[Primer] R/G Lands

[Wiktul]

Yeah, enchantment academ ruins would be perfect.

Maybe a Jund version with Faith of Devotion and Raven's Crime (targeting yourself), 2B for for 4 damage + 4 life
Entomb instead of gamble


Well, theoretically you could connect Skull of Orm with Academy Ruins and then see how things like Solemnity and Elephant Grass would do, but that's the area of some Johhny-testing, to which I will probably sacrifice few couples of hours in the future :tongue:

[Dice_Box]

It's too many hoops to jump though. The more pieces you need, the more complex the pile, the more unlikely you will be able to pull off your desired effect in a timely manner.

[Chatto]

Keep it plain, and simple. A 2-card combo is better than a 3+ -card combo.

[procobrito]

Well, theoretically you could connect Skull of Orm with Academy Ruins and then see how things like Solemnity and Elephant Grass would do, but that's the area of some Johhny-testing, to which I will probably sacrifice few couples of hours in the future :tongue:
Or past in flames with replenish, but is 8 or 9 mana, this would work only in commander. Lol

Academic ruin for fluctuator and free cycling isn't that bad, are just 2 slots and the deck still works fine without this.

[hoernchen]

Guys, I am very glad to announce that after many many month of trading I am finally in and got all the cards assambled to join you Lands players.
Since I am all new to the deck I would like to ask you for a good starting point with the deck. Playing GQ or Ports. I also saw that at the recent GP in LA 2 lists placed into the Top16. (unfortunatly both playing Drop of honey, which I will not buy into at the current price)

Can you tell me about your opinions how it is best to start, which list to try first, the best primer, ....

[Dice_Box]

First, drop is not a pivotal part of the deck. Do not feel you must buy it.

Quarter v Port is a meta call. If you are going to face more decks with basics, or combo decks with a couple of basics (so they don't get stung too hard by Quarter) go port. If Leovold is the new poster boy for fun where you are, enjoy watching their mana base disappear with Quarter.

If you have both options and you don't know what's better for your meta, play Port. It's safe, it's effective and it's functionally more efficient with Spheres in play. I would suggest going to 3 and running at lest one Quarter though. That card is godly in some games.

The other important thing to think about is your optional slots and meta effect. Things like Bog v Karakas in the main, how often you think you will see Surgical (and thus demanding more cycling lands) and how useful the Blue splash may be for you.

Welcome aboard, in her dark name we do dedicate this performance.

[TLK]

Also brand new to the deck. Been playing Magic since its inception, and have played many different Depths builds, but never a full blown Lands deck. I must say it was very rewarding.

Small 8-man at my local LGS:

Round 1 vs Burn:

Both games pretty much go the same. She gets me down to 2 and I make a 20/20. Being able to respond to Price of Progress by making a token was crucial. Game 2 I Gambled for Zuran Orb and I was able to respond to a lethal Fireblast by making a token and saccing the remaining lands to Orb. Close match - I feel it could've gone either way.

1-0, 2-0

Round 2 vs D&T:

Game 1 I get a turn 1 Exploration and combo kill quickly as he fails to find a StP. Game 2 Prelate on 2 is rough and I can't find an out. Game 3 I get another turn 1 Exploration and get the Loam engine going. Fortunately, he again can't find a StP for my first token.

2-0, 2-1

Round 3 ID to split prize.

Small sample size, but the deck is a blast to play. I definitely need to work on my sideboarding, as I'm often unsure what to sideboard out. Also pissed at myself for not picking up a Drop of Honey at GP Vegas for $90 when I had the chance. :cry:

[OldSpellMaster]

Hi all
also new to this forum, but playing lands for about a year (actually had my first self-made lands deck back in the urza's legacy days with manlands, croprotation, wrath of god, equinox, the abyss... pyramids :-) )
Not playing much of tournaments but playing in our little group so far. And having FUN.
I started with RUG Lands (and loved it) but made the switch to a more RGu build like everyone else. It was hard to cut the Tolaria West :-(
I have a Sparkii-like deck now with Academy Ruins, EE, but without Molten Vortex and more Ports than GQ (now, a 3/2).
Love the EE so far and will not cut blue as long as there is no Enchatment-Academy Ruins. (And for the Skull of Orm hack-idea before: Use Crystal Chimes. It's cheaper.)

I always thought, I don't like cards which are dead when I dredge them to the grave; so Enchantments (and also Sorceries/Instants; Intuition, even if I liked it before) will not see much of play in my build. That's one of the reasons I don't play Drop of Honey (even if I have them); Sure, I still have Croprotation, Exploration and Gambles ;-)

Biggest problem is the sideboard. Tracker or Revoker or Wail... Maybe I'll ask again for some help; but for now: Happy to be here :-)

[claulis]

Have a sad story from last night. Was in game 3 of a match and I dredged Loam 3 times and I did not hit a single land lost :(

[baboontilt]

How do you guys typically sideboard in the mirror? I played the match-up in a recent SCG open, and after dispatching my opponent he rather derisively told me I shouldn't have more than 1 Punishing Fire in my deck post-board (used one to kill an early Tracker). I'm sure it was mainly the frustation of losing/personality, as he was one of those players that openly criticized my lines (which I am reasonably confident were correct): perhaps it was just a pointless dig, but it did get me thinking about board plans a bit more. Obviously the deck has changed a bit with the printing of Tracker, so more removal is something I value and I usually keep 3-4 Fires/Vortex in. It is obviously list-dependent, but is there a canon approach to the mirror? I generally go down to 1 Depths, and Make sure to board in all the Trackers/Grips available, but my plan can be pretty fluid other than that.


Have a sad story from last night. Was in game 3 of a match and I dredged Loam 3 times and I did not hit a single land lost :(

In this same tournament I had a match against RUG delver. He t1 Delver'd on the play, I wasted him, cast loam the next turn off a Stage/Diamond. He never hit another land, I dredged every turn and didn't hit a Maze, Tabernacle, Depths, Grove, or Barbarian Ring before the Delver killed me :(

[Epeirogeny]

Guys, I am very glad to announce that after many many month of trading I am finally in and got all the cards assambled to join you Lands players.
Since I am all new to the deck I would like to ask you for a good starting point with the deck. Playing GQ or Ports. I also saw that at the recent GP in LA 2 lists placed into the Top16. (unfortunatly both playing Drop of honey, which I will not buy into at the current price)

Can you tell me about your opinions how it is best to start, which list to try first, the best primer, ....

Here is a list of the average of every card used in a Land list that has been posted in a Top 8 since the banning of Sensei's Divining Top. I keep this updated pretty regularly. Includes both online and paper meta.


LANDS 34.8

CREATURES 0.1

OTHER SPELLS 25.2

LANDS
Ancient Tomb 0.2

Barbarian Ring 0.6

Bojuka Bog 0.6

Dark Depths 3.7

Forest 1.0

Ghost Quarter 2.1

Glacial Chasm 1.0

Grove of the Burnwillows 3.8

Horizon Canopy 0.2

Karakas 0.7

Maze of Ith 2.6

Misty Rainforest 0.4

Riftstone Portal 0.2

Rishadan Port 2.2

Sheltered Thicket 0.5

Taiga 2.1

The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale 1.0

Thespian's Stage 4.0

Tranquil Thicket 1.1

Verdant Catacombs 0.6

Wasteland 4.0

Windswept Heath 0.9

Wooded Foothills 1.1

CREATURES
Tireless Tracker 0.1

OTHER SPELLS
Chalice of the Void 0.2

Crop Rotation 4.0

Exploration 4.0

Gamble 3.9

Life from the Loam 4.0

Manabond 0.9

Molten Vortex 0.7

Mox Diamond 3.9

Punishing Fire 3.1

Sylvan Library 0.2

Sylvan Scrying 0.1

Warping Wail 0.0

SIDEBOARDS
Ancient Grudge 0.3

Ancient Tomb 0.4

Ashen Rider 0.1

Barbarian Ring 0.1

Beast Within 0.1

Bojuka Bog 0.4

Chalice of the Void 1.3

Choke 0.2

Crucible of Worlds 0.0

Dark Depths 0.1

Drop of Honey 0.4

Faerie Macabre 0.2

Firespout 0.1

Karakas 0.2

Kederekt Leviathan 0.0

Kozilek's Return 0.2

Krosan Grip 3.0

Leyline of the Void 0.1

Mindbreak Trap 0.1

Molten Vortex 0.1

Nature's Claim 0.1

Nissa, Vital Force 0.0

Phyrexian Revoker 0.1

Pithing Needle 0.4

Punishing Fire 0.0

Red Elemental Blast 0.1

Scab-Clan Berserker 0.1

Seal of Primordium 0.1

Seismic Assault 0.0

Sphere of Resistance 3.4

Sulfur Elemental 0.1

Surgical Extraction 0.1

Thorn of Amethyst 1.0

Tireless Tracker 2.1

Trinisphere 0.2

Volcanic Fallout 0.1

Warping Wail 0.0

Zuran Orb 0.0

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

How do you guys typically sideboard in the mirror? I played the match-up in a recent SCG open, and after dispatching my opponent he rather derisively told me I shouldn't have more than 1 Punishing Fire in my deck post-board (used one to kill an early Tracker). I'm sure it was mainly the frustation of losing/personality, as he was one of those players that openly criticized my lines (which I am reasonably confident were correct): perhaps it was just a pointless dig, but it did get me thinking about board plans a bit more. Obviously the deck has changed a bit with the printing of Tracker, so more removal is something I value and I usually keep 3-4 Fires/Vortex in. It is obviously list-dependent, but is there a canon approach to the mirror? I generally go down to 1 Depths, and Make sure to board in all the Trackers/Grips available, but my plan can be pretty fluid other than that.


Fuck that guy, just ignore him.

Punishing Fire isn't that great honestly, you might kill a tracker like you did but that's probably not going to happen too often. Going down to 1 depths might be a bit low honesty, are you already cutting chasm and maze of ith?

[filln]

How do you guys typically sideboard in the mirror? I played the match-up in a recent SCG open, and after dispatching my opponent he rather derisively told me I shouldn't have more than 1 Punishing Fire in my deck post-board (used one to kill an early Tracker). I'm sure it was mainly the frustation of losing/personality, as he was one of those players that openly criticized my lines (which I am reasonably confident were correct): perhaps it was just a pointless dig, but it did get me thinking about board plans a bit more. Obviously the deck has changed a bit with the printing of Tracker, so more removal is something I value and I usually keep 3-4 Fires/Vortex in. It is obviously list-dependent, but is there a canon approach to the mirror? I generally go down to 1 Depths, and Make sure to board in all the Trackers/Grips available, but my plan can be pretty fluid other than that.

Personally I would probably board out all Punishing Fire/Molten Vortex, Glacial Chasm, Tabernacle, two Dark Depths, and then Maze of Ith as needed. I'm boarding in Tireless Tracker, Krosan Grip, and Karakas. Burning a Tracker is definitely possible, but if they're careful it's super easy to play around. Although Maze isn't super great in the mirror, it can potentially stall a few turns and it's always pitchable to Crop Rotation/Mox Diamond.

[GoblinZ]

Played a eight men tournament tonight and got crushed by two Sneakshow.Sarcastically I knew some of my friends would play SnT in advance and I played 3 Ashen Rider in the sideboard...I really hate this match-up and swear never playing my own Sneakshow recently...

[gigapatrick]

So, I think I've finally got my audio/video sync issues worked out, so here's another video:

#172 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohtWk7NT_w0)

Also, while I'm not sure anybody cares, here's a video of a Vintage Cube draft that I did today as well:

Vid (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Zwj6qLI4cU)

Enjoy!

[OldSpellMaster]

Played a eight men tournament tonight and got crushed by two Sneakshow.Sarcastically I knew some of my friends would play SnT in advance and I played 3 Ashen Rider in the sideboard...I really hate this match-up and swear never playing my own Sneakshow recently...

About SnT... Is it really SnT or are all combo decks a pain when they can play around our taxes. Eg. Reanimator could also put in creatures very fast (and Reanimate costs only 1).
So what's the real problem? The SnT? Or more Sneak Attack? Or is it just Emrakul with Anihilation?
I ask because in our group, I played against a weak SnT and the other deck would be my own SnT-Eureka.

So, if the answer is Emrakul, maybe some more Karakas would do the job if you have SnT heavy meta?

I think, Surgical Extraction is a must. Not sure about the Wails.
Also cutting him off of red helps against sneak. Taxes and grip should get that thing away.

[GoblinZ]

Surgical doesn't help unless you splash black for discard. Playing multiple karakas makes no sense, because you cannot have more than one in play simultaneously.I have not tried warping wail but theoretically I think it contradicts to our sphere effect.

I think sneakshow is our worst combo match up, they can play lotus petal early or play sol land on their combo turn to ignore our sphere effect. Also bloodmoon usually demands an answer.

thankfully at least grixis and DnT can keep sneakshow in check.

[Dice_Box]

I do not plan for SnT, because I think the sideboard space is better spent on other things. I just take my licks and move on.

[OldSpellMaster]

I didn't mean to have Karakas more than once on the field but a better chance to draw one (and just as an example if Emrakul is the problem. And yes I wouldn't do that as well ;-) ).

Against mana-artifacts you could use Revoker.

Surgical Extraction, yes the card must be in the grave. But how good will their deck be, if the SnT, Sneak or Omni is gone at all after their first try (if you're still in the game).
A SnT (card) could be countered, the creature karakased or whatever. The bigger problem would be Omni. But if you have Sphere or Trinisphere ready, there will just follow your turn after the omny. Answer it with Grip and extract SnT.

I don't say it's easy, but there are answers.

Oh, with the new coming Mirror card, you could even copy their cheated-in creatures :-)

And sideboardspace: If you know, there will be 25% SnT decks in your meta, shouldn't you add some cards against it?

[kravkenov]

Oh, with the new coming Mirror card, you could even copy their cheated-in creatures :-)

And sideboardspace: If you know, there will be 25% SnT decks in your meta, shouldn't you add some cards against it?

I already pre-ordered 4 Mirage Mirror and plan to play 2 maindeck for a while to test the card. I really think it can help and add a touch of control on several MUs, including SnT : If opponent cheat a creature, you can copy it and this will almost win you the game (draw 7, maybe even 14, or anhilate his board). If opponent cheat Sneak, well you still can copy a wasteland to cut him out of red. If he cheat Omni, there is your taxes effect and prey.

[.Ix]

Won the last 3 local 8-man tourneys with Lands, going 4-0 in all of them with 61 cards. The meta has turned fair all of a sudden - perfect.

Changed to Jund yesterday packing decay MD and deluge SB, since pfire wasn't doing enough and I was expecting the moon decks to come out. The switch only came up once - I got to decay a chalice on 1 vs Eldrazi. Still lost the game though, didnt draw loam or tutors and he had Wasteland for my combo long enough to get to Endbringer mana. :(

[GoblinZ]

Also won a 8 men tournament today.

2-1 vs Ur delver
2-0 vs elves
2-0 vs punishing Jund
2-1 vs Grixis delver

Mulliganed to five twice and won both games(the second game vs ur delver and the second game vs elves), feels good!

Besides, I tested powder keg today but never drew a single one.

[Mr Miagi]

Why keg over ratchet bomb?

[GoblinZ]

Why keg over ratchet bomb?

There are some reasons:

keg for one doesn't hurt our enchantment.

Rest in Peace sees much less play than surgical right now and I don't see anyone playing solitaire, so I don't need keg to answer enchantment.

I don't want to see my opponent decays my ratchet bomb while I tap it for putting counters, if my opponent tries to destroy my keg, I can explode it immediately.

But both keg and bomb are slow, unless I drop it early, so I am just testing.

Besides, I love the art of powder keg and wish my old-school toy could be a secret "new" tech:tongue:.

[JackaBo]

Why keg over ratchet bomb?

Saves enchantments

[hoernchen]

First, drop is not a pivotal part of the deck. Do not feel you must buy it.

Quarter v Port is a meta call. If you are going to face more decks with basics, or combo decks with a couple of basics (so they don't get stung too hard by Quarter) go port. If Leovold is the new poster boy for fun where you are, enjoy watching their mana base disappear with Quarter.

If you have both options and you don't know what's better for your meta, play Port. It's safe, it's effective and it's functionally more efficient with Spheres in play. I would suggest going to 3 and running at lest one Quarter though. That card is godly in some games.

The other important thing to think about is your optional slots and meta effect. Things like Bog v Karakas in the main, how often you think you will see Surgical (and thus demanding more cycling lands) and how useful the Blue splash may be for you.

Welcome aboard, in her dark name we do dedicate this performance.

Thank you for the first ideas. We have running around a fair amount of DnT at the moment which is really annoying ...

[Dice_Box]

Thank you for the first ideas. We have running around a fair amount of DnT at the moment which is really annoying ...

I run a pair of Heaven//Earth in the side. Makes DnT cry when you pull it off.

[Sparkii]

Kozilek's Return is still the best DnT sweeper for a surefire kill everything. I'm also partial to Subterranean Tremors even if the card is awful, haha.

[Cfetchcaviar]

I m still on volcanic fallout. It's been good to me

[grmpytopdecker]

I have been struggling against the TNN / Leovold decks at my LGS. I am running Jody Keith's list (got my Drops before the spike) and looking for some tips on strategy and sideboarding.

I am finding they are quite aggressive with their counters and hate for any kind of mana acceleration I run out there.

Against TNN I need to draw into the combo kill but a counter is always lurking to blow me out if I play anything to help with that (Loam, Gamble, Crop Rotation)

Against Leovold I can't attack their mana or any of their creatures without them drawing into more hate and then the helplessness sets in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[supremePINEAPPLE]

You could try some more removal since Jody's maindeck is a little light. Otherwise I'm jamming the combo at them as quickly as possible and being very aggressive regarding their manabase. Sparkii's academy ruins list has also been very nice against the 3-drop decks.

What particular counters are you having trouble with? Czech around me is running FoW with maybe a few Daze or Counterspell so it hasn't felt too bad to play through. Leovold's triggers and the crapton of sideboard cards are where I've had trouble personally.

[kravkenov]

Guys, I am very glad to announce that after many many month of trading I am finally in and got all the cards assambled to join you Lands players. Since I am all new to the deck I would like to ask you for a good starting point with the deck. [...] Can you tell me about your opinions how it is best to start, which list to try first, the best primer, ....

Hey, welcome and congrats to join the Lands-family. First, the deck looks not very flexible in cards choice, but it is. You have to think about function instead of cards. Let me explain : Lands is a deck build around synergies with Life from the Loam. Like every deck, in order to make it work (I mean, competitively), the deck should ideally do three thing. Pressure opponent strategy, protect its own strategy and have a kill condition. We pressure opponent strategy with mana-denial and protect our strategy by the kind of card we play. As our main "spells" are made of lands, it's hard to interact with or stop it from being resolved. Our main kill condition is also a land, which is pretty resilient against opponent's denial.

Enough of speech, let's take a look on the deck itself. The deck is build around land and recursion. So basically, Life from the Loam is the backbone of the deck. Lands provide multi-usage in form of mana-producer and mana-denial (wasteland) / utility (Academy Ruins) / Acceleration (pitch to Mox), etc. This is a huge advantage. While other deck play land for they only first purpose (mana producing), we play lands for mana of course, but also as soft removal, mana-denial, utility, acceleration and kill-condition. This is why we can afford playing only 8-10 "only mana" lands.

