[Primer] R/G Lands

[Domri Rade]

Does this guy have sideboard potential?

http://mythicspoiler.com/c16/cards/magusofthewill.jpg

[Sibelius]

Not in this deck.

[GiveMeYourOil]

Domri Rade ... That card is horrible in this deck.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Haven't been able to play D&T recently to see if the MD Barbarian Ring helps enough.

I've done a little bit of testing (School, Work and the occasional hangover have successfully stopped me from playing magic lately :frown: ), but it's been fine imo. Against a configuration with 2 Recruiters/2 Prelates, killing one is usually enough as they are reliant on drawing the other one at that point and you can certainly sandbag it until they play another Prelate.

[lavafrogg]

I played for fun at a local on Tuesday for some practice against a guy that is at the card shop every day....

Lets just say that he was the in person equivalent of an internet troll. All of his decks were home brews and each of them had main deck hate for as much of the format as possible i.e. enlightened tutor into blood moon, rest in peace, winter orbs.... all game one.

In addition to me drawing/playing like crap the whole night I can say it was a pretty terrible experience.

I look forward to some good games this weekend.

[Skyl3lazer]

Man, Jarvis is on Delver this weekend, RIP

[Ricardio]

I built the deck online and i have been getting brutalized by surgicals from EVERY deck. What should I do about it? Diversify threats? Faerie Macbre?
I am playing portless quarter version atm.

[chaosjace]

I have been thinking about Pull from Eternity, the deck is very resilient as it is. We have access to white already with Mox and riftstone, could swap a thicket or two back to horizon canopy. I haven't dealt with extraction effects enough to know how bad or not it is.

[lavafrogg]

It seems like everyone is playing hate specifically at lands similar to the way people over boarded against dredge years ago. Considering the list of cards you can attack the lands player with is fairly large I think it is easy to create a hostile environment for the lands players.

You can play around certain hate, like surgical, to a point, but when cards like surgical, counterbalance, rest in peace, blood moon (and to an extent Karakas/Deathrite/Wasteland) sometimes you just have to shelve the deck and go to your second choice.

[Layalouhamesh]

It seems like everyone is playing hate specifically at lands similar to the way people over boarded against dredge years ago. Considering the list of cards you can attack the lands player with is fairly large I think it is easy to create a hostile environment for the lands players.

You can play around certain hate, like surgical, to a point, but when cards like surgical, counterbalance, rest in peace, blood moon (and to an extent Karakas/Deathrite/Wasteland) sometimes you just have to shelve the deck and go to your second choice.

I think the hate is mostly directed at reanimator that gains interest those times since it is good versus Miracles, and Lands is merely a collateral damage. An answer to surgical extraction is also surgical extraction :) You can remove the target of your opponent's spell, check the deck and declare to find nothing to remove, since it's a hidden area for the opponent.

[Djehuti]

I built the deck online and i have been getting brutalized by surgicals from EVERY deck. What should I do about it? Diversify threats? Faerie Macbre?
I am playing portless quarter version atm.
Chalice on 1 helps.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[Layalouhamesh]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=6126&type=card

Stupid idea of the night: against Miracles, should we believe that Marit Lage will never see play? If so, tracker may be the best option. But if not, maybe Pandemonium could be interesting, since the only answer the deck has to a direct 20 blast would be Venser, and STP would be of no use. Also 4CCM is not the easiest thing to counter.

[DNSolver]

Since you already have Loam + Boseiju, Fling might be better. Be aware that their plan would turn into casting Swords on their own creatures.

[filln]

Since you already have Loam + Boseiju, Fling might be better. Be aware that their plan would turn into casting Swords on their own creatures.

Maybe that just shows that Pandemonium could be the stronger of the two since Pandemonium is repeatable and you don't lose your creature. Pandemonium also forces them to have a Swords + one other removal since they need to first survive the 20 damage and then remove the token.

[chaosjace]

You have no idea how happy I am that someone suggested Fling, I have always liked that card.

[Poron]

overall Pandemonium sticks and it is much more difficult to counter while Fling dies to both CB (that against Land will be set at 2 100% of the time) and Spell Snare.

I still think that Molten Vortex and Punishing Fire is just better against Miracle anyway

[heckler]

I think the hate is mostly directed at reanimator that gains interest those times since it is good versus Miracles, and Lands is merely a collateral damage. An answer to surgical extraction is also surgical extraction :) You can remove the target of your opponent's spell, check the deck and declare to find nothing to remove, since it's a hidden area for the opponent.

since it says remove any number, you don't even have to be cheeky about it.

[chaosjace]

God forbid they land a good entreat after you drop pandemonium

[Layalouhamesh]

God forbid they land a good entreat after you drop pandemonium

Haha true, but If they manage to do so, you're kind of dead on the next turn anyway with or without Pandemonium.

Overall, I think the Pandemonium/Fling strategy is a bad idea. A simple surgical extraction on Dark Depth makes the card completely useless, but I can't figure out any win condition that Miracles is not prepared for, without having it based on Marit Lage. Tracker/Molten Vortex seem to remain the best options for now.

[filln]

God forbid they land a good entreat after you drop pandemonium

For what it's worth I think "Chaos Jace" would be a fitting deck name for Miracles that runs Pandemonium secret tech.

[chaosjace]

For what it's worth I think "Chaos Jace" would be a fitting deck name for Miracles that runs Pandemonium secret tech.

I intend to test pandemonium in my group, I conveniently play lands and miracles... hmm

[jarvisyu]

Man, Jarvis is on Delver this weekend, RIP

I have been for a while, heh.

[Chatto]

I have been for a while, heh.

And with good result, congrats! Question: why did you switch decks?

[Darkgobs]

Hey guys:
This great article (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=593) was posted on the D&T thread (link (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6775-DTB-Death-and-Taxes&p=977135&viewfull=1#post977135)), but I think it concerns us too (and every MtG player atcually).

So now we can talk again of that damn 61th card in Land! :smile:

[filln]

Heads up: Daryl Ayers on Lands is currently 10-0 and about to play against Joe Lossett on Miracles: https://www.twitch.tv/scglive

EDIT: Also sounds like he's on the four Ghost Quarter plan.

[Dice_Box]

I have been playing Stax of late, 3 Quarter 4 Wasteland. Trust me, that plan is solid.

[Layalouhamesh]

Heads up: Daryl Ayers on Lands is currently 10-0 and about to play against Joe Lossett on Miracles: https://www.twitch.tv/scglive

EDIT: Also sounds like he's on the four Ghost Quarter plan.

Do you have a link to a replay of the match?

[GiveMeYourOil]

Do you have a link to a replay of the match?

Here you go.
https://www.twitch.tv/scglive/v/99442521#

[supremePINEAPPLE]

David Long and Daryl Ayers are both in the top 8 too. Great weekend for Lands.

[Chatto]

Ayers vs Fabiano, now on SCG Live

[Darkgobs]

Damn me, Ayers really know what he's doing. A truly impressive land player! °_0

[filln]

Long (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=109269) and Ayers (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=109236) lists are up. Long is back on the black splash! Has 3x Abrupt Decay and 3x Molten Vortex main with no PF/Grove package. He's also running Crucible in the side. Both players running the GQ over Port builds. Ayers has a 3x PF/1x Molten Vortex/1x Seismic Assault split.

[barcode]

I am very impressed with Daryl's play this weekend. This is why you play Karakas, people, to avoid getting beaten to death by a Miracles player's Clique.

[Darkgobs]

I am very impressed with Daryl's play this weekend. This is why you play Karakas, people, to avoid getting beaten to death by a Miracles player's Clique.

Well, against miracle, karakas is worse than maze of ith, doesn't it? I usually side out Karakas (if he's in the 60) and let 1 Maze in, cuz I don't want them to be able to play the clique / venser over and over again. What is your plan concerning p.fire, maze and karakas? As I said, I tend to leave in 1 p.fire, 1 maze and side out the rest of the creature-hate (except molten vortex of course). Not sure if this is right, tho.

[jarvisyu]

I am very impressed with Daryl's play this weekend. This is why you play Karakas, people, to avoid getting beaten to death by a Miracles player's Clique.

daryl is gas.

also self-proclaimed best Lands player on the planet.

[Dice_Box]

I have not yet seen the video, but to date I have seen little to make me disagree with that comment.

[jarvisyu]

I have not yet seen the video, but to date I have seen little to make me disagree with that comment.

yeah, he loves to troll me that i'm worse than dave long and him. ;___;

(obviously joking, and i obviously reply 'SCOREBOARD').

[Dice_Box]

Ha.

I miss Patrick commentating. It was always fun to watch you all play and here Cedric say:

"Looks like he drew a Wasteland for the t..."
"GET HIM!"

Fuck I wish I could play in those events with you guys. Would be a blast.

[myopic]

So I see that tranquil thicket has fallen out of favour. Not effective enough against the surgicals ?

[Sibelius]

So I see that tranquil thicket has fallen out of favour. Not effective enough against the surgicals ?


Fewer Deathrites about I imagine. I wouldn't leave home without 2 Thickets over here in the EU though.

Sib

[Claymore]

I've been seeing Surgical more and more these days.

[Lormador]

That's why I love the Ayer board-in of Chalice against Joe Lossett. He takes out the 1 drops that were so vulnerable to CB anyway, and shuts off Surgical in addition to Plow.

[Chatto]

I've been seeing Surgical more and more these days.

Surgical seems to be the #1 choice in GY-hate these days. It's frikkin' aweful. Makes me cry really...

[Sibelius]

Surgical seems to be the #1 choice in GY-hate these days. It's frikkin' aweful. Makes me cry really...

Just keep in your Thickets and play carefully. Often the decks with Surgical rely too heavily on it and we can often win without ever exposing a Loam to it. Or just spend your time playing around Surgical. Last resort is to Crop for Bojuka Bog and target yourself in response to the Surgical.

I know the deck gets value out of Loam but we can often just play 4 land drops and make a 20/20

;)

Sib

[Benama9]

Hi guys,

I've been playing sneak&show for the last year and a half, but lately I've decided I want to build and learn how to play lands. I've been gold fishing the deck for the past few days and it feels extremely difficult to play. It seems to me it punishes the smallest of the mistakes. Hence, i would like to seek advice in the community regarding the following aspects of the deck:

1. What makes a hand "keepable"? Is it imperative to have acceleration + tutor + Lands? This one is one of the most difficult questions. Sometimes I feel I keep a hand and I don't have the resources to deal with the opposing deck.

2. T1 deathrite shaman. What do you do if you have loam in hand and no tranquil thicket / draw outlet? Do you hold it? (This one might be silly, but I find myself in an akward position when this happens ) if you have a gamble in hand instead of loam; do you prioritize going for the punishing fire?

3. I'd like some advise on how do you hold / use gamble when having a loam in hand. How often do you use them t1?

4.regarding exploration. How good a hand must be to keep it without an exploration / mox diamond? Is it
unkeepable? Against blue decks: would you hold it first turn to play around daze on the draw? How does not having an exploration on the battlefield affects your play style regarding wasteland / GQ ( for those who use them )

5. For those playing with GQ main. How are you using them? Do you usually hold them until you have spare lands and start chopping the most dangerous color of your opponent?

6. How do you prioritize landing lands? ( color / not color ) how many color lands do you usually need on the battlefield to operate the deck?

I've read the primer, but I'd be very grateful if you could give this newbie some other useful advice on this deck, even things you realized after playing some time time with it. To be honest, I've been Armageddoned, surgicaled, deathrited and scavenged into ovlibion this days, but I've enjoyed every minute playing with it. It feels so different ( an awkward ) sometimes. However, usually I feel myself in "I have no idea of what I'm doing" mode. Ocasonally I'll pull myself some quick victories with the combo, but that's as good as it gets.

Thanks for your advice guys,

Cheers :)

[The_Dingo]

Hi guys,

I've been playing sneak&show for the last year and a half, but lately I've decided I want to build and learn how to play lands. I've been gold fishing the deck for the past few days and it feels extremely difficult to play. It seems to me it punishes the smallest of the mistakes. Hence, i would like to seek advice in the community regarding the following aspects of the deck:

1. What makes a hand "keepable"? Is it imperative to have acceleration + tutor + Lands? This one is one of the most difficult questions. Sometimes I feel I keep a hand and I don't have the resources to deal with the opposing deck.

2. T1 deathrite shaman. What do you do if you have loam in hand and no tranquil thicket / draw outlet? Do you hold it? (This one might be silly, but I find myself in an akward position when this happens ) if you have a gamble in hand instead of loam; do you prioritize going for the punishing fire?

3. I'd like some advise on how do you hold / use gamble when having a loam in hand. How often do you use them t1?

4.regarding exploration. How good a hand must be to keep it without an exploration / mox diamond? Is it
unkeepable? Against blue decks: would you hold it first turn to play around daze on the draw? How does not having an exploration on the battlefield affects your play style regarding wasteland / GQ ( for those who use them )

5. For those playing with GQ main. How are you using them? Do you usually hold them until you have spare lands and start chopping the most dangerous color of your opponent?

6. How do you prioritize landing lands? ( color / not color ) how many color lands do you usually need on the battlefield to operate the deck?

I've read the primer, but I'd be very grateful if you could give this newbie some other useful advice on this deck, even things you realized after playing some time time with it. To be honest, I've been Armageddoned, surgicaled, deathrited and scavenged into ovlibion this days, but I've enjoyed every minute playing with it. It feels so different ( an awkward ) sometimes. However, usually I feel myself in "I have no idea of what I'm doing" mode. Ocasonally I'll pull myself some quick victories with the combo, but that's as good as it gets.

Thanks for your advice guys,

Cheers :)


1. Hands are keepable if you can formulate a reasonable plan. Things like make a turn 3 20/20, punishing fire everything, and blow up my opponents lands are all reasonable plans.

2. The answer to this one is, try and find a P fire, or put all your eggs into 20/20 basket. If neither option in available, I would probably hang onto the loam until you are able to get the shaman off the board, since you are unlikely to get very much value from it with a DRS in play.

3. This depends in large part depends on what my opponent is playing. However, if i know my opponent is on miracles I'll happily gamble for a boseiju on turn 1. If I don't know what my opponent is on I'll sandbag the gamble until I have a clearer idea.

4. Exploration and mox diamond are great, but having them doesn't mean a hand is good enough to keep, and not having them isn't grounds to mulligan. They don't really constitute a plan all by themselves. As long as your opening hand has a plan, then the exploration part is just gravy. I don't generally play around daze, which may be a mistake.

5. I can't offer much advice here.

6. This part is hard. If my plan heavily revolves around stage depths combo I'll try and keep them in my hand until I'm ready to combo to protect them from wasteland. If I'm on a P fire plan, I sandbag a grove to protect it from wasteland.

Hopefully this helps

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Just keep in your Thickets and play carefully. Often the decks with Surgical rely too heavily on it and we can often win without ever exposing a Loam to it. Or just spend your time playing around Surgical. Last resort is to Crop for Bojuka Bog and target yourself in response to the Surgical.

I know the deck gets value out of Loam but we can often just play 4 land drops and make a 20/20

;)

Sib

Pretty much this, people will keep objectively bad hands because it has sideboard hate.

[benjiman13]

Hello guys, I need some tips regarding how to sideboard against D&T.
I try to go on the Tracker tireless route because of Rest in peace. I put also some k Grip and 1 pithing needle. I side out manabond, quarter, bog...
Do you side out some loam? Some mox?
Do you side in Chalice of the Void on the play?

[Dice_Box]

Do not side out Mox, its almost never right to do.

Against DnT I bring in the Grips and two Trackers. I cut a Gamble, Manabond, Glacial Chasm (They just have too many ways to answer this and if you need it your often not winning anyway.) Bog and the two GQ I run. 6 cards. I have at times also cut to one Thicket for the third tracker. This one is a bit touch and go. I do this against people I know are stacking up on more Grave hate than normal.

[Sibelius]

Hello guys, I need some tips regarding how to sideboard against D&T.
I try to go on the Tracker tireless route because of Rest in peace. I put also some k Grip and 1 pithing needle. I side out manabond, quarter, bog...
Do you side out some loam? Some mox?
Do you side in Chalice of the Void on the play?

In: 4 Grip, 1 Molten Vortex (Trackers if you can find other things to take out)

Out: Ghost quarter, Boseiju, Manabond, 2 Thicket

The main things to remember are:
BRING IN ALL KROSAN GRIPS.
You can keep making Marit lage into plow if you need some life.
Rishadan Port is better that GQ in this matchup as its better at keeping them off 3 Mana for Sanctum Prelate and 4 mana for Cataclysm.
You need an answer to Prelate, Molten vortex, Barbarian ring are the obvious ones.
Kill all their creatures with Pfire and Vortex and Tabernacle
Chasm lock can keep you alive or win the game

Hope this helps

Sib

P.s they often side out Revoker, whose only target is Mox in our deck (or clues or vortex...).
Don't side out Mox in any matchup.

[cin]

Hi, I've been using BRG Lands for a while, I like the build because of its main board Abrupt Decay.

I just want to ask if is it good to SIDEBOARD a Dark Confidant?
and what is the pros and cons of using it.


Thank you very much!

[Dice_Box]

Revoker can't name Clue.

[Goose]

Hi, I've been using BRG Lands for a while, I like the build because of its main board Abrupt Decay.

I just want to ask if is it good to SIDEBOARD a Dark Confidant?
and what is the pros and cons of using it.


Thank you very much!

I played RGb lands for a little while and Bob was definitely a good sideboard card for me and won me games. However, in that slot he does compete with Tracker and I don't think he's better.

[cin]

I played RGb lands for a little while and Bob was definitely a good sideboard card for me and won me games. However, in that slot he does compete with Tracker and I don't think he's better.

usually what do you board out when you put in Bobs? and is bob really an inferior when comapared to Tireless Tracker?


Assuming this would be my deck:

DECKCOUNT: 61 TOTAL

[35 LANDS]
1 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage

[17 INSTANTS / SORCERIES]
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Crop Rotation
3 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire

[5 ENCHANTMENTS]
4 Exploration
1 Manabond

[4 ARTIFACTS]
4 Mox Diamond

SIDEBOARD
4 Dark Confidant
3 Krosan Grip
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Molten Vortex
1 Pyroclasm
2 Toxic Deluge

What would be my Boardings for the ff:

GRIXIS DELVER
REANIMATOR
UWR MIRACLES
DARK MAVERICK
BUG DELVER
RUG DELVER
DEATH AND TAXES
ELDRAZI AGGRO
ELVES
SHARDLESS
POX
INFECT
OMNITELL
SNEAK SHOW

Example:

DEATH AND TAXES: +3 Krosan Grip, +2 Deluge | -1 Manabond, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 GQ, -1 Punishing Fire, -1 Crop Rotation

Thank you very much for the Help!

[chaosjace]

SIDEBOARD
4 Dark Confidant
3 Krosan Grip
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Molten Vortex
1 Pyroclasm
2 Toxic Deluge

What would be my Boardings for the ff:

GRIXIS DELVER
Possibly grip for game 3, I am not sure how common winter orb is but they like it.
Pyroclasm for YP and possibly spheres
Reanimator
Spheres, maybe confidant

UWR MIRACLES
Confidant,
DARK MAVERICK
BUG DELVER
Same as grixis
RUG DELVER
Same as grixis
DEATH AND TAXES
Confidant and pyroclasm and deluge
ELDRAZI AGGRO
Grips and deluge
ELVES
Deluge pyroclasm and maybe sphere
SHARDLESS
POX
INFECT
OMNITELL
Sphere and grips
SNEAK SHOW
Sphere and grips
I don't know too much about some of these matchups but this is probably how I would board.
Doing this from my phone is awful ~

[Chatto]

Revoker can't name Clue.

