[Primer] R/G Lands

[Dice_Box]

Oh, i know that, but compared with a couple of months ago the price decided to go up with about 100%... Meaning I bought it really really cheap (figure of speech)

I did not see it jump that much. I have seen them double over 2 years but not over 2 months. Where are you getting your numbers?

[Chatto]

The one I own is in pretty good shape, I didn't pay that much... Paid around € 350 (€ 380, including shipping) Found the prices here: https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/Products/Singles/Legends/The+Tabernacle+at+Pendrell+Vale

[grmpytopdecker]

I enlisted the help of some European friends to get an Italian Tabernacle for US$360 shipped, which is a great deal for a Canadian like me ;)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[StinkmothNexus]

I have been watching the prices of Tabernacles for a while now on ebay. An Italian can still be had for about four hundred bucks if you are patient. A mint English just went for just under seven hundred. Holy cow.

I myself have been building R/G lands, and am almost there. The Tabernacle will be the last piece I grab, and I want an english one really badly. I have seen a played English go for about five hundred on ebay, but that is a big expense to have to justify to the wife. Many months of buying nothing and maybe a present for her before hand. :wink:

Side note, I used to have a Tabernacle when i was like, fifteen, back in 1996. I remember that being a fifteen dollar card I didnt really know what to do with. Oi.

[lavafrogg]

Will be updating the Primer during my night shift tonight. Adding an update on Boseiju, adding the primer Long did and will finish off the artifact part I was working on. If I have missed anything please let me know.

Lava, I would keep your Trops, they are useful if you ever wish to play the RUG version of this deck (Something I do from time to time and is fun) They also help with the Artifact splash build. If you can, hold off and save up for the Tab and try and keep two of your Trops, they are useful once you finish building. That said, welcome to the fold. May you verse (sorry, punish) many a Delver.

I can replace the trops as I need to, the tabernacle investment is just a little heavy all at once. You can also find trops for 120-150 which would save me money over the 550 for the English tabernacle.

[StinkmothNexus]

Wasnt sure if I should start a whole new thread for this, and it seemed like that would be a waste of space. Basically, i have built a variant of R/G lands that I am calling "Nexus Holdem." The deck is almost identical to standard R/G builds, but removes the Dark Depths, and instead, uses Inkmoth Nexus and Centaur Gardens as a win condition.

OK you ask, why the heck would anyone do that?

As my screen name gives away, I played infect and loved the Inkmoth. I thought it would fit into a lands build well, as you could crop for it, loam it - thus regenerating it, and by playing for ten poison counters, you never have to worry about the opponents actual life total, hence punishing fire and Grove of the Burnwillows can be used at leisure without concern. Also, I have tossed a couple of Natures Claims into the maindeck, which can be sided out for Krosan Grips. The great thing about Natures Claim is the one green mana casting cost. Your opponent gains four life if it resolves, but again, playing for poison removes any concern about their life total. (Note, I beat a miracles player recently by using natures claim on their top after their first turn. They of course activated it, but it bought a turn, which is like a 1G timewalk. Note 2, i also used Natures Claim post board when they had mulliganed for a Blood Moon, and were tapped out to cast it. Expecting such, my untapped mox diamond was enough to quickly destroy the blood moon and they had no FoW in hand.)

Of course, Marit Lage is well tested, and I will likely play with that build at an invitational this summer. However, i am going to a small event this weekend that usually has about twenty players, and I am going to give this build a run.

The general concept is getting the opponent into a waste/port lock, and when the board is controlled, sacking however many Centaurs Gardens you have to pump your Inkmoth for the kill. Gentaurs Garden also can provide much needed green mana, and the requirement of having seven cards in the grave yard is simply met with lands. When I have my final build decided upon, Ill post a decklist and a tourney result.

Side question, has anyone ever tried working in Halimar Depths? (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=380231).

[Ingo]

OK you ask, why the heck would anyone do that?


I don't see any reason to do this, except the fact that you personally love Inkmoth Nexus and want to build around it. Blinkmoth also isn't indestructible, and Swords removes it permanently where Stage/Depths can be recycled by loam.
The lifegain doesn't really matter if you can beat it down 20 damage per turn (and mostly your opponent sacs some life to fetches so one hit is usually enough).

[lavafrogg]

Has anyone tried a light black splash for sideboard options of discard/Ravens crime/slaughter games/bobs and abrupt decays?

I am working on sideboard options now and a boseju can force lots of spells through counter magic.

The more I keep reading and watching the more I understand. I have watched most of the matches and write ups.

The sideboard seems to be the most unstable element of the decks.

[Rampart]

The first R/G lands lists by Kurt S. a couple years ago had a black splash in them for Bob, Crime, Thoughtseize and Last Rites.

I played with a little black splash for a while and really liked it when the local metagame was super hostel to graveyard strategies. Its really great to have bob in the board when you can't rely on the yard ever. Primeval Titan fills the same role to some extent though. I don't think raven's crime is a little splash though as you will need an urborg in addition to a bayou to really power that effect out. Don't forget that wurm harvest is in those colors too

Abrupt Decay/K-Grip is usually a split with a black splash as you really want to be able to hit the big enchantments like sneak attack/Omniscience/Humility etc.

Really all you force through with Bosejiu is Loam, I guess you can force through a punishing fire but its not like you side Bosejiu in against BUG/RUG as its slow against them. I liked it more when I was playing the Control builds because I could at least tutor for it with T.West or got added value being able to force through and intuition also.

[Bragi]

Hey guys, one question: If I play a stock R/G lands build, how many Punishing Fire do I want vs Miracles postboard? I have no idea, honestly. Do I want the full 4? I think that 1-2 might enough, but what's been your impression?

Thanks!

[Rampart]

It depends on what type of miracles they are playing against as they are basically 4 types. Ponder, Legendary, Stoneforge and RIP. It also depends on how your sideboard is structured.

I normally leave in two personally, but if they are playing Stoneforge I might leave in more. I cut all of them if they are playing RIP

[Rivfader]

(Concerning black splash) I have been playing black for some time now, and only for 2 Abrupt Decay. I feel like they hold the middleground between Punishing Fire and Krosan Grip, and run them in a 3pf/2ad/2kg configuration (which opens 1 sideslot in comparison to 4pf/4kg).

I have casually tested Thoughtseize and Slaughtergames. Thoughtseize was very good when it resolbved, especially in addition with the spheres that slowed the game down. But often I held the discard without a black source in crucial first turns, which is why I don't try this anymore.
Tested Slaughtergames casually as well, but it's expensive and not synergistic with the spheres, which usually are boarded in in the same matchups. I had the best result with it versus Miracles, stripping plows and shuffling the top-3-cards away, and afterwards making a token.

[Dice_Box]

On Miracles: You have a ton of things to Side out but equally you have a ton you can side it. You just need to find the right balance, and the build matters too.

On the Black Splash: Jund Depths does it better. If that is the path you what to go, look at that as an example. I find Combo is built so much on one path and with one core that once you try and add more paths and cores, you look at causing conflicts in the flow of the deck.

[Rivfader]

On the Black Splash: Jund Depths does it better. If that is the path you what to go, look at that as an example. I find Combo is built so much on one path and with one core that once you try and add more paths and cores, you look at causing conflicts in the flow of the deck.
It's just a splash for sidecards, not like Junddepths which has black as it's primary color. There's no difference for the flow of the deck when running 2KG/2AD versus 4KG in the side. If you run Lands/Bayou through TCdecks, quite some results pop up, usually with Abrupt Decay, Slaughtergames and Bob, all in the side.

[lavafrogg]

I will say that through the first week of texting I am extremely surprised at how often and easy the deck just makes an early, turn 2-4) 20/20 and it is just good enough.

That coupled with gamble being a borderline unfair card and the deck is tons of fun to play.

That being said, this deck has shown me some of the most useles hands I have ever witnessed in magic and also has games where you actually do nothing.

[Chatto]

I will say that through the first week of texting I am extremely surprised at how often and easy the deck just makes an early, turn 2-4) 20/20 and it is just good enough.

That coupled with gamble being a borderline unfair card and the deck is tons of fun to play.

That being said, this deck has shown me some of the most useles hands I have ever witnessed in magic and also has games where you actually do nothing.

Jup, be prepared to take alot of mulligans! But with basically eight LftL's you can be back on track within no time :smile:

[Dice_Box]

I would warn against seeing Gamble as a straight analog for Loam. Loam being countered is a speed bump in your plan, Gamble is a road block. Just keep that in mind when playing.

[Chatto]

True, but most soft-counters can be played around. The only real hurdle would be FoW or targeted discard (on the draw). Most of the time, I do have a lot of 'luck' drawing LotL in my opener or first mulligan.

But hey, nothing beats a good gamble once in a while... Get it, Gamble, ghehehe *awkward laughing*

[Darkgobs]

Jup, be prepared to take alot of mulligans! [...]

This is true: you really shouldn't hesitate to mulligan with this deck, especially since:
1/ you've got no real cantrip to find the cards you need, like BS/Ponder (you can dredge with Loam, but that's not the same thing), so just waiting to blindly draw the right cards isn't a good plan (and actually one of the weakness of this deck.
2/ the deck mulligans pretty well, way better than a lot of other decks. And quite often the decent 5-cards hand I kept won me the game, instead of going with a mediocre 6-cards hand that don't do much, waiting for a good topdeck to show up (this is especially true post-board, or if you know what you're up against in G1).

So, as someone allready said here: you'll have to learn to mulligan with this deck. Because it's often needed and because the deck has a really good mulligan capacity. Just do it! :wink:

[door]

Hey, I've just taken the Saint-Petersburg legacy open! Discarding tha value cards with gamble the whole day, but made it nevertheless.
45 players
r1 Esperblade 2-0
r2 Jund with postboard Blood Moons 2-1
r3 Grixis delver 2-0
r4 Grixis control 2-1
id
id
top8 Miracles 2-1, won with the sudden death rule after 1,5 hrs
top4 DnT 2-0
finals Miracles 2-1

However still not satisfied with the Miracles matchup. Need more tuning.

The list was the same (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29193-Deck-R-G-Combo-Lands&p=879462&viewfull=1#post879462), sideboard changed slightly:
1 Dark Depths
1 Primeval Titan
4 Krosan Grip
2 Thalia
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Trinisphere
1 Sphere of Resistance
2 Choke
1 Enlightened Tutor

[lavafrogg]

What does your white splash splash add? Are Thalia/canonist that much better than straight sphere of resistances? I can't imagine the 10 turn clocks they provide matter more than the color requirements or the additional strain on the mana base.

I think if you were adding white it would be for more than 1 enlightened tutor but I don't see enlightened tutors helping against miracles.

[lavafrogg]

Question: if you were playing in a mega with zero combo, what would your sideboard look like?

[Chatto]

Question: if you were playing in a mega with zero combo, what would your sideboard look like?

Zero combo would be nice :smile: I would probably splash black for 4 Dark Confidant. Not sure what other cards.

@ door: nice going!

[Rivfader]

Nice work, door! How were the Miracles matchups, did Worm Harvest come in handy?

[lavafrogg]

I'm a dick.... Great finish! Sorry I didn't say it earlier.

[Darkgobs]

The list was the same (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29193-Deck-R-G-Combo-Lands&p=879462&viewfull=1#post879462), sideboard changed slightly:
1 Dark Depths
1 Primeval Titan
4 Krosan Grip
2 Thalia
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Trinisphere
1 Sphere of Resistance
2 Choke
1 Enlightened Tutor

Hey congrats for this nice performance!

I also have a few questions:
1/ Why play 2 Trinisphere over 2 others Sphere of Resistance, which seems to be better? SoR comes earlier, and the Trini are usually the 5th and 6th Sphere. What are your thoughts about this?
2/ Since you don't have a real toolbox (no EE, no Zuran, no Smokestack), is the 1 Enlightened Tutor really better than simply going for +1 Ethersworn Canonist/Thalia or +1 Sphere of Resistance? Against Miracle it seems to me that you are just increasing the odd of being countered, while trying to resolve a Sphere T2 seems a bit safer and, in particular, is less subject to Card Disadvantage and has simplier mana requirement?
3/ Also, you're playing 3 Crop and 2 Manabound in the 61. Don't you prefere the 4th Crop over the 2nd Manabound, especially since you are playing both Karakas and Bojukra MD?
4/ You play 2 Tranquil Thicket and 1 Horizon Canopy, but "only" 2 Depths. Would you consider cutting one Thicket for a 3rd DD maindeck (plus the 4rd in the sidebaord), or do you really need the extra mana for the Worm Harvest?
5/ Again, GG and thanks for your report!

@ Everyone here: Would you guys side the Karakas in (or keep it in the main) post-board against D&T?

[door]

Hey congrats for this nice performance!

I also have a few questions:
1/ Why play 2 Trinisphere over 2 others Sphere of Resistance, which seems to be better? SoR comes earlier, and the Trini are usually the 5th and 6th Sphere. What are your thoughts about this?
2/ Since you don't have a real toolbox (no EE, no Zuran, no Smokestack), is the 1 Enlightened Tutor really better than simply going for +1 Ethersworn Canonist/Thalia or +1 Sphere of Resistance? Against Miracle it seems to me that you are just increasing the odd of being countered, while trying to resolve a Sphere T2 seems a bit safer and, in particular, is less subject to Card Disadvantage and has simplier mana requirement?
3/ Also, you're playing 3 Crop and 2 Manabound in the 61. Don't you prefere the 4th Crop over the 2nd Manabound, especially since you are playing both Karakas and Bojukra MD?
4/ You play 2 Tranquil Thicket and 1 Horizon Canopy, but "only" 2 Depths. Would you consider cutting one Thicket for a 3rd DD maindeck (plus the 4rd in the sidebaord), or do you really need the extra mana for the Worm Harvest?
5/ Again, GG and thanks for your report!

@ Everyone here: Would you guys side the Karakas in (or keep it in the main) post-board against D&T?

Thank you, guys. I think I partly answered some of these questions earlier, but no problem.

1. Trini is better against Omni when put from Show and tell. Since I see much more Omnitells than Strom these days, I went that way.
2. Enlightened tutor is mainly against combo decks, not Miracles. Depending on a starting hand I have a choice of a Trini, a Sphere, a Choke or a Canonist. Being a "third" choke in a Miracles matchup and Grixis control is a nice bonus. Also in my experience Sphere does nothing against Miracles, while Thalia can attack, eat an StP. The games are very long sometimes and those attacks can matter.
3. I don't miss the forth Crop. It's so unreliable against blue decks. However, 4 crops are needed if you expect to face reanimator.
4. I cut the third depths long time ago and it's not connected with the drawing lands. More stable starts are better than some tiny % of a fast natural combo. Also I prefer more drawing lands for better plays around Deathrite and Surgical.


What does your white splash splash add? Are Thalia/canonist that much better than straight sphere of resistances? I can't imagine the 10 turn clocks they provide matter more than the color requirements or the additional strain on the mana base.
I think if you were adding white it would be for more than 1 enlightened tutor but I don't see enlightened tutors helping against miracles.
You can keep a hand with Thalia/Canonist without Loam, draw 1-2 wastelands/ports and win via 10 turns. But you won't win with the same hand with the Sphere, you'll need to find the wincon. Although I don't have white mana t1 all the time, that's the weakness indeed. I am still in a process of finding the balanced sideboard.


Question: if you were playing in a mega with zero combo, what would your sideboard look like?
smth like 3 Choke, 2 Titan, 2 Pithing Needle, Zuran Orb, 2 Depths, 4 Krosan Grip, 1 Ray of Revelation or Ancient Grudge. Or perhaps make a black splash and play 3 Grip, 3 Abrupt Decay.


Nice work, door! How were the Miracles matchups, did Worm Harvest come in handy?
Games with Miracles were tough as always. This time Worm Harvest didn't come, but I have no intention to cut it. It wins games sometimes, enough for 1 slot. If it comes in the first game against Miracles, they usually loose after that.

[lavafrogg]

Bam! Just traded 4 future sight goyfs for a tabernacle! Come on USPS!

[Chatto]

Bam! Just traded 4 future sight goyfs for a tabernacle! Come on USPS!

Welcome, my young and ignorant friend... :smile:

[barcode]

Played RG Lands at GP Vegas on Thursday and Sunday. Somehow on Thursday I managed to go 6-0 in games against Storm! Then I played Death and Taxes and then the pairdown vs. Miracles. Miracles assembled top/counterbalance early but couldn't find a 2. We played a 45 minute game where he eventually conceded to try and win game 2 and 3. He didn't and it ended 1-0-1 for me.

Sunday was more even. I punted vs. Infect (twice) and then had the 12-post pairing which I've never beaten.

Deck is still sweet and I'm happy to be playing it.

[lavafrogg]

Welcome, my young and ignorant friend... :smile:

How so?

[Chatto]

@ lavafrog: just a little joke, Tabernacle is one of the sweetest cards around! You won't be sorry owning it.

