[Primer] R/G Lands

[J0n]

I also added a trop, academy ruins and two maindeck EE (+ 2 ballista to the SB) and love the result. This micro-splash doesn't seem to make the RG list much slower but offers sooo many new ways of dealing with miracles.

[Crimhead]

I also added a trop, academy ruins and two maindeck EE (+ 2 ballista to the SB) and love the result. This micro-splash doesn't seem to make the RG list much slower but offers sooo many new ways of dealing with miracles.
Agreed. If you keep your 8x Gamble/CR instead of dipping into T.West and Intuition, you shouldn't lose much speed. The drawback is that the EE package really likes those blue tutors.


The meta has become worse, but I don't think switching into RUG Lands changes that much...
...So in the end, you shift winning percentages beween matchups but did you become overall stronger against the field as a whole? *

It's a meta call. The more expect to be grinding, the more you want RUG. The more you expect to race, the more you want R/G.


So while RUG is definitely picking up steam, RG is the more played variant. RUG is probably underplayed though.
I think the meta has been shifting in a way that RUG has gotten a little better but RG a little worse (This doesn't necessarily mean RUG is currently a better deck).

But I do believe the player base has been slow to experiment with RUG builds. Possibly this is due to Trops costing money. Possibly "hard control" has less appeal. But for a while it seemed not all R/G players were even aware of the blue builds (or assumed them to be obsolete).


For what it's worth I think RG pilots who are interested in the blue build should check it out if they can afford it. I really enjoy switching back and forth depending on mood.
Yeah, me too. Lands.dec is a great archetype for those who like to mix it up. :D

[Ingo]

Kind of along these lines, I'm planning to test at my next weekly a GBw list I've been working on. It's built to address Leovold and TNN, of which Punishing Fire is pretty awful against.

Nothing adresses TNN, except non-targeted massremoval like EE or -1/-1 counters. Or race it with Marit Lage. The Pharaoh targets, so you won't be able to get TNN this way too. Pfire doesn't really address TNN and Leovold, but it does answer deathrite, and that's a big issue. Removal for non-attacking utility-creatures (deathrite, mom) might be your lists biggest problem, as you only have 3 decays and no tutors to find it. Perhaps Darkblast or Necroplasm could be good entomb targets to help you out.

I have played Burning Reanimator some times (involving comboing Grizle, Rites and LED), and I have to admit that I wondered how good of a discard enabler manabond would be here. So maybe there is some common grounds between Lands and Reanimator, featuring manabond and Unburial Rites. But probably you have something different in mind, like a singleton to tutor for, getting a dredged Primetime back?


Agreed. If you keep your 8x Gamble/CR instead of dipping into T.West and Intuition, you shouldn't lose much speed. The drawback is that the EE package really likes those blue tutors.



Which makes me wonder what David Long played at the latest SCG. A blue splash for EE and Ruins, or full RUG.

[Crimhead]

Nothing adresses TNN, except non-targeted massremoval like EE or -1/-1 counters. Or race it with Marit Lage.

Glacial Chasm addresses TNN, as does the Tabernacle + Strip lock.

[filln]

Nothing adresses TNN, except non-targeted massremoval like EE or -1/-1 counters. Or race it with Marit Lage. The Pharaoh targets, so you won't be able to get TNN this way too. Pfire doesn't really address TNN and Leovold, but it does answer deathrite, and that's a big issue. Removal for non-attacking utility-creatures (deathrite, mom) might be your lists biggest problem, as you only have 3 decays and no tutors to find it. Perhaps Darkblast or Necroplasm could be good entomb targets to help you out.

I have played Burning Reanimator some times (involving comboing Grizle, Rites and LED), and I have to admit that I wondered how good of a discard enabler manabond would be here. So maybe there is some common grounds between Lands and Reanimator, featuring manabond and Unburial Rites. But probably you have something different in mind, like a singleton to tutor for, getting a dredged Primetime back?


While it's true that Decay and Pharaoh don't work on TNN, my only point is that in general it makes PF weaker, so perhaps it would be worthwhile to try out a different color suite. Throwing in a Toxic Deluge in the sideboard is an option too. The Deathrite comment is a good one. Maybe I'll try to fit in a Cabal Pit, but I'm not super keen on it given the need for threshold. The lack of tutors is addressed slightly with the Tops, but you're definitely right it's not quite as good as Intuition or Gamble for PF. Thanks for the great feedback, I'll see how the list goes!

Re: Burning Reanimator, that sounds pretty neat. I do have a Turbo Depths-Reanimator list that I've been meaning to test at a weekly. Uses ESG, Lotus Petal, and Dark Ritual for mana acceleration with the main reanimation targets being Primeval Titan, Grave Titan (which should probably be a Griselbrand, but I have none), or Sire of Insanity. Also runs a Living Wish package for utility creatures + Stage/Depths/Hexmage. It's pretty fun, but a bit fragile still.

[kravkenov]

Quick question about sideboarding plan against Aggro Loam and Dark Maverick.

From an non-typical RG build with a blue splash for Explosives, Academy Ruins and Tolaria, how would you IN/OUT against Aggro Loam and Dark Maverick with the following Sideboard ? Here is my attempts (and my full list of in/out is here for you who are interested : https://cl.ly/k6Ct/LEGACY_BLUE_GARDEN.txt)

//SIDEBOARD
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Chalice of the Void
3 Krosan Grip
1 Walking Ballista
3 Tireless Tracker
2 Phyrexian Revoker

*AGGRO LOAM
1. Punishing Dark Confidant
2. Set Explosive @3 for Knight
3. Watch Knight of the Reliquary (Fetch for Wasteland, Karakas and Maze) and Ooze
They will side-in Leyline of the Void, Swords, …
+3 Grip +3 Tracker +2 Revoker (Knight/Shaman/Ooze)
-1 Karakas -1 Tabernacle -2 Tolaria -4 OTHERS

*DARK MAVERICK
1. Punishing Shaman/Mother
2. Set Explosives @3 for Knight
They will side-in Surgical and Needle, keep Thicket to cycle into Loam
+3 Grip +2 Revoker (Knight/Shaman/Ooze) +3 Tracker
-1 Mox -1 Karakas -2 Tolaria -1 Wasteland -3 OTHERS

[J0n]

Quick question about sideboarding plan against Aggro Loam and Dark Maverick.

From an non-typical RG build with a blue splash for Explosives, Academy Ruins and Tolaria, how would you IN/OUT against Aggro Loam and Dark Maverick with the following Sideboard ? Here is my attempts (and my full list of in/out is here for you who are interested : https://cl.ly/k6Ct/LEGACY_BLUE_GARDEN.txt)

//SIDEBOARD
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Chalice of the Void
3 Krosan Grip
1 Walking Ballista
3 Tireless Tracker
2 Phyrexian Revoker

*AGGRO LOAM
1. Punishing Dark Confidant
2. Set Explosive @3 for Knight
3. Watch Knight of the Reliquary (Fetch for Wasteland, Karakas and Maze) and Ooze
They will side-in Leyline of the Void, Swords, …
+3 Grip +3 Tracker +2 Revoker (Knight/Shaman/Ooze)
-1 Karakas -1 Tabernacle -2 Tolaria -4 OTHERS

*DARK MAVERICK
1. Punishing Shaman/Mother
2. Set Explosives @3 for Knight
They will side-in Surgical and Needle, keep Thicket to cycle into Loam
+3 Grip +2 Revoker (Knight/Shaman/Ooze) +3 Tracker
-1 Mox -1 Karakas -2 Tolaria -1 Wasteland -3 OTHERS

I play a slightly different list. My SB looks like:

Sideboard:15
2 Walking Ballista
2 Tireless Tracker
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Krosan Grip

against AGGRO LOAM I would normally board like this:
+2 Grip (against Leyline if the opp plays it)
+2 Tracker
+1 Crucible
+1 Ballista

-2 Gamble (opp plays chalice)
-1 barbarian ring
-1 glacial chasm
-1 boseiju
-1 maze (as Maze will normally not stop their Knight)

Sometimes I also board chalices to stop their surgicals and StP.

[U_mage]

Top gets banned, RIP Miracles


https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/april-24-2017-banned-and-restricted-announcement-2017-04-24

[filln]

Top gets banned, RIP Miracles


https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/april-24-2017-banned-and-restricted-announcement-2017-04-24

So where do we see the meta shifting now? Tons of BGx and 4C decks? Or is the need for BGx lessened since Counterbalance is gone and so the requirement of Abrupt Decay isn't as strong? Could be a resurgence in combo, which wouldn't be great for us.

From a Lands perspective I'll be putting my Boseiju into storage, as well as my big mana planeswalkers (RIP Chandra, Flamecaller). Kind of bummed out, the Lands vs. Miracles match was one of my favorites. It was never easy but very rewarding to play against.

[kravkenov]

Yeah, "Miracle is dead", long life to "UWx Control".

[Crimhead]

Yeah, "Miracle is dead", long life to "UWx Control".

Our :u::w: "control" match just got better. Our D&T match got a little worse if they dump Cavern. Bye, bye Boseiju!

[Chatto]

Well now, I think we're going to see a lot of BUG grindfest decks on one side, aaaaand a lot of Blood Moon decks on the other side. Interesting times, but not sure if those times will be good for our beloved deck!

[filln]

Our :u::w: "control" match just got better. Our D&T match got a little worse if they dump Cavern. Bye, bye Boseiju!

On the plus side, early guess is that D&T will be in a pretty bad place in the new meta. Miracles was a pretty good matchup for them and combo, Elves, and TNN could make more appearances.

[Crimhead]

Well now, I think we're going to see a lot of BUG grindfest decks on one side, aaaaand a lot of Blood Moon decks on the other side. Interesting times, but not sure if those times will be good for our beloved deck!
I'm not afraid of bugs.

And we are going to grow pretty fat eating all those Elves!

Moons could be an issue, but Painter just lost Top.


On the plus side, early guess is that D&T will be in a pretty bad place in the new meta.
Maybe D&T becomes mostly Imperial Taxes? There's our Moon deck. :(

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Focusing on fast combo seems like a nice adjustment to make in the short term. I'll probably be dropping boseiju for depths #4 and making sure I'm playing 2 manabonds. I'm hoping stoneblade picks up since that was a juicy matchup the few times I've played against it with Lands.

[Skyl3lazer]

Another thing to consider is that Port is again potentially a viable player, since it doesn't feed DRS and getting Miracles off of white isnt as important.

[Crimhead]

Another thing to consider is that Port is again potentially a viable player, since it doesn't feed DRS and getting Miracles off of white isnt as important.
Long live Port!

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Leovold still swings the rishadan port/ghost quarter pendulum pretty heavily towards ghost quarter for me.

[Skyl3lazer]

Leovold still swings the rishadan port/ghost quarter pendulum pretty heavily towards ghost quarter for me.

I definitely think we need a more Leovold focused answer in the sideboard now. Not sure exactly what fits the bill here unfortunately, maybe something weird like conflagrate, toxic deluge, or even lightning axe? Maybe the black splash is again something to look towards for TS and decay?

I also think playing an Ancient Tomb is something to seriously look at now so we can get ahead on mana faster and have more shots at t2/3 token

[Crimhead]

Leovold still swings the rishadan port/ghost quarter pendulum pretty heavily towards ghost quarter for me.Port should make it vastly easier to keep them off that triple-colour cost though. GQ dosen't help much at all to stop that.


I definitely think we need a more Leovold focused answer in the sideboard now. Not sure exactly what fits the bill here unfortunately...
EE is pretty good if you don't mind the :u: splash.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Could be more combo/elves too so I don't hate ancient tomb at all. May have to finally pick one up.

[Crimhead]

Could be more combo/elves too so I don't hate ancient tomb at all. May have to finally pick one up.
It's taking the Boseiju slot in my board. :laugh:

[non-inflammable]

EE is pretty good if you don't mind the :u: splash.

drop some miracles hate and add one Llawan, Cephalid Empress in your sideboard :wink:

[filln]

Port should make it vastly easier to keep them off that triple-colour cost though. GQ dosen't help much at all to stop that.


Port is also better for reducing Deathrite food.

[djxstream]

I definitely think we need a more Leovold focused answer in the sideboard now. Not sure exactly what fits the bill here unfortunately, maybe something weird like conflagrate, toxic deluge, or even lightning axe? Maybe the black splash is again something to look towards for TS and decay?

I also think playing an Ancient Tomb is something to seriously look at now so we can get ahead on mana faster and have more shots at t2/3 token

I've been on the black splash for a long time. I'm actually torn cause I'm thinking the opposite, I want PFs/Manabond now. But at the same time, toxic deluge and discard have been amazing.

[Djehuti]

I definitely think we need a more Leovold focused answer in the sideboard now. Not sure exactly what fits the bill here unfortunately, maybe something weird like conflagrate, toxic deluge, or even lightning axe?

Heaven // Earth might have some potential

[Ciubulu]

Gq's are better against poor mana bases like 4c controls. I will keep boil in my side along with a trinisphere vs combo because I guess we will see a lot more combo decks like ant or high tide now that cb/top lock is gone

[Skyl3lazer]

Heaven // Earth might have some potential

I was actually thinking like this


Land (35)
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Barbarian Ring
4x Dark Depths
1x Forest
4x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
3x Maze of Ith
1x Riftstone Portal
3x Taiga
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Thespian's Stage
1x Tranquil Thicket
4x Wasteland
3x Wooded Foothills

Enchantment (7)
4x Exploration
2x Manabond
1x Molten Vortex

Instant (6)
4x Crop Rotation
2x Punishing Fire

Sorcery (8)
4x Gamble
4x Life from the Loam

Artifact (4)
4x Mox Diamond


Sideboard
1x Back to Nature
1x Boil
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Chalice of the Void
2x Heaven / Earth
1x Karakas
1x Krosan Grip
4x Sphere of Resistance
2x Tireless Tracker

[Crimhead]

Port is also better for reducing Deathrite food.

Stalls or stops Leotard - check.
Doesn't feed DRS - check.
better vs Storm or Reanimator - check.

Ports are going back in my main deck!

Not sure how relevant DRS is though. Usually we eat him. If he sticks, it's pretty hard not to feed him.

[Dice_Box]

Still have to get my other 2 Foil Ports. I guess I can try a split for the time being.

[Crimhead]

Gq's are better against poor mana bases like 4c controls. I will keep boil in my side along with a trinisphere vs combo because I guess we will see a lot more combo decks like ant or high tide now that cb/top lock is gone

GQ is better against (3+ colour) tempo decks with no basics. Against (3+ colour) midranged decks, GQ is good but doesn't pay dividend early. 4x Port + 4x Wasteland means we will usually not let a TNN or Loetard hit the stack - especially any time earlier in the game.

Ancient Tomb is awesome extra Storm tech. That argues for SoR over 3Ball.

The only thing you should pack for the High Tide match is a big fat joint. You'll have plenty of time. And personally I need a smoke after being fucked like that.
Seriously, Belcher is a better match.


Still have to get my other 2 Foil Ports. I guess I can try a split for the time being.

I don't like going bellow 3 Ports. Port is gets most of its value:

Early
In multiples
2 are not enough to reliably get one of those situations going.

[benjiman13]

I think we should probably be happy of this change. The king died Long live the king!

The format will be unstable for sure (a lot of persons says that the fast combo will rise again but honnestly maybe for some weeks but the players will adapt shortly with more delver deck).

Bad point is that it makes space in all the SB and I'm pretty sure that a lot of gravehate will come in. Tracker will be very good!

[LuKe94]

I think we should probably be happy of this change. The king died Long live the king!

The format will be unstable for sure (a lot of persons says that the fast combo will rise again but honnestly maybe for some weeks but the players will adapt shortly with more delver deck).

Bad point is that it makes space in all the SB and I'm pretty sure that a lot of gravehate will come in. Tracker will be very good!

Long live to LANDS!
Hi again guys, i am currently testing 2nd manabond, ancient grudge in sb (seems better against dt for vial+recursion from grave)
Joe Losset said that Lands will gain a lot of edge with an aggro oriented field.

If you feel like, I am the admin of a Lands development group on Facebook, just pm me and make this great deck to tier0 toghether!
Ps I am missing 2 foil Port as well

[Skyl3lazer]

I have signed ports available since I upgraded to jpn foils :V

As far as SB goes, I think we can drop down to 2-3 responses to enchantments and artifacts, and up to 4 trackers + spheres. I'm still waiting to see if decks like Big Red come back in force.