Why not?

[Mr Miagi]

Because it is not a card. Same as you cannot name goblin token with Runed Halo.

[Chatto]

Because it is not a card. Same as you cannot name goblin token with Runed Halo.

Brainfart... Ok, thanks, I focused on artifact, not taking in account the word 'token'.

[Djehuti]

Don't side out Mox in any matchup.

I know this wasn't the main point of your post i have some philosophical differences with this statement. I consider siding out some number of mox diamond when the extra mana isn't worth the 2 card investment or the matchup is grindy and drawing a mox off the top in a stale mate is about the same as time walking yourself (I'd shave some number against miracles, possibly DnT but still feeling this one out). Is there a reason you insist that mox should never be sided out against any deck?

[Benama9]

1. Hands are keepable if you can formulate a reasonable plan. Things like make a turn 3 20/20, punishing fire everything, and blow up my opponents lands are all reasonable plans.

2. The answer to this one is, try and find a P fire, or put all your eggs into 20/20 basket. If neither option in available, I would probably hang onto the loam until you are able to get the shaman off the board, since you are unlikely to get very much value from it with a DRS in play.

3. This depends in large part depends on what my opponent is playing. However, if i know my opponent is on miracles I'll happily gamble for a boseiju on turn 1. If I don't know what my opponent is on I'll sandbag the gamble until I have a clearer idea.

4. Exploration and mox diamond are great, but having them doesn't mean a hand is good enough to keep, and not having them isn't grounds to mulligan. They don't really constitute a plan all by themselves. As long as your opening hand has a plan, then the exploration part is just gravy. I don't generally play around daze, which may be a mistake.

5. I can't offer much advice here.

6. This part is hard. If my plan heavily revolves around stage depths combo I'll try and keep them in my hand until I'm ready to combo to protect them from wasteland. If I'm on a P fire plan, I sandbag a grove to protect it from wasteland.

Hopefully this helps

This has been really helpful. Thanks a lot! :)

[The_Dingo]

usually what do you board out when you put in Bobs? and is bob really an inferior when comapared to Tireless Tracker?

IMO tracker is better and it's not even close. The best point in trackers favor is that tracker is a great clock that bob can't even compare to. Also, the clues can be cracked to save a loam from surgical or a DRS activation, and with either exploration or fetchlands tracker can make multiple clues per turn.

[Sibelius]

I know this wasn't the main point of your post i have some philosophical differences with this statement. I consider siding out some number of mox diamond when the extra mana isn't worth the 2 card investment or the matchup is grindy and drawing a mox off the top in a stale mate is about the same as time walking yourself (I'd shave some number against miracles, possibly DnT but still feeling this one out). Is there a reason you insist that mox should never be sided out against any deck?

Mox is Exploration 4-8 in the deck. The entire deck is built on the advantage gained through returning lands for the GY with Loam. This make Mox diamond's downside negligible.
In the games where you worry about Mox being a dead draw, you have effectively lost anyway as you are not Loaming your top three. Ie. you are at a stage where you have either lost your Loam engine (through careless play or great skill by your opp) or you are drawing in the vain hope you will hit that one out you need. Cutting Mox does not make it any more likely you will hit that 'out'. There will still be the same number of cards in your deck in this hypothetical situation.
The gains of having extra mana in the critical early turns that Mox Diamond gives you is much much much more important than 'what you might draw at some later unspecified point'

It makes green and red mana. By cutting Mox Diamond you are cutting mana sources from the deck. This deck does not have many coloured mana sources. 4 Burnwillows, 3-4 Fetches, 2 Taiga and 1 Forest is not much at all.

More specifically against Miracles you should leave Mox in for many reasons.
It gives you green under Bloodmoon if you havn't seen a fetch or your forest,
It produces mana if you have been hit with From the Ashes.
It produces mana through Back to Basics and Tsabo's Web (both seen out of Miracles boards this last SCG)
It colour fixes should you be splashing Abrupt decay or need to double Pfire Angel Tokens.
It is integral to the deck functioning properly.
It also gives their Wear//Tear 8 targets rather than just your 4 Explorations.
Miracles is a MU where many people bring in Sphere and Chalice. Mox helps us negate the disadvantage of Sphere and play a turn 1 chalice.

Against DNT you should keep it in as other than it being integral to the deck, you get to keep it around after Cataclysm and players might leave in Revokers to name it (this is bad for them)

Hope this helps/isn't too much of a rant

Sib

[filln]

It also gives their Wear//Tear 8 targets rather than just your 4 Explorations.


Are you sure this is a positive? Getting 2-for-1s like this is what Miracles thrives on.

That said, I'll admit that I have typically sided out one or two Moxes in my Miracles and D&T matches but your reasonings are compelling enough to make me try leaving them all in for a while to test out.

[Flower_Power]

Hey all, I'm fairly new to the deck and was looking to play David Long's list from the recent open. However, I have a few questions about sideboarding. For reference, here's the list

Mainboard
1 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Maze of Ith
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Taiga
4 Thespian's Stage
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Dark Depths
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
3 Molten Vortex
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Crop Rotation
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam

Sideboard
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Crucible Of Worlds
2 Sphere of Resistance
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Kozilek's Return
2 Krosan Grip
4 Thoughtseize

Now, I'm fairly sound with most of the SB, however it's the Chalice and the Trackers where I'm stumped. When do I board in either card? And how do I know what to set Chalice on and when in the game to cast it, even if it's in my opener? Thanks in advance all!

EDIT: would it be worth it to try out a Sejiri Steppe in place of Tabernacle to get around StP? I'm sure I can get $1k worth of trade/sell stuff for the card, but i just don't know I'm ready to pull the trigger on selling out of what I have of my current deck/Modern.

[Dice_Box]

If you can't get a Tabernacle, do not put step in its place. It's not a good card. Run another utility land like Riftstone or go in deep and put a Smokestack in its place. I personally can not tell someone to spend the money needed to get a Tabernacle these days, but if you can get one, it's a much better deck for it and the longer you wait the worse the pain will be.

[Layalouhamesh]

Here you go.
https://www.twitch.tv/scglive/v/99442521#

Thanks! Looks like he dropped Thicket. I'm thinking of doing the same to favor explosivitt but moving them to sb to protect from surgical (in addition to 4 chalice already there). I was also thinking of Noxious Revival as a solution, but does not really combo with chalice. Did anybody try this card?

[filln]

Thanks! Looks like he dropped Thicket. I'm thinking of doing the same to favor explosivitt but moving them to sb to protect from surgical (in addition to 4 chalice already there). I was also thinking of Noxious Revival as a solution, but does not really combo with chalice. Did anybody try this card?

I've thought about Noxious Revival before but it just doesn't seem like a good card. Unlike Tranquil Thicket or Horizon Canopy you cannot recur it or get it out of your graveyard should you dredge it. It's also card disadvantage since it goes on top of your library. One side benefit is that you might be able to use it for messing with people's Tops, but the use case there is so narrow that it won't likely happen that often or to much effect.

[Tutor]

I liked David Long list too. But not sure.
Wich version will be better against miracles, infect, DnT and elves?
Maybe Daryl couse Punishing fire combo or David couse Molten Vortex?

[Layalouhamesh]

I've thought about Noxious Revival before but it just doesn't seem like a good card. Unlike Tranquil Thicket or Horizon Canopy you cannot recur it or get it out of your graveyard should you dredge it. It's also card disadvantage since it goes on top of your library. One side benefit is that you might be able to use it for messing with people's Tops, but the use case there is so narrow that it won't likely happen that often or to much effect.

It may also be useful against Reanimator to fizzle a reanimation spell. Still I'm not fully convinced myself.

I also saw Long playing a crucible of worlds. Pretty sure that the main target for surgical would be Dark Depth rather than Loam. So what is it for in your opinion?

[Flower_Power]

@Tutor, both lists ran Molten Vortex. Personally, I'm inclined to say David's because it runs Decay AND Krosan Grip, which are really good for B-Moon Decks and Miracles.

EDIT: and the 4 of Thoughtseize in the board makes it so you don't have to even worry about problem cards like CB and B-Moon resolving in the first place. However, vs Infect, I'm inclined to say Daryl's is better simply because of Grove + P-Fire.

[Tutor]

@Tutor, both lists ran Molten Vortex. Personally, I'm inclined to say David's because it runs Decay AND Krosan Grip, which are really good for B-Moon Decks and Miracles.

EDIT: and the 4 of Thoughtseize in the board makes it so you don't have to even worry about problem cards like CB and B-Moon resolving in the first place. However, vs Infect, I'm inclined to say Daryl's is better simply because of Grove + P-Fire.

I mean Molten vortex MD. And yes Daryl has PF combo, Molten Vortex, Seismic too.
They write reports or primers for any site?

ty

[Flower_Power]

I mean Molten vortex MD. And yes Daryl has PF combo, Molten Vortex, Seismic too.
They write reports or primers for any site?

ty

Not sure if they do or not.

[filln]

It may also be useful against Reanimator to fizzle a reanimation spell. Still I'm not fully convinced myself.

I also saw Long playing a crucible of worlds. Pretty sure that the main target for surgical would be Dark Depth rather than Loam. So what is it for in your opinion?

Good call on Reanimator.

As for the Crucible, it's probably in there for two reasons: 1) Improves your chances of wrecking your opponent's manabase since he's running a full set of Wasteland and Ghost Quarter, 2) Good if you're expecting a lot of Wasteland decks in the meta.

[Dice_Box]

Crucible gives you outs to Prelate.

[Layalouhamesh]

Crucible gives you outs to Prelate.

Ok, I have my last SB slot for this weekend!

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Pretty good against miracles also

[Ricardio]

http://i.imgur.com/cJ7ELHmh.png
http://i.imgur.com/cJ7ELHm.png

This is what I am currently playing but I need a lot more practice. Still a bit new to the archetype.

I would love any and all tips to fighting against Surgicals and Miracles.

[Dice_Box]

Pretty good against miracles alsoAgreed. I have been playing Stax for the last month and have been loving the Crucibles. When you have it online you can do some crazy shit. I love when they grab the top card to flip it and you have to call them to stop. "Quarter your Plains." Then you get the "Oh fuck" look followed by replaying the Land.

Oh and Crucible is a bitch when you have an Exploration effect going. For me it's been Orrery, but anything will do.

[Alexeezay]

It would be really interesting to see how Daryl Ayers sideboarded or how you do in general with the Baltimore t8 list, because quite a few things changed.

[benjiman13]

Anyone have played against the BR reanimator?
I find it quite a tough match up, the turn 1 Griselbrand is really hard to fight before sb!
And even after sb, with karakas and bog, removing their first target in response to a reanimation spell... it seems that they have so much density!
Even a chalice at 1 is not blocking the animate dead and exhume without saying that their discard can take it before it lands!
And they also have Tirespout tyrant to avoid the issue Karakas or Maze!

Any advice?

[Darkgobs]

[...]
I would love any and all tips to fighting against Surgicals and Miracles.

Well, the first thing I would advice you to do is to play 4 Chalice instead of 4 Sphere of Resistance. The first is way more useful in the actual meta, especially in the Miracle match-up. Here, Sphere does little compared to Chalice, because not beeing able to cast any cantrip, Sensei's and Sword to Plowshare is very powerfull. And please everyone: don't bring the Boseiju + Sphere + Crop/Gamble argument: it is nice when it happens, we should use it if possible, but this shouldn't be the main strategie to fight back against deck with counterspells. Sphere was usefull back in the days when they were a lot of OmniTell, which is not the case anymore. And against almost every other combo, I find Chalice to be better, even if it harms us a bit too. So if I want to play more than 4 hate-spells artifact, I will almost everytime go for 4 CoV and 2 SoR (or, if sphere is really needed, a 3-3 split).

EDIT: oh, and against Miracle, Molten Vortex, even if it cost 1, is a really powerfull card, which also comes very handy in others match-ups.

[barcode]

Anyone have played against the BR reanimator?
I find it quite a tough match up, the turn 1 Griselbrand is really hard to fight before sb!
And even after sb, with karakas and bog, removing their first target in response to a reanimation spell... it seems that they have so much density!
Even a chalice at 1 is not blocking the animate dead and exhume without saying that their discard can take it before it lands!
And they also have Tirespout tyrant to avoid the issue Karakas or Maze!

Any advice?

Play Karakas and Bojuka bog maindeck.

We can't beat Tidespout Tyrant so don't even try.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Does BR play tidespout?

[ComplexPants]

Does BR play tidespout?

Yes they do, as well as sire of insanity, which is a common turn 1 play as well.

[jhport12]

Thankfully B/R Reanimator is a small part of the meta. It has a rough time against Chalice Decks of which there are the popular Death & Taxes and Eldrazi.

Combo decks are always rough, but with Miracles being another top deck (and having Swords, Force and Counterbalance) it is hard to get too worried.

HOWEVER, this is one reason why a 4 Chalice sideboard would be better than a 4 Sphere sideboard.

A bad Reanimator player will get a legendary creature, a smart one will get Tidespout Tyrant. Sometimes you can get lucky.

[.Ix]

I like the 4 Chalice SB right now. 4 Chalice 2 Sphere 4 Crop Rotation / Bog / Karakas is ok against BR Reanimator. It's not exactly a free win for them if they can't Entomb for the T1 Tidespout. 4 Chalice and 3-4 Tracker SB just does a lot of work against Miracles. I did manage to lock myself out of a game where I brought in 4 Chalice 3 Tracker though. Mulled to 5 into a T1 Chalice with nothing else, really, hoping to just draw a Tracker or Decay for whatever he manages to play. I lost to a Snapcaster chipping me out.

This considered, what does everyone think of Sylvan Scrying in this deck? I remember seeing a list with 1 of those in the main. Thinking of cutting the third Maze and going to 61 for 2 Sylvan Scrying. This gives us ways to tutor for lands with Chalice in play.

[cab0747]

Ok, so this might be a dumb question: In Ayers list, why the 1/1 split of Seismic Assault and Molten Vortex?

I like his list, but this is my only real hold-up.

[.Ix]

I think that part is all about dodging Prelate + Revoker from Death and Taxes.

[Sibelius]

Anyone have played against the BR reanimator?
I find it quite a tough match up, the turn 1 Griselbrand is really hard to fight before sb!
And even after sb, with karakas and bog, removing their first target in response to a reanimation spell... it seems that they have so much density!
Even a chalice at 1 is not blocking the animate dead and exhume without saying that their discard can take it before it lands!
And they also have Tirespout tyrant to avoid the issue Karakas or Maze!

Any advice?

If this is against the list with Chancellor fo the Anex you just need to get a Maze of Ith going generally. This is a reason not to overload on Chalices. Crop for Maze vs their durdle guys is a great plan.
Also bring in Grip for their 3 BloodMoon after board.
Mana denial should be the plan, so Spheres come in.

Sib

[Alexeezay]

Ok, so I took Daryl Ayer's build out for a tournament and realized a few things:

1) more Reanimator in the metagame, you want Karakas and/or Bojuka Bog maindeck.
4) dozens of Surgical Extractions everywhere -> 4 Tracker 4 Chalice great, maybe 1x Crucible of Worlds to diversify (and side-out 1 Loam)? Also good vs Chalice on 2 from Aggro Loam/Eldrazi.
2) Seismic Assault is great, but Molten Vortex (1 mb, 1sb) often sucked with 4x Chalice. Assault helps in tricky situations and is kind of unexpected!
3) 4x Chalice sb is great in multiple matchups. Better than the Spheres atm.
5) Boseiju is great and better as a maindeck card for your Crop Rotations in the Miracle MU.
6) Ghost Quarter was awesome and versatile in every round. It shuts down another angle from your opponent and can actually make them sac the whole board with Tabernacle. Strict upgrade from Port in this metagame, much better vs green-based decks, Delver and Miracles.
7) I still get colorless hands and would like more colored sources to make life easier.

So moving forward, cutting 3rd Fire, Vortex, 4th Grove, 4th Depths for 2 Taiga, 2nd Seismic Assault & Karakas. I have no idea what to cut for the Bojuka Bog main, maybe switch it with Boseiju (which is a better maindeck card though).
I could get greedy and not play the additional colored source to fit in the Bog.
I also cut the sb Ancient Grudge for Crucible of Worlds.

Let me know your thoughts!

[Sara_Anderson]

I was wondering if someone could explain how chalice of the void is better then sphere of resistance? I live in a small town without much of a legacy scene so I don't get a lot of practice. I feel like I always get stuck with a bunch of my own one drops stuck in my hand and it takes a while to get the ball rolling without them. I plan on going to GP Louisville so I need to tune my deck to a much larger meta.

[chaosjace]

I was wondering if someone could explain how chalice of the void is better then sphere of resistance? I live in a small town without much of a legacy scene so I don't get a lot of practice. I feel like I always get stuck with a bunch of my own one drops stuck in my hand and it takes a while to get the ball rolling without them. I plan on going to GP Louisville so I need to tune my deck to a much larger meta.




Legacy is packed with one drops, usually around 14 and they range from swords, bolt brainstorms ponders, turn one chalice on one shuts down so much in legacy and puts them behind. Sphere is good against combo when they rely on petals and spells that increases mana, taxing that gives you time to stabilize against combo. It changes your plans also but it's usually more important to stop them for several turns

[.Ix]

I was wondering if someone could explain how chalice of the void is better then sphere of resistance? I live in a small town without much of a legacy scene so I don't get a lot of practice. I feel like I always get stuck with a bunch of my own one drops stuck in my hand and it takes a while to get the ball rolling without them. I plan on going to GP Louisville so I need to tune my deck to a much larger meta.

I could be wrong, but I board out a bunch of 1cc spells when I bring in Chalice. Against Miracles, Rotation goes away, and a Gamble or two. I don't like casting Gambles before Chalice on 1 because I could expose the card I Gambled to Extraction, and obviously I can't even cast them after Chalice is in play. Vortex is just so good against Miracles that I can't cut it, but it does get awkward. Tracker can get you way ahead with Chalice in play.

[Ingo]

I was wondering if someone could explain how chalice of the void is better then sphere of resistance? I live in a small town without much of a legacy scene so I don't get a lot of practice. I feel like I always get stuck with a bunch of my own one drops stuck in my hand and it takes a while to get the ball rolling without them. I plan on going to GP Louisville so I need to tune my deck to a much larger meta.

Chalice has an edge for me because it is also very good against Miracles, possibly shutting down all cantrips, top, swords and extraction. If you board them in versus Miracles, i'd cut gambles, but leave the crop rotations for Boseiju. Also, swapping Ports for Ghostquarters makes spheres weaker.

But spheres (and Port) are overall better as the mana denial can work against any deck. Chalice is worse against S&T, and also Reanimator as it can dodge Chalice1 with its 2cc reanimation spells (and discard to handsize), and you really need your own 1cc spells (crop for Bog). Both sphere and Chalice are good against Storm, but I also prefer spheres here as you still can cast crop rotation and gamble.

[Sibelius]

But spheres (and Port) are overall better as the mana denial can work against any deck. Chalice is worse against S&T, and also Reanimator as it can dodge Chalice1 with its 2cc reanimation spells (and discard to handsize), and you really need your own 1cc spells (crop for Bog). Both sphere and Chalice are good against Storm, but I also prefer spheres here as you still can cast crop rotation and gamble.

This guy has it right.