I once played a MU against a guy who was on SnT. He told me he was fairly new to Legacy, and just bought all Duals and most staples, worth around € 10.000. After the game, he and his friends asked me if they could see my Tabernacle. So I grabbed the card and showed it to them. The strangest thing occured: they all gazed at it in awe... That's what an effect Tabernacle has on some people :laugh:

@ barcode: how did you do in the end? And which 75 did you bring?

[lavafrogg]

@ lavafrog: just a little joke, Tabernacle is one of the sweetest cards around! You won't be sorry owning it.

I once played a MU against a guy who was on SnT. He told me he was fairly new to Legacy, and just bought all Duals and most staples, worth around € 10.000. After the game, he and his friends asked me if they could see my Tabernacle. So I grabbed the card and showed it to them. The strangest thing occured: they all gazed at it in awe... That's what an effect Tabernacle has on some people :laugh:

@ barcode: how did you do in the end? And which 75 did you bring?

Lol, thanks!

[barcode]

@ barcode: how did you do in the end? And which 75 did you bring?

On Thursday: 9-1-1 in games (5-0 overall match score) for a sweet 720 tix.

On Sunday I can't recall game scores but I was 3-2 overall. I played this:


3 Crop Rotation
3 Dark Depths
4 Exploration
1 Forest
4 Gamble
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
4 Life from the Loam
2 Manabond
3 Maze of Ith
4 Mox Diamond
4 Punishing Fire
4 Rishadan Port
3 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:

1 Bojuka Bog
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Choke
1 Cursed Totem
4 Krosan Grip
2 Primeval Titan
4 Sphere of Resistance


Very happy overall with the 75. Cursed Totem hasn't been pulling its weight and may get turned into another Choke or Sphere effect. I tried Seal of Primordium to have a 5th Krosan Grip (and to leave it in play, bypassing an early Counterbalance) but Seal was awful.

[lavafrogg]

Has anyone tried noxious recival as a 2 of in the board? Protects loams, rebuys sideboard cards and also uses the graveyard as a resource so you can dredge for anything.

Thoughts?

[Dice_Box]

Has anyone tried noxious recival as a 2 of in the board? Protects loams, rebuys sideboard cards and also uses the graveyard as a resource so you can dredge for anything.

Thoughts?

What would you cut to add it? That is always the balancing act, when you want to ad something you need to be sure it is better than the items you are taking away.

[lavafrogg]

What would you cut to add it? That is always the balancing act, when you want to ad something you need to be sure it is better than the items you are taking away.

4 krosan grip
4 sphere of resistance
2 noxious revival
1 primeval Titan
1 bojuka bog
1 karakas
1 choke
1 dark depths/emrakul

This is what I am currently testing. My main is standard except -1 manabond +1worm harvest to make sure I can win game 1 against miracles. Noxious revival has just been super helpful and I am wondering if anyone else has tested.

[Chatto]

Well, never thought about that card. I use 1 Thicket and 1 Canopy as protection for LftL, bit getting valuable SB-cards back is tech.

One thing to consider as well: NR can buy you a turn against Reanimator,

Opp: Entomb, fatty in GY
Me: EoT cast NR

Pretty narrow, but it can happen.

[Whitefaces]

One thing to consider as well: NR can buy you a turn against Reanimator,

Opp: Entomb, fatty in GY
Me: EoT cast NR

Pretty narrow, but it can happen.

Or you just do it in response to their reanimate/exhume?

[door]

Has anyone tried noxious recival as a 2 of in the board? Protects loams, rebuys sideboard cards and also uses the graveyard as a resource so you can dredge for anything.

Thoughts?

Every time I thought about that card (I did), I came up with "I better put another choke in SB" =)

[barcode]

Has anyone tried noxious recival as a 2 of in the board? Protects loams, rebuys sideboard cards and also uses the graveyard as a resource so you can dredge for anything.

Thoughts?

Skeptical.

Tranquil Thicket protects Loam (better than revival). If you want to have another sideboard card why not just add another of that. Lands sideboards tend to have lots of 4-ofs for redundancy and to draw more of them. Noxious Revival stealing your draw step makes it a very heavy cost when there's no guarantee that you'll have Noxious Revival in your hand or have a card in your graveyard worth putting on top.

[Chatto]

Or you just do it in response to their reanimate/exhume?

Even better, you're absolutely right.

[gigapatrick]

Noxious Revival seems super bad to me, since 1) it's card disadvantage in the same way Enlightened Tutor is, while simultaneously being less versatile, and, more importantly, 2) it is a graveyard-reliant card in the board, which means you can only play it after your opponent has boarded in a bunch of graveyard hate.

[lavafrogg]

Noxious Revival seems super bad to me, since 1) it's card disadvantage in the same way Enlightened Tutor is, while simultaneously being less versatile, and, more importantly, 2) it is a graveyard-reliant card in the board, which means you can only play it after your opponent has boarded in a bunch of graveyard hate.

Loam decks don't really play by normal card advantage rules. The deck really only cares for a set number of cards. Rest in peace merits 4x krosan grip and noxious revival helps against all other graveyard hate by saving loams from extraction for free, dodges crypt for free, and also lets you dredge into non land cards that would help.

Since it has an alternate cost it also helps in matchups with blood moon, getting back moxes or gambles.

[Chatto]

If you would stick to 'save SB-cards from the GY' I would consider the card, but LftL is easier (and most importantly without the risk of being countered) 'saved' with Thicket and/or Canopy.

[Dice_Box]

If you would stick to 'save SB-cards from the GY' I would consider the card, but LftL is easier (and most importantly without the risk of being countered) 'saved' with Thicket and/or Canopy.

I am in agreement with this. Also if you want to save sideboard cards, run one of the two Ruins. I know it doesn't save everything, but it's close enough while fitting into the plan.

[Rampart]

Loam decks don't really play by normal card advantage rules. The deck really only cares for a set number of cards. Rest in peace merits 4x krosan grip and noxious revival helps against all other graveyard hate by saving loams from extraction for free, dodges crypt for free, and also lets you dredge into non land cards that would help.

Since it has an alternate cost it also helps in matchups with blood moon, getting back moxes or gambles.

So, congrats on getting your tabernacle and welcome to the brotherhood of misery.

Its true that loam decks would like to not play by normal card advantage rules but in a lot of cases especially after sideboard they are forced to play by normal card advantage rules. You can't rely on loam in games 2 or 3 and learning to play without loam will provide you the greatest level of tournament success. Losing card advantage is a big deal in the sideboard games because your a G/R deck and you don't have access the cantrip suite like most legacy decks have access to, you can't dig without Loam and you need to rely on specific answers to either sideboard hate or learn to play around it.

RIP isn't the reason for 4 grips, its RIP plus some of the following, T-Web, Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, Top, Counterbalance, Omniscience and the millions of other things you need to grip its the most flexible card for what it does in this version of lands. I have a feeling that you already know this though.

So, Noxious Revival. I don't think its bad but it probably requires to much work and to much set-up for it to really shine this is proabably because of the role it plays. Noxious Revival is purely a reactive card and this version of lands is very proactive in what it is trying to achieve, also if you want an similar effect I would probably run SDT because you get more dig that's not GY dependent. I think the real issue though with it is the two sideboard slots it takes to make it work. You basically have 4 Grip and 6-7 Resister effects for combo which gives you about 4-5 open slots in the sideboard. I don't want to take two of those slots up to "get" my opponent maybe. I would rather run card that do something proactive like Assualt, Titan, Choke etc.

[lavafrogg]

If you would stick to 'save SB-cards from the GY' I would consider the card, but LftL is easier (and most importantly without the risk of being countered) 'saved' with Thicket and/or Canopy.

I am playing in a tournament next week so I can let you know how revival does in a tournament setting. Until then I have not seen a sideboard that anyone has been really happy with consistently except for 4 grips 4 spheres it seems that everything else is up for debate.

[Dice_Box]

4 Sphere, 4 Grip, a utility land and two other pieces of Combo hate I think is standard. (Chalice, 3shpere) Since I run 2 lands in the side, that leaves me three slots to play with, I do not think that card is strong enough to take any of those three slots.

[Chatto]

Yup, biggest problem is the fact we have so few flex-slots. My SB at this moment:

1 Dark Depths (not sure about this SB-slot)
1 Pithing Needle (not sure about this one either)
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Trinisphere
2 Seismic Assault
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Krosan Grip

It's tight as it is, but I'm willing to keep an open mind. I have my doubts and right now I wouldn't fit in NR, but if your results prove me wrong...

[Rampart]

So I finally got a chance to jam lands this week which went pretty well, 3-1 winning in the mirror, Bug Delver, and Grixis and losing to Bug Delver. Ghost quarter has really been over preforming for me as basically the 5 wasteland/Strip mine I have been thinking of cutting the 4th port and jamming a second Ghost quarter. What are people thoughts on this?

[snurly]

I'm playing 4 Ghost Quarter instead of Ports on modo cause I can't justify the cost of Ports right now, and it's terrible. The deck needs Ports to be competitive.

[Rampart]

I'm playing 4 Ghost Quarter instead of Ports on modo cause I can't justify the cost of Ports right now, and it's terrible. The deck needs Ports to be competitive.

I'm not talking about a budget build. Just a swap of one port for another quarter. Basically is a second strip effect better then the utility of the 4th port

[lavafrogg]

I'm not talking about a budget build. Just a swap of one port for another quarter. Basically is a second strip effect better then the utility of the 4th port

Ports are better in the harder matchups, ie miracles and Omnitel. In matchups where quarter is better, isn't the deck favored anyways?

[Rampart]

Ports are better in the harder matchups, ie miracles and Omnitel. In matchups where quarter is better, isn't the deck favored anyways?

quarter makes miracles pretty easy because you can actually strip the white out of the deck and force shuffles but is strictly worse the port in omnitell match

Your probably right though

[n0ct3m89]

Just a small point, but ghost quarter does not force a shuffle. Yes it becomes strip mine, but if the opp doesn't search they don't shuffle.

[Rampart]

Just a small point, but ghost quarter does not force a shuffle. Yes it becomes strip mine, but if the opp doesn't search they don't shuffle.

I am aware but didn't feel like writing out all the permutations of board states on my cell phone.

[lavafrogg]

quarter makes miracles pretty easy because you can actually strip the white out of the deck and force shuffles but is strictly worse the port in omnitell match

Your probably right though

The ports are 4x to draw early to slow them down and keep them off of a color, the quarter is to lock them off of white if they annoy get counterbalance going.

I feel like you need the ports for the quarter to be effective.

[snurly]

Although I personally don't run any quarters, I can't say they are not decent. If you want to run it, ports are not the land to remove.

Set of wastelands and ports are sacred.

[barcode]

I was not impressed with Ghost Quarter. It's great in the old grindy Sultai Lands with Crucible of Worlds and Academy Ruins but with R/G decks the only way to recur the Ghost Quarter is Life from the Loam (unless you're some kind of sicko playing Crucible in R/G). Dredging for Ghost Quarter just isn't high impact enough. The decks playing basic lands these days play a lot of them and the decks not playing basic lands we already have a great matchup against with Wasteland and Port.

There were times when Ghost Quarter was good but there are more impactful cards to be playing in its place.

[StinkmothNexus]

I have to agree concerning ghost quarter. Its rare that its the card I wanted to grab when it ends up in my hand.

So, I am very impressed with Primeval Titan. I think it could pair really well with Yavimaya Hollow. Yavimaya Hollow can regenerate a creature for one green mana. If Loam tosses Primeval Titan to the graveyard, you can pop him back onto the battlefield for one green, then grab two lands. Its almost like a crop rotation if done at instant speed. Thoughts?

[Dice_Box]

I have to agree concerning ghost quarter. Its rare that its the card I wanted to grab when it ends up in my hand.

So, I am very impressed with Primeval Titan. I think it could pair really well with Yavimaya Hollow. Yavimaya Hollow can regenerate a creature for one green mana. If Loam tosses Primeval Titan to the graveyard, you can pop him back onto the battlefield for one green, then grab two lands. Its almost like a crop rotation if done at instant speed. Thoughts?

Um... that is not how regeneration works...

[Chatto]

I was not impressed with Ghost Quarter. It's great in the old grindy Sultai Lands with Crucible of Worlds and Academy Ruins but with R/G decks the only way to recur the Ghost Quarter is Life from the Loam (unless you're some kind of sicko playing Crucible in R/G). Dredging for Ghost Quarter just isn't high impact enough. The decks playing basic lands these days play a lot of them and the decks not playing basic lands we already have a great matchup against with Wasteland and Port.

There were times when Ghost Quarter was good but there are more impactful cards to be playing in its place.

I like Ghost Quarter. I consider it to be the fifth Wasteland. At times P-Needle will get your Wasteland, you can rely on Ghost Quarter to get that one utility-land or dualland. Destroying a basic land is a nice bonus. It can also grab your one basic Forest.


Stuff

That would be cool, but does not work.

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

I have to agree concerning ghost quarter. Its rare that its the card I wanted to grab when it ends up in my hand.

So, I am very impressed with Primeval Titan. I think it could pair really well with Yavimaya Hollow. Yavimaya Hollow can regenerate a creature for one green mana. If Loam tosses Primeval Titan to the graveyard, you can pop him back onto the battlefield for one green, then grab two lands. Its almost like a crop rotation if done at instant speed. Thoughts?

What?!?

[lavafrogg]

I don't think someone knows how regenerate works.

A creature has to be on the battlefield to be regenerated, it cannot simply be dredged. Also, if you regenerate a Titan it never leaves play, so you don't get the lands.

If you were playing black, you could add entomb over gamble and run a reanimate package out of the board. I have seen people try that.

That being said, you could splash black for volraths stronghold and any number of utility creatures. If you grabbed stronghold and a land that lets you sacrifice like high market, you would be able to achieve close to what you are talking about.

[StinkmothNexus]

I don't think someone knows how regenerate works.

A creature has to be on the battlefield to be regenerated, it cannot simply be dredged. Also, if you regenerate a Titan it never leaves play, so you don't get the lands.

If you were playing black, you could add entomb over gamble and run a reanimate package out of the board. I have seen people try that.

That being said, you could splash black for volraths stronghold and any number of utility creatures. If you grabbed stronghold and a land that lets you sacrifice like high market, you would be able to achieve close to what you are talking about.

Ahh. Mah bad. Thanks for the correction.

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

Also, you cannot regenerate a sacrificed creature FYI. I remember even screwing that up back in the day. Don't feel bad lol.

[Admiral_Arzar]

That being said, you could splash black for volraths stronghold and any number of utility creatures. If you grabbed stronghold and a land that lets you sacrifice like high market, you would be able to achieve close to what you are talking about.

A few years ago (pre-Thespian's Stage) I ran a small GSZ package (Veteran Explorer, E-Witness, Titan, etc.) in lands and did modestly well. The win condition was Scapeshift though which is probably outside the scope of this thread. I don't remember if I ran black for Stronghold or not, but it would have made sense.

[lavafrogg]

We have a much better win condition now.

[Dice_Box]

We have a much better win condition now.

Here here.

[Chatto]

(...)If you were playing black, you could add entomb over gamble and run a reanimate package out of the board. I have seen people try that.

That being said, you could splash black for volraths stronghold and any number of utility creatures. If you grabbed stronghold and a land that lets you sacrifice like high market, you would be able to achieve close to what you are talking about.


A few years ago (pre-Thespian's Stage) I ran a small GSZ package (Veteran Explorer, E-Witness, Titan, etc.) in lands and did modestly well. The win condition was Scapeshift though which is probably outside the scope of this thread. I don't remember if I ran black for Stronghold or not, but it would have made sense.

He was merely recalling something he played years ago, offering an example. I think Admiral_Arzar (and everyone else for that matter) is well aware of our superior Wincon :smile:

[Crimhead]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=85807

Another top8 for Lands!

Only two K-grips in the siepsde, but three Seals of Primordium. Is Thai texk against Blood Moon? Play it off a dual land and activate it later without needed a Mox or Forest? Otherwise an interesting list. Karakas main, along with Quarter, Bog, and Canopy. Running only three fetches, one Ticket, and there PFires to make space I guess. Only the four Spheres, plus a Chalice and a Needle.

[Tokugawa]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=85807

Another top8 for Lands!

Only two K-grips in the siepsde, but three Seals of Primordium. Is Thai texk against Blood Moon? Play it off a dual land and activate it later without needed a Mox or Forest? Otherwise an interesting list. Karakas main, along with Quarter, Bog, and Canopy. Running only three fetches, one Ticket, and there PFires to make space I guess. Only the four Spheres, plus a Chalice and a Needle.
Seals are for ambushing Omniscience.

[Dice_Box]

It also combos well with Manabond if you run them together.

[Darkgobs]

Seals are for ambushing Omniscience.

Why not. But still, it seems weaker than Krosan Grip to me, even against Omniscience: If they S&T into Omni, it doesn't matter at all that you have Krosan in hand or Seal in play via S&T: both are not counterable, but at least, K-Grip has split second which can avoid the guys to go for the full instant combo via Wish into Firemind's Foresight for example. And against Miracle, K-Grip is just much better, especially because a 2CMC is easily counterable.
I mean, GG to this guys for the sweet achievement, but definetly, you guys shouldn't go for Primeordial Seal if you don't allready play the K-Grip playset (imho)!