So, here is basically the Lands deck in therm of function.

4 Recursion spell (Life from the Loam)
8 Acceleration spell (Mox Diamond, Exploration, Manabond)
8 Library manipulation (Tutor like Crop Rotation, Gamble, Entomb, etc.)
12 Removals (Punishing Fire, Molten Vortex, Engineered Explosives, Barbarian Ring, Maze of Ith, Glacial Chasm, Karakas)
8 Mana denial (Rishadan Port, Wasteland, Ghost Quarter)
8 Kill condition (Therspian Stage and Dark Depths)
3 Utility (Academy Ruins, Bojuka Bog, Tranquil Thicket)
9 Mana

//SIDEBOARD
8 Removals (Krosan Grip, Phyrexian Revoker, Drop of Honey)
4 Alternative engine/kill condition (Tireless Tracker)
3 Mana denial (Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere, etc.)


Hope it will help you to build you very own list too. It's also very useful to think in "function" when you sideboard.


And translated in therme of cards, here is my own list :

4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
4 Gamble
4 Molten Vortex
2 FLEX SLOT
- Mirage Mirror
- Engineered Explosives
- Crucible of Worlds
— — 26 — —
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Dark Depths
2 Maze of Ith
1 Academy Ruins
2 Barbarian Ring
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Tropical Island (U/G Sheltered Ticket ?!)
3 Taiga
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
— — 34 — —

//SIDEBOARD
4 Tireless Tracker
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Naturalize // Krosan Grip
3 Sphere of Resistance
2 Drop of Honey

[Domri Rade]

I have been struggling against the TNN / Leovold decks at my LGS. I am running Jody Keith's list (got my Drops before the spike) and looking for some tips on strategy and sideboarding.

I am finding they are quite aggressive with their counters and hate for any kind of mana acceleration I run out there.

Against TNN I need to draw into the combo kill but a counter is always lurking to blow me out if I play anything to help with that (Loam, Gamble, Crop Rotation)

Against Leovold I can't attack their mana or any of their creatures without them drawing into more hate and then the helplessness sets in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The best way to deal with these decks is to either get a quick combo kill and hope they don't have a way to remove it. Reach a board state that you can recur glacial chasm so they can't kill you and then grind them out by either wasting/ghost quartering all their lands, punishing fire them to death, or find the combo and hopefully loam. Drop of Honey is obviously a good way to slow the game down to try and put one of these plans into action. You can also wasteland them out and put down a tabernacle to wipe their board.

[grmpytopdecker]

You could try some more removal since Jody's maindeck is a little light. Otherwise I'm jamming the combo at them as quickly as possible and being very aggressive regarding their manabase. Sparkii's academy ruins list has also been very nice against the 3-drop decks.

What particular counters are you having trouble with? Czech around me is running FoW with maybe a few Daze or Counterspell so it hasn't felt too bad to play through. Leovold's triggers and the crapton of sideboard cards are where I've had trouble personally.

I'd say 75% Spell Pierce, 24% Forces and 1% random counter spells.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Damn, that's a lot of spell pierces! Not too much you can do to play around that other than the normal patience or casting critical bait spells. If you know the Czech Pile players then I would personally mull slightly more aggressively to exploration (and combo in general) and try and get that on board by either rushing it out or using something else as bait depending on the rest of my hand and/or their opening play. In games 2 and 3 quick combo is a lot less likely to win with all of the edicts floating around so I prioritize grindy-ness and not being cold to surgical. It's a bit of a grind in my experience but I've always felt like they are more afraid of our mana-denial and combo than we are of whatever they are doing.

[Wiktul]

In my local meta I'm practically unable to play without Boseju. I have 2x Predict Miracles, 2x UR delver, 2x Grixis and 2x BUG delver, 1 Show&Tell, 1 Esper Deathblade, not to mention things like Standstill or Tezzerator, that like to show up ocasionally.

5 counters in a row to my Loam aimed at combo pieces (because if my oponent can have Swords in his opening hand - he will 100% times:tongue: ) can really hurt game plan based on "fast combo kill".

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

I would definitely not be playing boseiiju against Delver variants or Show and tell.

[thefreakaccident]

The best way to deal with these decks is to either get a quick combo kill and hope they don't have a way to remove it. Reach a board state that you can recur glacial chasm so they can't kill you and then grind them out by either wasting/ghost quartering all their lands, punishing fire them to death, or find the combo and hopefully loam. Drop of Honey is obviously a good way to slow the game down to try and put one of these plans into action. You can also wasteland them out and put down a tabernacle to wipe their board.

Drop of honey is terribe in Legacy. I tried to make it work, it just doesn't. Having to wait until your next upeep is a killer most of the time. Letting delver/goyf/some big fatty hit you one more time is NOT what you want out of a card meant to control the board.

It's especially terrible against agro to be honest.

[Chatto]

I would definitely not be playing boseiiju against Delver variants or Show and tell.

I can see you don't want to play Boseiju vs both decks (Wasteland and The Moon, I presume), but could you elaborate your reasons?


Drop of honey is terribe in Legacy. I tried to make it work, it just doesn't. Having to wait until your next upeep is a killer most of the time. Letting delver/goyf/some big fatty hit you one more time is NOT what you want out of a card meant to control the board.

It's especially terrible against agro to be honest.

Well, that's interesting. A lot of people seem to disagree. I myself have not played with DoH, so I really can't say anything on the subject.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Drop of honey is terribe in Legacy. I tried to make it work, it just doesn't. Having to wait until your next upeep is a killer most of the time. Letting delver/goyf/some big fatty hit you one more time is NOT what you want out of a card meant to control the board.

It's especially terrible against agro to be honest.That's great and all but it's not there for "agro", it's there for True-name and Leovold.

[Ingo]

About Boseiju, we have 2 kinds of cards, those that recur and those who don't.
Boseiju saves only the two cards that recur (loam and Pfire), so there's not really need of making them uncounterable as they're back the next draw/grovetap.
It would be different if Boseiju saved crops, gambles and explorations, but alas...

[GoblinZ]

I can see you don't want to play Boseiju vs both decks (Wasteland and The Moon, I presume), but could you elaborate your reasons?



Against sneakshow, boseiju is only good for protecting your rotation or gamble under spheres, but since the match-up is so bad that I don't see wasting room for boseiju could help it.

In addition to what Ingo have said, Delver could be very fast, 2 damages mean a lot, not to speak the tempo loss brought by boseiju. Imo, boseiju is really bad against delver decks.

[Chatto]

Against sneakshow, boseiju is only good for protecting your rotation or gamble under spheres, but since the match-up is so bad that I don't see wasting room for boseiju could help it.

In addition to what Ingo have said, Delver could be very fast, 2 damages mean a lot, not to speak the tempo loss brought by boseiju. Imo, boseiju is really bad against delver decks.

I must be tired, very solid reasons I should have known as well. I'll be off to bed then :smile:

[Lormador]

Jody actually did a really long and excellent deck tech right after the GP performance, and he explains all of his choices at fairly great depth: especially Drop of Honey. I'll be happy to summarize what he said, but check out the original, it's great. Keep in mind that I personally do not own this card, and will not be paying its post-spike price (I run blue, so I would argue that I don't need it). I've tested with it on Cockatrice, but that's it.

Drop of Honey is useful for a couple of reasons. Basically, first of all, whatever it kills is killed very cleanly (without cards from Leovold or encumbered by TNN/Nimble Mongoose/whatever). Certain creatures are good against Lands because they exploit the limitations of our most common removal spells, which generally deal 2 damage via target. Drop gets around all of that, adding diversity to the removal suite.

More than that, though, Drop works well with what the deck is trying to do long-term. Aspects of this take awhile to kick in, Wasteland and GQ have to be cycled a couple of times before the opponent is out of lands, we have to find and drop Tabernacle, Maze of Ith might be necessary, we need to build up a mana base for Grove recursion, etc. Drop slows them down so that more of this stuff can happen. Let's say they play 2 creatures. The choice is then to keep playing creatures to the board, feeding the Drop, or not play a creature for 2 turns and let those already on the field die to get rid of it. Both of those options sound really bad for them, right? Even with 1 creature on their board this is a nasty choice, with Drop requiring them to not play a creature for two whole turns. How many lands will you have left after those turns have passed? Not enough, I'm guessing.

I'll pick up a pair once they fall to $100, but I guess I might be waiting awhile.

In the meantime, apart from the Engineered Explosives that I love so much, I've had some good testing results with Dice_Box's Heaven/Earth idea. Sure, it can get Mom'ed, but it generally does so much damage to their board that whatever's left can be handled by the rest of the deck.

I do want to let go of my EE addiction, but I just love that old golden explosion so much, and I'm a fairly bad player who tends to be sitting across from stuff that a finer player wouldn't be sitting across from. EE blows that stuff up! And it's got elephants on it!

[Dice_Box]

I have seen questions popping up, I am thinking it might be time to try and give a more personal face to the deck. As far as I know there is no Discord channel for Lands, something that a lot of other decks have set up, so I did that tonight. The link is https://discord.gg/jthKsC5

If there is an already existing server, let me know.

[Chatto]

@ Lomardor: personally I don't think DoH will ho down again.

@ Dice: never heard of the app, will try it asap. What does it offer what the thread has not?

[Dice_Box]

@ Lomardor: personally I don't think DoH will ho down again.

@ Dice: never heard of the app, will try it asap. What does it offer what the thread has not?
Instant communication, a VoIP server, direct personal contact and the ability to draw in people who have the program but for whatever reason do not have an account here.

Also I have seen questions popping up like candy on Reddit. It gives those of us who know the deck a place to answer questions from those who are just picking it up but are more often than not on other platforms. As the size of the server grows, it becomes another tool for new players to network and seek out information.

[TLK]

Won my small local weekly Legacy event again last night. It was only my second time ever piloting the deck, but I've won the tourney both times.

Round 1 vs Grixis Delver:

I lose game 1 to due to Pyromancer and friends. He had double FoW to stifle my Crop Rotation -> Tabernacle plans.

I wasn't too sure what to side in, but I went with 2x Tireless Tracker (wasn't sure here), a Thorn of Amethyst and a Trinisphere. Sided out Karakas and the 3x Maze of Ith I believe. Game 2 I got a fast token and attacked for 20. Game 3 I'm able to land Thorn and Gamble for a Tabernacle and use Wastelands to keep him off mana. Tabernacle clears his Deathrite and Gurmag, and I land a Tireless Tracker for the win.

1-0, 2-1

Round 2 vs Aggro Loam:

Game 1 the deck does its thing. Maze of Ith keeps his Goyfs/Knights at bay while I Loam about 50 times until I finally find my combo pieces. His Chalice on 1 shut off the 2 Crop Rotations and Gamble in my hand.

Sided in the Ancient Grudge and 2x Krosan Grip and Drop of Honey (and something else; can't remember). Side out Karakas, Glacial Chasm and 3x Punishing Fire since they don't really kill anything in his deck (he was running Goyf over Bob). I won game 2 by dredging a Grudge into my graveyard, flashing it back to destroy his Chalice on 1, land an Exploration, play a Tabernacle and then a Drop of Honey to clear the board of his Goyf and Knight. Combo shortly thereafter.

2-0, 2-0

Round 3 vs Burn:

Scary matchup. He wins game 1 fairly easily. Side out 3x Maze of Ith, Karakas, Tabernacle, Manabond and something else. Side in Zuran Orb, Trinisphere, 4x Sphere of Resistance, 1 Thorn of Amethyst. Game 2 I land a turn 1 Exploration, turn 2 Trinisphere then quick token kill. Game 3 was super close. He gets me down to 4, I Crop Rotate into Glacial Chasm to avoid lethal, take the 2 on my upkeep, then Loam into a Stage (already had Exploration in play). I fetch down to 1 and then assemble the Chasm/Stage lock and ping him to death with Molten Vortex. Since this was only my second time piloting the deck and first time attempting the Chasm lock, I think I did a solid job (opponent was fairly new to Legacy and wasn't really sure what was going on, nor did he know there was a slight window of opportunity to kill me in my upkeep should I mess up the chain - luckily his hand was all Sorcery speed, but alas...), but I'd really appreciate it if someone could explain how to properly keep the chain going without giving the opponent that small window to kill me. Once I got two Stages in play it was easy since I just had one copy the other and sac the copied one without ever having to bring Chasm back (and then have to sac a land).

3-0, 2-1

Round 4 vs ???:

Intentional Draw to split prize

Anyway, if someone doesn't want to read all of this, can you please at least address the bolded part above? I also pasted it below. Thanks!

Since this was only my second time piloting the deck and first time attempting the Chasm lock, I think I did a solid job (opponent was fairly new to Legacy and wasn't really sure what was going on, nor did he know there was a slight window of opportunity to kill me in my upkeep should I mess up the chain - luckily his hand was all Sorcery speed, but alas...), but I'd really appreciate it if someone could explain how to properly keep the chain going without giving the opponent that small window to kill me. Once I got two Stages in play it was easy since I just had one copy the other and sac the copied one without ever having to bring Chasm back (and then have to sac a land).

[Ingo]

For a chasm lock, I want an Exploration, Loam, Stage and Chasm (or a gamble/crop to get these). With these four, you can keep Chasm in play (also during upkeep) and pay two life each two turns, while dropping lands and dredging for your second Stage. As you mentioned, once you have the second Stage, you can keep chasm in play forever without paying life (well, until your library runs out or unless your opponent somehow interacts). Burn can interact game2 and 3 with gravehate.

[kravkenov]

I would add a thing about Chasm lock. If it ever happens, be careful with Stage being a copy of Chasm. Age counter on Stage will stay even if it is no longer copying Chasm. Age counter will not be erased by copying something else. It might be useful to know before declaring "I pay" for cumulative upkeep.

[GoblinZ]

Do not side out maze against delver decks.

I don't like thorn or tireless tracker in this match up.

[TLK]

Do not side out maze against delver decks.

I don't like thorn or tireless tracker in this match up.

Yeah, I instantly figured that out afterwards regarding Maze. Tracker was what won me game 3, but I can see it being the wrong choice. What DO you side in/out vs Delver?

[kravkenov]

Yeah, I instantly figured that out afterwards regarding Maze. Tracker was what won me game 3, but I can see it being the wrong choice. What DO you side in/out vs Delver?

+4 Tracker
-2 Crop -1 Bojuka -1 Karakas

So this is my sideboarding plan against Delver deck. Drop of Honey dosent really help here since Delver deck usually play with tempo. They main goal is to disrupt our spell with counter, our manabase with stifle/wasteland while throwing a single creature to victory. They usually dosent play much creature so Drop dosent really help in this MU.

Tracker on the other hand really shine. It keep the "who draw often/better" war at a fair level while providing a huge creature to deal with. Crop is a terrible card to get counter, Karakas and Bojuka dosent help much too.

[Lormador]

My sideboard against Delver:

-1 Manabond
-3 Gamble

+2 Tireless Tracker
+1 Chalice of the Void
+1 Seismic Assault

I simply try to avoid any graveyard hate they've brought in (mostly Surgical Extraction), and appreciate Tracker as a thing that can get in the way of a Gurmag Angler that my list otherwise has a hard time beating (only Maze of Ith stops it). Chalice randomly generates free wins. Seismic Assault could be anything, really, I've brought in Ancient Tomb in that spot before to power out the other sideboard cards, combo more quickly, and mess up Pierce/Daze plans.

I personally don't like siding out any lands against Delver or most decks in general unless they really, really do nothing. They help to play around soft counters, fuel Mox Diamond, get value from Loam's random flips to the graveyard, etc. Crop Rotation I'm firing either in response to a Wasteland or when I have no other choice but a desperation Rotation.

[djxstream]

+4 Tracker
-2 Crop -1 Bojuka -1 Karakas

So this is my sideboarding plan against Delver deck.

I wouldn't take out crop rotation vs a wasteland deck. 2 cents.

[GoblinZ]

delver decks usually only play one spell pierce, I would not side out crop rotation for that, and I want to win with it as quickly as possible, especially against ur delver.

I would bring tracker in against midrange aggro-control, control and combo but would not play it against delver decks.

personally, vs grixis

-1 rishadan port
-1 gamble
-1 karakas

+1 chalice
+2 sweepers

vs ur delver
-1 karakas
-1 ghost quarter
-1 gamble
+1 chalice
+2 sweeper

[kravkenov]

I wouldn't take out crop rotation vs a wasteland deck. 2 cents.

I side-out Crop because if it get countered, you just Wasteland yourself. But yes, Cropping in response to an opponent Wasteland activation feels great too.

[manadrain]

Just so I'm clear with the chasm lock once you have two stages going you still have to sacrifice a land correct?

[Chatto]

Just so I'm clear with the chasm lock once you have two stages going you still have to sacrifice a land correct?

No, because saccing is only required when you put Chasm into play. Your lands are already in play. You do sac one, because you don't pay the upkeep.

[Claymore]

Think what they're saying is:

Play Chasm
Upkeep, copy it with Stage 1. Sac Chasm.
Play Stage 2
Upkeep, copy Stage 1 with 2 (it becomes a chasm). Sac Stage 1.
Play Stage 1.
Repeat.

[Dice_Box]

Yes, and keeping that lock in place, if you get three Stage you can Loam less often, drawing cards in hope of finding Gamble or Exploration.

[Lormador]

Do not side out maze against delver decks.

I don't like thorn or tireless tracker in this match up.

But.... but... Tracker makes the pretty little light in their eyes go out, that light that began sparkling when they resolved Surgical Extraction and Pithing Needle...

[Crimhead]

Yes, and keeping that lock in place, if you get three Stage you can Loam less often, drawing cards in hope of finding Gamble or Exploration.You can also occasionally eat the 2 life if you want to draw cards.

[gigapatrick]

I would add a thing about Chasm lock. If it ever happens, be careful with Stage being a copy of Chasm. Age counter on Stage will stay even if it is no longer copying Chasm. Age counter will not be erased by copying something else. It might be useful to know before declaring "I pay" for cumulative upkeep.

This isn't actually correct. I've done the Chasm-lock on Modo enough times to know that age counters do not transfer when using a Stage to copy a Chasm.

Edit: Sorry, misread your post. Age counters will stay on a Stage that has copied a Chasm and then copied something else--but if it's copied something else, why would you have to pay any life for the counters?

[filln]

This isn't actually correct. I've done the Chasm-lock on Modo enough times to know that age counters do not transfer when using a Stage to copy a Chasm.

To clarify, I think kravkenov was referring to a scenario in which you have a Stage that has copied Chasm and you decide to pay the upkeep (add an age counter, pay 2 life), and then use that same Stage to copy a different land, say a Forest. Your Stage/Forest will retain its age counter, meaning that if you later use it to copy a Chasm again and pay the upkeep, you'll pay 4 life the first go-around since there would then be two age counters on the Stage.

gigapatrick is of course correct that the Stage's copy ability does not copy the counters that exist on a targeted land. Which is a great thing or else the Depths combo would be a lot less fun for us. :cool:

[manadrain]

Thanks for the help guys!