Too much of the deck functions on having 1 drops for Chalice on 1 to be the main post board plan. You bring them in vs storm because there is the option to play chalice on ZERO and stop all of their petals and LED's as well as the times you need to put it on 1 as you also have a sphere. Post board they are running Abrupt decay so relying too hard on chalice on 1 is not a great plan.

My feelings on Surgical are that people just need to stop cutting Tranquil Thicket and practice a bit more with the deck. Sure sometimes you are gonna loose to Surgical, but with a bit of patience you should learn to get into situations where you don't because you know how to leverage your Thickets. Also stop discarding Darkdepths to Mox diamonds when vs surgical decks and you will see your win % improve drastically. Be aware of what is in you graveyard.

Sib

[Djehuti]

Mox is Exploration 4-8 in the deck. The entire deck is built on the advantage gained through returning lands for the GY with Loam. This make Mox diamond's downside negligible.
In the games where you worry about Mox being a dead draw, you have effectively lost anyway as you are not Loaming your top three. Ie. you are at a stage where you have either lost your Loam engine (through careless play or great skill by your opp) or you are drawing in the vain hope you will hit that one out you need. Cutting Mox does not make it any more likely you will hit that 'out'. There will still be the same number of cards in your deck in this hypothetical situation.
The gains of having extra mana in the critical early turns that Mox Diamond gives you is much much much more important than 'what you might draw at some later unspecified point'

It makes green and red mana. By cutting Mox Diamond you are cutting mana sources from the deck. This deck does not have many coloured mana sources. 4 Burnwillows, 3-4 Fetches, 2 Taiga and 1 Forest is not much at all.

More specifically against Miracles you should leave Mox in for many reasons.
It gives you green under Bloodmoon if you havn't seen a fetch or your forest,
It produces mana if you have been hit with From the Ashes.
It produces mana through Back to Basics and Tsabo's Web (both seen out of Miracles boards this last SCG)
It colour fixes should you be splashing Abrupt decay or need to double Pfire Angel Tokens.
It is integral to the deck functioning properly.
It also gives their Wear//Tear 8 targets rather than just your 4 Explorations.
Miracles is a MU where many people bring in Sphere and Chalice. Mox helps us negate the disadvantage of Sphere and play a turn 1 chalice.

Against DNT you should keep it in as other than it being integral to the deck, you get to keep it around after Cataclysm and players might leave in Revokers to name it (this is bad for them)

Hope this helps/isn't too much of a rant

Sib
Never too much of a rant :) thanks for being so thorough sib

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[TheScrublord]

Today, I played in the Channel Fireball Legacy 1K (which ended up having so many players that the prize pool was upped to 2K) and was able to make it to Top 4 of the tournament before splitting prizes. I built my deck for the tournament with the intention to beat out Miracles and Death and Taxes, which have become 2 of the most popular decks in my meta. Decklist will be posted at the bottom.

Round 1 vs Omnitell (0-2)

Not happy about this first round. I know my opponent is on Omnitell, and he proceeds to do what his deck does on turn 3 both games without me being able to really interact. Kind of a poor start to the first round.

Round 2 vs Death and Taxes (2-1)

This is what I've been waiting for. With the printing of Recruiter of the Guard and Sanctum Prelate, I anticipated a LOT of Death and Taxes today (which there was). Game 1, I have a pretty decent hand, and am able to lock him out of the game with Tabernacle, multiple Mazes, and Punishing Fire/Grove. I lose game 2 to an unchecked Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. Game 3, I, again, get a solid lock on my opponent, leaving him with 5 Plains, all 3 equipment on the battlefield, no cards in hand, and no creatures to attack. We go to time before he realizes there's no real way for him to win.

Round 3 vs Esper Deathblade

This matchup went about as well as one would expect. Any time he would get me close to death, I would make a Marit Lage and gain another nice 20 life cushion until he ran out of StPs. Game 2, he makes the mistake of trying to FoW a Loam cast off of a Boseiju, and proceeds to concede.

Round 4 vs Death and Taxes (2-1)

Game 1, Vial and a lot of disruption, and I am unable to catch up and lose to Batterskull beats. Game 2, I keep a sketchy hand of 6 lands and Helm of Obedience, He stars off a little slower this time, with Mother of Runes, into Stoneforge Mystic, into Prelate on 2, to which I Kozilek's Return EOT, and cast Loam on my turn, prompting him to cast Rest in Peace. I play a 5th land and Helm him for 1. Game 3 is a grindfest, but with an Exploration and Loam, and my opponent with no way to answer my GY, he loses to Marit Lage.

Round 5 vs Grixis Delver (2-1)

I keep a slow hand, and lose to double Young Pyromancer, and timely Stifles and counterspells. Game 2, I am able to keep the board relatively clear, and make a Marit Lage before he can really recover. Game 3, Turn 1 Chalice on 1, Turn 2 Wasteland, Turn 3 Wasteland, Turn 4 Loam. Opponent concedes.

Round 6 vs RUG Lands (0-0-3)

I am paired against a friend, and instead of one of us knocking the other out, we agree to ID and try to win our last round of swiss.

Round 7 vs 4 Color Loam

Game 1, he gets a lock of Chalice on 1 and 2, and kills me with a 10/10 Knight of the Reliquary. Game 2, I play a fast Marit Lage without a way for him to answer, and steal the game. Game 3, he draws his only Forest in his deck, and I Ghost Quarter/Wasteland him out of the game.

Quarterfinals vs TES Storm (2-1)

Game 1, I know what my opponent is playing, and know that there's not really much I can do to interact with what he does, but I play it out to see more cards in his deck. He kills me on Turn 3. Game 2, I Gamble on turn 1 for Trinisphere, which he ends up Duressing, but draw another on a few turns later, while my opponent has a series of unfortunate draws, and basically does nothing for the rest of the game. Game 3 is a nail biter. At no point did I really feel ahead in the game. No Chalices, no Trinispheres. My opponent casts a LOT of cantrips, but continues to draw rather poorly (possibly due to over sideboarding). Then he starts to go off, leading with triple LED and probe. He sees my hand contains the Tabernacle that I left in to combat an Empty kill, which I think he was planning on going for, as his pace of play dramatically slows down as soon as he sees it. He Ad Nauseams into a rather poor hand, and is only able to Tendrils me down to 2. On my turn I Ghost Quarter and Wasteland the rest of the lands he has left in play, and Bojuka Bog his graveyard. It had turned out, my opponent had made a mistake when casting his last Brainstorm, which locked up the game for me.

Overall, I am very happy with my performance today. Of the 68 players who attended, there were more new players than I had expected (which does say something about the interest players who have not been playing for years have for Legacy). My tech choices today for DnT were great, and I feel like I would have had a fine time against Miracles, had I played against it all day. There were a few situations today where I wished the Tranquil Thickets were Horizon Canopies, but I don't think it made THAT much of a difference. Not once did I miss Rishadan Port.

Maindeck
2 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Riftstone Portal
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Dark Depths
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crop Rotation
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
4 Exploration
1 Molten Vortex
1 Seismic Assault

Sideboard
2 Tireless Tracker
3 Krosan Grip
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Boil
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dark Depths
2 Kozilek's Return

[Claymore]

He stars off a little slower this time, with Mother of Runes, into Stoneforge Mystic, into Prelate on 2, to which I Kozilek's Return EOT, and cast Loam on my turn, prompting him to cast Rest in Peace. I play a 5th land and Helm him for 1.

The dream.

[TheScrublord]

The dream.

The look on his face was definitely priceless. Worth the sideboard slot.

[squirrelfiend]

I got 3rd at a GPT hosted by Knight Ware Inc yesterday.

Here's the results: http://www.knight-ware.com/ccg/magic/tourney/11_13_2016legacy.html

My matches:
Round One: Miracles 2-1
Round Two: Miracles 2-1
Round Three: RW Burn 2-0
Round Four: D&T 2-1
Round Five: 4C Delver 2-0
Round Six: ID
Round Seven: ID

Entered top 8 at 2nd place with 5-0-2.

QF: Eldrazi 2-0
SF: 4C Loam 0-2

There's nothing to notable to point out about any of the matches. The list felt pretty great though I might convert to the 4 GQ maindeck moving forward.

[Mr Miagi]

Hello fellow Sourcerers.

Please excuse my ignorance if I didn't ready through the lat 10 or so pages when the idea of 4 GQ was introduced vs 4 ports, but did anybody try any ration between Ports and GQs? Currently I'm playing 1 GQ and 4 ports. Since my frequency of palying lands is maybe once every two-three motnhs I, unfortunetlly, don't have the mileage to asses whether there is any "optimal" mix between number of GQs/port. I'm thinking 3GQs/2 ports? Or is mixxing up these things totally dumb (and why, if so)?

[StefN]

Hello to all the awesome Lands players ;).

First of all, I really like the idea of Helm of Obedience in the SB. I had a little trouble to beat good D&T players lately and I will definitely try this tech, especially because Helm is also good in the Miracle matchup. So 1 SBslot for 2 of the most played decks in my area sounds like a good idea.

The second thing is the question about Ghost Quarter / Rishadan Port. Focus on 1 of these cards or play a split? I started to play this decks with obviously 4 Wastelands and 4 Ports and noticed pretty fast that as soon as our opponent plays Basics the strongest plan (Mana denial) besides the combo is not working anymore. So I started to play 1 GQ main. The more I played this single copy the more I loved it and I started pretty heavily to play my tutors on my single GQ......because the GQ was so strong I wanted to draw or dredge it more naturally and I cut 1 Port to play a second GQ. So for the last 2 month I play 4 Wasteland/3Ports/2GQ and I'm very happy with this split. On one hand I wouldn't cut the ports completely because It's extremely strong to slow our opponent down for 1 mana without sacrificing 1 Land (We don't always have Exploration/Manabond to play more lands each turn). On the other hand I personally wouldn't play 4 GQ because I also had games where the first 2-3 GQ was basically negated because my opponent could search his library for a basic land, and without Exploration this means we do basically nothing for a few turns.
So I think both cards, the Ports and GQ need a few slots in the deck.

Sorry for my bad english ;).

[Layalouhamesh]

Hello to all the awesome Lands players ;).

First of all, I really like the idea of Helm of Obedience in the SB. I had a little trouble to beat good D&T players lately and I will definitely try this tech, especially because Helm is also good in the Miracle matchup. So 1 SBslot for 2 of the most played decks in my area sounds like a good idea.

The second thing is the question about Ghost Quarter / Rishadan Port. Focus on 1 of these cards or play a split? I started to play this decks with obviously 4 Wastelands and 4 Ports and noticed pretty fast that as soon as our opponent plays Basics the strongest plan (Mana denial) besides the combo is not working anymore. So I started to play 1 GQ main. The more I played this single copy the more I loved it and I started pretty heavily to play my tutors on my single GQ......because the GQ was so strong I wanted to draw or dredge it more naturally and I cut 1 Port to play a second GQ. So for the last 2 month I play 4 Wasteland/3Ports/2GQ and I'm very happy with this split. On one hand I wouldn't cut the ports completely because It's extremely strong to slow our opponent down for 1 mana without sacrificing 1 Land (We don't always have Exploration/Manabond to play more lands each turn). On the other hand I personally wouldn't play 4 GQ because I also had games where the first 2-3 GQ was basically negated because my opponent could search his library for a basic land, and without Exploration this means we do basically nothing for a few turns.
So I think both cards, the Ports and GQ need a few slots in the deck.

Sorry for my bad english ;).

I agree. Just got back from a big tournament in France, where I tried 4 Wasteland + 3 GQ with no port. Clearly, 3 GQ was enough to ensure finding them easily and have a nice moment against some matchups. However, I often ended up with one or 2 mana missing to be able to play correctly, and ports would have helped in that case. I'm thinking of moving to 4 Wasteland + 4 port + 2 GQ, just don't know what to cut yet :)

[Dice_Box]

My current list is a 4,3,2 split for Waste, Port and Quarter. I like it.

[Chatto]

I think the RP vs QG comes down to your meta. Personally I like my Ports, but have tried four GQ. I don't dislike it, but just think a split as proposed by myself and others should be fine. Again, in a meta with decks relying on basic lands GQ doesn't feel that good. I'm on 4/3/2 as well, by the way.

[jhport12]

I personally am not sure that splitting is a good idea. 4-of gives you a benefit of consistency AND a clear game plan for how you will attack a manabase. I think that's important. I would recommend going the 4-of route, and just choosing what's best for your meta.

Against Miracles, Quarter is superior to Port because most Miracles players only have 5 white sources (2 being Plains). In a Game 1 where you don't maindeck (or draw) Boseiju, Ghost Quarter can help remove their white sources that could cast Terminus, Swords (and also shut off Entreat). Ghost Quarter is also fun when they have Top out and they really want to keep what is on top (for Counterbalance or whatever). They can either choose to get Strip Mine'd or lose their deck-stacking.

Against Delver, Shardless & Eldrazi decks with few to zero basics, Ghost Quarter becomes Strip Mine and can shut an opponent out completely. It also makes Tabernacle more effective.

Against Death & Taxes, it is often a wash. Ports don't do much when they often have Aether Vial. If they don't have Aether Vial, you might be able to eek out an edge with Ports, but realistically they are beating you down with Thalia and a Flickerwisp with plenty of white mana open for Swords.

Basically, the overall meta shifted just enough that for big tournaments Ghost Quarter became the better call. This could totally change in 3 months, but I think it's the right call now.

I myself have been experimenting with the idea of 4/4/4 (or 4/4/3). This makes the land control overwhelming, but requires losing a few cards (like a 3rd Maze, Bojuka/Boseiju/Karakas, 4th Depths, Riftstone Portal, or similar). I'm a little loath to do that because of how important some of those one-offs are.

Also, it's a little unclear which matchups I would be improving. I find a lot of matches where I don't gain land superiority due to lack of Loam or having my acceleration countered/destroyed. In moments like this, Port feels particularly unhelpful.

[heckler]

i play 4 ports in paper and 4 GQ on MTGO for cost concerns (shelling a grand on e-ports seems absurd to me). They honestly do more work than you would think. Many decks feature 3-4 basics and you can get a foothold early by taking out their nonbasics and assaulting their basics later on (many times players will fetch out their 3 basics and have nothing to search for). They also act as a wasteland to start wasteland into stage activation wars that we are all fond of or to take out truly problematic lands like cradle when you just can't find a wasteland. Most of the matchups where GQ is strictly worse than port, I don't find port really winning me the game too often; if you run spheres in the board then port can do a lot of work if your opponent can't seem to topdeck some lands.

But what I like the most is the game it brings vs the miracles and delver matchups. they are two of the most common decks and GQ is far more valuable than port. You can manage to quarter/waste out all white sources from miracles and sometimes lock them out of their win conditions/protection.

[Ingo]

Most of the matchups where GQ is strictly worse than port, I don't find port really winning me the game too often; if you run spheres in the board then port can do a lot of work if your opponent can't seem to topdeck some lands.

This is the biggest concern I have with Ghostquarter, as port and spheres are a great team against most of our bad combomatchups. But combo is on the decline where I play (apart from BR Reanimator, but as this preys on other combodecks, it probably stimulated the fallback of other combo).

[Chatto]

@ heckler and jhport: I've been over this many times myself, even posted on the subject at Reddit (https://m.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/5bjx4o/lands_question_why_no_more_rishadan_port/), and while I don't disagree with your thinking, I just haven't decided really :smile:

There are days when I like the split better than 4 GQ, or vice versa. Perhaps I should just try it, again.

[Dice_Box]

It will always be a meta thing. It's a kind of pre sideboarding. I can't make the total switch thanks to the amount of Nic Fit and DnT in my meta. I think that's something to keep in mind when looking at this idea. It will not work for everyone. It may become something personal to each players needs.

[Tutor]

Here is a list from Hori Masataka - KMC 66th. Sideboard will change something but I like this 4 Port and 1 Ghost. My meta is full of DnT and Miracles.
Sylvan Library sounds interesting like SB Nissa Worldwaker, but might change to Nissa Vital force.
3 dark depths are good, will test more to see if really needs 4th.
Horizon Canopy is better than Tranquil Thicket?

4 Exploration
4 Gamble
4 Crop Rotation
3 Punishing Fire
4 Life from the Loam
1 Manabond
1 Sylvan Library
1 Molten Vortex
4 Mox Diamond
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Rishadan Port
3 Dark Depths
3 Maze of Ith
2 Taiga
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest

Sideboard
1 Punishing Fire
3 Krosan Grip
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Karakas
1 Choke

ty

[Medea_]

Hey folks,

I'm a legacy veteran (primarily D&T), but I'm picking up Lands for a couple of weeks for a little, proxy-based Legacy league (8 person) and was looking for some sideboarding advice. I frankly am quite unsure about what I'm doing, and I spent about an hour trying to write myself a little guide. I'm not sure to what extent I should be cutting extra lands vs spells, I'm not sure which pieces of the engine can be trimmed, and I'm not sure to what extent I should be trimming my own one drops when bringing in Chalice. Decklists were submitted for this league, so I have full information about what hate my opponent will have. Here's my list:

Lands (34)
1 Forest
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Maze of Ith
2 Taiga
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Dark Depths

Spells (26)
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
2 Molten Vortex
4 Crop Rotation
3 Punishing Fire
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
1 Manabond

Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Primeval Titan
1 Bane of Progress
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Krosan Grip


Any sideboarding advice you all have would be really appreciated. Here are my current plans:

Vs Enchantress (Rest in Peace)
-1 Glacial Chasm, -3 Maze of Ith, -1 Karakas, -3 Punishing Fire
+4 Krosan Grip, +1 Bane of Progress, +3 Tireless Tracker

Vs MUD (2 copies, both Leyline/Helm and Ensnaring Bridge)
-3 Punishing Fire, -1 Karakas, -1 Mana Bond, -1 Glacial Chasm, -1 Tabernacle, -2 Molten Vortex
+4 Krosan Grip, +1 Bane of Progress, +3 Tireless Tracker, +1 Primeval Titan

Vs Food Chain (Tsabo's Web x2, Surgical Extraction, Nihil Spellbomb)
-1 Mana Bond, -1 Glacial Chasm, -2 Molten Vortex
+4 Krosan Grip

Vs Belcher
-1 Karakas, -3 Maze of Ith, -3 Punishing Fire, -2 Ghost Quarter
+4 Chalice of the Void, +1 Bojuka Bog, +4 Krosan Grip

Vs UR Bedlam Reveler Delver (2x Blood Moon, Echoing Truth, Pithing Needle, Submerge)
-1 Karakas, -1 Manabond, -2 Crop Rotation, -2 Ghost Quarter, -1 Glacial Chasm
+4 Chalice of the Void, +3 Krosan Grip

Vs Sneak and Show (3x Blood Moon, 1x Surgical Extraction)
-1 Glacial Chasm, -3 Punishing Fire, -2 Molten Vortex, -2 Ghost Quarter
+4 Chalice of the Void, +4 Krosan Grip

[Ingo]

Hey folks,

I'm a legacy veteran (primarily D&T), but I'm picking up Lands for a couple of weeks for a little, proxy-based Legacy league (8 person) and was looking for some sideboarding advice. I frankly am quite unsure about what I'm doing, and I spent about an hour trying to write myself a little guide. I'm not sure to what extent I should be cutting extra lands vs spells, I'm not sure which pieces of the engine can be trimmed, and I'm not sure to what extent I should be trimming my own one drops when bringing in Chalice. Decklists were submitted for this league, so I have full information about what hate my opponent will have.