[Rampart]

Why not. But still, it seems weaker than Krosan Grip to me, even against Omniscience: If they S&T into Omni, it doesn't matter at all that you have Krosan in hand or Seal in play via S&T: both are not counterable, but at least, K-Grip has split second which can avoid the guys to go for the full instant combo via Wish into Firemind's Foresight for example. And against Miracle, K-Grip is just much better, especially because a 2CMC is easily counterable.
I mean, GG to this guys for the sweet achievement, but definetly, you guys shouldn't go for Primeordial Seal if you don't allready play the K-Grip playset (imho)!

In the omniscience match-up you need to hold your lands up for that for Grip AKA not using ports so Grip and Ports conflict post sideboard a lot of the time.

Seals are worse in the Miracle match up for sure but if you practice the match-up you can play under the Counter Top lock reasonably well if you can't stick a Seal early.

Seal is fine if you want a proactive take on the match ups - I don't think i would run them, maybe one misers copy isn't a bad idea.

[Crimhead]

Thanks guys!

[Chatto]

Came across this MU between Takano Shigeki(MUD Post) and Takahashi Tetsuhiro(Lands) (https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL-HjF9Jl-4X07sEvQ5sV-4gNsH4W2Zpiw&v=ZIVjIY2hq68), the link taking you to the first game of three.

And even better: this MU between Matsuo Yoshiyuki(Lands) and Saitou Nobuo(Omni-Tell) (https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL-HjF9Jl-4X07sEvQ5sV-4gNsH4W2Zpiw&params=OAFIAVgP&v=9Th6dOZHRD4&mode=NORMAL) (again, link to first game). I personally think it's SnT splashing Omniscience, though.


Enjoy.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Haha, there is a MUD player at my local shop and every single game feels like it goes like that first video.

[Varal]

Why not. But still, it seems weaker than Krosan Grip to me, even against Omniscience: If they S&T into Omni, it doesn't matter at all that you have Krosan in hand or Seal in play via S&T: both are not counterable, but at least, K-Grip has split second which can avoid the guys to go for the full instant combo via Wish into Firemind's Foresight for example. And against Miracle, K-Grip is just much better, especially because a 2CMC is easily counterable.
I mean, GG to this guys for the sweet achievement, but definetly, you guys shouldn't go for Primeordial Seal if you don't allready play the K-Grip playset (imho)!

If you've some Spheres they'll have a really tough time to combo at instant speed. Sure they can hardcast Emrakul but Krosan Grip doesn't prevent it either and luckily, the deck can frequently survive against an hardcast Emrakul especially if you destroy Omniscience.

[Darkgobs]

If you've some Spheres they'll have a really tough time to combo at instant speed. Sure they can hardcast Emrakul but Krosan Grip doesn't prevent it either and luckily, the deck can frequently survive against an hardcast Emrakul especially if you destroy Omniscience.

So... aren't we saying the same thing? Against instand speed combo with Omniscience, K-Grip is better than Seal. Against Emrakul hardcasted it almost doesn't change anything (K-Grip still beeing better, cuz they can Trickbind your Seal, while they can't do anything against K-Grip). So what's your point exactly?

[lavafrogg]

Is anyone else finding that this decks combo matchup is not as nearly bad as it should be? Reanimator/Elves is a favorable matchup, storm seems to be a straight race and show and tell is also just a race most of the time. They have to have the counter for the gamble/crop rotation/sphere and also hope we don't draw/loan into the combo naturally while also finding their own combo pieces.

I am not saying Omnitel/storm are easy matchups by any means, I just thought they would be harder pre and post board.

That being said I would play more manabonds and the 4th depths if I thought combo was a heavy presence and I still wanted to play lands.

[Dice_Box]

I am a fucking lucksack against Storm. Since they have only bounce spells and no counters, you can drop a lock early and force them to dig in a manner that is preferable to your game plan then theirs. (They are looking for answers and shuffling away kills) Against anything with counters who knows what the hell they are doing though, I find they cause issues. Unless your looking at a first turn Lock piece or dropping something though SnT they have an advantage on you. Even then, they have an advantage on you.

I feel like the price of Tabernacle really does a kind of dual edged effect on the deck. Only the really dedicated play this and only the really dedicated test against it. The price if the Tabernacle keeps the player count low and as an effect keeps our "Unknown" factor high. At the end of the day though, this I feel is changing as we keep doing well.

[Darkgobs]

Is anyone else finding that this decks combo matchup is not as nearly bad as it should be? Reanimator/Elves is a favorable matchup, storm seems to be a straight race and show and tell is also just a race most of the time. They have to have the counter for the gamble/crop rotation/sphere and also hope we don't draw/loan into the combo naturally while also finding their own combo pieces.

I am not saying Omnitel/storm are easy matchups by any means, I just thought they would be harder pre and post board.

That being said I would play more manabonds and the 4th depths if I thought combo was a heavy presence and I still wanted to play lands.

I'm glad that someone else thinks that combo match-ups aren't that impossible for us.
I'd say that Reanimator is favored, but their countermagic can fuck our Crop-into-Bojuka plan up. Karakas (especially) and Maze are a true blessing, but Tidespout Tyrant can caught you off-guard. Overall, I'd say it's not favoured; it's balanced.
Against elfe, the Crop-into-Tabernacle is the win-plan, but on the other hand, they run the only card that directly counter Tabernacle : Gaea's Cradle. They also have a lot of mana-producer elves, which, if in play, can make the Tabernacle not that amazing. Chasm can also be overpassed by Deathrite with multiples activations. It depends also a lot of the list their playing: with or without Scavenging Ooze? You have to be quick, because they can kill you T3-T4 quite often. As you said, it's a race.
Against storm.deck and OmniTell, pre-board it's about winning the dice / comboing really quick. Post-board, it's about taxing effect followed by asap-combo. Sphere T1-T2 is the best play you can pull (ok, T1 manabound into full combo + enough mana for T1 activation is nice too :tongue:).

Overall, I would say the most important things against combo are:
1) Reconize what you're playing against as quickly as possible, so that you can react approprietly (rush the combo plan, or mana-lock them until you can do it).
2) G2-G3 or if you know what you're up against G1, keep a good hand. Aggressives mulligan are really vital and often brought me 5-cards winning hand. Again, Sphere of Resistance are OP against almost all combo decks.

Combo (except Dredge) are really negative to fair Match-Ups, depending a lot of the combo faced and our openning hand. So the legends saying that Land is a bye for all combo decks is totally wrong. But let's be honest; it's not in our favor, and imho by no means positive (but maybe Elfe indeed ?).

[Chatto]

I don't like to play Combo, but with six Sphere-effects I would say it's a bit better.

@ Dice_Box: I see where you going at, but I have to comment: as we know, Tabernacle is on the reserve list, and will always be very very pricy. That being said, only us dedicated few will invest or have invested. Even if we/ the deck will perform above average there will still be very few players of this deck. In a fair meta we will always have chance, because noone will dedicate slots in the SB, unless it's in their colors/ there will be a new sort Tabernacle printed (which will never happen)

[Darkgobs]

@ Dice_Box: I see where you going at, but I have to comment: as we know, Tabernacle is on the reserve list, and will always be very very pricy. That being said, only us dedicated few will invest or have invested. Even if we/ the deck will perform above average there will still be very few players of this deck. In a fair meta we will always have chance, because noone will dedicate slots in the SB, unless it's in their colors/ there will be a new sort Tabernacle printed (which will never happen)

Agree. But at the same time, we are not playing 3 Underground Sea... which is about the same amount of money as 1 Tabernacle is. If players have money to buy a BUG or an ANT, they also have money for land. The only thing beeing that Tabernacle is indeed only played in Land.deck.

[lavafrogg]

Anyone have luck with multiple coursers against grave hate? Helps you cut through the crap and always know when business is on the top of your library?

[Alexeezay]

Played this sb in a small tournament yesterday:

1 Bojuka Bog (Karakas main)
2 Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 Choke
2 Trinisphere
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Krosan Grip

Maindeck was David Long's list -1 Crop Rot. +1 Ghost Quarter.
4 Rounds: beat Jund, Grixis Control, Show and Tell, Burn.

Got to fiddle around with Titania a bit...and she's not that great unfortunately. I played vs decks like Grixis or Canadian & she folds to Lightning Bolt.
The only time you can savely play her is with a Karakas up. I mean when you have a fetchland to get back it's obviously still awesome since you get the 5/5 token trigger no matter what. Note: that is when they don't respond to Titania's first trigger which most people WILL forget.
But...I think I'd rather have P.Titan or Garruk Primal Hunter vs Miracles.
Maybe 1 Boseiju / 1 Primeval Titan in that slot. Otherwise this sideboard feels very nice, Trinisphere is great.

[Crimhead]

Agree. But at the same time, we are not playing 3 Underground Sea... which is about the same amount of money as 1 Tabernacle is. If players have money to buy a BUG or an ANT, they also have money for land. The only thing beeing that Tabernacle is indeed only played in Land.deck.
Yes, but lots of players have U.Seas they bought for $15.00. Seas are abundant and can readily be gotten locally. One can even use traders or store credit at a LGS. The deck also has a narrow appeal, so not everybody wants to play it in the first place.

We are very lucky, though. People may be wanting to test the match, to prepare that way, but they are going to hard pressed to alter their card and/or deck selection based on a match they are likely to dodge. No matter how strong or well positioned the deck is, we will never be public enemy number one.

I'm sleaving up r/g for the first time this afternoon, wish me luck!

[Lio]

Hi guys, I have all pieces for the Lands decks except the Tabernacle. Luckily I've sold my playset of U.Sea so I can buy one. I've been playing HexmageDepths until now and I love killing with 20/20 as well as ruining my opponent's game (my 2nd deck is DnT). Lands fuses both parts together. Question is: is the lands deck worth playing in meta full of delvers, stoneblades, lot of miracles and significant amount of combo decks? What is the plan against Miracles and how is the matchup? It's a deck I am most concerned with.

[barcode]

Question is: is the lands deck worth playing in meta full of delvers, stoneblades, lot of miracles and significant amount of combo decks? What is the plan against Miracles and how is the matchup? It's a deck I am most concerned with.

Delver and stoneblade are great matchups. Miracles is fine so long as you don't get stuck behind Jace or a counterbalance with top and a 2 CMC card floating. Combo is beatable but not pleasant.

My plan against Miracles is to play the mana denial game with Rishadan Port and try to sneak a Choke into play. Use Krosan Grip to blow up Counterbalance and leave some number of Punishing Fire to kill their creatures and Jace. Primeval Titan also comes in (I'm considering a s/b Cavern of Souls).

[Chatto]

@ Lio: (almost everything) what barcode said, depending on which type of Miracles I also board Sphere-effects in.

@ barcode: regarding P-time and CoS: wouldn't Boseiju be easier vs. Miracles? Only one SB-slot, instead of two. Granted, P-time is also damage.

@ Crimhead: welcome and good luck!

[barcode]

@ barcode: regarding P-time and CoS: wouldn't Boseiju be easier vs. Miracles? Only one SB-slot, instead of two. Granted, P-time is also damage.

I already play Primeval Titan. For me Cavern would be the same as Boseiju. Boseiju suffers the same problem as many other sideboard cards people want which rely on the graveyard: They are hosed by Relic of Progenitus and Rest in Peace.

edit: I understand Boseiju can be useful to REALLY make sure that K-Grip is uncountered but you have to get a really savvy Miracles player to leave a 3 on top all the time. I worry that paying 2 life every time for Loam is really bad value.

[Chatto]

I already play Primeval Titan. For me Cavern would be the same as Boseiju. Boseiju suffers the same problem as many other sideboard cards people want which rely on the graveyard: They are hosed by Relic of Progenitus and Rest in Peace.

edit: I understand Boseiju can be useful to REALLY make sure that K-Grip is uncountered but you have to get a really savvy Miracles player to leave a 3 on top all the time. I worry that paying 2 life every time for Loam is really bad value.

Well, this makes sense, both your choice and your given scenario. However, you could of course bait the Miracles-player (unless he's really savvy 😄), then play K-Grip.

[Darkgobs]

[...]
depending on which type of Miracles I also board Sphere-effects in.
[...]


Could you tell us a bit more about that please?

[Chatto]

Could you tell us a bit more about that please?


Instead of bringing it to you straight, I would recommand start reading this article (http://www.mtgcanada.com/legacy/comparing-miracles/).

As you can read, both versions are light on lands (the Ponder-version also being light on creatures), so attacking their manabase seems reasonable. Filtering for land usually means searching for lands (21-23), so Wasteland, Port, and Quarter, together with Sphere-effects (and Choke) can do the trick. All in all, it's a hard MU, but I found this being a strategy I can live with.

I must admit that I do not check the Miracles-thread on a daily basis, and so don't know how much of this is still relevant.

EDIT: I understand there is more to it than just attacking their lands 😊

[Darkgobs]

@ Chatto: thank you for your answer and the article! =)

[GrimoirePath]

Hey everyone! Ive been reading this forum for a while and finally signed up to post. I built R/G lands with lots of proxies along the way, and have read the lions share of this thread in the process.

I grabbed this bad boy two weeks ago just in time to play at SCG Indy:

http://imgur.com/zQWUYT2

Anyone else playing in Indianapolis this weekend (june 21st)? My build is pretty close to the list David Long played, and my big lack is more sphere effects for the sideboard. Id like a trinisphere, but a local MUD player just bought them up, and I dont have time to get anything shipped to me at this point. Ah well.

Ill post a tourney report when I get home from the event.

[Chatto]

Hey everyone! Ive been reading this forum for a while and finally signed up to post. I built R/G lands with lots of proxies along the way, and have read the lions share of this thread in the process.

I grabbed this bad boy two weeks ago just in time to play at SCG Indy:

http://imgur.com/zQWUYT2

Anyone else playing in Indianapolis this weekend (june 21st)? My build is pretty close to the list David Long played, and my big lack is more sphere effects for the sideboard. Id like a trinisphere, but a local MUD player just bought them up, and I dont have time to get anything shipped to me at this point. Ah well.

Ill post a tourney report when I get home from the event.


Hi GrimoirePath, welcome! I seem to have problems seeing your picture, but if I should guess: it's a Tabernacle? :smile:

Talking about MUD: yesterday I had a little get-together with friends, playtesting for GP Lille. So I was playing against MUD, and got my ass kicked... G1: Chalice on two, G2: Blood Moon... I also made a HUGE mistake by not using Ghost Quarter on my OWN land, leaving me with K-Grip in my hand... Just one of those days...

[GrimoirePath]

It is indeed a picture of my Tabernacle. English, good shape, and under five hundred bucks. I played my deck without it at a twelve person LGS tourney, and saw several games where it would have been so choice (games i lost). Im super stoked to finally have the capstone to the deck.

Do you ever try boarding in boseiju against mud for the chalice on two?

[Dice_Box]

I have not done that no, but as a play I can see the advantage. I think if you did that though the line would be that you would Dredge until you have three targets you need (or some number of Wasteland) and then use it then. I would not want to play 2 life against MUD without really getting the max I can put of the deal. They can hit hard.

I feel overall though, I think I am going to go back to the EE main with Ruins I was playing a couple of months back. Buried Ruins this time. I think it's a great balance against some of the harder matches and it opens up some sideboard options.

[DML]

I have not done that no, but as a play I can see the advantage. I think if you did that though the line would be that you would Dredge until you have three targets you need (or some number of Wasteland) and then use it then. I would not want to play 2 life against MUD without really getting the max I can put of the deal. They can hit hard.

I feel overall though, I think I am going to go back to the EE main with Ruins I was playing a couple of months back. Buried Ruins this time. I think it's a great balance against some of the harder matches and it opens up some sideboard options.

Hi Dice, Would you mind sharing that decklist? Really interested in all kinds of R/G Lands decklists =)

Can't get enough of this awesome legacy deck :D

[Dice_Box]

Hi Dice, Would you mind sharing that decklist? Really interested in all kinds of R/G Lands decklists =)

Can't get enough of this awesome legacy deck :D

Last time I ran the artifact build I ran this:


Instants [8]
4 Crop Rotation
4 Punishing Fire

Sorceries [8]
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam

Enchantments [4]
4 Exploration

Artifacts [6]
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb
4 Mox Diamond

Lands [34]
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Maze of Ith
2 Taiga
3 Dark Depths
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Rishadan Port
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Krosan Grip
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Choke
1 Primeval Titan

This time I am going to drop the Blue, add in Buried Ruins and likely running my current Sideboard. I am just testing things out, I really do not like running the deck without Manabond so its kind of a take it or leave it situation. Will see how it goes.

[barcode]

I've posted before that I've had 2 Primeval Titans in my sideboard and I cut them today plus the second Chalice of the Void to try out three Goblin Rabblemaster.