[benjiman13]

I have signed ports available since I upgraded to jpn foils :V

As far as SB goes, I think we can drop down to 2-3 responses to enchantments and artifacts, and up to 4 trackers + spheres. I'm still waiting to see if decks like Big Red come back in force.

I am 12 cards away from my main altered !

[Dice_Box]

I am 12 cards away from my main altered !
Have you put up a post in the Pimp thread?

[benjiman13]

Have you put up a post in the Pimp thread?

I am new on the forum so I did not knew about this thread. . Will take a look and post over there!

Never liked the foils... long live the alters ! !!

[gigapatrick]

I haven't posted in forever, but my excitement over the Top ban is high. Super interested in how the death of Miracles frees up our sideboard. Up to the last big showing for Lands, with Ayer's 2nd place 4-GQ list, most lists had only been running four pieces of combo hate (either Spheres or Chalices) to have more room to defeat Miracles. I assume this goes back up to six slots, while the always-four-of K-Grip probably gets dropped entirely for stuff like Seal of Primordium, Hull Breach, and Ancient Grudge, since they all cost less and the uncounterability of K-Grip is (almost) no longer relevant. Do we make room for board sweepers, like Kozilek's Return or Firespout, or some other tech? I'm eager to hear what people think our sideboard configurations can now look like.

[filln]

I haven't posted in forever, but my excitement over the Top ban is high. Super interested in how the death of Miracles frees up our sideboard. Up to the last big showing for Lands, with Ayer's 2nd place 4-GQ list, most lists had only been running four pieces of combo hate (either Spheres or Chalices) to have more room to defeat Miracles. I assume this goes back up to six slots, while the always-four-of K-Grip probably gets dropped entirely for stuff like Seal of Primordium, Hull Breach, and Ancient Grudge, since they all cost less and the uncounterability of K-Grip is (almost) no longer relevant. Do we make room for board sweepers, like Kozilek's Return or Firespout, or some other tech? I'm eager to hear what people think our sideboard configurations can now look like.

Just wanted to say welcome back! Your videos were what got me into Lands in the first place and were very much appreciated.

[gigapatrick]

Just wanted to say welcome back! Your videos were what got me into Lands in the first place and were very much appreciated.

I'm glad to have made them and I'm glad you enjoyed them. Even though I made plenty of boneheaded mistakes, I look back at them feeling like they were worthwhile.

[kravkenov]

I haven't posted in forever, but my excitement over the Top ban is high. Super interested in how the death of Miracles frees up our sideboard. Up to the last big showing for Lands, with Ayer's 2nd place 4-GQ list, most lists had only been running four pieces of combo hate (either Spheres or Chalices) to have more room to defeat Miracles. I assume this goes back up to six slots, while the always-four-of K-Grip probably gets dropped entirely for stuff like Seal of Primordium, Hull Breach, and Ancient Grudge, since they all cost less and the uncounterability of K-Grip is (almost) no longer relevant. Do we make room for board sweepers, like Kozilek's Return or Firespout, or some other tech? I'm eager to hear what people think our sideboard configurations can now look like.

So, I'm never happy when a card get banned (and as a Miracle player too, I'm kind of upset). But even with Counterbalance-Top gone, I would not say that Krosan Grip become useless because some cheaper cmc destroy artifact/enchantment as well. I'm sure you will really appreciate Splitsecond from Krosan Grip when facing Foodchain (which has now gained in solidity with Terminus-less metagame) to kill his monstrous Ballista. But maybe this is the only case where split second matters and Seal of Promodorium might be an overall better solution ;)

[gigapatrick]

So, I'm never happy when a card get banned (and as a Miracle player too, I'm kind of upset). But even with Counterbalance-Top gone, I would not say that Krosan Grip become useless because some cheaper cmc destroy artifact/enchantment as well. I'm sure you will really appreciate Splitsecond from Krosan Grip when facing Foodchain (which has now gained in solidity with Terminus-less metagame) to kill his monstrous Ballista. But maybe this is the only case where split second matters and Seal of Promodorium might be an overall better solution ;)

This is true. K-Grip is useful against Food Chain, while Seal of Primordium and Naturalize are not--but I always felt K-Grip's higher casting cost was only justified because we have to get rid of Counterbalance. Now that we don't need to anymore, I feel like a 2cc Disenchant is way preferable to a 3cc Disenchant. Food Chain can at least be fought in other ways--Sphere of Resistance and Phyrexian Revoker come to mind immediately as really good ones.

[kravkenov]

This is true. K-Grip is useful against Food Chain, while Seal of Primordium and Naturalize are not--but I always felt K-Grip's higher casting cost was only justified because we have to get rid of Counterbalance. Now that we don't need to anymore, I feel like a 2cc Disenchant is way preferable to a 3cc Disenchant. Food Chain can at least be fought in other ways--Sphere of Resistance and Phyrexian Revoker come to mind immediately as really good ones.

Yeah, I'm currently running 4 Sphere and 2 Revoker along with 3 Krosan Grip. But I will certainly cut them for 3 Seal.

[gigapatrick]

Yeah, I'm currently running 4 Sphere and 2 Revoker along with 3 Krosan Grip. But I will certainly cut them for 3 Seal.

What else are you thinking of running in your sideboard? Current ideas for me look something like:

4 Sphere
2 Revoker
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Hull Breach
1 Firespout

With the pretty generic 60 of 34 lands and 26 spells.

[Dice_Box]

I feel like 4 Trackers is a must. Even with Miracles gone, the card advantage when someone takes your Graveyard away is so strong. I also expect to see Blade decks come back, so RIP will be a bitch again.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Blood Moon and RIP I expect to see in more numbers so I'd definitely keep K. Grip, seal is interesting tho so I may try hay as well.

Anyone else feel the ban as a whole was a wash for us, yeah miracles is gone and there is a natural inclination towards bug but blood moon and combo are ALOT better now

[gigapatrick]

Blood Moon and RIP I expect to see in more numbers so I'd definitely keep K. Grip, seal is interesting tho so I may try hay as well.

Anyone else feel the ban as a whole was a wash for us, yeah miracles is gone and there is a natural inclination towards bug but blood moon and combo are ALOT better now

Can you explain your reasoning? I'm not sure why the absence of Miracles makes Blood Moon decks better--and doesn't combo still lose to Force of Will, countermagic, and discard, just like it always has?

[J0n]

Guys, we should not forget s&t. I'd rather have a k-grip than naturalize when looking at an omniscience...

[J0n]

I feel like 4 Trackers is a must. Even with Miracles gone, the card advantage when someone takes your Graveyard away is so strong. I also expect to see Blade decks come back, so RIP will be a bitch again.

Actually I think that they where quite good against Miracles (in combination with chalice). But in the new meta you probably won't need them anymore. (This is also what Daryl just mentioned in a chat). I think it's more important to focus on fast combo and fast creature based decks like well-equipped elves lists (now they have enough space for elderscale worm) etc.

How do you guys defeat food chain? I noticed that just destroying their ballistas & food chains doesn't really help. But attacking their manabase (ghost quarters combined with spheres) was quite helpful. Therefore it was necessary to resolve chalice to be safer against deathrites & surgical.

[Chatto]

I'm going back to a a stocklist (2 Manabond, 1 Bog, 1 Karakas, 1 Canopy, and 4 PF main), and a pretty straightforward sb:

1 B-Ring
2 CoV
4 SoR
4 TT
4 K-Grip

K-Grip is a house against SnT, Food Chain, Aluren, and all those pesky GY-cards. Also your only reasonable out against Blood Moon.

I've got this feeling that were going to see a pretty rough meta the coming weeks. BGx-decks, fast Combo, and a lot of Blood Moon. A streamlined deck is a must.

After the dust settled in, I will evaluate, and make proper adjustments.

[kravkenov]

What else are you thinking of running in your sideboard? Current ideas for me look something like:

4 Sphere
2 Revoker
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Hull Breach
1 Firespout

With the pretty generic 60 of 34 lands and 26 spells.

I'm on a non-traditional RG build w/ Explosives, Academy Ruins and Tolaria. My sideboard looks like this (but as said I will certainly change Krosan Grip for Seal) :

4 Sphere of Resistence
2 Chalice
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tracker
2 Revoker
1 Ballista

[Ingo]

... while the always-four-of K-Grip probably gets dropped entirely for stuff like Seal of Primordium, Hull Breach, and Ancient Grudge, since they all cost less and the uncounterability of K-Grip is (almost) no longer relevant. Do we make room for board sweepers, like Kozilek's Return or Firespout, or some other tech?


Guys, we should not forget s&t. I'd rather have a k-grip than naturalize when looking at an omniscience...


As BUG decks featuring TNN should be on the rise, I'm considering a (some) Golgari Charm in a KGrip slot.

[Chatto]

@ Ingo: that's actually a pretty good option. It also works wonders against Elves. Will try them tonight at my local LGS.

EDIT: but I'm not in the black splash right now... Maybe splash a single Bayou? Still, good call.

[LuKe94]

As BUG decks featuring TNN should be on the rise, I'm considering a (some) Golgari Charm in a KGrip slot.

Really really nice call.
Guys don't undervalue the Molten Vortex main deck option, I am running it because it's great against Game 1 Moon plus great against DT, Delver, Elves and others.

my current SB:

// 15 Sideboard
// 5 Artifact
SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void

// 4 Creature
SB: 2 Tireless Tracker
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental

// 3 Instant
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Karakas

// 2 Planeswalker
SB: 1 Nissa, Vital Force
SB: 1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

[Crimhead]

Really really nice call.
Guys don't undervalue the Molten Vortex main deck option, I am running it because it's great against Game 1 Moon plus great against DT, Delver, Elves and others.

Saying of Moons, I'm keeping 2x Vortex main, but also plan on adding a Seismic Assault or 2 to the board in case Moons come in force. Sounds like a good use for our new found SB space.

[Crimhead]

Also, what do people think about finally merging the threads?

RUG lists are running fewer (or no) Intuitions, including more Gamble.
RGCL lists are splashing :u: for EE and Ruins.
RG lists are playing Crucible sometimes.
I get that RUG is strategically different, but the lines are being blurred so much it feels more like continuum than like 2 discrete decks.

Also, RG Lands and RGB Lands are close enough to share a thread, but RUG lists are the odd man out? That makes as much sense as if we had had 1 thread for Ponder and Mentor Miracles, but a separate thread for Legends Miracles.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Given people migrate between the two, seems fine.

[Ingo]

Also, what do people think about finally merging the threads?

RUG lists are running fewer (or no) Intuitions, including more Gamble.
RGCL lists are splashing :u: for EE and Ruins.
RG lists are playing Crucible sometimes.
I get that RUG is strategically different, but the lines are being blurred so much it feels more like continuum than like 2 discrete decks.

Also, RG Lands and RGB Lands are close enough to share a thread, but RUG lists are the odd man out? That makes as much sense as if we had had 1 thread for Ponder and Mentor Miracles, but a separate thread for Legends Miracles.

With MIracles gone, I don't think RG should splash for U anymore, as EE's main target was counterbalance. EE hits TNN too, but I think powering out the combo is more effective for RG than splashing for EE. So both decks will probably divert again.

[Crimhead]

With MIracles gone, I don't think RG should splash for U anymore, as EE's main target was counterbalance. EE hits TNN too, but I think powering out the combo is more effective for RG than splashing for EE. So both decks will probably divert again.
True. If the format goes more midrange with Leotard and TNN Blade decks (or even Mother/Maverick), EE might still be the best pick. If the combo decks are mostly Elves, that argues for EE too.
I expect the meta to become a little more cyclic in the long term, and erratic in the short term. This will mean more variation in the meta from month to month, town to town. Builds could then be all over the place.

More polarized version of the decks will still exist, but we also have everything in between - and :r::g::b: too.

I'm totally keeping EE for a large (by comparison) local on Sunday. When I've decided between 0, 1, and 2 copies of Intuition, I'll know where to post my list. :)

[kravkenov]

Also, what do people think about finally merging the threads?
RG Lands and RGB Lands are close enough to share a thread, but RUG lists are the odd man out? That makes as much sense as if we had had 1 thread for Ponder and Mentor Miracles, but a separate thread for Legends Miracles.

Agree.

[Dice_Box]

With MIracles gone, I don't think RG should splash for U anymore, as EE's main target was counterbalance. EE hits TNN too, but I think powering out the combo is more effective for RG than splashing for EE. So both decks will probably divert again.
EE is for CB? And here I thought it was a wonderful way to deal with DnT.

[filln]

From Togores' post on the TES Facebook group:

http://i.imgur.com/VJEa9Hh.jpg

Be careful out there. Lots of sideboard space available again...

[Chatto]

Jup, I learned the hard way yesterday... Boy, it is a hostile world out there right now :-(

[Ingo]

EE is for CB? And here I thought it was a wonderful way to deal with DnT.

EE deals with anything, no argument in that. But EE requires a whole lot of commitment to play it, like 5 cards in 3EE/1trop/1Ruins. That's worth it when you commit to the strategy even further as in RUG Lands, along with Intuition and Tolaria West, but is it still worth it now in RG?
There are other wonderful ways to deal with D&T, Barbarian Ring and Molten Vortex coming to mind, and they do not take 5 slots so you can still run some manabonds to play the explosive RG game.

So with Countertop gone, I think the merits of EE has diminished, especially for a RG build that splashes blue just for that.

[Whitefaces]

If Storm players pick up Telemin Performance you could play some Revokers as its good vs them anyway.

[Crimhead]

Performance looks nasty.

Decks running EE/Ruins can stay "alive", but you'll need a Crucible from the board if you want any actual play.
Shouldn't it be hard for them to ramp and dig through our lock rocks anyway? I mean, if they can hit 5 mana, aren't they probably going to kill us one way or another?

[Jay_Gatz]

From Togores' post on the TES Facebook group:

http://i.imgur.com/VJEa9Hh.jpg

Be careful out there. Lots of sideboard space available again...

A salty lands player in my area put a Phage in his board a while back for this situation

[DigitalPsycho]

I think Lands is at a point where the deck evolves or probably dies.

I’m interested if other people feel the same about Lands right now.

With Miracles gone we lose an annoying match up that’s good, but we see an increase in combo decks. This Meta change is normal since in a “new” Meta it’s always best to be linear and fast. The answer to combo decks were always different Delver versions and we can be sure that going forward we will see Deathrite Shaman in these decks. At the same time to the increasing numbers of Combo and Delver Leotard decks will hit hard.

If my prediction is correct and the top decks in the Meta will be “mostly” Combo, Deathrite/leotard and Deathrite/Delver. Traditional Lands will have a hard time vs a Meta like that.
Because even if Delver versions stays a positive matchup the rest of the field is going to be devastating and then we are big on the ‘match up lottery’.

It is extremely unlikely that we will see new cards printed that upgrade slots in the mainboard of R/G Lands. So the question is can Lands evolve with the Meta or are will we fall behind?

[Dice_Box]

I think Lands is at a point where the deck evolves or probably dies.

I’m interested if other people feel the same about Lands right now.

With Miracles gone we lose an annoying match up that’s good, but we see an increase in combo decks. This Meta change is normal since in a “new” Meta it’s always best to be linear and fast. The answer to combo decks were always different Delver versions and we can be sure that going forward we will see Deathrite Shaman in these decks. At the same time to the increasing numbers of Combo and Delver Leotard decks will hit hard.

If my prediction is correct and the top decks in the Meta will be “mostly” Combo, Deathrite/leotard and Deathrite/Delver. Traditional Lands will have a hard time vs a Meta like that.
Because even if Delver versions stays a positive matchup the rest of the field is going to be devastating and then we are big on the ‘match up lottery’.

It is extremely unlikely that we will see new cards printed that upgrade slots in the mainboard of R/G Lands. So the question is can Lands evolve with the Meta or are will we fall behind?
I do not feel it is all doom and gloom. Ok, Combo sucks. Sure. Its going to come back too, yes. But the tempo style decks that prey on Combo will be wonderful food for us. We are going to play a role, like Dredge does. When people forget to include the Grave hate Dredge reminds them that they should. When the Tempo players focus their eyes only on their native prey we can to remind them they are not invincible themselves.

This is all before we talk about what other things may come from this. What if Esperblade comes back and Maverick has an uptick? We are less than a week into whatever this new situation is. Ask me in a month if we are fucked, right now I think its far too early to claim anything with any real certainty.