Hi Medea, welcome to Pendrell University ;)

I think you'll face an unusual amount of gravehate in 3 decks with Leyline/RIP/Helm combo. But at least you've got Bane of Progress, a card I've never seen in a sideboard before, but very good against MUD and Enchantress.

Enchantress: a version with maindeck RIP's is hard. You'll deft'ly lose the long game game as you'll hardly interfere with his gameplan, while RIP shuts down your grinding asap. I'd go for a fast combo game1, and additionally board in Primetime game2 and 3 (cut manavond, as you've boarded in too many cards to abuse it). Ghostquarter his lands with enchantments on them. BoP is bonkers ofcourse, a card to gamble for.

MUD: deny his lands (wasteland / GQ) but also Metalworker, so keep in Punishing Fire and Molten Vortex. Board out 3 mazes and 1/2 loams (4 leyline is heavy on the hate, and you've boarded 3 Trackers / 1 Primetime to compensate) instead.

Food Chain: I usually try to combo fast here, as their foodchain/griffin messes up our manadenial and creature removal plan.

Belcher: your best card is crop rotation for Tabernacle or Chasm (or a combopiece), so be careful with chalice on 1. They also don't have that many 1cc spells. Chalice on 0 stops petal and LED.

Reveler Delver: I never board in chalices against delver as it hinders our gameplan as well, but I know some people do.

Sneak Show is really hard. Chalice doesn't do a lot (8 cards in brainstorm/ponder, but we also have 4 crops/gamble). You can try race Sneakshow as you can drop a land/combopiece on their show and tell and create a token to attack on their next turn. Karakas does some work, but only versus S&T on Emrakul. Griselbrand will still draw him 7/14 cards, and they have a sneaky way of activating Sneak Attack twice with one red mana, during our EOT and in their turn. Board in Primetime, if you're lucky you'll S&T it into play and get Karakas + missing combopiece.

As for Chalice and boarding out 1-drops: I only board in Chalice versus combo and Miracles. Against combo you should bet on 2 horses, a possible chalice on 0/1 and croprotating/gambling for combopieces. Against Miracles, I usually board out some gambles/croprotations (there's no Boseiju to croprotate for in this list).

Just my 2 cents, good luck, and let us know the results!

EDIT: against fair decks where comboing fast isn't your plan, you can always board out the 4th Depths, especially if you suspect Surgical extraction. Too many copies of Dark Depths are sometimes hard to keep safe.

[heckler]

It will always be a meta thing. It's a kind of pre sideboarding. I can't make the total switch thanks to the amount of Nic Fit and DnT in my meta. I think that's something to keep in mind when looking at this idea. It will not work for everyone. It may become something personal to each players needs.

Were you really porting the nic fit deck anyway? They often have more lands in play than you do until turns 6+.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Prolly not but they have so many basics that GQ is pretty much worse in that MU in most respects, and is largely a tempo loss unless they power out all of their basics (which is probably not a good thing for us regardless if your on GQ or Port)

[jvLin]

Question:

I understand that running two manabonds or two molten vortexes is redundant, as you never want to draw two copies of either of those cards in your opening hand (or ever). But can't the same be said of versions of the deck that run one manabond and one molten vortex? Drawing both in your opening hand is terrible, since they essentially don't play well together.

[Ingo]

Question:

I understand that running two manabonds or two molten vortexes is redundant, as you never want to draw two copies of either of those cards in your opening hand (or ever).

This is not the main reason why there's usually one Manabond or Vortex maindecked, because we also only need one Loam or one Punishing Fire, but we still run up to four copies of those. So you could run multiple manabond (ancient Lands-decks ran 4, not that long ago 2 copies was standard). Same about Vortex, David Long runs 3 copies.

It's more about the ideal mix you want. Manabond is the most explosive accelerant, but usually boarded out because you usually want to sandbag counterhate (KGrip or Decay), and reduce postboard reliance on the graveyard. Maindecking multiple copies of a card that's usually boarded out game 2 and 3, just takes too many slots in the 75.
With Vortex, it's more about the mix you want with Punishing Fire. Usually Fires are played because you can dredge into them, are semi-counter/decayproof and because Grove/Fire is a loam-independant engine. But Vortex is faster, an additional killcon and an excellent T1 play if you have loam, and since you can gamble for Fires, it makes sence to play multiple copies of the card you can't reliably gamble for.

[Sibelius]

Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Primeval Titan
1 Bane of Progress
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Krosan Grip


Any sideboarding advice you all have would be really appreciated. Here are my current plans:

Vs Enchantress (Rest in Peace)
-1 Glacial Chasm, -3 Maze of Ith, -1 Karakas, -3 Punishing Fire
+4 Krosan Grip, +1 Bane of Progress, +3 Tireless Tracker

Vs MUD (2 copies, both Leyline/Helm and Ensnaring Bridge)
-3 Punishing Fire, -1 Karakas, -1 Mana Bond, -1 Glacial Chasm, -1 Tabernacle, -2 Molten Vortex
+4 Krosan Grip, +1 Bane of Progress, +3 Tireless Tracker, +1 Primeval Titan

Vs Food Chain (Tsabo's Web x2, Surgical Extraction, Nihil Spellbomb)
-1 Mana Bond, -1 Glacial Chasm, -2 Molten Vortex
+4 Krosan Grip

Vs Belcher
-1 Karakas, -3 Maze of Ith, -3 Punishing Fire, -2 Ghost Quarter
+4 Chalice of the Void, +1 Bojuka Bog, +4 Krosan Grip

Vs UR Bedlam Reveler Delver (2x Blood Moon, Echoing Truth, Pithing Needle, Submerge)
-1 Karakas, -1 Manabond, -2 Crop Rotation, -2 Ghost Quarter, -1 Glacial Chasm
+4 Chalice of the Void, +3 Krosan Grip

Vs Sneak and Show (3x Blood Moon, 1x Surgical Extraction)
-1 Glacial Chasm, -3 Punishing Fire, -2 Molten Vortex, -2 Ghost Quarter
+4 Chalice of the Void, +4 Krosan Grip

I know this doesn't help now but against that meta you really really really needed Sphere of Resistance. It is great against Enchantress, SNS, Belcher, UR Delver and FoodChain. Just straight up copying Daryl Ayers build is not a great plan. His deck is built for miracles primarily and I would not play his version against an open field.

As is Your board plans look ok. I would think about playing Chalice against Enchantress. That is a really rough mu and chalice stops so much of what they are doing, Elephant Grass and their Ramp. If you can stop those spells and use ports to lock them down then you should be fine. (you don't have ports..... this is gonna be rough.) Ok so try to run them out of basics with GQ, Port really helps stop them get to enough mana. Oddly enough you want to mana screw them post board. Karakas needs to stay in if they have Emrakul, You may get a turn to crop for it and then crack back for the win.

Vs SNS I like what you are doing but I would keep in a molten vortex so you have an out to blood moon if you are going long. You can cut Tabernacle unless there are young pyromancer stuff in his board.

Dont bring in grip vs Belcher, You are probably not going to use it. Tracker might be better if you need to block some goblins. I wouldn't cut the ghost quarters. Without Sphere your plan is Chalice on 0 and 1 and a fast Token, Grip doesnt make this happen.

As general advice you probably need to remove Manabond when you bring in any cards like Chalice, Grip or Tracker. You are never gonna be activating manabond as your sb cards are far far too important to bin.

Other than that good luck!

Sib

[Ingo]

His deck is built for miracles primarily and I would not play his version against an open field.


I agree with the first part of your sentence, but not with the second though. Non-favorable combo (non-elves/infect/TurboDepths) is on the decline, at least in my meta, but also when looking at the top 32 decklists of SCG Baltimore.
The first non-favorable combolist is B/R Reanimator on the 18th place , than Grixis Painter (19 - sphere isn't really good here) and Storm (21). Besides another Reanimator, there were no other non-favorable combomatchups in the top32, and chalice still has some game against them. There also was one copy of Enchantress, against which spheres are good, but chalice as well. On the other hand, there were 5 copies of Miracles in the top 32.

So while spheres (and port) are overall better against unfavorable matchups, I feel like these matchups aren’t that represented anymore when compared to the presence of Miracles. So if the Baltimore Top8 is a representation of an open field (which it isn’t, but what else do we have to compare), I think chalices and Qhost Quarter are the better choice now. I’m not sure which tournament Medea’s playing, and I agree that spheres are better there, but he probably didn't get to construct his deck, or know his matchups (which are a bit fringe) in advance.

I might be wrong though, and I'm sure open for a different view.

[Chatto]

Again, it's meta-dependant, at least that's how I view this topic:

GQ vs Port
SoR vs CotV

Also, choosing GQ over Port can imply choosing CotV over SoR as a better option.

[Dice_Box]

A little bit of off topic fun, but what's the biggest blow out you have ever had?

I was playing against Landstill, made Emmy and attacked. Got hit with a Deflecting Palm, so I activated Maze only to meet Stifle. Your can't plan shit like that. Was such a sweet game.

[Ciubulu]

A japanese player replaced the grips with spheres and this:
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161121/26f828aaddbb5140afcd65ad2a567085.png

No split second but able to deal with everything, even something unexpected...what do you think about it?

[Djehuti]

Wouldnt call it a grip replacement but I like it since you can copy other peoples permanents with stage. They get a tree and you get their best creature/planeswalker.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[non-inflammable]

Wouldnt call it a grip replacement but I like it since you can copy other peoples permanents with stage. They get a tree and you get their best creature/planeswalker.

and the permanent you enchanted with song of the dryads could be wasteland'ed or ghost quarter'ed or tapped with port.

weird, first time i've seen or heard of this card.

[Chatto]

You still need a G-source, and it doesn't really take care of the nasty enchantments/ artifacts. I think not taking care of an enchantment like Blood Moon or an artifact like E-Bridge is my biggest concern: nice Forest, dude, you still can't win.

[Ingo]

There's probably some confusion about Song of the Dryads, as the enchanted permanent loses all abilities or ruletext it previously had. For example, enchanting Blood Moon would remove the bloodmooneffect, as Blood Moon would become nothing more than a colorless Forest Land.
You could copy this permanent-that-has-become-a-forest with Thespian's Stage, but as it's now just a forest, Thespian's Stage also would just be a forest.

EDIT: just did a quick search how this would work against Show and Tell. Unfortunately, an aura cannot enchant a permanent that comes into play at the same moment ...

[Chatto]

@ Ingo: Thanks for the clarification. Still, why would you want this over K-Grip?

[Ciubulu]

It is more versatile although we lost istant speed, split second and the ability of cannot be countered with boseiju that is relevant vs miracles. I would try a couple in my sb...

[.Ix]

Has anyone else tried the Crucible of Worlds in the sideboard? I've blown people up with it, but not from a position where I was far behind. It seems win more, but I haven't seen it in my hands nearly enough. I would love some info from anyone else who's tried it.

[Claymore]

There's probably some confusion about Song of the Dryads, as the enchanted permanent loses all abilities or ruletext it previously had. For example, enchanting Blood Moon would remove the bloodmooneffect, as Blood Moon would become nothing more than a colorless Forest Land.
You could copy this permanent-that-has-become-a-forest with Thespian's Stage, but as it's now just a forest, Thespian's Stage also would just be a forest.

EDIT: just did a quick search how this would work against Show and Tell. Unfortunately, an aura cannot enchant a permanent that comes into play at the same moment ...


The copy portion of this is incorrect. Song allows the permanent to be targeted by Thespian's Stage, since it is a land, so Stage will copy all of the printed text on the permanent. After that, the only thing changing the permanent into a forest is Song, and since Song isn't enchanting Thespian's Stage, Stage will not have that overwrite effect on it.

The end result is that Stage will turn into whatever permanent you copied and retain the Stage ability.

You can copy Song'd Planeswalkers with Stage, but that would just instantly kill the Stage since it didn't enter the battlefield with loyalty counters.

This is the same interaction that the Cloudpost thread has covered before (but with Vesuva).

The rest of the post, such as neutralizing Blood Moon and Ensnaring Bridge, is correct. They end up with just a simple Non-basic Forest.

[Ingo]

The copy portion of this is incorrect. Song allows the permanent to be targeted by Thespian's Stage, since it is a land, so Stage will copy all of the printed text on the permanent. After that, the only thing changing the permanent into a forest is Song, and since Song isn't enchanting Thespian's Stage, Stage will not have that overwrite effect on it.


Thanks for the correction, I didn't know this. Pretty interesting.

[U_mage]

Still, why would you want this over K-Grip?

Answers Prelate?

[StefN]

I just looked up some of the latest Lands lists at TCDecks and I noticed that maybe something went wrong with the editing of Hori Masatakas list. I don't think that he played Song of the Dryads instead of the Krosan Grips, but that he played a 1/3 SotD/KG split. Would be interesting how satisfied he was with his choice. Sounds definitely interesting for me to play the SotD as a 1of in the SB for situations where you could gamble for it aso.

[Chatto]

Answers Prelate?

Of course, but so does Molten Vortex or Seismic Assault, and they can be used more than once.

[chaosjace]

I'm about to play in my first event with tireless tracker SB. Any tips or advise for playing and sideboarding tracker?
Thanks in advance!

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

D&T cannot revoker it

[Dice_Box]

In my view, a cute interaction does not take priority over Split Second.

[Ciubulu]

@chaosjace use them in every grindy mu, you will never regret.
@dice_box it has some fun interactions (I won a match copying my opponent's crucible and another one against br reanimator copying his griselbrand) but the real thing is that it can deal with every problematic permanent and not only enchantment and/or artifacts

[Crimhead]

@dice_box it has some fun interactions (I won a match copying my opponent's crucible and another one against br reanimator copying his griselbrand) but the real thing is that it can deal with every problematic permanent and not only enchantment and/or artifactsThis hadn't occurred to me, but I guess SotD doesn't affect the copyable characteristics of the enchanted permanent, as those are based on not printed values and abilities. Holy crap that sounds like fun!

[amjw]

What is lands like versus infect? i was considering buying into magic again and this deck looks awesome fun to play with.

[Crimhead]

What is lands like versus infect? i was considering buying into magic again and this deck looks awesome fun to play with.
It's much harder than most other tempo decks (aka, Delver decks) becuase they are very fast. Use your removal on thier end step so if they respond with Vines at least they lose a pump spell.

Chalice and Shpere are pretty good. If you run Boseiju, leave it in (or bring it in) as a countered Punishing Fire can cost you the game (also the life loss is negligible).

Edit: yes, Lands.dec is the most fun you will ever have playing MTG. :p

[GoldenCid]

GlaD TO SEE lands again as DTB. Wish sometime RUG were there.

[.Ix]

I went 5-4 in GP Chiba with RGB.

R1 merfolk 2-1
R2 shardless 2-1
R3 burn L 0-2
R4 Belcher 2-1
R5 grix delver 2-0
R6 aluren L 0-2
R7 Ur delver 2-0
R8 omni L 0-2
R9 omni L 0-2

I'm so salty about the two straight Omnitell decks keeping me out of day 2! Apparently people still play it in Japan! Didn't even face one Eldrazi or Miracles all day.

[GoldenCid]

I w
R3 burn L 0-2
.

Price of progress did it?

[.Ix]

Had marit out, he had Bridge. I Gamble for Decay, of course I lost the Decay!

[GoldenCid]

Had marit out, he had Bridge. I Gamble for Decay, of course I lost the Decay!

Bridge in burn? Wow, these times are so different from the past. I consider blood moon more probable

[.Ix]

There were tons of bridges all over the place. I made Top 4 of the Vintage side event today playing Oath! Salt level is pretty much zero right now!

[Ciubulu]

Bridge is very popular right now because there is a ton of gb turbo depths and br reanimators.

[Chatto]

Bridge in burn? Wow, these times are so different from the past. I consider blood moon more probable

Bridge has been a solid SB-slot for Burn for a long time.

[Alexeezay]

I finished 2nd place at this weekend's MKM Series Prague :)

Round 1: 1-2 Maverick LOSS
Round 2: 2-0 Bye (wtf) WIN
Round 3: 2-1 SneakShow+Omni WIN
Round 4: 2-0 Elves WIN
Round 5: 2-1 SneakShow+Omni WIN
Round 6: 2-1 Jund WIN
Round 7: 2-1 BR Reanimator WIN
Round 8: 2-1 ANT Storm WIN
Round 9: I.D.
8-1-1, 7th:
Quarters: 2-1 WUBG DelverBladeAngler homebrew,wtf? WIN
Semis: 2-0 Dredge (LED) WIN
Finals: 0-2 Miracles LOSS
2nd place with 10-2-1

My list:
Alexander Beiersdorfer – Lands
Main Deck
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4 Crop Rotation
3 Dark Depths
4 Exploration
1 Forest
4 Gamble
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Life from the Loam
1 Manabond
3 Maze of Ith
4 Mox Diamond
3 Punishing Fire
1 Seismic Assault
4 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Karakas
4 Krosan Grip
1 Seismic Assault
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tireless Tracker

All in all, the list was really good. Seismic Assault won me games I couldn't win otherwise. I initially brought it for Death & Taxes though. Bojuka Bog maindeck crushed Reanimator, Dredge and had some use against ANT. Ghost Quarter was just awesome the whole time, killing all the basics from Jund, Maverick, ANT, Show&Tell & Elves. I would have liked to see how this setup works for Miracles and Death&Taxes, because in the one Miracles match in the finals I simply got super crushed (I also mulliganed to 5 g1), so there's that. Surgical Extraction is everywhere! I will play Crucible of Worlds in the future (in place of 4th Grip or Chalice). Sphere is definitely better than more Chalices in my eyes for matchups like Elves, Aluren, Food Chain (yes,lol), Show & Tell, Dredge, Reanimator (you want to play your Crop Rotations). Board Tireless Tracker against Show&Tell, it was great! :)

[Chatto]

Congrats! I saw the result on MKM. Sidenote: nice tattoos :-)

[Ciubulu]

Cadei is a master at playing miracles and you were very unlucky that's a bad combination but congrats for your result!

[chaosjace]

Had a terrible small tournament.
Went 0-3 then dropped, made a lot of changes to my deck and sideboard accordingly.
1 Karakas
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Maze of Ith
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Verdant Catacomb
4 Crop Rotation
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
4 Punishing Fire
4 Exploration
1 Manabond
1 Molten Vortex
4 Mox Diamond



My list was pretty stock with a molten vortex added for a 61st card.
Sideboard was
4x Tireless Tracker (drew me two cards in 3 matches)
4x Sphere of resistance (never played)
4x Krosan Grip (did it's job)
3x Trinisphere (never played)

Round 1 against Shardless Control
Game 1 I win the roll, I wasteland a few turns then make a quick token, he had a lot of land though. Game 2 i make another quick token, which eats a vapor snag, he locks the game down from there with back to basics. Game 3 is a repeat of game 2, had good luck with natural combo hands this night though.

Round 2 Big Red Stompy? (Combustion Gearhulk)
Game 1, Win the roll, spew most of my hand on turn 1, his turn one is city, pitch spirit guide bloodmoon, few turns later gearhulk came down. Game 2 I spew my hand again with a mox diamond and K grip in hand. his turn 1 is city, lotus petal, blood moon, which eats K-grip, his turn 2 is tap mountain, pitch two spirit guides, magus of the moon, his ping damage gets there before i draw an answer.

Round 3 against Stoneblade control.
Game 1 I make a quick token and win. Game 2 i get ANOTHER fast lage, which eats a swords, he MDs rest in peace apparently and kills me with a Jace ult. Game 3 I get ANOTHER FAST LAGE, these draws were nuts tonight. Eats a swords. Rip comes down, I lost 2 depths that round, gambled for the 3rd depth with 3 cards in hands (it's called gamble right?) it gets discarded, crop rotation get's countered. and lose.