The Rabblemasters were merely okay. They do provide a threat which is capable of ending the game all on their own fairly quickly (one damage then six, then eight, then ten.) but it's pretty fragile. It doesn't necessarily provide the "over the top" threat like Primeval Titan is. However, Rabblemaster costs three mana, not six.

I continue to have trouble with Omnishow.

[autonom]

Why isnt Ghost Quarter played in RG lands?

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Plenty of people play it, especially when miracles is popular.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/294509#online

Here is a recent list, in this case it looks like he cut a fetch/taiga for it which is fairly normal. Some people would probably choose to move bojuka bog or karakas to the side instead but it's all just tweaking your lands until you are comfortable. I like having access to my bullets game one since I'm a forgetful idiot who crop rotates for cards that are in my board so I rarely move things like that to the side and instead find room elsewhere.

[Chatto]

I've posted before that I've had 2 Primeval Titans in my sideboard and I cut them today plus the second Chalice of the Void to try out three Goblin Rabblemaster.

The Rabblemasters were merely okay. They do provide a threat which is capable of ending the game all on their own fairly quickly (one damage then six, then eight, then ten.) but it's pretty fragile. It doesn't necessarily provide the "over the top" threat like Primeval Titan is. However, Rabblemaster costs three mana, not six.

I continue to have trouble with Omnishow.

Tried Rabblemaster a couple of months ago, but found it's aggresive 'must attack'-clausule in conflict with the whole deck.

I have six Sphere-effects and tested against Omnitell: only taxing will do so much. You really need a fast clock. Rabblemaster in theory should work alongside them, never tested that idea.

[barcode]

Tried Rabblemaster a couple of months ago, but found it's aggresive 'must attack'-clausule in conflict with the whole deck.

I have six Sphere-effects and tested against Omnitell: only taxing will do so much. You really need a fast clock. Rabblemaster in theory should work alongside them, never tested that idea.

I added REBs to the board (1 to start, now 2) but I might just change them to Trinispheres. They have more application across matchups, I think.

Rabblemaster is pretty fast and I was able to use it to crush the mirror.

[GrimoirePath]

Got my butt kicked with RG lands in Indy on sunday. I accept full responsibility for shitty play. I just need to run the deck a LOT more against various archetypes to know what my strategy should be in each game. I found punishing fire to be kind of in the way in a lot of hands, but thats likely just due to what i played against.

I need to know when to race for Lage and when to establish a prison. I also need to more proactively seek G. chasm.

[Whitefaces]

I added REBs to the board (1 to start, now 2) but I might just change them to Trinispheres. They have more application across matchups, I think.

Rabblemaster is pretty fast and I was able to use it to crush the mirror.

I think the best SB plan for Omni is Trinisphere + Choke. Don't play either of them until they go for a Show and Tell. When they SnT, put in Trinisphere. Unless they're at 6 mana (unlikely due to ports etc) they have to pass the turn. You can then play Choke without fear of FoW thanks to 3sphere. This should lock them out.

Sometimes they probe you and see this plan, but it buys you a lot of time in that case then as they have to get to 6 mana.

[Dice_Box]

Why isnt Ghost Quarter played in RG lands?
Space and a meta shift.

Ran my Frankenstein build tonight, EE was not bad, but I think Manabond would have been better in its place. Going to look and see what I can do.

[Whitefaces]

Space and a meta shift.

It's really important for the Miracles matchup, I'd go to 61 cards before cutting it.

[Chatto]

Space and a meta shift.

Ran my Frankenstein build tonight, EE was not bad, but I think Manabond would have been better in its place. Going to look and see what I can do.

So what were your observations? I would be inclined to think you could only do EE for two, unless having access to Mox D.

[Dice_Box]

So what were your observations? I would be inclined to think you could only do EE for two, unless having access to Mox D.

More or less the truth of it. Against Patriot it was fine. Dropped it on 0 and took out a Germ, then Fired the Sfm. Against DnT it proved to be both shockingly good and heartbreaking. I played the match twice. Got it online fast game on match one, Thalia and Sfm be gone. Game 3 it took out RIP. The next match I almost had it online, but it just took too much mana to pull it, play it and fire it.

Most of the time, Punishing is better. Against non creature permanents it has a good effect, but normally nothing a Grip can't fix. It's also bound to never be on one because once your firing it, you can't afford to lose your Exploration. In that case it will be a min of 7 mana to trigger. (3 for Ruins, 2 to play, 2 to fire)

I like Buried Ruins as a card. Let's you Dredge into Spheres and dig them up. Let's you play Orb too. I just really can not justify it without Intuition though. Grabbing a Loam, a Ruins and a target is just so much more effective then praying the stars align. Also, having to Loam it back each time you want to use it stinks. I mean it's doable, but not fun

I think I felt like this the last time I tried this, but that was with Academy and I found having to draw the card to be the real deal breaker. This time, I got the target right away but it's mana cost made that prohibitive to make full use of. I am thinking over my options but as I write this post I am really starting to think that EE, as great as it is, really is not made for this build of Lands.

Edit:
I think as I look back, if you want to make Ruins work, you need Manabond. The increase in mana means you can pop it in the opponents turn. Also, the coloured mana investment becomes prohibitive as well really pushing for a more Fetch heavy, Bond build to make it work. Basically a fairly major base redesign of the foundations of the deck. It's even possible, it's just done better in RUG.

[Zombie]

Can someone explain to me why Ravine doesn't see play?

Rabblemaster was considered, and they both deal 15 in three turns and but Ravine is harder to answer, easier to find, uncounterable and recurrable. Just too expensive?

[barcode]

Can someone explain to me why Ravine doesn't see play?

Rabblemaster was considered, and they both deal 15 in three turns and but Ravine is harder to answer, easier to find, uncounterable and recurrable. Just too expensive?

I had Raging Ravine in my sideboard for a tournament and never wanted to bring it in.

The plus for Goblin Rabblemaster is that it costs only 3 and once that mana investment is paid once you have recurring value. In post-board games you may want to leave mana open for Krosan Grip or Red Elemental Blast.

It's possible that if you're playing Zuran Orb to protect the Ravine from Swords to Plowshares it might be better late game but I played Rabblemaster for the explicit purpose of closing out games as soon as possible.

[Zombie]

Fair enough, suspected as much.

[Chatto]

Guys, I'm planning to take this list to GP Lille next week:

Spells (16)
4 Crop Rotation.
4 Punishing Fire.
4 Life from the Loam.
4 Gamble.

Other Spells (10)
2 Manabond.
4 Exploration.
4 Mox Diamond.

Lands (34)
1 Forest.
1 Karakas.
1 Ghost Quarter.
1 Glacial Chasm.
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.
1 Verdant Catacombs.
1 Windswept Heath.
1 Wooded Foothills.
1 Horizon Canopy.
1 Tranquil Thicket.
2 Taiga.
3 Maze of Ith.
3 Dark Depths.
4 Rishadan Port.
4 Wasteland.
4 Thespian's Stage.
4 Grove of the Burnwillows.

Sideboard (15)
1 Bojuka Bog.
2 Choke.
2 Trinisphere.
2 Seismic Assault.
4 Sphere of Resistance.
4 Krosan Grip.

Pretty standard, still some cards I'm not sure about.

For instance, I like to include Boseiju in my 75. I was thinking something like -1 Choke/ +1 Boseiju.

I like the Assaults, because I think we're going to see a lot of Blood Moon. But do I need two? Or should I go -1 Assault/ +1 Boseiju?

Last question: P-Titan... A worthy inclusion or a tad too much?

Your ideas or suggestions are much appreciated.

[barcode]

I do not like Seismic Assault, especially with you having only thirteen red sources. You're going to see more Miracles and Show & Tell than Blood Moon so tailoring your sideboard with that in mind seems more appropriate than playing a card which in the face of graveyard hate is "draw a card, shock you, go."

Primeval Titan is a great win condition that doesn't use the graveyard. The problem is that it costs six mana and sometimes you just can't get to six mana before the game has been decided. That's why I'm trying out Goblin Rabblemaster - I found that I had titan rotting in my hand a lot alongside sideboard cards. If you can get to six mana and resolve a titan you're probably going to win.

[Zombie]

I do not like Seismic Assault, especially with you having only thirteen red sources. You're going to see more Miracles and Show & Tell than Blood Moon so tailoring your sideboard with that in mind seems more appropriate than playing a card which in the face of graveyard hate is "draw a card, shock you, go."

Primeval Titan is a great win condition that doesn't use the graveyard. The problem is that it costs six mana and sometimes you just can't get to six mana before the game has been decided. That's why I'm trying out Goblin Rabblemaster - I found that I had titan rotting in my hand a lot alongside sideboard cards. If you can get to six mana and resolve a titan you're probably going to win.

Dryad Arbor/Khalni Garden, NO, Titan?

[Chatto]

I do not like Seismic Assault, especially with you having only thirteen red sources. You're going to see more Miracles and Show & Tell than Blood Moon so tailoring your sideboard with that in mind seems more appropriate than playing a card which in the face of graveyard hate is "draw a card, shock you, go."

Primeval Titan is a great win condition that doesn't use the graveyard. The problem is that it costs six mana and sometimes you just can't get to six mana before the game has been decided. That's why I'm trying out Goblin Rabblemaster - I found that I had titan rotting in my hand a lot alongside sideboard cards. If you can get to six mana and resolve a titan you're probably going to win.

I tried Rabblemaster as wel, but.... I don't know. Seems a bit late to test it now, but I will take him in consideration. If I was to run Rabblemaster, it would like this:

-2 Choke
-2 Assault
+1 Cavern of Souls
+3 Goblin Rabblemaster

Still, how would Boseiju fit in?


Dryad Arbor/Khalni Garden, NO, Titan?

Five or six dedicated slots is bit much. It could work, I think.

[barcode]

Dryad Arbor/Khalni Garden, NO, Titan?

If I'm going down the Natural Order rabbit hole I'm going for Progenitus, I think. :)

And I agree that several slots for NO is a little much. Might be better off going down the Jund Lands path for a reanimator sideboard plan if you're Going Big with Natural Order.

[DigitalPsycho]

I'm totaly new to Lands and i'm right now playing David Longs list.

My Question is in what matchups do i siedboard Emrakul in?

What are the cards you guys are siedboarding in and out the most?

[Rampart]

I'm totaly new to Lands and i'm right now playing David Longs list.

My Question is in what matchups do i siedboard Emrakul in?

What are the cards you guys are siedboarding in and out the most?

Omnitell, Sneak and Show, I guess you could make an arugment for any of the Grindstone decks.

Punishing Fire, Life from the Loam, Manabond, Maze of Ith, Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm, Bojuka Bog, etc. it really depends on what you are playing against.

[Ingo]

My Question is in what matchups do i siedboard Emrakul in?


Honestly, I wouldn't run Emrakul, as it won't help you much versus Omnitell. Pretty sure David Long intended it versus Painter (think he mentions it during his dechtech), as the matchup has cost him at least two matches during SCG-top8's. I don't suspect Painter to be represented a lot, in the current Miracles/Omnitell heavy environment.

[DigitalPsycho]

Honestly, I wouldn't run Emrakul, as it won't help you much versus Omnitell. Pretty sure David Long intended it versus Painter (think he mentions it during his dechtech), as the matchup has cost him at least two matches during SCG-top8's. I don't suspect Painter to be represented a lot, in the current Miracles/Omnitell heavy environment.

Thank you, i did not see that he did a deck tech. So its always 4xSphere of Resistance and 1-2 Thorn of Amethyst or Trinisphere, when do you guys play Thorn or Trinisphere?

[Ingo]

Here's the link (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/lands_with_david_long.html).

[Dice_Box]

Emmy was for Painter. It plays hell with their Combo. I am not a fan though since they can just beat you to death. I mean I did that many a time playing that deck.

[Chatto]

Who will be attending GP Lille as well?

[GrimoirePath]

Has anyone considered playtesting with Nissa, Vastwood Seer (http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/nissa-vastwood-seer-nissa-sage-animist/)?

[barcode]

Has anyone considered playtesting with Nissa, Vastwood Seer (http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/nissa-vastwood-seer-nissa-sage-animist/)?

I'm not super impressed by Nissa for Lands. I don't know what to cut for her. She doesn't do anything until you have 7 lands in play and I would think that if that condition has been met you have a good grasp on the game.

[Dice_Box]

Has anyone considered playtesting with Nissa, Vastwood Seer (http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/nissa-vastwood-seer-nissa-sage-animist/)?
What does she do that Primeval Titan does not do better?

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I think she is horrible in the context of Lands. Her creature side tutors up exactly a forest and her planeswalker side isn't impressive outside of standard. You don't need a conditional exploration effect if you've already made it to seven lands and a 4/4 sure isn't what I'm looking for to close out the game.

[GrimoirePath]

What does she do that Primeval Titan does not do better?

I guess only win con, in her ultimate providing six 6/6 creatures, which could theoretically help if your stage has been pithing needled, or if your token gets hit by Karakas, etc.

[GrimoirePath]

I think she is horrible in the context of Lands. Her creature side tutors up exactly a forest and her planeswalker side isn't impressive outside of standard. You don't need a conditional exploration effect if you've already made it to seven lands and a 4/4 sure isn't what I'm looking for to close out the game.

All true. I guess her added draw could help play additional lands should your grave have been hated away or your Loams extirpated or eaten by Deathrite. Her ultimate turns six of your lands into 6/6 creatures, which provides a more mighty swing than a 4/4.

[Dice_Box]

I guess only win con, in her ultimate providing six 6/6 creatures, which could theoretically help if your stage has been pithing needled, or if your token gets hit by Karakas, etc.

If you have Titan in, you should be sideboarded and ready to deal with Artifacts. Also Karakas on its own is no answer to this deck. A speed bump sure, but no answer.

[Chatto]

What does she do that Primeval Titan does not do better?

Give you multiple threats, next to draw cards (not only lands)... Big difference when comparing to P-Titan.

The reason you don't want her are imo:

1) comes into play as a 2/2 creature,
2) you need seven lands to morph her.

If she were a PW for cmc 3...

Still, I might proxy her (just for the sake if testing, you guys are of course right)

[supremePINEAPPLE]

All true. I guess her added draw could help play additional lands should your grave have been hated away or your Loams extirpated or eaten by Deathrite. Her ultimate turns six of your lands into 6/6 creatures, which provides a more mighty swing than a 4/4.Her ult is cool but I try not to evaluate walkers on their ultimate and this is a planeswalker that only starts ticking up from 3 after you've hit seven lands.

I'm still really bummed she isn't a wood elves in creature form. It would have made her so much cooler in legacy and modern.

[Whitefaces]

Hey guys,

I'm helping a friend test for Lille and am unsure on SBing plans for the Miracles (Ponder version) matchup. How effective is Sphere of Resistance and/or Trinisphere? I've been arguing 'not very', as the miracles plan is to land Top + CB and just make land drops. Neither sphere is very good vs this, but there are a number of easy cuts like Mazes, Glacial Chasm, Bog, Karakas (unsure), 2x Punishing Fire (4 main, unsure) and Karakas (unsure).

The MD is pretty stock.

SB is

4 Sphere of resistance
4 Krosan grip
3 Trinisphere
3 Choke
1 Boseiju

Any help is appreciated!

[Dice_Box]

Personally, the two best cards I feel we have against that deck are Port and Ghost Quarter. With a Ghost you can wipe them from the face of the earth. The follow up is Boseiju of you have it. Choke is strong as well since it limits their choices but I would not run 3. That to me feels like one to many. Lastly, Grip. Of good god grip. It they have Top and Ballance open, Cast a Loam first, let them rearrange the top of the Library and then Grip the CB in response to its tirgger. Do not blind shoot at the balance unless you have no choice or you know it will resolve.

The cuts are easy, as you have pointed out. It is not always a bad choice to leave yourself with a single Maze though. At times they will try and pull a rabbit out of a hat with a small amount of attackers. In this case, you can hold back the damage with a Crop Rotation if you need to. Double PF does the trick too if they can not counter it.

[Alexeezay]

I recommend you to keep in Bojuka Bog & Karakas. 99% of the matches vs Miracles go very long & Bog is Boss vs Snapcaster and Dig Through Time (well, Bog is at least better than Maze or Chasm).
Karakas bounces Cliques & Vensers and produces Mana. Helpful since you board out Mazes.
In my experience it's not worth it to board in Spheres vs Miracles. As I said, games go long & Spheres hinder your development as well while they can play an Island each turn and sit on a top (+ CB). Spheres are even worse without an Exploration.
Ghost Quarter I found to be quite nice, the shuffle effect messes up their Top a bit & they run out of Plains, sooner or later out of Island (this won't happen too often). Getting Ghost Quarter is awesome. I actually thought about boarding a 2nd Ghost Quarter since I'm not a fan of Boseiju.
Also I wouldn't cut Punishing Fire since Miracles moved to Monastery Mentor alongside Venser/Clique and it's still good vs Jace and the life total (they fetch a lot).