[kravkenov]

To clarify, I think kravkenov was referring to a scenario in which you have a Stage that has copied Chasm and you decide to pay the upkeep (add an age counter, pay 2 life), and then use that same Stage to copy a different land, say a Forest. Your Stage/Forest will retain its age counter, meaning that if you later use it to copy a Chasm again and pay the upkeep, you'll pay 4 life the first go-around since there would then be two age counters on the Stage.

gigapatrick is of course correct that the Stage's copy ability does not copy the counters that exist on a targeted land. Which is a great thing or else the Depths combo would be a lot less fun for us. :cool:

Yes that is that. Sorry, poor English.

[dimignon]

Hi Guys,

In this Weekend I am going to play a local tournament here in Brazil, which will have approximately 80 players.

This is the list I'm thinking of using:

Maindeck:

4 x Wasteland
4 x Grove of the Burnwillows
4 x Thespian's Stage
3 x Rishadan Port
3 x Dark Depths
3 x Maze of Ith
2 x Ghost Quarter
2 x Taiga
1 x Forest
1 x Verdant Catacombs
1 x Misty Rainforest
1 x Wooded Foothils
1 x Glacial Chams
1 x Karakas
1 x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 x Barbarian Ring
1 x Tranquil Thicket
1 x Sheltered Thicket
1 x Horizon Canopy
4 x Mox Diamond
4 x Exploration
4 x Crop Rotation
4 x Gamble
4 x Life from the loam
3 x Punishing Fire
1 x Molten Vortex
1 x Mirage Mirror

Sidedeck

4 x Sphere of Resistance
1 x Thorn of Amethyst
1 x Pithing Needle
3 x Krosan Grip
1 x Ancient Grudge
1 x Kozilek's Return
2 x Tireless Tracker
1 x Bojuka Bog
1 x Ancient Tomb

Here in Brasil we have a lot of delver and death and taxes. Show and Tell and Burn always pops up to. And Miracles, Storm, Agro Loam and Elves mark your presence.

What do you think about this list?

[Ciubulu]

Mirage mirror is a nice idea but my suggestion is to try it side maybe switching in the tomb that's a good jolly to have game one to attempt an unexpected 20/20 with 3 lands out of a eot crop rotation.

[Lormador]

I'm quite chagrined that Miracles is somehow in the DTB section while we're down here with "hoi poloi" in coach. We shall see what the real control deck in the format is! They cannot contain the power of Loam without that little banned trinket! This is not over!

Regarding the above list, it's a small point really compared to the brave placement of Mirage Mirror in the main, but I do think it's important to play 4 fetch lands in order to maximize the value of Life from the Loam, and I personally think the value of the 4th fetch land exceeds that of the third "draw land," though it's cool that the above list does indeed play all of them.

I'm playing Port and Choke in my RUG list with 1 Trop, which is fine to fuel just Ruins and EE. I've tested it a ton. If the only blue requirement is exactly Ruins, one Trop is plenty. It doesn't clash with Choke because when Choke sticks it straight up wins, the land being small potatoes then. And it can always be used as fodder for various things in that state anyway.

[JPoJohnson]

I'm bad with rules and I'm just curious about this situation:

I have a Mirage Mirror in play. I use it to copy a Thespian's Stage and then activate it to copy a Forest. What happens?

[Claymore]

Should just be a Forest with the Stage ability, and end of turn the delayed trigger is put on the stack and the Mirror Forest turns back into a regular mirror.

[juzamjimjams]

Lormador - Is there somewhere online you have this list? I'm intrigued.

[Lormador]

Lormador - Is there somewhere online you have this list? I'm intrigued.

I deserve no credit for this list, I just take Sparkii's lists and tweak a few cards here and there to suit my tastes.

// 60 Maindeck
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond

4 Exploration
1 Manabond

4 Crop Rotation
3 Punishing Fire

1 Academy Ruins
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Rishadan Port
1 Windswept Heath
2 Tranquil Thicket

3 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam


// 15 Sideboard
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Pithing Needle
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Choke
3 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Tomb

[PaulR]

Hi guys, I was following this tread for awile but just made an account to be able to ask questions and share my personal experiences with the deck. I've been playing Lands since its only wincondition was creeping tar pit. Had a couple of deep day 2 runs at GP's with different versions of the deck (RG,RUG, splashing white) and recently picked up the deck online and managed to 5-0 a League last week under the name Noloam ;)

Here some sideboard cards that impressed me lately:

-Zuran Orb:really strong against UR delver and Burn to make PoP way less painfull, but also won me games Vs Ant
-Trinisphere: I played literally hundreds of games against Ant as a good friend of mine played the deck for years. I tested multiple sideboard configurations with various numbers of chalices, spheres and Thorns, but the matchup remained a very hard one. I recently cut the last chalice from the board and remplaced it with Trinisphere. Since then my winpercentage in sideboard games increased significantly.
-Drop of Honey: I unfortunately don't own one in RL but playing this card online certainly made the difference in games Vs DnT and DRS decks

[dimignon]

Mirage mirror is a nice idea but my suggestion is to try it side maybe switching in the tomb that's a good jolly to have game one to attempt an unexpected 20/20 with 3 lands out of a eot crop rotation.

Maybe switch Ancient Tomb with Mirror is a better Ideia. Thanks for the suggestion.



Regarding the above list, it's a small point really compared to the brave placement of Mirage Mirror in the main, but I do think it's important to play 4 fetch lands in order to maximize the value of Life from the Loam, and I personally think the value of the 4th fetch land exceeds that of the third "draw land," though it's cool that the above list does indeed play all of them.

I am very comfortable with 3 fetch lands, since the is RG. And I prefer 3 draw lands because Surgical Extraction, because it is currently on most sidedecks
But thanks for the help.

[juzamjimjams]

I deserve no credit for this list, I just take Sparkii's lists and tweak a few cards here and there to suit my tastes.

// 60 Maindeck
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond

4 Exploration
1 Manabond

4 Crop Rotation
3 Punishing Fire

1 Academy Ruins
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Rishadan Port
1 Windswept Heath
2 Tranquil Thicket

3 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam


// 15 Sideboard
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Pithing Needle
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Choke
3 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Tomb


Thanks boss. Has the splash felt worth it so far?

[TLK]

Made it three weeks in a row at my local weekly Legacy event last night. Still undefeated with the deck (8-0 with 3 ID's to split first) and didn't even drop a game last night.

Round 1 vs Blue/something control:

Nothing much to say about this match. Got quick tokens both games. I literally only saw Baral, Brainstorm and Force of Will from his deck. Easy win.

1-0, 2-0

Round 2 vs Jeskai Stoneblade:

Game 1 I got an early token which ate a Plow so I went to 40 life. A Maze of Ith kept his Batterskull at bay until I was able to Loam back the combo pieces and win. Game 2 was much of the same, except this time he didn't have a Plow.

2-0, 2-0

Round 3 vs Grixis Delver:

Game 1 was super close. He got me down to 1 w/Delver, Pyromancer and tokens, but I was able to stay alive with multiple Maze of Iths, P. Fire/Barbarian Ring killing off his guys every turn and Loaming until I could find the combo pieces. Game 2, he had Force of Will for my Molten Vortex and Gamble. He has 3 Deathrite Shamans in play, but I'm able to Wasteland him down to zero lands and play a Trinisphere to buy some time. Luckily, my next two draws are Thespian's Stage and Dark Depths, so I'm able to combo from there.

3-0, 2-0

Round 4 ID w/Burn

Deck is still fantastic! I definitely need more practice w/how to sideboard. Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

[caprino]

Made it three weeks in a row at my local weekly Legacy event last night. Still undefeated with the deck (8-0 with 3 ID's to split first) and didn't even drop a game last night.

Round 1 vs Blue/something control:

Nothing much to say about this match. Got quick tokens both games. I literally only saw Baral, Brainstorm and Force of Will from his deck. Easy win.

1-0, 2-0

Round 2 vs Jeskai Stoneblade:

Game 1 I got an early token which ate a Plow so I went to 40 life. A Maze of Ith kept his Batterskull at bay until I was able to Loam back the combo pieces and win. Game 2 was much of the same, except this time he didn't have a Plow.

2-0, 2-0

Round 3 vs Grixis Delver:

Game 1 was super close. He got me down to 1 w/Delver, Pyromancer and tokens, but I was able to stay alive with multiple Maze of Iths, P. Fire/Barbarian Ring killing off his guys every turn and Loaming until I could find the combo pieces. Game 2, he had Force of Will for my Molten Vortex and Gamble. He has 3 Deathrite Shamans in play, but I'm able to Wasteland him down to zero lands and play a Trinisphere to buy some time. Luckily, my next two draws are Thespian's Stage and Dark Depths, so I'm able to combo from there.

3-0, 2-0

Round 4 ID w/Burn

Deck is still fantastic! I definitely need more practice w/how to sideboard. Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

Nice!! Decklist? Thanks

[TLK]

Nice!! Decklist? Thanks

// 60 Maindeck
4 Mox Diamond

4 Exploration
1 Manabond
1 Molten Vortex

4 Crop Rotation
3 Punishing Fire

1 Barbarian Ring
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Sheltered Thicket
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam


// 15 Sideboard
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Drop of Honey
3 Krosan Grip
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Trinipshere
1 Zuran Orb


Not sure about the sideboard, but that's mostly because I'm not too confident on how to side in/out with the deck yet.

[kravkenov]

Deck is still fantastic! I definitely need more practice w/how to sideboard. Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

Not sure about the sideboard, but that's mostly because I'm not too confident on how to side in/out with the deck yet.

I'm working on a google doc sideboarding plan, but it's currently not being complete and still need more improvement / correction. If any one is interested to help, I share the "doc in progress" by PM (but I'm still busy these time with my kids), so it mights take few days).

[TLK]

I'm working on a google doc sideboarding plan, but it's currently not being complete and still need more improvement / correction. If any one is interested to help, I share the "doc in progress" by PM (but I'm still busy these time with my kids), so it mights take few days).

I would definitely be interested.

[dimignon]

// 60 Maindeck
4 Mox Diamond

4 Exploration
1 Manabond
1 Molten Vortex

4 Crop Rotation
3 Punishing Fire

1 Barbarian Ring
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Sheltered Thicket
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam


// 15 Sideboard
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Drop of Honey
3 Krosan Grip
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Trinipshere
1 Zuran Orb


Not sure about the sideboard, but that's mostly because I'm not too confident on how to side in/out with the deck yet.

I like the main deck, but your sideboard have 16 cards. I think you list one more.

[TLK]

I like the main deck, but your sideboard have 16 cards. I think you list one more.

Whoops, sorry. 2 K. Grip, not 3. Still undecided on Ghost Quarter vs Rishadan Port.

[OldSpellMaster]

Still undecided on Ghost Quarter vs Rishadan Port.

I have similar problems. Want to include more than I have slots left for.
I want a control-build, so I decided for RUG and Ports.
Then, GQ became better and slow components of RUG had to be replaced.
I'm now at 3ports 2GQ, but want to go back to the full 4ports (it took long to get them... One of the reasons); but don't want to cut a GQ. Finally, I cut mana-lands for ability lands with the risk to not get the needed mana. I don't know what to do. Don't wanna cut blue or EE or CoW. I'm already at 61 cards.

[TLK]

I've thought about cutting the maindeck Karakas for a Port and perhaps shaving a GQ to add a second Port. I seem to side Karakas out in every match (I think there's one S&T deck in my meta, so I'd probably move it to the side).

[OldSpellMaster]

I've thought about cutting the maindeck Karakas for a Port and perhaps shaving a GQ to add a second Port. I seem to side Karakas out in every match (I think there's one S&T deck in my meta, so I'd probably move it to the side).

I wanted as much land-answers as possible in the main, that's why Karakas is still there. But you're right, I could put it in the side... If I could find a slot...

[grmpytopdecker]

Played in the Legacy Daily at GP Toronto yesterday -- 4 round event. Went 2-1-1, splitting in round 4 cuz my opponent wanted to go eat dinner. Beat Grixis Delver 2-0, won the mirror 2-1, lost to Infect 0-2. Hoping to go back tomorrow and play some more


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Chatto]

@ TLK and OSM: I'm on 4 GQ, lot of greedy manabases in my meta. Unless your meta is filled with combo (SnT, Storm-based) I feel like GQ is the better choice. About Karakas: it's been in my sb for almost a year now. It will stay there for the time being.

@ grmpytopdecker: Congrats! How did you find the mirror-, and Infect-MU?

[Crimhead]

I've thought about cutting the maindeck Karakas for a Port and perhaps shaving a GQ to add a second Port. I seem to side Karakas out in every match (I think there's one S&T deck in my meta, so I'd probably move it to the side).

I don't recommend running 1 or 2 Ports. Ports are best in the earlier turns, and in multiples. A lone Port drawn later isn't as good, and you'll get that too often with 1 or 2.

If you want to run Ports (meta-call), make space for at least 3. Cut the Karakas and 2 or 3 GQs for a 3:2 or 4:1 split.

[Lormador]

Port and Karakas are some of my favorite cards in the deck, and I love even just talking about them. I'll start with Port.

Awhile ago I made as thorough a "+/-" list as I could for Port and Ghost Quarter, but I don't feel much like digging it out. The exercise is probably better if done by the pilot considering the question and the context of the particular metagame and sideboard we're playing in.

For my money (literally because Port is more expensive than it should be imho), Port gets the nod. I play RUG, a very light splash with one Trop and 2 EE in the deck, and everything else straight RG. It was hard for me to hang up my Intuitions, though I was happy to get rid of Tolaria West due to how slow it is. Anyway, that's neither here nor there.

Rishadan Port goes up in value if a couple of things are going on. First, it's better if your board is equipped with sphere effects. The more sphere effects, and the less CotV you play, the better Port will bring. Port doesn't help Chalice cut anything off, and Chalice@2 is probably never ever going to get cast out of Lands, and 3 is barely even thinkable.... so Port offers no help and GQ doesn't really interact with either plan.

Rishadan Port gets a bit of value added to it if you're going to be playing against Sneaky Show or Miracles more than Delver and friends (or other decks where it's a Strip Mine, too many to list). Against Miracles now I'm almost beyond caring, since Jace falls to the fires without much trouble now that Counterbalance doesn't protect him. Sneaky Show is going to remain a bad matchup (not a little bad, ultra bad) so that almost doesn't matter, either.

These are pretty minor. In my view, the real reason to play Port is if you're playing Engineered Explosives. EE is so mana hungry that you need to be building up a base for awhile in order to get 3 counters on it and crack it immediately: so that's 5. Eight if you want to recur it immediately, so 5 minimum if you only want to crack it on 1 counter. These mana-hungry plays aren't easy to make if your GQs are in the grave vs. Ports that are on the field.

Port copies better with Stage, which is a good reason to run it. GQ isn't as good in that scenario.

The most ruthless (if a bit corner) use of Rishadan Port is to tap an opponent's Island into a Choke. I have renewed my love for Choke and am playing the card, my single Tropical Island be damned.

Karakas I don't think makes the cut for a sideboard card. It hits opposing Marit Lage tokens, Thalia, rarely Emrakul... I don't see the value for it anymore, though it does make the mirror far more convenient. It doesn't produce the right color of mana. I have cut Karakas and have not missed the card. I think the "card drawing" lands (Canopy, Tranquil, Sheltered) are all better than that right now. We don't need to care about Thalia (burn her with fire) like other control decks do.

Does anyone have any Mirror results at this time? I'd like to try the card, but actually I'm starting to come out against CMC 3 spells in the deck as I am very often Exploding that number. Choke is an exception!

[Crimhead]

The more sphere effects, and the less CotV you play, the better Port will bring. Port doesn't help Chalice cut anything off, and Chalice@2 is probably never ever going to get cast out of Lands...

vs Storm, CotV on 2 cuts them off Recall or Echoing Truth, thus protecting the Chalices on 0 & 1. I've done this before - they scoop.

More on point, Port does have synergy with Chalice.

Chalice on 1 has a similar effect as Sphere, in that the opponent needs 2 mana to cast anything. Ports can slow them off of that (and give you time to find more denial and/or the combo).

Otherwise, excellent post!

[Sesso]

Anybody know what David Longs list looks like atm? I'm watching the SCG tour and they mentioned that hes playing main board burning with, and It sounds very interesting.

[Emrakul503]

3 Lands in the top 8 of the team constructed SCG this weekend! Also, 3 in the top 16 of the classic, one of which splashes black for Decay and Thoughtseize. Good time for lands!

Also, David Longs list is here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=115059

Very interesting Burning Wish package he went with.

[grmpytopdecker]

@ TLK and OSM: I'm on 4 GQ, lot of greedy manabases in my meta. Unless your meta is filled with combo (SnT, Storm-based) I feel like GQ is the better choice. About Karakas: it's been in my sb for almost a year now. It will stay there for the time being.

@ grmpytopdecker: Congrats! How did you find the mirror-, and Infect-MU?

I have played a lot of the mirror, there is a very good Lands player at my LGS. I sideboard out some Depths and get on the Tracker + Bog loop plan. Works quite well.

Infect I am less sure about. I think I am overboarding -- I brought in Spheres and KGrips and Grudge and sided out Mazes and some other stuff. Both Infect folks said Maze was the thing they worried the most about. Don't they play Vines to make their creatures hexproof?

Yesterday I went 2-2. no-show rnd 1, lost to Alluren round 2, punted against OmniShow g3 (could've made a token and survived an Emrakuhl attack but brain-locked and rotated for a Karakas) and beat Infect 2-0


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ingo]

3 Lands in the top 8 of the team constructed SCG this weekend! Also, 3 in the top 16 of the classic, one of which splashes black for Decay and Thoughtseize. Good time for lands!

Also, David Longs list is here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=115059

Very interesting Burning Wish package he went with.

Interesting Wishplan, love the devastating dreams, but it only answers TNN along with Tabernacle, and TNN is about my biggest concern against fair decks.
Maybe a blacksplash for Toxic Deluge, although it's quite demanding on the manabase (you always want green, need red for Wish, and Black for Deluge)?
In black there's also Last Rites (Kurt Spiess played this once long ago) against combo, a bit slow but probably the best anti-combo-sorcery considering a manacurve of 2 (Wish) into 3 (Rites).




Infect I am less sure about. I think I am overboarding -- I brought in Spheres and KGrips and Grudge and sided out Mazes and some other stuff. Both Infect folks said Maze was the thing they worried the most about. Don't they play Vines to make their creatures hexproof?



I wouldn't board in spheres against infect, as we also want to play multiple effects a turn.
Kgrips and Grudge are handy for the hate and you can always use them on Inkmoth too.
But why would you want to side out maze, as they need to deal combat damage?
Sure they can play Vines, but you could also respond to Vines with Pfire, or crop for Chasm.
Those are quite some angles for them to cover.

[walked]

Interesting Wishplan, love the devastating dreams, but it only answers TNN along with Tabernacle, and TNN is about my biggest concern against fair decks.
Maybe a blacksplash for Toxic Deluge, although it's quite demanding on the manabase (you always want green, need red for Wish, and Black for Deluge)?
In black there's also Last Rites (Kurt Spiess played this once long ago) against combo, a bit slow but probably the best anti-combo-sorcery considering a manacurve of 2 (Wish) into 3 (Rites).


.

Speaking of TNN; what are people using as gameplans to beat it? Just combo faster? Keep them off lands? Some tech I'm missing? Or just relying on Drop of Honey?