Now my SB has more enchantment hate. K-grip wasn't enough, but all of my problems were in the form of land and graveyard hate.

[Ingo]

I finished 2nd place at this weekend's MKM Series Prague :)


Nicely done Alexander!
A question regarding your list, why Seismic Assault over Molten Vortex?

@ Chaosjace: versus maindecked Bloodmoons / RIP (some sort of Helm-RIP deck?), you shouldn't feel bad about it. I wouldn't let it guide the sideboarding much, as those decks are fringe.

[U_mage]

Are people bringing in TT in the mirror? It seems like a decent approach since your opponent will be trying to bog your yard

[Crimhead]

Are people bringing in TT in the mirror? It seems like a decent approach since your opponent will be trying to bog your yard
I would bring it in.

I haven't played much since the summer - and since then apparently Lands has become a more popular deck in my local meta. I'd be interested to hear thoughts on how TT affects the mirror, as well as the pseudo-mirror (RG vs RUG) if anybody cares to share their insight.

[Layalouhamesh]

Are people bringing in TT in the mirror? It seems like a decent approach since your opponent will be trying to bog your yard

I also do. They make a perfect kill since the game is mostly a cold war, both waiting for the right moment to combo out. BTW, I also side out all depths, so TT becomes #1 plan.

[rlesko]

Why does Lossett scoop here? Lossett just cast brainstorm via his snapcaster mage and in response daryl casts punishing fire, presumably targetting joe (redirect jace). Promptly, there is a concession.

http://i.imgur.com/Kin5LNg.png

Just read about 10 pages back and dont really see a real clear answer on thicket vs Canopy. I can see how the interaction between manabond and thicket is unfavorable. Though, to be fair, situations can be dreamed up for both. I think in general thicket is a better card if you're trying to play around surgical extraction because canopy can be interrupted by wasteland and blood moon. Interested in hearing some more experienced lands player thoughts on this.

For people running chalice lists, which 1 drops are you primarily cutting? Seems criminal to cut exploration. Crop rotation and gamble doesn't seem so clear- I've had little experience with chalice in my sideboard. From what I understand, it is not necessarily something to windmill slam on turn 1 but really just try to safely land for surgical extraction protection? Speaking of which, that does seem like the worst piece of sideboard hate for us, though it should be expected and can hopefully be played around games 2/3.

[Medea_]

I posted a few pages back, but I ran this list through a local legacy league:

Lands (34)
1 Forest
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Maze of Ith
2 Taiga
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Dark Depths

Spells (26)
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
2 Molten Vortex
4 Crop Rotation
3 Punishing Fire
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
1 Manabond

Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Primeval Titan
1 Bane of Progress
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Krosan Grip

The list was based on Daryl Ayer's list, tweaking a couple of cards based on what I guessed people would be on. I didn't expect D&T or Miracles, so I trimmed the Seismic Assault, and I expected a handful of slow, odd-permanent based decks, so Primeval Titan and Bane of Progress got the nod (though I wouldn't actually play them in an event that mattered).


Results:
2-0 vs Belcher
2-0 vs UR Bedlam Reveler Delver
2-1 vs Enchantress
2-0 vs Sneak and Show
2-1 vs MUD/Eldrazi hybrid
0-2 vs MUD/Eldrazi hybrid
0-2 vs Food Chain

This was my first time playing Lands in an event, though I've played games with it previously for playtesting. The deck seems extremely powerful and was surprisingly good at wiggling its way out of odd spots. I think I probably could have mulliganed more aggressively against MUD in the round I lost. It was my first round on the deck I was unsure how well the deck would perform on five cards and thus kept mediocre six card hands. The Food Chain matchup felt pretty hopeless, but all of the other matchups seemed pretty good.

Horizon Canopy was garbage, and I regretted not playing a Tranquil Thicket over it. I know there's the theoretical line of Crop Rotating for it to play around a Surgical on Loam, but Canopy was so mana intensive given everything else that I wanted to be doing that I think I only drew one card off it in seven rounds.

Ghost Quarter was amazing, and I can't imagine playing Port over it now that I've played this version. I repeatedly took my opponent off all their relevant mana sources, including taking my Sneak and Show opponent off red mana to activate their Sneak Attack; this forced them to get up to eight cards to discard an Emrakul to put red sources back in their deck.

[Ingo]

I repeatedly took my opponent off all their relevant mana sources, including taking my Sneak and Show opponent off red mana to activate their Sneak Attack; this forced them to get up to eight cards to discard an Emrakul to put red sources back in their deck.

Sounds like you had fun :)

It's a rough matchup though, mind if you write down how it went?

[Medea_]

@Ingo

The games were surprisingly interesting. The sequencing and hands are approximate; I didn't take detailed notes like I usually do for D&T, but capture the gist of the games.

I kept a seven card opener with the possibility of a turn three combo off Mox Diamond, and some selection with Crop Rotation and Gamble. My opponent ends up fetching for a Volcanic Island and passing. Since he doesn't play any cantrips, I take this as a very bad sign that he is likely going to Show and Tell on his turn two. I decided that I probably need to play defensively instead of trying to race.

My opponent plays Ancient Tomb into Show and Tell for Gbrand and draws 14 cards (Life total =3). It seemed like he needed one more petal to also produce Emrakul based on what I saw of his hand later, hence why he was willing to draw the additional seven. He discards a bunch of cards. I maze his Gbrand the following turn, and he Show and Tells for Emrakul (Life total= one). At this point, my Karakas comes in and returns Emrakul. I Punishing Fire him on my turn, and my opponent realizes that since he is at one life, he cannot Force it without dying. Oops.

My opener in game 2 is really awkward: Chalice, Mox Diamond, Gamble, Crop Rotation, three lands. I can go for the turn one Chalice, but it would likely hurt me just as much, if not more than my opponent. I keep it, rationalizing that my opponent is likely to just Force it anyway. If that's the case, I'm set up for a quick combo kill. Unfortunately, my Chalice does indeed resolve, and we both just kind of flop around and do nothing for two turns.

He taps out for a Sneak attack with Mountain, Volc, and Ancient Tomb in play. I have a Wasteland, Karakas, and Maze of Ith between my hand and board, so I'm feeling pretty safe. I Wasteland his Volc and pass the turn. He plays another Volc and produces both Gbrand and then Emrakul after drawing a bunch of cards. I bounce the Emrakul, and I think I take a hit from this Gbrand. He ends up discarding/drawing all of his basics during his turn. I rip a Ghost Quarter and get another red source. He produces Gbrand and Emrakul again. I bounce the Emrakul again.

At some point in this process, I get a Maze of Ith in play to stop future Gbrand attacks, so my opponent is on Emrakul or bust. I try to Loam back Waste, Waste, GQ, which ate a Force. It's at this point my opponent realizes he does not have another red-producing land in his deck, so he discards the Emrakul to get the lands back in there. Unfortunately, this gave me enough time to assemble my own combo.

[Claymore]

Thanks for the write up.


He taps out for a Sneak attack with Mountain, Volc, and Ancient Tomb in play. I have a Wasteland, Karakas, and Maze of Ith between my hand and board, so I'm feeling pretty safe. I Wasteland his Volc and pass the turn. He plays another Volc and produces both Gbrand and then Emrakul after drawing a bunch of cards. I bounce the Emrakul, and I think I take a hit from this Gbrand. He ends up discarding/drawing all of his basics during his turn. I rip a Ghost Quarter and get another red source. He produces Gbrand and Emrakul again. I bounce the Emrakul again.


Seems like after he saw the first Karakas trick, he should've just Sneaked in Emrakul, have it bounced before attacks, then Sneaked Emrakul again to wipe your board.

Good to play to your outs regardless.

[Medea_]

Thanks for the write up.



Seems like after he saw the first Karakas trick, he should've just Sneaked in Emrakul, have it bounced before attacks, then Sneaked Emrakul again to wipe your board.

Good to play to your outs regardless.

Oh, yeah, I was absolutely dead to a more experienced pilot. Even worse than that would be my end step Sneak, with double activation up on his turn.

[heckler]

when I told my regular sneak attack opponent that if I had priority to karakas, he had priority to sneak again his eyes went wide with the realization. maybe I should have kept my mouth shut, but being a judge, I feel that I shouldn't have not told him afterwards.

[Medea_]

when I told my regular sneak attack opponent that if I had priority to karakas, he had priority to sneak again his eyes went wide with the realization. maybe I should have kept my mouth shut, but being a judge, I feel that I shouldn't have not told him afterwards.

I too walk the judge/competitive player line. I feel like it's best to answer the questions your opponent has during the match, but don't expand on the answers. You don't need to coach them. After the match, tell them any additional thoughts you had or rules info they should know. Especially if it's one of your local players, you'll make your metagame stronger by having more experienced players to play against.

[Ingo]

My opener in game 2 is really awkward: Chalice, Mox Diamond, Gamble, Crop Rotation, three lands. I can go for the turn one Chalice, but it would likely hurt me just as much, if not more than my opponent. I keep it, rationalizing that my opponent is likely to just Force it anyway. If that's the case, I'm set up for a quick combo kill. Unfortunately, my Chalice does indeed resolve, and we both just kind of flop around and do nothing for two turns.

Chalices are good against both Miracles and stormdecks, but not very good against S&T as it only blocks some cantrips but no keymechanics. What you could have done here, is play a land and mox, and croprotate a land away for Thespian's Stage or Karakas. You'd still have 2 mana available to cast the T1 chalice then.

[heckler]

I too walk the judge/competitive player line. I feel like it's best to answer the questions your opponent has during the match, but don't expand on the answers. You don't need to coach them. After the match, tell them any additional thoughts you had or rules info they should know. Especially if it's one of your local players, you'll make your metagame stronger by having more experienced players to play against.

It was after the match. I felt it was information he should have. During games I simply answer questions or implore the opponent to call another judge for answers.

[.Ix]

I wrote a short report about Grand Prix Chiba. This was the list I played:

// Lands
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
2 Maze of Ith
3 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs

// Spells
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
3 Molten Vortex
4 Mox Diamond
1 Sylvan Scrying


// Sideboard
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 4 Tireless Tracker
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge

Here's a short rundown of my matches:

R1 Merfolk 2-1

Game 1 I Marit Lage after I destroy his second land. Win.
Game 2 I lost soon after he Echoing Truths my Marit Lage.
Game 3 He kept nonbasic into Vial. I won.

1-0

R2 Shardless 2-1

G1 He played swamp, I played defensively thinking he could be on BR Reanimator. He played bayou and Goyf and I killed him from there.
G2 Two goyfs beat me down quickly without any mana denial from me.
G3 Goyf, strix, and Shardless were beating me down, I needed to kill the Strix before I could attack with my Marit Lage, so I just kept the lands in play without cracking them. He attacked with the Strix anyway, so I made the 20/20. Then I topdecked a Decay. Heh.

2-0

R3 Burn 0-2

G1 I kept a hand that would have been good against fair decks. He wasn't playing one.
G2 I had Marit Lage, he had Ensnaring Bridge. I gambled for decay, he rolled the decay and I lost.

2-1

R4 Belcher 2-1

G1 He turn 1 Empties for 14. I crop rotate for Tabernacle and find Marit Lage.
G2 I mull deep for anything at all. I think I keep a chalice and sphere hand. He Empties T1 for 12. I die.
G3 I keep a Crop Rotate hand again. He keeps on the play, and passes the turn. I play a land and pass. He draws, passes again. I play another land and a Mox, then pass. He draws and belches me thinking he won the game. I rotate for Chasm. He stacks 4 LEDs on top of his library. I keep paying life to my Chasm, but right before the turn where I would die to chasm, I Grip the Belcher, then rotate the Chasm for Stage. Marit Lage takes it soon after.

3-1

R5 Delver

G1 I Waste and GQ him after he casts two ponders. I win with Marit Lage.
G2 I waste his only land and I win. I didn't know what deck he was playing until I asked him!

4-1

R6 Aluren

G1 I have no idea what he's playing. I keep wasteland and loam. He plays basics and Deathrite. I can't do anything. He plays Aluren and I die.
G2 Same as G1. This seems like a terrible matchup for the Ghost Quarter lands builds.

4-2

R7 UR Delver

G1 I almost die, but I race him with Marit Lage.
G2 I'm down to 3, but he is completely out of lands from my Ghost Quarter loops. I win!

5-2

R8 Omnitell

G1 This guy Preordains and I know I can't win. He Show and Tells Omni. I show Tabernacle. He calls a judge for Oracle text. He casts Cunning Wish. It resolves. He proceeds to tutor three Emrakuls from his deck and shows them to me. I immediately call a judge, and the guy returns the 3 Emrakuls to the bottom of his library. I explain what happened. He is given a warning, forced to shuffle his library, and resolves Cunning Wish. He finds Eladamri's Call and casts Emrakul. He takes an extra turn and draws a card without paying Tab's cost. I tell him Emrakul is dead, but he quickly returns his card to the top of the library. I call the judge again, wondering if there's a penalty for trying to rewind the game by himself, which he has done twice now. He is simply allowed to shuffle his library and proceed. He finds Emrakul again anyway. DERP.
G2 I just lose. I shake his hand and he's almost crying. I just laugh it off.

5-3

R9 Omnitell again! DAMN.

G1 He preordains, and I immediately try to assemble my Marit Lage. He reads all of my cards and I lose to Cunning Wish anyway.
G2 I get a chalice but he Show and Tells Omni and casts Cunning Wish. He says "I am a beginner. I don't know Lands." Thanks, buddy, that really helps.

5-4


The deck was great all day, until I ran into the two Omnitell decks. There's just no winning that matchup. I played some 6 playtest games with a friend on day 0 and lost every single one. I didn't get to play against Eldrazi or Miracles! That was really weird.

[heckler]

yeah, omni is quite a terrible matchup. even more so than standard sneak and show decks. sometimes they durdle and you have to just hope for a game or 2 of that in order to pull ahead and back it up with some teeth.

on another topic above, I don't really like chalice against miracles. it still doesn't stop a wear/tear which nearly all miracles players bring in against us.

as a side note, would slaughter games even be remotely playable in a g/r/b version of the deck? 4cc is a lot but for games like miracles or games where the opponent durdles with a combo, it just might be able to absolutely break a stalemate. seems like a high opportunity cost though and is not resistant to being dredged over.

[Ingo]

on another topic above, I don't really like chalice against miracles. it still doesn't stop a wear/tear which nearly all miracles players bring in against us.

as a side note, would slaughter games even be remotely playable in a g/r/b version of the deck? 4cc is a lot but for games like miracles or games where the opponent durdles with a combo, it just might be able to absolutely break a stalemate. seems like a high opportunity cost though and is not resistant to being dredged over.

With Chalice on one, they don't have the cantrips to find Wear/Tear. As they usually side out Terminus, chalice1 also means they die to the first Marit Lage (if they don't block with Clique / bounce with Jace). Like the match between Daryl Ayers and Joe Lossett in SCG Baltimore, in which Ayers resolved a T1 chalice on the draw in the second game. Chalice1 was devastating, Ayers had the game in his pocket in that very first turn.
Slaughter Games is definitely playable against Miracles, and I'd probably name Swords to kill them asap. SGames would also mess up their top 3 cards, so it would even interfere with Terminus should they keep it in. Slaughtergames is slow though, and where chalice is playable against combo, this is probably too slow.

[Sibelius]

yeah, omni is quite a terrible matchup. even more so than standard sneak and show decks. sometimes they durdle and you have to just hope for a game or 2 of that in order to pull ahead and back it up with some teeth.

on another topic above, I don't really like chalice against miracles. it still doesn't stop a wear/tear which nearly all miracles players bring in against us.

as a side note, would slaughter games even be remotely playable in a g/r/b version of the deck? 4cc is a lot but for games like miracles or games where the opponent durdles with a combo, it just might be able to absolutely break a stalemate. seems like a high opportunity cost though and is not resistant to being dredged over.

If Omni tell decks are coming back then you MUST play Sphere of Resistance in the sideboard or even Trinispheres. It stops all of their spells being free so you still have a chance even if they resolve a Show and tell into Omniscience. The trick for this game is to not do anything until they play Show and tell. Keep Sphere and Grip in hand and let them put your Sphere into play uncounterably. Then just blow up their Omni with your grip. Rishadan Port is also A LOT better here then Ghost quarter. I know 4 Chalice and 4 GQ are the tech used in Daryl Ayers latest list but if you are going into an Omni or SNS meta then go back to playing Sphere and Port. They are just as good vs Miracles as GQ and Chalice but you need to play in a slightly different way.
Slaughter Games is too slow vs combo and doesn't do anything vs Miracles.
Miracles players should be taking out Terminus as resolving that vs us is pointless due to their main plan post board, being either a backbreaking enchantment like Bloodmoon or B2B, From the Ashes (not that good imo) or tempo-ing us with Mentors.

Lands is a deck where practice with it is much much more important than changing sb slots all the time. Its why all the lists that do well are run by the same people and they have their own takes on what is the correct build because of how they play with the deck.

Sib

[Ingo]

Slaughter Games ... doesn't do anything vs Miracles.


With all respect, but this isn't true. We often deliver a huge effort in game1 on wasting/porting/quartering all white sources, so we safely can make and attack with Marit Lage. SGames accomplishes the exact same goal by removing swords game2, uncounterable and for 4 mana.

[.Ix]

If Omni tell decks are coming back then you MUST play Sphere of Resistance in the sideboard or even Trinispheres. It stops all of their spells being free so you still have a chance even if they resolve a Show and tell into Omniscience. The trick for this game is to not do anything until they play Show and tell. Keep Sphere and Grip in hand and let them put your Sphere into play uncounterably. Then just blow up their Omni with your grip. Rishadan Port is also A LOT better here then Ghost quarter.


That is still a plan that won't win us many games by virtue of us needing both Sphere and Grip. Game 1 is still almost free for them. I do agree that Port is better than GQ in this matchup, even though Lands with Ports is still not favored by any stretch of imagination.



I know 4 Chalice and 4 GQ are the tech used in Daryl Ayers latest list but if you are going into an Omni or SNS meta then go back to playing Sphere and Port. They are just as good vs Miracles as GQ and Chalice but you need to play in a slightly different way.
Slaughter Games is too slow vs combo and doesn't do anything vs Miracles.


Chalice and GQ are much better against miracles than Sphere and Port from my testing, especially since the GQ plan works in Game 1. Slaughter Games is not that bad against Combo. I've Slaughtered an Omnitell deck once when I was playing Elves. It doesn't seem that unlikely.





on another topic above, I don't really like chalice against miracles. it still doesn't stop a wear/tear which nearly all miracles players bring in against us.


That's ok! If they have to find a W/T to kill a Chalice just to Plow Tracker or Marit Lage, it will be a lot easier for us. It also gives us more time to harass their white sources until they are completely unable to remove our threats.

[Alexeezay]

In my experience, it isn't that bad against Omni postboard. I had worse results versus straight SneakShow. If you got a Sphere, backed up by pressure in Tracker or just a fast combo you're in a good spot. One time I had 2 Grips in hand with Karakas out, but he just played 2 Omniscience (played the 2nd with the first one) LOL. Tracker is good pressure, double sphere is insane, Grip can ruin their day, if you play Primeval Titan or Choke that's also good (played both as a 2-off versus OmniTell in the past alongside 5 Spheres and he had no fun)

[Crimhead]

As they usually side out Terminus, chalice1 also means they die to the first Marit Lage (if they don't block with Clique / bounce with Jace).Is this normal? Miracles pilots in my area do not usually side out Terminus against me. :(
Still I always bring in CotV!