The thing is, you have enough stuff to bring in. 4 Krosan Grip, 3 Choke (in your case), Boseiju.
My Sb plays 2 Primeval Titan (which have been Seismic Assault, Titania, Garruk PH before)
+4 Krosan Grip +2 Choke +1 Bojuka Bog +2 Primeval Titan
-3 Maze of Ith -1 Glacial Chasm -1 Tabernacle -2 Manabond -2 Crop Rotation

[lavafrogg]

Lands took 9th and 12th at this weekend SCG. Decklists are both David Longs(one of them is David Long) and the sideboards are just geared to beat combo and 4 Krosan Grips.

[Dice_Box]

Thats good news. I love seeing this deck do well.

Also:
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/71/948/635711449337328559.png

Not great, but it is going into my deck until I cast it at least once because I want to, that's why.

[Whitefaces]

Personally, the two best cards I feel we have against that deck are Port and Ghost Quarter. With a Ghost you can wipe them from the face of the earth. The follow up is Boseiju of you have it. Choke is strong as well since it limits their choices but I would not run 3. That to me feels like one to many. Lastly, Grip. Of good god grip. It they have Top and Ballance open, Cast a Loam first, let them rearrange the top of the Library and then Grip the CB in response to its tirgger. Do not blind shoot at the balance unless you have no choice or you know it will resolve.

The cuts are easy, as you have pointed out. It is not always a bad choice to leave yourself with a single Maze though. At times they will try and pull a rabbit out of a hat with a small amount of attackers. In this case, you can hold back the damage with a Crop Rotation if you need to. Double PF does the trick too if they can not counter it.

I should point out I'm actually the one playing Miracles, he's taking Lands to Lille.

Absolutely agree! Porting white sources to shut off swords and EOT Marit Lage or GQ all their basics are the two lines to win long games.

The 3x Choke is actually mainly for the Omni matchup. We've come to the conclusion Trinisphere + Choke is probably the best way to fight them. Holding both in hand at the very least forces them to reach 6 mana if they know what you're up to with a probe, and keeping them off that should be OK with ports.

Yep, he always baits the CB with a loam or something. I float a 3 on top when I can in SB games, so it makes a very interesting sub games between the players, love it :smile:

I like the idea of leaving a Maze in actually, I'll suggest it.


I recommend you to keep in Bojuka Bog & Karakas. 99% of the matches vs Miracles go very long & Bog is Boss vs Snapcaster and Dig Through Time (well, Bog is at least better than Maze or Chasm).
Karakas bounces Cliques & Vensers and produces Mana. Helpful since you board out Mazes.
In my experience it's not worth it to board in Spheres vs Miracles. As I said, games go long & Spheres hinder your development as well while they can play an Island each turn and sit on a top (+ CB). Spheres are even worse without an Exploration.
Ghost Quarter I found to be quite nice, the shuffle effect messes up their Top a bit & they run out of Plains, sooner or later out of Island (this won't happen too often). Getting Ghost Quarter is awesome. I actually thought about boarding a 2nd Ghost Quarter since I'm not a fan of Boseiju.
Also I wouldn't cut Punishing Fire since Miracles moved to Monastery Mentor alongside Venser/Clique and it's still good vs Jace and the life total (they fetch a lot).

The thing is, you have enough stuff to bring in. 4 Krosan Grip, 3 Choke (in your case), Boseiju.
My Sb plays 2 Primeval Titan (which have been Seismic Assault, Titania, Garruk PH before)
+4 Krosan Grip +2 Choke +1 Bojuka Bog +2 Primeval Titan
-3 Maze of Ith -1 Glacial Chasm -1 Tabernacle -2 Manabond -2 Crop Rotation

Your arguments for Karakas and Bog make perfect sense. I'm playing the 4 Ponder version against him, so no Venser, but I do have Cliques. You can also save your Marit Lage :tongue:

I agree with your assessment of Spheres, they don't seem worth it at all. I've seen David Long bring them in vs Miracles a couple of times though, so wasn't sure.

It's just cutting 2 Punishing Fire, there are another 2 in the deck. Miracles doesn't really play any, or much GY hate. A Relic usually.

Seismic Assault is a beating vs Miracles, just not sure there's space in the SB to fit it. Pretty good vs Blood Moon too, but I'm not sure how many of those there will be at the GP.

What's the reasoning for cutting Manabond?

Cheers for the help!

[Alexeezay]

I guess you're right about Punishing Fire, at least if you know they don't have alot of creatures.
Note that if you play a Boseiju you want to leave in Crop Rotations obviously.

Manabond gets cut because you don't want to discard your Sideboard trumps in Choke, Krosan Grip, Primeval Titan/Seismic Assault or Crop Rotations that you might leave in.
I board out Manabond most of the time anyway, more so on the draw. It's just natural for me when I bring in Krosan Grips.

[Whitefaces]

I guess you're right about Punishing Fire, at least if you know they don't have alot of creatures.
Note that if you play a Boseiju you want to leave in Crop Rotations obviously.

Manabond gets cut because you don't want to discard your Sideboard trumps in Choke, Krosan Grip, Primeval Titan/Seismic Assault.
I board out Manabond most of the time anyway, more so on the draw. It's just natural for me when I bring in Krosan Grips.

Boseiju only works with Crop Rotation if you have Spheres. I think that's one of the best argument for having them, being able to force through Gambles and Crop Rotations.

Of course, makes sense to take them out.

[Alexeezay]

1) Can you guys show me your Boarding plan for the Omnitell Matchup?

2) What do you think of the 2nd Ghost Quarter (in place of sb Boseiju or Mb 4th Stage)?

[Dice_Box]

Omnishow? Hope//Pray.
Choke, 3shpere and Spheres off the back of SnT. It's not perfect but it's a plan.

I dropped the 4th stage long ago buy I would not drop it for a second Quarter. One is good, two I feel is a touch unnecessary. Boseiju sure but not Quarter.

[Alexeezay]

I know what to bring in for Omni, I was interested in your Board-Outs.

[Dice_Box]

I know what to bring in for Omni, I was interested in your Board-Outs.

1 Tabernacle, 3 Maze, 2 Wasteland, 1 Tranquil and 1 Bog

In.
2 Choke, 2 3shpere, 2 Sphere and 2 Grip.

[Rampart]

1 Tabernacle, 3 Maze, 2 Wasteland, 1 Tranquil and 1 Bog

In.
2 Choke, 2 3shpere, 2 Sphere and 2 Grip.

you keep in all your punishing fires?

[Whitefaces]

you keep in all your punishing fires?

I assume for Young Pyromancer, but not sure if you need all 4? It might just be better to leave the Tabernacle in and side out all the fires. Or leave in 2 fires, hard to tell.

[Dice_Box]

To be honest, I hate being swarmed. I guess I could cut two for the other Spheres. In hindsight I like that.

On reflection, I think I would cut only one. I sometimes have horrible luck with my Dredges and I do like having more Fires to hit.

[Rampart]

So if I am playing David Longs 9th place list from this weekend this is what I am doing

+4 Trinisphere
+3 Sphere of Resistance
+1 Choke
+4 Krosan Grip
+1 Dark Depths

-4 Punsihing Fire
-3 Maze of Ith
-2 Wasteland
-2 Life from the Loam
-1 Glacial Chasm
-1 Manabond

Here are my thoughts. You basically die in two ways.

1st: A resolved Show and Tell into whatever. Great players with Show and Tell into Omni into Omni and kill you with whatever sequence cards they have available. If you have a 3sphere you should hold it to place that off the S&T and hope to K-grip the Omni next turn or make Lage and race which is the why the move to the 4 3sphere in the most updated lists for this weekend. The show and tell line is what is what is going to kill you the most, like 80 present of the time and its really hard for this deck to interact with consistently. Cards like P-Fire, Loam, Wasteland don't have any impact here and they create more inconsistency with what your game plan is hence why they get trimmed or cut.

2nd: young Pyromancer if they bring it in. I don't think most Omni players won't bring this in because they show and tell plan is so good in this matchup and creature are notoriously bad against us but if they do you can race, 3sphere slows them down and Young doesn't doesn't interact with Marit Lage. I leave a Taberancle to hedge if this is there strategy with because with the 4 Gamble and 4 Crop rotation you can always find it if you need it and those cards have other applications in the match-up this maximizes what you game plan which is to disrupt and make a Lage token.

** this was edited to clarify some points.

[Dice_Box]

You know, it's only now I am starting to see how little I think about cutting Glacial Chasm. Humm. I might need to reflect on my style of play.

Thanks for the write up.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/level-one/mulligans-part-iii-constructed-2015-06-29

1 mana seismic assault that costs 1 red to activate. I'm not currently looking for that effect but I'm definitely trying this over seismic assault the next time I want to play with that style of card.

[Poron]

Have you seen this? now every land you hold is a Punishing Fire?...

It's like Loaming back PF

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/magic-origins/25442-molten-vortex

[Rampart]

I think it will help make Aggro Loam more playable. Not sure if it has a real home with this deck because it is so mana intensive. Its much better then Siesmic Assault for the people still playing that.

[Dice_Box]

Yep. Seen it. Like it. Adding it to the Primer in the next hour or two.

For those interested:
http://i.imgur.com/I0R0sgi.png


I think it will help make Aggro Loam more playable. Not sure if it has a real home with this deck because it is so mana intensive. Its much better then Siesmic Assault for the people still playing that.

The three red on Assault is prohibitive without Moon down. But if someone drops a Moon you have all the mana you need to feed this thing. Outside of that, it grants you a much easier and faster effect on the table. It might cost more over time yes, but its far far easier to get on the table and that is something I think will make all the difference here.

Edit:
I forgot to charge my laptop. Will edit tomorrow after I put my tax return in.

[barcode]

1) Can you guys show me your Boarding plan for the Omnitell Matchup?

2) What do you think of the 2nd Ghost Quarter (in place of sb Boseiju or Mb 4th Stage)?

-3 Maze of Ith
-1 Tabernacle
-4 Punishing Fire
-1 Glacial Chasm
-1 Wasteland
-1 Manabond (down to 0)
-1 Bojuka Bog
-1 Life from the Loam
-1 Dark Depths

+2 Red elemental blast
+4 sphere of resistance
+4 krosan grip
+3 goblin rabblemaster
+1 trinisphere

This is my current plan. I need to test more.

[Chatto]

I know what to bring in for Omni, I was interested in your Board-Outs.

Assuming M-Blue:

- 1 Tabernacle
- 1 Chasm
- 2 Waste
- 2 Bond
- 3 Maze
- 3 P-Fire

+ 2 Choke
+ 2 3sphere
+ 4 K-Grip
+ 4 SoR

[Sibelius]

Yep. Seen it. Like it. Adding it to the Primer in the next hour or two.

For those interested:
http://i.imgur.com/I0R0sgi.png



The three red on Assault is prohibitive without Moon down. But if someone drops a Moon you have all the mana you need to feed this thing. Outside of that, it grants you a much easier and faster effect on the table. It might cost more over time yes, but its far far easier to get on the table and that is something I think will make all the difference here.

Edit:
I forgot to charge my laptop. Will edit tomorrow after I put my tax return in.

Regarding Molten Vortex.

1. Getting it down early doesn't matter as you will only be boarding it in vs decks that intend to Bloodmoon.

2. If you do get it down early 4/10 of your Red sources give them life so the rate on this is significantly worse without Bloodmoon in play.

3. Seismic Assault costs 3. This is incredibly relevant when one of the 4 decks that can possibly bring Bloodmoon in vs us runs Counterbalance.

Remember Assault is a sideboard card and therefore this new effect has to better in respects to the board.

[gigapatrick]

On the topic of boarding against Omnitell:

Yesterday, I played against Omnitell in a little Legacy event. This is how I boarded:

-1 Tabernacle
-1 Glacial Chasm
-3 Maze of Ith
-3 Punishing Fire (playing thirty-five lands and three Fires instead of thirty-four lands and four Fires)
-3 Wasteland
-1 Life from the Loam
-2 Manabond (I think it is correct to board out Manabond in every matchup.)

+4 Krosan Grip
+4 Sphere of Resistance
+3 Chalice of the Void (played Chalice instead of Thorn or Trinisphere; still have mixed feelings about it)
+2 Choke
+1 Dark Depths (running three mainboard)

Lost the first game. Won the second with a first turn, uncountered Chalice on one. Lost the third game on a mull to five (although a combination of Krosan Grip in hand and a Karakas on board stalled the game long enough to give me a vain hope of winning).

In the future, I think I would only board in two Krosan Grip, since it really only slows the game. It isn't a lock or anything. Since he'd seen my hand with a Git Probe, my opponent simply kept cantripping until he found a second Omniscience to play off of the one he put on the battlefield with Show and Tell. Chalice was certainly awesome, but when I really wanted it to shine (against two Miracles matchups later in the tournament), it didn't. Choke I never saw, so I'm not certain how good it would have been.

In the same tournament, I faced a Painted Stone deck (winning the second game on the back of Chalice but still losing the match), and then two Miracles matchups, the first of which went to a draw after an overlong first game, and the second of which I conceded after winning the first game and losing the second with about ten minutes left for the third. I wanted to go home. I saw Chalice in all the boarded games in the two Miracles matchups, yet the boarded games were the ones I lost. I primarily chose Chalice over Thorn of Amethyst since I thought it had some application against Miracles, but it actually felt really lackluster. Will probably switch those to Trinispheres. Overall, a horrible room yesterday for Lands. Of the eight people there, two were playing Painted Stone, one was playing Storm, two were playing Miracles, one was on Omnitell, and the seventh was on Dreadstill. Ugh.

On Molten Vortex:

While I actually think it is better than Seismic Assault (costing one mana means it gets under Legacy's various counterspells a lot easier, and the one mana activation cost is almost a non-issue), I still think it doesn't warrant a space in the board for the simple fact that you don't want to board into graveyard-reliant cards when your opponent is at the same time boarding into graveyard-hate cards. Doing so just makes their boarding decisions better. Primeval Titan or Oracle of Mul Daya seem like much better choices, though of course they have little application against Blood Moon decks (which we're likely to lose against even with Molten Vortex or Seismic Assault). Hammer of Purphoros actually seems more viable too, since the sacrificed land turns into a creature that the opponent probably has to deal with instead of just two damage.

[Darkgobs]

On Molten Vortex:

We might want to give this card a try in the maindeck, as x1 or x2 (for testing). Pre-board it is great against Miracle, against DRS, against D&T, and even against Planeswalkers. It's also another wincon, or a piece of control, and can also work without Loam (especially against Miracle). Actually, it's great against almost every non-combo deck. Anyway, I want to try this card maindeck and I will do it.
Hence, my question for you guys is: what should we take out (x2) to play this in the 60/61 (assuming we're playing a DavidLong-esque list, without any color-splash)?

It would probably makes sense to go to "only" 3 P.fire. Could we try to take some Crop Rotation out (assuming we're playing 4)? Or even the Manabounds?

IN:
+ 2 Molten Vortex
OUT:
- 0/1/2 Manabound
- 0/1 Crop Rotation
- 0/1 Punishing Fire

(These are maindeck changes, I'm not talking about sideboarding here!)

What would be your in/out for this?

[Whitefaces]

On Molten Vortex:

We might want to give this card a try in the maindeck, as x1 or x2 (for testing). Pre-board it is great against Miracle, against DRS, against D&T, and even against Planeswalkers. It's also another wincon, or a piece of control, and can also work without Loam (especially against Miracle). Actually, it's great against almost every non-combo deck. Anyway, I want to try this card maindeck and I will do it.
Hence, my question for you guys is: what should we take out (x2) to play this in the 60/61 (assuming we're playing a DavidLong-esque list, without any color-splash)?

It would probably makes sense to go to "only" 3 P.fire. Could we try to take some Crop Rotation out (assuming we're playing 4)? Or even the Manabounds?

IN:
+ 2 Molten Vortex
OUT:
- 0/1/2 Manabound
- 0/1 Crop Rotation
- 0/1 Punishing Fire

(These are maindeck changes, I'm not talking about sideboarding here!)

What would be your in/out for this?

So is the deck you're playing, Molten Vortex seems unnecessary in fair matchups.

And as Sibelius pointed out earlier in the thread, vs miracles (which is the only 'fair' MU you remotely care about preboard) the 1CMC vs 3CMC is very relevant.

[Dice_Box]

I see it exclusively as a sideboard card that would be used in the same way Assault is. It's just also a touch more flexible thanks to its CMC. Against Miracles, I would rather other cards.

[MGB]

Seems like Miracles is actually a pretty good matchup for this deck if you play Trinisphere and Choke in the sideboard. I was watching David Long just man-handle a Miracles player the other day at the Premiere IQ with that combination. I was initially surprised to see him bring in the Trinispheres vs. Miracles as I pegged it purely as combo-hate, but it locks them out of the game in combination with Ports, Wastelands, and the Choke.

[l33twash0r]

Seems like Miracles is actually a pretty good matchup for this deck if you play Trinisphere and Choke in the sideboard. I was watching David Long just man-handle a Miracles player the other day at the Premiere IQ with that combination. I was initially surprised to see him bring in the Trinispheres vs. Miracles as I pegged it purely as combo-hate, but it locks them out of the game in combination with Ports, Wastelands, and the Choke.