[OldSpellMaster]

Speaking of TNN; what are people using as gameplans to beat it? Just combo faster? Keep them off lands? Some tech I'm missing? Or just relying on Drop of Honey?

EE

[Lormador]

TNN has never been a problem for me. Either he can't be cast to begin with because I'm all up in that manabase, or he lands before I get all up in that manabase and Tabernacle takes him down, or he does not deal enough damage before Marit Lage is decisive, or he gets stuck in a Glacial Chasm, or of course my favorite thing to do to him is blow him up along with all the other CMC 3 rubbish with Engineered Explosives.

I'd say it's probably more of an issue for straight RG with no U for EE (whoopee it's alphabet time today), but straight RG plays more combo cards and this switches one answer (killing it) for another (killing the other player). It is therefore unlikely to be much of an issue for either deck.

I'm really happy to be in a meta where the fair decks are trying to go bigger than each other and out-fair themselves because most of the cards they do that with are just embarrassing against Lands. TNN is a good problem to have.

[Dice_Box]

I am going to put Blue down for a few weeks and try Wish. Mostly because the idea of casting a card like Dreams just makes me happy.

[Crimhead]

I am going to put Blue down for a few weeks and try Wish. Mostly because the idea of casting a card like Dreams just makes me happy.

I'm thinking of putting blue away to try the RGb version (I've played lots of RUGb, but never straight RGb). I need 1 Decay, 1 Vortex, and 4 Thoughtseizes though (and I'm poor).

Regarding Zac Dalton's list, I can't imagine splashing black without Nether Void. That card is just so good!

[OldSpellMaster]

I'm thinking of putting blue away to try the RGb version (I've played lots of RUGb, but never straight RGb). I need 1 Decay, 1 Vortex, and 4 Thoughtseizes though (and I'm poor).

Regarding Zac Dalton's list, I can't imagine splashing black without Nether Void. That card is just so good!

Nether Void is (was) great but seems too slow.

[Chatto]

You'll probably never going to cast Nether Void. Great card, I had two but indeed too slow in most cases.

[Crimhead]

Nether Void is (was) great but seems too slow.
If we can land a CotV vs Storm (or resolve a Thoughtseize), we should buy enough time to play it. I guess it's better with Ports, which facilitate a higher curve than GQ.

Storm has been ramping up on artifact hate lately, but they pretty much can't win through NV.

And it shuts down Omniscience if you put it in with S&T.

Storm and Omnitell haven't gotten any faster, so I don't see NV as being too slow compared to a year or two ago. I used to play it in RUGb, though. Maybe it's a poorer fit in RGb?

Edit - I really don't understand why everyone seems to think we need to be so much faster these days. Like Lormador says:


I'm really happy to be in a meta where the fair decks are trying to go bigger than each other and out-fair themselves because most of the cards they do that with are just embarrassing against Lands.

But at the same everyone seems to think T.West - an uncounterable tutor that finds EE, Zorb, CotV, or any land - is too slow. It's 3 mana and we have 8+ excellerants (and we can grind as well as anyone).

[Ingo]

Edit - I really don't understand why everyone seems to think we need to be so much faster these days.


The meta hasn't changed in needing more speed. There are multiple ways to play Lands, more combo-oriented or controlminded depending on the players mindset. It's one of the phrases of Jody Keith's decktech that stuck for me, that Lands can be tweaked in many different ways, depending on the players mindset.

But I do think that some exemplar players, Jody Keith in particular, are playing a more combominded game. Look at the maindeck Tomb. He also described Lands as combo-control for example. And not control-combo, as most of us would probably describe the deck. Might be coïncidence though.

[Lormador]

I don't think it's the 3 mana that kills T West, it's the UU in the cost that must be paid at sorcery speed. That's pretty poor against DRS, and I think the UU necessitates double Tropical Island... and now we're looking at Intuition > Gamble. Either that, or we're going to have a tough manabase. I've tried playing several configurations of mana-producing lands to support bases featuring Intuition + Gamble and it's always been awkward at best.

Then I laid out all the tutors side by side and asked which ones I really wanted in my deck. The combotastic, no drawback Tinkeresque Crop Rotation is auto 4-of. Intuition + Tolaria West has this appeal of being able to find everything and solve any problem, but that cost of 3 means you are giving your opponent the opportunity to assemble whatever his deck does to stop that spell from resolving: up to and including just killing you before it can be cast. Counterspell, Daze, Spell Pierce, discard spells, tax effects, a fast Eldrazi beatdown, Tendrils of Agony, all are live against Intuition. Against the workaday Gamble, however, there's must so much less the other player can do. I'm very unlikely to be killed before I can resolve it, tax effects won't stop it, discard has to pluck it T1 on the play, and all the blue spells except Force of Will depend on having mana open or an Island in play. There is, furthermore, an extremely limited opportunity for cantrips to find these reduced answers for the card, whereas with Intuition you're letting the other player Ponder, Brainstorm, fetch, Ponder again before you put it on the stack.

I guess it's possible that Tolaria West is playable without Intuition, since it's the Intuition that I'm really against and not so much the tutor land. I suppose I'll test that out.

I am interested in possibly running Vendilion Clique out of the sideboard, in conjunction with MD Karakas. It seems like a reasonable configuration to offer against any control deck, or the mirror, and a legit way to take out a Leovold (who seems to love boldly attacking into open Maze of Ith and Punishing Fire just as though his 3 power butt were invincible). Far from dead against combo.... but slow of course. Not a bad card to respond to Show and Tell with.

I'm searching for a card that will really put the nail in the coffin against the new Miracles deck.... skilled players have been giving me some trouble. I don't want to go overboard and I don't want to play into their counterspell plan.... perhaps Crucible is the card I want.

[OldSpellMaster]

I don't think it's the 3 mana that kills T West, it's the UU in the cost that must be paid at sorcery speed. That's pretty poor against DRS, and I think the UU necessitates double Tropical Island... and now we're looking at Intuition > Gamble. Either that, or we're going to have a tough manabase. I've tried playing several configurations of mana-producing lands to support bases featuring Intuition + Gamble and it's always been awkward at best.

Then I laid out all the tutors side by side and asked which ones I really wanted in my deck. The combotastic, no drawback Tinkeresque Crop Rotation is auto 4-of. Intuition + Tolaria West has this appeal of being able to find everything and solve any problem, but that cost of 3 means you are giving your opponent the opportunity to assemble whatever his deck does to stop that spell from resolving: up to and including just killing you before it can be cast. Counterspell, Daze, Spell Pierce, discard spells, tax effects, a fast Eldrazi beatdown, Tendrils of Agony, all are live against Intuition. Against the workaday Gamble, however, there's must so much less the other player can do. I'm very unlikely to be killed before I can resolve it, tax effects won't stop it, discard has to pluck it T1 on the play, and all the blue spells except Force of Will depend on having mana open or an Island in play. There is, furthermore, an extremely limited opportunity for cantrips to find these reduced answers for the card, whereas with Intuition you're letting the other player Ponder, Brainstorm, fetch, Ponder again before you put it on the stack.

I guess it's possible that Tolaria West is playable without Intuition, since it's the Intuition that I'm really against and not so much the tutor land. I suppose I'll test that out.

Great post. It's what I wanted to say about Tolaria West and Intuition. I cut Intuition because of the reasons you mentioned plus it is a lost card when loamed away. Well, Gamble is lost as well but I wanna have Gamble in my first hand, Intuition not... And if I have to Intuition into Loam, Academy Ruins and an Artifact, it takes at least another turn until I get to play the Artifact etc.
Oh, and we all sided Intuition out 95% of the time.
So, when Intuition got cut, TW was the only reason to play so much Tropical Islands. Which feels strange. Counterbalance wasn't the big problem anymore, so having that uncounterable tutor wasn't that necessary... Still like TW. Suits well in a Lands deck (it IS a land); but... well... Its not really needed midgame to loamtutor the best cards. Normally you have your stuff done at that point.

So, that was Intuition and TW.
Nether Void: Again, it IS a great card if it hits the board. But same problem as described with Intuition. Opponent has more ways to answer it, you have to draw it, dead if loamed. That's what I meant it's too slow. Just the experience I had with Intuition.
I think a Trinisphere would be something in between. Good vs Omni or Storm etc.

[Lormador]

I threw together an initial list designed to go hard on blue, running Vendilion Clique, 2 Trops, Intuition, Tolaria West, the whole show really... and I'd say it's a bust. Even taking into account the reduced power level that an experimental list is going to have compared to something close to a GP top 8 list, it's not where it needs to be.

Vendilion Clique did turn out to be pretty nice though, it's a shame the manabase just won't support it. Again though, the value of incremental damage is minimal when we're swinging with a 20/20. Maybe I'll just spend more time watching Jarvis Yu's channel and try to get better with the pure RG version of the deck. I think what's going on right now is that Jarvis is able to very precisely place the 20/20 in whatever gap exists in the opponent's defenses. When I play, it's not as precise, I wind up just generally collecting value and only go for the kill as either desperation or to finish off a totally helpless opponent. This winds up getting me into troublesome situations that I actually should have avoided with better play, and these are situations that Engineered Explosives gets me out of: explaining why I love EE in this deck and seem to win with it quite often.

EDIT: I'm still on my "are there creatures that are good in this deck?" mindset, and I came across Thrun, the Last Troll. The sell: if you're losing against Miracles, with a Jace on the field and counters up the wazoo on the other side, he actually can get you out of that hole. He can outfight a Batterskull, and is phenomenally hard to kill (especially with Karakas). So whereas a card like Choke is more of a crapshoot that you have to set up and resolve by applying pressure and using various bait spells, this on the other hand does not need any setup whatsoever (apart from getting enough mana). Furthermore, it'll be a surprise:a surprising a skilled player is a great way to beat them. Has anyone else tested this out, or am I alone here?

[Crimhead]

You'll probably never going to cast Nether Void. Great card, I had two but indeed too slow in most cases.
I've cast in before. It's lock piece number 7 for me, so I don't need it to be fast with it. It's a nail in the coffin because Storm has almost zero chance to answer it (worlds harder for them than 3Ball).

The only reson I'm not running it lately is because I've cut black. I'd like to put it back in, but it's a lot of deck space if I'm sticking with EE...


I don't think it's the 3 mana that kills T West, it's the UU in the cost that must be paid at sorcery speed...

...I guess it's possible that Tolaria West is playable without Intuition, since it's the Intuition that I'm really against and not so much the tutor land. I suppose I'll test that out.

Tolaria West is independent of Intuition. I've run it with 0, 1, 2, or 3.
I'm currently running 3/3 Gamble/CR, and 2 T.West.

It doesn't really matter that it's slow. It's there for the grindier matches - it's good in all the matches where CR punts. It can can establish a Chasm lock when Stoneblade is countering your other tutors. It gives you a finisher vs Miracles or D&T through your Chalice. It finds cards in the long game after you Dredge it. Etc.

The only real drawback is the deck space needed for double Trop.


EDIT: I'm still on my "are there creatures that are good in this deck?" mindset, and I came across Thrun, the Last Troll.

I'm happy with Tracker, but I would prefer Prime Time over Thrun. I cost an extra :2:, but that should be okay in the matches where we might want Thrun. Also it can steal the occasional game vs Sneak Show.

[Lormador]

Yeah, Prime Time has a special place in my heart as a former 12 Post player. Actually, I bought my Tabernacle originally not out of a desire to play Lands, but as a sideboard card for my 12 Post deck. I then felt sad every time I saw it there, all lonely and unsupported by the rest of the deck, just a souped-up Rishadan Port really in a deck that's happy putting Needles on both Wasteland and Port.

Prime Time definitely has splash value against Sneaky, and works with the colors well, but I fear it's going to get Forced along with the rest of it. Perhaps, returning to your earlier point about T West, the best solution is actually just to run that tutor land to set up EE recursion more efficiently. That recursion has typically been what gives Lands board-control inevitability against other decks, and I suppose it's possible that the source of my troubles has been the fact that, lacking Intuition, setting up that pile is much harder to do. One must admit that the Intuition pile of Loam, EE, Academy Ruins puts a smile on one's face.

I'll also perhaps go on a tour of the win conditions that were retired before I even arrived at the deck to see if any of them hold water in the current meta. That's not to say I'm dissatisfied with Marit Lage, nothing could be further from the truth: but I find examination of win conditions to be educational (as well as a lot of fun). What's on the docket, Creeping Tar Pit (the only man land I'll test), Worm Harvest, and Mindslaver?

[Ingo]

Maybe I'll just spend more time watching Jarvis Yu's channel and try to get better with the pure RG version of the deck. I think what's going on right now is that Jarvis is able to very precisely place the 20/20 in whatever gap exists in the opponent's defenses. When I play, it's not as precise, I wind up just generally collecting value and only go for the kill as either desperation or to finish off a totally helpless opponent.

I don't think precisely timing the token is key, but rather the inevitability of creating the token over and over again.
Instead of setting up the perfect circumstances (full control) for the kill, try the recursiveness of Marit Lage as a way to add pressure to the board, draining answers until she finally connects.
Now that countertop's gone, this is quite effective against Miracles G1, as inevitability is no longer on their side.
It's also not that easy for Miracles to answer your first token, as they had few time to set up a Terminus, and don't have a Swords in the yard for Snapcaster yet.

[Lormador]

Yeah, a 20/20 factory is a beautiful thing when they can't interact with it.

Lately I've been taking a walk down memory lane and exploring ancient builds of the deck, you know: back when it used to sport 4 Manabond 4 Intuition and 38 lands. It's remarkably not bad! The pilots of yore really knew how to put on a smooth mana denial sleeper hold.

[OldSpellMaster]

Yeah, a 20/20 factory is a beautiful thing when they can't interact with it.

Lately I've been taking a walk down memory lane and exploring ancient builds of the deck, you know: back when it used to sport 4 Manabond 4 Intuition and 38 lands. It's remarkably not bad! The pilots of yore really knew how to put on a smooth mana denial sleeper hold.

Oh, please post one or two of these old Decklists. I'm very interested. Maye we all stick to much on the new things even the old ones would be still nice or nice again...

(back those days, I had only my own implementation of Lands without community-input. Found it great to draw 4 cards every turn, cast the one spell and put down 3 lands by having manabond and oath of scholars out. Attacking with manlands. Then countering the opponent with null brooch :-) )

[Crimhead]

Oh, please post one or two of these old Decklists. I'm very interested. Maye we all stick to much on the new things even the old ones would be still nice or nice again...

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/legacy-archives/179853-primer-lands

The original lists were running Gambles, Nantuko Monasteries, and Mulch (with 43 lands).

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/legacy-archives/184479-43-lands

I was in the middle of building the deck back in 2012 when DRS hit the scene. This caused Lands to drop Factories for the PF/Grove package. I was mortified! I wanted to play Lands, not spells.
:mad:

For a brief moment I was considering abandoning the deck. But it was still cooler than any other deck in any format (plus I had just bought a Tabby), so I went ahead. Glad I did.
:smile:

[Sparkii]

I have older decklist pictures but this is shortly after I started foiling a bit and probably the nicest looking photo/scan I have in the second era of lands.

https://i.imgur.com/FfBXBdW.jpg

[Wiktul]

Me and a friend of mnie are comnig to MKM Series Prague. Are we going to meet any of you guys around there somewhere? :)

[OldSpellMaster]

I have older decklist pictures but this is shortly after I started foiling a bit and probably the nicest looking photo/scan I have in the second era of lands.

https://i.imgur.com/FfBXBdW.jpg

What about pre-modern (especially pre-loam) lists?
I know it wasn't so good but anyway fun those days (Urza block). Had some great ideas (Mox Diamond, Manabond, Crop Rotation) good ideas (manlands, oath of scholars), interesting ideas (Null Brooch, The Abyss, Sacred Ground, Horn of Greed) and stupid ideas (Pyramids, Equinox) in it...

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Here is an old zvi article about turbolands from that era, pretty cool looking to me. Wasn't playing then so I'm not sure if that's what you referring to though.

https://www.wizards.com/sideboard/article.asp?x=sb20001110b

[Lormador]

The old lists certainly are charming, both for those of us who were actually playing the deck at that time and more recent converts to Marit Lage. They have a different flow to them, depending on the list of course, going really hard on the graveyard and more aggressively attacking mana than the combo/control hybrid most of us play today.

It's not necessarily purely as a joke or an exercise in historical curiosity, either. Stage/Depths is colorless and only takes a few slots, and it's pretty obvious what to take out for it if you want a quick "update" to an antique deck.

The main difference I've noticed probably stems from running 4 Manabond. That card is dirty!

[grmpytopdecker]

Tried out 2 Ramunap Excavator out of the sideboard (removed Choke and a 4th Sphere) against control decks last night at FNM. Was a kill-ASAP card for them. The really good Lands player at the store felt I should just play Crucible but it makes me wonder. It did allow me to discard lands to a Mox and then get the land back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ciubulu]

Tried out 2 Ramunap Excavator out of the sideboard (removed Choke and a 4th Sphere) against control decks last night at FNM. Was a kill-ASAP card for them. The really good Lands player at the store felt I should just play Crucible but it makes me wonder. It did allow me to discard lands to a Mox and then get the land back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree with your friends: if you want a non-loam card to recur your lands from the graveyard crucible is your card. It does the same thing and it's harder to deal with.

[GoblinZ]

Here is an old zvi article about turbolands from that era, pretty cool looking to me. Wasn't playing then so I'm not sure if that's what you referring to though.

https://www.wizards.com/sideboard/article.asp?x=sb20001110b

believe me, I remembered some years ago(2010 or 2011), there was a thread on source or an article somewhere talking about legacy turbolands using horn of greed. Thus, one of my friends bulit that deck for fun and was crashed by my zoo deck for whole night, then I never saw him playing it again.

[GoblinZ]

Has anybody tired REB/pyroblast in the sideboard?

[OldSpellMaster]

believe me, I remembered some years ago(2010 or 2011), there was a thread on source or an article somewhere talking about legacy turbolands using horn of greed. Thus, one of my friends bulit that deck for fun and was crashed by my zoo deck for whole night, then I never saw him playing it again.

So, I think I've learned a few things.
First, TurboLands is NOT Lands. It only tried to get fast mana in form if lands and didn't try to do much with abilitylands except for Wasteland and Chasm or Glaciers.
The first real Lands decks were Eternal Garden or 4x-lands.
Second: Lands needs a landrecursion from grave so CoW or Loam. All solutions before that are not really good. If you draw the lands fast and bring them into play doesn't help if your keycard hits the grave.

I still like the idea of having almost lands only. So I don't like we went down from about 42 to 36 lands.
We could rise up that number by changing Gambles to TW and PF to Barbarian Rings and Groves to Tropical Islands ;-)

And if we look back and try older cards again, I think it would be Smoke Stack, Endnaring Bridge, Worm Harvest, some manlands and Intuition ;-)
OR things nobody used before

[Crimhead]

Speaking of Tolaria West - 2 copies in the second place list from MKM Prauge.