[Claymore]

Sounds like rock paper scissors to me. Combo > Lands > Delver > Combo. The deck needs to cleanly and reliably answer Deathrite, which may be a problem, but Deathrite decks have a hard time dealing with a high speed Marit Lage if you just ignore the little bugger.

[Whitefaces]

Sounds like rock paper scissors to me. Combo > Lands > Delver > Combo. The deck needs to cleanly and reliably answer Deathrite, which may be a problem, but Deathrite decks have a hard time dealing with a high speed Marit Lage if you just ignore the little bugger.

Yeah, I agree with this assessment.

Ancient Tomb seems like a good SB option again too, and load up on spheres.

[Dice_Box]

Yeah, I agree with this assessment.

Ancient Tomb seems like a good SB option again too, and load up on spheres.
Was thinking that.

[DigitalPsycho]

We are going to play a role, like Dredge does.

I don’t know which prediction is worse that lands needs to evolve or that we are now on the same level as dredge.

I think the 'rock paper scissors' analogy is wrong. Because if Scissors starts with Deathrite Shaman and gimps Rock’s starting hand than there is no “true” balance in 'rock paper scissors'. Also the Leotard decks are in the mix as well.

[Skyl3lazer]

Played last night at a 4 round event

I was on 2x Manabond, 4x Depths, GQs, and a mainboard ancient tomb, and none of the field's matchups felt unwinnable. Big Red and High Tide were the roughest, but sideboard of 4x sphere and 2x CotV combied with a way more reliable t2/3 lage made them feel fine. I think we can adjust to be a bit faster to respond to a more combo heavy meta (we are a combo deck after all), and just have a sideboard that forces them to play our game.

I'm thinking I want to fit a Warping Wail or two into the SB for drs and various combo decks now. Right now I'm running

2x Tireless Tracker
4x Sphere
2x Chalice
2x Sweepers (heaven//earth will be mine when its legal I think, Kozi's return for now)
3x Enchantment/Artifact removal (Currently 1x Grip 1x Grudge 1x Back to Nature)
Bog
Karakas

I'm going to move the Bog back main, and probably cut to 1x Sweeper or 2x Ench/Artifact removal, and put two Warping Wail.

[Dice_Box]

I don’t know which prediction is worse that lands needs to evolve or that we are now on the same level as dredge.
You are reading what I am saying literally not as an example.


I think the 'rock paper scissors' analogy is wrong. Because if Scissors starts with Deathrite Shaman and gimps Rock’s starting hand than there is no “true” balance in 'rock paper scissors'. Also the Leotard decks are in the mix as well.DRS is a speedbump, he is not a single card deck killer. Since we should have at least 5 ways to kill him (I have 8) I do not feel he is the worlds biggest issue. Personally I would rather face DRS over TNN or Prelate.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

@Sky13lazer I was playing a really similar build online yesterday (- karakas, - k-return, + 1 grip, + tomb in the side and second tranq main) and it felt pretty good. I do want the second k-return but two trackers felt good and I wanted all the rocks when playing against combo so cutting the 4th grip makes sense on paper. I'm still super-wary about doing that in RG though. Tomb didn't do much for me yesterday but I like having it as an option for now at least.

[alionamongstmen]

Hello, long time lurker finally decided to join to get in on this brave new world.

Im going to an 80 person tourny this weekend, thought Id share the list Im bringing:

4 Mox Diamond
4 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
4 Gamble
1 Manabond
1 Molten Vortex
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Life from the Loam
2 Punishing Fire
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Taiga
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

1 Chalice of the Void
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
1 Golgari Charm
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Krosan Grip
1 Trinisphere
2 Thought-Knot Seer

Im open to thoughts & opinions, but I want to keep my cards close to my chest so to speak until after the tournament. Lets say we're playing for keeps :)

[djxstream]

Hello, long time lurker finally decided to join to get in on this brave new world.

Im going to an 80 person tourny this weekend, thought Id share the list Im bringing:

4 Mox Diamond
4 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
4 Gamble
1 Manabond
1 Molten Vortex
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Life from the Loam
2 Punishing Fire
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Taiga
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

1 Chalice of the Void
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
1 Golgari Charm
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Krosan Grip
1 Trinisphere
2 Thought-Knot Seer

Im open to thoughts & opinions, but I want to keep my cards close to my chest so to speak until after the tournament. Lets say we're playing for keeps :)

How has that mana config worked out for you with black mana? I'm on the black splash, but no groves, so I have more fetches to grab my single bayou (6 fetches vs your 4)

For the most part with the different configs I've played, if i'm playing Abrupt decay, I dont play Manabond. just my 2 cents on that.

Big fan of Collective Brutality! Man does it do wok vs burn, as well as being another way to get rid of DRS.

Reasoning for Golgari Charm over Toxic Deluge? How is Thougt-knot treating you, what do you bring it in for?

I'm interested to try your config, it looks solid, but I love my Tireless Trackers and Thoughtseizes too much.

Good luck.

[alionamongstmen]

How has that mana config worked out for you with black mana? I'm on the black splash, but no groves, so I have more fetches to grab my single bayou (6 fetches vs your 4)

Ive gotten a Decay stuck in hand once or twice but it's not a big deal. You can always recur fetches. At this point they're only MD for Blood Moon and Animate Dead, anything else I don't worry about.

For the most part with the different configs I've played, if i'm playing Abrupt decay, I dont play Manabond. just my 2 cents on that.

That's the common line of thought, yes. I find though that if I have Manabond in my opener with enough lands it doesn't matter what I'm discarding, I'm probably going to be on a different gameplan than Decay.

Reasoning for Golgari Charm over Toxic Deluge? How is Thougt-knot treating you, what do you bring it in for?


Charm is more broad, able to kill Enchantments and TNN. Deluge is definitely a better sweeper but the deck is cold to Moon, B2B, RIP, and Leyline.
TKS is just a solid disruptive creature. He comes out T2 more often than you'd think, exiles a card and puts a clock on the opponent.
Right now I don't worry bout Delver, Elves, Infect, Burn, BUG, Maverick, or Deathblade. All I care about is being able to beat Blood Moon stompy and fast combo.

[gigapatrick]

I think Lands is at a point where the deck evolves or probably dies.

I’m interested if other people feel the same about Lands right now.

With Miracles gone we lose an annoying match up that’s good, but we see an increase in combo decks. This Meta change is normal since in a “new” Meta it’s always best to be linear and fast. The answer to combo decks were always different Delver versions and we can be sure that going forward we will see Deathrite Shaman in these decks. At the same time to the increasing numbers of Combo and Delver Leotard decks will hit hard.

If my prediction is correct and the top decks in the Meta will be “mostly” Combo, Deathrite/leotard and Deathrite/Delver. Traditional Lands will have a hard time vs a Meta like that.
Because even if Delver versions stays a positive matchup the rest of the field is going to be devastating and then we are big on the ‘match up lottery’.

It is extremely unlikely that we will see new cards printed that upgrade slots in the mainboard of R/G Lands. So the question is can Lands evolve with the Meta or are will we fall behind?

I really don't understand this reaction. The banning of Top is what has gotten me interested in this deck again. Now that we don't have to warp our boards to try to beat Miracles (which is awesome, because no strategy ever made me feel that the matchup was in any way favorable), we can go back up to six or seven combo hate pieces and we can probably shave a K-Grip effect for a board sweeper to deal with Prelate and Leovold.

Now, I can't say for sure what the new meta will shape up to look like, but I don't think Combo somehow gets out of hand. Delver and other fair decks packing Force of Will should see a decent uptick now that they don't have to deal with Miracles, and these decks have good matchups against combo. Luckily for us, we have good matchups against them. I predict that we will have a solid position within the meta, as long as we streamline towards the combo, since this is the best way to beat the graveyard hate that abounds right now.

[Crimhead]

How do you guys feel about only 2x EE (with no Intuitions or T. Wests)?

Is this reasonable (I will probably run BRing if I go this way) or should I shell out for the (seemingly overpriced) 3rd copy?

[Chatto]

Which sweepers do we have in both Red and Green?

[Rampart]

Which sweepers do we have in both Red and Green?

Fire Spout and Savage Twister

[Skyl3lazer]

Fire Spout and Savage Twister

Also now Heaven//Earth (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Heaven%20%2F%2F%20Earth), which kills delver on the front side and leovold/drs/etc on the back

[Chatto]

Fire Spout and Savage Twister

I like Firespout, thanks for the suggestion.


Also now Heaven//Earth (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Heaven%20%2F%2F%20Earth), which kills delver on the front side and leovold/drs/etc on the back

We also have Rolling Earthquake and Anger of the Gods, but I don't like the cmc of both cards, especially the X-part.

It has to be a clean cut. While there are exceptions, 3 damage takes almost every creature down.

[Lormador]

I think Lands is at a point where the deck evolves or probably dies.

I’m interested if other people feel the same about Lands right now.

With Miracles gone we lose an annoying match up that’s good, but we see an increase in combo decks. This Meta change is normal since in a “new” Meta it’s always best to be linear and fast. The answer to combo decks were always different Delver versions and we can be sure that going forward we will see Deathrite Shaman in these decks. At the same time to the increasing numbers of Combo and Delver Leotard decks will hit hard.

If my prediction is correct and the top decks in the Meta will be “mostly” Combo, Deathrite/leotard and Deathrite/Delver. Traditional Lands will have a hard time vs a Meta like that.
Because even if Delver versions stays a positive matchup the rest of the field is going to be devastating and then we are big on the ‘match up lottery’.

It is extremely unlikely that we will see new cards printed that upgrade slots in the mainboard of R/G Lands. So the question is can Lands evolve with the Meta or are will we fall behind?

That's a little silly, especially if you look at the particular combo decks that are doing well. Some of them are ones that Lands struggles with (SnS, Storm) but there's a lot of stuff that needs the graveyard (and can hence have games stolen for Crop Rot G1) or is Elves... and Elves is a fine MU if you can land a Tabernacle. Dredge is even a good MU, almost comically so... the deck isn't popular, but it is combo.

Postboard, 5 rocks and a Tomb and those combo decks have work to do. SnS remains as a nasty predator, but that ain't going to change. So I think the deck is fine, with the blue EE version perfectly defensible as a choice (as it has merit against the Leovold/TNN family).

[Skyl3lazer]

I like Firespout, thanks for the suggestion.



We also have Rolling Earthquake and Anger of the Gods, but I don't like the cmc of both cards, especially the X-part.

It has to be a clean cut. While there are exceptions, 3 damage takes almost every creature down.

The big advantage here is that Earth can be cast from the GY, so you can dredge without fear of losing the sweeper.

[Chatto]

The big advantage here is that Earth can be cast from the GY, so you can dredge without fear of losing the sweeper.

True, but still... The castingcost is bugging me.

[Skuttlespike]

Any thoughts in Faerie Macabre in the board?

BR reanimator (specifically Tidespout Tyrant) is a problem for me and this gets around chancellor and works on turn 0. It can also save cards from being Surgical-ed in an uncounterable way. Also has corner case use against Past in Flames and Deathrite Shaman.

[Ingo]

Any thoughts in Faerie Macabre in the board?

BR reanimator (specifically Tidespout Tyrant) is a problem for me and this gets around chancellor and works on turn 0. It can also save cards from being Surgical-ed in an uncounterable way. Also has corner case use against Past in Flames and Deathrite Shaman.

Faerie Macabre is better against BR Reanimator, but only when you hold it in hand, which is neglectible as a one-of. As you'll usually gamble for such one-of cards, Chancellor isn't really an argument, and I prefer Surgical Extraction for such an effect (for example its great in the mirror, and I think we'll see a whole lot of Lands being played).

[U_mage]

Im going to an 80 person tourny this weekend

Is that the one in columbia MO? I'm going too lol

bringing this, another group I'm in suggested swapping the b-ring and vortex since I'm on manabonds, which I think I'm going to do (also something about adding the 4th pfire but I'm not sure where I'd fit it)

depths 4
stage 4
wasteland 4
port 3
GQ 1
fetches 3
grove 4
taiga 2
forest 1
chasm 1
bog 1
thicket 1
canopy 1
tabernacle 1
karakas 1
maze 3

exploration 4
manabond 2
gamble 4
rotation 4
diamond 4
loam 4
punishing fire 3
vortex 1

SB:
chalice 2
sphere of resistance 4
barbarian ring 1
krosan grip 3
seismic assault 1
tracker 4

[Skuttlespike]

Does anyone have a list of decks that they would bring Tireless Tracker in against now that Miracles and Shardless are pretty much gone?

[alionamongstmen]

Is that the one in columbia MO? I'm going too lol

Haha yep! List looks good! Ill be the one in cowboy boots and a long beard with a Guru forest in my deck

[djxstream]

Does anyone have a list of decks that they would bring Tireless Tracker in against now that Miracles and Shardless are pretty much gone?

Storm, blood moon and other Depths decks.

So many times I've beaten red stompy or similar that put all its faith in winning via a blood moon, while I was able to attack with a growing threat multiple times.

And the in the mirror/turbo depths it becomes a chess game, esp with turbo depths and the ole Elvish spirit guide / crop rotation move that always gets me. Id rather put my faith in tracker to win those.

vs Storm just to get a clock / make ad naseum less powerful

[alionamongstmen]

Does anyone have a list of decks that they would bring Tireless Tracker in against now that Miracles and Shardless are pretty much gone?

I like tracker but Im gonna test Bob + Volrath's Stronghold and a RGw build with KotR and Canonist, maybe Containment Priest

[bonkotsu]

This is random and semi related to this thread, but I am looking for a 75. Player named darkwonyx (unsure if the same as the hearthstone player or not) was on mtgo playing RGU lands. Ran new Nissa, Chandra, and Dack. If you are there, looking for your 75, I only got a screen shot from a surgical to see post board cards, unsure whats main and side.

[Wiktul]

Seems like this mill Performance is a new toy of Storm against us. A friend of mine have just lost in local event to this card. Any ideas, considering that this would somehow become a common threat, not occasional silver bulet?

[Ingo]

Seems like this mill Performance is a new toy of Storm against us. A friend of mine have just lost in top4 in today's event in London (100 players) to this card. Any ideas, considering that this would somehow become a common threat, not occasional silver bulet?

If it becomes a common threat, we could board in Trackers as well, we have plenty of cards to board out in that matchup.

[Lormador]

Phyrexian Revoker is also great in this matchup, naming LED or Lotus Petal. Telemin Performance isn't going to be a reliable kill and probably won't stick around for long. That's my guess.

[filln]

If it becomes a common threat, we could board in Trackers as well, we have plenty of cards to board out in that matchup.

I like boarding in Tracker regardless of Telemin or not. Provides a clock and sometimes their life total matters if they end up using AdNaus. And like you said, tons of cards to take out of the main anyway.

[Chatto]

Emrakul is another old tech against mill-strategies, and you're even able to cast Emrakul when you go to the late game.

[Epeirogeny]

So clearly combo is becoming a larger portion of the meta now that miracles is gone.

This is bad for Lands. Sneak and Show is terrible for us. Storm decks are terrible for us. We have no force of Will and basically have no interaction.

I will be playing 4 Sphere of resistance and 2 chalice sideboard now. But having thoughts about changing the main board

Any ideas anyone?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Epeirogeny]

Heaven // Earth might have some potential

I like Anger of the Gods better. 3 mana vs 5 mana. Yet, the inability to cast it out of the graveyard is also a thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kravkenov]

Just made top4 (out of 73 players) with RG Explosives.
I will write a report in the couple of hours to tell a bit deeply how this tournament goes.
For the moment, here's the decks I fought during these 7 Swiss rounds + top 8 :
R1 2-1 UR Delver (1-0-0)
R2 2-1 Aggro Loam 4C (2-0-0)
R3 2-1 Sneak Show (3-0-0)
R4 1-1 Grixis Delver (3-0-1)
R5 2-1 Eldrazi (4-0-1)
R6 2-0 Foodchain (5-0-1)
R7 ID into top8 (5-0-2)

After the Swiss rounds my buddy were placed first with 19pts, and I was second with 17pts.

1/4 Burn 2-1 (an epic game)
1/2 split because it was time to go home and take care of my kids.


Report here : http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31632-Top-4-with-Lands-at-Geneva-Legacy-9-(mkm-trial)&p=1005211&viewfull=1#post1005211

[alionamongstmen]

Tried out a different list at the win a lotus tourny, didnt do so great ending 4-3 but I think a lot of that had to do with me as a player, not the deck.