The first game versus Miracles can take awhile. Counterbalance with 2 on top of the deck seems like the worst thing that can happen.

[Darkgobs]

I see it exclusively as a sideboard card that would be used in the same way Assault is. It's just also a touch more flexible thanks to its CMC. Against Miracles, I would rather other cards.

So you're saying that the replacement cards for Molten Vortex maindeck are better than Vortex. You are probably right. But still, as I said, I'd want to try it as a maindeck option, so...which cards would you guys take out for 2 Vortex MD? Because that was the main point of my post, and I would like to hear the opinion of others Land players about that! :wink:

[Whitefaces]

So you're saying that the replacement cards for Molten Vortex maindeck are better than Vortex. You are probably right. But still, as I said, I'd want to try it as a maindeck option, so...which cards would you guys take out for 2 Vortex MD? Because that was the main point of my post, and I would like to hear the opinion of others Land players about that! :wink:

I don't think it's better than either, but for testing purposes I can see a P Fire and Crop being reasonable cuts as the deck still functions the same with one less of each.

[DigitalPsycho]

what do you guys think about the new card Animist's Awakening?

http://mythicspoiler.com/ori/cards/animistsawakening.jpg

[Sibelius]

Seems like Miracles is actually a pretty good matchup for this deck if you play Trinisphere and Choke in the sideboard. I was watching David Long just man-handle a Miracles player the other day at the Premiere IQ with that combination. I was initially surprised to see him bring in the Trinispheres vs. Miracles as I pegged it purely as combo-hate, but it locks them out of the game in combination with Ports, Wastelands, and the Choke.

Could someone give me an idea of his plan with Trinisphere vs Miracles ?
I have tested it and found it wanting but if he is playing a different way I would be happy to know. Perhaps there is some video footage. I have found that it doesn't even come close to locking them out and I always wished it was a land or pfire i had boarded out for it.
Any sensible ideas much appreciated.

Cheers

[Chatto]

Could someone give me an idea of his plan with Trinisphere vs Miracles ?
I have tested it and found it wanting but if he is playing a different way I would be happy to know. Perhaps there is some video footage. I have found that it doesn't even come close to locking them out and I always wished it was a land or pfire i had boarded out for it.
Any sensible ideas much appreciated.

Cheers


I guess what MGB is forgetting to mention is a single Boseiju, which makes sense with 3sphere: everything costs more, but also counterfree castable.

[jhhdk]

what do you guys think about the new card Animist's Awakening?

http://mythicspoiler.com/ori/cards/animistsawakening.jpg

Looks like something to build around. Though not sure what rest of deck would look like. Not very helpful I know.

[barcode]

what do you guys think about the new card Animist's Awakening?

http://mythicspoiler.com/ori/cards/animistsawakening.jpg

Possible sideboard card (with Boseiju) for Miracles.

That said, I could easily see this card not being impactful enough, or there being other options.

[Ingo]

So you're saying that the replacement cards for Molten Vortex maindeck are better than Vortex. You are probably right. But still, as I said, I'd want to try it as a maindeck option, so...which cards would you guys take out for 2 Vortex MD? Because that was the main point of my post, and I would like to hear the opinion of others Land players about that! :wink:
Although I don't think it will be a viable option, you should test this card if you feel a vibe. Best decks are born out of thinking out of the box. I would cut a Punishing Fire for each Molten Vortex, as they somewhat occupy the same function, and mostly you only need 1 Punishing Fire which you can gamble for. Mind you that adding non-recurrable cards will undermine a smooth dredging plan, and this card might not be powerful enough to warrant that.

[Dice_Box]

Punishing Fire is better because you can Loam into it and use it. Vortex you cannot. This is not a replacement for Punishing, it's not as synergistic with the rest of the deck.

[barcode]

Punishing Fire is better because you can Loam into it and use it. Vortex you cannot. This is not a replacement for Punishing, it's not as synergistic with the rest of the deck.

This is my take on it as well. It's also another permanent to make victim to Abrupt Decay. Another thing that has poor synergies with Manabond.

[Chatto]

http://cdn.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Magmatic-Insight.png

This looks like fun, although we already have a draw-engine. Not sure we have room for it, or we even should make room for it.

[snorlaxcom]

There is already faithless looting.

[Chatto]

... Which doesn't see play in this deck. Point taken.

[lavafrogg]

The trinisphere against miracles plan just won me a round through multiple rest in peace. Has anyone else tested?

[Chatto]

The trinisphere against miracles plan just won me a round through multiple rest in peace. Has anyone else tested?

Nobody close to me plays Miracles, so no. Only experience I have are from tournaments. Could you give more details?

[lavafrogg]

What I learned tonight: Since we also bring in Boseju, all of our spells are uncounterable with a trinisphere in play so counterbalance can suck a big one. This lets you life from the loam every couple of turns to keep the action up.

With the deck playing 3 for ponders and brainstorms, our ports and wastes are suddenly much more effective with them having to keep at least 2W up with no non-basics to be able to swords to plowshares an end of turn Marit Lage. This is obviously increased with every port(staged port) nonbasic/wasteland in play.

These two changes really switch the tempo of the game to our favor once the trinisphere hits play.

The card is also in addition to chokes and krosan grips, with miracles offering very little clock, we have a great chance to just sideboard into a better prison deck and just lock them out of the game as they really can't let choke or trinisphere resolve.

[Chatto]

Just what I thought, thanks!

Followup-question: drop some SoR in favor of 3sphere? I believe Mr. Long already came to the same conclusion.

[Dice_Box]

Perhaps. It's easier to drop a Sphere on turn one, something I know has saved me against Storm a few times. That said, Storm is fast becoming an uncommon match so the change could prove to be beneficial. Especially since we often only get to see one hate piece before we start dredging.

So the balance becomes speed v effectiveness. In a blind meta, I think I would take effectiveness.

[snorlaxcom]

what do you guys think about the new card Animist's Awakening?

http://mythicspoiler.com/ori/cards/animistsawakening.jpg

I see it in Cloudpost before any other deck.

[Chatto]

Just got back from GP Lille. It was horrible... Extremely hot and no airco. Dropped going 2-3-1. Met with a lot of Surgical Extractions and opponents drawing very lucky. Still, had a blast with my mates!

[Dice_Box]

Just got back from GP Lille. It was horrible... Extremely hot and no airco. Dropped going 2-3-1. Met with a lot of Surgical Extractions and opponents drawing very lucky. Still, had a blast with my mates!
Pitty, would have been nice to see more Lands in the top 8. What was your list?

[Darkgobs]

Pitty, would have been nice to see more Lands in the top 8. What was your list?

Well, we've still got 1 Land in the Top8:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gplil15/top-8-decklists-2015-07-05

Congrats to Alex Mortimer who managed to reach that top8!

His list is totally standard, with Karakas main (Bojuka in the SB), and a 1-1 split for Thicket / Canopy. In the SB he's got a CotV x1, Sphere x4, trini x2, 1 choke, x1 boseiju, 1x needle, 1 x bojuka + 4 K-Grip.

[Chatto]

Pitty, would have been nice to see more Lands in the top 8. What was your list?

I saw a couple of more guys playing Lands, but they were in the same bracket as I was. My list:

Spells (16)
4 Crop Rotation.
4 Punishing Fire.
4 Life from the Loam.
4 Gamble.

Other Spells (10)
2 Manabond.
4 Exploration.
4 Mox Diamond.

Lands (34)
1 Forest.
1 Karakas.
1 Ghost Quarter.
1 Glacial Chasm.
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.
1 Verdant Catacombs.
1 Windswept Heath.
1 Wooded Foothills.
2 Tranquil Thicket.
2 Taiga.
3 Maze of Ith.
3 Dark Depths.
4 Rishadan Port.
4 Wasteland.
4 Thespian's Stage.
4 Grove of the Burnwillows.

Sideboard (15)
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All.
1 Seismic Assault.
1 Bojuka Bog.
2 Choke.
2 Trinisphere.
4 Sphere of Resistance.
4 Krosan Grip.

Did a Trail on friday. Won against Omnitell on the following plays:
G1: he bashes my head in.
G2: I have a early Sphere out, and wait untill he taps out. Then on my turn I cast Choke. He concedes soon afterwards.
G3: I put Trinisphere on the board of his SnT. I then K-Grip his Omniscience. He concedes immediately.

My second round was against Painter-Stone, which I lost just 'narrowly'.
G1: a quick Blood Moon makes me Crop Rotate into Dark Depths in response. I win.
G2 and 3: not much luck, as he has everything and combo's out.

The main event started with a draw against Espher Stoneblade, win against Nic Fit (Extracting my DD in G2!), loss against Miracles and Shardless BUG. After a No Show-opponent, I descide to play one more round, and faced a homebrew Eva Green with Vials. He also played Extraction. As it was extremely hot at the venue, and some of my mates also dropped, we went into town for beer and food. Just want to add a last remark: all of my opponente were really nice guys. Unfortunately for me, they were also extremely lucky (having the answers on the right moments, or -like my Russian opponent- digging with two Brainstorms into Liliana after he forced me to make Marit Lage)

[Skuttlespike]

Hi, Alex here

My list for Lille was all very standard. I think the chalice wasn't needed and should have been another choke. The only time it really came up was playing against storm for the win and in for top 8. I Gambled with 3 non-land worthless cards in hand and 2 untapped mana. It was either a sphere or the chalice and I took a minute or two to decide but went for the sphere. My thinking was that I was miles away from winning myself and I would need every crop rotation and gamble that came along so chalice would have ruined my game as much as my opponent.

The Sphere worked out nicely in that round. My opp had everything needed to win apart from 2 mana in his pool when he cast his infernal tutor.

I also highly recommend the Bosejiu. It was the first time I tried it and it allowed me to go 2-1 in my miracles matches, one of witch was the eventually win of the GP who I beat in round 6.

Worst moment of the week was my opponent blind flipping a Clique of Counter Balance when I cast a Choke. I lost that game.

[Ingo]

Hi, Alex here

My list for Lille was all very standard. I think the chalice wasn't needed and should have been another choke. The only time it really came up was playing against storm for the win and in for top 8. I Gambled with 3 non-land worthless cards in hand and 2 untapped mana. It was either a sphere or the chalice and I took a minute or two to decide but went for the sphere. My thinking was that I was miles away from winning myself and I would need every crop rotation and gamble that came along so chalice would have ruined my game as much as my opponent.

The Sphere worked out nicely in that round. My opp had everything needed to win apart from 2 mana in his pool when he cast his infernal tutor.

I also highly recommend the Bosejiu. It was the first time I tried it and it allowed me to go 2-1 in my miracles matches, one of witch was the eventually win of the GP who I beat in round 6.

Worst moment of the week was my opponent blind flipping a Clique of Counter Balance when I cast a Choke. I lost that game.

Congrats again, Alex.
Just one quick question (besides an appeal to post a report of your gp! ), why's the Karakas maindecked instead of Bog? Saw David Long do the same thing and couldn't figure out why.

[door]

Also returned from Lille. Won my second trial on Friday and went 6-3 on Saturday. Here's my little report:

the list:
Spells
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
4 Life From The Loam
4 Gamble
4 Crop Rotation
4 Punishing Fire
2 Manabond
1 Worm Harvest
1 Sylvan Library

Lands
1 Forest
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Grove Of The Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Rishadan Port
4 Thespians' Stage
2 Dark Depths
1 The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Maze Of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm

Sideboard
3 Sphere Of Resistance
2 Trinisphere
2 Choke
1 Primeval Titan
1 Dark Depths
4 Krosan Grip
2 Stranglehold

I found Stranglehold to be a nice addition against Miracles, because turning off their fetches is one of the strongest things that I can do in the matchup. I playtested a lot and feel that this list has a positive % after SB against Miracles, maybe it's the best configuration without splashing other colors and extensive changes to the deck. Strangelhold can be optionally sided in against other matchups, but it's not that important as in case of Miracles.

trial 1
Sneak Attack loose 1-2.
I win the first game after being attacked by Emrakul (used maze and then saced most of my permanents), recovered and destroyed his manabase. Game 2 I Krosan Grip 1 Blood Moon but later get 2 more moons and die before finding enough Krosan Grips. G3 mull to 5, get Blood Moon and die soon after.

trial 2
Miracles win 2-1
A very long game in which I tried everything, but my opp gathered SDT, Counterbalance and Force of Will + 2cc on his top. Even the worms could not pass. Games 2-3 sideboard worked perfectly and I won just in time before Sudden death.
1-0

Reanimator win 2-0
He had a slow hand in G1 and his manabase was destroyed before he tried to entomb anything. While sideboarding I almost did a terrible mistake, thinking he's on some delver deck, because in G1 I saw only U-sea, fetches, FoW, Daze, Brainstorm, Ponder, Thoughtseize and Swamp. If not that swamp I could have sided my crops and Karakas out, but realized that in time. G2 I keep a solid hand with Maze and Karakas and win without problems.
2-0

Esper blade win 1-0
Nothing special, I played my game, my opponent thought he played his. I don't risk and win the first game in extra turns.
3-0

Miracles with Mishra's factory win 2-0
In first game I manage to keep my opponent below 2 mana. In second game Sideboard worked properly.
4-0

Team America 2-1
First game goes without trouble. In second game I decide not to play around daze, as these are usually sided out. So my Punishing Fire targeting Deathrite gets dazed and eaten, after that I get Null Rod, wasteland and 2 flipping delvers. And I don't have time to recover. In game 3 I safely destroy all his manasources and win.
5-0, some BoM points as prizes which I use for Mishra's Toy Workshop that my friend dreamed of. Then Rich Hagon wants to interview me. It was shown on stream somewhere between the top8 games. Personally I don't like it, I was a bit confused by the situation and couldn't tell about all the things I like in the deck. It can be found here if you scroll to 3:52:20 http://www.twitch.tv/magic/v/6953315

Main Event. Played with the same 76.
Rounds 1 and 2: byes.

Round 3: Burn, loose 0-2.
"Win the byes only to face Burn" I thought and was really frustrated. Some time ago I decided to cut Zuran Orb, because there are so many Miracles around and who would play Burn these days... Should I say, that I loose without a chance?
2-1

Round 4: Death and Taxes, win 2-0.
No complications, just burned all his creatures.
3-1

Round 5: Infect, loose 0-2.
I have a slow start and keep alive only due to Maze of Ith. But he plays Vines of Vastwood during Main phase before I can find Chasm. Game 2 a very difficult decision: I have loam, Grove and exploration and play gamble for Punishing Fire. For 3 or 4 turns he is saving the elf by pumping it or Forcing the Fire. In the end I die to it. Should have searched for Chasm or Maze.
3-2

Round 6: Jund depths, win 2-0.
Classical "wins the one who has loam". I have exploration and start Loaming but he Crops for Bojuka and then finds Loam. I topdeck Sylvan Library and find 2 wastelands with which I cut his green sources. Than I find crop for Bojuka and the second Loam. G2 I find a good moment for cropping for Dark Depths in my turn when he taps for Abrupt Decaying my Mox without enough mana for his stage. A risky move, but he does not have an answer on his turn and I win.
4-2

Round 7: UWR Blade, win 2-1.
We have a 30 min game one where I can't resolve a single Exploration or Manabond and in the end die to TNN. G2 and 3 sideboard cards do not leave a chance for him. I win in extra turns.
5-2

Round 8: BUGw Shardless, loose 1-2.
First game was nothing special. In game two I mulligan twice into some shit, get my gamble FoWed, my loam Deathrited and my Punishing fires Maddling maged. Game 3 I decide to keep a hand with Maze, Grove, double waste, Port, fetch and gamble. He plays a t1 Shaman, I gamble for P-fire. Fire shaman, get FoW, then get Meddling Mage on Fire and eventually loose.
5-3

Round 9 my opponent does not show up. 6-3, which is 3-3 in games, not the result I wanted.

Overall I liked the list and I don't think I would change anything if I had a chance. My mistakes were my enemies. However the fact that they were much more complicated and difficult to realize than what was on camera at the top tables of day 2 is a bit disappointing me.

p.s. Was very happy to meet Rivfader!

[Skuttlespike]

Thanks, I'll try put together something but the heat made it very hard to remember things.

To be honest neither Karakas or Bog did much work over the weekend. Karakas was sided out almost every game and the Bog came in 2 or 3 times but never showed up.

The idea was there was a lot more omnitell about than graveyard decks. Karakas isn't the best but if they do just jam an Emrakul off a show and tell then it's great. I think maybe a Ghost Quarter may have been better in hindsight.

[Dice_Box]

Thanks, I'll try put together something but the heat made it very hard to remember things.

To be honest neither Karakas or Bog did much work over the weekend. Karakas was sided out almost every game and the Bog came in 2 or 3 times but never showed up.