Also a 2/2 GQ/Port split, which I dislike in theory. But I'm glad to see T.West getting results. I seem to do well with it, but I've become almost embarrassed to admit it lately.
:wink:

Congratulations to Steffen Möller!

http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-prague-2017-legacy/



STEFFEN MÖLLER – LANDS

MAIN DECK:

4 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
3 Gamble
3 Punishing Fire
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Academy Ruins
3 Maze of Ith
2 Dark Depths
3 Thespian Stage
4 Wasteland
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Rishadan Port
2 Tolaria West
1 Sheltered Thicket
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Foothills
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
2 Taiga
1 Forest

SIDEBOARD:

3 Krosan Grip
1 Song of the Dryads
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Sphere of Resistance

My maindeck is similar:

+1 BRing / -1 EE
+2 Vortex / -1 PF
+2 Port / -1 GQ
-1 Taiga
-1 Crop Rotation

[Crimhead]

Has anybody tired REB/pyroblast in the sideboard?

I have not. But I'm inclined to think Warping Wail is better in our combo matches, which is where we might want counter-magic.

[GoblinZ]

http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-prague-2017-legacy/




wow！I am seriously considering splashing blue recently for I failed to get drop of honey in a reasonable price on ebay, but there are a few match-up I really dislike splashing, such as ur burn or burn.

[Crimhead]

but there are a few match-up I really dislike splashing, such as ur burn or burn.
T.West finds Zorb. It's a bit slow, but on the other hand resolving a tutor vs UR (vs having it countered) can make or break a game.

I'm not saying you should prefer a blue splash in these matches. Just that there is an upside.

[Wiktul]

Speaking of Tolaria West - 2 copies in the second place list from MKM Prauge.

http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-prague-2017-legacy/

And that's precisely where I'm coming back from, so I can give you a short report :)

There was 300 players in the main event (day 2 me and a friend of mine - both playing RG - didn't manage to register for a trial due to lack of space with modern main event being played the same day). Over a 100 of delvers in various forms (46 grixis), about 20 death&taxes, the same for elves and sneak&show, 30 deathblades, over 20 Leovold BUGs, something like 17 miracles, 10 BR reanimators, 7 lands (including us), 8 food chains, 8 eldrazi, over 40 different builds.

Round 1:

I sat in front of the guy who reached semi-finals in Vintage day before.
G1: I kept a solid hand with some acceleration in form of Exploration, both combo pieces. I was about to kill him turn 4, when the Food Chain landed on the table and ininte Balista showed up right after that. The odds of getting this particular matchup with 300 players where like 2,7%, but I tried not to start bitching about it too much.

G2: I started with combo available turn 3 and Krosan Grip in hand. Mox was Forced, Krosan Grip was discarded with Collective Brutality turn 2 -_- Food chain t3, I still had a combo available turn 4 and kill turn 5, yet the wheel stared spinnig again. I Rotated for Chasm in responce to Ballista, but my Marit faced two unkillable Griffins in the air. I couldn't get second Grip before Chasm finished me off.

Round 2:

We both had to mulligan, I kept a risky hand without combo acces, just with Molten Vortex and 5 lands, hoping for delver / drs deck. Opponent mulled to 5, kept, showed me basic and drs. I killed 3 shamans, 2 strixes, destroyed his basic with quarter, returned it with Petrified Field and destroyed second. That was defintely too much for him.

G2: He goes wide, I'm playing patiently, knowing he has Swords (Confidant draw) and that he knows what I do have in hand (he took out Gamble instead of Rotation - big mistake). I forced him to feed me with my own Tracker, burned his Strix, allowing to Extract PFire and rotated for missing Depths when he was one mana short for Edict thabks to Rishadan.

Round 3:

G1: I kept a hand with combo, exploration, grove, pfire, gamble and loam. I saw him fetching for Island, playing Ponder, hoping for Delver to come. What came instead was two Lotus Petals and Sneak Attack with both Emrakul and Griselbrand.

G2: Started with Sphere, mox, combo and Primevail Titan in hand. Taxation did nothing due to four Petals. Show&Tell played, if he will show Emrakul or Griselbrand I'll still have him with Titan supported by Karakas, Maze and combo next turn. Obviously, it had to be Sneak Attack. Emrakul + Griselbrand = game over.

Round 4

I knew... no, I had to believe that it can't get any worse from there.
G1: I've sat against BUG manabase, killed one DRS, yet after that drew horribly and couldn't get out from 2 strixes, 2 shamans and FoWs. I was quite confident though sideboarding for g2, knowing I can manage 2-1 win.

G2: Lot's of patience playing against his DRS, Relic of Progenitus etc. I made him use his Edict when I wanted it, cheated his FoW with Petrified field and had combo ready again for next turn kill. Then second Food Chain showed up. I guess the odds where like 1,5% now.

Round 5

Demoralized as I was, I simply wanted to play as much as I can endure.
G1: Another solid hand with fast combo available and an out for the unknown in form of Gamble. Opponent on play. Badlands - Ritual - Griselbrand - petals in play - 3 Chancellors in grave -Unmask to me. I didn't want him to know what he's playing against, so I simply surrendered and started to sideboard.

G2: No hate in hand, yet super fast combo with Mox and Exploration, Maze and Loam. His grave Titan had to face Marit, I didn't blocked the Titan not to allow him to bring it back and make even more zombies. Marit for token. Maze for Titan, I start digging with Loam for Tabernacle. He playes Griselbrand and Chancellor in one turn with Spirit Guide and Petals, I try some gimmicks with Thricket and double Loam, but still can't find Tabernacle, Maze, Glacial nor event second Maze. He addmits he comboed this good for the first time today.

Round 6

I face some Stonebladle with a smile, we both up to only fun now. I control him as I like, taxing with ports and Tabernacle. He draw 4 Wastelands in a row, I exchanded 2 for my own, destroyed third with Stage copying it while I tapped it with Port, wastes 4th when he tried to kill second Stage which I turned into a forest ( he had to call a judge cause he couldn't believe the interaction). Everything was fine except that I didn't drew a single Loam for 20 minutes. One Marit eat swords, his Nemezis finally did the job.

G2: Tabernacle, stage, fetch, Mox, Loam, Tracker and Grip. The only thing I need for safety is one land. He plays needle into Thespian, I know I have time, he plays around Tabernacle, also short in mana and cheap creatures. For next 20 minutes I can't draw nor dredge a single land.

Round 7

There is no air in the air, no brain in the skull, no point in life.
G1: I kept whatever hand, waiting for my friend who goes 4-2-2 if he will play on. I face UW controll with nothing but Jaces, Snapcaster, Mystics and counterspells. After 60 minutes of play I've killed 3 Jaces, 3 snapcasters and 2 mystics, made 5 tokens, had around 14 lands with Manabond, 3 Pfires in grave, 2 loams in hand and 60 life. He had single Nemezis with Jitta and Butterskull, what resulted in a draw after last turn of termination, when we where unable to even read the cards.

Enough was enough. My friend dopped with wins against Grixis, Elves, and some kind of RUB controll deck, drew with 4c Delver (also a guy from my venue) and Death&Taxes, lost to BG Depths, Jund and BUG leovold. Another Polish player from our venue, Tomasz Szadziul, made 5th place with his elves, losing in quaterfinals 1-2 against the winner. Congrats to the 2nd, RUG lands build - seems he did get the right matchups he should ;)

[jarvisyu]

So, I think I've learned a few things.
First, TurboLands is NOT Lands. It only tried to get fast mana in form if lands and didn't try to do much with abilitylands except for Wasteland and Chasm or Glaciers.
The first real Lands decks were Eternal Garden or 4x-lands.
Second: Lands needs a landrecursion from grave so CoW or Loam. All solutions before that are not really good. If you draw the lands fast and bring them into play doesn't help if your keycard hits the grave.

I still like the idea of having almost lands only. So I don't like we went down from about 42 to 36 lands.
We could rise up that number by changing Gambles to TW and PF to Barbarian Rings and Groves to Tropical Islands ;-)

And if we look back and try older cards again, I think it would be Smoke Stack, Endnaring Bridge, Worm Harvest, some manlands and Intuition ;-)
OR things nobody used before

TurboLand was a deck developed by Zvi (the mad scientist) Mowshowitz.
He won a Grand Prix in 2003 with it:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=sideboard/gpno03/finals

[OldSpellMaster]

TurboLand was a deck developed by Zvi (the mad scientist) Mowshowitz.
He won a Grand Prix in 2003 with it:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=sideboard/gpno03/finals

True. But I was just saying that TurboLands is/was not Lands and that TurboLands today will probably not work anymore.

[jarvisyu]

True. But I was just saying that TurboLands is/was not Lands and that TurboLands today will probably not work anymore.

100% agree with you. Just thought it might be interesting for other people to know what TurboLand actually is/was.

[Darkgobs]

wow！I am seriously considering splashing blue recently for I failed to get drop of honey in a reasonable price on ebay, but there are a few match-up I really dislike splashing, such as ur burn or burn.Speaking of Drop of Honey, how mandatory is it to have it in the board at the moment ? Is the "standard" RG list not viable without it atm? Do we really have to have options as EE, or Burning wish for devastating dreams like David Long, to get trough the metagame? Can't we rely on Tabernacle to do the job anymore?

And if such an anti-creature strategy is really needed, considering the fact that I really cannot buy one or two Drop atm, what replacement cards could do the job?

I don't have the possibility to play since 5 month, so I couldn't test anything by myself. So thanks in advance guys!

Envoyé de mon Blackphone 2 en utilisant Tapatalk

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Drop is not a requirement at all and you can still just play the streamlined combo Lands gameplan with or without it. There aren't a lot of direct replacements for drop besides porphory nodes but that's a rough splash unless you are using the white for something else worthwhile. Other powerful sideboard cards for removal are molten vortex, kozilek's return, heaven//earth, or going a totally different route like David Long's burning wish list which can devastating dreams and tabernacle people to oblivion.

[GoblinZ]

Jody Keith in his video said drop is the best removal in this deck atm and playing two copies is the right call. I believe what he said is true if we play a streamlined combo-control RG lands without splashing other colors. Drop is the best card to deal with those problematic creatures such as TNN or Leovold and since drop is slow I wanna see one in my opening hand in some match-up, therefore only one copy seems not enough.

But more often, I think a direct sweeper could be far better than Drop. Also drop could be decayed. I watched some renowned players played lands and got crushed by BUG variants just because drop did nothing before being decayed.

Playing RG lands without drop is ok as long as your meta is flooded with delver decks, cause u don't need it at all in these match-up. But I presume the meta may shift a bit and other creature-based fair decks are on the rising(you can see there are a lot of leovold decks on mo and blade variant also doing well in Kyoto side event and MKM), I would personally take u splashing for more powerful removals to grind out all of them.

[kravkenov]

Speaking of Drop of Honey, how mandatory is it to have it in the board at the moment ? Is the "standard" RG list not viable without it atm?

I would say Drop is a card you need only if you absolutely want to stay in a straight combo and don't want either to splash blue (1 Tropical, 1 Academy Ruins, 1-2 Explosives) nor being a bit less combo and a bit more control with the Burning Wish package. So clearly there is 2 alternatives. First is to play Explosives, second is to play Burning Wish. You could also play white for Nodes, but as said before it's a poor card unless you also play white for something else and it still a poor card.

[Crimhead]

Nodes is a poor card even if you are already splashing white. It's still off coloured mana and will create awkward openers that Drop will not.

[StefN]

Hello guys. I'm the one who made 2nd place in Prague ;).
Maybe some thoughts about the blue splash. I play this deck for about 2 years now and I testet every splash so far. I think all strategies are somehow viable. Black for Decay/discard or just stay R/G for Drop or Wish. My main problem with all these strategies was always that you need them in your opener or you need to draw them naturally wich is almost impossible as soon as we start dredging. This is also my biggest problem with drop. 2 copies in the sb, how big is the chance to have it in your opener when you sb it? In my opinion the chance is is just too low.
What I like about the blue splash is that you just can dredge into it. From a specific point in the game Tolaria West is a Demonis Tutor that can't be countered and E.Explosives is a main out for almost everything (Leovolt, Nemesis and so on. I destroyed several Vials, Needles and Deathrites this weekend). Also Crucible is a nice Loam alternative as soon as you play blue especially because there are so many Surgicals around atm.
I would not say that blue is the way to go. I mean its still the R/G list just with a little blue toolbox. For me the list performed very well this weekend and maybe its just personal preferences that I choosed the RGu list. What I found out the last months is, that I tend to grind the player more often out or more often go into the mid or late game then just try to make the token as fast as possible. This showed me that I need a list that performs better in the lategame or that has more options.
My 5cents and sry for my bad english ;D

[GoblinZ]

My main problem with all these strategies was always that you need them in your opener or you need to draw them naturally wich is almost impossible as soon as we start dredging.

Congratulations first! This is the very thing I worried about drop of honey, ee+ruins is more devastating.

I have a few questions about your list, I will sum them up as below:

1. Why play port and quarter a 2/2 split?
2. Do you consider playing a babarian ring for the sanctum prelate, since prelate on two and revoker on ee could be a problem.
3. Have you tested or played any games against ur delver? Do you think u splashing could make this mu a little harder?
4. Jody Keith and Jarvis Yu both play multiple cycle lands right now to dodge surgical, Jody also recommend playing crucible recently. I notice you only play one cycle land, do you think one crucible plus one cycle land is quite enough against surgical?

A lot of questions, also looking fowards to your report, thank you very much!

[Wiktul]

Could you please decribe what kind of matchups did you get through those 9 rounds? :) I wander what did you hit that I have missed so badly :P

[StefN]

@GoblinZ
1. When the 4 GQ build became a thing I tried it out and I really liked it, but it has some minor problems. As soon as we dont have loam or exploration or our opponent plays fetchlands to avoid to be wasted it sucks to only play „strip“ effects. That’s why I added ports again. The 2/2 split is kinda a space issue.
2. The scenario that you describe ist the worst case senario and yes BR would help there. My problem with BR is that in every other scenario its just a worse Land then every other Land I could put in that slot. Most of the time it only produces 1R for 1 damage and in the RGu list its also again a space issue.
3. My main strategy against UR Delver is always the token as fast as possible or postboard a sphere effect + mana denial as alternative. Maybe this version is slightly slower in making the token wich makes it a little bit harder, not sure.
4. When everyone started to play surgicals in their sideboard I immediately added an additional copy of Tranquill Thicket in my MD because in theory it should solve this problem. While testing it always happend to me that either I didnt had the thicket effect when I got extracted or I always kept the mana and thicket open but I didnt needed it the whole game. This wasnt as satisfied as it should be. The problem with thicket is also that it only fixes green mana. I like to play the Sheltered thicket because it is fetchable and fixes mana. On the other hand, the Crucible is somehow also a thicket effect. Thicket helps us to negate 1 surgical to continue dredging with loam. Crucible somehow does the same because we still have access to our graveyard and our opponent who plays the surgical hast to decide of wich card he shuts us off.

Hope that answered your quetions ;). About a report. Normally I wasn’t planing to write something because i didn’t take any notes, but I can try to write something quick so everyone can see my matchups and so on.

MKM prague 2017 – First off all, it was a great weekend. A lot of people, the weather was melting us and 290 people showed up for the legacy main event. Before the tournament I wasn’t sure if I really want to play Lands because the last 4 tournament (since the top ban) I was paired about 50-60% against Combodecks wich sucks ;). At Saturday at the trial I tried a Show and Tell / Academy Rector list wich wasn’t that amazing and I only went 4-3 ^^. The upside of that day was that I found out that not that many people played combo as I expected before. So I decided to play Lands on the Sunday Main event.

1 Round: B/R Reanimator 2-1
Game 1 my opponent showed me a Chancellor of the Annex and played ritual/entomb/exhume first round to draw a bunch of cards to play another creature. GG. I thought what a nice start and doubt for a short moment why I picked up Lands for this tournament.
Game 2 I resolve a fast sphere + 3 turn Marit Lage. He has Sneak Attack the turn before I can attack and brings Griselbrand into play to draw some cards but has no mana left and doesn’t find anything usefull.
Game 3 same scenario. Early sphere + fast token is too much for his Griselbrand.

2 Round: Elves 2-0
In both games I manage to make a token turn 3 + to play punishing fire a turn before on his first turn play.

3 Round: Dont remember what I played against but i won ;).

4 Round: Grixis Delver 2-1
Hard back and forth but Lands does what it should do so I win.

5 Round: Death and Taxes 2-0
In both games he plays a vial first and second turn wich immediately gets destroyed by an explosives both times. He never really comes back in the game after that.

6 Round: GrixisDelver 2-1
Same as round 4. Not a free win but in the end the token wins the game.

7 Round: DragonStompy 2-1
Game 1 he resolves Magus of the moon and thrinisphere. I have both combo pieces and two other land in play. I manage to play Punishing Fire eot to make a token in my turn. Luckily he has not Bridge in the following turn so I win g1.
Game 2 he resolves 2 Blood Moon, 1 Bridge and a lot of red creatures. I get totally wrecked.
Game 3 he starts with a first turn Magus. I manage to resolve 2 sphere effect wich slows him down. When I finally find the punishing fire for the Magus I could start to get rid of his lands so he was completely in prison mode.

8 Round: iD

9 Round: iD

¼ final: EsperBlade 2-0
Game 1 the loam engine + tabernacle and strip effects wins the game before I make the token.
Game 2 was a close one. He made a few mistakes (didn’t pay for his tombstalker/tabernacle, and mistaped his mana in the final turn) wich won me the game. Otherwise we would had played the 3 game but nevertheless I was happy to win this.
http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/2017/07/31/quarterfinal-steffen-moller-vs-maurice-lenz/

½ final: GrixisDelver 2-0
In both Games the deck does exactly what it should do. Game 1 Loam engine and game 2 sphere + tracker.

Final: 1-2 MentorMiracles
We had no timelimit and the whole game took over 90 minutes. I manage to win the first game but only because he missed his tabernacle trigger once and because the didn’t find a spell in 4 card in the final turn to pump his Mentor for lethal.
2 and 3 Games he just buries me under cardadvantage. He always has Jace and I couldnt handle him. GG ;)
http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/2017/07/31/final-steffen-moller-vs-johannes-gutbrod/

About my SB. Most of the time I boarded the Tracker for Gamble and Sphere for single cards like Karakas, Bojuka Bog, 1 Wasteland or took out Maze, Punighing Fire if not needed in the matchup.

## For those of you who want more information about the tournament ##
http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-overview-mkm-series-prague-2017/#legacy

[Crimhead]

Could you please decribe what kind of matchups did you get through those 9 rounds? :) I wander what did you hit that I have missed so badly :P
I saw your report, my condolences on a horrible run of misfortune. It looked like a juice day 2 for Lands if you could catch a break.


From a specific point in the game Tolaria West is a Demonis Tutor that can't be countered and E.Explosives is a main out for almost everything (Leovolt, Nemesis and so on. I destroyed several Vials, Needles and Deathrites this weekend). Also Crucible is a nice Loam alternative as soon as you play blue especially because there are so many Surgicals around atm...

...What I found out the last months is, that I tend to grind the player more often out or more often go into the mid or late game then just try to make the token as fast as possible. This showed me that I need a list that performs better in the lategame or that has more options.

A man after my own heart.

I've been on Lands since January 2013 (usually running blue in some capacity). I've always though T.West is an all-star, and I've been waiting 3.5 years to see a T.West list place in a major event. Thank you!

:smile: :smile: :smile:

[Sparkii]

Blue isn't dead yet. Rep blue for life!