I beat Grixis Delver, BUG Delver, RUG Lands, and Burn. Lost to Eldrazi, Infect, and Food Chain.

4 Mox Diamond
4 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
3 Gamble
3 Molten Vortex
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Life from the Loam
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Tabernacle
3 Taiga
4 Thespian's Stage
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

1 Chalice
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Thoughtseize
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tireless Tracker

The MD crucible felt really good. I didnt miss the 4th Loam or the 4th Gamble. Loam is usually my first Gamble target anyway and Gamble is a bad topdeck. I didnt see the Deluges often enough to see if it was the right call but I dont remember really wishing I saw one so I think cutting them moving forward is correct. Sideboard felt good too, never drew a Thoughtseize but Sphere and Tracker both won a few games. Spellbomb probably singlehandedly won game 2 vs Lands, but Im not sure if there is something higher impact I could replace it with.

The matches I lost were all 1-2 and I made some dumb mistakes. Against Eldrazi I forgot a maze activation wich cost me game 3 and against Infect I got greedy and played a Stage when I had a Maze in hand, giving him a one turn window to kill me. He did. Part of that can be attributed to the 7hr drive, some to just inexperience as this was my first big tourny and 2nd in the past 6 months. Looking back there were some games I wish I had a second chance on but it's not the deck's fault. RGb feels really strong, there are a few changes Id like to make but it'll be a while before I get a chance to play again.

[Claymore]

Emrakul is another old tech against mill-strategies, and you're even able to cast Emrakul when you go to the late game.

Giving Storm an Emrakul seems...bad. Unless you can go get Karakas real quick. Best bet is probably Tireless Tracker or Pyroblast effects.

[Chatto]

Giving Storm an Emrakul seems...bad. Unless you can go get Karakas real quick. Best bet is probably Tireless Tracker or Pyroblast effects.

Say what now? Does this new mill-effect give your opponent your creature? In that case, I was referring to 'normal' mill-effects, not this new one. My bad.

[Claymore]

Yeah, it's a Bribery that mills the opponent if it doesn't find anything.

Telemin Performance

[djxstream]

Gamble is a bad topdeck.

A tutor is a bad topdeck? Interesting theory.

If your hand is light, that means you likely dont have loam, so gamble for loam and dont care if you discard it.

If your hand is heavy, that means it's likely padded with lands that you've loamed back and haven't played or it's fill of dead cards, in which case, you can turn gamble into any card you want with less fear of discarding it.

[Skyl3lazer]

Stuff

I can't think that in our deck built around Loam game 1 that cutting 2 copies of it is a good idea.

[Ciubulu]

I was looking at the new meta emerged from mkm series and there are 50% of easy to win mu's and 50% of fuc*ing combo decks...What about adding 4 more tutors g1 in the form of entomb? We should be faster than usual and fight combo with speed g1 and hate g2/g3... we also will have access to new tools for our sb like chains of Mephistopheles (a couple just to make the deck cheaper [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]) and deluge for leovold and tnn [emoji848]

[alionamongstmen]

A tutor is a bad topdeck? Interesting theory.

If your hand is light, that means you likely dont have loam, so gamble for loam and dont care if you discard it.

If your hand is heavy, that means it's likely padded with lands that you've loamed back and haven't played or it's fill of dead cards, in which case, you can turn gamble into any card you want with less fear of discarding it.

Im familiar with that much yes, just when testing I found that Id use loam for cycling lands and vortex food much of the time. So my hand would be pretty empty and when I cycled into a Gamble all I could find was another loam. Could be Im doing it wrong, my results were less than stellar.

I figure a good hand to be Mox or Exploration and some business and 6 shots at having loam felt pretty good. But I rarely want to just start dredging turn 2 as I could run the risk of dredging a Vortex or Decay. That's the risk of not running Punishing Fire I suppose.

I did manage to make some great boardstates with Crucible + Exploration + Vortex, where I either fetch, quarter, or wasteland, loam, feed them to vortex, then play them back out from the graveyard for next turn. Seems like the dream but it happens to some degree when you're drawing 2-3 extra cards a turn and dredging. I usually at some point would stumble upon Lage but I seem to do better when trying to lock the game up by destroying all their lands and killing all their creatures instead of going for a quick kill.

I believe I had 3 games where I won and my opponent didnt have a permanent in play.

[non-inflammable]

I found that Id use loam for cycling lands and vortex food much of the time. So my hand would be pretty empty....

if vortex gets you hell-bent faster: sea gate wreckage was suggested a while back when it was first spoiled.
i'd love to be drawing two cards per turn and not dredging important cards away.

[kravkenov]

I think the meta will still adapt, Legacy has a lot of inertia and everything move slowly. But I agree, combo decks will be more present than they was in the pre Sensei's Top ban area and Lands will have to adapt to stay competitive. The maindeck is already strong, good streamlined and can kill pretty fast. The focus should maybe more pointed on fast soft-lock piece instead of soft-control piece, and of course the sideboard should give us a good edge against Storm and Show-Tell which are IMO our futur main concern.

[alionamongstmen]

if vortex gets you hell-bent faster: sea gate wreckage was suggested a while back when it was first spoiled.
i'd love to be drawing two cards per turn and not dredging important cards away.

I forgot that card existed, might have to try it!

[Ingo]

I think the meta will still adapt, Legacy has a lot of inertia and everything move slowly. But I agree, combo decks will be more present than they was in the pre Sensei's Top ban area and Lands will have to adapt to stay competitive. The maindeck is already strong, good streamlined and can kill pretty fast. The focus should maybe more pointed on fast soft-lock piece instead of soft-control piece, and of course the sideboard should give us a good edge against Storm and Show-Tell which are IMO our futur main concern.

It’s probably normal there’s much combo now, with Legacy being unpredictable now a fast comboplan seems a good choice until the dust settles.

But was Miracles really that unfavorable for combo? I had the impression that especially fair decks were preyed upon by Miracles, as they gave Miracles more time to setup full control. If I think of ‘combopolice’, I rather think of Delver or D&T. So I don’t think there should be a direct link between no Miracles and more combo.

There could be a secondary link though, depending on which decks fill the Miracles-void. If it’s all decks with a bad combo-matchup (suddenly popping up because Terminus pushed them out), combo will come to prey on them. But if the gap gets filled with Delver-variants, we might see the opposite.

[kravkenov]

Miracle was playing somethings like 6-7 counters + 4 Counterbalance maindeck, and several Flusterstorm/Pyroblast in the sideboard, which is enough to keep combo in check. Now it's the turn of Delver deck to act as the combopolice. But yeah, fast Marit Lage is the best bet while the Legacy metagame still adapt.

My recent Top 4 with my 3 Thespian / 2 Depths configuration is a bit of luck as I dodged almost all ShowTell/Reanimator/Storm deck in my run to the Top 8. There a lucky Glacial Chasm against Burn give me my first Top 4, but clearly I should have run more Stage/Depths in this meta.

[Amfibolos]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the family as I have finished building the deck last Friday.
I have been playing against lands for a very long time so I knew in theory how to use it and decided to give it a try last Sunday in Mega GPT Las Vegas in Birmingham.

The list I played was:

1x Barbarian Ring
4x Crop Rotation
4x Dark Depths
4x Exploration
1x Forest
4x Gamble
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Karakas
4x Life from the Loam
1x Manabond
2x Maze of Ith
1x Molten Vortex
4x Mox Diamond
4x Punishing Fire
1x Riftstone Portal
4x Rishadan Port
2x Taiga
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Thespian's Stage
1x Tranquil Thicket
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

Sideboard:

2x Volcanic Fallout
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Chalice of the Void
2x Krosan Grip
1x Nissa, Vital Force
4x Sphere of Resistance
3x Tireless Tracker


My final score was 5-3

1 round Turbo Depths 2-0
First game was quick as my opponent played Depths even though I had thepsian in play. I suspected that he can accelerate somehow but sill
I copied it at the end of his turn to which in response he crop rotated for thespian and did the same. But I had a silver bullet in the form of karakas.
I crop rotated for it and returen his Marit and went for lethal.
Second game was much longer as after I have established combo and tried to go off at the end of his turn he rotated for thespian and gained hos own as well.
In addition he alredy had played needle on karakas. So I have started destroying his manabase and kept basics in check with ports.
I played tracker and started cracking clues to dig for artifact hate. Finally I found gamble and went for ancient grudge wich got discarded so I just used flashback, then crop rotated for Karakas.

2 round Storm 2-1
I know how bad this match up is so i came prepared.
First game was quick on his side as he killed me turn 3.
I sided in all hate I could.
In game 2 I kept a hand with mox and sphere. That bought me some time and several turns later instead of dredging I top decked chalice and played it on 1 which won me the game.
Game three I found on my opening hand Chalice and sphere but no acceleration but kept it since even if he would have casted Duress I would still have something.
turned out he started with Ponder and Tormods Crypt. I played Chalice on 0 and in my second turn sphere which again won me the game.

3 round Infect 0-2
As I mentioned before I'm still new to the deck and I made bad choices in this match up.
1 game I got flooded by 5 creatures with infect.
2 game he was fast enough with help in the form of invigorate and become immense when I tried to burn his agent.

4 round Bug Delver 1-2
First game was quick as I established control with Wastelands and Molten Vortex. His delver didn't flip for 2 or 3 turns and when I got 4th mana source I went for the kill.
2 game was preety close. I kept good hand but he had answers and so my Mox got destroyed. Fires got extracted. Grove was already wasted. I was on 6 life after he attacked with flipped delver, then he played 2nd delver and passed turn. I had to create a Token and try to win but unfortunately he did as expected and used Shaman to go to 21 life and next turn his second delver flipped.
3 game he got divine draws and I quite the opposite. He got delver dearthrite Clique, Liliana, Surgicals, Wastelands, abrupts, everything he needed to keep me in check.

5 round Maverick 2-0
I started with a good hand with mox, loam, and tabernacle, wasteland, karakas, exploration, pFire.
I killed his Mother XD, and then wastelocked him.
Second game was preety much the same.

6 round Helm of Obedience Combo 0-1-1
First game I kept decent hand but he had better as he started with 3 leyline (including Void)
then crop rotated for a land that provides mana for each enchantment and played helm and killed me turn 3.
Second game I made a terrible mistake as I forgot to side in Trackers...
I kept him in check for a very long time but he managed to cast runed halo on marit Lage.
I had one last krosan somewhere and when I got gamble I made second grave mistake this game and gambled for it
without loaming first to get more cards on hand and of course grip got discarded and had no means of geting this win.

7 round Eldrazi 2-0
First game was very quick on my side. I kept his creatures in check with vortex and won in 5th or 6th round.
Second game was slower he played lots of hate which increased casting cost but my tracker bought lots of cards and
I kept his manabase in check which bought me time to get marit lage even though he was on 2 life already.

8 round Death & Taxes 1-1-0
First game was quick as he kept a good hand for his creatures but all volnurable to wasteland, which I had backed by Loam hence I wastelocked him and went for the kill
with marit after several turns.
Game two was also very long as he used swords on Marit. I Destroyed all his eqipments but he had 2 RIPs and 2 vials to keep future marit in check.
We went to extra turns and imagine that I went through 45 cards in the deck, had like 15 lands in play, Nissa with emblem and still I cound not find molten vortex and 2 remaining pFires and 3 trackers. Yeah...

I was 41st in the end. But I was very happy nonetheless. I know what I did wrong so now I have to rememeber it and keep practicing.
There are two more GPTs Las Vegas in May so keep your fingers crossd :D.

Cheers!

[jarvisyu]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the family as I have finished building the deck last Friday.
I have been playing against lands for a very long time so I knew in theory how to use it and decided to give it a try last Sunday in Mega GPT Las Vegas in Birmingham.

The list I played was:

1x Barbarian Ring
4x Crop Rotation
4x Dark Depths
4x Exploration
1x Forest
4x Gamble
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Karakas
4x Life from the Loam
1x Manabond
2x Maze of Ith
1x Molten Vortex
4x Mox Diamond
4x Punishing Fire
1x Riftstone Portal
4x Rishadan Port
2x Taiga
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Thespian's Stage
1x Tranquil Thicket
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

Sideboard:

2x Volcanic Fallout
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Chalice of the Void
2x Krosan Grip
1x Nissa, Vital Force
4x Sphere of Resistance
3x Tireless Tracker


My final score was 5-3

1 round Turbo Depths 2-0
First game was quick as my opponent played Depths even though I had thepsian in play. I suspected that he can accelerate somehow but sill
I copied it at the end of his turn to which in response he crop rotated for thespian and did the same. But I had a silver bullet in the form of karakas.
I crop rotated for it and returen his Marit and went for lethal.
Second game was much longer as after I have established combo and tried to go off at the end of his turn he rotated for thespian and gained hos own as well.
In addition he alredy had played needle on karakas. So I have started destroying his manabase and kept basics in check with ports.
I played tracker and started cracking clues to dig for artifact hate. Finally I found gamble and went for ancient grudge wich got discarded so I just used flashback, then crop rotated for Karakas.

2 round Storm 2-1
I know how bad this match up is so i came prepared.
First game was quick on his side as he killed me turn 3.
I sided in all hate I could.
In game 2 I kept a hand with mox and sphere. That bought me some time and several turns later instead of dredging I top decked chalice and played it on 1 which won me the game.
Game three I found on my opening hand Chalice and sphere but no acceleration but kept it since even if he would have casted Duress I would still have something.
turned out he started with Ponder and Tormods Crypt. I played Chalice on 0 and in my second turn sphere which again won me the game.

3 round Infect 0-2
As I mentioned before I'm still new to the deck and I made bad choices in this match up.
1 game I got flooded by 5 creatures with infect.
2 game he was fast enough with help in the form of invigorate and become immense when I tried to burn his agent.

4 round Bug Delver 1-2
First game was quick as I established control with Wastelands and Molten Vortex. His delver didn't flip for 2 or 3 turns and when I got 4th mana source I went for the kill.
2 game was preety close. I kept good hand but he had answers and so my Mox got destroyed. Fires got extracted. Grove was already wasted. I was on 6 life after he attacked with flipped delver, then he played 2nd delver and passed turn. I had to create a Token and try to win but unfortunately he did as expected and used Shaman to go to 21 life and next turn his second delver flipped.
3 game he got divine draws and I quite the opposite. He got delver dearthrite Clique, Liliana, Surgicals, Wastelands, abrupts, everything he needed to keep me in check.

5 round Maverick 2-0
I started with a good hand with mox, loam, and tabernacle, wasteland, karakas, exploration, pFire.
I killed his Mother XD, and then wastelocked him.
Second game was preety much the same.

6 round Helm of Obedience Combo 0-1-1
First game I kept decent hand but he had better as he started with 3 leyline (including Void)
then crop rotated for a land that provides mana for each enchantment and played helm and killed me turn 3.
Second game I made a terrible mistake as I forgot to side in Trackers...
I kept him in check for a very long time but he managed to cast runed halo on marit Lage.
I had one last krosan somewhere and when I got gamble I made second grave mistake this game and gambled for it
without loaming first to get more cards on hand and of course grip got discarded and had no means of geting this win.

7 round Eldrazi 2-0
First game was very quick on my side. I kept his creatures in check with vortex and won in 5th or 6th round.
Second game was slower he played lots of hate which increased casting cost but my tracker bought lots of cards and
I kept his manabase in check which bought me time to get marit lage even though he was on 2 life already.

8 round Death & Taxes 1-1-0
First game was quick as he kept a good hand for his creatures but all volnurable to wasteland, which I had backed by Loam hence I wastelocked him and went for the kill
with marit after several turns.
Game two was also very long as he used swords on Marit. I Destroyed all his eqipments but he had 2 RIPs and 2 vials to keep future marit in check.
We went to extra turns and imagine that I went through 45 cards in the deck, had like 15 lands in play, Nissa with emblem and still I cound not find molten vortex and 2 remaining pFires and 3 trackers. Yeah...

I was 41st in the end. But I was very happy nonetheless. I know what I did wrong so now I have to rememeber it and keep practicing.
There are two more GPTs Las Vegas in May so keep your fingers crossd :D.

Cheers!

You can't Runed Halo 'Marit Lage'. It isn't a card.

[Chatto]

You can't Runed Halo 'Marit Lage'. It isn't a card.