The idea was there was a lot more omnitell about than graveyard decks. Karakas isn't the best but if they do just jam an Emrakul off a show and tell then it's great. I think maybe a Ghost Quarter may have been better in hindsight.

I run Qhost in what I think of as a floating slot useable by anything really. I like the card, I think it's strong and it fights for space with Karakas and Bog. All three can fit in the space and it is best suited to the Meta as to what you choose.

[Rivfader]

Also been to Lille, and got to meet door as he was friends with my round 2 adversary, nice to meet you too!
It would have been sweet to bump into Chatto as well, but in a 1500 people crowd, chances aren't that big...
The list I played was quite conventional, except I played Boseiju main, and an Iona in the side.

I played the friday trials, and these went great, as I got to kick some delver / stoneblade ass and dodged Miracles and Omnitell all day long.
My first trial took me to round 4 to be paired against the mirror. Nice Spanish adversary, but alas, in the end I lost 1-2.
Another trial took me to round3, where I played against 4cLoam of Christophe Alsheimer (who eventually top8ed).
I loose 1-2, and I feel like this is a bad matchup for lands (DRS, Knight, Swords, Chalice, Scooze, Lotv).

In contrast with the Trials, the GP itself went rather bad, as I was 0-3 after 3 rounds, ending all prospects of day 2.
Still I play the remaining rounds, and ended the day with 5-4.

For the interested, a little report.

Round1: RW Painter (1-2 loss)
Game 1 I have exploration, T2 token, and T3 kill. Already saw Goblin Welder and Spellskite, so I knew what I was up against. Round 1 Painter wtf ... , but at least won the first game.
Game 2 I loose to T1 Bloodmoon.
Game 3 is really going back and forth. He plays Bloodmoon, I Abrupt Decay it. I make Marit, he Oblivion Rings it. He recruits and plays Magus of the Moon which meets Punishing Fire. I make my second Marit, he lands Ensnaring Bridge.
I have the Krosan Grip for it, but lack one mana to cast it (due to making Marit twice). Three turns later he has his combo while I haven't found my mana.

Round2: Miracles (0-1 loss)
Game1 he plays T2 counterbalance and T3 top, I respond with cropping into Boseiju (maindecked it for the GP).
An early entreat pops two angels, but loam provides me with double maze to deal with it.
I get Marit, he gets Jace. Marit kills both chumpblocking angels over some rounds, while Jace keeps bouncing Marit.
In the end I Boseiju'd myself to 1 life when Jace ultimates me and I scoop.
Game2 I don't really remember, but we go to time with countertop on the table while Monastery Mentor left behind an unfavored boardstate.

Round3: 4cLoam? (1-2 loss)
Game1 starts with T1 chalice 1 with me on the draw (I hold exploration, gamble and crop)
However I draw into loam though and recover through a DRS, eventually Pfiring DRS and manadenialing my opponent.
Game2 starts ugly again with Lotv. I can't find Grip and get run over.
Game3 is blurry, but I think Scooze took the game.

Round 4: Miracles (2-0 win)
Game 1: This player feels less experienced than the previous, and I can manadenial him out with wastes and ports, idem during game 2 where Choke ends the game.

Round 5: D&T (2-1 win)
Game 1: He develops his board to quickly with Thalia slowing me down.
Game 2: My turn for manadenial and boarddeveloping through loam and exploration, and needing many Marits to win through multiple swords and vialed Flickerwisps.
Game 3: Here Tabernacle was crucial in holding back my opponent, until I gained control.

Round 6: Omnitell (1-2 loss)
This is a bit blurry, but I remember a sphere slowing him down and Krosan Gripping his Omniscience one game.

Round 7: RUG Delver (2-0 win)
Game1: finally a delver opponent! I take some quick beats and bolts, but eventually 2 mazes lock up the game before Marit pops up.
Game2: An accelerated loamengine with wasteland and Tabernacle leaves my opponent with no permanents.

Round 8: Shardless (2-0 win)
Game1: he has no answers to a relative fast token.
Game2: I don't see any hate and I make a token dodging Liliana and Wasteland for the kill.

Round 9: Omnitell (2-1 win)
Game1: On the play I have a superhand, involving manabond, both combopieces, loam and some lands. I combo out T2 and kill T3.
Game 2: I play a sphere that's countered, but I have another in my hand. My opponent plays a City of Traitors as his third land and plays S&T T3, so he has the mana to pay for Emrakul as well.
Game 3: I start with Iona in hand, which sees play through my opponents T2 S&T into Omniscience. He's on a two turn clock now to draw Emrakul, and he scoops.

So, after a long day, some honour restored in a 5-4 endresult, but ofcourse I am a bit disappointed.
In any case, congrats to Alex Mortimer for a sixth place!
And also congrats to Belgian Landsplayer Branco Neirynck, who took 38th place!

[Crimhead]

What I learned tonight: Since we also bring in Boseju, all of our spells are uncounterable with a trinisphere in play so counterbalance can suck a big one. This lets you life from the loam every couple of turns to keep the action up.

Worth noting Boseiju only works for instants and sorceries - it wont help Manabond or Exploration resolve.

Ive been thinking about a black splash for Chains Of Mephistopheles and Nethervoid in the board. With all the cantripsthese days Chains should be an all star. Nethervoid is a similar function to 3sphere, but even more stringent. It doesn't allow us to add colourless to a spells cost for Boseiju. But on the other hand, Boseiju lets us push a loan through without having to pay any extra!

I like a R/G build for these cards better than RUG because they are singletons which can't be recured. In R/G at least we can gamble for them.

[Dice_Box]

If your going to go down that path, I think you need to split your mana to 2 Taiga and a Bayou. I like an Urborg in the flex land slot but I am not sure I like Void due to its high mana cost.

Chains, I love chains. Not sure it's better than 3shpere though.

[Antonius]

Worth noting Boseiju only works for instants and sorceries - it wont help Manabond or Exploration resolve.

True, but I would still try and bluff it through at least once in each matchup, see if they're awake at the wheel. CB is still a may trigger, after all.

[Chatto]

Worth noting Boseiju only works for instants and sorceries - it wont help Manabond or Exploration resolve.

Ive been thinking about a black splash for Chains Of Mephistopheles and Nethervoid in the board. With all the cantripsthese days Chains should be an all star. Nethervoid is a similar function to 3sphere, but even more stringent. It doesn't allow us to add colourless to a spells cost for Boseiju. But on the other hand, Boseiju lets us push a loan through without having to pay any extra!

I like a R/G build for these cards better than RUG because they are singletons which can't be recured. In R/G at least we can gamble for them.

Void would be awesome! Not sure if it would work with the high cmc.

@ rivfader: were you the guy with a tattoo on your shoulder? I saw a Lands-player, thought about swinging by after my MU, but the Lands-player was gone.

[Rivfader]

@ rivfader: were you the guy with a tattoo on your shoulder? I saw a Lands-player, thought about swinging by after my MU, but the Lands-player was gone.

No, I'm tattoo-free, that wasn't me :) Next GP, we should arrange a players meet.
As you're from Nederland, you sometimes play in Belgium?

[Crimhead]

True, but I would still try and bluff it through at least once in each matchup, see if they're awake at the wheel. CB is still a may trigger, after all.
Good point - you can announce you're saying qwith Boseiju and they might just skip the trigger.

[Valtrix]

True, but I would still try and bluff it through at least once in each matchup, see if they're awake at the wheel. CB is still a may trigger, after all.

Worth noting Boseiju is only colorless mana--you can't even use it to cast exploration or manabond.

[Chatto]

No, I'm tattoo-free, that wasn't me :) Next GP, we should arrange a players meet.
As you're from Nederland, you sometimes play in Belgium?
Hahaha, ok! Well, I don't play that often (being a family-man and all), but my mates and I are always up for a little roadtrip! Perhaps, if I can get the band together :smile:

[Crimhead]

Worth noting Boseiju is only colorless mana--you can't even use it to cast exploration or manabond.

We were discussing the combination of Boseiju plus a Sphere of Resistance or a Trinisphere. extra costs can be played with colourless, so you can use Boseiju to cast Crop Rotation or Gamble. It doesn't work on enchantments, but a less alert opponent might not bother to counter the spell (including the optional CB trigger).

[Rook1e]

What are people's experience with a W splash for SB cards?

I have been thinkering with the idea of playing some Thalia's and Canonist's in the SB, maybe even Teeg and Pridemage, like I did when I played the more controlish version of lands. I was considering playing a Savannah in the Main and maybe even one in the board as well, but I am not sure what the right configuration would have to be - or if it is even worth it?

[barcode]

What are people's experience with a W splash for SB cards?

I have been thinkering with the idea of playing some Thalia's and Canonist's in the SB, maybe even Teeg and Pridemage, like I did when I played the more controlish version of lands. I was considering playing a Savannah in the Main and maybe even one in the board as well, but I am not sure what the right configuration would have to be - or if it is even worth it?

Certainly a viable plan. Personally I expect better mileage from disrupting artifacts like Chalice of the Void, Sphere of Resistance and Trinisphere.

[door]

What are people's experience with a W splash for SB cards?

I have been thinkering with the idea of playing some Thalia's and Canonist's in the SB, maybe even Teeg and Pridemage, like I did when I played the more controlish version of lands. I was considering playing a Savannah in the Main and maybe even one in the board as well, but I am not sure what the right configuration would have to be - or if it is even worth it?
I found it less effective than it seems. Storm players can side in Dread of night if they know you are on Thalia. Also sometimes you don't have white mana during turns 1-2, which sucks when you open with a good hand with hate. Beating provided by Thalia is not effective, because in 99% you will finish the game with a 20/20 token. And you can have only one Thalia on table, while spheres are cumulative.

[Crimhead]

What are people's experience with a W splash for SB cards?

I have been thinkering with the idea of playing some Thalia's and Canonist's in the SB, maybe even Teeg and Pridemage, like I did when I played the more controlish version of lands. I was considering playing a Savannah in the Main and maybe even one in the board as well, but I am not sure what the right configuration would have to be - or if it is even worth it?Canonist would be better in the control build becuase it can be recured with Academy Ruins. Those builds also used to side in Bobs, which gave more relevance to the extra 2/1 body you get with Thalia.

Come to think of it, bears are better in the RUGx builds anyway. R/G is better at making the 20/20, so a beater back up plan has less value. Without the (significant) potential to win with bears, Thalia is just a harder to cast Sphere which doesn't hose creature spells and is easier to remove. Even RUG lists have cut down on creatures in the board considerably since the new legend rule. Also R/G is more streamlined and thrives on having a faster clock, so diluting the main deck with a Savannah should hurt it more than the slow builds (and I certainly wouldn't devote precious SB space to colour fixing)!

It's worth testing I guess, and I should note I may be biast as hate bears really aren't my style.

[gigapatrick]

On the subject of hate bears:

While I agree that the white splash isn't worth it for Thalia or Canonist because Sphere effects without color requirements are better, I have been testing a Bayou main for four Dark Confidants in the side. If you run them with Chalice of the Void, you can board them in against both removal heavy decks with Swords and Lightning Bolt and against combo decks. The extra card seems way worth it in these matches. Board could look something like this:

4 Krosan Grip (maybe 3/1 split with Abrupt Decay, since you're splashing black, but you don't wanna overload on black cards for fear of missing mana requirements)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Dark Confidant
2 Trinisphere (in this Omnitell meta, though I'd switch them to Spheres in a Storm meta)
1 Dark Depths

Whenever your board in Chalice, the only viable option is to board out all one-mana spells besides Exploration, but that's okay if you have Dark Confidant because it can replace Gamble as your consistency card. I wouldn't board this way against Delver decks, and probably not Midrange since Chalice won't have as much of an effect against decks with loads of answers, but I definitely would board into Confidants and Chalices against combo and Miracles.

[Crimhead]

I have been testing a Bayou main for four Dark Confidants in the side. If you run them with Chalice of the Void, you can board them in against both removal heavy decks with Swords and Lightning Bolt and against combo decks. The extra card seems way worth it in these matches. Board could look something like this:

4 Krosan Grip (maybe 3/1 split with Abrupt Decay, since you're splashing black, but you don't wanna overload on black cards for fear of missing mana requirements)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Dark Confidant
2 Trinisphere (in this Omnitell meta, though I'd switch them to Spheres in a Storm meta)
1 Dark DepthsI don't think I could stand a black splash without including Chains Of Mephistopheles and/or Nethervoid. Losing Ghost Quarter and Karakas would be hard to swallow too. Keeping the board down to 15 is the hardest thing for me when I take Lands into battle.

Edot - unrelated, what are people's thoughts on the 4cc Loam MU? I think we'll be seeing a lot of this deck looking forward!

[barcode]

Edot - unrelated, what are people's thoughts on the 4cc Loam MU? I think we'll be seeing a lot of this deck looking forward!

I played the Devastating Dreams build of that deck. I think it's not too bad. If you can resolve an Exploration I think you are heavily favoured. I think you are also heavily favoured with a Mox Diamond in play.

The issue with the 4c loam decks is their creatures either die to Punishing Fire or are answered by Maze of Ith. Our loams are better since we have access to Exploration. Again, dealing with Chalice on turn 1 can be a problem.

[Chatto]

To all: can we please stop posting in that other thread? It's such a pathetic discussion. Some of those 'I'm better because we're REAL Lands-players' will stick to their guns, just let them. Our Ancestor is the same, we just run along different paths.

To me we're Brothers-in-Arms. It saddens me, and to a certain degree irritates me, that some of our Brothers find themselves to be better. I had a great respect for the most of them, but that respect rapidly fades away.

It's a shame really, but what can you do? Don't try to make a blind man see, or a deaf man hear: you will fail. Let's just let it be, and hope that our Brothers-in-Arms will just relax a bit.

(Not posting there, because of high emotions on their part)

[Dice_Box]

Fair, I should walk away. Thanks for the level headed post.

In other news, Origins became legal here today, grabbed my Vortex's. Should be fun. I have also been having issues with Reanimator locally too. The opponent always seems to have a strong enough hand to just squash me like a fly. He gets some nasty thing that bounces my shit when he casts a spell and locks me. The amount of times I have put the Witch down and just seen her flicked away... I can't beet that fucking deck.

[Sibelius]

Hey there
Just thought I would post my Lille list. Went 5-3 Day one and then in the Big Sunday Win duals event I went 6-1 for a Trop and Taiga.

Day one losses to
BUG Delver (round 1, I was overhot and overtired, others will be able to attest to that rooms joke temperature, I beat this guy the day before and was really pissed at my mistakes)
Merfolk (also played this guy in a trial the day before and lost as well. he knew what he was doing)
D and T (this guy had absolutely no idea. Luck played a large part in this loss)
TBH I was very disappointed in my performance and felt i really should have Day2. I felt my list was very good for the event.

BOM win a dual loss
Dredge. I played absolutely shockingly poorly. Didn't mulligan to a crop hand G2 and kept a solid hand that was fine against an unknown deck. But in game 2 I know he is on dredge. Just spectacularly bad from me.

List

4 Crop
4 Gamble
4 Pfire
4 Loam
4 Exploration
4 Mox Diamond
2 Manabond

4 Stage
4 Waste
4 Port
4 Grove
2 Taiga
1 Forest
3 Fetch (different names guys, play around Needle please)
3 Maze
3 Depths
1 Chasm
2 Thicket
1 Tabernacle
1 Karakas
1 Bog
1 Ghost Quarter

Side
4 Grip
4 Sphere of resistance
3 Trinisphere
3 Choke
1 Boseiju

Yep. That is 61 cards. For this tournament I felt I needed to hedge against the random dredge and reanimator opponents with both bog and Karakas main. It also frees up alot of very needed space in the side if we are to fully combat Miracles and Omnitell. the Bog is also randomly good against all those Gurmag DTT decks we predicted. The 8 tutors main should, in my view, mean it is not too much of a problem having 61 cards.

Sideboardwise I think this is pretty great. Bringing 14 cards in vs omni certainly helps. Trinisphere off Show and Tell followed up with a Grip or Choke does some spectacular work. With DTT still around after the ban announcement I would recommend this side to all.

Anyway hope this is interesting to someone, happy to answer any questions on the two days and my list and thoughts about matchups.

[Crimhead]

To all: can we please stop posting in that other thread? I play both versions, so I can't really do that! The decks have a lot in common, and sometimes the most effective way to describe or discuss something is to compare and contrast it to something else similar.



I will concede this deck is then harder of the two common lands decks to learn, I think Combo is harder to pilot though since its reduced late game options makes for catching up in the late game hard if you slip behind. You get punished harder if you fuck up with Combo Lands and most of your choices of compounded into the opening two turns. If you read the game state wrong, you will pay for it harder then RUG would because you don't have something like EE to save you.