[Darkgobs]

@StefaN:
GG to you, and thank you really much for your report and explanations. It is nice and really useful that you came here and took some time to discuss with us!

@ you all guys:
Thanks guys for the answer about Drop. I will probably give a shot at both the burning list and the RGu list...and if really needed, I will try to convince my GF that we don't need those 500$ and get thoses 2 Drops! ...

Envoyé de mon Blackphone 2 en utilisant Tapatalk

[Lormador]

I play Crucible too, and it does a pretty good Loam impression. It helps against Extractions, obviously, and bringing it back with Academy Ruins brings inevitability against Miracles.

In practice, though, that inevitability tends to not happen because they have to many counterspells and extrations. 2+ Surgicals, and each one gets cast twice, can take out Loam, Crucible, Engineered Explosives, and still have an extra effect to spare for Stage perhaps. It's a tough matchup and I'm working on a solution.

Of course the old solution was Chalice @ 1, Boseiju, and perhaps Boil. I don't know how I feel about expensive walkers... since part of the problem is getting key spells countered.

[GoblinZ]

@StefN

thank you for your reply, nice report to read, beating dragon stompy is so cool:wink:

[scapiander]

any particular cards you guys recommend to improve the Maverick matchup? it's touch and technical, but I could use an edge.

[Sansian]

It's a rough recommendation these days, but Drop of Honey is pretty alright. Remembering that they can combo off your Depths at instant speed is a mistake that you should only make once. Protecting your Punishing Fires can make a huge difference. Maybe Sejiri Steppe to take a page from Turbo Depths as a way to Counter Swords? If you're really into beating Maverick try adding Cursed Totem to your board...

[Lichking616]

any particular cards you guys recommend to improve the Maverick matchup? it's touch and technical, but I could use an edge.

Engineered Explosives


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lichking616]

Hello guys. I'm the one who made 2nd place in Prague ;).
Maybe some thoughts about the blue splash. I play this deck for about 2 years now and I testet every splash so far. I think all strategies are somehow viable. Black for Decay/discard or just stay R/G for Drop or Wish. My main problem with all these strategies was always that you need them in your opener or you need to draw them naturally wich is almost impossible as soon as we start dredging. This is also my biggest problem with drop. 2 copies in the sb, how big is the chance to have it in your opener when you sb it? In my opinion the chance is is just too low.
What I like about the blue splash is that you just can dredge into it. From a specific point in the game Tolaria West is a Demonis Tutor that can't be countered and E.Explosives is a main out for almost everything (Leovolt, Nemesis and so on. I destroyed several Vials, Needles and Deathrites this weekend). Also Crucible is a nice Loam alternative as soon as you play blue especially because there are so many Surgicals around atm.
I would not say that blue is the way to go. I mean its still the R/G list just with a little blue toolbox. For me the list performed very well this weekend and maybe its just personal preferences that I choosed the RGu list. What I found out the last months is, that I tend to grind the player more often out or more often go into the mid or late game then just try to make the token as fast as possible. This showed me that I need a list that performs better in the lategame or that has more options.
My 5cents and sry for my bad english ;D

Are you having problems drawing the combo on line with the 61-card maindeck?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Crimhead]

Are you having problems drawing the combo on line with the 61-card maindeck?

I haven't run 60 cards in Lands for years. 61 cards does not significantly impact the odds of drawing into anything important, but it does provide a more versatile tool box. 61 is common with this deck.

[Ascension1223]

I don't see any notes on the match up against 12 post. Anyone able to weigh in with sideboard choices or goals?

I've lost several matches to it. Even with Wasteland and GQ (x4) they just seem to be able to power out mana producing artifacts and critters too fast for me.

[Tekko]

Horizon Canopy vs Sheltered Thicket vs Tranquil Thicket?

I'm assuming you want Sheltered over the other two if you're playing Molten Vortex?
I'm assuming you want Horizon over the other two if you're heavy into Manabond?

Any advice on card choice and count and under what circumstances?

[Ascension1223]

Horizon Canopy vs Sheltered Thicket vs Tranquil Thicket?

I'm assuming you want Sheltered over the other two if you're playing Molten Vortex?
I'm assuming you want Horizon over the other two if you're heavy into Manabond?

Any advice on card choice and count and under what circumstances?

I use all three for different things. Tranquil to protect life from the loam. Horizon as a hedge land source of I think I might get a lucky crop rotate vs having to protect life, and Sheltered is often my fetch target when I'm in a slow game early, or a decent cycler late.

[djxstream]

Had a hand vs Storm G2 on the draw (yes i won g1 with a timely crop rotation/bog vs past in flames) that i eventually lost with, but curious if it was the right keep.

1 fetch
1 taiga
2 mox diamonds
1 wasteland
1 ghost quarter
1 tireless tracker


in g1 my opponent hit his own life total hard between a lot of probes and fetches. so my mind set was, I can apply very fast pressure with this hand as well as wasteland a dual on my t2.

He leads with delta and does nothing. I put in play the wasteland, both moxes (discarding taiga/gq) and tracker.

Next turn he goes volc/brainstorm, i waste the volc on my turn, play the fetch land, pop a clue and attack. another pair of turns later he goes down to 7 life and i have a 5 power tracker. spend my mana to pop two clues, and attack for 7. chain of vapor. he goes one more turn with a cantrip, I recast tracker, then he wins.

So the question is, would you keep that hand?

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I'm personally throwing that one back for better interaction every time. T1 tracker is definitely a clock but it's not a great one as you saw and it pigeonholes you into hoping they have a draw that fails because of a single wasteland. I'd rather just try to mulligan into a mana rock or a quicker kill, especially on the first mulligan.

What all did you board in?

[rlesko]

Had a hand vs Storm G2 on the draw (yes i won g1 with a timely crop rotation/bog vs past in flames) that i eventually lost with, but curious if it was the right keep.

1 fetch
1 taiga
2 mox diamonds
1 wasteland
1 ghost quarter
1 tireless tracker

So the question is, would you keep that hand?

Not a chance. You have no interaction at all. Aside from that, you get absolutely crushed by probe / therapy, or a decay. I would keep a fast tracker on a 5 card hand or something, but not a 7.

[djxstream]

I'm personally throwing that one back for better interaction every time. T1 tracker is definitely a clock but it's not a great one as you saw and it pigeonholes you into hoping they have a draw that fails because of a single wasteland. I'd rather just try to mulligan into a mana rock or a quicker kill, especially on the first mulligan.

What all did you board in?

I play a black splash. 4 thoughtseizes, 2 collective brutality, 1 chalice and 3 trackers come in for mazes, karakas, decays, vortex, chasm

for the record, g3 was won on the back of a t1 thoughtseize followed by a chalice for zero.

[rlesko]

I play a black splash. 4 thoughtseizes, 2 collective brutality, 1 chalice and 3 trackers come in for mazes, karakas, decays, vortex, chasm

for the record, g3 was won on the back of a t1 thoughtseize followed by a chalice for zero.

I'm really interested in the black splash, got a list? How many fetches / bayous?

[djxstream]

I'm really interested in the black splash, got a list? How many fetches / bayous?

https://deckstats.net/decks/26345/687847-rgb-lands?lng=en

The tranquil thicket is now a sheltered thicket, but otherwise unchanged.

[rlesko]

Primary reason for running Thoughtseize over Duress? Do you bring in Thoughtseize against fair decks to discard hate cards?

[djxstream]

Primary reason for running Thoughtseize over Duress? Do you bring in Thoughtseize against fair decks to discard hate cards?

I'll take the life loss over a restriction. But no i typically dont bring them in vs fair matchups.

[mechint]

Seize discard emrakul/griselbrand against show .

[Wiktul]

There are 5 videos at LibraryAtThePendrellVale of Tom Kellock playing RG against MonoR Sneak, Miracles, Reanimator Depths, Goblins and Elves. Playing suprisingly badly, I must add...

[Dice_Box]

Yea people, we are back.

[Lichking616]

RUG or RG? pros and cons?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Crimhead]

RUG or RG? pros and cons?

It boils down to a combination of meta-call + personal comfort/style.

Nobody is really playing Intuition anymore, so RUG is typically a single Trop for Academy Ruins (to support EE). Worth noting a winning list at MKM Prague was running a second Trop and 2 Tolaria Wests.

EE gives us a lot of resilience to almost any problematic permanents (cheated-in fatties not withstanding). Against fair decks, this can easily kill anything with cc 3 or lower, often with card advantage. It comes back from the yard and DRS cannot eat it. You won't need other sweepers in the board.

The downside is deck space. Since EE gives inevitability and a better "long game", you will generally cut back on speed - eg, extra copies of Stage and Depths, plus maybe Manabond. You probably also drop to 3 PF, but the big effect is slowing down the combo.

Tolaria West will slow you down even more (both from being a 3cc tutor and by taking even more deck space for a second Trop). It's not very popular these days, but it's a total bomb vs fair decks that run counter-magic and also put up a lot of pressure. T.West lets you (without risk of counter-spells) find Chasm, EE, combo pieces, Zorb, or any utility land in your toolbox. It can also recur from the yard, which your other tutors cannot do, making it the ideal late-game tutor.

It's basically an all-star in any match where Crop Rotation loses value. Again, not a very popular card, but I personally find it terrific.

TLDR - A blue splash for EE is better in a grindy match but worse when you want to race. Throwing in T.West further exaggerates the difference.

Also worth noting there is a RBG version with maindeck ADs and Thoughtseize in the SB. I've never played that build so I won't comment much on the pros & cons. But if I understand the deck is a little worse at doing what Lands does (aka, beating up on fair decks), but is better vs combo.

[grmpytopdecker]

There are 5 videos at LibraryAtThePendrellVale of Tom Kellock playing RG against MonoR Sneak, Miracles, Reanimator Depths, Goblins and Elves. Playing suprisingly badly, I must add...

He has had a lot of success playing Lands at larger events, so I wonder what is up with his play in those videos. Maybe up too late playing after a long day at work?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jarvisyu]

He has had a lot of success playing Lands at larger events, so I wonder what is up with his play in those videos. Maybe up too late playing after a long day at work?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

From personal experience, streaming or recording a video cuts your playskill by about 50%.

[Ascension1223]

It boils down to a combination of meta-call + personal comfort/style.

Nobody is really playing Intuition anymore, so RUG is typically a single Trop for Academy Ruins (to support EE). Worth noting a winning list at MKM Prague was running a second Trop and 2 Tolaria Wests.

EE gives us a lot of resilience to almost any problematic permanents (cheated-in fatties not withstanding). Against fair decks, this can easily kill anything with cc 3 or lower, often with card advantage. It comes back from the yard and DRS cannot eat it. You won't need other sweepers in the board.

The downside is deck space. Since EE gives inevitability and a better "long game", you will generally cut back on speed - eg, extra copies of Stage and Depths, plus maybe Manabond. You probably also drop to 3 PF, but the big effect is slowing down the combo.

Tolaria West will slow you down even more (both from being a 3cc tutor and by taking even more deck space for a second Trop). It's not very popular these days, but it's a total bomb vs fair decks that run counter-magic and also put up a lot of pressure. T.West lets you (without risk of counter-spells) find Chasm, EE, combo pieces, Zorb, or any utility land in your toolbox. It can also recur from the yard, which your other tutors cannot do, making it the ideal late-game tutor.

It's basically an all-star in any match where Crop Rotation loses value. Again, not a very popular card, but I personally find it terrific.

TLDR - A blue splash for EE is better in a grindy match but worse when you want to race. Throwing in T.West further exaggerates the difference.

Also worth noting there is a RBG version with maindeck ADs and Thoughtseize in the SB. I've never played that build so I won't comment much on the pros & cons. But if I understand the deck is a little worse at doing what Lands does (aka, beating up on fair decks), but is better vs combo.

Has anyone tried putting the RUG tools in the sideboard? Transforming the deck in game 2/3?

[Darkgobs]

1)
It boils down to a combination of meta-call + personal comfort/style.

Nobody is really playing Intuition anymore, so RUG is typically a single Trop for Academy Ruins (to support EE). Worth noting a winning list at MKM Prague was running a second Trop and 2 Tolaria Wests.

EE gives us a lot of resilience to almost any problematic permanents (cheated-in fatties not withstanding). Against fair decks, this can easily kill anything with cc 3 or lower, often with card advantage. It comes back from the yard and DRS cannot eat it. You won't need other sweepers in the board.

The downside is deck space. Since EE gives inevitability and a better "long game", you will generally cut back on speed - eg, extra copies of Stage and Depths, plus maybe Manabond. You probably also drop to 3 PF, but the big effect is slowing down the combo.

Tolaria West will slow you down even more (both from being a 3cc tutor and by taking even more deck space for a second Trop). It's not very popular these days, but it's a total bomb vs fair decks that run counter-magic and also put up a lot of pressure. T.West lets you (without risk of counter-spells) find Chasm, EE, combo pieces, Zorb, or any utility land in your toolbox. It can also recur from the yard, which your other tutors cannot do, making it the ideal late-game tutor.

It's basically an all-star in any match where Crop Rotation loses value. Again, not a very popular card, but I personally find it terrific.

TLDR - A blue splash for EE is better in a grindy match but worse when you want to race. Throwing in T.West further exaggerates the difference.

Also worth noting there is a RBG version with maindeck ADs and Thoughtseize in the SB. I've never played that build so I won't comment much on the pros & cons. But if I understand the deck is a little worse at doing what Lands does (aka, beating up on fair decks), but is better vs combo.It is quite obvious, but I'll add - as it already has been pointed out here before - that the RUG version (RGu may be more accurate imho) is a bit more exposed to grave-hate, since the EE / Academy ruins engine is particularly useful thanks to its resilience through the graveyard.


2)
Also, on an other note, I also am a fierce defensor of the 61-cards list in toolbox-heavy decks like Land (and especially the RGu version).
And to be honest, I don't understand why Land players - including all the recognized ones, such as you, Jarvis Yu ;-) and the others - don't go up to 61, since there is statistically no real downside (as already pointed out on this forum in the past) doing so. I really do think it just comes to MtG players being a bit superstitious and not willing to consider that the "60-card rule" has to be contextualised.

[rlesko]

1)It is quite obvious, but I'll add - as it already has been pointed out here before - that the RUG version (RGu may be more accurate imho) is a bit more exposed to grave-hate, since the EE / Academy ruins engine is particularly useful thanks to its resilience through the graveyard.


I actually wholeheartedly disagree with this statement. I think the rug version is better vs grave hate than straight RG. Your artifacts can't be touched by deathrite. You have access to Crucible if your loams get eaten / extracted and you have access to EE when your pfires get eaten / extracted. No one is playing RIP anymore and even if they were, EE destroys that (you do lose EE in the process though).

[jarvisyu]

1)It is quite obvious, but I'll add - as it already has been pointed out here before - that the RUG version (RGu may be more accurate imho) is a bit more exposed to grave-hate, since the EE / Academy ruins engine is particularly useful thanks to its resilience through the graveyard.


2)
Also, on an other note, I also am a fierce defensor of the 61-cards list in toolbox-heavy decks like Land (and especially the RGu version).
And to be honest, I don't understand why Land players - including all the recognized ones, such as you, Jarvis Yu ;-) and the others - don't go up to 61, since there is statistically no real downside (as already pointed out on this forum in the past) doing so. I really do think it just comes to MtG players being a bit superstitious and not willing to consider that the "60-card rule" has to be contextualised.

Envoyé de mon Blackphone 2 en utilisant Tapatalk

I'm a statistician, so I completely disagree. I don't want to argue about it though, because I feel like everytime I do, people feel like I am attacking them.

[jarvisyu]

tl;dr version: Especially in RG, you want an accelerant in your opening hand. I essentially mulligan almost every 7 that doesn't contain one.

Second, I don't want to tell people how to build their decks unless they ask me to. I feel strongly that Magic is a game about enjoying yourself, so I don't argue about things like these cause I don't want to make people feel like they're being attacked.

[Darkgobs]

I actually wholeheartedly disagree with this statement. I think the rug version is better vs grave hate than straight RG. Your artifacts can't be touched by deathrite. You have access to Crucible if your loams get eaten / extracted and you have access to EE when your pfires get eaten / extracted. No one is playing RIP anymore and even if they were, EE destroys that (you do lose EE in the process though).Fair enough, what you says makes sense indeed. Maybe I should have been more clear about what I meant:
My point was rather that since our opponent will board-in the maximum grave-hate he's got against us, our EE-strategy (I wasn't talking about Crucible, which is, as you said, a good card to avoid to fight against hate, even if it is not a fixed slot at all in RGu lists) will be more easily circumvented by hard grave-hate (RiP is still a thing) that will anyway be boarded-innagains us. Furthermore, half the engine is a land, A.ruins, that can be more easily dealt with with card like DRS than artifacts.

So yes, the U splash give us more tool and variety to fight (and yes, also to resist to some grave-hate) but all those tools are in a way grave-dependent (EE will often end up dredged in your graveyard and will need to be put on top of library, which isn't always easy to setup), which is worth noting in this deck. That was my point. ;-)

[OldSpellMaster]

If you like to PLAY Magic, RUG is the thing. I always wanted to have a solution to everything instead of having just another combo deck.
RG has PF, Tabernacle, GQ... I think it's a mistake to just not include more possible solutions. And I never missed anything. Comboing is my last step and not my only.
I even included back the TW. It is slow. But not too slow. It's great in longer games and/or when the opp has counters. (Such a bad feeling, if a CropRotation gets countered.)And I want to play longer games if possible.
Intuition, well, I decided it just doesn't fit.

If you just wanna win tournaments, RG can be your thing... But if I wanted just that, maybe I wouldn't even play Lands!

[rlesko]

Fair enough, what you says makes sense indeed. Maybe I should have been more clear about what I meant:
My point was rather that since our opponent will board-in the maximum grave-hate he's got against us, our EE-strategy (I wasn't talking about Crucible, which is, as you said, a good card to avoid to fight against hate, even if it is not a fixed slot at all in RGu lists) will be more easily circumvented by hard grave-hate (RiP is still a thing) that will anyway be boarded-innagains us. Furthermore, half the engine is a land, A.ruins, that can be more easily dealt with with card like DRS than artifacts.

So yes, the U splash give us more tool and variety to fight (and yes, also to resist to some grave-hate) but all those tools are in a way grave-dependent (EE will often end up dredged in your graveyard and will need to be put on top of library, which isn't always easy to setup), which is worth noting in this deck. That was my point. ;-)

I still maintain that RIP really is not a thing, unless you mean some sort of local legacy scene where things are relatively stagnant ( which I would argue is not particularly relevant in a competitive forum like this one). So yes, EE still needs the graveyard for recurrence but you may still naturally draw it and tutor for it with tolaria west so there are plenty of ways to get it besides dredging. EE is both a lock engine and piece of removal - it is not only worth evaluating the card in the scenario where you have academy ruins, I would not hesitate to lose one to remove a scavenging ooze or rest in peace (if the card were actually played :tongue: )

[Wiktul]

I don't want to tell people how to build their decks unless they ask me to. I feel strongly that Magic is a game about enjoying yourself, so I don't argue about things like these cause I don't want to make people feel like they're being attacked.