Because it's a token? I was under the impression it was possible, because it's about the name.

[filln]

Because it's a token? I was under the impression it was possible, because it's about the name.

It's not because it's a token, but rather because it's not a card. It's similar to how you can't use Pithing Needle/Phyrexian Revoker on a Clue token. If someday they released a card named "Clue", then you would be able to shut it (and the tokens) down.

[kravkenov]

Runed Halo

"You must choose the name of a card, not the name of a token. For example, you can't choose "Saproling" or "Voja." However, if a token happens to have the same name as a card (such as "Shapeshifter" or "Goldmeadow Harrier"), you can choose it."
2008-05-01, Gatherer Rulings

[Skyl3lazer]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-28C08XsAER6NH.jpg

My list for the Legacy Challenges in Richmond this weekend. Fast, with Tomb, 4x Depths, and double Manabond, and a lot of anti-combo in the side. Warping wail serves dual purpose in killing DRS and countering Show and Tell or Through the Breach sometimes. I'm going to stick with 2x sweepers and with Kozi's, just anticipating a bit of D&T, though it could be that Heaven//Earth is better for leovold at the moment. Also returning to Port to go along with the Spheres. Not sure if my numbers are perfect here, 3 ports seems weird, but I definitely want the rest of my cards Main, so we'll see.

[Cfetchcaviar]

Warping wail does not counter through the breach.

[Chatto]

It's not because it's a token, but rather because it's not a card. It's similar to how you can't use Pithing Needle/Phyrexian Revoker on a Clue token. If someday they released a card named "Clue", then you would be able to shut it (and the tokens) down.


Runed Halo

"You must choose the name of a card, not the name of a token. For example, you can't choose "Saproling" or "Voja." However, if a token happens to have the same name as a card (such as "Shapeshifter" or "Goldmeadow Harrier"), you can choose it."
2008-05-01, Gatherer Rulings

Thank you for the clarification :smile:

On another note: so are we back on Ports again?

[Alexeezay]

With 2 Manabond I would definitely choose Ghost Quarter over Rishadan Port. You can out-waste people super quickly and it's gonna be more powerful than using a Port. Also, with Elves and Delver on the rise I like Ghost Quarter more. GQ can still do the job vs Combo, they play only 1 basic or 2 maximum of one type.
I've been liking a few Hull Breach recently as Disenchant effects in the Sideboard. Destroying Chalice + Leyline, Chalice + Blood Moon or Rest in Peace + Sword of Fire and Ice seems pretty good.

[Skyl3lazer]

Warping wail does not counter through the breach.

Huh, it is an instant isn't it. Well, Infernal Tutor / Show and Tell / whatever

[Skyl3lazer]

With 2 Manabond I would definitely choose Ghost Quarter over Rishadan Port. You can out-waste people super quickly and it's gonna be more powerful than using a Port. Also, with Elves and Delver on the rise I like Ghost Quarter more. GQ can still do the job vs Combo, they play only 1 basic or 2 maximum of one type.
I've been liking a few Hull Breach recently as Disenchant effects in the Sideboard. Destroying Chalice + Leyline, Chalice + Blood Moon or Rest in Peace + Sword of Fire and Ice seems pretty good.

The biggest issue w/ GQ in those matchups is that using a land drop on a turn to not take them down a mana can often mean you lose. The first 2-3 turns are the ones you have the most trouble surviving, and GQ plan doesn't start actually killing lands until #3 or 4 against those decks.

[Crimhead]

I was looking at the new meta emerged from mkm series and there are 50% of easy to win mu's and 50% of fuc*ing combo decks...
If those combo decks include a lot of Elves (good mu for us) and Storm (quite beatable) that might not be bad overall.

[Ingo]

If those combo decks include a lot of Elves (good mu for us) and Storm (quite beatable) that might not be bad overall.

Infect is favorable too, if you count it as a combodeck. Dredge as well, and it's more resilient to extraction than Reanimator so perhaps we'll see an uptick in that.
BR Reanimator is in my opinion also a less unfavorable matchup than UB Reanimator, because they often combo a Chancellor in play instead of Griselbrand, and chances are good you'll just maze him off. Whereas UB has the cantrips to almost always reanimate Griselbrand/Tidespout.

[Alexeezay]

Skyl3lazer: Everything what you say is true, I just think that if you are already running 2 Manabond, then Ghost Quarter is the way to go. Same goes for Horizon Canopy over a Tranquil Thicket.

We shouldn't read too much into the results so far because the new meta is super fresh. But it doesn't look too bad honestly.

[Skyl3lazer]

Skyl3lazer: Everything what you say is true, I just think that if you are already running 2 Manabond, then Ghost Quarter is the way to go. Same goes for Horizon Canopy over a Tranquil Thicket.

We shouldn't read too much into the results so far because the new meta is super fresh. But it doesn't look too bad honestly.

I could definitely see the case for Canopy over Thicket, I just don't happen to own one at the moment :tongue:

That said even with manabond, I'm assuming that I'm only going to get 1 loam off before a combo deck could be killing me. In that instance I'd want port over GQ.

[Crimhead]

That said even with manabond, I'm assuming that I'm only going to get 1 loam off before a combo deck could be killing me. In that instance I'd want port over GQ.

Agreed. As far as combo goes, Ports > GQs. Ports are fantastic with Manabond besides.

[inevitablepnut]

splash of black, entomb instead of gamble, volrath's stronghold, and leovold? thoughts?

[Dice_Box]

splash of black, entomb instead of gamble, volrath's stronghold, and leovold? thoughts?
So Jund Depths with Leo? Not sure that would work.

[inevitablepnut]

So Jund Depths with Leo? Not sure that would work.

Idk that it would work either.. The thought behind it is that it leo just slows your opponent immensely. then again it may just be trying to do to much.

[Wiktul]

After some hard playtesting I'm giving a try to a single Sylvan Library main. When our faster combo is our best plan g1 it works as semi-Manabond without a need of a prayer for the perfect hand. Later in the game it allows us to adapt to boardstate, when acceleration or tutors become crucial and we don't need to hesitate so much before each dredge. As sideboarding can be quite tricky with still shifting meta, it really shines in g2 and g3. With so much outcome and confidence gained from it, I won't hesitate to make it my 61'st if that would be the case ;)

[inevitablepnut]

I've been seeing alot of lists running ancient tomb. Is this effective after playtesting? Are we shifting towards that and 2 manabond lists?

[djxstream]

I've been seeing alot of lists running ancient tomb. Is this effective after playtesting? Are we shifting towards that and 2 manabond lists?

It increases the odds to landing a sphere/thorn/chalice on t1. Instead of relying on a mox, you can cast it with the tomb or crop rotate for it.

It also could get you to make marit lage on 3 lands.

[Skyl3lazer]

So I was going to write more about the GP Richmond side events but I'm super lazy so you get a short summary. My list was as below, but with the following changes:

-1 Taiga
-1 Tranquil Thicket
+1 Karakas
+1 Horizon Canopy

SB
-1 Karakas
+1 Warping Wail

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-28C08XsAER6NH.jpg

The meta was fairly combo-heavy, but I personally played against mostly fair decks (8/11 times), with my combo being UB, BR Reanimator, and 1 Omnitell.

BR Reanimator, I won the die roll and knew what he was on, so it was an easy matchup.

UB Reanimator was interesting. I ended up 2-0 in two very long games involving a Blazing Archon and a 40/39 Tireless Tracker. Mainboard we have the same outs as usual, and a fast combo + bog on rotation is usually enough. Postboard, the Warping Wails were absolutely amazing - I got to turn 1 Warping Wail a Reanimate, followed by a T2 rotate for bog in response to Exhume. Ideally those would be reversed, but the mana wasn't there if I rotated turn 1.

Omnitell is still a joke matchup, I can't imagine we're more than 10% to win that. Warping Wail makes it better postboard, but they still have force. Best bet is to stay fast and try to luck into it.

Elves matchup really showed the power of Tomb. Game one we're faster than usual, so the matchup is pretty OK. Game 2 I got to go T1 Land -> Exploration -> Land -> Rotate -> Tomb -> Chalice on 1, GG. Between the turn earlier Marit Lage and additional T1 lock piece option, this matchup feels really heavily in our favor now.

Overall against the rest of the field I just felt very favored. I think for this weekend Heaven//Earth might have been slightly better SB than the Kozilek's Returns, but it didn't really come up. I liked my suite of hate removal - grudge is amazing against SFM decks of any flavor, and Back to Nature helped make some very negative Humility matchups much more winnable. Only reason I didn't get a list on SCG was because I gave my opponent the byes for the main event on Friday, which meant he was the '5-0'.

It was a good time and I'm looking forward to Eternal Weekend, and seeing how the meta adjusts. Even this weekend there were some spicy brews around that weren't combo. I saw a UW Humility deck, and 4 color Atraxa Nicfit.

[filln]

40/39 Tireless Tracker

:eek:

I'm surprised you didn't draw out your entire library!

[Skyl3lazer]

:eek:

I'm surprised you didn't draw out your entire library!

The punishing fire left in my deck was in the bottom 5 cards, but my opponent was at 4.

[Noctalor]

Yesterday we had the first big event (130 players) since Top got axed, and I won it with this list

// 60 Maindeck
// 4 Artifact
4 Mox Diamond

// 6 Enchantment
4 Exploration
1 Manabond
1 Molten Vortex

// 8 Instant
4 Crop Rotation
4 Punishing Fire

// 34 Land
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas
2 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Maze of Ith
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Windswept Heath
1 Barbarian Ring

// 8 Sorcery
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam


// 15 Sideboard
// 7 Artifact
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance

// 2 Creature
SB: 2 Tireless Tracker

// 5 Instant
SB: 4 Krosan Grip

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Ancient Tomb

[kravkenov]

Yesterday we had the first big event (130 players) since Top got axed, and I won it [...].

Congrats !! Report needed ;)

[filln]

Such a clean list. Congrats! Any issues with only two fetch?

[Noctalor]

So, let's talk about the tournament.

I faced (not in order)

1 Dredge
1 Grixis Delver
1 URg Burn
1 Tezzerator
1 Team America
1 Elves
1 Deathblade
1 Death & Taxes

Dredge is beatlable if the opponent has no Ashen Rider or is not able to get it in time, I was able to permachasm in G3 and decided to mill my opponent despite having a tracker (which hard carryed the game) and a marit lage, had to spend 20 minutes just to avoid a firestorm when chasm was not online.
Elves is surely a combo we can beat, we both got a turn 2 post board and in the first game I was able to grind him into oblivion.
The URg burn mu was super fun, it was on stream if you want to watch it link (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/143357942)
Tezzarator was a nightmare, MD leyline and a turn 1 chalice got me in game one, I tried my best to beat it but I lost 1/2, I then managed to beat it in the top8 thanks to a tracker which carryed once again and a fast Marit Lage in the third game. If you want to see the swiss game it was streamed aswell link (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/143401836)
Team america was a lost surprisingly, I lost a 1/7 gamble for tabernacle and managed to lose game 1, won g2 easily and then lost to 2 stifles in a row on my 2 fetches, kinda tilting
Deathblade was a slaughter, it's a pretty easy MU imho.
Grixis delver was super close, managed to win despite getting loam and punishing extracted and a needle on thespian in G3.


The best cards in the SB were Trackers and Chalices, really performing when needed.
Barbarian ring has never been activeted during the entire event, it will get cut, moving either the bojuka or the tomb md
I think we need a single Heaven/Earth, grixis can be hard if we don't have a sweeper, and the card surely has a lot of value as a gamble target.


Such a clean list. Congrats! Any issues with only two fetch?

I'm not having mana problems at the moment, I'm currently 22/5 in tournaments with this list and mana has never been a big issue so far


Feel free to ask further questions

[Ingo]

So, let's talk about the tournament.

I faced (not in order)

1 Dredge
1 Grixis Delver
1 URg Burn
1 Tezzerator
1 Team America
1 Elves
1 Deathblade
1 Death & Taxes

The best cards in the SB were Trackers and Chalices, really performing when needed.
Barbarian ring has never been activeted during the entire event, it will get cut, moving either the bojuka or the tomb md
I think we need a single Heaven/Earth, grixis can be hard if we don't have a sweeper, and the card surely has a lot of value as a gamble target.

Feel free to ask further questions

Nice run Noctalor!
Since Chalice overperformed, in which matchups did you slot them in? I don't like them in multiples, so'd like to hear how they worked their magic for you.
How was the D&T Matchup? Apparently you didn't need Barbarian Ring.

[Wiktul]

According to your statement that Heaven // Earth could be a thing against Grixis Delver - are you aiming it at Delver, Pyromancer and tokens? If so, wouldn't Volcanic Fallout be a better option? I understand the synergy with dredge and Gamble that makes this new card considerable choice, but while getting overruned by those pesky little creatures I'd rather risk a badluck with Gamble than hope that my Grixis opponent won't be able to counter my only out from such situation.

[Noctalor]

According to your statement that Heaven // Earth could be a thing against Grixis Delver - are you aiming it at Delver, Pyromancer and tokens? If so, wouldn't Volcanic Fallout be a better option? I understand the synergy with dredge and Gamble that makes this new card considerable choice, but while getting overruned by those pesky little creatures I'd rather risk a badluck with Gamble than hope that my Grixis opponent won't be able to counter my only out from such situation.

The main issue from my experience is to deal with a pyromancer if we don't have a spot removal instantly, it can easily generate at least 2/3 tokens and we are not always able to mitigate that damage with pendrel, a single Heaven could potentially give us a gamble target to get out from this situation, or the card could already be in our graveyard, maybe even forcing a surgical on itself, if we have it in hand it can trade for a delver and if we need it in the graveyard it shouldn't be a problem to just cast the green part for 0.


Nice run Noctalor!
Since Chalice overperformed, in which matchups did you slot them in? I don't like them in multiples, so'd like to hear how they worked their magic for you.
How was the D&T Matchup? Apparently you didn't need Barbarian Ring.

Chalice was super good against:
dredge, preventing leds gave me enought time to stabilize, you dont really want to cotv@1 here because you need crop and gambles to win most likely
elves, which can't really afford to waste time to play around it against us
UR burn, you can see in the stream how I managed to stabilize at 4 HP in the second game and chalice was 99% the main reason
Deathblade, they run 1 to 0 decay atm, chalice on 1 makes marit lage a free win and it also hits their game plan pretty hard (most list are heavy on ponder at the moment)

I haven't boarded the card against non burn delvers, but maybe I should have, I like how it is simply an answer to surgical which happens to shut down one third of the opponent's deck as a "small bonus"


Taxes got pretty much demolished, I'm kinda heavy on removals, G1 I had a vortex in hand which is a free win, and in the second game I had the nuts, he started karakas go, holding rip, and my turn 1 was mox mox taiga crop wasteland loam, he never recovered.
I think that, unless Taxes is heavily played in your area, having gamble into Vortex/Heaven should be enought to deal with Prelate, I could be wrong but barbarian ring is out of my list at the moment, so far it felt too underwhelming against anything else to deserve a spot.

[Skyl3lazer]

According to your statement that Heaven // Earth could be a thing against Grixis Delver - are you aiming it at Delver, Pyromancer and tokens? If so, wouldn't Volcanic Fallout be a better option? I understand the synergy with dredge and Gamble that makes this new card considerable choice, but while getting overruned by those pesky little creatures I'd rather risk a badluck with Gamble than hope that my Grixis opponent won't be able to counter my only out from such situation.

Volcanic Fallout Does Not Kill Leovold

[Wiktul]

Volcanic Fallout Does Not Kill Leovold

Yes, and what about that? Heaven // Earth won't kill anything either when it's countered, what is very likely to happen against Delver decks, especially UR or Grixis, non of which contains Leovold, so I hardly see a point here ;)
I'm considering playing Heaven // Earth as one of in main to see how it goes, but I need to get some more data about my current meta before that.

[Layalouhamesh]

Yes, and what about that? Heaven // Earth won't kill anything either when it's countered, what is very likely to happen against Delver decks, especially UR or Grixis, non of which contains Leovold, so I hardly see a point here ;)
I'm considering playing Heaven // Earth as one of in main to see how it goes, but I need to get some more data about my current meta before that.

I tried Heaven//Earth at a small tournament, and I finally decided to remove it.
The point is that you mostly want it against decks that also pack things like Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void.
Therefore, it is a very bad draw if you want to sweep out the nonflying creatures, while a more standard sweeper would be more interesting.