This deck is better than the others? I would argue that they both offer a strength the other doesn't possess. Combo Lands is faster, it's tutors are cheaper, it can get Loam online faster and it is able to pull faster wins. It falls far short of RUGs catch up potential, it's somewhat inconsistent since it has to bet on Loaming what it needs and it has to build in redundancy because of that. It can play a totally Graveyard free game though. The flip side is that RUG can run one of silver bullets that just win games. It gets Zuran Orb, EE, artifact recursion and a much more dependable tutor in Intuition. It also gains a stronger inevitably factor as the game goes on. A basic and a Gofy are more of a headache for Combo then it is for RUG. Granted, Maze is in both decks so... Yea. Thanks - you've answered the question I've been trying to figure out how best to ask! I mostly play RUGx, and every time I try RG it feels like the deck is biting me in the ass. Obviously it's me, not the deck.

But you hit the nail on the head. Often my hand and board (and hence the game state) looks similar or identical with either deck, but with RG my deck doesn't "come to my rescue" like I'm expecting it to. This has caused me to mis-evaluate the situation I think, and I've paid the cost!

I still need to get the hang of RG, but at least you've helped me pinpoint precisely where I need to improve. I'd love to read a tutorial on RG specifically aimed at RUGx players, but this will be a big help when I reread, rewatch, and relisten various helpful resources.

I hope it's okay that I'm posting here about this. I'm not trying to compare the decks for any reason other than to help me become adept at both. I ported the quote from the other thread because it's currently a shit-show over there.



3 Fetch (different names guys, play around Needle please)
Is this necessary? We have three fetchable lands, so reusing fetches isn't such a big deal. Regardless, aren't we more likely to dredge the same one back than to draw another?

Besides, I'd almost rather bait the Needle! If it's on a fetch it's not on Stage. Similarly having multiples might bait an extraction against a weaker opponent.

[barcode]

3 Fetch (different names guys, play around Needle please)

If someone needles my Wooded Foothills I will chalk that up as a HUGE win for me. It means they wasted a card that should have been naming a card that did something.

[Jay_Gatz]

Its normally not the right play or even a good play but its not worth puting yourself in a situation where needle or surgical could end up hurting you when it is so easy to avoid.

[Crimhead]

Its normally not the right play or even a good play but its not worth puting yourself in a situation where needle or surgical could end up hurting you when it is so easy to avoid.Currently I run three or four with different names. But I wonder if we'd gain more by baiting these plays when they are wrong vs evading them when they are right?

[Chatto]

@ Crimhead: I was referring to the 'bitchfight'. For what it's worth, I also see a lot of common cards (but not neccesarily the same strategy), and, of course, if you are playing or have questions for a particular branche: by any means, post in the appropiate thread! But this thrashtalking is just not doing anyone good. My apologies if I wasn't clear enough. Everyone's who wants to discuss about Lands (whichever one you choose) is welcome!

[barcode]

Its normally not the right play or even a good play but its not worth puting yourself in a situation where needle or surgical could end up hurting you when it is so easy to avoid.

Again, if someone wants to use an entire card on my fetchlands - which aren't critical to my gameplan - I am okay with that.

Surgical my fetches? Great. That means they didn't use that card on my Punishing Fires, Loams, Stages or Dark Depths. Please, use your card on my noncritical pieces.

It's not that they won't "get me" but rather that it didn't do anything meaningful to the course of the game.

[Chatto]

Its normally not the right play or even a good play but its not worth puting yourself in a situation where needle or surgical could end up hurting you when it is so easy to avoid.

True, and one of the reasons I play three different fetchlands. But I never had them extracted: they always went for Stage or Depths. I honestly don't think fetchlands are the prime targets :smile:

[Dice_Box]

Thanks - you've answered the question I've been trying to figure out how best to ask!
Glad to help. Sadly I feel it is unlikely that too many people will be posting a cross over primer. I know the ins and outs of RUG because I face it frequently and had a short stint testing it before I settled on Combo. There is a guy locally who plays RUG, a guy that use to play Jund Depths and then myself. So everyone here knows how to play against Lands, regardless of the stripe in question.

My own personal experience with the Control build was mirrored in frustration. I like it, I have all the parts I need to build it, but I dislike the slowness of Intuition over Gamble as an engine. I do love the Artifact recurring the deck can do, as proven by my drive over and over to try and make it work here. (A lost cause I have now given up on.)

I do not want to talk for others here, not sure what pulls anyone to a given deck, but speed and graveyard independence are this decks selling points to me. That and watching one Ghost Quarter strip 3k off the other side of the table never gets old.


True, and one of the reasons I play three different fetchlands. But I never had them extracted: they always went for Stage or Depths. I honestly don't think fetchlands are the prime targets :smile:Agreed, I run a split anyway because it doesn't offer any downside to do so and it might offer some small upside in a game here or there. It might never come up, but it ain't hurting to plan for the moment it might have.

[Scott]

10th place (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=87956) at SCG Chicago tonight had singletons of Engineered Explosives, Academy Ruins, and Riftstone Portal in the main.

[Rivfader]

10th place (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=87956) at SCG Chicago tonight had singletons of Engineered Explosives, Academy Ruins, and Riftstone Portal in the main.

Second time he finishes with an unconventional build (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15970&iddeck=119055). For me it's especially the sideboard that puzzles me, with 3x Grafdiggers Cage and 4x Deathrite Shaman.

[horrain]

Hey All, I've recently completed trading out of modern into RG Combo Lands, utterly adore the deck. Thanks to everyone for the primer, it really is a great help when getting started.

To date I've only played in 2, 30 player store events, and a bunch online, I'm hovering around the 50% win rate, which I'm thrilled with, I'm sure it'll improve with time.

I'm having real issue seeing the value in Manabond, whenever I draw it, I either have a grip full of spells I want to cast, or a hand with no combo pieces, and no way to get Loam going. It feels far to high variance for a deck that wants to go late game, and destroy all the happiness in our opponents lives(for 45 minutes).

To this end, I've recently swap out the Manabonds for a pair of Worm Harvest, and have been loving it. Am curious to hear experienced players opinion on this change.

[Rivfader]

Hey Horrain, welcome to the thread.

Keep the manabonds maindecked, basically you want loam for the digging/carddraw, but you need exploration/manabond to translate it into boardadvantage (and manabond has the most powerful synergy with loam this deck has to offer). You don't have to let manabond trigger, so you can skip the ability a turn to play whatever nonrecurring spell you have left in hand. Especially game1, since those spells are all 1cc (crop rotation and gamble). Things are different game2, since you'll board in stuff you might want to sandbag in your hand, so depending on the matchup you board the manabonds out.

Just keep playing with them for a little longer, you'll get accustomed to play around it's drawback.

[Dice_Box]

Sounds like at the moment you have yet to get Mulliganing down. The amount of times I have had a Manabond on the table without a Loam active is rather low. See Manabond is like your Exploration 5 and 6. It's a necessary part of the deck because it let's you break stride and start abusing your gains. Having one if those two Enchantments on the table really does make a hell of a difference.

The reason you want 6 of them though is because they are secondary to the game plan. You really want Loam or Gamble first. A hand without one of those two cards needs to be strong in other effects to be worth keeping. (Say Grove and Fire against Elves) Having 6 of the Enchantments let's you try and draw into one since they really change the way the deck handles. Since you can't fish them out of the grave it's best to have a greater chance of drawing one in the opening set up turns.

The Wurms though are a fine panic button if Miracles is common in your Meta. Making threats they just can't stop over and over again is fun. They are good to have around but not worth you Bonds. Try the flex slot and sideboard if you like them.

[barcode]

I almost always sideboard out Manabond. In fact I'm down to only one in the starting 60 and I don't regret it.

Welcome to the world of RG Lands. :)

[Chatto]

Welcome, welcome! I'm with barcode: usually it's the first cut after g1. Had some awesome blow-outs through Manabond, so untill I find something better they stay MD. Worm Harvest seems a fun option though :smile:, but not sure if they are MD-material.

EDIT: probably what Dice_Box says; SB-material.

[Dice_Box]

I almost always sideboard out Manabond. In fact I'm down to only one in the starting 60 and I don't regret it.
I agree to this. I am siding them out a lot of the time but that is normally when I am also bringing in answers or effects that slow down the game. You do not have such a need to break parity with land drops once you have things like Choke or Spheres to do that effect for you. You can slow down the game and then play a more traditional style that matches the strengths of the deck. I find myself also against decks with heavy Grave hate (Like DnT) siding them out and the Canopy. In this case it is not to gain an advantage with secondary effects but to remove some of the harm that a card like RIP will do to the deck.

I feel like taking out Manabond game's two and three is more often than not the best idea, but that is normally because you are honing your spear point and making your decks thrust far more directed. Cutting the fat so to speak and gaining advantages in other places. It is not really necessary to play more than one land a turn once everything costs 3 and you can Wasteland over and over.

[Sibelius]

Although Manabond gets sided out most games it is great game one. It has the chance to give you the turn 2 kill which is very important against an unknown opponent. When you know what they are playing then your sideboard is often straight up better than the manabond. For example in theory you want them in the Omni matchup because of the possible velocity they give. However you have probably just brought in 12 + cards. Firstly you need space for these and secondly you don't want to discard them to manabond so the two disadvantages mean you cut two. It just feels like you don't need the card because of the number of times you are cutting it but it just doesnt interact well with most of you board.

[barcode]

I agree to this. I am siding them out a lot of the time but that is normally when I am also bringing in answers or effects that slow down the game. You do not have such a need to break parity with land drops once you have things like Choke or Spheres to do that effect for you. You can slow down the game and then play a more traditional style that matches the strengths of the deck. I find myself also against decks with heavy Grave hate (Like DnT) siding them out and the Canopy. In this case it is not to gain an advantage with secondary effects but to remove some of the harm that a card like RIP will do to the deck.

I feel like taking out Manabond game's two and three is more often than not the best idea, but that is normally because you are honing your spear point and making your decks thrust far more directed. Cutting the fat so to speak and gaining advantages in other places. It is not really necessary to play more than one land a turn once everything costs 3 and you can Wasteland over and over.

The reason I take Manabond out is because I want to hold my K-grips (and other sideboard cards) in my hand and not discard them. I'm okay with the game going long because I will make it go long with Spheres and Trinisphere.

There's nothing to be gained from going crazy in post-board games on turn 1 and risking a Loam getting extracted to a sideboard Surgical.

[horrain]

Thanks for the warm welcome :)


Sounds like at the moment you have yet to get Mulliganing down.

Totally agree, upon reflection, I think I've fallen into the trap of thinking "Cool, have Manabond, should be able to do something utterly broken now", and being disappointed when it blows up in my face, rather than "Cool, have a situational Exploration, should be able to do something utterly broken in a couple of turns".

Going to try running a top 8 list for a bit, see if I can get my head around when/what to mulligan.

[Chatto]

If I'm not mistaking the last three posts are agreeing about the same thing :laugh:

[GrimoirePath]

Played a small tourney this weekend.

Round 1 - Affinity

I win game one after a missed tabernacle trigger wipes his board. Game two my trinisphere holds him at bay, but his tormods crypts wipe my critical pieces. I finally make token but he has lots of dudes, and kills me. Game three i made a bad choice, and gambled for a tabernacle early. It played, but i should have grabbed the trinisphere. I lose.

Round 2 - I get the dang bye. Ugh. For fun I play against someone who isnt in the tourney who borrows a goblins deck. I win pretty handily, nothing to speak of.

Round 3 - RUG delver. Game one is brutal. I mull to five and he is quickly beating me up with Goyf and a flipped delver. However, when Im at three life, he has a waste and a tropical for lands, and I waste his trop, so he wastes my taiga. I crop rotate out the taiga for tabernacle and stabilize when he has no mana to pay for his dudes. I get combo pieces and am ready to generate token. He has one turn left, and for fucks sake, he lightning bolts me. Grrr!

Game two i dont remember other than he is able to counter all of my hate and outrace me.

Round 4 - Shardless BUG. These are looooong grindy games, and I take game one after establishing a strong board and plowing through with lage. Game two takes a while, as i keep beating up his mana while i trying to stabilize and get combo. He finally gets Lilliana on board and makes me sac lage, allowing him throu with Goyf. Game three is easier. He cant use deathrite to kill my loam (i found three pretty quickly) as Im killing his mana and he needs to eat lands to do anything. I boarded in Primetime and had him out on turn six or seven, grabbed combo, made Lage and smash.

I didnt have the points to play top four (damn bye) so the day ends pretty quickly (small tourney). Still fun though, and Im slowly getting better at figuring out what calls to make when. RG lands is no joke, offering a LOT of choices, meaning a lot of room for error.

Seeing that David Long took third in Richmond gives me hope.

[snorlaxcom]

Round 1 - Affinity

I win game one after a missed tabernacle trigger wipes his board. Game two my trinisphere holds him at bay, but his tormods crypts wipe my critical pieces. I finally make token but he has lots of dudes, and kills me. Game three i made a bad choice, and gambled for a tabernacle early. It played, but i should have grabbed the trinisphere. I lose.

Trinisphere is probably one of the worst cards vs affinity on the draw. Just side in 3-4 grips for equipment, needle, or crypt. They should have their hand on the table before sphere hits and you only slow down your window for onedrops and pfire to take over the game. Get chasm, gg.

[barcode]

Trinisphere is probably one of the worst cards vs affinity on the draw. Just side in 3-4 grips for equipment, needle, or crypt. They should have their hand on the table before sphere hits and you only slow down your window for onedrops and pfire to take over the game. Get chasm, gg.

Agreed with 3Sphere. I wouldn't bring it in at all, I think. The matchup is just too fast. You're better off with your Chalice of the Void and Krosan Grip. Everything dies to Punishing Fire or is dealt with by Maze of Ith. I don't see how this match is losable given tight play.

[GrimoirePath]

Thanks for the advice. After I play against a deck multiple times, i generally figure out what i need to do to consistently win. I just need that playtime against a lot of variant archetypes.

[Rivfader]

David Long makes so many top8's these days, it's almost becoming normal :), mayor props to him. I found his list with the 4 maindecked Depths very interesting, it seems that an emphasis on the combo serves Lands better than the value of a singleton Karakas or Bog in this meta. I do like it and will try this as well, although multiple Depths can clog things up.

[Dice_Box]

I guess it is dependent on what you expect to face. Since you can tutor for what you place in that slot, it can matter greatly what you use it for. Not questioning success though. That man knows what he is doing and I tip my hat to him.

[Chatto]

Quick question: how do people feel about boarding Exploration out against Miracles? Putting in multiple Sphere-effects, Choke and Boseiju.

[barcode]

Quick question: how do people feel about boarding Exploration out against Miracles? Putting in multiple Sphere-effects, Choke and Boseiju.

My plan for Miracles is:

+1 Boseiju
+1 Choke
+2 Trinisphere
+2 Chalice of the Void
+4 Krosan Grip

-3 Crop Rotation
-1 Manabond
-3 Maze of Ith
-1 Bojuka Bog
-1 Glacial Chasm
-1 Dark Depths

Exploration is very important to getting a mana advantage so you can cast Trinisphere and other hate cards. Later, being able to Loam back Stage and Depths and play both in the same turn is very powerful indeed.

[Chatto]

True, and I have always kept Exploration in, I was just wondering if there was another possibility. I have no intention to rush things and really slowrolling manadenial them sounded like a plausible alternative.

[Darkgobs]

My plan for Miracles is:

+1 Boseiju
+1 Choke
+2 Trinisphere
+2 Chalice of the Void
+4 Krosan Grip

-3 Crop Rotation
-1 Manabond
-3 Maze of Ith
-1 Bojuka Bog
-1 Glacial Chasm
-1 Dark Depths


Wenn I can, I try to keep Boujka in against Miracle too, especially if they are playing with Snappy. If not, it still makes our taxes effect + denial way more effective to avoid they to DTT, which help them a lot to find answer to our hate. But sure, I'd rather have 1 Trinisphere / Choke etc than 1 Bojuka if I had to choose.

But I wonder about the -1 DD. I'd rather -1 THicket than DD in such a M-U. (unless they are playing Surgical, which is quite unusual). Or -1 P.fire.

[barcode]

Wenn I can, I try to keep Boujka in against Miracle too, especially if they are playing with Snappy. If not, it still makes our taxes effect + denial way more effective to avoid they to DTT, which help them a lot to find answer to our hate. But sure, I'd rather have 1 Trinisphere / Choke etc than 1 Bojuka if I had to choose.

But I wonder about the -1 DD. I'd rather -1 THicket than DD in such a M-U. (unless they are playing Surgical, which is quite unusual). Or -1 P.fire.

Games are going to go long and I don't want depths jamming my hand up. One of the goals is to Chalice for 1 to stop Surgical Extraction (and thus protect Loams and other pieces). I have found that Punishing Fire is very important in the matchup since it's the way to answer Jace, Angels, Snapcaster and now Mentors. It could be right to only have 3, however! I actually have a test session in a few hours against Miracles and I'll try that one out. :)

I am pretty sure 2 depths after board is correct since the game will go long and I want to leverage Thicket and dredges to find them.

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

You guys think Animist's Awakening has a home here?

[barcode]

You guys think Animist's Awakening has a home here?

Read back a few pages. tl;dr - not impressed.

[UnsungHero]

Lands on Camera at SCGDC. Sadly its against Omni-Derp.