With all respect, but this isn't true. We often deliver a huge effort in game1 on wasting/porting/quartering all white sources, so we safely can make and attack with Marit Lage. SGames accomplishes the exact same goal by removing swords game2, uncounterable and for 4 mana.Forces a shuffle too!

[Sibelius]

With all respect, but this isn't true. We often deliver a huge effort in game1 on wasting/porting/quartering all white sources, so we safely can make and attack with Marit Lage. SGames accomplishes the exact same goal by removing swords game2, uncounterable and for 4 mana.

Waste landing anyone when playing Lands is the opposite of a huge effort.
It is what the deck is built to do.
As is Porting.
When playing vs miracles you need to be sitting down and preparing to run the 'remove all of their white sources plan'. Which is frankly incredibly easy when you run Boseiju main. Which everyone should now be doing. It makes the Miracles pre-board a good MU. The GQ version is better at this preboard because if they deal with Loam with CB you can still draw into a GQ for their plains. But both versions are playing Boseiju to crush the miracles MU. THAT is the important card.

Slaughter Games.
It is too slow for true combo matchups, and stories of 'this one time I once used it against Storm' etc don't prove that it is good. It costs 4 mana for gods sake. If you get to 4 mana vs combo then you should be winning anyway.

You want your SB cards to either diversify your attack plan or directly deal with their plan vs you. Guess what Miracles plan post board is? Blood Moon, Back To Basics, From the Ashes, hell even Tsabos Web, Ensnaring Bridge and Ruination see play. We already have the cards to deal with Plow. Its called Chalice and killing their white sources. Who gives a flying monkeys if they have no Plows if all we have are Mountains, or no lands at all? How are we winning that game?
Slaughter Games costs 4. At what point in the game do we get to take all of their Plows? Before we make a Token? That seems a little slow considering their hate gets online then. And we can't make the token before using SG because they will just plow it. We have to play the ultra long game.

Even more simply.
Post board the game sets up like this.
We can win any long game because of Boseiju and the life gain from having Marit Lage Plowed. We can eternally make tokens until they run out of answers.
Miracles therefore have to deal with Boseiju and our lands that make a 20/20. They do this with 3CMC enchantments and 4CMC sorceries. They also have a plan to deal with our recursion. Surgical Extraction or Rest in Peace 2CMC enchantment.
Knowing all this makes our Sideboard plan blindingly obvious.
1. Have a plan in case they Surgical our Loam - Tracker is this plan
2. Stop them getting Red mana or to 3 or 4 mana in a main phase - Port and Spheres do this. Wasteland helps as well.
3. Bring in something to kill enchantments and artifacts, Miracles play a lot of these - Krosan Grip.

(4. Play around Surgical if you can - Tranquil Thicket)

How exactly does Slaughter Games fit into how the game sets up post board?

I hope this helps everyone with Sideboarding vs Miracles. Remember they get to board as well, we don't just have to beat their game 1 plan anymore.

Sib

[Ingo]

Waste landing anyone when playing Lands is the opposite of a huge effort.
It is what the deck is built to do.
As is Porting.
When playing vs miracles you need to be sitting down and preparing to run the 'remove all of their white sources plan'. Which is frankly incredibly easy when you run Boseiju main. Which everyone should now be doing. It makes the Miracles pre-board a good MU. The GQ version is better at this preboard because if they deal with Loam with CB you can still draw into a GQ for their plains. But both versions are playing Boseiju to crush the miracles MU. THAT is the important card.

Slaughter Games.
It is too slow for true combo matchups, and stories of 'this one time I once used it against Storm' etc don't prove that it is good. It costs 4 mana for gods sake. If you get to 4 mana vs combo then you should be winning anyway.

You want your SB cards to either diversify your attack plan or directly deal with their plan vs you. Guess what Miracles plan post board is? Blood Moon, Back To Basics, From the Ashes, hell even Tsabos Web, Ensnaring Bridge and Ruination see play. We already have the cards to deal with Plow. Its called Chalice and killing their white sources. Who gives a flying monkeys if they have no Plows if all we have are Mountains, or no lands at all? How are we winning that game?
Slaughter Games costs 4. At what point in the game do we get to take all of their Plows? Before we make a Token? That seems a little slow considering their hate gets online then. And we can't make the token before using SG because they will just plow it. We have to play the ultra long game.

Even more simply.
Post board the game sets up like this.
We can win any long game because of Boseiju and the life gain from having Marit Lage Plowed. We can eternally make tokens until they run out of answers.
Miracles therefore have to deal with Boseiju and our lands that make a 20/20. They do this with 3CMC enchantments and 4CMC sorceries. They also have a plan to deal with our recursion. Surgical Extraction or Rest in Peace 2CMC enchantment.
Knowing all this makes our Sideboard plan blindingly obvious.
1. Have a plan in case they Surgical our Loam - Tracker is this plan
2. Stop them getting Red mana or to 3 or 4 mana in a main phase - Port and Spheres do this. Wasteland helps as well.
3. Bring in something to kill enchantments and artifacts, Miracles play a lot of these - Krosan Grip.

(4. Play around Surgical if you can - Tranquil Thicket)

How exactly does Slaughter Games fit into how the game sets up post board?

I hope this helps everyone with Sideboarding vs Miracles. Remember they get to board as well, we don't just have to beat their game 1 plan anymore.

Sib

I think you're a good player, but I have no clue what's itching you here. Maybe it's just monday for you.

Miracles will play the list of hate you've posted regardless of any sideboard card you play. It's why you play Krosan Grip or Abrupt Decay, and nobody is suggesting to cut down on them. The point is, regardless of any gameplan, wether it might be chalices, slaughtergames, needles, porting/quartering/wasting, boseiju, bloodmoon will ruin your day, and you will have to remove it or you'll loose, wether you would play SGames or not. In short, when Bloodmoon is on the table, with whatever sideboard cards I'm playing, the only flying monkey I really care about is Grip/Decay. Essentially this has nothing to do with playing a card like SGames besides them.

As for chalice, sure it is a great way to deal with swords, but I sure had the feeling you're advocating spheres instead.

And no we cannot make eternally tokens, even with Boseiju. The reason is Surgical extraction, and when it extracts Dark Depths the game is seriously franchised, and the card is usually played over RIP because its just better with Snapcaster. This is also why Chalice is so good against Miracles. A card like SGames can also take all swords, regardless of Bloodmoon (mox) or extraction or counterbalance or Wear/Tear, and ensure the first token to be lethal (just watch cliqueblock/Jacebounce). That doesn't invalidate all other gameplans you've described as it's not all in on this one card, but it sure is on hell of an effect for a single card if you draw into it. It's also not like the Miracles matchup is decided before turn 4. And ofcourse SGames is too slow for other matchups, but this was never stated otherwise.

I am not here advocating the use of SGames against the broader meta, but I definitely think you can play it with good results against Miracles for reasons previously stated. I also think that we should never discredit cards for not being on the stock list. Almost all renoveling of the deck has been initiated by players like David Long, whether it's playing Trini's in the Omnitell-period, experimenting with Darklands, playing Quarters instead of ports and vortices instead of Fires. You are right to promote knowledge and experience with the same cards, but it's also true that settling in your ways isn't always the best move in a changing meta. Not a single card of any deck is eternally set in stone (well, maybe except loam then).

[jhport12]

There are many reasons that I personally find Slaughter Games a poor SB card for Lands against Miracles. Not "less than ideal" and not "an edge-case", but just outright bad.

Even if there was only one card in Miracles that we needed to stop in order to essentially win the game, our manabase colors are not built for 2RB and on top of that a 4 CMC card takes time to deploy unless we have an Exploration in hand that doesn't get countered. And if we are building RGB Lands, then we have Thoughtseize out of the sideboard to strip a Swords out of our opponent's hand.

But Miracles post-board has a lot of problematic cards that are much worse than Swords to Plowshares. Miracles might have Back to Basics, Blood Moon, Rest in Peace, Surgical Extraction or Karakas. And if we have Tireless Tracker as our remaining win condition, they could have chump-blocking Mentor tokens, Terminus, Moat, or Vendillion Clique with Karakas.

So I'm not really seeing why I would want a Slaughter Games in my SB.

[jhport12]

Is this normal? Miracles pilots in my area do not usually side out Terminus against me. :(
Still I always bring in CotV!

Forces a shuffle too!

I know that some Miracles players (i.e., the bad ones) have occasionally done this. It is a mistake that good Miracles players don't make because they know that Chalice of the Void is a thing and Tireless Tracker is a thing.

And if your only out to a Marit Lage is 1 of out 4 Swords, you leave yourself mighty vulnerable to a nuts draw from the Lands player.

[jhport12]

Lands is a deck where practice with it is much much more important than changing sb slots all the time. Its why all the lists that do well are run by the same people and they have their own takes on what is the correct build because of how they play with the deck.

Sib

I think your statement about practice extends well beyond Lands to most decks.

Beyond that, play-style does matter a lot. I've had friends tell me that I play Lands differently than they've seen it played, but not 'worse' than they've seen it played, just different. Some players harmonize more with the control side of Lands, while others the combo side. This can greatly impact what build you play and what your sideboard and maybe-board are.

Sometimes even after you playtest a card and see its benefits, you still don't like it. Some people just don't want to utilize Tireless Tracker, so they find a different way to have an alternate win condition like a Primeval Titan or a planeswalker.

I personally have a strong aversion to the RUG version of Lands because I love the Depths/Stage combo a lot and I remember playing Lands in 2008 with Mishra's and Nantuko Monastery--that was okay back then, but I like the new combo flavor. As a result, I resist the GRB black version with Abrupt Decay and Thoughtseize, as well. And when I play, I accept that sometimes I am the control deck, but I don't seek it out.

[Ingo]

I know that some Miracles players (i.e., the bad ones) have occasionally done this. It is a mistake that good Miracles players don't make because they know that Chalice of the Void is a thing and Tireless Tracker is a thing.

And if your only out to a Marit Lage is 1 of out 4 Swords, you leave yourself mighty vulnerable to a nuts draw from the Lands player.

As I wanted to be sure, I posted the question on the Miracles thread. Although answers were diverse, I trust Hyperions (Miracles/landsplayer, made top8 GP Colombus) opinion on the matter, which is siding the 4 Termini out. There wasn't a consensus about the topic though.

[jarvisyu]

As I wanted to be sure, I posted the question on the Miracles thread. Although answers were diverse, I trust Hyperions (Miracles/landsplayer, made top8 GP Colombus) opinion on the matter, which is siding the 4 Termini out. There wasn't a consensus about the topic though.

Having played a bunch of both sides of the matchup, I strongly believe Terminus is bad in the matchup.

[jhport12]

Having played a bunch of both sides of the matchup, I strongly believe Terminus is bad in the matchup.

Can you articulate why? Is the concern that you won't have the library manipulation available to make it work? Or is the theory that SB hate cards are more effective than Terminus and that there are fewer maindeck cards you would want to leave in over Terminus?

[Minniehajj]

Can you articulate why? Is the concern that you won't have the library manipulation available to make it work? Or is the theory that SB hate cards are more effective than Terminus and that there are fewer maindeck cards you would want to leave in over Terminus?

Chiming in for a moment: Terminus is only good if a) we're able to float it and have white mana to use it and b) you're raw dogging Marit Lage and we stumble upon it.

Neither option is optimal for either side post board. a) is taxed because of port/GQ denying us that plan, as well as hate for Top and Brainstorm in the form of Chalice of the Void and Krosan Grip and b) is extremely risky.

[Chatto]

With recent inclusion of enchantments like Vortex and Assault, I think it's save to drop Manabond? Tested it yesterday at a local tournament, and never missed the card. Any thoughts?

[jarvisyu]

Chiming in for a moment: Terminus is only good if a) we're able to float it and have white mana to use it and b) you're raw dogging Marit Lage and we stumble upon it.

Neither option is optimal for either side post board. a) is taxed because of port/GQ denying us that plan, as well as hate for Top and Brainstorm in the form of Chalice of the Void and Krosan Grip and b) is extremely risky.

agreed with these good reasons.

[Ingo]

With recent inclusion of enchantments like Vortex and Assault, I think it's save to drop Manabond? Tested it yesterday at a local tournament, and never missed the card. Any thoughts?

Loam needs a minimum of cards to abuse it's effect, or you don't translate the cardadvantage in boardadvantage. In a way, Vortex is similar to exploration and manabond as it gives you boardadvantage - not on your side of the field but by burning away your opponents creatures. So yes, you can drop the manabond for some Vortex'es/Assaults as you just traded it for a different kind of card that abuses loam in a different kind of way.

[rlesko]

What are everyone's thoughts on how Lands is positioned for upcoming GP Louisville ?

[Chatto]

Loam needs a minimum of cards to abuse it's effect, or you don't translate the cardadvantage in boardadvantage. In a way, Vortex is similar to exploration and manabond as it gives you boardadvantage - not on your side of the field but by burning away your opponents creatures. So yes, you can drop the manabond for some Vortex'es/Assaults as you just traded it for a different kind of card that abuses loam in a different kind of way.

I wasn't even thinking about Loam, only about the discard at the end step :smile: With two enchantment in my main this effect is less desirable. Not saying it happens all the time, but still... After Wednesday-night I just didn't missed Manabond at all.

[Sara_Anderson]

Has anyone tried Nissa, Vital Force as an alternate win condition?

[filln]

Has anyone tried Nissa, Vital Force as an alternate win condition?

I've been using her in the SB and have been pretty pleased with her so far. Slightly slower than Nissa Worldwaker at closing at games but I like that all of Vital Force's abilities are relevant.

[Sibelius]

I think you're a good player, but I have no clue what's itching you here. Maybe it's just monday for you.



I wanted to apologise for the tone of my post. I don't know what was up with me but the level of condescension and general anger was not appropriate. For that I am sorry.

I do however stand by my argument about Slaughter Games not being what you want to have in the Matchup. I think you can construct a good argument for almost any card in a vacuum but in a 9 round tournament the loss of sideboard space will cost you more than you gain from the inclusion. This is assuming that the black splash can be accommodated well and its a good meta to be running an even more shaky mana base.
Either way, if you think it will be a good idea, test it out and report back, good luck!

Sib

[Ingo]

I wanted to apologise for the tone of my post. I don't know what was up with me but the level of condescension and general anger was not appropriate. For that I am sorry.

I do however stand by my argument about Slaughter Games not being what you want to have in the Matchup. I think you can construct a good argument for almost any card in a vacuum but in a 9 round tournament the loss of sideboard space will cost you more than you gain from the inclusion. This is assuming that the black splash can be accommodated well and its a good meta to be running an even more shaky mana base.
Either way, if you think it will be a good idea, test it out and report back, good luck!

Sib

I appreciate your reply. But it was monday afterall, and that's always a moody day.

I'll pm you with some thoughts, as it's probably a bit much here on the forum. But I just wanted to add that the suggestion of SGames was meant in reply of someone who was already on the blacksplash. And as for sideboardspace, you are right that it takes slots of the sideboard and that the cards it replaces, are part of the discussion. A card that fulfills a similar role is Boil (where Boil adds some value versus other bluebased matchups, and Slaughtergames adds some value against combo or control), and I can see Slaughtergames take its place in a blacksplash version.

[J0n]

But I just wanted to add that the suggestion of SGames was meant in reply of someone who was already on the blacksplash. And as for sideboardspace, you are right that it takes slots of the sideboard and that the cards it replaces, are part of the discussion. A card that fulfills a similar role is Boil (where Boil adds some value versus other bluebased matchups, and Slaughtergames adds some value against combo or control), and I can see Slaughtergames take its place in a blacksplash version.

I've been testing the blacksplash for the last few months - also with Slaughtergames and my conclusion is that it's not worth it. When ever I was able to cast it against storm decks something unusual was going on anyway (like the opp was way too slow, manascrewed, etc). So it didn't really help against these match-ups, it was just helpful when i was winning anyway. Against Miracles it was slightly different as I was able to resolve it way more often, but there's no single attack against this deck that "just wins" and whenever I removed all StPs I still lost against Bloodmoon, etc. So it took a while to realize that the latest proactive chalice/tracker approach might be way more effective (even though it hurts) than removing threats from the opponent's library. But I still love the card ;-)

[Benama9]

Hi all,

I just started playing with the deck a few weeks ago, and I'd like to ask the community for some sideboard advice. I've been having some trouble deciding which cards need to go when going to game 2. My sideboard is pretty stock, with 4 chalices, 4 trackers, 4 grips, a Karakas, a bojuka bog and a boseiju. The matchups are Abzan maverick, Death & taxes, Punishing maverick, Jund, RUG and Grixis delver, specially the first two. I would like to ask your opinion also on when is it correct to sideboard out loams and / or depths, since I'm never sure on when is it correct.

Thanks!

[Sibelius]

Hi all,

I just started playing with the deck a few weeks ago, and I'd like to ask the community for some sideboard advice. I've been having some trouble deciding which cards need to go when going to game 2. My sideboard is pretty stock, with 4 chalices, 4 trackers, 4 grips, a Karakas, a bojuka bog and a boseiju. The matchups are Abzan maverick, Death & taxes, Punishing maverick, Jund, RUG and Grixis delver, specially the first two. I would like to ask your opinion also on when is it correct to sideboard out loams and / or depths, since I'm never sure on when is it correct.

Thanks!

Its never really correct to sideboard out Loams or Depths. These are our win conditions. Sometimes people will take out a single depths, going to 3 if the matchup is very very grindy and long. None of these matchups is the place to do that.
You need to bring in your Grips and start to sideboard some more recursive removal like Molten Vortex or Seismic Assault if you play vs these decks often in your meta.
Take out Manabond to start with. You can often cut some 'one of' lands like Boseiju, Riftstone portal, Glacial Chasm, maybe a Maze of Ith or two or GQ if its main vs decks that play basics. If their graveyard hate plan is RIP then take out Tranquil thicket. Leave it in for Surgical.
Without your exact list its hard to say what to do next, there is not really a stock list, though from you sb I imagine you are running Daryl Ayers list with 4 GQ main. If you play vs DNT a lot you will find it more helpful to play Rishadan port over Ghost quarter. This way you can try to keep them off the mana needed to cast Sanctum Prelate that often locks you out of the game.
Trackers are often a good choice to bring in but you need to make sure you have the space for them. Don't remove too much of the main plan to fit them in. It is often a personal choice and heavily influenced by play style.

These matchups, other than DNT, are all good for us so if you are having problems it will be due to what you are prioritising in these games. Try to decide if your opening hands lead you to a quick combo win or a longer more drawn out grindy game. Also be aware of what you need to be playing around from these decks, their graveyard hate, wastelands and annoying cards like submerge or pithing needle.

I hope this helps you a bit.

Sib

[J0n]

Its never really correct to sideboard out Loams

Actually I've made the experience that boarding out 1-2 Loams makes sense against very fast combo MUs (f.e. Storm) when you don't really want to grind but make a token as fast as you can (and don't want to mill your own hate pieces). But I think that this is more a personal choice and depending on how you're playing the deck.

[.Ix]

I've boarded out 4 Loams against Belcher, too.