Still, this line of thought is probably guided by the fact that there are numerous D&T in my meta.
Therefore, I think Kozilek's Return remains better.

[Ingo]

I tried Heaven//Earth at a small tournament, and I finally decided to remove it.
The point is that you mostly want it against decks that also pack things like Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void.
Therefore, it is a very bad draw if you want to sweep out the nonflying creatures, while a more standard sweeper would be more interesting.

Still, this line of thought is probably guided by the fact that there are numerous D&T in my meta.
Therefore, I think Kozilek's Return remains better.

If you include Heaven/Earth in the 75, I think it should be in the main, because of it's playability from the graveyard.
(EDIT: and not specifically with D&T in mind, because youre right, it wont sweep through RIP or Leyline).

[baboontilt]

A few sideboarding/build questions:

* Against Storm, do you generally Chalice on 0 or 1?
* Do you bring in Sphere of resistance against Elves?
* If you were going to dedicate 1 SB slot to D&T, would you prefer Molten Vortex, Seismic Assault, or Kozilek's Return? Assume a pretty stock main with 4 Punishing Fire/No Enchantments. As a follow-up to that question, would a 3/1 Split of Fires to Molten Vortex be better?

I'm headed to Louisville this weekend, trying to finalize my list after having not played Legacy since the GP earlier this year. I'm considering a rather heavy anti-combo board, something along the lines of:

4 Tracker
4 Chalice
3 Sphere
3 Grip
1 D&T Slot

[kravkenov]

A few sideboarding/build questions:

* Against Storm, do you generally Chalice on 0 or 1?
* Do you bring in Sphere of resistance against Elves?
* If you were going to dedicate 1 SB slot to D&T, would you prefer Molten Vortex, Seismic Assault, or Kozilek's Return? Assume a pretty stock main with 4 Punishing Fire/No Enchantments. As a follow-up to that question, would a 3/1 Split of Fires to Molten Vortex be better?

I'm headed to Louisville this weekend, trying to finalize my list after having not played Legacy since the GP earlier this year. I'm considering a rather heavy anti-combo board, something along the lines of:

4 Tracker
4 Chalice
3 Sphere
3 Grip
1 D&T Slot

Against storm I usually drop Chalice at 1. Of course it does impact our game plan but I think it slow Storm more than us and we can go faster with Mana denial backup.

Against Elves, usually do bring in Sphere ! Sphere will slow lot of its key-spell and might give a small window to assemble our kill.

Against D&T, I would definitly choose Molten Vortex, it is really huge in this MU.

I know I don't play the same sideboard than you, but anyway, here is my sideboard and my sideboarding plan for Storm, D&T and Elves. Maybe it will help you (PS I play 4 Molten and 0 Punishing Fire, but I think a split Punishing/Vortex is better, something like 3 Punishing and 1-2 Vortex).

4 Tireless Tracker
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Naturalize // Krosan Grip
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Walking Ballista

*** DEATH & TAXES ***
They will side-in Rest in Peace
Draw fast with Tracker, they can chump block all day long
+3 Grip +4 Tracker +3 Revoker (Vial/Mother) +1 Ballista
-4 Crop -1 Academy -1 Bojuka -1 Chasm -2 Maze -2 Thicket

*** ELVES ***
1. Find Tabernacle
2. Kill Elves (ASAP)
3. Wasteland/Port Gaeas
+3 Sphere +1 Chalice +3 Revoker (Insect/Shaman/Mana-producer) +1 Ballista
-1 Exploration -1 Bojuka -1 Karakas -2 Maze -1 Port -2 Thicket

*** STORM ***
1. Play your hate !
2. Mana Denial (Revoker, Chalice @0-1 and Explosives @0)
3. Combo off
+3 Sphere +1 Chalice +3 Revoker (LED/Petal)
-4 Vortex -1 Karakas -2 Maze
OTP +3 Tracker -1 Barbarian -1 Academy -1 Thicket

[Sparkii]

Against storm I usually drop Chalice at 1. Of course it does impact our game plan but I think it slow Storm more than us and we can go faster with Mana denial backup.

Against Elves, usually do bring in Sphere ! Sphere will slow lot of its key-spell and might give a small window to assemble our kill.

Against D&T, I would definitly choose Molten Vortex, it is really huge in this MU.

I know I don't play the same sideboard than you, but anyway, here is my sideboard and my sideboarding plan for Storm, D&T and Elves. Maybe it will help you (PS I play 4 Molten and 0 Punishing Fire, but I think a split Punishing/Vortex is better, something like 3 Punishing and 1-2 Vortex).

4 Tireless Tracker
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Naturalize // Krosan Grip
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Walking Ballista

*** DEATH & TAXES ***
They will side-in Rest in Peace
Draw fast with Tracker, they can chump block all day long
+3 Grip +4 Tracker +3 Revoker (Vial/Mother) +1 Ballista
-4 Crop -1 Academy -1 Bojuka -1 Chasm -2 Maze -2 Thicket

*** ELVES ***
1. Find Tabernacle
2. Kill Elves (ASAP)
3. Wasteland/Port Gaeas
+3 Sphere +1 Chalice +3 Revoker (Insect/Shaman/Mana-producer) +1 Ballista
-1 Exploration -1 Bojuka -1 Karakas -2 Maze -1 Port -2 Thicket

*** STORM ***
1. Play your hate !
2. Mana Denial (Revoker, Chalice @0-1 and Explosives @0)
3. Combo off
+3 Sphere +1 Chalice +3 Revoker (LED/Petal)
-4 Vortex -1 Karakas -2 Maze
OTP +3 Tracker -1 Barbarian -1 Academy -1 Thicket

I definitely disagree with boarding out crop rotations in the D&T matchup. It's often what you need to find your barbarian ring or the grove to get fires going. It's your emergency button and they have no interaction with it whatsoever. Also maze is great in the matchup, often buying you lots of time to find what you need.

Against D&T I usually find myself boarding:

-1 Bog
-1 Chasm
-2 Ghost Quarter
-1 Manabond
-1 Ancient Tomb

+3 Krosan Grip
+2 Revoker
+2 Warping Wail

I'm not playing any trackers right now, though.

I also like Chalice 0 against storm. Leaving gamble and crop rotation open is huge for us, and with LED out of the picture it makes it harder for them to get hellbent.

[The_Dingo]

A few sideboarding/build questions:

* Against Storm, do you generally Chalice on 0 or 1?
* Do you bring in Sphere of resistance against Elves?
* If you were going to dedicate 1 SB slot to D&T, would you prefer Molten Vortex, Seismic Assault, or Kozilek's Return? Assume a pretty stock main with 4 Punishing Fire/No Enchantments. As a follow-up to that question, would a 3/1 Split of Fires to Molten Vortex be better?

I'm headed to Louisville this weekend, trying to finalize my list after having not played Legacy since the GP earlier this year. I'm considering a rather heavy anti-combo board, something along the lines of:

4 Tracker
4 Chalice
3 Sphere
3 Grip
1 D&T Slot

My board is similar to yours.
4 tireless tracker
4 Sphere of resistance
3 krosan grip
2 chalice of the void
1 kozileks return
1 ancient tomb

Against storm I think chalice on 1 is generically better, but sometimes the opening hand has a lot of crop rotations or gambles, so I'll play the chalice on zero. I think it's still good, and IMO it makes mana denial with port a better plan.

I don't bring in spheres against elves because I think our tutors are very good in this MU and I don't want to tax them. They have no ways to interact with our lands, so chasm can buy us enough time to really go to town with mana denial and punishing fires.

I like to find room for 4 punishing fire and 1 molten vortex, just because I really like having a plethora of answers to an early DRS. If we're gonna be soft to combo game 1 I think we have to make up for it by beating the snot out of fair decks, which IMO means sufficient removal. 3/1 is probably probably fine though, and IMO better than 4/0.

I'm a big fan of K return as my DnT hate card, but this goes back to my obsession with playing a lot (too much?) removal. I like to bring in 4 trackers, 3 grips and the K return. I board out 1 chasm, 1 bog, 1 karakas (if it's main), 2 dark depths (down to 2 copies) 1 thespians stage, 1 manabond, and 1 cycling land (or gamble). I think it's a little unorthodox to board out so many copies of the combo, but I usually take a very controlling approach to the MU since going for an early Marit Lage is likely to leave us very far behind if it gets answered, which it almost assuredly will. I just try and grind my opponent into the dirt. I like to sandbag Grip for high value targets (like RiP) rather than just going after the first target they present. Crop rotation is clutch for finding tabernacles, mazes, groves, stages to make extra mazes etc so keep all 4. Gamble finds our molten vortex, K return, K grips etc.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Kennan Haas took down an scg classic with his smallpox deck, not directly RG-related but it's always fun to see the crazier stuff he gets up to.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=113746

[Wiktul]

Considering all Leovold-Nemezis-Delver issues discussed recently, as well as mindblowing amount of various Delver decks in tops of the tournaments all over the world, I'd like to know your thoughts about Magnetic Mountain :)

[djxstream]

Considering all Leovold-Nemezis-Delver issues discussed recently, as well as mindblowing amount of various Delver decks in tops of the tournaments all over the world, I'd like to know your thoughts about Magnetic Mountain :)

I cant see myself adding any creature handling cards that dont handle DRS.

[Ingo]

Kennan Haas took down an scg classic with his smallpox deck, not directly RG-related but it's always fun to see the crazier stuff he gets up to.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=113746

I like this deck a lot, but I think it does the same thing as our deck (controlling creatures, denying mana and combofinishing), but only less explosive. Which matchup would be more favorable playing Jund Depths than Lands?

[filln]

Considering all Leovold-Nemezis-Delver issues discussed recently, as well as mindblowing amount of various Delver decks in tops of the tournaments all over the world, I'd like to know your thoughts about Magnetic Mountain :)

When it comes to Arabian Nights enchantments, Drop of Honey is probably the superior choice. :cool:

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I like this deck a lot, but I think it does the same thing as our deck (controlling creatures, denying mana and combofinishing), but only less explosive. Which matchup would be more favorable playing Jund Depths than Lands?I've messed around with it in the past around the last time he top 8'd with it and I'd agree with your general assessment. It's slower but the entomb package is really flexible while being very powerful. Decks weak to smallpox were also a lot of fun to play against. I was playing it when infect was really popular and there were a few people who scooped matches online as soon as they saw that card.

I'd probably put it in the same category as RUG lands. Likely not better than RG in a vacuum but given the right meta and a capable pilot it's a defensible choice.

[Scott]

Speaking of weird Lands-y decks, I had to post this recent list (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23229&iddeck=179954) I saw. 46 person tournament and isn't really an R/G Lands deck but I thought you guys would appreciate it.

// Creature (4)
4 Knight of the Reliquary

// Instant (7)
3 Punishing Fire
4 Crop Rotation

// Sorcery (7)
3 Life from the Loam
4 Living Wish

// Enchantment (5)
1 Sylvan Library
4 Exploration

// Artifact (4)
4 Mox Diamond

// Land (33)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Rishadan Port
2 Taiga
3 Dark Depths
3 Maze of Ith
3 Thespian's Stage
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Dark Depths
SB: 1 Thespian's Stage
SB: 1 Ghost Quarter
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Molten Vortex
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Krosan Grip

[supremePINEAPPLE]

:eek: Yep, I'm playing that at some point. Thanks for the link Scott.

[Scott]

:eek: Yep, I'm playing that at some point. Thanks for the link Scott.

Awesome, hope the spicy brew treats you well.

[jarvisyu]

After coming out of streaming hibernation (while preparing for the PT), I've been streaming a bunch of Legacy, and some with Lands.

I also lost playing for t8 of the Classic to Legacy teammate for our Team open team (on Landstill) because I decided to play real bad.

In any case, here's what I've been playing, and I think it's quite strong:

//35
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
2 Taiga
1 Sheltered Thicket
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Barbarian Ring

//25
4 Gamble
4 Crop Rotation
4 Punishing Fire
4 Exploration
4 Mox Diamond
4 Life from the Loam
1 Manabond

Sideboard
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Tomb

There was tons of Delver / 3-4c Good Stuff in the Open and Classic, and I expect that to remain the same for the Grand Prix in Las Vegas as well.

[filln]

In any case, here's what I've been playing, and I think it's quite strong:

1 Sheltered Thicket


Hey Jarvis, what are your thoughts on the Sheltered Thicket? How often did you use it as a source of mana or fetched it out as opposed to a higher cost cycler with some upside? I haven't had a chance to test one myself yet but plan on doing so.

[jarvisyu]

Hey Jarvis, what are your thoughts on the Sheltered Thicket? How often did you use it as a source of mana or fetched it out as opposed to a higher cost cycler with some upside? I haven't had a chance to test one myself yet but plan on doing so.

It's basically a split card. ETBT Taiga // bad cycling land is good enough for me to play exactly 1. The fact that it's fetchable means you can find a turn where you don't need all of your mana to fetch it.

[Layalouhamesh]

It's basically a split card. ETBT Taiga // bad cycling land is good enough for me to play exactly 1. The fact that it's fetchable means you can find a turn where you don't need all of your mana to fetch it.

I personally play 2 and no Tranquil Thicket. After a few tests, I will definitely stick with this card rather than Tranquil Thicket. For me, the advantages are:
* Makes you keep some hands that you would normally have thrown.
* Activates on colorless, saving your Taigas for Molten Vortex activations.
* More red sources (Vortex/PF again).
* The fetches rarely become dead cards.

I personally think this are enough reasons to favor it over the Onslaught land.

[Admiral Nobeard]

So I've got a tournament coming up at the end of this week, but my board is in shambles right now. Currently, it's at:

4 Chalice
4 Tracker
3 Krosan Grip
1 Boseiju
2 Choke
1 Depths

I have almost no answer to combo, save for the Chalice, but I'm lucky if I open with it, and Spheres are almost impossible to come by in my area. Are there any small changes I could make on the fly in the next few days in hopes of having some answer to combo? The meta I'm going to is mostly fair decks, with some combo scattered throughout, primarily Elves, Burn, and maybe an ANT or two.

[Noctalor]

So I've got a tournament coming up at the end of this week, but my board is in shambles right now. Currently, it's at:

4 Chalice
4 Tracker
3 Krosan Grip
1 Boseiju
2 Choke
1 Depths

I have almost no answer to combo, save for the Chalice, but I'm lucky if I open with it, and Spheres are almost impossible to come by in my area. Are there any small changes I could make on the fly in the next few days in hopes of having some answer to combo? The meta I'm going to is mostly fair decks, with some combo scattered throughout, primarily Elves, Burn, and maybe an ANT or two.

I can't do much more to suggest you my board, I'm kinda happy of my combo MU

// 60 Maindeck
// 4 Artifact
4 Mox Diamond

// 6 Enchantment
4 Exploration
1 Manabond
1 Molten Vortex

// 8 Instant
4 Crop Rotation
4 Punishing Fire

// 34 Land
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas
2 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Maze of Ith
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Windswept Heath
1 Ancient Tomb

// 8 Sorcery
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam


// 15 Sideboard
// 7 Artifact
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance

// 2 Creature
SB: 2 Tireless Tracker

// 5 Instant
SB: 4 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Heaven

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog


I made few changes since I won that 130 ppl event, still unsure about them, but the side is basicly the same

[Admiral Nobeard]

I can't do much more to suggest you my board, I'm kinda happy of my combo MU

I think I misspoke: What are my options for fighting combo matchups without using Sphere since I don't have any and don't have access to any? Or are 4 Chalice good enough?

[filln]

I think I misspoke: What are my options for fighting combo matchups without using Sphere since I don't have any and don't have access to any? Or are 4 Chalice good enough?

If you can't add more disruption, perhaps try speeding up instead? You could use Ancient Tomb and two Manabond. You mentioned Elves above, so maybe add in a Kozilek's Return or another sweeper of your choice. If Storm is a problem, you could also consider a spicy white or black splash to get access to Ethersworn Canonist/Thalia or Thoughtseize.

[Admiral Nobeard]

If you can't add more disruption, perhaps try speeding up instead? You could use Ancient Tomb and two Manabond. You mentioned Elves above, so maybe add in a Kozilek's Return or another sweeper of your choice. If Storm is a problem, you could also consider a spicy white or black splash to get access to Ethersworn Canonist/Thalia or Thoughtseize.