One day I will have this statement tatooed on my forearm so I can show it to anyone who loves to boss everyone around, with warcries like "crap", "misplay", "noob" etc. ;)

[Lichking616]

can we still say that glacial chasm lock is still a viable play nowadays? i mean i think the lock takes time to set up. in other words, in our current environment, is it still entitled to a slot in the deck?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[djxstream]

can we still say that glacial chasm lock is still a viable play nowadays? i mean i think the lock takes time to set up. in other words, in our current environment, is it still entitled to a slot in the deck?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

price of progress says hello.

[rlesko]

can we still say that glacial chasm lock is still a viable play nowadays? i mean i think the lock takes time to set up. in other words, in our current environment, is it still entitled to a slot in the deck?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, there are many situations where it is good outside of a full lock. It is also one of our only ways of stopping a true name nemesis once that hits play. Don't underrate simply stalling for 2-3 turns and paying the upkeep cost.

[grmpytopdecker]

price of progress says hello.

You can't play around everything...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Especially if you take out the cards that help you play around it.

[Crimhead]

can we still say that glacial chasm lock is still a viable play nowadays? i mean i think the lock takes time to set up. in other words, in our current environment, is it still entitled to a slot in the deck?

The current environment features slower fair decks like Czech, Stoneblade and Grixis Pyro. They're playing threats that are harder to remove because toughness > 2 and/or they're named Leovold or TNN. Some of these decks run several basics and are harder to lock out.
But also these decks are a little slower, and some of them don't run Wasteland. Chasm lock is a fantastic play against them.

Chasm is a unique part of our defense package that more than pulls the weight of its slot.

[Darkgobs]

tl;dr version: Especially in RG, you want an accelerant in your opening hand. I essentially mulligan almost every 7 that doesn't contain one.

Second, I don't want to tell people how to build their decks unless they ask me to. I feel strongly that Magic is a game about enjoying yourself, so I don't argue about things like these cause I don't want to make people feel like they're being attacked.
Very interesting approach, I'll have to test this on a regular basis. Thanks for the tip!

But then, it also makes me think:
If accelerants are so essential that you mulligan almost every hand without at least one, why not play one more copy of it and add a second Manabound in the main deck? If it is a matter of space (which probably is), why not go up to 61 cards?

Indeed, If we do some maths, we see the following:
- 60 cards, 5 accelerants: odds of having 1 or more accelerant in the 7 opening cards are 47,45%
- 61 cards, 5 accelerants: 46,84%
- 60 cards, 6 accelerants: 54,14%
- 61 cards, 6 accelerants: 53,49%

So if having Exploration or Manabound in your first opening hand is as vital as you claim it is (and if you say it, considering your experience with the deck, it must makes sense), I am then wondering why we wouldn't give ourselves 6% more chance to draw what we need in the first seven (+6% is actually quite something!) by simply going up to 61 cards?

Maybe it is linked to the fact that we usually tend to board out the manabound, making theses statistics only relevant pre-board? Or maybe I am just missing something...


PS: I used http://stattrek.com/m/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx to get the numbers above.

/!\ EDIT:
I forgot to count the moxes as accelerants, which of course changes the maths a bit:
with 9 accelerants (exploration + manabound + moxes) and 60 cards, the odds of having one or more accelerant in the first 7 are 70,02%.
9 accelerants, 61 cards: 69,33%.
10 accelerants, 61 cards: 73,46%.
10 accelerants, 60 cards: 74,13%.

[DoctorQuantum]

Hey everyone! I'm taking RGu Lands to a 75 proxy tourney on Sunday (my first ACTUAL Legacy event too) and I wanted to get your guys' opinions on my list, especially my SB.

[DECK]
1x Academy Ruins
1x Barbarian Ring
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Crop Rotation
1x Crucible of Worlds
3x Dark Depths
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Exploration
1x Forest
3x Gamble
4x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Karakas
4x Life from the Loam
1x Manabond
3x Maze of Ith
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Molten Vortex
4x Mox Diamond
3x Punishing Fire
1x Sheltered Thicket
2x Taiga
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3x Thespian's Stage
1x Tropical Island
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
1x Windswept Heath

Sideboard
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Drop of Honey
3x Krosan Grip
2x Sphere of Resistance
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Tireless Tracker
1x Tormod's Crypt

Personally, I rather like my list at the moment, but I don't have enough testing against a lot of different MUs, so I'd still like help and opinions. Also, I'm still a little unsure on how to use Drop of Honey and when to board it in. I'm aware that it's great against TNN decks, but other than that, I'm unaware of when to use it and all of it's various applications, so help there is greatly appreciated as well. TIA!!

[Epeirogeny]

Why is Lingering Souls starting to see play in some Lands sideboards? I get the lists usually run Bojuka Bog, Riftstone Portal, Horizon Canopy, and/or Murmuring Bosk somewhere in the list to help with the color fixing. Yet, I do not see what this is supposed to come in against.

[Darkgobs]

Why is Lingering Souls starting to see play in some Lands sideboards? I get the lists usually run Bojuka Bog, Riftstone Portal, Horizon Canopy, and/or Murmuring Bosk somewhere in the list to help with the color fixing. Yet, I do not see what this is supposed to come in against.Maybe to help in metas that are heavy on edict-like effects?

[OldSpellMaster]

Maybe to help in metas that are heavy on edict-like effects?

Envoyé de mon Blackphone 2 en utilisant Tapatalk

I would put in a Mishras Facrory or other manland before I totaly push everything to the white splash for such a SB card. I don't know. Can someone explain, I don't see it either.
So if he edicts he does. He could also StP... So what...

[OldSpellMaster]

Hey everyone! I'm taking RGu Lands to a 75 proxy tourney on Sunday (my first ACTUAL Legacy event too) and I wanted to get your guys' opinions on my list, especially my SB.

[DECK]
1x Academy Ruins
1x Barbarian Ring
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Crop Rotation
1x Crucible of Worlds
3x Dark Depths
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Exploration
1x Forest
3x Gamble
4x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Karakas
4x Life from the Loam
1x Manabond
3x Maze of Ith
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Molten Vortex
4x Mox Diamond
3x Punishing Fire
1x Sheltered Thicket
2x Taiga
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3x Thespian's Stage
1x Tropical Island
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
1x Windswept Heath

Sideboard
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Drop of Honey
3x Krosan Grip
2x Sphere of Resistance
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Tireless Tracker
1x Tormod's Crypt

Personally, I rather like my list at the moment, but I don't have enough testing against a lot of different MUs, so I'd still like help and opinions. Also, I'm still a little unsure on how to use Drop of Honey and when to board it in. I'm aware that it's great against TNN decks, but other than that, I'm unaware of when to use it and all of it's various applications, so help there is greatly appreciated as well. TIA!!

My oppinion: You have EE and don't need Drop of Honey.
And I wouldn't include Tormod's Crypt.
The deck seems good for the rest.

[DoctorQuantum]

My oppinion: You have EE and don't need Drop of Honey.
And I wouldn't include Tormod's Crypt.
The deck seems good for the rest.

What would you recommend replacing Drop and Crypt with? Revokers?

[OldSpellMaster]

What would you recommend replacing Drop and Crypt with? Revokers?

Revokers are not bad. I also still experiment with Mirage Mirror but have no results (neither + nor - ) so far.
The best tip from my side: Ask at least someone else ;-)

[filln]

Why is Lingering Souls starting to see play in some Lands sideboards? I get the lists usually run Bojuka Bog, Riftstone Portal, Horizon Canopy, and/or Murmuring Bosk somewhere in the list to help with the color fixing. Yet, I do not see what this is supposed to come in against.

To my knowledge it's pretty much solely being pioneered by one of the more well-known Lands players from Japan (yekcat on MTGO). He's testing it out because it's particularly strong against midrange decks. It provides cover for the Marit Lage token against Diabolic Edict and a reasonable clock if the token gets Swords to Plowshared.

[Crimhead]

Maybe to help in metas that are heavy on edict-like effects?
I would sooner run Wail for Edict protection. No clock, but other useful modes an requires no splash.



And I wouldn't include Tormod's Crypt.

The other local Lands was running a Crypt in the board for a while. It's very good with Academy Ruins (and T.West, if you run it). It also has the benefit of firing at instant speed without needing Crop Rotation.

If your meta is heavy on graveyard decks, it might be an okay meta call.

[Ascension1223]

I would sooner run Wail for Edict protection. No clock, but other useful modes an requires no splash.


The other local Lands was running a Crypt in the board for a while. It's very good with Academy Ruins (and T.West, if you run it). It also has the benefit of firing at instant speed without needing Crop Rotation.

If your meta is heavy on graveyard decks, it might be an okay meta call.


Warping wail? That will only counter sorcery spells so diabolical edict will still get through correct?

[DNSolver]

Use the secret mode on Warping Wail.

[Crimhead]

Warping wail? That will only counter sorcery spells so diabolical edict will still get through correct?
Wail can make a token. Feed the token to the Edict, Marit Lage lives.

[Ascension1223]

Wail can make a token.

Clever girl.

[Epeirogeny]

To my knowledge it's pretty much solely being pioneered by one of the more well-known Lands players from Japan (yekcat on MTGO). He's testing it out because it's particularly strong against midrange decks. It provides cover for the Marit Lage token against Diabolic Edict and a reasonable clock if the token gets Swords to Plowshared.


Yea, I noticed it is coming from Japan. I always like to keep an eye on that meta cause it is always different. But there is no game play footage or commentary I can find on the card choice. Not only that, it is a black/white card and out of colors normally seen for lands.

I get the argument for edict effects. But similar to what someone else said about Swords to Plowshares. It is annoying, but does not break us. We can just recur the Depths and Stage back to our hand, particularly in game 1 before graveyard hate. I do not think he would use 4 whole sideboard slots (3 souls and the tri-land) just because of edict effects. Plus, Diabolic Edict is an instant so it would require us to be proactive making the spirit tokens before Marit Lage is out.

At three mana, which is on the same curve as tracker, I do not see it better than Tireless Tracker against the slow U/W control miracle decks reappearing. If I am missing something, please let me know.

It can't go wider than Grixis Delver, which is a fantastic match up anyway, so he would not use 4 slots for Delver.

Its obviously not there for any combo matchup.


So what is it coming in against? Or is Diabolic Edict really that bad against us? So far, I have not had anyone cast Edict against me, but have been Pathed and Sworded many times and it is not a big deal to dedicate sideboard slots to.

PS: is there a hexproof/shroud creature that needs to be chump blocked that Maze of Ith cannot handle?

[OldSpellMaster]

PS: is there a hexproof/shroud creature that needs to be chump blocked that Maze of Ith cannot handle?

Nothing as bad as a TNN or a Progenitus.

[skrowtobaggins]

So last night porphyry nodes spiked, Im assuming cause its a cheaper alternative to drop. Maybe not the greatest alternative but one nonetheless. Has anyone seen/heard of lists running it? I know its been tossed around but is it heading that route for budget reasons?

[Ascension1223]

Lingering souls is legit. I've won more games from it than I did with Tracker.

[chaosjace]

http://shop.tcgplayer.com/magic/product/show?ProductName=Porphyry+Nodes&newSearch=false&ProductType=All&IsProductNameExact=true
5 dollars

[Chatto]

So last night porphyry nodes spiked, Im assuming cause its a cheaper alternative to drop. Maybe not the greatest alternative but one nonetheless. Has anyone seen/heard of lists running it? I know its been tossed around but is it heading that route for budget reasons?

Could be, but i've never seen a list that run one-two in te sb. Probably because you'll have to re-tune your deck.

[rlesko]

So last night porphyry nodes spiked, Im assuming cause its a cheaper alternative to drop. Maybe not the greatest alternative but one nonetheless. Has anyone seen/heard of lists running it? I know its been tossed around but is it heading that route for budget reasons?

I was thinking about a white splash list last night. There are a decent amount of "incidental" white sources, such as Karakas and Horizon Canopy. There is also a fetchable GW cycler in Scattered Groves. And of course, play a Savannah.

For sideboard I also added Containment Priest because we are already in white and it helps with our worst match ups. Experimental SB-

1 Ancient Tomb
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Krosan Grip
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Containment Priest
2 Porphyry Nodes

[Lichking616]

I was thinking about a white splash list last night. There are a decent amount of "incidental" white sources, such as Karakas and Horizon Canopy. There is also a fetchable GW cycler in Scattered Groves. And of course, play a Savannah.

For sideboard I also added Containment Priest because we are already in white and it helps with our worst match ups. Experimental SB-

1 Ancient Tomb
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Krosan Grip
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Containment Priest
2 Porphyry Nodes

Rubbish


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Chatto]

Rubbish


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What he means is, some 'accidental' white sources, and a Savannah isn't enough.

[rlesko]

The mana can be made to work for a white splash. Seeing as though I didn't even propose a manabase for the deck it would be hard for that to have been his message. What is the minimum number of white sources needed to reliably have it by turn 2 (earliest)? This isn't like the black splash where the deck is trying to lead on thoughtseize vs combo, etc.

[somethingdotdotdot]

I'd say that a single savannah along w/ moxes and canopy is fine for a light white splash. I'm unsure w/ porphryr nodes, but I've tried the white splash on occassion with ~8 white hatebears postboard and it was fine because the decks you board in the white stuff don't typically attack your mana directly. Moon still hits quite hard, but the higher likelihood of getting a beater down early usually mitigated moon's effect more than usual.

The white for porphryr nodes is different because you are actually boarding it in vs decks that are attacking your mana, which probably makes it strictly inferior to drop of honey in most applications (cost aside). Still, I'd be interested to hear what your testing results are.

[rlesko]

I'd say that a single savannah along w/ moxes and canopy is fine for a light white splash. I'm unsure w/ porphryr nodes, but I've tried the white splash on occassion with ~8 white hatebears postboard and it was fine because the decks you board in the white stuff don't typically attack your mana directly. Moon still hits quite hard, but the higher likelihood of getting a beater down early usually mitigated moon's effect more than usual.

The white for porphryr nodes is different because you are actually boarding it in vs decks that are attacking your mana, which probably makes it strictly inferior to drop of honey in most applications (cost aside). Still, I'd be interested to hear what your testing results are.

Yea, not sure why my my idea was met with so much vitriol. I agree that it is no ideal to board nodes in against a deck that may wasteland you- but you only need to tap it for white one time (if it resolves and you get wastelanded afterwards, you probably don't care. If it gets countered and you get wastelanded afterwards, you still probably don't care). This could create some awkward situations (hence nodes being the "budget" solution to Drop), but thats why I wouldn't splash white just for porphyry nodes. The % points you lose by having node be tougher to cast could be outweighed by the % points you get against reanimator / sneak etc. Just throwing it out there.

[Chatto]

Yea, not sure why my my idea was met with so much vitriol. I agree that it is no ideal to board nodes in against a deck that may wasteland you- but you only need to tap it for white one time (if it resolves and you get wastelanded afterwards, you probably don't care. If it gets countered and you get wastelanded afterwards, you still probably don't care). This could create some awkward situations (hence nodes being the "budget" solution to Drop), but thats why I wouldn't splash white just for porphyry nodes. The % points you lose by having node be tougher to cast could be outweighed by the % points you get against reanimator / sneak etc. Just throwing it out there.

Just to be clear: I'm not attacking you. I only stated that IMHO you have to rework the manabase quiet a bit. I get that you don't want to splash W only for Nodes, and obviously white harebears are the first that come to mind. Personally, I'm more of a pure RG-player. I never liked the black splash, or any other splash fwiw. I would say bite the bullit, don't go budget.

[rlesko]

Just to be clear: I'm not attacking you. I only stated that IMHO you have to rework the manabase quiet a bit. I get that you don't want to splash W only for Nodes, and obviously white harebears are the first that come to mind. Personally, I'm more of a pure RG-player. I never liked the black splash, or any other splash fwiw. I would say bite the bullit, don't go budget.

Oh, I know you weren't. Your post was constructive - not just a 1 word insult.

I have Drops :) I just get bored of playing the same flavor of Lands all the time. Right now I'm playing the blue splash mostly but both black and white splashes are of interest to me.

[Airex]

I damn myself to not buy drop before the last GP when it was 90 €. Now i dont know if its rly worth buy 1-2 of them. I played a lot in this period and i can handle TMM/Leo without(ofc is more tricky)

[Chatto]

Oh, I know you weren't. Your post was constructive - not just a 1 word insult.

I have Drops :) I just get bored of playing the same flavor of Lands all the time. Right now I'm playing the blue splash mostly but both black and white splashes are of interest to me.

Aah ok :-) I read somewhere about Lingering Souls as well, any thoughts about that?

[rlesko]

Aah ok :-) I read somewhere about Lingering Souls as well, any thoughts about that?

I mean, I'm not a Lands expert by any stretch of the imagination but I think the deck can only support a tertiary color.

If you want edict protection play Dryad arbor / warping wail / mishra's factory.

If you want to apply pressure outside of making a 20/20 then I would play four trackers first.

If I was in white I would play cards like Nodes / hatebears / solemnity etc. If I was in black I would play hand disruption / sweepers. It is my opinion that the lingering souls version is adding two colors to the deck but not the best cards in either color. Oh, and huge nonbo with Thorn of Amethyst too.

[Chatto]

The Japanese seem to think otherwise (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-news-from-japan) :smile:

[rlesko]

Oh I know, and I actually personally know the guy in Japan whose been pioneering that. But there is always the question is he winning because of that, or in spite of that?

[Crimhead]

The Japanese seem to think otherwise (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-news-from-japan) :smile:

That's a spicy SB with Murmuring Bosk!

I don’t like it myself. For pressure I vastly prefer Tracker, and if I'm worried about Edict I like Warping Wail.

I get LS is both pressure and Edict protection, and that it plays from the yard. And card advantage. But Tracker is better card advantage, Wail is good against combo, and neither require off-colour mana.

I think Lingering Souls is fine, but I prefer other options myself.

[Ingo]

The mana can be made to work for a white splash. Seeing as though I didn't even propose a manabase for the deck it would be hard for that to have been his message. What is the minimum number of white sources needed to reliably have it by turn 2 (earliest)? This isn't like the black splash where the deck is trying to lead on thoughtseize vs combo, etc.

The consensus of a minimum of sources required to reliably play a T1 spell is 13/14 (there's an old article from Karsten Cotter on this). I don't think there's much difference between thoughtseize and CPriest, it's a T1 play versus a T2 play as you wanna be able to play both asap. David Long had 12 black sources in his blacksplash (8 lands, 4 mox), so similarly I wouldn't go below 12 white sources for a whitesplash. He did drop the Groves to enable such a manabase, so maybe you have to swap the Pfires for Vortexes too.

But personally I feel like a blacksplash is better than white. Thoughtseize hits anything, where CPriest is quite narrow. And Toxic Deluge is amazing in dealing with the same creatures (like TNN or Leovold) you'd play nodes for.

[rlesko]

The consensus of a minimum of sources required to reliably play a T1 spell is 13/14 (there's an old article from Karsten Cotter on this). I don't think there's much difference between thoughtseize and CPriest, it's a T1 play versus a T2 play as you wanna be able to play both asap. David Long had 12 black sources in his blacksplash (8 lands, 4 mox), so similarly I wouldn't go below 12 white sources for a whitesplash. He did drop the Groves to enable such a manabase, so maybe you have to swap the Pfires for Vortexes too.