[Chatto]

I try to keep the core of our deck intact, meaning I would not side out combo-pieces. In general I would board out some 'useless' Toolbox-lands, perhaps shave some LftL, and maybe shave Gamble a/o CR. Always board out Manabond, if you play the card. I tend to have this rule: nothing is sacred, everything can be taken out. Knowing what to take out can be difficult, though :smile:

[Benama9]

Its never really correct to sideboard out Loams or Depths. These are our win conditions. Sometimes people will take out a single depths, going to 3 if the matchup is very very grindy and long. None of these matchups is the place to do that.
You need to bring in your Grips and start to sideboard some more recursive removal like Molten Vortex or Seismic Assault if you play vs these decks often in your meta.
Take out Manabond to start with. You can often cut some 'one of' lands like Boseiju, Riftstone portal, Glacial Chasm, maybe a Maze of Ith or two or GQ if its main vs decks that play basics. If their graveyard hate plan is RIP then take out Tranquil thicket. Leave it in for Surgical.
Without your exact list its hard to say what to do next, there is not really a stock list, though from you sb I imagine you are running Daryl Ayers list with 4 GQ main. If you play vs DNT a lot you will find it more helpful to play Rishadan port over Ghost quarter. This way you can try to keep them off the mana needed to cast Sanctum Prelate that often locks you out of the game.
Trackers are often a good choice to bring in but you need to make sure you have the space for them. Don't remove too much of the main plan to fit them in. It is often a personal choice and heavily influenced by play style.

These matchups, other than DNT, are all good for us so if you are having problems it will be due to what you are prioritising in these games. Try to decide if your opening hands lead you to a quick combo win or a longer more drawn out grindy game. Also be aware of what you need to be playing around from these decks, their graveyard hate, wastelands and annoying cards like submerge or pithing needle.

I hope this helps you a bit.

Sib


This is really interesting. Actually you're right, I should've put the list I'm working on right now:

Lands:

1 x Forest
4 x Ghost quarter
1 x Glacial chasm
4 x Grove of the burnwillows
3 x maze of ith
2 x Taiga
4 x Thespian's stage
4 x Wasteland
1 x Windswept Heath
3 x Wooded foothills
1 x The tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 x Dark depths
2 x Tranquil thicket
...........................

Spells

4 x Mox diamond
4 x Exploration
1 x manabond
4 x crop rotation
4 x gamble
1 x molten vortex
3 x punishing fire
4 x life from the loam
1 x seismic assault
.................................
................................

SB

1 x Bojuka bog
4 x Chalice of the void
1 x Boseiju
1 x Karakas
4x tireless tracker
4 x krosan grip
............

What you proposed is very interesting. So in case of any of the maverick / Jund matchups, and considering I have maindeck vortex and assault, the sb should be something like this then? ( I haven't seen RIP yet, they've always used surgical )

+4 grips
-1 manabond
-1 glacial chasm
-1 ghost quarter
-1 maze of ith?

Against D&T

+4 grips ( is Karakas useful in any way in this matchup? )
-1 manabond
-2 ghost quarter
-1 maze / chasm?

Additionally, and according to your experience, would you suggest adding another vortex into the board for these matchups?

Thanks!

[Alexeezay]

I would board all Tireless Trackers in the D&T matchup, and some of them also in the Jund matchup.

[Sibelius]

SB

1 x Bojuka bog
4 x Chalice of the void
1 x Boseiju
1 x Karakas
4x tireless tracker
4 x krosan grip
............

What you proposed is very interesting. So in case of any of the maverick / Jund matchups, and considering I have maindeck vortex and assault, the sb should be something like this then? ( I haven't seen RIP yet, they've always used surgical )

+4 grips
-1 manabond
-1 glacial chasm
-1 ghost quarter
-1 maze of ith?

Against D&T

+4 grips ( is Karakas useful in any way in this matchup? )
-1 manabond
-2 ghost quarter
-1 maze / chasm?

Additionally, and according to your experience, would you suggest adding another vortex into the board for these matchups?

Thanks!

You need to be aware why you are bringing in Krosan Grip.
Why would you bring this card in vs Jund?
Does your opponenet play Leyline of the Void? Pithing Needle? Here you would be better adding some number of Trackers.
Grip is to kill their hate or disrupt their md plan. If that is equipment or Counterbalance then its a good idea but I don't see what it is doing vs Jund, although 2 is probs ok vs Dark Maverick as they have SFM. Bojuka bog is a play you can make vs Surgical extraction effects if you need.

Sideboarding with this deck is a difficult balancing act. You need to be aware of what cards they will be bringing in against you and what you can do to stop that disruption. This is because against nearly all decks we are doing something more powerful so they often go to the board for answers. Our board has answers for those answers. If the deck is not going to use Artifact or Enchantment hate vs us then why bring in the Krosan Grips? Our main deck plan is probably good enough already then.

Vs Jund I would
+ Bog
+ Some number of Trackers or Grips depending on what we see game 2 (Leyline = grips)

- Chasm (Deathrite and Wasteland deal with this, We don't want to get blown out)
- Manabond
- Seismic Assault (triple red is going to be hard to get here)
- possibly a Depths. We can quite easily grind them out as they have lots of dead cards.

Things to think about
How do they win? - Goyf tempo beat down backed up with some disruption in the form of deathrite or surgical. This means we need to keep Maze in and have ways to deal with deathrite and gy hate.
they play 2 basics

gotta run ill write more later

Sib

[Crimhead]

You need to be aware why you are bringing in Krosan Grip.
Why would you bring this card in vs Jund? My policy is that I need a good reason not to bring in Grip! In other words, I need to be fairly certain they're not bringing in any artifacts or enchantments to hose my engine.



Vs Jund I would
+ Bog
+ Some number of Trackers or Grips depending on what we see game 2 (Leyline = grips)
If in doubt, I bring in Grip(s) game two, and if I don't see any targets maybe I'll take them out for G3.

That said there's not a lot of Jund in my meta any more (I've maybe been paired against it once in the last two years), so I'm not overly familiar with their current game plan. Maybe this is one of the few decks that we don't need Grip against? People do like their Surgicals these days!

[Chatto]

My policy is that I need a good reason not to bring in Grip! In other words, I need to be fairly certain they're not bringing in any artifacts or enchantments to hose my engine.

I feel the same, K-Grip is one of the first cards I would consider boarding in, period. I've been punished far too many times for making the wrong decision :cry:

[chaosjace]

Agree. The one game ONE GAME I didn't board in K-grip, I lost to needles I didn't expect.

[Benama9]

You need to be aware why you are bringing in Krosan Grip.
Why would you bring this card in vs Jund?
Does your opponenet play Leyline of the Void? Pithing Needle? Here you would be better adding some number of Trackers.
Grip is to kill their hate or disrupt their md plan. If that is equipment or Counterbalance then its a good idea but I don't see what it is doing vs Jund, although 2 is probs ok vs Dark Maverick as they have SFM. Bojuka bog is a play you can make vs Surgical extraction effects if you need.

Sideboarding with this deck is a difficult balancing act. You need to be aware of what cards they will be bringing in against you and what you can do to stop that disruption. This is because against nearly all decks we are doing something more powerful so they often go to the board for answers. Our board has answers for those answers. If the deck is not going to use Artifact or Enchantment hate vs us then why bring in the Krosan Grips? Our main deck plan is probably good enough already then.

Vs Jund I would
+ Bog
+ Some number of Trackers or Grips depending on what we see game 2 (Leyline = grips)

- Chasm (Deathrite and Wasteland deal with this, We don't want to get blown out)
- Manabond
- Seismic Assault (triple red is going to be hard to get here)
- possibly a Depths. We can quite easily grind them out as they have lots of dead cards.

Things to think about
How do they win? - Goyf tempo beat down backed up with some disruption in the form of deathrite or surgical. This means we need to keep Maze in and have ways to deal with deathrite and gy hate.
they play 2 basics

gotta run ill write more later

Sib

Good points.

What you've suggested about chasm is also very interesting. Do we sb it out against any GBX wasteland deck? ( here I include RUG and grixis delver as well ). If so, in which matchups does glacial chasm really shines apart from burn? I can't see it being very useful against combo and there are better options against miracles. I'd love some advice in this direction.


Thanks

[chaosjace]

I had taken chasm completely out of my deck for a while, only threw it back in when I started going to a new place to play. I have not seen a game where I missed it or wanted it in a long time.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

The only MUs I would side it out in (barring combo and miracles) is Death and Taxes due to them having Flickerwisp and Wasteland to get through it and sac'ing a land is pretty brutal in that MU

I wouldn't cut it from the deck, it lets us turn crop rotation into a fog (if we need it) and can buy us a lot of time in games where we are somewhat behind.

[Dice_Box]

I love it against Aggro, but not control. I class DnT as control. If I cut it though, it would only be as far as the sideboard.

[heckler]

chasm helps against infect, elves, burn, belcher (if they used LED to pop it and can't back it up; even otherwise at times), zoo, and I don't really mind it most of the time against delver. They generally wasteland as soon as they see one to throw us off kilter to close the game out. in long games often I don't mind losing it for a turn or copying it with stage in response. It also can buy you time against an empty the warrens if the storm player went that route in G1. It can also prevent you from just losing to a price of progress.

chasm does seem to be a card that gets boarded out more often than most though.

[chaosjace]

I know it's not a bad card, but I just don't run into those matchups where it shines, or does any work at all. Maze does the job better without putting pressure on me or my resources (in my meta)

[jhport12]

I know it's not a bad card, but I just don't run into those matchups where it shines, or does any work at all. Maze does the job better without putting pressure on me or my resources (in my meta)

I can see how a Chasm might lose out to a different one-of land (Boseiju, Bojuka, Karakas, etc.), although I wouldn't recommend it. Even factoring in different metas, there are quite a few decks where having it matters.

Glacial Chasm has saved me against the following decks (where a Maze would not have):

Manaless Dredge
Mana Dredge
Elves (so many times)
Burn
Infect
Eldrazi (so many times)


I have also faced situations where Chasm saved me against decks I might not have expected it to (Miracles with a Mentor out, Delver, Shardless, Death & Taxes) either because those deck pack Wastelands, or because you expect them to only have 1-2 active creature threats. True-Name Nemesis, in particular, comes to mind.

[Stevestamopz]

Lands players, you all had better have a really good explanation as why you haven't been playing this badboy.

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ia/181.jpg

It's both Choke and 3/4s of a Mana Short but more importantly, the flavour win of the century.

[Dice_Box]

CMC is too high. Often, 5 is easier to Counterbalance than 3 is as well.

[Stevestamopz]

CMC is too high. Often, 5 is easier to Counterbalance than 3 is as well.

Choke isn't called the The Choke of Marit Lage though... Why are you not all as excited by this as me :tongue:

On a more serious note, surely with Mentor being everywhere, 5 mana is easier to get through CB than 3 mana? It's not as if you're not going to hit your land-drops either... :wink:

[chaosjace]

It's weird to see people complain about CMC in a deck that is half lands or more. Plus all the acceleration we run. I'd run this card, I am also considering Nissa for my SB.

[jarvisyu]

Lands players, you all had better have a really good explanation as why you haven't been playing this badboy.

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ia/181.jpg

It's both Choke and 3/4s of a Mana Short but more importantly, the flavour win of the century.

any enchantment // artifact isn't that great vs Miracles because of the number of Disenchant type of effects they auto board in.

That's part of why I moved away from Choke to begin with....


The flavor win is very real though :)

[Crimhead]

It's weird to see people complain about CMC in a deck that is half lands or more. Plus all the acceleration we run. I'd run this card, I am also considering Nissa for my SB.For the amount of lands and accelerators we run, mana is surprisingly tight. Both our Loam engine and Punishing Fire engine eat considerable mana. It's even tricky to keep mana free for Molten Vortex. Not to mention our non-producing lands, taking land-drops away. I had a hard time getting value out of Blighted Fen for this very reason.

I'll have to sleeve up this super cheeky tech one day and hope to get a laugh at my LGS, but it won't actually be very good. I've got (much) better cards to run against Miracles, plus I see a lot of decks where this won't come in at all. Lands itself is popular in my area, as well as Eldrazi, and D&T. Loam, Burn, MUD, Pox, and Dredge are all possibilities too. Not to mention Reanimator and Storm, which do run Islands but won't be affected by the Curse.

I could run it for fun, but it won't be very good. Maybe if High Tide ever come back I can hope to eat a counter-spell. :tongue:

Anyway, thanks for making me smile this morning Stevestamopz! :laugh:

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

I need 15 of those, if only so I can leave one after I 2-0 my opponents.

[Crimhead]

How are you guys boarding against infect - specifically what are you taking out?

My feeling is that we need as much removal and mana denial as possible, so that all stays in. Even Maze seems too important to cut - sure they can get around it with Vines or Needle, but it does bolster our defence and usually buys me time at worst. Meanwhile, Spheres and CotV are highly desirable to slow them down, and K-Grip is does good work killing Inkmoth as well as answering Needle.

My inclination is to leave out the Trackers despite the fact that we are facing Extraction (often they are targeting my removal or Wasteland/GQ instead of Loam or my combo pieces anyway). I guess I'm figuring we have to focus on control in this MU - I'm even shaving down the DDs to make room.

Any thoughts?

Edit - this is from the primer:



Side in: 2x Dark Depths, Krosan Grips for destroying Pithing needles on Stage/Maze and Inkmoth Nexus.
Side out: Karakas, Bojuka Bog and 2 ManabondI'm not running Manabond, and Karakas is SB right now. Also I don't have Depths in the board and I don't really want too many in this MU anyway (especially without Manabond) as I don't think racing is the best plan here. Are you guys not bringing in lock-rocks?

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Usually cut the flex spots (Thicket, 4th Dark Depths, etc) and some number of gamble. Basically the slower parts of the deck, and then start shaving if I need more spots.

Usually only board in Grips (haven't checked the infect thread in a bit to see what he's bringing in) , our maindeck is already good enough to beat them and we don't want to dilute the deck too much.

[Benama9]

How are you guys boarding against infect - specifically what are you taking out?

My feeling is that we need as much removal and mana denial as possible, so that all stays in. Even Maze seems too important to cut - sure they can get around it with Vines or Needle, but it does bolster our defence and usually buys me time at worst. Meanwhile, Spheres and CotV are highly desirable to slow them down, and K-Grip is does good work killing Inkmoth as well as answering Needle.

My inclination is to leave out the Trackers despite the fact that we are facing Extraction (often they are targeting my removal or Wasteland/GQ instead of Loam or my combo pieces anyway). I guess I'm figuring we have to focus on control in this MU - I'm even shaving down the DDs to make room.

Any thoughts?

Edit - this is from the primer:

I'm not running Manabond, and Karakas is SB right now. Also I don't have Depths in the board and I don't really want too many in this MU anyway (especially without Manabond) as I don't think racing is the best plan here. Are you guys not bringing in lock-rocks?

I faced the same problem yesterday; the list felt extremely tight when facing infect. As suggested, I considered taking out the thickets, but I'm not sure whether this is correct when most surely we are facing surgicals in G2 and G3. Finally I took out a depths, a manabond, a ghost quarter and a gamble for 4 x grips. I'd like to ask whether someone boards in the chalices against them and how good they are ( they shut down needle and surgicals ). If so, what are you taking out? Is it worth it?

Thanks.

[Ingo]

How are you guys boarding against infect - specifically what are you taking out?



I only board in the 4 Grips (decays) versus infect versus Inkmoth or a lone Needle, RIP (usually played over extraction where I play), Library ...
I usually cut down on 2 flexlands (Bog, Boseiju) and also 2 manadenial like Ports or Quarters.
Ports are too slow against infect, and as KGrip ups the amount of hate against Inkmoth, cutting some manadenial is justifiable.

I never side in chalices or Spheres against Infect, because they hinder you as much (or more) than the opponent (Chalice1 blocks crop for Chasm or the combo, whatever comes up first, and spheres tax our Punishing Fires as well). I don't board out gamble though, as I really want access to Pfire.

EDIT: I have bad experiences with boarding out Thicket, as I sometimes had to extensively mull due to colorscrew. That's a shame if you need to throw away an otherwise perfect hand. So now I never board Thickets out anymore.

[DudeItsCorey]

How are you guys boarding against infect - specifically what are you taking out?

I actually take out the two cards you mentioned that you don't have in your main - Karakas and Manabond, and board in Pithing Needle and Kozelik's Return. Our maindeck is already so well equipped to beat infect, that I never board into the normal combo hate (spheres and chalice). I just play it like a fair matchup and always keep hands with heavy removal. Pithing Needle is specifically for inkmoth nexus and I can see not needing to bring it in. You can maybe go down a dark depths? Comboing off ASAP is not important in the matchup because if you have heavy removal hands you can bide your time.

[Benama9]

Hi all,

Last week I had the option to trade in a bayou for my EDH Gitrog deck. Since I already have the decays I was thinking i could use the dual as well to make the black splash in my lands deck as well. My question is: What are the advantages of the GRb lands build? Do all 3 decays go into the main? What about the board? I'd appreciate if someone could explain to me the main differences between playing both builds. Also, in which metas is better the splash and in which metas better no splashing at all? I guess the combo and miracles matchup get a little better, but I'd appreciate to know the community feedback

Thanks!

Edit: grammar

[Crimhead]

You've pretty much nailed it. Abrupt Decays (usually three main) shore up the Miracles match, and Thoughtseieze (from the board) does wonders in combo matches when combined with our mana denial and our ability to race them.

To make room for the Decays, the deck abandons the Punishing Fire package and not favorite of the leaner Molten Vorticies. This costs a lot of equity against fair decks - this is the tradeoff.

I'm less fond of the Jund build myself - I prefer prison and combo over discard and removal. Just a style thing. Maybe somebody with more experience with the black splash could further comment on the nuanced differences as to how the deck should be played.

[Benama9]

You've pretty much nailed it. Abrupt Decays (usually three main) shore up the Miracles match, and Thoughtseieze (from the board) does wonders in combo matches when combined with our mana denial and our ability to race them.

To make room for the Decays, the deck abandons the Punishing Fire package and not favorite of the leaner Molten Vorticies. This costs a lot of equity against fair decks - this is the tradeoff.

I'm less fond of the Jund build myself - I prefer prison and combo over discard and removal. Just a style thing. Maybe somebody with more experience with the black splash could further comment on the nuanced differences as to how the deck should be played.

I see your point here, though I have a question. Why isn't a build like this viable?

1xBayou
2xTaiga
1xForest
3xWindswept Heath
1xWooded foothills
3xMaze of ith
3xGrove of the burnwillows
4xDark depths
4xThespian's stage
1xGlacial chasm
1xTranquil thicket
4xWasteland
4xGhost quarter / Port
1xThe tabernacle at pedrell vale

4xLife from the loam
3xPunishing fire
1xMolten vortex
3xAbrupt decay
4xCrop rotation
4xMox Diamond
4xExploration
4xGamble

+ Sideboard.

I'm goldfishing these days with a list like this online, but I'd like to know your opinion as well.

Thanks!

[Crimhead]

I see your point here, though I have a question. Why isn't a build like this viable? Most poeple like to have better access to black mana in order to reliably cast Decay. David Long runs an extra two fetchlands plus Bojuka Bog Main for an extra three black sources. This pretty means something needs to be cut; I guess the Groves make the most sense because Vortex allows us to run a removal package that doesn't need those Lands (it does need extra Red sources in play - hence the third Taiga).

I guess you could try to run PF in the Jund build (I think I even saw such a list once). Looking at your list, I'd go:

-1 Vortex
-1 Thicket

+1 Bog
+2 fetches

For a total of 61 cards. Maybe this is viable - I guess the downside is you've still weakened your removal package (albeit less so) and you've cut into your flexibel slots (no room for Thicket or Karakas etc).