I've been seeing Ancient Tomb more and more; is this due to having faster mana for Chalice, Sphere, and Stage I'm assuming? I've also thought about a third colour, but I'm not sure which one I want to do. I've been thinking of perhaps going into black, similar to Long's list with Abrupt Decay before the Top ban. Here's my current mainboard:

1x Bojuka Bog
3x Dark Depths
1x ForestGE icon
4x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Karakas
3x Maze of Ith
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Riftstone Portal
2x Taiga
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Thespian's Stage
1x Tranquil Thicket
4x Wasteland
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
4x Exploration
1x Manabond
2x Molten Vortex
4x Crop Rotation
3x Punishing Fire
4x Gamble
4x Life from the Loam

It's a standard RG list, with little changes, so if I did add black or white, would I just cut a utility land for a Bayou or Scrubland and add cards in the board?

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I think I misspoke: What are my options for fighting combo matchups without using Sphere since I don't have any and don't have access to any? Or are 4 Chalice good enough?Shops around you don't have thorns or trinispheres either?

[Admiral Nobeard]

Shops around you don't have thorns or trinispheres either?

No. I live in the south US, and I'm lucky if people have legacy pieces for trade or sale usually. Usually there's one or two guys that have parts, but they live a state away which is where I'm going to the tourney. I'd order online, but I just don't have the money for next-day shipping.

[filln]

No. I live in the south US, and I'm lucky if people have legacy pieces for trade or sale usually. Usually there's one or two guys that have parts, but they live a state away which is where I'm going to the tourney. I'd order online, but I just don't have the money for next-day shipping.

Two other ideas... if you're truly afraid of Storm, perhaps Mindbreak Trap could be an option? Could also counter a Natural Order from Elves too following a Glimpse chain. Also, I remember seeing Long try out some Red Elemental Blasts too, which is more flexible in helping out to take down Leovold too.

[Admiral Nobeard]

Two other ideas... if you're truly afraid of Storm, perhaps Mindbreak Trap could be an option? Could also counter a Natural Order from Elves too. Also, I remember seeing Long try out some Red Elemental Blasts too, which is more flexible in helping out to take down Leovold too.

I'm more afraid of Delver, Stoneblade, Show and Tell, D&T, and Elves to be honest. That's the majority of the field where I play. That's pretty good; I compeltely forgot about Mindbreak Trap. I don't have much experience with Elves aside from locking them out with Tabernacle; how often does Trap come up to be free against them?

[supremePINEAPPLE]

No. I live in the south US, and I'm lucky if people have legacy pieces for trade or sale usually. Usually there's one or two guys that have parts, but they live a state away which is where I'm going to the tourney. I'd order online, but I just don't have the money for next-day shipping.Damn, didn't realize how nice I had it in Denver. I like the mindbreak trap idea too.

[Admiral Nobeard]

Damn, didn't realize how nice I had it in Denver. I like the mindbreak trap idea too.

You crazy northerners and your popular legacy events. That reminds me when I visited family in Oregon and wandered into a shoppe downtown where they were running a weekly legacy event. It blew my mind that the words "weekly" and "legacy" could be in the same sentence.

[Ingo]

I'm more afraid of Delver, Stoneblade, Show and Tell, D&T, and Elves to be honest. That's the majority of the field where I play. That's pretty good; I compeltely forgot about Mindbreak Trap. I don't have much experience with Elves aside from locking them out with Tabernacle; how often does Trap come up to be free against them?

Warping Wail looks good for your meta. Counter the S&T,kill the weenies!

[filln]

I'm more afraid of Delver, Stoneblade, Show and Tell, D&T, and Elves to be honest. That's the majority of the field where I play. That's pretty good; I compeltely forgot about Mindbreak Trap. I don't have much experience with Elves aside from locking them out with Tabernacle; how often does Trap come up to be free against them?

Sounds like you need a sweeper or two for Delver, D&T, and Elves. I like Kozilek's Return, though others have used Heaven // Earth, Pyroclasm, or Volcanic Fallout.

Show and Tell is a really tough matchup. Some extremely narrow options could be Ashen Rider or Gilded Drake to put off of their own Show and Tell.

[Admiral Nobeard]

Warping Wail looks good for your meta. Counter the S&T,kill the weenies!

Would Wail go in the side though, and what would I take out? I've thought about it, I just haven't found the room.


Sounds like you need a sweeper or two for Delver, D&T, and Elves. I like Kozilek's Return, though others have used Heaven // Earth, Pyroclasm, or Volcanic Fallout.

Show and Tell is a really tough matchup. Some extremely narrow options could be Ashen Rider or Gilded Drake to put off of their own Show and Tell.

I've pretty much given up on S&T matches at this point. It's just a match that's hard for me to win every time, so I don't dedicate board hate to it because it would weaken my board overall. For sweepers, what would be your recommendation? I'm leaning towards Fallout because of the best text: "Can't be countered."

[Ingo]

Would Wail go in the side though, and what would I take out? I've thought about it, I just haven't found the room.



You could drop 1-3 chalice, 1 Tracker, 1 Boseiju and 2 choke for more combohate and/or a sweeper. Kozilek's Return is probably the best as its colorless. Being uncounterable isn't overly important, as you probably want to gamble for it (and the gamble can be countered too).

[Admiral Nobeard]

You could drop 1-3 chalice, 1 Tracker, 1 Boseiju and 2 choke for more combohate and/or a sweeper. Kozilek's Return is probably the best as its colorless. Being uncounterable isn't overly important, as you probably want to gamble for it (and the gamble can be countered too).

Would the colourless part be favourable due to BEB and Hydroblast?
Edit: As well as Mom and other white protection spells/abilities?

[Ingo]

As well as Mom

Especially for mom, as the sweeper's especially there for D&T (and Prelate)

[Alexeezay]

I think 2 Warping Wail are the real deal in this meta and I really enjoyed them in my test games.
- Makes a token for Diabolic Edict (which is a popular sideboard card right now as a 2-of mostly)
- additional answer to DRS
- Counters S&T, Reanimate/Exhume, Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish, NO/Glimpse/GSZ (and Time Spiral lul jk)

I'm also trying out 2 Phyrexian Revoker. I'm not sure if it's good enough but it's pretty versatile. Have you tried Revoker (post-SDT Ban) and what's your experience with this guy?

[djxstream]

It's a standard RG list, with little changes, so if I did add black or white, would I just cut a utility land for a Bayou or Scrubland and add cards in the board?

in my experience playing a 3rd color & PF/Groves is tough on the mana base because of the low fetch count.

My colored land sources: 6 fetches, 1 bayou, 3 taiga, 1 forest, 1 bog, 1 thicket, 1 b-ring.

[jarvisyu]

in my experience playing a 3rd color & PF/Groves is tough on the mana base because of the low fetch count.

My colored land sources: 6 fetches, 1 bayou, 3 taiga, 1 forest, 1 bog, 1 thicket, 1 b-ring.

100% agree with this, and why i've never been a fan of splashing a 3rd color, even though it makes your deck more powerful.

[CptHaddock]

Sideboard
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Tomb


Jarvis is the reason for the 4 thorns instead of 4 spheres the various show and tell matchups? Those are probably the only ones where I imagine you want to smoothly curve into tracker. Am I missing a few?

[jarvisyu]

Jarvis is the reason for the 4 thorns instead of 4 spheres the various show and tell matchups? Those are probably the only ones where I imagine you want to smoothly curve into tracker. Am I missing a few?

That's the only reason, yeah.

If you'd rather hedge versus Elves, Aluren, etc, you can swap them back.

[Noctalor]

That's the only reason, yeah.

If you'd rather hedge versus Elves, Aluren, etc, you can swap them back.

I may be wrong, but I really think we ned the best possible card versus Food Chain, which is a really hard MU, Thorn does nothing there and Sphere is at least blocking the infinite mana.

Isn't that already enought to prefer Sphere?

[kravkenov]

Against Foodchain Sphere is really good. It completely shut down they engine.
I usually side in Sphere, Krosan Grip and Revoker (Foodchain/Ballista/Shaman). These cards are strong enough to let you assemble the token. The only last thing to be careful is Surgical.

[Admiral Nobeard]

On that note, do ya'll think it's worth a few board slots to put in Surgical? I've been thinking of doing it since it technically free, but I always find it hurts the board more than helps it.

[jarvisyu]

I may be wrong, but I really think we ned the best possible card versus Food Chain, which is a really hard MU, Thorn does nothing there and Sphere is at least blocking the infinite mana.

Isn't that already enought to prefer Sphere?

There's not a lot of Food Chain over here, but that is a legitimate reason.

[Epeirogeny]

I was having a lot of success with this deck only to now be frustrated because I have 0-2'd three tournaments in a row for a total of a 0-6 streak. I need some help and advice getting through.

Losses are from
3 Burn decks
2 Sneak and Show decks
1 U/B reanimator

There has to be something for the deck to get through combo and burn. I just can't seem to get wins against these decks. What's more frustrating is the pilots of these decks weren't even good players.

My list is very vanilla

4 Crop rotation
4 Exploration
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
3 Punishing Fire
1 Molten vortex
1 manabond

4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
2 Taiga
1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Fetch lands
1 Tranquil Thicket


Sideboard -
4 Krosan Grip
4 Sphere of resistance
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Drop of honey
1 Barbarian Ring
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Pithing Needle


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ingo]

I was having a lot of success with this deck only to now be frustrated because I have 0-2'd three tournaments in a row for a total of a 0-6 streak. I need some help and advice getting through.

Losses are from
3 Burn decks
2 Sneak and Show decks
1 U/B reanimator



Burn, S&T and Reanimator aren't favorable matchups, so it's not strange to have bad results against them.
The meta is unpredictable now, and proactive gameplans like combo or burn are probably popular choices now. Lands is not good positioned against this, but the meta is still settling. I'm playing Lands more proactive too right now, adopting a more combominded gameplan, by keeping comboheavy openers, because a quick token is your best shot at winning in game1 against those bad matchups. Still not good ofcourse, but I've managed to pull off occasional game1 wins against combo, and with game 1 in the pocket, winning an additional game with sideboardcards coning in, is manageable.
Against burn you also have the controlling chasmlock game1 (game2 and 3 they might have gravehate), but it's a complicated puzzle to pull off.

Or play a different deck, if you're meta is saturated by combo. I play BR Reanimator in a store with lots of Storm and S&T players, and it's nice to prey on them for a change :)

[Sparkii]

Play the Ancient Tomb. Really, it does wonders in those matchups where you turn 1 sphere or chalice them.

[CovenantElite30]

Looks like a lot of people lately have been having success online playing 4 Ghost Quarter and dropping Rishadian Ports. This could be because ports are so expensive. I wonder if this is the directly to take this deck with all the non basics running around.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[Epeirogeny]

Play the Ancient Tomb. Really, it does wonders in those matchups where you turn 1 sphere or chalice them.

Yea, I think i might sub out the barbarian ring for the ancient tomb. Death and Taxes has been on the decline in my local meta. Though, I still like to play a list as if I was going to a big event.

[kravkenov]

Looks like a lot of people lately have been having success online playing 4 Ghost Quarter and dropping Rishadian Ports. This could be because ports are so expensive. I wonder if this is the directly to take this deck with all the non basics running around.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

I don't think it's a matter of price. The meta is still adapting and the mana denial plan is a really strong edge of attack to win game. IMO, Port is a reactive answer while Quarter is more a proactive spell that fight very good other combo decks and all grindy MUs.

[Dice_Box]

I played against neo Miracles last night with Ghost Quarter and made short work of it. The deck is too slow, has too much "Air" in it and has too few threats. Needing a double White spell to win, or Jace made things simple. Jace I answered with Burn and Angels I never let him have the mana for.

After the games he told me he just kept drawing Terminus and they clumped up his hand. Other than Bloodmoon, there is little in that deck that bothers me.

Oh and I got to play against Burn too. At lest the new art on Price is interesting. That's something positive I guess.

[Whitefaces]

Can confirm, you guys are good vs the new Miracles deck.

[Chatto]

Can confirm, you guys are good vs the new Miracles deck.

Well, ain't that nice to know!

Question to all: GQ are out, Ports go in?

[djxstream]

Question to all: GQ are out, Ports go in?

I'm sticking with the GQs (3x) at the moment

Even when i played with ports, I always liked having 1 GQ in addition...so to switch back to that config would require me to make 2 more spots avail to fit the full set of ports, which i dont feel like doing right now. I'm on RGb build.

[Dice_Box]

Keeping in the GQ. I find they are either Strip Mine or a way to remove a decks final few lands. DnT is the only deck I have felt of late that I would rather the switch. I also like that I can force a shuffle against Brainstorm sometimes.

[kravkenov]

Question to all: GQ are out, Ports go in?

If I play local (where I more or less know the metagame), I go with 4 GQ and a single Crucible (1 Crucible and 1 Explosives instead of 2 Explosives) because my local meta is full of combo. But if I go playing in an unknown meta, I still keep my old configuration of 4 Port and 2 Explosives.

[Admiral Nobeard]

So last Sunday I participated in a Teams event in Memphis and punted so freakin' hard. Even though my team (T2, Modern, Legacy) made it into top 8, my personal record of the day was 0-3-1 and 1 DNF; my games always went 0-2 against me. This is my current list: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/21-06-16-SGB-lands/

I lost against Mono Red Sneak Attack, Grixis Delver, RW (Eldrazi/Taxes; my teammates won before we finished), and Czech Pile. I don't know what happened aside, but my deck hated me all day and every match I never saw a Loam, every Gamble was countered, and every land became Moutains before I could get my Forest. It was so depressing I'm not sure if I should switch to RUG or Junderdome colours now.

R1: Mono Red Sneak Attack
I have fetch into Forest into Exploration, Grove. He goes T1 Blood Moon, T2 Chalice on 1, so no DD combo and no Molten Vortex locks me out. Game two I get Taiga into Exploration into Portal in hopes of sacking it to Chasm next turn to ensure green mana. He goes T1 Tomb, 3 Lotus Petal, Blood Moon, Chalice on 1. He later gets Sneak Attack down and brings in Grizz, Worldspine Wurm, and Inferno Titan.

R2: Grixis Delver
Every Gamble and Exploration is either Forced or Dazed and both games I never see a single Loam.

R3: RW Eldrazi/Taxes
Game 1 I Tabernacle and GQ him out to concede. Game 2 he TKS's my only Loam and I never see another one. Game 3 he get Leyline of the Void on T0 so I play off the top and hold him off until my two teammates win.

R4: ID into Top 8. This would have been Elves

QF: Czech Pile
Game 1: Exploration, Dazed. Gamble, Forced. Loam hit by Thoughtseize and then maindeck Surgical. I make Lage, he chumps with Strix for a turn and topdecks LOTV. Game 2: Exploration is Forced. T1 Thoughtseize into Surgical again to Loam, followed by his board of Delver, Pyromancer, and Leovold. I'm officially done with this day.

[filln]

If I play local (where I more or less know the metagame), I go with 4 GQ and a single Crucible (1 Crucible and 1 Explosives instead of 2 Explosives) because my local meta is full of combo. But if I go playing in an unknown meta, I still keep my old configuration of 4 Port and 2 Explosives.

I'm kind of surprised you opt for GQ over Port in a combo-heavy meta. I've usually found Ports to be more effective against most combo.

[kravkenov]

I'm kind of surprised you opt for GQ over Port in a combo-heavy meta. I've usually found Ports to be more effective against most combo.

My feelings is that against combo, most of the time GQ act like a wasteland and it's very effective. Port is a bit more slow (can't use it by its own until you have another mana to invest, and it is usually not the case until turn 3 if you want to play your game plan) but it's not bad. I really enjoy Port and it's my default mana denial plan for any big tournament :)

[Ciubulu]

Well, ain't that nice to know!

Question to all: GQ are out, Ports go in?

I play a 3 ports/1 gq split and never missed the 4th port. In the long game I can copy them with stages if needed and still have the option to tutor gq vs decks with few basics.

[djxstream]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-06-02

2 Lands list 5-0'd today...one interesting with the 4 chalices main. Thoughts on that config? I for one cant see the benefit in having them g1 when we rely so heavily on the tutors and exploration.

[Ingo]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-06-02

2 Lands list 5-0'd today...one interesting with the 4 chalices main. Thoughts on that config? I for one cant see the benefit in having them g1 when we rely so heavily on the tutors and exploration.

