being cast)
Green Sun's Zenith
Terminus

And so on.

Decay reverts to 4 K-grips and maybe even Swords to Plowshares as an efficient way to deal with creatures. You could also replace Bob with Crucible of Worlds, although I don't love that plan because there should be graveyard hate coming in and if it's Rest in Peace then Crucible is kind of a waste.


I like it! Once Lands becomes cheaper online (Mostly the price of Port) I plan on doing some leagues with it.

What about replacing Bob with Tireless Tracker? Much slower then Bob but does more work over time.

[Claymore]

Can add Knight of the Reliquary to fetch the combo, and then maybe Chalice to protect it too. GSZ to grab both Knight and Teeg...wait a second...

[barcode]

I like it! Once Lands becomes cheaper online (Mostly the price of Port) I plan on doing some leagues with it.

What about replacing Bob with Tireless Tracker? Much slower then Bob but does more work over time.

I've never tried Tireless Tracker. It might be better since you can get a clue right away but it might be worse because it costs 3 mana.



Can add Knight of the Reliquary to fetch the combo, and then maybe Chalice to protect it too. GSZ to grab both Knight and Teeg...wait a second...

I played a singleton Knight of the Reliquary in the maindeck during the white splash and it worked out well!

[J0n]

[..] I think the biggest win is Dark Confidant in the sideboard [..]

Really? In which MUs do you board Bob the most? To me Bob was seemed only good against miracles - where Boseiju was also shining against. In other MUs Bob seemed to be not the biggest help. Would love to hear your sideboarding plans with Bob!

Thanks;
Jon

[barcode]

Really? In which MUs do you board Bob the most? To me Bob was seemed only good against miracles - where Boseiju was also shining against. In other MUs Bob seemed to be not the biggest help. Would love to hear your sideboarding plans with Bob!

Thanks;
Jon

Honestly I want to play bob in every matchup except burn. :) It's a great creature that can start applying pressure and card advantage on turn 2 and who doesn't want to draw cards? The average CMC in the deck is <1 which makes Dark Confidant just "draw a card" that can attack, serve as a lightning rod for plows, and works around graveyard hate.

[Cfetchcaviar]

Honestly I want to play bob in every matchup except burn. :) It's a great creature that can start applying pressure and card advantage on turn 2 and who doesn't want to draw cards? The average CMC in the deck is <1 which makes Dark Confidant just "draw a card" that can attack, serve as a lightning rod for plows, and works around graveyard hate.

Played a list with three tireless trackers over Bob with amazing results. Outclasses creatures and flat out draws you more cards. Excellent in the miracles MU, and Aggro loam MU

[Chatto]

Played a list with three tireless trackers over Bob with azing results. Outclasses creatures and flat out draws you more cards. Excellent in the miracles MU, and Aggro loam MU

Could you eleborate on your MU's and list? Sounds promising.

[Claymore]

Just a thought, but it you go white splash you could go really spicy and get into ETutor boards and Limited Resources.

Not the most logical way about how to use LR, but it could have some impact if you can use Exploration, Wasteland, and Drownyard Temple (it's not "played") to tilt the 10 total lands in your favor.

[Cfetchcaviar]

Could you eleborate on your MU's and list? Sounds promising.

Sure thing, my meta is dense with loam strategies, miracles, eldrazi, bant, and DnT. When I originally tested Bob, I found myself only bringing him in for grindy matches and mirror. Playing Bob on turn 1 or turn 3 was never a game winning decider. TT's body was able to often dodge burn removal and benifit us more with a swords.
It ate many STP/bolts/pf/decay. Tracker, being +1 mana and requiring lands to trigger made it 1.5 turns slower. I never had a problem with landing triggers. In these matchups that speed loss is outwayed by tempo gain in a resolved TT. I also found him much easier to cast. At the time experimenting with abrupt decay.


Did not bring him in for delver games or combo. I also feel that playing Urborg helped turn him on. I imagine riftstone portal will do the same. Tapping depths, or maze of ith to sac clues was great.

It provides a real clock that needs to be dealt with. 2/1s that gain you cards/give information and dome you do not come close to raw advantage and synergy TT gave. Fetch lands, rotation, exploration fx all work well with it. Chalice on 1 +TT is a reliable wincon. Bob was never a damage dealing threat. Most of the time I never swung with him. I have been able to make a 10+ power tracker in games. Outclassing a knight of the reliquary feels good.

I'm not convinced I would take him to a large tournament. I don't think creatures is where I want to be unless it's his Majesty Prime Daddy.

Played just under 100 games with it.

Current list:
4 Rotation
4 Fire+Grove
3 Depths
Karakas, Bog, Raging Ravine,
Boseiju, Urborg(TOY), Ghost Quarter
2 Fetch.
No manabond

SB:
4 Sphere
4 Grip
2 Chalice
2 Boil
Trinisphere
Seismic assault
Zorb

[CovenantElite30]

Sure thing, my meta is dense with loam strategies, miracles, eldrazi, bant, and DnT. When I originally tested Bob, I found myself only bringing him in for grindy matches and mirror. Playing Bob on turn 1 or turn 3 was never a game winning decider. TT's body was able to often dodge burn removal and benifit us more with a swords.
It ate many STP, or was bolted/pf by an opponent. Tracker, being +1 mana and requiring lands to trigger made it 1.5 turns slower. I never had a problem with landing triggers. In these matchups that speed loss is outwayed by tempo gain in a resolved TT. I also found him much easier to cast. At the time experimenting with abrupt decay.


Did not bring him in for delver games or combo. I also feel that playing Urborg helped turn him on. I imagine riftstone portal will do the same. Tapping depths, or maze of ith to sac clues was great.

It provides a real clock that needs to be dealt with. 2/1s that gain you cards/give information and dome you do not come close to raw advantage and synergy TT gave. Fetch lands, rotation, exploration fx all work well with it. Chalice on 1 +TT is a reliable wincon. Bob was never a damage dealing threat. Most of the time I never swung with him. I have been able to make a 10+ power tracker in games. Outclassing a knight of the reliquary feels good.

I'm not convinced I would take him to a large tournament. I don't think creatures is where I want to be unless it's his Majesty Prime Daddy.

Played just under 100 games with it.

Current list:
4 Rotation
4 Fire+Grove
3 Depths
Karakas, Bog, Raging Ravine, Boseiju, Urborg (TOY)
2 Fetch.
No manabond

SB:
4 Sphere
4 Grip
2 Chalice
2 Boil
Trinisphere
Seismic assault
Zorb


Were you playing tireless tracker in the main or out of the board?

How many were you playing?

I feel like it's only good against Miracles, Mirror, Shardless and maybe Jund?

[Cfetchcaviar]

Were you playing tireless tracker in the main or out of the board?

How many were you playing?

I feel like it's only good against Miracles, Mirror, Shardless and maybe Jund?

I just told you my experience and the matchups. Two comments up, i mention 3 in the board. I'm not about feels, pick up 3 copies and play 100 games in your meta.
You are basically correct. Grindy matchups and mirror. I wouldn't bother bringing tracker in against jund. Our game plan shits on it so hard they need a wetnap post board.