I don't know how good this would be. I haven't tested much with the black splash because it's not to my tastes. Also with Prelate kicking around I like a more diverse removal package - Vorticies and PFs (with Barbarian Ring too). And to be completely Honestly I'm leaving towards the RUG version in the current meta. But by all means expiriment!

Edit - here are a couple lists:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=14091&d=283785&f=LE
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=13156&d=277038&f=LE
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=13093&d=276511&f=LE

And there are more if you care to search MTG top8. They seem to be running a meeker removal package than a full on R/G build, but also fewer black sources than other Jund builds. With these decks I guess the issue would be reduced consistency across all matches. But as I've said, I'm not exactly an expert on the black splash.

[Ingo]

Hi all,

Last week I had the option to trade in a bayou for my EDH Gitrog deck. Since I already have the decays I was thinking i could use the dual as well to make the black splash in my lands deck as well. My question is: What are the advantages of the GRb lands build? Do all 3 decays go into the main? What about the board? I'd appreciate if someone could explain to me the main differences between playing both builds. Also, in which metas is better the splash and in which metas better no splashing at all? I guess the combo and miracles matchup get a little better, but I'd appreciate to know the community feedback

Thanks!

Edit: grammar

In addition to what Crimhead said, when you look at the 75, 4 krosan grip take up a lot of space for a card thats usually boarded in for some\all copies. Decay hits almost anything you board Kgrip in for, but as it destroys creatures\walkers too, it can trade for both Kgrips and Pfires in the main, freeing up 3 sideslots. You need a more heavy black manabase, especially if you want Thoughtseize in the side, as you really need to play TS on turn 1. Without groves you have Vortex as a recursive damagedealer instead of Pfire.
Its interesting to compare with Boseiju, a narrow card that takes an additional slot but is in line with the main strategy whereas decays free overall space in the 75 and is broadly applicable, but not synergic with the dredging theme.

[Chatto]

Any thoughts about this card:

Pacification Array {1}

Artifact - Uncommon

2,T: Tap target artifact or creature.

Tapping creatures pre-combat? Or too cute? 2-mana activation is perhaps a bit much.

[snorlaxcom]

Any thoughts about this card:

Pacification Array {1}

Artifact - Uncommon

2,T: Tap target artifact or creature.

Tapping creatures pre-combat? Or too cute? 2-mana activation is perhaps a bit much.

is sneak and show that bad?

[Alexeezay]

What do you think about this:
//Main
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4 Crop Rotation
3 Dark Depths
4 Exploration
1 Forest
4 Gamble
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Life from the Loam
1 Manabond
3 Maze of Ith
4 Mox Diamond
3 Punishing Fire
4 Rishadan Port
1 Seismic Assault
3 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 4 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Seismic Assault
SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 4 Tireless Tracker

- I cut Glacial Chasm since it's the card I side out the most. It's never that great (sure it can save you vs Infect, Merfolk or Elves but they're good matchups already) because it's almost only good when you're in a good position, aka Exploration + Loam going. And even then it's not necessary unless TNNs are beating you down and you haven't found the Depths combo.
- I like the package of 4 Waste 4 Port 2 GQ. That way, cou can cover both angles of mana denial really well, GQing to shuffle and lock out, Porting to help in the early stages of the game.
- Seismic Assault is for D&T mostly, but are nice in matchups like Elves,Jund,Miracles,Stoneforge.dec. I've tested both Assault and Vortex a lot, and Vortex just binds too much mana with the R: activations. Assault has won me games out of nowhere, even multiple times having all my Loams extracted. I just kept drawing lands or drawing more with Tracker to control the board and finish the game.
- Bojuka Bog main is for the Reanimator/combo meta.
- I could see getting in the 4th Dark Depths somewhere (maybe by cutting the 4th Port) or Tranquil Thicket in place of Canopy...not sure.

[Ingo]

- Seismic Assault is for D&T mostly, but are nice in matchups like Elves,Jund,Miracles,Stoneforge.dec. I've tested both Assault and Vortex a lot, and Vortex just binds too much mana with the R: activations. Assault has won me games out of nowhere, even multiple times having all my Loams extracted. I just kept drawing lands or drawing more with Tracker to control the board and finish the game.

Seismic Assault is definitely the better card on the battlefield, but you have to compare CC's as well, as RRR vs R is a huge difference. By the time you have RRR for Assault, you could already activate vortex 3 times a turn, and have cast it T1. So I prefer this speed of Vortex, as it impacts the first turns where Assault does not.

[Chatto]

is sneak and show that bad?

Not really, but it could always use some improvement. However, it could be too cute. I was not thinking about SnS, but flying blockers in general, really.

[Wiktul]

Hello everyone :)

I've just finished reading the whole primer (and all posts written here, over two weeks of highly entertaining lecture :wink: ). I have to thank you all for discussing ideas, updating your results and lists, reporting games etc. That's priceless source of knowledge for a pure Lands-beginner such as myself :)

Yet, I have a question about specific card that has never been even mentioned here by anyone, what is quite suprising for me, as I fell in love with it from the first sight. The card I'm talking about is Petrified Field

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=30014


If I am no wrong, this allows us to make a couple of really handy tricks, like:

- returning land that has been destroyed / discarded to Mox / discarded to Gamble / sacrificed to Crop Rotation / sacrificed as a combo piece that was somehow disrupted (Stiffle, Swords etc.)
- increase the possibility of saving a card tutored from Gamble
- makes opponent's sandbagged Wasteland a little bit less potent
- saves valuable land from Extraction, or Leyline if Loam is not an option (opponen's turn, Extracion in response etc.)
- return already used Tranquil to instantly use it agian, igniting Loam (single or multiples) another time
- sac Glacial Chasm without required 2 Thespian's and mana, when we can't afford to pay for 3rd or 4th upkeep
- using it instead of Loam when it's absent or jammed (Chalice, Countertop, Prelate)
- gives us another way out from DRS, when we need to cast Loam, but are jammed by DRS's response
- more mana denial with Exploration and single Wasteland / Ghost Quarter

Considering all this and a little bit more (entering untapped, producing mana on it's own - colourless, yet still usefull), i think it can be used as 61 card / instead of second Tranquil / 3rd Maze / 4th fetch / Karakas that does not fit specific meta etc.

Or... Maybe I am wrong indeed and this is so crappy, horrendously stupid idea that nobody had ever wanted to mention it in the first place? :smile:

Edit:

Aaaand latest news from Aehter Revolt:

http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/heroicintervention.html

Finnaly, uncounterable (with Boseju) answer to Swords or some blinks into Marit? :)

[Ingo]

Hello everyone :)

I've just finished reading the whole primer (and all posts written here, over two weeks of highly entertaining lecture :wink: ). I have to thank you all for discussing ideas, updating your results and lists, reporting games etc. That's priceless source of knowledge for a pure Lands-beginner such as myself :)

Yet, I have a question about specific card that has never been even mentioned here by anyone, what is quite suprising for me, as I fell in love with it from the first sight. The card I'm talking about is Petrified Field

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=30014


If I am no wrong, this allows us to make a couple of really handy tricks, like:

- returning land that has been destroyed / discarded to Mox / discarded to Gamble / sacrificed to Crop Rotation / sacrificed as a combo piece that was somehow disrupted (Stiffle, Swords etc.)
- increase the possibility of saving a card tutored from Gamble
- makes opponent's sandbagged Wasteland a little bit less potent
- saves valuable land from Extraction, or Leyline if Loam is not an option (opponen's turn, Extracion in response etc.)
- return already used Tranquil to instantly use it agian, igniting Loam (single or multiples) another time
- sac Glacial Chasm without required 2 Thespian's and mana, when we can't afford to pay for 3rd or 4th upkeep
- using it instead of Loam when it's absent or jammed (Chalice, Countertop, Prelate)
- gives us another way out from DRS, when we need to cast Loam, but are jammed by DRS's response
- more mana denial with Exploration and single Wasteland / Ghost Quarter

Considering all this and a little bit more (entering untapped, producing mana on it's own - colourless, yet still usefull), i think it can be used as 61 card / instead of second Tranquil / 3rd Maze / 4th fetch / Karakas that does not fit specific meta etc.

Or... Maybe I am wrong indeed and this is so crappy, horrendously stupid idea that nobody had ever wanted to mention it in the first place? :smile:

Edit:

Aaaand latest news from Aehter Revolt:

http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/heroicintervention.html

Finnaly, uncounterable (with Boseju) answer to Swords or some blinks into Marit? :)

Hi Wiktul, welcome to Lands, and reading 175 pages of comments is quite something!

About Petrified Field, I actually don't think it is very good.
A big reason is that the card goes to your hand instead of the battlefield, so using it sets you back a landdrop.
Also, ideally you would croprotate for such a one-off card and if it's to get a specific land back from the yard, why not rotate directly for this specific landcard? It's biggest asset seems to me saving a land from extraction through croprotation, just like a canopy could save loam. It seems like a weaker loam-effect, and although you can rotate for it, I'd rather spend a 61'st card on a Crucible of Worlds or Sylvan Library for loamlike effects.

I also don't think the new card 'Heroic intervention' will see play either.
There is a similar card in not of this world, and it doesn't see play in Lands as there's loam to repeatedly replay the combo instead of protecting it (NOTW does sees play in Turbo Depths though, and perhaps Heroic Intervention will too as it protects pre-combo lands as well).

New ideas are interesting to discuss though, so don't let my negating comment prevent you from suggesting and asking something else!

[Dice_Box]

Petrified Field is not a card I like. I like the idea, and that is why I would run a Crucible in the side, but Fields is just too slow. Its not that the idea is not sound, but the question is always, "What are you cutting to add this". I do not think anything is weaker than Field and I would be hard pressed cutting something for it.

[djxstream]

Doesn't look like we're getting any game changing cards in this new set. (like vortex or tracker) BUT

http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/unbridledgrowth.html

I kinda love this. Throw it on a dark depths, ultimate value.

But i know it's not realistic as I can't picture what slot it replaces or if it's better that the other options to get these effects (riftstone portal/urborg or cycle lands)

[Morte]

Moreover, Abundant Growth is strictly better.

[filln]

Moreover, Abundant Growth is strictly better.

Unbridled Growth at least provides some protection for your Loams against Surgical though I guess?

[U_mage]

Good luck to the other GP Louisville attendees, see you in the top 8

[djxstream]

Moreover, Abundant Growth is strictly better.

i didnt even know that was a card. well then.

[Chatto]

Moreover, Abundant Growth is strictly better.

I disagree. At least you can sac Unbridled Growth.


Good luck to the other GP Louisville attendees, see you in the top 8

Good luck indeed! Too bad there's no coverage :mad:

[Morte]

I disagree. At least you can sac Unbridled Growth

Sorry Chatto, maybe I'm not getting your point?

http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/unbridledgrowth.jpg http://mythicspoiler.com/ema/cards/abundantgrowth.jpg

The new Growth is a nerfed Abundant Growth: it is basically the same card except that you have to sacrifice it to draw a card, while the original one cantrips on EtB, leaving the aura in play. Am I missing something?

[Chatto]

The cantrip is nice indeed, but the ability to sac and draw a card, to me, is better. Imagine your Loam being targeted, and saving it by this sac-effect.

[Morte]

Thanks for the clarification, makes perfectly sense. It's a while I'm not playing Lands, I'm a little rusty

[U_mage]

Got my first day 2 with lands at 6-3

[Chatto]

Thanks for the clarification, makes perfectly sense. It's a while I'm not playing Lands, I'm a little rusty

No worries, you're welcome :smile:


Got my first day 2 with lands at 6-3

Congrats! Hope you will make a report.

[Wiktul]

I've been playing small local event (10 players). Last time was my first time with this deck (0-5) and I was kinda like "I have no idea WTF I'm doing". This time things went a little bit differently.


Land (35)
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
3x Dark Depths
1x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
2x Maze of Ith
1x Petrified Field
1x Riftstone Portal
4x Rishadan Port
2x Taiga
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Thespian's Stage
1x Tranquil Thicket
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
2x Wooded Foothills

Sorcery (9)
4x Gamble
4x Life from the Loam
1x Sylvan Scrying

Instant (8)
4x Crop Rotation
4x Punishing Fire

Enchantment (5)
4x Exploration
1x Manabond

Artifact (4)
4x Mox Diamond

Sideboard (15)
1x Akroma, Angel of Fury
2x Chalice of the Void
3x Krosan Grip
1x Nissa, Vital Force
1x Pithing Needle
1x Primeval Titan
2x Sphere of Resistance
2x Volcanic Fallout
2x Warping Wail


Round 1: Merfolks

G1 - I started with solid hand: Mox, Stage, Loam, Gamble, fetch, Port and a forest or some other land. He started with Vial and Curse Catcher. Not much to report, I made Marit turn 4, he responded with Phantasmal Image from Vial :frown: I couldn't get P-fire to target it and he would overrun me anyway.

G2 - My Chalice on 1 slows him down a little bit, but I couldn't get the combo from Loam (despite having 3 Stages in play or hand). He keeps hitting me with Mishra and other fish, I keep defending myself with single Maze and Loaming with Boseju (he has hand full of counterspells, he discards merfolks at his end step while I'm holding him a little bit lower with Port). I couldn't get single Exploration needed, so I could loop Chasm Lock, and I had to exchange Glacial for Stage or another of two Stages, looping it with Loam from Boseju. Eventually, after 10 or more loooong turns, I manage to make single Marit that meets Echoing Truth. No more Depths, nor Gamble or Rotation and I die anyway with his creatures unable to attack.


Round 2: 4c delver

G1 - I have fast hand with combo, exploration and mox. He dies turn 4, nothing more to say.

G2 - He starts with Tropical and DRS, seems a little bit more comfortable. I start with Wasteland - Mox (fetch) - exploration - Tabernacle, Waste his Tropical, go. He desperately tries to save his shaman, tapping him for his Tropical eventually playing cantrips from additional lands, that are wasted just after that. That's how it goes for next 3-4 turns, when I have token and more Ports in play than he has permanents.


Round 3: Death&Taxes

G1 - I'm playing against a friend of mine, so I know his build and his style. I start with good hand: Mox, exploration, P-fire, fetch, Loam, maze, grove. He starts with Vial, Mother of Runes eot (burned with PFire). I start Loaming aaaand.... Can't get even single land with 4 dredges :cry: Odds are not in my favour, I eventually get second Maze (after 5th dredge), but it's not enough. He has 3 creatures, double waste and port, so I don't want to waste more time.

G2 - Quite like before, I start to punish his creatures, he plays more carefully. I play Petrified Field, and Nissa, Vital Force, untaping and waiting. He plays RiP, I exchange Field for Depths in responce, go for Marit and 5/5 lands in case of Swords. Not much more to play, but my friend plays so slow, that time starts to flow backwards. Eventually he gives up.

G3 - I have very fast and cruel control over his single Cavern and Vial on 3. I waited if he will put something nasty eot with Fire in hand, but he didn't so I Gripped it in his draw step. Still, I'm very short of time (few times I was blaming myself for playing slow with this deck, but his each single land drops for eternity :/ ), so I have to decide - Nissa turn 3 and struggle to kill him with single land creatures, or combo with RiP. I tried second option, Marit eats Path and while he has nothing to play, I have just 2 turns left with him at full life. Draw.


Round 4 - elves

G1 - Marit turn 3, he complains that I did it in my turn, while he can always bounce it with some creature of his or easily ramp for Emrakul. Somehow, he does not, so he dies.

G2 - My chalice on 1, Marit turn 2. Yet he starts to ramp zylions of mana and quadrilions of creatures. He plays Green Sun Zenith despite Chalice, gets something like 9 creatures, with DRS and Faerie Macabre. I P-fire Macabre, strike with Marit, he eats Macabre with DRS. I could have burned him if my single R-mana source wasn't Grove and he will trample me with next turn

G3 - With this in mind, I'm going to be very mean this time. Mox, Exploration, Wasteland, Gamble for Tabernacle, Loam in hand. Go ahead, try to ramp this time. He tries to hit me with Relic of Progenitus, but I get what I need with Petrified Field. He gives up 2 turns later.


Round 5 - BUG delver

There were many draws and hard match-ups around (2x Miracle, Painter, D&T, 3x Delver), so if I would win this one, I would be first with 3-1-1.

G1 - I didn't know what he's playing, so I kept a hand with Mox, Exploration, Gamble, P-fire, Port, fetch and other land. Played acceleration, gamble for Loam to have everything in place, dropped Pfire. He plays Sea and DRS. I curse myself for carelessness and try to get another Fire instead of eaten-one. I did, but then I was facing Nemezis x2 and couldn't get anything solid.

G2 - Pfire on his DRS turn 1, then Sphere, wastelock with Loam from Boseju. The only thing he can do is to Surgical me - and that he does. P-Fire gets surgicaled first, Loam - second. Still, I'm to far ahead and too aware of such possibility, so I kill him without a single hit taken, getting myself at 10 with boseju and good compilation of dredge and draw. Marit for the kill.

G3 - I mulligan first hand with some sideboard cards with no color mana, I keep 6 with Exploration, Wasteland, Ghost Quarter, P-fire, Grove and Loam. We both get nothing for long, long time, not to mention single battle over his DRS, that I eventually win, but nothing special goes for it (I've only eaten my own graveyard with Bojuka). He counters my Loam 5 times in a row, I can't get Boseju, Rotation nor Gamble, nor combo. He plays carefully around my wastelands, keeping fetches at board when they aren't needed. I'm not panicking though, with Krosan in hand at his Needle naming Stage and Volcanic Fallout waiting for his DRS or Delver, but he gets Angler and I don't have Maze. The game went so long and dull, that in the end he countered my Loam twice with FoW for mana, and the big ugly fish eats me finally.


All in all, I finished at 4th place. I'm really happy with this result, especially after two weeks of reading everything you guys discussed here and training with the deck each single day since my first, unremarkable performance. I wish I could play against miracles, because I have some good hate-board plan against them, but not today. I tried really hard to avoid Painter and I did (I couldn't loose to D&T and I didn't). The best ideas of my home-made alterations to deck were definitely Petrfied Field and Nissa, Vital Force. I will exchange 2x Volcanic Fallout for 2x Trieless Tracker, I can't kill Nemezis with them anyway, so I think I have to simply kill all delvers faster than they can put Nemezis into play and deal with fact, that we can't deal with Nemezis in play.

[The_Dingo]

I've been playing small local event (10 players). Last time was my first time with this deck (0-5) and I was kinda like "I have no idea WTF I'm doing". This time things went a little bit differently.

G2 - My Chalice on 1 slows him down a little bit, but I couldn't get the combo from Loam (despite having 3 Stages in play or hand). He keeps hitting me with Mishra and other fish, I keep defending myself with single Maze and Loaming with Boseju (he has hand full of counterspells, he discards merfolks at his end step while I'm holding him a little bit lower with Port). I couldn't get single Exploration needed, so I could loop Chasm Lock, so I have to exchange Glacial for Stage or another of two Stages, looping it with Loam from Boseju. Eventually, after 10 or more loooong turns, I still can't get Depths, nor Gamble or Rotation and I die anyway with his creatures unable to attack.

Thanks for the report and congrats on a good run with some interesting SB technology.

I thought I'd point our that merfolk is a MU where we don't want to bring in chalice OTV. They very frequently play 4 maindecked copies of their own, and the only 1 CMC spell in the deck is cursecatcher. In contrast, we like out 1 CMC spells quite a bit. Even if you had found a gamble, exploration, or crop rotation while hiding under chasm your own chalice would have countered it.