But personally I feel like a blacksplash is better than white. Thoughtseize hits anything, where CPriest is quite narrow. And Toxic Deluge is amazing in dealing with the same creatures (like TNN or Leovold) you'd play nodes for.

White = 1 savannah, 1 GW fetch cycler, 4 fetch, 4 mox, canopy, karakas is 12 right there (only 1 CITP), without really messing with the mana at all.

Just to note- I always viewed that black splash list to be swapping p fires for decays, not vortexes, since even straight RG lands play 1+ vortex commonly. P fire does seem to be in a good place right now though so maybe a black splash list exists with the nice SB cards only (no decays main)

[Ciubulu]

I like my rg build and I won't change it but if I have to splash I will probably go white (even above blue and black) because you'll gain powerful cards vs our worst mu's like canonist and priest. I won't play nodes anyway but with the white splash lingering souls are a solid option

[Ingo]

P fire does seem to be in a good place right now though so maybe a black splash list exists with the nice SB cards only (no decays main)

A BG fetch cycler would be a nice thing... lets hope it gets printed.


I like my rg build and I won't change it but if I have to splash I will probably go white (even above blue and black) because you'll gain powerful cards vs our worst mu's like canonist and priest.

Containment Priest is good, but for example against BR Reanimator, it's a T2 play against T1 discard and Collective Brutality and/or Decay, so I don't know.

[Ciubulu]

Containment Priest is good, but for example against BR Reanimator, it's a T2 play against T1 discard and Collective Brutality and/or Decay, so I don't know.

Containment is great vs show and tell and sneak attack decks, it's also good vs aether vial and vs slower reanimator decks. Against br reanimator is not great as it is vs the ub version but can keep them under control in combination with a maze of ith, obviously if your best out is cropping for bog and then recurring it until they scoop or die to marit ;-)

[rlesko]

Containment Priest is good, but for example against BR Reanimator, it's a T2 play against T1 discard and Collective Brutality and/or Decay, so I don't know.

This is no different from RG lands with crop rotation and spheres. A white splash has the regular crop rotation or lock piece turn 1 plays, plus potential hatebears if mox diamonds are involved on turn 1 or turn 2.


Containment is great vs show and tell and sneak attack decks, it's also good vs aether vial and vs slower reanimator decks. Against br reanimator is not great as it is vs the ub version but can keep them under control in combination with a maze of ith, obviously if your best out is cropping for bog and then recurring it until they scoop or die to marit ;-)

I actually think its better against BR because you dont have to worry about running it into force of will / daze. And maybe they boarded out their CBs... either way, as you pointed out its great vs all our bad matchups (Sneak + reanimator)

[Ingo]

This is no different from RG lands with crop rotation and spheres. A white splash has the regular crop rotation or lock piece turn 1 plays, plus potential hatebears if mox diamonds are involved on turn 1 or turn 2.

Except that spheres/thorns fit the larger theme of manadenial along with wasteland and Port/Quarter, being part of a larger plan makes them much stronger than individual cards. Chances are that cutting cards for Priest, will in turn make the Storm matchup and any other non-fattie-combomatchup considerably worse.
I also had a comparison with Thoughtseize in mind, not Spheres. Thoughtseize is a T1 card, and it diversifies hate between permanents (spheres) and sorceries, making it harder to board against. And its useful against any problematic strategy.
Ofcourse Im biased as I like discard, but I make the comparison because both the W-splash and B-splash (instead of plain RG) require similar tweaked manabases, and discard feels like it gives you more for your sacrifices.

[Alexeezay]

^ what Ingo said. Also, I don't know why you think that Reanimator is a bad MU. I have had pretty good tournament results against it so far. Sneak Show is rough, I agree. But it's not like it's unwinnable. And OmniShow is easier because our sideboard cards are more effective there.

[OldSpellMaster]

After the top-ban, when intuition was cut and more combodecks came up, I was thinking about a white splash (either with or without my blue splash). I cut the idea. It felt more like Lands-and-Taxes instead of Lands.
Now, I must have a very good reason splashing white or black and a SB card is NOT a reason splashing both (for me).
But I'd like to find such a very good reason. I would even include Volrath's Stronghold for the perfect creature...

[rlesko]

Except that spheres/thorns fit the larger theme of manadenial along with wasteland and Port/Quarter, being part of a larger plan makes them much stronger than individual cards. Chances are that cutting cards for Priest, will in turn make the Storm matchup and any other non-fattie-combomatchup considerably worse.
I also had a comparison with Thoughtseize in mind, not Spheres. Thoughtseize is a T1 card, and it diversifies hate between permanents (spheres) and sorceries, making it harder to board against. And its useful against any problematic strategy.
Ofcourse Im biased as I like discard, but I make the comparison because both the W-splash and B-splash (instead of plain RG) require similar tweaked manabases, and discard feels like it gives you more for your sacrifices.

You know whats better than wastelands / ports + thorns / spheres? All those cards PLUS hatebears. But the point is white doesn't require an entire overhaul of the manabase like the black splash does. You only need to change 2-3 cards whereas black has to drop punishing fire entirely.


^ what Ingo said. Also, I don't know why you think that Reanimator is a bad MU. I have had pretty good tournament results against it so far. Sneak Show is rough, I agree. But it's not like it's unwinnable. And OmniShow is easier because our sideboard cards are more effective there.

Depends on the reanimator variant. Against a smart UB reanimator player I think we are heavy underdogs. I have won more than I've lost versus the BR variant. And the primary motivation IS sneak & show, but able to be boarded in against reanimator feels good too.

[Ingo]

You know whats better than wastelands / ports + thorns / spheres? All those cards PLUS hatebears.

I assumed you replaced spheres by hatebears. So if you play the hatebears along the spheres/thorns, how many combohate do you play in the side? And what cards did you cut?



But the point is white doesn't require an entire overhaul of the manabase like the black splash does. You only need to change 2-3 cards whereas black has to drop punishing fire entirely.

Black has Bog, Cabal Pit (instead of Bring) and Urborg (instead of Tomb) as it's incidental oncolor sources (along with dual/4fetch/4mox), so you can play blacksplash Pfires just as easy. Im just not sure 12 sources is enough. But now that top's gone, there's no need for maindeck decay's either, Im gonna try such a configuration next time I play.

[rlesko]

1 Ancient Tomb
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Krosan Grip
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Containment Priest
2 Porphyry Nodes

Was a quick & dirty thing I came up with. Could squeeze 2 more hatebears in place of the Crucible and Nodes, etc. Or maybe the two hatebears of choice would be Thalia + Revoker because all 4 can be brought in vs all combo, etc.

[Ingo]

1 Ancient Tomb
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Krosan Grip
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Containment Priest
2 Porphyry Nodes

Was a quick & dirty thing I came up with. Could squeeze 2 more hatebears in place of the Crucible and Nodes, etc. Or maybe the two hatebears of choice would be Thalia + Revoker because all 4 can be brought in vs all combo, etc.

Playing the Thorns instead of spheres is a nice touch with hatebears.

On a slightly different topic, I feel like we don't need Krosan Grip as much anymore as we used to. White opens up some new options, would you consider Ray of Revelation, or even Council's Judgement (the card deals with TNN and Leovold)? Double white on CJ is a lot though.

[Sparkii]

Playing the Thorns instead of spheres is a nice touch with hatebears.

On a slightly different topic, I feel like we don't need Krosan Grip as much anymore as we used to. White opens up some new options, would you consider Ray of Revelation, or even Council's Judgement (the card deals with TNN and Leovold)? Double white on CJ is a lot though.

I still like grips quite a lot. The "uncounterable" part is nothing to scoff at when trying to remove back to basics or something else important and it also does really well against certain things like batterskull bouncing or vials.

[Ingo]

I still like grips quite a lot. The "uncounterable" part is nothing to scoff at when trying to remove back to basics or something else important and it also does really well against certain things like batterskull bouncing or vials.

There's no card better at doing what Kgrip does. But there is an interesting cardpool of Kgrip-like effects like Decay or Song of the Dryads with specific advantages (and disadvantages) over Kgrip. Just wondering if Council's Judgement could be one of them when playing a whitesplash (in regards to dealing with TNN or Leovold, the card sits between KGrip and Nodes).

[rlesko]

I had a similar thought lately (Regrading cutting Krosan Grip). I think it is still needed but definitely not necessary to have 4. I am comfortable with 3. I would even consider shaving it down to 2. Seems the meta isn't Counterbalance / Blood Moon anymore and its more like Surgical / Edict. Though it depends on whether you are ok with randomly getting screwed by an Ensnaring Bridge / B2B.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I've played 2 in a few leagues and it feels ok since you rarely want to see multiples and can gamble. It does feel really bad when running into leyline decks that can easily answer the token and also probably not a good idea to scrimp on grip if you play against blood moon or tezzeret regularly.

[inevitablepnut]

I have been playing this to much success lately! Feels good all around.

-Main
4 Crop Rotation
3 Gamble
3 Burning Wish
3 Life from the Loam
2 Punishing Fire
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
1 Manabond
1 Molten Vortex
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Rishadan Port
1 Sheltered Thicket
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

-Sideboard
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Hull Breach
1 Life from the Loam
1 Firespout
2 Krosan Grip
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
1 Drop of Honey
1 Ancient Tomb

https://www.topdecked.me/decks/d86e33d2-296e-4e03-bb70-c389b6148575

[Ingo]

I have been playing this to much success lately! Feels good all around.

https://www.topdecked.me/decks/d86e33d2-296e-4e03-bb70-c389b6148575

Looks like a very balanced list, nice to see some Burning Wishes!
I think the Firespout overlaps a bit with the Devastating Dreams, so I'd be tempted to add a tiny blacksplash and swap it for a Toxic Deluge, as it gets rid of creatures that survive Dreams (mom, TNN, bigger creatures like Kotr or Eldrazi ...)

[inevitablepnut]

Looks like a very balanced list, nice to see some Burning Wishes!
I think the Firespout overlaps a bit with the Devastating Dreams, so I'd be tempted to add a tiny blacksplash and swap it for a Toxic Deluge, as it gets rid of creatures that survive Dreams (mom, TNN, bigger creatures like Kotr or Eldrazi ...)

That would be interesting.. I would find it difficult to find the cuts for the black splash tho although deluge would be spicy as hell! Frirespout is there when i don't have a significant land advantage or cards to discard to the dreams.

[Ingo]

That would be interesting.. I would find it difficult to find the cuts for the black splash tho although deluge would be spicy as hell! Frirespout is there when i don't have a significant land advantage or cards to discard to the dreams.

Apart from splashing black, I think your list might be too tight on the greenproviding lands, as there are 11 of which 2 enter play tapped. So maybe you should move Karakas to the side and replace it with a Bayou.

[Manroe]

Hi everyone.

I'm a new Lands player and I'm still learning a lot everytime I play this deck. That being said, I'm curious if any of the more experienced players have tried out a living wish package. My main questions about living wish are:

1) What gets removed from the main (I think this would be a depths, Maze, and/or gamble)?

2) Are the benefits of Living Wish worth changing the streamlined deck

3) What cards make up your "Wish Board"?

I think the cards I'd consider would be:
Dark Depths
Bojuka Bog
Maze of Ith
Azusa, lost but seeking
Oracle of Mul Daya
Courser of Kruphix
Primeval Titan
Ramunap Excavator

Thanks!



Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

[baboontilt]

Hi everyone.

I'm a new Lands player and I'm still learning a lot everytime I play this deck. That being said, I'm curious if any of the more experienced players have tried out a living wish package. My main questions about living wish are:

1) What gets removed from the main (I think this would be a depths, Maze, and/or gamble)?

2) Are the benefits of Living Wish worth changing the streamlined deck

3) What cards make up your "Wish Board"?

I think the cards I'd consider would be:
Dark Depths
Bojuka Bog
Maze of Ith
Azusa, lost but seeking
Oracle of Mul Daya
Courser of Kruphix
Primeval Titan
Ramunap Excavator

Thanks!



Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

There was a Bant Living Wish build featured at GP Paris 2014, obviously out of date, but here is the original list:

Sorcery (13)
2 Life from the Loam
4 Living Wish
4 Ponder
3 Supreme Verdict
Instant (16)
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
4 Force of Will
4 Intuition
Enchantment (4)
4 Exploration
Land (27)
1 Dark Depths
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Flooded Strand
1 Maze of Ith
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Savannah
3 Thespian's Stage
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
60 Cards
Sideboard (15)

1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Karakas
1 Meddling Mage
1 Peacekeeper
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Spell Pierce
1 Sylvan Safekeeper

This was the first lands list I actually built (before I had my Tabby). Wasteland in the board was great for me, and I think Tracker would be an auto-include nowadays.

[Chatto]

Hi everyone.

I'm a new Lands player and I'm still learning a lot everytime I play this deck. That being said, I'm curious if any of the more experienced players have tried out a living wish package. My main questions about living wish are:

1) What gets removed from the main (I think this would be a depths, Maze, and/or gamble)?

2) Are the benefits of Living Wish worth changing the streamlined deck

3) What cards make up your "Wish Board"?

I think the cards I'd consider would be:
Dark Depths
Bojuka Bog
Maze of Ith
Azusa, lost but seeking
Oracle of Mul Daya
Courser of Kruphix
Primeval Titan
Ramunap Excavator

Thanks!



Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

Welcome, Manroe!

Hmmm, that card hasn't crossed my mind for quiet some time.

1. Depths, other utility land are the first cards that cross my mind. Gamble to make room... Yeah, why not, but shave one max(?)

2. No, because imho your deck becomes another beast all together.

3. In all honesty, no idea. Do you want to stay RG, or are you planning to splash another colour?

[Claymore]

Living Wish to grab an Excavator isn't half bad...

[Manroe]

Welcome, Manroe!

Hmmm, that card hasn't crossed my mind for quiet some time.

1. Depths, other utility land are the first cards that cross my mind. Gamble to make room... Yeah, why not, but shave one max(?)

2. No, because imho your deck becomes another beast all together.

3. In all honesty, no idea. Do you want to stay RG, or are you planning to splash another colour?Thanks for the quick replies and warm welcome all. I wasn't sure if the wish idea would warrant another color but the Bant list above intrigues me. Intuition just seems incredible in this kind of deck.

I think the format may be too fast for this sort of change but once I feel more comfortable with it, I'll probably give it a go for the hell of it.

I also really enjoy playing smallpox with the depths shell but again thats another deck completely.


Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

[rlesko]

So, the format is not only very fast but also the most played creature is deathrite shaman. Playing around / through it is critical. Intuition really feels bad vs an active deathrite.

[OldSpellMaster]

Just my thoughts about the 'tutors'. (really just my oppinion)
When I came back to Lands, before I read the forum, I was also thinking about Living Wish so I start with that.
It was a good idea having a tutor for every land solution in the board (I thought). You don't need to have those solutions in MB. So, you don't draw a card you don't need.
Well, there are some problems about that. A bigger wishboard means a smaller sideboard. G2, you maybe want to side in the correct solution cards, which makes the wish unuseful. Then you need Crop Rotation to get it, but CR is not that useful G1 where you have your solution in the SB. So, maybe you put the most needed cards in MB and SB which kills your slots. Or you don't side in and get the wishes countered or extracted.
What's left is putting one of the 4ofs in the side so you have like 7 of Wasteland, DD, Stage... But need to cast a spell for it... Where you already have CR.
Finally, the upside doesn't compare to the downside. But still a tutor to consider.

So next, how many tutors should I put in a Lands deck. I'd say about 8 is normal. That's (normally) 4CR and 4Gamble. You have to ask yourself: Should I put in more and what kind makes sense.

What I want with tutors:
1. Get Exploration (fast)
2. Get Loam (fast)
3. Get a specific land
4. Get something else (EE for RUG...)

In the early game, I really really wanna have point 1 and 2. Followed by point 3 to get the perfect solution agains my opponent in form of a land. Later, I want the other points OR maybe Exploration/Loam are lost and I have to get it again... But still, I wanna have cheap tutors for point 1-2, then 3 in the start hand. I don't want an expensive midgame tutor in the start hand (and also, it's not nice to dredge one away).
Better draw a good starting tutor midgame than having a great midgame tutor in starthand.

So which tutor fits best?

Tutors:
- Gamble
low cost. Great loam tutor. Tutors Exploration with a little risk. Counterable, but in T1 maybe he needs FoW.
Tutored card in hand after resolution. -> fast.
- Crop Rotation
low cost. Doesn't get loam or Ex. Risky when countered. Tutored card on the BF instant speed(!) without landdrop after resolution. -> fast.
- Intuition
high cost->high risk of being countered. Needs blue splash. Excellent tutor for loam and combo. Can tutor 3Ex. Tutors lands. Most needed tutored card in grave after resolution. -> slow
Attention: Gravehate, counterspells.
- Burning Wish
mid cost. Tutors loam even if that is extracted. Nothing else. Card in hand after resolution. -> fast
- Living Wish
mid cost. Tutors just lands in the side (creatures are not relevant). Card in hand after resolution. -> ok
- Entomb
low cost but needs black splash. Tutors loam well. Later, tutors lands. Counterable, but in T1 maybe he needs FoW. Card in grave after resolution. -> ok to slow
Attention: Gravehate
- Enlighted Tutor
low cost but needs white splash. Tutors Ex. Card on top of library after resolution. -> slow
- Tolaria West
high cost, needs blue splash. Uncounterable recurrable (the only one of them). Tutors lands and 0/x artifacts. Card in hand after resolution -> ok

See, Gamble plus CR seems to be the best combination for points 1 to 3. Cheap and fast. Resistant to gravehate (more or less). Good in starthand.

If you feel good with other combinations or just more tutors... Sure... All tutors have good points... I have a TW for midgame, a friend added Entomb to get that Loam... Many possibilities...

Oh and about DRS: I wouldn't cut Intuition just because of DRS. Dredging is bad as well under a DRS and I wouldn't cut Loam ;-)

[djxstream]

- Crop Rotation
low cost. Doesn't get loam or Ex. Risky when countered. Tutored card on the BF instant speed(!) without landdrop after resolution. -> fast.


you're forgetting the best part of crop rotation in a deck with 30+ non basic lands. Respond to an opponent wastelanding you.

While gamble maybe replaceable in some sense, crop rotation isnt.

[OldSpellMaster]

you're forgetting the best part of crop rotation in a deck with 30+ non basic lands. Respond to an opponent wastelanding you.

While gamble maybe replaceable in some sense, crop rotation isnt.

Good point (so top land tutor plus this positive effect)

[hoernchen]

I am really struggeling against D&T in the previous time. in my store all of the guys are running Magus main and have so much hate with 3 Karakas and 4 Swords Main, so it feels impossible to combo off.
Do you have any suggestion how to best approach this MU, how to SB?

[Airex]

I am really struggeling against D&T in the previous time. in my store all of the guys are running Magus main and have so much hate with 3 Karakas and 4 Swords Main, so it feels impossible to combo off.
Do you have any suggestion how to best approach this MU, how to SB?

Waste, port, karakas, swords and flokerwhisp r normal D&T mainboard, so u can combo off if he taps out, or play a control game G1(i always play 30 min G1 against D&T).
Post side it become easier more or less, ok he run RIP but u can SIDE IN Kozilek’s retourn/Sulfur elemental, drop of honey and some krossan. (Sorry for my bad english)