Chalice is like a reverse exploration I guess. Your opponents game is hampered, while you filter out 1 drops by dredging. Still, playing chalice on one and not having loam is a dangerous thing, as you nuked your own ability to tutor up anything. Bwish might be nice to replace gamble though, as a non-1-mana tutor for loam.

[Crimhead]

My feelings is that against combo, most of the time GQ act like a wasteland and it's very effective.
Storm, Reanimator, and Sneak Show all run basics. Elves too. GQ will do nothing against these decks the first time you activate. Port can slow them down while you find a lock piece or assemble a fast combo.

[Sparkii]

Storm, Reanimator, and Sneak Show all run basics. Elves too. GQ will do nothing against these decks the first time you activate. Port can slow them down while you find a lock piece or assemble a fast combo.

I definitely enjoy quarters more against combo postboard. Often you can assemble a tax piece early but if you just draw terribly, your opponent usually just cantrips out from it or draws more land. With quarter you give them a "find answer or die" clock which is great. I understand the appeal of ports; I played them for years, but personally preference leans me towards quarters. ANT, Elves and Reanimator are on 2, 3 basics max. It's very easy to strip them out. I won my match against ANT last week because I ripped Loam off the top with active quarter and stripped him down to 1 basic so he couldn't echoing truth my tax piece.

[non-inflammable]

Bwish might be nice to replace gamble though, as a non-1-mana tutor for loam.

i played a fun list with 4 living wish. could be fun to put it back together with 4 chalice main?

[Ciubulu]

I definitely enjoy quarters more against combo postboard. Often you can assemble a tax piece early but if you just draw terribly, your opponent usually just cantrips out from it or draws more land. With quarter you give them a "find answer or die" clock which is great. I understand the appeal of ports; I played them for years, but personally preference leans me towards quarters. ANT, Elves and Reanimator are on 2, 3 basics max. It's very easy to strip them out. I won my match against ANT last week because I ripped Loam off the top with active quarter and stripped him down to 1 basic so he couldn't echoing truth my tax piece.

That's exactly why I play the split. I can crop/gamble the quarter if needed and still be able to negate them access to mana with ports G1.
I would like to play more than one but at the moment there is a wide variety of decks and I prefer to play more utility lands for unexpected/unusual mu's than have a more focused deck that sometimes lose from random decks.

[Ingo]

Storm, Reanimator, and Sneak Show all run basics. Elves too. GQ will do nothing against these decks the first time you activate. Port can slow them down while you find a lock piece or assemble a fast combo.

I also like ports more versus combo. They add an additional taks-effect upon spheres, while not setting your own mana back. Quarters usually take 1-2 activations before they become stripmines, and I also feel like you haven't got the time to pull that off. I like quarters more versus creaturebased decks, making Tabernacle a hardlock (while they can still pay for Tabernacle with ports).


i played a fun list with 4 living wish. could be fun to put it back together with 4 chalice main?

I'd say go for it. We're in an experimental period after the ban, if you wanna test crazy things you always wanted to do, the time is now :)

[Dice_Box]

What would people put in a Burning Wish sideboard?

[Ingo]

What would people put in a Burning Wish sideboard?

BWish was mentioned because of a landsdeck playing maindeck chalice.
So the biggest boon seems to me that you can play chalice1, and topdeck both loam and Wish (for loam) to filter the deck.

I guess we'd also benefit from the following:

- artifact-enchantment removal: check (Reverent Silence, Hull Breach, ... )
- creature sweeper: check (Pyroclasm, ...)
- manadenial: check (Tsunami)

- tutoring for combopieces: ...
- combo hate: ...

BWish seems to have interesting options for fair decks, but hardly ways to combo faster or to disrupt opposing combo.

[Dice_Box]

I had a quick look and come up with some other options too:

Sylvan Scrying
Scapeshift
Treasure hunt

This could be an interesting thought experiment.

[Ingo]

I had a quick look and come up with some other options too:

Sylvan Scrying
Scapeshift
Treasure hunt

This could be an interesting thought experiment.

Worm Harvest as an alternative wincon
And if you splash black, Last Rites (Kurt Spiess played this in one of his first lists), Toxic Deluge and Slaughtergames :smile:

[Sparkii]

Worm Harvest as an alternative wincon
And if you splash black, Last Rites (Kurt Spiess played this in one of his first lists), Toxic Deluge and Slaughtergames :smile:

Man Last Rites is a throwback. I used to play that in lands lists circa 2013-2014 alongside raven's crime in the main.

[kravkenov]

Storm, Reanimator, and Sneak Show all run basics. Elves too. GQ will do nothing against these decks the first time you activate. Port can slow them down while you find a lock piece or assemble a fast combo.

Storm and Reanimator really slow they game-plan if they fetch for basics early turns. Sneak-Show and Elves are usually not turn-1 combo. IMO in any of these MUs, Ghost Quarter is very efficient. But overall, I think the most important is to be comfortable with your list, whatever you play Port or Quarter ;)

[Ingo]

Man Last Rites is a throwback. I used to play that in lands lists circa 2013-2014 alongside raven's crime in the main.

Dont take it too serious because its just some freestyle toughtexperimenting,
Or a nostalic trip through 2013 memory lane in your case:tongue:

[Epeirogeny]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-06-02

2 Lands list 5-0'd today...one interesting with the 4 chalices main. Thoughts on that config? I for one cant see the benefit in having them g1 when we rely so heavily on the tutors and exploration.

Chalice in the Main seems interesting. The other list, yekcat's has been topping consistently. The question is it the list or the pilot?


As far as GQ vs R.Port. Is it also a matter of timing? In paper Ports are much easier to use. Online, they are very time consuming as burn a lot of your clock.

[Dice_Box]

In the face of a DRS or Cradle against Elves, I have traded a Ghost Quarter for them getting a basic more than once. Sure, they are up a land, but now they are either down a massive mana producer or they can eat my Loam.

[Ingo]

In the face of a DRS or Cradle against Elves, I have traded a Ghost Quarter for them getting a basic more than once. Sure, they are up a land, but now they are either down a massive mana producer or they can eat my Loam.

I catalog Elves in the fair decks compartment, as they succomb to all the nastiness we have versus fair decks. Infect too. I never board combohate (chalice, sphere, ...) against these decks.

It's against S&T, Storm or Reanimator where I like Port more. Depending on the number of hate I board, I usually board out some loams as well (as I want to draw into hate instead of dredging), which is probably also a reason why I prefer the loam-independant port.

[kravkenov]

It's against S&T, Storm or Reanimator where I like Port more. Depending on the number of hate I board, I usually board out some loams as well (as I want to draw into hate instead of dredging), which is probably also a reason why I prefer the loam-independant port.

The thing is that in the very early turns, where Storm and Reanimator operate (and Sneak-Show in a lesser extent), Porting on turn-1 dont let you developing your game-plan AND aggressively mana-denial them. Porting turn-1 mean you dont do anything else (except of a very *very* good hand of having Exploration+Mox). For these two particular MUs, forcing them to play only basics is usually enough to buy you the time needed to lock them properly later one. But as I said before, for me the most important thing is to be confortable with the list you play.

[Ingo]

... Porting on turn-1 dont let you developing your game-plan AND aggressively mana-denial them. Porting turn-1 mean you dont do anything else

I'm curious what you mean with developing your gameplan, besides manadenialing. What would you need your mana for besides porting, and playing a haterocks (and ultimately making Marit Lage)? I assume you're dredging for recurring wastelands (or quarters).
But - except for an obvious wastelock - I don't do that (also because I often side out some loams), because I'm dredging away hatepieces too, and my opponent fetches basics to dodge wasteland. But apparently many other players feel very confident in quarters versus combo, so its probably a playstyle thing as you say. Remaining a bit sceptic though!

[kravkenov]

I mean that Porting involve investing 2 mana while only denying one mana to your opponent. This also mean without an acceleration (Mox or Exploration), you won't be able to play any hate piece until turn 4, which is very long. Playing Quarter along side of Wasteland let you cut them out of Usea or Gaeas (Storm and Elves) much more reliably than Port+Wasteland and let you play Sphere or Chalice on turn 3. But really, cards are just cards, knowing what your deck is capable of and knowing how to drive and exploit its power is much more important and impactful.

[filln]

I mean that Porting involve investing 2 mana while only denying one mana to your opponent. This also mean without an acceleration (Mox or Exploration), you won't be able to play any hate piece until turn 4, which is very long. Playing Quarter along side of Wasteland let you cut them out of Usea or Gaeas (Storm and Elves) much more reliably than Port+Wasteland and let you play Sphere or Chalice on turn 3. But really, cards are just cards, knowing what your deck is capable of and knowing how to drive and exploit its power is much more important and impactful.

Perhaps this is a play style issue but I'm not sure I follow this line. Let's take a look at the four most common combo matches:

Sneak and Show
They play about four basics so Ghost Quartering them out is going to take a long time. Rishadan Port is the superior option here.

Storm
Only two basics, so Ghost Quarter is more interesting this matchup. Still, Rishadan Port is pretty decent because it has a high likelihood of blocking access to one mana for a turn since their only instant-speed move in the main is Brainstorm. With Ghost Quarter the same can't be guaranteed because even if they fetch an Island, then can still grab a Swamp after being Ghost Quartered and still have the same amount of mana. Granted, maybe you get lucky and color screw them but I don't think the likelihood is high given the fetches and Lotus Petals. Post-board Ghost Quarter might be a little bit more interesting since they usually bring in instant-speed spells?

I'm also not clear on why you say it takes until turn 4 to cast a sphere effect. I would probably cast it turn 2 and then Port the next turn. In the Ghost Quarter scenario, you could either A) Ghost Quarter turn 1 and get out a sphere turn 3 or B) you could wait and cast a sphere turn 2 and Ghost Quarter turn 3. Either way, it's the same speed but in the second scenario the opponent has the option of getting another land. The only scenario I can see Ghost Quarter being more effective early on is if the player is only running one basic.

Reanimator
Again, only about two basics. Unfortunately Reanimator really only needs one mana and a Dark Ritual to go off so I would rather have a guaranteed block of one mana rather than Ghost Quartering their Swamp only for them to fetch another Swamp.

Elves
Mana denial plan is not necessarily where you want to be here because Elves likely won't play Cradle out until they have at least two creatures out. Often the play Cradle in the midst of going off anyway, so both Rishadan Port and Ghost Quarter aren't very effective. But overall I would say that Ghost Quarter has a slight edge here, but neither really that strong overall.

[inevitablepnut]

I'm going to have to side with ports. I understand that GQ can do alot of damage if they are out of basics but port shuts them off of mana right now. We are weak to combo and buying us a turn is going to be better than letting them get another basic. Just my two cents.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Elves
Mana denial plan is not necessarily where you want to be here because Elves likely won't play Cradle out until they have at least two creatures out. Often the play Cradle in the midst of going off anyway, so both Rishadan Port and Ghost Quarter aren't very effective. But overall I would say that Ghost Quarter has a slight edge here, but neither really that strong overall.

I'd probably lean towards port in that matchup given they have fairly low mana requirements, although like you said, it doesn't matter that much in that matchup.

[gigapatrick]

Hello all,

I'm seriously considering making more Building a Fortress videos, but before I get new equipment and whatnot, I wanted to gauge interest on this forum. Also, since Jarvis has been making videos (and because his play is some levels above mine), I don't want to crowd the scene. So, what does everyone say? Should I revive the series or let it lie?

gigapatrick

[CptHaddock]

Hello all,

I'm seriously considering making more Building a Fortress videos, but before I get new equipment and whatnot, I wanted to gauge interest on this forum. Also, since Jarvis has been making videos (and because his play is some levels above mine), I don't want to crowd the scene. So, what does everyone say? Should I revive the series or let it lie?

gigapatrick

The more nonblue players streaming/making videos, the better my amigo.:laugh:

[Dice_Box]

I would watch. Got a link to the other vids?

[gigapatrick]

I would watch. Got a link to the other vids?

Sure. Here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0p7lXrMnvg&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)you go. All 169 of them.

[filln]

ICYMI: New article on Lands by Jarvis (https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/red-green-35-lands/)

@gigapatrick I'd definitely love more videos! Your original set is what got me into Lands in the first place.

[Chatto]

Hello all,

I'm seriously considering making more Building a Fortress videos, but before I get new equipment and whatnot, I wanted to gauge interest on this forum. Also, since Jarvis has been making videos (and because his play is some levels above mine), I don't want to crowd the scene. So, what does everyone say? Should I revive the series or let it lie?

gigapatrick

Of course!

[Emrakul503]

@gigapatrick Definitely more man. I love watching Lands content. And different pilots make different choices, so I think variety is great! Would love to see more in the new meta!

[chaosjace]

Hello all,

I'm seriously considering making more Building a Fortress videos, but before I get new equipment and whatnot, I wanted to gauge interest on this forum. Also, since Jarvis has been making videos (and because his play is some levels above mine), I don't want to crowd the scene. So, what does everyone say? Should I revive the series or let it lie?

gigapatrick
I watched almost all of your other videos and even though I have moved away from this build of dark depths I would Definately enjoy more videos of this

[Alexeezay]

Gigapatrick, it would be great to see new videos with this deck!

Maybe even some with RUG Lands :)

[Darkgobs]

ICYMI: New article on Lands by Jarvis (https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/red-green-35-lands/)
[...]

Thanks for the link, it's nice to have some explanation on his choices, especially the sideborading tables!
Some thoughts:

1) I am just a bit surprised by his choice to board-out the Glacial Chasm against 4c Delver / Grixis Delver. He argues that it is because "Chasm is bad against DRS". Yeah, well, we all know that, but still, it can come very handy. And if chasm is that bad against DRS, why wouldn't Jarvis side it out against Sultaï Delver?
1.2) Personally, the more I play with Chasm, the more I think it should be a sideboard card instead of a maindeck card: right now, I feel like I'd rather have Karakas or Bojuka in the Main Deck than Chasm. What do you guys think about this?

2) Also, Jarvis apparently confirms that Trackers shines in a lot of matchs-ups post-board, so why only play 2 in the sideboard? I know, we only have 15 slots, but since the Trackers are apparently way more used than the Ancient Grudge, I am wondering why he wouldn't simply do -1 Grudge +1 Tracker. So, any thoughts?

[Joh4n]

Yes please!



Hello all,

I'm seriously considering making more Building a Fortress videos, but before I get new equipment and whatnot, I wanted to gauge interest on this forum. Also, since Jarvis has been making videos (and because his play is some levels above mine), I don't want to crowd the scene. So, what does everyone say? Should I revive the series or let it lie?

gigapatrick

[djxstream]

1) I am just a bit surprised by his choice to board-out the Glacial Chasm against 4c Delver / Grixis Delver. He argues that it is because "Chasm is bad against DRS". Yeah, well, we all know that, but still, it can come very handy. And if chasm is that bad against DRS, why wouldn't Jarvis side it out against Sultaï Delver?
1.2) Personally, the more I play with Chasm, the more I think it should be a sideboard card instead of a maindeck card: right now, I feel like I'd rather have Karakas or Bojuka in the Main Deck than Chasm. What do you guys think about this?

my guess is that chasm is the only thing to buy you time from a TNN, which BUG runs and i believe the 4c/grixis dont.

I personally run karakas, bog and chasm all main, if i were to move one to the board it would likely be karakas. there are a few matchups (storm) where crop rotating into a chasm to buy a turn doesnt save the day.

But trying to do a chasm lock w/ DRS is a lost cause, but for 1 or 2 turns, it could be the difference maker in a ton of matchups

[Alexeezay]

To be honest, I don't like Glacial Chasm that much anymore in general, so I cut it completely and I'm playing both Karakas Bog in the Main for stuff like Reanimator which seems more popular as a combo deck than Storm even (at least here).

You also want Bojuka Bog in the mirror and vs. Aggro Loam, and both matchups combined seem to be common as well...it's always nice to have a small edge for such a low cost.

[Dice_Box]

To be honest, I don't like Glacial Chasm that much anymore in general, so I cut it completely and I'm playing both Karakas Bog in the Main for stuff like Reanimator which seems more popular as a combo deck than Storm even (at least here).
I want it in my 75, but I am thinking about pushing it to the side. I guess though thats the first step to the same detestation you landed at.

[Joh4n]

Chasm seems good in a lot of random matchups as well, belcher for instance. Its a solid main deck imo.